Questions of Light and Space (Introduction)

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Saturday, October 09, 2010, 09:37 (5137 days ago)

Recently, after watching a documentary on Einstein, I was puzzled by what at first seemed to be a very basic question. So, I asked a physicist:-> QUESTION: 
>I was watching a documentary on Einstein, and contemplating his theory of relativity(and the recent debates on the speed of light being constant) and came up with a question, which while I am sure it is non-sense, still begs to be asked. Has/Can the speed of light in a vacuum, free of electromagnetic/gravitational anomalies ever been measured by two items that are truly at rest? This would seem, by its nature, to have to occur in space, with two items that are not moving with our solar system relative to the universe. It would also seem to need to occur between two man made items since all other objects in the universe are inherently in motion. Feel free to correct me if my assumptions on the requirement of the experiment are wrong. It would seem, though, that this would be the ultimate test of the speed of light being constant.
>
>ANSWER:
>Your whole idea does not hold water for one simple reason�there is no such thing as "truly at rest". (See earlier answer.) There is something called an inertial frame of reference where the laws of physics as we know them are true (things like Maxwell's equations, Newtonian mechanics, thermodynamics, etc.). Any other frame of reference which moves with constant velocity with respect to that one is also an inertial frame of reference, the laws of physics are exactly the same. There is therefore no experiment you can perform which distinguishes any of these as the "truly at rest" frame. The "ultimate test" of the constancy of the speed of light is that special relativity, for which that constancy is the cornerstone, works perfectly. Nobody feels any need to further test this; see FAQ page for more on why the speed of light must be the same to all observers.-
Now right off the bat, a couple of parts of his answer struck me as rather odd. ->There is therefore no experiment you can perform which distinguishes any of these as the "truly at rest" frame.-Working with applied geology and geophysics in surveying, there is something about this answer that just seems plain wrong. When you design a survey, you have to determine an origin. From that origin, you can extend your X,Y,Z axis as far as you like, in which ever direction you like. Without this origin, nothing makes sense mathematically. In a universe that is (supposedly) expanding, there would by necessity need to be a central point. This point could be in fact determined using standard surveying tricks coupled with physics. Basically, you would define the number of axis that you wished to use to make your coordinate system. For simplicities sake, I will use 3 for this discussion, the standard X,Y,Z. If you measure the time it takes for readings from the CMRB to reach a given point, then work backwards to a point where the time from CMRB X+,Y+,Z+ = X-,Y-,Z- you should have origin=X,Y,Z =0 which gives you a universal frame of reference. At that point, it no longer matters if the universe is or is not expanding, as any expansion would happen at the outer edges of your grid. -From this point, you would be able to determine a single 'resting' frame of reference by which to measure all other movement in the universe. By setting your test points static in reference to that point, you have created a true resting frame of reference in which you could perform the proposed experiment.->The "ultimate test" of the constancy of the speed of light is that special relativity, for which that constancy is the cornerstone, works perfectly. Nobody feels any need to further test this-The theory of GR and SR are still theory, not fact, and thus deserve to be tested. They do not work perfectly, as is more than exemplified by the satellite clocks, whose timing errors come from absolute velocity, not relativistic motion.

Questions of Light and Space

by David Turell @, Saturday, October 09, 2010, 14:45 (5136 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

If you measure the time it takes for readings from the CMRB to reach a given point, then work backwards to a point where the time from CMRB X+,Y+,Z+ = X-,Y-,Z- you should have origin=X,Y,Z =0 which gives you a universal frame of reference. At that point, it no longer matters if the universe is or is not expanding, as any expansion would happen at the outer edges of your grid. 
> 
> From this point, you would be able to determine a single 'resting' frame of reference by which to measure all other movement in the universe. By setting your test points static in reference to that point, you have created a true resting frame of reference in which you could perform the proposed experiment.-I know your theory re' surveying on a rigid Earth is true, but in space even time is relative, space is curved, and nothing is resting. I don't see how you will have a 'resting' point

Questions of Light and Space

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Saturday, October 09, 2010, 15:35 (5136 days ago) @ David Turell

Think of it like an inflating balloon(or a balloon that is inflated but is assumed to be expanding further). In the center of that balloon, you will have a point that is coordinately the center. If the balloon expands further, you can expand the grid in that direction, likewise if it shrinks, all the while leaving your origin in a single spatial location.

