Second law violation? Let\'s ask Matt (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Tuesday, June 14, 2011, 15:54 (4911 days ago)

Granville Sewell has a paper which thinks the second law is violated on Earth. He is a U. Texas math professor:-http://www.math.utep.edu/Faculty/sewell/AML_3497.pdf

Second law violation? Let\'s ask Matt

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, June 14, 2011, 23:16 (4911 days ago) @ David Turell

Granville Sewell has a paper which thinks the second law is violated on Earth. He is a U. Texas math professor:
> 
> http://www.math.utep.edu/Faculty/sewell/AML_3497.pdf-There's many problems with the paper, first, as a mathematician, he does provide an interesting analysis of the entropy equations, but his only real argument is this "...this has been noticed by relatively few people, no doubt because usually the special case of isotropic heat conduction or diffusion is assumed, ..." -What he means by this "assumption" is purely that diffusion is an assumption and only an assumption taken into the equation, and while mathematically this is true, the big difference between physics and mathematics is that physics is used to describe observed phenomenon. (Or at the least, phenomenon that we can experimentally observe in the near future.) There is no instance where diffusion doesn't happen in nature. In other words--there is no experimental counter-case to refute diffusion. It happens deterministically.-
The 2nd law is in effect in our own bodies; we have to eat. All life must consume energy; this energy either comes from the sun or comes from other creatures. All organisms lose 90% of that energy (on average) to just stay alive. Some creatures (deermice) literally can't stop eating for more than an hour. All life suffers from this to a greater or lesser extent. -Short of this, he doesn't actually provide a proof of any kind. He literally just points out what he calls an "assumption." -Second, many of his other arguments take leaps and bounds: a lack of entropy causes more "order" ie, computers and highways, ie, as if there's some direct causal connection between the 2nd law and the appearance of highways. This is absurd: If you compute the amount of energy it takes to build a highway (and ESPECIALLY a computer), MUCH more disorder is created in the world than by this seeming act of creating order. -A refrigerator is a prime example here: It works by using energy to get rid of heat and pumping it into the box. But it always takes more energy (resulting in entropy by burning coal, gas, or the decay of radioactive isotopes) to accomplish that cooling. The end result is that more disorder was created. -The final caveat is this: ALL life creates more disorder by its existence than is created in terms of "order." Life exists because of diffusion, not in spite of it. And I put "order" in quotes, because clearly the process is asymmetric. Energy pyramids in ecosystems invariably demonstrate that top predators have a lower population density than prey, and this jump is directly tied to trophic levels. (How close they are to the sun's energy.) There's 90% less individuals the further you get from the sun's energy in terms of chemical energy.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Second law violation? Let\'s ask Matt

by David Turell @, Wednesday, June 15, 2011, 03:28 (4911 days ago) @ xeno6696

Granville Sewell has a paper which thinks the second law is violated on Earth. He is a U. Texas math professor:
> > 
> > http://www.math.utep.edu/Faculty/sewell/AML_3497.pdf
> 
> There's many problems with the paper, first, as a mathematician, he does provide an interesting analysis of the entropy equations, but his only real argument is this "...this has been noticed by relatively few people, no doubt because usually the special case of isotropic heat conduction or diffusion is assumed, ..." -
Thank you for your analysis. I knew we were degrading ourselves and many other sources of energy outside of us. Your comments make perfect sense.

Second law violation? Let\'s ask Matt

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Wednesday, June 15, 2011, 11:25 (4910 days ago) @ David Turell

Granville Sewell has a paper which thinks the second law is violated on Earth. He is a U. Texas math professor:
> > > 
> > > http://www.math.utep.edu/Faculty/sewell/AML_3497.pdf
> > 
> > There's many problems with the paper, first, as a mathematician, he does provide an interesting analysis of the entropy equations, but his only real argument is this "...this has been noticed by relatively few people, no doubt because usually the special case of isotropic heat conduction or diffusion is assumed, ..." 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your analysis. I knew we were degrading ourselves and many other sources of energy outside of us. Your comments make perfect sense.-I want to add exactly what I mean by "mathematically this is true." You remember my mathematician joke ending with "...at least one side of which is black?" It's one of those same quirks of mathematics where I can say "We can build a 17-sided figure on paper but not a 19-sided one." We can't build the 19-sided one purely because no one has provided a proof yet, though trivially, either of us could write a figure with 19-sides. -This kind of "gotcha" only exists in mathematics. -What really... irritated me on that paper is his language "in the special case of ... diffusion." How on God's green earth that's a special case defies explanation and I literally have no idea how this paper made it past review...

