beliefs are the root cause of agony (Introduction)
by whyamihere 
, Mumbai, Wednesday, February 02, 2011, 18:05 (5022 days ago)
I M FORCED TO COME HERE ONLY BECAUSE OF THE CURIOSITY OF MY EXISTENCE. AND I SUPPOSE THAT THIS WEBSITE IS TRYING TO SOLVE THIS QUESTION. WELL WHEN I WAS BORN I JUST EXISTED FOR SOME DAYS TILL I CAME BECAME AWARE OF MY EXISTENCE FROM THE WORLD AROUND ME. IT IMPOSED ON ME EVERYTHING I WAS I AM AND I WILL BE. I ACCEPTED SOME THINGS AND REJECTED A FEW AS PER MY WILL AND EGO SATISFACTION. THIS LED TO DEVELOPMENT OF THE EGO AND I STARTED BECOMING FAKE FROM NATURAL. I KNOW ALL THE ABOVE ARE MY BELIEFS OF MY BEING AND MY EXISTENCE BUT I HAVE NO OTHER WAY TO EXPLAIN THE SAME. MY INDEPENDENT THINKING WAS A RESULT OF MY SELF GRATIFYING AND EGO BOOSTING PRE CONCEIVED NOTIONS WHICH SUITED ME AND MY EXISTENCE WHICH GAVE ME MY SPACE AND SOMETHING TO BE PROUD ABOUT AND THE REASON OF MY EXISTENCE. THEM CAME INTO MY LIFE MY EDUCATIONAL AND RELIGIONISTS TEACHERS WHICH IMPOSED UPON MY THINKING THE MORALS AND PRICIPLES WHICH WERE ACCEPTED BY THE SOCEITY AND INCREASED THE PROBABILITY OF PEACEFUL EXISTENCE OF LIVING RACE OR THE LIVING FRATERNITY. WITH THESE IMPOSED MORALS I BEGAN TO LIVE A LIFE WHICH ONCE AGAIN HELPED ME TO SELF GRATIFY MY EXISTENCE BY NOT HARMING THE OTHERS AND NATURE. BEING ACCEPTED IN THE SOCEITY AS A GENTLEMAN I NOW WANT TO KNOW WHY I AM SO GOOD TO THE SOCEITY OR WHY AM I RESTRICTING MYSELF TO BE GOOD AS PER THE NORMS OF THE SOCEITY. i AM FEELING THAT I AM THE SLAVE OF MY BELIEFS WHICH ARE IMPOSED UPON ME BY THE NATURE THROUGH VARIOUS MEDIA. ALL MY ACTIONS AND THOUGHTS ARE INSPIRED BY MY BELIEFS AND THE NEED TO GRATIFY MY EXISTENCE. I THINK THAT A CHAMELEON WHICH AHANGES COLORS AS PER THE SURROUNDINGS IN WHICH IT IS IS THE APT EXAMPLE OF THE LIFE WE ARE ALL LIVING.SO THE BELIEFS OF ATHEISM, AGNOSTICISM OR THEISM ARE ALL THE PRODUCTS OF OUR PAST AND IF AN OPEN MIND IS APPLIED TO THE CONCEPT WE WILL COME TO KNOW THAT WE ARE STILL THE SAME ZERO KNOWLEDGE SELF GRATIFYING PESTS SHOOTING THE ARROWS IN THE AIR WITHOUT ANY AIM.
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by David Turell , Wednesday, February 02, 2011, 20:18 (5022 days ago) @ whyamihere
I THINK THAT A CHAMELEON WHICH AHANGES COLORS AS PER THE SURROUNDINGS IN WHICH IT IS IS THE APT EXAMPLE OF THE LIFE WE ARE ALL LIVING.SO THE BELIEFS OF ATHEISM, AGNOSTICISM OR THEISM ARE ALL THE PRODUCTS OF OUR PAST AND IF AN OPEN MIND IS APPLIED TO THE CONCEPT WE WILL COME TO KNOW THAT WE ARE STILL THE SAME ZERO KNOWLEDGE SELF GRATIFYING PESTS SHOOTING THE ARROWS IN THE AIR WITHOUT ANY AIM.-A very nihilistic view of humans, who try to follow the rules of society. What is wrong with Hinduism, Buddhism, or the Monotheistic philosophies?
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by David Turell , Thursday, February 03, 2011, 01:13 (5022 days ago) @ David Turell
Richard Dawkins is at it again. Here he comments on an astronomer who sued a university that denied him a job, even though he was by far the most qualified candidate, and won a money award. Of course, Dickie thinks the laws are wrong. The astronomer was reputed to hold to certain Bible teachings.-http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/24/should-employers-be.html
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Thursday, February 03, 2011, 02:18 (5022 days ago) @ David Turell
Richard Dawkins is at it again. Here he comments on an astronomer who sued a university that denied him a job, even though he was by far the most qualified candidate, and won a money award. Of course, Dickie thinks the laws are wrong. The astronomer was reputed to hold to certain Bible teachings. > > http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/24/should-employers-be.html-Yeah, -if Science is going to increase its fold it needs more Francis Collins' and less Dawkins.
