BBella: Without quoting your message let me answer in this way. There are 92 basic elements in the universe and they are everywhere, especially carbon. For example in our solar system the Earth has iron, but Jupiter does not. The elements after helium, hydrogen and lithium were all formed in the hot high pressure furnace of stars, by combination and growing in size as added together, and were scattered when the stars grew old and exploded. Carbon atoms can be strung together in long chains and various loops. For example, six carbons in a loop make benzene. Silicon has this same property, but is not as versatile as carbon in making molecules compatable with life as we know it. One DNA molecule is 6 feet long, if stretched out. As you know DNA and RNA are codes for making protein and for telling genes what to do. I think you understand now that DNA/RNA patterns on Earth are peculiar to Earth. Foreign DNA will stand out like a sore thumb. If life is present elsewhere based on our knowledge of the 92 elements, it must be carbon based as it is here. - The universe is 13.7 billion years old. Our sun is 5 billion years old and the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. Life appeared on Earth at about 3.6 billion years ago. With the right conditions on a planet life appears rather quickly. Considering the size of the universe, 100 billion galaxies, each with 100 billion stars carbon-based life should be out there, but it takes a very special planet to have life. Considering all the special things about Earth, the number will be quite small. - Does that help?

Possibilities for life based on other chain-molecules are surveyed on this wikipedia page: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_biochemistry - The science section is followed by a comprehensive list of examples from science fiction. - It seems that carbon and oxygen based life is the most likely, simply because these elements are the most common and most stable throughout the universe. - There are also speculations about non-molecular life forms, such as based on electromagnetic connections within plasma. - The possibilities for imaginative fiction are endless.

David has drawn our attention to an article in The Scientist concerning a giant marine virus. Quite apart from the extraordinary nature of these viruses and their effect on life, I was struck by the following sentence:-"Once thought not to exist in marine environments, scientists now realize that there are some 50 million viruses in every milliliter of seawater."-Oops! Slight oversight! So what else have they missed/are they missing? And what will they have discovered a hundred years from now? People can only base their beliefs on what they know today, but if you add the unsolved mysteries (e.g. origin of the universe and life, nature of consciousness) to current 'truths' that may well turn out to be false (e.g. aspects of evolution, the material make-up and history of the universe), it's amazing that people can commit themselves to any sort of definitive ...ism. When they discover that dark energy is in fact BBella-energy, will she get her Nobel Prize?

David, How can we know for sure universe had a finite beginning, as in, nothing was before it? Can't universe be a product of what was before, whatever that was, if indeed universe had a 'beginning?' > 
 
 
> David, you wrote: "certainly, an eternal something gets rid of the possibility of a creation." Can you explain what this sentence means? - BBella: Perhaps I was not clear enough in my preceding sentences. there are only two possibilities before our universe appeared: either there was something or there was nothing. Leibnitz raised the question almost four centuries ago: "why is there something rather than nothing?" - George wants our universe to appear out of a quantum fluctuation, that is from a pre-existing space like the one in our universe that has 'virtual' quanta popping in and out of existence. George must assume or claim that such a space always existed, and therefore is eternal. But if there was an absolute void, no quanta at all to pop in and out, then there was nothing, the other possibility. - I happen to accept the Greek philosophy that there has to be a 'first cause' to give us something. You really cannot get something from nothing. Goerge will claim that the first cause is an eternal space with quanta, no willed creation. From, my research I think first cause is a universal intellect,called God by religions, and He created our universe from nothing, from an absolute void. That is what I meant in the sentence you questioned.

I just go by the evidence. If you can come up with evidence of such beings I'm prepared to accept your hypothesis. Otherwise it is no better than fiction. - What is it that you have evidence for that you have the most faith, or belief in? Hundreds of thousands of eye witness accounts of seeing or experiencing other worldly beings over thousands of years would seem somewhat a kind of evidence that should account for something other than science fiction, even if these 'beings' are no more than a figment of their imaginations, it is something! Sometimes many people witness the same phenomenon all at the same time. If so many 'reliable' scientist agree they see or believe the same thing is so, how is that more reliable than many thousands of people that see the same thing and believe it is so? Isn't it just a matter of choice of 'who's' accounts we choose to rely on for what we believe?

But that is not what the abiogenists are out to prove, since as a statement it is too self-evident to require proof. The emphasis ... but do correct me if I'm wrong ... is on the theory that the elements needed for life (and reproduction) can come together spontaneously, i.e. without any guiding intelligence. - There is more to the argument than that. The Urey/Miller experiment of 60 or so years ago shot an electric spark in a bottle with some inorganic compounds in liquid water and a presumed atmosphere (that was shown wrong later on), and produced some amino acids and other organic compounds that produced a tarry gunk that was somewhat self-destuctive. The amino acids that are needed for life did not appear. No one has tried to repeat this with alternative atmospheres to my knowledge, because the result was such a dead end. - The Murchison meteor is the largest one to arrive on Earth, and is very well studied. Let's make the presumption, which is pretty close to true, that the universe is really uniform in the way the 92 elements are spread out and the mechanics of star formation and explosion are also uniform. All of the parts of the meteor that broke up in the atmosphere weighed about 100 kilo. The meteor came from the asteroid belt and didn't get captured by Jupiter or Saturn as it passed by and got to us. J&S capture most of them. - The Murchison does not carry the proper amino acids necessary for life as we know it, and the ones that are necessary (if I remember, 6 out of 20) are 7% (roughly) more left-handed than right-handed, not 100% left-handed, which is required for manufacture of our kind of life. Based on the Murchison, we don't know where the amino acids required for life came from here on Earth, since we do theorize that meteors and asteroids bombarded Earth early on, and stars exploded to send all the elements, so that early Earth (before life) had whatever inorganic matter and 'some' inappropriate organic matter present when life somehow started. After the bombardment, some organic compound manufacture had to occur on Earth before life could start spontaneously. The necessary left-handed amino acids and right-handed nucleotides (for RNA and perhaps later DNA) had to be present somehow for spontaneity to occur. - And finally, as I have explained before, organic compound manufacture of compounds necessary for life require processes with feedback loops to control the outcomes to get the right results, the right amounts of concentrations, the right shapes since carbon can make strings, loops of various sizes, etc. It is like the chicken and the egg: how do feedback loop controls get started from scratch? Some amino acids happen to bump together and react to join forces? The production of active protein molecules requie alot more than that. - My conclusion: either some very simple organic molecules got together and luckily over 6-700 million years by lots of undirected banging together, made a simple organism to start life, with stupendous odds against that eventuality, or the start of life was directed. Those are the only two possibilites: Take your choice.

