Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Wednesday, April 25, 2012, 23:04 (4573 days ago)

Dawkins big mouth matched with a thinking Shapiro:-http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/evolution-debate_b_1425133.html

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Thursday, April 26, 2012, 00:25 (4573 days ago) @ David Turell

Dawkins big mouth matched with a thinking Shapiro:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/evolution-debate_b_1425133.html-Here here!

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by David Turell @, Monday, May 21, 2012, 15:48 (4547 days ago) @ xeno6696

Epigenetics is rampant: 20% of mRNA is methylated:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120517131655.htm-This is how 300 human cell types work off the same code, and perhaps how evolution can change on a dime. Punctuated Equilibrium, anyone?

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by David Turell @, Thursday, May 24, 2012, 17:06 (4544 days ago) @ David Turell

RNA is much more than a coding messenger: it has important gene-control functions.-http://the-scientist.com/2012/05/01/the-sugar-lnc/

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by dhw, Thursday, April 26, 2012, 14:16 (4572 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Dawkins big mouth matched with a thinking Shapiro:-http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/evolution-debate_b_1425133.html-Thank you, David. What a great article! I couldn't help leaping out of my chair at the following quote:
 
4. Experimental research has discovered numerous cell-mediated processes of genome restructuring in all realms of life. These cellular natural genetic engineering capabilities replace accidental events as the real sources of heritable genome change. Since natural genetic engineering is subject to cell regulatory circuits and can be targeted within the genome, random copying errors can no longer be considered a basic feature of evolutionary change.
 
Could this possibly be the professional equivalent of my layman's "intelligent cell"?

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by David Turell @, Thursday, April 26, 2012, 18:25 (4572 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Dawkins big mouth matched with a thinking Shapiro:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/evolution-debate_b_1425133.html
&... 
> Thank you, David. What a great article! I couldn't help leaping out of my chair at the following quote:
> 
> 4. Experimental research has discovered numerous cell-mediated processes of genome restructuring in all realms of life. These cellular natural genetic engineering capabilities replace accidental events as the real sources of heritable genome change. Since natural genetic engineering is subject to cell regulatory circuits and can be targeted within the genome, random copying errors can no longer be considered a basic feature of evolutionary change.
> 
> Could this possibly be the professional equivalent of my layman's "intelligent cell"? -Yes, to an extent.

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, May 01, 2012, 03:40 (4568 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Dawkins big mouth matched with a thinking Shapiro:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/evolution-debate_b_1425133.html
&... 
> Thank you, David. What a great article! I couldn't help leaping out of my chair at the following quote:
> 
> 4. Experimental research has discovered numerous cell-mediated processes of genome restructuring in all realms of life. These cellular natural genetic engineering capabilities replace accidental events as the real sources of heritable genome change. Since natural genetic engineering is subject to cell regulatory circuits and can be targeted within the genome, random copying errors can no longer be considered a basic feature of evolutionary change.
> 
> Could this possibly be the professional equivalent of my layman's "intelligent cell"?-David might be a better judge here, but in essence I'd say yes. But I stress: What's the yardstick for intelligence?

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by David Turell @, Tuesday, May 01, 2012, 15:37 (4567 days ago) @ xeno6696

DAVID: Dawkins big mouth matched with a thinking Shapiro:
> > 
> > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/evolution-debate_b_1425133.html
&... > 
> > Thank you, David. What a great article! I couldn't help leaping out of my chair at the following quote:
> > 
> > 4. Experimental research has discovered numerous cell-mediated processes of genome restructuring in all realms of life. These cellular natural genetic engineering capabilities replace accidental events as the real sources of heritable genome change. Since natural genetic engineering is subject to cell regulatory circuits and can be targeted within the genome, random copying errors can no longer be considered a basic feature of evolutionary change.
> > 
> > Could this possibly be the professional equivalent of my layman's "intelligent cell"?
> 
> David might be a better judge here, but in essence I'd say yes. But I stress: What's the yardstick for intelligence?-The complexity of the life-style of the organism, or of the life-cycle. My thought is that evolution creates living 'types' but those types modify how they live and survive by self-modification through epigenetics.

