In essence, every external sensation that we experience is motion, and all of that motion is interpreted via our brains into something meaningful. In order for it to be meaningful, it must be believed in. You must have faith that what your senses are telling you is not only real, but that the patterns they detect are of some value in one form or another.-In this sense you are correct, but most of us believe what we see, hear, feel, smell, etc. are real representations of our reality, even though our bodies send ionized signals over various distances to various neuron networks for interpretation. It is all very amazing, and extremely complex. Which has always been my main point in these discussions. The more we research life, the more complex the living processes are shown to be, the more reason for an intelligent diety, because the odds against chance doing all of this become infinitely small.


> I don't find it necessary to believe in God. I do, but that is me. What is troubling to me about this line of thought is what it infers into the question of values. Specifically, why bother valuing something that has no worth outside my own head? What value do I hold outside of my head, or that of others? There are other more wild ideas that go floating around my head when I get wrapped up in a train of thought like this, but the core of what bothers me about this line of thinking is that I inevitably come back to the question of, why bother? Why bother doing all the things that we do for things that do not in fact exist at all as anything other than nebulous transient ideas?-I believe also, but I decided to believe after not believing for many years. therefore I feel I have to believe. As for values outside yourself, do you feel you should leave this mortal coil a better place on departure, than you found it upon entry? I do very strongly, but I felt that way before I came back to God. I think such determinations are an individual matter.

Why bother doing all the things that we do for things that do not in fact exist at all as anything other than nebulous transient ideas?-More musings: -We bother because we are here and really do not have any other choice but to bother. You are. Of course you cannot be sure I am, and I cannot be sure you are. But, you can be sure, you are. Other than that, whether you know for sure what/who else is real and what is not, your desires within the physical matter you found yourself in dictates you bother. -Since there really are no answers to satisfy your wandering mind, or, no one can prove their answers if they think they have the answers (religion/science/etc), why not just choose your own answers for yourself of what to think of it all?-You could think yourself into oblivion, as the thought process above was taking you, but there are a million other choices you could also choose to think. In the end, your choice of how to think about this all is really all you have. So you can take other peoples ideas, or you can grow your own. -In the end, all that really matters (since there are no concrete answers) is that you find peace for your wandering mind. Maybe the closest thing to truth that we really have is our imagination...why not just let it run wild? What would you like for all this to really be about?

Tony (Balance_Maintained): Why bother doing all the things that we do for things that do not in fact exist at all as anything other than nebulous transient ideas?-David and BBella have both offered you some very wise counsel, but I will add my own pennyworth. Philosophically, I have to accept the possibility that life and the world are nothing but a collection of "nebulous transient ideas", but the philosophical level is quite literally a dead end. It kills off all pleasure, all compassion, all love, all art, and in short all the things that we should treasure as part of the gift of life. What's more, it is ridiculously out of touch with all the commonsense realities of experience. BBella is absolutely right to insist that you are here. And I will insist that you are happier well-fed rather than starving, healthy rather than sick, laughing rather than weeping, being kissed rather than kicked, loving rather than hating. So are other people. This present moment and present experience is real to you, and tomorrow's experiences will also be real, and these experiences will go on being real to you until you die. The answer to the question "why bother?" is "because we're happier that way." And there is nothing nebulous about any of the above. Transient, yes ... and if our experiences were not transient, we would be sick of them in no time. I enjoy my daily ration of chocolate, but if you fed me on nothing else, how long do you think my enjoyment would last? It's the transience that gives our pleasures their special value. Even relationships constantly change, just as our own bodies are never the same from one day to the next. -It seems strange to me that someone who believes in God should question the value of his own and other people's happiness. Do you think your God could really have given us this life so that we would merely moan about its transience? My advice to you would be to get on doing all the things you really like, and do them while you're still able to do them. The one condition would be that they should not cause harm to others or to yourself (so watch it with those cigarettes). I don't know how old you are, but for heaven's sake don't "why bother" yourself into crusty old age, and then look back and start wishing you had bothered.