Intelligent design (Introduction)

by Abel @, Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 23:40 (4755 days ago)

I am new to this site and still reading much of what I am finding to be a well-written an insightful commentary on the topic of evolution. I was beginning to believe that minds that are actually open to scientific inquiry was the thing of myth and legend. My congratulations to you all.

I am a theist, not conventional by any means, but a theist just the same. But as a theist, I don't believe in magic or miracles. I believe that an advanced science or technology might appear to be magical or miraculous, but it is not. The Old Testament, I believe, is primarily myth passed down by word of mouth over hundreds of years (and evolving all the time) before it was committed to paper (with all its' inaccuracies). But still that legend possesses a few kernels of truth.

Resolving the conflict between theists, atheists and agnostics requires that each group defines the words or concepts that they are arguing about first (a topic already touched upon in this forum). Theists are boxed into a corner by their own flawed definitions. I say flawed, because they are not supported by the bible, rather they were the suppositions of men that wanted an all-powerful and all-knowing God. The story of Genesis is also tainted by theist's flawed interpretations of creation. Unfortunately, since theists have believed this stuff for thousands of years, it might actually take an act of God to change their minds.

The book of Genesis is a simplified (as it had to be)story of creation. If God's "days" were considered an age or era (millions of years, rather than thousands), I could generally live with it says. According to the Genesis, God created man on the sixth day then he rested for a day before making Adam and Eve on the eighth day. Given that God's days are now potentially millions of years long, we can now see that man was here for a very long time before Adam and Eve arrived on the scene.

But who was Adam and Eve and why were they created? It is my belief that Adam and Eve represented the final race of man placed upon this world in an on-going effort to improve the genome. I also believe that they were placed upon this world about 4000 years ago, not the 6000 stipulated by most theists. Of course they they arrived at this figure simply by summing up the ages of the patriarchs in the bible, unaware that at that time in history, lifespan was traditionally measured in moons, not years. When the bible was written, the conversion from moons to years was never made. Shorter lifespans reported later, were not because people's ages were reported in years at that time, but rather because of God's decision to shorten lifespans.

And if the above opinion was not enough to alienate me from traditional theists, let me add this:

I don't believe that God created the universe, I believe the universe created God. I also don't believe that God is an individual, all-powerful, all-knowing being. I believe that "God" is a race of beings, brought about by the process of abiogenesis followed by evolution. This race's design is much simpler than our own.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 23:41 (4755 days ago) @ Abel

But since the topic of this post is intelligent design, I thought I might include a few of my comments that I made to a skeptic on another site.

"Many scientists subscribe to the theory of intelligent design, not because it conflicts with the theory of evolution, but because it complements it. It fills in the gaps nicely (and there are huge gaps).

I have already touched on the concept of abiogenesis being ludicrous given what we know of chemistry, odds and simple physics. This is the first gap in evolutionary theory.

The second gap is the life/death gap. Of course people don’t talk about this one much, but it is quite simple. If something is dead, it stays dead. So if I had a simple bacteria that, for the sake of argument, self-assembled by a process of chance from lifeless chemicals, that bacteria with all of its’ structures in place and intact would still be lifeless until its’ figurative battery was charged and its’ fuel tank filled.

We’ve certainly seen lots of dead bacteria and animals, but have we ever seen what is in effect a cellular AAA? No we have not. Dead things are dead and they stay dead. Atheistic scientists certainly possess quite a deal of faith when they chose to believe this happened at one time in history, and ironically deny the faith of theists when they say that Christ was raised from the dead too.

Now I will address some the gaps in evolutionary theory itself. There are a number of structures with the cell that constructed from components that have no function unto themselves. Why would they evolve separately when they only make sense as an assembly? Molecular motors, rotors, dimeric and tetrameric proteins, etc, are examples of these.

In the evolutionary record itself, there are huge gaps where life seems to take a leap from one form to another without any intermediates.

Intelligent design logically addresses all of these observations. It does not make any stipulations about the nature of the engineer(s). Whether it was an all-powerful God (as theists believe) or a race of beings whose technology is so advanced (and strange) that it appears to be magic (my belief) is not a part of that theory.

The vast majority of scientists reject this theory because of politics and faith, certainly not because of good science.

Consider this, if the Mars rover found words etched into a rock that said “welcome to mars, zebo was here first” would we believe this was eroded into the rock by the action of wind and sand? What if we found a tool as simple as a kitchen knife? Would we believed it evolved? If we did find those things on Mars and a scientist suggested they “evolved’ there, he/she would be laughed out of the room.

I have done the calculations to determine the odds of randomly assembling an mRNA strand coding for a functional 300 AA protein, using a racemic mix of RNA. That number quite easily exceeds the number of seconds that the universe has existed, multiplied by the number of bosons in the known universe. Given that life appeared on earth about 200 million years after it was cool enough to even possibly support it, it seems that we won a cosmic lottery with the very first ticket we bought. I don’t believe it for a New York minute, and any scientist that does is a good candidate to buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

When abiogenesis occurred it happened in a much larger pool of matter, over a much longer period of time, someplace where entropy was not tearing every macromolecule to shreds before the first chapter of the book of life could be written. The beings that evolved on that world are the ones that seeded this one and tried to guide evolution (it’s like herding kittens) to create the intelligence that they desired. Call this race the first race, the ancients, the Elohim, God, god(s), ET’s, angels, archangels, whatever you want, the archaeological evidence of their existence is in the tools that they made."

Intelligent design

by dhw1, Thursday, October 27, 2011, 17:37 (4754 days ago) @ Abel

First of all, let me join David in welcoming you to the forum. As you may have gathered, we’re a mixed bunch, but most of us try to debate the issues rationally and tolerantly, and we usually find that less rational and tolerant folk leave us fairly swiftly!

You will certainly have gathered that I myself am an agnostic, which means that I neither accept nor reject such theories as ID. Inevitably I therefore find myself arguing against those who do have definite views either way, but I hope it will lead to further discussion, as all of us can learn from a rational probing of the arguments.

I’d like to ask you first about your claims concerning Adam and Eve. You believe the OT is primarily myth with a few kernels of truth, so it would be interesting to know how you distinguish between myth and truth. Why, for instance, do you believe that Adam and Eve were real people? When you say “man was here for a very long time before Adam and Eve”, do you mean the forerunners of homo sapiens, or humans like us? Did your gods specially create Adam and Eve? If so, how did the earlier humans get here? I agree that some of the OT (written by many different authors) may relate to historical fact, but why Genesis, which has less chance than most of being called historical? (Apologies for the inquisition, but it’s as good a way as any of gaining understanding.)

The second part of your post in my view provides an excellent summary of the gaps in evolutionary theory and the case against a chance origin of life on Earth. I’m sure David, a panentheist, will nod his vigorous approval, and indeed so do I. But if the chance theory strains credulity, so does your god(s) theory. You “don’t believe that God created the universe”, but that the universe created a “race of beings, brought about by the process of abiogenesis followed by evolution. This race’s design is much simpler than our own.” (Why simpler if they were so advanced that they were able to create us, whereas we are still incapable of creating even the most basic forms of life?) It appears that you do believe in abiogenesis and evolution, and only the time factor makes it unlikely on Earth. Instead you propose some other planet, where “the first hereditary molecule” (Dawkins). evolved into a race of – presumably mortal – beings. “The archaeological evidence of their existence is in the tools that they made.” That, in a nutshell, is the argument for ID: that we are too complex not to have been designed, so we are the evidence. David calls his “first cause” designer an eternal Universal Intelligence. As I see it – wearing my theist hat – the one advantage his theory has over yours is that it counters the atheist view that the mechanisms for life and for evolution (theoretically, simple forms don’t have to evolve into more complex ones) could assemble themselves by chance. Your theory is that the same mechanisms did indeed assemble themselves by chance, but on a different planet where they had more time. In the context of ID, you are therefore a theist on Earth, but would be an atheist if you were on Planet X. Is that a fair deduction?

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Thursday, October 27, 2011, 22:14 (4754 days ago) @ dhw1

Firstly, I'd like to thank both you and David for the warm welcome. Secondly, I would like to apologize for not being more explicit with my beliefs concerning abiogenesis. What I posted was merely a portion of a much larger discussion that I was having with an ID skeptic and taken out of context it doesn't make a lot of sense.

The kinetics of solution dynamics in matter as we understand it mixes components dissolved within it by an entropic process. Homochiralic crystals of amino acids and ribonucleic acids dropped into solution will dissolve into a racemic mix of enantiomers that makes such a mix not only useless, but in many ways poisonous, to life as we know it. These same withering winds of chemistry, entropy and energy are also actively degrading any organic macromolecules that chance has created. In order to believe the billion monkeys typing on a billion typewriters for a billion years metaphor, one must utterly ignore the billion monkeys (entropy and energy) that have nothing better to do than rip the manuscript to shreds as it's being written. Thus abiogenesis in matter as we understand it is not highly improbable, it is impossible.

For abiogenesis to occur the entropy induced by simple kinetics would have to minimal (but not zero). Then racemic mixtures of amino acids and ribonucleic acids would naturally segregate into liquid and gaseous "crystals" of homochiralic compounds. These liquid and gaseous "crystals" would only mix and interact with other homochiralic pools of these life blocks at their interface.

Now we have the typewriter we need, the letter pool we need, and the monkeys that we need to type without all the monkeys ripping the first chapter of the book of life to shreds. Now abiogenesis is not only possible, but inevitable given enough matter, time and energy. Life in this type of matter would be easy living. Without a hurricane of entropy tearing away at all your structures, there would be much less need to harness materials and energy to repair those structures. Multicellular organisms made of this kind of matter would not necessarily even require aerobic respiration to supply their energetic needs.

Though the first chapter of the book of Life only coded for a simple cell (or something like one), that cell through a process of evolution became the first race. In my post I suggested this race was simple, that was not my intent, just flawed writing. I meant to say this first cell was simple. The first race is complex and advanced.

I must go now. I will be back later to continue this thread.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Friday, October 28, 2011, 01:35 (4754 days ago) @ Abel

Of course you must realize by now, that if I don't believe that abiogenesis occured in matter as we understand it, it must have occurred in matter of a type that we don't understand. This, of course, is dark matter.

Simple odds would dictate abiogenesis would occur first in the largest pool of matter even if one disregarded the impossibility of that event occurring in matter as we understand it. Since dark matter represents the majority of the matter in the universe, it has a statistical edge over matter of a more conventional sort.

But what is dark matter and how much of it is there really out there? According to gravitational studies, it represents 83% of the matter in the universe. That's a lot, but is that number correct? The answer is no. It actually represents over 99.9% of the matter in our universe.

Of course you're probably pulling your hair out at this point, wondering, "how could I possibly believe that?". And that is a very long story. A story that should begin with, "I am not a liar", but as a scientist, I do have to consider that I could be deluded, as do you. But be assured that I will not knowingly mislead you.

Since I was a child, I could see ghosts. A relatively recent encounter with hostile spirits opened the eyes of my soul for a time to the world of dark matter that exists around us. I could see clearly for miles, straight through walls as if they were ghostly too. The world beneath my feet was composed of a patch work quilt of different colored fogs (homochiralic pools of gas), that varied from region to region as if the stuff was being loosely associated with matter as we know it (matter of a feather flocks together).

I had the opportunity to watch this misty dark matter as it fell in our gravitational field. By my calculations, dark matter is only subject to about 2%
of the effects of earth's gravitational field. If we are only subject to 2% of dark matter's gravitational field, then there is 50 times more dark matter in the universe that we even suspect.

At this point you must think that I am insane (I know I would). I have often considered that perhaps what I saw, felt and heard was just a full-blown hallucination and as such I could just disregard the whole event. There is just one annoying thing that is keeping from the comforts of knowing that I am nuts: I have evidence that proves what happened to me was very real.

The evidence that I possess is a piece of dark matter technology that was designed by the first race. That technology emits a frequency of light that is absorbed by the cell walls of bacteria specifically "microwaving" them while leaving normal tissues unharmed. I have tested it many times on myself and my cats, it works very well.

Explaining what dark matter is requires delving into dimensional and temporal physics. I'm not talking about a multiverse here or "vibrational" planes or anything like that. I don't buy that crap and it is certainly not necessary to explain dark matter. For the sake of brevity, at this time, I will define dark matter as "temporally saturated matter" and matter as we understand it to be "temporally polarized matter". And for the sake of future discussions: "time is not suspended in space" but rather "space is suspended in time".

Think on this and we shall discuss it later.

dhw1: "I’d like to ask you first about your claims concerning Adam and Eve. You believe the OT is primarily myth with a few kernels of truth, so it would be interesting to know how you distinguish between myth and truth. Why, for instance, do you believe that Adam and Eve were real people? When you say “man was here for a very long time before Adam and Eve”, do you mean the forerunners of homo sapiens, or humans like us? Did your gods specially create Adam and Eve? If so, how did the earlier humans get here? I agree that some of the OT (written by many different authors) may relate to historical fact, but why Genesis, which has less chance than most of being called historical?

I have a gift when it comes to spotting the truth. Though I know I was born with some of this ability, its' development was most certainly aided by my father, a man with a quirky sense of humor. It was routine for him to try to feed me some line of crap just to see if the fish were biting. It took some time, but I learned to judge the message, not the messenger. Kernels of truth are those that ring true or might be true (for the sake of compromise). I prefer those truths that have been backed up by a more scholarly source than the bible.

When I said that man was here for a very long time before Adam and Eve, I meant both the forerunners of man and man. Adam and Eve were not created from the ground up as the bible says, they were both born of human mothers who were implanted with a modified and fertilized egg. This is how all the apes were evolved into men. One generation at a time.

I chose Genesis for a number of reasons. One, if humanity is ever going to quit fighting about its' origins, a middle ground has to be found between theists, atheists and agnostics. Genesis, if interpreted properly, can provide that middle ground.

This thread is getting a bit long so I will continue on the next.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Friday, October 28, 2011, 07:56 (4754 days ago) @ Abel

In order to explain the other reasons that I chose Genesis, I should of course, start at the beginning.

In the beginning there was only darkness and time. What we now know to be our universe, was linearly motionless, spinning about a zero point in space and time. Each of its' dimensions balanced in a quantum dance between where it was and where it will be. Its' only energetic emissions are the spiraling waveforms of time itself and gravity (if this in not just an expression of temporal energy-as I suspect it might be). But far away in this unfathomable vastness of darkness and time another much vaster universe spun. Eventually the gravity of that universe reached ours, causing it to move. Initially this movement was through time itself (the fastest, easiest way to move). But eventually a temporal speed limit was reached as the positive dimensions of energetic space "grew" to their maximum temporal length and width. When this happened the quadrants of matter/time that hosted the temporal particles necessary to alter that matter type's spacial relationship to time was lost, emitting two particles and two antiparticles and initiating a chain reaction that created light and kinetic entropy.

The high-intensity light that was emitted by this temporal polarization of matter's spacial dimension was still temporally saturated in both its' magnetic and electric dimensions and thus still invisible to us. When this high-intensity light propelled matter to its' temporal speed limit along these vectors, matter was temporally polarized along one or both of these dimensions. That is, their temporal "size" was maximized in these dimensions, akin to what happened to their spacial dimensions. These reactions, of course, involved more nuclear chain reactions as particles and antiparticles were ejected from the dimensions around the zero point they were orbiting. This series of nuclear temporal polarizations is traditionally called "The Big Bang". I prefer to think of it as the "Big Brake" as the universe "decelerated" from "time-light" speed to sub-light speeds.

Some of the matter types created by this "Big Bang" are strange and rare, while others are just rare. Matter, as we understand it, falls in the latter category.
Stuck in time, it must move through space (a small dimension)and take on all the characteristics of maximized entropy expression, inertial expression, momentum expression and gravitational expression that we are familiar with.

After untold aeons, temporally saturated stardust containing the elements of life from some long-dead supernova gathered on what was most probably a gas giant in a close orbit around a star. It is upon this world, in the homochiralic pools of life blocks that swirled there, that life began. After many more aeons those simple life forms there evolved into a race of sentient beings.

The faithful have many names for this place, but the most common is heaven.


It is late here and this is a good place to stop for now. I will continue later.

Intelligent design

by dhw, Friday, October 28, 2011, 17:41 (4753 days ago) @ Abel

There’s a lot to digest in these posts, and I’m in no position to discuss most of the science with you as it’s way beyond my range. Perhaps David will engage with you on that level. However, I hope you won’t mind if I ask you to clarify some of your observations, because this may help me get a clearer overall picture.

You say that for abiogenesis to occur, the entropy induced by simple kinetics would have to be minimal (but not zero). Once the “crystals” are interacting, abiogenesis would be inevitable – given enough matter, time and energy – and “life in this type of matter would be easy living.” Then the simple cell would have evolved to become the first race, which “is complex and advanced”. My layman’s perhaps rather stupid question is: why? If life is simple, and if the environment is so stable that there is little need to “harness materials” and “repair structures”, why would such a simple organism need to evolve? At least current evolutionary theory includes the need for organisms to adapt in order to survive, but on your Planet X the fight for survival appears to play little part. Innovation, which is a major problem for some of us if it is attributed to random mutations, remains a major problem in your own theory. Why would sheer chance create all the organs and faculties necessary to make your first race so “complex and advanced” that they were able to create us?

Some scientists distinguish between dark matter and dark energy, but most seem to agree that the word “dark” is just another word for “unknown”. You will be relieved to hear that I have very little hair left to pull out, but in any case I have long since ceased to give any credence to figures like 83% or 99.9%. This has nothing to do with you personally – I just don’t see how anyone can possibly come up with such figures relating to a universe that they have barely begun to explore and to matter which they know virtually nothing about: See www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14948730 for a recent shock to the theory.

I hope you’ll also be relieved to hear that your experiences with ghosts and visions do not make me think you are insane, and I also know many totally sane people who believe that Adam and Eve really existed. I have an open mind on people’s psychic experiences – and I’m intrigued by your “dark matter technology"! – but must confess to extreme scepticism when it comes to stories written by fallible humans about the words and deeds of their god or gods thousands of years after the purported events (if they ever took place). Much as I try to foster open-mindedness, it does have its limits, and when the tales contradict the general consensus of science, I go with science, however fallible that too may be. But strangely, although you do believe in Adam and Eve, you actually disagree with the bible, because you say they were “born of human mothers who were implanted with a modified and fertilized egg.” Again I don’t see how you can pick and choose which parts of the bible you accept and which you don’t, and you will certainly understand that I can’t base my own judgement on your “gift when it comes to spotting the truth”.

Equally strange for me is your next remark: “This is how all the apes were evolved into men.” It seems then that you accept random evolution from a simple cell to a race of advanced beings on Planet X, but evolution on Planet Earth had to be guided (the implication of your passive verb). Did this guided evolution also begin with a simple cell? This seems most likely, since the simplest forms still survive today, but if the first race evolved naturally from a simple cell, why couldn't the simple cell also have evolved naturally on Earth? I'm not arguing here against ID, but against the argument that life and evolution on Earth required ID whereas life and evolution on Planet X did not. So I've now come full circle back to my second paragraph!

I hope you won’t consider all of this to be in any way offensive. My position is one of almost complete ignorance, and I realize that I’m commenting on a theology which you have only just begun to explain. So please be patient with my scepticism!

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Friday, October 28, 2011, 23:22 (4753 days ago) @ dhw

Thank you for the pointed questions dhw, they are exactly what this theory needs if it is ever to be accepted by anyone. I will endeavor to answer them well.

You asked about what selective pressures would exist in such a system and why would living organisms within it become more complex.

In a high-entropy system such as ours there is a metabolic advantage to simplicity that off-sets any advantage provided by complexity. Organisms in our environment need to maximize their efficiency to compete effectively, especially when food is scarce. This relationship is primal. The catabolic power that an organism produces must equal or exceed the metabolic power that it consumes (its' metabolic load) or it will die by a process of energetic depletion. To avoid this, cells have mechanisms such as hypoxia-inducible factors (HIFs) that reduce their metabolic load during energy shortages, specifically to avoid this fate. The cell also has anabolic demands (a need for parts). The catabolic and anabolic needs of a cell must be met at all times. Replication/reproduction greatly increases those needs, a hostile environment will increase them as well.

Though many scientists know what I have told you, few actually truly understand it. If they did, cancer and many other diseases could be curedby a means that they can never defeat: the Laws of Nature. Fortunately for all of us, science is slowly coming to that understanding. I will provide a couple of links here if you wish to read about this further, of course I will be happy to answer any questions you have concerning this topic.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/66520083/Targeting-Cancer-Metabolism-a-Therapeutic-Window-Opens

http://www.thedcasite.com/Dr_Young_Ko/YHK_3BrPA_HCC_BBRC_plus_Suppor_Nov_05_2004.pdf

I'm digressing here, so I will get back on track. This illustration shows how in times of environmental stress, the metabolic mopeds of this world gain a selective advantage over its' metabolic tanks. So though you might think it would be cool to be able to survive on nectar like a hummingbird that delusion would quickly vanish when you had to eat like one.

Now lets talk about why life in a low-entropy environment would inevitably become more complex.

The first and primary drive for this change are those monkeys furiously pounding away at their typewriters. After another age, one of them wrote the second chapter of life, which was followed by the third, then the forth, etc. In this low-entropy environment the advantages conferred by complexity far outweighed its' disadvantages so each of these chapters could be incorporated with little downside to their possession.

In an environment where the building blocks of life tended to associate into pools, there would be a strong environmental stressor for motility. That motility required a cellular "intelligence" to actively direct that motion. We see this "intelligence" in motile cells that can "see" and hunt prey (a protozoa or killer T-cell e.g.) and move by the directed motion of their cell walls, cilia or filaments.

It was the evolution of predators that created the intense selective pressure for greater intelligence. Not only did the predators have to become smarter to catch their prey, their prey had to become smarter to avoid their predators. The need for intelligence to survive in temporally saturated matter is much greater than ours. To understand why, you must understand the properties of temporally saturated (dark) matter even further.

Eating something good on Earth is easy, you pick it up and eat it. All your temporal branes match exactly all the time so you can digest it easily. In dark matter, temporal brane angles are variable. You can only "touch" or "eat" something if your brane angles match. For non-intelligent life (the first organism) these "alignments" happened by chance, but with intelligence came the ability to "twist" the organism's own temporal brane angles to match that of its' food, greatly increasing its' ability harness materials and energy. When one organism began to feed upon another, this created an intelligence arms race. Not only could a predator use its' growing intelligence to better "catch" prey by rapidly shifting its' temporal branes to match those of its' food, but its' prey could escape being eaten by twisting its' own branes so they didn't match and running away straight through the stomach wall of whatever ate it. On this dark matter planet stupidity was rapidly weeded out by evolution. The process was accelerated as one predator type began to feed on another. In dark matter, the fittest are defined by their greater intelligence.

You posed a number of good questions, and answering them will take time. Time that I don't have today. I will return to this topic when I am able.

Intelligent design

by dhw, Saturday, October 29, 2011, 13:59 (4753 days ago) @ Abel

Abel believes that life on Earth was designed by a race of beings which evolved spontaneously on dark-matter, low-entropy Planet X. I don’t understand why chance should be an acceptable innovator on Planet X but not on Planet Earth.

ABEL: The first and primary drive for this change [to complexity] are those monkeys furiously pounding away at their typewriters. After another age, one of them wrote the second chapter of life, which was followed by the third, then the fourth etc.

Exactly the same process as on Earth, but atheist evolutionists might call the changes random mutations while theist evolutionists might take them as evidence of design.

ABEL: In this low-entropy environment the advantages conferred by complexity far outweighed its disadvantages.

If the innovations here on high-entropy Earth had not been not beneficial, they would not have survived. The advantages conferred by complexity far outweighed its disadvantages.

ABEL: It was the evolution of predators that created the intense selective pressure for greater intelligence.

I have three problems with this:

1) You continue to use the word “evolution” as if that explained the inevitability of innovations. Why should your theoretical predators inevitably have evolved on low-entropy Planet X, whereas the real-life predators on Earth had to be designed?

2) The evolution of predators on Planet Earth also created intense selective pressure: predators developed strategies to catch their prey, and the prey developed strategies to avoid being caught. You say “Eating something good on Earth is easy, you pick it up and eat it.” No it isn’t, and no you don’t. You first have to catch it. I see no difference between your X creatures’ “intelligence” in twisting their brane angles and our Earth creatures’ “intelligence” in growing longer beaks, mastering the art of camouflage, banding together in hunting groups etc. You say: “On this dark matter planet stupidity was rapidly weeded out by evolution.” If twisting brane angles means intelligence, so does camouflage etc., and the name we give to the weeding out process you describe is Natural Selection.