Shapiro,evolution, bad childhood and epigenetic changes

by David Turell @, Saturday, May 12, 2012, 23:14 (4556 days ago) @ David Turell

Late research on methylation changing gene expression after a bad childhood; don't think this would be a evolutionary change, but the epigenetic implications are interesting:-http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304363104577390462225369908.html?KEYWORDS=Matt+Ridley

Shapiro,evolution, bad childhood and epigenetic changes

by dhw, Monday, May 14, 2012, 11:51 (4554 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Late research on methylation changing gene expression after a bad childhood; don't think this would be an evolutionary change, but the epigenetic implications are interesting:-http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304363104577390462225369908.html?KEYWORDS...-It's not just the epigenetic implications that are interesting. The article contains the following extremely complex and to me disturbing idea which has major philosophical and ethical implications:
 
"To have your fate determined by your early experiences is not much different from having it determined by your genes, and when experience acts by changing genes, the distinction vanishes."-It seems to me that there is a missing factor here. A bad childhood leaves its scars on the mind, and it's common knowledge that just as the body may influence the mind, the mind can also influence the body. If a traumatic experience changes the genes, that does not mean that the genes have caused the experience! We simply don't know the extent to which our genes determine our RESPONSE to experiences, just as we don't know the extent to which the "will" is free, but a physical trauma (experience) may be cured by physical treatment, and a mental trauma (experience) may be cured by mental treatment ... hence psychiatry. Blurring the distinction suggests that the mind is indeed indistinguishable from the body, i.e. that your "fate" does depend on your genetic makeup. This is made evident by the next paragraph:-"Yet fortunately, given medical advances, genetic determinism is not necessarily a life sentence, as those who wear glasses for shortsightedness or take growth hormone for growth problems can attest. The same will almost certainly be true for epigenetic determinism: Understanding the mechanism should bring forward possible cures."-Of course we don't understand the mechanism, but the basic premise seems to be that by removing the distinction between body and mind, and between genes and experience, we can change the former and eliminate the effects of the latter. And I'm sure we can. This is one of the preconditions for Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, in which the authorities use biological engineering and psychotropic drugs to determine people's behaviour. That's why, in spite of the obvious potential benefits, I find this train of thought disturbing.

Shapiro,evolution, bad childhood and epigenetic changes

by David Turell @, Monday, May 14, 2012, 14:22 (4554 days ago) @ dhw

"Yet fortunately, given medical advances, genetic determinism is not necessarily a life sentence, as those who wear glasses for shortsightedness or take growth hormone for growth problems can attest. The same will almost certainly be true for epigenetic determinism: Understanding the mechanism should bring forward possible cures."
> 
> Of course we don't understand the mechanism, but the basic premise seems to be that by removing the distinction between body and mind, and between genes and experience, we can change the former and eliminate the effects of the latter. And I'm sure we can. This is one of the preconditions for Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, in which the authorities use biological engineering and psychotropic drugs to determine people's behaviour. That's why, in spite of the obvious potential benefits, I find this train of thought disturbing.-Don't worry. Science writers like to pontificate about future results as it heightens the importance of their report. Our mind is independent as consciousness is and should be. It is influenced by psychiatric treatment without drugs. If a democracy is maintained Huxley doesn't work.