Questions of Light and Space

by David Turell @, Saturday, October 09, 2010, 16:34 (5136 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Think of it like an inflating balloon(or a balloon that is inflated but is assumed to be expanding further). In the center of that balloon, you will have a point that is coordinately the center. If the balloon expands further, you can expand the grid in that direction, likewise if it shrinks, all the while leaving your origin in a single spatial location.-If the balloon is moving in space, its center is moving. Your theory works if you use the Earth, its whole volume, or its surfaace, but not space.

Questions of Light and Space

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Saturday, October 09, 2010, 16:46 (5136 days ago) @ David Turell

The balloon analogy would work regardless of where the balloon is, because you would be constantly referencing the 'walls' of the balloon to determine the center point. Even if the balloon is constantly expanding in every direction the rate of expansion along any given axis should be consistent, even if only for that axis. If you can measure the rate of change you can work your way to a common midpoint-
Edit:-The experiment does not rely on any celestial body other than the CMBR, which can be measured and mapped. If it can be measured and mapped, then a midpoint can be found. EVEN IF that mid-point is incorrect, it will be absolutely vital for this to be done prior to mankind ever having a hope of traveling outside of the solar system.(Even if that is a century down the road)

Questions of Light and Space

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Saturday, October 09, 2010, 17:34 (5136 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Your error here is in assuming that the geometry of the universe is Euclidean. For surveying purposes on limited areas on Earth Euclidean geometry is an adequate approximation. Out in space the Geometry of Einsteinian General Relativity applies. In this the "straight lines" of Euclid do not exist. The paths taken by light rays depend on the distribution of masses in space locally. The "bending" of light round the sun is well known. -Here is the wikipedia article on use of relativity in the global positioning system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Relativity

--
GPJ

Questions of Light and Space

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Saturday, October 09, 2010, 19:21 (5136 days ago) @ George Jelliss

George, -Let me start by saying welcome back! I hope to see you around more.-As to the thread here, there is a link in my first post regarding the fact that satellite clocks are NOT due to general or special relativity as suggested in the link you provided.-From Physicsforums.com:-Hi everybody-In his paper - "The Confrontation between General Relativity and
Experiment: A 1998 Update" - http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9811036
Clifford M. Will wrote on page 12 that
the Global Positioning System (GPS) provides absolute
accuracies of around 15 m (even better in its military mode)
anywhere on Earth, which corresponds to 50 nanoseconds in
time accuracy at all times. Yet the difference in rate between
satellite and ground clocks as a result of special and general
relativistic effects is a whopping 40 microseconds per day
(60micros. from the gravitational redshift, and -20micros. from
time dilation). If these effects were not accurately accounted
for, GPS would fail to function at its stated accuracy.-This seems to indicate that the GPS clocks are really affected by
motion. However, in their book "Spacetime Physics - Introduction to
Special Relativity" (W. H. Freeman and Company - 1992) Edwin F.
Taylor and John Archibald Wheeler write on page 77:
We conclude that free-float motion does not affect the
structure or operation of clocks.-I'm not sure what to believe now. Does motion affect the operation of
clocks or not? Can anybody enlighten me on this?-Thanks,-Andrew A. Harland-
This is a clear case of the data not supporting the theory.-
As for light bending because of gravitation pull etc:-If it is as you say, then all data on the CMBR is completely invalid and totally useless as any form of empirical evidence because their can be no good evidence as to where the energy originated from. Either we can measure and map it, or we can not. Either physicist are guilty of gross misrepresentation of their data, or the theory outlined above is possible. Either they are able to detect it accurately enough to determine that it is moving away from us at ' 3x the speed of light in every direction' as they claim, or they are misrepresenting their actual findings. It is a simple case of 'You can not have your cake and then say it is impossible to bake said cake or write a recipe.'

