Language, Mathematics, and Reductionism (Humans)

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Thursday, January 20, 2011, 22:02 (5055 days ago)
edited by unknown, Thursday, January 20, 2011, 22:09

One of the classes I'm taking right now is in the specification and design of computer programming languages. This has necessarily forced me to look deeply into mathematics in terms of what exactly is its nature and why is it so good at what it does—as well as the purpose and the goal of language. -Mathematics is the penultimate language of reductionism. It is based on axioms; and it is this category that David chastised me over after my first quick discussion on axioms being tautologies. I didn't appreciate it so much before, but the previous thread on the reality of mathematical objects was a path where I was thinking there was some "truth" in mathematics. But the Agrippan mode I adopted, hinders that approach. I'm more in line with our dearly departed George. -First a couple of observations: David, I've found you (quite often) chastising the reductionist approach to explaining the world. However; recently you've found a new appreciation for math. What gives? There is nothing in all of humanity that is more reductionist than math! Yet you've refuted many, many, times the idea that life or the universe can be explained by reductionism. -How do you reconcile these two opposing views?-The next observation is more general. The amazement with math isn't something I understand, except in the remembrance that before I knew it better, I thought it magical and mysterious. It isn't. This is because as I said earlier, all languages attempt to approximate reality. The amazement is similar to the concept that "man is intrinsically special" in the cosmos. I'm not looking for that discussion, but what the amazement really is, is the amazement that we can understand and comprehend the cosmos. It isn't amazement at math, but at our own ability, our seemingly unique ability to use and manipulate language beautifully. In short, we are proud of ourselves!-In my view, math is but one language among many; a universal language to be true—but this is because its rules are incredibly simple. Even "complex" things such as integration or differentiation are in reality only the use of addition, subtraction, multiplication and division on quantities of numbers. Physics uses these rules to write descriptions for motion, down to the particles that make up our cosmos themselves.-Don't let our ability to manipulate numbers be the reason to find God... this is a mirage.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Language, Mathematics, and Reductionism

by David Turell @, Friday, January 21, 2011, 15:46 (5054 days ago) @ xeno6696


> First a couple of observations: David, I've found you (quite often) chastising the reductionist approach to explaining the world. However; recently you've found a new appreciation for math. What gives? There is nothing in all of humanity that is more reductionist than math! Yet you've refuted many, many, times the idea that life or the universe can be explained by reductionism. 
> 
> How do you reconcile these two opposing views?-I don't have to: e=mc^2 may be a reductionist statement but it presents a huge concept of our reality. I look at forests, not trees, for my final conclusions. I may understand the dendrology of a tree species, but it leads to recognizing all-encompassing fractal formulae for the whole forest.

Language, Mathematics, and Reductionism

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Friday, January 21, 2011, 16:05 (5054 days ago) @ David Turell


> > First a couple of observations: David, I've found you (quite often) chastising the reductionist approach to explaining the world. However; recently you've found a new appreciation for math. What gives? There is nothing in all of humanity that is more reductionist than math! Yet you've refuted many, many, times the idea that life or the universe can be explained by reductionism. 
> > 
> > How do you reconcile these two opposing views?
> 
> I don't have to: e=mc^2 may be a reductionist statement but it presents a huge concept of our reality. I look at forests, not trees, for my final conclusions. I may understand the dendrology of a tree species, but it leads to recognizing all-encompassing fractal formulae for the whole forest.-So do you think that the mathematical concepts we describe the universe are the same as what the creator uses?

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Language, Mathematics, and Reductionism

by David Turell @, Friday, January 21, 2011, 17:56 (5054 days ago) @ xeno6696


> So do you think that the mathematical concepts we describe the universe are the same as what the creator uses?-Absolutely. The maths we use are a form of the reality we see. Since our intellectual capacities are a part of the universal consciousness and intelligence, that is an easy statement to make. My belief system is always based on the concept from my philosophy prof in college: everything is energy: matter is energy on the outside and mind is energy on the inside. Math concepts are instructions for increasing universal complexity from the simplicity of the original plasmas of the big Bang. Maths that describe forms not yet in our reality indicate possible potentials or conjectures of future reality recognitions: Calabi-Yau space, Kaluza-Klein theory.