Shapiro,evolution, bad childhood and epigenetic changes

by dhw, Tuesday, May 15, 2012, 16:36 (4553 days ago) @ David Turell

I found this report disturbing, in so far as it appeared to pave the way for Huxley's Brave New World, in which biological engineering and psychotropic drugs are used to determine people's behaviour.-DAVID: Don't worry. Science writers like to pontificate about future results as it heightens the importance of their report. Our mind is independent as consciousness is and should be. It is influenced by psychiatric treatment without drugs. If a democracy is maintained Huxley doesn't work.-Your last comment takes us off in a slightly different direction, but is an important subject in itself. It may be that Huxley's vision can be prevented by a functioning democracy, but we should not be complacent. Already over here and no doubt in USA as well, technology has eroded vast areas of privacy in a manner foreseen by George Orwell in 1984. The "hacking" scandal which is in the process of destroying Rupert Murdoch's empire may be the tip of the iceberg. We know that virtually all our electronic forms of communication can be monitored, and even now we have no idea to what extent we are under surveillance, either by the authorities or by crooks. The present UK government is actually seeking to increase its snooping rights, while at the same time ... just like its predecessors ... defying the Freedom of Information Act on the pretext that revealing the truth about some of its activities and commissioned reports would be against the national interest or would inhibit its advisers from telling them what they really think. Authorities can play with human minds even in a democracy, as is only too obvious from certain thriving religious communities in our own western society ... and I don't just mean Muslim. Genetic engineering has crept into agriculture, and the article you referred us to clearly points to it being used in medicine. And why not, if it cures sickness? But where will the limits be drawn, and by whom? Just how much do we know about the actions of people in power, even in our democracy? Importantly, we have a free press, but that free press can itself be corrupt. Three cheers for The Guardian, but no cheers for The News of the World whose criminal activities it exposed. There you have the two sides of the coin ... good media exposing bad. My point is that our democracy is in the hands of politicians, the media, big business and certain other authorities (e.g. the military, the police), not one of whom can be trusted. And we have not even mentioned the vast areas of the world that are governed by undemocratic regimes! Huxley's vision is not just a warning to the west ... it applies to the human race as a whole. We already have brainwashed people prepared to murder and die for the cause drummed into them. It's only a small step, then, for the authorities to dispense with drumming and to use a scalpel, needle or pill instead.
 
I agree with you that democracy is our best if not our only protection against the sort of power envisaged by writers like Orwell and Huxley. That is why I'm concerned at the manner in which your country's democracy and mine is being increasingly and subversively undermined.

Shapiro,evolution, bad childhood and epigenetic changes

by BBella @, Tuesday, May 15, 2012, 20:07 (4553 days ago) @ dhw

It may be that Huxley's vision can be prevented by a functioning democracy, but we should not be complacent. Already over here and no doubt in USA as well, technology has eroded vast areas of privacy in a manner foreseen by George Orwell in 1984. -I just happened to watch George Orwell's 1984 this last weekend for the first time...freaky!!! Definitely shows, as a conscious society, where we don't want to go!-These projections of thoughts and ideas of authors and movie makers reminds me of the worm holes my mind takes off on with certain thoughts and ideas. It's like once you see where a thought, decision, or certain mind set could take you, whether it be societal or personal, it's like we can then make conscious decisions to avoid that path. Sometimes I believe that's what movies and stories provide us as a human race - a peer down the rabbit hole we don't want to take. Our "mind" films were probably meant to do the same, among other things..learning from past mistakes, etc. We've created this ability to project the path certain mind sets for the survival of our species. Of course, this ability can be used for good or for bad...like with most all things. -bb

Shapiro,evolution, bad childhood and epigenetic changes

by dhw, Wednesday, May 16, 2012, 16:19 (4552 days ago) @ BBella

Dhw: It may be that Huxley's vision can be prevented by a functioning democracy, but we should not be complacent. Already over here and no doubt in USA as well, technology has eroded vast areas of privacy in a manner foreseen by George Orwell in 1984. -BBELLA: I just happened to watch George Orwell's 1984 this last weekend for the first time...freaky!!! Definitely shows, as a conscious society, where we don't want to go!
These projections of thoughts and ideas of authors and movie makers reminds me of the worm holes my mind takes off on with certain thoughts and ideas. It's like once you see where a thought, decision, or certain mind set could take you, whether it be societal or personal, it's like we can then make conscious decisions to avoid that path. Sometimes I believe that's what movies and stories provide us as a human race - a peer down the rabbit hole we don't want to take. Our "mind" films were probably meant to do the same, among other things...learning from past mistakes, etc. We've created this ability to project the path certain mind sets for the survival of our species. Of course, this ability can be used for good or for bad...like with most all things.
 