3) Clearly the creatures on Planet X were just as mortal as those on Planet Earth, and despite the low entropy it now appears that they were subject to exactly the same struggle for survival as us. And so apart from shortening the odds against abiogenesis, life on Planet X followed the same evolutionary pattern as life on Earth, but the sentient beings that evolved there were a lot cleverer than we are at the moment (though perhaps one day we’ll catch up), and they were not designed, whereas we are.

I have difficulty believing that the mechanisms for life, replication, adaptation and innovation – leading eventually from simple cells to human consciousness – assembled themselves by chance on Planet Earth. I have the same difficulty believing that those mechanisms assembled and developed themselves by chance on Planet X, so in the context of design I’m still no better off, but actually have one extra layer of non-belief to cope with. I'm sure we'll both agree that the Earth and we humans exist. What evidence do you have that Planet X and your first race exist or existed? Why should I take your creation story to be anything but a well researched piece of science fiction?

I must once more finish with an apology. You are doing us a favour by presenting us with these ideas – which are new to me and maybe to others too – and my critical responses will seem ungrateful and ungracious, and probably ignorant too. My hope is that you may be used to such discussions, and that you’ll regard these questions as an opportunity to clarify your ideas rather than as an offensive intrusion.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Sunday, October 30, 2011, 18:59 (4751 days ago) @ Abel

Thank you for the pointed questions dhw, they are exactly what this theory needs if it is ever to be accepted by anyone.

Though many scientists know what I have told you, few actually truly understand it. If they did, cancer and many other diseases could be curedby a means that they can never defeat: the Laws of Nature. Fortunately for all of us, science is slowly coming to that understanding. I will provide a couple of links here if you wish to read about this further, of course I will be happy to answer any questions you have concerning this topic.

I've read all your entries. You are right, I'm having a problem accepting your description of your 'special powers'.

You obviously have an elegant background in science, and you obviously seem to believe in what you have described. So, you either are for real, pulling our collective legs or somewhat psychotic.:>))

Can you be somewhat personal and tell us about your life and background, as we all have, so we can settle on some judgment.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Monday, October 31, 2011, 01:08 (4751 days ago) @ David Turell

David:

"Though many scientists know what I have told you, few actually truly understand it. If they did, cancer and many other diseases could be cured by a means that they can never defeat: the Laws of Nature. Fortunately for all of us, science is slowly coming to that understanding."

I've read all your entries. You are right, I'm having a problem accepting your description of your 'special powers'.

You obviously have an elegant background in science, and you obviously seem to believe in what you have described. So, you either are for real, pulling our collective legs or somewhat psychotic.:>))

dhw:

What evidence do you have that Planet X and your first race exist or existed? Why should I take your creation story to be anything but a well researched piece of science fiction?


David, curing cancer and disease by the Laws of Nature (laws of cellular survival) is a very real and rapidly expanding science. In this field my name is well-regarded by hundreds if not thousands, both as an altruist and a gifted scientist. These good men and women have learned to judge this messenger by his message and disregard that he is only a craftsman.

This is true.

Now David, concerning my experiences with dark matter and the dark matter technology I possess, those experiences were either very real, or I am very psychotic. Though I have tested the technology that I possess many times, I would like to test it under controlled scientific circumstances and actually measure the frequency of light that this device emits. I would gladly submit it to scientific scrutiny. But if wishes were fishes we'd all be fed. Not too many scientists or doctors are going to humor a crazy guy who thinks he's got a cool new dark matter machine that just happens to be "stuck" in his hands. If you find one, let me know.

This is the first piece of evidence that I have that the first race exists: a piece of working dark matter technology with an intelligent purpose (killing bacteria while leaving tissues unharmed).

The second piece of evidence that I have is a another dark matter machine, this one "stuck" in my feet/lower legs. Though I have yet to determine exactly what function the radiance that it emits has, I am leaning towards the conclusion that it accelerates seed germination.

The third piece of evidence that I possess applies more directly to my interpretation of Genesis, so I will address that when I return to that topic.
The good news about this piece of evidence, is that it can be mailed to you so you can see for yourself (if you have a microscope).

The forth piece of evidence that I can supply is a "dark matter experiment" whose results you can see online. But before I supply the links to those "experiments" I must further address the properties of dark matter so that you can understand the principles of temporal "lensing" and thus understand what you are seeing.

In order to understand what is happening in four dimensions, it is easiest to work with three. Let's say I had a box of water the same length and width as a playing card but 100 inches tall. Now imagine that three-dimensional object as a two-dimensional one(a playing card)laying flat on the brane of the "now" as we understand it. When you rotate that card from left to right and project its points to the surface of the now beneath it, you can see from that perspective that card (a three-dimensional object) would appear to vary between being dimensionless (perpendicular to the plane of the now) to having its' maximum length and width expressed. Let us consider this left to right motion shifting the object's electric temporal brane angles. This same "temporal lensing" effect can be induced in magnetic temporal brane by rotating the card forward or away from you. Keep in mind though, as soon as the "card" appears to change in size, you cannot touch it --it becomes "ghostly".

You can see having a magnetic or electric temporal lens in place will establish a maximum "size" that your card could "appear" to be. This is useful to us. With a lot of energy and the sloppiness of Newtonian physics this phenomenon can be observed.

Let's say I had very bright rather large 10 foot wide "globe" to illustrate this effect. If I "tilted" its' magnetic brane down to the "now" as we perceive it while keeping its' electric brane up my large 10 foot globe would appear to be a smaller (say 2 1/2 - 3 foot globe) that would be emitting lots of magnetic interference. If I "pushed" the electric brane "down" to match our "now" while keeping the magnetic brane "up", we would see a globe of light instead. But in both cases, (emitting light or magnetic energy) the object would remain "ghostly". That is, not only would it be intangible but it could "fly" like a ghost through the dimensions of time.

(continued on next string)

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Monday, October 31, 2011, 01:10 (4751 days ago) @ Abel

(continued from previous string)

Fortunately, this experiment has been "done" many times and the results recorded and wondered about. Here's what it looks like:

Case 1: pulling the magnetic brane "down" to our "now" while keeping the electric brane "up".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yGpqP9iUgg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n1kFX0MeTo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82_xzHcAQgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARUuXlHomJk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4EaB8jNhf0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ENr2c72gYQ

Case 2: pulling the electric brane "down" while keeping the magnetic brane "up".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TubIwaV1Sg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V6II2Gj5EI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xS6qi2ko-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTQVtyh4XkI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkOp3m3kTn4

Every one of the "ships" seen in these videos and photographs are larger than they "appear". Though appearing only 2-3 feet wide, they are actually ~10 feet wide, with a nearly human-sized pilot inside executing these temporal "twists" so we can see the result of this "dark matter experiment".

Although this is evidence, it is not proof. I truly wish I could give you more at this time, but I cannot.

Still what I have explained about dark matter will come in handy later when I discuss the origins of uncertainty, the concept of temporal "concentration", abiogenesis, mortality and the temporal origins of the waveform nature of matter and energy and the differences between Newtonian and quantum physics.

I will address these in a later post(s).

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Monday, October 31, 2011, 15:03 (4750 days ago) @ Abel

(continued from previous string)

Fortunately, this experiment has been "done" many times and the results recorded and wondered about. Here's what it looks like:

Case 1: pulling the magnetic brane "down" to our "now" while keeping the electric brane "up".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yGpqP9iUgg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n1kFX0MeTo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82_xzHcAQgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARUuXlHomJk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4EaB8jNhf0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ENr2c72gYQ

Case 2: pulling the electric brane "down" while keeping the magnetic brane "up".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TubIwaV1Sg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V6II2Gj5EI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xS6qi2ko-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTQVtyh4XkI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkOp3m3kTn4

Every one of the "ships" seen in these videos and photographs are larger than they "appear". Though appearing only 2-3 feet wide, they are actually ~10 feet wide, with a nearly human-sized pilot inside executing these temporal "twists" so we can see the result of this "dark matter experiment".

Watched them all. Are we going back to Roswell? From your theories I should have known aforehand you must believe in UFO's and alien visitations. Shaky ground here!

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Monday, October 31, 2011, 14:58 (4750 days ago) @ Abel

David, curing cancer and disease by the Laws of Nature (laws of cellular survival) is a very real and rapidly expanding science. In this field my name is well-regarded by hundreds if not thousands, both as an altruist and a gifted scientist. These good men and women have learned to judge this messenger by his message and disregard that he is only a craftsman.
The good news about this piece of evidence, is that it can be mailed to you so you can see for yourself (if you have a microscope).

I have ny binoc from Med School, loaned out over the years to many med students, so they did not have to buy one. oil emersion up to 1,500 power. Mail away!

This same "temporal lensing" effect can be induced in magnetic temporal brane by rotating the card forward or away from you. Keep in mind though, as soon as the "card" appears to change in size, you cannot touch it --it becomes "ghostly".

Are you referring to a form of holography?

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 00:38 (4749 days ago) @ David Turell

Abel: This same "temporal lensing" effect can be induced in magnetic temporal brane by rotating the card forward or away from you. Keep in mind though, as soon as the "card" appears to change in size, you cannot touch it --it becomes "ghostly".

David: Are you referring to a form of holography?

This is not a form of holography. These ships are very real and made primarily of matter as we understand it. Temporal lensing is a phenomenon predicted by the Theory of Spacial Relativity which is a corollary to the Theory of Everything. The theory of relativity is a corollary to this theory as well. I will put my own temporal "spin" on this concept later. Before I go any further however, I think I should take the time to provide some clarity to my beliefs.

1. I believe that temporally "concentrated" (hundreds of times more concentrated than what we would consider "pure") homochiralic pools of life's building blocks assembled into the simple "words" of the Book of Life at the interface of these pools.

2.Once these "words" were written, they precipitated out of these pools into jumbled but similar pools of these more complex building blocks. Again these pools were temporally "concentrated".

3. These "words' assembled into "sentences" which in turn precipitated into pools of "sentences". To imagine how this would happen, think of hydrocarbons. Methane is a gas (light not dense). As carbon atoms are added that gas becomes a volatile liquid, then a liquid, then and oil then a wax. Dark matter is like ours in that it will separate according to its' density in any gravitational field and this was the gravitational field of a gas giant.

4. These sentences precipitated as paragraphs, then chapters, then books, then libraries of conjoined "books". Then these conjoined libraries joined.

5. Given that destructive events (entropy) was such a rare event, these conjoined libraries were conferred a measure of immortality that conventional matter will never possess.

6. At some point one of these mega-libraries began to express all that genetic "junk" to make a few useful and many useless tools. Given that these cells and the molecules that they made had little or no need to be repaired they also had no need for replacing those tools (useless or otherwise). Thus there was no need for the process of self-consumption (autophagy) and renewal that cells in this environment must perform to maintain their structure in the midst of entropy's and uncertainty's destructive onslaught. Without the need to repair and replace useless tools, these "cells" only had to make these tools once, not hundreds if not thousands of times, liberating them from the catabolic and anabolic burdens of such an activity. The metabolic load of unneeded complexity (especially useless complexity) is actively selected against in this environment as organisms strive to compete by maximizing their efficiency.

7. One megalibrary after another was added, producing a few useful tools and providing lots more previously useless tools. But some of these "parts" combined making a molecular "machine" of some sort, creating something useful and new.

8. This megamachine of genetic gems were interspersed across vast quantities of genetic garbage so any random event was about as likely to fix something (create something useful and new) as it was to destroy something useful and compromise the mortality of the cell (but not that of its' molecules).

9. As this original cell "reproduced" it created more genetic "garages" filled with useless complexity that when and if they added some more garbage they might get something useful and new.

10. Eventually sexual reproduction came to be allowing these cells to exchange genetic gems and garbage greatly accelerating evolution.

11. These cells through competition and selection became multicellular, and what was cellular intelligence became multicellular intelligence. The need for intelligence to feed and hunt effectively in dark matter is greater than our own. On our world a bacteria can feed on a piece of grain without expressing any intelligence. In dark matter, the bacteria must adjust its' brane angles to match those of the piece of grain, before it can even touch it, much less take a bite.

12. These multicellular organisms eventually evolved into the first race. This is a race made of dark matter. More specifically matter that is still temporally saturated in its' electric and magnetic dimensions (EM matter).

13. This EM matter race created life in matter as we know it.

14. Since this race created life as we know it and thus existence as we know it, Genesis is correct. They (God), created the earth and the heavens as far as humanity is concerned. And when they (God) decided to make eyes, they (He) effectively said, "Let there be light".

Intelligent design

by BBella @, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 01:43 (4749 days ago) @ Abel

....And when they (God) decided to make eyes, they (He) effectively said, "Let there be light".

What really bothers me about this whole post connected to the last sentence above is that it all made complete sense to me. I could picture the whole thing happening as I read, and I know very little science jargon. Maybe I just have a very vivid imagination?

bb

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 04:55 (4749 days ago) @ BBella

BBella" What really bothers me about this whole post connected to the last sentence above is that it all made complete sense to me. I could picture the whole thing happening as I read, and I know very little science jargon. Maybe I just have a very vivid imagination?


I try to keep things simple enough for me to understand. I am happy that you can too.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 14:31 (4748 days ago) @ Abel

BBella" What really bothers me about this whole post connected to the last sentence above is that it all made complete sense to me. I could picture the whole thing happening as I read, and I know very little science jargon. Maybe I just have a very vivid imagination?


I try to keep things simple enough for me to understand. I am happy that you can too.

What bothers me is the whole scientific world is unaware of the material you two seem to 'know'. I do science. Can you explain more?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111031081920.htm

Intelligent design

by dhw, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 15:29 (4748 days ago) @ David Turell

BBella: What really bothers me about this whole post connected to the last sentence above is that it all made complete sense to me. I could picture the whole thing happening as I read, and I know very little science jargon. Maybe I just have a very vivid imagination?

ABEL: I try to keep things simple enough for me to understand. I am happy that you can too.

DAVID: What bothers me is the whole scientific world is unaware of the material you two seem to 'know'. I do science. Can you explain more?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111031081920.htm

In my post of 28 October at 17.41 I drew attention to another article that highlighted major problems with the whole theory of dark matter/energy:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14948730

Like BBella and unlike David and Abel, I am not a scientist, but if there is no scientific consensus, I look for coherence in the arguments. There is anything but scientific consensus here, but perhaps as we proceed the arguments may become more convincing. At the moment, I find it easier to imagine the spontaneous evolution of material earthly humans than that of material extra-terrestrial gods.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 21:21 (4748 days ago) @ dhw
edited by unknown, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 21:32

dhw: "Like BBella and unlike David and Abel, I am not a scientist, but if there is no scientific consensus, I look for coherence in the arguments. There is anything but scientific consensus here, but perhaps as we proceed the arguments may become more convincing. At the moment, I find it easier to imagine the spontaneous evolution of material earthly humans than that of material extra-terrestrial gods."

Time is the flame in which we all burn. Entropy is life's first and longest friend and as well as its' worst and oldest enemy.

In the beginning, the universe was purely quantum in nature, utterly perfect. Every action and reaction was digital, either yes or no. Things only happen in exact places, at exact times, in exact fashions or they don't happen at all.

When matter fell from this state of "grace" it became imperfect and its' interactions imperfect as well. Each successive "fall", from EM matter to M matter or E matter then finally to matter, induced another degree of uncertainty and entropy into the system as integral relationships that added or subtracted perfectly on a a real brane, became a range of values that were referred on an imaginary one (the quadrants that contained these matter/time particles are now empty). Thus interactions that before would have only occurred perfectly at specific times now occur imperfectly all the time.

Though I will expand on this later, I bring it up now to remind you of the degrees of entropy that are growing as matter descends from perfection. In matter as we understand it, entropy is much more "unfriendly" to life than it is "friendly".

In this world many more useful tools are being lost than will ever be made. So while many might believe that humanity will evolve into a higher life form, I do not. Humanity, as a race is advancing genetically towards extinction as the telomeres at the end of our strands of DNA become shorter with each passing eon. First men will quit being born, then women (even if they have stored sperm).

The good news is if humanity has not been destroyed by then for some other reason, they will have the understanding and tools that they need to repair their genome and survive. Hopefully at that time, they will also have the understanding to realize why they have not "evolved" into telepaths yet.

I am a great believer in the truth and logic and perfection. I am not fond of the statistical science of Newtonian physics, but it is a necessary evil, somewhat akin to using a gallop poll to figure out how your wife voted. Newtonian physics exists because of the sloppy math of imperfect matter.
And that sloppy math is sloppiest in matter as we understand it.

Now as I try to explain these forms of matter to you (with mixed results) imagine if I was trying to teach them to a barbarian 5000 years ago. I might show them a time ship that could do the things that you saw in those links that I posted. Then I would tell them that the vast majority of the universe was composed of just four forms of matter (elements). The ship you are seeing is made of normal matter (earth), when it expresses its' M-matter nature it burns with light brightly (fire), when I tilt it the other way you can see its' silvery E-matter nature (water), and it is all powered (given life) by a radioactive isotope of EM-matter that cannot be seen (Air).

Or on the other hand I might say, dark matter has a Trinity of materials that God uses to create those that we call souls, archangels and spirits. Or they might say that a being that could control matter as we understand it must be composed of a Trinity of dark matter elements to so that it can manipulate material things.

But then if you were trying to civilize barbarians and make them follow your laws and study your sciences, you might have told them that you were a god too.

This world once had a need for religion, and in some ways that need still exists. But you will not find me in this world's churches, temples or mosques. Though I subscribe to some of their tenets, I try to "walk the walk" and try not to be too annoyed with those that merely "talk the talk". I actually practice the tenets of honesty, tolerance and peace that these religions preach, and stay clear of all the in-fighting and violence that occurs as proud men fight and kill each other as they vie to decide who is the most loving and peaceful.

I generally prefer animals to people. They manage to "walk the walk" without talking at all. But they aren't as divorced from their instincts (God's laws) as we are.

If these beliefs sound strange to you, it is because they are the simple beliefs of a simple man.

Also dhw, I feel I should correct you. Technically I am not a scientist. Though my gifts as a scientist are well known, I am only a craftsman.

Intelligent design

by dhw, Thursday, November 03, 2011, 15:21 (4747 days ago) @ Abel

Abel, I’m struggling to find any coherence in your history of Planets X and Earth. May I impose on your patience and ask you to give me direct answers to the following questions, some of which I’ve asked before but which you have not answered:

1) You believe that Planet X bacteria spontaneously (= without design) formed themselves and evolved into mortal predators and prey and ultimately into gods. Why, briefly, is this believable whereas the spontaneous birth and evolution of Planet Earth bacteria into mortal predators and prey and ultimately into humans is not?
2) You said that the gods have/had a “measure” of immortality. Please explain as briefly as possible what this expression means.
3) You say that in the beginning the universe was perfect but fell from “grace”. Your gods evolved from corruptible, material creatures (predators and prey), so even Planet X isn’t/wasn’t perfect, and self-interest as the key to physical survival – and as the root of moral corruption – was therefore also rife. Are/were your gods nevertheless “perfect” (whatever that means), despite their origins?
4) You then leap to the future of humanity, which you blame for its own corruption and self-destructiveness. (So do I, but from a different angle.) Clearly your version of the fall from grace had nothing to do with humans, who weren’t even around when imperfect matter as we know it was formed, and our “random nature of brain (personality) construction” can only be blamed on those who created us. You say the gods placed living agents on this world, who were corrupted by conditions which the gods themselves created, then they placed a second lot of agents or soldiers here, and then a third, and all of them have also become corrupted. Eventually our “friends from the stars” (the gods, I presume) will replace them and us. And so to three questions:
A) Briefly, how do you know all this?
B) Are all these generations of aliens with us now in human form?
C) Did/do the gods not realize that if they make living creatures out of corruptible material, that material will be corrupted?
5) You say that you and the aliens share two common interests: 1) “Saving the world from humanity’s ongoing stupidity and 2) killing each other." Who is interested in killing whom? You say that the aliens are already corrupted, and so doesn’t this mean, Mr Bond, that only you can save the world?
6) “Beyond this we [you and the aliens] can’t agree on anything.” Please give us examples, briefly, of what you and the aliens disagree about.

Finally, I would like to echo all the sentiments in your paragraph beginning “The world once had a need for religion”. I too deplore people who “kill each other as they vie to decide who is the most loving and peaceful” (nicely put), and such beliefs do not sound strange to me at all. However, you seem to have a rather one-sided view of humanity. All your emphasis lies on its “ongoing stupidity”, and you make no mention of its ongoing quest for beauty and truth, its ongoing ingenuity and inventiveness, its ongoing capacity for sympathy, empathy, charity and love. Why must you have a “preference” for animals over humans – can’t you love both? I too love animals, but I have a confession to make: I actually love my wife, grown-up children, grandson and extended family and friends MORE than I love an unknown camel in the Sahara desert. And I believe that among the other 7 billion humans there are vast numbers who are equally loving and worthy of love. Admirable though it is to “practice the tenets of honesty, tolerance and peace”, I would admire you even more if your tenets included love for your fellow humans rather than a general condemnation of humanity because of its “ongoing stupidity”. Why this misanthropy? Are you perhaps a lapsed Catholic? But let me swiftly add a qualification to these observations: you’ve described yourself as an altruist and a gifted scientist (though actually a craftsman), whose name is “well-regarded by hundreds if not thousands”. This is indeed admirable, and what I’ve written above should not be taken as a criticism of your person (which would be highly presumptuous) but of your philosophy as you’ve expressed it, and of its implications.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Friday, November 04, 2011, 19:29 (4746 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: "Admirable though it is to “practice the tenets of honesty, tolerance and peace”, I would admire you even more if your tenets included love for your fellow humans rather than a general condemnation of humanity because of its “ongoing stupidity”. Why this misanthropy? Are you perhaps a lapsed Catholic?"

I would point out dhw that the things you truly love are those that you trust. Thus since I trust my wife, close friends and family, I love them.
When I was a youthful fool I used to trust strangers (what do you tell your children about them?), but then I learned they cannot be trusted. I'm not talking just about the liars, thieves, prostitutes and politicians (I know I'm being redundant), I am also talking about the murderers, the robbers and the rapists.

As a wise man, I know that if I said, "A man should not beat his baby to death with a baseball bat because he is mad at his wife", the vast majority would agree with me. Unfortunately, I also know that a few would not. That, in my mind, is problematic. Since I cannot trust strangers, I cannot love them (their children and pets are another story).

Though those in the medical field might incorrectly identify me as a philanthropist because of the value of the gifts that I have given them, they are wrong. I gave those gifts because I am an idealist and an altruist, not because I trust humanity (and therefore do not love them as a whole). I do love them as individuals, however.

I am not a lapsed Catholic, I can assure you. Their robes are red with the blood of saints. Their oppressive doctrine created the Dark Ages. It took the four horsemen and the one who is like a son of man, to shatter this church's (Satan's) hold on Europe. Should the Catholics, Jews or Muslims chose to oppress the advance of the truth (science) again, they will find that God cherishes the truth much more than the witless fools who wish to destroy it.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Saturday, November 05, 2011, 01:18 (4746 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: "Eventually our “friends from the stars” (the gods, I presume) will replace them and us. And so to three questions:
A) Briefly, how do you know all this?
B) Are all these generations of aliens with us now in human form?
C) Did/do the gods not realize that if they make living creatures out of corruptible material, that material will be corrupted?
5) You say that you and the aliens share two common interests: 1) “Saving the world from humanity’s ongoing stupidity and 2) killing each other." Who is interested in killing whom? You say that the aliens are already corrupted, and so doesn’t this mean, Mr Bond, that only you can save the world?
6) “Beyond this we [you and the aliens] can’t agree on anything.” Please give us examples, briefly, of what you and the aliens disagree about."


Firstly I should explain these were the Nazi's "friends from the stars" and this was a lie. They are no one's friend but their own. They have betrayed their creators and are desecrating sacred technologies by using them to wage an unsanctioned war against humanity. Thus they are the enemies of humanity and as a race they are walking very thin ice with their creators. But any one of them that has left the relative sterility of the Ark of heaven, may never go home. This world is under quarantine. The viruses that are here exist nowhere else in the galaxy and the creators (as well as these aliens) plan to keep it that way.

