Why religion is appealing (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 09, 2010, 00:43 (5098 days ago)

A new study finds that making friends in congregations is the major factor:-
http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-12-reveals-secret-ingredient-religion-people.html

Why religion is appealing

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Thursday, December 09, 2010, 03:28 (5098 days ago) @ David Turell

There has always been a community motive for religion, and that same community has always been a source of contention between two congregations of disparate thoughts. What I am more curious about is why so many people have felt the need for a god to begin with. Based of its pervasiveness and archaeological evidence we can assume that the vast majority of all humans who ever lived had at least some notion of God, despite vast differences in culture, and vast geological separation.

Why religion is appealing

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 09, 2010, 05:09 (5098 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

There has always been a community motive for religion, and that same community has always been a source of contention between two congregations of disparate thoughts. What I am more curious about is why so many people have felt the need for a god to begin with. Based of its pervasiveness and archaeological evidence we can assume that the vast majority of all humans who ever lived had at least some notion of God, despite vast differences in culture, and vast geological separation.-The exact point made by Karen Armstrong in her book, "A History of God'. She thought we were programmed to be religious.

Why religion is appealing

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Thursday, December 09, 2010, 06:31 (5098 days ago) @ David Turell

I am not inclined to disagree, just like we are 'programmed' for other things, breeding, music, laughter, love, etc.

Why religion is appealing

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Thursday, December 09, 2010, 12:37 (5098 days ago) @ David Turell

This doesn't really answer why religion has the hold it does.
People also get happiness from other community activities,
such as supporting football clubs, or even local humanist groups.
I don't believe there is any inherent need to believe in gods.
I've certainly never detected any tendency for that in myself.
In fact I would say I have an inherent liking for natural explanations.

--
GPJ

Why religion is appealing

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Friday, December 10, 2010, 07:24 (5097 days ago) @ George Jelliss

This doesn't really answer why religion has the hold it does.
> People also get happiness from other community activities,
> such as supporting football clubs, or even local humanist groups.
> I don't believe there is any inherent need to believe in gods.
> I've certainly never detected any tendency for that in myself.
> In fact I would say I have an inherent liking for natural explanations.-Football and other clubs filled a social need for me, but I can not say that they ever scratched the particular itch I have that spirituality does. And contrary to other popular beliefs, for me at least, it has nothing to do with being afraid of death or the unknown, or the need for a non-naturalistic explanation for events. When science makes sense, I have no problem excepting their explanations for things. However, when they start touting things like quantum fluctuations literally created something for nothing, I just want to reach across and slap them while asking what created the quantum fluctuations, or designed the system that allowed those quantum fluctuations to happen in the first place. Some may think me unreasonable, irrational, or illogical, but to me, saying that I observe too much organization for it all to be random chance is not illogical, or irrational at all.

Why religion is appealing

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Sunday, December 12, 2010, 14:03 (5095 days ago) @ David Turell

A new study finds that making friends in congregations is the major factor:
> 
> 
> http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-12-reveals-secret-ingredient-religion-people.html-Without a doubt. -In a more practical manner, though I'm only 31, I've often found myself asking the question of, "Who will take care of me when my wife and (future) kids are gone?" The typical social structure in America is such that, if you are religion-less, you are going to have a tough time solving these issues, as they're historically done by your friends in the congregation; I witnessed it when I was a kid, and the power of mere association by congregation is an important tribal kind of thing. I don't know how to solve that problem individually, or as religion in America continues to mirror Europe, as a society. There's a social compulsion in the congregation, that I do not know how to otherwise recreate. -That last sentence is spoken, because as an adult--I've never met so many people that are atheists/agnostics. There's something unique about my generation that seems quite willing to "give up the ghost," as it were.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Why religion is appealing

by dhw, Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 12:56 (5093 days ago) @ xeno6696