Questions of Light and Space

by David Turell @, Saturday, October 09, 2010, 19:38 (5136 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Either physicist are guilty of gross misrepresentation of their data, or the theory outlined above is possible. Either they are able to detect it accurately enough to determine that it is moving away from us at ' 3x the speed of light in every direction' as they claim, or they are misrepresenting their actual findings. It is a simple case of 'You can not have your cake and then say it is impossible to bake said cake or write a recipe.'-Same problem: the CMBR is moving away in three dimensions with curved space time inbetween. The cosmologists are not cheating. General relativity is general relativity, and George knows his math.

Questions of Light and Space

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Sunday, October 10, 2010, 04:48 (5136 days ago) @ David Turell

I've seen some of George's math and have no doubts as to his mathematical prowess. The point is, if physicist are able to determine that space is expanding in three dimensions with curved space time in between, as they claim, then they must have a way of accounting for the curvature of said space time. If they do not, then they can not say that space is expanding in three dimensions with curved space time in between. -This is what strikes me as the fundamental flaw in the argument. Either they can account for it, and thus their assertions about expanding space are true, or they can not account for it and their assertions about expanding space are, while perhaps true, based on unprovable assumptions.

Questions of Light and Space

by David Turell @, Sunday, October 10, 2010, 05:09 (5136 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

I've seen some of George's math and have no doubts as to his mathematical prowess. The point is, if physicist are able to determine that space is expanding in three dimensions with curved space time in between, as they claim, then they must have a way of accounting for the curvature of said space time. If they do not, then they can not say that space is expanding in three dimensions with curved space time in between. 
> 
> This is what strikes me as the fundamental flaw in the argument. Either they can account for it, and thus their assertions about expanding space are true, or they can not account for it and their assertions about expanding space are, while perhaps true, based on unprovable assumptions.-No. The curvature is based on objects in the way such as galaxy lensing which is used all the time to make observations that would otherwise not be available. Mass bends space and light. In looking at the CBWR 300,000 years after the Big Bang, there are all sorts of bodies between us and the point you want to fix. So, over that distance, there would be left-handed and right-handed curves that need not cancel out. One would hae to account for each one to have a valid fixed point, which would be moving all the time. George is right. Euclidian geometry doesn't work out there. Everyone accepts that, and you need to.

Questions of Light and Space

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Sunday, October 10, 2010, 05:30 (5136 days ago) @ David Turell

No. The curvature is based on objects in the way such as galaxy lensing which is used all the time to make observations that would otherwise not be available. Mass bends space and light. In looking at the CBWR 300,000 years after the Big Bang, there are all sorts of bodies between us and the point you want to fix. So, over that distance, there would be left-handed and right-handed curves that need not cancel out. One would have to account for each one to have a valid fixed point, which would be moving all the time. George is right. Euclidean geometry doesn't work out there. Everyone accepts that, and you need to.-Yes, you have to take curvature, rate of change, and other variables into account when mapping in space. There was NEVER any argument about that. Hell, even here on earth when mapping areas many kilometers beneath the sea floor we have to take into account density, temperature, pressure, salinity, the makeup of different geological layers, porosity, reflective etc etc etc. Please don't be insulting to my intelligence. My point is that they either CAN account for it, or they CAN'T. Secondly, the term 'Euclidean' geometry has not once escaped my lips in this conversation, nor was it even implied other than in the context of defining a spatial origin from which to start. Even when kicking this idea around over coffee I never dreamed that it would be a simple straight line measurement. There IS limited linear movement in space, but that has nothing to do really with the matter of defining a set of spatial coordinates.

