Life\'s biologic complexity (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Wednesday, June 08, 2011, 14:46 (4917 days ago)

Here Cornelius Hunter explains how a cell membrane works primarily in poikilothermic organisms (body temp is mediated by environment). Hunter is an IDer but his account of the changes in the cell wall membrane is very clear and instructive. I feel as he does: how did chance mutations set this up as life developed?- http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/06/biological-control-of-cell-membrane.html

Life\'s biologic complexity

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Thursday, June 09, 2011, 00:04 (4917 days ago) @ David Turell

Just spotted this on twitter. Thought you might like to see it.-http://www.isgtw.org/feature/cern-lends-hand-origin-life-"..."The aim of this research group is to create theory and experiments to produce at least one, or several, candidate evolving protocells in the next decade." That is, creating life in a test tube from basic chemical ingredients."-"Hordijk and his colleague Mike Steel have developed a model of a chemical reaction system where the probability of an arbitrary molecule being a catalyst for an arbitrary reaction was two in a million, a probability that is "chemically plausible" he said. Running this model on the LHC computing grid, he found that, with this level of catalysis, a set of about 65,000 different molecule types or more will have a high probability of forming an autocatalytic set. This is actually reasonable for a chemist in a laboratory to test, he said."-"the origin of life is itself a problem in physics"

--
GPJ

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Thursday, June 09, 2011, 14:48 (4916 days ago) @ George Jelliss

Just spotted this on twitter. Thought you might like to see it.
> 
> http://www.isgtw.org/feature/cern-lends-hand-origin-life
> 
> "..."The aim of this research group is to create theory and experiments to produce at least one, or several, candidate evolving protocells in the next decade." That is, creating life in a test tube from basic chemical ingredients."-
Interesting article covering the same old ground. Two problems with it. Intelligence is doing the investigation, not chance. Secondly, if they actually produce a form of life, we will never know is that the way it really happened. What is the true probability of chance solving a two in a million problem?

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Thursday, July 14, 2011, 14:56 (4881 days ago) @ David Turell

More biologic complexity in cell research. It seems exosomes, little globules released from cells are not just garbage collectors as first proposed. They contain RNA (!) and can affect other cells at a distance. A whole new area of research has opened up and turns out to be highly complex. I'm not surprised. I predict Life will turn out to be so complex at the current levels which we study, that we will have to conclude that original life was extremely complex also. Otherwise the road from 'now' back to 'then' could not conceivably been traveled.-http://the-scientist.com/2011/07/01/exosome-explosion/

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Thursday, July 14, 2011, 15:05 (4881 days ago) @ David Turell

And a study of the complexity in manufacturing a nervous system, barely understood:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-07-uncover-piece-puzzle-nervous.html

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Friday, July 15, 2011, 02:09 (4881 days ago) @ David Turell

More retinal complexity. New work on how light is translated into electrical current for 'sight':-http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/46479

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Friday, September 02, 2011, 14:53 (4831 days ago) @ David Turell

Cells must have a transport system for passenger molecules destined for various parts of the cell. Fed Ex in biology:-
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-09-railways-cells-built.html

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Saturday, September 03, 2011, 15:38 (4830 days ago) @ David Turell

And now we learn how mitochondria divide in cell division. It is as if all the molecules in a single cell obey an information code specific for that molecule or group of molecules forming a part of the cell.-http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-09-insight-cells-powerhouse.html

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Friday, September 16, 2011, 19:00 (4817 days ago) @ David Turell

This article covers the 'start' and 'stop' mechanisms of the inflammation reaction to injury or infection. To show an example lets use blood clotting. No start and you bleed to death; no stop and you clot to death. With inflammation you can die from overwhelming infection or lack of healing of a wound if there is no 'start'. If there is no 'stop' you can die of autoimmune diseases like Lupus (many organs affected), glomerulonephritis (Kidneys destroyed), Rheumatic fever (heart damage, heart failure and death), etc.-http://www.sott.net/articles/show/235026-Vagus-Nerve-Neurotransmitter-Regulated-Immunity

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Monday, September 19, 2011, 18:02 (4814 days ago) @ David Turell

One of the major complexities of life is protein folding, which has to be exact to make the protein molecule perform its proper function. And the protein strings are often hundreds of amino acids in length. Exzymes, without which there would be no life, often have many thousands of amino acids. Here are two articles describing the solution to a folding problem, i.e., in an AIDS-virus-like retrovirus.-http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-09-gamers-scientists-molecular-retrovirus-enzyme.html-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110918144955.htm-Oak Ridge Natl lab has a new invention to predict folding:-http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-09-unravels-mystery-protein.html

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Thursday, September 29, 2011, 18:03 (4804 days ago) @ David Turell

As different cells are studied for their different functions, it is now realized that in order to study cells the differences must be carefully accounted for:-http://the-scientist.com/2011/09/01/vive-la-difference/-And they all have the same DNA!

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Friday, September 30, 2011, 15:31 (4803 days ago) @ David Turell

How T-cells create immunity is explained in the following article. The mechanism is shown to go back to the arrival of sharks, 400 million years ago. T-cells can make an antibody to any antigen they find. They recognize foreign protein when it appears in the body.-http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-09-humans-sharks-immune-system-feature.html

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Saturday, October 01, 2011, 02:21 (4803 days ago) @ David Turell

Another aspect of complexity is the phenomenon of metamorphosis. How does DNA manage two life forms: larva to butterfly with larva soup as an intermediate stage; four stages of larva, all different, to lobster; tadpole to frog. One theory is that these early forms recapitulate some early evolutionary forms, and may represent hybrids from the Cambrian Explosion! Sign in to read the article. Signing in is free.-http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128312.100-metamorphosis-evolutions-freak-factory.html?full=true&print=true-There is no way Darwin could have imagined this sort of stuff. Evolution occurred, but his theory barely touches the truth.

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Saturday, October 01, 2011, 05:13 (4803 days ago) @ David Turell

Rapid methylation changes in brain DNA in mice with electrostimuation: epigenetics at work:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-09-scientists-fickle-dna-brain.html-The more complex the layers of control in the genome, the less likely chance mutation created the complex layers.

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Monday, October 03, 2011, 19:45 (4800 days ago) @ David Turell

This article discusses how quantum effects may impinge within our biology of life. It is a whole new field opening up, and includes the effectgs on quantum entanglement. Sign up. It is free and worth it:-http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128321.500-quantum-life-the-weirdness-inside-us.html?full=true

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Sunday, October 16, 2011, 17:18 (4787 days ago) @ David Turell

Unravelling carbohydrate biopolymers is an ongoing area of biochemical research. And the question of 3-D structure and function still remains. In most pure protein molecules, they function only if the folding is correct. I would predict it applies to these molecules also:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111011112757.htm

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Monday, December 12, 2011, 17:59 (4730 days ago) @ David Turell

As research delves into the workings of the genome how each individual cell type appears out of the general DNA, and is maintained, is found:


http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-making-copies-at-the-right.html

More and more complexity will be found as research is no where near to completion. and I keep posing the question: how much complexity is needed before the conclusion is reached taht design plays a role?

Life\'s biologic complexity

by David Turell @, Friday, September 09, 2011, 15:26 (4824 days ago) @ David Turell

Migratory birds can't stop for a drink. They burn muscle and organs:-http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-09-migratory-birds-protein-in-flight-source.html

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Monday, October 10, 2016, 00:00 (2967 days ago) @ David Turell

Recent experiments which demonstrated molecular machines made use of automatic actions by the molecules involved: - http://www.wsj.com/articles/nobel-prize-in-chemistry-awarded-to-three-scientists-for-de... - "Such tiny machines, including minuscule motors, blades and switches, can be powered by changes in light, temperature or acidity. - *** - "In one of Dr. Feringa's experiments, antibiotics could be switched on and off remotely by exposure to light, potentially allowing the medicine to only target one particular body part. - *** - "For instance, in 2010, researchers at New York University built tiny DNA walkers capable of shuttling gold particles along a microscopic track. In 2013, chemists at the University of Manchester in the U.K. built a nanorobot capable of stringing together amino acids, mimicking the function of ribosomes, the cellular machines that build proteins. - *** - "In 1983, Dr. Sauvage took the first step toward building microscopic gadgets when he linked together two ring-shaped molecules that could move relative to each other to form a chain, known as a catenane. Dr. Sauvage is professor emeritus at the University of Strasbourg in France. - "Dr. Stoddart, the director of the Center for Chemistry of Integrated Systems at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois, demonstrated a molecular ring in 1991 that could move along a thin molecular axle. 
These simple dumbbell-shaped devices, known as rotaxanes, have become workhorses of the molecular-machines field. Dr. Stoddart and others have used them to bend super-thin gold beams, and as switches in experimental molecular computers - *** - "In 1999, Dr. Feringa built a molecular rotor blade that spun continually in the same direction, becoming the first person to create a true molecular motor. “I could almost not believe it worked,” Dr. Feringa said of his achievement at the time." - Comment: These are all examples of scientists using the automatic reactions of these amazing molecules. This is how cells act automatically . The scientists have no ability to train molecules to do anything. Molecules do what they can do, no more, no less.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Monday, October 10, 2016, 18:03 (2966 days ago) @ David Turell

No reply?

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 14:52 (2965 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: These are all examples of scientists using the automatic reactions of these amazing molecules. This is how cells act automatically. The scientists have no ability to train molecules to do anything. Molecules do what they can do, no more, no less.

Why are you equating molecules with cells? How many thousand molecules are there in a cell? Of course the actions of molecules and also of cells are largely automatic. So are your own actions. Intelligence is only needed when the organism is confronted with something that can NOT be dealt with automatically. That is why scientists test crows, ants, bees, bacteria and even plants – in order to find out whether they are capable of non-automatic reactions. You sometimes accept the positive results of these tests when the organism has a brain, but are adamant that problem-solving is automatic if the organism doesn’t have a brain. Drawing attention to the automatic behaviour of molecules or even of cells has absolutely no bearing on the question of whether single-celled organisms and/or cell communities including human beings (in the context of free will) have the autonomous intelligence to solve problems, master new conditions, take decisions, and possibly even come up with innovations.

(Sorry this reply was delayed, but I ran out of time yesterday. I can’t always keep up with you!)

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 18:47 (2965 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: These are all examples of scientists using the automatic reactions of these amazing molecules. This is how cells act automatically. The scientists have no ability to train molecules to do anything. Molecules do what they can do, no more, no less.

dhw: Why are you equating molecules with cells? How many thousand molecules are there in a cell? Of course the actions of molecules and also of cells are largely automatic......Drawing attention to the automatic behaviour of molecules or even of cells has absolutely no bearing on the question of whether single-celled organisms and/or cell communities including human beings (in the context of free will) have the autonomous intelligence to solve problems, master new conditions, take decisions, and possibly even come up with innovations.

I presented this to show how automatic cells can be because their molecules have marvelous automatic actions. I've also shown that bacteria have more than one way to perform a function, and if one does not work can start to use another. It is then possible, even probable, to conclude that single-celled animals can react autonomously to all stimuli. And they do come up with simple innovation through epigenetic changes, but species do not change in all the studies done so far. Why I presented automatic molecules should be obvious.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 12:16 (2964 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I presented this to show how automatic cells can be because their molecules have marvelous automatic actions. I've also shown that bacteria have more than one way to perform a function, and if one does not work can start to use another. It is then possible, even probable, to conclude that single-celled animals can react autonomously to all stimuli. And they do come up with simple innovation through epigenetic changes, but species do not change in all the studies done so far. Why I presented automatic molecules should be obvious.

Once again let me repeat: nobody knows how speciation occurs. You have your divine theories (preprogramming/dabbling) and I offer an alternative. My alternative depends on the autonomous intelligence of cells/cell communities. Showing the automaticity of molecules and even of cells is irrelevant, though the reason for your presenting it is indeed obvious: you only want to focus on automaticity. I want to focus on examples of problem-solving and decision-making. Bacteria have plenty of ways of solving problems, as illustrated by the important article on lateral gene transfer (many thanks), the potential for which seems unlimited. You have now twice conceded one can conclude that they react autonomously (elsewhere you wrote: “bacteria can solve problems of survivability on their own[/b]”). That is all I ask for: acknowledgement that cells/cell communities do not have to be preprogrammed or divinely dabbled with if (theistic version) your God has provided them with the intelligence to act autonomously.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 14:49 (2964 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Bacteria have plenty of ways of solving problems, as illustrated by the important article on lateral gene transfer (many thanks), the potential for which seems unlimited. You have now twice conceded one can conclude that they react autonomously (elsewhere you wrote: “bacteria can solve problems of survivability on their own[/b]”). That is all I ask for: acknowledgement that cells/cell communities do not have to be preprogrammed or divinely dabbled with if (theistic version) your God has provided them with the intelligence to act autonomously.

I do agree with you that the abilities bacteria have in HGT and in the presence of alternative metabolic pathways many ways to respond to stimuli and environmental changes. I don't see how that implies they have innate intelligence. It may look that way to you but to me it can all be automatic.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Thursday, October 13, 2016, 12:40 (2963 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Bacteria have plenty of ways of solving problems, as illustrated by the important article on lateral gene transfer (many thanks), the potential for which seems unlimited. You have now twice conceded one can conclude that they react autonomously (elsewhere you wrote: “bacteria can solve problems of survivability on their own[/b]”). That is all I ask for: acknowledgement that cells/cell communities do not have to be preprogrammed or divinely dabbled with if (theistic version) your God has provided them with the intelligence to act autonomously.

DAVID: I do agree with you that the abilities bacteria have in HGT and in the presence of alternative metabolic pathways many ways to respond to stimuli and environmental changes. I don't see how that implies they have innate intelligence. It may look that way to you but to me it can all be automatic.

I am happy to concede that it “can be” automatic. What I don’t like is your constant insistence that it IS automatic. Your posts are riddled with this dogmatic assertion. If behaviour looks intelligent, and if scientists do tests and conclude that it is intelligent, I am prepared to believe that at the very least it might be intelligent.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Friday, October 14, 2016, 01:47 (2963 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: I am happy to concede that it “can be” automatic. What I don’t like is your constant insistence that it IS automatic. Your posts are riddled with this dogmatic assertion. If behaviour looks intelligent, and if scientists do tests and conclude that it is intelligent, I am prepared to believe that at the very least it might be intelligent.

That they conclude cells are intelligent is not proof of intelligence. It is only opinion and I have mine.

Life's biologic complexity: controlling zinc levels:

by David Turell @, Thursday, November 03, 2016, 18:20 (2942 days ago) @ David Turell

Zinc is a very important trace metal in human metabolism:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/11/161103124350.htm

"Zinc is essential for wound healing, for vision, for DNA creation, for our senses of taste and smell, even for sexual health. But despite its importance, scientists have never fully understood the mechanism that moves the mineral through the body -- until now. [I might add very important for immunity also.]

" But despite its importance, scientists have never fully understood the mechanism that moves the mineral through the body -- until now.

"Researchers have, for the first time, created detailed blueprints of the molecular moving vans that ferry this important mineral everywhere it's needed through the blood. The finding gives scientists new insights into this important process -- and a deeper understanding of the critical role it plays in maintaining good health.

***

"Zinc is carried through the body by a protein known as serum albumin. Scientists had expected there would be a primary binding site where serum albumin binds with zinc, and the UVA researchers proved the location of that site. But the team, led by UVA's Wladek Minor, PhD, also found several more secondary binding sites, revealing a more complex interaction than anticipated. "It's different than it was predicted before," said researcher Katarzyna B. Handing, PhD.

***

"With the finding, scientists have a better grasp of how the body maintains the delicate balances necessary for good health, a state known as homeostasis. It's a complex dance made all the more complicated by the fact that serum albumin also transports many other things, such as hormones and fatty acids. "Homeostasis is extremely important, and it can be affected by the level of zinc you are taking into your body. But it can be also affected by other elements," Handing said. "If you have an elevated level of fatty acids, for example as a result of diabetes or obesity, the zinc homeostasis can be disturbed."

"This is important because the body needs zinc, but too much zinc is toxic. So the body must make it available where it is needed, but, at the same time, it must prevent excessive buildup. If something goes wrong with the zinc regulation process, that can have a ripple effect, throwing the body's delicate balances out of whack and potentially having serious effects on health."

Comment: Another fine example of feedback loop controls. Zinc can be poisonous if too much is present. There are other micro-nutrients. Selenium is also necessary and poisonous if in too large an amount. How did evolution settle all these careful limits? Natural selection would kill if not correct from the beginning. Saltation is the only answer.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Monday, November 28, 2016, 17:50 (2917 days ago) @ David Turell

Now shown in Staph aureus in the nose, with low oxygen using nitrogen instead:

http://phys.org/news/2016-11-staph-nitric-oxide-enzyme-colonize.html

"Like many bacteria, Staphylococcus aureus makes the enzyme nitric oxide synthase. In other living things that manufacture nitric oxide, the simple molecule controls many complex biological responses. In people, for example, it mediates blood pressure, nerve signals and sexual arousal.

***

"Kinkel explained that S. aureus typically grows into a thick group or biofilm. If the bacteria pack densely into a confined location, eventually most of the available oxygen will be consumed.

"This situation can arise when staph tries to take hold and multiply inside the nose. Mucus in the nose also limits the diffusion of oxygen.

"As oxygen becomes scarce, Kinkel said, the small amount of nitric oxide produced by the bacteria further restricts aerobic respiration in an effort to reduce oxygen use. This leads to the bacteria transitioning to nitrate consumption, or microaerobic respiration, to maintain energy in the low-oxygen environment.

"The researchers outlined the biochemical activities stemming from nitric oxide synthase production. These regulate the transport of electrons in the pathogen's cell membrane, and thereby maintain energy from concentration gradients across the membrane.

"'We believe that this elegant mechanism is likely to represent the original, primordial function of enzymatic nitric oxide production in nature," Fang said. The essential bacterial mechanism appears to be evolutionarily conserved in some types of cell receptor signaling in mammals.

"Also, the researchers said, in view of the many pathogenic and environmental bacteria that produce the enzyme nitric oxide synthase, and the ubiquity of low-oxygen environments in the natural world, this mechanism is likely to be a widespread bacterial response to limited oxygen."

Comment: A clear example that bacteria have many alternate pathways for metabolism. A simple recognition that oxygen availability is very low triggers the switch. No thought involved.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 11:31 (2916 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID's Comment: A clear example that bacteria have many alternate pathways for metabolism. A simple recognition that oxygen availability is very low triggers the switch. No thought involved.

I am always fascinated by the concept of the microcosm within the macrocosm, and it fits so perfectly into your own theistic scheme of things that I am always surprised at your refusal even to consider it. Supposing your God really exists, as the ultimate macrocosm of consciousness. And supposing he really did imbue inorganic matter with life. Can you not conceive of each organism itself, from humans down to bacteria, being a microcosmic reflection of his consciousness? And one step further into the microcosmic world – of each multicellular creature itself being a macrocosm consisting of microcosms (i.e. cell communities) that are also reflections of his consciousness? We go about our daily business, and so do they. I am not saying that many of their functions are not automatic. So are ours. But just as we take decisions to deal with new situations, so perhaps do they. Not with the same self-awareness as us – they are even more limited in their scope than we are – but in just the same way as other social organisms (the ants being my favourite example) combine their limited intelligences to create the most amazing structures and processes. I find it quite heartwarming to think of all these communities of tiny beings hard at work inside me to help me function. And I actually find it easier to believe than the idea that they are all machines preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago to choose the right “pathway” for each situation or, just as bizarre, that your God has to keep intervening to show them the way. And we should not forget that much of the time, they don’t actually choose the right “pathway” – hence extinctions, not to mention doctors and undertakers!

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 19:28 (2916 days ago) @ dhw

dhw:I am not saying that many of their functions are not automatic. So are ours. But just as we take decisions to deal with new situations, so perhaps do they.

The difference between us is that I have pointed out that the alternate pathways exist and can be switched on and off depending on availability of nutrients , oxygen, etc. No thought necessary, just an automatic chemical switch.

dhw: And I actually find it easier to believe than the idea that they are all machines preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago to choose the right “pathway” for each situation or, just as bizarre, that your God has to keep intervening to show them the way. And we should not forget that much of the time, they don’t actually choose the right “pathway” – hence extinctions, not to mention doctors and undertakers!

To remind you the current accepted theory is most extinctions are bad luck, not bad decision making.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Wednesday, November 30, 2016, 12:18 (2915 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: And I actually find it easier to believe than the idea that they are all machines preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago to choose the right “pathway” for each situation or, just as bizarre, that your God has to keep intervening to show them the way. And we should not forget that much of the time, they don’t actually choose the right “pathway” – hence extinctions, not to mention doctors and undertakers!

DAVID: To remind you the current accepted theory is most extinctions are bad luck, not bad decision making.

I don’t have a problem with the bad luck theory, since it fits in perfectly with my hypothesis. Last time we had this discussion, you tied yourself in knots trying to explain how the course of evolution was determined by bad luck although God had complete control, which eventually you reduced to a maybe. Do you really want to put yourself through the same contortions again?

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 30, 2016, 15:33 (2915 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: And I actually find it easier to believe than the idea that they are all machines preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago to choose the right “pathway” for each situation or, just as bizarre, that your God has to keep intervening to show them the way. And we should not forget that much of the time, they don’t actually choose the right “pathway” – hence extinctions, not to mention doctors and undertakers!

DAVID: To remind you the current accepted theory is most extinctions are bad luck, not bad decision making.

dhw: I don’t have a problem with the bad luck theory, since it fits in perfectly with my hypothesis. Last time we had this discussion, you tied yourself in knots trying to explain how the course of evolution was determined by bad luck although God had complete control, which eventually you reduced to a maybe. Do you really want to put yourself through the same contortions again?

It was your 'choosing right pathway' comment that set me off. Glad you remembered 'luck' was the proper theory. And God may have arranged for the extinctions.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Thursday, December 01, 2016, 13:08 (2914 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: And I actually find it easier to believe than the idea that they are all machines preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago to choose the right “pathway” for each situation or, just as bizarre, that your God has to keep intervening to show them the way. And we should not forget that much of the time, they don’t actually choose the right “pathway” – hence extinctions, not to mention doctors and undertakers!

DAVID: To remind you the current accepted theory is most extinctions are bad luck, not bad decision making.

dhw: I don’t have a problem with the bad luck theory, since it fits in perfectly with my hypothesis. Last time we had this discussion, you tied yourself in knots trying to explain how the course of evolution was determined by bad luck although God had complete control, which eventually you reduced to a maybe. Do you really want to put yourself through the same contortions again?

DAVID: It was your 'choosing right pathway' comment that set me off. Glad you remembered 'luck' was the proper theory. And God may have arranged for the extinctions.

Bad luck fits in with my hypothetical free-for-all, which could have been engendered by your God giving organisms the means to work out their own “salvation”. But if God may have arranged for the extinctions, they were NOT bad luck, which you now say is the “proper” theory, so you are back to tying yourself in knots.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 01, 2016, 19:03 (2914 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: It was your 'choosing right pathway' comment that set me off. Glad you remembered 'luck' was the proper theory. And God may have arranged for the extinctions.

dhw: Bad luck fits in with my hypothetical free-for-all, which could have been engendered by your God giving organisms the means to work out their own “salvation”. But if God may have arranged for the extinctions, they were NOT bad luck, which you now say is the “proper” theory, so you are back to tying yourself in knots.

I'm not in knots. You are assuming my statement that God may have acted on the environment to cause extinction is fact. It is not. Animals are fine until the extinction event which looks like bad luck, and may or may not be God's action. Your hypothesis is shear speculation, which does not negate my approach.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Friday, December 02, 2016, 10:32 (2913 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Bad luck fits in with my hypothetical free-for-all, which could have been engendered by your God giving organisms the means to work out their own “salvation”. But if God may have arranged for the extinctions, they were NOT bad luck, which you now say is the “proper” theory, so you are back to tying yourself in knots.

DAVID: I'm not in knots. You are assuming my statement that God may have acted on the environment to cause extinction is fact. It is not. Animals are fine until the extinction event which looks like bad luck, and may or may not be God's action.

There are no FACTS in this context! Nothing but hypotheses. But one moment you tell us that the “proper” theory is that extinctions were bad luck, and the next you say God may have planned them. We are going over the same ground as we did a few weeks ago. Two possibilities: 1) what perishes and what survives is a matter of luck, in which case God cannot be said to have had what you earlier called “tight control” of evolution. 2) If God had “tight control” of evolution, he must have planned the extinctions, so why do you keep reminding me that the “proper theory” is bad luck? Once again, the bad luck theory fits in perfectly with the free-for-all theory.

DAVID: (under ”balance of nature”) Define free-for-all.

Each species lives or dies by its own autonomous ability to cope with the environment. If your God preprogrammed or personally dabbled speciation and organized the environmental changes, he would have known which organisms would survive and which would not, so he preprogrammed or dabbled the inadequacies. If he did not know, then you are back to the luck theory, which does not support the concept of a “careful plan”.

DAVID: Remember all early species have been replaced by now more advanced species until we arrived. Not a free-for-all but a cAreful plan. Just as reasonable.

All early species have not been replaced by more advanced species. Bacteria are still with us. And what makes you think that the duckbilled platypus is more advanced than the tyrannosaurus? What is your criterion for the term “advanced”? Yes, uniquely self-conscious humans are here. And maybe they are the result of a divine dabble. However, I’m surprised you still cannot see that if the extinction of 99% of all species may have been bad luck (the “proper theory”), evolution could not have been carefully planned.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 03, 2016, 00:28 (2913 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Two possibilities: 1) what perishes and what survives is a matter of luck, in which case God cannot be said to have had what you earlier called “tight control” of evolution. 2) If God had “tight control” of evolution, he must have planned the extinctions, so why do you keep reminding me that the “proper theory” is bad luck? Once again, the bad luck theory fits in perfectly with the free-for-all theory.

I am not using the word 'luck' as you are. Raup's bad luck concept viewed extinctions as the cause of the massive loss of species, not their fault as they were doing fine until the asteroid hit. This approach does not look at species competition as the cause for the disappearance of species, but sudden changes in environment they cannot prepare for in time to survive. You sort of state this below:

dhw: Each species lives or dies by its own autonomous ability to cope with the environment. If your God preprogrammed or personally dabbled speciation and organized the environmental changes, he would have known which organisms would survive and which would not, so he preprogrammed or dabbled the inadequacies. If he did not know, then you are back to the luck theory, which does not support the concept of a “careful plan”.

That paragraph makes no sense to me in the way I view 'luck'. God is in total control. It is the organism who is 'unlucky', not prepared for what God throws at him. God knows exactly what is happening at all times. There were six major extinctions, several with up to 90% loss of species. Each time afterward evolution resumed with new forms, think dinosaurs to us.


DAVID: Remember all early species have been replaced by now more advanced species until we arrived. Not a free-for-all but a careful plan. Just as reasonable.

dhw: All early species have not been replaced by more advanced species. Bacteria are still with us. And what makes you think that the duckbilled platypus is more advanced than the tyrannosaurus? What is your criterion for the term “advanced”? Yes, uniquely self-conscious humans are here.

You are right about bacteria. Simple organisms are more adaptable than more complex organisms to environmental change. Bacteria have the capacity to adapt to any environment; extremophiles show that. But the platypus is more complex than the dinos and was on the way to us, and the dinos weren't.

dhw: And maybe they are the result of a divine dabble. However, I’m surprised you still cannot see that if the extinction of 99% of all species may have been bad luck (the “proper theory”), evolution could not have been carefully planned.

Perhaps you understand my interpretation of Raup now. God guided evolution and extinctions were one of His methods of control. I'm using Raup for my conclusions. I don't know his religious felings if any.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Saturday, December 03, 2016, 13:33 (2912 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Two possibilities: 1) what perishes and what survives is a matter of luck, in which case God cannot be said to have had what you earlier called “tight control” of evolution. 2) If God had “tight control” of evolution, he must have planned the extinctions, so why do you keep reminding me that the “proper theory” is bad luck? Once again, the bad luck theory fits in perfectly with the free-for-all theory.

DAVID: I am not using the word 'luck' as you are. Raup's bad luck concept viewed extinctions as the cause of the massive loss of species, not their fault as they were doing fine until the asteroid hit. This approach does not look at species competition as the cause for the disappearance of species, but sudden changes in environment they cannot prepare for in time to survive.

When we say an event is bad luck, of course we mean it is not the victim’s fault! Yes, we are looking at sudden changes in the environment, and the question is whether your God planned them or not. If he did, it was the victims’ bad luck that he deliberately created them in such a way that they would not survive (unless, of course, he didn’t know what he was doing – which scarcely fits in with the careful planning and total control you keep insisting on):

DAVID: God is in total control. [And later:] God knows exactly what is happening at all times.

If God is in TOTAL control, then please stop saying he may or may not have been responsible for the catastrophes that caused mass extinctions. He can only be in TOTAL control if he controls the changes in the environment.

DAVID: It is the organism who is 'unlucky', not prepared for what God throws at him.

Precisely. And since, according to you, only God is capable of creating the innovations that have led to speciation, God is responsible for making the organisms incapable of withstanding what he now apparently quite deliberately throws at them. For some reason which has never been clear to me, you object to this reasoning.

dhw: I’m surprised you still cannot see that if the extinction of 99% of all species may have been bad luck (the “proper theory”), evolution could not have been carefully planned.
DAVID: Perhaps you understand my interpretation of Raup now. God guided evolution and extinctions were one of His methods of control.

I understand now that you have finally decided that your God was responsible for Chixculub and all the other natural catastrophes and/or other major environmental changes, and you have finally decided that your God deliberately programmed or dabbled 99% of species in such a way that they would be incapable of withstanding what he threw at them, because – presumably – he had to create them and then get rid of them in order to produce humans. I can think of a much simpler explanation for the course of evolution!

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 03, 2016, 14:31 (2912 days ago) @ dhw


dhw; When we say an event is bad luck, of course we mean it is not the victim’s fault! Yes, we are looking at sudden changes in the environment, and the question is whether your God planned them or not. If he did, it was the victims’ bad luck that he deliberately created them in such a way that they would not survive (unless, of course, he didn’t know what he was doing

But He did know. The Dinos couldn't survive the asteroid and the resultant volcanic eruptions in Siberia, but the little mammals did and we are here. It appears God knew exactly how to handle it, but I admit I'm not sure God orchestrated each environmental event. I have some regions of my theories where this is the case.


DAVID: It is the organism who is 'unlucky', not prepared for what God throws at him.

dhw: Precisely. And since, according to you, only God is capable of creating the innovations that have led to speciation, God is responsible for making the organisms incapable of withstanding what he now apparently quite deliberately throws at them. For some reason which has never been clear to me, you object to this reasoning.

Explained See above

DAVID: Perhaps you understand my interpretation of Raup now. God guided evolution and extinctions were one of His methods of control.

dhw: I understand now that you have finally decided that your God was responsible for Chixculub and all the other natural catastrophes and/or other major environmental changes, and you have finally decided that your God deliberately programmed or dabbled 99% of species in such a way that they would be incapable of withstanding what he threw at them, because – presumably – he had to create them and then get rid of them in order to produce humans. I can think of a much simpler explanation for the course of evolution!

And what is that, which fits the facts of the history of evolution?

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Sunday, December 04, 2016, 12:12 (2911 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I admit I'm not sure God orchestrated each environmental event. I have some regions of my theories where this is the case.

It is those regions of uncertainty that result in you having to tie yourself in knots to justify your theories. (See my final paragraph below)

dhw: And since, according to you, only God is capable of creating the innovations that have led to speciation, God is responsible for making the organisms incapable of withstanding what he now apparently quite deliberately throws at them. For some reason which has never been clear to me, you object to this reasoning.
DAVID: Explained. See above

The fact that you are not sure about some regions of your theories does not explain why you object to my reasoning.

DAVID: Perhaps you understand my interpretation of Raup now. God guided evolution and extinctions were one of His methods of control.
dhw: I understand now that you have finally decided that your God was responsible for Chixculub and all the other natural catastrophes and/or other major environmental changes, and you have finally decided that your God deliberately programmed or dabbled 99% of species in such a way that they would be incapable of withstanding what he threw at them, because – presumably – he had to create them and then get rid of them in order to produce humans. I can think of a much simpler explanation for the course of evolution!
DAVID: And what is that, which fits the facts of the history of evolution?

Thank you for accepting my summary of your current beliefs. You already know my explanation, but here yet again is the theistic version (the atheistic version, of course, substitutes chance for God as the prime cause). From the outset your God set up a system of randomly changing environments (just as humans can set up systems that produce random numbers). He endowed cells/cell communities with sentience and intelligence, whereby some would be able to cope with change by adapting, others would be able to exploit it by inventing new means of coping with it, but others would be unable to do either and would perish. This has resulted in the history of life as we know it: an ever changing spectacle of comings and goings, including mass extinctions, of adaptations, and of innovations (leading to speciation). The essence of this spectacle is unpredictability, but your God always had the option to intervene, and it is possible that he did so in the case of humans. The unpredictability of a self-conscious being would certainly enhance the spectacle.

With this scenario, there is no need to explain why the weaverbird’s nest is essential to the existence of humans, why God had to specially design and then deliberately destroy 99% of species in order to produce humans, or how God’s “total control” can be reconciled with the possibility that he does not control the environment. So please tell me what aspect of my hypothesis does NOT fit the facts of the history of evolution.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Sunday, December 04, 2016, 17:33 (2911 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: And since, according to you, only God is capable of creating the innovations that have led to speciation, God is responsible for making the organisms incapable of withstanding what he now apparently quite deliberately throws at them. For some reason which has never been clear to me, you object to this reasoning.
The fact that you are not sure about some regions of your theories does not explain why you object to my reasoning.

I look at God's purpose behind all of the events, You never look at purpose. When God wants to get rid of a family of species, of course He can bring up something they cannot handle, and that is what happened with the dinos. His purpose is humans. Why He didn't just start at the Garden of Eden, I cannot explain, but He used evolution.


dhw: Thank you for accepting my summary of your current beliefs. You already know my explanation, but here yet again is the theistic version (the atheistic version, of course, substitutes chance for God as the prime cause). From the outset your God set up a system of randomly changing environments (just as humans can set up systems that produce random numbers). He endowed cells/cell communities with sentience and intelligence, whereby some would be able to cope with change by adapting, others would be able to exploit it by inventing new means of coping with it, but others would be unable to do either and would perish. This has resulted in the history of life as we know it: an ever changing spectacle of comings and goings, including mass extinctions, of adaptations, and of innovations (leading to speciation). The essence of this spectacle is unpredictability, but your God always had the option to intervene, and it is possible that he did so in the case of humans. The unpredictability of a self-conscious being would certainly enhance the spectacle.

As usual you avoid the idea that God has a purpose. Thus a helter-skelter evolutionary process in your view. His purpose was to produce complexity in organisms which I have shown and eventually humans, the most complex.


dhw: With this scenario, there is no need to explain why the weaverbird’s nest is essential to the existence of humans, why God had to specially design and then deliberately destroy 99% of species in order to produce humans, or how God’s “total control” can be reconciled with the possibility that he does not control the environment. So please tell me what aspect of my hypothesis does NOT fit the facts of the history of evolution.

Just as I don't accept unicellular intelligence, you don't accept the importance of the balance of nature. Same double standard by your principles. As for destroying species no longer needed, the Earth has just so much room for living matter. Maaks way for new advances.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Monday, December 05, 2016, 13:58 (2910 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: The fact that you are not sure about some regions of your theories does not explain why you object to my reasoning.
DAVID: I look at God's purpose behind all of the events. You never look at purpose. When God wants to get rid of a family of species, of course He can bring up something they cannot handle, and that is what happened with the dinos. His purpose is humans. Why He didn't just start at the Garden of Eden, I cannot explain, but He used evolution.

You believe that God’s purpose was humans, but you can’t explain why he had first to design and then to destroy 99% of all species to get there, and then you wonder why I challenge your view of the history of evolution! As for purpose, I don’t know how often I have to repeat my hypothesis that if God exists, his purpose could be a spectacle. You have even quoted me!
Dhw: This has resulted in the history of life as we know it: an ever changing spectacle of comings and goings, including mass extinctions, of adaptations, and of innovations (leading to speciation). The essence of this spectacle is unpredictability, but your God always had the option to intervene, and it is possible that he did so in the case of humans. The unpredictability of a self-conscious being would certainly enhance the spectacle.

DAVID: As usual you avoid the idea that God has a purpose. Thus a helter-skelter evolutionary process in your view. His purpose was to produce complexity in organisms which I have shown and eventually humans, the most complex.

I’m afraid your definitive view of God’s purpose does not invalidate my hypothetical view. You challenged me to explain how my hypothesis covered all aspects of the history of evolution. I did so, and then concluded:
dhw: With this scenario, there is no need to explain why the weaverbird’s nest is essential to the existence of humans, why God had to specially design and then deliberately destroy 99% of species in order to produce humans, or how God’s “total control” can be reconciled with the possibility that he does not control the environment. So please tell me what aspect of my hypothesis does NOT fit the facts of the history of evolution.

DAVID: Just as I don't accept unicellular intelligence, you don't accept the importance of the balance of nature. Same double standard by your principles. As for destroying species no longer needed, the Earth has just so much room for living matter. Makes way for new advances.

We have agreed that the balance of nature changes in accordance with what conditions suit what species. It has no meaning other than life goes on, with or without humans. I agree that room is limited – hence natural selection and, as conditions change, an ever shifting balance. What double standards? You demand absolute proof for my hypothesis (impossible) and then accuse me of demanding absolute proof for yours (impossible). You can’t explain why God didn’t start with humans. My hypothesis offers an explanation. So once more: please tell me what aspect of my hypothesis does NOT fit the facts of the history of evolution.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Monday, December 05, 2016, 15:28 (2910 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Just as I don't accept unicellular intelligence, you don't accept the importance of the balance of nature. Same double standard by your principles. As for destroying species no longer needed, the Earth has just so much room for living matter. Makes way for new advances.

dhw: We have agreed that the balance of nature changes in accordance with what conditions suit what species. It has no meaning other than life goes on, with or without humans. I agree that room is limited – hence natural selection and, as conditions change, an ever shifting balance. What double standards? You demand absolute proof for my hypothesis (impossible) and then accuse me of demanding absolute proof for yours (impossible). You can’t explain why God didn’t start with humans. My hypothesis offers an explanation. So once more: please tell me what aspect of my hypothesis does NOT fit the facts of the history of evolution.

You are correct. Your hypothesis fits the history. What I have done is to keep attacking your basic assumptions about cellular intelligence, based on a few hyperbolic statements by a few scientists, and your apparent lack of recognition of the need for precise planning in advance for the complexity I've demonstrated. Because it fits the history by no means shows it is anywhere near a correct possibility.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Tuesday, December 06, 2016, 10:15 (2909 days ago) @ David Turell

Dhw: …You can’t explain why God didn’t start with humans. My hypothesis offers an explanation. So once more: please tell me what aspect of my hypothesis does NOT fit the facts of the history of evolution.

DAVID: You are correct. Your hypothesis fits the history. What I have done is to keep attacking your basic assumptions about cellular intelligence, based on a few hyperbolic statements by a few scientists, and your apparent lack of recognition of the need for precise planning in advance for the complexity I've demonstrated. Because it fits the history by no means shows it is anywhere near a correct possibility.

Perhaps I’d better repeat some of the areas my hypothesis covers, in contrast to your own: “With this scenario, there is no need to explain why the weaverbird’s nest is essential to the existence of humans, why God had to specially design and then deliberately destroy 99% of species in order to produce humans, or how God’s “total control” can be reconciled with the possibility that he does not control the environment.” These are huge gaps in your reasoning, which are covered by my own. I don’t have an axe to grind. I am looking for an explanation that fills the gaps. You are quite right to cast doubt on the question of just how inventive cellular intelligence might be. We don’t know. That is why it is NOT a basic assumption, but a hypothesis, just like divine preprogramming and/or dabbling of all innovations and natural wonders. (I wonder how many scientists support that hypothesis!) The claim that the various experts in the field are guilty of “hyperbolic” statements is pure prejudice. You don’t know. It’s 50/50.

For some reason you are always desperate to stress “planning in advance”, but as I keep pointing out, organisms react to the environment. The same applies both to adaptation and to innovation: until the environment demands or is suitable for change, the adaptation or invention cannot take place. We KNOW that organisms can change their genome in order to adapt. That is not advance planning, it is a reaction. What we don’t know is whether they can make the more complex changes involved in innovation. But it is a possibility that they can. And if they can, it explains the whole history of evolution with no gaps. You are quite correct: that does not mean it is right. But an explanation that “fits the history” merits at least as much serious consideration as one that doesn’t.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 06, 2016, 16:24 (2909 days ago) @ dhw

Dhw: …You can’t explain why God didn’t start with humans. My hypothesis offers an explanation. So once more: please tell me what aspect of my hypothesis does NOT fit the facts of the history of evolution.

DAVID: You are correct. Your hypothesis fits the history. What I have done is to keep attacking your basic assumptions about cellular intelligence, based on a few hyperbolic statements by a few scientists, and your apparent lack of recognition of the need for precise planning in advance for the complexity I've demonstrated. Because it fits the history by no means shows it is anywhere near a correct possibility.

dhw: You are quite right to cast doubt on the question of just how inventive cellular intelligence might be. We don’t know. That is why it is NOT a basic assumption, but a hypothesis, .... For some reason you are always desperate to stress “planning in advance”, but as I keep pointing out, organisms react to the environment. The same applies both to adaptation and to innovation: until the environment demands or is suitable for change, the adaptation or invention cannot take place. We KNOW that organisms can change their genome in order to adapt. That is not advance planning, it is a reaction. What we don’t know is whether they can make the more complex changes involved in innovation. But it is a possibility that they can.

This is a basic point of mine you keep skipping: "your apparent lack of recognition of the need for precise planning in advance for the complexity I've demonstrated.' Because it fits the history by no means shows it is anywhere near a correct possibility. You almost never comment on my point about the whale series and the enormous physiologic alterations and phenotypical changes that are required for each next step in the eight or nine known. Each biologic gap is huge with no forms showing a tiny alteration, which cellular intelligence might be capable of creating. In evolution all we see is major gaps, which is why Gould and Eldridge invented their hypothesis of punc-enq. Your approach is entirely wishful thinking.

dhw:But an explanation that “fits the history” merits at least as much serious consideration as one that doesn’t.

When it doesn't recognize the true complexity of the gaps it is not a serious contender for logic.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 13:02 (2908 days ago) @ David Turell

As we are conducting the same argument on three different threads, I am putting them together.

Dhw: …You can’t explain why God didn’t start with humans. My hypothesis offers an explanation.
DAVID: You are correct. Your hypothesis fits the history. What I have done is to keep attacking your basic assumptions about cellular intelligence
dhw: You are quite right to cast doubt on the question of just how inventive cellular intelligence might be. We don’t know. That is why it is NOT a basic assumption, but a hypothesis....
DAVID: This is a basic point of mine you keep skipping: "your apparent lack of recognition of the need for precise planning in advance for the complexity I've demonstrated.'

I have not skipped it. I have answered it: “The same applies both to adaptation and to innovation: until the environment demands or is suitable for change, the adaptation or invention cannot take place. We KNOW that organisms can change their genome in order to adapt. That is not advance planning, it is a reaction. What we don’t know is whether they can make the more complex changes involved in innovation. But it is a possibility that they can.”

DAVID: You almost never comment on my point about the whale series and the enormous physiologic alterations and phenotypical changes that are required for each next step in the eight or nine known. And: Whales are not improvement…A drive to complexity is what that signals.

Every new species (broad sense) requires enormous physiologic, phenotypical changes. We can only speculate about reasons for these changes. Maybe pre-whales found that food was more plentiful in the water than on the land. Maybe later changes improved locomotion and breathing and steering. I find it hard to believe that they were for no reason other than for God to make pre-whales more complex so that eventually humans could have special brains.

DAVID: Each biologic gap is huge with no forms showing a tiny alteration, which cellular intelligence might be capable of creating. In evolution all we see is major gaps, which is why Gould and Eldridge invented their hypothesis of punc-enq. Your approach is entirely wishful thinking.

That is how I believe common descent works: major changes occur in existing organisms as they learn to cope with - or improve their means of coping with - changing environments. I accept saltation (nature makes jumps), punctuated equilibrium, and the enormous complexities involved, and I offer the hypothesis that all these changes may be the products of an autonomous inventive intelligence, itself perhaps invented by your God. There is no wishful thinking. I am simply looking for a possible explanation of the evolutionary process that will close the huge gaps in the chance theory and in your own.

dhw: …an explanation that “fits the history” merits at least as much serious consideration as one that doesn’t.
DAVID: When it doesn't recognize the true complexity of the gaps it is not a serious contender for logic.

It is you who insist that I do not recognize the complexity, whereas I keep emphasizing that the complexity is a major reason for my rejecting atheism. However, this seems to be your best method of diverting attention away from the massive inconsistencies in your own account of how evolution works. Once more: NOBODY knows how speciation took place, and NOBODY knows how intelligent cells/cell communities are. That is why my hypothesis is only a hypothesis! But I would suggest that a hypothesis which fits the history is every bit as “serious a contender for logic” as one that doesn’t.

dhw:What I pooh-pooh is your assumption that intelligence is impossible without a brain. The behaviour of cells suggests that this may not be true. 50/50.
DAVID: My 50/50 which you are subverting is simply the possibilities of a view from outside the cell. Once inside it is obvious automaticity is what is going on.

I pointed out that we cannot even get inside the thoughtful, decision-making mind of humans, and even you give odds of 50/50 for cells because it is impossible to get “inside”, so please don’t claim now that you CAN get inside and the obvious answer is 100% automaticity. We judge intelligence by watching behaviour, not by watching molecules.

DAVID: I have separate theories, not one all-inclusive theory to cover everything which you always seem try to do. I see no need for that all-inconclusiveness. In each area of thought I follow the known research findings.
dhw: If your separate theories contradict one another (see the massive gaps in your interpretation of evolutionary history), I think it is only right to question them.
DAVID: I start with the observation above that first life had to have information to run on. Isn't DNA an intricate code? That is information which cannot develop by chance on a rocky planet.

A very good argument concerning the origin of life and the evolutionary mechanism. But you have a separate theory about how evolution has proceeded, and you claim that in each area of thought your theories follow “the known research findings”. I have yet to hear of known research findings that support your theory of a 3.8-billion-year computer programme, divine dabbling etc, etc.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 18:36 (2908 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Wednesday, December 07, 2016, 18:44


dhw:I have not skipped it. I have answered it: “The same applies both to adaptation and to innovation: until the environment demands or is suitable for change, the adaptation or invention cannot take place.

This is the nubbin of our difference in thought. There is no evidence for the Darwin thesis that there is a competition with other species or with environmental conditions. Extinctions are just that. The species cannot adapt, but with minor changes then can adapt. But that does not mean it is a road to new species. Oxygen may have allowed the Cambrian explosion, but didn't demand the appearance of those very complex animals out of nothing that lived prweviously. Punc Eq requires that species are isolated and in isolation decide to change, nothing more. It is thin specious thinking, an excuse for change that doesn't hold water.

dhw: We KNOW that organisms can change their genome in order to adapt. That is not advance planning, it is a reaction. What we don’t know is whether they can make the more complex changes involved in innovation. But it is a possibility that they can

Yes it is a possibility, but large changes, as in speciation require complex planning for the changes to occur in a coordinated fashion


DAVID: You almost never comment on my point about the whale series and the enormous physiologic alterations and phenotypical changes that are required for each next step in the eight or nine known. And: Whales are not improvement…A drive to complexity is what that signals.

dhw: Every new species (broad sense) requires enormous physiologic, phenotypical changes. We can only speculate about reasons for these changes. Maybe pre-whales found that food was more plentiful in the water than on the land.

Very logical to have land animals just become aquatic instead of migrating as most animals do all the time to follow the food. Just involving the huge requirements for physiological changes to become aquatic defies logic. Why did God allow it? He created a evolutionary plan with a drive for complexity.

dhw: Maybe later changes improved locomotion and breathing and steering. I find it hard to believe that they were for no reason other than for God to make pre-whales more complex so that eventually humans could have special brains.

That is your conflation. Humans are the current complex endpoint of evolution, but life is made up of many evolutionary branches of a balance of nature in evolution so life has energy to proceed. Whales are one branch in their own niche as top predators.

dhw: It is you who insist that I do not recognize the complexity, whereas I keep emphasizing that the complexity is a major reason for my rejecting atheism. ... Once more: NOBODY knows how speciation took place, and NOBODY knows how intelligent cells/cell communities are.

It is obvious that the gaps in complexity require intense planning, and cell communities in human bodes are very intelligent in what they do automatically, no more.

dhw> We judge intelligence by watching behaviour, not by watching molecules.

If those molecules automatically follow intelligent interaction it can all be planned activity.

DAVID: I start with the observation above that first life had to have information to run on. Isn't DNA an intricate code? That is information which cannot develop by chance on a rocky planet.

dhw: A very good argument concerning the origin of life and the evolutionary mechanism. But you have a separate theory about how evolution has proceeded, and you claim that in each area of thought your theories follow “the known research findings”. I have yet to hear of known research findings that support your theory of a 3.8-billion-year computer programme, divine dabbling etc, etc.

It is not separate. Initial intelligent information started life and conducted the process of evolution. All one plan. Origin of life and origin of species is all one and the same mechanism. Solves the gap problem. I am allowed to leap to my theories, just as you are. I've never said the 3.8 billion year program is scientifically proven. What we know strongly suggests it.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Thursday, December 08, 2016, 10:45 (2907 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: …There is no evidence for the Darwin thesis that there is a competition with other species or with environmental conditions. Extinctions are just that. The species cannot adapt, but with minor changes then can adapt. But that does not mean it is a road to new species.

I don't know why you've suddenly switched from complexity to competition! Anyway, I don't follow your reasoning. You tell us how in New Zealand the introduction of non-native species has caused havoc to native species. No competition? How can extinctions be caused by environmental conditions, but there's no evidence for “competition” with environmental conditions? And I've agreed a thousand times that adaptation does not prove the power to innovate. However, it does prove there's an autonomous mechanism for small changes, unless your God preprogrammes every adaptation as well as every innovation. That's a basis for my hypothesis.

DAVID: Oxygen may have allowed the Cambrian explosion, but didn't demand the appearance of those very complex animals out of nothing that lived previously.

That is why I suggest that evolution advances through the quest for improvement as well as survival. The increase in oxygen may have offered new opportunities. Not demand. Opportunity.

DAVID: Punc Eq requires that species are isolated and in isolation decide to change, nothing more. It is thin specious thinking, an excuse for change that doesn't hold water.

If you accept common descent, innovations take place in individual organisms, so of course they take place locally – except where there is convergent evolution. Very few environmental changes affect the whole globe simultaneously. Do you think every region on Earth was suddenly populated by the same new species? And what is “specious” about claiming that organisms exploit new opportunities? You believe that too – but you think they were preprogrammed to do so.

dhw: We KNOW that organisms can change their genome in order to adapt. That is not advance planning, it is a reaction. What we don’t know is whether they can make the more complex changes involved in innovation. But it is a possibility that they can.
DAVID: Yes it is a possibility, but large changes, as in speciation require complex planning for the changes to occur in a coordinated fashion.

Thank you for agreeing it is possible that cell communities cooperate to create the complexities of innovation.

dhw: Maybe pre-whales found that food was more plentiful in the water than on the land.
DAVID: Very logical to have land animals just become aquatic instead of migrating as most animals do all the time to follow the food. Just involving the huge requirements for physiological changes to become aquatic defies logic. Why did God allow it? He created a evolutionary plan with a drive for complexity.

Migration means travel into the unknown. Maybe the water was more convenient for Willy Wannerbe Whale, or fish were easier to catch than rabbits, and he enjoyed being in the water. What are you suggesting? Pre-whales should have migrated, but God said: “No, thou shalt go into the water so that thou shalt become more complex for the sake of complexity.”

DAVID: Humans are the current complex endpoint of evolution, but life is made up of many evolutionary branches of a balance of nature in evolution so life has energy to proceed. Whales are one branch in their own niche as top predators.

Yes, life goes on, without or without humans. I know life is made up of many evolutionary branches, and have spent years asking you why your God had to preprogramme or dabble them all if his aim was to produce humans. You admit you don’t understand it. Maybe your hypothesis is wrong.

Dhw: We judge intelligence by watching behaviour, not by watching molecules.
DAVID: If those molecules automatically follow intelligent interaction it can all be planned activity.

If these molecules automatically follow intelligent instructions, their actions can be the result of autonomous planning by the cell community, just as you believe human molecules automatically follow the instructions given by your autonomously intelligent mind. 50/50.

DAVID: I start with the observation above that first life had to have information to run on. Isn't DNA an intricate code? That is information which cannot develop by chance on a rocky planet.
dhw: A very good argument concerning the origin of life and the evolutionary mechanism. But you have a separate theory about how evolution has proceeded, and you claim that in each area of thought your theories follow “the known research findings”...
DAVID: It is not separate. Initial intelligent information started life and conducted the process of evolution. All one plan. Origin of life and origin of species is all one and the same mechanism.

Already agreed in my comment.

DAVID: …I've never said the 3.8 billion year program is scientifically proven. What we know strongly suggests it.

Not agreed. You say your separate theories are based on “known research findings”. The separate theory I'm challenging is that all innovations and natural wonders were preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago or were divinely dabbled. What known research findings support this theory?

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Friday, December 09, 2016, 01:06 (2907 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: …There is no evidence for the Darwin thesis that there is a competition with other species or with environmental conditions. Extinctions are just that. The species cannot adapt, but with minor changes then can adapt. But that does not mean it is a road to new species.

dhw: I don't know why you've suddenly switched from complexity to competition! Anyway, I don't follow your reasoning.

I'll try again. Darwin thought assumes there is a struggle for survival with the environment and with other species leading to speciation. There is no proof of any of that as research has proceeded. Species don't survive without generally more complex adaptations.

dhw: You tell us how in New Zealand the introduction of non-native species has caused havoc to native species. No competition? How can extinctions be caused by environmental conditions, but there's no evidence for “competition” with environmental conditions?

New Zealand is an upset of the balance of nature, which we both agree assumes a new balance every time it is thrown out of balance, this time by human error in planning. Extinctions deny competition.


dhw:I suggest that evolution advances through the quest for improvement as well as survival. The increase in oxygen may have offered new opportunities. Not demand. Opportunity.

Then the 'quest for improvement' must be inherent to existing DNA, and since evolution goes from relatively simple ( bacteria)to complex (human), it is really an inherent drive to complexity. I have no idea why you like the word improvement


DAVID: Punc Eq requires that species are isolated and in isolation decide to change, nothing more. It is thin specious thinking, an excuse for change that doesn't hold water.

dhw: If you accept common descent, innovations take place in individual organisms, so of course they take place locally – except where there is convergent evolution.

Sorry, punc-eq requires isolation, more than a requirement of locality.

dhw: And what is “specious” about claiming that organisms exploit new opportunities? You believe that too – but you think they were preprogrammed to do so.

And you are claiming that organism are programmed to improve, when the evidence is species stasis.

dhw: What are you suggesting? Pre-whales should have migrated, but God said: “No, thou shalt go into the water so that thou shalt become more complex for the sake of complexity.”

No, what you suggest is the illogicality of the whale series as improvement, but it exists and it is highly complex.

DAVID: I start with the observation above that first life had to have information to run on. Isn't DNA an intricate code? That is information which cannot develop by chance on a rocky planet.


DAVID: …I've never said the 3.8 billion year program is scientifically proven. What we know strongly suggests it.

dhw: Not agreed. You say your separate theories are based on “known research findings”. The separate theory I'm challenging is that all innovations and natural wonders were preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago or were divinely dabbled. What known research findings support this theory?