Briefly, I know all of this through direct experience, observation and deductive reasoning.

The aliens that are here now consist of the race of aliens themselves, the race of human-looking telepathic morons they made and those humans they currently possess as "puppets" of their (heaven's) technology. These aliens cannot directly breed with humans making unwanted hybrids (that problem was resolved long ago). They make these human-looking telepaths using restriction enzymes to transplant the genes coding for telepathy into human DNA. The DNA that they had to excise to make room for this structure inside the skull was not extraneous. Loosing that much brain matter left these telepathic hybrids stupid. But with spirit craft, these "morons" can still be given an eidetic memory.

To understand why life in matter as we understand it is corrupting, you must the concept of a necessary evil. In matter as we understand it, life is very hard. Instead of eating once a year or so, animals had to eat every day. Such things as hunger and pain (rarely experienced in heaven) were everyday occurrences here. Bound by gravity, movement took lots of energy, and being eroded by entropy required a huge load to be carried just for maintenance. Compared to heaven, this world was hell. Inspiring something to survive here required an intense survival instinct or the creature would just quit and lay down to die. This drive to survive is a necessary evil (as is pain, hunger and suffering).

In animals this drive to survive was successfully harnessed with instincts (heaven's laws). So animals did not kill members of their own species without need (not merely desire). They did not practice the tenets of pride or greed that men do, nor did they wage war. When higher brain function was added in apes, then humans, contact with these instincts was compromised by the corrupting influence of pride and flawed logic. Then of course there was always the issue of flawed brain development. There are many uncontrollable reasons for this, including just bad luck, but one can be controlled: how the expectant mother eats.

Every expectant mother knows she is now eating for two so she must eat more. But what most don't know is how frequently the fetus should be fed. Not only are essential oils, proteins and vitamins a must for sound fetal brain development, but that nutrition should be delivered in small meals every two hours just as if the fetus was a newborn. Delays in delivering nutrition in a timely fashion, impedes fetal brain (and body) development.

If it was up to me how and when this world is saved, it would have happened already. But it is not up to me. It is up to God (He has made that clear to me).

These aliens are trying to kill me for several reasons. The first, is that they want their technology back. The second is to shut me up. The third is because they know that I have the motive and means to kill them all.

There are many examples of things that I and these aliens disagree about. They are genocidal, while I am not. They "possess" their own children at the age of three years, rather than at the age of three months as commanded by heaven. They have betrayed their creators, while I would die rather than do such a thing. They have desecrated sacred technologies in using them as unsanctioned weapons. They intend to save the world from humanity, by killing humanity while that is not my way. They are also pathological liars, while I am quite the opposite. These are just a few of our differences in opinion.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Saturday, November 05, 2011, 07:21 (4746 days ago) @ Abel

In reading my last post, I see that I could have structured it much better. I apologize for that. The paragraphs were written in response to the questions that had been posed without any transition between them. In retrospect, I see I should have quoted each question prior to each response. It certainly would have clarified things.

Again, my apologies.

Intelligent design

by dhw, Saturday, November 05, 2011, 15:54 (4745 days ago) @ Abel

My thanks to Abel for answering some of my questions.

I must apologize for having more than my fair share of the human race’s stupidity, but the histories of Planets X and Earth have now become so complex that I need to reduce them to simple terms to have any hope of understanding them. The following is a plain narrative based on your posts and incorporating some of the apparent anomalies.

Once upon a time in the realms of dark matter – the nature of which is unknown to all humans except yourself – the first basic forms of life spontaneously but inevitably assembled themselves on low-entropy Planet X. These then spontaneously but inevitably evolved into mortal predators and prey which eventually evolved spontaneously but inevitably into gods who were mortal and immortal (= a “measure of immortality”). One day these gods climbed into their spacecraft and for some reason headed for Planet Earth, which they “bioformed” for life though its high entropy made it a kind of hell. (So what was the point of choosing it in the first place?) They began by constructing the same primitive forms as on Planet X, engineered them into predators and prey, and engineered these into humans (life and evolution on Earth being neither spontaneous nor inevitable). After lots of humans, they then created Adam and Eve (any relation?), so Genesis didn’t quite get its story right. (NB the Bible is a collection of myths, but thanks to your special gifts you know which sections are true.) At some point, the gods (also known as God) left the Earth, but stayed in touch – perhaps by telepathy? – and knew exactly what was going on. Pride, flawed logic and flawed brain development were corrupting humans – mainly not their fault, but expectant mothers could help by eating the right foods every two hours. The gods (God) didn’t like what they perceived, so they created some aliens who flew to Earth in their own spacecraft to teach humans a lesson. But instead, the humans taught THEM a lesson and they became just as corrupt. The gods then created and sent two more categories of aliens (if they were so worried, why for heaven’s sake didn’t they come themselves?) but all to no avail, and now there are lots of these corrupt aliens among us. They seem still to be aware of their mission, which is to put an end to human stupidity, but their not very attractive method would be to kill all humans. Luckily for us, you have somehow managed to get hold of their weapons, so they are out to kill you, but they know you can kill them instead. Also luckily for us, you have the means to save the world from human stupidity, but only the gods (God) can decide how and when. In a previous life you have actually seen the gods (God), who speak(s) to you directly, and clearly you are also in regular contact with the aliens, who “possess” their 3-year-old children. (I suspect we’d be better off not knowing what this means.)

Sorry about all the parentheses, please correct any mistakes, and once more forgive my obtuseness.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Saturday, November 05, 2011, 20:20 (4745 days ago) @ dhw
edited by unknown, Saturday, November 05, 2011, 20:27

In reading your questions again, I realized I only addressed the causes of my misanthropy and did not address the topic of human stupidity. I think my brain was protecting me from writing a book. Thank you brain.

The reasons for human stupidity are many fold.

1. People believe what people want to believe.

2. People perceive what they believe.

3. People are blinded by their own 'I's. (pride)

4. People see the world through social and moral circles of their own design, exacting "just us" rather than justice.

5. Men are primarily beasts of nature not logic.

6. Logic is like math. It is only as accurate and precise as its' least accurate and precise premise. A blemished premise (an imperfect truth) will lead to a flawed conclusion even when perfect logic is used.

7. Men let charismatic fools play upon their emotions to erode truthful laws and convictions. Over the ages, knowledge and civilization is thus lost.

8. The left brain conserves the survival drive by lying to itself and others routinely.


These are a few of the "whys" of human stupidity. Now let us look at a few examples.

Of course I could talk about all the knowledge that has been eroded and lost by this process of intellectual entropy. Or the way the laws of heaven have been eroded and remade by the clergy. And most certainly I could talk about all the wars that have been fought solely for money or pride. Or I could talk about the religious wars that the children of the book wage upon each other. And I certainly could address the concept of nations building enough weapons to destroy themselves not once over which might be reasonable, but they have enough to destroy the world hundreds of times over, which seems stupidly excessive.

Tell me do you feel more or less secure in knowing that all it takes is one charismatic fool to believe that God wants him to push the button and humanity is extinct. It seems surrender might be a better option. But a lot a people believe that their MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) policies are sane.Since humanity is the only race in this galaxy that would make the mistake of large-scale nuclear war, I doubt if they will make it twice.

I know that perhaps you are not worried about this, but I am. When I see leaders like Hitler persecute and kill millions while Germans cheer, it certainly shows what can happen when one person plays upon human stupidity. Of course you might not think that could happen here. And frankly if I had not watched it happen I would never believe that a mere actor could strike down our banking regulations, rewrite our economic theories with a catch phrase, strike down our constitutional rights and declare war on liberals while even the liberals cheered. If those liberal politicians weren't quite as stupid, they might have realized they were voting themselves out of office.

To enforce this "war" on liberals they struck down our right to illegal search and seizure. And since the government couldn't do it personally they did it by the transitive property of illegal search and seizure: use mercenaries. So they required employers to do it. Of course the legislative, executive and judicial branches were exempt from this "liberal witch hunt".

Now, being a rational man, I thought this egregious constitutional infringement would be struck down, and those legislators who were sworn to uphold those high ideals remanded for their crimes. But that did not happen. Our justice system decided searching a person's waste products was just as legal as searching his garbage. But is it really? Let's put aside the fact that I would have a problem with my employer searching my real garbage to determine if I was a liberal, Jew, Catholic, Muslim or any other reason. And I think that if I caught him, the police would at least talk to him about such an activity.
But now my employer can demand my garbage to see if I am one of those terrible people that the government had to declare a war on, just to stop them from committing a crime against themselves. Now you see how rights are eroded by stupidity. Now that we have made this step, the next is having your employer or the police having the right to knock on your door and demand any incriminating evidence you have and you have to surrender it or face additional penalties. We already see this. Though we do have the right to free speech and we do have the right not to incriminate ourselves, if an FBI agent asks if you robbed a bank and you lie, it will add five years to your sentence. So you better remain silent.

How many good men died fighting to secure these rights for their children and their nation? How much suffering have we endured to keep them? And yet Rights that were won and written in the blood of heroes, are lost beneath the ink of fools. This process of erosion is accelerating, as the Patriot Act can attest. And of all the fearful and treasonous politicians who voted for that act, I know of only one who honored the brave patriots who secured those rights with their blood by voting no. How quickly this world forgets its' heroes and destroys the deeds that they have done.

(continued next post)

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Saturday, November 05, 2011, 22:21 (4745 days ago) @ Abel

(continued from previous post)


Men have also abandoned the tariffs that used to protect their economies so that the rich may prosper from the suffering of the poor. And people cheer. Farmers in the U.S. lobby for a free trade agreement with Korea so they will have a new market to sell their relatively dirt-cheap grains and produce, and ignore the poor farmer in that country that must invest 170 man hours to their one to compete. They also ignore the needs of their neighbors who aren't farmers. Their manufacturing jobs are lost because they cannot compete with a cheap foreign labor pool. And these laborers within this pool don't even prosper. They are paid slave wages and the margin of price between the cost of the product and the price at which it is sold (which is typically just low enough to undercut the local competition) is pocketed by the rich, not the poor. There is nothing free about Free Market economies. They cost jobs and the lifeblood of money that must flow through their local economies. It is much more rational to establish a Fair Market economy, where tariffs are set according to the wages being paid to the local work force. That way the only way for these Third World sweat shop can reduce its' tariffs is by raising the wages of their workers.

Now a word of wisdom for this world's rich. You might think you want a two class economy but you don't. You stand upon the foundation that the middle class has built for you. When you destroy this foundation you will fall. Not because you are rich, but because there are so many poor, whose suffering you have caused, that loath you. It has happened many times. If you don't believe me, read your history books. Dates change, but people, not so much.

Now that I've touched upon the topic of our stupid weapons policies, laws and economies, let me address how poorly humanity is prepared for the future.

I admire the tenets of physicians, I really do. There is wisdom is such policies as "first do no harm" and "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" and one would do well do bide by them. And though as individuals some of us do practice these tenets our societies as a whole, do not practice them as rigorously as they should.

There are things that we know about this world and its' past. We know that the next disaster isn't so much an if but a when. We know that this world has geologic and solar cycles that it must contend with as well as an occasional meteorite. To add to this, we now potentially have man-made climate change creating droughts and floods across this world. And to this we must add this world's burgeoning population which now stands at 7 billion. A 2% growth rate would double that population to 14 billion by 2047 and to 28 billion by 2083. By 2119 there will be 56 billion, and in the year 2155 112 billion people on this planet.

But politicians would prefer to ignore the need to solve these problems so they can argue about what God wants while continuing to wage a war on our poor and our liberals which they have already won. I guess its' just for fun and money now.

But let us discuss how a wise leader would address these problems. Of course, a wise leader would restore the rights eroded and "evolved" by foolish "experts".
He would also rid this world of its' MAD policies since they are quite insane.
He would regulate the profit margins of those who barter the needs of his people, while letting those bartering their wants to compete freely. He would establish Fair Markets and rid this world of the evils and burdens exacted by Free Market values. He would tax the rich who are unwilling to support the poor to reclaim for his nation and his people the life's blood that they extract from his society. He would then tax them again in death, so that subversive economic nations do not rise to strike down the sage policies of the government which rightfully binds them. He will remember that men are not honest by nature, they are honest when they are watched. Therefore he would restore the banking regulations that were thrown down by greedy fools.

Then he would address global warming and provide for the ounce of prevention needed to secure the future well being of his people.

He would do this with simple things like converting old-single walled supertankers to a new purpose: "seeding" the barren deep seas with iron oxide. He would also create deep sea "rafts" filled with unwanted scrap iron, that will slowly dissolve providing a long-term supply of iron between super tanker runs. This iron in this relatively barren ecosystem will stimulate the growth of plankton, producing O2 and consuming CO2, helping to balance the equilibrium that man's activities has skewed. Not only this, but these plankton are the base for a whole food chain whose fish could feed the hungry stomachs of our people.

(continued next post)

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Saturday, November 05, 2011, 22:23 (4745 days ago) @ Abel

(continued from previous post)


This leader might also perceive the incidents at Fukishima, Chernobyl and Three Mile Island as a warning that more safety protocols are needed. And he would see the 700 nuclear plants upon this world as a threat, when something as simple as an extended power outage can cause a plant to melt down as it did at Fukishima. Combining his knowledge of this problem with his knowledge of solar cycles, might lead to the conclusion that one solar maximum, or worse, two separate cycles peaking together (as they do) might knock out our power supply for years due to solar flare activity. It would be bad enough that people couldn't watch tv, work on their computer or run their refrigerator for years, but without power our refineries would run out of fuel. How much diesel do we have stored? Do we have enough to run our farm machines and trucks needed to get food to market? How will people get to work? But with 700 nuclear plants on their way to a meltdown, I don't think we'll have to worry about such things for long.

So this leader would require these plants to at the very least have enough fuel on site to provide for a controlled shut down of the plant. And enough to power to provide for the cooling pumps forever. In addition, replacement transformers and other equipment should be maintained onsite to replace equipment that cannot be adequately shielded from these electromagnetic pulses or isolated with high-speed switches. The long-term power requirements for these circulation pumps should be supplied by a fuel cell which runs on natural gas (hopefully that can still be supplied), windmills and solar cells and/or a smaller nuclear generator (like that in a sub). When this event occurs (not if) do you think this world's "great" leaders and thinkers will have provided for humanities ongoing survival? I don't.

Hopefully this "legendary" ruler can use his wisdom and charisma to sell his people on the hard choices that they must make together so that they can save themselves from the suffering that will be caused by overpopulation. Already some countries are short of water and some of food. This world feeds itself by harnessing the power of oil. When it runs out, people will starve by the billions. So eventually, humanity must electrify, not only its' cars, but its' agriculture too.

These are all tragedies that can be prevented.

These are just a few of the contemporary high points of humanity's ongoing stupidity. As I said, I could write a book, perhaps even a library on human stupidity. But if you read carefully enough, you'll find lots of others have already done just that.

Finally I'd like to apologize for my writing skills. I do try, but I have not been blessed with the opportunities to educate myself in art of writing like you have dhw. If you read as much as I do, you might realize that even highly educated scientists have problems with the written word, and thus not a single Pulizer among them. But I do have hopes for you.

Unintelligent design

by dhw, Sunday, November 06, 2011, 17:12 (4744 days ago) @ Abel

Abel has delivered a strong sermon on the subject of human stupidity.

I doubt if you’ll find many of us disagreeing with this splendidly compiled catalogue of human follies. My wife and I discuss them frequently as we read the papers over breakfast or watch the news on TV, and I can honestly say that I don’t know of anyone in my personal circle who is not aware of the appalling things humans do to other humans and to the rest of the world. I’ve even used the same subject as a conclusion to the brief guide with which I opened this website – the section called “A mad world”. David Turell (the retired MD whom you wished the best of luck in his intended pursuit of a medical career) has actually written a well researched and convincingly argued book entitled Government and Political Spin, exposing certain aspects of our collective insanity. So rest assured, Abel, that you are far from being alone in your awareness and condemnation of human stupidity.

Unfortunately, not many of us are in a position to set the world to rights. Short of entering into politics or the military, or acquiring the divine weaponry you claim to have at your disposal, we can do little to gain even a moderate amount of power. However, since you “have some hopes” for my writing skills (thank you), let me see if I can persuade you to use your influence with the gods in a slightly less misanthropic manner.

Firstly, I see vast numbers of humans as victims rather than perpetrators. The follies you’ve catalogued, from economic mismanagement to the potential destruction of the planet, are the direct result of the ignorance and greed endemic in our political, social, commercial and financial institutions. Crime, social injustice and all the other ills you mention have always been present in human society, but what is different now is the sheer scale. Perhaps it’s all gone too far to be stopped, but some victims are fighting back. Your misanthropy pays no attention to the Arab Spring, in which ordinary people have risen up and even sacrificed their lives in order to topple a vicious, self-serving establishment. (Perhaps it will all end in tears, but I’m extolling the human spirit here.) You ignore the worldwide protests of the “Occupy” movement and, going back in time, the mass protests against wars in Vietnam and Iraq, and against nuclear weapons. You ignore the ongoing quest for truth and beauty that I mentioned earlier. You ignore the immense strides that even our flawed social systems have made in caring for the poor, the sick, the old. And you ignore the charities and countless individual acts of philanthropy that demonstrate the caring side of human nature. None of these invalidate your account of human stupidity, but your picture seems to me lop-sided. Of course we must be wary, but I don’t believe that all strangers are evil, stupid or uncaring, and I suspect (naively?) that there is just as much good in the human world as there is bad.

There’s another slant that I would ask you to consider in the light of your beliefs. You said that your gods deliberately chose this high-entropy planet for what I assume was some kind of experiment (you haven’t told us their motive for starting life here). It was therefore they who deliberately engineered the concept of predator and prey, whereby self-interest became the key to survival. And you’ve told us that “men are primarily beasts of nature not logic”. The pattern of natural self-interest was thus established long, long before humans walked the planet, and that is the principle that underlies virtually every instance of human “stupidity” on your list. If your gods had not wanted it this way, why did they create the kill-or-die code in the first place, and why choose a planet where the need to kill was even more urgent than on their own? As an agnostic, I recognize these inherited traits and marvel all the more at the human ability to overcome them. If I had your beliefs, though, I’d wonder why the gods, who were so upset that they sent three lots of aliens to correct the situation they’d created in the first place, didn’t take steps to correct it themselves (they obviously have no transport or communication problems), and have left it to you to fight off the aliens who want to kill us all.

Finally, there is no need to decry your own writing skills! You have expressed yourself with admirable clarity, and in this case I would also say with admirable logic. I just wish there was more balance in your picture of humankind, and I wish there was more coherence and credibility in your account of divine and human history, which I attempted to summarize in my last post. But such differences of opinion are the basis of all our discussions on this forum.

Unintelligent design

by Abel @, Sunday, November 06, 2011, 20:47 (4744 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: "Unfortunately, not many of us are in a position to set the world to rights. Short of entering into politics or the military, or acquiring the divine weaponry you claim to have at your disposal, we can do little to gain even a moderate amount of power. However, since you “have some hopes” for my writing skills (thank you), let me see if I can persuade you to use your influence with the gods in a slightly less misanthropic manner."

I have seen this world changed one word at a time many times, and so have you. Whether it was the Magna Carta, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, these great works of words, changed the world forever. A word of wisdom whispered in a prepared mind is much like a seed. If the mind is fertile it will grow into a tree whose branches will bear fruit that all can eat. But, remember, it may take years for that tree to grow, even decades, so a gardener of ideas must learn to be patient and humble. For when that tree grows, it shall be the tree that is admired and its' fruits cherished for all of time, long after the gardener has fertilized the world that he has tended.

As a skilled wordsmith, you are more "divinely" armed than I, dhw. You can change this world with simple words and simple ideas that need only be whispered, not shouted from rooftops. But remember. somethings change very slowly. Some ideas take generations to catch on. "Old dogs don't learn new tricks" as some say. Thus even though we "freed" our slaves, they were not truly "free" for generations.. This is one of the reasons that the Buddists call death "the greatest teacher".

There is one other thing you should understand about planting ideas and lifting them up. Each one, if it is truthful and useful, can be like a "crutch of understanding." You can certainly offer it to a man, but do not expect that it will affect the way that he walks. Our minds guard our survival well with the veils of our delusions. Men will believe what they want to, so they can muster the drive they need to survive. Thus a crutch of understanding that is too heavy to bear is subconsciously cast aside by belief alone, certainly not unblemished logic or science.

In this world, choose the crutches that you carry well, lest the weight of too much understanding burden your stride, darken your pride and make you realize this paradise is really a kind of hell. And since it is a kind of hell, it has a need for gifted gardeners, like yourself: those that can plant the seeds of truth and understanding that will grow into great trees. So that perhaps, just perhaps, one day this world will be a wise man's paradise too.

Unintelligent design

by dhw, Monday, November 07, 2011, 12:30 (4744 days ago) @ Abel

I pointed out to Abel that short of entering politics or the military, ordinary mortals like me can do little to exercise power.

You have quoted the Magna Carta, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as examples of how words can change the world forever. Every one of these is a political document. But I’m not going to argue against the general thesis that words can change lives. The Bible, the Koran, Das Kapital, the works of Shakespeare might be better examples. Nor am I going to argue against your beautifully phrased homily on the subject of planting ideas. I will, however, very briefly argue against the image of myself as a gifted gardener, not only because my skills are confined to mowing the lawn whereas my wife is a fabulous planter of seeds and bulbs, but also because my figurative gardening is generally confined to explaining why I don’t believe or disbelieve. On the positive side, I can offer what seems to me a more balanced view of humanity than yours, and I would like to think that my approach encourages open-mindedness and tolerance, but it’s hardly original and I can offer little else with which to change the world!

Flattered though I am by the gardening image, I would much prefer it if you would respond directly to the various points I keep raising with regard to your history of gods and humans. On Saturday 5 November at 15.54 I wrote what I considered a fair summary, and asked you to correct any mistakes. I regard this as crucial to further discussions, because my account suggests inconsistencies and hugely problematical claims by yourself. Sorry if this sounds like badgering, but I have a penchant for clarity and coherence. I even try to mow the lawn in straight lines!

Unintelligent design

by David Turell @, Monday, November 07, 2011, 15:12 (4743 days ago) @ dhw

Flattered though I am by the gardening image, I would much prefer it if you would respond directly to the various points I keep raising with regard to your history of gods and humans. On Saturday 5 November at 15.54 I wrote what I considered a fair summary, and asked you to correct any mistakes. I regard this as crucial to further discussions, because my account suggests inconsistencies and hugely problematical claims by yourself. Sorry if this sounds like badgering, but I have a penchant for clarity and coherence. I even try to mow the lawn in straight lines!

I definitely mow in straight and parallel lines. Definitely labor-saving compared to circular. And I have the same complaints about Abel. When I have pointedly made a comment that deserves a reply, I am ignored, except he knew of me so slightly he thought I was headed to medical school in the future (young again!) I am not insulted, but since I am the hard-nosed scientist here who accepts that science proves God, I think Abel's entries here are cloud-soft fluff and he is definitely pulling legs! Either that or he is a free-roving compensated pychotic, in the model of Richard Nixon who was obviously a compensated paranoid schizo.

Unintelligent design

by Abel @, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 02:19 (4743 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by unknown, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 02:26

David: "And I have the same complaints about Abel. When I have pointedly made a comment that deserves a reply, I am ignored, except he knew of me so slightly he thought I was headed to medical school in the future (young again!)."

I have reviewed your other entries and am uncertain of what comment that you made that you felt deserved a response. In addition, I am not intentionally ignoring either of your questions. If you both review the barrage of new questions and requests for clarification and reiteration, I have received prior to completely answering your old questions, you can see why I might be confused as to which questions should currently be answered.

I do not feel I need to apologize for thinking you were not yet a practicing physician David, since it was you who led me to that conclusion. A practicing physician would have access to a microscope, and what are the chances that a retired physician still lives close enough to his medical school to have easiest access to its' resources rather than some local college?

I came to a logical conclusion based on the premises that you gave me. There was no slight.

Unintelligent design

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 05:24 (4743 days ago) @ Abel


I do not feel I need to apologize for thinking you were not yet a practicing physician David, since it was you who led me to that conclusion. A practicing physician would have access to a microscope, and what are the chances that a retired physician still lives close enough to his medical school to have easiest access to its' resources rather than some local college?

I came to a logical conclusion based on the premises that you gave me. There was no slight.