Questions of Light and Space

by David Turell @, Sunday, October 10, 2010, 15:00 (5135 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Please don't be insulting to my intelligence. My point is that they either CAN account for it, or they CAN'T. Secondly, the term 'Euclidean' geometry has not once escaped my lips in this conversation, nor was it even implied other than in the context of defining a spatial origin from which to start. Even when kicking this idea around over coffee I never dreamed that it would be a simple straight line measurement. There IS limited linear movement in space, but that has nothing to do really with the matter of defining a set of spatial coordinates.-I'm not insulting your intelligence. That you are very intellignt is quite clear. And it was George who brought up Euclidean geometry, and at that point you did not object to his comment. We are both fishing around for an answer to your issue because neither of us is an astrophysicist or cosmologist, so we are exchanging opinions. My guess is they can't for the reasons I gave. -Where you and I seem to be in strong agreement is science is in a mess right now because of the strong and improper peer review system that has developed and seems to control scientific opinion as either politically correct or not. Further that directly relates to the slush funds of money governments dole out bureaucratally in enormous amounts with implied demands to produce and produce correctly. Climategate proved that. Michael Mann's hockey stick is the best example. And his lab budget recently was $3.5 million a year!

Questions of Light and Space

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Sunday, October 10, 2010, 15:47 (5135 days ago) @ David Turell

Sorry David. I get frustrated easily because I don't really speak scientific lingo and do not know how to express the idea I have in terms that is easily understood and clear. Yes, the scientific community is in a mess, mostly of their own creation.-I seem to keep running into brick walls where science claims to have done something and then says it can not be done, or the foundation which they have built their leaning tower was never adequately proven(Hence the need for constant patchwork to make the theories fit the data, or exclusions to make the data fit the theory). -
George,-Excluding Euclidean geometry from the conversation, which has no place in it anyway, can you explain how they are able to say that they have 'mapped' the CMBR and yet can not account for gravitational lensing and other effects enough to perform the experiment?-Additionally, why, if we are able to map the background radiation, would it be impossible to create an origin and subsequent matrix for mapping the universe?

Questions of Light and Space

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Monday, October 11, 2010, 21:01 (5134 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

I'm only coming back here very occasionally so don't count on any quick replies.-In the original post B-M wrote: "If you measure the time it takes for readings from the CMRB to reach a given point, then work backwards to a point where the time from CMRB X+,Y+,Z+ = X-,Y-,Z- you should have origin=X,Y,Z =0 which gives you a universal frame of reference."-This appears to be a misunderstanding of what the CMBR is. We are looking back in time to see microwave radiation emitted around 13.7 billion years ago. This should be more or less the same no matter where you are in the universe.-http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_tests_cmb.html-To paraphrase: The CMBR fills the sky and can be detected everywhere we look. If we could see microwaves, the entire sky would glow with a brightness that was astonishingly uniform in every direction.-B-M appears to think the Background is the "edge" of a "present" spherical three-dimensional universe within which we are situated.

--
GPJ

Questions of Light and Space

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 05:22 (5134 days ago) @ George Jelliss

I'm only coming back here very occasionally so don't count on any quick replies.
> 
Well, I still hope to see you around more :)-> In the original post B-M wrote: "If you measure the time it takes for readings from the CMRB to reach a given point, then work backwards to a point where the time from CMRB X+,Y+,Z+ = X-,Y-,Z- you should have origin=X,Y,Z =0 which gives you a universal frame of reference."
> 
> This appears to be a misunderstanding of what the CMBR is. We are looking back in time to see microwave radiation emitted around 13.7 billion years ago. This should be more or less the same no matter where you are in the universe.
> 
> http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_tests_cmb.html
> 
> To paraphrase: The CMBR fills the sky and can be detected everywhere we look. If we could see microwaves, the entire sky would glow with a brightness that was astonishingly uniform in every direction.
> 
> B-M appears to think the Background is the "edge" of a "present" spherical three-dimensional universe within which we are situated.-For all practical purposes, time is simply another axis along which we measure, 4 dimensions instead of 3. Additionally, time, much like space, can be compensated for mathematically, and in fact must be accounted for in some fashion all but the simplest of equations. No, the universe is not(most likely) a sphere, ellipsoidal perhaps, but not likely spherical. However, even if it were tetrahedral or a parallelogram or any other deformation you can conceive of, the concept could still work, even if it required measurements along more axis. And while we are looking back in time, we are also looking across distance. Can you at least concede that the universe, based on the fact that we can see the CMBR throughout the whole of the sky, must be limited(even if it is expanding), and if it is limited, it will contain properties such as volume and boundaries?