The ever increasing scientific findings of more and more complexity of life's genome layers demands a planning mind which set it up 3.8 billion years ago with a drive to complexity

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Friday, December 09, 2016, 17:33 (2906 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I don't know why you've suddenly switched from complexity to competition! Anyway, I don't follow your reasoning.
DAVID: I'll try again. Darwin thought assumes there is a struggle for survival with the environment and with other species leading to speciation. There is no proof of any of that as research has proceeded. Species don't survive without generally more complex adaptations.

Then I am even more baffled. We were discussing complexity, and out of the blue you switched to competition. Darwin’s theory was that random mutations gave some organisms an advantage over others in the competition for survival, and natural selection ensured the survival of anything advantageous. You and I do not believe in the randomness of mutations, though why you have left out mutations in your summary I don’t know. Successful mutations are what cause speciation, whether they are random, divinely preprogrammed or dabbled, or created by an autonomous, inventive mechanism (perhaps God-given). As for the rest, of course there is competition, and there is also cooperation, and extinctions are caused by environmental factors.

dhw:I suggest that evolution advances through the quest for improvement as well as survival. The increase in oxygen may have offered new opportunities. Not demand. Opportunity.
DAVID: Then the 'quest for improvement' must be inherent to existing DNA, and since evolution goes from relatively simple ( bacteria)to complex (human), it is really an inherent drive to complexity. I have no idea why you like the word improvement.

Because complexity for its own sake makes no sense to me. You always accuse me of avoiding purpose, but I am the one who believes in purpose. Adaptation has the purpose of survival. What is the purpose of innovation? Our human inventions are designed for improvement. All the examples you give of symbiosis clearly offer benefit (= improvement) to the partners. Complexity for the sake of producing humans leaves you with the impossible task of explaining why your God had to personally design millions of other unrelated complexities, 99% of which he discarded. Why is complexity for the sake of complexity a more convincing purpose that complexity for the sake of improvement?

DAVID: Punc Eq requires that species are isolated and in isolation decide to change, nothing more. It is thin specious thinking, an excuse for change that doesn't hold water.
dhw: If you accept common descent, innovations take place in individual organisms, so of course they take place locally – except where there is convergent evolution.
DAVID: Sorry, punc-eq requires isolation, more than a requirement of locality.

I’ve never seen “isolation” mentioned in any definition of p.e., but it really doesn’t matter. I will substitute my own hypothesis: namely, that long periods of stasis will be interrupted by environmental changes (mainly localized) that offer organisms new opportunities to improve their way of life, thereby triggering relatively swift changes in their genetic makeup. (But as you once indicated, survival is an improvement over non-survival!) Successful changes will be perpetuated by natural selection.

dhw: And what is “specious” about claiming that organisms exploit new opportunities? You believe that too – but you think they were preprogrammed to do so.
DAVID: And you are claiming that organism are programmed to improve, when the evidence is species stasis.

If you believe in common descent, speciation is the process that breaks species stasis, because each new species must be a departure from an existing species!

dhw: What are you suggesting? Pre-whales should have migrated, but God said: “No, thou shalt go into the water so that thou shalt become more complex for the sake of complexity.”
DAVID: No, what you suggest is the illogicality of the whale series as improvement, but it exists and it is highly complex.

Each transitional stage in the series was an organism in its own right. What makes you so sure that each stage was not an improvement, e.g. in the ability to swim, to breathe, to steer? And what in your view was the purpose of pre-whale complexity?

dhw: You say your separate theories are based on “known research findings”. The separate theory I'm challenging is that all innovations and natural wonders were preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago or were divinely dabbled. What known research findings support this theory?
DAVID: The ever increasing scientific findings of more and more complexity of life's genome layers demands a planning mind which set it up 3.8 billion years ago with a drive to complexity.

Back you go to the origin instead of the process of evolution. The complexity of life’s genome layers provides just as much evidence for my hypothesis of a possibly God-given autonomous inventive mechanism as it does for your hypothesis of a divine computer programme or dabble to produce every single innovation and natural wonder in the history of life, all for the sake of humans.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Friday, December 09, 2016, 19:32 (2906 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: Then I am even more baffled. We were discussing complexity, and out of the blue you switched to competition. Darwin’s theory was that random mutations gave some organisms an advantage over others in the competition for survival, and natural selection ensured the survival of anything advantageous.

Because survival, competition and complexity are all related concepts and intertwined. Generally more complex organisms should have more survivability. But we also see that whale complexity seems like a road to nowhere. Yes they survive in a different environment, with enormous physiologic alterations. Why did evolution bother? Only a drive to complexity makes sense. Their only competition is with their environment not other aquatic animals. To me Darwin implied competition with other species. Is dtahat wrong?

dhw:Complexity for the sake of producing humans leaves you with the impossible task of explaining why your God had to personally design millions of other unrelated complexities, 99% of which he discarded.

Back to the necessity for a balance of nature.

DAVID: Sorry, punc-eq requires isolation, more than a requirement of locality.

I’ve never seen “isolation” mentioned in any definition of p.e.,

From Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium

"Smaller populations on the other hand, which are isolated from the parental stock, are decoupled from the homogenizing effects of gene flow. In addition, pressure from natural selection is especially intense, as peripheral isolated populations exist at the outer edges of ecological tolerance. If most evolution happens in these rare instances of allopatric speciation then evidence of gradual evolution in the fossil record should be rare. This hypothesis was alluded to by Mayr in the closing paragraph of his 1954 paper:
"'Rapidly evolving peripherally isolated populations may be the place of origin of many evolutionary novelties. Their isolation and comparatively small size may explain phenomena of rapid evolution and lack of documentation in the fossil record, hitherto puzzling to the palaeontologist."

DAVID: what you suggest is the illogicality of the whale series as improvement, but it exists and it is highly complex.

dhw: Each transitional stage in the series was an organism in its own right. What makes you so sure that each stage was not an improvement, e.g. in the ability to swim, to breathe, to steer? And what in your view was the purpose of pre-whale complexity?

Yes, a strange form of improvement. I don't understand the purpose except aquatic balance of nature.


dhw: Back you go to the origin instead of the process of evolution. The complexity of life’s genome layers provides just as much evidence for my hypothesis of a possibly God-given autonomous inventive mechanism as it does for your hypothesis of a divine computer programme or dabble to produce every single innovation and natural wonder in the history of life, all for the sake of humans.

See my entries today about species variability as an alternative to future speciation. With enormous adaptability, why speciate further?

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Saturday, December 10, 2016, 12:25 (2905 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Then I am even more baffled. We were discussing complexity, and out of the blue you switched to competition. Darwin’s theory was that random mutations gave some organisms an advantage over others in the competition for survival, and natural selection ensured the survival of anything advantageous.
DAVID: Because survival, competition and complexity are all related concepts and intertwined. Generally more complex organisms should have more survivability.

Why? The more complex organisms are, the more things can go wrong. The great survivors are the simplest organisms.

DAVID: But we also see that whale complexity seems like a road to nowhere. Yes they survive in a different environment, with enormous physiologic alterations. Why did evolution bother? Only a drive to complexity makes sense. Their only competition is with their environment not other aquatic animals. To me Darwin implied competition with other species. Is that wrong?

We are not arguing about Darwin. If an organism can survive in a different environment, that is an improvement over not surviving. Only a drive to survival and/or improvement makes sense.

dhw: Complexity for the sake of producing humans leaves you with the impossible task of explaining why your God had to personally design millions of other unrelated complexities, 99% of which he discarded.
DAVID: Back to the necessity for a balance of nature.

We have agreed several times that Nature is “balanced” so long as life goes on, with or without humans. The expression provides no explanation whatsoever for your anthropocentric view of evolution.

DAVID: Sorry, punc-eq requires isolation, more than a requirement of locality.
Dhw: I’ve never seen “isolation” mentioned in any definition of p.e.,
DAVID: From Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium
"Smaller populations on the other hand, which are isolated from the parental stock, are decoupled from the homogenizing effects of gene flow” etc.

Thank you for this explanation. I will stick to my own terminology, then, though of course local evolution encompasses isolated evolution.

DAVID: ...what you suggest is the illogicality of the whale series as improvement, but it exists and it is highly complex.
dhw: Each transitional stage in the series was an organism in its own right. What makes you so sure that each stage was not an improvement, e.g. in the ability to swim, to breathe, to steer? And what in your view was the purpose of pre-whale complexity?
DAVID: Yes, a strange form of improvement. I don't understand the purpose except aquatic balance of nature.

Why is improved swimming, breathing, steering a strange form of improvement? And why is improvement not a purpose in itself?

dhw: Back you go to the origin instead of the process of evolution. The complexity of life’s genome layers provides just as much evidence for my hypothesis of a possibly God-given autonomous inventive mechanism as it does for your hypothesis of a divine computer programme or dabble to produce every single innovation and natural wonder in the history of life, all for the sake of humans.

DAVID: See my entries today about species variability as an alternative to future speciation. With enormous adaptability, why speciate further?

See my comments on species variability. Why speciate further? In order to improve. Why create pre-whale and whale if all you want to do is produce humans? And don’t tell me “balance of Nature” (see above). The complexity of life’s genome layers lends itself perfectly well to the concept of cellular intelligence. And you still haven’t told us the “known research findings” that support your divine preprogramming/dabbling hypothesis.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 10, 2016, 22:36 (2905 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Because survival, competition and complexity are all related concepts and intertwined. Generally more complex organisms should have more survivability.

dhw: Why? The more complex organisms are, the more things can go wrong. The great survivors are the simplest organisms.

You are right. I was considering organisms beyond the bacterial level.

dhw: If an organism can survive in a different environment, that is an improvement over not surviving. Only a drive to survival and/or improvement makes sense.

We are discussing whales. Entering a hostile aquatic environment with the requirement of a complex physiological new phenotype to me is an exercise in futility and makes no sense. Yes the animals do survive and are improved in the sense they achieve the ability to survive in water. But they are certainly lots more complex.

dhw: We have agreed several times that Nature is “balanced” so long as life goes on, with or without humans. The expression provides no explanation whatsoever for your anthropocentric view of evolution.

It explains how everyone ate until humans arrived.

dhw: The complexity of life’s genome layers lends itself perfectly well to the concept of cellular intelligence. And you still haven’t told us the “known research findings” that support your divine preprogramming/dabbling hypothesis.

That cellular intelligence is supplied by God at the origin of life. Planning by an intelligent mind is required by the layers of genome complexity you refer to, which are discoveries by science, of which you are fully aware. All of that leads to my theory of programming. Dabbling is a supposition of mine related to probable course correction in the process of evolution which might drift off course. God uses to evolution as a process to produce humans.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 13:13 (2904 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: If an organism can survive in a different environment, that is an improvement over not surviving. Only a drive to survival and/or improvement makes sense.
DAVID: We are discussing whales. Entering a hostile aquatic environment with the requirement of a complex physiological new phenotype to me is an exercise in futility and makes no sense. Yes the animals do survive and are improved in the sense they achieve the ability to survive in water. But they are certainly lots more complex.

Why do you say the aquatic environment was “hostile”? How do you know it was more “hostile” than the land environment they decided to leave, perhaps once conditions had changed? Just as fish may have explored the land as offering new opportunities, pre-whales may have explored the water. “Wow, nice yummy fish here, and so easy to catch…This is the life, boys and girls!” What exactly is your theory? That God preprogrammed/dabbled them to enter the water so that step by step they could become more complex, because although he really wanted to create humans, he needed step-by-step more complex whales in the water to balance nature so that life could go on until humans came? Does that make sense to you?

dhw: We have agreed several times that Nature is “balanced” so long as life goes on, with or without humans. The expression provides no explanation whatsoever for your anthropocentric view of evolution.
DAVID: It explains how everyone ate until humans arrived.

How does that explain why your God had to specially design the great bush of different species, 99% of which disappeared? You have admitted you don’t know (“Why He didn’t just start at the Garden of Eden, I cannot explain”), so why do you pursue this line of argument?

dhw: The complexity of life’s genome layers lends itself perfectly well to the concept of cellular intelligence. And you still haven’t told us the “known research findings” that support your divine preprogramming/dabbling hypothesis.
DAVID: That cellular intelligence is supplied by God at the origin of life.

I thought you didn’t believe in cellular intelligence, so I’m delighted to hear that it is now a known research finding, but I do not know of any known research findings that confirm the existence of God.

DAVID: Planning by an intelligent mind is required by the layers of genome complexity you refer to, which are discoveries by science, of which you are fully aware.

The layers of genome complexity are indeed known research findings. What known research findings tell us these were planned by “an intelligent mind”?

DAVID: All of that leads to my theory of programming. Dabbling is a supposition of mine related to probable course correction in the process of evolution which might drift off course. God uses to evolution as a process to produce humans.

I am aware of your theory, but not of the “known research findings” that support it. All you have come up with here are the layers of genome complexity, which fit in just as well with my cellular intelligence hypothesis as with your preprogramming/dabbling theory.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Sunday, December 11, 2016, 21:19 (2904 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: We are discussing whales. Entering a hostile aquatic environment with the requirement of a complex physiological new phenotype to me is an exercise in futility and makes no sense. Yes the animals do survive and are improved in the sense they achieve the ability to survive in water. But they are certainly lots more complex.

dhw: Why do you say the aquatic environment was “hostile”? How do you know it was more “hostile” than the land environment they decided to leave, perhaps once conditions had changed? Just as fish may have explored the land as offering new opportunities, pre-whales may have explored the water. “Wow, nice yummy fish here, and so easy to catch…This is the life, boys and girls!” What exactly is your theory?

How much swimming have you done in your life. If you and your wife decided to play house in the water, how would she give birth or nurse? This is some of the simple stuff land mammals had to reconfigure their bodies to do. Simple decision? Fish are yummy? Sounding whales can do so because of enormous changes in their lungs. The conversion from land to sea makes no sense to me unless evolution is a drive for complexity. Evolution certainly found it here.

dhw: That God preprogrammed/dabbled them to enter the water so that step by step they could become more complex, because although he really wanted to create humans, he needed step-by-step more complex whales in the water to balance nature so that life could go on until humans came? Does that make sense to you?

What makes sense to me is an evolutionary drive to complexity, that didn't care about what whacky branch evolution created. And have you noticed, human did arrive? I'm only theorizing from historical facts.


dhw:How does that explain why your God had to specially design the great bush of different species, 99% of which disappeared? You have admitted you don’t know (“Why He didn’t just start at the Garden of Eden, I cannot explain”), so why do you pursue this line of argument?

Because
I look at historical facts and try to make some logical sense of it.

DAVID: That cellular intelligence is supplied by God at the origin of life.

dhw: I thought you didn’t believe in cellular intelligence, so I’m delighted to hear that it is now a known research finding, but I do not know of any known research findings that confirm the existence of God.

Remember I believe God provided intelligent information in the layers of the genome from the very first life.


DAVID: Planning by an intelligent mind is required by the layers of genome complexity you refer to, which are discoveries by science, of which you are fully aware.

dhw: The layers of genome complexity are indeed known research findings. What known research findings tell us these were planned by “an intelligent mind”?

No research. Logic. Only a planning mind can create the life we see.


DAVID: All of that leads to my theory of programming. Dabbling is a supposition of mine related to probable course correction in the process of evolution which might drift off course. God uses to evolution as a process to produce humans.

dhw: I am aware of your theory, but not of the “known research findings” that support it. All you have come up with here are the layers of genome complexity, which fit in just as well with my cellular intelligence hypothesis as with your preprogramming/dabbling theory.

And you have no idea how a rocky planet invented intelligent life. God is obviously required. The evidence is well beyond a reasonable doubt for us who have come to believe. You don't want to accept the sum of the evidence.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Monday, December 12, 2016, 15:49 (2903 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Why do you say the aquatic environment was “hostile”? How do you know it was more “hostile” than the land environment they decided to leave, perhaps once conditions had changed? Just as fish may have explored the land as offering new opportunities, pre-whales may have explored the water. “Wow, nice yummy fish here, and so easy to catch…This is the life, boys and girls!” What exactly is your theory?

DAVID: How much swimming have you done in your life. If you and your wife decided to play house in the water, how would she give birth or nurse? This is some of the simple stuff land mammals had to reconfigure their bodies to do. Simple decision? Fish are yummy? Sounding whales can do so because of enormous changes in their lungs. The conversion from land to sea makes no sense to me unless evolution is a drive for complexity. Evolution certainly found it here.

So if evolution is a drive for complexity for the sake of complexity, all these changes are no problem and make perfect sense to you, but if evolution is a drive for improvement, which involves greater complexity, they are a problem and make no sense? The changes will be the same whatever the purpose.

DAVID: What makes sense to me is an evolutionary drive to complexity, that didn't care about what whacky branch evolution created. And have you noticed, human did arrive? I'm only theorizing from historical facts.

So now we have God wanting to produce humans, but deliberately designing all these "whacky" branches for reasons you can’t explain. I did notice that humans arrived, and so did mosquitoes and the duckbilled platypus and the killifish. And I asked you:
dhw: How does that explain why your God had to specially design the great bush of different species, 99% of which disappeared? You have admitted you don’t know (“Why He didn’t just start at the Garden of Eden, I cannot explain”), so why do you pursue this line of argument?
DAVID: Because I look at historical facts and try to make some logical sense of it.

So do I. And if a theory cannot make logical sense of the facts, as you have admitted, perhaps it’s because there‘s a flaw in the theory. The rest of your post can be summed up by the following exchange:

dhw: I am aware of your theory, but not of the “known research findings” that support it. All you have come up with here are the layers of genome complexity, which fit in just as well with my cellular intelligence hypothesis as with your preprogramming/dabbling theory.
DAVID: And you have no idea how a rocky planet invented intelligent life. God is obviously required. The evidence is well beyond a reasonable doubt for us who have come to believe. You don't want to accept the sum of the evidence.

I simply objected to your claim that your beliefs were based on “known research findings”, which clearly they are not. I accept that you have good reasons for your faith, just as I hope you can accept that I have good reasons for my doubts.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Monday, December 12, 2016, 17:40 (2903 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: What exactly is your theory?

DAVID: How much swimming have you done in your life. If you and your wife decided to play house in the water, how would she give birth or nurse? This is some of the simple stuff land mammals had to reconfigure their bodies to do. Simple decision? Fish are yummy? Sounding whales can do so because of enormous changes in their lungs. The conversion from land to sea makes no sense to me unless evolution is a drive for complexity. Evolution certainly found it here.

dhw: So if evolution is a drive for complexity for the sake of complexity, all these changes are no problem and make perfect sense to you, but if evolution is a drive for improvement, which involves greater complexity, they are a problem and make no sense? The changes will be the same whatever the purpose.

You have again side-stepped the issue of the necessity of huge physiologic change required to enter the ocean. It makes no sense because it is so difficult to accomplish through mutations. Why did life's evolution try it? It is the dumbest improvement I've seen if viewed logically, but it is complex.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Tuesday, December 13, 2016, 13:12 (2902 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: What exactly is your theory?

DAVID: How much swimming have you done in your life. If you and your wife decided to play house in the water, how would she give birth or nurse? This is some of the simple stuff land mammals had to reconfigure their bodies to do. Simple decision? Fish are yummy? Sounding whales can do so because of enormous changes in their lungs. The conversion from land to sea makes no sense to me unless evolution is a drive for complexity. Evolution certainly found it here.

dhw: So if evolution is a drive for complexity for the sake of complexity, all these changes are no problem and make perfect sense to you, but if evolution is a drive for improvement, which involves greater complexity, they are a problem and make no sense? The changes will be the same whatever the purpose.

DAVID: You have again side-stepped the issue of the necessity of huge physiologic change required to enter the ocean. It makes no sense because it is so difficult to accomplish through mutations. Why did life's evolution try it? It is the dumbest improvement I've seen if viewed logically, but it is complex.

You have again sidestepped the issue of purpose. Why did pre-whales enter the water? Are you telling us that your God made them do so just because he wanted them to be more complex? Of course I accept the necessity for huge physiological changes, but what do you mean by “difficult to accomplish through mutations”? Mutation means change! If the land mammals entered the water because food was plentiful there (and maybe there was a shortage on land), the changes according to my hypothesis would have been the result of their entering the water to get it, though in this case I would suggest that the changes need not have been immediate, since the earliest versions could have returned to land after their fishing expeditions. I don’t know the details of each change any more than you do, but if organisms found the water provided a better living than the land, I am not surprised that their bodies would have changed in order to make them more suited to the new environment. What does surprise me is that you seem to think the changes are all perfectly feasible if your God wanted pre-whales to be more complex for the sake of being more complex, whereas they are not feasible if your God gave pre-whales the means to make their own changes once they discovered how to improve their way of life.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 13, 2016, 19:52 (2902 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: You have again sidestepped the issue of purpose. Why did pre-whales enter the water? Are you telling us that your God made them do so just because he wanted them to be more complex? Of course I accept the necessity for huge physiological changes, but what do you mean by “difficult to accomplish through mutations”? Mutation means change! If the land mammals entered the water because food was plentiful there (and maybe there was a shortage on land), the changes according to my hypothesis would have been the result of their entering the water to get it, though in this case I would suggest that the changes need not have been immediate, since the earliest versions could have returned to land after their fishing expeditions. I don’t know the details of each change any more than you do, but if organisms found the water provided a better living than the land, I am not surprised that their bodies would have changed in order to make them more suited to the new environment. What does surprise me is that you seem to think the changes are all perfectly feasible if your God wanted pre-whales to be more complex for the sake of being more complex, whereas they are not feasible if your God gave pre-whales the means to make their own changes once they discovered how to improve their way of life.


The purpose is complexity. Not skipped. The importance of considering mutations is that the different forms in the whale series are each so different, it would require many thousand changes, each planned to coordinate with other changes to create a useful new species on the way to today's whales.

Your statement about the way change occurred harks back to Darwin:

"the changes according to my hypothesis would have been the result of their entering the water to get it, though in this case I would suggest that the changes need not have been immediate, since the earliest versions could have returned to land after their fishing expeditions."

Again the suggestion of itty-bitty experimental adaptations, which the fossil record denies. There are only big gaps! The remainder of your statement simply expands upon the same approach. Trial and error. We don't know how speciation occurs but each form is very different until we get to Humpbacks and Orcas.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Wednesday, December 14, 2016, 14:01 (2901 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Why did pre-whales enter the water? Are you telling us that your God made them do so just because he wanted them to be more complex?
DAVID: The purpose is complexity.

And what is the purpose of complexity?

DAVID: The importance of considering mutations is that the different forms in the whale series are each so different, it would require many thousand changes, each planned to coordinate with other changes to create a useful new species on the way to today's whales.

Agreed. The same applies to every innovation you can think of. That is how evolution has progressed from bacteria to humans: every one resulting in new species, some more complex than others. You now have your God specially designing whales, nests, migratory lifestyles and symbiotic relations, but you have no idea how they all tie in with his purpose of producing humans. And yet you won’t even consider the possibility that (theistic version) he might have given all these different organisms the means of pursuing their own purpose: i.e. working out and implementing a way of life that suits themselves.

DAVID: Your statement about the way change occurred harks back to Darwin:
"the changes according to my hypothesis would have been the result of their entering the water to get it [food], though in this case I would suggest that the changes need not have been immediate, since the earliest versions could have returned to land after their fishing expeditions."
Again the suggestion of itty-bitty experimental adaptations, which the fossil record denies. There are only big gaps! The remainder of your statement simply expands upon the same approach. Trial and error. We don't know how speciation occurs but each form is very different until we get to Humpbacks and Orcas.

No, we don’t know how speciation occurs. My hypothesis is that pre-whales explored the water, and the changes came about when they took to the new environment, and later changes may have been to improve swimming, breathing, steering. I think all of evolution advances that way: finding new means of exploiting changing conditions. My reference to the possibility that pre-whales might have returned to land was not to changes but to the fact that they didn’t have to decide all of a sudden that they would become aquatic. Whereas if I’ve understood you correctly, you think God fiddled around with them on land and then suddenly pushed them into the water already fully equipped for aquatic life, because he wanted them to be more complex (and later to be more complex).

The remainder of my post did not expand on the same approach. I was surprised that you “seem to think that the changes are all perfectly feasible if your God wanted pre-whales to be more complex for the sake of being more complex, whereas they are not feasible if your God gave pre-whales the means to make their own changes once they discovered how to improve their way of life.” This is a major issue between us in our (theistic) interpretation of life’s history.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 14, 2016, 18:41 (2901 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Why did pre-whales enter the water? Are you telling us that your God made them do so just because he wanted them to be more complex?
DAVID: The purpose is complexity.

And what is the purpose of complexity?

The most complex of all, producing humans


DAVID: The importance of considering mutations is that the different forms in the whale series are each so different, it would require many thousand changes, each planned to coordinate with other changes to create a useful new species on the way to today's whales.

dhw: Agreed. The same applies to every innovation you can think of..... And yet you won’t even consider the possibility that (theistic version) he might have given all these different organisms the means of pursuing their own purpose: i.e. working out and implementing a way of life that suits themselves.

We've discussed an inventive mechanism. But choosing to entire water for an aquatic life creates a strenuous process to adapt for it. That is why I think God created a complexity drive and guided it with the intent of producing humans. Why whales still puzzles me, but we have to accept they evolved somehow. I can still ask, why?


DAVID: Your statement about the way change occurred harks back to Darwin:
"the changes according to my hypothesis would have been the result of their entering the water to get it [food], though in this case I would suggest that the changes need not have been immediate, since the earliest versions could have returned to land after their fishing expeditions."

Again the suggestion of itty-bitty experimental adaptations, which the fossil record denies. There are only big gaps! The remainder of your statement simply expands upon the same approach. Trial and error. We don't know how speciation occurs but each form is very different until we get to Humpbacks and Orcas.[/i]

dhw: No, we don’t know how speciation occurs. My hypothesis is that pre-whales explored the water, and the changes came about when they took to the new environment, and later changes may have been to improve swimming, breathing, steering. I think all of evolution advances that way: finding new means of exploiting changing conditions. My reference to the possibility that pre-whales might have returned to land was not to changes but to the fact that they didn’t have to decide all of a sudden that they would become aquatic. Whereas if I’ve understood you correctly, you think God fiddled around with them on land and then suddenly pushed them into the water already fully equipped for aquatic life, because he wanted them to be more complex (and later to be more complex).

That is exactly what I think. Your statement " the fact that they didn’t have to decide all of a sudden" is false. The gaps in phenotype tell us 'sudden'. No transitional itty-bitty forms.


dhw: The remainder of my post did not expand on the same approach. I was surprised that you “seem to think that the changes are all perfectly feasible if your God wanted pre-whales to be more complex for the sake of being more complex, whereas they are not feasible if your God gave pre-whales the means to make their own changes once they discovered how to improve their way of life.” This is a major issue between us in our (theistic) interpretation of life’s history.

A maj9r issue that will continue. Your theistic approach comes from a basis of non-belief, so you strain to find a reason for approaching a plan God might have. I recognize your honest attempt at being an agnostic, but I see your theological thinking as very biased when you try it on, but I don't see it as a fault, just uncertainty.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Thursday, December 15, 2016, 16:53 (2900 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Why did pre-whales enter the water? Are you telling us that your God made them do so just because he wanted them to be more complex?
DAVID: The purpose is complexity.
dhw: And what is the purpose of complexity?
DAVID: The most complex of all, producing humans.

So God had to make the pre-whale more and more complex in order to produce humans. And even you can’t understand why:
DAVID: Why whales still puzzles me, but we have to accept they evolved somehow. I can still ask, why?

Yes, we do have to accept that they and mosquitoes and the duckbilled platypus evolved somehow, and the weaverbird somehow built its nest, and the monarch somehow got to its destination etc., and it is really puzzling that God had to do all this just to produce humans. And yes, you can still ask why. But what I mustn’t ask is whether perhaps God might have gone about things differently from the way you say he did.

Dhw: My reference to the possibility that pre-whales might have returned to land was not to changes but to the fact that they didn’t have to decide all of a sudden that they would become aquatic. Whereas if I’ve understood you correctly, you think God fiddled around with them on land and then suddenly pushed them into the water already fully equipped for aquatic life, because he wanted them to be more complex (and later to be more complex).
DAVID: That is exactly what I think. Your statement "the fact that they didn’t have to decide all of a sudden" is false. The gaps in phenotype tell us 'sudden'. No transitional itty-bitty forms.

Perhaps I didn't make my point clear: that the changes would only have taken place once pre-whales had opted for life in the water, whereas you insist that the changes took place before they entered the water.

dhw: The remainder of my post did not expand on the same approach. I was surprised that you “seem to think that the changes are all perfectly feasible if your God wanted pre-whales to be more complex for the sake of being more complex, whereas they are not feasible if your God gave pre-whales the means to make their own changes once they discovered how to improve their way of life.” This is a major issue between us in our (theistic) interpretation of life’s history.
DAVID: A major issue that will continue. Your theistic approach comes from a basis of non-belief, so you strain to find a reason for approaching a plan God might have. I recognize your honest attempt at being an agnostic, but I see your theological thinking as very biased when you try it on, but I don't see it as a fault, just uncertainty
.

Yes, I strain to find a reason why evolution has taken this particular course, and that reason must allow for the existence of God. You have admitted that my own scenario accounts for all the facts we know about life’s history. Yours, on the other hand, leaves you “puzzled”, because you can’t fit the facts to your version of the history. I really don’t think you can blame my agnosticism for the flaws in your hypothesis.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 15, 2016, 20:45 (2900 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Why whales still puzzles me, but we have to accept they evolved somehow. I can still ask, why?

dhw: Yes, we do have to accept that they and mosquitoes and the duckbilled platypus evolved somehow, and the weaverbird somehow built its nest, and the monarch somehow got to its destination etc., and it is really puzzling that God had to do all this just to produce humans. And yes, you can still ask why. But what I mustn’t ask is whether perhaps God might have gone about things differently from the way you say he did.

No, certainly ask. But I don't accept your theistic theories as sated previously.


dhw: Perhaps I didn't make my point clear: that the changes would only have taken place once pre-whales had opted for life in the water, whereas you insist that the changes took place before they entered the water.

The whale series has eight or nine forms, the first of which prepared them for the water. Later forms were fully aquatic. God's stepwise control.

David:I recognize your honest attempt at being an agnostic, but I see your theological thinking as very biased when you try it on, but I don't see it as a fault, just uncertainty[/i].

dhw:Yes, I strain to find a reason why evolution has taken this particular course, and that reason must allow for the existence of God. You have admitted that my own scenario accounts for all the facts we know about life’s history. Yours, on the other hand, leaves you “puzzled”, because you can’t fit the facts to your version of the history. I really don’t think you can blame my agnosticism for the flaws in your hypothesis.

I don't see my puzzlement as a flaw. The whale series is a testament to God's inventiveness. I have to presume it is God's way of providing top predators for a balance of nature in the oceans.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Friday, December 16, 2016, 12:30 (2899 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Perhaps I didn't make my point clear: that the changes would only have taken place once pre-whales had opted for life in the water, whereas you insist that the changes took place before they entered the water.

DAVID: The whale series has eight or nine forms, the first of which prepared them for the water. Later forms were fully aquatic. God's stepwise control.

Didn’t God know how to make a “proper” whale right from the start? Ditto a “proper” human? Why these “itty-bitty” steps (your favourite criticism of Darwinism)? Why so much trouble over trying to perfect the whale when all God wanted was humans? It puzzles you, but your puzzlement doesn’t make you doubt your reading of God’s mind.

DAVID: I recognize your honest attempt at being an agnostic, but I see your theological thinking as very biased when you try it on, but I don't see it as a fault, just uncertainty.
dhw: …I really don’t think you can blame my agnosticism for the flaws in your hypothesis.
DAVID: I don't see my puzzlement as a flaw. The whale series is a testament to God's inventiveness. I have to presume it is God's way of providing top predators for a balance of nature in the oceans.

Everything is a testament to God’s inventiveness, if he exists. The flaw is not your puzzlement. The flaw is what makes you puzzled. You can’t understand the vast variety of life forms extinct and extant if God’s aim was simply to produce humans. So maybe his aim was not simply to produce humans. Maybe his aim was to allow his initial mechanism to produce a vast variety of life forms, and pre-whales worked out their own step-by-step improvements. Humans may have been an afterthought. Or maybe he just kept experimenting in the hope of coming up with a fully conscious mind like his own (just as our robot-makers are trying to do). We can only search for an explanation of what we believe to be the facts. If a theory doesn’t seem to fit them, it has to be suspect.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Friday, December 16, 2016, 20:17 (2899 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: The whale series has eight or nine forms, the first of which prepared them for the water. Later forms were fully aquatic. God's stepwise control.

dhw: Didn’t God know how to make a “proper” whale right from the start? Ditto a “proper” human? Why these “itty-bitty” steps (your favourite criticism of Darwinism)? Why so much trouble over trying to perfect the whale when all God wanted was humans? It puzzles you, but your puzzlement doesn’t make you doubt your reading of God’s mind.

God used an evolutionary process which requires steps, as we see. As for Darwin, his theory requires itty-bitty steps, which don't exist, as he hoped they would to explain the Cambrian9 huis biggest worry about his theory,

dhw: …I really don’t think you can blame my agnosticism for the flaws in your hypothesis.

DAVID: I don't see my puzzlement as a flaw. The whale series is a testament to God's inventiveness. I have to presume it is God's way of providing top predators for a balance of nature in the oceans.

dhw: Everything is a testament to God’s inventiveness, if he exists. The flaw is not your puzzlement. The flaw is what makes you puzzled. You can’t understand the vast variety of life forms extinct and extant if God’s aim was simply to produce humans.

But I do understand it. Balance of nature is reqired

dhw: So maybe his aim was not simply to produce humans. Maybe his aim was to allow his initial mechanism to produce a vast variety of life forms, and pre-whales worked out their own step-by-step improvements. Humans may have been an afterthought. Or maybe he just kept experimenting in the hope of coming up with a fully conscious mind like his own (just as our robot-makers are trying to do).

He certainly did come up with conscious beings, His obvious purpose.

dhw: We can only search for an explanation of what we believe to be the facts. If a theory doesn’t seem to fit them, it has to be suspect.

That is true. It depends upon who is doing the suspecting.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Saturday, December 17, 2016, 13:47 (2898 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The whale series has eight or nine forms, the first of which prepared them for the water. Later forms were fully aquatic. God's stepwise control.

dhw: Didn’t God know how to make a “proper” whale right from the start? Ditto a “proper” human? Why these “itty-bitty” steps (your favourite criticism of Darwinism)? Why so much trouble over trying to perfect the whale when all God wanted was humans? It puzzles you, but your puzzlement doesn’t make you doubt your reading of God’s mind.

DAVID: God used an evolutionary process which requires steps, as we see. As for Darwin, his theory requires itty-bitty steps, which don't exist, as he hoped they would to explain the Cambrian his biggest worry about his theory.

So once again: why do you think God took so much trouble over trying to perfect the whale when all he wanted was humans? And please don’t say “balance of nature”, which you have agreed means nothing more than life goes on, without or without humans.

dhw: So maybe his aim was not simply to produce humans. Maybe his aim was to allow his initial mechanism to produce a vast variety of life forms, and pre-whales worked out their own step-by-step improvements. Humans may have been an afterthought. Or maybe he just kept experimenting in the hope of coming up with a fully conscious mind like his own (just as our robot-makers are trying to do).

DAVID: He certainly did come up with conscious beings, His obvious purpose.

I am not doubting the fact that humans are here. So are the duckbilled platypus and the weaverbird’s nest. The afterthought/experiment hypotheses allow for your God’s deliberate production of humans, while also explaining the vast variety of life forms extinct and extant which were and are irrelevant to the creation of humans and which cause you such puzzlement. What are your objections to these two theistic hypotheses?

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 17, 2016, 15:05 (2898 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: So once again: why do you think God took so much trouble over trying to perfect the whale when all he wanted was humans? And please don’t say “balance of nature”, which you have agreed means nothing more than life goes on, without or without humans.


Don't slough off balance of nature. It is essential as a requirement for an energy requirement for life to continue.


dhw: So maybe his aim was not simply to produce humans. Maybe his aim was to allow his initial mechanism to produce a vast variety of life forms, and pre-whales worked out their own step-by-step improvements. Humans may have been an afterthought. Or maybe he just kept experimenting in the hope of coming up with a fully conscious mind like his own (just as our robot-makers are trying to do).

DAVID: He certainly did come up with conscious beings, His obvious purpose.

dhw: I am not doubting the fact that humans are here. So are the duckbilled platypus and the weaverbird’s nest. The afterthought/experiment hypotheses allow for your God’s deliberate production of humans, while also explaining the vast variety of life forms extinct and extant which were and are irrelevant to the creation of humans and which cause you such puzzlement. What are your objections to these two theistic hypotheses?

I still prefer a freewheeling drive to complexity theory and the absolute need for a balance of nature to supply energy.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Sunday, December 18, 2016, 13:39 (2897 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: So once again: why do you think God took so much trouble over trying to perfect the whale when all he wanted was humans? And please don’t say “balance of nature”, which you have agreed means nothing more than life goes on, without or without humans.

DAVID: Don't slough off balance of nature. It is essential as a requirement for an energy requirement for life to continue.

Yes, it means nothing more than life goes on, with or without humans. That does not explain why a God whose purpose was to produce humans took so much trouble trying to perfect the whale or – if I may return to my favourite example of your great evolutionary non sequitur – teaching the weaverbird how to build its nest.

dhw: So maybe his aim was not simply to produce humans. Maybe his aim was to allow his initial mechanism to produce a vast variety of life forms, and pre-whales worked out their own step-by-step improvements. Humans may have been an afterthought. Or maybe he just kept experimenting in the hope of coming up with a fully conscious mind like his own (just as our robot-makers are trying to do).

DAVID: He certainly did come up with conscious beings, His obvious purpose.

dhw: I am not doubting the fact that humans are here. So are the duckbilled platypus and the weaverbird’s nest. The afterthought/experiment hypotheses allow for your God’s deliberate production of humans, while also explaining the vast variety of life forms extinct and extant which were and are irrelevant to the creation of humans and which cause you such puzzlement. What are your objections to these two theistic hypotheses?

DAVID: I still prefer a freewheeling drive to complexity theory and the absolute need for a balance of nature to supply energy.

I like “freewheeling” – in contrast to your previous claims that God is in total control. And yes, life needs energy if it is to go on. Neither of these observations precludes the notion that God might have created humans as an afterthought, or might have experimented in his quest to produce a creature with consciousness like his own. Both hypotheses explain the higgledy-piggledy history of life on Earth.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Sunday, December 18, 2016, 21:51 (2897 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: I still prefer a freewheeling drive to complexity theory and the absolute need for a balance of nature to supply energy.

dhw:I like “freewheeling” – in contrast to your previous claims that God is in total control. And yes, life needs energy if it is to go on. Neither of these observations precludes the notion that God might have created humans as an afterthought, or might have experimented in his quest to produce a creature with consciousness like his own. Both hypotheses explain the higgledy-piggledy history of life on Earth.

Yes, freewheeling, but if it goes off course it is directed back to the purpose of producing humans. God is watching and in final control at all times.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Monday, December 19, 2016, 12:54 (2896 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I still prefer a freewheeling drive to complexity theory and the absolute need for a balance of nature to supply energy.

dhw: I like “freewheeling” – in contrast to your previous claims that God is in total control. And yes, life needs energy if it is to go on. Neither of these observations precludes the notion that God might have created humans as an afterthought, or might have experimented in his quest to produce a creature with consciousness like his own. Both hypotheses explain the higgledy-piggledy history of life on Earth.

DAVID: Yes, freewheeling, but if it goes off course it is directed back to the purpose of producing humans. God is watching and in final control at all times.

This is a strange development. I ought to welcome it, because it tells us that your God gave organisms the ability you have so long denied – namely to organize their own evolution. But if freewheeling had to serve his purpose of producing humans, you have a problem, unless you truly believe that God dabbled to ensure that the pre-whale, the migrating monarch and the nest-building weaverbird came back on course to produce humans – a connection which even you find puzzling. How about the dinosaurs? Did they freewheel unprogrammed and undabbled into their own existence, and then God chucked Chicxulub at them because they were off course?

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Monday, December 19, 2016, 18:35 (2896 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: Yes, freewheeling, but if it goes off course it is directed back to the purpose of producing humans. God is watching and in final control at all times.

dhw: This is a strange development. I ought to welcome it, because it tells us that your God gave organisms the ability you have so long denied – namely to organize their own evolution. But if freewheeling had to serve his purpose of producing humans, you have a problem, unless you truly believe that God dabbled to ensure that the pre-whale, the migrating monarch and the nest-building weaverbird came back on course to produce humans – a connection which even you find puzzling. How about the dinosaurs? Did they freewheel unprogrammed and undabbled into their own existence, and then God chucked Chicxulub at them because they were off course?

Not strange. Gerald Schroeder actually proposed your scenario about the dinos and Chicxulub! Perhaps tongue in cheek. I still think a drive to complexity explains the bush of life best of all. And not life much is off course but is providing an energy given balance of nature which is an absolute underlying requirement for life to continue its evolutionary process. Explained by my interpretation, I find nothing puzzling, so much as viewing the whale series as a waste of energy in invention. They might be needed as top predators, but sharks are really top predators and they never needed all the physiological permutations as whales did. So I'm sticking with the drive for complexity as the best theoretical explanation.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Tuesday, December 20, 2016, 12:58 (2895 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Yes, freewheeling, but if it goes off course it is directed back to the purpose of producing humans. God is watching and in final control at all times.

dhw: This is a strange development. I ought to welcome it, because it tells us that your God gave organisms the ability you have so long denied – namely to organize their own evolution. But if freewheeling had to serve his purpose of producing humans, you have a problem, unless you truly believe that God dabbled to ensure that the pre-whale, the migrating monarch and the nest-building weaverbird came back on course to produce humans – a connection which even you find puzzling […]

DAVID: […] I still think a drive to complexity explains the bush of life best of all. And not life much is off course but is providing an energy given balance of nature which is an absolute underlying requirement for life to continue its evolutionary process. Explained by my interpretation, I find nothing puzzling, so much as viewing the whale series as a waste of energy in invention. They might be needed as top predators, but sharks are really top predators and they never needed all the physiological permutations as whales did. So I'm sticking with the drive for complexity as the best theoretical explanation.

You seem suddenly to have forgotten about your “freewheeling”. That can only mean that God enabled organisms to do their own thing, which you qualified by saying that if they went off course, he directed them back to the production of humans. To avoid all this faffing about with ‘balance of nature’, which simply means life goes on with or without humans, I’ll go back to my most straightforward example, with a straightforward question and a straightforward request: do you now believe that your God allowed the weaverbird to “freewheel” in constructing its nest? If not, please explain how his direction of the weaverbird was instrumental in the production of humans.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 20, 2016, 19:24 (2895 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: You seem suddenly to have forgotten about your “freewheeling”. That can only mean that God enabled organisms to do their own thing, which you qualified by saying that if they went off course, he directed them back to the production of humans. To avoid all this faffing about with ‘balance of nature’, which simply means life goes on with or without humans, I’ll go back to my most straightforward example, with a straightforward question and a straightforward request: do you now believe that your God allowed the weaverbird to “freewheel” in constructing its nest? If not, please explain how his direction of the weaverbird was instrumental in the production of humans.

I've not forgotten freewheeling at all. I do not think the weaverbird ever invented his nest by himself. Much too complex in the knots involved, which I know you have reviewed. Young boy scouts would have trouble. Freewheeling refers to body type, not nest invention. And, of course, back to balance of nature to explain why weaverbirds exist. It took lots of feeding of organisms over lots of time to get to the point when humans could develop.

Life's biologic complexity: Automatic molecular actions

by dhw, Wednesday, December 21, 2016, 18:01 (2894 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: You seem suddenly to have forgotten about your “freewheeling”. That can only mean that God enabled organisms to do their own thing, which you qualified by saying that if they went off course, he directed them back to the production of humans. To avoid all this faffing about with ‘balance of nature’, which simply means life goes on with or without humans, I’ll go back to my most straightforward example, with a straightforward question and a straightforward request: do you now believe that your God allowed the weaverbird to “freewheel” in constructing its nest? If not, please explain how his direction of the weaverbird was instrumental in the production of humans.

DAVID: I've not forgotten freewheeling at all. I do not think the weaverbird ever invented his nest by himself. Much too complex in the knots involved, which I know you have reviewed. Young boy scouts would have trouble. Freewheeling refers to body type, not nest invention. And, of course, back to balance of nature to explain why weaverbirds exist. It took lots of feeding of organisms over lots of time to get to the point when humans could develop.

So please explain why God had to design its complex nest (as opposed to a simple nest) to enable life to go on so that humans could develop? “Freewheeling” is, of course, precisely what I am suggesting - the process whereby organisms autonomously organize their own restructuring (as well as lifestyles and wonders), in contrast to the tight control you have previously ascribed to your God. Please tell us what mechanism you think enabled some species to freewheel off course in spite of God’s tight control, and what changes you think God made to enable them to produce humans.

As for balance of nature, the latest example of dead baby turtles (thank you) illustrates precisely what it means:

'The authors have shown experimentally that smaller animals also benefit from this energy,” he says. “Sandy beaches are generally energy-poor systems, so the regular seasonal inputs of turtle eggs are important to the microscopic and macroscopic animals that live there.'”

David’s comment: A very clear example of how ecosystems work and provide food for all layers of life. Without these ecosystems food energy supplies would disappear and life would cease.

Yes indeed. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the production of humans, and if humans were to disappear from the planet, there would still be “balance of nature” so long as there is life.

DAVID: Which raises an interesting question with no answer: what did initial life eat if it was rare as it must have been? Did it live on basic elements as some bacteria do?

That sounds to me like a good answer.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 21, 2016, 21:14 (2894 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: So please explain why God had to design its complex nest (as opposed to a simple nest) to enable life to go on so that humans could develop? “Freewheeling” is, of course, precisely what I am suggesting - the process whereby organisms autonomously organize their own restructuring (as well as lifestyles and wonders), in contrast to the tight control you have previously ascribed to your God. Please tell us what mechanism you think enabled some species to freewheel off course in spite of God’s tight control, and what changes you think God made to enable them to produce humans.

My freewheeling mechanism is a theoretical form of an inventive mechanism which we have discussed as a possibility to explain the bush of life. The bush supplies the necessary food source for life to continue until humans appeared. Remember evolution took about 3.6 billion years to reach the human form. Evolution never went off course. Humans are here.


dhw: As for balance of nature, the latest example of dead baby turtles (thank you) illustrates precisely what it means:

'The authors have shown experimentally that smaller animals also benefit from this energy,” he says. “Sandy beaches are generally energy-poor systems, so the regular seasonal inputs of turtle eggs are important to the microscopic and macroscopic animals that live there.'”

David’s comment: A very clear example of how ecosystems work and provide food for all layers of life. Without these ecosystems food energy supplies would disappear and life would cease.

dhw: Yes indeed. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the production of humans, and if humans were to disappear from the planet, there would still be “balance of nature” so long as there is life.

Already explained. Evolution takes a long time to reach humans. Balance of nature is needed all the time for food energy, humans or no humans, but humans arrived and needed the energy for evolution to get here. Your point is totally off the point.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Thursday, December 22, 2016, 13:21 (2893 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: So please explain why God had to design its complex nest (as opposed to a simple nest) to enable life to go on so that humans could develop? “Freewheeling” is, of course, precisely what I am suggesting - the process whereby organisms autonomously organize their own restructuring (as well as lifestyles and wonders), in contrast to the tight control you have previously ascribed to your God. Please tell us what mechanism you think enabled some species to freewheel off course in spite of God’s tight control, and what changes you think God made to enable them to produce humans.

DAVID: My freewheeling mechanism is a theoretical form of an inventive mechanism which we have discussed as a possibility to explain the bush of life.

Freewheeling (a new term in our discussions) can only mean that organisms are able to organize their own evolution (and lifestyles and wonders) independently of any preprogramming, and this can only happen if they have the “intelligence” to work out their own ways of coping with or exploiting the environment. This autonomous inventive mechanism (my term for it) does indeed explain the bush of life, still allowing for the possibility of a God who dabbles when he wants to.

DAVID: The bush supplies the necessary food source for life to continue until humans appeared. Remember evolution took about 3.6 billion years to reach the human form. Evolution never went off course. Humans are here.

It was you who used the term “off course”: “…if it goes off course it is directed back to the purpose of producing humans.” The bush supplies the necessary food source for life to continue. This is true, and would still be true if there were no humans.

David’s comment (re dead baby turtles): A very clear example of how ecosystems work and provide food for all layers of life. Without these ecosystems food energy supplies would disappear and life would cease.
dhw: Yes indeed. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the production of humans, and if humans were to disappear from the planet, there would still be “balance of nature” so long as there is life.
DAVID: Already explained. Evolution takes a long time to reach humans. Balance of nature is needed all the time for food energy, humans or no humans, but humans arrived and needed the energy for evolution to get here. Your point is totally off the point.

Humans arrived, and so did the whale and the weaverbird's nest and the monarch butterfly. You think your God dabbled to get to all of them, but once again your “balance of nature” means nothing more than the fact that life continues, with or without humans. The fact that we appeared after a long time instead of a short time (though all is relative!)does not mean that all forms of life, lifestyles and natural wonders were specially designed (and then 99% destroyed) for the sake of continuing life in order to produce humans.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 22, 2016, 16:08 (2893 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: The bush supplies the necessary food source for life to continue until humans appeared. Remember evolution took about 3.6 billion years to reach the human form. Evolution never went off course. Humans are here.

dhw: It was you who used the term “off course”: “…if it goes off course it is directed back to the purpose of producing humans.” The bush supplies the necessary food source for life to continue. This is true, and would still be true if there were no humans.

Ah, here you place the emphasis in the right place. Balance of nature is energy supply so evolution can continue for billions of years, humans or not.


dhw: Humans arrived, and so did the whale and the weaverbird's nest and the monarch butterfly. You think your God dabbled to get to all of them, but once again your “balance of nature” means nothing more than the fact that life continues, with or without humans. The fact that we appeared after a long time instead of a short time (though all is relative!)does not mean that all forms of life, lifestyles and natural wonders were specially designed (and then 99% destroyed) for the sake of continuing life in order to produce humans.

We've got the food issue settled. Why it took so long and evolution had to occur is what history tells us. God did not use immediate creation, although religions think He could have. Perhaps this is the only way for human creation to happen.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Friday, December 23, 2016, 12:24 (2892 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID (under “big brain”): Whales came into existence under God's guidance. That is all I really believe. The rest is theory. I have repeated over and over God used an evolutionary process so pre-whales and pre-humans had to occur first.
dhw: But you cannot explain WHY your God specially designed pre-whales and pre-homos in order to produce sapiens. That is the part of your theory I am questioning. Previously you have admitted that you are puzzled by it. So why not consider the possibility that there is a less puzzling explanation: namely, that he did not specially design them, but that evolution “freewheeled” (your very own expression), apart from when he might occasionally have dabbled? Then the puzzle disappears.
DAVID: You don't like my answer of balance of nature in which the major thrust is the need for energy/food for the evolutionary organisms to cover 3.6 billion years of time for life to survive. But that is perfectly logical whether humans arrive or not, evolution goes on.

I do like this answer, although it has nothing to do with the puzzle I have outlined above. Indeed, it is an observation which I have repeatedly made myself and which is well worth repeating, as in the next exchange.

DAVID: The bush supplies the necessary food source for life to continue until humans appeared. Remember evolution took about 3.6 billion years to reach the human form. Evolution never went off course. Humans are here.
dhw: It was you who used the term “off course”: “…if it goes off course it is directed back to the purpose of producing humans.” The bush supplies the necessary food source for life to continue. This is true, and would still be true if there were no humans.
DAVID: Ah, here you place the emphasis in the right place. Balance of nature is energy supply so evolution can continue for billions of years, humans or not.

Yes indeed. Life needs energy, and life has gone on for billions of years, irrespective of humans. So let’s forget about your God specially designing whales and nests and migratory lifestyles to keep life going for the sake of producing humans, and let’s forget about “off course” as if God started out with one intention in mind. Thank you for finally abandoning all attempts to link “balance of nature” with special design and the arrival of humans.

dhw: […] The fact that we appeared after a long time instead of a short time (though all is relative!) does not mean that all forms of life, lifestyles and natural wonders were specially designed (and then 99% destroyed) for the sake of continuing life in order to produce humans.
DAVID: We've got the food issue settled. Why it took so long and evolution had to occur is what history tells us. God did not use immediate creation, although religions think He could have. Perhaps this is the only way for human creation to happen.

Yes, we’ve settled the food issue, which has nothing to do with the production of humans. And yes, history tells us that evolution occurred (but not that it had to occur). And if God exists, then clearly he must have set the process of evolution in motion. And the higgledy-piggledy bush suggests that, apart from the occasional dabble, he may well have allowed it to “freewheel” – an expression introduced by my good friend David Turell, to replace my own rather more cumbersome expression of “use their (perhaps God-given) autonomous inventive mechanism”. Or (theistic alternatives) he may simply have kept experimenting, or humans were an afterthought. Whichever way, the process of evolution eventually eliminated 99% of species but produced humans, and whales, and the duckbilled platypus, and the monarch butterfly, and the weaverbird’s nest. I hope that’s a fair summary.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Friday, December 23, 2016, 18:13 (2892 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID (under “big brain”): Whales came into existence under God's guidance. That is all I really believe. The rest is theory. I have repeated over and over God used an evolutionary process so pre-whales and pre-humans had to occur first.
dhw: But you cannot explain WHY your God specially designed pre-whales and pre-homos in order to produce sapiens. That is the part of your theory I am questioning.

> DAVID: You don't like my answer of balance of nature in which the major thrust is the need for energy/food for the evolutionary organisms to cover 3.6 billion years of time for life to survive. But that is perfectly logical whether humans arrive or not, evolution goes on.


dhw: I do like this answer, although it has nothing to do with the puzzle I have outlined above. Indeed, it is an observation which I have repeatedly made myself and which is well worth repeating, as in the next exchange.

It has everything to do with the argument you outlined. You refuse to see real purpose in evolution that humans are the end point. You do admit that purpose is possible. When seen in that lens, balance of nature is vital to cover the time to reach humans. that is my lens and interpretation.

DAVID: Ah, here you place the emphasis in the right place. Balance of nature is energy supply so evolution can continue for billions of years, humans or not.

dhw: Yes indeed. Life needs energy, and life has gone on for billions of years, irrespective of humans. So let’s forget about your God specially designing whales and nests and migratory lifestyles to keep life going for the sake of producing humans, and let’s forget about “off course” as if God started out with one intention in mind. Thank you for finally abandoning all attempts to link “balance of nature” with special design and the arrival of humans.

I've not abandoned the link at all. It is you who is not willing to make the link from you agnostic position. You can't see purpose and I can. At least you have finally recognize balance for what it is, necessary food supply, supported by eco-niches requiring top predators. that makes the bush of life.


dhw: […] The fact that we appeared after a long time instead of a short time (though all is relative!) does not mean that all forms of life, lifestyles and natural wonders were specially designed (and then 99% destroyed) for the sake of continuing life in order to produce humans.
DAVID: We've got the food issue settled. Why it took so long and evolution had to occur is what history tells us. God did not use immediate creation, although religions think He could have. Perhaps this is the only way for human creation to happen.

dhw: Yes, we’ve settled the food issue, which has nothing to do with the production of humans. And yes, history tells us that evolution occurred (but not that it had to occur). And if God exists, then clearly he must have set the process of evolution in motion. And the higgledy-piggledy bush suggests that, apart from the occasional dabble, he may well have allowed it to “freewheel” – an expression introduced by my good friend David Turell, to replace my own rather more cumbersome expression of “use their (perhaps God-given) autonomous inventive mechanism”. Or (theistic alternatives) he may simply have kept experimenting, or humans were an afterthought. Whichever way, the process of evolution eventually eliminated 99% of species but produced humans, and whales, and the duckbilled platypus, and the monarch butterfly, and the weaverbird’s nest. I hope that’s a fair summary.