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\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"
\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by whyamihere , Thursday, February 03, 2011, 13:01 (5021 days ago) @ David Turell
well i am a jain who is a bit confused by the extreism in the philosophy that it preaches. an individual who has to attain nirwana would have attained nirvana as and when it evolved and wont be suffering the cycle of death and birth. secondly if the number of living being in the world is constant then what will happen to the universe (not the only on we know but the whole lok and alok as described in the scriptures) if all the beings attain nirvana. and if ane attains nirwana and just enjoys the pleasure of eternal and infinite knowlege then doesnt the theory of marginal utility work there. why does the being not feel like indulging itself in other good charities once he has attained nirwana. whats the logic behind attaining nirwan and settling on the siddhshila and doing b\nothing in a formless, bodiless and eternal existence the things confuse me and i sometimes think the if we leave our ego, our ore conceived notions, and our emotions then the pleasures of nirwana can be enjoyed here too along with the pains of this selfish world. wht do u say the philosophies of hinduism, buddism anf other eastern theories are constructed by highly evolved intelligent individual who came to this world and had ample time like us to ponder on the subject if u or any one for that instance focussed on the subject fot few years, i am sure he can start his own cult and followers, what is true and what is not is another subject all together correct me if i am wrong Regrds
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by David Turell , Friday, February 04, 2011, 00:25 (5021 days ago) @ whyamihere
well i am a jain who is a bit confused by the extreism in the philosophy that it preaches.-Although my wife and I have visited Jain temples in India, we learned little of the philosophy. The temples are beautiful, most impressive. And so I reviewed what is described about Jainism. I was quite impressed as it is peaceful and has deep regard for interhuman gentle relationships. > whats the logic behind attaining nirwan and settling on the siddhshila and doing b\nothing in a formless, bodiless and eternal existence > wht do u say-We in Monotheism think of afterlife as Heaven, but none of us know what to expect if we arrive there. What can you expect of nirvana (nirwana) until you arrive there? Both Heaven and nirwana are conceived as providing infinite knowledge. That could be very interesting. > what is true and what is not is another subject all together > correct me if i am wrong-Exactly. None of us know what is the truth about life after life.
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Thursday, February 03, 2011, 02:16 (5022 days ago) @ whyamihere
whyamihere,-Welcome--and an interesting post. -Agnosticism/atheism/theism are not things that can really inform you about you. -You're close to something... dark and fascinating. The question isn't so much what philosophy to follow, but what can you fully say is true? And if you judge truth irrational/impossible, what then will you replace it with?-Man is the only creature we can say with certainty that can give himself aim...-The ultimate blasphemy is that man is the only creature capable of something Ex Nihilo. Audeamus?
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\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"
\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by romansh 
, Monday, February 07, 2011, 00:07 (5018 days ago) @ xeno6696
Man is the only creature we can say with certainty that can give himself aim... This of course assumes that we have free will. If we don't we can't give ourselves anything?
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Monday, February 07, 2011, 00:45 (5018 days ago) @ romansh
Man is the only creature we can say with certainty that can give himself aim... > This of course assumes that we have free will. If we don't we can't give ourselves anything?-An odd statement. The capricious nature of man itself is a testament to free will. Though you have not spent much time in Zen practice...-I would suggest "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" by Suzuki. The entire practice of Zen is a study in exercising free will.
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\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"
\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by romansh , Monday, February 07, 2011, 04:54 (5017 days ago) @ xeno6696
Man is the only creature we can say with certainty that can give himself aim... > > This of course assumes that we have free will. If we don't we can't give ourselves anything? > > An odd statement. The capricious nature of man itself is a testament to free will. Though you have not spent much time in Zen practice... > > I would suggest "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" by Suzuki. The entire practice of Zen is a study in exercising free will.-From what little I have read free will (or its absence) and zen teachings are not mutually exclusive.-You say capricious - how is this a testament to free will?
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Monday, February 07, 2011, 12:10 (5017 days ago) @ romansh
Man is the only creature we can say with certainty that can give himself aim... > > > This of course assumes that we have free will. If we don't we can't give ourselves anything? > > > > An odd statement. The capricious nature of man itself is a testament to free will. Though you have not spent much time in Zen practice... > > > > I would suggest "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" by Suzuki. The entire practice of Zen is a study in exercising free will. > > From what little I have read free will (or its absence) and zen teachings are not mutually exclusive. > > You say capricious - how is this a testament to free will?-One measure of nondeterminism is the amount by which a subject is predictable.
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\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"
\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by romansh , Tuesday, February 08, 2011, 04:21 (5016 days ago) @ xeno6696
One measure of nondeterminism is the amount by which a subject is predictable.-Is this true of chaotic systems? And if so, what do you mean by non determinism?