Questions of Light and Space

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 12:05 (5127 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Look for FLRW model:-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_Universe-&quot;The curvature of space is a mathematical description of whether or not the Pythagorean theorem is valid for spatial coordinates. In the latter case, it provides an alternative formula for expressing local relationships between distances:- * If the curvature is zero, then &#206;&#169; = 1, and the Pythagorean theorem is correct.&#13;&#10; * If &#206;&#169; > 1, there is positive curvature, and&#13;&#10; * if &#206;&#169; < 1 there is negative curvature;-in either of these cases, the Pythagorean theorem is invalid (but discrepancies are only detectable in triangles whose sides&apos; lengths are of cosmological scale).-If you measure the circumferences of circles of steadily larger diameters and divide the former by the latter, all three geometries give the value &#207;&#128; for small enough diameters but the ratio departs from &#207;&#128; for larger diameters unless &#206;&#169; = 1:- * For &#206;&#169; > 1 (the sphere, see diagram) the ratio falls below &#207;&#128;: indeed, a great circle on a sphere has circumference only twice its diameter.&#13;&#10; * For &#206;&#169; < 1 the ratio rises above &#207;&#128;.-Astronomical measurements of both matter-energy density of the universe and spacetime intervals using supernova events constrain the spatial curvature to be very close to zero, although they do not constrain its sign. This means that although the local geometries of spacetime are generated by the theory of relativity based on spacetime intervals, we can approximate 3-space by the familiar Euclidean geometry.&quot;-WMAP suggests that the universe is flat--observation is within 2% of what we would expect a flat universe to look like. There are a few other geometries suggested that also map to this, but they are more complex, and therefore not favorable candidates.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Questions of Light and Space

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 11:52 (5127 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

No. The curvature is based on objects in the way such as galaxy lensing which is used all the time to make observations that would otherwise not be available. Mass bends space and light. In looking at the CBWR 300,000 years after the Big Bang, there are all sorts of bodies between us and the point you want to fix. So, over that distance, there would be left-handed and right-handed curves that need not cancel out. One would have to account for each one to have a valid fixed point, which would be moving all the time. George is right. Euclidean geometry doesn&apos;t work out there. Everyone accepts that, and you need to.&#13;&#10;> &#13;&#10;> Yes, you have to take curvature, rate of change, and other variables into account when mapping in space. There was NEVER any argument about that. Hell, even here on earth when mapping areas many kilometers beneath the sea floor we have to take into account density, temperature, pressure, salinity, the makeup of different geological layers, porosity, reflective etc etc etc. Please don&apos;t be insulting to my intelligence. My point is that they either CAN account for it, or they CAN&apos;T. Secondly, the term &apos;Euclidean&apos; geometry has not once escaped my lips in this conversation, nor was it even implied other than in the context of defining a spatial origin from which to start. Even when kicking this idea around over coffee I never dreamed that it would be a simple straight line measurement. There IS limited linear movement in space, but that has nothing to do really with the matter of defining a set of spatial coordinates.-Yes it does: you would need to define a start point and end point, therefore a discussion of spatial coordinates is essential, as it would need to be accurate.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Questions of Light and Space

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 11:49 (5127 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