Fair summary, but the production of humans has everything to do with a continuing supply of food if you see humans as the end point of the purpose for evolution, as I do. Balance of nature obviously remains necessary even after humans arrived.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Saturday, December 24, 2016, 12:41 (2891 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Thank you for finally abandoning all attempts to link “balance of nature” with special design and the arrival of humans.

DAVID: I've not abandoned the link at all. It is you who is not willing to make the link from you agnostic position. You can't see purpose and I can. At least you have finally recognize balance for what it is, necessary food supply, supported by eco-niches requiring top predators. that makes the bush of life.

Nothing to do with my agnostic position, and nothing to do with not seeing purpose. The balance of nature, i.e. the supply of food for whatever creatures happen to exist at any time, does not require your God’s special design of whales, the monarch butterfly’s migratory lifestyle, or the natural wonder of the weaverbird’s nest. Life would have gone on just the same if your God had given them the means of designing their own evolution, lifestyle and home. This would explain the higgledy-piggledy bush of life, and it would remove the great gulf in your hypothesis between his desire to produce humans and his special design of organisms that have nothing to do with the production of humans. His purpose may have been to create the fascinating spectacle of life in all its diversity – and it may be that humans are a culmination of the process, perhaps as a result of his experimenting, or as an afterthought after he had lost interest in 99% of the species resulting from the process he had set in motion. Even as an agnostic, I have as much right as you to try and fit life’s history and a possible God’s purpose together in order to find a coherent pattern. I wish that, unlike W.C. Fields, you’d give a sucker an even break!:-)

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 24, 2016, 18:17 (2891 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: I've not abandoned the link at all. It is you who is not willing to make the link from you agnostic position. You can't see purpose and I can. At least you have finally recognize balance for what it is, necessary food supply, supported by eco-niches requiring top predators. that makes the bush of life.

dhw: Nothing to do with my agnostic position, and nothing to do with not seeing purpose. The balance of nature, i.e. the supply of food for whatever creatures happen to exist at any time, does not require your God’s special design of whales, the monarch butterfly’s migratory lifestyle, or the natural wonder of the weaverbird’s nest.

You are looking at the balance of nature from the outside. Just as 'logic' removed wolves from Yellowstone and upset the balance of nature, returning them, after research showed they were needed, rebalanced it illustrates the futility of your position. Research may well show why whales, monarch migration, and weaverbird nests are necessary. The need for top predators is a recent discovery. The discovery of the efficiency of the backward human retina is a recent finding. That God is not a logical designer is atheistic thinking, nothing more. Get back on your fence.

dhw: Life would have gone on just the same if your God had given them the means of designing their own evolution, lifestyle and home. This would explain the higgledy-piggledy bush of life, and it would remove the great gulf in your hypothesis between his desire to produce humans and his special design of organisms that have nothing to do with the production of humans.

Again you are making an atheistic assumption. I've admitted they may have an inventive mechanism, but you won't let me have my God watch it for tight control.

dhw: His purpose may have been to create the fascinating spectacle of life in all its diversity – and it may be that humans are a culmination of the process, perhaps as a result of his experimenting, or as an afterthought after he had lost interest in 99% of the species resulting from the process he had set in motion.

Most of the 99% weren't advanced enough to continue living as more complex life forms arrived. And how much room is there on Earth? Got to make room for new species, especially over 7 billion humans.

dhw: Even as an agnostic, I have as much right as you to try and fit life’s history and a possible God’s purpose together in order to find a coherent pattern. I wish that, unlike W.C. Fields, you’d give a sucker an even break!:-)

Showing your age with W.C Fields. He was funny. Above I've shown you are not coherent in guessing at logical design. Research keeps finding atheistic doubts wrong about designs in nature.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Tuesday, December 27, 2016, 13:02 (2888 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I've not abandoned the link at all. It is you who is not willing to make the link from you agnostic position. You can't see purpose and I can. At least you have finally recognize balance for what it is, necessary food supply, supported by eco-niches requiring top predators. that makes the bush of life.
dhw: Nothing to do with my agnostic position, and nothing to do with not seeing purpose. The balance of nature, i.e. the supply of food for whatever creatures happen to exist at any time, does not require your God’s special design of whales, the monarch butterfly’s migratory lifestyle, or the natural wonder of the weaverbird’s nest.
DAVID: You are looking at the balance of nature from the outside. Just as 'logic' removed wolves from Yellowstone and upset the balance of nature, returning them, after research showed they were needed, rebalanced it illustrates the futility of your position.

You are once again talking as if there were a right balance and a wrong balance, even though at other times you have agreed that so long as there is ANY form of life, that = balance of nature. This has always varied throughout life’s history, and it has always been in favour of some and against others.

DAVID: Research may well show why whales, monarch migration, and weaverbird nests are necessary. […]

Necessary for what? It is my sincere belief that if the weaverbird - whose nest you think was specially designed by your God to balance nature - died out or suddenly designed a very simple nest for itself, life would still go on. And bearing in mind your anthropocentric interpretation of your God’s purpose in “guiding” evolution, I sincerely believe humans would also survive without the weaverbird’s nest. Don't you?

DAVID: That God is not a logical designer is atheistic thinking, nothing more…

Please explain why the hypothesis of a possible God who may have designed an autonomous, inventive mechanism to produce a spectacle of diverse living organisms, extant and extinct, is (a) illogical, and (b) atheistic.

dhw: Life would have gone on just the same if your God had given them the means of designing their own evolution, lifestyle and home. This would explain the higgledy-piggledy bush of life, and it would remove the great gulf in your hypothesis between his desire to produce humans and his special design of organisms that have nothing to do with the production of humans.
DAVID: Again you are making an atheistic assumption. I've admitted they may have an inventive mechanism, but you won't let me have my God watch it for tight control.

Once again, as an interpretation of a possible God’s possible mode of running evolution, my hypothesis is in no way atheistic. Your inventive mechanism is always “guided”. What does “watch it for tight control” mean? In my theistic mode, I have made allowance for the occasional dabble, but your “tight control” removes the all-important autonomy, thereby excluding the “freewheeling” which you have admitted and then omitted, since it is the exact opposite of tight control.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 27, 2016, 18:21 (2888 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: You are looking at the balance of nature from the outside. Just as 'logic' removed wolves from Yellowstone and upset the balance of nature, returning them, after research showed they were needed, rebalanced it illustrates the futility of your position.

dhw: You are once again talking as if there were a right balance and a wrong balance, even though at other times you have agreed that so long as there is ANY form of life, that = balance of nature. This has always varied throughout life’s history, and it has always been in favour of some and against others.

Of course nature balances with whatever species are available, but the Yellowstone/wolf story shows how the wrong balance can be created, and it depends upon which top predator is there. Humans, without the right research, can make the wrong judgments and upset the proper balances. That is what I am describing and previously mentioned in Australia.


DAVID: Research may well show why whales, monarch migration, and weaverbird nests are necessary. […]

dhw: Necessary for what? It is my sincere belief that if the weaverbird - whose nest you think was specially designed by your God to balance nature - died out or suddenly designed a very simple nest for itself, life would still go on. And bearing in mind your anthropocentric interpretation of your God’s purpose in “guiding” evolution, I sincerely believe humans would also survive without the weaverbird’s nest. Don't you?

That is your belief. we don't knows that as factual. I believe that every organism is there for a reason, not necessarily apparent to us.


DAVID: That God is not a logical designer is atheistic thinking, nothing more…

dhw: Please explain why the hypothesis of a possible God who may have designed an autonomous, inventive mechanism to produce a spectacle of diverse living organisms, extant and extinct, is (a) illogical, and (b) atheistic.

You missed my point. I am discussing God as a perfect designer, with the human retina in mind. It is atheists who complain about it, while science shows how perfect it is.


DAVID: Again you are making an atheistic assumption. I've admitted they may have an inventive mechanism, but you won't let me have my God watch it for tight control.

dhw: Once again, as an interpretation of a possible God’s possible mode of running evolution, my hypothesis is in no way atheistic. Your inventive mechanism is always “guided”. What does “watch it for tight control” mean? In my theistic mode, I have made allowance for the occasional dabble, but your “tight control” removes the all-important autonomy, thereby excluding the “freewheeling” which you have admitted and then omitted, since it is the exact opposite of tight control.

Our concepts disagree as usual. I see evolution as directional toward increased complexity at all times. If organisms are free-wheeling in producing new complexity, if that drifts off course toward humans, God will guide it back. Inventivenesds and guided all at the same time.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Wednesday, December 28, 2016, 12:31 (2887 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: You are once again talking as if there were a right balance and a wrong balance, even though at other times you have agreed that so long as there is ANY form of life, that = balance of nature. This has always varied throughout life’s history, and it has always been in favour of some and against others.
DAVID: Of course nature balances with whatever species are available, but the Yellowstone/wolf story shows how the wrong balance can be created, and it depends upon which top predator is there. Humans, without the right research, can make the wrong judgments and upset the proper balances. That is what I am describing and previously mentioned in Australia.

Once again, what is your criterion for right and wrong? (Please answer.) If it’s that life should continue, any old balance will do. If it’s what is good for individual species, then history reveals a balance that was 99% wrong. If it’s what is good for humans, then only humans count. See below for the implications of this.

DAVID: Research may well show why whales, monarch migration, and weaverbird nests are necessary. […]
dhw: Necessary for what? […] I sincerely believe humans would also survive without the weaverbird’s nest. Don't you?
DAVID: That is your belief. we don't know that as factual. I believe that every organism is there for a reason, not necessarily apparent to us.

I know this is your belief, which is why I pick on the weaverbird’s nest to show how unreasonable it is. So do you honestly believe that life would end or humans would perish without the nest?

DAVID: That God is not a logical designer is atheistic thinking, nothing more…
dhw: Please explain why the hypothesis of a possible God who may have designed an autonomous, inventive mechanism to produce a spectacle of diverse living organisms, extant and extinct, is (a) illogical, and (b) atheistic.
DAVID: You missed my point. I am discussing God as a perfect designer, with the human retina in mind. It is atheists who complain about it, while science shows how perfect it is.

We were discussing whales, monarchs and the weaverbird's nest in the context of my possibly God-given autonomous inventive mechanism hypothesis, and I don’t see how atheists complaining about the retina make my hypothesis illogical and atheistic.

DAVID: […] I've admitted they may have an inventive mechanism, but you won't let me have my God watch it for tight control.
dhw: Your inventive mechanism is always “guided”. What does “watch it for tight control” mean? In my theistic mode, I have made allowance for the occasional dabble, but your “tight control” removes the all-important autonomy, thereby excluding the “freewheeling” which you have admitted and then omitted, since it is the exact opposite of tight control.
DAVID: Our concepts disagree as usual. I see evolution as directional toward increased complexity at all times. If organisms are free-wheeling in producing new complexity, if that drifts off course toward humans, God will guide it back. Inventiveness and guided all at the same time.

I have no idea, and nor do you, how the weaverbird’s nest can be on course towards humans, and yet you insist that God had to guide it. By freewheeling, I understand that organisms organize their own evolution, lifestyle and wonders, which means they have an AUTONOMOUS inventive mechanism. To be precise, the weaverbird designed its own nest. Perhaps you should tell us next what you understand by freewheeling.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 28, 2016, 19:23 (2887 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: Once again, what is your criterion for right and wrong? (Please answer.) If it’s that life should continue, any old balance will do. If it’s what is good for individual species, then history reveals a balance that was 99% wrong.

What I am presenting as wrong is when humans arrive in a new area of the Earth and change the balance from the original form, i.e., Australia, Yellowstone, New Zealand as prime examples. In each case the introduction of improper new species or the destruction of an existing species made an ecological mess of things. What was naturally wrong for 99% of extinct species was a change in ecosystem balances they could not adapt to, which is a part of the evolutionary spectrum of activity, not a fault of the system. We've agreed the balanced is in constant change throughout history. Please note that I am discussing the current balances only (!) which have only two important attributes: they can easily be messed up by humans, and natures balance is important as a food supply.

DAVID: Research may well show why whales, monarch migration, and weaverbird nests are necessary.
dhw: Necessary for what? […] I sincerely believe humans would also survive without the weaverbird’s nest. Don't you?

DAVID: That is your belief. we don't know that as factual. I believe that every organism is there for a reason, not necessarily apparent to us.


dhw: I know this is your belief, which is why I pick on the weaverbird’s nest to show how unreasonable it is. So do you honestly believe that life would end or humans would perish without the nest?

Of course not. But there may be long term effects we cannot understand now.


DAVID: You missed my point. I am discussing God as a perfect designer, with the human retina in mind. It is atheists who complain about it, while science shows how perfect it is.

dhw:We were discussing whales, monarchs and the weaverbird's nest in the context of my possibly God-given autonomous inventive mechanism hypothesis, and I don’t see how atheists complaining about the retina make my hypothesis illogical and atheistic.

Because whatever is complex in current evolution must have God's input, as in the retina. Not ever autonomous, semi-autonomous. See my entry today about the human living complexity.

DAVID: Our concepts disagree as usual. I see evolution as directional toward increased complexity at all times. If organisms are free-wheeling in producing new complexity, if that drifts off course toward humans, God will guide it back. Inventiveness and guided all at the same time.

I have no idea, and nor do you, how the weaverbird’s nest can be on course towards humans, and yet you insist that God had to guide it. By freewheeling, I understand that organisms organize their own evolution, lifestyle and wonders, which means they have an AUTONOMOUS inventive mechanism. To be precise, the weaverbird designed its own nest. Perhaps you should tell us next what you understand by freewheeling.

Free-wheeling means the organisms are possibly free to invent and try out modifications, perhaps though epigenetic mechanisms, but God reviews and exerts final design formation. The pattern of evolution is to become more and more complex finally arriving at humans.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Thursday, December 29, 2016, 13:29 (2886 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Once again, what is your criterion for right and wrong? (Please answer.) If it’s that life should continue, any old balance will do. If it’s what is good for individual species, then history reveals a balance that was 99% wrong.
DAVID: What I am presenting as wrong is when humans arrive in a new area of the Earth and change the balance from the original form, i.e., Australia, Yellowstone, New Zealand as prime examples. In each case the introduction of improper new species or the destruction of an existing species made an ecological mess of things. What was naturally wrong for 99% of extinct species was a change in ecosystem balances they could not adapt to, which is a part of the evolutionary spectrum of activity, not a fault of the system. We've agreed the balanced is in constant change throughout history. Please note that I am discussing the current balances only (!) which have only two important attributes: they can easily be messed up by humans, and natures balance is important as a food supply.

I join with you in condemning humans for the ecological havoc they are causing to our planet. A totally different subject from “balance of nature” as your God’s purpose in designing all the evolutionary innovations, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct so that life could go on until humans arrived. Your argument is relevant only to what has happened AFTER humans arrived. Thank you for making that clear.

DAVID: Research may well show why whales, monarch migration, and weaverbird nests are necessary.
dhw: Necessary for what? […] I sincerely believe humans would also survive without the weaverbird’s nest. Don't you?
DAVID: That is your belief. we don't know that as factual. I believe that every organism is there for a reason, not necessarily apparent to us.
dhw: I know this is your belief, which is why I pick on the weaverbird’s nest to show how unreasonable it is. So do you honestly believe that life would end or humans would perish without the nest?
DAVID: Of course not. But there may be long term effects we cannot understand now.

Since you believe God deliberately designed the nest, and since you are constantly criticizing me for not seeking purpose, and since you do not have a clue what your God’s purpose might have been, perhaps you might just possibly consider the option that God did NOT design the nest but endowed the bird with the intelligence to do its own designing for its own purpose, as do all nest-building birds and all home-building animals, including humans.

DAVID: You missed my point. I am discussing God as a perfect designer, with the human retina in mind. It is atheists who complain about it, while science shows how perfect it is.
dhw:We were discussing whales, monarchs and the weaverbird's nest in the context of my possibly God-given autonomous inventive mechanism hypothesis, and I don’t see how atheists complaining about the retina make my hypothesis illogical and atheistic.
DAVID: Because whatever is complex in current evolution must have God's input, as in the retina. Not ever autonomous, semi-autonomous. See my entry today about the human living complexity.

An admirable article, but you are now repeating your disbelief in an autonomous inventive mechanism. Your disbelief in a possibly God-given autonomous inventive mechanism does not make the hypothesis illogical or atheistic.

DAVID: …If organisms are free-wheeling in producing new complexity, if that drifts off course toward humans, God will guide it back. Inventiveness and guided all at the same time.
Dhw: By freewheeling, I understand that organisms organize their own evolution, lifestyle and wonders, which means they have an AUTONOMOUS inventive mechanism. To be precise, the weaverbird designed its own nest. Perhaps you should tell us next what you understand by freewheeling.
DAVID: Free-wheeling means the organisms are possibly free to invent and try out modifications, perhaps though epigenetic mechanisms, but God reviews and exerts final design formation. […]

Being possibly free to do their own inventing and trying out would require the means to do their own inventing and trying out. That freedom would therefore require an autonomous inventive mechanism, because if it was not autonomous, it would not be free. If God exists, he can dabble, which I take it is what you mean by “exerts final design formation”. How much he has dabbled throughout the history of evolution can only be a matter of conjecture, but if he preprogrammed or dabbled every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder you can think of, you leave the freewheeling inventive mechanism devoid of freedom and devoid of inventiveness. Either the mechanism is free and therefore autonomous (UNTIL it is dabbled with) or it is preprogrammed. “Semi-autonomous” is sheer weasel.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 29, 2016, 18:54 (2886 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I know this is your belief, which is why I pick on the weaverbird’s nest to show how unreasonable it is. So do you honestly believe that life would end or humans would perish without the nest?

DAVID: Of course not. But there may be long term effects we cannot understand now.

dhw: Since you believe God deliberately designed the nest, and since you are constantly criticizing me for not seeking purpose, and since you do not have a clue what your God’s purpose might have been, perhaps you might just possibly consider the option that God did NOT design the nest but endowed the bird with the intelligence to do its own designing for its own purpose, as do all nest-building birds and all home-building animals, including humans.

We both admit we have no idea why the weaverbird nest is so complex, but it is. However its complexity would test boy scout's skill in knots. Now you are suggesting God gave the bird, and you've given the idea before, the knowledge to create the nest. Probably in a layer of its genome? That type of 'intelligence' to automatically create the nest is really instructions from God to follow a plan only a mind could create. Just as in bacteria we see intelligent reactions to stimuli which must simply be implanted instructions from God. Same application of theory.

dhw: An admirable article, but you are now repeating your disbelief in an autonomous inventive mechanism. Your disbelief in a possibly God-given autonomous inventive mechanism does not make the hypothesis illogical or atheistic.

You again skip the point. Atheists like to point out the human retina as illogical, when research shows it is a wondrous design. I still maintain God is behind all complex designs. A semi-autonomous inventive mechanism for complex advances may exist, but it is highly theoretical, with no evidentiary support.

DAVID: Free-wheeling means the organisms are possibly free to invent and try out modifications, perhaps though epigenetic mechanisms, but God reviews and exerts final design formation. […]

dhw: Being possibly free to do their own inventing and trying out would require the means to do their own inventing and trying out. That freedom would therefore require an autonomous inventive mechanism, because if it was not autonomous, it would not be free. If God exists, he can dabble, which I take it is what you mean by “exerts final design formation”. How much he has dabbled throughout the history of evolution can only be a matter of conjecture, but if he preprogrammed or dabbled every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder you can think of, you leave the freewheeling inventive mechanism devoid of freedom and devoid of inventiveness. Either the mechanism is free and therefore autonomous (UNTIL it is dabbled with) or it is preprogrammed. “Semi-autonomous” is sheer weasel.

Since I think God is in full control, there is no weaseling, just theorizing what organisms might try on their own.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Friday, December 30, 2016, 13:05 (2885 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: We both admit we have no idea why the weaverbird nest is so complex, but it is. However its complexity would test boy scout's skill in knots. Now you are suggesting God gave the bird, and you've given the idea before, the knowledge to create the nest. Probably in a layer of its genome? That type of 'intelligence' to automatically create the nest is really instructions from God to follow a plan only a mind could create. Just as in bacteria we see intelligent reactions to stimuli which must simply be implanted instructions from God. Same application of theory.

For several years now, following the premise of cellular intelligence, I have been suggesting (theistic version) that your God may have given cells/cell communities an autonomous inventive mechanism. The weaverbird’s nest is my favourite example, because it has no conceivable link to the production of humans, which according to you was God’s motive for the evolutionary bush. You insist that only God could design the nest, though you don’t know why he did so. You also insist that God programmed the first cells with solutions to every problem bacteria might face for the rest of time, along with every non-dabbled innovation, lifestyle and wonder you can think of. I find this somewhat less convincing as a hypothesis than my own. A few days ago, however, you actually condemned my hypothesis as illogical and atheistic, and out of the blue introduced the atheistic argument that the human retina is illogical.

DAVID: Atheists like to point out the human retina as illogical, when research shows it is a wondrous design. I still maintain God is behind all complex designs. A semi-autonomous inventive mechanism for complex advances may exist, but it is highly theoretical, with no evidentiary support.

The unjustified atheistic criticism of the human retina does not make my hypothesis illogical or atheistic. Meanwhile, the hypothesis that your God personally designed or preprogrammed the first cells with every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder in life’s history is highly theoretical, with no evidentiary support.

DAVID: Free-wheeling means the organisms are possibly free to invent and try out modifications, perhaps though epigenetic mechanisms, but God reviews and exerts final design formation. […]
dhw: Being possibly free to do their own inventing and trying out would require the means to do their own inventing and trying out. That freedom would therefore require an autonomous inventive mechanism, because if it was not autonomous, it would not be free. […] Either the mechanism is free and therefore autonomous (UNTIL it is dabbled with) or it is preprogrammed. “Semi-autonomous” is sheer weasel.

DAVID: Since I think God is in full control, there is no weaseling, just theorizing what organisms might try on their own.

Do please theorize further. How do organisms “freewheel” or try things on their own if they not have a mechanism that enables them to “freewheel” or try things on their own?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 31, 2016, 00:59 (2885 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: A few days ago, however, you actually condemned my hypothesis as illogical and atheistic, and out of the blue introduced the atheistic argument that the human retina is illogical.

We have just so much evidence from the studies of evolution and the resultant bush of life. What is apparent is that even a single living cell is highly complex. It is not logical that it developed from a series of contingent chance events. What is left in design. Logically where does complex design come from? Mental planning. That is what the retina represents. What the retina argument implies is that it is not rational to deny design created life. What it all goes back to is first cause which has to be a designer. The atheists admit life looks completely like it was designed, but there cannot be a designer according to their beliefs. There are only two choices, chance or design. Tehre is no third way.


DAVID: Atheists like to point out the human retina as illogical, when research shows it is a wondrous design. I still maintain God is behind all complex designs. A semi-autonomous inventive mechanism for complex advances may exist, but it is highly theoretical, with no evidentiary support.

dhw: The unjustified atheistic criticism of the human retina does not make my hypothesis illogical or atheistic. Meanwhile, the hypothesis that your God personally designed or preprogrammed the first cells with every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder in life’s history is highly theoretical, with no evidentiary support.

No direct evidence, only logic beyond a reasonable doubt.


DAVID: Free-wheeling means the organisms are possibly free to invent and try out modifications, perhaps though epigenetic mechanisms, but God reviews and exerts final design formation.

dhw: Being possibly free to do their own inventing and trying out would require the means to do their own inventing and trying out. That freedom would therefore require an autonomous inventive mechanism, because if it was not autonomous, it would not be free. […] Either the mechanism is free and therefore autonomous (UNTIL it is dabbled with) or it is preprogrammed. “Semi-autonomous” is sheer weasel.

DAVID: Since I think God is in full control, there is no weaseling, just theorizing what organisms might try on their own.

dhw: Do please theorize further. How do organisms “freewheel” or try things on their own if they not have a mechanism that enables them to “freewheel” or try things on their own?

But I have suggested that they might have an epigenetic free-wheeling mechanism. Something drives the increasing complexity we see in advancing evolving life.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Saturday, December 31, 2016, 12:47 (2884 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: A few days ago, however, you actually condemned my hypothesis as illogical and atheistic, and out of the blue introduced the atheistic argument that the human retina is illogical.
DAVID: We have just so much evidence from the studies of evolution and the resultant bush of life. What is apparent is that even a single living cell is highly complex. It is not logical that it developed from a series of contingent chance events. What is left in design. Logically where does complex design come from? Mental planning. That is what the retina represents. What the retina argument implies is that it is not rational to deny design created life. What it all goes back to is first cause which has to be a designer. The atheists admit life looks completely like it was designed, but there cannot be a designer according to their beliefs. There are only two choices, chance or design. There is no third way.

An excellent summary of the case for design, and a major reason why I am not an atheist. However, if your God endowed living cells with intelligence, as some scientists claim, and if this intelligence enabled cells/cell communities to do their own designing, we have a logical, theistic explanation for the history of life as we know it. The fact that you reject the hypothesis does not make it illogical or atheistic, which was the point I objected to.

DAVID: A semi-autonomous inventive mechanism for complex advances may exist, but it is highly theoretical, with no evidentiary support.
dhw: …the hypothesis that your God personally designed or preprogrammed the first cells with every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder in life’s history is highly theoretical, with no evidentiary support.
DAVID: No direct evidence, only logic beyond a reasonable doubt.

What constitutes “reasonable” is subjective. You would say the same to Shapiro, who clearly considers cellular intelligence to be beyond any reasonable doubt (your scepticism being due to "large organisms chauvinism").

Dhw: How do organisms “freewheel” or try things on their own if they do not have a mechanism that enables them to “freewheel” or try things on their own?
DAVID: But I have suggested that they might have an epigenetic free-wheeling mechanism. Something drives the increasing complexity we see in advancing evolving life.

No evolutionist would disagree that something drives the increasing complexity from single celled organisms such as bacteria to multicellular organisms such as the whale, the duckbilled platypus and ourselves. The whole discussion concerns the nature of the “something”. You insist that your so-called “freewheeling” mechanism is guided and God is always in control. That is not freewheeling. Either the mechanism can act independently or it can’t. “Epigenetic” simply relates to the interplay between genes and environment and tells us nothing about whether evolutionary advancement results from divine programming/dabbling or from an AUTONOMOUS/ ”freewheeling” inventive mechanism possibly designed by a possible God. The latter offers a perfectly logical explanation for the higgledy-piggledy history of life as we know it, and dispenses with reliance on chance factors other than those relating to environmental change. And it is not atheistic.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 31, 2016, 15:48 (2884 days ago) @ dhw

David: There are only two choices, chance or design. There is no third way.[/i]

An excellent summary of the case for design, and a major reason why I am not an atheist. However, if your God endowed living cells with intelligence, as some scientists claim, and if this intelligence enabled cells/cell communities to do their own designing, we have a logical, theistic explanation for the history of life as we know it. The fact that you reject the hypothesis does not make it illogical or atheistic, which was the point I objected to.

I strongly object to your theory, as usual, since I feel any advanced designing requires a conscious mind, as in proceeding from early whale one to early whale two, with tremendous physiological changes from one to the other.

DAVID: But I have suggested that they might have an epigenetic free-wheeling mechanism. Something drives the increasing complexity we see in advancing evolving life.

dhw: No evolutionist would disagree that something drives the increasing complexity from single celled organisms such as bacteria to multicellular organisms such as the whale, the duckbilled platypus and ourselves. The whole discussion concerns the nature of the “something”. You insist that your so-called “freewheeling” mechanism is guided and God is always in control. That is not freewheeling. Either the mechanism can act independently or it can’t.

I've not been clear, based on your comment. The freewheeling concept is to be seen stepwise. First, the organisms have a mechanism that allows them to try something (freewheeling), but then, secondly, God steps in and alters the change to a direction of evolution He likes.

dhw: “Epigenetic” simply relates to the interplay between genes and environment and tells us nothing about whether evolutionary advancement results from divine programming/dabbling or from an AUTONOMOUS/ ”freewheeling” inventive mechanism possibly designed by a possible God. The latter offers a perfectly logical explanation for the higgledy-piggledy history of life as we know it, and dispenses with reliance on chance factors other than those relating to environmental change. And it is not atheistic.

I used 'epigenetic' in the loose sense that any alteration of the genome is epigenetic. Freewheeling in my sense is explained above.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Sunday, January 01, 2017, 11:36 (2883 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I strongly object to your theory, as usual, since I feel any advanced designing requires a conscious mind, as in proceeding from early whale one to early whale two, with tremendous physiological changes from one to the other.

I agree that advanced designing requires a conscious mind (or cooperating minds), if by “conscious” you mean sentient, intelligent, information-processing, communicative, cooperative, decision-making (but not to be equated with the self-awareness of humans). That is the whole point of my hypothesis.

dhw: You insist that your so-called “freewheeling” mechanism is guided and God is always in control. That is not freewheeling. Either the mechanism can act independently or it can’t.

DAVID: I've not been clear, based on your comment. The freewheeling concept is to be seen stepwise. First, the organisms have a mechanism that allows them to try something (freewheeling), but then, secondly, God steps in and alters the change to a direction of evolution He likes.

So what is it you strongly object to? On 29 December I wrote: “Either the mechanism is free and therefore autonomous (UNTIL it is dabbled with) or it is preprogrammed.” Now you are saying that first the mechanism is free(wheeling), and second God dabbles. No difference. So what makes you so certain that your God disapproved of every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder that organisms “freewheeled” throughout the history of life (since you insist that he designed them all)? Did the weaverbird, for instance, design its own nest but your God didn't like it, so taught the bird how to tie knots (because presumably a knotty nest was for some reason essential to the production of humans)?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 01, 2017, 19:30 (2883 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I strongly object to your theory, as usual, since I feel any advanced designing requires a conscious mind, as in proceeding from early whale one to early whale two, with tremendous physiological changes from one to the other.

dhw: I agree that advanced designing requires a conscious mind (or cooperating minds), if by “conscious” you mean sentient, intelligent, information-processing, communicative, cooperative, decision-making (but not to be equated with the self-awareness of humans). That is the whole point of my hypothesis.

And I reject the point. How does pre-whale one design pre-whale two? Where is the mind to do all the planning required. Remember it is a big gap in form, physiology and function.


DAVID: I've not been clear, based on your comment. The freewheeling concept is to be seen stepwise. First, the organisms have a mechanism that allows them to try something (freewheeling), but then, secondly, God steps in and alters the change to a direction of evolution He likes.

dhw: So what is it you strongly object to? On 29 December I wrote: “Either the mechanism is free and therefore autonomous (UNTIL it is dabbled with) or it is preprogrammed.” Now you are saying that first the mechanism is free(wheeling), and second God dabbles. No difference. So what makes you so certain that your God disapproved of every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder that organisms “freewheeled” throughout the history of life (since you insist that he designed them all)? Did the weaverbird, for instance, design its own nest but your God didn't like it, so taught the bird how to tie knots (because presumably a knotty nest was for some reason essential to the production of humans)?

You pounce on an attempt at a theory of freewheeling. It is reasonable that some simple changes were approved by God under this concept which is exactly what I have described. As for the weaver nest, you have no reasonable explanation either. The knots are obviously too complex for the bird to have invented by itself. The nest hangs like a sack or sling. It had to be invented all at once or it wouldn't work, or haven't you noticed? Back to saltation.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Monday, January 02, 2017, 15:49 (2882 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I agree that advanced designing requires a conscious mind (or cooperating minds), if by “conscious” you mean sentient, intelligent, information-processing, communicative, cooperative, decision-making (but not to be equated with the self-awareness of humans). That is the whole point of my hypothesis.
DAVID: And I reject the point. How does pre-whale one design pre-whale two? Where is the mind to do all the planning required. Remember it is a big gap in form, physiology and function.

I know you reject the point, just as you reject the point that the cell communities which make up weaverbirds, spiders, wasps, monarch butterflies, cuttlefish etc. might have the “mind” to design their nests, webs, parasitism, lifestyle, camouflage. (See below for whales.) Where is the 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme that your God installed in the first cells, to be passed on for all these natural wonders?

DAVID: I've not been clear, based on your comment. The freewheeling concept is to be seen stepwise. First, the organisms have a mechanism that allows them to try something (freewheeling), but then, secondly, God steps in and alters the change to a direction of evolution He likes.
dhw: So what is it you strongly object to? On 29 December I wrote: “Either the mechanism is free and therefore autonomous (UNTIL it is dabbled with) or it is preprogrammed.” Now you are saying that first the mechanism is free(wheeling), and second God dabbles. No difference.
DAVID: You pounce on an attempt at a theory of freewheeling. It is reasonable that some simple changes were approved by God under this concept which is exactly what I have described.

The only simple changes you have described, as far as I can recall, are minor adaptations, which can hardly be termed inventive, as in “inventive mechanism”. Please give us an example of an inventive change which you consider organisms are capable of organizing autonomously.

DAVID: As for the weaver nest, you have no reasonable explanation either. The knots are obviously too complex for the bird to have invented by itself. The nest hangs like a sack or sling. It had to be invented all at once or it wouldn't work, or haven't you noticed? Back to saltation.

The nests are not all identical, and there is no reason to assume that every detail sprang into existence at the same time. Some, for instance, extend their entrance with a long tube. Why is it “obvious” that the knots are too complex for the bird to have invented? We know from experiments that some birds are capable of solving complex problems, as are many other organisms, and we know that beavers can build dams and ants can build cities that require extremely complex feats of design. As for “saltation”, all the natural wonders I have listed above must have worked almost immediately or they wouldn’t have survived. Why do you always cry “saltation” as if it proved these wonders were the product of divine preprogramming and/or dabbling? Adaptations in response to a threat must also be saltations or the organism won’t survive. This forces you into assuming that bacteria have been divinely preprogrammed with every single solution to every single problem faced since the beginning of life and onwards for the rest of time.

DAVID (under “slime mold”): I'm afraid I do not consider any cells capable of what you propose. I continue to present living biochemistry that is too complex for cells to develop or invent on their own. You are counting on comments by Shapiro on his research that show simple responses to stimuli or alterations of DNA by single-celled organisms to make small adjustments. This cannot translate to having cell communities design the changes in gaps of the whale series as one of the best examples of complex evolution.

Why on earth your God felt obliged to design, redesign, and go on redesigning the whale when all he wanted to do was design humans I shall never understand, but my hypothesis (theistic version) always allows for his dabbling. And so for the sake of argument only, I am quite happy to imagine that he had strong feelings about the whale, and decided to carry on experimenting. What bothers me is your insistence that he does the same for every single innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder – the same careful attention, all for the sake of producing humans. We do not know how far cellular intelligence can go in creating its own designs, and so it is premature to claim that it “cannot” translate into ANY of the above. You are constantly harping on about the scientists who agree with you that cells are automatons, and you prefer to ignore those who disagree with you (of whom Shapiro is only one). I can’t help wondering how many of “your” scientists agree with you that only God could have designed the weaverbird’s nest.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Monday, January 02, 2017, 17:50 (2882 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: I know you reject the point, just as you reject the point that the cell communities which make up weaverbirds, spiders, wasps, monarch butterflies, cuttlefish etc. might have the “mind” to design their nests, webs, parasitism, lifestyle, camouflage. (See below for whales.) Where is the 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme that your God installed in the first cells, to be passed on for all these natural wonders?

I keep resenting advances in understanding the many layers of the genome and how the actions of the genes in DNA can be modified. the 3.8 BYO program is in all those layers, of which we still understand only a small bit.

DAVID: You pounce on an attempt at a theory of freewheeling. It is reasonable that some simple changes were approved by God under this concept which is exactly what I have described.

dhw: The only simple changes you have described, as far as I can recall, are minor adaptations, which can hardly be termed inventive, as in “inventive mechanism”. Please give us an example of an inventive change which you consider organisms are capable of organizing autonomously.

I can't. It is only a proposition of what might exist. We do recognize epigenetic adaptations, but they are minor, as we both agree. There is no evidence how complex speciation occurs, as in the whale series.


DAVID: As for the weaver nest, you have no reasonable explanation either. The knots are obviously too complex for the bird to have invented by itself. The nest hangs like a sack or sling. It had to be invented all at once or it wouldn't work, or haven't you noticed? Back to saltation.

dhw: The nests are not all identical, and there is no reason to assume that every detail sprang into existence at the same time. Some, for instance, extend their entrance with a long tube. Why is it “obvious” that the knots are too complex for the bird to have invented? We know from experiments that some birds are capable of solving complex problems,

The complex uses of tools by crows are not comparable to the knots making nests that hang off trees.

dhw: as are many other organisms, and we know that beavers can build dams and ants can build cities that require extremely complex feats of design. As for “saltation”, all the natural wonders I have listed above must have worked almost immediately or they wouldn’t have survived. Why do you always cry “saltation” as if it proved these wonders were the product of divine preprogramming and/or dabbling? Adaptations in response to a threat must also be saltations or the organism won’t survive.

Simply because I do not believe these critters have the mental capacity to produce their own saltations.

dhw: This forces you into assuming that bacteria have been divinely preprogrammed with every single solution to every single problem faced since the beginning of life and onwards for the rest of time.

Nothing wrong with that presumption administered by God.


DAVID (under “slime mold”): I'm afraid I do not consider any cells capable of what you propose. I continue to present living biochemistry that is too complex for cells to develop or invent on their own. You are counting on comments by Shapiro on his research that show simple responses to stimuli or alterations of DNA by single-celled organisms to make small adjustments. This cannot translate to having cell communities design the changes in gaps of the whale series as one of the best examples of complex evolution.

dhw: Why on earth your God felt obliged to design, redesign, and go on redesigning the whale when all he wanted to do was design humans I shall never understand, but my hypothesis (theistic version) always allows for his dabbling. And so for the sake of argument only, I am quite happy to imagine that he had strong feelings about the whale, and decided to carry on experimenting. What bothers me is your insistence that he does the same for every single innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder – the same careful attention, all for the sake of producing humans.

Humans are obviously the pinnacle of evolutionary creation. Why not my scenario?

dhw We do not know how far cellular intelligence can go in creating its own designs, and so it is premature to claim that it “cannot” translate into ANY of the above. You are constantly harping on about the scientists who agree with you that cells are automatons, and you prefer to ignore those who disagree with you (of whom Shapiro is only one). I can’t help wondering how many of “your” scientists agree with you that only God could have designed the weaverbird’s nest.

Because it is obvious to me that the complex advances of evolution absolutely require an exquisitely intelligent mind to perform the planning. Nothing less. As for scientists, those at the Discovery Institute, the authors of Nature's IQ and the author of its foreword are some examples I point out. Your might review the website Uncommon Descent. Plenty of them there. I am not alone.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Tuesday, January 03, 2017, 15:29 (2881 days ago) @ David Turell

I shall juxtapose parts of your post to make the argument clearer.

dhw: Where is the 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme that your God installed in the first cells, to be passed on for all these natural wonders?
DAVID: I keep presenting advances in understanding the many layers of the genome and how the actions of the genes in DNA can be modified. the 3.8 BYO program is in all those layers, of which we still understand only a small bit.

Not only do we understand only a small bit of the many layers of the genome, but we also understand only a small bit of how consciousness/intelligence works. At least it is possible to test the intelligence of organisms. I don’t know how you can test for the existence of a detailed programme for the whole of evolution beginning 3.8 billion years ago.

dhw: Please give us an example of an inventive change which you consider organisms are capable of organizing autonomously.
DAVID: I can't. It is only a proposition of what might exist. We do recognize epigenetic adaptations, but they are minor, as we both agree. There is no evidence how complex speciation occurs, as in the whale series.

So you believe that there might be a freewheeling inventive mechanism, but you do not believe it is possible for “these critters” (see below) to freewheel or invent anything. Not much help there. In addition to speciation, there is no evidence as to how complex lifestyles and wonders occur, as in the monarch butterfly and the weaverbird’s nest. Your hypothesis and mine are only “propositions of what might exist”, but we can at least try to fit these propositions to the history of evolution as we know it.

Dhw (re the weaverbird’s nest): Why is it “obvious” that the knots are too complex for the bird to have invented? We know from experiments that some birds are capable of solving complex problems.
DAVID: The complex uses of tools by crows are not comparable to the knots making nests that hang off trees.

They are proof of intelligence and of the ability to use their own natural attributes to perform complex tasks. Building a nest with knots is comparable to beavers’ dams and ants’ cities.

DAVID: I do not believe these critters have the mental capacity to produce their own saltations.

But you do believe that the very first cells contained programmes for every single saltation, and so for reasons you yourself cannot fathom, God personally designed all these wonders, extinct and extant, plus all bacterial adaptations throughout life’s history, in order to produce humans.

DAVID: Humans are obviously the pinnacle of evolutionary creation. Why not my scenario?

Because my scenario also allows for divine dabbling and for humans to be the pinnacle, but – in contrast to your own scenario - explains the higgledy-piggledy bush. As I see it, you are forced into this disjointed pre-planning scenario because for some reason you cannot stand the thought that your God might not have had everything worked out in advance or might even have deliberately created a world that could produce the unpredictable.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Wednesday, January 04, 2017, 00:25 (2881 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Wednesday, January 04, 2017, 00:34


Not only do we understand only a small bit of the many layers of the genome, but we also understand only a small bit of how consciousness/intelligence works. At least it is possible to test the intelligence of organisms.

For animals with a brain, intelligence testing is straight forward. With single celled animals, one tests intelligent planning or intelligence, either or.


dhw: Please give us an example of an inventive change which you consider organisms are capable of organizing autonomously.

DAVID: I can't. It is only a proposition of what might exist. We do recognize epigenetic adaptations, but they are minor, as we both agree. There is no evidence how complex speciation occurs, as in the whale series.

dhw: Your hypothesis and mine are only “propositions of what might exist”, but we can at least try to fit these propositions to the history of evolution as we know it.

In trying to fit in what we see in evolution we need to recognize the size of the gaps between the various stages of, for example, the series of changes from dinosaur to bird:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/20150602-dinosaurs-to-birds/

It is worth studying. Recognizing the degree of complexity leads to recognizing the need for a sophisticated mind to plan the changes. The development of the feather alone is enough for me to reach that conclusion. It has be invented before flight develops. What use are feathers for the non-flying dinosaur, before he ability to fly develops? Not much if anything. The development of the feather is also highly complex when studied. Bones had to become lighter, metabolism revved up. The whole series of changes strongly suggests planning and teleology.

DAVID: The complex uses of tools by crows are not comparable to the knots making nests that hang off trees.

dhw: They are proof of intelligence and of the ability to use their own natural attributes to perform complex tasks. Building a nest with knots is comparable to beavers’ dams and ants’ cities.

You may well be correct here. God can bed seen as helping them also.


DAVID: I do not believe these critters have the mental capacity to produce their own saltations.

dhw: But you do believe that the very first cells contained programmes for every single saltation, and so for reasons you yourself cannot fathom, God personally designed all these wonders, extinct and extant, plus all bacterial adaptations throughout life’s history, in order to produce humans.

No, I've included the issue of dabbling. Not a perfect program from the beginning, but God stepping in to direct the changes.


DAVID: Humans are obviously the pinnacle of evolutionary creation. Why not my scenario?

dhw: Because my scenario also allows for divine dabbling and for humans to be the pinnacle, but – in contrast to your own scenario - explains the higgledy-piggledy bush. As I see it, you are forced into this disjointed pre-planning scenario because for some reason you cannot stand the thought that your God might not have had everything worked out in advance or might even have deliberately created a world that could produce the unpredictable.

Your scenario requires organismal genetic intelligence they obviously don't have, but assumed to possibly exist. The complexity of life obviously requires meticulous planning to create life and then have it advance with increasing complexity.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Wednesday, January 04, 2017, 17:40 (2880 days ago) @ David Turell

Dhw: Not only do we understand only a small bit of the many layers of the genome, but we also understand only a small bit of how consciousness/intelligence works. At least it is possible to test the intelligence of organisms.
DAVID: For animals with a brain, intelligence testing is straight forward. With single celled animals, one tests intelligent planning or intelligence, either or.

In both cases, the tests relate to an organism’s ability to solve problems with which it is not normally confronted. How does one test to see if an organism has inherited a computer programme designed 3.8 billion years ago by God, or has received God's personal guidance?

dhw: Your hypothesis and mine are only “propositions of what might exist”, but we can at least try to fit these propositions to the history of evolution as we know it.

DAVID: In trying to fit in what we see in evolution we need to recognize the size of the gaps between the various stages of, for example, the series of changes from dinosaur to bird:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/20150602-dinosaurs-to-birds/
It is worth studying. Recognizing the degree of complexity leads to recognizing the need for a sophisticated mind to plan the changes. […]

As always, you highlight complexities, which I keep acknowledging are a major argument against atheism. We have no idea to what extent cell communities can do their own designing through a possibly God-given intelligence. But regardless of that issue, the complexities of dinosaurs evolving into birds, like the complexities of whale evolution, monarch migration and the blessed weaverbird's nest, do not denote that the whole of evolution was directed towards the production of humans. (See below.)

DAVID: I do not believe these critters have the mental capacity to produce their own saltations.
dhw: But you do believe that the very first cells contained programmes for every single saltation, and so for reasons you yourself cannot fathom, God personally designed all these wonders, extinct and extant, plus all bacterial adaptations throughout life’s history, in order to produce humans.
DAVID: No, I've included the issue of dabbling. Not a perfect program from the beginning, but God stepping in to direct the changes.

OK, but dabbling also means personal design. What do you mean by “not a perfect program”? Did your God make mistakes in his planning? Or are you now going back to your “freewheeling” inventive mechanism which two days ago turned out to be neither free nor inventive?

dhw: As I see it, you are forced into this disjointed pre-planning scenario because for some reason you cannot stand the thought that your God might not have had everything worked out in advance or might even have deliberately created a world that could produce the unpredictable.
DAVID: Your scenario requires organismal genetic intelligence they obviously don't have, but assumed to possibly exist. The complexity of life obviously requires meticulous planning to create life and then have it advance with increasing complexity.

What is obvious to you is not obvious to me. Once again: We do not know the source of speciation, and we do not know the extent of organismal genetic intelligence. Your two marvellous posts about chickens and ants (once again, many thanks) add to the long list of revelations concerning the intelligence of “these critters”. My proposal is a hypothesis, not an assumption. It is your “obviously don’t have…” that is an assumption. But yes to your second statement: I find it as difficult to believe that the mechanisms for life and evolution arose by chance as I do to believe in the sourceless super-consciousness we call God. However, even if I accept the God theory as a basic premise, I can still find no sense in the attempt to link the whole history of evolution to the production of a single species. Since you can’t understand the relevance of that history yourself, why can’t you accept the possibility that he did NOT plan humans right from the start?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Wednesday, January 04, 2017, 18:35 (2880 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: For animals with a brain, intelligence testing is straight forward. With single celled animals, one tests intelligent planning or intelligence, either or.

dhw: In both cases, the tests relate to an organism’s ability to solve problems with which it is not normally confronted. How does one test to see if an organism has inherited a computer programme designed 3.8 billion years ago by God, or has received God's personal guidance?

We cannot differentiate, since all we can study are the genomes that are present now.

dhw: As always, you highlight complexities, which I keep acknowledging are a major argument against atheism. ...the complexities of dinosaurs evolving into birds, like the complexities of whale evolution, monarch migration and the blessed weaverbird's nest, do not denote that the whole of evolution was directed towards the production of humans.

Not directly, but the appearance of teleology to reach humans is overwhelming to me.

DAVID: No, I've included the issue of dabbling. Not a perfect program from the beginning, but God stepping in to direct the changes.

dhw: OK, but dabbling also means personal design. What do you mean by “not a perfect program”? Did your God make mistakes in his planning? Or are you now going back to your “freewheeling” inventive mechanism which two days ago turned out to be neither free nor inventive?

My approach assumes God is always in control to guide evolution to reach the current human form, which I believe is the final step, with no further human change. Total control means pre-planning, possible dabbling, and some degree of free-wheeling modifications edited by God as He sees fit.

DAVID: Your scenario requires organismal genetic intelligence they obviously don't have, but assumed to possibly exist. The complexity of life obviously requires meticulous planning to create life and then have it advance with increasing complexity.

dhw:However, even if I accept the God theory as a basic premise, I can still find no sense in the attempt to link the whole history of evolution to the production of a single species. Since you can’t understand the relevance of that history yourself, why can’t you accept the possibility that he did NOT plan humans right from the start?

The reasoning I follow starts with the miraculous appearance of a universe that is fine-tuned for life, followed by one unusually specialized planet that can allow life to appear. Life appears miraculously on an inorganic planet, then modified by living matter into a very different planet. And finally that life modifies in an evolutionary pattern to produce humans who can study and partially understand the universe they live in. I'm sorry if you cannot see that the majesty of that series of events requires a master mind to drive the entire process. Humans were always to goal. I remind you other primates were living happily eight million years ago, without an advance to us required. But it happened. End of case.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Thursday, January 05, 2017, 11:17 (2879 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: For animals with a brain, intelligence testing is straight forward. With single celled animals, one tests intelligent planning or intelligence, either or.

dhw: In both cases, the tests relate to an organism’s ability to solve problems with which it is not normally confronted. How does one test to see if an organism has inherited a computer programme designed 3.8 billion years ago by God, or has received God's personal guidance?
DAVID: We cannot differentiate, since all we can study are the genomes that are present now.

In order to decide whether an organism – ANY organism – is intelligent, we can study their behaviour by setting them problems.

dhw: As always, you highlight complexities, which I keep acknowledging are a major argument against atheism. ...the complexities of dinosaurs evolving into birds, like the complexities of whale evolution, monarch migration and the blessed weaverbird's nest, do not denote that the whole of evolution was directed towards the production of humans.
DAVID: Not directly, but the appearance of teleology to reach humans is overwhelming to me.

Neither of us can find any reason why your God could not have reached humans without whale evolution, monarch migration and the weaverbird’s nest. This suggests to me that the history of evolution was NOT geared to the production of humans, although in a theistic scenario it is quite feasible that (a) they might have been dabbled as an afterthought, or (b) your God might have had some vague idea of creating a creature resembling himself in consciousness, and might have spent a few billion years experimenting. What is your objection to these scenarios?

DAVID: No, I've included the issue of dabbling. Not a perfect program from the beginning, but God stepping in to direct the changes.
dhw: OK, but dabbling also means personal design. What do you mean by “not a perfect program”? Did your God make mistakes in his planning? Or are you now going back to your “freewheeling” inventive mechanism which two days ago turned out to be neither free nor inventive?
DAVID: My approach assumes God is always in control to guide evolution to reach the current human form, which I believe is the final step, with no further human change. Total control means pre-planning, possible dabbling, and some degree of free-wheeling modifications edited by God as He sees fit.

Total control does not allow for freewheeling, but you have already made it plain that you cannot think of any instance in which an organism might have been left free to do its own inventive wheeling. You are again left with the personal design of vast numbers of organisms, lifestyles and natural wonders extinct and extant which you cannot link to the production of humans.

dhw:… even if I accept the God theory as a basic premise, I can still find no sense in the attempt to link the whole history of evolution to the production of a single species. Since you can’t understand the relevance of that history yourself, why can’t you accept the possibility that he did NOT plan humans right from the start?

DAVID: The reasoning I follow starts with the miraculous appearance of a universe that is fine-tuned for life, followed by one unusually specialized planet that can allow life to appear. Life appears miraculously on an inorganic planet, then modified by living matter into a very different planet. And finally that life modifies in an evolutionary pattern to produce humans who can study and partially understand the universe they live in. I'm sorry if you cannot see that the majesty of that series of events requires a master mind to drive the entire process.

So far, so good. With my theist hat on, I can accept all of this.

DAVID: Humans were always the goal. I remind you other primates were living happily eight million years ago, without an advance to us required. But it happened. End of case.

That is the point at which, with my theist hat on, I must object to the extraordinary philosophical saltation with which you make this claim, as if all the arguments against it can be glossed over. No advance to any multicellular organism – including the whale, the duckbilled platypus, the weaverbird and all the dead dinosaurs – was “required”, since bacteria have survived perfectly well. The higgledy-piggledy history of evolution makes absolutely no sense if your almighty (= in "total control") God started out with the goal of producing humans. See above for alternative scenarios.

xxx

I shall have to respond to the “conscious universe” article tomorrow, as I am now off to visit my newborn grandchildren!

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 05, 2017, 18:20 (2879 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: We cannot differentiate, since all we can study are the genomes that are present now.

dhw: In order to decide whether an organism – ANY organism – is intelligent, we can study their behaviour by setting them problems.

The same old problem exists. In an animal with a brain we can study their mental capacities as I've presented over and over, from insects like ants, to crows, to primates, but at the single-celled level we still have the problem of how much automaticity is present, all or some automatic.


dhw: ...the complexities of dinosaurs evolving into birds, like the complexities of whale evolution, monarch migration and the blessed weaverbird's nest, do not denote that the whole of evolution was directed towards the production of humans.[/i]

DAVID: Not directly, but the appearance of teleology to reach humans is overwhelming to me.

dhw; Neither of us can find any reason why your God could not have reached humans without whale evolution, monarch migration and the weaverbird’s nest. This suggests to me that the history of evolution was NOT geared to the production of humans, although in a theistic scenario it is quite feasible that (a) they might have been dabbled as an afterthought, or (b) your God might have had some vague idea of creating a creature resembling himself in consciousness, and might have spent a few billion years experimenting. What is your objection to these scenarios?

Theoretically the all-powerful God of religions could have produced humans very directly, but we know He didn't. That is no reason to deny the idea that He had an evolutionary goal in mind, but used an evolutionary process.

DAVID: My approach assumes God is always in control to guide evolution to reach the current human form, which I believe is the final step, with no further human change. Total control means pre-planning, possible dabbling, and some degree of free-wheeling modifications edited by God as He sees fit.

Total control does not allow for freewheeling,

Yes it does. The organism freely tries a change and God approves or alters the change. The initiative starts with the organism, not God.


So far, so good. With my theist hat on, I can accept all of this.

DAVID: Humans were always the goal. I remind you other primates were living happily eight million years ago, without an advance to us required. But it happened. End of case.

dhw: That is the point at which, with my theist hat on, I must object to the extraordinary philosophical saltation with which you make this claim, as if all the arguments against it can be glossed over. No advance to any multicellular organism – including the whale, the duckbilled platypus, the weaverbird and all the dead dinosaurs – was “required”, since bacteria have survived perfectly well. The higgledy-piggledy history of evolution makes absolutely no sense if your almighty (= in "total control") God started out with the goal of producing humans.

Your theistic hat is always askew. You struggle to see the purpose I see. The requirement for the bush of life is balance of nature to supply energy for survival of life so evolution can cover 3.6-8 billion years of process.

xxx

dhw: I shall have to respond to the “conscious universe” article tomorrow, as I am now off to visit my newborn grandchildren!

Again congratulations as a proud Grandpa. But note, you are going to see a double miracle, the production of two humans from two eggs! All provided by God's mechanisms implanted into life, so complex, we understand only a tiny portion of it so far. How much complexity do you need before you surrender your agnosticism?

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Friday, January 06, 2017, 13:26 (2878 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: In order to decide whether an organism – ANY organism – is intelligent, we can study their behaviour by setting them problems.
DAVID: The same old problem exists. In an animal with a brain we can study their mental capacities as I've presented over and over, from insects like ants, to crows, to primates, but at the single-celled level we still have the problem of how much automaticity is present, all or some automatic.