Language, Mathematics, and Reductionism

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Friday, January 21, 2011, 23:49 (5054 days ago) @ David Turell


> > So do you think that the mathematical concepts we describe the universe are the same as what the creator uses?
> 
> Absolutely. The maths we use are a form of the reality we see. Since our intellectual capacities are a part of the universal consciousness and intelligence, that is an easy statement to make. My belief system is always based on the concept from my philosophy prof in college: everything is energy: matter is energy on the outside and mind is energy on the inside. Math concepts are instructions for increasing universal complexity from the simplicity of the original plasmas of the big Bang. Maths that describe forms not yet in our reality indicate possible potentials or conjectures of future reality recognitions: Calabi-Yau space, Kaluza-Klein theory.-You support String Theory? I could have sworn you were a critic...? If we can't verify Calabi-Yau or Kaluza-Klein, they are meaningless theories.-My take is that math is language only. And we use it to describe nature. Personally I think that a God would be more likely if we couldn't describe our world with it.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Language, Mathematics, and Reductionism

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 22, 2011, 00:48 (5054 days ago) @ xeno6696

Maths that describe forms not yet in our reality indicate possible potentials or conjectures of future reality recognitions: Calabi-Yau space, Kaluza-Klein theory.
> 
> You support String Theory? I could have sworn you were a critic...? If we can't verify Calabi-Yau or Kaluza-Klein, they are meaningless theories.-I said 'possible...conjectures'. I used those as an example.I think string theory is dead as the dodo. Dhw take note.-> My take is that math is language only. And we use it to describe nature. Personally I think that a God would be more likely if we couldn't describe our world with it.-Why can't God have language of any sort. He gave us the ability to invent math and to learn language quickly.

Language, Mathematics, and Reductionism

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, January 25, 2011, 11:47 (5050 days ago) @ David Turell


> > My take is that math is language only. And we use it to describe nature. Personally I think that a God would be more likely if we couldn't describe our world with it.
> 
> Why can't God have language of any sort. He gave us the ability to invent math and to learn language quickly.-Language's purpose is purely for communication. What need would a supreme being have for communication as crude as math, instead of communicating by direct experience?

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Language, Mathematics, and Reductionism

by David Turell @, Tuesday, January 25, 2011, 15:32 (5050 days ago) @ xeno6696


> Language's purpose is purely for communication. What need would a supreme being have for communication as crude as math, instead of communicating by direct experience?-My direct experiences in life are not as elegant as the precise formulation in math, which explain so much. Math is far beyond the ordinary experiences of everyday reality. It describes reality, but seems to have a world of its own.

Language, Mathematics, and Reductionism

by David Turell @, Saturday, September 25, 2021, 15:29 (1154 days ago) @ xeno6696

Reductionism will not explain life:

https://bigthink.com/13-8/mystery-of-life/

"If the question is, “Can science explain life?” then the answer I think someday will be “mostly yes,” if what we are aiming for are the processes at work in life. Science has already successfully deployed the technique of reduction to see the building blocks of life. Reduction means looking for explanations or successful predictive descriptions of a system by focusing on its smaller-scale constitutive elements. If you are interested in a human body, then reductions lead down from organs to cells to DNA to genes to biomolecules and so on. That approach has obviously been spectacularly successful.

"It has not, however, been enough. The frontier now seems to be understanding life as a complex adaptive system, meaning one in which organization and cause occur on many levels. It is not just the atomic building blocks that matter; influences propagate up and down the scale, with multiple connected networks from genes to the environment and back. As I have written before, information may play an essential role here in ways that do not occur in non-living systems.

"But the deeper question remains: will this ongoing process of explanatory refinement exhaust the weirdness of being alive or the mystery of life that I described in the opening? I think not.

"The reason I take that position is because there is a profound and (literally) existential difference between an explanation and experience. We humans invented the marvelous process called science to understand the patterns we experience around us. We did this because we are curious creatures by nature and because we also hope to gain some control over the world around us. But here is the key point: experience is always more than the explanation. The direct, unmediated totality of experience can never be corralled by an explanation. Why? Because experience is the source of explanations.

***

"The key point here is that direct, lived experience is not amenable to explanation. I can theorize about perception and cognition. I can do experiments to test those theories. But even if I gave you an account of what every nerve cell in your brain at every nanosecond was doing, it would still not be experience. It would be nothing more than a list of words and numbers. Your actual and direct experience of the world — of the tart taste of an apple or of looking into the eyes of someone you love — would always overflow the list. There would always be more.

"That is because explanations always take some particular aspect of lived experience and separate it out. Explanation is like the foreground. But experience is beyond foreground and background. It is an inseparable holism, a totality that does not atomize. It is not something you think in your head; it is what you live as a body embedded in surroundings. That is how every moment of our strange, beautiful, sad, tragic, and fully amazing lives is revealed moment by moment. Explanations may help in specific circumstances, but they can never exhaust that ongoing revelation that is the mystery of life."

Comment: the writer is struggling with the concept of our consciousness without saying the word. But his key point is reductionism cannot give us an explanation of it. I would like to note my presentation of reductionist science discoveries won't get that explanation. What they do show is the need for a brilliant designer behind the underpinnings of life itself that produce consciousness. Briefly, consciousness cannot exist without being designed.

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