Proteins, Apes & Us (Introduction)

by dhw, Saturday, April 07, 2012, 16:53 (4591 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: First were ancient ape-like creatures. All of us primates came from apeness. Long arms, stooped knuckle-dragging, tiny-brained. The only logical evolution from four-legged to upright. Split into three lines, hominin, gorilla, and chimp, after monkeys split off. Hominin kept changing, gorilla and chimpness did not. Hominin went to hominid to Homo.-Dhw: So according to this, Darwin was right (common descent, four-legged to upright) and Filler is wrong (humans evolved into apes, upright to four-legged). Now I'm even more puzzled by Filler's reasoning and yours.-David: re-read my response. Don't be obtuse. Monkeys first, then a vertebrae change to indicate a hominin line, from which a gorilla line and a chimp line branched off. Of course Darwin was correct. Filler's discovery supports this.-I apologize for my obtuseness, but you have read the book, whereas all I have to go on is your comments and the Amazon blurb, which states categorically that "apes descended from humans and not the other way around." This would seem to turn evolution on its head, but your scenario is that only MODERN apes (gorillas and chimps) have a human ancestor, and Darwin's theory is not under attack. So what do we have? Four-legged ape-like tree-dwelling creatures (you call them monkeys) underwent a mutation which straightened their backs and turned them into hominins. These went down into the savannah where, despite the advantages of being upright, some of them underwent a mutation that turned them back into four-legged apes (now called chimps) which went up into the trees again. Other hominins evolved into hominids, and then into homos. Is this correct?-I'm in no position to dispute the science here, though it would be helpful if we could have another scientist's view. You have examined the evidence and are convinced, so I'd prefer now to probe on a more philosophical level.-1) In your post of 04 April at 21.04, you cried exultantly: "Apes R not us, although atheists want it that way." Despite Dawkins' announcement that he is an African ape, I don't know of any other human who claims actually to BE an ape. In the light of your explanation, and if the criterion is lines of descent, should the cry now be "We R monkeys"? And "Chimps R us"? Otherwise, perhaps you would explain exactly what you meant.-2) Even if Filler's theory that chimps are descended from humans is true, how does it support your belief that humans are God's chosen species? -3) How does it support your belief that evolution has a purpose, if you think the purpose is/was to produce humans?-4) You have often argued that humans are different from other animals in kind and not degree. I can follow the arguments about consciousness etc., but how does Filler's theory support this thesis? If it doesn't, what is its significance?