We study the mental capacities of ALL organisms by observing their behaviour and/or setting them problems. You even keep telling us that animals with brains also have to be programmed or guided by your God to produce their natural wonders, so the “problem of how much automaticity is present” applies just as much to them as to bacteria. (And determinists will argue that the same applies to humans.) If an organism is able to solve problems that require intelligence, it is pure prejudice to insist that they CANNOT be intelligent just because they do not have a brain.

dhw; Neither of us can find any reason why your God could not have reached humans without whale evolution, monarch migration and the weaverbird’s nest. This suggests to me that the history of evolution was NOT geared to the production of humans, although in a theistic scenario it is quite feasible that (a) they might have been dabbled as an afterthought, or (b) your God might have had some vague idea of creating a creature resembling himself in consciousness, and might have spent a few billion years experimenting. What is your objection to these scenarios?

DAVID: Theoretically the all-powerful God of religions could have produced humans very directly, but we know He didn't. That is no reason to deny the idea that He had an evolutionary goal in mind, but used an evolutionary process.

You do not follow “all religions”, do you? What is your objection to the theoretical proposal that his goal was to produce a creature resembling himself, but he didn’t know how to do it and spent a few billion years experimenting? That gives you your evolutionary goal, and also explains the higgledy-piggledy history which is not covered by your own theory.

DAVID: My approach assumes God is always in control to guide evolution to reach the current human form, which I believe is the final step, with no further human change. Total control means pre-planning, possible dabbling, and some degree of free-wheeling modifications edited by God as He sees fit.
Dhw: Total control does not allow for freewheeling,
DAVID: Yes it does. The organism freely tries a change and God approves or alters the change. The initiative starts with the organism, not God.

That suits me fine. How does the organism FREELY try a change if it does not have an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism?

DAVID: Humans were always the goal. I remind you other primates were living happily eight million years ago, without an advance to us required. But it happened. End of case.
dhw: That is the point at which, with my theist hat on, I must object to the extraordinary philosophical saltation with which you make this claim, as if all the arguments against it can be glossed over. No advance to any multicellular organism – including the whale, the duckbilled platypus, the weaverbird and all the dead dinosaurs – was “required”, since bacteria have survived perfectly well. The higgledy-piggledy history of evolution makes absolutely no sense if your almighty (= in "total control") God started out with the goal of producing humans.

David: Your theistic hat is always askew. You struggle to see the purpose I see. The requirement for the bush of life is balance of nature to supply energy for survival of life so evolution can cover 3.6-8 billion years of process.

Round we go in the same circles. Your God had to personally design the different stages of pre-whale, the monarch’s lifestyle and the weaverbird’s nest in order to keep life going so that humans could arrive? I struggle to see any logic in the purpose you see.

xxx

dhw: I shall have to respond to the “conscious universe” article tomorrow, as I am now off to visit my newborn grandchildren!
DAVID: Again congratulations as a proud Grandpa. But note, you are going to see a double miracle, the production of two humans from two eggs! All provided by God's mechanisms implanted into life, so complex, we understand only a tiny portion of it so far. How much complexity do you need before you surrender your agnosticism?

Thank you again. I am as awestruck now by the miracle of life as I was when I first saw the father of the twins 50 years ago. The wonderment extends to all forms of life, down to the tiniest from which I believe we have evolved. What triggered life? According to you, something even more miraculous: a universe-making, universe-encompassing, unknown and unknowable, hidden, conscious mind that was never triggered by anything. Philosophical stalemate.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 07, 2017, 01:12 (2878 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: The same old problem exists. In an animal with a brain we can study their mental capacities as I've presented over and over, from insects like ants, to crows, to primates, but at the single-celled level we still have the problem of how much automaticity is present, all or some automatic.

dhw: We study the mental capacities of ALL organisms by observing their behaviour and/or setting them problems. You even keep telling us that animals with brains also have to be programmed or guided by your God to produce their natural wonders, so the “problem of how much automaticity is present” applies just as much to them as to bacteria.

My dog shows intentionality all the time, communicates with me in many ways, but his instincts operate automatically at all times. He always circles several times to lie down for sleep. This pattern, universal to all dogs, is interpreted as matting down the grass before lying from times before domestication.

dhw: (And determinists will argue that the same applies to humans.) If an organism is able to solve problems that require intelligence, it is pure prejudice to insist that they CANNOT be intelligent just because they do not have a brain.

With single-celled, you've agreed the probability is 50/50% as to which is correct.


dhw: You do not follow “all religions”, do you? What is your objection to the theoretical proposal that his goal was to produce a creature resembling himself, but he didn’t know how to do it and spent a few billion years experimenting? That gives you your evolutionary goal, and also explains the higgledy-piggledy history which is not covered by your own theory.

My version of God, based on the complexity in the living beings He create4d, is that He certainly knew what He was doing.

DAVID: Yes it does. The organism freely tries a change and God approves or alters the change. The initiative starts with the organism, not God.

dhw: That suits me fine. How does the organism FREELY try a change if it does not have an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism?

But it may well have a mechanism with God dabbling as necessary.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Saturday, January 07, 2017, 13:03 (2877 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The same old problem exists. In an animal with a brain we can study their mental capacities as I've presented over and over, from insects like ants, to crows, to primates, but at the single-celled level we still have the problem of how much automaticity is present, all or some automatic.
dhw: We study the mental capacities of ALL organisms by observing their behaviour and/or setting them problems. You even keep telling us that animals with brains also have to be programmed or guided by your God to produce their natural wonders, so the “problem of how much automaticity is present” applies just as much to them as to bacteria.
DAVID: My dog shows intentionality all the time, communicates with me in many ways, but his instincts operate automatically at all times. He always circles several times to lie down for sleep. This pattern, universal to all dogs, is interpreted as matting down the grass before lying from times before domestication.

Nobody is saying that organisms do not have instincts. We have instincts too. That has nothing to do with intelligence.

dhw: (And determinists will argue that the same applies to humans.) If an organism is able to solve problems that require intelligence, it is pure prejudice to insist that they CANNOT be intelligent just because they do not have a brain.

DAVID: With single-celled, you've agreed the probability is 50/50% as to which is correct.

I am leaning quite heavily towards intelligence, but I do not reject the possibility of “automaticity”. You, however, insist – despite your 50/50 – that organisms CANNOT be intelligent because they do not have a brain, and that I regard as pure prejudice.

dhw: You do not follow “all religions”, do you? What is your objection to the theoretical proposal that his goal was to produce a creature resembling himself, but he didn’t know how to do it and spent a few billion years experimenting? That gives you your evolutionary goal, and also explains the higgledy-piggledy history which is not covered by your own theory.
DAVID: My version of God, based on the complexity in the living beings He created, is that He certainly knew what He was doing.

If he was experimenting to create a being like himself, he would have known he was experimenting to create a being like himself. So once again, what is your objection?

DAVID: The organism freely tries a change and God approves or alters the change. The initiative starts with the organism, not God.
dhw: That suits me fine. How does the organism FREELY try a change if it does not have an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism?

DAVID: But it may well have a mechanism with God dabbling as necessary.

We have been here before, but thank you for at last accepting the possibility that your God may have given organisms an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism. I have already stated repeatedly that if he did so, he would have reserved the right to dabble.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 07, 2017, 18:45 (2877 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Nobody is saying that organisms do not have instincts. We have instincts too. That has nothing to do with intelligence.

Isn't intelligence stored somewhere? We know single-celled animals almost molecule by molecule. Where is the storage point?


dhw: I am leaning quite heavily towards intelligence, but I do not reject the possibility of “automaticity”. You, however, insist – despite your 50/50 – that organisms CANNOT be intelligent because they do not have a brain, and that I regard as pure prejudice.

The intelligence we see in single-celled organisms is in their reactions to stimuli which chemically appear to be automatic. Where does the decision making take place if it not automatic?


dhw: You do not follow “all religions”, do you? What is your objection to the theoretical proposal that his goal was to produce a creature resembling himself, but he didn’t know how to do it and spent a few billion years experimenting? That gives you your evolutionary goal, and also explains the higgledy-piggledy history which is not covered by your own theory.

DAVID: My version of God, based on the complexity in the living beings He created, is that He certainly knew what He was doing.

c dhw: If he was experimenting to create a being like himself, he would have known he was experimenting to create a being like himself. So once again, what is your objection?

But you stated above: " What is your objection to the theoretical proposal that his goal was to produce a creature resembling himself, but he didn’t know how to do it and spent a few billion years experimenting?" I'm confused by your thinking.

Evolution took a long time: C elegans learning

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 07, 2017, 20:31 (2877 days ago) @ David Turell

Adolescent C. elegans were studied with a chemical they like to eat and compared in their response with adults. The adults show more evidence of plasticity with more neurons responding to the smell in a more positive reaction:

http://www.salk.edu/news-release/worms-teenage-ambivalence/

Now, Salk Institute scientists studying roundworms suggest that, in both worms and humans, adolescent brains mature to stable adult brains by changing which brain cells they use to generate behavior. Teen worm brains drive wishy-washy behavior that allows them to stay flexible in an uncertain world, while adult worm brains drive efficient behavior. The discovery provides insight into the underlying drivers of neurological development that could help better understand the human brain and disease.

Our research shows that, despite having exactly the same genes and neurons as adults, adolescent roundworms have completely different food-seeking preferences and abilities,” says Sreekanth Chalasani, associate professor in Salk’s Molecular Neurobiology Laboratory. “It is in adulthood that we finally see the worms become more efficient and competent at finding food.”

The microscopic Caenorhabditis elegans worm may seem like an odd source of insight into human brain development. With only 302 neurons to humans’ almost 100 billion, C. elegans is a vastly simpler organism but its basic neurological circuitry has many similarities to ours. And, since scientists have already mapped the adult roundworms’ neurons anatomically and functionally, they can easily perform experiments and trace neural circuits in C. elegans tasks that are not possible in humans, yielding valuable information about both species.

For instance, both worms and people respond to the smell of the chemical diacetyl, known to humans as “buttered popcorn smell,” which is present in a number of foods, including ones in the C. elegans diet. In fact, the worms have a pair of neurons called AWA dedicated to sensing it. To observe behavioral variation between adult and adolescent worms, the Salk team placed the animals in the center of a dish with a drop of diacetyl on one side, and a neutral odor on the other. Then, in a series of trials over several days, they characterized the paths the worms took.

What the scientists saw surprised them: Adolescent worms meandered and took their time getting to the diacetyl, if they got there at all; adult worms made a beeline for it.

***

When the scientists tested other smells known to be appealing to adults, adolescent preferences varied widely. But they responded with similar alacrity as adults in getting away from a repellent odor, which shows that adolescents’ senses aren’t impaired, they’re just different than adults’.

To understand what might be going on neurologically, the team used molecular techniques to make neurons fluoresce when they are activated by specific odors. As adult and adolescent worms were gently held in custom-built traps under microscopes, odors were wafted over their noses to see which smell neurons were activated. For adolescents, the AWA neuron pair fired solely in response to high concentrations of diacetyl. But in adults, AWA fired in the presence of subtler concentrations of diacetyl. More surprisingly, three other paired neurons called AWB, ASK and AWC fired in adults as well, indicating a more complex response to the stimulus. When the team blocked the three secondary neuron pairs and ran the experiment again, adults began to behave like adolescents toward diacetyl, suggesting that adult behavior results from combinations of neuronal inputs.

The Salk team thinks adolescents’ broad preferences afford them an evolutionary flexibility in an uncertain world. If they already have a strong preference for diacetyl, but sources of that food are lacking in their environment, they will starve, whereas if they are interested in lots of different foodstuffs they can adjust their tastes to what is available. Adults, having learned what foods are available, can afford to be choosier and are more efficient at seeking particular foods.

“These results support the idea that evolution works by making a juvenile plastic to learn a lot of things; then making an adult tuned to take advantage of that learning,” says Chalasani. “Instead of merely being rebellious, teens—both humans and worms—may just be staying flexible to adapt to an unpredictable world.”

Comment: Every cell in C. elegans is completely understood, including the 302 neurons. Plasticity in learning can be easily studied as this paper shows. Here it is easy to see a neural mechanism for intelligence and learning. My point is the single-celled organism, learns by a different mechanism and it is alterations in DNA as Shapiro has shown. It necessarily much simpler, and probably automatic once a new response is established

Evolution took a long time: C elegans learning

by dhw, Sunday, January 08, 2017, 13:56 (2876 days ago) @ David Turell

David’s comment: Every cell in C. elegans is completely understood, including the 302 neurons. Plasticity in learning can be easily studied as this paper shows. Here it is easy to see a neural mechanism for intelligence and learning. My point is the single-celled organism, learns by a different mechanism and it is alterations in DNA as Shapiro has shown. It necessarily much simpler, and probably automatic once a new response is established.

Since it hasn’t got a brain, of course it must learn by a different mechanism, and I’m happy to accept that it is simpler. The question is not what happens once a new response is established, but how a new response comes about in the first place. I suggest intelligence. You suggest divine dabbling or preprogramming of every response throughout the history of life.

Evolution took a long time: C elegans learning

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 08, 2017, 21:16 (2876 days ago) @ dhw

David’s comment: Every cell in C. elegans is completely understood, including the 302 neurons. Plasticity in learning can be easily studied as this paper shows. Here it is easy to see a neural mechanism for intelligence and learning. My point is the single-celled organism, learns by a different mechanism and it is alterations in DNA as Shapiro has shown. It necessarily much simpler, and probably automatic once a new response is established.

dhw: Since it hasn’t got a brain, of course it must learn by a different mechanism, and I’m happy to accept that it is simpler. The question is not what happens once a new response is established, but how a new response comes about in the first place. I suggest intelligence. You suggest divine dabbling or preprogramming of every response throughout the history of life.

No, you miss my point. The worm clearly modifies its neurons to make new responses. This is how the intelligent responses change. Intelligence requires neurons.

Evolution took a long time: C elegans learning

by dhw, Monday, January 09, 2017, 12:25 (2875 days ago) @ David Turell

David’s comment: Every cell in C. elegans is completely understood, including the 302 neurons. Plasticity in learning can be easily studied as this paper shows. Here it is easy to see a neural mechanism for intelligence and learning. My point is the single-celled organism, learns by a different mechanism and it is alterations in DNA as Shapiro has shown. It necessarily much simpler, and probably automatic once a new response is established.

dhw: Since it hasn’t got a brain, of course it must learn by a different mechanism, and I’m happy to accept that it is simpler. The question is not what happens once a new response is established, but how a new response comes about in the first place. I suggest intelligence. You suggest divine dabbling or preprogramming of every response throughout the history of life.

DAVID: No, you miss my point. The worm clearly modifies its neurons to make new responses. This is how the intelligent responses change. Intelligence requires neurons.

You wrote that the single-celled organism learns by a different mechanism. That is obviously true, since it doesn’t have neurons. It doesn’t mean that intelligence requires neurons. Your claim that the changes are “probably automatic” at least leaves room for the possibility that they are not automatic, i.e. that they are the product of an autonomous intelligence, as proposed by Shapiro & Co, but as usual you withdraw it in your next authoritative statement.

Evolution took a long time: C elegans learning

by David Turell @, Monday, January 09, 2017, 17:25 (2875 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: No, you miss my point. The worm clearly modifies its neurons to make new responses. This is how the intelligent responses change. Intelligence requires neurons.

dhw: You wrote that the single-celled organism learns by a different mechanism. That is obviously true, since it doesn’t have neurons. It doesn’t mean that intelligence requires neurons. Your claim that the changes are “probably automatic” at least leaves room for the possibility that they are not automatic, i.e. that they are the product of an autonomous intelligence, as proposed by Shapiro & Co, but as usual you withdraw it in your next authoritative statement.

I will grant you that from the outside bacterial intelligence is either 'intelligence' or intelligently provided plans of responses. Each of us has made a choice.

Evolution took a long time

by BBella @, Saturday, January 07, 2017, 20:51 (2877 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I am leaning quite heavily towards intelligence, but I do not reject the possibility of “automaticity”. You, however, insist – despite your 50/50 – that organisms CANNOT be intelligent because they do not have a brain, and that I regard as pure prejudice.


The intelligence we see in single-celled organisms is in their reactions to stimuli which chemically appear to be automatic. Where does the decision making take place if it not automatic?

I do wholly reject the idea of "automaticity" except maybe in the case of machines built by humans.

Nothing that is made (except by humans - that we know of) is automatic. Every thing that IS made from and within the universe, is ruled by the quantum world, which is where all decisions take place. Every thing has a degree of freedom within it's own purpose, but all is ruled by the ONE purpose of the quantum world. The quantum world/level is consciousness itself. This is how I see it.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 08, 2017, 02:03 (2877 days ago) @ BBella

dhw: I am leaning quite heavily towards intelligence, but I do not reject the possibility of “automaticity”. You, however, insist – despite your 50/50 – that organisms CANNOT be intelligent because they do not have a brain, and that I regard as pure prejudice.


David: The intelligence we see in single-celled organisms is in their reactions to stimuli which chemically appear to be automatic. Where does the decision making take place if it not automatic?


BBella: I do wholly reject the idea of "automaticity" except maybe in the case of machines built by humans.

Nothing that is made (except by humans - that we know of) is automatic. Every thing that IS made from and within the universe, is ruled by the quantum world, which is where all decisions take place. Every thing has a degree of freedom within it's own purpose, but all is ruled by the ONE purpose of the quantum world. The quantum world/level is consciousness itself. This is how I see it.

We are certainly ruled by the quantum world which underlies everything, living and not living. I see the one purpose of the quantum world is God's purpose. He lives in quantum reality, a different level in which we live.

Evolution took a long time

by BBella @, Sunday, January 08, 2017, 03:44 (2877 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I am leaning quite heavily towards intelligence, but I do not reject the possibility of “automaticity”. You, however, insist – despite your 50/50 – that organisms CANNOT be intelligent because they do not have a brain, and that I regard as pure prejudice.


David: The intelligence we see in single-celled organisms is in their reactions to stimuli which chemically appear to be automatic. Where does the decision making take place if it not automatic?


BBella: I do wholly reject the idea of "automaticity" except maybe in the case of machines built by humans.

Nothing that is made (except by humans - that we know of) is automatic. Every thing that IS made from and within the universe, is ruled by the quantum world, which is where all decisions take place. Every thing has a degree of freedom within it's own purpose, but all is ruled by the ONE purpose of the quantum world. The quantum world/level is consciousness itself. This is how I see it.


We are certainly ruled by the quantum world which underlies everything, living and not living. I see the one purpose of the quantum world is God's purpose. He lives in quantum reality, a different level in which we live.

Yet...you agree that God exists within all that IS - all realities?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 08, 2017, 21:07 (2876 days ago) @ BBella

David: We are certainly ruled by the quantum world which underlies everything, living and not living. I see the one purpose of the quantum world is God's purpose. He lives in quantum reality, a different level in which we live.


BBella: Yet...you agree that God exists within all that IS - all realities?

Yes, the quantum part of reality is with us at all times, separated from us by some type of barrier. I consider it a semi-permeable membrane, which allows the strange connectivity of particles to happen and the late choice experiments to work back and forth across that membrane.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Sunday, January 08, 2017, 13:45 (2876 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Nobody is saying that organisms do not have instincts. We have instincts too. That has nothing to do with intelligence.
DAVID: Isn't intelligence stored somewhere? We know single-celled animals almost molecule by molecule. Where is the storage point?
dhw: I am leaning quite heavily towards intelligence, but I do not reject the possibility of “automaticity”. You, however, insist – despite your 50/50 – that organisms CANNOT be intelligent because they do not have a brain, and that I regard as pure prejudice.
DAVID: The intelligence we see in single-celled organisms is in their reactions to stimuli which chemically appear to be automatic. Where does the decision making take place if it not automatic?

I’m not sure why you use the word “stored”. Memory and information are stored, but nobody knows the source of intelligence in the sense of cognizance, information-processing, decision-making etc. Albrecht-Bühler thinks the control centre of the cell is the centrosome.
Guenter Albrecht-Buehler: Cell Intelligence
www.basic.northwestern.edu/g-buehler/FRAME.HTM
Unless you believe your God personally instructs every single bacterium on how to solve every single problem, where is his 3.8-billion-year computer programme for every solution “stored”? If we know every molecule, why hasn’t it been found?

DAVID: My version of God, based on the complexity in the living beings He created, is that He certainly knew what He was doing.
dhw: If he was experimenting to create a being like himself, he would have known he was experimenting to create a being like himself. So once again, what is your objection?
DAVID: But you stated above: "What is your objection to the theoretical proposal that his goal was to produce a creature resembling himself, but he didn’t know how to do it and spent a few billion years experimenting?" I'm confused by your thinking.

Perhaps I didn’t make the distinction clear. In this hypothesis, your God knows WHAT he is doing (trying to create a being resembling himself), but has to experiment because he doesn’t yet know HOW to do it. The result: lots of complex creatures that still can’t think in the way he wants. So on he goes. Of course this runs contrary to your personal view of a God who knows and is in control of absolutely everything, but this constantly brings you to the great impasse: if he knew how to do it from the start, why did he have to design the different stages of the pre-whale, the monarch’s lifestyle and the weaverbird’s nest? And please don’t tell me they were necessary in order to keep life going till humans could arrive. An experimenting God would at least explain the disappearance of 99% of what you insist he personally created. As of course would the autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism which in your last post you kindly accepted as a possibility.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 08, 2017, 21:14 (2876 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: I’m not sure why you use the word “stored”. Memory and information are stored, but nobody knows the source of intelligence in the sense of cognizance, information-processing, decision-making etc. Albrecht-Bühler thinks the control centre of the cell is the centrosome.
Guenter Albrecht-Buehler: Cell Intelligence
www.basic.northwestern.edu/g-buehler/FRAME.HTM
Unless you believe your God personally instructs every single bacterium on how to solve every single problem, where is his 3.8-billion-year computer programme for every solution “stored”? If we know every molecule, why hasn’t it been found?

Because one of the molecules is DNA and we don't know but a tiny portion of its attributes. The instructions are there.


DAVID: But you stated above: "What is your objection to the theoretical proposal that his goal was to produce a creature resembling himself, but he didn’t know how to do it and spent a few billion years experimenting?" I'm confused by your thinking.

dhw: Perhaps I didn’t make the distinction clear. In this hypothesis, your God knows WHAT he is doing (trying to create a being resembling himself), but has to experiment because he doesn’t yet know HOW to do it. The result: lots of complex creatures that still can’t think in the way he wants. So on he goes. Of course this runs contrary to your personal view of a God who knows and is in control of absolutely everything, but this constantly brings you to the great impasse: if he knew how to do it from the start, why did he have to design the different stages of the pre-whale, the monarch’s lifestyle and the weaverbird’s nest? And please don’t tell me they were necessary in order to keep life going till humans could arrive. An experimenting God would at least explain the disappearance of 99% of what you insist he personally created. As of course would the autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism which in your last post you kindly accepted as a possibility.

I accepted a stepwise process for the IM. The organisms makes an adaptation and God either accepts or adjusts. But we know evolution existed. You want God to wander around befuddled. The answer is simple God prefers evolving things, the evolving universe, evolving life.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Monday, January 09, 2017, 12:21 (2875 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I’m not sure why you use the word “stored”. Memory and information are stored, but nobody knows the source of intelligence in the sense of cognizance, information-processing, decision-making etc. Albrecht-Bühler thinks the control centre of the cell is the centrosome.
Guenter Albrecht-Buehler: Cell Intelligence
www.basic.northwestern.edu/g-buehler/FRAME.HTM
Unless you believe your God personally instructs every single bacterium on how to solve every single problem, where is his 3.8-billion-year computer programme for every solution “stored”? If we know every molecule, why hasn’t it been found?

DAVID: Because one of the molecules is DNA and we don't know but a tiny portion of its attributes. The instructions are there.

The undiscovered, 3.8-billion-year-old instructions for every solution to every problem throughout the history of bacterial life past, present and future are stored in a molecule we don’t know much about, but we do know enough about all the molecules to say that the intelligent behaviour of bacteria can’t be caused by intelligence. The wonders of science.

dhw: An experimenting God would at least explain the disappearance of 99% of what you insist he personally created. As of course would the autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism which in your last post you kindly accepted as a possibility.
DAVID: I accepted a stepwise process for the IM.

You wrote: “The organism freely tries a change and God approves or alters the change. The initiative starts with the organism, not God.” How can a mechanism that freely tries a change be anything but a free mechanism for change? The next “step” according to you is a divine dabble unless the work of the autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism has had his approval.

DAVID: The organisms makes an adaptation and God either accepts or adjusts. But we know evolution existed. You want God to wander around befuddled. The answer is simple God prefers evolving things, the evolving universe, evolving life.

You don’t have to wander around befuddled in order to conduct a scientific experiment. I am simply offering you different theistic hypotheses that will remove the illogicality of your own hypothesis, which is that God personally designed the different pre-whales, the monarch’s lifestyle and the weaverbird’s nest (plus millions of other organisms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct) in order to keep life going in order to produce humans. The intentional free-for-all spectacle, humans as an afterthought, an experimental quest for a creature resembling himself – all of these offer theistic alternatives that provide a logical explanation for the higgledy-piggledy history of evolution.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Monday, January 09, 2017, 15:06 (2875 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Monday, January 09, 2017, 15:11


DAVID: Because one of the molecules is DNA and we don't know but a tiny portion of its attributes. The instructions are there.

dhw: The undiscovered, 3.8-billion-year-old instructions for every solution to every problem throughout the history of bacterial life past, present and future are stored in a molecule we don’t know much about, but we do know enough about all the molecules to say that the intelligent behaviour of bacteria can’t be caused by intelligence. The wonders of science.

Of course it is caused by intelligence, but it is the intelligence that gave the cells their automatic plans of action. See this website showing how macrophages, giant cells of immunity engulf an enemy.

https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/watch-a-predatory-immune-cell-capture-and-engulf-its...

"Immune cells such as macrophages sense biochemical cues in their environment to track down invaders and eventually engulf and neutralise them. (my bold)

***

"But their finely evolved system of adhesion and bonding, used to hold onto their prey, has not been well-studied.

"Using microrobots instead of real microbes, the team's technique – which let them control how hard it was for a macrophage to get a grip on a target – showed the cells align with yielding prey to more easily drag it in.

"For more resistant prey, the cells employed a push-and-pull grappling method."

Comment:It is my belief that the way bacteria live and work is exactly mimicked by the cells in our bodies working for us. I view early evolution as a developmental process to prepare for these cells. Note the bolded statement about biochemical cues. See the video of cell in action.

DAVID: I accepted a stepwise process for the IM.

dhw: You wrote: “The organism freely tries a change and God approves or alters the change. The initiative starts with the organism, not God.” How can a mechanism that freely tries a change be anything but a free mechanism for change? The next “step” according to you is a divine dabble unless the work of the autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism has had his approval.

That is certainly stepwise, with an initial 'free' try for a change.


DAVID: The organisms makes an adaptation and God either accepts or adjusts. But we know evolution existed. You want God to wander around befuddled. The answer is simple God prefers evolving things, the evolving universe, evolving life.

dhw: You don’t have to wander around befuddled in order to conduct a scientific experiment. I am simply offering you different theistic hypotheses that will remove the illogicality of your own hypothesis, which is that God personally designed the different pre-whales, the monarch’s lifestyle and the weaverbird’s nest (plus millions of other organisms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct) in order to keep life going in order to produce humans. The intentional free-for-all spectacle, humans as an afterthought, an experimental quest for a creature resembling himself – all of these offer theistic alternatives that provide a logical explanation for the higgledy-piggledy history of evolution.

Your theorizing does fit a possible interpretation of past evolution, but it still presents a tentative God who is not sure of where He is going. I view God as a very purposeful guy who know exactly where He is taking things.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Tuesday, January 10, 2017, 14:25 (2874 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Because one of the molecules is DNA and we don't know but a tiny portion of its attributes. The instructions are there.
dhw: The undiscovered, 3.8-billion-year-old instructions for every solution to every problem throughout the history of bacterial life past, present and future are stored in a molecule we don’t know much about, but we do know enough about all the molecules to say that the intelligent behaviour of bacteria can’t be caused by intelligence. The wonders of science.
DAVID: Of course it is caused by intelligence, but it is the intelligence that gave the cells their automatic plans of action.

The “automatic plans of action” are the undiscovered 3.8-billion-year-old instructions which your God apparently implanted in the first cells to enable bacteria to solve every individual problem they will encounter throughout life’s history. And you state this as if it were a fact!

DAVID: See this website showing how macrophages, giant cells of immunity engulf an enemy.
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/watch-a-predatory-immune-cell-capture-and-engulf-its...

QUOTE: "Immune cells such as macrophages sense biochemical cues in their environment to track down invaders and eventually engulf and neutralise them." (David’s bold)

Yes of course they sense biochemical clues. All organisms sense cues in their environment, and the senses – of whatever kind – work automatically. Intelligence is the faculty that uses the information provided by the senses.

David’s comment: It is my belief that the way bacteria live and work is exactly mimicked by the cells in our bodies working for us. I view early evolution as a developmental process to prepare for these cells.

That is my view too: that the intelligent behaviour of bacteria is exactly mimicked by the intelligent behaviour of cells/cell communities. Most of these activities are automatic, but (a) these activities must have had an origin, which in my hypothesis is the intelligent, inventive mechanism, and (b) intelligence is brought to bear when bacteria/cell communities are confronted with problems.

DAVID: I accepted a stepwise process for the IM.
dhw: You wrote: “The organism freely tries a change and God approves or alters the change. The initiative starts with the organism, not God.” How can a mechanism that freely tries a change be anything but a free mechanism for change? The next “step” according to you is a divine dabble unless the work of the autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism has had his approval.
DAVID: That is certainly stepwise, with an initial 'free' try for a change.

My focus is on the ‘free’ try, which is only possible if the organism is free to try, i.e. has an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism. How else could it be ‘free’?

DAVID: The organisms makes an adaptation and God either accepts or adjusts. But we know evolution existed. You want God to wander around befuddled. The answer is simple God prefers evolving things, the evolving universe, evolving life.
dhw: You don’t have to wander around befuddled in order to conduct a scientific experiment. I am simply offering you different theistic hypotheses that will remove the illogicality of your own hypothesis
DAVID: Your theorizing does fit a possible interpretation of past evolution, but it still presents a tentative God who is not sure of where He is going. I view God as a very purposeful guy who know exactly where He is taking things.

In other words, your interpretation of evolution’s history is not based on that history at all, but on your preconceived ideas concerning the nature of God. However, the hypothesis of an intentional free-for-all spectacle removes the “tentativeness” you don’t like. So what is your objection to that?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Tuesday, January 10, 2017, 17:33 (2874 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Of course it is caused by intelligence, but it is the intelligence that gave the cells their automatic plans of action.

dhw: The “automatic plans of action” are the undiscovered 3.8-billion-year-old instructions which your God apparently implanted in the first cells to enable bacteria to solve every individual problem they will encounter throughout life’s history. And you state this as if it were a fact!

What is fact is that the processes in any active cell or bacteria are highly complex and well-coordinated. To me it is obvious that such planning requires a superior mind as the source.

QUOTE: "Immune cells such as macrophages sense biochemical cues in their environment to track down invaders and eventually engulf and neutralise them." (David’s bold)

dhw: Yes of course they sense biochemical clues. All organisms sense cues in their environment, and the senses – of whatever kind – work automatically. Intelligence is the faculty that uses the information provided by the senses.

Or uses intelligently designed responses.


David’s comment: It is my belief that the way bacteria live and work is exactly mimicked by the cells in our bodies working for us. I view early evolution as a developmental process to prepare for these cells.

dhw: That is my view too: that the intelligent behaviour of bacteria is exactly mimicked by the intelligent behaviour of cells/cell communities. Most of these activities are automatic, but (a) these activities must have had an origin, which in my hypothesis is the intelligent, inventive mechanism, and (b) intelligence is brought to bear when bacteria/cell communities are confronted with problems.

And I respond that such an inventive mechanism cannot develop by chance. It must have been provided.

DAVID: Your theorizing does fit a possible interpretation of past evolution, but it still presents a tentative God who is not sure of where He is going. I view God as a very purposeful guy who know exactly where He is taking things.

dhw: In other words, your interpretation of evolution’s history is not based on that history at all, but on your preconceived ideas concerning the nature of God. However, the hypothesis of an intentional free-for-all spectacle removes the “tentativeness” you don’t like. So what is your objection to that?

I simply don't think God was ever tentative in his use of evolutionary processes to produce the universe as it exists now with life on Earth, which He also developed by an evolutionary process. Free-for-all implies tentativeness on the part of God. You are right, I don't think God slows that degree of freedom.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Wednesday, January 11, 2017, 12:37 (2873 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Of course it is caused by intelligence, but it is the intelligence that gave the cells their automatic plans of action.
dhw: The “automatic plans of action” are the undiscovered 3.8-billion-year-old instructions which your God apparently implanted in the first cells to enable bacteria to solve every individual problem they will encounter throughout life’s history. And you state this as if it were a fact!
DAVID: What is fact is that the processes in any active cell or bacteria are highly complex and well-coordinated. To me it is obvious that such planning requires a superior mind as the source.

We agree that the complexity and coordination require intelligence. Why is it obvious that this must be in the form of a divine, undiscovered 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme or the direct intervention of your God?

David’s comment: It is my belief that the way bacteria live and work is exactly mimicked by the cells in our bodies working for us…
dhw: That is my view too: that the intelligent behaviour of bacteria is exactly mimicked by the intelligent behaviour of cells/cell communities. Most of these activities are automatic, but (a) these activities must have had an origin, which in my hypothesis is the intelligent, inventive mechanism, and (b) intelligence is brought to bear when bacteria/cell communities are confronted with problems.
DAVID: And I respond that such an inventive mechanism cannot develop by chance. It must have been provided.

I have always allowed for the mechanism to be God-given. You now appear to have accepted that the mechanism is free to make its own changes, i.e. that it is autonomous, intelligent and inventive (though your God can dabble if wants to). Thank you. In return, I concede that we do not know the extent of its inventive capabilities. That is why my explanation of evolution’s history is a hypothesis.

DAVID: Your theorizing does fit a possible interpretation of past evolution, but it still presents a tentative God who is not sure of where He is going. I view God as a very purposeful guy who know exactly where He is taking things.
dhw: In other words, your interpretation of evolution’s history is not based on that history at all, but on your preconceived ideas concerning the nature of God. However, the hypothesis of an intentional free-for-all spectacle removes the “tentativeness” you don’t like. So what is your objection to that?
DAVID: I simply don't think God was ever tentative in his use of evolutionary processes to produce the universe as it exists now with life on Earth, which He also developed by an evolutionary process. Free-for-all implies tentativeness on the part of God. You are right, I don't think God slows that degree of freedom.

There is nothing tentative about the free-for-all spectacle: your God creates a show of changing environments and life forms, the unpredictability of which is integral to the entertainment (think sport, literature, cinema). Maybe humans, the most unpredictable of all species, were dabbled. The point is that this scenario does not require us to tie ourselves in knots trying to explain why your God specifically designed different pre-whales, the monarch’s lifestyle, the weaverbird’s nest, and the parasite that gets pooped by the starling so that it can zombify the pill bug so that the pill bug gets eaten by the starling so that life can go on so that humans can evolve.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 12, 2017, 01:49 (2873 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: We agree that the complexity and coordination require intelligence. Why is it obvious that this must be in the form of a divine, undiscovered 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme or the direct intervention of your God?

Because a rocky initial Earth has no provision to provide intelligence when life started

DAVID: And I respond that such an inventive mechanism cannot develop by chance. It must have been provided.

dhw:I have always allowed for the mechanism to be God-given. You now appear to have accepted that the mechanism is free to make its own changes, i.e. that it is autonomous, intelligent and inventive (though your God can dabble if wants to). Thank you. In return, I concede that we do not know the extent of its inventive capabilities. That is why my explanation of evolution’s history is a hypothesis.

Something or someone created the existing complexity. I still insist the planning has to be at the level of a brilliant mind.

dhw: There is nothing tentative about the free-for-all spectacle: your God creates a show of changing environments and life forms, the unpredictability of which is integral to the entertainment (think sport, literature, cinema). Maybe humans, the most unpredictable of all species, were dabbled. The point is that this scenario does not require us to tie ourselves in knots trying to explain why your God specifically designed different pre-whales, the monarch’s lifestyle, the weaverbird’s nest, and the parasite that gets pooped by the starling so that it can zombify the pill bug so that the pill bug gets eaten by the starling so that life can go on so that humans can evolve.

You may be tied in knots; I am not. God works by evolving things, the universe, plants and canimals. Evolution under God creates complexity in an ever increasing manner, and is set up to provide a balance in nature, supplying food for all.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Thursday, January 12, 2017, 12:41 (2872 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: We agree that the complexity and coordination require intelligence. Why is it obvious that this must be in the form of a divine, undiscovered 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme or the direct intervention of your God?
DAVID: Because a rocky initial Earth has no provision to provide intelligence when life started.

That is why I keep repeating that your God may have provided organisms with the intelligence to complexify and coordinate. Why is it obvious that he did not do so, and that their complexification and coordination were only possible through divine preprogramming and/or dabbling? Or is it obvious? Our next exchange illustrates the constantly shifting patterns of your thinking:

dhw: You now appear to have accepted that the mechanism is free to make its own changes, i.e. that it is autonomous, intelligent and inventive (though your God can dabble if wants to). Thank you. In return, I concede that we do not know the extent of its inventive capabilities. That is why my explanation of evolution’s history is a hypothesis.
DAVID: Something or someone created the existing complexity. I still insist the planning has to be at the level of a brilliant mind.

So please explain how an organism can be “free” to make its own changes (which God either approves or rejects), without having its own autonomous inventive intelligence to make changes?

dhw: There is nothing tentative about the free-for-all spectacle: your God creates a show of changing environments and life forms, the unpredictability of which is integral to the entertainment (think sport, literature, cinema). Maybe humans, the most unpredictable of all species, were dabbled. The point is that this scenario does not require us to tie ourselves in knots trying to explain why your God specifically designed different pre-whales, the monarch’s lifestyle, the weaverbird’s nest, and the parasite that gets pooped by the starling so that it can zombify the pill bug so that the pill bug gets eaten by the starling so that life can go on so that humans can evolve.
DAVID: You may be tied in knots; I am not. God works by evolving things, the universe, plants and animals. Evolution under God creates complexity in an ever increasing manner, and is set up to provide a balance in nature, supplying food for all.

You forgot to mention that you think the whole process was geared to the production of humans. I agree that if God exists, he must have set up the process of evolution, and of course the advance from bacteria entails increasing complexity. However, evolution has not provided a balance in nature supplying food for all, because 99% of species have gone extinct. Or do you merely mean God designed all the species (broad sense), lifestyles and wonders so that there would be enough food for all those for whom there would be enough food (and therefore not enough for all those for whom there would not be enough)? The balance of nature has constantly shifted and continues to shift, largely because there is not enough food for all. But do please untie the knots for me through just one simple example, and explain once and for all what you see as the logical connection between your God’s personal design of the weaverbird’s nest and the provision of “food for all” so that humans could evolve.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 12, 2017, 23:19 (2872 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: That is why I keep repeating that your God may have provided organisms with the intelligence to complexify and coordinate. Why is it obvious that he did not do so, and that their complexification and coordination were only possible through divine preprogramming and/or dabbling? Or is it obvious? Our next exchange illustrates the constantly shifting patterns of your thinking:

DAVID: Something or someone created the existing complexity. I still insist the planning has to be at the level of a brilliant mind.

dhw: So please explain how an organism can be “free” to make its own changes (which God either approves or rejects), without having its own autonomous inventive intelligence to make changes?

God is behind all of the evolutionary process. I've agreed that organisms can make some changes through epigenetic mechanisms. But God is in final control.


dhw:You forgot to mention that you think the whole process was geared to the production of humans. I agree that if God exists, he must have set up the process of evolution, and of course the advance from bacteria entails increasing complexity. However, evolution has not provided a balance in nature supplying food for all, because 99% of species have gone extinct.

They are extinct because evolution advances to the most complex survivors. How would you otherwise define evolution? The balance is always there, we've agreed.

dhw: But do please untie the knots for me through just one simple example, and explain once and for all what you see as the logical connection between your God’s personal design of the weaverbird’s nest and the provision of “food for all” so that humans could evolve.

The weaverbird is part of a niche ecosystem, in balance in nature, nothing more.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Friday, January 13, 2017, 12:55 (2871 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Something or someone created the existing complexity. I still insist the planning has to be at the level of a brilliant mind.
dhw: So please explain how an organism can be “free” to make its own changes (which God either approves or rejects), without having its own autonomous inventive intelligence to make changes?
DAVID: God is behind all of the evolutionary process. I've agreed that organisms can make some changes through epigenetic mechanisms. But God is in final control.

In order to avoid all future misunderstandings, do you accept that the changes made by these “epigenetic mechanisms” are neither programmed nor dabbled by your God but are made autonomously, even if your God set up the mechanism in the first place, and even if he can change the changes?

dhw:You forgot to mention that you think the whole process was geared to the production of humans. I agree that if God exists, he must have set up the process of evolution, and of course the advance from bacteria entails increasing complexity. However, evolution has not provided a balance in nature supplying food for all, because 99% of species have gone extinct.
DAVID: They are extinct because evolution advances to the most complex survivors. How would you otherwise define evolution? The balance is always there, we've agreed.

No agreement. “The balance is always there” is meaningless to me. It is life that has always been there since it started. The balance is always shifting, and evolution does not advance to the most complex survivors, but to the survivors that are able to find enough food to stay alive. These survivors include the least complex organisms, such as bacteria. I would define evolution as the process by which all organisms except the first have developed from earlier organisms.

dhw: But do please untie the knots for me through just one simple example, and explain once and for all what you see as the logical connection between your God’s personal design of the weaverbird’s nest and the provision of “food for all” so that humans could evolve.

DAVID: The weaverbird is part of a niche ecosystem, in balance in nature, nothing more.

All organisms are part of their “niche ecosystem”, and it is the nest not the bird that constitutes the natural wonder, and I don’t know what you mean by “in balance in nature”. However, your response makes it clear that you cannot find any connection between the nest and the provision of “food for all” so that humans could evolve. In other words, since you can think of “nothing more”, you cannot find any reason at all why your God should programme or personally instruct the weaverbird to tie its complicated knots. So why not allow for the possibility that he didn’t do it, but that he gave the weaverbird, the wasp, the barnacle, and our now famous plagiorhyncus cylindraceus the wherewithal to do it themselves?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Friday, January 13, 2017, 20:11 (2871 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: God is behind all of the evolutionary process. I've agreed that organisms can make some changes through epigenetic mechanisms. But God is in final control.


dhw: In order to avoid all future misunderstandings, do you accept that the changes made by these “epigenetic mechanisms” are neither programmed nor dabbled by your God but are made autonomously, even if your God set up the mechanism in the first place, and even if he can change the changes?

I agree to this interpretation.

dhw: “The balance is always there” is meaningless to me. It is life that has always been there since it started. The balance is always shifting, and evolution does not advance to the most complex survivors, but to the survivors that are able to find enough food to stay alive. These survivors include the least complex organisms, such as bacteria. I would define evolution as the process by which all organisms except the first have developed from earlier organisms.

Yes. Present organisms developed from past ones. Didn't evolution advance to multicellularity and extreme complexity, or not? Evolve implies change, and the change we see is more and more advanced complexity. Bacteria can adapt to anything, which continuously raises the issue, why did evolution bother to advance beyond them? My answer still is there is a built in drive to complexity. No other explanation is possible.


DAVID: The weaverbird is part of a niche ecosystem, in balance in nature, nothing more.

dhw: All organisms are part of their “niche ecosystem”, and it is the nest not the bird that constitutes the natural wonder, and I don’t know what you mean by “in balance in nature”. However, your response makes it clear that you cannot find any connection between the nest and the provision of “food for all” so that humans could evolve.

You are confusing the home the weaverbird lives in with the birds' place in natural balance. The nest has nothing to do with the arrival of humans. The bird lives in an eco-niche and happens to have an unexplained nest pattern. Your home has no influence on the fact that you are a renowned playwright and children's book author. We both cannot explain the complexity of the nest or why the bird uses that particular style. But the bird is part of its niche in nature.

dhw: In other words, since you can think of “nothing more”, you cannot find any reason at all why your God should programme or personally instruct the weaverbird to tie its complicated knots. So why not allow for the possibility that he didn’t do it, but that he gave the weaverbird, the wasp, the barnacle, and our now famous plagiorhyncus cylindraceus the wherewithal to do it themselves?

Because the complexity implies the need for planning beyond the apparent capabilities of the animals involved.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Saturday, January 14, 2017, 12:51 (2870 days ago) @ David Turell

Dhw (under "zombified animals"): ...do you believe that your God personally preprogrammed or dabbled the parasite, or that he gave the parasite the intelligence to work out the zombification process (or possibly to exploit a chance discovery and pass it on to others)? If it is none of these, what is your alternative?
DAVID: […] I firmly believe the bug cannot do it on its own. God is in charge. Logically God arranged it.

But you don’t know why your God would need to programme or dabble this arrangement, which has no conceivable link with your “balance of nature” to provide food till humans can evolve (see below). However, there are tiny glimmers of hope elsewhere:

David’s comment (under “Ants plant tough seeds”): I think it is very probably that the ants figured this out for themselves. I imagine they brought some big seeds home, couldn't crack them, but didn't drag them out of the nest and were pleasantly surprised when the softer seedling popped up. The simply accepted it as a useful pattern of behaviour.

The zombie article doesn’t tell us how the parasite controls the bug’s behaviour. But maybe he was pleasantly surprised when he found that his efforts to get back into a starling made the bug behave as it does. And he then spread the good news to all his buddies, who simply accepted it as a useful pattern of behaviour.

DAVID: [...] I've agreed that organisms can make some changes through epigenetic mechanisms…
dhw: In order to avoid all future misunderstandings, do you accept that the changes made by these “epigenetic mechanisms” are neither programmed nor dabbled by your God but are made autonomously, even if your God set up the mechanism in the first place, and even if he can change the changes?
DAVID: I agree to this interpretation.

Thank you. This is progress indeed. We at last have an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism, but – my concession to you – we do not know the extent of its inventiveness.

dhw: The balance is always shifting, and evolution does not advance to the most complex survivors, but to the survivors that are able to find enough food to stay alive. These survivors include the least complex organisms, such as bacteria. I would define evolution as the process by which all organisms except the first have developed from earlier organisms.
DAVID: Yes. Present organisms developed from past ones. Didn't evolution advance to multicellularity and extreme complexity, or not? Evolve implies change, and the change we see is more and more advanced complexity. Bacteria can adapt to anything, which continuously raises the issue, why did evolution bother to advance beyond them? My answer still is there is a built in drive to complexity. No other explanation is possible.

A built-in drive to complexity does not mean, as you claimed, that 99% of species are extinct because “evolution advances to the most complex survivors”. There are survivors at all levels of complexity. Or do you really believe that every living organism now on this planet is more complex than the dinosaurs?

DAVID: The weaverbird is part of a niche ecosystem, in balance in nature, nothing more.
dhw: All organisms are part of their “niche ecosystem”, and it is the nest not the bird that constitutes the natural wonder, and I don’t know what you mean by “in balance in nature”. However, your response makes it clear that you cannot find any connection between the nest and the provision of “food for all” so that humans could evolve.
DAVID: You are confusing the home the weaverbird lives in with the birds' place in natural balance. The nest has nothing to do with the arrival of humans. The bird lives in an eco-niche and happens to have an unexplained nest pattern. […]

You have missed the point. You insist that your God designed the nest. Your defence of your preprogramming/dabbling scenario is that he was balancing nature to provide “food for all” until humans came along. The nest is my prime example precisely because there is no way you can link it to the provision of food for all until humans could evolve. So what reason do you think your God had for designing it? The next exchange clearly illustrates this dislocation in your approach.

dhw: In other words, since you can think of “nothing more”, you cannot find any reason at all why your God should programme or personally instruct the weaverbird to tie its complicated knots. So why not allow for the possibility that he didn’t do it, but that he gave the weaverbird, the wasp, the barnacle, and our now famous plagiorhyncus cylindraceus the wherewithal to do it themselves?
DAVID: Because the complexity implies the need for planning beyond the apparent capabilities of the animals involved.

You can find no reason why your God would design all these lifestyles and wonders, but you refuse to consider the possibility that he did not do so, because despite all the examples that illustrate the intelligence of our fellow creatures, you cannot accept that you may have underestimated their capabilities.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 14, 2017, 21:47 (2870 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: The zombie article doesn’t tell us how the parasite controls the bug’s behaviour. But maybe he was pleasantly surprised when he found that his efforts to get back into a starling made the bug behave as it does. And he then spread the good news to all his buddies, who simply accepted it as a useful pattern of behaviour.

Zombification is an effect on the brain, taking control. This means modifying neuronal outputs; not simple as in your supposition.


dhw: A built-in drive to complexity does not mean, as you claimed, that 99% of species are extinct because “evolution advances to the most complex survivors”. There are survivors at all levels of complexity. Or do you really believe that every living organism now on this planet is more complex than the dinosaurs?

The dinosaurs had very tiny brains. They were just very nasty lizards. the mammals are much more complex and much brighter.

DAVID: You are confusing the home the weaverbird lives in with the birds' place in natural balance. The nest has nothing to do with the arrival of humans. The bird lives in an eco-niche and happens to have an unexplained nest pattern. […]


dhw: You have missed the point. You insist that your God designed the nest. Your defence of your preprogramming/dabbling scenario is that he was balancing nature to provide “food for all” until humans came along. The nest is my prime example precisely because there is no way you can link it to the provision of food for all until humans could evolve. So what reason do you think your God had for designing it?

You have skipped over my point. The weaverbird has a place in an eco-niche as a living organism. The nest is just his home and it beside the point for the balance of nature supplying food. The nest has no link to food. I don't know why the nest is built like it is except it may protect the chicks from predators and the bird's lifestyle safe. I think God designed it.


dhw: In other words, since you can think of “nothing more”, you cannot find any reason at all why your God should programme or personally instruct the weaverbird to tie its complicated knots. So why not allow for the possibility that he didn’t do it, but that he gave the weaverbird, the wasp, the barnacle, and our now famous plagiorhyncus cylindraceus the wherewithal to do it themselves?

DAVID: Because the complexity implies the need for planning beyond the apparent capabilities of the animals involved.

dhw: You can find no reason why your God would design all these lifestyles and wonders, but you refuse to consider the possibility that he did not do so, because despite all the examples that illustrate the intelligence of our fellow creatures, you cannot accept that you may have underestimated their capabilities.

And I think y0u have highly overestimated them

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Sunday, January 15, 2017, 11:59 (2869 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: ...maybe he was pleasantly surprised when he found that his efforts to get back into a starling made the bug behave as it does. And he then spread the good news to all his buddies, who simply accepted it as a useful pattern of behaviour.
DAVID: Zombification is an effect on the brain, taking control. This means modifying neuronal outputs; not simple as in your supposition.

The article doesn’t tell us why the bug did “crazy things”. But my point is the general one that I see no reason why your God should have to design these lifestyles when it’s quite feasible that the organisms work them out for themselves, or even – as you imagined in the case of the ants and the nuts – discover something useful by accident and have the intelligence to exploit it and pass it on.

dhw: A built-in drive to complexity does not mean, as you claimed, that 99% of species are extinct because “evolution advances to the most complex survivors”. There are survivors at all levels of complexity. Or do you really believe that every living organism now on this planet is more complex than the dinosaurs?
DAVID: The dinosaurs had very tiny brains. They were just very nasty lizards. the mammals are much more complex and much brighter.

The brain is not the only complex organ, we don’t know how intelligent dinosaurs were, and not all surviving organisms are mammals.

dhw: The nest is my prime example precisely because there is no way you can link it to the provision of food for all until humans could evolve. So what reason do you think your God had for designing it?
DAVID: You have skipped over my point. The weaverbird has a place in an eco-niche as a living organism. The nest is just his home and it beside the point for the balance of nature supplying food. The nest has no link to food. I don't know why the nest is built like it is except it may protect the chicks from predators and the bird's lifestyle safe. I think God designed it.

That IS my point! It is the obvious example of the dislocation in your scenario. Why did your God have to give special instructions to the weaverbird, whose nest has nothing to do with your favourite reading of God’s motives (balance of nature to provide food in preparation for humans)? This is the basis of my next comment:

dhw: You can find no reason why your God would design all these lifestyles and wonders, but you refuse to consider the possibility that he did not do so, because despite all the examples that illustrate the intelligence of our fellow creatures, you cannot accept that you may have underestimated their capabilities.
DAVID: And I think you have highly overestimated them.

Maybe. But I must confess I find the hypothesis far more credible than the first living cells having to pass on a 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme for weaverbird nest- building, pill-bug zombifying, spider-zombifying, butterfly migration etc. etc. – or the alternative of your God’s personal tuition – in order to “balance nature”.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 15, 2017, 19:05 (2869 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Zombification is an effect on the brain, taking control. This means modifying neuronal outputs; not simple as in your supposition.

dhw: The article doesn’t tell us why the bug did “crazy things”. But my point is the general one that I see no reason why your God should have to design these lifestyles when it’s quite feasible that the organisms work them out for themselves, or even – as you imagined in the case of the ants and the nuts – discover something useful by accident and have the intelligence to exploit it and pass it on.

I described how zombification must occur. It is a well-known phenomenon. The ants/ seeds story is a very straight forward series of decisions, some but not much intelligence needed.

DAVID: The dinosaurs had very tiny brains. They were just very nasty lizards. the mammals are much more complex and much brighter.

dhw: The brain is not the only complex organ, we don’t know how intelligent dinosaurs were, and not all surviving organisms are mammals.

Mammal brains are more complex than any of their other organs. Dinosaur brains were little more than large ganglions, collections of neurons without many circuits.

DAVID: You have skipped over my point. The weaverbird has a place in an eco-niche as a living organism. The nest is just his home and it beside the point for the balance of nature supplying food. The nest has no link to food. I don't know why the nest is built like it is except it may protect the chicks from predators and the bird's lifestyle safe. I think God designed it.

That IS my point! It is the obvious example of the dislocation in your scenario. Why did your God have to give special instructions to the weaverbird, whose nest has nothing to do with your favourite reading of God’s motives (balance of nature to provide food in preparation for humans)? This is the basis of my next comment:

dhw: You can find no reason why your God would design all these lifestyles and wonders, but you refuse to consider the possibility that he did not do so, because despite all the examples that illustrate the intelligence of our fellow creatures, you cannot accept that you may have underestimated their capabilities.
DAVID: And I think you have highly overestimated them.

dhw: Maybe. But I must confess I find the hypothesis far more credible than the first living cells having to pass on a 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme for weaverbird nest- building, pill-bug zombifying, spider-zombifying, butterfly migration etc. etc. – or the alternative of your God’s personal tuition – in order to “balance nature”.

Now that Neil has upgraded your computer, aren't you impressed by how much its software can do? The initial cells of life are still evolving over a four billion year history. Origin of life and evolution are a perfect continuum of softweare control in the genome. Very obvious to me.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Monday, January 16, 2017, 12:55 (2868 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Zombification is an effect on the brain, taking control. This means modifying neuronal outputs; not simple as in your supposition.
dhw: The article doesn’t tell us why the bug did “crazy things”. But my point is the general one that I see no reason why your God should have to design these lifestyles when it’s quite feasible that the organisms work them out for themselves, or even – as you imagined in the case of the ants and the nuts – discover something useful by accident and have the intelligence to exploit it and pass it on.
DAVID: I described how zombification must occur. It is a well-known phenomenon. The ants/ seeds story is a very straight forward series of decisions, some but not much intelligence needed.

Still doesn’t explain why your God had to preprogramme or personally dabble each one. I’m happy with “some” intelligence. My point is that we really don’t know HOW intelligent these organisms might be.

DAVID: Mammal brains are more complex than any of their other organs. Dinosaur brains were little more than large ganglions, collections of neurons without many circuits.