Reports of such [unexplained] phenomena go back over many centuries and through all cultures. Either every single eyewitness account is a matter of delusion/ fraud/ misinterpretation etc., or there is something beyond the natural world as we know it. Science is only equipped to deal with the latter, and so science can only help us by providing natural explanations for these apparently non-natural phenomena. Unless or until it does so, dismissal can only be based on prejudice. - If it is ok, I will answer dhw in two parts. My own experiences may take some thought to recount. - I want to add here about your first part, that altho unexplained phenomena may be a mystery to science as well as most layman, there have been many who claim to not only explain these mysteries, they understand their workings, and many are even able to harness and/or engage these 'so called' phenomena as well. And, as has been mentioned in the guide, just because something is unknown to science does not mean it is unknown to all, or is even "beyond the natural world." I do believe most scientist are correct in believing that everything has a natural explanation, even if they/we don't know what that explanation is. I would even go as far to say that 'everything' is a natural OCCURANCE, even that which man has a hand in CAUSING TO OCCUR. - Man manipulating his surroundings, seen or unseen, for his or others benefit, seems no different to me than a chimp using a stick to get the ants he is after, or a plant calling 'helpers' from other species to stop the destruction of itself. If there are 'others' veiwing our existence from a more advanced society, as we view these occurances, wouldn't it be the way they would see us, just as our viewing the chimp and the stick? Man using what is available for mans own benefit? So, all things considered, isn't EVERYTHING just a natural occurance, just not everything known how it is so (to all)?

You were kind enough to tell us the story of your own out-of-body experience, and although I don't want to pressurize you, I for one would be very interested to hear more. Perhaps there are also other people out there who might like to recount their experiences. - Thank you dhw for you patience...I have taken the time and chosen from the many experiences my family and I have had and put them in two parts. - This first post is my experiences and the second will be my family's experiences. I will try and recount them according to a time line to the best of my remembrance.
 
1. My earliest experience with anything considered unexplained or paranormal (outside of myself, explained in #4) happened one night in the early 70's when I was around 17. I awakened startled from a sound sleep with the feeling of a presence in the room. I turned to look beside my bed and I saw a very dark tall figure standing beside my bed seeming to be slightly bent down over me. The figure was illuminated by the moonlight coming thru the window behind it. I immediately turned on the light and there was no one there and nothing to explain the dark figure as my door and windows in the room were all locked.
 
2. In the mid 80's I was walking my younger brother ( about 18) out onto the deck of my house to say goodnight just after mid-night and, as we were talking, I looked up to admire the beautiful clear night sky, and almost directly above my head there was, what appeared to be, stars moving very slowly in a straight line from east to west. There had to be many hundreds if not thousands as they were as far as the eye could see from east to west ( I live in the deep woods in the foothills surrounded by pines and large trees on top of a hill, so couldn't see either horizons). The "stars" moved with no sound and were about the size of small, not tiny, stars. We watched for about 15 min or so until my bro decided to go ahead and leave. He said he thought they were probably something to do with the military. But, to this day, I still wonder why we didn't both wait longer to see if the line ended and, wonder too, why we weren't more curious about such a phenomenon? I don't even think we had ever told anyone till years later. I can't even imagine how the military could be that far up with that many flying vehicles that close together with no sound in absolute perfect formation as if someone had drawn dot to dots across the sky. 
 
3. When I became very ill in the late 90's early 00's, I would often wake up hearing and seeing (from the glow of the moonlight) someone open the door and come in my room or someone standing beside me, but there was never anyone there when I would turn the light on or call out to them. This seemed to happen several times a month at least. I was on no meds or sleeping pills, as nothing given me could take even the slightest amount of pain away and, I've rarely ever had any problems sleeping altho I've always been a light sleeper. But, one night, I awoke to a presence in the room and looked and saw a tall being standing at the foot of my bed. It was dressed in gold armor from head to toe which was made up of small square plates and some seemed to have writings or symbols on them, altho I'm not sure, could have been indention's. Altho there was no light in the room at all, I could see it as plainly as if the room was lit. It also had a helmet/headdress and a staff and just stood there not moving or say anything, altho, the gold did seem to shimmer as if it were reflecting moving light. The room was pitch dark as no moon was out that night. When I turned on the light it wasn't there. I immediately wrote down what I had seen so I could remember it vividly the next day. When I finally turned off the light, I again noticed it was pitch black in the room. None of these things have happened since and it wasn't too long after this that I had the vision that gave me relief of my pain.
 
More on next post.