This is a very interesting observation. Novels, plays, films certainly do provide us with all kinds of experiences we couldn't otherwise have. Sometimes they're warnings, sometimes they're insights, sometimes they're new perspectives, and sometimes they're sheer fun. My late brother, who was an anthropologist, went through a phase in which he had no time for fiction: real life was what counted. But in his last years, he found himself writing a novel, simply because there are territories you can explore through the imagination that you can't get to in real life. Literature can be a wonderful source of empathy as well as a guide to "rabbit holes" we should avoid, but I guess that depends in the first place on the nature of the writer and/or reader!

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by dhw, Wednesday, May 02, 2012, 10:27 (4566 days ago) @ xeno6696

SHAPIRO: 4. Experimental research has discovered numerous cell-mediated processes of genome restructuring in all realms of life. These cellular natural genetic engineering capabilities replace accidental events as the real sources of heritable genome change. Since natural genetic engineering is subject to cell regulatory circuits and can be targeted within the genome, random copying errors can no longer be considered a basic feature of evolutionary change.-Dhw: Could this possibly be the professional equivalent of my layman's "intelligent cell"?-MATT: David might be a better judge here, but in essence I'd say yes. But I stress: What's the yardstick for intelligence?-In this context, I generally put the word in inverted commas, precisely because I can't answer your question. The fact that in essence you and David ("to an extent") agree gives us a starting-point. I would suggest that cells might work in much the same way as, say, bees and ants. Each evolutionary innovation would have been the result of individual cells getting together and devising the new function. (Just as there must once upon a time have been a first nest and a first hill and a first division of labour.) What degree of consciousness is involved I have no idea, but since we know that other forms of life have the ability to reason ... even if this is a long way behind our own ... I would hesitate to say that all cells operate purely on "automatic pilot". There is no escaping the fact that innovation happens. Nor can we escape the fact that cells co-operate ... our organs are living proof of that. I still can't provide a yardstick, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that innovation involves deliberate engineering of some kind, as opposed to Darwin's sheer chance. That does not, of course, explain the origin of the engineering mechanism, which is perhaps David's trump card. But even when I put on my atheist hat, I still have difficulty accepting the random mutation theory, whereas a self-organizing and even inventive cellular mechanism that comes up with the senses, digestive systems, reproductive systems, flight etc., as and when the environment allows or even demands them...yes, that sounds far more feasible to me.-Thank you for the post on plants. It figures that there would be a similar process of "intelligent" cooperation, though I'd have expected a lesser degree of sentience. I guess it is all a matter of degree: plants at the bottom of the scale, humans at the top.

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by David Turell @, Wednesday, May 02, 2012, 16:25 (4566 days ago) @ dhw

But even when I put on my atheist hat, I still have difficulty accepting the random mutation theory, whereas a self-organizing and even inventive cellular mechanism that comes up with the senses, digestive systems, reproductive systems, flight etc., as and when the environment allows or even demands them...yes, that sounds far more feasible to me.-
Sounds like you are coming close to jumping off the fence!

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by David Turell @, Monday, May 07, 2012, 19:07 (4561 days ago) @ David Turell

Positive review of Shapiro and his new vision of evolution. Cells do know what they are doing. Natural selection takes a back seat.-http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution/from-the-best-schools-seeing-past-darwin-ii-james-a-shapiro/

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by dhw, Tuesday, May 08, 2012, 12:40 (4560 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Positive review of Shapiro and his new vision of evolution. Cells do know what they are doing. Natural selection takes a back seat.-http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution/from-the-best-schools-seeing-past-darwin-ii-ja...-So perhaps the "intelligent cell" idea as not as wacky as it seemed!