This doesn’t mean that “evolution advances to the most complex survivors”. And so I repeat: the brain is not the only complex organ, we don’t know how intelligent dinosaurs were, and not all surviving organisms are mammals.

DAVID: Now that Neil has upgraded your computer, aren't you impressed by how much its software can do? The initial cells of life are still evolving over a four billion year history. Origin of life and evolution are a perfect continuum of software control in the genome. Very obvious to me.

So let me once more try to get this clear. Are you saying that your God put millions of individual, personally designed nest-building, zombifying, migrating, camouflaging, parasitizing, adapting, innovating pieces of software in the very first cells, and/or personally updated the software as new problems or new opportunities arose? And also that your God preprogrammed or updated the software to delete 99% of all these in order to “balance nature” as and when his preprogrammed or personally updated cosmic and earthly environmental software made the necessary changes to conditions? And all these millions of programmes and/or updatings of organisms and of the environment were designed (and/or deleted) for the sake of humans? And it is not possible that the perfect continuum from the origin of life to all the products of evolution extant and extinct is the result of a single piece of software enabling reproduction and variation through an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Monday, January 16, 2017, 16:25 (2868 days ago) @ dhw


Still doesn’t explain why your God had to preprogramme or personally dabble each one. I’m happy with “some” intelligence. My point is that we really don’t know HOW intelligent these organisms might be.

DAVID: Mammal brains are more complex than any of their other organs. Dinosaur brains were little more than large ganglions, collections of neurons without many circuits.

dhw: This doesn’t mean that “evolution advances to the most complex survivors”. And so I repeat: the brain is not the only complex organ, we don’t know how intelligent dinosaurs were, and not all surviving organisms are mammals.

Brain power is a consequence of neuron count and network complexity. Based on their ganglion size, the dinosaurs were dumb. They had one in the head and one back at the base of the tail. Most other survivors of Chicxulub are not as complex as mammals.


dhw: So let me once more try to get this clear. Are you saying that your God put millions of individual, personally designed nest-building, zombifying, migrating, camouflaging, parasitizing, adapting, innovating pieces of software in the very first cells, and/or personally updated the software as new problems or new opportunities arose? And also that your God preprogrammed or updated the software to delete 99% of all these in order to “balance nature” as and when his preprogrammed or personally updated cosmic and earthly environmental software made the necessary changes to conditions? And all these millions of programmes and/or updatings of organisms and of the environment were designed (and/or deleted) for the sake of humans? And it is not possible that the perfect continuum from the origin of life to all the products of evolution extant and extinct is the result of a single piece of software enabling reproduction and variation through an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism?

We haven't found the inventive mechanism beyond epigenetic modifications of existing species. I work with what we know from scientific research. I cannot accept your supposition until a methodology for speciation is found. As far as I am concerned God invented and is in control of evolution. He invented the DNA code and it is His to fiddle with.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 11:13 (2867 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Mammal brains are more complex than any of their other organs. Dinosaur brains were little more than large ganglions, collections of neurons without many circuits.
dhw: This doesn’t mean that “evolution advances to the most complex survivors”. And so I repeat: the brain is not the only complex organ, we don’t know how intelligent dinosaurs were, and not all surviving organisms are mammals.
DAVID: Brain power is a consequence of neuron count and network complexity. Based on their ganglion size, the dinosaurs were dumb. They had one in the head and one back at the base of the tail. Most other survivors of Chicxulub are not as complex as mammals.

Your claim that “evolution advances to the most complex survivors” has nothing to do with intelligence! Complexity is not confined to the brain or to intelligence! Your focus on intelligence is symptomatic of your desire to prove that your God preprogrammed or dabbled the whole history of evolution to culminate in humans, but you always leave out the fact that evolution so far has also “advanced” to the mosquito, the duckbilled platypus, the parasitic wasp and barnacle, the camouflaged cuttlefish, the migratory monarch etc. etc., all deliberately planned or dabbled by your God. All more complex (and more intelligent) than the dinosaurs?

dhw: So let me once more try to get this clear. Are you saying that your God put millions of individual, personally designed nest-building, zombifying, migrating, camouflaging, parasitizing, adapting, innovating pieces of software in the very first cells, and/or personally updated the software as new problems or new opportunities arose? And also that your God preprogrammed or updated the software to delete 99% of all these in order to “balance nature” as and when his preprogrammed or personally updated cosmic and earthly environmental software made the necessary changes to conditions? And all these millions of programmes and/or updatings of organisms and of the environment were designed (and/or deleted) for the sake of humans? And it is not possible that the perfect continuum from the origin of life to all the products of evolution extant and extinct is the result of a single piece of software enabling reproduction and variation through an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism?
DAVID: We haven't found the inventive mechanism beyond epigenetic modifications of existing species. I work with what we know from scientific research. I cannot accept your supposition until a methodology for speciation is found. As far as I am concerned God invented and is in control of evolution. He invented the DNA code and it is His to fiddle with.

My hypothesis (not supposition) IS a methodology for speciation, as is your divine computer programme plus dabbles for all the organic and environmental changes noted above. No proposed method is “known” from scientific research. You accept your own, which has not been found, and reject mine because it has not been found. A prime case of double standards. My hypothesis allows for your God to have invented evolution and to have invented the DNA code and to fiddle with it.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Tuesday, January 17, 2017, 20:07 (2867 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Brain power is a consequence of neuron count and network complexity. Based on their ganglion size, the dinosaurs were dumb. They had one in the head and one back at the base of the tail. Most other survivors of Chicxulub are not as complex as mammals.

dhw: but you always leave out the fact that evolution so far has also “advanced” to the mosquito, the duckbilled platypus, the parasitic wasp and barnacle, the camouflaged cuttlefish, the migratory monarch etc. etc., all deliberately planned or dabbled by your God. All more complex (and more intelligent) than the dinosaurs?

It is my belief, based in part on milk production, live birth and brain power, that mammals are much more complex than the animals you have listed.
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DAVID: We haven't found the inventive mechanism beyond epigenetic modifications of existing species. I work with what we know from scientific research. I cannot accept your supposition until a methodology for speciation is found. As far as I am concerned God invented and is in control of evolution. He invented the DNA code and it is His to fiddle with.

dhw: My hypothesis allows for your God to have invented evolution and to have invented the DNA code and to fiddle with it.

A statement I can completely accept.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 12:52 (2866 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Brain power is a consequence of neuron count and network complexity. Based on their ganglion size, the dinosaurs were dumb. They had one in the head and one back at the base of the tail. Most other survivors of Chicxulub are not as complex as mammals.
dhw: but you always leave out the fact that evolution so far has also “advanced” to the mosquito, the duckbilled platypus, the parasitic wasp and barnacle, the camouflaged cuttlefish, the migratory monarch etc. etc., all deliberately planned or dabbled by your God. All more complex (and more intelligent) than the dinosaurs?
DAVID: It is my belief, based in part on milk production, live birth and brain power, that mammals are much more complex than the animals you have listed.

I agree. Thank you. It is therefore absurd to argue that “evolution advances to the most complex survivors” when evolution has clearly led to survivors at all levels of complexity, and in your version God has deliberately guided it all the way to the weaverbird’s nest, the parasitic wasp and barnacle, the camouflaged cuttlefish etc. as well as to mammals.

DAVID: We haven't found the inventive mechanism beyond epigenetic modifications of existing species. I work with what we know from scientific research. I cannot accept your supposition until a methodology for speciation is found. As far as I am concerned God invented and is in control of evolution. He invented the DNA code and it is His to fiddle with.
dhw: My hypothesis allows for your God to have invented evolution and to have invented the DNA code and to fiddle with it.
DAVID: A statement I can completely accept.

I hope you will also accept that your rejection of my hypothesis on the grounds that the autonomous inventive mechanism has not been found reeks of double standards, since your own version of the mechanism (the undiscovered computer programme plus the unobserved divine dabbling – both of which are unknown to scientific research) has not been found either.

QUOTE: (from "Fine-Tuning": ...a benevolent God would want to create the physical laws so that life-conducive universes would be overwhelmingly likely. (David’s comment: A poor argument from religious belief. He may not be benevolent, and He may continuously guide the process until He has his desired result. His argument sounds like Deism: God started the process and then let it continue on its own.)

I like your agnosticism concerning the nature of God. Why is it more likely that your nobody-knows-what-he's like God guided the process than that he let it continue on its own?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 18:19 (2866 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: It is my belief, based in part on milk production, live birth and brain power, that mammals are much more complex than the animals you have listed.

dhw: I agree. Thank you. It is therefore absurd to argue that “evolution advances to the most complex survivors” when evolution has clearly led to survivors at all levels of complexity, and in your version God has deliberately guided it all the way to the weaverbird’s nest, the parasitic wasp and barnacle, the camouflaged cuttlefish etc. as well as to mammals.

We are arguing a side issue. Of course there branches of the bush that are less complex than the latter more complex arrivals. But overall life forms proceeded from simple to more complex. That is the history of evolution.

dhw: My hypothesis allows for your God to have invented evolution and to have invented the DNA code and to fiddle with it.

DAVID: A statement I can completely accept.

dhw: I hope you will also accept that your rejection of my hypothesis on the grounds that the autonomous inventive mechanism has not been found reeks of double standards, since your own version of the mechanism (the undiscovered computer programme plus the unobserved divine dabbling – both of which are unknown to scientific research) has not been found either.

Not finding God's program is not equal to the debate over the necessity for a mind doing all the planning. A mind is required, not might be, as in your so-called theistic positions.


dhw: QUOTE: (from "Fine-Tuning": ...a benevolent God would want to create the physical laws so that life-conducive universes would be overwhelmingly likely.

(David’s comment: A poor argument from religious belief. He may not be benevolent, and He may continuously guide the process until He has his desired result. His argument sounds like Deism: God started the process and then let it continue on its own.)


dhw: I like your agnosticism concerning the nature of God. Why is it more likely that your nobody-knows-what-he's like God guided the process than that he let it continue on its own?

As I've explained, because of the requirement for intense mental planning, which only God can do.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Thursday, January 19, 2017, 13:19 (2865 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: It is my belief, based in part on milk production, live birth and brain power, that mammals are much more complex than the animals you have listed.
dhw: I agree. Thank you. It is therefore absurd to argue that “evolution advances to the most complex survivors” when evolution has clearly led to survivors at all levels of complexity, and in your version God has deliberately guided it all the way to the weaverbird’s nest, the parasitic wasp and barnacle, the camouflaged cuttlefish etc. as well as to mammals.
DAVID: We are arguing a side issue. Of course there branches of the bush that are less complex than the latter more complex arrivals. But overall life forms proceeded from simple to more complex. That is the history of evolution.

It was you who created the side issue with your statement that “evolution advances to the most complex survivors” – which was perhaps a roundabout attempt to tell us that evolution advances to your God’s purpose, which is humans. That life forms proceeded from simple to more complex is a very different statement which no evolutionist can possibly deny.

dhw: My hypothesis allows for your God to have invented evolution and to have invented the DNA code and to fiddle with it.
DAVID: A statement I can completely accept.
dhw: I hope you will also accept that your rejection of my hypothesis on the grounds that the autonomous inventive mechanism has not been found reeks of double standards, since your own version of the mechanism (the undiscovered computer programme plus the unobserved divine dabbling – both of which are unknown to scientific research) has not been found either.
DAVID: Not finding God's program is not equal to the debate over the necessity for a mind doing all the planning. A mind is required, not might be, as in your so-called theistic positions.

Once again you are switching from the way evolution works to the source of the mechanism. These are two different discussions. You reject the possibility that your God might have created an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism to drive evolution. And you reject it because the mechanism hasn’t been found. Nor has the divine 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme you prefer to my mechanism, and no one has observed God dabbling. Double standards.

QUOTE (from "Fine-Tuning": ...a benevolent God would want to create the physical laws so that life-conducive universes would be overwhelmingly likely.
(David’s comment: A poor argument from religious belief. He may not be benevolent, and He may continuously guide the process until He has his desired result. His argument sounds like Deism: God started the process and then let it continue on its own.)
dhw: I like your agnosticism concerning the nature of God. Why is it more likely that your nobody-knows-what-he's like God guided the process than that he let it continue on its own?
DAVID: As I've explained, because of the requirement for intense mental planning, which only God can do.

Why can’t your God have intensely planned life and then let it continue on its own? Isn’t that precisely what you imagine he has done with humans and their free will?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 19, 2017, 15:07 (2865 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Not finding God's program is not equal to the debate over the necessity for a mind doing all the planning. A mind is required, not might be, as in your so-called theistic positions.

dhw: Once again you are switching from the way evolution works to the source of the mechanism. These are two different discussions. You reject the possibility that your God might have created an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism to drive evolution. And you reject it because the mechanism hasn’t been found. Nor has the divine 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme you prefer to my mechanism, and no one has observed God dabbling. Double standards.

I have always said an IM is a possibility, with God watching and in ultimate control. No double standard. Your autonomous IM smells of a way to get rid of God. Maybe, in your view, evolution proceeded with a miraculously appearing IM without God.

DAVID: As I've explained, because of the requirement for intense mental planning, which only God can do.


dhw: Why can’t your God have intensely planned life and then let it continue on its own? Isn’t that precisely what you imagine he has done with humans and their free will?

You have introduced consciousness in this suggestion. That is a major different set of circumstances, a non-material state while simple evolution of life is material.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Friday, January 20, 2017, 17:33 (2864 days ago) @ David Turell

David's comment under “biological complexity”): The blood white cells act intelligently. But they are acting under intelligent instructions, not that they are innately intelligent on their own….
dhw: Please explain “under intelligent instructions”. Do you mean your God preprogrammed this intelligent behaviour 3.8 billion years ago, to be passed down by the very first cells, or your God intervenes whenever the cells have a problem?
DAVID: I have the same old problem trying to differentiate between pre-planning or dabbling. No matter, God is in control.

My “same old problem” is that you seem to have your God personally intervening, or loading the first cells with billions of programmes to cope with every difficulty that even the most basic forms of life will ever encounter (not to mention all the innovations and natural wonders of evolution). Bad luck on those that die. The programme never reached them, or perhaps God was too busy that day to come to their aid. There has to be an alternative to this theory. So why not consider the possibility that your God enabled the cells to work out solutions for themselves?

DAVID: I have always said an IM is a possibility, with God watching and in ultimate control. No double standard.

Not “always” in line with my own, but it’s true that you did recently acknowledge that an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism was possible, with God only intervening if he felt it necessary. My thanks for that. However, you also wrote: “I cannot accept your supposition until a methodology for speciation is found.” The double standard lies in the fact that you DO accept your own hypothesis, although no “methodology for speciation” has been found.

DAVID: Your autonomous IM smells of a way to get rid of God. Maybe, in your view, evolution proceeded with a miraculously appearing IM without God.

How often do I have to repeat that my IM may have been invented by your God? It is an alternative to your preprogramming and dabbling as an explanation of how evolution works, and it’s a poor defence of your hypothesis to claim that my theistic alternative is atheistic.

dhw: Why can’t your God have intensely planned life and then let it continue on its own? Isn’t that precisely what you imagine he has done with humans and their free will?
DAVID: You have introduced consciousness in this suggestion. That is a major different set of circumstances, a non-material state while simple evolution of life is material.

You have missed the point. You refuse to accept the possibility that God might allow life to follow its own course – i.e. that he would sacrifice control. Human free will is an analogy. If he is prepared to let humans do their own thing, why would he not be prepared to let the cells do their own thing? Sacrificing control is the point of the analogy.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Friday, January 20, 2017, 21:18 (2864 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I have the same old problem trying to differentiate between pre-planning or dabbling. No matter, God is in control.

dhw: My “same old problem” is that you seem to have your God personally intervening, or loading the first cells with billions of programmes to cope with every difficulty that even the most basic forms of life will ever encounter (not to mention all the innovations and natural wonders of evolution). Bad luck on those that die. The programme never reached them, or perhaps God was too busy that day to come to their aid. There has to be an alternative to this theory. So why not consider the possibility that your God enabled the cells to work out solutions for themselves?

Because I see evidence they have the smarts to do it. the changes in the gaps is generally too complex.

DAVID: You have introduced consciousness in this suggestion. That is a major different set of circumstances, a non-material state while simple evolution of life is material.

dhw: You have missed the point. You refuse to accept the possibility that God might allow life to follow its own course – i.e. that he would sacrifice control. Human free will is an analogy. If he is prepared to let humans do their own thing, why would he not be prepared to let the cells do their own thing? Sacrificing control is the point of the analogy.

Because I think humans are the goal and most likely won't arrive by a chance process of evolution.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Saturday, January 21, 2017, 13:26 (2863 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I have the same old problem trying to differentiate between pre-planning or dabbling. No matter, God is in control.
dhw: My “same old problem” is that you seem to have your God personally intervening, or loading the first cells with billions of programmes to cope with every difficulty that even the most basic forms of life will ever encounter (not to mention all the innovations and natural wonders of evolution). Bad luck on those that die. The programme never reached them, or perhaps God was too busy that day to come to their aid. There has to be an alternative to this theory. So why not consider the possibility that your God enabled the cells to work out solutions for themselves?
DAVID: Because I see evidence they have the smarts to do it. the changes in the gaps is generally too complex.

I presume you mean “no evidence”. Let’s put this another way, then. You find it difficult to believe that your God could have given organisms the intelligence to work out their own solutions, innovations and wonders, and there is no evidence that they have such intelligence. However, you have no difficulty believing that your God provided the first cells with a computer programme for every solution etc., or that he personally stepped in if his programme didn’t cover the problem, and yet there is no evidence for either of these propositions. And you wonder why I accuse you of double standards.

DAVID: You have introduced consciousness in this suggestion. That is a major different set of circumstances, a non-material state while simple evolution of life is material.
dhw: You have missed the point. You refuse to accept the possibility that God might allow life to follow its own course – i.e. that he would sacrifice control. Human free will is an analogy. If he is prepared to let humans do their own thing, why would he not be prepared to let the cells do their own thing? Sacrificing control is the point of the analogy.
DAVID: Because I think humans are the goal and most likely won't arrive by a chance process of evolution.

It doesn’t have to be chance. My perhaps God-given autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism makes invention deliberate, and in any case it allows for God to dabble. Once again: you believe that having dabbled or preprogrammed humans, he has ceded control to their free will. That is the analogy: that he allowed organisms to work out their own solutions/variations/adaptations/improvements (though he could dabble if he wanted to). As mentioned before, you have actually agreed to this possibility, but for some reason you offer your agreement, then snatch it back again because you are so fixed on your own hypothesis of total control through preprogramming and dabbling. If you stand by your agreement that the autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism is possible, and you stop insisting that only God could plan or dabble every solution/innovation/ natural wonder, we could finally move on.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 21, 2017, 15:23 (2863 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Because I see evidence they have the smarts to do it. the changes in the gaps is generally too complex.

dhw: I presume you mean “no evidence”. ... And you wonder why I accuse you of double standards.

Yes, no evidence. If you would study the degree of physiological and phenotypic change in a new species you would understand why complex planning is required. It is no double standard to accept this requirement for speciation. You want God to endow prior organisms with this capacity for evolutionary complexity, and I don't believe He has. The only organism that has that possible capacity are current humans and we have to turn to natural mechanisms for guidance: Velco as an example. Brainy analysis is logically required. Your autonomous IM is a proposal with no logic behind it.

dhw: You have missed the point. You refuse to accept the possibility that God might allow life to follow its own course – i.e. that he would sacrifice control. Human free will is an analogy. If he is prepared to let humans do their own thing, why would he not be prepared to let the cells do their own thing? Sacrificing control is the point of the analogy.

DAVID: Because I think humans are the goal and most likely won't arrive by a chance process of evolution.

dhw: It doesn’t have to be chance. ...If you stand by your agreement that the autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism is possible, and you stop insisting that only God could plan or dabble every solution/innovation/ natural wonder, we could finally move on.

You admit God might dabble. So, God is in ultimate control. That is my point.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Sunday, January 22, 2017, 12:59 (2862 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Because I see evidence they have the smarts to do it. the changes in the gaps is generally too complex.
dhw: I presume you mean “no evidence”. ... And you wonder why I accuse you of double standards.

DAVID: Yes, no evidence. If you would study the degree of physiological and phenotypic change in a new species you would understand why complex planning is required. It is no double standard to accept this requirement for speciation. You want God to endow prior organisms with this capacity for evolutionary complexity, and I don't believe He has. The only organism that has that possible capacity are current humans and we have to turn to natural mechanisms for guidance: Velco as an example. Brainy analysis is logically required. Your autonomous IM is a proposal with no logic behind it.

I am well aware of your objections even to the theistic version of my inventive mechanism hypothesis, which I accept, but as an explanation of evolution I find it infinitely more logical than a mechanism that has to pass on billions of divine computer programmes for all solutions, innovations and natural wonders, or your God personally teaching bacteria to solve problems and weaverbirds to build nests, all for the sake of producing humans. And I’m afraid that rejection on the grounds that there is no evidence for the existence of the mechanism applies just as much to your hypothesis as to mine. Double standards.

dhw: It doesn’t have to be chance. ...If you stand by your agreement that the autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism is possible, and you stop insisting that only God could plan or dabble every solution/innovation/ natural wonder, we could finally move on.
DAVID: You admit God might dabble. So, God is in ultimate control. That is my point.

If God exists, of course he is in ultimate control. But that does not mean that he could not have deliberately created a system that gives organisms the freedom to work out their own innovations, lifestyles and natural wonders.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 22, 2017, 15:04 (2862 days ago) @ dhw


dhw; I am well aware of your objections even to the theistic version of my inventive mechanism hypothesis, which I accept, but as an explanation of evolution I find it infinitely more logical than a mechanism that has to pass on billions of divine computer programmes for all solutions, innovations and natural wonders, or your God personally teaching bacteria to solve problems and weaverbirds to build nests, all for the sake of producing humans. And I’m afraid that rejection on the grounds that there is no evidence for the existence of the mechanism applies just as much to your hypothesis as to mine. Double standards.

Your theistic inventive mechanism constitutes a judgement of God's software writing ability: You want organisms to use His IM sequentially to conduct evolution and I think He could have written the software for all of it from the very beginning. Not double standards but two differing judgments of God's ability.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Monday, January 23, 2017, 16:05 (2861 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I am well aware of your objections even to the theistic version of my inventive mechanism hypothesis, which I accept, but as an explanation of evolution I find it infinitely more logical than a mechanism that has to pass on billions of divine computer programmes for all solutions, innovations and natural wonders, or your God personally teaching bacteria to solve problems and weaverbirds to build nests, all for the sake of producing humans. And I’m afraid that rejection on the grounds that there is no evidence for the existence of the mechanism applies just as much to your hypothesis as to mine. Double standards.

DAVID: Your theistic inventive mechanism constitutes a judgement of God's software writing ability: You want organisms to use His IM sequentially to conduct evolution and I think He could have written the software for all of it from the very beginning. Not double standards but two differing judgments of God's ability.

My hypothesis has absolutely nothing to do with God’s capabilities. I am simply looking for the most likely explanation of how evolution works, and my theistic version seems to me more logical and infinitely less convoluted than yours. Ah well, this makes a change from the argument that mine is unacceptable because there is no evidence for it, whereas yours is acceptable even though there is no evidence for it. (Double standards.)

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Monday, January 23, 2017, 19:07 (2861 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Your theistic inventive mechanism constitutes a judgement of God's software writing ability: You want organisms to use His IM sequentially to conduct evolution and I think He could have written the software for all of it from the very beginning. Not double standards but two differing judgments of God's ability.

dhw: My hypothesis has absolutely nothing to do with God’s capabilities. I am simply looking for the most likely explanation of how evolution works, and my theistic version seems to me more logical and infinitely less convoluted than yours. Ah well, this makes a change from the argument that mine is unacceptable because there is no evidence for it, whereas yours is acceptable even though there is no evidence for it. (Double standards.)

Since the full scope of God's abilities are not known to either of us, each of us is allowed to have our own concept of those abilities. No double standard, just a difference in opinion. I am allowed to differ from your approach from the picket fence.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 14:29 (2860 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Your theistic inventive mechanism constitutes a judgement of God's software writing ability: You want organisms to use His IM sequentially to conduct evolution and I think He could have written the software for all of it from the very beginning. Not double standards but two differing judgments of God's ability.

dhw: My hypothesis has absolutely nothing to do with God’s capabilities. I am simply looking for the most likely explanation of how evolution works, and my theistic version seems to me more logical and infinitely less convoluted than yours. Ah well, this makes a change from the argument that mine is unacceptable because there is no evidence for it, whereas yours is acceptable even though there is no evidence for it. (Double standards.)

DAVID: Since the full scope of God's abilities are not known to either of us, each of us is allowed to have our own concept of those abilities. No double standard, just a difference in opinion. I am allowed to differ from your approach from the picket fence.

Yes to all of that. But the disagreement here is not over God’s abilities or over my agnosticism. It is over 1) different interpretations of how your God might organize evolution (no double standards), and 2) your non-acceptance of my hypothesis because there is no evidence, whereas you accept your own although there is no evidence. Double standards. But this is peanuts compared to the next convolution:

BBELLA: Why would God have to use an inventive mechanism or write the software for all life, when he could just BE the IM (I AM) and/or BE the software?
DAVID: That is part of my dilemma: God could have written all the software in the genome in the beginning of life or He could ride herd and originate every step forward. Either way He is in total control, of which fact I am convinced.

If you agree with BBella that your God could actually BE the inventive mechanism inside every organism, you have just added to your dilemma. You claim that some organisms may look as if they’re intelligent, but you don’t accept that they are, or that they could be intelligent enough to do their own inventing. Apparently, however, they clearly are intelligent and even inventive enough to do their own inventing so long as we call that intelligence “God” instead of an inventive mechanism possibly invented by your God. (Presumably the 99% extinction rate would then count as divine species suicide rather than natural death, since your God is always in control.)

BBella’s suggestion need not involve God at all if we apply my version of panpsychism to all organisms. Then each one has its own individual “intelligence”, which may or may not be adaptable or creative. In my view just as likely and just as unlikely as any other hypothesis.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 15:32 (2860 days ago) @ dhw

BBELLA: Why would God have to use an inventive mechanism or write the software for all life, when he could just BE the IM (I AM) and/or BE the software?

[/i]

DAVID: That is part of my dilemma: God could have written all the software in the genome in the beginning of life or He could ride herd and originate every step forward. Either way He is in total control, of which fact I am convinced.

dhw: If you agree with BBella that your God could actually BE the inventive mechanism inside every organism, you have just added to your dilemma. You claim that some organisms may look as if they’re intelligent, but you don’t accept that they are, or that they could be intelligent enough to do their own inventing. Apparently, however, they clearly are intelligent and even inventive enough to do their own inventing so long as we call that intelligence “God” instead of an inventive mechanism possibly invented by your God. (Presumably the 99% extinction rate would then count as divine species suicide rather than natural death, since your God is always in control.)

BBella’s suggestion need not involve God at all if we apply my version of panpsychism to all organisms. Then each one has its own individual “intelligence”, which may or may not be adaptable or creative. In my view just as likely and just as unlikely as any other hypothesis.

I'm happily content in my own position. God controls evolution, with only the mechanism debated. Speciation requires it based on current scientific knowledge of the needs of the process. That is, the changes are too complex for a chance attempt at it.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 13:56 (2859 days ago) @ David Turell

BBELLA: Why would God have to use an inventive mechanism or write the software for all life, when he could just BE the IM (I AM) and/or BE the software?

DAVID: That is part of my dilemma: God could have written all the software in the genome in the beginning of life or He could ride herd and originate every step forward. Either way He is in total control, of which fact I am convinced.

dhw: If you agree with BBella that your God could actually BE the inventive mechanism inside every organism, you have just added to your dilemma. You claim that some organisms may look as if they’re intelligent, but you don’t accept that they are, or that they could be intelligent enough to do their own inventing. Apparently, however, they clearly are intelligent and even inventive enough to do their own inventing so long as we call that intelligence “God” instead of an inventive mechanism possibly invented by your God. (Presumably the 99% extinction rate would then count as divine species suicide rather than natural death, since your God is always in control.)
BBella’s suggestion need not involve God at all if we apply my version of panpsychism to all organisms. Then each one has its own individual “intelligence”, which may or may not be adaptable or creative. In my view just as likely and just as unlikely as any other hypothesis.

DAVID: I'm happily content in my own position. God controls evolution, with only the mechanism debated. Speciation requires it based on current scientific knowledge of the needs of the process. That is, the changes are too complex for a chance attempt at it.

Neither BBella’s hypothesis nor mine has anything to do with chance, and both quite explicitly allow for God. The debate is indeed about the mechanism, and you clearly prefer not to acknowledge the anomaly in your argument as explained in my post above, as well as in your non-acceptance of mine on grounds of no evidence while you accept your own although there is no evidence.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 26, 2017, 02:02 (2859 days ago) @ dhw

BBELLA: Why would God have to use an inventive mechanism or write the software for all life, when he could just BE the IM (I AM) and/or BE the software?

DAVID: That is part of my dilemma: God could have written all the software in the genome in the beginning of life or He could ride herd and originate every step forward. Either way He is in total control, of which fact I am convinced.

dhw: If you agree with BBella that your God could actually BE the inventive mechanism inside every organism, you have just added to your dilemma. You claim that some organisms may look as if they’re intelligent, but you don’t accept that they are, or that they could be intelligent enough to do their own inventing. Apparently, however, they clearly are intelligent and even inventive enough to do their own inventing so long as we call that intelligence “God” instead of an inventive mechanism possibly invented by your God. (Presumably the 99% extinction rate would then count as divine species suicide rather than natural death, since your God is always in control.)
BBella’s suggestion need not involve God at all if we apply my version of panpsychism to all organisms. Then each one has its own individual “intelligence”, which may or may not be adaptable or creative. In my view just as likely and just as unlikely as any other hypothesis.

DAVID: I'm happily content in my own position. God controls evolution, with only the mechanism debated. Speciation requires it based on current scientific knowledge of the needs of the process. That is, the changes are too complex for a chance attempt at it.

dhw: Neither BBella’s hypothesis nor mine has anything to do with chance, and both quite explicitly allow for God. The debate is indeed about the mechanism, and you clearly prefer not to acknowledge the anomaly in your argument as explained in my post above, as well as in your non-acceptance of mine on grounds of no evidence while you accept your own although there is no evidence.

If God is the IM He is in total control, as I've agreed. No chance involved. I'm the one who raises the issue of pre-planning or dabbling since I can see the possibility of both. Free-wheeling autonomous IM's are not in my considerations, ever! You are the one finding dilemmas for me!

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Thursday, January 26, 2017, 11:38 (2858 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Neither BBella’s hypothesis nor mine has anything to do with chance, and both quite explicitly allow for God. The debate is indeed about the mechanism, and you clearly prefer not to acknowledge the anomaly in your argument as explained in my post above, as well as in your non-acceptance of mine on grounds of no evidence while you accept your own although there is no evidence.

DAVID: If God is the IM He is in total control, as I've agreed. No chance involved. I'm the one who raises the issue of pre-planning or dabbling since I can see the possibility of both. Free-wheeling autonomous IM's are not in my considerations, ever! You are the one finding dilemmas for me!

You quite rightly say that the outward appearance of intelligence does not prove that an organism is intelligent – it could be a robot, obeying instructions. (That also applies to humans.) In the case of bacteria, you resolutely reject the very possibility of autonomous intelligence. However, if you accept the possibility that your God IS the IM inside every organism, then you must accept the possibility that the outward intelligence of bacteria IS intelligence. It’s your God responding, for example, to each challenge as it arises, or exploiting each opportunity – but directly from inside each organism. And since some bacteria fail to adapt while others succeed, and the same applies to all species (with a 99% extinction rate), you’ll have to agree that the divine IM works differently in individual organisms as well as in different species. Therefore each IM is an autonomous piece of your God. And you can’t possibly tell the difference between it being an autonomous piece of your God and an autonomous intelligence invented by your God. And so, according to you, an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism is possible if God IS the mechanism, but it’s "not in your considerations, ever!" if God has invented it. I wouldn’t call that a dilemma. I’d call it disjointed thinking.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Friday, January 27, 2017, 00:53 (2858 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: If God is the IM He is in total control, as I've agreed. No chance involved. I'm the one who raises the issue of pre-planning or dabbling since I can see the possibility of both. Free-wheeling autonomous IM's are not in my considerations, ever! You are the one finding dilemmas for me!

dhw: You quite rightly say that the outward appearance of intelligence does not prove that an organism is intelligent – it could be a robot, obeying instructions. (That also applies to humans.) In the case of bacteria, you resolutely reject the very possibility of autonomous intelligence. However, if you accept the possibility that your God IS the IM inside every organism, then you must accept the possibility that the outward intelligence of bacteria IS intelligence. It’s your God responding, for example, to each challenge as it arises, or exploiting each opportunity – but directly from inside each organism. And since some bacteria fail to adapt while others succeed, and the same applies to all species (with a 99% extinction rate), you’ll have to agree that the divine IM works differently in individual organisms as well as in different species. Therefore each IM is an autonomous piece of your God. And you can’t possibly tell the difference between it being an autonomous piece of your God and an autonomous intelligence invented by your God. And so, according to you, an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism is possible if God IS the mechanism, but it’s "not in your considerations, ever!" if God has invented it. I wouldn’t call that a dilemma. I’d call it disjointed thinking.

I read the whole paragraph and agreed with it until the final bit. Of course it is possible God is in everything, or that He could invent an inventive mechanism itself as His double ganger. As the first possibility has Him in total control, why should He produce an IM that is totally autonomous, giving up that total control? That is your disjoined thinking.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Friday, January 27, 2017, 12:18 (2857 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Free-wheeling autonomous IM's are not in my considerations, ever!

dhw: ...if you accept the possibility that your God IS the IM inside every organism, then you must accept the possibility that the outward intelligence of bacteria IS intelligence. It’s your God responding, for example, to each challenge as it arises, or exploiting each opportunity – but directly from inside each organism. And since some bacteria fail to adapt while others succeed, and the same applies to all species (with a 99% extinction rate), you’ll have to agree that the divine IM works differently in individual organisms as well as in different species. Therefore each IM is an autonomous piece of your God. And you can’t possibly tell the difference between it being an autonomous piece of your God and an autonomous intelligence invented by your God. And so, according to you, an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism is possible if God IS the mechanism, but it’s "not in your considerations, ever!" if God has invented it. I wouldn’t call that a dilemma. I’d call it disjointed thinking.

DAVID: I read the whole paragraph and agreed with it until the final bit. Of course it is possible God is in everything, or that He could invent an inventive mechanism itself as His double ganger. As the first possibility has Him in total control, why should He produce an IM that is totally autonomous, giving up that total control? That is your disjoined thinking.

I have already answered your question many times, in my hypothetical theistic explanation of the higgledy-piggledy history of life’s comings and goings. God would give up that total control because he wanted to. Why? Perhaps because the creation of life was an experiment, a show, an entertainment, a means of relieving eternal boredom. Do you enjoy shows that are utterly predictable? My hypothesis still leaves room for dabbling, though. Experiments can lead to new ideas and new experiments, and he can resume control if he wants to. Maybe humans are the culmination of the experiment – I have no idea what lies ahead in the next 3.8 billion years. But if you can indulge in reading the mind of God (time doesn’t matter to him, he created the universe for the sake of humans, humans matter to him, he wants a relationship with humans), then so can I, and I would suggest that my hypothesis at least offers a more convincing explanation of the seemingly random comings and goings than your total control in order to “balance nature” in order to produce humans. But I’m pleased to see that although autonomous intelligent inventive mechanisms are “not in your considerations, ever!” unless we call them “God”, you agree that they are possible. Since there is no more evidence for your hypotheses than mine, I can only assume you refuse to consider mine because you happen to know what matters to God and I don’t!:-(

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Friday, January 27, 2017, 15:29 (2857 days ago) @ dhw

dhw:I have already answered your question many times, in my hypothetical theistic explanation of the higgledy-piggledy history of life’s comings and goings. God would give up that total control because he wanted to. Why? Perhaps because the creation of life was an experiment, a show, an entertainment, a means of relieving eternal boredom. Do you enjoy shows that are utterly predictable?

Again your humanizing assumptions that God needs entertaining. How do you know He was bored during His eternity? I don't.

dhw: I would suggest that my hypothesis at least offers a more convincing explanation of the seemingly random comings and goings than your total control in order to “balance nature” in order to produce humans.

More convincing only to you. Humans are here against all odds.

dhw: But I’m pleased to see that although autonomous intelligent inventive mechanisms are “not in your considerations, ever!” unless we call them “God”, you agree that they are possible.

Autonomous IM's with follow up dabbles, as you've agreed, are fine.

dhw:Since there is no more evidence for your hypotheses than mine, I can only assume you refuse to consider mine because you happen to know what matters to God and I don’t!:-(

I add things up alternatively to the way you do. After all, I accept God exists, and you play at it.;-)

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Saturday, January 28, 2017, 12:35 (2856 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw:I have already answered your question many times, in my hypothetical theistic explanation of the higgledy-piggledy history of life’s comings and goings. God would give up that total control because he wanted to. Why? Perhaps because the creation of life was an experiment, a show, an entertainment, a means of relieving eternal boredom. Do you enjoy shows that are utterly predictable?
DAVID: Again your humanizing assumptions that God needs entertaining. How do you know He was bored during His eternity? I don't.

I don’t “know” anything. You asked me why he would be willing to sacrifice control, and I have offered you a hypothetical explanation. How can one possibly attribute motivation without humanizing? My hypothesis is no more “humanizing” (and in my view is considerably more logical) than yours that he preprogrammed or dabbled every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder in order to balance life in order to produce humans, because they matter to him and he wants to have a relationship with them although he chooses to remain hidden. (And the relationship becomes even more bizarre if he doesn't even have any thoughts or feelings like our own!)

DAVID: More convincing only to you. Humans are here against all odds.

So is the duckbilled platypus, And that doesn’t de-“humanize” or explain the logic of your hypothesis.

dhw: But I’m pleased to see that although autonomous intelligent inventive mechanisms are “not in your considerations, ever!” unless we call them “God”, you agree that they are possible.
DAVID: Autonomous IM's with follow up dabbles, as you've agreed, are fine.

From ”not in my considerations, ever!” to “fine” is progress indeed. Who knows, maybe one day you’ll agree that the weaverbird, the parasitic wasps, the monarch, the cuttlefish and even bacteria might just possibly have done some self-organizing rather than relying on God’s 3.8-billion-year computer programme or personal intervention.

dhw:Since there is no more evidence for your hypotheses than mine, I can only assume you refuse to consider mine because you happen to know what matters to God and I don’t! :-(

DAVID: I add things up alternatively to the way you do. After all, I accept God exists, and you play at it. ;-)

No question that we add things up differently. I don’t know why you think your acceptance of God’s existence somehow blots out all the anomalies in your two hypotheses. Even you have admitted that mine cannot be faulted in the way it fits the history of evolution. :-D

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 28, 2017, 15:55 (2856 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Again your humanizing assumptions that God needs entertaining. How do you know He was bored during His eternity? I don't.

dhw: I don’t “know” anything. You asked me why he would be willing to sacrifice control, and I have offered you a hypothetical explanation. How can one possibly attribute motivation without humanizing? My hypothesis is no more “humanizing” (and in my view is considerably more logical) than yours that he preprogrammed or dabbled every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder in order to balance life in order to produce humans, because they matter to him and he wants to have a relationship with them although he chooses to remain hidden. (And the relationship becomes even more bizarre if he doesn't even have any thoughts or feelings like our own!)

God may be all purpose and no emotion. You keep adding the latter, by having Him look for entertainment. We don't know if He has "thoughts or feelings like our own".


DAVID: I add things up alternatively to the way you do. After all, I accept God exists, and you play at it. ;-)

dhw: No question that we add things up differently. I don’t know why you think your acceptance of God’s existence somehow blots out all the anomalies in your two hypotheses. Even you have admitted that mine cannot be faulted in the way it fits the history of evolution. :-D

You see anomalies where I see logical purpose. And yes, your view in its contorted way fits the story of evolution.;-)

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Sunday, January 29, 2017, 13:18 (2855 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Again your humanizing assumptions that God needs entertaining. How do you know He was bored during His eternity? I don't.
dhw: I don’t “know” anything. You asked me why he would be willing to sacrifice control, and I have offered you a hypothetical explanation. How can one possibly attribute motivation without humanizing? My hypothesis is no more “humanizing” (and in my view is considerably more logical) than yours that he preprogrammed or dabbled every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder in order to balance life in order to produce humans, because they matter to him and he wants to have a relationship with them although he chooses to remain hidden. (And the relationship becomes even more bizarre if he doesn't even have any thoughts or feelings like our own!)

DAVID: God may be all purpose and no emotion. You keep adding the latter, by having Him look for entertainment. We don't know if He has "thoughts or feelings like our own".

Once again, we don’t “know” anything. We don’t even “know” if your God exists! And so we speculate. When I asked you why you thought your God specially wanted to create humans, you suggested that he might want a relationship with us. Why is that less “humanizing” than my suggestion that he created the great, changing experiment of life in order to entertain himself?

DAVID: I add things up alternatively to the way you do. After all, I accept God exists, and you play at it.
dhw: No question that we add things up differently. I don’t know why you think your acceptance of God’s existence somehow blots out all the anomalies in your two hypotheses. Even you have admitted that mine cannot be faulted in the way it fits the history of evolution.
DAVID: You see anomalies where I see logical purpose. And yes, your view in its contorted way fits the story of evolution.

Here again are the two hypotheses:

1) God designed the weaverbird’s nest, taught the blue wasp to eat the crypt gall wasp, guided the monarch butterfly, and created but destroyed 99% of species in order to balance nature, because his purpose from the very beginning was to produce humans with whom he wanted a relationship, although he keeps himself hidden and may not even have any thoughts or feelings in common with the humans with whom he wants a relationship.

2) God designed a mechanism that might enable some organisms to cope with or exploit changing environments in their own individual ways, while others would fail to cope, thereby providing the ever changing spectacle of evolution for his own enjoyment. He may occasionally have dabbled if he got fed up with the status quo or suddenly had a new idea.

Both hypotheses are pure speculation. Please explain why 2) does not offer a logical purpose, and tell us in what way it contorts the history of evolution.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 29, 2017, 15:16 (2855 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: You see anomalies where I see logical purpose. And yes, your view in its contorted way fits the story of evolution.


dhw: Here again are the two hypotheses:

1) God designed the weaverbird’s nest, taught the blue wasp to eat the crypt gall wasp, guided the monarch butterfly, and created but destroyed 99% of species in order to balance nature, because his purpose from the very beginning was to produce humans with whom he wanted a relationship, although he keeps himself hidden and may not even have any thoughts or feelings in common with the humans with whom he wants a relationship.

2) God designed a mechanism that might enable some organisms to cope with or exploit changing environments in their own individual ways, while others would fail to cope, thereby providing the ever changing spectacle of evolution for his own enjoyment. He may occasionally have dabbled if he got fed up with the status quo or suddenly had a new idea.

Both hypotheses are pure speculation. Please explain why 2) does not offer a logical purpose, and tell us in what way it contorts the history of evolution.

Yes, both fit the history. #2 is very humanizing approach with its central idea that God wants entertainment and/or enjoyment. I am offering the contention that God wanted to produce humans without presupposing His motives, which we cannot know. The only possibility I know for motive is a relationship. #1 is a great fit.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Monday, January 30, 2017, 14:42 (2854 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: You see anomalies where I see logical purpose. And yes, your view in its contorted way fits the story of evolution.
dhw: Here again are the two hypotheses ( I should have said the two theistic hypotheses that we have been discussing, as of course there are others):

1) God designed the weaverbird’s nest, taught the blue wasp to eat the crypt gall wasp, guided the monarch butterfly, and created but destroyed 99% of species in order to balance nature, because his purpose from the very beginning was to produce humans with whom he wanted a relationship, although he keeps himself hidden and may not even have any thoughts or feelings in common with the humans with whom he wants a relationship.

2) God designed a mechanism that might enable some organisms to cope with or exploit changing environments in their own individual ways, while others would fail to cope, thereby providing the ever changing spectacle of evolution for his own enjoyment. He may occasionally have dabbled if he got fed up with the status quo or suddenly had a new idea.
Both hypotheses are pure speculation. Please explain why 2) does not offer a logical purpose, and tell us in what way it contorts the history of evolution.

DAVID: Yes, both fit the history. #2 is very humanizing approach with its central idea that God wants entertainment and/or enjoyment. I am offering the contention that God wanted to produce humans without presupposing His motives, which we cannot know. The only possibility I know for motive is a relationship. #1 is a great fit.

You asked me what motive your God might have for sacrificing control, and I gave you an answer: his enjoyment. I asked you what motive God might have for gearing the whole of evolution to the production of humans, and you gave me an answer: he wanted a relationship. There are no “presuppositions” – we each gave a hypothetical answer to the question we were asked.

The central idea of #1 is to fit the vast variety of life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and, in 99% of cases, extinct to a single motive (although you say we cannot know your God’s motives): the production of humans. The utterly nebulous concept of “balance of nature” - which, in the context of evolutionary history, even you agreed means nothing more than that life continues - provides no link at all between all its different forms, lifestyles etc. and the production of humans, as is painfully obvious from the example of the weaverbird’s nest. The argument that humans were not “necessary”, and are here against all the odds, applies to all multicellular organisms, since bacteria have survived perfectly well from the beginning. These are the anomalies that I see.

As regards logical purpose and contortions, I don’t know how you can separate purpose from motive, and I can find no logic in the “links” I have described and criticized above. The very idea that a particular nest, parasitic wasps, a butterfly’s migration, a fish’s camouflage, and the extinction of 99% of species, all had to be individually planned or dabbled to ensure the arrival of humans seems to me as contorted as an idea can get. On the other hand, you can find no anomalies or contortions in #2. I rest my case, m’lud, and if there is a jury out there, I await their verdict with calm confidence: namely, that the dhw hypothesis (only a hypothesis - not a statement of faith) is hereby declared innocent of all charges of illogic and contortion, whereas the dt hypothesis...hmmmm...:-(

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Monday, January 30, 2017, 18:12 (2854 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: 1) God designed the weaverbird’s nest, taught the blue wasp to eat the crypt gall wasp, guided the monarch butterfly, and created but destroyed 99% of species in order to balance nature, because his purpose from the very beginning was to produce humans with whom he wanted a relationship, although he keeps himself hidden and may not even have any thoughts or feelings in common with the humans with whom he wants a relationship.

2) God designed a mechanism that might enable some organisms to cope with or exploit changing environments in their own individual ways, while others would fail to cope, thereby providing the ever changing spectacle of evolution for his own enjoyment. He may occasionally have dabbled if he got fed up with the status quo or suddenly had a new idea.
Both hypotheses are pure speculation. Please explain why 2) does not offer a logical purpose, and tell us in what way it contorts the history of evolution.

DAVID: Yes, both fit the history. #2 is very humanizing approach with its central idea that God wants entertainment and/or enjoyment. I am offering the contention that God wanted to produce humans without presupposing His motives, which we cannot know. The only possibility I know for motive is a relationship. #1 is a great fit.

dhw; You asked me what motive your God might have for sacrificing control, and I gave you an answer: his enjoyment.

In human psychology parlance seeking entertainment is a form of 'pass timing' a way of filling time with no purpose. I see purpose in God's activities. You don't.

dhw: The central idea of #1 is to fit the vast variety of life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and, in 99% of cases, extinct to a single motive (although you say we cannot know your God’s motives): the production of humans.

With their unexplainable ability of using consciousness or abstract thought.

dhw: The utterly nebulous concept of “balance of nature” - which, in the context of evolutionary history, even you agreed means nothing more than that life continues - provides no link at all between all its different forms, lifestyles etc. and the production of humans, as is painfully obvious from the example of the weaverbird’s nest. The argument that humans were not “necessary”, and are here against all the odds, applies to all multicellular organisms, since bacteria have survived perfectly well from the beginning. These are the anomalies that I see.

Again your total confusion over the necessary balance of nature which interlocks various micro-niches so everyone has an energy supply. Humans and their consciousness ability totally unnecessary! Bacteria had no need to evolve to multicellular to arrange the road to us. You have it entirely backwards.


dhw: As regards logical purpose and contortions, I don’t know how you can separate purpose from motive, and I can find no logic in the “links” I have described and criticized above. The very idea that a particular nest, parasitic wasps, a butterfly’s migration, a fish’s camouflage, and the extinction of 99% of species, all had to be individually planned or dabbled to ensure the arrival of humans seems to me as contorted as an idea can get.

Your problem lies in not recognizing the importance of the balance of nature to supply energy for all living organisms.

dhw: On the other hand, you can find no anomalies or contortions in #2. I rest my case, m’lud, and if there is a jury out there, I await their verdict with calm confidence: namely, that the dhw hypothesis (only a hypothesis - not a statement of faith) is hereby declared innocent of all charges of illogic and contortion, whereas the dt hypothesis...hmmmm...:-(

Your lawyers wig is overheating your brain. Our vast difference of opinion involves the fact that I am working from a position of logical faith.;-)

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Tuesday, January 31, 2017, 21:12 (2853 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Yes, both fit the history. #2 is very humanizing approach with its central idea that God wants entertainment and/or enjoyment. I am offering the contention that God wanted to produce humans without presupposing His motives, which we cannot know. The only possibility I know for motive is a relationship.
Dhw: You asked me what motive your God might have for sacrificing control, and I gave you an answer: his enjoyment.
DAVID: In human psychology parlance seeking entertainment is a form of 'pass timing' a way of filling time with no purpose. I see purpose in God's activities. You don't.

Enjoyment and the relief of boredom are a purpose in themselves. You are the one who claims to be looking for purpose, but purpose doesn’t stop at the production of something: one should ask what is the purpose of the product. I theorized that your God produced an autonomous mechanism, you asked why he would sacrifice control, and I theorized that he could enjoy the show. (You think enjoyment is "humanizing".) Now it’s my turn. You theorize that he controlled the mechanism (by preprogramming or dabbling) so that he could have a relationship with humans. So why do you think your God wants a relationship with humans?

dhw: The central idea of #1 is to fit the vast variety of life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and, in 99% of cases, extinct to a single motive (although you say we cannot know your God’s motives): the production of humans.
DAVID: With their unexplainable ability of using consciousness or abstract thought.

According to you, God dabbled in order to produce our enhanced consciousness, so why did he need to design the weaverbird’s nest, the monarch’s migratory lifestyle, the cuttlefish’s camouflage and the duckbilled platypus if he could dabble humans anyway?

DAVID: Again your total confusion over the necessary balance of nature which interlocks various micro-niches so everyone has an energy supply. Humans and their consciousness ability totally unnecessary! Bacteria had no need to evolve to multicellular to arrange the road to us. You have it entirely backwards.

“Everyone” does not have an energy supply. 99% of species went extinct. You have already agreed that the balance of nature merely means that life goes on in whatever form: what survives survives, and what doesn’t survive doesn’t survive. And so there will still be a “balance of nature” even if bacteria are the only creatures left on earth. As for necessity, NO multicellular creatures were “necessary”. So why did your God create the “unnecessary” mosquito, duckbilled platypus, tsetse fly, and the “unnecessary” mammoth, triceratops, tyrannosaurus….plus all the other millions of species and lifestyles and wonders extant and extinct? They aren’t/weren’t even “necessary” for the production of humans, since you think your God had to do a special dabble.

Xxxx

David’s comment (under "Balance of nature"): Once again we see the scientific approach to how beneficial a proper balance is to areas of the Earth. If you think this is unimportant, ask yourself why are these efforts being tried in this instance and in New Zealand where there are removing foreign feral species, brought there in a recognized mistaken way.

Once again the “balance” you are talking about here is restricted to what humans consider to be the most beneficial combinations of plant and animal life. Of course this is important to areas of the Earth. Now tell me what it has to do with your God deliberately designing and then destroying millions of species, lifestyles and natural wonders, simply in order to produce humans. In the context of evolutionary history, you have already agreed that all you mean by it is that life goes on.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Wednesday, February 01, 2017, 00:49 (2853 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: In human psychology parlance seeking entertainment is a form of 'pass timing' a way of filling time with no purpose. I see purpose in God's activities. You don't.

dhw: Enjoyment and the relief of boredom are a purpose in themselves. You are the one who claims to be looking for purpose, but purpose doesn’t stop at the production of something: one should ask what is the purpose of the product. I theorized that your God produced an autonomous mechanism, you asked why he would sacrifice control, and I theorized that he could enjoy the show. (You think enjoyment is "humanizing".) Now it’s my turn. You theorize that he controlled the mechanism (by preprogramming or dabbling) so that he could have a relationship with humans. So why do you think your God wants a relationship with humans?

Because He gave us the mental ability to communicate with Him.


dhw: According to you, God dabbled in order to produce our enhanced consciousness, so why did he need to design the weaverbird’s nest, the monarch’s migratory lifestyle, the cuttlefish’s camouflage and the duckbilled platypus if he could dabble humans anyway?

For the balance of nature to give evolutionary life the energy it needs.


dhw: “Everyone” does not have an energy supply. 99% of species went extinct. You have already agreed that the balance of nature merely means that life goes on in whatever form: what survives survives, and what doesn’t survive doesn’t survive. And so there will still be a “balance of nature” even if bacteria are the only creatures left on earth.

The balance of nature guarantees that life will go on. Evolution requires that species advance in complexity and success in living. Therefore of course, 99% go extinct! If they didn't disappear there would not be room for the rest of us.

dhw: As for necessity, NO multicellular creatures were “necessary”. So why did your God create the “unnecessary” mosquito, duckbilled platypus, tsetse fly, and the “unnecessary” mammoth, triceratops, tyrannosaurus….plus all the other millions of species and lifestyles and wonders extant and extinct? They aren’t/weren’t even “necessary” for the production of humans, since you think your God had to do a special dabble.

Again balance of nature for energy supply.


Xxxx

David’s comment (under "Balance of nature"): Once again we see the scientific approach to how beneficial a proper balance is to areas of the Earth. If you think this is unimportant, ask yourself why are these efforts being tried in this instance and in New Zealand where there are removing foreign feral species, brought there in a recognized mistaken way.

dhw: Once again the “balance” you are talking about here is restricted to what humans consider to be the most beneficial combinations of plant and animal life. Of course this is important to areas of the Earth. Now tell me what it has to do with your God deliberately designing and then destroying millions of species, lifestyles and natural wonders, simply in order to produce humans. In the context of evolutionary history, you have already agreed that all you mean by it is that life goes on.

Not all I mean and you know it. Balance is studied scientifically and the best balance can be restored: Wolves in Yellowstone has returned everything back to the way it was in the 19th century.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Wednesday, February 01, 2017, 14:03 (2852 days ago) @ David Turell

QUOTE: "[…]here is also what I call ‘the big-picture defence’, claiming that evil only appears as such from our limited perspectives. Were we able to see things from the perspective of God, we would see that, in the grand scheme of things, every apparent evil plays a necessary role in making the world more perfect".

I’ve only quoted this argument because I think it applies equally to David’s evolutionary hypothesis: if only we could see things from God’s perspective, we would see that every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder extant and extinct plays or played a necessary role in producing human beings. I see both cases as being based on the premise that no matter how illogical an argument may seem, the proponent knows God’s intentions and we should not ask awkward questions.

DAVID’S comment: My thought is the same as before. The author's mistake is the usual one, using religion as a starting point. Part of the problem is ascribing to God that He loves us. We do not know that. But God has given us a giant brain to solve the problems presented at least as far as disease presents, as asteroids present, as earthquakes and severe weather present. We have cured much disease and will do more, we can learn to redirect asteroids, and develop better warning systems for earthquakes and weather, as examples of our capabilities. I believe in a tough-love God who expects us to solve problems. Life in the Garden of Eden is easy but boring.