Final ly , a rise out of you!I said I had a microscope from my medical school years and had loaned it to several med students. What could be more clear. I don't think you intentially slighted me. I think you are doing muddled reading of the entries here, while you try to advance your science fiction theories. You are either a fraud or beliving your own theories somewhat psychotic. Prove me wrong by producing some valid proof of what you claim. I think everyone is being very polite to you, as we try to be on this website, but I think you are wasting everyone's time from the valuable subjects we usually pursue. I have revealed everything about myself as a published author, a retired physician. I have litle patience in the way you make statements about yourself that are self-agandizing and reveal nothing of substance. You can google me and find our everything about me. Let me google you, if you dare!

Unintelligent design

by Abel @, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 05:48 (4743 days ago) @ David Turell

David: "I have ny binoc from Med School, loaned out over the years to many med students, so they did not have to buy one. oil emersion up to 1,500 power. Mail away!"


David this is exactly what you said to me, not what you remember you said to me. There was nothing "muddled" about my interpretation whatsoever. What was "muddled" is what you said to me. I know nothing about your past, I judge you by your words, as you should judge me. I have just provided a tool to study M-matter, to resolve any questions that you or anyone has concerning its' nature and existence. I believe this is the proof that you demanded. And since it represents a Nobel Prize to the first to use it, it is a gift of some merit. Not to mention the theory of everything, dark matter abiogenesis, and theory of spacial relativity that I am attempting to present in this forum. If you do not wish to read that is up to you, but I have better things to do than address your derision, polite or not.

Unintelligent design

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 15:27 (4742 days ago) @ Abel

David: "I have my binoc from Med School, loaned out over the years to many med students, so they did not have to buy one. oil emersion up to 1,500 power. Mail away!"


David this is exactly what you said to me, not what you remember you said to me. There was nothing "muddled" about my interpretation whatsoever.


If I 'loaned my binoc from medical school for many years' how old am I? You do not read closely. And I've made it quite clear I don't believe anything you have stated. I've googled m- matter since I've never seen it in scientific literature. No reference. If you have published nothing, and simply empty your thoughts here, why should we accept them?

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Monday, November 07, 2011, 20:20 (4743 days ago) @ dhw
edited by unknown, Monday, November 07, 2011, 20:50

You have asked for a critique of the summary of my beliefs that I have provided. However I see before I address that, I should address what is a problem now, and will continue to be a problem in the future: the existence and nature of dark matter. Until this premise is empirically studied, the observations of a single observer will never be fully accepted even if the theories that I have provided here are proven to be true using the tools of math.

I believe I have devised an experiment that can be repeated by our scientists all over the world to confirm my observations. This is important: because even if I step forward to demonstrate the dark matter technology that I possess repeatedly under controlled circumstances to different groups of scientists, at some future date their observations will be doubted and the whole incident considered to be some sort of elaborate fraud like the lunar landing is believed to be by some today.

As I stipulated before, I observed that dark matter tends to associate in apparently homochiralic pools of gaseous and liquid crystals by nature. These pools are in turn loosely associated with normal matter of their own type. Thus one could expect to find dark matter water in the ocean, dark matter iron in iron ore, dark matter copper in copper ore, dark matter salts in salt beds, etc. Detection of these dark matter elements should be possible using existing technology. That technology would simply consist of two equal lengths of fiber optic cables, a full spectrum light transmitter, and a very sensitive spectrophotometer.

A cable immersed or buried in naturally occurring water, salt or ore will soon be penetrated by these dark matter molecules and elements. Their presence can be confirmed by analysis of the full spectrum of light transmitted by the cable. This spectrum should confirm the presence of M-matter of same variety as the cable is immersed in. The second cable should be kept above the medium as a control and then switched with the immersed cable to confirm the observations. Shorter cables can used to confirm the way this matter tends to gather into a patchwork quilt of pure matter types even when found in a mixed medium like the soil of a valley floor.

As I mentioned before, the ability of men to retain their understanding of the truth is measured by their ability to empirically test it. It is my hope that this tool will give them that understanding.

I will critique dhw's synopsis in my next post since I lack space on this one.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Monday, November 07, 2011, 23:01 (4743 days ago) @ Abel

dhw: "Once upon a time in the realms of dark matter – the nature of which is unknown to all humans except yourself – the first basic forms of life spontaneously but inevitably assembled themselves on low-entropy Planet X."

Since you have also addressed your desire in an earlier post that I compare and contrast my theory of dark matter abiogenesis with its' more conventional counterpart, I shall try to do so now.

In my last post I addressed the need for others to empirically explore the nature of dark matter, and supplied the means to do so. I hope that, eventually, this will make the existence and nature of dark matter apparent to all, even most skeptics.

When asked what scientists would look for when trying to find alien life on Mars they said, "negative entropy". This is the fundamental definition of life. Life harnesses free energy from its' environment, converts that energy to work that in turn is used to assemble the materials from which that life is made. High positive entropy requires a high metabolic load to overcome it, letting matter "live" by definition. Therefore life has a greater chance of overcoming the erosive effects of entropy in a low entropy environment, also by definition. So if low entropy matter exists (as now can be proven) then life had the greatest chance of evolving within that type of matter. This is the first advantage that dark matter abiogenesis has over conventional abiogenesis.

The second advantage this theory has is one of matter and time. When the existence of dark matter is proven to your satisfaction, you will have to consider that it does consist of the vast majority of the matter in our universe. But until then lets discuss conventional matter and the probability that life evolved somewhere else first rather than on earth. On earth, we have two hundred million years on an earth sized-ball of matter before life evolved. However the milky-way galaxy is estimated to have 500 million planets in the habitable zone. Let's say 100 million of these are suitable for life as we know it. By conservative estimates, life began on earth when the milky way was about 4 billion years old. Using this model, I have 20 times as much time and 100 million more chances of life evolving somewhere else first rather than earth. This means that, in conventional matter, life is 2 billion times more likely to have evolved on another planet(s) first other than earth. If you were at the track, which horse would you bet on?

dhw: These then spontaneously but inevitably evolved into mortal predators and prey which eventually evolved spontaneously but inevitably into gods who were mortal and immortal (= a “measure of immortality”).

Here I will address what a "measure of immortality" might be for an organism made of EM-matter. For a organism with single stranded RNA, as simple organisms are, we are talking about a lifespan of around 4000 years. Multistranded RNA or DNA creatures made of EM matter could survive for 40,000 years or more.

"dhw: One day these gods climbed into their spacecraft and for some reason headed for Planet Earth, which they “bioformed” for life though its high entropy made it a kind of hell. (So what was the point of choosing it in the first place?) "

This civilization could be so ancient that its' first move to another bioformed planet might have been an exodus from their own to escape a dying sun. They may be so ancient that they have made such an exodus on more than one occasion.

Life was started in matter as we understand it, so that the creators could master this form of matter and use the technologies that that mastery provided. Intelligent life with hands were the tools they made. These "tools" could be "possessed" by their technology to manipulate matter which was otherwise very difficult to manage. Eventually, the creativity and design of these "tools" came to be desired in heaven. This creativity also gave the creators things that they had never dreamed: living gems. Things that were not only wonderful because of the beauty of their design, but by the beauty and creativity of their nature. Laughter, rarely heard in heaven, was born as were stories, songs, creativity, fundamental technologies and a labor force to do the simple things that needed to be done to run every society.

(continued next post)

Intelligent design

by dhw, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 16:14 (4742 days ago) @ Abel

Abel has begun to respond to my attempt at summarizing his beliefs.

You say: “Life has a greater chance of overcoming the erosive effects of entropy in a low entropy environment”. Obviously. But that doesn’t explain abiogenesis – it only explains a longer lifespan for existing creatures.

Your statistical argument – billions of planets here, there and everywhere – is precisely the one used by Dawkins to prove that life was bound to happen somewhere, so who needs God? Your theory is that it happened elsewhere first. That doesn’t mean that beings from elsewhere must have come to Earth and created us! Nor does it make abiogenesis inevitable on Planet X but impossible on Planet Earth.

Having assumed that there is such a place as a low-entropy, dark matter Planet X, you reckon the gods could have a life span of 40,000 years or more. It’s believed that life started on Earth approximately 3.7 billion years ago. So if your gods created life on Earth, they are now into at the very least their 100,000th generation since they created the first bacteria. It took them thousands of generations to get to us, by which time you’d have thought they’d have been pretty badly affected by our high entropy. Or do you think later generations guided evolution by remote control from…wherever they went to after their sun(s) had died and they’d visited Earth? And how the heck did they find out about our laughter, stories, songs, creativity etc.? Intergalactic TV (invisible to earthlings)? And how do you know they never laughed or told stories or sang songs? You are now talking of “heaven”, which has all kinds of religious connotations, but your gods are mortal and they come from a dark-matter planet, so I don’t understand this sudden reference to “heaven”.

There is no need for you to answer these questions, as they are only meant to illustrate why I find the whole scenario unconvincing to the point of being unbelievable. David has dismissed it all as science fiction, and asks for proof of your claims. You have told us that your knowledge is based on “direct experience, observation and deductive reasoning”. Observation often varies according to the observer, and deductive reasoning has led David to believe in God and George to disbelieve, but “direct experience” might be more enlightening. May I be so bold as to ask you outright precisely what “direct experience” you have had in support of your claims.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 19:47 (4742 days ago) @ dhw
edited by unknown, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 19:56

David: "I don't believe anything you have stated. I've googled m- matter since I've never seen it in scientific literature. No reference. If you have published nothing, and simply empty your thoughts here, why should we accept them?"

Before I move forward let's step back a bit. I told you both that I was a truthful, altruistic, idealist who also mistrusted humanity. I also told you that I was a gardener of truths and wisdom. I then gave away a Nobel Prize to that industrious soul who builds the first M-matter detector, and already David wants published research derived from such a device. I told you that you have to be patient. But what is most important about this act is that I did it. I do not talk like a gardener, I walk like one. So whether or not you believe that this device will work is unimportant, because I do. I believe that I just gave away fame and fortune, when I am wonder every day if I will get a job in time to save my own home.


In order to explain my experiences with dark matter I will also have to tell you of the first Nobel Prize I gave away. It has yet to be won, but the trees that I planted are soon to bear fruit, and then I shall applaud the accomplishments of my heroes, my soldiers and shall honor them all. The "seed" that I planted in their minds was a simple seven page parable about cats and the challenges of keeping them. This paper had no references and it was written by a simple craftsman. Many minds were closed and threw those truths away, some even cursed the author for wasting their precious time. But a few, with prepared and fertile minds, recognized the truth for what it was and they used it. And thus cancer was cured. The understanding of this simple theorum is being advanced to treat most diseases, and represents the medical science of our future. When I am done here, I will return to my students and resolve that which I promised would be problematic: adapting the strategy to systemic applications.

So David if you go looking for this author's published and peer-reviewed papers, you will find none. But you will find the thousands of the trees that he has planted.

I bring this up now not because I want to, but because it is pertinent. I am no fan of source credibility. Ideas should be judged fairly, not influenced by the status of the author. A man is no more smart, wise or truthful then he is right now, not days, weeks or years ago. Judge a man by his words and deeds, only then will you know him.

dhw: "May I be so bold as to ask you outright precisely what “direct experience” you have had in support of your claims."

To keep a very long story short, the aliens that I have mentioned, wished to create a false Messiah figure to put a religious spin on the war that they planned to wage. Initially they planned to use the pope, thus all the UFO fanfare when he showed up in Mexico. Everything was being set in place for a world-wide assault set to begin on 6/6/06, but something happened: a better false Messiah was found. Someone in India was using methylglyoxal to cure the majority of the stage four cancers that they were treating. Knowing that the world expected the Messiah to be the one that cured cancer, they went seeking the source of the cure. Unfortunately for them, the researcher that I sent the paper to there had died of a heart attack prior to their arrival, and all that they could glean was that a man from America had e-mailed him and "explained the mechanism well". This led to a search of patents filed in the U.S. using this mechanism. By a more circuitous route than I would have preferred, the man that filed that patent sent them to me.

The spirit telepaths that they sent to assault my mind opened my eyes to the world of dark matter. I could see it clearly for twenty-one months. I soon could feel and move dark matter too. Thus I could observe it and experiment with it for some time. These aliens are telepaths, while I am an empath. That allowed me to "overhear" conversations that were not meant for me, allowing me to piece together much of their plans.

Because these aliens could read my mind they knew how pathologically truthful I was, and commented about it several times (it is uncommon I guess). Still even though they knew that I was being truthful about who I believed myself to be, they also believed me just deluded when I told them a simple truth.

These aliens attempted to make me a "puppet" and that attempt failed. The attempt failed because I am what I told them I am, neither human, nor do I possess a soul. I told them truthfully that I was the Angel of Death, and now they believe. Because I live, and they do not, I now possess the technology that they installed in my hands (it works) and feet so that the "puppet" me could masquerade as the Messiah. I observed this technology as it was installed, as well as the possession technology devices that were overlaid on my nervous system to "override" my brain and motor controls. .

This is my direct experience and the reason I can tell you so much about things that you could not otherwise possibly hope to know or understand.

I don't expect you to believe me, even though I could quite easily pass a polygraph test. It is much easier to believe me simply deluded.

Intelligent design

by dhw, Wednesday, November 09, 2011, 16:55 (4741 days ago) @ Abel

Abel has told us about abiogenesis on low-entropy Planet X, the spontaneous evolution from bacteria to predators and prey, and ultimately to gods, who then came down to high-entropy Earth, created life, and supervised its evolution from bacteria to predators and prey and ultimately to human beings. These gods can live to the age of 40,000 years or more, but presumably at some time one of the 100,000 or so generations of gods decided to leave our planet. They found out somehow that we humans were messing things up, so they sent aliens to teach us a lesson, but they got corrupted too. They want (or wanted – see below) to kill Abel. I asked him for details about the direct experience that has given him knowledge of all these events.

In reply, you have told us that you have found a cure for cancer***, and the Indians who used it searched for the source of the cure, as the world expects that person to be the Messiah. Eventually, their search led to alien spirit telepaths being sent (by whom?) to assault your mind, and for 21 months this somehow enabled you to feel and move dark matter and to overhear their plans. They wanted to make you a “puppet” Messiah, so they installed certain technology in your hands and feet (did you let them, or did they overpower you?). You told them truthfully that you are not human but are the Angel of Death (presumably only as far as they are concerned, because you are here to help save humankind, and are against their plan to kill us). “Now they believe. Because I live, and they do not.” I’m not sure how even a spirit telepath can believe anything when it’s dead, or did you tell them this just before you killed them? In your post of 05 November at 01.18, you told us “these aliens are trying to kill me for several reasons” (present tense). Did you kill them all in the last couple of days, or are you referring to a different lot of aliens? All this technology and experience has obviously given you immense knowledge. I presume, for instance, that you overheard them recounting the whole history of how the gods evolved on Planet X, came to Earth etc. How else would you have learned about it? But I wonder who made you the Angel of Death and the possible saviour of humankind in the first place. You are not human, and you are not one of those corrupt aliens. Are you, then, the real Messiah sent by the gods, as opposed to the puppet the aliens wanted to install?

You don’t expect us to believe you. And it is “much easier to believe me simply deluded.” You will, I’m sure, be used to a sceptical response, but the truth should be comprehensible even to stupid humans like myself. As you are not human, presumably you did not have human parents. Would it be asking too much of you to tell us who actually gave birth to the Angel of Death/saviour of humankind, who brought you up, and where? I’m wondering if there may be a parallel here with Jesus, but I don’t recall Jesus telling the world about gods from Planet X who die at the age of around 40,000.

*** I have googled methylglyoxal, and its use in cancer treatment goes back over 50 years (long, long before 6/6/06, unless you mean 1906) to a Dr William Koch:
www.cancerfightingstrategies.com/methylglyoxal.html
He influenced a different approach by a Dr. Albert Szent-Gyorgi, but I can’t find that particular website now. Both men were Nobel prizewinners. Do those names mean anything to you?

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 09, 2011, 18:14 (4741 days ago) @ dhw


In reply, you have told us that you have found a cure for cancer***,


*** I have googled methylglyoxal, and its use in cancer treatment goes back over 50 years (long, long before 6/6/06, unless you mean 1906) to a Dr William Koch:
www.cancerfightingstrategies.com/methylglyoxal.html

He influenced a different approach by a Dr. Albert Szent-Gyorgi, but I can’t find that particular website now. Both men were Nobel prizewinners. Do those names mean anything to you?

William Koch is most famous for his "Koch's postulates". In simple terms: find a bug that seems to be associatgd with a disease and use that bug to reproduce that disease and you have proven the cause!

Methylglyoxal is cytotoxic and is currently being researched for possible anti-cancer use.

Abel has 'found' nothing new.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Thursday, November 10, 2011, 02:43 (4741 days ago) @ dhw

dhw:*** I have googled methylglyoxal, and its use in cancer treatment goes back over 50 years (long, long before 6/6/06, unless you mean 1906) to a Dr William Koch:
www.cancerfightingstrategies.com/methylglyoxal.html
He influenced a different approach by a Dr. Albert Szent-Gyorgi, but I can’t find that particular website now. Both men were Nobel prizewinners. Do those names mean anything to you?

I am familiar with these names, as I am with many others who where unable to adequately explain their theories to the satisfaction of skeptics. Otto Warburg would be more appropriate for this discussion though. He was the discoverer of the "Warburg effect", also called aerobic glycolysis. Experimentation with glycolytic inhibitors began soon after that, years before the men that you mentioned. There are many others that used glycolytic inhibitors too, but they could not adequately explain their mechanism of action to the satisfaction of their peers so their work was dismissed as anecdotal and that work abandoned. Without understanding others did not believe. And without study and understanding this tool can never be mastered. Until men knew that it would work because they could understand why it must work, and why it would always work forever, they did not rush blindly into the woods of another's reason. My work provided a simple light to guide them in the form of a truthful theorum.

dhw: "As you are not human, presumably you did not have human parents. Would it be asking too much of you to tell us who actually gave birth to the Angel of Death/saviour of humankind, who brought you up, and where?"

I had meant to discuss this later, at a more appropriate time, however I will discuss it now.

As I told you before, it is my belief that Adam and Eve were the last race placed upon this world by the creators. But I did not tell you what they were and why they were placed here. They were placed here for two reasons, the first was make the human race more empathic by blending their genome with them, making them more responsive to the emotions of others. The second was to create a race of avatars for the sentinels to walk in. Adam and Eve and all the children they bore together were full-blooded empaths. Eve carried two strands of DNA, one coded for an alpha male (a conquering king) and a nurturing male (a craftsman). Adam, of course, provided the necessary Y gene required for this genotype/phenotype. This genome has been dispersed through humanity, creating many semi-empathic hybrids, and very, very occasionally, a full-blooded empath. I am one of these.

If you looked at me, you would say that I was white, but if you measured my skull you would say I was Chinese, and if you looked at my blood you would say that I was black (my red blood cells are heterocyclic). And somehow, as if these three races had been "mirrored" microscopically, you would see that each of my cells have three nuclei, not one. Only then, might you suspect that I am not human.

I was born in California, to a human mother. I remember the event well. This is where I currently reside.

[i]dhw:"In reply, you have told us that you have found a cure for cancer***, and the Indians who used it searched for the source of the cure, as the world expects that person to be the Messiah. Eventually, their search led to alien spirit telepaths being sent (by whom?) to assault your mind, and for 21 months this somehow enabled you to feel and move dark matter..." [/i]

I said that I wrote "a simple seven page parable about cats and the challenges of keeping them". I also went on to to add that it contained a theorum. I had nothing to do with how this theorum was applied to defeat cancer or who chose to apply it. I also said that the aliens, not the Indians, went searching for the source of the cure and that "they" (meaning the aliens) sent the spirit telepaths (alien M-matter lifeforms).

Once I could "see" dark matter, I eventually learned to manipulate it. It was possible for me to manipulate it because I am an archangel. This is something people cannot do without the proper tools.

dhw: " They wanted to make you a “puppet” Messiah, so they installed certain technology in your hands and feet (did you let them,...? )."

The spirit telepaths that had been testing my convictions for days with their attacks, finally said that this was all some sort of test to vest me. At this time I was just beginning to be able to see dark matter and had no clue that I could manipulate it. These telepaths said they wanted to make me the Messiah and I said no. I told them that I was not the Messiah, they were looking for Jesus. I already had a job, I was to cure cancer and disease and they mocked me. They told me that if I did not take the job they were going to destroy the world by hurling rocks at meteorite-like speeds into our dams and cities. If I did not talk to this world about saving itself from itself, they would act in its' best interests with an act of genocide. Even then, I told them I would not lie. I would speak on their behalf but I would not say that I was the Messiah. I agreed only to speak as a messenger. Even then, I knew one of you would believe that I was the Antichrist and kill me. I knew they would, but that was the choice I made.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Thursday, November 10, 2011, 04:57 (4741 days ago) @ Abel

dhw: "You told them truthfully that you are not human but are the Angel of Death (presumably only as far as they are concerned, because you are here to help save humankind, and are against their plan to kill us). “Now they believe. Because I live, and they do not.” I’m not sure how even a spirit telepath can believe anything when it’s dead, or did you tell them this just before you killed them? In your post of 05 November at 01.18, you told us “these aliens are trying to kill me for several reasons” (present tense). Did you kill them all in the last couple of days, or are you referring to a different lot of aliens?"

When I was talking about those that believe me to be the Angel of Death, I was talking about the many survivors of our continuing conflict (spirits, aliens and hybrids). These aliens have primarily lost hybrids in their attempts to kill me, not members of their own species. They cannot risk loosing too many of their own, or they will also loose the viable gene pool they need to successfully colonize this world.

These aliens are breeding more hybrids. The ones that attack me now come intermittently. I can only assume they are being pulled from earth-side operations where they have been masquerading as humans.

dhw: :"But I wonder who made you the Angel of Death and the possible saviour of humankind in the first place. You are not human, and you are not one of those corrupt aliens. Are you, then, the real Messiah sent by the gods, as opposed to the puppet the aliens wanted to install?"

The creators that made humanity are the same creators that made the archangels. These creators dwell primarily in heaven. Archangels are the beings that they made to police their world, while archangels of the trinity were beings they made to educate and civilize this one. God (the Greater Metatron) is the general of the Seven Sentinels and the two captains that assist Him.

I have always been the servant, never the king. A Messiah must be proud enough to lead, while I am barely proud enough to breathe. I am the merely the craftsman that heaven made to lay the foundations of civilizations and undermine the tyrannies of kings. I do this by gardening. In life, I plant seeds, while in death, I pull weeds. Because of this, I am hated and feared by even those that I have saved. So I can assure you, people do not wish to see me, and I do not wish to be seen.

Intelligent design

by BBella @, Thursday, November 10, 2011, 17:44 (4740 days ago) @ Abel

The creators that made humanity are the same creators that made the archangels. These creators dwell primarily in heaven. Archangels are the beings that they made to police their world, while archangels of the trinity were beings they made to educate and civilize this one. God (the Greater Metatron) is the general of the Seven Sentinels and the two captains that assist Him.

I personally do not find the above hard to believe since, as I said, I am a fan of the program, Ancient Aliens, and have heard their take on the above possibilities, which is one reason I do watch the movie is because they are talking of possibilities, not necessarily facts. I had the belief of ancient aliens and the ideas posed on the show long before the movie. Many of mankinds mythical beings written about and passed down in our lore, religions, etc., I believe, came from somewhere other than our creative imaginations. So when you speak above of "heaven" (you may have answered this before), is that a place above as in "the heavens" like Alpha Centari, the Pleiades, Orions Belt, etc., or another dimension, or what/where?

You may have also answered this as well; is it your understanding that the "Soup" of dark and light matter is the true creator of all that IS? And is it, in your opinion, considered ONE intelligent being? Or just a soup of chance?

I have always been the servant, never the king. A Messiah must be proud enough to lead, while I am barely proud enough to breathe. I am the merely the craftsman that heaven made to lay the foundations of civilizations and undermine the tyrannies of kings.

Was it by your birth of chance or by specific creation that you were made by "heaven" for this purpose? Is your use of the word "heaven" like saying where and what we all were created from? The above almost sounds as if you are saying you were/are Jesus since he too was called a craftsman and laid the foundations, etc., and he too was said to be humble.

I do this by gardening. In life, I plant seeds, while in death, I pull weeds. Because of this, I am hated and feared by even those that I have saved.