MATT: Who will take care of me when my wife and (future) kids are gone? The typical structure in America is such that, if you are religion-less, you are going to have a tough time.-I sincerely hope that Nature won't play such a dirty trick on you, but your observation and the appalling news clip you alerted us to on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ww1AilSJ3U
only increase one's feeling that we live in a mad world. -I'd have thought religion was appealing for a wide variety of reasons. May I add a few suggestions (in no particular order):
1)	Fear of death
2)	Fear of isolation 
3)	Fear of purposelessness
4)	The need for hope and comfort in the face of suffering
5)	The need for love
6)	The need for authority
7)	The need to belong to a group (not quite the same as (2) because many people pray alone)
8)	The need for mysteries to be explained
9)	The power of stories
10)	The inability of science to explain fundamentals
11)	The possibility that there is more to existence than the material world as we know 
 it
12)	The possibility that religion may contain truth -But I haven't included our being "programmed" to be religious. The vast variety of beliefs suggests to me that it's a matter of culture not instinct, but who knows?

Why religion is appealing

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 13:19 (5093 days ago) @ dhw

While I would agree that the 'flavor' of religion is a matter of culture, I tend to think that the idea of a UI is nearly instinctive. If not the actual belief in, than at the least the speculation about.

Why religion is appealing

by dhw, Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 13:35 (5093 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

TONY: While I would agree that the 'flavor' of religion is a matter of culture, I tend to think that the idea of a UI is nearly instinctive. If not the actual belief in, than at the least the speculation about.-It gives me a nice warm feeling to think that we are logged on at the same time, grappling with the same questions. It's almost like being in a religious community!-Briefly - as I have to go out in a few minutes - I'm not too sure about something being "nearly" instinctive. If it's really programmed, why the "nearly"? But more to the point, I do think it's natural that we should speculate about matters that religion deals with. Children ask the darnedest questions. But I don't think the religious answer to their questions is instinctive. I'd say we are instinctive philosophers but not instinctive worshippers.-See you tomorrow!

Why religion is appealing

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 14:21 (5093 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Alert alert!! Matt's mask is about to come off....-> While I would agree that the 'flavor' of religion is a matter of culture, I tend to think that the idea of a UI is nearly instinctive. If not the actual belief in, than at the least the speculation about.-I think that this is an untenable position as from the time weare born, we absorb the surrounding culture of our parents and the community we live in. I tend to the opposite hypothesis, that modern man would never conceive of a deity without cultural and social pressure. To date I find no practical need for religion beyond my aforementioned observation of American institutions.-I must also point out that what is universal is pondering about existence. For me, my great pondering isn't that, because I already know the question is insoluable. It's how to cope in a world of religious people during a time when the notion is dying. -To be more specific, since I can't pin the meaning of my existence on a creator, how do I create that meaning for myself--without alienating the religious people I grew up with and live around.
I know this might not make sense, but for me I have long ago relegated a UI to the permanently unknowable file; i still find the thought alien and disturbing and honestly wish I could live in a world that did not treat the question with such seriousness. It's entertaining but I think it misguided for the reason of its insolubility.-I study religion because it has guided man, and has its place in the history of human civilization.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Why religion is appealing

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 14:03 (5093 days ago) @ dhw

Dhw,
The clip is properly attributed to Satyansh, and I hope as you do that in the long run things work out.-I would like to explore the idea you proposed about humans being programmed for religion. They have demonstrated that there is a part of the human brain, and for people who suffer a particular form of epilepsy--they are compelled to worship, regardless of their religion. This religious center is hyperactive.-I ponder this often--and for the public that doesn't come here all the time, and happens upon these words: please keep an open mind! Could it be that those of us comfortably without religion have the opposite of this condition and this part of our brains is atrophied in comparison? Most of humanity seems to have no trouble with religion.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Why religion is appealing

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 14:33 (5093 days ago) @ xeno6696

Dhw,
> The clip is properly attributed to Satyansh, and I hope as you do that in the long run things work out.
> 
> I would like to explore the idea you proposed about humans being programmed for religion. They have demonstrated that there is a part of the human brain, and for people who suffer a particular form of epilepsy--they are compelled to worship, regardless of their religion. This religious center is hyperactive.-
The interpretation of the effect of the 'religion area' in the temporal lobe, the 'God module' is different than your statement. The epileptic attacks cause a religious 'experience', which doesn't automatically send them rushing off to church.