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Second law violation? Let\'s ask Matt

by halil ibrahim @, Monday, July 25, 2011, 21:54 (4870 days ago) @ xeno6696

the violation of the second law of the thermodynamics can be shown by radiation heat transfer between two surface through curved mirror.It is explained on web page hsoylu.wordpress.com.

Second law violation? Let\'s ask Matt

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, July 26, 2011, 21:58 (4869 days ago) @ halil ibrahim

the violation of the second law of the thermodynamics can be shown by radiation heat transfer between two surface through curved mirror.It is explained on web page hsoylu.wordpress.com.-Halil,-This is a purely theoretical treatment, akin to Maxwell's Demon.-The damning statement comes during the problem definition here:
"Two surfaces of it have emissivity equal one ε=1 (perfect
absorber) and later two surfaces are perfect reflectors that emit no radiation
ε=0."-There are no instances where such devices have ever been built, because in order to get a "perfect absorber" you would need to acheive the operational temperature of Absolute Zero. As our universe has never reached that temperature (and won't for several billion years) this setup has no practical value on the question of breaking the law of thermodynamics--especially when taking into consideration the fact that neither life nor the Sun are perfectly reflective & absorptive surfaces.-That said, it is an interesting thought experiment!

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Second law violation? no, new explanation:

by David Turell @, Thursday, May 26, 2022, 16:48 (912 days ago) @ xeno6696

Using quantum entanglement:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/physicists-trace-the-rise-in-entropy-to-quantum-informat...

“'We like laws of physics to be exact,” said the physicist Chiara Marletto of the University of Oxford. Can the second law be tightened up into more than just a statement of likelihoods?

"A number of independent groups appear to have done just that. They may have woven the second law out of the fundamental principles of quantum mechanics — which, some suspect, have directionality and irreversibility built into them at the deepest level. According to this view, the second law comes about not because of classical probabilities but because of quantum effects such as entanglement. It arises from the ways in which quantum systems share information, and from cornerstone quantum principles that decree what is allowed to happen and what is not. In this telling, an increase in entropy is not just the most likely outcome of change. It is a logical consequence of the most fundamental resource that we know of — the quantum resource of information.

***

"Constructor theory aims to express all of physics in terms of statements about possible and impossible transformations. It echoes the way thermodynamics itself began, in that it considers change in the world as something produced by “machines” (constructors) that work in a cyclic fashion, following a pattern like that of the famous Carnot cycle, proposed in the 19th century to describe how engines perform work. The constructor is rather like a catalyst, facilitating a process and being returned to its original state at the end.

***

"The reason for the irreversibility, said Marletto, is that for most complex tasks, a constructor is geared to a given environment. It requires some specific information from the environment relevant to completing that task. But the reverse task will begin with a different environment, so the same constructor won’t necessarily work. “The machine is specific to the environment it is working on,” she said.

***

"Irreversibility is not just the most probable outcome but the inevitable one, governed by the quantum interactions of the components. “Our conjecture,” said Marletto, “is that thermodynamic irreversibility might stem from this.”

***

"The informational perspective on the second law is now being recast as a quantum problem. That’s partly because of the perception that quantum mechanics is a more fundamental description...But it also reflects the burgeoning interest in quantum information theory itself. We can do things with information using quantum principles that we can’t do classically. In particular, entanglement of particles enables information about them to be spread around and manipulated in nonclassical ways. (my bold)

"Crucially, the quantum informational approach suggests a way of getting rid of the troublesome statistical picture that bedevils the classical view of thermodynamics, where you have to take averages over ensembles of many different microstates. “The true novelty with quantum information came with the understanding that one can replace ensembles with entanglement with the environment,” said Carlo Maria Scandolo of the University of Calgary.

***

"The resource-theory approach, said physicist Markus Müller of the University of Vienna, “admits a fully mathematically rigorous derivation, without any conceptual or mathematical loose ends, of the thermodynamic laws and more.” He said that this approach involves “a reconsideration of what one really means by thermodynamics” — it is not so much about the average properties of large ensembles of moving particles, but about a game that an agent plays against nature to conduct a task efficiently with the available resources."
(my bold)

Comment: refining the second law involves quantum mechanics and information, the two bases of our reality. Note my bolds. God's work in design is not easy to unravel.

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