Again, the above sounds very much like what Jesus of the Bible might say if he were chatting with us in this day and time.

So I can assure you, people do not wish to see me, and I do not wish to be seen.

Does this mean you don't have a life? Like you don't go to the grocery store or out for a movie, etc?

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Thursday, November 10, 2011, 20:54 (4740 days ago) @ BBella

BBella: "So when you speak above of "heaven" (you may have answered this before), is that a place above as in "the heavens" like Alpha Centari, the Pleiades, Orions Belt, etc., or another dimension, or what/where?"

Heaven is a nation of worlds whose life forms are made of dark matter. These worlds are concentrated near the center of the Milky Way where the concentration of dark matter is the greatest, where there is even a dark matter "atmosphere" that spans from star to star. The "capital" of the nation of heaven is on a gas giant that revolves around one of these stars. Beyond that, the exact location of heaven is a closely guarded secret.

Bella: "You may have also answered this as well; is it your understanding that the "Soup" of dark and light matter is the true creator of all that IS? And is it, in your opinion, considered ONE intelligent being? Or just a soup of chance?"

It is my understanding that life came to be by the process of abiogenesis in low-entropy EM-matter. It then evolved into the race of intelligent bioengineers that created life as we know it. It is my belief that the universe came into being by figuratively, "running with scissors in its' hand". If it had a mother (an all-powerful GOD) it might have known better.

Bella: "Was it by your birth of chance or by specific creation that you were made by "heaven" for this purpose? Is your use of the word "heaven" like saying where and what we all were created from?"

I have absolutely no idea how Metatron tracks our genome through humanity. I simply know that I am placed by Him. As His shadow, He knows how to move me. I remember the last time I died very well. I was shot through the heart on a pier in San Francisco. You do not know what it is like to be me. The sense of utter futility that rises like a tide of despair between my lives. I went into spin, and watched as day and night began to strobe, then blend into gray with the sun mere a bright streak across the sky that varied its' position with the seasons. Leaves appear and disappear, and I would have walked like that until my time here was done. But God knows me. God knows how I need love. God showed me the wife that I would have when she came one day as a child to sit upon that dock, and look into the those waters. It was for her that I returned, and for her alone.

BBella: "The above almost sounds as if you are saying you were/are Jesus since he too was called a craftsman and laid the foundations, etc., and he too was said to be humble."

When Adam and Eve where being trained in the Garden of Eden they were told to eat freely of all its' trees as well as the Tree of Life. This figurative "eating" meant educate yourselves about these areas of knowledge. The Tree of Life is a nearly ubiquitous archeotype in many of this world's religions for a reason, though it has changed considerably since its' inception, this was the original religion given to this world by the Watchers. Adam in all his incarnations was designed to be a priest king and had/has the pride to do it.

The Watchers had been corrupted by pride. Pride that was, in part, created when they began to believe the line of crap they were feeding primitive people so they would follow them. They began to believe that they were gods when they are slaves. The sentinels were forbidden this corrupting path. Unfortunately the Naga priest that was teaching Adam and Eve the tenets of Hinduism, told them how the old ones used to teach. That people would just accept their teachings if they believed them to be gods. People didn't need to understand then, just tell them to do it. This was very wrong. So Eve then Adam began to tell their servants and followers that they were gods like the Watchers did. That is, they donned the leaves from the Tree of Life (a fig tree) and claimed to be one of the gods that dwell in its' branches.

God promised Adam and Eve that they would know death in the day that they ate from that forbidden tree. According to Jewish legend, Eve even saw the spirit of Death in that tree's branches. God fulfilled his promise, and they named that promise Abel.

Adam (the prophet king) is the first of the Seven. He was Moses and Jesus. Adam and Moses failed us because of pride. Jesus was the last path that Adam walked upon this world, thus the painful goodbyes. I was by his side until the last and wept as he left for heaven. Jesus spoke of me. I am the rock on which his church shall be built.

Intelligent design

by dhw, Saturday, November 12, 2011, 12:12 (4739 days ago) @ Abel

I fear that Abel may finally have lost patience with me and my questions, but each post brings new revelations that make little sense to me. His claims are undoubtedly the most extraordinary we have yet been offered. However, the purpose of this forum is to put ideas, theories and claims under scrutiny, and if we are to gain any degree of enlightenment, it can only be through a continuous process of clarification.

You have stated categorically that there is no one God, but you continually refer to God in the singular. You sometimes call Metatron God, but he was made by the original gods – the mortal creators of life who evolved spontaneously from the spontaneously generated first forms of life, and who can live for around 40,000 years. They must have already developed the technologies of space travel and of life and evolution at least 3.7 billion years ago, which means that the current generation of gods will now be at least the 100,000th since they first created life on Earth. Did all these generations of gods live and die on Earth until they had finished supervising the evolution of humans? When and why did they finally leave the Earth (which they must have done, because they sent aliens to teach humans a lesson)?

You have said that you yourself have no soul, and yet you have lived many lives, between which you walk around with a sense of futility "like a tide of despair" that seems to mirror your general attitude towards the human race. My heart goes out to you. I wish I could help you to feel that life is as beautiful and joyful as it is ugly and sad, while humans are as kind and as clever as they are selfish and stupid. Without a balanced view, despair is a destructive and paralysing emotion. However, my question to you is purely technical and perhaps in your eyes superficial: since your body has died and you have no soul, what is it that walks?

Adam became Moses who ended up as Jesus. You yourself are a soulless archangel with a human mother, and you are or were the rock on which Jesus’s church was built, i.e. St Peter. You have singled out the Old Testament as being a collection of myths (apart from those sections which you know to be true), which implies that the New Testament is a true record. If so, why did Jesus and you (St Peter) keep talking about the one Lord God, as opposed to the gods, why are there repeated references even by you (St Peter) to the soul, and why did Jesus and you never mention his and presumably your reincarnation?

Aliens wanted you to talk to the world about saving itself from itself, and said that if you refused, they would “save” the world by destroying it. You agreed to speak on their behalf, but knew that one of the spirit telepaths would think you were the Antichrist and would kill you, which makes him/her/it a Christian. (Once again, a strange form of Christianity without a singular God, and hell-bent on destroying the world as a means of saving it.) Since you and these aliens are clearly implacable enemies, why haven’t they destroyed the world yet, and you with it? It’s obvious from what you’ve written that the immediate threat to humanity comes not from its own stupidity, but from this band of vicious Christian thugs. So why don’t the gods who created and sent the aliens in the first place do something to correct their own appalling blunder before it’s too late?

Intelligent design; pre-planning

by David Turell @, Saturday, November 12, 2011, 15:09 (4738 days ago) @ dhw

I fear that Abel may finally have lost patience with me and my questions, but each post brings new revelations that make little sense to me.

It’s obvious from what you’ve written that the immediate threat to humanity comes not from its own stupidity, but from this band of vicious Christian thugs. So why don’t the gods who created and sent the aliens in the first place do something to correct their own appalling blunder before it’s too late?

Abel has turned this intellectual exercise of debate into a scifi jungle. I'll bet he was born of man and woman, has DNA, and all the other body parts we all have. His fanciful stories are fun to read, and perhaps it is good from time to time to be less serious and just explore what might be imagined. Perhaps his imagined life would be a great autobiogaphical read! Like Starwars, only better: Abel Skywalker!

Perhaps I have been too serious, presenting interesting new science. Note my next entry for pre-planning:

http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S22/60/95O56/index.xml?section=topstories

Note the preposterous statements in the article to protect standard Darwinism:

"Standard evolutionary theory offered no clues. Applying the concepts of control theory, a body of knowledge that deals with the behavior of dynamical systems, the researchers concluded that this self-correcting behavior could only be possible if, during the early stages of evolution, the proteins had developed a self-regulating mechanism, analogous to a car's cruise control or a home's thermostat, allowing them to fine-tune and control their subsequent evolution. The authors sought to identify the underlying cause for this self-correcting behavior in the observed working on formulating a new general theory based on this finding they are calling "evolutionary control."

First they note the 'pre-planned' aspect of the mechanism. (bold) And then they bail out of their original thinking by saying M&NS are the only possible origin of this finding, again bold:


Chakrabarti said that one of the aims of modern evolutionary theory is to identify principles of self-organization that can accelerate the generation of complex biological structures. "Such principles are fully consistent with the principles of natural selection. Biological change is always driven by random mutation and selection, but at certain pivotal junctures in evolutionary history, such random processes can create structures capable of steering subsequent evolution toward greater sophistication and complexity."

Intelligent design; pre-planning

by dhw, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 19:03 (4737 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Perhaps I have been too serious, presenting interesting new science. Note my next entry for pre-planning:

http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S22/60/95O56/index.xml?section=topstories

Duly noted with a gasp of disbelief. It seems that the authors have only just discovered that since evolution has led from simple to complex, there must be a mechanism that leads from simple to complex. It’s self-organizing and self-correcting, and they’ve named it “evolutionary control”, which makes it official. But get a load of this (and David, I’m surprised you didn’t batten onto it):

“The scientists do not know how the cellular machinery guiding this process may have originated, but they emphatically said it did not buttress the case for intelligent design...”

Scientists seem to believe that if they say something emphatically enough, everyone will believe them. Politicians have the same delusions. Why are these folk so terrified of open-mindedness?

David, several of the other sites you have drawn our attention to (including the one you want me to write a play about) require registration. This may be free and simple, but I have had bad experiences with such sites – once you’ve registered, they bombard you. It would be enormously helpful if you would briefly summarize any salient points.

Intelligent design; pre-planning

by David Turell @, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 21:54 (4737 days ago) @ dhw


David, several of the other sites you have drawn our attention to (including the one you want me to write a play about) require registration. This may be free and simple, but I have had bad experiences with such sites – once you’ve registered, they bombard you. It would be enormously helpful if you would briefly summarize any salient points.

I've repeated this many times. When I give you a site, sign up. All the ones I use are safe and they will not bug you. I frankly don't have the time to paraphrase, just to comment. Just try and keep a horse ranch going; we just fixed a water pipe leak by the barn. I've been out inthe pastures watering after driving the tractor to spread seed.

Intelligent design; pre-planning

by David Turell @, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 22:02 (4737 days ago) @ dhw

But get a load of this (and David, I’m surprised you didn’t batten onto it):

“The scientists do not know how the cellular machinery guiding this process may have originated, but they emphatically said it did not buttress the case for intelligent design...”


I ignored the statement because it is so blatently stupid. Of course it brings to mind design

Intelligent design; pre-planning

by David Turell @, Thursday, June 11, 2020, 19:49 (1604 days ago) @ David Turell

Another example of pre-planning, with very yearly creation of a molecule used in much later species as evolution progressed:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200611104804.htm

"A key set of proteins that help regulate hormones necessary for many essential functions in humans and other vertebrates have ancient origins in much simpler creatures such as sea cucumbers, says a new study published today in eLife.

"The kisspeptin system consists of a group of proteins that help control hormones released by trio of organs: the hypothalamus, the pituitary gland and the testicles in men or the ovaries in women. This trio regulates reproduction, metabolism, the immune system and other important body functions. Tracing the evolutionary origins of the kisspeptin proteins may help scientists learn more about why they developed and how they work.

***

"Wang and his colleagues searched for kisspeptin system genes in the sea cucumber, a very simple sea creature with no spinal cord. They identified equivalents of the kisspeptin genes in the sea cucumber.

***

"Next, they found that administering kisspeptin-like cucumber proteins to mammal cells causes them to release calcium, similar to how human versions of the protein would behave. The sea cucumber proteins were also able to interact with receptors in the human cells, suggesting that little has changed in these proteins over the course of evolution.

"Finally, the team carried out a series of experiments where they activated or blocked this signalling system in sea cucumbers. This showed that these proteins are crucial for reproduction and metabolism in the creatures.

"These experiments suggest that the kisspeptin system predates the evolution of the spinal cord in animals and that it will also be present in other creatures closely related to the sea cucumber, according to senior author Naiming Zhou, Professor at the Institute of Biochemistry, Zhejiang University, China.

"'Our findings indicate the existence of a kisspeptin signaling system in a very simple organism lacking a spinal cord," Zhou concludes. "They provide new evidence to support the ancient evolutionary origin of the physiological functions in vertebrates that are controlled by the kisspeptin system.'"

Comment: Evolution is a system of taking from the past and repurposing in the future. It took 3.8 billion years to get from bacteria to humans.It is obvious the time was required.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 00:20 (4738 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: If so, why did Jesus and you (St Peter) keep talking about the one Lord God, as opposed to the gods, why are there repeated references even by you (St Peter) to the soul, and why did Jesus and you never mention his and presumably your reincarnation?

As far as this world is concerned, Metatron (YHWH) is God. He was created to be this world's God by the Elohim (angels). He is the master gardener here on Earth. He has many god-like powers that are conferred by the advanced technologies that He uses. God is the dean of this university of life that we call existence. The Seven Sentinels are the living voices (thunders) of God. They are the teachers of His university.

Polytheism, though more truthful that monotheism, was causing problems. Rather than merely walking like the animals as its adherents were taught, they were each brandishing their own favorite "god". What was meant to unite the people was instead dividing them. This was not wanted.

The tenets of Hinduism were meant to be "retrofitted" by those of monotheism, while keeping the spiritual and philosophical beliefs of that "way" intact. When Jesus came of age, the three wise men taught him as they had promised his parents at his birth. Jesus learned "the way" of Daoism and Buddism and took from these philosophies that which he knew to be good. It was this religion that Jesus taught me, not "Christianity". Christianity is the remnant of "the way" that Jesus taught. It is what is left after the Romans and the Catholic church burned the books of those who walked the way, then burned the faithful too.

Jesus told you that he was the son of God and he was. In the garden of Eden, God was Adam's adoptive father. So Jesus was the son of God in a previous life. Just as I was Adam's son in a previous life. Abraham himself said that he believed that the Messiah walks (not walked or will walk) among them. And though the concept of reincarnation is not accepted by the majority of Jews, Christians and Muslims, there are many monotheists such as the Kabbalists, the Cathars, the Alawi, the Druze, and the Rosicrucians who do.

dhw: However, my question to you is purely technical and perhaps in your eyes superficial: since your body has died and you have no soul, what is it that walks?

If a soul does not pass the test that would allow it to graduate from this "school" of civilized behavior, it is sent back to walk the path again and again until that soul is lucky enough to find a person with the character that heaven wants. I am a teacher in this school of civilized behavior. I do not have a soul that walks the path, I am the archangel of the trinity that walks the path. Jesus was an archangel too, and had no soul, like me.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 02:09 (4738 days ago) @ Abel
edited by unknown, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 02:44

dhw:"You have singled out the Old Testament as being a collection of myths (apart from those sections which you know to be true), which implies that the New Testament is a true record."

As a student I know I should take careful notes while a speaker is talking. Taking notes after class from "memory" certainly would not be an option. Taking those notes weeks or months later would only amplify the number of flaws in their transcription.

As you, dhw, have demonstrated on your many attempts to "paraphrase" the things that you have just read, a "note-taker" can significantly distort a simple message with just a single passage through his hands. If you "paraphrased" my message and gave it to your son or pupil, you would pass your flawed understanding along with it. And if they did the same, you can see how any truth or wisdom in what I said can be eroded very rapidly by the unguided intelligence of prideful men. Intelligence is less that useless when it blemishes every premise that it is presented by desire alone. It is like using approximate numbers to launch a rocket. The math works out perfect, but all your ships are lost.

The reader of your efforts to reproduce my "ideas" will doubtless note how your words and ideas were also influenced by the thinly-veiled derision of its' writer. Now imagine if you were a "divinely" inspired author of the Bible that was writing with reverence about events that occurred decades or even centuries earlier. The greater length of time that transpired between the authoring of the events and the actual events implies a proportionate amount of distancing from the absolute truth of those events. The great prophets were not allowed the chance to edit the works and words that were attributed to them. They were all written by others. This applies to the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Quran.

There are glittering bits of truth and wisdom in all of these, but it takes the eyes of the wise find them among their myths and lies.

dhw: "Did all these generations of gods live and die on Earth until they had finished supervising the evolution of humans? When and why did they finally leave the Earth (which they must have done, because they sent aliens to teach humans a lesson)?"

Heaven could have been closer to Earth then, than it is now. Those that came here to work could add new genes and organisms to the biosphere and leave, or they could stay and monitor their work. Certain varieties of dark matter beings can increase their temporal spin frequency (de Broglie frequency) at will. This creates the same temporal "compression" effect generated by relativistic rates of travel. Thus such a being could wait a subjective hour, then examine how his experiment was running after 1000 years. Any new tools being developed in heaven could then be delivered to these "field" researchers.

The Creators left this world for a couple of reasons. The extinction events here were continually threatening millions of years of hard work. They didn't want to keep all their genetic gems in one basket. When the last Ice Age began to set in, they created a new species of man from the Chinese who were the last race that they made upon this world and the most peaceful (which is what they wanted). The aliens that are currently here still speak a very heavily-accented archaic form of Cantonese.

Heaven quit giving this world technology long ago because of the philosophies of peace and perfection that the Elohim possess. Their tools are sacred. Waging war with them, without the express authorization of heaven is forbidden. Men turn all tools into weapons, even religions with peaceful tenets have been used to wage war. Heaven stopped giving this world tools long ago and began sending teachers to adapt the tools at hand into useful things to give you. Then their teachers would bear the emotional burdens that the citizens of heaven should not.

The aliens that are here are Satan's reinforcements, they are not heaven's. If they were here on heaven's behalf, humanity would already be extinct I assure you.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 05:21 (4738 days ago) @ Abel

Heaven quit giving this world technology long ago because of the philosophies of peace and perfection that the Elohim possess.

The word "Elohim" in Hebrew is the common name of God. I don't understand your usage. With your described background, you should speak Hebrew. Can you explain this usage to me?

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 09:49 (4738 days ago) @ David Turell

David: The word "Elohim" in Hebrew is the common name of God. I don't understand your usage. With your described background, you should speak Hebrew. Can you explain this usage to me?


According to the Grace Communal international:

"The word elohim can refer to the true God, to a false god, to angels, and to human beings."

Exodus 18:11 compares the true God with false gods (elohim).

Psalm 8:5 says that God made man slightly less than the angels (elohim).

As you can see David, the word elohim has more uses than you are aware.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 15:03 (4737 days ago) @ Abel

David: The word "Elohim" in Hebrew is the common name of God. I don't understand your usage. With your described background, you should speak Hebrew. Can you explain this usage to me?


According to the Grace Communal international:

"The word elohim can refer to the true God, to a false god, to angels, and to human beings."

Exodus 18:11 compares the true God with false gods (elohim).

Psalm 8:5 says that God made man slightly less than the angels (elohim).

As you can see David, the word elohim has more uses than you are aware.

Then this fits the history of the Hebrew language. For the Torah there were only 2-3,000 base words and a total of 10,000 using pre-fixes and post-fixes. It is why the King James Version had so many mistakes. The Sea of Galilee is a 5x13 mile lake and the Hebrew "yam" was used for a drop of water to an ocean. Currently Israelis call the lake Yam Kenneret. But in my Hebrew Encyclopedia Elohim is meant to mean 'God', as I described. Christians are still messing with and misinterpreting our language! :>))

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 18:10 (4737 days ago) @ David Turell

David: "But in my Hebrew Encyclopedia Elohim is meant to mean 'God', as I described. Christians are still messing with and misinterpreting our language! :>))"

Language is like life: it evolves. French, Italien, Portuguese and Spanish are all considered "Romance" languages, that is, they were derived from the language of Rome which was Latin. Long after Latin died as a spoken language, the Catholic Church still used it exclusively to teach though it was no longer understood by local peoples. Apparently the Catholics felt this "tradition" was more important than being comprehended or they wouldn't have killed those who disagreed. Of course, the Catholics also believed that ignorant villagers were evil by nature, thus the word villain.

Jesus would never consider teaching in a language that his pupils did not understand. He even taught in parables so that he could be understood easily. Though Jesus knew Hebrew, he spoke in the language of the people, and that language was Aramaic.

David: " The word "Elohim" in Hebrew is the common name of God. I don't understand your usage. With your described background, you should speak Hebrew."

My memories of previous lives consists of images and the emotions associated with those memories. Some of my memories are associated with the many painful ways that I was killed by mobs of jeering "noble" intelligent human beings. Many others are just memories of how I was murdered or executed by other such "noble" beasts.

I sincerely hope that humanity may preserve its' childhood beliefs about its' "nobility" and that anarchy does not ever dispel its' delusions. Then amid the riots, the murders, the robberies, the rapes and the wars, a few people might have to actually lift the burdens of understanding that they discarded because of a desire to believe alone. Only then, will they realize what their creators have known for aeons: you can take a man out of the jungle much more easily than you can take the jungle out of a man.

Intelligent design

by dhw, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 19:14 (4737 days ago) @ Abel

ABEL (26 Oct. at 23.40): The Old Testament, I believe, is primarily myth passed down by word of mouth over hundreds of years […] But still that legend possesses a few kernels of truth.

Dhw (12 November at 12.12.): You have singled out the Old Testament as being a collection of myths (apart from those sections which you know to be true), which implies that the New Testament is a true account.

ABEL: (13 November at 02.09): As a student I know I should take careful notes while a speaker is talking. Taking notes after class from “memory” certainly would not be an option.

As someone (a) who has a bad memory, and (b) whose university teaching career
spanned well over 30 years, I have long since learned to make sure of my sources. If I extrapolated a false conclusion from your initial statement, I apologize, but I am still at a loss as to why you should have singled out the OT and not referred to the whole bible. You go on to attack my attempts to “paraphrase” your message as significant distortions. Your posts are sometimes extremely long and far from simple. On 5 November at 15.54,
I tried to condense them into a plain narrative “based on your posts and incorporating some of the apparent anomalies”. At the end, I wrote: “Sorry about all the parentheses, please correct my mistakes, and once more forgive my obtuseness.” One of the lessons I tried to instil into my examination candidates was the imperative need to answer questions directly. Perhaps if you had responded directly to my request for corrections, we could both have been saved a great deal of time. Instead, the welter of digressions have thrown up their own apparent inconsistencies and new sets of questions, all of which are based on what you have written. Would you please therefore identify what
significant distortions you are referring to.

You talk of my “thinly-veiled derision”. This is a term I would never associate with myself. Perhaps you are confusing my posts with someone else’s. I will certainly own to a pronounced degree of scepticism (for instance, concerning abiogenesis and unguided evolution into gods), and of course there is absolutely no reason why I should take any of your personal claims on trust. You have acknowledged (28 October at 01.35) that in our position you would think yourself insane, and have often considered the possibility that your experience was “a full-blown hallucination”, except that you have
evidence to prove its reality. Your readers do not have that evidence. And so all we can do is question whatever statements and claims you make, and form our own judgement. If you do not wish to be questioned, or prefer to dismiss difficult questions as significant distortions, there is little point in continuing the discussion.

I shall need time to consider your last set of answers, not least because you have suddenly brought yet another new figure into the reckoning: namely, Satan.
Perhaps it's his minions who have caused chaos to the lay-out of this post!

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 23:59 (4737 days ago) @ dhw
edited by unknown, Monday, November 14, 2011, 00:05

dhw: "You talk of my “thinly-veiled derision”. This is a term I would never associate with myself. Perhaps you are confusing my posts with someone else’s."

Perhaps it is I, but since you asked for examples I will provide a few. I will color those words that might be considered "derisive".

"Abel, I’m struggling to find any coherence in your history of Planets X and Earth. (3Nov11 15:21)"

"Once upon a time in the realms of dark matter – the nature of which is unknown to all humans except yourself – the first basic forms of life spontaneously but inevitably assembled themselves on low-entropy Planet X." (5Nov11 15:54)

"After lots of humans, they then created Adam and Eve (any relation?), so Genesis didn’t quite get its story right. (NB the Bible is a collection of myths, but thanks to your special gifts you know which sections are true.)" (5Nov11 15:54)

"Sorry about all the parentheses, please correct any mistakes, and once more forgive my obtuseness."*** (5Nov11 15:54)

*** I know that on the surface this seems innocent enough, but it was not. It was delivered just after I had written a response to a series of questions that you had posed. The responses that I gave you were rendered obtuse by their poor formatting and they contained lots of parenthesis.

dhw: "Would you please therefore identify what significant distortions you are referring to."

Once again, since you have asked I will post a few.