Why religion is appealing

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 14:47 (5093 days ago) @ David Turell

Dhw,
> > The clip is properly attributed to Satyansh, and I hope as you do that in the long run things work out.
> > 
> > I would like to explore the idea you proposed about humans being programmed for religion. They have demonstrated that there is a part of the human brain, and for people who suffer a particular form of epilepsy--they are compelled to worship, regardless of their religion. This religious center is hyperactive.
> 
> 
> The interpretation of the effect of the 'religion area' in the temporal lobe, the 'God module' is different than your statement. The epileptic attacks cause a religious 'experience', which doesn't automatically send them rushing off to church.-Except that all of those affected in Ramachandran's study all identified themselves as 'deeply religious.'

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Why religion is appealing

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 17:08 (5093 days ago) @ xeno6696


> > 
> > The interpretation of the effect of the 'religion area' in the temporal lobe, the 'God module' is different than your statement. The epileptic attacks cause a religious 'experience', which doesn't automatically send them rushing off to church.
> 
> Except that all of those affected in Ramachandran's study all identified themselves as 'deeply religious.'-That is true

Why religion is appealing

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 14:18 (5092 days ago) @ David Turell

Dhw,
> > The clip is properly attributed to Satyansh, and I hope as you do that in the long run things work out.
> > 
> > I would like to explore the idea you proposed about humans being programmed for religion. They have demonstrated that there is a part of the human brain, and for people who suffer a particular form of epilepsy--they are compelled to worship, regardless of their religion. This religious center is hyperactive.
> 
> 
> The interpretation of the effect of the 'religion area' in the temporal lobe, the 'God module' is different than your statement. The epileptic attacks cause a religious 'experience', which doesn't automatically send them rushing off to church.-I was puzzled yesterday at your comment here; I think you're attacking my usage of the word 'worship.' Having never had a 'religious experience' I can only venture to geuss, but my point here was to draw the connection that people who claim to regularly experience these experiences invariably identify themselves as very religious, thus they worship regularly; Whereas the word 'worship' for me is a verb that can be done by onesself wherever they happen to be.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Why religion is appealing

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 15:04 (5092 days ago) @ xeno6696


> I was puzzled yesterday at your comment here; I think you're attacking my usage of the word 'worship.' Having never had a 'religious experience' I can only venture to geuss, but my point here was to draw the connection that people who claim to regularly experience these experiences invariably identify themselves as very religious, thus they worship regularly; Whereas the word 'worship' for me is a verb that can be done by onesself wherever they happen to be.-I guess it is word confusion. I pray in private and worship in Temple, the latter not in 5 years. After my son died, I had no one to go with, as I don't have a membership. Jeews are strange.

Why religion is appealing

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, December 19, 2010, 16:50 (5088 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by unknown, Sunday, December 19, 2010, 17:00

A completely different take-http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php?categoryid=37&blogid=21-> After my son died, I had no one to go with
Hi David - my deepest sympathies-I found this closing remark of Joseph Campbell (In A Hero with a Thousand Faces) strangely comforting, a little while after my son died.
> It is not society that is to guide and save the creative hero, but precisely the reverse. And so every one of us shares the supreme ordeal - carries the cross of the redeemer - not in the bright moments of his tribe's great victories, but in the silences of his personal despair.

Why religion is appealing

by David Turell @, Sunday, December 19, 2010, 17:37 (5088 days ago) @ romansh

A completely different take
> 
> http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php?categoryid=37&blogid=21
> 
> > After my son died, I had no one to go with
> Hi David - my deepest sympathies
> 
> I found this closing remark of Joseph Campbell (In A Hero with a Thousand Faces) strangely comforting, a little while after my son died.
> > It is not society that is to guide and save the creative hero, but precisely the reverse. And so every one of us shares the supreme ordeal - carries the cross of the redeemer - not in the bright moments of his tribe's great victories, but in the silences of his personal despair.-Thank you. It fits.

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