I like your final comment. It echoes my own hypothesis regarding God’s motive for creating life on Earth. Life in an eternal vacuum would have been easy but boring.

The remainder of your comment raises the question of what you mean by tough love and who you mean by “us”. To take one example, I can’t see any kind of love at all in the death of a child from a natural (as opposed to man-made) disease, tsunami, earthquake, flood, tornado created by your God who expects “us” to find some kind of cure or preventative measure. You said that humans matter to him, but if he doesn’t care about individuals and only about “the big picture”, regardless of the sufferings he has caused, you are coming perilously close to the hypothesis that he created all this for his own entertainment.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Wednesday, February 01, 2017, 15:34 (2852 days ago) @ dhw

QUOTE: "[…]here is also what I call ‘the big-picture defence’, claiming that evil only appears as such from our limited perspectives. Were we able to see things from the perspective of God, we would see that, in the grand scheme of things, every apparent evil plays a necessary role in making the world more perfect".

dhw: I’ve only quoted this argument because I think it applies equally to David’s evolutionary hypothesis: if only we could see things from God’s perspective, we would see that every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder extant and extinct plays or played a necessary role in producing human beings. I see both cases as being based on the premise that no matter how illogical an argument may seem, the proponent knows God’s intentions and we should not ask awkward questions.

No one knows God's intentions. We make logical guesses, and try to defend them..


DAVID’S comment: My thought is the same as before. The author's mistake is the usual one, using religion as a starting point. Part of the problem is ascribing to God that He loves us. We do not know that. But God has given us a giant brain to solve the problems presented at least as far as disease presents, as asteroids present, as earthquakes and severe weather present. We have cured much disease and will do more, we can learn to redirect asteroids, and develop better warning systems for earthquakes and weather, as examples of our capabilities. I believe in a tough-love God who expects us to solve problems. Life in the Garden of Eden is easy but boring.

dhw: I like your final comment. It echoes my own hypothesis regarding God’s motive for creating life on Earth. Life in an eternal vacuum would have been easy but boring.

The remainder of your comment raises the question of what you mean by tough love and who you mean by “us”. To take one example, I can’t see any kind of love at all in the death of a child from a natural (as opposed to man-made) disease, tsunami, earthquake, flood, tornado created by your God who expects “us” to find some kind of cure or preventative measure. You said that humans matter to him, but if he doesn’t care about individuals and only about “the big picture”, regardless of the sufferings he has caused, you are coming perilously close to the hypothesis that he created all this for his own entertainment.

"us" should be obvious. It is the human population of Earth. "Tough love" is the best way to parent. Ask my kids how I taught them to budget. We can try to explain why disease is allowed by God, but we also know viruses are used in genetic manipulations to advance evolution; tsunamis are earthquakes and without plate tectonics, there would be no life. My answer to you is there are tradeoffs that God had to allow. We really don't know if He cares about individuals. Religions hope so. Adler gives the odds as 50/50. I view God as a serious operative who never looks for entertainment as a purpose. You are humanizing him constantly.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Wednesday, February 01, 2017, 14:12 (2852 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: …You theorize that he controlled the mechanism (by preprogramming or dabbling) so that he could have a relationship with humans. So why do you think your God wants a relationship with humans?
DAVID: Because He gave us the mental ability to communicate with Him.

My fault for not phrasing my question more clearly! I suggested that he produced an autonomous mechanism so that he could enjoy watching what it came up with. Now please tell us what you think is his reason or motive for wanting to have a relationship with us.

dhw: According to you, God dabbled in order to produce our enhanced consciousness, so why did he need to design the weaverbird’s nest, the monarch’s migratory lifestyle, the cuttlefish’s camouflage and the duckbilled platypus if he could dabble humans anyway?
DAVID: For the balance of nature to give evolutionary life the energy it needs.

Yes, all living organisms need energy. How does that make the weaverbird’s nest etc. relevant to the production of humans?

dhw: “Everyone” does not have an energy supply. 99% of species went extinct. You have already agreed that the balance of nature merely means that life goes on in whatever form: what survives survives, and what doesn’t survive doesn’t survive. And so there will still be a “balance of nature” even if bacteria are the only creatures left on earth.

DAVID: The balance of nature guarantees that life will go on. Evolution requires that species advance in complexity and success in living. Therefore of course, 99% go extinct! If they didn't disappear there would not be room for the rest of us.

And so the balance of nature argument merely refers to whatever organisms happen to be in existence at any particular time. It has absolutely nothing to do with the targeted production of humans, who in any case according to you had to be specially dabbled.

David’s comment (under "Balance of nature"): Once again we see the scientific approach to how beneficial a proper balance is to areas of the Earth. If you think this is unimportant, ask yourself why are these efforts being tried in this instance and in New Zealand where there are removing foreign feral species, brought there in a recognized mistaken way.
dhw: Once again the “balance” you are talking about here is restricted to what humans consider to be the most beneficial combinations of plant and animal life.
[...] In the context of evolutionary history, you have already agreed that all you mean by it is that life goes on.

DAVID: Not all I mean and you know it. Balance is studied scientifically and the best balance can be restored: Wolves in Yellowstone has returned everything back to the way it was in the 19th century.

I don’t think any of us would dispute that harmful invaders damage the environment and destroy what we humans consider to be a healthy “balance” for ourselves and for wildlife. However, this has nothing to do with your hypothesis that God specially designed the nest, the migratory lifestyle, the camouflage etc. in order to “balance nature” in order to produce humans. And so the “invader” argument, and hence the “balance of nature” argument, is irrelevant to your anthropocentric interpretation of the whole of evolutionary history, where its meaning is nothing more than that life goes on.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Wednesday, February 01, 2017, 15:46 (2852 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Now please tell us what you think is his reason or motive for wanting to have a relationship with us.

I can turn it around on you: if we have consciousness we can communicate with Him. I can ask you why did He give us consciousness if not to communicate?


dhw: Yes, all living organisms need energy. How does that make the weaverbird’s nest etc. relevant to the production of humans?

It doesn't by itself, but it is part of a necessary pattern of the balance of nature.

dhw: And so the balance of nature argument merely refers to whatever organisms happen to be in existence at any particular time. It has absolutely nothing to do with the targeted production of humans, who in any case according to you had to be specially dabbled.

Again you ignore that the balance provides energy for life to continue so evolution can proceed.

DAVID: Not all I mean and you know it. Balance is studied scientifically and the best balance can be restored: Wolves in Yellowstone has returned everything back to the way it was in the 19th century.

dhw: I don’t think any of us would dispute that harmful invaders damage the environment and destroy what we humans consider to be a healthy “balance” for ourselves and for wildlife. However, this has nothing to do with your hypothesis that God specially designed the nest, the migratory lifestyle, the camouflage etc. in order to “balance nature” in order to produce humans. And so the “invader” argument, and hence the “balance of nature” argument, is irrelevant to your anthropocentric interpretation of the whole of evolutionary history, where its meaning is nothing more than that life goes on.

I work backward: humans are here, for no good requirement I can see when looking at the challenges to life in general. I accept that point as a given starting point to try toexplain humans. The rest of my reasoning follows from that. I'm sorry it seems so strange to you.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Thursday, February 02, 2017, 14:17 (2851 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID’S comment: […] I believe in a tough-love God who expects us to solve problems. Life in the Garden of Eden is easy but boring.
dhw: I like your final comment. It echoes my own hypothesis regarding God’s motive for creating life on Earth. Life in an eternal vacuum would have been easy but boring.
The remainder of your comment raises the question of what you mean by tough love and who you mean by “us”.
[…]
DAVID: ..."us" should be obvious. It is the human population of Earth.

So the human population matters to him, but later you say “We really don't know if He cares about individuals.” What is the human race if it’s not a collection of individuals? Frankly, if he doesn’t care about individuals, he may as well be a spectator or not there at all, but please tell us exactly what you think “matters” to him about humans.

DAVID: "Tough love" is the best way to parent. Ask my kids how I taught them to budget. We can try to explain why disease is allowed by God, but we also know viruses are used in genetic manipulations to advance evolution; tsunamis are earthquakes and without plate tectonics, there would be no life. My answer to you is there are tradeoffs that God had to allow. […] I view God as a serious operative who never looks for entertainment as a purpose. You are humanizing him constantly.

How can you discuss God’s intentions without humanizing him? Your God is a tough love parent, who expects us to solve problems like you taught your kids to budget – but this is not “humanizing” him? As for a God who you regard as being in total control but who “had to allow” tradeoffs, what forced him? Do you think he was incapable of inventing life and evolution without inflicting disease and untold suffering? Tough love parenting isn’t much help to a dead child. You view God as a “serious operative”. Why shouldn’t he be “serious” about relieving his boredom? The entertainment hypothesis is an explanation for the constantly changing patterns of evolutionary history, and you have admitted that it fits. The fact that you don’t believe it and that you have a different view of your God’s purpose is not much of an argument, especially when you avoid elaborating on that purpose, as in the next exchange:

dhw: Now please tell us what you think is his reason or motive for wanting to have a relationship with us.
DAVID: I can turn it around on you: if we have consciousness we can communicate with Him. I can ask you why did He give us consciousness if not to communicate?

By all means turn it around, but why don’t you answer my question first? You constantly inform me that you are the one looking for purpose, and so I ask you what you think is your God’s purpose in seeking a relationship with us (by which apparently you do not mean individuals but the whole human race). And may I ask what communication you have with your God? You keep telling us he is hidden, and you don’t know if he has thoughts and feelings like ours. Do you nevertheless talk to him and get a response?
In answer to your own question, what could provide greater variety of entertainment than an organism so advanced in its consciousness that it has almost unlimited potential powers of creation and destruction?

dhw: I don’t think any of us would dispute that harmful invaders damage the environment and destroy what we humans consider to be a healthy “balance” for ourselves and for wildlife. However, this has nothing to do with your hypothesis that God specially designed the nest, the migratory lifestyle, the camouflage etc. in order to “balance nature” in order to produce humans. And so the “invader” argument, and hence the “balance of nature” argument, is irrelevant to your anthropocentric interpretation of the whole of evolutionary history, where its meaning is nothing more than that life goes on.
DAVID: I work backward: humans are here, for no good requirement I can see when looking at the challenges to life in general. I accept that point as a given starting point to try to explain humans. The rest of my reasoning follows from that. I'm sorry it seems so strange to you.

I am simply pointing out that invaders disturbing the “balance of nature” have nothing to do with your God designing and destroying countless species in order to produce humans. The weaverbird and its nest, the duckbilled platypus and the camouflaged cuttlefish are also here “for no good requirement I can see when looking at the challenges to life in general”. They could have lived bacterially ever after. However, if you stand by your earlier agreement that your God may have designed an AUTONOMOUS inventive mechanism, and merely dabbled when it suited him to do so, we can drop both these illogical arguments and move on.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, February 02, 2017, 18:18 (2851 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Thursday, February 02, 2017, 18:28

dhw: So the human population matters to him, but later you say “We really don't know if He cares about individuals.” What is the human race if it’s not a collection of individuals? Frankly, if he doesn’t care about individuals, he may as well be a spectator or not there at all, but please tell us exactly what you think “matters” to him about humans.

I don't know what 'matters' to Him. That is the whole point of my approach. I can only interpret Him from what history shows us, without Bible interpretation. All I know is humans are here. I think God guided evolution. Therefore He wanted to achieve the appearance of a human population. The rest, His 'feelings' ( a humanizing attempt) are beyond me. I see his purpose, nothing more. I follow Adler who also did not know if He cared about individual prayer! You are muddled by religious thought.


dhw: How can you discuss God’s intentions without humanizing him? Your God is a tough love parent, who expects us to solve problems like you taught your kids to budget – but this is not “humanizing” him? As for a God who you regard as being in total control but who “had to allow” tradeoffs, what forced him? Do you think he was incapable of inventing life and evolution without inflicting disease and untold suffering? Tough love parenting isn’t much help to a dead child. You view God as a “serious operative”. Why shouldn’t he be “serious” about relieving his boredom?

You are listing my guesses about God. These are just guesses. God is a personality like no other personality, and cannot be compared in any way to human thought or action. Again I am paraphrasing Adler. You need to read his book to understand my approach. Adler was a world famous philosopher, far more knowledgeable than I am, so without training in his area of expertise, I follow him.

DAVID: I can turn it around on you: if we have consciousness we can communicate with Him. I can ask you why did He give us consciousness if not to communicate?

By all means turn it around, but why don’t you answer my question first? You constantly inform me that you are the one looking for purpose, and so I ask you what you think is your God’s purpose in seeking a relationship with us (by which apparently you do not mean individuals but the whole human race). And may I ask what communication you have with your God? You keep telling us he is hidden, and you don’t know if he has thoughts and feelings like ours. Do you nevertheless talk to him and get a response?

I pray in my own strange way. I feel my life is guided for a purpose my whole life. Opportunities and directional guidance appeared all through my life. You appeared in my life, and look what has happened! I understand this idea in retrospect. It is unquestionable to me.

dhw: In answer to your own question, what could provide greater variety of entertainment than an organism so advanced in its consciousness that it has almost unlimited potential powers of creation and destruction?

God is all purposeful. Only humans need entertainment. God is NOT human in thought. Stop humanizing Him.

DAVID: I work backward: humans are here, for no good requirement I can see when looking at the challenges to life in general. I accept that point as a given starting point to try to explain humans. The rest of my reasoning follows from that. I'm sorry it seems so strange to you.


dhw: I am simply pointing out that invaders disturbing the “balance of nature” have nothing to do with your God designing and destroying countless species in order to produce humans.

How does evolution proceed without loss of earlier species?

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Friday, February 03, 2017, 16:12 (2850 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: So the human population matters to him, but later you say “We really don't know if He cares about individuals.” What is the human race if it’s not a collection of individuals? Frankly, if he doesn’t care about individuals, he may as well be a spectator or not there at all, but please tell us exactly what you think “matters” to him about humans.
DAVID: I don't know what 'matters' to Him. That is the whole point of my approach. I can only interpret Him from what history shows us, without Bible interpretation. All I know is humans are here. I think God guided evolution. Therefore He wanted to achieve the appearance of a human population. The rest, His 'feelings' ( a humanizing attempt) are beyond me. I see his purpose, nothing more. I follow Adler who also did not know if He cared about individual prayer! You are muddled by religious thought.

You know that humans matter to him, but you do not know if individual humans matter to him and you are not prepared to discuss what exactly does matter to him. This has nothing to do with prayer and religious thought. It is a blanket refusal to consider the implications of your own personal view of your God, as outlined below.

dhw: How can you discuss God’s intentions without humanizing him? Your God is a tough love parent, who expects us to solve problems like you taught your kids to budget – but this is not “humanizing” him? As for a God who you regard as being in total control but who “had to allow” tradeoffs, what forced him? Do you think he was incapable of inventing life and evolution without inflicting disease and untold suffering? Tough love parenting isn’t much help to a dead child. You view God as a “serious operative”. Why shouldn’t he be “serious” about relieving his boredom?
DAVID: You are listing my guesses about God. These are just guesses.

Of course they are just guesses. You asked me why he would sacrifice control by giving organisms the means to direct their own evolution, and I gave you a guess. You volunteered your own belief “in a tough-love God who expects us to solve problems.” You believe in your humanized guess, so why is it unacceptable for you if I make a different humanized guess? Back to your double standards.

DAVID: God is a personality like no other personality, and cannot be compared in any way to human thought or action. Again I am paraphrasing Adler. You need to read his book to understand my approach. Adler was a world famous philosopher, far more knowledgeable than I am, so without training in his area of expertise, I follow him.

See below for more of these authoritative statements about your God. I don’t know why I should have to read Adler to answer questions about your beliefs. You are a big boy now, David. Stand up for yourself, or reconsider your Adler-based beliefs if you can’t defend them.

Dhw: And may I ask what communication you have with your God? You keep telling us he is hidden, and you don’t know if he has thoughts and feelings like ours. Do you nevertheless talk to him and get a response?
DAVID: I pray in my own strange way. I feel my life is guided for a purpose my whole life. Opportunities and directional guidance appeared all through my life. You appeared in my life, and look what has happened! I understand this idea in retrospect. It is unquestionable to me.

So perhaps in your own strange way, you believe that God does care about you as an individual, but in your unquestioning devotion to Adler you daren’t say so. In my quest for purpose (which you constantly accuse me of avoiding), I have asked what purpose you think your God has in seeking a relationship with us. You asked why else he would give us our consciousness, and I gave you an answer which you don’t like. If it is fair for you to ask me to guess his purpose, why should I not ask you to do the same?

dhw: In answer to your own question, what could provide greater variety of entertainment than an organism so advanced in its consciousness that it has almost unlimited potential powers of creation and destruction?
DAVID: God is all purposeful. Only humans need entertainment. God is NOT human in thought. Stop humanizing Him.

All purposeful does not exclude the purpose of deliberately creating a show for himself. How the heck do you know that God is NOT human in thought? You seem to think that you and Adler between you actually know your God’s mind! Maybe your God specially created humans “in his own image”, i.e. with a consciousness that enables them to “communicate” with him, and so why should you assume that we have no thoughts/feelings in common? Stop pretending you and Adler know how God thinks. Your authoritative assumptions have no more validity than my hypotheses.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Friday, February 03, 2017, 20:58 (2850 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: Of course they are just guesses. You asked me why he would sacrifice control by giving organisms the means to direct their own evolution, and I gave you a guess. You volunteered your own belief “in a tough-love God who expects us to solve problems.” You believe in your humanized guess, so why is it unacceptable for you if I make a different humanized guess? Back to your double standards.

My complaint is you keep pushing me to analyze possible desires and motives that God might have. I don't logically know of any. My comments are just guesses that have no importance. I have simply concluded, as I've said before, humans are here. From that I've concluded God wanted that result. I propose nothing more. Because I do not want to humanize Him, as Adler warns He is a personality like no other personality. You are the one who struggles with humanization and create double standards.

dhw: See below for more of these authoritative statements about your God. I don’t know why I should have to read Adler to answer questions about your beliefs. You are a big boy now, David. Stand up for yourself, or reconsider your Adler-based beliefs if you can’t defend them.

Why can't I quote Adler to you, as I follow his teachings? I don't think he needs defense.

DAVID: I pray in my own strange way. I feel my life is guided for a purpose my whole life. Opportunities and directional guidance appeared all through my life. You appeared in my life, and look what has happened! I understand this idea in retrospect. It is unquestionable to me.

dhw: So perhaps in your own strange way, you believe that God does care about you as an individual, but in your unquestioning devotion to Adler you daren’t say so. In my quest for purpose (which you constantly accuse me of avoiding), I have asked what purpose you think your God has in seeking a relationship with us. You asked why else he would give us our consciousness, and I gave you an answer which you don’t like. If it is fair for you to ask me to guess his purpose, why should I not ask you to do the same?

I ask for purpose only because you bring it up all he time. You keep trying to view His thoughts as equivalent to human thoughts. I don't think one can or should.


dhw: In answer to your own question, what could provide greater variety of entertainment than an organism so advanced in its consciousness that it has almost unlimited potential powers of creation and destruction?

DAVID: God is all purposeful. Only humans need entertainment. God is NOT human in thought. Stop humanizing Him.

dhw: All purposeful does not exclude the purpose of deliberately creating a show for himself. How the heck do you know that God is NOT human in thought? You seem to think that you and Adler between you actually know your God’s mind! Maybe your God specially created humans “in his own image”, i.e. with a consciousness that enables them to “communicate” with him, and so why should you assume that we have no thoughts/feelings in common? Stop pretending you and Adler know how God thinks. Your authoritative assumptions have no more validity than my hypotheses.

Both Adler and I to not accept anything human about God. Why do you?

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Saturday, February 04, 2017, 13:24 (2849 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Of course they are just guesses. You asked me why he would sacrifice control by giving organisms the means to direct their own evolution, and I gave you a guess. You volunteered your own belief “in a tough-love God who expects us to solve problems.” You believe in your humanized guess, so why is it unacceptable for you if I make a different humanized guess? Back to your double standards.
DAVID: : My complaint is you keep pushing me to analyze possible desires and motives that God might have. I don't logically know of any. My comments are just guesses that have no importance. I have simply concluded, as I've said before, humans are here. From that I've concluded God wanted that result. I propose nothing more. Because I do not want to humanize Him, as Adler warns He is a personality like no other personality. You are the one who struggles with humanization and create double standards.

Nobody "logically knows" anything about the origin of life and evolution, whether God exists or not, and if he exists what he is like or what his intentions were in creating life. But because of our enhanced consciousness, we ask ourselves all these questions, and we try to find logical patterns to explain our existence. That is why you and I have been questing away together for the last nine years, examining each other’s hypotheses. You actually believe in certain hypotheses: that God exists, that he created life and evolution in order to produce humans, that humans matter to him, and that he is a tough love God, and in your own strange way you communicate with him. I have not “pushed” you into these beliefs, and you have every right to believe what you wish to believe. However, I think I also have the right to challenge certain assumptions, especially if they do not seem to me to have any justification.

Your original explanation of the course of evolutionary history (that God either programmed every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder, extant and extinct, 3.8 billion years ago, or personally intervened for the purpose of producing humans) seemed to me to be riddled with illogicality. At least you have now explicitly allowed for possible autonomy, “with God correcting whenever necessary”. We shall no doubt come back to that subject again.

The current point at issue is that you and Adler claim to know that God does not think like humans. You believe his whole purpose in creating life was to create humans, but we mustn’t ask WHY he created humans. You ask why he would have given us consciousness of him if he didn’t want a relationship with us, but we mustn’t ask WHY he would want a relationship with us. Over and over again, you tell me that you see purpose in everything, but I mustn’t ask what that purpose is. You assume that the being who you believe created good and evil, love and hate, and all the other facets of our existence has no experience of them within himself. Why should you assume that these are human inventions and that the inventor of humans, who according to you has total control over what comes into existence, is not himself inherent in all facets of that existence? If there really is one supreme being who created the universe and life, then of course he is not human. But that does not mean he has nothing in common with humans. All we can do is speculate. Your beliefs as listed above are your speculations. I speculate (without belief) that if God exists, he may (note the hypothetical nature of the auxiliary) have created life in order to relieve his boredom. You say: “Both Adler and I do not accept anything human about God. Why do you?” I don't "accept" it. But I accept that it is possible. What authority do you have to reject the possibility that there is something human about him? It is just as presumptuous to proclaim that he has no traits in common with humans as it is to proclaim that he does have such traits. We can only look at our world and try to extrapolate explanations from what we see. If God exists, why – in our speculations – should we NOT view the creation as a reflection of its creator?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, February 04, 2017, 22:44 (2849 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: : My complaint is you keep pushing me to analyze possible desires and motives that God might have. I don't logically know of any. My comments are just guesses that have no importance. I have simply concluded, as I've said before, humans are here. From that I've concluded God wanted that result. I propose nothing more. Because I do not want to humanize Him, as Adler warns He is a personality like no other personality. You are the one who struggles with humanization and create double standards.

dhw: Nobody "logically knows" anything about the origin of life and evolution, whether God exists or not, and if he exists what he is like or what his intentions were in creating life. ....I have not “pushed” you into these beliefs, and you have every right to believe what you wish to believe. However, I think I also have the right to challenge certain assumptions, especially if they do not seem to me to have any justification.

But it is you who does not accept God, although you offer the possibility that He might exist. But doubting Him you want to delve deep into his personality and desires, when we have no idea what his personality is like.

dhw: The current point at issue is that you and Adler claim to know that God does not think like humans. You believe his whole purpose in creating life was to create humans, but we mustn’t ask WHY he created humans. You ask why he would have given us consciousness of him if he didn’t want a relationship with us, but we mustn’t ask WHY he would want a relationship with us. Over and over again, you tell me that you see purpose in everything, but I mustn’t ask what that purpose is.

Because we work backward from what we know He created, we can guess at why He did it, but we have no logic to work with, only comparisons from how we operate. We don't know if He operates that way.

dhw: You assume that the being who you believe created good and evil, love and hate, and all the other facets of our existence has no experience of them within himself. Why should you assume that these are human inventions and that the inventor of humans, who according to you has total control over what comes into existence, is not himself inherent in all facets of that existence?

I don't believe God has any smidgen of evil in Himself. Evil is the result of what He has created: the physical forces of Earth, the evil in freedom-of-choice imperfect humans. That He allowed these results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve those problems, and we are doing just that.

dhw: If there really is one supreme being who created the universe and life, then of course he is not human. But that does not mean he has nothing in common with humans.

What we have in common I believe is consciousness, nothing more. I believe consciousness could not develop from natural causes by itself, but from a pre-existing consciousness.

dhw: All we can do is speculate. Your beliefs as listed above are your speculations. I speculate (without belief) that if God exists, he may (note the hypothetical nature of the auxiliary) have created life in order to relieve his boredom. You say: “Both Adler and I do not accept anything human about God. Why do you?” I don't "accept" it. But I accept that it is possible. What authority do you have to reject the possibility that there is something human about him?

I don't reject it, but since we have no way of knowing, any guesses are wisps of nothing. Humans are here. That is a fact. That is solid. that leads me to say God wanted to produce humans. Anything beyond that is 'angels on the head of a pin'.

dhw: It is just as presumptuous to proclaim that he has no traits in common with humans as it is to proclaim that he does have such traits. We can only look at our world and try to extrapolate explanations from what we see. If God exists, why – in our speculations – should we NOT view the creation as a reflection of its creator?

I've given you my reflections as far as they can go with any degree of logic. You are the unbeliever who wants to uncover his thought processes. I accept Him without digging into that side of the considerations. I really don't understand why you bother. Are you seeking ways to approach a belief in him?

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Sunday, February 05, 2017, 11:10 (2848 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I have not “pushed” you into these beliefs, and you have every right to believe what you wish to believe. However, I think I also have the right to challenge certain assumptions, especially if they do not seem to me to have any justification.
DAVID: But it is you who does not accept God, although you offer the possibility that He might exist. But doubting Him you want to delve deep into his personality and desires, when we have no idea what his personality is like.

You yourself have devoted a lifetime to delving into all the questions we discuss. You have even written two brilliant books about them. Why? Both of us are driven by a desire to make sense of the world we have been lucky enough to experience. We don’t and can’t know if God exists, or what he is like if he does exist, but we examine the world in order to find clues. That is why you tell us we are his “purpose”, we matter to him, he wants a relationship with us (you ask why else would he have given us our consciousness), he is a God of tough love who wants us to solve the problems he has set us. But you resent it if I offer you a different view – only then do you bridle at the attempt to delve.

dhw: You assume that the being who you believe created good and evil, love and hate, and all the other facets of our existence has no experience of them within himself. Why should you assume that these are human inventions and that the inventor of humans, who according to you has total control over what comes into existence, is not himself inherent in all facets of that existence?
DAVID: I don't believe God has any smidgen of evil in Himself....

And there you have the nub of the matter. You have a fixed concept of your God, and the reason why you regard it as pointless to delve into his nature is not that we cannot know it, but that you already have your beliefs and resent any reasoning that throws them into question.

DAVID:...Evil is the result of what He has created: the physical forces of Earth, the evil in freedom-of-choice imperfect humans. That He allowed these results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve those problems, and we are doing just that.

Once again, you present your own interpretation of your God’s intentions and attitude, but you tell me not to delve.

dhw: If there really is one supreme being who created the universe and life, then of course he is not human. But that does not mean he has nothing in common with humans.
DAVID: What we have in common I believe is consciousness, nothing more. I believe consciousness could not develop from natural causes by itself, but from a pre-existing consciousness.

That is a good argument for the existence of God. But consciousness needs to be conscious of something. Hence my next question:
dhw: What authority do you have to reject the possibility that there is something human about him?
DAVID: I don't reject it, but since we have no way of knowing, any guesses are wisps of nothing. Humans are here. That is a fact. That is solid. that leads me to say God wanted to produce humans. Anything beyond that is 'angels on the head of a pin'.

And the duckbilled platypus is also here, which leads me to say that if God exists, he wanted to produce the duckbilled platypus. So what? You do insist on putting ‘angels on the head of a pin’. Read your own statements above about God’s nature and purpose and attitude. You just don’t want me to offer alternatives.

dhw: It is just as presumptuous to proclaim that he has no traits in common with humans as it is to proclaim that he does have such traits. We can only look at our world and try to extrapolate explanations from what we see. If God exists, why – in our speculations – should we NOT view the creation as a reflection of its creator?
DAVID: I've given you my reflections as far as they can go with any degree of logic. You are the unbeliever who wants to uncover his thought processes. I accept Him without digging into that side of the considerations. I really don't understand why you bother. Are you seeking ways to approach a belief in him?

Yes, you have expressed your own beliefs, including your insistence that God has no traits in common with humans. And I have asked you how you and Adler can possibly make such a presumption. Your answer is to tell me not to delve. As regards why I do delve, see my first response above.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Sunday, February 05, 2017, 19:37 (2848 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: You yourself have devoted a lifetime to delving into all the questions we discuss. You have even written two brilliant books about them. Why? Both of us are driven by a desire to make sense of the world we have been lucky enough to experience. We don’t and can’t know if God exists, or what he is like if he does exist, but we examine the world in order to find clues. That is why you tell us we are his “purpose”, we matter to him, he wants a relationship with us (you ask why else would he have given us our consciousness), he is a God of tough love who wants us to solve the problems he has set us. But you resent it if I offer you a different view – only then do you bridle at the attempt to delve.

Your view constantly attempts to humanize Him. That is my objection to your delving. I simply state He wanted humans simply because humans are here, and based on how all primates have survived without our big brains, there is no reason for us to appear, unless evolution was driven to do it. After that I guess at His thinking without much faith in knowing if an y of my guesses are correct.


dhw: You have a fixed concept of your God, and the reason why you regard it as pointless to delve into his nature is not that we cannot know it, but that you already have your beliefs and resent any reasoning that throws them into question.

You are reasoning according to your view of God at a distance. My statement above is all I am comfortable with.


DAVID:...Evil is the result of what He has created: the physical forces of Earth, the evil in freedom-of-choice imperfect humans. That He allowed these results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve those problems, and we are doing just that.

dhw: Once again, you present your own interpretation of your God’s intentions and attitude, but you tell me not to delve.

You can delve all you want. I will accept only what I think fits the framework of my conclusions. If you can point out necessary changes in my framework, have at it.


dhw: If there really is one supreme being who created the universe and life, then of course he is not human. But that does not mean he has nothing in common with humans.

DAVID: What we have in common I believe is consciousness, nothing more. I believe consciousness could not develop from natural causes by itself, but from a pre-existing consciousness.

dhw: That is a good argument for the existence of God. But consciousness needs to be conscious of something. Hence my next question:

dhw: What authority do you have to reject the possibility that there is something human about him?

DAVID: I don't reject it, but since we have no way of knowing, any guesses are wisps of nothing. Humans are here. That is a fact. That is solid. that leads me to say God wanted to produce humans. Anything beyond that is 'angels on the head of a pin'.

dhw: And the duckbilled platypus is also here, which leads me to say that if God exists, he wanted to produce the duckbilled platypus. So what? You do insist on putting ‘angels on the head of a pin’. Read your own statements above about God’s nature and purpose and attitude. You just don’t want me to offer alternatives.

The platypus is not comparable to humans. Our presence is of highest significance. As for angels and my statements of God's possible thoughts see below: they are just flimsy guesses. I have no objection to you proposing whatever you wish. I have every right to pick it apart from my point of view. We are both rigidly apart in our approach to understanding God.


dhw: It is just as presumptuous to proclaim that he has no traits in common with humans as it is to proclaim that he does have such traits. We can only look at our world and try to extrapolate explanations from what we see. If God exists, why – in our speculations – should we NOT view the creation as a reflection of its creator?

DAVID: I've given you my reflections as far as they can go with any degree of logic. You are the unbeliever who wants to uncover his thought processes. I accept Him without digging into that side of the considerations. I really don't understand why you bother. Are you seeking ways to approach a belief in him?

dhw:Yes, you have expressed your own beliefs, including your insistence that God has no traits in common with humans. And I have asked you how you and Adler can possibly make such a presumption. Your answer is to tell me not to delve. As regards why I do delve, see my first response above.

I have not stated that God has no traits in common with humans. He may very well. But since He is such an unusual personality, like no personality we know, all we can come up with are humanized guesses. Have I given you some possible God-points-of-view? Yes, because you asked me to do it. Do I firmly believe those guesses? No. My complete approach is simple: humans are here, therefore God wanted us here. We relate through His consciousness and ours. Period. Going further is nebulous.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Monday, February 06, 2017, 16:40 (2847 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: You yourself have devoted a lifetime to delving into all the questions we discuss. You have even written two brilliant books about them. Why? Both of us are driven by a desire to make sense of the world we have been lucky enough to experience. We don’t and can’t know if God exists, or what he is like if he does exist, but we examine the world in order to find clues. That is why you tell us we are his “purpose”, we matter to him, he wants a relationship with us (you ask why else would he have given us our consciousness), he is a God of tough love who wants us to solve the problems he has set us. But you resent it if I offer you a different view – only then do you bridle at the attempt to delve.
DAVID: Your view constantly attempts to humanize Him. That is my objection to your delving. I simply state He wanted humans simply because humans are here, and based on how all primates have survived without our big brains, there is no reason for us to appear, unless evolution was driven to do it. After that I guess at His thinking without much faith in knowing if any of my guesses are correct.

The problem, then, lies in the way you express yourself. You declare your beliefs, vigorously defend them, and vigorously attack alternatives. But now you tell me you don’t have much faith in your “guesses”. So do you or do you not believe, for instance, that humans matter to God, that he wants a relationship with us, that he wants to communicate with us, but that he has no human qualities? Here are some quotes from your very recent posts:

If we have consciousness we can communicate with Him. I can ask you why did He give us consciousness if not to communicate?”
I believe in a tough-love God who expects us to solve problems.”
I view God as a serious operative who never looks for entertainment as a purpose.
Both Adler and I do not accept anything human about God.”
“God is NOT human in thought.”
(Contrast this with your latest claim: “I have not stated that God has no traits in common with humans. He may very well.”)
I don’t believe God has any smidgen of evil in Himself…That he allowed these results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve these problems…”

You have thought deeply about all these matters and you have reached conclusions. You believe in tough love (a clear humanization of God) and yet you reject boredom because that is humanizing God. If you don’t have much faith in your beliefs, then why not adopt a more conciliatory attitude towards alternatives? It is the vehemence and authoritarian tone of your arguments that create misunderstandings (if that is what they are). We can rejig this whole discussion around your latest post, as follows:

All we know is that humans are here. All theories concerning the reason are guesses. One guess is that there is a God who especially wanted to create beings with enhanced consciousness, perhaps because he wanted to communicate with them, or perhaps because he wanted to add a new dimension to the show he was watching. You favour the former. Perhaps humans matter to God, or perhaps they don’t. You favour the former. Perhaps humans created evil, or perhaps human nature reflects the nature of their creator. You favour the former.

Just try the gentle agnostic approach, and see how much simpler it is.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Tuesday, February 07, 2017, 01:16 (2847 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Your view constantly attempts to humanize Him. That is my objection to your delving. I simply state He wanted humans simply because humans are here, and based on how all primates have survived without our big brains, there is no reason for us to appear, unless evolution was driven to do it. After that I guess at His thinking without much faith in knowing if any of my guesses are correct.

dhw: The problem, then, lies in the way you express yourself. You declare your beliefs, vigorously defend them, and vigorously attack alternatives.... Here are some quotes from your very recent posts:

If we have consciousness we can communicate with Him. I can ask you why did He give us consciousness if not to communicate?”

Communication is a reasonable conclusion, but following Adler, His responsivness to prayer is 50/50.

dhw: “I believe in a tough-love God who expects us to solve problems.”

Based on our consciousness, it is the only possible view I could think of.

dhw: “I view God as a serious operative who never looks for entertainment as a purpose.

I have no way of knowing if He likes to be entertained. It's your idea.

dhw: “Both Adler and I do not accept anything human about God.”

Yes

dhw: “God is NOT human in thought.”

He does not have a human personality (Adler). Thought is not like ours.

dhw: (Contrast this with your latest claim: “I have not stated that God has no traits in common with humans. He may very well.”

But I have no way of knowing what might be similar. Possible similarities, yes.

dhw: “I don’t believe God has any smidgen of evil in Himself…That he allowed these results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve these problems…”

This is my view of the tough love approach. Loving us, caring is the religious thought. We have no proof this is the case.

This is why I view (as Karen Armstrong does) that studying God is through His works. Nothing else can be used to know Him!


dhw: You have thought deeply about all these matters and you have reached conclusions. You believe in tough love (a clear humanization of God) and yet you reject boredom because that is humanizing God. If you don’t have much faith in your beliefs, then why not adopt a more conciliatory attitude towards alternatives?

Please note, there are almost no 'beliefs' in my concepts of God as a personlity. They are what I think might be possible attributes of God. What is firm and rigid is God created the universe, conducted evolution and wanted humans. He gave us our form of consciousness.I don't worry about whether He loves us or not, but I'm sure He is very interested in us. Tough love is my guess about disease and living in a dangerous universe. Your humanizing Him goes down a bumpy road with no way to prove anything.

dhw: It is the vehemence and authoritarian tone of your arguments that create misunderstandings (if that is what they are). We can rejig this whole discussion around your latest post, as follows:

All we know is that humans are here. All theories concerning the reason are guesses. One guess is that there is a God who especially wanted to create beings with enhanced consciousness, perhaps because he wanted to communicate with them, or perhaps because he wanted to add a new dimension to the show he was watching. You favour the former. Perhaps humans matter to God, or perhaps they don’t. You favour the former. Perhaps humans created evil, or perhaps human nature reflects the nature of their creator. You favour the former.

Humans can create evil, but not disease or asteroids that can destroy the Earth. It is a challenge to us to solve those threats. Human nature is human nature. We do not know God's. We only know His creations which represent Him. My vehemence and authoritarian tone comes from my personal firm conclusions. I hope you understand. I've been at this science/God study since my mid-50's and gradually reached this very firm point of view.


dhw:Just try the gentle agnostic approach, and see how much simpler it is.

Gently floating around. ;-)

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Tuesday, February 07, 2017, 11:32 (2846 days ago) @ David Turell

Thank you, David, for your detailed comments on my last post. I would just like to pursue the one new point that I raised then:

dhw: It is the vehemence and authoritarian tone of your arguments that create misunderstandings (if that is what they are). We can rejig this whole discussion around your latest post, as follows:

All we know is that humans are here. All theories concerning the reason are guesses. One guess is that there is a God who especially wanted to create beings with enhanced consciousness, perhaps because he wanted to communicate with them, or perhaps because he wanted to add a new dimension to the show he was watching. You favour the former. Perhaps humans matter to God, or perhaps they don’t. You favour the former. Perhaps humans created evil, or perhaps human nature reflects the nature of their creator. You favour the former.
To this I should add: Perhaps God has personality traits in common with humans, and perhaps he does not. You favour the latter.

This summary covers all the arguments dealt with in the rest of the exchanges between us. It includes all your beliefs and all the alternatives we have discussed, but removes the “vehemence and authoritarian tone” of your arguments. Can you find fault with it?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Tuesday, February 07, 2017, 16:42 (2846 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Thank you, David, for your detailed comments on my last post. I would just like to pursue the one new point that I raised then:

dhw: It is the vehemence and authoritarian tone of your arguments that create misunderstandings (if that is what they are). We can rejig this whole discussion around your latest post, as follows:

All we know is that humans are here. All theories concerning the reason are guesses. One guess is that there is a God who especially wanted to create beings with enhanced consciousness, perhaps because he wanted to communicate with them, or perhaps because he wanted to add a new dimension to the show he was watching. You favour the former. Perhaps humans matter to God, or perhaps they don’t. You favour the former. Perhaps humans created evil, or perhaps human nature reflects the nature of their creator. You favour the former.
To this I should add: Perhaps God has personality traits in common with humans, and perhaps he does not. You favour the latter.

This summary covers all the arguments dealt with in the rest of the exchanges between us. It includes all your beliefs and all the alternatives we have discussed, but removes the “vehemence and authoritarian tone” of your arguments. Can you find fault with it?

Generally no fault, with this minor point: God possibly has traits in common with humans, but we cannot assume that He does in discussing His motives.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Wednesday, February 08, 2017, 12:24 (2845 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: It is the vehemence and authoritarian tone of your arguments that create misunderstandings (if that is what they are). We can rejig this whole discussion around your latest post, as follows:
All we know is that humans are here. All theories concerning the reason are guesses. One guess is that there is a God who especially wanted to create beings with enhanced consciousness, perhaps because he wanted to communicate with them, or perhaps because he wanted to add a new dimension to the show he was watching. You favour the former. Perhaps humans matter to God, or perhaps they don’t. You favour the former. Perhaps humans created evil, or perhaps human nature reflects the nature of their creator. You favour the former.
To this I should add: Perhaps God has personality traits in common with humans, and perhaps he does not. You favour the latter.
This summary covers all the arguments dealt with in the rest of the exchanges between us. It includes all your beliefs and all the alternatives we have discussed, but removes the “vehemence and authoritarian tone” of your arguments. Can you find fault with it?

DAVID: Generally no fault, with this minor point: God possibly has traits in common with humans, but we cannot assume that He does in discussing His motives.

When I say perhaps he has traits in common, that is the same as “possibly has traits in common”, and when I say “perhaps he does not”, that automatically precludes assumptions of any kind. Hypotheses are not assumptions. Thank you for accepting this summary, and for conceding earlier that your beliefs concerning God’s nature and motivation are mere guesses. I will remind of you this next time you make vehement, authoritative statements about God’s nature and motivation!

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, February 09, 2017, 02:15 (2845 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: Generally no fault, with this minor point: God possibly has traits in common with humans, but we cannot assume that He does in discussing His motives.

dhw: When I say perhaps he has traits in common, that is the same as “possibly has traits in common”, and when I say “perhaps he does not”, that automatically precludes assumptions of any kind. Hypotheses are not assumptions. Thank you for accepting this summary, and for conceding earlier that your beliefs concerning God’s nature and motivation are mere guesses. I will remind of you this next time you make vehement, authoritative statements about God’s nature and motivation!

I will be vehement if you try to humanize His thought patterns.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Thursday, February 09, 2017, 15:32 (2844 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Generally no fault, with this minor point: God possibly has traits in common with humans, but we cannot assume that He does in discussing His motives.

dhw: When I say perhaps he has traits in common, that is the same as “possibly has traits in common”, and when I say “perhaps he does not”, that automatically precludes assumptions of any kind. Hypotheses are not assumptions. Thank you for accepting this summary, and for conceding earlier that your beliefs concerning God’s nature and motivation are mere guesses. I will remind of you this next time you make vehement, authoritative statements about God’s nature and motivation!

DAVID: I will be vehement if you try to humanize His thought patterns.

Then although you never cease to emphasize that your God is all-purposeful, we shall have to stop asking about his purposes - and hence his nature, because you can’t gauge purposes without analysing thought patterns. In our joint quest to solve the great mysteries of life and the universe, you are allowed to guess that he might have specially created humans in order to have a relationship with us, that we matter to him, that he is "NOT" human in thought, that he is a tough-love God who expects us to solve problems and who never looks for entertainment, and he does not have a smidgen of evil in him. But if I guess that all your guesses may be wrong and there may be an alternative way of interpreting his purposes, and hence his nature, your guesses will turn into authoritative statements. I dunno about tough love, but they sure do teach 'em tough talk in Texas!

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, February 09, 2017, 18:48 (2844 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I will be vehement if you try to humanize His thought patterns.

dhw: Then although you never cease to emphasize that your God is all-purposeful, we shall have to stop asking about his purposes - and hence his nature, because you can’t gauge purposes without analysing thought patterns. In our joint quest to solve the great mysteries of life and the universe, you are allowed to guess that he might have specially created humans in order to have a relationship with us, that we matter to him, that he is "NOT" human in thought, that he is a tough-love God who expects us to solve problems and who never looks for entertainment, and he does not have a smidgen of evil in him. But if I guess that all your guesses may be wrong and there may be an alternative way of interpreting his purposes, and hence his nature, your guesses will turn into authoritative statements. I dunno about tough love, but they sure do teach 'em tough talk in Texas!

We cannot know his thought patterns, since He is not human, and we are. We have to work backwards from what is created, where we might then see something that looks like purpose. We need to avoid describing what God may see as a personal purpose for Himself. That is what has no evidence to support it. What is produced in creation does allow a proposal of purpose as theory. Note the differentiation.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Friday, February 10, 2017, 13:29 (2843 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I will be vehement if you try to humanize His thought patterns.
dhw: Then although you never cease to emphasize that your God is all-purposeful, we shall have to stop asking about his purposes - and hence his nature, because you can’t gauge purposes without analysing thought patterns. In our joint quest to solve the great mysteries of life and the universe, you are allowed to guess that he might have specially created humans in order to have a relationship with us, that we matter to him, that he is "NOT" human in thought, that he is a tough-love God who expects us to solve problems and who never looks for entertainment, and he does not have a smidgen of evil in him. But if I guess that all your guesses may be wrong and there may be an alternative way of interpreting his purposes, and hence his nature, your guesses will turn into authoritative statements. I dunno about tough love, but they sure do teach 'em tough talk in Texas!

DAVID: We cannot know his thought patterns, since He is not human, and we are. We have to work backwards from what is created, where we might then see something that looks like purpose. We need to avoid describing what God may see as a personal purpose for Himself.

Why? The fact that we cannot know his purpose or his nature does not mean we mustn’t speculate. In fact, it’s only natural that we should. You have asked yourself why humans are here, and you guess that God specially produced us. You have asked yourself why he specially produced us, and you guess that he wants a relationship with us. You have convinced yourself that there is not a smidgen of evil in your God, and you have asked yourself why in that case there is evil in the world, and you guess that he is a God of tough love who expects us to solve the problems he sets us. If you can guess at God’s personal purposes, why shouldn’t I?

DAVID: That is what has no evidence to support it. What is produced in creation does allow a proposal of purpose as theory. Note the differentiation.

The history of evolution allows a proposal of purpose and of non-purpose as theory, just as the existence of life and the universe allows a proposal of God and non-God as theory, just as the hypothetical existence of God allows a proposal of different divine purposes as theories. There is evidence to support all theories (otherwise they would be sheer nonsense), but there is no evidence to provide conclusive proof (otherwise the theories would become facts). The history of philosophy would have been pretty bare if humans were only allowed to speculate on matters they can actually “know”.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, February 11, 2017, 01:35 (2843 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: We cannot know his thought patterns, since He is not human, and we are. We have to work backwards from what is created, where we might then see something that looks like purpose. We need to avoid describing what God may see as a personal purpose for Himself.

dhw: Why? The fact that we cannot know his purpose or his nature does not mean we mustn’t speculate. In fact, it’s only natural that we should. You have asked yourself why humans are here, and you guess that God specially produced us. You have asked yourself why he specially produced us, and you guess that he wants a relationship with us. You have convinced yourself that there is not a smidgen of evil in your God, and you have asked yourself why in that case there is evil in the world, and you guess that he is a God of tough love who expects us to solve the problems he sets us. If you can guess at God’s personal purposes, why shouldn’t I?

You certainly may analyze God's purposes. Note those of mine you listed contained no reference to God's purpose as it related to God's self obtaining a self-reward such as your proposal of entertainment!


DAVID: That is what has no evidence to support it. What is produced in creation does allow a proposal of purpose as theory. Note the differentiation.

dhw: The history of evolution allows a proposal of purpose and of non-purpose as theory, just as the existence of life and the universe allows a proposal of God and non-God as theory, just as the hypothetical existence of God allows a proposal of different divine purposes as theories. There is evidence to support all theories (otherwise they would be sheer nonsense), but there is no evidence to provide conclusive proof (otherwise the theories would become facts). The history of philosophy would have been pretty bare if humans were only allowed to speculate on matters they can actually “know”.

I totally agree with your statement.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Saturday, February 11, 2017, 13:13 (2842 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: We cannot know his thought patterns, since He is not human, and we are. We have to work backwards from what is created, where we might then see something that looks like purpose. We need to avoid describing what God may see as a personal purpose for Himself.
dhw: Why? The fact that we cannot know his purpose or his nature does not mean we mustn’t speculate. In fact, it’s only natural that we should. You have asked yourself why humans are here, and you guess that God specially produced us. You have asked yourself why he specially produced us, and you guess that he wants a relationship with us. You have convinced yourself that there is not a smidgen of evil in your God, and you have asked yourself why in that case there is evil in the world, and you guess that he is a God of tough love who expects us to solve the problems he sets us. If you can guess at God’s personal purposes, why shouldn’t I?
DAVID: You certainly may analyze God's purposes. Note those of mine you listed contained no reference to God's purpose as it related to God's self obtaining a self-reward such as your proposal of entertainment!

Wanting to produce humans, wanting a relationship, and wanting us to solve problems are put forward by you as your God’s purposes, but you are convinced that his purposes do not include any benefit to himself. I really don’t know why you should believe that your God would go to all that trouble if he didn’t get SOMETHING out of it for himself, but that is part of the great muddle: you keep telling me that God is all-purposeful, and you are the one who sees purpose everywhere, but you just cannot (or do not want to) imagine that your God has any purpose beyond creating you and setting you problems.

DAVID: That is what has no evidence to support it. What is produced in creation does allow a proposal of purpose as theory. Note the differentiation.
dhw: The history of evolution allows a proposal of purpose and of non-purpose as theory, just as the existence of life and the universe allows a proposal of God and non-God as theory, just as the hypothetical existence of God allows a proposal of different divine purposes as theories. There is evidence to support all theories (otherwise they would be sheer nonsense), but there is no evidence to provide conclusive proof (otherwise the theories would become facts). The history of philosophy would have been pretty bare if humans were only allowed to speculate on matters they can actually “know”.
DAVID: I totally agree with your statement.

Great. Then perhaps you will now understand why other people speculate, as you do, on your God's purpose in creating you, me and them, why they even come up with views that conflict with your own speculations, and why they are just as entitled to their guesses as you are. I include such theories as having a relationship with us,testing us with problems, teaching us, preparing us for a new life in the hereafter, worshipping him, and - last but not least - entertaining him.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, February 11, 2017, 15:35 (2842 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: Wanting to produce humans, wanting a relationship, and wanting us to solve problems are put forward by you as your God’s purposes, but you are convinced that his purposes do not include any benefit to himself. I really don’t know why you should believe that your God would go to all that trouble if he didn’t get SOMETHING out of it for himself, but that is part of the great muddle: you keep telling me that God is all-purposeful, and you are the one who sees purpose everywhere, but you just cannot (or do not want to) imagine that your God has any purpose beyond creating you and setting you problems.

If we cannot approach God as a person, we cannot know His personal motives for Himself. Again you are humanizing Him.

DAVID: I totally agree with your statement.


dhw: Great. Then perhaps you will now understand why other people speculate, as you do, on your God's purpose in creating you, me and them, why they even come up with views that conflict with your own speculations, and why they are just as entitled to their guesses as you are. I include such theories as having a relationship with us,testing us with problems, teaching us, preparing us for a new life in the hereafter, worshipping him, and - last but not least - entertaining him.

Of course we all speculate. You can keep humanizing Him. I won't.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Sunday, February 12, 2017, 09:08 (2841 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Wanting to produce humans, wanting a relationship, and wanting us to solve problems are put forward by you as your God’s purposes, but you are convinced that his purposes do not include any benefit to himself. I really don’t know why you should believe that your God would go to all that trouble if he didn’t get SOMETHING out of it for himself, but that is part of the great muddle: you keep telling me that God is all-purposeful, and you are the one who sees purpose everywhere, but you just cannot (or do not want to) imagine that your God has any purpose beyond creating you and setting you problems.
DAVID: If we cannot approach God as a person, we cannot know His personal motives for Himself. Again you are humanizing Him.

Yet again “we cannot know”. Of course we can’t. You have actually agreed that we only theorize about things we don’t know and, in this case, cannot know. Hence the history of philosophy. At one moment you exhort me to look for purpose, and the next you exhort me to stop looking for purpose. It is impossible to look for purpose without “humanizing”, and as I have said before, it is just as presumptuous to assume that he has no human attributes as to assume that he has none. Even insisting that he has a purpose is “humanizing” him, and guessing that his purpose was to produce us so that we could solve problems and have a tough-love relationship with him is also “human”. So why shouldn’t we ask why he wants us to solve the problems? If he took all the trouble to create life, do you not think it feasible that he might also watch the life he had created and watch us trying to solve the problems? Why are you so afraid of following up the implications of your own humanizing speculations?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Sunday, February 12, 2017, 15:55 (2841 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: If we cannot approach God as a person, we cannot know His personal motives for Himself. Again you are humanizing Him.


dhw: Yet again “we cannot know”. Of course we can’t. You have actually agreed that we only theorize about things we don’t know and, in this case, cannot know. Hence the history of philosophy. At one moment you exhort me to look for purpose, and the next you exhort me to stop looking for purpose. It is impossible to look for purpose without “humanizing”, and as I have said before, it is just as presumptuous to assume that he has no human attributes as to assume that he has none.

You have had Him looking for entertainment or enjoyment. That is what I object to. I see humans here when there are no good reason for it, except God's desire to produce them. For me it is easy to accept that as a primary fact. How that creates emotions in Him is an area that need not be considered. Figuring out how to relate to His personage is a more difficult issue. I approach Him hoping He is interested, nothing more. Bleak? Yes. But anything more is a human invention based on how we are.

dhw: Even insisting that he has a purpose is “humanizing” him, and guessing that his purpose was to produce us so that we could solve problems and have a tough-love relationship with him is also “human”. So why shouldn’t we ask why he wants us to solve the problems? If he took all the trouble to create life, do you not think it feasible that he might also watch the life he had created and watch us trying to solve the problems? Why are you so afraid of following up the implications of your own humanizing speculations?

I stick by my approach that He has objectives (purposes) without experiencing self-satisfaction, as we do. I do not think He could avoid the problems that come as part of the creation of a living planet, but with our brains we have solved many so far. He didn't ask us to solve the problems created, He gave us the brains so we could, because we are forced to. And I'm sure He is watching. My humanizing approach is quite opposite yours.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Monday, February 13, 2017, 13:31 (2840 days ago) @ David Turell

Dhw: It is impossible to look for purpose without “humanizing”, and as I have said before, it is just as presumptuous to assume that he has no human attributes as to assume that he has none.
DAVID: You have had Him looking for entertainment or enjoyment. That is what I object to. I see humans here when there are no good reason for it, except God's desire to produce them. For me it is easy to accept that as a primary fact. How that creates emotions in Him is an area that need not be considered.

I didn’t say that the presence of humans “creates emotions in Him”. My point is a) that (if he exists) he must have had a reason for creating humans, and b) it is not unreasonable to suppose that since nothing existed before him, he may share some of the attributes with which he has endowed us humans. But you are right: we do not “need” to consider any of the subjects we discuss. However, we have embarked on these discussions because they are important to us, and I do not see why we should suddenly limit their scope to your own guesses concerning God’s purposes.

DAVID: Figuring out how to relate to His personage is a more difficult issue. I approach Him hoping He is interested, nothing more. Bleak? Yes. But anything more is a human invention based on how we are.

In your next passage you tell us: “I’m sure He is watching.” One moment you hope, the next moment you are sure (unless you think he watches although he’s NOT interested) - and why shouldn’t you be sure, since that is your faith? But what in my view you should not do is attack alternatives on the grounds that they “humanize” God, when your own faith is based on your own humanized version of him. See my final comment.

DAVID: I stick by my approach that He has objectives (purposes) without experiencing self-satisfaction, as we do.

Pure speculation on your part.

DAVID: I do not think He could avoid the problems that come as part of the creation of a living planet…

And yet you accused me of trying to impose limitations on his powers!

DAVID: ...but with our brains we have solved many so far. He didn't ask us to solve the problems created, He gave us the brains so we could, because we are forced to.