I&apos;ve seen some of George&apos;s math and have no doubts as to his mathematical prowess. The point is, if physicist are able to determine that space is expanding in three dimensions with curved space time in between, as they claim, then they must have a way of accounting for the curvature of said space time. If they do not, then they can not say that space is expanding in three dimensions with curved space time in between. &#13;&#10;> &#13;&#10;> This is what strikes me as the fundamental flaw in the argument. Either they can account for it, and thus their assertions about expanding space are true, or they can not account for it and their assertions about expanding space are, while perhaps true, based on unprovable assumptions.-They account for it using math... I don&apos;t see where your argument is. The picture of the background that everyone has looked at is taken via the equivalent of an absolutely gigantic fishlens camera and turned into the image you&apos;ll see all over google images if you search for it. -It&apos;s accounted for.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Questions of Light and Space

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 07:02 (5134 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

If space is expanding, and everything is moving away from everything else at an ever increasing speed as described here(Subheading observational evidence), how can Nebula collide?

Questions of Light and Space

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 11:54 (5134 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Woody Allen has the answer to this one!-Is Brooklyn Expanding?&#13;&#10;In Annie Hall, the movie character played by the young Woody Allen explains to his doctor and mother why he can&apos;t do his homework. &quot;The universe is expanding. The universe is everything, and if it&apos;s expanding, someday it will break apart and that would be the end of everything!&quot; But his mother knows better: &quot;You&apos;re here in Brooklyn. Brooklyn is not expanding!&quot;-His mother is right. Brooklyn is not expanding. People often assume that as space expands, everything in it expands as well. But this is not true. Expansion by itself--that is, a coasting expansion neither accelerating nor decelerating--produces no force. Photon wavelengths expand with the universe because, unlike atoms and cities, photons are not coherent objects whose size has been set by a compromise among forces. A changing rate of expansion does add a new force to the mix, but even this new force does not make objects expand or contract.-For example, if gravity got stronger, your spinal cord would compress until the electrons in your vertebrae reached a new equilibrium slightly closer together. You would be a shorter person, but you would not continue to shrink. In the same way, if we lived in a universe dominated by the attractive force of gravity, as most cosmologists thought until a few years ago, the expansion would decelerate, putting a gentle squeeze on bodies in the universe, making them reach a smaller equilibrium size. Having done so, they would not keep shrinking.-In fact, in our universe the expansion is accelerating, and that exerts a gentle outward force on bodies. Consequently, bound objects are slightly larger than they would be in a nonaccelerating universe, because the equilibrium among forces is reached at a slightly larger size. At Earth&apos;s surface, the outward acceleration away from the planet&apos;s center equals a tiny fraction (10^-30) of the normal inward gravitational acceleration. If this acceleration is constant, it does not make Earth expand; rather the planet simply settles into a static equilibrium size slightly larger than the size it would have attained.-This reasoning changes if acceleration is not constant, as some cosmologists have speculated. If the acceleration itself increased, it could eventually grow strong enough to tear apart all structures, leading to a &quot;big rip.&quot; But this rip would occur not because of expansion or acceleration per se but because of an accelerating acceleration. -The above is from:&#13;&#10;http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=misconceptions-about-the-2005-03&page=5

--
GPJ

Questions of Light and Space

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 13:26 (5133 days ago) @ George Jelliss

Interesting article George, but I fail to see the relevance. The question was not about object expansion, but about relative positions of interstellar objects(Though I could conceivably see universal expansion leading to the expansion of the area of a gas cloud, it would not expand the molecules that form it, just the space between). The physics model on the wiki page I linked(which I had seen elsewhere in a lecture) clearly says that everything in the universe should be moving away from each other, not moving into a collision course at some point. So, ignore the shrinking/expanding celestial body thing for now (though that is interesting) and lets figure out how an interstellar body that should be moving ever further away from all surrounding interstellar bodies could be lining up for a collision course.