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by David Turell @, Tuesday, May 08, 2012, 14:54 (4560 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Positive review of Shapiro and his new vision of evolution. Cells do know what they are doing. Natural selection takes a back seat.
> 
> http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution/from-the-best-schools-seeing-past-darwin-ii-ja... 
> So perhaps the "intelligent cell" idea as not as wacky as it seemed!-Not wacky:-http://jb.asm.org/content/182/11/2993.full-Don't struggle through the whole paper. Click on conclusions tab. Evolution is self-directed by the cells. Darwinists are obviously joining Shapiro

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by David Turell @, Thursday, May 17, 2012, 14:38 (4551 days ago) @ dhw

SHAPIRO: 4. Experimental research has discovered numerous cell-mediated processes of genome restructuring in all realms of life. -> Thank you for the post on plants. It figures that there would be a similar process of "intelligent" cooperation, though I'd have expected a lesser degree of sentience. I guess it is all a matter of degree: plants at the bottom of the scale, humans at the top.-How about bacterial colonies learning to cooperate? No trace of Darwin here:--http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120515203011.htm

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by dhw, Friday, May 18, 2012, 08:28 (4550 days ago) @ David Turell

SHAPIRO: 4. Experimental research has discovered numerous cell-mediated processes of genome restructuring in all realms of life.
 
Dhw: Thank you for the post on plants. It figures that there would be a similar process of "intelligent" cooperation, though I'd have expected a lesser degree of sentience. I guess it is all a matter of degree: plants at the bottom of the scale, humans at the top.-The "listening" rice plants in your latest post under "Nature's Wonders" are yet another example.-DAVID: How about bacterial colonies learning to cooperate? No trace of Darwin here:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120515203011.htm-But clear traces of Margulis. And cooperation of this nature requires some sort of awareness. These are not senseless machines; decisions are being made all the time, and if they are successful, the organisms survive and flourish (by Darwinian Natural Selection).

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by David Turell @, Friday, May 18, 2012, 21:51 (4550 days ago) @ dhw

SHAPIRO: 4. Experimental research has discovered numerous cell-mediated processes of genome restructuring in all realms of life.-And now RNA has five codes: Methlyation for gene expression modification by RNA:-
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120517131655.htm

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by dhw, Sunday, May 20, 2012, 19:12 (4548 days ago) @ dhw

Another example of an extraordinary decision - this time from Japan. Penguin 337, just 2 ft tall, escaped from Tokyo Sea Life Park by scaling a 13 foot wall and squeezing through a barbed wire fence. The bird has been spotted in Tokyo Bay, presumably enjoying its freedom.-Imagine the effort required, using flippers to climb a wall 6 times its height, and then avoiding the barbs of the fence. What was going on in No. 337's mind? This, I suggest, is the sort of enterprising, original thinking that not only sets individuals apart from others in their species, but may also help to explain how individual cell communities come up with innovations to counter or exploit environmental conditions. There's a lot of intelligence out there!

Shapiro on Dawkins and evolution

by David Turell @, Sunday, May 20, 2012, 21:48 (4548 days ago) @ dhw

Another example of an extraordinary decision - this time from Japan. Penguin 337, just 2 ft tall, escaped from Tokyo Sea Life Park by scaling a 13 foot wall and squeezing through a barbed wire fence. The bird has been spotted in Tokyo Bay, presumably enjoying its freedom.
> 
> Imagine the effort required, using flippers to climb a wall 6 times its height, and then avoiding the barbs of the fence. What was going on in No. 337's mind? This, I suggest, is the sort of enterprising, original thinking that not only sets individuals apart from others in their species, but may also help to explain how individual cell communities come up with innovations to counter or exploit environmental conditions. There's a lot of intelligence out there!-Proves flying isn't anything important

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