I believe you when you say he didn’t actually order you to solve the problems, but you have told us that was his “tough-love” purpose.

DAVID: And I'm sure He is watching. My humanizing approach is quite opposite yours.

That is the nub of the whole matter. You dismiss alternative versions of your God’s purpose on the grounds that they “humanize” him, though you admit that your own version also humanizes him. The problem is quite simply that you do not want to consider any view of God’s purpose that differs from your own. One last question: since you are always the one looking for purpose, and since you are sure God created us, and since you are sure God is watching us, what do you think might be God’s purpose for watching us?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Monday, February 13, 2017, 16:58 (2840 days ago) @ dhw


dhw:I didn’t say that the presence of humans “creates emotions in Him”. My point is a) that (if he exists) he must have had a reason for creating humans, and b) it is not unreasonable to suppose that since nothing existed before him, he may share some of the attributes with which he has endowed us humans. But you are right: we do not “need” to consider any of the subjects we discuss. However, we have embarked on these discussions because they are important to us, and I do not see why we should suddenly limit their scope to your own guesses concerning God’s purposes.

We have gone 'round and 'round about this subject. You have your view. I have mine. I try to humanize Him as little as possible. You more so. It doesn't go anywhere.


DAVID: Figuring out how to relate to His personage is a more difficult issue. I approach Him hoping He is interested, nothing more. Bleak? Yes. But anything more is a human invention based on how we are.

DAVID: I stick by my approach that He has objectives (purposes) without experiencing self-satisfaction, as we do.

dhw: Pure speculation on your part.

Of course, based on the point that He is a personage like no other.

DAVID: ...but with our brains we have solved many so far. He didn't ask us to solve the problems created, He gave us the brains so we could, because we are forced to.

dhw: I believe you when you say he didn’t actually order you to solve the problems, but you have told us that was his “tough-love” purpose.

Tough love is His approach to us, not a purpose, since He gave us big brains which can solve problems.


DAVID: And I'm sure He is watching. My humanizing approach is quite opposite yours.

dhw: That is the nub of the whole matter. You dismiss alternative versions of your God’s purpose on the grounds that they “humanize” him, though you admit that your own version also humanizes him. The problem is quite simply that you do not want to consider any view of God’s purpose that differs from your own. One last question: since you are always the one looking for purpose, and since you are sure God created us, and since you are sure God is watching us, what do you think might be God’s purpose for watching us?

He created us. Why shouldn't He be interested in seeing how we handle problems? Interested not purposeful.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Tuesday, February 14, 2017, 12:05 (2839 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw:I didn’t say that the presence of humans “creates emotions in Him”. My point is a) that (if he exists) he must have had a reason for creating humans, and b) it is not unreasonable to suppose that since nothing existed before him, he may share some of the attributes with which he has endowed us humans.

DAVID: We have gone 'round and 'round about this subject. You have your view. I have mine. I try to humanize Him as little as possible. You more so. It doesn't go anywhere.

As regards going nowhere, see my post under “particles and connections”. Initially you dismissed my alternative view of God as “humanizing”. Now you have realized that you too are humanizing him, and so it becomes a matter of degree and not going anywhere. But we are going somewhere, as is clear from the following exchange:

DAVID: And I'm sure He is watching. My humanizing approach is quite opposite yours.
dhw: That is the nub of the whole matter. You dismiss alternative versions of your God’s purpose on the grounds that they “humanize” him, though you admit that your own version also humanizes him. The problem is quite simply that you do not want to consider any view of God’s purpose that differs from your own. One last question: since you are always the one looking for purpose, and since you are sure God created us, and since you are sure God is watching us, what do you think might be God’s purpose for watching us?

DAVID: He created us. Why shouldn't He be interested in seeing how we handle problems? Interested not purposeful.

Thank you for putting my case for me. If he created us in order to set us problems, and now watches us with interest, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that he actually created us so that he would have something interesting to watch.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Tuesday, February 14, 2017, 14:29 (2839 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: He created us. Why shouldn't He be interested in seeing how we handle problems? Interested not purposeful.

dhw; Thank you for putting my case for me. If he created us in order to set us problems, and now watches us with interest, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that he actually created us so that he would have something interesting to watch.

No, I'm not. Your approach is much too humanizing for me. He didn't feel the need to create something interesting. He simply had a specific goal, the creation of humans.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Wednesday, February 15, 2017, 08:25 (2838 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: And I'm sure He is watching. My humanizing approach is quite opposite yours.

dhw: That is the nub of the whole matter. You dismiss alternative versions of your God’s purpose on the grounds that they “humanize” him, though you admit that your own version also humanizes him. The problem is quite simply that you do not want to consider any view of God’s purpose that differs from your own. One last question: since you are always the one looking for purpose, and since you are sure God created us, and since you are sure God is watching us, what do you think might be God’s purpose for watching us?

DAVID: He created us. Why shouldn't He be interested in seeing how we handle problems? Interested not purposeful.

dhw; Thank you for putting my case for me. If he created us in order to set us problems, and now watches us with interest, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that he actually created us so that he would have something interesting to watch.

DAVID: No, I'm not. Your approach is much too humanizing for me. He didn't feel the need to create something interesting. He simply had a specific goal, the creation of humans.

Once more you state your beliefs with authority, as if you had access to your God’s thoughts. He only wanted to create humans and…what? He had no reason for doing so? (A few days ago, he wanted a relationship with us, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside in view of communication problems with a hidden being who has nothing in common with us.) According to you, your God is all-purposeful, so why are you so unwilling to accept that if he created us, set us problems, and is watching our efforts to handle them, he might just possibly have created us in order to set us problems in order to watch us handling them?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Wednesday, February 15, 2017, 18:45 (2838 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: No, I'm not. Your approach is much too humanizing for me. He didn't feel the need to create something interesting. He simply had a specific goal, the creation of humans.

dhw: Once more you state your beliefs with authority, as if you had access to your God’s thoughts. He only wanted to create humans and…what? He had no reason for doing so? (A few days ago, he wanted a relationship with us, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside in view of communication problems with a hidden being who has nothing in common with us.) According to you, your God is all-purposeful, so why are you so unwilling to accept that if he created us, set us problems, and is watching our efforts to handle them, he might just possibly have created us in order to set us problems in order to watch us handling them?

I'm sure He is definitely interested in following what we do. And I've said He is a tough love God. You've just defined Him as I do. He's left us with problems to work out, I think primarily because He could not avoid them in creation. I've warned you. Don't accept what religions say about Him

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Thursday, February 16, 2017, 09:13 (2837 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Your approach is much too humanizing for me. He didn't feel the need to create something interesting. He simply had a specific goal, the creation of humans.
dhw: Once more you state your beliefs with authority, as if you had access to your God’s thoughts. He only wanted to create humans and…what? He had no reason for doing so? (A few days ago, he wanted a relationship with us, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside in view of communication problems with a hidden being who has nothing in common with us.) According to you, your God is all-purposeful, so why are you so unwilling to accept that if he created us, set us problems, and is watching our efforts to handle them, he might just possibly have created us in order to set us problems in order to watch us handling them?
DAVID: I'm sure He is definitely interested in following what we do. And I've said He is a tough love God. You've just defined Him as I do. He's left us with problems to work out, I think primarily because He could not avoid them in creation. I've warned you. Don't accept what religions say about Him.

I really don’t think you need to warn an agnostic against accepting what religions say about your God. As one hypothesis concerning God’s purpose, I have proposed that he created life as a show or spectacle for himself to enjoy watching. You have vehemently opposed this hypothesis. However, you are quite sure that he created the whole of life, that he remains hidden, but is definitely interested in following what we do. Perhaps you dislike the word “enjoy”, but I can’t see that as being more humanizing than “watch with interest”. And if he is watching, I can’t see any reason why we shouldn’t call what he is watching a show or spectacle. So please explain to me why it is unreasonable to suppose that if your all-purposeful God created the whole of life, including humans, and is definitely watching with interest, it may have been his purpose to create something that he could watch (a spectacle) with interest (enjoyment).

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, February 16, 2017, 20:30 (2837 days ago) @ dhw

dhw:As one hypothesis concerning God’s purpose, I have proposed that he created life as a show or spectacle for himself to enjoy watching. You have vehemently opposed this hypothesis. However, you are quite sure that he created the whole of life, that he remains hidden, but is definitely interested in following what we do. Perhaps you dislike the word “enjoy”, but I can’t see that as being more humanizing than “watch with interest”. And if he is watching, I can’t see any reason why we shouldn’t call what he is watching a show or spectacle. So please explain to me why it is unreasonable to suppose that if your all-purposeful God created the whole of life, including humans, and is definitely watching with interest, it may have been his purpose to create something that he could watch (a spectacle) with interest (enjoyment).

I think of God as all purposeful. He is not human, a special personage. He may not feel a need for enjoyment, but since we are His goal in creation, I would think He would observe and watch. Perhaps He feels some pleasure in watching what He created. But you may prefer a more personal God than I am describing. We cannot know that or expect it. On the other hand I do try to approach Him personally.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Friday, February 17, 2017, 14:09 (2836 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I think of God as all purposeful. He is not human, a special personage. He may not feel a need for enjoyment, but since we are His goal in creation, I would think He would observe and watch. Perhaps He feels some pleasure in watching what He created. But you may prefer a more personal God than I am describing. We cannot know that or expect it. On the other hand I do try to approach Him personally.

I have not said anything at all about “preferring” a more personal God. I am merely pointing out that if he is all purposeful, he must have had a purpose in producing humans. If he is watching them with interest, then maybe his purpose was to produce something he could watch with interest. Previously you have vehemently denied that his purpose might have been to create a show he could “feel some pleasure in watching”. Thank you for now agreeing that it is possible. And thank you for your honesty in telling us that you do try to approach him personally. I would suggest that this means it is you who may prefer a more personal God. I can’t believe you would waste your time approaching a god you thought had nothing in common with you.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Friday, February 17, 2017, 18:45 (2836 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I have not said anything at all about “preferring” a more personal God. I am merely pointing out that if he is all purposeful, he must have had a purpose in producing humans. If he is watching them with interest, then maybe his purpose was to produce something he could watch with interest. Previously you have vehemently denied that his purpose might have been to create a show he could “feel some pleasure in watching”. Thank you for now agreeing that it is possible. And thank you for your honesty in telling us that you do try to approach him personally. I would suggest that this means it is you who may prefer a more personal God. I can’t believe you would waste your time approaching a god you thought had nothing in common with you.

I think perhaps you now understand my personal conflict. I try not to approach God as in any way human, while trying to relate to Him. You have not said you 'prefer' a more personal god, but that is what your humanizing implies to me, when trying to understand your theistic thinking..

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Saturday, February 18, 2017, 14:10 (2835 days ago) @ David Turell

I am linking four posts in order to avoid repetition.

dhw: …And thank you for your honesty in telling us that you do try to approach him personally. I would suggest that this means it is you who may prefer a more personal God. I can’t believe you would waste your time approaching a god you thought had nothing in common with you.
DAVID: I think perhaps you now understand my personal conflict. I try not to approach God as in any way human, while trying to relate to Him. You have not said you 'prefer' a more personal god, but that is what your humanizing implies to me, when trying to understand your theistic thinking.

Your personal conflict seems to me symptomatic of all the contradictions I keep pointing out. What you call my humanizing is simply an attempt to fit the image to the evidence we have. If your God exists, and if he is watching us but remains hidden, as you claim, then maybe he created life in order to watch the ever-changing spectacle of pain and pleasure. You could scarcely imagine a less personal God. Your initial vehement resistance (now modified) to such a concept, and your authoritative statement that your God does not contain a smidgen of evil, can only have sprung from your own desire for the all-good, personal God you find yourself approaching. (NB I am not promulgating any particular view myself. I am just offering an alternative to your own bundle of contradictions.)

dhw: Life requires energy. The balance of nature changes according to how much energy is available to each species. You have agreed that all it means is life goes on. Nothing to do with your God designing millions of life forms and styles and wonders in order to produce humans.
DAVID: You keep missing the point, or I'm not clear. In the tree of life there are thousands, if not millions of micro-econiches, with balance and energy supply. Millions of life forms are necessary.

You keep using the word “necessary”, and I ask: necessary for what? The millions of micro-econiches are precisely my point. I do not see how they can be necessary for the production of humans, and you don’t either. Nor are they “necessary” for life to continue, because bacteria have done very nicely, thank you, and as you have agreed (under “wolves and bears”): "There would still be a “balance of nature” if humans disappeared."

DAVID: Looks like we really have some agreement. My 'anthropocentric interpretation' is based on the current end point of evolution, humans. If humans are gone, the Earth will return to previous states.

Exactly. And then you will have a different balance of nature. The balance of nature is whatever happens to be alive at any one particular time. Again, nothing to do with the whole of evolution being geared to the production of humans. And even you admit that the attempt to link every life form, lifestyle and natural wonder with humans, despite your God’s ability to dabble, does not make sense.

DAVID: Guess what? It doesn't make sense to me either, but He did not directly create humans.

Obviously he didn’t. And that’s why your hypothesis makes no sense to you or to me.

DAVID: He used an evolutionary process of living organisms, after using an evolutionary process to create the universe and a very special Earth. Go with the evidence that this was His plan from the beginning. Why not?

WHAT was his plan? If he produced all these millions of non-human organisms, 99% of which disappeared, maybe his plan was NOT just to produce humans, but to produce the ever-changing spectacle of different life forms that constitutes life’s history (though he could still have dabbled humans). Go with the evidence!

DAVID (under “carnivores”): : The insect catchers have a complex mechanism. I doubt it could develop stepwise, I think God helped.
dhw: God “helped” is a little odd. Presumably it means these plants and frogs had a great idea but couldn’t quite pull it off, so God stepped in to show them, because without their special methods of catching prey, there would be no balance of nature to enable life to go on so that he could eventually dabble with the brains of pre-humans.
DAVID: Remember each of these organisms are in their own micro-econiches of balance of nature. It is not one huge balance.

Of course they are in their niche. And if they die out, it’s because the niche is not balanced in their favour. How does that prove that God designed them in order to balance nature in order for life to go on in order for him to produce humans?

DAVID: I don't think the organisms could pull this off in several steps.

I never said they could.

DAVID: They look like they need to be developed all at once, as a saltation. God helping would not be 'odd'.

It’s the implication that is odd. Either they could or they couldn’t do it themselves. God helping them suggests they were trying autonomously and couldn’t do it, so God stepped in – because he needed these prey-catching methods to balance nature in order for life to go on etc. Your hypothesis doesn’t make sense to you, and yet you still cling to it.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, February 18, 2017, 16:02 (2835 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I think perhaps you now understand my personal conflict. I try not to approach God as in any way human, while trying to relate to Him. You have not said you 'prefer' a more personal god, but that is what your humanizing implies to me, when trying to understand your theistic thinking.

dhw: If your God exists, and if he is watching us but remains hidden, as you claim, then maybe he created life in order to watch the ever-changing spectacle of pain and pleasure. You could scarcely imagine a less personal God. Your initial vehement resistance (now modified) to such a concept, and your authoritative statement that your God does not contain a smidgen of evil, can only have sprung from your own desire for the all-good, personal God you find yourself approaching. I am just offering an alternative to your own bundle of contradictions.

Why should God have a 'smidgen' of evil? Your word. Explain please. I'm sure He watches His creation for His own reasons, which cannot be ascertained by simple humans.

DAVID: You keep missing the point, or I'm not clear. In the tree of life there are thousands, if not millions of micro-econiches, with balance and energy supply. Millions of life forms are necessary.

dhw: You keep using the word “necessary”, and I ask: necessary for what? The millions of micro-econiches are precisely my point. I do not see how they can be necessary for the production of humans, and you don’t either.

I keep telling you. Necessary for food energy supply so evolution can continue over the 3.8 billion years until humans are formed.

dhw: Nor are they “necessary” for life to continue, because bacteria have done very nicely, thank you, and as you have agreed (under “wolves and bears”): "There would still be a “balance of nature” if humans disappeared."

You keep ignoring the point that evolution takes a long time and the eaten are necessary for food..


DAVID: Looks like we really have some agreement. My 'anthropocentric interpretation' is based on the current end point of evolution, humans. If humans are gone, the Earth will return to previous states.

dhw: Exactly. And then you will have a different balance of nature. The balance of nature is whatever happens to be alive at any one particular time. Again, nothing to do with the whole of evolution being geared to the production of humans.

Missed the point again. Evolution takes time to get to the production of humans. Food is needed all the way.

dhw: And even you admit that the attempt to link every life form, lifestyle and natural wonder with humans, despite your God’s ability to dabble, does not make sense.

I didn't say that it made no sense. I don't know why God chose an evolutionary method, but it implies that He is limited in powers and had to by dabbling along the way.


DAVID: Guess what? It doesn't make sense to me either, but He did not directly create humans.

dhw: Obviously he didn’t. And that’s why your hypothesis makes no sense to you or to me.

My view explained above.


DAVID: He used an evolutionary process of living organisms, after using an evolutionary process to create the universe and a very special Earth. Go with the evidence that this was His plan from the beginning. Why not?

dhw: WHAT was his plan? If he produced all these millions of non-human organisms, 99% of which disappeared, maybe his plan was NOT just to produce humans, but to produce the ever-changing spectacle of different life forms that constitutes life’s history (though he could still have dabbled humans). Go with the evidence!

Review my statement above. It seems He could not directly create humans in the beginning.

DAVID: Remember each of these organisms are in their own micro-econiches of balance of nature. It is not one huge balance.

dhw: Of course they are in their niche. And if they die out, it’s because the niche is not balanced in their favour. How does that prove that God designed them in order to balance nature in order for life to go on in order for him to produce humans?

As before, evolution needs energy to continue. 3.8 billion years to reach humans is a long time of energy requirements.


DAVID: I don't think the organisms could pull this off in several steps.

dhw: I never said they could.

DAVID: They look like they need to be developed all at once, as a saltation. God helping would not be 'odd'.

dhw: It’s the implication that is odd. Either they could or they couldn’t do it themselves. God helping them suggests they were trying autonomously and couldn’t do it, so God stepped in – because he needed these prey-catching methods to balance nature in order for life to go on etc. Your hypothesis doesn’t make sense to you, and yet you still cling to it.

Your same twist. I still maintain the bush of life is balanced in its many niches to supply energy for evolution. Makes perfect sense to me if humans are the goal.
And you made no note of the obstetrical dilemma article about human big brains where it is obvious God had to play a major role.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Sunday, February 19, 2017, 11:29 (2834 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: If your God exists, and if he is watching us but remains hidden, as you claim, then maybe he created life in order to watch the ever-changing spectacle of pain and pleasure. You could scarcely imagine a less personal God. Your initial vehement resistance (now modified) to such a concept, and your authoritative statement that your God does not contain a smidgen of evil, can only have sprung from your own desire for the all-good, personal God you find yourself approaching. I am just offering an alternative to your own bundle of contradictions.
DAVID: Why should God have a 'smidgen' of evil? Your word. Explain please. I'm sure He watches His creation for His own reasons, which cannot be ascertained by simple humans.

It was your word: Saturday 4 February at 22.44: “I don’t believe God has any smidgen of evil in himself. Evil is the result of what he has created: the physical forces of Earth, the evil in freedom-of-choice imperfect humans. That he allowed the results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve these problems, and we are doing just that.”

It seems to me that a) if God created everything, he could hardly have created something that he was totally ignorant of, and b) a God who created diseases and natural disasters (though we mustn’t forget all the good and beautiful things he has also created), and who watches them happen and doesn’t care, might have created them with the purpose of having a spectacle of good and bad things that he can watch without caring. But I can well understand your dilemma as you make your personal approach to him.

The next exchange concerns “balance of nature”, and I will summarize the argument before quoting you: all forms of life need energy. According to you, God had to specially design all life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct in order to keep life going till he could dabble humans.

dhw: And even you admit that the attempt to link every life form, lifestyle and natural wonder with humans, despite your God’s ability to dabble, does not make sense.
DAVID: I didn't say that it made no sense. I don't know why God chose an evolutionary method, but it implies that He is limited in powers and had to by dabbling along the way.

Here is our exchange:
Dhw: 17 February at 18.54 under “particles and connections”: The problem with your hypothesis is the nature of your plan: you insist that your God, who is always in tight control, geared everything right from the beginning to the production of humans, which leads you to have him designing nests and flight paths and parasites and frogs' tongues and fishy camouflage etc. in order to keep life going before he can dabble with the brains of humans - and his ability to dabble makes even you wonder why he couldn't have produced us more directly. It just doesn't make sense.
DAVID: Guess what? It doesn't make sense to me either, but He did not directly create humans. He used an evolutionary process of living organisms, after using an evolutionary process to create the universe and a very special Earth. Go with the evidence that this was His plan from the beginning. Why not?

It doesn’t make sense to you that God had to design all these life forms, lifestyles and wonders to keep life going till he could do a dabble, but that is what happened, so God couldn’t do it any other way. The being who created the laws of nature is now limited by the laws of nature. I am offering the hypothesis that maybe your God did NOT set out from the beginning only to produce humans – though he may have dabbled them – but to produce the ever changing spectacle that constitutes the whole history of life on Earth. If your version doesn’t make sense to you, then why not consider an alternative?

DAVID: [The carnivorous plants and frogs’ tongues] look like they need to be developed all at once, as a saltation. God helping would not be 'odd'.
dhw: It’s the implication that is odd. Either they could or they couldn’t do it themselves. God helping them suggests they were trying autonomously and couldn’t do it, so God stepped in – because he needed these prey-catching methods to balance nature in order for life to go on etc. Your hypothesis doesn’t make sense to you, and yet you still cling to it.
DAVID: Your same twist. I still maintain the bush of life is balanced in its many niches to supply energy for evolution. Makes perfect sense to me if humans are the goal.

Your same twist. Nobody would deny that all living forms need energy, but two days ago it did not make sense to you that your God had to design all these life forms before he could dabble humans. If this is a misunderstanding, please explain what it is that does not make sense to you.

DAVID: And you made no note of the obstetrical dilemma article about human big brains where it is obvious God had to play a major role.

You can call that a dabble if you like. It doesn’t mean that your God had to design frogs’ tongues in order to keep life going before he could dabble humans.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Sunday, February 19, 2017, 19:38 (2834 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Why should God have a 'smidgen' of evil? Your word. Explain please. I'm sure He watches His creation for His own reasons, which cannot be ascertained by simple humans.

dhw; It was your word: Saturday 4 February at 22.44: “I don’t believe God has any smidgen of evil in himself. Evil is the result of what he has created: the physical forces of Earth, the evil in freedom-of-choice imperfect humans. That he allowed the results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve these problems, and we are doing just that.”

It seems to me that a) if God created everything, he could hardly have created something that he was totally ignorant of,

I'm sure God knew of the problem issues. He gave us the big brain to deal with it.

dhw: The next exchange concerns “balance of nature”, and I will summarize the argument before quoting you: all forms of life need energy. According to you, God had to specially design all life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct in order to keep life going till he could dabble humans.

Not just dabble. It is my bedrock position that God planned for humans. As you know, everything I propose is based on that starting point


dhw: It doesn’t make sense to you that God had to design all these life forms, lifestyles and wonders to keep life going till he could do a dabble, but that is what happened, so God couldn’t do it any other way. The being who created the laws of nature is now limited by the laws of nature. I am offering the hypothesis that maybe your God did NOT set out from the beginning only to produce humans – though he may have dabbled them – but to produce the ever changing spectacle that constitutes the whole history of life on Earth. If your version doesn’t make sense to you, then why not consider an alternative?

As above, because his main purpose was to create humans.

dhw: Nobody would deny that all living forms need energy, but two days ago it did not make sense to you that your God had to design all these life forms before he could dabble humans. If this is a misunderstanding, please explain what it is that does not make sense to you.

DAVID: And you made no note of the obstetrical dilemma article about human big brains where it is obvious God had to play a major role.

dhw:You can call that a dabble if you like. It doesn’t mean that your God had to design frogs’ tongues in order to keep life going before he could dabble humans.

More than dabble. God wanted to make sure they arrived. Remember the title of this discussion. God used a very long, a 3.8 billion year process to produce humans. Frog's tongues are just part of the amazing balance of nature. The process had to be taken from very complex bacterial cells, still here, to the very highly complex big-brained humans, who appeared in big jumps in complex forms and functions. Our research does not tell us how those giant speciation gaps were crossed, but design is so obvious its consideration cannot be avoided, since the gaps require intense advanced planning. All you've come up with is maybe organisms could design their own advances, an ability not yet demonstrated. If we keep unearthing increasing living complexity, but no intrinsic organismal design mechanism , only God is left to consider. That is the main thrust of my argument. Planning mind is required.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Monday, February 20, 2017, 15:58 (2833 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: It seems to me that a) if God created everything, he could hardly have created something that he was totally ignorant of,
David: I'm sure God knew of the problem issues. He gave us the big brain to deal with it.

According to you, he created the problem issues, and yet according to you he does not have a “smidgen of evil” in him. Also according to you, he doesn’t care what suffering his diseases and natural disasters cause. Let us for a moment forget the beauty of the world (for which due credit must of course be given), and tell me how you would describe a being who deliberately created the causes of appalling suffering but didn’t care?

dhw: The next exchange concerns “balance of nature”, and I will summarize the argument before quoting you: all forms of life need energy. According to you, God had to specially design all life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct in order to keep life going till he could dabble humans.
DAVID: Not just dabble. It is my bedrock position that God planned for humans. As you know, everything I propose is based on that starting point.

I thought you believed your God dabbled with pre-human brains. But it makes no difference whether he dabbled or included a human-brain programme in the millions of programmes you think he inserted into the first cells 3.8 billion years ago. Your bedrock position is still the same.

DAVID: God used a very long, a 3.8 billion year process to produce humans.

He used a very long, 3.8 billion year process to produce millions of species, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct, and the argument that he had to do so in order to produce humans makes no sense to you, but it is your bedrock position that this nonsensical scenario is true.

DAVID: Frog's tongues are just part of the amazing balance of nature.

An “amazing” process by which 99% of species die out because the balance of nature means nothing more than there being enough energy for some organisms to survive but not for others. Lucky old frogs – but that still doesn’t explain why their tongues had to be specifically designed so that humans could evolve.

DAVID: The process had to be taken from very complex bacterial cells, still here, to the very highly complex big-brained humans, who appeared in big jumps in complex forms and functions. Our research does not tell us how those giant speciation gaps were crossed but design is so obvious its consideration cannot be avoided, since the gaps require intense advanced planning. All you've come up with is maybe organisms could design their own advances, an ability not yet demonstrated.

Adaptation has been demonstrated over and over again, but neither my autonomous inventive mechanism, nor Darwin's innovative random mutations, nor your divine 3.8-billion-year computer programme for every innovation, nor your divine dabbling have yet been demonstrated. If the objection applies to one hypothesis, it applies to them all.

DAVID: If we keep unearthing increasing living complexity, but no intrinsic organismal design mechanism , only God is left to consider. That is the main thrust of my argument. Planning mind is required.

An “intrinsic organismal design mechanism” (previously known as an autonomous inventive mechanism) does not exclude God, since we are still left with the origin of the mechanism itself. You constantly shift the subject from what you yourself consider to be the non-sense of your 100% preprogramming/dabbling hypothesis to the existence of God.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Monday, February 20, 2017, 17:45 (2833 days ago) @ dhw

David: I'm sure God knew of the problem issues. He gave us the big brain to deal with it.

dhw: According to you, he created the problem issues, and yet according to you he does not have a “smidgen of evil” in him. Also according to you, he doesn’t care what suffering his diseases and natural disasters cause. Let us for a moment forget the beauty of the world (for which due credit must of course be given), and tell me how you would describe a being who deliberately created the causes of appalling suffering but didn’t care?

You've twisted my concept again. I have suggested He had to accept the problems and could not avoid them. Please review my comments.

DAVID: Not just dabble. It is my bedrock position that God planned for humans. As you know, everything I propose is based on that starting point.

dhw: I thought you believed your God dabbled with pre-human brains. But it makes no difference whether he dabbled or included a human-brain programme in the millions of programmes you think he inserted into the first cells 3.8 billion years ago. Your bedrock position is still the same.

Yes, the same. Of course He had to dabble with early primate brains to reach the current brain size and complexity.


DAVID: God used a very long, a 3.8 billion year process to produce humans.

He used a very long, 3.8 billion year process to produce millions of species, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct, and the argument that he had to do so in order to produce humans makes no sense to you, but it is your bedrock position that this nonsensical scenario is true.

Again twisting. I have said I don't understand why He used such a long evolutionary period of time. It appears He either wanted to or had to. That is the way I make sense of it, as I have said before.


DAVID: Frog's tongues are just part of the amazing balance of nature.

dhw: An “amazing” process by which 99% of species die out because the balance of nature means nothing more than there being enough energy for some organisms to survive but not for others. Lucky old frogs – but that still doesn’t explain why their tongues had to be specifically designed so that humans could evolve.

I don't accept your style of description of of balance of nature. I view it as absolutely necessary. The frog tongue is specialized to help him live in his balance of nature.


DAVID: The process had to be taken from very complex bacterial cells, still here, to the very highly complex big-brained humans, who appeared in big jumps in complex forms and functions. Our research does not tell us how those giant speciation gaps were crossed but design is so obvious its consideration cannot be avoided, since the gaps require intense advanced planning. All you've come up with is maybe organisms could design their own advances, an ability not yet demonstrated.

dhw: Adaptation has been demonstrated over and over again, but neither my autonomous inventive mechanism, nor Darwin's innovative random mutations, nor your divine 3.8-billion-year computer programme for every innovation, nor your divine dabbling have yet been demonstrated. If the objection applies to one hypothesis, it applies to them all.

Correct. All we know is adaptation does not lead to speciation. I'm sure you've noticed the gaps are too big.


DAVID: If we keep unearthing increasing living complexity, but no intrinsic organismal design mechanism , only God is left to consider. That is the main thrust of my argument. Planning mind is required.

dhw: An “intrinsic organismal design mechanism” (previously known as an autonomous inventive mechanism) does not exclude God, since we are still left with the origin of the mechanism itself. You constantly shift the subject from what you yourself consider to be the non-sense of your 100% preprogramming/dabbling hypothesis to the existence of God.

It is obvious you cannot get rid of God in your own thinking with your own God-lite
IM proposal. Chance or design (not God-lite) is all there can be.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Tuesday, February 21, 2017, 11:26 (2832 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: According to you, he created the problem issues, and yet according to you he does not have a “smidgen of evil” in him. Also according to you, he doesn’t care what suffering his diseases and natural disasters cause. Let us for a moment forget the beauty of the world (for which due credit must of course be given), and tell me how you would describe a being who deliberately created the causes of appalling suffering but didn’t care?
DAVID: You've twisted my concept again. I have suggested He had to accept the problems and could not avoid them. Please review my comments.

No twisting. Your own statements raise two issues. Firstly, you claim that your God was forced (presumably by the laws of Nature which he had created, since he created everything) to create diseases and natural disasters in order to produce humans. And now he watches to see if humans can solve the problems that he couldn’t solve! None of that makes sense. Secondly, on Saturday 4 February at 22.44 you wrote: “I don’t believe God has any smidgen of evil in himself. Evil is the result of what he has created: the physical forces of Earth, the evil in freedom-of-choice imperfect humans. That he allowed the results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve these problems, and we are doing just that.” (My bold) According to you, he didn’t “allow” the results but he had no choice – and he doesn’t care. Quite apart from the fact that not caring is every bit as “humanizing” as caring, I would like to know what you would call a being who inflicts suffering and doesn’t care.

DAVID: God used a very long, a 3.8 billion year process to produce humans.
Dhw: He used a very long, 3.8 billion year process to produce millions of species, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct, and the argument that he had to do so in order to produce humans makes no sense to you, but it is your bedrock position that this nonsensical scenario is true.
DAVID: Again twisting. I have said I don't understand why He used such a long evolutionary period of time. It appears He either wanted to or had to. That is the way I make sense of it, as I have said before.

Feb. 17 at 18.54 (under “particles and connections”): dhw: ….you insist that your God, who is always in tight control, geared everything right from the beginning to the production of humans, which leads you to have him designing nests and flight paths and parasites and frogs' tongues and fishy camouflage etc. in order to keep life going before he can dabble with the brains of humans - and his ability to dabble makes even you wonder why he couldn't have produced us more directly. It just doesn't make sense.
DAVID: Guess what? It doesn't make sense to me either, but He did not directly create humans. He used an evolutionary process of living organisms, after using an evolutionary process to create the universe and a very special Earth.

It doesn’t make sense to you, but that’s what happened, so he either wanted or had to do it in a way that makes no sense to you. You refuse to consider the possibility that in devising the evolutionary process he might have had perfectly understandable intentions different from those that you impose on him.

DAVID: I don't accept your style of description of balance of nature. I view it as absolutely necessary. The frog tongue is specialized to help him live in his balance of nature.

Yes, the frog’s tongue, just like every other lifestyle and natural wonder, is specialized to enable him to survive, and each organism has its own “balance” within its own niche, and 99% have died out because what you call the “balance of nature” is whatever affects individual organisms and has nothing whatsoever to do with your God designing every lifestyle and wonder in order to keep life going until humans could arrive.

dhw: An “intrinsic organismal design mechanism” (previously known as an autonomous inventive mechanism) does not exclude God, since we are still left with the origin of the mechanism itself. You constantly shift the subject from what you yourself consider to be the non-sense of your 100% preprogramming/dabbling hypothesis to the existence of God.
DAVID: It is obvious you cannot get rid of God in your own thinking with your own God-lite IM proposal. Chance or design (not God-lite) is all there can be.

Of course I can’t get rid of God. I am an agnostic. I can neither believe nor disbelieve. But it is not God-lite to disagree with your personal reading of your God’s mind, especially when that reading results in a scenario which does not make sense even to you and can only be explained by your claim that he must have wanted or been forced to do it your way. Maybe your way is NOT the correct reading of his mind.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Tuesday, February 21, 2017, 18:41 (2832 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: You've twisted my concept again. I have suggested He had to accept the problems and could not avoid them. Please review my comments.

dhw: No twisting. Your own statements raise two issues. Firstly, you claim that your God was forced (presumably by the laws of Nature which he had created, since he created everything) to create diseases and natural disasters in order to produce humans. And now he watches to see if humans can solve the problems that he couldn’t solve! None of that makes sense.

I'm not sure where your analysis comes from. Earth with plate tectonics supports life. Volcanoes and earthquakes are necessary byproducts of that arrangement. God should disallow those side effects? Like love and marriage, they are inextricably tied together. You want Him to step in and protect us. you sound like a priest or rabbi.

dhw:According to you, he didn’t “allow” the results but he had no choice – and he doesn’t care. Quite apart from the fact that not caring is every bit as “humanizing” as caring, I would like to know what you would call a being who inflicts suffering and doesn’t care.

I don't know that He doesn't care. I don't remember ever saying that. Again, it is most possible He had no choice in those bad results, but He had enough to give us big brains to solve the problems. Perfectly reasonable.

DAVID: Guess what? It doesn't make sense to me either, but He did not directly create humans. He used an evolutionary process of living organisms, after using an evolutionary process to create the universe and a very special Earth.

dhw: It doesn’t make sense to you, but that’s what happened, so he either wanted or had to do it in a way that makes no sense to you. You refuse to consider the possibility that in devising the evolutionary process he might have had perfectly understandable intentions different from those that you impose on him.

He might have other purposes. We don't see any obvious ones, but remember I start from the conclusion He wanted humans, and that is history. We are not studying human history. We are studying God's creations to infer intentions, a very different process of analysis.


DAVID: I don't accept your style of description of balance of nature. I view it as absolutely necessary. The frog tongue is specialized to help him live in his balance of nature.

dhw: Yes, the frog’s tongue, just like every other lifestyle and natural wonder, is specialized to enable him to survive, and each organism has its own “balance” within its own niche, and 99% have died out because what you call the “balance of nature” is whatever affects individual organisms and has nothing whatsoever to do with your God designing every lifestyle and wonder in order to keep life going until humans could arrive.

God is only developing an energy-supplying balance of nature to allow for billions of years of evolution. So simple to see.

DAVID: It is obvious you cannot get rid of God in your own thinking with your own God-lite IM proposal. Chance or design (not God-lite) is all there can be.


dhw: Of course I can’t get rid of God. I am an agnostic. I can neither believe nor disbelieve. But it is not God-lite to disagree with your personal reading of your God’s mind, especially when that reading results in a scenario which does not make sense even to you and can only be explained by your claim that he must have wanted or been forced to do it your way. Maybe your way is NOT the correct reading of his mind.

My way may not be correct. I admit that. Your posture on the fence requires you to use God-lite constantly. Obvious. There is only chance or design; the latter requires a designer! I view you as stuck in limbo.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Wednesday, February 22, 2017, 13:33 (2831 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: No twisting. Your own statements raise two issues. Firstly, you claim that your God was forced (presumably by the laws of Nature which he had created, since he created everything) to create diseases and natural disasters in order to produce humans. And now he watches to see if humans can solve the problems that he couldn’t solve! None of that makes sense.
DAVID: I'm not sure where your analysis comes from. Earth with plate tectonics supports life. Volcanoes and earthquakes are necessary byproducts of that arrangement. God should disallow those side effects? Like love and marriage, they are inextricably tied together. You want Him to step in and protect us. you sound like a priest or rabbi.

No, I don’t want him to step in and protect us. I am simply trying to follow the logic by which your God, who is always in tight control and created out of himself the whole universe and everything in it, now turns out to be strictly limited by the laws he himself created, has no choice other than a method that he knows will cause untold suffering, but also expects us inferior beings to solve the problems he can’t solve.

dhw:According to you, he didn’t “allow” the results but he had no choice – and he doesn’t care. Quite apart from the fact that not caring is every bit as “humanizing” as caring, I would like to know what you would call a being who inflicts suffering and doesn’t care.
DAVID: I don't know that He doesn't care. I don't remember ever saying that.

I gave you the quote: Saturday 4 February at 22.44: “I don’t believe God has any smidgen of evil in himself. Evil is the result of what he has created: the physical forces of Earth, the evil in freedom-of-choice imperfect humans. That he allowed the results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve these problems, and we are doing just that.” (My bold) It’s difficult to hold a discussion if you dissociate yourself from your own statements.

DAVID: Guess what? It doesn't make sense to me either, but He did not directly create humans. He used an evolutionary process of living organisms, after using an evolutionary process to create the universe and a very special Earth.
dhw: It doesn’t make sense to you, but that’s what happened, so he either wanted or had to do it in a way that makes no sense to you. You refuse to consider the possibility that in devising the evolutionary process he might have had perfectly understandable intentions different from those that you impose on him.
DAVID: He might have other purposes. We don't see any obvious ones, but remember I start from the conclusion He wanted humans, and that is history.

Perhaps one should not start with a conclusion, especially when the conclusion leads to a scenario which even you agree makes non-sense of the whole higgledy-piggledy process. God wanting humans is not history. The fact that humans arrived, that the duckbilled platypus arrived, and that 99% of species arrived and departed is history. God’s intentions (if he exists) are speculation.

DAVID: We are not studying human history. We are studying God's creations to infer intentions, a very different process of analysis…
Exactly. And you have agreed that your inferences do not make sense.

DAVID: God is only developing an energy-supplying balance of nature to allow for billions of years of evolution. So simple to see.
Life will always require energy. THAT is simple to see. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the claim that your God had to design every evolutionary twiddly bit in order to keep life going until he could dabble with the pre-human brain or until his 3.X-billion-year-old human brain programme could switch itself on.

DAVID: It is obvious you cannot get rid of God in your own thinking with your own God-lite IM proposal. Chance or design (not God-lite) is all there can be.
dhw: Of course I can’t get rid of God. I am an agnostic. I can neither believe nor disbelieve. But it is not God-lite to disagree with your personal reading of your God’s mind, especially when that reading results in a scenario which does not make sense even to you and can only be explained by your claim that he must have wanted or been forced to do it your way. Maybe your way is NOT the correct reading of his mind.

DAVID: My way may not be correct. I admit that.
Thank you.

DAVID: Your posture on the fence requires you to use God-lite constantly. Obvious. There is only chance or design; the latter requires a designer! I view you as stuck in limbo.

I know you love your new coinage “God-lite”, but God creating a mechanism that would provide an ever changing spectacle of life forms (while allowing him to dabble) is not “God-lite”. It merely offers an alternative to your own avowedly non-sensical interpretation of your God’s evolutionary intentions and methods, and I’m afraid my being stuck in limbo does not endow your scenario with the sense that is so patently missing.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Wednesday, February 22, 2017, 22:56 (2831 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Wednesday, February 22, 2017, 23:19


dhw:According to you, he didn’t “allow” the results but he had no choice – and he doesn’t care. Quite apart from the fact that not caring is every bit as “humanizing” as caring, I would like to know what you would call a being who inflicts suffering and doesn’t care.
DAVID: I don't know that He doesn't care. I don't remember ever saying that.

dhw: I gave you the quote: Saturday 4 February at 22.44: “I don’t believe God has any smidgen of evil in himself. Evil is the result of what he has created: the physical forces of Earth, the evil in freedom-of-choice imperfect humans. That he allowed the results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve these problems, and we are doing just that.” (My bold) It’s difficult to hold a discussion if you dissociate yourself from your own statements.

Thank you for finding the statement. What I meant is that it is definitely possible that He could not control the side effects of how He had to create the Earth. That stands to reason that if his purpose is to create humans and the side effects have to appear. I mean He doesn't care if the side effects happen, but He cares to produce humans. Now it happens that earthquakes kill individual people, but doesn't end the species. This fits Adler's point that God may not be personal or care about individuals. We don't know if God loves us! I'm really pleased you jumped on my statement so tangentially. I had to rethink my positions. You've never understood my basic primacies that I do not come from a position that God loves us. I stay away from religion. Your own concepts of a possible God seem to come from your childhood training. Can you tell me your version of how we should think about God or do you have a version?

DAVID: He might have other purposes. We don't see any obvious ones, but remember I start from the conclusion He wanted humans, and that is history.

dhw: Perhaps one should not start with a conclusion, especially when the conclusion leads to a scenario which even you agree makes non-sense of the whole higgledy-piggledy process. God wanting humans is not history. The fact that humans arrived, that the duckbilled platypus arrived, and that 99% of species arrived and departed is history. God’s intentions (if he exists) are speculation.

I start with another first conclusion. Humans are here against all odds.

DAVID: God is only developing an energy-supplying balance of nature to allow for billions of years of evolution. So simple to see.

dhw: Life will always require energy. THAT is simple to see. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the claim that your God had to design every evolutionary twiddly bit in order to keep life going until he could dabble with the pre-human brain or until his 3.X-billion-year-old human brain programme could switch itself on.

Every oddity makes the necessary battle of nature.


DAVID: Your posture on the fence requires you to use God-lite constantly. Obvious. There is only chance or design; the latter requires a designer! I view you as stuck in limbo.

dhw: I know you love your new coinage “God-lite”, but God creating a mechanism that would provide an ever changing spectacle of life forms (while allowing him to dabble) is not “God-lite”. It merely offers an alternative to your own avowedly non-sensical interpretation of your God’s evolutionary intentions and methods, and I’m afraid my being stuck in limbo does not endow your scenario with the sense that is so patently missing.

You are simple offering God in a slightly different form. Only chance or design are possible.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Thursday, February 23, 2017, 11:31 (2830 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: That he allowed the results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve these problems, and we are doing just that.”
DAVID: Thank you for finding the statement. What I meant is that it is definitely possible that He could not control the side effects of how He had to create the Earth. That stands to reason that if his purpose is to create humans and the side effects have to appear. I mean He doesn't care if the side effects happen, but He cares to produce humans. Now it happens that earthquakes kill individual people, but doesn't end the species. This fits Adler's point that God may not be personal or care about individuals. We don't know if God loves us! I'm really pleased you jumped on my statement so tangentially. I had to rethink my positions.

You are constantly rethinking your positions, which is not a bad thing to do. You have now moved from a God who created everything and has always been in tight control, to a God who may not be in control at all but is at the mercy of his own laws. At times he has been in control of the environment, and at others he has not. Once upon a time he wanted a relationship with us, but since he remains hidden and may not have anything in common with us, he now created us in order to watch us solve problems. He apparently does not have a “smidgen of evil” in him, and yet maybe he doesn’t care if individuals suffer, so long as the species goes on. (What would you call a being who causes untold suffering to individuals but doesn’t care?) He watches with interest, but that doesn’t mean he created us in order to watch us with interest.
Of course we don’t know if God cares or not, and we hardly need Adler to tell us that.

DAVID: You've never understood my basic primacies that I do not come from a position that God loves us. I stay away from religion. Your own concepts of a possible God seem to come from your childhood training. Can you tell me your version of how we should think about God or do you have a version?

I have always understood the dilemma you have mentioned several times: that we do not know if God is “personal” and loving, but all the same you approach him as if he is. And I can quite understand that you will be more comfortable shifting the focus from your own confusion to mine. There is no “should think” for me. I don’t know if God exists, but if he does, I can well imagine him merely watching the spectacle for his own entertainment. On the other hand, it would be nice to imagine him compensating those who have suffered – especially at his hands – by welcoming them to eternal bliss. On the third hand, I can’t imagine anything eternal being blissful. Maybe eternal and dreamless sleep is the best one can hope for – in which case we shall never know if he exists or not. I have never tried to hide my own ambivalent feelings about the existence and nature of God. Our discussions have always centred on the inconsistencies and contradictions in your own concepts. (I don’t mean that unkindly. I don’t think it’s possible to hold firm beliefs in this context without blinding oneself to the obvious objections – hence the ultimate recourse to faith.)

DAVID: He might have other purposes. We don't see any obvious ones, but remember I start from the conclusion He wanted humans, and that is history.
dhw: Perhaps one should not start with a conclusion, especially when the conclusion leads to a scenario which even you agree makes non-sense of the whole higgledy-piggledy process. God wanting humans is not history. The fact that humans arrived, that the duckbilled platypus arrived, and that 99% of species arrived and departed is history. God’s intentions (if he exists) are speculation.
DAVID: I start with another first conclusion. Humans are here against all odds.

So is every other form of life. That is what we are trying to explain.

DAVID: Every oddity makes the necessary battle of nature.

Most perish, and that does not give any support to the theory that every oddity was specially created by your God in order to keep life going till he could dabble with pre-human brains or pre-humans could switch on his brain-enlargement programme.

dhw: I know you love your new coinage “God-lite”, but God creating a mechanism that would provide an ever changing spectacle of life forms (while allowing him to dabble) is not “God-lite”. It merely offers an alternative to your own avowedly non-sensical interpretation of your God’s evolutionary intentions and methods, and I’m afraid my being stuck in limbo does not endow your scenario with the sense that is so patently missing.
DAVID: You are simple offering God in a slightly different form. Only chance or design are possible.

I am pointing out that there is a theistic explanation of the evolutionary process that dispenses with all the factors that make no sense even to you.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, February 23, 2017, 14:52 (2830 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: You are constantly rethinking your positions, which is not a bad thing to do. > Of course we don’t know if God cares or not, and we hardly need Adler to tell us that.

Not so much re-thinking, as in the sense of revising, but more clearly restating my underlying thoughts.


DAVID: You've never understood my basic primacies that I do not come from a position that God loves us. I stay away from religion. Your own concepts of a possible God seem to come from your childhood training. Can you tell me your version of how we should think about God or do you have a version?

dhw: I have never tried to hide my own ambivalent feelings about the existence and nature of God. Our discussions have always centred on the inconsistencies and contradictions in your own concepts. (I don’t mean that unkindly. I don’t think it’s possible to hold firm beliefs in this context without blinding oneself to the obvious objections – hence the ultimate recourse to faith.)

Accepted. You simply cannot give a firm description of a personal theology out of total disbelief. Therefore you cannot answer the question as to which is correct, chance or design.

dhw: The fact that humans arrived, that the duckbilled platypus arrived, and that 99% of species arrived and departed is history. God’s intentions (if he exists) are speculation.[/i]

DAVID: I start with another first conclusion. Humans are here against all odds.

dhw: So is every other form of life. That is what we are trying to explain.

Once life appears against all odds, humans are the most difficult to explain by chance.

dhw: I know you love your new coinage “God-lite”, but God creating a mechanism that would provide an ever changing spectacle of life forms (while allowing him to dabble) is not “God-lite”. It merely offers an alternative to your own avowedly non-sensical interpretation of your God’s evolutionary intentions and methods, and I’m afraid my being stuck in limbo does not endow your scenario with the sense that is so patently missing.

DAVID: You are simple offering God in a slightly different form. Only chance or design are possible.

dhw: I am pointing out that there is a theistic explanation of the evolutionary process that dispenses with all the factors that make no sense even to you.

It is not that God's activities make no 'sense' to me, it is that I don't understand why He chose the methods He did. I'm sure He had His reasons. Only in that way it makes no sense. That doesn't stop me from thinking God is required by the evidence.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Friday, February 24, 2017, 13:03 (2829 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: You are constantly rethinking your positions, which is not a bad thing to do. > Of course we don’t know if God cares or not, and we hardly need Adler to tell us that.
DAVID: Not so much re-thinking, as in the sense of revising, but more clearly restating my underlying thoughts.

We needn’t worry about whether it’s revising or restating, so long as our discussions are useful.

dhw: I have never tried to hide my own ambivalent feelings about the existence and nature of God. Our discussions have always centred on the inconsistencies and contradictions in your own concepts. (I don’t mean that unkindly. I don’t think it’s possible to hold firm beliefs in this context without blinding oneself to the obvious objections – hence the ultimate recourse to faith.)
DAVID: Accepted. You simply cannot give a firm description of a personal theology out of total disbelief.

Sorry, but I don’t understand this sentence. I have neither belief nor disbelief, but am as entitled as anyone else to speculate on God’s nature (if he exists) as reflected in his creations.

DAVID: Therefore you cannot answer the question as to which is correct, chance or design.

What is this “therefore”? Nobody can say which is correct but, as an agnostic, by definition I cannot opt for either answer.

dhw: The fact that humans arrived, that the duckbilled platypus arrived, and that 99% of species arrived and departed is history. God’s intentions (if he exists) are speculation.
DAVID: I start with another first conclusion. Humans are here against all odds.
dhw: So is every other form of life. That is what we are trying to explain.
DAVID: Once life appears against all odds, humans are the most difficult to explain by chance.

“Most difficult” does not explain why your God had to design frogs’ tongues and carnivorous plants before pre-humans could switch on their brain-enlargement programme or be dabbled with. THAT is the subject of dispute here.

dhw: I know you love your new coinage “God-lite”, but God creating a mechanism that would provide an ever changing spectacle of life forms (while allowing him to dabble) is not “God-lite”. It merely offers an alternative to your own avowedly non-sensical interpretation of your God’s evolutionary intentions and methods, and I’m afraid my being stuck in limbo does not endow your scenario with the sense that is so patently missing.
DAVID: You are simple offering God in a slightly different form. Only chance or design are possible.
dhw: I am pointing out that there is a theistic explanation of the evolutionary process that dispenses with all the factors that make no sense even to you.
DAVID: It is not that God's activities make no 'sense' to me, it is that I don't understand why He chose the methods He did. I'm sure He had His reasons. Only in that way it makes no sense. That doesn't stop me from thinking God is required by the evidence.

Our disagreement here is not over the evidence for design. If you can’t understand why he chose those methods, those methods make no sense to you. On the premise that if God exists, he would have known what he was doing, I have suggested an alternative interpretation of his methods that DOES make sense: namely, that he designed a mechanism that could and did produce an ever-changing spectacle (though he may have dabbled occasionally, perhaps to produce humans).) Once again, this hypothesis has nothing to do with WHETHER God exists – it is only concerned with his methods and his intentions.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Friday, February 24, 2017, 22:26 (2829 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Accepted. You simply cannot give a firm description of a personal theology out of total disbelief.

dhw: Sorry, but I don’t understand this sentence. I have neither belief nor disbelief, but am as entitled as anyone else to speculate on God’s nature (if he exists) as reflected in his creations.

I think your disbelief creates a skewed thought pattern as it relates to God and his possible intentions. Of course you have every right to speculate.


DAVID: Once life appears against all odds, humans are the most difficult to explain by chance.

dhw: “Most difficult” does not explain why your God had to design frogs’ tongues and carnivorous plants before pre-humans could switch on their brain-enlargement programme or be dabbled with. THAT is the subject of dispute here.

I keep defending balance of nature to supply food. I've simply said God guides evolution. He may have made living organisms very inventive in the forms they evolve or He may have guided them Himself. We've agreed on these possibilities when you play theist.

DAVID: It is not that God's activities make no 'sense' to me, it is that I don't understand why He chose the methods He did. I'm sure He had His reasons. Only in that way it makes no sense. That doesn't stop me from thinking God is required by the evidence.

dhw: Our disagreement here is not over the evidence for design. If you can’t understand why he chose those methods, those methods make no sense to you. On the premise that if God exists, he would have known what he was doing, I have suggested an alternative interpretation of his methods that DOES make sense: namely, that he designed a mechanism that could and did produce an ever-changing spectacle (though he may have dabbled occasionally, perhaps to produce humans).) Once again, this hypothesis has nothing to do with WHETHER God exists – it is only concerned with his methods and his intentions.

I can agree with your statement, except for the first sentence. I cannot chose for God the mechanisms He uses. I don't know why He made the choices He did, but that does not mean I don't understand the mechanics of His methods.

Evolution took a long time; catagorizing econiches

by David Turell @, Monday, October 09, 2017, 17:47 (2602 days ago) @ David Turell

In any environment there are only limited ways an animal can adapt:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2149843-evolutions-rules-mean-life-on-earth-isnt-t...

"Many seemingly different species actually live very similar lives. This convergence suggests that it may someday be possible to predict how many species live in a particular habitat, and even to identify the holes left by missing species.

"For more than half a century, ecologists have tended to describe ecological roles, or “niches”, as though they were properties of individual species. For example, chameleons are camouflaged, tree-dwelling lizards that ambush insects, while horned lizards are ground-dwelling desert creatures that eat ants and bear protective spines. The diversity can seem overwhelming.

"But Eric Pianka, an evolutionary ecologist at the University of Texas in Austin, has long wondered whether there might only be a certain, limited set of niches.

***

"Over and over, they saw pairs of unrelated lizards converge on similar niches. Out of the 134 species, 100 belonged to a convergent pair, far more than could have happened by chance.
For example, African chameleons have ecological equivalents in the Americas called bush anoles, and Australia’s thorny devil fills almost precisely the same niche as North America’s horned lizards.

"If lizards could evolve into an unlimited number of niches, this convergence would be unlikely. Instead, their result suggests that lizards are constrained to live particular lifestyles. For instance, there are no marine lizards or lizards that behave like elephants. “There’s only a certain number of ways to be a lizard,” says Pianka.

“'This is beautiful,” says evolutionary biologist George McGhee at Rutgers University in New Jersey. “It’s astonishing the number of species that have converged into ecological roles.”
Ecologists could apply the same approach to other groups, like birds or rodents. However, each group is likely to have its own unique set of niche features – for example, many birds make long migrations, and some rodents hibernate – which would complicate the analysis, says Pianka.

"The limited number of niches implies that ecologists may someday be able to construct a “table of niches”, somewhat analogous to chemistry’s periodic table of elements. “If we constructed this table, and we thought it was fairly complete, then we could go into places and look at the structure of the habitat, the temperatures and so on, and say ‘this place ought to be able to support 10 species of lizards’,” says Vitt. Ecologists could then predict far more about the natural world than they can today.

"Moreover, such a table would highlight “empty” niches where species ought to occur but do not. These gaps could point to niches that were once filled by a species that has died out, but so recently that evolution has not yet refilled the niche, says Vitt.