"They found out somehow that we humans were messing things up, so they sent aliens to teach us a lesson, but they got corrupted too." 1* (9Nov11 16:55)

1)* I never said that heaven sent the aliens to teach us a lesson anywhere in my writings.

"In reply, you have told us that you have found a cure for cancer***, and the Indians who used it searched for the source of the cure, as the world expects that person to be the Messiah. Eventually, their search led to alien spirit telepaths being sent (by whom?) to assault your mind, ....." 2* (9Nov11 16:55)

2* I said, "Everything was being set in place for a world-wide assault set to begin on 6/6/06, but something happened: a better false Messiah was found. Someone in India was using methylglyoxal to cure the majority of the stage four cancers that they were treating. Knowing that the world expected the Messiah to be the one that cured cancer, they went seeking the source of the cure....The spirit telepaths that they sent to assault my mind opened my eyes to the world of dark matter." Though there was a little ambiguity in what I said because of my use of the pronoun "they", using that pronoun to mean anything other than the aliens is illogical. The Indians who where using the cure and at one time had the name of the theorist who sent them the mechanism, had no need to "search" for the source of the cure. Indian researchers also do not have the means to send spirit telepaths either, again, logically removing the Indian researchers as an option as to who "they" referred to.

"Are you, then, the real Messiah sent by the gods, as opposed to the puppet the aliens wanted to install?" (9Nov11 16:55) 3*

3*) I said I would not lie and say I was the Messiah. I also said that they (meaning the aliens) wanted to make me into a "puppet" to make me masquerade as the Messiah. I certainly tried to be clear that I am not the Messiah and yet I failed.

These are the distortions that you made on November 9th in one of your posts. I believe this is enough to illustrate my point.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Monday, November 14, 2011, 00:17 (4737 days ago) @ Abel

These are the distortions that you made on November 9th in one of your posts. I believe this is enough to illustrate my point.

I'm with dhw. We are polite on this site. You have made outlandish claims and offered no uncontestable proof. His 'distortions' I think are confusion on an Englishman's polite part. I am an American and alot brasher. I use the word 'outlandish', but I can accept real proof and retract my disbelief.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Monday, November 14, 2011, 02:38 (4737 days ago) @ David Turell

David: "His 'distortions' I think are confusion on an Englishman's polite part. I am an American and alot brasher. I use the word 'outlandish', but I can accept real proof and retract my disbelief."

The point that I was making was how a message can be distorted over a short period of time when passed through a singular brain. This was part of my effort to show how the books of the Bible had to be distorted by more time and more brains than just the one that my post had just passed through. Thus we have intellectual entropy. There doesn't have to be any conscious attempt to distort anything. It just happens.

I have indeed attempted to offer proof as to my assertions. However, as I told you before, people believe what they want to believe. And those things they hold most dearly to be true are those that make them feel most secure. So the majority can deny the "anecdotal" testimony of millions throughout history about the existence of ghosts, because they are afraid of ghosts. People can see reams of secret studies about Nazi ufo projects and their alien contacts as well as piles of photographs and film reels showing these foo fighters in action. They can review thousands of hours of videotape showing these ufos performing "impossible" maneuvers then "disappearing". They can hear the testimony of hundreds of credible observers and still deny the existence of aliens, because they are afraid of aliens.

I have offered to mail you what proof that I can. This would be a sample of my cells. If you have e-mailed me your address already, I cannot find it in the numerous e-mails that I have from here so you should try again.

I have also designed a M-matter detector so that scientists may study the existence and nature of M-matter in my efforts to provide the proof you desire. In addition, I have provided the model to predict and understand the nature of the universe, not just dark matter. A means to understand the waveform motion of energy and matter and a model on which the science of temporal mechanics can be built. As you can see I am working very hard to make my point and give not just you, but humanity the proof it needs to understand the truth.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Monday, November 14, 2011, 03:20 (4737 days ago) @ David Turell

Dhw (12 November at 12.12.): You have singled out the Old Testament as being a collection of myths (apart from those sections which you know to be true), which implies that the New Testament is a true account.

ABEL: (13 November at 02.09): As a student I know I should take careful notes while a speaker is talking. Taking notes after class from “memory” certainly would not be an option.


I can see that you don't feel I answered this question, however I believe that I did. When I used your writing to illustrate how a message can be distorted over a short period of time by a singular mind it was to illustrate how the Bible had been distorted over a much longer time by a greater number of minds. I said, "Now imagine if you were a "divinely" inspired author of the Bible that was writing with reverence about events that occurred decades or even centuries earlier." Perhaps I should have been more explicit. The Old Testament was written centuries after the events that it recorded, while the New Testament was written decades after the events that it describes happened. Thus the Bible that I was talking about was the combined books of the Bible.

In addition, I believed that I explained what I thought of the New Testament a bit more explicitly when I said this in a previous post:

"Jesus learned "the way" of Daoism and Buddism and took from these philosophies that which he knew to be good. It was this religion that Jesus taught me, not "Christianity". Christianity is the remnant of "the way" that Jesus taught. It is what is left after the Romans and the Catholic church burned the books of those who walked the way, then burned the faithful too."

In my mind the New Testament is a huge mix of myths that were heaped upon a legend. Myths that were altered to fit existing theologies at the time and make the Jesus legend more acceptable by pagans. Thus the truthful story of Jesus was hybridized with the mystery cult of Mithraism because there were a few important similarities. Eventually the story became fully influenced by the early beliefs of that mystery cult and incorporated into the New Testament. This is my belief.

Intelligent design

by dhw, Monday, November 14, 2011, 17:07 (4736 days ago) @ Abel

dhw: "You talk of my “thinly-veiled derision”. This is a term I would never associate with myself. Perhaps you are confusing my posts with someone else’s."

ABEL: Perhaps it is I, but since you asked for examples I will provide a few.

"Abel, I’m struggling to find any coherence in your history of Planets X and Earth. (3 Nov 11 15:21)" This is not derisive but true, and I’ve consistently pointed out what I consider to be the inconsistencies.

"Once upon a time [a nice story-telling formula] in the realms of dark matter – the nature of which is unknown to all humans except yourself". Again, this is not derisive but true. Can you name me one other human source that claims to know the nature of dark matter? I don’t think it’s derisive if I point out the sheer scale of what we’re being asked to accept.

– the first basic forms of life spontaneously but inevitably assembled themselves on low-entropy Planet X." (5 Nov 11 15:54) Derisive? You’ve stated categorically that this is what happened: abiogenesis followed by evolution.

"After lots of humans, they then created Adam and Eve (any relation?) You chose this name, and subsequent posts do suggest a strong connection (10 Nov.: “God fulfilled his promise [death] and they [Adam & Eve] named that promise Abel). (NB the Bible is a collection of myths, but thanks to your special gifts you know which sections are true.)" (5 Nov 11 15:54)
ABEL: 28 October at 01.35: “I have a gift when it comes to spotting the truth.”

dhw: "Sorry about all the parentheses, please correct any mistakes, and once more forgive my obtuseness."*** (5 Nov 11 15:54)

ABEL: *** I know that on the surface this seems innocent enough, but it was not. It was delivered just after I had written a response to a series of questions that you had posed. The responses that I gave you were rendered obtuse by their poor formatting and they contained lots of parenthesis.

What I wrote here was completely genuine. Why else would I ask for corrections? Why do you take an apology for derision?

dhw: "Would you please therefore identify what significant distortions you are referring to."
ABEL: Once again, since you have asked I will post a few.

DHW: "They found out somehow that we humans were messing things up, so they sent aliens to teach us a lesson, but they got corrupted too." 1* (9 Nov 11 16:55) 1)*
ABEL: I never said that heaven sent the aliens to teach us a lesson anywhere in my writings.

On 02 November at 23.04, you explained how the first set of aliens were corrupted by the drive for survival and by pride. “To resolve this a second generation of soldier was made to teach.” These were the “Watchers”, and they “grew tired of trying to teach fools.”

Abel: Though there was a little ambiguity in what I said [about Indians and the cure for cancer] because of my use of the pronoun "they", using that pronoun to mean anything other than the aliens is illogical.

I have already apologized (Nov 10 at 18.18) for this misunderstanding caused by your ambiguity.

Dhw: "Are you, then, the real Messiah sent by the gods, as opposed to the puppet the aliens wanted to install?" (9 Nov 11 16:55) 3*

How can a question be a distortion? You might be the real Messiah, unwilling to act as their puppet Messiah.

ABEL: 3*) I said I would not lie and say I was the Messiah.

This was in your later post of 10 November at 10.43, in response to more questions.

As regards the Bible, my OT reference was to your post of 26 October. The fact that you have now applied the “myth” tag to the NT as well clarifies your position – and of course I’m in complete agreement.

I do not wish to disguise my true feelings about your posts. I’m extremely sceptical about your extraordinary claims, but I’m also sceptical about religious and atheistic beliefs generally. My attempts to make sense of your opinions and claims are based on rational analysis of your writings, which are the only material I have, and what you call distortion is an effort and often a request (in the form of questions)to obtain clarification. Derision does not and never has played any role. I hope this (colourful) post will help to clear the air between us.

Meanwhile, your latest revelation once again has me confused:
(10 Nov. at 02.43): The spirit telepaths threatened to destroy the world if you didn’t pretend to be the Messiah. You agreed to speak on their behalf. You wrote: “Even then, I knew one of you would believe that I was the Antichrist and kill me. I knew they would, but that was the choice I made.”

I don’t know why you say “one of you” (unless you believe we correspondents are aliens out to get you), but that is not the real source of my confusion. You now say “The aliens that are here are Satan’s reinforcements, they are not heaven’s.”

If these aliens want to kill you because they think you are the Antichrist, doesn’t that put them on heaven’s side and not Satan’s?

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Monday, November 14, 2011, 17:53 (4736 days ago) @ dhw


Meanwhile, your latest revelation once again has me confused:
(10 Nov. at 02.43): The spirit telepaths threatened to destroy the world if you didn’t pretend to be the Messiah. You agreed to speak on their behalf. You wrote: “Even then, I knew one of you would believe that I was the Antichrist and kill me. I knew they would, but that was the choice I made.”

I don’t know why you say “one of you” (unless you believe we correspondents are aliens out to get you), but that is not the real source of my confusion. You now say “The aliens that are here are Satan’s reinforcements, they are not heaven’s.”

If these aliens want to kill you because they think you are the Antichrist, doesn’t that put them on heaven’s side and not Satan’s?

Don't you think it is time to rename this thread? Nothing is intelligent about Abel's claims. They are just his story, interesting but unsubstantiated. He wants send his 'cells'. Will they be on as slide for microscopic view? I can do that. Is there something unusual I can see. How will he prove what he sent are his cells? Will he send living cells in tissue culture? Those can go to a DNA lab.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Monday, November 14, 2011, 22:42 (4736 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by unknown, Monday, November 14, 2011, 22:53

[David: "He wants send his 'cells'. Will they be on as slide for microscopic view? I can do that. Is there something unusual I can see. How will he prove what he sent are his cells? Will he send living cells in tissue culture? Those can go to a DNA lab."[/i]

David, I was thinking of sending you some samples of my skin immersed in mineral oil on a couple of microscope slides with cover slips. An microscopic examination will reveal that each of my cells possess three nuclei, not one. I am aware of no other animal on the planet whose cells possess three nuclei. Thus the samples I will send you are unique.

I already know what a DNA analysis will show, though I have never had one done. It will show that ~98% of my genome is human which falls within normal deviations between the races of man. Just like the DNA of the aliens will show that they are primarily human, though they don't look it.

David: "Don't you think it is time to rename this thread? Nothing is intelligent about Abel's claims."

Given that I believe that intelligent men are stupid all the time David, you may have just unintentionally given me quite a compliment. As I had mentioned before I have a gift when it come to sorting truths from lies, that gift is wisdom.

So though it is the intelligence of engineers and architects that receives all the glory for the vision of their creations, it is the wisdom of simple craftsmen that brings that vision to life. It is not surprising that it was not the genius of engineers or scientists that taught this world to erect obelisks again after that secret was lost to intellectual erosion, it was the simple wisdom of a craftsman.

And though many of this world's scientists and engineers have wondered for centuries how such massive stones as the obelisks could have been moved many miles from where they were quarried to where they were erected, none of those scientists or engineers has ever solved the problem. Of course I won't argue that these are and were some very intelligent men, however the solution to that mystery eludes them. Perhaps they should have asked for the guidance of a not-so-intelligent craftsman, just as this world's research physicians have learned to accept and respect his not-so-intelligent opinions.

Let me pose this question to you David:

Let say you needed to move a large stone in primitive times that needed one thousand tons of force to budge. To move this stone with human power an engineer might need to have 20,000 men pulling 100 pounds each. This certainly is a lot of men and a lot of work.

A craftsman using a few tools and a specially built road, could move that same stone with two hundred men and some those men would be riding on the rock while others rested in the shade.

So tell me, if you were making payroll David, which man would you hire, the intelligent engineer or the not-so-intelligent craftsman?

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 05:47 (4736 days ago) @ Abel


David, I was thinking of sending you some samples of my skin immersed in mineral oil on a couple of microscope slides with cover slips. An microscopic examination will reveal that each of my cells possess three nuclei, not one. I am aware of no other animal on the planet whose cells possess three nuclei. Thus the samples I will send you are unique.

Send them I have an oil immersion lens on he old scope. I assume the cell samples are stained. I haven't done histologic preps since college in 1949.

So tell me, if you were making payroll David, which man would you hire, the intelligent engineer or the not-so-intelligent craftsman?

I been to Cuzco and Saysachyhuman. Yes, how did they move those stones, and furthermore, the stone buildings are quake proof? They were great craftsmen.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 21:08 (4735 days ago) @ David Turell

Abel: "So tell me, if you were making payroll David, which man would you hire, the intelligent engineer or the not-so-intelligent craftsman?"

David: "I been to Cuzco and Saysachyhuman. Yes, how did they move those stones, and furthermore, the stone buildings are quake proof? They were great craftsmen."

I had mentioned the tool used to build the pyramids in a previous post about tools that men turned into weapons. By the process of intellectual entropy, the understanding of this weapon's use as a tool was lost. With even further intellectual erosion even that understanding was lost. That tool/weapon is the device that we call the catapult.

It is not really that strange that its' use as a weapon still gets all the attention. But it was once used to build walls not to tear them down. The true power of the catapult is not in its' throwing arm: it is in the rotational torque that can be generated on its' axle. This torque can be used to lift and move massive loads using the occasionally applied strength of a few men.

In reviewing some information on existing obelisks, I realized that force that I suggested be applied to an obelisk would move one ten times larger than was ever quarried in ancient times. Also its' design would be too complex to begin a discussion on the use of the technology. Fortunately I came upon some information on Wikipedea about previous experiments done to move large stones so we have some good numbers to work with. Here is the link the info is at the bottom under obelisk erecting experiments:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelisk

For this example let's use the same size stone that they used, and say that you were delivering it to a pyramid under construction 4900 feet away: a pyramid that needed one million of such blocks to be delivered. These workers moved the block an average of 15 feet a day using 130 men pulling and 12 prying. At this rate they would take 327 days to deliver one stone. With time off lets call this delivery time 1 year. So 142 million men can deliver all the stones that you need in one year or 14.2 million in ten. Given that the quarries were miles away from the pyramids, I believe that I could argue, that this was not the way those stones were moved. Fortunately there is a more rational explanation.

Moving these stones could easily be done by two catapults joined with a common axle whose "throwing" arms were also joined with a piece of lumber. The radius of the axle inside the catapult is larger than that of the "pulling axle" between them, gearing the torque generated by the falling load. Ropes repeatedly wrapped around this "pulling axle" can be held in place by a movable hinged "pinch" rod that can be clamped into position once the catapults are cocked for a pull.

These pulling catapults can arrayed down the road that leads from the quarry to the pyramid. Let's say that distance is the 4900 feet that we discussed. Seventy catapults placed seventy feet apart could pick up the load from one and pass it to another, actually pulling the stone under the pulling axle of the previous catapult. Each of these catapults is capable of moving these stones with just two men working it and they would only have to start working on the day that the stone reached the catapult that they had to operate. According to my calculations, which I will explain if you'd like me to, the last catapult would deliver the first stone on day seventy, and another stone each and every day thereafter. So at the end of the year, when 142 hard working men delivered their first stone to the pyramid, there would be 295 stones sitting there delivered there by the same number of men who hardly worked at all. In the second year there would be 365 sitting there and every year thereafter, even accounting for time off.

With larger, longer stones like obelisks, the catapults would have to be larger and spaced more closely together and staged on ramps to vary their axle heights. For these arrays, varied axle lengths will allow the catapults to be spaced more closely together. These arrays of catapults pulling on a singular load would by operated by teams during the pull as a unit. When the catapults are reset for a pull they may be operated in conjoined pairs. During the pull, the obelisk would be being pulled beneath some of the pulling axles and those tightening the rope on these axles would be "riding" the stone as it was pulled beneath them.

To illustrate how much a catapult can lift or move, we will use the example of a man who can move 100 pounds. With a 10:1 lever ratio on the catapult arm, that man could lift 1000 pounds. Given a load ratio of 6:1 on the catapult's axle and a gear ratio of 3:1, means that one man moving 100 lbs can generate 18,000 lbs of pulling torque. Two men can generate 36,000 pounds, which almost enough to lift a 25 ton obelisk much less move it. Those people cited in Wikipedia, were only generating about a third of this force.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 21:51 (4735 days ago) @ Abel


To illustrate how much a catapult can lift or move, we will use the example of a man who can move 100 pounds. With a 10:1 lever ratio on the catapult arm, that man could lift 1000 pounds. Given a load ratio of 6:1 on the catapult's axle and a gear ratio of 3:1, means that one man moving 100 lbs can generate 18,000 lbs of pulling torque. Two men can generate 36,000 pounds, which almost enough to lift a 25 ton obelisk much less move it. Those people cited in Wikipedia, were only generating about a third of this force.

google saysachyhuman. The stones there are blocks of 20x20x20 feet. It is other than catapults. And how about the stone walls of buildings in Cuzco, interlocking and earthquake proof. How do I know. they are still totally intact.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 22:11 (4735 days ago) @ David Turell

David: "google saysachyhuman. The stones there are blocks of 20x20x20 feet. It is other than catapults. And how about the stone walls of buildings in Cuzco, interlocking and earthquake proof. How do I know. they are still totally intact."

Moving a stone of these dimensions would only require a different array of catapults that do not actually pull the load under the axis but simply towards the catapults. Using modern day materials, a stone the size of the Empire State building could be moved if you really wanted to do it.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 01:00 (4735 days ago) @ Abel

David: "google saysachyhuman. The stones there are blocks of 20x20x20 feet. It is other than catapults. And how about the stone walls of buildings in Cuzco, interlocking and earthquake proof. How do I know. they are still totally intact."

Moving a stone of these dimensions would only require a different array of catapults that do not actually pull the load under the axis but simply towards the catapults. Using modern day materials, a stone the size of the Empire State building could be moved if you really wanted to do it.

Interesting conjecture. Enough catapult leverage would work.

Intelligent design

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 00:46 (4735 days ago) @ Abel

Oh Ye of little research. The proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the concrete. The Egyptians, as it has been discovered, did not have to haul these megalithic stones at all. Instead, they did what we would do.... they used concrete.

http://www.geopolymer.org/fichiers_pdf/pyramid_chapt1.pdf
http://digg.com/news/story/Pyramid_Stones_Were_Poured_Not_Quarried

Not only have the quarries been discovered, and the tell-tale field spar found around the sites, but also it is able to determine the composition of the stone under a microscope, and it has been proven as a re-amalgamated stone(A.K.A. Concrete). A small fraction of the number of slaves could have built the pyramids in a fraction of the time.

So personally, I would hire the intelligent chemist that came up with their concrete, and use slave labor so that I could avoid having to pay the well-intentioned wise craftsman. (Ok... so may not ALL slave labor. You would need a few overseers and what not too. :P)

All of that aside, you are trying to compare apples to oranges. Wisdom and Intellect, while loosely related are not the same, nor are they mutually inclusive or exclusive.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 18:19 (4735 days ago) @ Abel


David, I was thinking of sending you some samples of my skin immersed in mineral oil on a couple of microscope slides with cover slips. An microscopic examination will reveal that each of my cells possess three nuclei, not one. I am aware of no other animal on the planet whose cells possess three nuclei. Thus the samples I will send you are unique.


Some cells in plants and animals have more than one nucleus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coenocyte

Now you are aware.

Intelligent design

by DragonsHeart @, Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 20:21 (4735 days ago) @ David Turell

To be the devil's advocate here, but how would he actually know that the cells came from your skin? Unless he took the skin cells from you himself, he wouldn't. Having some person send you "skin cells" in the mail isn't empirical evidence. Unless he could, without a doubt, identify where the cells came from, just looking at cells under a microscope proves nothing.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 21:47 (4735 days ago) @ DragonsHeart

To be the devil's advocate here, but how would he actually know that the cells came from your skin? Unless he took the skin cells from you himself, he wouldn't. Having some person send you "skin cells" in the mail isn't empirical evidence. Unless he could, without a doubt, identify where the cells came from, just looking at cells under a microscope proves nothing.

DH: I know this. I am trying to draw him out. Note that I have shown him an article about multinuclear cells. I have no idea what his game is, but I've tried to be polite.

Intelligent design

by DragonsHeart @, Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 00:34 (4735 days ago) @ David Turell

David,

I had meant that to go to Abel, not directly at you. My apologies if it's confusing.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 22:05 (4735 days ago) @ David Turell

Abel: David, I was thinking of sending you some samples of my skin immersed in mineral oil on a couple of microscope slides with cover slips. An microscopic examination will reveal that each of my cells possess three nuclei, not one. I am aware of no other animal on the planet whose cells possess three nuclei. Thus the samples I will send you are unique.


Some cells in plants and animals have more than one nucleus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coenocyte

Thank you David, I was unaware that there certain types of cells such as osteoblasts in animals that have more than one nuclei, however there are no animals that have three nuclei in all of their terminally differentiated tissues. The sample that I will send you will be intact skin samples stained with eosin, if this is to your liking.

[DragonsHeart: "To be the devil's advocate here, but how would he actually know that the cells came from your skin? Unless he took the skin cells from you himself, he wouldn't. Having some person send you "skin cells" in the mail isn't empirical evidence. Unless he could, without a doubt, identify where the cells came from, just looking at cells under a microscope proves nothing."[/i]

Looking under a microscope to see conjoined tri-nucleated skin cells which exists in no other animal on the planet, does prove something. However I guess you could believe that I just had access to a non-human that didn't mind me pulling flesh off of him. I do have trouble convincing regular advocates though, much less the devil's.

Intelligent design

by DragonsHeart @, Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 00:22 (4735 days ago) @ Abel

All it proves is that those cells under the microscope are tri-nucleic. It does NOT, however, prove that they are YOURS.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 01:02 (4735 days ago) @ DragonsHeart

All it proves is that those cells under the microscope are tri-nucleic. It does NOT, however, prove that they are YOURS.

I know DH, but let me take a look.

Intelligent design

by DragonsHeart @, Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 01:04 (4735 days ago) @ David Turell

I'd personally be very interested to see tri-nucleic cells of any type, as I've never seen them before. I honestly wasn't aware that they even existed, so this thread has definitely educated me about some things about which I was unaware.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 01:21 (4735 days ago) @ DragonsHeart

I'd personally be very interested to see tri-nucleic cells of any type, as I've never seen them before. I honestly wasn't aware that they even existed, so this thread has definitely educated me about some things about which I was unaware.

I knew of syncytial cells with multiple nuclei, but I have learned also. I will describe what I see when they get here.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 00:59 (4735 days ago) @ Abel

Thank you David, I was unaware that there certain types of cells such as osteoblasts in animals that have more than one nuclei, however there are no animals that have three nuclei in all of their terminally differentiated tissues. The sample that I will send you will be intact skin samples stained with eosin, if this is to your liking.


Please send the slides to 40316 Wildlife Run, Hempstead, TX 77445.

The address, I think, is on my website, but also on my email, which is why I make it public here also..

Intelligent design

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 19:23 (4735 days ago) @ Abel

Abel,

I have been absent from this forum for a while due to life, but in the last day I have read over your posts, and came up with a number of points I would like to add. While I am sure some of them will seem offensive at first, just consider them as wisdom instead of intelligence and I am certain you will see their validity.