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, February 08, 2011, 16:11 (5016 days ago) @ romansh
One measure of nondeterminism is the amount by which a subject is predictable. > > Is this true of chaotic systems? > And if so, what do you mean by non determinism?-Romansh, are you trying to play games with me? -First, Chaos theory has an unknowable role in what we're discussing here; and it is used to explain systems that we would think are chaotic and non-deterministic but actually are deterministic, such as how a drop of food coloring disperses in water, or clouds. Write the paper that demonstrates that the mind IS simply a chaotic system, and prepare your flight to Sweden.-Some plain examples. I spent 8 years in healthcare, and there is some interesting ideas I will bring up here. -Take OCD patients. These are the closest to what you would expect a "non free will" person to be. However the telling fact--is that when they are engaging in their behaviors, they know that it is not THEM that is in control. One gentleman explained it to me that it's like watching someone else grab a hold of the steering wheel of a car. -What is telling to me, is that he is aware that he's being controlled. He knows that his body is acting against his will. -Neurosurgeons report similar behavior. You've heard of minor experiments where the Doctor will apply an electrode to a patient's brain, and can say, make them feel emotions such as anger. The interesting thing about this is that the subjects can tell the difference between what is coming from the electrode and what is coming from themselves. -In other words the mind is fully aware that it is being intruded upon. In BOTH cases. One is being overridden internally, the other is being acted upon externally. -The suggestion that man does not have Free Will needs to be able to explain how a person can distinguish between something they mean to do and do perform, and something that they are willing themselves not to do--and they perform anyway by compulsion. Of what utility is this ability if not for free will?
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\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"
\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by romansh , Wednesday, February 09, 2011, 04:25 (5015 days ago) @ xeno6696
I'm not sure of your point here xeno, are not human beings and societies chaotic systems? -I would argue they are.
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Wednesday, February 09, 2011, 22:48 (5015 days ago) @ romansh
I'm not sure of your point here xeno, are not human beings and societies chaotic systems? > > I would argue they are.- Formally, the answer to your question is "no." There is no theorem in chaos theory that describes human systems as "chaotic."-Are you arguing within the confines of mathematical chaos theory? -If you are, then the burden of proof is completely upon you, because I have not read of such a proof in either of my books on non-linear dynamics--and trust me, such a proof would profoundly impact all aspects of chaos theory. Publish the proof, and send yourself to Sweden. Or admit your path is blocked here.-If you are arguing "chaotic" as in "human beings exhibit disorder," then humans have free will. The opposite of "free will" is determinism, and in this view human beings are nothing but predictable finite automata. Human behavior has shown itself to be unpredictable in all but the most grandly generic scales. The only way to argue that humans are determinable is to ultimately resort to Chaos Theory which is blocked above. -Either way--at this juncture you have nothing to argue. But I'll go further...-In terms of other kinds of evidence, as I said before the entire body of Zen Buddhism (and much of Hinduism) is rooted in the deliberate practice of free will. If you learn how to focus, you can tell the difference between your mind and your consciousness. The mind is a chatterbox. The consciousness is serene.-In the OCD case & neurosurgery case I discussed, people were aware that they were being controlled. These two bits of evidence are two more slams against the notion that human behavior is deterministic.-And last but not least... the entire field of psychology. The only attempt to bring "order" from "disorder" in the human world. It too fails to explain human behavior. (Economics does a much better job of that.)
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\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"
\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by David Turell , Thursday, February 10, 2011, 01:00 (5015 days ago) @ xeno6696
I'm not sure of your point here xeno, are not human beings and societies chaotic systems? > > > > I would argue they are. > > > Formally, the answer to your question is "no." There is no theorem in chaos theory that describes human systems as "chaotic." > > Are you arguing within the confines of mathematical chaos theory? -I don't think he is. There are lots of chaotic humans, and as for societies, no question, but certainly not mathematical.
beliefs are the root cause of agony
by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Thursday, February 10, 2011, 02:05 (5015 days ago) @ David Turell
I'm not sure of your point here xeno, are not human beings and societies chaotic systems? > > > > > > I would argue they are. > > > > > > Formally, the answer to your question is "no." There is no theorem in chaos theory that describes human systems as "chaotic." > > > > Are you arguing within the confines of mathematical chaos theory? > > I don't think he is. There are lots of chaotic humans, and as for societies, no question, but certainly not mathematical.-David,-Don't know if you were just jumping in the middle here, but going back a few posts, he was using the language of chaos theory--if he didn't mean to, that's fine, but he seemed to be implying that since humans were "chaotic systems" that they could be somehow described by chaos theory--which describes systems that we call chaotic but are really deterministic. So while the confusion could be me mistaking his words, I wanted to make sure exactly where we were on the topic.
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\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"
\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"