"However, the findings do not necessarily mean that extinct species can be easily replaced by their ecological equivalents, says Vitt. Such “plug and play” replacements have been attempted on Indian Ocean islands, where giant tortoises wiped out by human activity have been substituted by tortoises from other islands. The problem is, even if the new species fills the same niche, it may respond differently to competitors, predators and prey – leading to unpredictable changes in the ecosystem."

Comment: Long ago I noted that basic designs were set up at the start of multicellular life. Our skeletons compare easily to lizards. All lizards are similar and adapt to different environments. Viewed this way evolution doesn't look quite so bushy. God set up a simple path to follow in the beginning.

Evolution took a long time; catagorizing econiches

by dhw, Tuesday, October 10, 2017, 14:15 (2601 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID’s comment: Long ago I noted that basic designs were set up at the start of multicellular life. Our skeletons compare easily to lizards. All lizards are similar and adapt to different environments. Viewed this way evolution doesn't look quite so bushy. God set up a simple path to follow in the beginning.

Frankly, I don’t find it surprising that particular organisms are suited to particular environments. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t survive. I do find it surprising that the billions of organisms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct finding their own niches should somehow be regarded as providing evidence that “God set up a simple path to follow in the beginning”. It looks to me as though organisms found their own paths as and when they emerged from earlier forms of life into ever changing environments, thereby creating an ever changing bush.

Evolution took a long time; catagorizing econiches

by David Turell @, Tuesday, October 10, 2017, 14:59 (2601 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID’s comment: Long ago I noted that basic designs were set up at the start of multicellular life. Our skeletons compare easily to lizards. All lizards are similar and adapt to different environments. Viewed this way evolution doesn't look quite so bushy. God set up a simple path to follow in the beginning.

dhw: Frankly, I don’t find it surprising that particular organisms are suited to particular environments. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t survive. I do find it surprising that the billions of organisms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct finding their own niches should somehow be regarded as providing evidence that “God set up a simple path to follow in the beginning”. It looks to me as though organisms found their own paths as and when they emerged from earlier forms of life into ever changing environments, thereby creating an ever changing bush.

My point is pattern planning to make the process of evolution simpler. Your point is correct after the patterns are set up..

Evolution took a long time; catagorizing econiches

by dhw, Wednesday, October 11, 2017, 13:50 (2600 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID’s comment: Long ago I noted that basic designs were set up at the start of multicellular life. Our skeletons compare easily to lizards. All lizards are similar and adapt to different environments. Viewed this way evolution doesn't look quite so bushy. God set up a simple path to follow in the beginning.

dhw: Frankly, I don’t find it surprising that particular organisms are suited to particular environments. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t survive. I do find it surprising that the billions of organisms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct finding their own niches should somehow be regarded as providing evidence that “God set up a simple path to follow in the beginning”. It looks to me as though organisms found their own paths as and when they emerged from earlier forms of life into ever changing environments, thereby creating an ever changing bush.

DAVID: My point is pattern planning to make the process of evolution simpler. Your point is correct after the patterns are set up.

I know you think your God planned everything in advance. My point is that organisms would have worked out their own patterns and passed them on. I don’t know why that should be seen as less simple than your God working all the patterns out 3.8 billion years ago and getting the first cells to pass them on and on and on until the new environments and organisms appeared.

Evolution took a long time; catagorizing econiches

by David Turell @, Wednesday, October 11, 2017, 15:11 (2600 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID’s comment: Long ago I noted that basic designs were set up at the start of multicellular life. Our skeletons compare easily to lizards. All lizards are similar and adapt to different environments. Viewed this way evolution doesn't look quite so bushy. God set up a simple path to follow in the beginning.

dhw: Frankly, I don’t find it surprising that particular organisms are suited to particular environments. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t survive. I do find it surprising that the billions of organisms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct finding their own niches should somehow be regarded as providing evidence that “God set up a simple path to follow in the beginning”. It looks to me as though organisms found their own paths as and when they emerged from earlier forms of life into ever changing environments, thereby creating an ever changing bush.

DAVID: My point is pattern planning to make the process of evolution simpler. Your point is correct after the patterns are set up.

dhw: I know you think your God planned everything in advance. My point is that organisms would have worked out their own patterns and passed them on. I don’t know why that should be seen as less simple than your God working all the patterns out 3.8 billion years ago and getting the first cells to pass them on and on and on until the new environments and organisms appeared.

And my point is all organisms with skeletons have the same pattern to start with. All adaptations are variations on the same theme. Simplifies the job of evolution. Still doesn't explain speciation, but your theoretical organisms easily know how to modify?

Evolution took a long time; catagorizing econiches

by dhw, Thursday, October 12, 2017, 14:08 (2599 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: My point is pattern planning to make the process of evolution simpler. Your point is correct after the patterns are set up.

dhw: I know you think your God planned everything in advance. My point is that organisms would have worked out their own patterns and passed them on. I don’t know why that should be seen as less simple than your God working all the patterns out 3.8 billion years ago and getting the first cells to pass them on and on and on until the new environments and organisms appeared.

DAVID: And my point is all organisms with skeletons have the same pattern to start with.

Agreed. Clear evidence of common descent. That’s all.

DAVID: All adaptations are variations on the same theme. Simplifies the job of evolution. Still doesn't explain speciation, but your theoretical organisms easily know how to modify?

All agreed, except that I don’t understand why you insert “easily”. My hypothesis is that the cell communities know how to modify, and it may be that your God gave them that knowledge and the means to implement it (“cellular intelligence”). Personally, I would see that as simpler than your God preprogramming every change to be passed on through 3.8 billion years or having to make personal interventions, e.g. when the dear old weaverbird fails to tie his knots (or was his nest also preprogrammed?)

Evolution took a long time; catagorizing econiches

by David Turell @, Thursday, October 12, 2017, 14:45 (2599 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: My point is pattern planning to make the process of evolution simpler. Your point is correct after the patterns are set up.

dhw: I know you think your God planned everything in advance. My point is that organisms would have worked out their own patterns and passed them on. I don’t know why that should be seen as less simple than your God working all the patterns out 3.8 billion years ago and getting the first cells to pass them on and on and on until the new environments and organisms appeared.

DAVID: And my point is all organisms with skeletons have the same pattern to start with.

Agreed. Clear evidence of common descent. That’s all.

DAVID: All adaptations are variations on the same theme. Simplifies the job of evolution. Still doesn't explain speciation, but your theoretical organisms easily know how to modify?

dhw: All agreed, except that I don’t understand why you insert “easily”. My hypothesis is that the cell communities know how to modify, and it may be that your God gave them that knowledge and the means to implement it (“cellular intelligence”). Personally, I would see that as simpler than your God preprogramming every change to be passed on through 3.8 billion years or having to make personal interventions, e.g. when the dear old weaverbird fails to tie his knots (or was his nest also preprogrammed?)

I view epigenetic adaptations as 'easy' modifications of existing patterns, and I assume that following a pervious pattern makes speciation easier to accomplish.

Evolution took a long time; catagorizing econiches

by dhw, Friday, October 13, 2017, 11:07 (2598 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: And my point is all organisms with skeletons have the same pattern to start with.

dhw: Agreed. Clear evidence of common descent. That’s all.

DAVID: All adaptations are variations on the same theme. Simplifies the job of evolution. Still doesn't explain speciation, but your theoretical organisms easily know how to modify?

dhw: All agreed, except that I don’t understand why you insert “easily”. My hypothesis is that the cell communities know how to modify, and it may be that your God gave them that knowledge and the means to implement it (“cellular intelligence”). Personally, I would see that as simpler than your God preprogramming every change to be passed on through 3.8 billion years or having to make personal interventions, e.g. when the dear old weaverbird fails to tie his knots (or was his nest also preprogrammed?)

DAVID: I view epigenetic adaptations as 'easy' modifications of existing patterns, and I assume that following a pervious pattern makes speciation easier to accomplish.

That’s fine with me, then. Less inventiveness required from the intelligent cell communities as they build on patterns created by their predecessors. Fits in perfectly with my hypothesis.

Evolution took a long time

by BBella @, Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 00:06 (2861 days ago) @ David Turell


dhw; I am well aware of your objections even to the theistic version of my inventive mechanism hypothesis, which I accept, but as an explanation of evolution I find it infinitely more logical than a mechanism that has to pass on billions of divine computer programmes for all solutions, innovations and natural wonders, or your God personally teaching bacteria to solve problems and weaverbirds to build nests, all for the sake of producing humans. And I’m afraid that rejection on the grounds that there is no evidence for the existence of the mechanism applies just as much to your hypothesis as to mine. Double standards.


Your theistic inventive mechanism constitutes a judgement of God's software writing ability: You want organisms to use His IM sequentially to conduct evolution and I think He could have written the software for all of it from the very beginning. Not double standards but two differing judgments of God's ability.

Why would God have to use an inventive mechanism or write the software for all life, when he could just BE the IM (I AM) and/or BE the software?

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Tuesday, January 24, 2017, 00:48 (2861 days ago) @ BBella


dhw; I am well aware of your objections even to the theistic version of my inventive mechanism hypothesis, which I accept, but as an explanation of evolution I find it infinitely more logical than a mechanism that has to pass on billions of divine computer programmes for all solutions, innovations and natural wonders, or your God personally teaching bacteria to solve problems and weaverbirds to build nests, all for the sake of producing humans. And I’m afraid that rejection on the grounds that there is no evidence for the existence of the mechanism applies just as much to your hypothesis as to mine. Double standards.


David: Your theistic inventive mechanism constitutes a judgement of God's software writing ability: You want organisms to use His IM sequentially to conduct evolution and I think He could have written the software for all of it from the very beginning. Not double standards but two differing judgments of God's ability.


BBella: Why would God have to use an inventive mechanism or write the software for all life, when he could just BE the IM (I AM) and/or BE the software?

That is part of my dilemma: God could have written all the software in the genome in the beginning of life or He could ride herd and originate every step forward. Either way He is in total control, of which fact I am convinced.

Evolution took a long time

by BBella @, Saturday, January 07, 2017, 20:37 (2877 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: That suits me fine. How does the organism FREELY try a change if it does not have an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism?


But it may well have a mechanism with God dabbling as necessary.

But if God consciously (or better said, God conscious) dwells within all that IS, God can just as easily (if not more easily) dabble from within all that IS. So that would mean God that dwells outside all that IS (if there is such), would not have to watch over all that IS (every thing) and say to himself..."oh, not doing as I choose, so I must dabble here or there". That really makes no sense. At the quantum level, nothing is automatic and nothing is an automaton. So it makes no sense to say that God dabbles. All that IS, is what it IS, because at a quantum level, all is connected and moving towards a dual purpose: it's own purpose as well as the purpose of the whole.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 08, 2017, 01:59 (2877 days ago) @ BBella

dhw: That suits me fine. How does the organism FREELY try a change if it does not have an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism?


David: But it may well have a mechanism with God dabbling as necessary.


BBella: But if God consciously (or better said, God conscious) dwells within all that IS, God can just as easily (if not more easily) dabble from within all that IS. So that would mean God that dwells outside all that IS (if there is such), would not have to watch over all that IS (every thing) and say to himself..."oh, not doing as I choose, so I must dabble here or there". That really makes no sense. At the quantum level, nothing is automatic and nothing is an automaton. So it makes no sense to say that God dabbles. All that IS, is what it IS, because at a quantum level, all is connected and moving towards a dual purpose: it's own purpose as well as the purpose of the whole.

It all depends on whether God is in or out of everything. I believe He is both within and without the universe, and He causes speciation. The issue from the dhw standpoint is whether organisms have enough intelligence to make their own changes, and I don't think so. Can they adapt, yes, in minor ways. What I call dabbling is God stepping in to create species. As for quantum mechanics, I think that is God's way of creating the universe. The entire universe s totally connected and follows His purpose. And the universe is conscious, which I think is an expression of God's consciousness. For me human consciousness is an extension of universal God consciousness.

Evolution took a long time

by BBella @, Sunday, January 08, 2017, 03:41 (2877 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: That suits me fine. How does the organism FREELY try a change if it does not have an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism?


David: But it may well have a mechanism with God dabbling as necessary.


BBella: But if God consciously (or better said, God conscious) dwells within all that IS, God can just as easily (if not more easily) dabble from within all that IS. So that would mean God that dwells outside all that IS (if there is such), would not have to watch over all that IS (every thing) and say to himself..."oh, not doing as I choose, so I must dabble here or there". That really makes no sense. At the quantum level, nothing is automatic and nothing is an automaton. So it makes no sense to say that God dabbles. All that IS, is what it IS, because at a quantum level, all is connected and moving towards a dual purpose: it's own purpose as well as the purpose of the whole.


It all depends on whether God is in or out of everything. I believe He is both within and without the universe, and He causes speciation. The issue from the dhw standpoint is whether organisms have enough intelligence to make their own changes, and I don't think so.

How is God then in "every thing" if the "thing" cannot make it's own changes?

Can they adapt, yes, in minor ways. What I call dabbling is God stepping in

Why does God have to "step in" when God is already in every thing?

to create species. As for quantum mechanics, I think that is God's way of creating the universe. The entire universe s totally connected and follows His purpose. And the universe is conscious, which I think is an expression of God's consciousness. For me human consciousness is an extension of universal God consciousness.

So, what you are saying above is that God generated/created every thing thru quantum mechanics (or God conscious) and is connected to the entire universe and ALL follows His will and/or purpose. That being so, why would God ever have to dabble when ALL is already following God's conscious will/purpose? Is God "dabbling" just your way of saying something suddenly changed for no earthly known reason so it had to be God's will/purpose that it changed?

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Sunday, January 08, 2017, 14:26 (2876 days ago) @ BBella

dhw: That suits me fine. How does the organism FREELY try a change if it does not have an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism?

DAVID: But it may well have a mechanism with God dabbling as necessary.

BBELLA: But if God consciously (or better said, God conscious) dwells within all that IS, God can just as easily (if not more easily) dabble from within all that IS. So that would mean God that dwells outside all that IS (if there is such), would not have to watch over all that IS (every thing) and say to himself..."oh, not doing as I choose, so I must dabble here or there". That really makes no sense. At the quantum level, nothing is automatic and nothing is an automaton. So it makes no sense to say that God dabbles. All that IS, is what it IS, because at a quantum level, all is connected and moving towards a dual purpose: it's own purpose as well as the purpose of the whole.

I’m not convinced that the whole has a purpose, but this is a fascinating approach to our subject. If God is inside ALL THAT IS, he should be able to direct organisms any way he pleases. If things go wrong and require a dabble, it CAN only be because organisms can act independently, and how do they manage that if he's inside them? Curiouser and curiouser!

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Tuesday, February 21, 2017, 18:46 (2832 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: That suits me fine. How does the organism FREELY try a change if it does not have an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism?

DAVID: But it may well have a mechanism with God dabbling as necessary.

BBELLA: But if God consciously (or better said, God conscious) dwells within all that IS, God can just as easily (if not more easily) dabble from within all that IS. So that would mean God that dwells outside all that IS (if there is such), would not have to watch over all that IS (every thing) and say to himself..."oh, not doing as I choose, so I must dabble here or there". That really makes no sense. At the quantum level, nothing is automatic and nothing is an automaton. So it makes no sense to say that God dabbles. All that IS, is what it IS, because at a quantum level, all is connected and moving towards a dual purpose: it's own purpose as well as the purpose of the whole.

dhw: I’m not convinced that the whole has a purpose, but this is a fascinating approach to our subject. If God is inside ALL THAT IS, he should be able to direct organisms any way he pleases. If things go wrong and require a dabble, it CAN only be because organisms can act independently, and how do they manage that if he's inside them? Curiouser and curiouser!

If God guides evolution as His process to produce humans, He has to dabble. Evidence of His works is in the new design of new species, which is obvious in all of evolution that jumps huge gaps in form and function. Only a planning mind can do it.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Wednesday, February 22, 2017, 13:39 (2831 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: That suits me fine. How does the organism FREELY try a change if it does not have an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism?

DAVID: But it may well have a mechanism with God dabbling as necessary.

BBELLA: But if God consciously (or better said, God conscious) dwells within all that IS, God can just as easily (if not more easily) dabble from within all that IS. So that would mean God that dwells outside all that IS (if there is such), would not have to watch over all that IS (every thing) and say to himself..."oh, not doing as I choose, so I must dabble here or there". That really makes no sense. At the quantum level, nothing is automatic and nothing is an automaton. So it makes no sense to say that God dabbles. All that IS, is what it IS, because at a quantum level, all is connected and moving towards a dual purpose: it's own purpose as well as the purpose of the whole.

dhw: I’m not convinced that the whole has a purpose, but this is a fascinating approach to our subject. If God is inside ALL THAT IS, he should be able to direct organisms any way he pleases. If things go wrong and require a dabble, it CAN only be because organisms can act independently, and how do they manage that if he's inside them? Curiouser and curiouser!

DAVID: If God guides evolution as His process to produce humans, He has to dabble. Evidence of His works is in the new design of new species, which is obvious in all of evolution that jumps huge gaps in form and function. Only a planning mind can do it

I have tried to follow through on the claim that God is “within” all things. If so, then how can things go wrong and require a “dabble”? That would mean he has to rectify his own mistakes. Corrective dabbling would only be necessary if organisms were able to do their own thing independently of God: and that means an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism – a possibility which you have accepted but reject whenever it comes down to concrete examples such as carnivorous plants and the frog’s tongue, not to mention the weaverbird’s nest.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Wednesday, February 22, 2017, 23:02 (2831 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: If God guides evolution as His process to produce humans, He has to dabble. Evidence of His works is in the new design of new species, which is obvious in all of evolution that jumps huge gaps in form and function. Only a planning mind can do it

dhw: I have tried to follow through on the claim that God is “within” all things. If so, then how can things go wrong and require a “dabble”? That would mean he has to rectify his own mistakes. Corrective dabbling would only be necessary if organisms were able to do their own thing independently of God: and that means an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism – a possibility which you have accepted but reject whenever it comes down to concrete examples such as carnivorous plants and the frog’s tongue, not to mention the weaverbird’s nest.

I never said that God has to dabble when things are wrong. A dabble is pushing evolution along from where it happens to be. Dabbles are evolutionary progress, nothing else. You love organismal autonomy as if that gets rid of God. If God created life, He gave that ability to them. Fine.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Thursday, February 23, 2017, 11:40 (2830 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: If God guides evolution as His process to produce humans, He has to dabble. Evidence of His works is in the new design of new species, which is obvious in all of evolution that jumps huge gaps in form and function. Only a planning mind can do it
dhw: I have tried to follow through on the claim that God is “within” all things. If so, then how can things go wrong and require a “dabble”? That would mean he has to rectify his own mistakes. Corrective dabbling would only be necessary if organisms were able to do their own thing independently of God: and that means an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism – a possibility which you have accepted but reject whenever it comes down to concrete examples such as carnivorous plants and the frog’s tongue, not to mention the weaverbird’s nest.
DAVID: I never said that God has to dabble when things are wrong. A dabble is pushing evolution along from where it happens to be. Dabbles are evolutionary progress, nothing else. You love organismal autonomy as if that gets rid of God. If God created life, He gave that ability to them. Fine.

I have never said that autonomy gets rid of God. It is my alternative to your own avowedly nonsensical interpretation of the evolutionary process. The problem with your on-and-off acceptance of the autonomous inventive mechanism is that so far you have not accepted one single example of its inventiveness. God always has to dabble, even to camouflage the cuttlefish, build the weaverbird’s nest, guide the monarch, and design frogs’ tongues and carnivorous plants, all so that life can go on until he can dabble with the pre-human brain, which he couldn’t have done more directly because…because…because…he couldn’t have done it more directly.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Thursday, February 23, 2017, 14:59 (2830 days ago) @ dhw

dhw:I have never said that autonomy gets rid of God. It is my alternative to your own avowedly nonsensical interpretation of the evolutionary process. The problem with your on-and-off acceptance of the autonomous inventive mechanism is that so far you have not accepted one single example of its inventiveness. God always has to dabble, even to camouflage the cuttlefish, build the weaverbird’s nest, guide the monarch, and design frogs’ tongues and carnivorous plants, all so that life can go on until he can dabble with the pre-human brain, which he couldn’t have done more directly because…because…because…he couldn’t have done it more directly.

As a non-believer in God, your interpretations miss the mark for those of us who believe. You cannot come to the position that He did it, so you rationally try to explain God without recognizing that He did what He did for his own reasons. We can make guesses, but it doesn't get around the fact that a designer is required.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Friday, February 24, 2017, 13:07 (2829 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw:I have never said that autonomy gets rid of God. It is my alternative to your own avowedly nonsensical interpretation of the evolutionary process. The problem with your on-and-off acceptance of the autonomous inventive mechanism is that so far you have not accepted one single example of its inventiveness. God always has to dabble, even to camouflage the cuttlefish, build the weaverbird’s nest, guide the monarch, and design frogs’ tongues and carnivorous plants, all so that life can go on until he can dabble with the pre-human brain, which he couldn’t have done more directly because…because…because…he couldn’t have done it more directly.

DAVID: As a non-believer in God, your interpretations miss the mark for those of us who believe.

There is no mark to miss. Those of you who believe have all kinds of beliefs, and you have always prided yourself in NOT following the interpretations of the established religions.

DAVID: You cannot come to the position that He did it, so you rationally try to explain God without recognizing that He did what He did for his own reasons.

I have no doubt that if he exists, he did what he did for his own reasons. I merely point out to you that the reason you impose on him (designing every species, lifestyle and natural wonder in order to keep life going till he could dabble with the pre-human brain (or his brain-enlargement programme switched itself on) doesn’t make sense, even to you, so maybe he had a different motive.

DAVID: We can make guesses, but it doesn't get around the fact that a designer is required.

As always, you try to divert attention from the non-sense of your interpretation of evolution by pretending that any other interpretation somehow denies God. It doesn’t.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Friday, February 24, 2017, 22:31 (2829 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: You cannot come to the position that He did it, so you rationally try to explain God without recognizing that He did what He did for his own reasons.

dhw: I have no doubt that if he exists, he did what he did for his own reasons. I merely point out to you that the reason you impose on him (designing every species, lifestyle and natural wonder in order to keep life going till he could dabble with the pre-human brain (or his brain-enlargement programme switched itself on) doesn’t make sense, even to you, so maybe he had a different motive.

But what you have written makes perfect sense to me. He wanted humans, and He conducted the evolution of the bush of life to get there.


DAVID: We can make guesses, but it doesn't get around the fact that a designer is required.

dhw: As always, you try to divert attention from the non-sense of your interpretation of evolution by pretending that any other interpretation somehow denies God. It doesn’t.

Isn't a designer required if chance won't work?

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Saturday, February 25, 2017, 11:21 (2828 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I think your disbelief creates a skewed thought pattern as it relates to God and his possible intentions. Of course you have every right to speculate.

Agnosticism is not disbelief (= God does not exist) but non-belief (= I can’t make up my mind whether God exists or not). There is a huge difference. I have offered a theistic interpretation of evolution (that your God designed a mechanism that could and did produce an ever-changing spectacle, though he may have dabbled occasionally, perhaps to produce humans), which you admit fits in perfectly with evolutionary history. And you even believe he watches the ever changing spectacle with interest. If you can’t understand why he chose personally to design millions of life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders in order to keep life going until he could dabble with pre-human brains, or pre-humans could switch on their brain-enlargement programme, then maybe it is your own thought pattern that is “skewed”.

DAVID: I keep defending balance of nature to supply food. I've simply said God guides evolution. He may have made living organisms very inventive in the forms they evolve or He may have guided them Himself. We've agreed on these possibilities when you play theist.

Then let me try once more to pin you down: do you or do you not think it is possible that frogs and carnivorous plants designed their own methods of catching prey, or do you still insist that only your God could have preprogrammed or dabbled them?

DAVID: You cannot come to the position that He did it, so you rationally try to explain God without recognizing that He did what He did for his own reasons.
dhw: I have no doubt that if he exists, he did what he did for his own reasons. I merely point out to you that the reason you impose on him doesn’t make sense even to you, so maybe he had a different motive.
DAVID: But what you have written makes perfect sense to me. He wanted humans, and He conducted the evolution of the bush of life to get there.

As above. You do not understand why he “conducted the evolution of the bush of life” (= designed millions of life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders) if all he wanted was humans, and yet it makes perfect sense to you!

DAVID: Isn't a designer required if chance won't work?

Yes. But that does not mean the designer designed every life form in order to get to humans.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Saturday, February 25, 2017, 14:35 (2828 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I think your disbelief creates a skewed thought pattern as it relates to God and his possible intentions. Of course you have every right to speculate.

dhw: Agnosticism is not disbelief (= God does not exist) but non-belief (= I can’t make up my mind whether God exists or not). There is a huge difference. ....If you can’t understand why he chose personally to design millions of life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders in order to keep life going until he could dabble with pre-human brains, or pre-humans could switch on their brain-enlargement programme, then maybe it is your own thought pattern that is “skewed”.

Still on a picket fence must tilt your thinking. My contention that God guided evolution and chose it as a mechanism to create humans is a logical extension of my conclusion that humans were His goal.


dhw: Then let me try once more to pin you down: do you or do you not think it is possible that frogs and carnivorous plants designed their own methods of catching prey, or do you still insist that only your God could have preprogrammed or dabbled them?

God did it.


DAVID: Isn't a designer required if chance won't work?

dhw: Yes. But that does not mean the designer designed every life form in order to get to humans.

Of course what a designer does is design.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Sunday, February 26, 2017, 09:24 (2827 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I think your disbelief creates a skewed thought pattern as it relates to God and his possible intentions. Of course you have every right to speculate.
dhw: Agnosticism is not disbelief (= God does not exist) but non-belief (= I can’t make up my mind whether God exists or not). There is a huge difference. ....If you can’t understand why he chose personally to design millions of life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders in order to keep life going until he could dabble with pre-human brains, or pre-humans could switch on their brain-enlargement programme, then maybe it is your own thought pattern that is “skewed”.
DAVID: Still on a picket fence must tilt your thinking. My contention that God guided evolution and chose it as a mechanism to create humans is a logical extension of my conclusion that humans were His goal.

My thinking is what stops me from tilting, which is why I am on the picket fence. This means that I am in the wrong, because either God exists or he doesn’t. However, in terms of reading a possible God’s intentions, all we can do is try to fit our theories to what we know of his creations. Since your own evolutionary theory, “tilted” by your conclusion, makes no sense to you, whereas you have admitted that mine fits in perfectly with the history of life as we know it (and even allows for a special dabble in the case of humans), I would suggest that my thought pattern is not half as skewed as yours!

dhw: Then let me try once more to pin you down: do you or do you not think it is possible that frogs and carnivorous plants designed their own methods of catching prey, or do you still insist that only your God could have preprogrammed or dabbled them?
DAVID: God did it.

You have also opted for God and against autonomous intelligence on the bee thread:
dhw: Bee behaviour: preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago, personally dabbled by your God, or the consequence of autonomous intelligence?
DAVID: Bees are an integral part of the balance of nature. They are raised as pollinators to help in agriculture, and because of bee hive decline are in short supply right now. God may well have paid special attention to them. The complexity of their 'dances' signaling information suggests that. God obviously played a role.

I’m not questioning the importance of bees to the current balance of nature. You have now conceded on several occasions that your God may have given organisms an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism, but every time I try to pin you down (the latest being frogs’ tongues, carnivorous plants and bees), you have opted for divine preprogramming or dabbling. Would you please put me out of my suspense and give me a concrete example of original, inventive design (not minor adaptations) which you think might have been produced by the autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism you have now agreed is possible.

DAVID: Isn't a designer required if chance won't work?
dhw: Yes. But that does not mean the designer designed every life form in order to get to humans.
DAVID: Of course what a designer does is design.

A designer can design a mechanism that could do its own designing. If your divine designer exists, this is clearly what he has done in the case of humans, unless you think he preprogrammed or dabbled every human invention. I am suggesting that he has given the same mechanism – though far more limited in scope – to other organisms.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Sunday, February 26, 2017, 20:03 (2827 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: My thinking is what stops me from tilting, which is why I am on the picket fence. This means that I am in the wrong, because either God exists or he doesn’t. However, in terms of reading a possible God’s intentions, all we can do is try to fit our theories to what we know of his creations. Since your own evolutionary theory, “tilted” by your conclusion, makes no sense to you,

My theories about evolution make perfect sense to me. I don't know why you keep repeating the 'no sense' mantra like a campaign slogan. God controlled evolution as his chosen method of producing humans. What I don't know is how much pre-programming or dabbling occurred.

dhw: Whereas you have admitted that mine fits in perfectly with the history of life as we know it (and even allows for a special dabble in the case of humans), I would suggest that my thought pattern is not half as skewed as yours!

Your suppositions fit the history, but doesn't mean they are correct. I think evolution is guided and yours favors chance progression.

dhw: I’m not questioning the importance of bees to the current balance of nature. You have now conceded on several occasions that your God may have given organisms an autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism, but every time I try to pin you down (the latest being frogs’ tongues, carnivorous plants and bees), you have opted for divine preprogramming or dabbling. Would you please put me out of my suspense and give me a concrete example of original, inventive design (not minor adaptations) which you think might have been produced by the autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism you have now agreed is possible.

Frankly, I don't know of any. We see epigenetic adaptations, many described on this site. All are relatively minor compared to speciation.


DAVID: Isn't a designer required if chance won't work?
dhw: Yes. But that does not mean the designer designed every life form in order to get to humans.
DAVID: Of course what a designer does is design.

dhw: A designer can design a mechanism that could do its own designing. If your divine designer exists, this is clearly what he has done in the case of humans, unless you think he preprogrammed or dabbled every human invention. I am suggesting that he has given the same mechanism – though far more limited in scope – to other organisms.

More limited scope as in epigenetic adaptations to environmental stresses. Fine.

Evolution took a long time: newly found epigenetics

by David Turell @, Sunday, February 26, 2017, 20:27 (2827 days ago) @ David Turell

Research keeps unearthing how complex is the editing process that controls epigenetic modifications of gene function:

http://www.nature.com/news/an-epigenetics-gold-rush-new-controls-for-gene-expression-1....

"In 2012, two teams of researchers independently published the first maps of where m6A appears6, . The studies revealed more than 12,000 methylated sites on mRNAs originating from about 7,000 genes. “After years in the dark, we were instantly facing a wide vista,” wrote Dan Dominissini, an author of one of the studies, in an essay in Science.

"The maps showed that the distribution of m6A is not random. Its location suggested that the mark might have a role in alternative splicing of RNA transcripts, a mechanism that allows cells to produce multiple versions of a protein from a single gene.

***

"Over the past few years, researchers have identified some of the machinery involved in regulating these marks. Each requires a writer to place it, an eraser to remove it and a reader to interpret it. As the identities of these proteins emerged, scientists have come to understand that m6A affects not only RNA splicing, but also translation and RNA stability.

"One m6A reader, for example, makes mRNA degrade faster by shuttling it to decay sites in the cell. Another m6A reader promotes protein production by shepherding methylated RNA to the ribosome.

"Whether m6A directs a cell to produce a protein or destroy a transcript depends on the location of the mark and on the reader that binds to it. But understanding how this selection works has been a major challenge, says Gideon Rechavi, a geneticist at Tel Aviv University in Israel who was involved in the mapping of m6A.

"What is clear is that m6A has fundamental roles in cell differentiation. Cells that lack the mark get stuck in a stem- or progenitor-like state. That can be lethal: when He and his colleagues disabled the m6A writer in mice, many embryos died in utero.

"He has a possible explanation for the role of m6A. Each time a cell changes from one state to another — such as during differentiation — the mRNAs in it must change too. This change in mRNA content, which He calls a transcriptome switch, requires precision and careful timing. He thinks that the methyl marks might be a way for cells to synchronize the activity of thousands of transcripts.

***

"Xiao is still unravelling the function of 6mA. He says that it seems to be crucial at certain developmental stages, acting like a molecular switch — barely present one moment, then there's a surge, and then it disappears.

***

"There are still big questions to untangle. Mamta Tahiliani, a geneticist at New York University School of Medicine in New York City calls the 6mA work “incredibly exciting”, but points out that researchers haven't yet shown that the mark passes from one generation of cells to its progeny, a hallmark of epigenetic modifications.

"As some researchers dive deep to try to understand the function of m6A and 6mA, others are looking for new modifications. Last year, He, Rechavi and their colleagues reported. the discovery of another methyl mark on adenine in RNA called N1-methyladenosine (m1A). This mark also seems to promote translation, although the underlying mechanism is different from that of 6mA. He says it might also have a role in synchronizing transcripts for the transcriptome switch.

"Then, in January, Jaffrey and his colleagues reported on yet another kind of modification that occurs near the caps of mRNAs. The researchers found that mRNAs with this mark — called m6Am — are more stable because their caps are harder to remove. “It's exciting to people that the landscape of potentially regulated messenger RNA modifications that might influence gene expression could be an order of magnitude more complex than we thought before,” Gilbert says.

"Along with these new discoveries also come scientific squabbles. Jaffrey's work15 suggests that FTO, which He identified as an m6A eraser, actually targets m6Am. And in October, He's group reported16 that the enzyme Xiao flagged as a 6mA eraser on DNA actually does a better job of stripping m1A off a particular type of RNA. But such ambiguities are to be expected in a field that's experiencing a scientific gold rush."

Comment: Much of this research is involved in embryologic mechanisms, but it must also relate to simple adaptations. It doesn't look like a full blown IM creating major changes in species or evolving into new species. I've pared this giant article of most of the back history. It is worth reading.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Monday, February 27, 2017, 12:23 (2826 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Since your own evolutionary theory, “tilted” by your conclusion, makes no sense to you...
DAVID: My theories about evolution make perfect sense to me. I don't know why you keep repeating the 'no sense' mantra like a campaign slogan. God controlled evolution as his chosen method of producing humans. What I don't know is how much pre-programming or dabbling occurred.

One of our problems is that I follow up your various statements (e.g God not having a smidgen of evil in him, or not caring what happens to individuals) and a few days later you forget that you made them. Now it is the ‘no sense’ mantra. This has nothing to do with the choice between preprogramming and dabbling. Here once more is the exchange between us on 17 February at 18.54 under “particles and connections”:
dhw: A complete plan for what? The problem with your hypothesis is the nature of your plan: you insist that your God, who is always in tight control, geared everything right from the beginning to the production of humans, which leads you to have him designing nests and flight paths and parasites and frogs' tongues and fishy camouflage etc. in order to keep life going before he can dabble with the brains of humans - and his ability to dabble makes even you wonder why he couldn't have produced us more directly. It just doesn't make sense.
DAVID: Guess what? It doesn't make sense to me either, but He did not directly create humans. He used an evolutionary process of living organisms, after using an evolutionary process to create the universe and a very special Earth. Go with the evidence that this was His plan from the beginning. Why not?

The “it” that doesn’t make sense is the hypothesis I have summarized (plus the pre-programming option). Ten days later it makes sense after all. (Your defence of the non-sense is that that is how God did it.)

dhw: Whereas you have admitted that mine fits in perfectly with the history of life as we know it (and even allows for a special dabble in the case of humans), I would suggest that my thought pattern is not half as skewed as yours!
DAVID: Your suppositions fit the history, but doesn't mean they are correct. I think evolution is guided and yours favors chance progression.

“Chance” is misleading. If organisms deliberately design innovations, chance is only involved through changes in the environmental conditions that enable them to do so. (Another example of your self-contradiction: sometimes God controls the environment and sometimes he doesn’t. See the post on asteroids.) As regards the emergence of humans, my theistic version allows for your God to dabble, or even to experiment. What it does not allow for is the hypothesis summarized above.

dhw: Would you please put me out of my suspense and give me a concrete example of original, inventive design (not minor adaptations) which you think might have been produced by the autonomous, intelligent, inventive mechanism you have now agreed is possible.
DAVID: Frankly, I don't know of any. We see epigenetic adaptations, many described on this site. All are relatively minor compared to speciation.

Nobody “knows” of any, because nobody “knows” how speciation came about. That is why we can only theorize.

dhw: I am suggesting that he has given the same mechanism – though far more limited in scope – to other organisms.
DAVID: More limited scope as in epigenetic adaptations to environmental stresses. Fine.

An interesting variation on your concession a month ago:
27 January 00.53 DAVID: Of course it is possible God is in everything, or that He could invent an inventive mechanism itself as His double ganger.
27 January at 15.29 dhw: But I’m pleased to see that although autonomous intelligent inventive mechanisms are “not in your considerations, ever!” unless we call them “God”, you agree that they are possible.
DAVID: Autonomous IM's with follow up dabbles, as you've agreed, are fine.

One day the possibility of an autonomous inventive mechanism is fine (I agreed that your God could dabble if he wanted to, but autonomy does not require dabbles!) and a month later you can’t see any instance in which an autonomous inventive mechanism might be possible.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Monday, February 27, 2017, 18:50 (2826 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Since your own evolutionary theory, “tilted” by your conclusion, makes no sense to you...
DAVID: My theories about evolution make perfect sense to me. I don't know why you keep repeating the 'no sense' mantra like a campaign slogan. God controlled evolution as his chosen method of producing humans. What I don't know is how much pre-programming or dabbling occurred.

dhw: One of our problems is that I follow up your various statements (e.g God not having a smidgen of evil in him, or not caring what happens to individuals) and a few days later you forget that you made them. Now it is the ‘no sense’ mantra. This has nothing to do with the choice between preprogramming and dabbling.

I'm delighted you can go back and find our discussions. The problem between us is that I have general precepts which I have repeated over and over: God wanted humans. God uses evolution of the universe, Earth, and of life. He is in control except those things He either can't control or won't control, i.e., asteroids.

He either pre-planned or dabbled, probably both. He may have given organisms some freedom to try out adaptations (yes!) or phenotypic changes toward new species (an IM with His adjustment dabbles working together....possible). This is the area of your questioning, asking for some degree of exactitude, where I wander around, because I see no evidence in science to guide me. We just don't know about speciation, and Darwin is completely wrong.


dhw: The “it” that doesn’t make sense is the hypothesis I have summarized (plus the pre-programming option). Ten days later it makes sense after all. (Your defence of the non-sense is that that is how God did it.)

Exactly. God does 'it' somehow!


DAVID: Your suppositions fit the history, but doesn't mean they are correct. I think evolution is guided and yours favors chance progression.

dhw: “Chance” is misleading. If organisms deliberately design innovations, chance is only involved through changes in the environmental conditions that enable them to do so. As regards the emergence of humans, my theistic version allows for your God to dabble, or even to experiment. What it does not allow for is the hypothesis summarized above.

My God thesis has God definitely dabbling. We are still the same. chance vs. control.

DAVID: We see epigenetic adaptations, many described on this site. All are relatively minor compared to speciation.


Nobody “knows” of any, because nobody “knows” how speciation came about. That is why we can only theorize.

dhw: I am suggesting that he has given the same mechanism – though far more limited in scope – to other organisms.

DAVID: More limited scope as in epigenetic adaptations to environmental stresses. Fine.

DAVID: Autonomous IM's with follow up dabbles, as you've agreed, are fine.

dhw: One day the possibility of an autonomous inventive mechanism is fine (I agreed that your God could dabble if he wanted to, but autonomy does not require dabbles!) and a month later you can’t see any instance in which an autonomous inventive mechanism might be possible.

Same result: IMs are possible with God controlling outcomes. I've not changed. This area of theorizing has left us in the same positions.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Tuesday, February 28, 2017, 13:21 (2825 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Since your own evolutionary theory, “tilted” by your conclusion, makes no sense to you...
DAVID: My theories about evolution make perfect sense to me. I don't know why you keep repeating the 'no sense' mantra like a campaign slogan. God controlled evolution as his chosen method of producing humans. What I don't know is how much pre-programming or dabbling occurred.
dhw: One of our problems is that I follow up your various statements (e.g God not having a smidgen of evil in him, or not caring what happens to individuals) and a few days later you forget that you made them. Now it is the ‘no sense’ mantra. This has nothing to do with the choice between preprogramming and dabbling.
DAVID: I'm delighted you can go back and find our discussions. The problem between us is that I have general precepts which I have repeated over and over: God wanted humans. God uses evolution of the universe, Earth, and of life. He is in control except those things He either can't control or won't control, i.e., asteroids.

The problem between us is that you have a very precise precept: God, who is always in tight control (except when he isn't), wanted humans and personally designed every life form, lifestyle and natural wonder because they were all necessary (until they became unnecessary, apart from those that are still necessary) in order to keep life going until he was able to dabble with pre-humans or until they could switch on his 3.8-billion-year programme for brain enlargement which had been passed on to them by the very first living cells. Since that very precise precept doesn’t make sense to you, I repeat over and over that maybe it’s wrong. Maybe he gave organisms the means to go their own way, and maybe humans were the result of a dabble or the result of the evolving intelligence that your God had set in motion. Maybe. Even to you that makes sense in the light of evolutionary history, but still you insist that your non-sensical hypothesis must be true because that is what you believe. (On the subject of asteroids, see the asteroid thread.)

DAVID: He either pre-planned or dabbled, probably both. He may have given organisms some freedom to try out adaptations (yes!) or phenotypic changes toward new species (an IM with His adjustment dabbles working together....possible). This is the area of your questioning, asking for some degree of exactitude, where I wander around, because I see no evidence in science to guide me. We just don't know about speciation, and Darwin is completely wrong.

Nobody knows about speciation. You wrote: “Autonomous IM's with follow up dabbles, as you've agreed, are fine.” A follow up dabble would only be necessary if something went wrong or if your God wanted to try something new. The hypothesis of an autonomous intelligent inventive mechanism (designed by your God), which you keep agreeing to and then not agreeing to, cannot be autonomous if it can ONLY work with God’s dabbling. You know the meaning of the word “autonomous” as well as I do.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Tuesday, February 28, 2017, 14:28 (2825 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I'm delighted you can go back and find our discussions. The problem between us is that I have general precepts which I have repeated over and over: God wanted humans. God uses evolution of the universe, Earth, and of life. He is in control except those things He either can't control or won't control, i.e., asteroids.

dhw: The problem between us is that you have a very precise precept: God, who is always in tight control (except when he isn't), wanted humans and personally designed every life form, lifestyle and natural wonder because they were all necessary (until they became unnecessary, apart from those that are still necessary) in order to keep life going until he was able to dabble with pre-humans or until they could switch on his 3.8-billion-year programme for brain enlargement which had been passed on to them by the very first living cells. Since that very precise precept doesn’t make sense to you, I repeat over and over that maybe it’s wrong.

It is your version stated above hat makes no sense. My version of what happened makes perfect sense to me. What seems to puzzle you is that I can 't precisely define the limits of God's powers, if any. We cannot know exactly what He can do and what may be limits. We are not starting from a position that God is all-powerful as religion does. That brings 'if' into play.

dhw: Maybe he gave organisms the means to go their own way, and maybe humans were the result of a dabble or the result of the evolving intelligence that your God had set in motion. Maybe. Even to you that makes sense in the light of evolutionary history, but still you insist that your non-sensical hypothesis must be true because that is what you believe.

All you have described above is chance when you leave God's dabbles behind. Recognize that fluffiness in thought.


DAVID: He either pre-planned or dabbled, probably both. He may have given organisms some freedom to try out adaptations (yes!) or phenotypic changes toward new species (an IM with His adjustment dabbles working together....possible). This is the area of your questioning, asking for some degree of exactitude, where I wander around, because I see no evidence in science to guide me. We just don't know about speciation, and Darwin is completely wrong.

dhw: Nobody knows about speciation. You wrote: “Autonomous IM's with follow up dabbles, as you've agreed, are fine.” A follow up dabble would only be necessary if something went wrong or if your God wanted to try something new. The hypothesis of an autonomous intelligent inventive mechanism (designed by your God), which you keep agreeing to and then not agreeing to, cannot be autonomous if it can ONLY work with God’s dabbling. You know the meaning of the word “autonomous” as well as I do.

Of course I know: I'm looking at your proposal as a two-step process: an autonomous change by organisms and a corrective dabble follow up as necessary, which does make it semiautonomous.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Wednesday, March 01, 2017, 13:19 (2824 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: My version of what happened makes perfect sense to me. What seems to puzzle you is that I can 't precisely define the limits of God's powers, if any. We cannot know exactly what He can do and what may be limits. We are not starting from a position that God is all-powerful as religion does. That brings 'if' into play.

To avoid repetition, see my response under “asteroids”.

dhw: Maybe he gave organisms the means to go their own way, and maybe humans were the result of a dabble or the result of the evolving intelligence that your God had set in motion. Maybe. Even to you that makes sense in the light of evolutionary history, but still you insist that your non-sensical hypothesis must be true because that is what you believe.
DAVID: All you have described above is chance when you leave God's dabbles behind. Recognize that fluffiness in thought.

Intelligent exploitation of the environment is not chance, and if the intelligence was designed by God for that very purpose, again there is no chance. The “fluff” comes when you dither over the degree to which your God does or does not control the environment.

dhw: You wrote: “Autonomous IM's with follow up dabbles, as you've agreed, are fine.” A follow up dabble would only be necessary if something went wrong or if your God wanted to try something new. The hypothesis of an autonomous intelligent inventive mechanism (designed by your God), which you keep agreeing to and then not agreeing to, cannot be autonomous if it can ONLY work with God’s dabbling. You know the meaning of the word “autonomous” as well as I do.
DAVID: Of course I know: I'm looking at your proposal as a two-step process: an autonomous change by organisms and a corrective dabble follow up as necessary, which does make it semiautonomous.

A correction is only necessary if something goes wrong. So are you now suggesting that the carnivorous plants, the frogs, the monarch butterfly, the cuttlefish, the parasitic wasps all autonomously worked out their own means of survival but got it wrong and then God stepped in to correct them? If that is not what you mean, please tell us what you think these organisms came up with autonomously.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Wednesday, March 01, 2017, 18:30 (2824 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: Maybe he gave organisms the means to go their own way, and maybe humans were the result of a dabble or the result of the evolving intelligence that your God had set in motion. Maybe. Even to you that makes sense in the light of evolutionary history, but still you insist that your non-sensical hypothesis must be true because that is what you believe.

DAVID: All you have described above is chance when you leave God's dabbles behind. Recognize that fluffiness in thought.

dhw: Intelligent exploitation of the environment is not chance, and if the intelligence was designed by God for that very purpose, again there is no chance. The “fluff” comes when you dither over the degree to which your God does or does not control the environment.


I have to 'dither'. I have few firm beliefs . You know what I am firm about.

DAVID: Of course I know: I'm looking at your proposal as a two-step process: an autonomous change by organisms and a corrective dabble follow up as necessary, which does make it semiautonomous.

dhw:A correction is only necessary if something goes wrong. So are you now suggesting that the carnivorous plants, the frogs, the monarch butterfly, the cuttlefish, the parasitic wasps all autonomously worked out their own means of survival but got it wrong and then God stepped in to correct them? If that is not what you mean, please tell us what you think these organisms came up with autonomously.

I didn't say that at all. I can't comment on each tiny step in evolution as you wish. All I can give you is God guided evolution. We do not know how much organisms can change other than the minor alterations we see in epigenetics.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Thursday, March 02, 2017, 13:23 (2823 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: All you have described above is chance when you leave God's dabbles behind. Recognize that fluffiness in thought.
dhw: Intelligent exploitation of the environment is not chance, and if the intelligence was designed by God for that very purpose, again there is no chance. The “fluff” comes when you dither over the degree to which your God does or does not control the environment.
DAVID: I have to 'dither'. I have few firm beliefs . You know what I am firm about.

You are firm in your belief that God created everything for the purpose of producing humans, even though when you look at the history of evolution, it doesn’t make sense to you. This you have admitted, just as in the past you have admitted that your God may have created an autonomous inventive mechanism, but subsequently you backtrack because such arguments undermine your key belief. That basic anthropocentric premise is what leads you into all the convolutions and contradictions we are trying and failing to make sense of.

DAVID (on the meaning of autonomy): Of course I know: I'm looking at your proposal as a two-step process: an autonomous change by organisms and a corrective dabble follow up as necessary, which does make it semiautonomous.
dhw:A correction is only necessary if something goes wrong. So are you now suggesting that the carnivorous plants, the frogs, the monarch butterfly, the cuttlefish, the parasitic wasps all autonomously worked out their own means of survival but got it wrong and then God stepped in to correct them? If that is not what you mean, please tell us what you think these organisms came up with autonomously.
DAVID: I didn't say that at all. I can't comment on each tiny step in evolution as you wish. All I can give you is God guided evolution. We do not know how much organisms can change other than the minor alterations we see in epigenetics.

But you do comment on all these tiny steps. With each example, you have insisted that God did it. If so, according to you, it can only be that the plants, frogs, butterflies, cuttlefish and wasps did it in the first “step”, but they got it wrong so God had to drop by with a “corrective dabble”. If God didn’t step in with a “corrective dabble”, then the organisms must have got it right straight away. And that means autonomy.

Evolution took a long time

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Sunday, March 05, 2017, 21:16 (2820 days ago) @ David Turell

As we find less randomness and more specificity in our dna, it becomes increasingly unlikely that macro-evolution occurred at all, regardless of how much time you allow for.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Monday, March 06, 2017, 00:44 (2820 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Tony: As we find less randomness and more specificity in our dna, it becomes increasingly unlikely that macro-evolution occurred at all, regardless of how much time you allow for.

You are just making my point in a different way. Speciation may simply be God in action.

Evolution took a long time

by dhw, Monday, March 06, 2017, 13:19 (2819 days ago) @ David Turell

Tony: As we find less randomness and more specificity in our dna, it becomes increasingly unlikely that macro-evolution occurred at all, regardless of how much time you allow for.

DAVID: You are just making my point in a different way. Speciation may simply be God in action.

God in action will apply to every single theistic interpretation of how speciation took place. Tony is not making your point in a different way, because Tony does not believe that macro-evolution ever took place at all.

Evolution took a long time

by David Turell @, Monday, March 06, 2017, 15:30 (2819 days ago) @ dhw

Tony: As we find less randomness and more specificity in our dna, it becomes increasingly unlikely that macro-evolution occurred at all, regardless of how much time you allow for.

DAVID: You are just making my point in a different way. Speciation may simply be God in action.

dhw: God in action will apply to every single theistic interpretation of how speciation took place. Tony is not making your point in a different way, because Tony does not believe that macro-evolution ever took place at all.

My difference with Tony is small. I have concluded that God is the only source of speciation. I think evolution is stepwise creation.

Evolution took a long time: flying dinosaurs

by David Turell @, Monday, May 29, 2017, 23:24 (2735 days ago) @ David Turell

In trying to fit in what we see in evolution we need to recognize the size of the gaps between the various stages of, for example, the series of changes from dinosaur to bird:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/20150602-dinosaurs-to-birds/

"It is worth studying. Recognizing the degree of complexity leads to recognizing the need for a sophisticated mind to plan the changes. The development of the feather alone is enough for me to reach that conclusion. It has be invented before flight develops. What use are feathers for the non-flying dinosaur, before he ability to fly develops? Not much if anything. The development of the feather is also highly complex when studied. Bones had to become lighter, metabolism revved up. The whole series of changes strongly suggests planning and teleology.

" Another dinosaur to bird essay is presented. Not worth quoting much but it shows neat pictures of the Chinese fossils that have been recently found. It turns out many dinosaurs were feathered, even non-fliers or gliders:

https://cosmosmagazine.com/palaeontology/jurassic-flight-school

" 'we now know of about 50 species of dinosaur for which there is direct evidence of feathers. Some have halos of fluff or beautiful fans of flight feathers delicately traced into their remarkable fossils; others have a distinctive pygostyle tailbone that would have been an attachment point for feathers; still others have bumps along their forearms – “quill knobs”, where feathers attach to ligaments in the wings of modern birds.

***

"Sinosauropteryx’s downy fuzz was probably used for insulation. In later models of dinosaurs, feathers also began to be used for display. The massive Gigantoraptor, an 8-metre-long, parrot-beaked omnivore found in the Gobi Desert of Inner Mongolia, for example, likely used great fans of tail feathers for mating displays. Only much later in the evolutionary process did feathers begin to be used for flight, such as in the four-winged, pigeon-sized dinosaur, Microraptor, found in 2000.

***

"It’s not clear what kind of flight mechanism these “bat” dinosaurs employed, but they may have used a mixture of gliding and flapping. Xu’s team attempted, without much luck, to make structural models based on the fossil, to test them aerodynamically. Now they are creating three-dimensional computer models instead. The experts also reappraised the handful of other scansoriopterygid fossils in light of what they know about Yi, but haven’t yet found direct evidence of the styliform element or membranous wings.

***

"The really big question is why this group evolved a second method of dinosaur flight when many closely related theropod lineages had species with very large flight feathers.

“'Why evolve a completely different flight mechanism and body plan?’ asks Xu. “This is really bizarre and, so far, I don’t have a good answer.” He believes that whenever big evolutionary transitions take place – such as that from terrestrial dinosaurs to flying birds –strange experiments take place to fill the new niche.

"Some of those experiments may well be recorded in the rocks of Hebei and Liaoning. “Yi qi was totally unexpected. We couldn’t believe it. If you know dinosaurs very well and the transition well, then you’d never expect there would be a dinosaur with bat-like or pterosaur-like wings instead of feathered wings. Discoveries like this will continue to emerge and demonstrate how complex the transition to birds was’, Xu says. “I would not be surprised if we find even more bizarre species in the future.'”

Comment: Evolution seems to try more than one way to advance a process.

Evolution took a long time: flying dinosaurs

by David Turell @, Friday, April 17, 2020, 00:16 (1682 days ago) @ David Turell

The biggest flier of all used specialized techniques from which we can learn much aeronautic engineering:

https://cosmosmagazine.com/palaeontology/learning-to-fly-from-dinosaurs?utm_source=Cosm...

"Pterosaurs, the largest animals ever to fly, soared the skies for 160 million years – much longer than any species of modern bird. That ought to be enough to think about how they did it, and what we can learn from them.

"But despite their aeronautic excellence, these ancient flyers have largely been overlooked in the pursuit of bio-inspired flight technologies.

Now, in a review just published in the journal Trends in Ecology and Evolution, researchers outline why and how the physiology of fossil flyers could provide ancient solutions to modern flight problems, such as aerial stability and the ability of drones to self-launch.

***

"Martin-Silverstone says there are a select few pterosaur fossils that provide extraordinarily deep insight into the anatomy of their wings, which is essential for understanding their flight capabilities.

“'There are two or three absolutely amazingly preserved pterosaur fossils that let you see the different layers within the wing membrane, giving us insight into its fibrous components,” she says.

***

“'Also, some fossils are preserved enough to show the wing attachments beneath the hip. While you don’t know exactly the shape of the wing, by knowing the membrane attachments you can model the effectiveness of different wing shapes and determine which would have performed best in natural conditions.”

***

"Launching into the air through a leap or jump, also known as ballistic launch, is standard throughout the animal kingdom. However, larger birds require a running start to gain enough momentum for lift-off.

Incredibly, pterosaurs may have developed a method to launch from a stationary position, despite some specimens weighing nearly 300 kilograms.

One hypothesis, proposed by co-author Mike Habib, of the Dinosaur Institute at the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, US, suggests that the wing membrane and the robust muscle attachments in the wings allowed pterosaurs to generate a high-powered leap off their elbows and wrists, giving them enough height to become airborne.

***

Martin-Silverstone suggests that if we combine our knowledge from flyers both living and extinct, we’ll have a much better chance of overcoming the hurdles still hindering man-made flight. She wants biologists and engineers to reach out to palaeontologists when they’re looking to solve flight problems.

“'If we limit ourselves to looking at the modern animals, then we’re missing out on a lot of diversity that might be useful.'”

Comment: God, as av designer is a much better engineer than we are. But then again, His brain cannot be compared to ours.

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