Point 1:

Stop being such a prick. You came here and presented a wild idea, which is fine, but instead of arguing your idea on a point by point basis you have slandered nearly everyone that has questioned your idea. DHW, DT, Bella, Xeno, George and the other regulars on this website are people and intellectuals of the highest caliber. In addition, they are my friends and I get a bit pissy when people are rude, insulting, and slanderous to my friends. You have not presented anything here that seems to give you any right or reason to be so smug or self-righteous. So stop being smug and self-righteous. While the others might be too nice or polite to put it so bluntly, I'm not.

Point 2:

Answer direct questions directly. You have pointedly ignored or deflected the vast majority of the specific questions posed to you. These questions are not meant to be insulting but rather to find help those of us who are not familiar with your ideas to understand them in their entirety. The questions are only asked because YOU were unclear, illogical, irrational, or otherwise ambivalent in presenting your idea. If you want the very intelligent people on this site to take your idea as one with any degree of intellectual sincerity, then treat your own idea as such. The burden of proof is on the presenter, i.e. you. The vast majority of the time, the person presenting the material is the one responsible when others do not understand or appreciate it.


Point 3:

This is just sound personal advice... Stop telling people you are an alien, an archangel, or anything other than human unless you have incontrovertible evidence. Genetic anomalies in an otherwise normal human genome, or cellular anomalies in an otherwise normal cell are very very weak evidence. Saying that you look like a white guy with an Asian skull and black man's blood makes you on par with the rest of the human race since globalization occurred. You are also part Neanderthal in all probability as well. That still wouldn't make you unique.

Incontrovertible proof would/could involve things such as the following:
If you are an alien, provide evidence of your ability to travel to or from your point of origin, preferably while carrying some manner of testing equipment that would allow someone to confirm that you did in fact move.

If you are an angel or whatever, perform a few miracle, or what could be classified as miracles, or any other form of non-human activity in front of a panel of experts with some way of measuring your activities.

In short, as my grandfather(a very wise man) would put it, "Put your money where your mouth is or keep it to yourself." If you prefer, the short version is, 'Put up or shut up.'


Now that the two unpleasant bits that I had to say are out of the way, I will comment on some of the points that I think have merit.

Point 4:

I agree that, should we ever manage to get down to the nuts and bolts of everything, we will find EM to be at the core. However, until I see some proof of dark matter, dark energy, or any other form of matter or energy that can not be seen, tested, detected, or otherwise directly observed I can not bring myself to use those forms as the basis for any rational argument.

So, before I get into questioning your idea to closely, I suggest that we start at the very fundamental building blocks of your whole concept by asking: Can you prove that dark matter or dark energy exist? And by this I mean proof that any and every person could accept as proof, i.e. direct observation of the phenomena.

Observations of effects do not count in my humble opinion. The reason should be quite clear if you are familiar with scientific history at all. Observation of indirect affects leads to completely erroneous concepts like a flat earth or heat transfer via aether.

Point 5:

I am a theist, and I make no bones about it. As such, I feel it would be hypocritical of me to chastise you for believing in UI's, Aliens, God, gods, goddesses, magic, or purple elephants with white spots. So, whether you believe it or not, I actually welcome your speculation on these topics. Please, though, do be mindful of how incredulous your own words sound, and how you come across to others.

Hopefully, you will take these for how they are meant, which is as a fresh start for you to come into our little web based home and treat the people here with the consideration and respect that they deserve while presenting reasoned and rational discussions of topics that we are all curious or passionate about.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 21:41 (4735 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained


Hopefully, you will take these for how they are meant, which is as a fresh start for you to come into our little web based home and treat the people here with the consideration and respect that they deserve while presenting reasoned and rational discussions of topics that we are all curious or passionate about.

Bravo!

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Monday, November 14, 2011, 20:30 (4736 days ago) @ dhw

ABEL: Perhaps it is I, but since you asked for examples I will provide a few.

dhw: "Abel, I’m struggling to find any coherence in your history of Planets X and Earth. (3 Nov 11 15:21)" This is not derisive but true, and I’ve consistently pointed out what I consider to be the inconsistencies.

The whole point of this example was to point out how brains make mistakes. Somehow in just "patching" what I wrote, you left out a sentence which gave my message important meaning. What I wrote was, "Perhaps it is I, but since you asked for examples I will provide a few. I will color those words that might be considered derisive." This was important to include for a couple of reasons. The first it would have saved you from responding to those portions of your statements that I did not consider derisive. The second, it would have shown other readers that the color content was added to clarify the point that I was making, not just to annoy them with bright colors.

I consider it derisive to tell a man that has presented a theory whose components are basically the same as those used by many others, that his argument lacks "any coherence". I could be typing random letters and words and that would lack any coherence. And even if you did believe what you wrote was true, would you also call fat women fat, ugly people ugly and stupid people stupid because it is also true? Just how polite of an Englishman are you? And what do Englishmen call derision?

I could also address every other point that you made, but I am done here. I have my perceptions and you have yours as does everyone else who has read our posts.

Intelligent design

by dhw, Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 13:12 (4736 days ago) @ Abel

ABEL: I consider it derisive to tell a man that has presented a theory whose components are basically the same as those used by many others, that his argument lacks "any coherence". I could be typing random letters and words and that would lack any coherence. And even if you did believe what you wrote was true, would you also call fat women fat, ugly people ugly and stupid people stupid because it is also true? Just how polite of an Englishman are you? And what do Englishmen call derision?
I could also address every other point that you made, but I am done here. I have my perceptions and you have yours as does everyone else who has read our posts.

In my post of 3 November at 15.21, my exact words were: “I am struggling to find any coherence in your history of Planets X and Earth. May I impose on your patience and ask you to give me direct answers to the following questions, some of which I’ve asked before but which you have not answered.” There followed a list of questions relating to arguments that in my view did not cohere, the briefest and simplest of which was what you meant by the expression “a measure of immortality”. Coherence = “logical or natural connection or consistency” (Collins), and I could and can see no logic in such an expression. Why you should consider this an insult on a par with being called fat or ugly or stupid is beyond my comprehension. You did, however, give me answers to some of the questions. For instance, the “measure of immortality” was 40,000 years. I still think that either one is immortal or one is not.


You accused me of derision (= mockery) for repeating your claim that you knew which sections of the bible were true because “I have a gift when it comes to spotting the truth”. If you regard your own words as worthy of derision, so be it. You also accused me of significant distortion because, for instance, you had never said that heaven sent aliens to teach us a lesson, though you devoted a whole section to this subject on 2 November at 23.04. But you are right: you have your perceptions and I have mine, and perhaps it’s best if we leave it at that.

Intelligent design

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 00:32 (4735 days ago) @ Abel

I consider it derisive to tell a man that has presented a theory whose components are basically the same as those used by many others, that his argument lacks "any coherence". I could be typing random letters and words and that would lack any coherence. And even if you did believe what you wrote was true, would you also call fat women fat, ugly people ugly and stupid people stupid because it is also true? Just how polite of an Englishman are you? And what do Englishmen call derision?


Then by all means present your argument in a cohesive fashion. Start from the beginning. Present your argument in step one, step two fashion. Ensure that there are no logical jumps between steps. Saying that there is a lack of coherence in your writing is not derisive, it is informative, also known as constructive criticism. I am not DHW, and I read your arguments straight through, one after another, and you are positively dizzying. You jump from topic to topic without rhyme, reason, or pattern. That, sir, is not how to present an argument unless your sole purpose is to keep the audience so confused that they are too bewildered by your randomness to respond, thereby making you the default winner and your own eyes and foolish in everyone else's. How else do you expect reasonable rational people to respond to such a maelstrom?

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 01:04 (4735 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

I Just how polite of an Englishman are you? And what do Englishmen call derision?


Abel, you need to read closely. B_M is American; his address in the messages tells you that.

Intelligent design

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 01:20 (4735 days ago) @ David Turell

I think that criticism, though wildly unfounded, was aimed at DHW.

However, just so there is no uncertainty, yes, I would tell a fat person that they are fat, an ugly person that they are ugly(though to me ugliness is based more on personality than visual appearance), and an idiot that they are being idiotic. I would tell them not out of spite, but out of love. A fat person should be made aware, if not already, that their condition seriously depreciates the quality and quantity of their life. Along with telling them, I would also likely tender either some offer of assistance in rectifying the situation, or some friendly advice on things they can do for themselves without overly disrupting their lifestyle. More to the point, I would also try to understand WHY they are the way they are. All of that can be confirmed by the simple expediency of asking Dragonsheart82, who has known me since our freshman year in college, and remains one of my closest companions and confidants to this day.

I think it is also worth noting that this has nothing to do with being American, or English, but rather it deals with being a decent human being. Perhaps if more people were willing to take on the unpleasant task of telling others that what they are saying or doing is wrong, hurtful, or destructive the world would be a better place.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Intelligent design

by DragonsHeart @, Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 01:26 (4735 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

I do have to reply to this. Yes, Tony would DEFINITELY tell someone the truth, even if it was painful. He has always been this way, and I, for one, appreciate it. He's told me on no few occasions when I was being a butt-head (I was). I can always count on his honesty. But, he does prefer constructive criticism over cruelty. It's not a matter of telling someone the truth in a manner that hurts them, it's more about telling them in a way that helps them.

Intelligent design

by dhw, Thursday, November 10, 2011, 18:18 (4740 days ago) @ Abel

Abel has been answering my personal questions with the patience of an angel – though it now emerges that he is an archangel. It appears that Adam and Eve were placed on Earth to make the human race more empathic and to create a race of avatars “for the sentinels to walk in”. Adam and Eve’s children were full-blooded empaths, but interbreeding with ordinary humans has resulted in many semi-empathic hybrids. Abel, however, is a full-blooded empath and a non-human archangel, though he was born to a human mother, has physical traits of white, oriental and black people, and cells with three nuclei.

A minor point: I don’t understand the significance of race here. I am white European, married to a black African, and if one of my children had married a Chinese, their offspring might have been just like you. Would that have made them non-human? But I’m far more intrigued by your father, who was one of the creators that made humanity – i.e. a god. You told us that Adam and Eve were “placed” here about 4000 years ago, and even though they weren’t the first humans, there must be a fair chance that your father is still alive, since his lifespan will be around ten times that long. Did he come down to Earth to impregnate your human mother? Do you still have direct contact with him? I apologize for the intrusiveness of these questions, but your story is quite bewildering for stupid humans like myself, so I can only ask you for yet more patience with my attempts to unravel it.

My apologies too for the misunderstanding over who searched for the source of the cancer cure. Syntactically “they” seemed to refer to the Indians, but of course it makes more sense if it was the aliens. These sent the spirit telepaths, whose nature and purpose has me thoroughly confused. They wanted to make you the Messiah, so that you would “talk to the world about saving itself from itself”, which sounds very positive and by my standards rather good. If you refused, they would destroy the world, which sounds just a little negative and by my selfish standards rather bad. You agreed to speak on their behalf, which seems like a fair compromise, but you knew one of them would think you were the Antichrist and would kill you. Clearly, these spirit telepaths (psychopaths?) are fundamentalist Christians, which is a blow not only to the monotheistic Jews and Muslims, but also to conventional Christians and even Jesus himself, since you have told us categorically that there is no one God. Strangely, you do refer to the “Greater Metatron” as God, but that would hardly make sense, since you told us (4 November at 18.43) he was “made” as the first of the 10 sentinels. Who made him, if not the gods?

To continue: in your capacity as the Angel of Death (though you gave that title to the feminine, lesser Metatron), you are busily killing hybrid aliens, but the fundamentalist Christian aliens who keep sending the telepaths presumably still want to save us all by killing us all. Surely they'll have learned by now that you are no use to them, so what stops them from destroying us as they said they would? As for the gods who sent the aliens in the first place (now hundreds of generations later than the original life-giving gods, as they only live some 40,000 years) – what are they doing? Do they also wish to save us by destroying us? And one final question for today: what is this “heaven” you keep mentioning? Are these mortal gods not residing on Planet Y now, having abandoned Planet X and also left Planet Earth?

Once again, I apologize for being so stubbornly literal-minded.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Thursday, November 10, 2011, 05:56 (4741 days ago) @ Abel


Once I could "see" dark matter, I eventually learned to manipulate it. It was possible for me to manipulate it because I am an archangel. This is something people cannot do without the proper tools.

The archangel Gabriel sold us our first brood mare from his ranch in Arlington, Texas. He was a sort of vegan in that he would not eat mammal. He told us who he was and we had dinner together with his wife, which event confirmed his eating habits and his ideation in conversation certainly made us think he thought he was Gabriel. He has since sold his ranch and retired from the paint horse breeding business, but we still have that mare and she is my favorite. Abel, any relation to you?

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Thursday, November 10, 2011, 18:04 (4740 days ago) @ David Turell

David: "The archangel Gabriel sold us our first brood mare from his ranch in Arlington, Texas.........we still have that mare and she is my favorite. Abel, any relation to you?"

Though I believe most people would prefer a good horse to an ass David, I, myself would prefer a mule. I would find its' even-temper and sure-footedness comforting. And I know that I can certainly handle irrational stubbornness in sapient animals much better than I can intelligent men.

There are many who claim to be archangels, because they foolishly believe they want to be an archangel. What fool would claim that they will never be a citizen of heaven. That they shall never be as great as the least of you that leaves this place. All archangels envy humans because they have souls and a very few hate you for it.

The Seven are not supposed to know in life that they are archangels. There is less to be gained from the knowledge then what is lost, and that is hope.

Your deluded friend is not a real archangel, just a man that wants to be a hero, and there is nothing wrong with that. And given that there are only seven sentinels charged with walking this entire world, we could use all the help we can get.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 01:13 (4743 days ago) @ Abel

Abel: "Shorter cables can used to confirm the way this matter tends to gather into a patchwork quilt of pure matter types even when found in a mixed medium like the soil of a valley floor."

In retrospect, I see that it would be better to use longer fiber optic cables that are coiled before being buried rather than short ones. This will provide a better reading. These coils should be placed at least 3 feet below ground.

To ascertain how gravity affects M-matter, coils of fiber optic cables can be buried at differing depths and the concentration of M-matter at those depths ascertained by spectrophotometric readings. Or alternately, the same experiment could be performed in the ocean. Calculations derived from these readings should resolve any questions about what percentage of the universe is comprised of dark matter (EM-matter, E-matter, and M-matter).

Intelligent design

by BBella @, Monday, November 07, 2011, 21:32 (4743 days ago) @ dhw

However, you seem to have a rather one-sided view of humanity....Why must you have a “preference” for animals over humans – can’t you love both? I too love animals, but I have a confession to make: I actually love my wife, grown-up children, grandson and extended family and friends MORE than I love an unknown camel in the Sahara desert. And I believe that among the other 7 billion humans there are vast numbers who are equally loving and worthy of love. Admirable though it is to “practice the tenets of honesty, tolerance and peace”, I would admire you even more if your tenets included love for your fellow humans rather than a general condemnation of humanity because of its “ongoing stupidity”. Why this misanthropy?

I completely agree with the sentiments above, dhw, especially the last statement. And, like you, I too confess I love my family and friends much more than animals as well. But, having been brought up in an abusive situation where animals were the only true "family or friend" I could trust or feel love from, it did take many years to trust even the people who did show me love. As it has been with many children or the forgotten elderly, pet companions, for the most part, will give unconditional love our human family may not be able or have time to give.

Thankfully, I made ammends with my family years ago and hold nothing but love and high regards for them in my heart and mind. I grew to embrace my parents, now quite elderly, with open arms and am there for them always at their every beck and call. In finding myself and healing, I realized they were acting out of their own pain, frustration and teachings they were both brought up with. I've come to believe, when I choose to look with eyes of love, I can view love pretty much anywhere (I hope not to have that belief tested any more than it has been).

I've grown to have much faith in the spirit of humanity and believe good has always out-weighed "evil" and always will. This is my choice to believe, and every day I make it my business to look for proof of my belief.

Sorry for the delay in responding, my pc has been to the pc doc and finally made it back completely healed...for now.

bb

Intelligent design

by dhw, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 16:18 (4742 days ago) @ BBella

BBELLA: I've grown to have much faith in the spirit of humanity and believe good has always out-weighed "evil" and always will. This is my choice to believe, and every day I make it my business to look for proof of my belief.

In this post, you’ve given us another glimpse into your personal life, in which you’ve overcome one adversity after another and emerged with a wonderfully positive attitude that is an example to us all. I really think you should write your autobiography!

Intelligent design

by dhw, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 14:54 (4748 days ago) @ Abel

Abel has explained how our creators evolved on low-entropy Planet X. He has evidence that this planet and these beings exist, and is mailing one item of proof to David. It will be interesting to hear what David makes of it. In the meantime, Abel has also told us that aliens who have visited Planet Earth in UFOs were not our creators but mortal beings like ourselves (also created by the X-ers).

Your intriguing posts spawn lots of questions, and I hope you’ll forgive me if I ask a few. Like BBella, I have a vivid imagination, but my reason likes to fill in the gaps thrown up by the imagination! You said earlier that the universe made “God”, so did your god(s) actually create Planet Earth in the first place, or simply pick on it as suitable for their purposes (apologies if I’ve missed something)? Either way, they would have needed some mode of transport. Would there have been any difference between their spacecraft and those of the ETs from Planet Y? You seem to know a great deal about the Planet Y-ers, so do you have any idea what they were doing here, and how do you know they were/are not our creators? Have you actually seen our creators?

Your description of evolution on Planet X is of life’s building blocks assembling into words, sentences, paragraphs, chapters, books, libraries, and finally conjoined libraries. How does this image differ from evolution on Planet Earth? (I’m ONLY talking about the image – not the materials.)

You write: “Given that destructive events (entropy) was such a rare event, these conjoined libraries were conferred a measure of immortality that conventional matter will never possess.” We’re talking about individual creatures, and you’ve described the evolution of predators, which depend on mortal prey to stay alive. It can be argued that all matter lives on indefinitely (it simply changes its form), but in terms of individual living creatures, either you live forever or you die. Please explain what you mean by a “measure” of immortality. (Important if we’re to understand the nature of these “gods”.)

“Eventually sexual reproduction came to be allowing these cells to exchange genetic gems and garbage greatly accelerating evolution.” Once more your Planet X evolution precisely mirrors that on Earth. The same applies to multicellular competition and intelligence, and the argument that feeding and hunting in dark matter requires greater intelligence (how have you measured it?) than in conventional matter only indicates degree not kind. All we need on Earth is one massive stroke of luck, such as happened on Planet X, and the process is identical. The only difference you have suggested is that in dark matter as you conceive it (you alone appear to know what it’s like), you don’t need the same amount of luck to start things off. As regards the progress of evolution, the argument that X bacteria had to be cleverer than Earth bacteria doesn’t explain why cleverer bacteria should spontaneously evolve into gods whereas not so clever bacteria couldn’t possibly have evolved into humans without divine assistance. If you can believe in self-assembling gods, you might just as well believe in self-assembling humans, and you have the priceless advantage of knowing first-hand that humans exist. The introduction of Planets X (and now Y) does little to add to the logic of your scenario, but then of course all our scenarios ultimately defy logic. Hence agnosticism!

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 23:04 (4748 days ago) @ dhw
edited by unknown, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 23:10

dhw: "You said earlier that the universe made “God”, so did your god(s) actually create Planet Earth in the first place, or simply pick on it as suitable for their purposes (apologies if I’ve missed something)? Either way, they would have needed some mode of transport. Would there have been any difference between their spacecraft and those of the ETs from Planet Y? You seem to know a great deal about the Planet Y-ers, so do you have any idea what they were doing here, and how do you know they were/are not our creators? Have you actually seen our creators?"

The creators (God) did not make any planets, but they have bioformed many. The majority of these are dark matter worlds. This world was picked from many primarily because of the copious amount of water that exists here. This world is a gem among all of the matter worlds in heaven's domain, and it is thus coveted by those that do not believe that humanity is worthy to possess it.

The time craft that the creators use are made solely of EM matter and does not need to consist of the three matter types like those craft that were designed to carry conventional matter . The "lab" that was brought to this world was the first craft that needed to be composed of all four matter types.

A much larger ship was constructed to save the genome of man and animals from the extinction events (ice ages, etc.) that plagued this world. This ship is miles wide and contains a biosphere unto itself. This is the Ark of heaven, and the means by which these aliens came here.

In order to completely understand why they are here, you must first understand the concept of corruption. It is an issue that has plagued the creators from the beginning. To put it simply, the agents that they placed upon this world in living form, were being corrupted by the amplified drives for survival that are needed upon this world as well as the random nature of brain (personality) construction that existed here. To add to that there was an issue of pride. To tell people that you are a god so that they will listen to you is one thing. To have them treat you like a god is another. Eventually, you will start to believe you are a god.

To resolve this a second generation of soldier was made to teach. They were beings of the trinity with a machine-like moral core that resided in EM matter where it should have remained resistant to this corruption. It did remain resistant, but after enough time, it too was corrupted. These beings were called "the Watchers" and were corrupted not only because they began to believe they were gods, but because they came to hate humanity. They grew tired of trying to teach fools. Seeing the civilizations that they gave their lives to build, fall in flames to the clubs and swords of barbarians. They despaired to see the simplest tools they they gave you turned into weapons, the philosophies and religions that they gave to unite you, dividing you. They have come to believe that the only way to teach you is to replace you with a superior race.

But heaven does not walk that way. They do not kill because they want to, they only kill when they need to.

To this end, they created a new generation of soldier to guide this world. A soldier whose moral core was triply backed-up. A soldier, who by his nature and design, would blindly do what they wanted him to do. This soldier was designed to be blissfully unaware of his true nature and thus avoid the traps of pride that might cause him to stumble. This new generation of soldiers were called, "the seven sentinels" ( a.k.a. the seven thunders) and they have walked in the avatars born from the line of Adam and Eve since the dawn of the Age of Aries.

These aliens are here because they are corrupted. They blemished the perfect premises that they were given concerning the use of the spirit technology that they possess and have thus become evil. Though many books have been written about what might have happened if the Nazis won WWII, they are all wrong.
Once the Nazis had spread their genocidal philosophies across the world and killed all the lessor races, religions, ethnicities, etc. and finally had a world with just one "master" race with just one religion, they would have found their "friends from the stars" had different ideas about which race was the "master" race. And then humanity would be extinct at last, and worst of all humanity would have done most of the work.

These aliens and I share two common interests: 1) Saving the world from humanity's ongoing stupidity and 2) killing each other. Beyond this we can't agree on anything.

You asked if I have ever seen the creators. The answer is yes, but that was long ago. In this life, I have seen Satan, Metatron and Michael (all beings of the trinity: that is archangels). But these are not creators, they are creations. Powerful creations, but creations just the same. Archangels that can interact with the material as we know it, are the source of the "mysterious" and "magical" events that have been traditionally identified with God. Moses did not speak with "God", Moses spoke to Metatron.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Thursday, November 03, 2011, 00:57 (4748 days ago) @ Abel

In reading my last few posts I realized that I should make the following clarification about time ships.

Time ships that are designed to carry conventional matter consist of a minimum of three types of matter (normal, M-matter and EM matter). Ships of this design have a singular dial on the EM-matter containment vessel that functions as a simple rheostat for that vessel. Ships designed as science vessels would have two dials that would allow one to modulate the electric and magnetic energies separately. The first ship that came to this world was probably of the latter design (but didn't have to be). The majority of alien ships that are here now are most probably of the former since they are much easier to make (but less useful).

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Thursday, November 03, 2011, 14:30 (4747 days ago) @ Abel

In reading my last few posts I realized that I should make the following clarification about time ships.

Time ships that are designed to carry conventional matter consist of a minimum of three types of matter (normal, M-matter and EM matter). Ships of this design have a singular dial on the EM-matter containment vessel that functions as a simple rheostat for that vessel. Ships designed as science vessels would have two dials that would allow one to modulate the electric and magnetic energies separately. The first ship that came to this world was probably of the latter design (but didn't have to be). The majority of alien ships that are here now are most probably of the former since they are much easier to make (but less useful).

I love your fanciful stories, but cannot take them seriously. They do not advance real study of true science. They are pseudoscience (but also great science fiction):

"My topic today is scientific heresy. When are scientific heretics right and when are they mad? How do you tell the difference between science and pseudoscience?

Let us run through some issues, starting with the easy ones.

â– Astronomy is a science; astrology is a pseudoscience.
â– Evolution is science; creationism is pseudoscience.
â– Molecular biology is science; homeopathy is pseudoscience.
â– Vaccination is science; the MMR scare is pseudoscience.
â– Oxygen is science; phlogiston was pseudoscience.
â– Chemistry is science; alchemy was pseudoscience.

Are you with me so far?

A few more examples. That the earl of Oxford wrote Shakespeare is pseudoscience. So are the beliefs that Elvis is still alive, Diana was killed by MI5, JFK was killed by the CIA, 911 was an inside job. So are ghosts, UFOs, telepathy, the Loch Ness monster and pretty well everything to do with the paranormal. Sorry to say that on Halloween, but that’s my opinion.

Three more controversial ones. In my view, most of what Freud said was pseudoscience.

So is quite a lot, though not all, of the argument for organic farming.

So, in a sense by definition, is religious faith. It explicitly claims that there are truths that can be found by other means than observation and experiment.

Now comes one that gave me an epiphany. Crop circles*.

It was blindingly obvious to me that crop circles were likely to be man-made when I first starting investigating this phenomenon. I made some myself to prove it was easy to do*.

This was long before Doug Bower and Dave Chorley fessed up to having started the whole craze after a night at the pub."

Taken from a lecture on WUWT.com 11/1/11 (What's up with that, thank you Matt Ridley)

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Thursday, November 03, 2011, 21:13 (4747 days ago) @ David Turell

David: "I love your fanciful stories, but cannot take them seriously. They do not advance real study of true science. They are pseudoscience (but also great science fiction)"

I would never think of advancing the precepts of anything that I believed to be false (pseudo). I am a sincere believer in the truth and the power of reason conferred to those who use it exclusively. But our brains don't tend to work that way. Our left brain lies quite a lot and we of course believe it. Thus we have such curious and strange things as liberal and conservative interpretations of laws and other simple truths as our brain puts its' own "spin" on things. Now you can see why our Supreme Court (a group of "experts") can't agree on the meaning of the constitution, why the faithful can't agree on the meaning of a few teachings, and why the majority of scientists when presented with a simple theorum (not theory) detailing the strategic (not tactical) defeat of cancer, would naturally believe, "It can't be that simple" and many of them will die (some of cancer) believing that myth.

If our NASA scientists gave the same "twists" to math as we do to logic, all are rockets would as lost as we are. Fortunately our politicians and theologians have no say whether it is a liberal or conservative rocket that NASA is currently launching (and you know they'd argue about it).

It unfortunate that this corruption of the truth will tend to grow from generation to generation actually traveling further away from fact unless there is some empiric feedback that that truth is being corrupted. Without this feedback these flawed perceptions and understandings are passed from father to son as sins of knowledge and understanding. Many good men have died trying to correct those sins, and some were actually killed by the "faithful" as heretics and sinners.

Now I think that both you and I can agree that science is the only way that the future can be predicted. After all, we use science to predict the future all the time. If I mixed hydrogen and water and applied a spark, not only could I "predict" an explosion, heat, and the formation of water but by using chemical equilibrium constants I could predict the concentrations of all the reactants and products formed by that reaction. It's not magic. In a similar fashion, our NASA scientists "predicted" where our Mars rovers would land, long after they were launched. These men and women are certainly very bright, but no one would call them "prophets".

As you teach men that science is a way to "predict" what will happen, you can see how a simple explanation might (over the generations) be "expanded" by those without understanding into a "mystical" or pseudoscience. Astrology (initially just math and astronomy) is a fine example of this. A tool corrupted by fools with an incomplete understanding of science.

Men corrupt tools by nature. They turn things into weapons so that their ambitions will prevail. Thus such a simple thing as a hammer that can be used as a tool to build a house with 10,000 blows by a good man, can also be used as a weapon by an evil man to steal a house with just one.

The tool given to men to move huge stones easily was used not only to build homes and cities but to build such monuments of suffering as the pyramids. And if this was not enough, the device's intent was further corrupted when an accident doubtlessly catapulted some hapless soul hundreds of feet to his death. And thus, the catapult was born as well as the concept of the utility of such siege weapons.

Of course many don't believe this. Men turn tools into weapons by nature what a preposterous concept! To examine this I will utterly ignore those things that we would normally consider weapons, like Newtonian or nuclear physics. I won't even talk about our bio-weapons, chem weapons, gun, knives, swords, clubs, hammers, bows, darts, etc. that would not serve my point well. Let us talk about medicine, the noblest profession, whose creed "First do no Harm" is doubtlessly known to you.

The practice of medicine (the noblest profession) has been weaponized. Our pharmaceutical industry routinely extorts their living from our dying while our politician and theologians are silent (some do applaud). Perhaps it is just me, but this seems to violate that high ideal of "doing no harm" when it financially cripples the families of our sick and dying so that they cannot afford to feed and shelter themselves much less those they love. Though cancer can currently be cured with cheap, unpatentable medicines, those medicines have been financially "orphaned" while expensive new analogs of these drugs are developed. Millions of people in agony die every year simply because no one can yet exploit their suffering.

Since it seems to be your intent to become a doctor, these words to might guide you in perfecting the practice of your profession. I sincerely wish you the best of luck in the field.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Friday, November 04, 2011, 01:23 (4747 days ago) @ Abel


The practice of medicine (the noblest profession) has been weaponized. Our pharmaceutical industry routinely extorts their living from our dying while our politician and theologians are silent (some do applaud). Perhaps it is just me, but this seems to violate that high ideal of "doing no harm" when it financially cripples the families of our sick and dying so that they cannot afford to feed and shelter themselves much less those they love.

The cost of doing 'effective drug' finding is extremely expensive. The Pharmas must have their labs supported so they can find those drugs, and yes, those folks are in business to make money, but so are MD's. For some reason we all need money to live, including the poor. The solution is a safety-net program for the indigent and poor so their medication is adffordable. We can't afford to kill Pharma or we won't have new treatments.

Though cancer can currently be cured with cheap, unpatentable medicines, those medicines have been financially "orphaned" while expensive new analogs of these drugs are developed. Millions of people in agony die every year simply because no one can yet exploit their suffering.

The real problem is 'orphaned' illnesses, where so few folks have the disease, no one company wants to search for a cure, because there is no profit in it. Here government subsidy of PHarma is a must.


Since it seems to be your intent to become a doctor, these words to might guide you in perfecting the practice of your profession. I sincerely wish you the best of luck in the field.

I've had my luck, thank you. I was a practicing internist-cardiologist for over 30 years and retired at the end of 1991.

Intelligent design

by BBella @, Thursday, November 03, 2011, 04:25 (4748 days ago) @ Abel

I generally prefer animals to people. They manage to "walk the walk" without talking at all. But they aren't as divorced from their instincts (God's laws) as we are.

Most of my life I've preferred animals to people as well, for the same reason. But now I like grandkids too, but the animals still mind better. I've always been a rescuer of animals, get them well and stable then find them good homes. I tried to do the same with people but it didn't work out.

Moses did not speak with "God", Moses spoke to Metatron.

Is this the same Metatron spoken of in the Book of Enoch and the Zohar?

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Friday, November 04, 2011, 18:43 (4746 days ago) @ BBella

BBella: " I've always been a rescuer of animals, get them well and stable then find them good homes. I tried to do the same with people but it didn't work out."


I can always use a good laugh. Thank you BBella.


BBella:" "Is this the same Metatron spoken of in the Book of Enoch and the Zohar?"

There are two Metatrons. The primal Metatron is the first of the 10 sentinels made. The three above are classically called guardian angels, the seven who walk the path of life are the "voices of heaven" (a.k.a. the seven saints, the seven sentinels or the seven thunders of heaven). Each of the sentinels has a personality that is different than the others, thus they are each designed for the specific role that they have been given.

The last sentinel made to walk this world (a.k.a. the seventh sentinel) is the feminine aspect of the Primal Metatron. He/she is the physician of heaven. This lessor Metatron is the "hovering" power of God and though a healer, is more often associated with the darker half of his/her duties. In this role, he/she is known as "the angel of death". This lesser Metatron (a shadow of God) was born as Enoch. Enoch did not "ascend" to become Metatron.

The Primal Metatron is he of whom I speak. He is the general of the archangels that are stationed here. To put this in perspective, the three above are all officers, while the seven who walk the path, are all enlisted.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 01:01 (4749 days ago) @ Abel


Now David, concerning my experiences with dark matter and the dark matter technology I possess, those experiences were either very real, or I am very psychotic.

The second piece of evidence that I have is a another dark matter machine, this one "stuck" in my feet/lower legs. Though I have yet to determine exactly what function the radiance that it emits has, I am leaning towards the conclusion that it accelerates seed germination.

You are the only human in this universe to possess relatively complete knowledge of dark matter and dark energy according to the following article:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111031081920.htm

Your defense? there is a Nobel Prize waiting!

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 04:49 (4749 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by unknown, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 05:02

David: "You are the only human in this universe to possess relatively complete knowledge of dark matter and dark energy according to the following article:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111031081920.htm

Your defense? there is a Nobel Prize waiting!"


I choose leaders, while I do not chose to lead. That is my way.


David: "Are we going back to Roswell? From your theories I should have known aforehand you must believe in UFO's and alien visitations. Shaky ground here!"

The aliens within these ships are made of conventional matter, like you or I, while our and their creator(s) are made of EM matter.

These aliens were derived from our genome. Thus if one was examined, he/she would appear to a "mutant" human whose genome was ~98%+ human. But this is flawed reasoning.
A closer examination will reveal that the knee and elbow joints have been re-engineered giving them greater strength (but making these aliens walk strangely) The skull was redesigned with such features as a pronounced overbrow and a lowered brain pan that pushed the back of the mandible down, inducing a perpetual and pronounced frown as a standardized facial feature of this species. In addition, an examination of an alien's brain would reveal that, not only was it bigger, but it possessed two bilaterally-symmetric vertical "structures" of "unknown" utility residing between the existing lobes of the brain. These aliens represent the forth species of man.

The ships that you saw in the links were made of aluminum sheet metal (covered with a M-matter "oxide") supported by a rigid aluminum framework. This oxide is being temporally "illuminated" by a temporally concentrated solution of a EM cesium isotope that is isolated in a containment chamber at the peak of the vessel and in the same shape as the vessel itself. The gamma rays from this source "propels" electrons in the M-matter which is covalently attached to an electron on the aluminum of the craft's shell into a EM saturated orbital creating a temporal "bubble" around the ship. Practically the only thing that would bring this ship down is an event that pierces the integrity of this "bubble" from the inside ( a hole or rip in the aluminum shell).

I looked at the information concerning the Roswell incident, and I cannot rule out that it happened. At the time, these aliens were experimenting with building ships out of man-made materials. Though it may seem counter-intuitive, these ships can be built with aluminum-covered fabric with a wooden frame (the materials found at Roswell). A rip in a seam of this experimental craft would have brought it down like a rock (a meteor if it was moving). The radar dish that they admitted they found could have been this vessel's containment device. If it was it should have had two concentric wheels (with graduations) made of a non-conductive material on what was the bottom of the containment device. Spinning one wheel open will cause it to emit magnetic interference, closing it then spinning the other wheel open will cause it to emit electrostatic energy and light. Opening them both will cause it to emit light. Drilling a hole into this devise would reveal it to be apparently "empty" and if that hole was placed down instead of up (we lack the technology to seal it) the charge on that wondrous gadget would slowly dissipate as the EM cesium isotope it contained leaked into the earth.

But again, these aliens are not the creators, they are creations. Flawed creations, but creations just the same.

Intelligent design

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 17:03 (4748 days ago) @ Abel

Abel might like to submit his research proposals to this competition:

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/643549-origin-of-life-challenge-how-did-life-begin

$50,000 award for research proposal into abiogenesis.

"Submissions that rely on extraterrestrial sources of key materials must describe in detail how those materials would have been generated. Submissions involving the supernatural or that violate physical laws will not be considered."

--
GPJ

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 18:52 (4637 days ago) @ Abel

I would like to make a minor correction to the preceding post. Each temporal polarization event results in the loss of four dimensional quadrants and four particle types. Two of these particle types are antiparticles. In each quadrant there are two particles of the same type that differ only by their spin. Thus eight particles are lost with each polarization event.-Therefore SEM matter (primal matter) has 36 quadrants and 36 particle types while EM matter has 32. Both M matter and E matter have 28 quadrants and 28 particle types. Matter as we understand it, has 24 quadrants and 24 particle types.-I hope this clarifies things a bit.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 20:45 (4637 days ago) @ Abel


> Therefore SEM matter (primal matter) has 36 quadrants and 36 particle types while EM matter has 32. Both M matter and E matter have 28 quadrants and 28 particle types. Matter as we understand it, has 24 quadrants and 24 particle types.
> 
> I hope this clarifies things a bit.-This does not fit any currectly accepted science. It just changes your statements.

Intelligent design

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Wednesday, November 09, 2011, 01:57 (4742 days ago) @ Abel

I have nothing to really debate here.

Robert Shapiro (Found via David) offers many arguments here, but he clearly wasn't about ready to abandon the search. Keep in mind, modern chemistry has had its current form for barely 50-60 years. Computer Science is an equally young field:

With all things I take the monolithic perspective: Something isn't ruled out until its at least had as much time to be discredited as the time it took for the Egyptian mythos to be discredited. Or Pythagoras. (Take your pick.)

(So in other words, you need something stronger than inductive arguments to move me.)

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Intelligent design

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Wednesday, November 09, 2011, 01:44 (4742 days ago) @ Abel

...

Now I will address some the gaps in evolutionary theory itself. There are a number of structures with the cell that constructed from components that have no function unto themselves. Why would they evolve separately when they only make sense as an assembly? Molecular motors, rotors, dimeric and tetrameric proteins, etc, are examples of these.

In the evolutionary record itself, there are huge gaps where life seems to take a leap from one form to another without any intermediates.

Intelligent design logically addresses all of these observations. It does not make any stipulations about the nature of the engineer(s). Whether it was an all-powerful God (as theists believe) or a race of beings whose technology is so advanced (and strange) that it appears to be magic (my belief) is not a part of that theory.

Logically, but not evidentially... from an objectively decisive viewpoint. David likes to say "Intelligence is like pornography. I know it when I see it." I'm not so "common-sensical." We have devised no test that can truly determine intelligence from non-intelligence. At best, claims of intelligence sit in the morass.

The vast majority of scientists reject this theory because of politics and faith, certainly not because of good science.

Not exactly. There is NO valid and universal test for intelligence, therefore, there is no objective measure of intelligence. That life is complex, is not in itself, evidence of intelligence. If evolution by NS is tautology, so too is God. And then we're left with determining which explanation is better... and by and large man sides with the reproducible...

Consider this, if the Mars rover found words etched into a rock that said “welcome to mars, zebo was here first” would we believe this was eroded into the rock by the action of wind and sand? What if we found a tool as simple as a kitchen knife? Would we believed it evolved? If we did find those things on Mars and a scientist suggested they “evolved’ there, he/she would be laughed out of the room.

Reworded watchmaker.

I have done the calculations to determine the odds of randomly assembling an mRNA strand coding for a functional 300 AA protein, using a racemic mix of RNA. That number quite easily exceeds the number of seconds that the universe has existed, multiplied by the number of bosons in the known universe. Given that life appeared on earth about 200 million years after it was cool enough to even possibly support it, it seems that we won a cosmic lottery with the very first ticket we bought. I don’t believe it for a New York minute, and any scientist that does is a good candidate to buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

But did you account for multiple, parallel, simultaneous trials?<--If you answer nothing, answer that. As a computer scientist I&apos;m well aware of the power of an exponential growth of adding &quot;processors&quot; to a problem. The impossible becomes probable. The probable becomes likely. The likely becomes routine.

When abiogenesis occurred it happened in a much larger pool of matter, over a much longer period of time, someplace where entropy was not tearing every macromolecule to shreds before the first chapter of the book of life could be written. The beings that evolved on that world are the ones that seeded this one and tried to guide evolution (it’s like herding kittens) to create the intelligence that they desired. Call this race the first race, the ancients, the Elohim, God, god(s), ET’s, angels, archangels, whatever you want, the archaeological evidence of their existence is in the tools that they made.&quot;

Strictly speaking, abiogenesis is a purely unknown field... strictly speaking: We don&apos;t know.

Clearly, SOMETHING had to happen to animate matter. As for me... I&apos;m not prepared to state with any level of certainty, WHAT or HOW.

Thanks again.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Thursday, November 10, 2011, 21:09 (4740 days ago) @ xeno6696

xeno6696: &quot;But did you account for multiple, parallel, simultaneous trials?<--If you answer nothing, answer that. As a computer scientist I&apos;m well aware of the power of an exponential growth of adding &quot;processors&quot; to a problem. The impossible becomes probable. The probable becomes likely. The likely becomes routine.&quot;

I used a conventional analysis. Statistics are not my strong point, and I try to use only those tools I understand.

I have seen computer models where books and phrases are &quot;randomly&quot; written by measuring the random code generated by a &quot;measure of correctness&quot; (i.e. the answer your looking for). I find this approach conceptually flawed, however I don&apos;t know anything about the techniques that you mentioned so I cannot venture a comment about the appropriateness of their use in resolving this problem.

Intelligent design

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Monday, November 28, 2011, 02:28 (4723 days ago) @ Abel

xeno6696: &quot;But did you account for multiple, parallel, simultaneous trials?<--If you answer nothing, answer that. As a computer scientist I&apos;m well aware of the power of an exponential growth of adding &quot;processors&quot; to a problem. The impossible becomes probable. The probable becomes likely. The likely becomes routine.&quot;

I used a conventional analysis. Statistics are not my strong point, and I try to use only those tools I understand.

I have seen computer models where books and phrases are &quot;randomly&quot; written by measuring the random code generated by a &quot;measure of correctness&quot; (i.e. the answer your looking for). I find this approach conceptually flawed, however I don&apos;t know anything about the techniques that you mentioned so I cannot venture a comment about the appropriateness of their use in resolving this problem.

Math and probability are precisely my strong point. I&apos;ll tell you my thoughts directly. (It will save you time in looking for old posts of mine.)

1. Every statistical argument for (or against) a creator to date I have read has been absolutely naive.

When I say naive, I mean it in the technical sense of mathematics: An analysis working from incomplete data and little knowledge.

I asked the question about parallelism because of this:

A one in a million chance event happens 8x a day in NYC. Most statistical analyses that try to talk about the origin of life (especially from writers like Dembski) compute the odds by asserting only a single event at each step of the process. They do this on purpose in order to build a better statistical argument. It looks better for their case.

Lets take a 1:10 chance. Lets assume that our event happens whenever the dice rolls to a 1.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

What are the odds of choosing 8? 8 is still technically a failed event, but your chance of picking it is 1:10, just like your success.

This leads in to the fallacy that most atheists trip into:

All chances are equal. In dice, yes, in life, no. Our 10-sided die is loaded to almost never pick 1.

However--and this is the argument that IS NOT a fallacy from the atheistic side, if you instead roll 1M (M = million) 10-sided die, many, many, times--you will undoubtedly get a 1 eventually.

I make it clear that this statistical analysis can ONLY be resolved IF (and only if) we are successful in creating life from scratch, meaning abiogenesis. Until then, as far as I&apos;m concerned, statistical arguments for or against have no merit for any discussion whatsoever beyond the hypothetical.

What are the odds of life occurring by chance? We literally don&apos;t know. We don&apos;t know the odds of life occurring by design any better.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Intelligent design

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Wednesday, November 09, 2011, 01:33 (4742 days ago) @ Abel

Abel,

WELCOME!!!

I have (in the past) been a much more prolific contributor to the site, who has been sidetracked this year. (Getting a Master&apos;s in CS as well as working full-time with a wife... no kids, but that might pop up at any time.)

From your opening post--your unorthodox theism is precisely something that is needed here.

Myself... I&apos;m a Buddhist in practice, an agnostic in disposition, and a materialist in practice...

If you can make sense of any of that, my hats off to you! But feel free to ask questions.

Ground rules for dealing with me:

1. No topic is taboo.

2. I have no problem with arguing positions I don&apos;t believe in. This can confuse people as to what I *really* think. If in doubt ask. But be aware, I&apos;m as likely to respond in parable (or flippancy) as I am in answering directly.

3. When in doubt, consult 1.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Intelligent design

by BBella @, Wednesday, November 09, 2011, 21:00 (4741 days ago) @ xeno6696

Abel,

WELCOME!!!

From your opening post--your unorthodox theism is precisely something that is needed here.


1. No topic is taboo.

I agree with Matt! I appreciate Abel&apos;s fresh perspective even if it does seem a bit far out. I too, in times past (seems like years ago now) brought to the Agnostic table here, my &quot;belief&quot; that earth was possibly seeded by an older race of beings from another planet. Of course, there may not be scientific proof (altho few are seeking it), but as an avid (addicted is more like it) fan of the show, Ancient Aliens, it seems to me we have more than enough artifactual fuel for the fire being uncovered everyday that may just point to this very possibility, for anyone who is open-minded enough to ponder these things. Also, there is a growing consensus among Earthlings that we are not alone on this planet and never have been. Giving this consideration, and our circuitus discussions here, I believe Abel&apos;s arrival is right on time.

bb

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 09, 2011, 22:52 (4741 days ago) @ BBella

Abel,

WELCOME!!!

From your opening post--your unorthodox theism is precisely something that is needed here.


1. No topic is taboo.


I agree with Matt! I appreciate Abel&apos;s fresh perspective even if it does seem a bit far out. I too, in times past (seems like years ago now) brought to the Agnostic table here, my &quot;belief&quot; that earth was possibly seeded by an older race of beings from another planet. Of course, there may not be scientific proof (altho few are seeking it), but as an avid (addicted is more like it) fan of the show, Ancient Aliens, it seems to me we have more than enough artifactual fuel for the fire being uncovered everyday that may just point to this very possibility, for anyone who is open-minded enough to ponder these things. Also, there is a growing consensus among Earthlings that we are not alone on this planet and never have been. Giving this consideration, and our circuitus discussions here, I believe Abel&apos;s arrival is right on time.


I agree, and right on with the myths and propositions, as long as we recognize the difference between scientific findings, their meanings, and the other fanciful stuff. If I remember correctly our Milky Way is about 100,000 light years across, so visitors would have to be very old to get here by our standards of lifetimes.On the otherhand, suspended animation?.

Intelligent design

by Abel @, Wednesday, November 09, 2011, 23:44 (4741 days ago) @ David Turell

David: &quot;If I remember correctly our Milky Way is about 100,000 light years across, so visitors would have to be very old to get here by our standards of lifetimes.On the otherhand, suspended animation?.&quot;

There is a huge difference between objective and subjective time expression even in the limited way that it can be expressed in this form of matter. At 99.9999%+ of the speed of light, a man could live to make a 100,000 light year journey, much less a being that can directly alter its&apos; temporal spin frequency and lives much longer than a man.

Intelligent design

by David Turell @, Thursday, November 10, 2011, 00:34 (4741 days ago) @ Abel

David: &quot;If I remember correctly our Milky Way is about 100,000 light years across, so visitors would have to be very old to get here by our standards of lifetimes.On the otherhand, suspended animation?.&quot;

There is a huge difference between objective and subjective time expression even in the limited way that it can be expressed in this form of matter. At 99.9999%+ of the speed of light, a man could live to make a 100,000 light year journey, much less a being that can directly alter its&apos; temporal spin frequency and lives much longer than a man.

How does one overcome the diminished size at 99.9999% the speed of light. That is a might squeeze!

Intelligent design

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 01:10 (4735 days ago) @ Abel

Abel,

I wanted to say that while it may seem at first like I am hostile towards you, I assure you that I am not. I do understand how it is to be passionate about a subject and even to firmly believe in something despite heavy criticism and opposition. Nor do I want, in any way, to drive you away from posting here. Quite the opposite, honestly. Fresh ideas and perspectives are always welcome.

However, despite our varied backgrounds and beliefs, one of the fundamental hallmarks of this site which I have come to deeply appreciate is an atmosphere of open-mindedness moderated by skepticism and a thorough examination. Belief without questioning is not something that you will find from any of our regulars.

Whatever you post here will be examined under a microscope, turn inside out, around and upside down. Don&apos;t take it personally. Instead, embrace it as a way of refining your own thoughts and ideas. Examine the responses you get with the same open-mindedness that you expect us to show when examining your ideas.

All and all, I think you will find that the experience is a thousand times more rewarding this way.

Regards,
Tony

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

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