Questions of Light and Space

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 12:11 (5127 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Interesting article George, but I fail to see the relevance. The question was not about object expansion, but about relative positions of interstellar objects(Though I could conceivably see universal expansion leading to the expansion of the area of a gas cloud, it would not expand the molecules that form it, just the space between). The physics model on the wiki page I linked(which I had seen elsewhere in a lecture) clearly says that everything in the universe should be moving away from each other, not moving into a collision course at some point. So, ignore the shrinking/expanding celestial body thing for now (though that is interesting) and lets figure out how an interstellar body that should be moving ever further away from all surrounding interstellar bodies could be lining up for a collision course.-What article are you referencing here that is asking this question? -Or are you talking about how we&apos;re colliding with Andromeda? If it&apos;s that, that&apos;s simply gravity doing its job. -http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-can-galaxies-collide

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Questions of Light and Space

by David Turell @, Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 16:52 (5133 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

If space is expanding, and everything is moving away from everything else at an ever increasing speed as described here(Subheading observational evidence), how can Nebula collide?-The Milky Way and Andromeda are approaching each other and will meet in 2 billion years. Other collisions of galaxies are seen all the time . It has to do with local movement and gravity. The universe is so vast that there are local events and overall uniform events. Great walls of galaxies and great spaces, but still considered uniform. Nebula is the old word for galaxy.

Questions of Light and Space

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 20:18 (5133 days ago) @ David Turell

If space is expanding, and everything is moving away from everything else at an ever increasing speed as described here(Subheading observational evidence), how can Nebula collide?&#13;&#10;> &#13;&#10;> The Milky Way and Andromeda are approaching each other and will meet in 2 billion years. Other collisions of galaxies are seen all the time . It has to do with local movement and gravity. The universe is so vast that there are local events and overall uniform events. Great walls of galaxies and great spaces, but still considered uniform. Nebula is the old word for galaxy.-> > If space is expanding, and everything is moving away from everything else at an ever increasing speed as described here(Subheading observational evidence), how can Nebula collide?&#13;&#10;> &#13;&#10;> The Milky Way and Andromeda are approaching each other and will meet in 2 billion years. Other collisions of galaxies are seen all the time . It has to do with local movement and gravity. The universe is so vast that there are local events and overall uniform events. Great walls of galaxies and great spaces, but still considered uniform. Nebula is the old word for galaxy.-&#13;&#10;We know that it has happened, and will happen again, the question is why and how. Gravity is a weak force. In fact, it is the weakest of the four fundamental forces. But, are there four fundamental forces, or three? Being that all matter is made up of atoms with positive/negative charges, it is very possible that gravity is a subset of electromagnetism. Einstein died working on that unified theory and many others have tried failed. -[image]-&#13;&#10;&quot;The gravitational force is extremely weak compared with other fundamental forces. For example, the gravitational force between an electron and proton 1 meter apart is approximately 10^&#226;&#136;&apos;67 newtons, while the electromagnetic force between the same two particles is approximately 10^&#226;&#136;&apos;28 newtons. Both these forces are weak when compared with the forces we are able to experience directly, but the electromagnetic force in this example is some 39 orders of magnitude (i.e. 1039) greater than the force of gravity &#226;&#128;&#148; roughly the same ratio as the mass of the Sun compared to a microgram mass.&quot;-The point is, gravity could not have done what is being claimed of it, especially with objects moving at exceptionally high rates of speed, with exponentially increasing distance between them. It simply would not have the force to overcome their inertia.

Questions of Light and Space

by David Turell @, Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 22:16 (5133 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

&#13;&#10;> The point is, gravity could not have done what is being claimed of it, especially with objects moving at exceptionally high rates of speed, with exponentially increasing distance between them. It simply would not have the force to overcome their inertia.-The gravity of the sun and the planets cannot be as weak as you think. We have satelites around the Earth. We slingshot some of our space probes around planets or the sun. We can spot planets around nearby stars by the way the star wobbles. The sun is holding all the solar system planets in orbit. Comets come back and forth from around the sun.

Questions of Light and Space

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Wednesday, October 13, 2010, 05:41 (5133 days ago) @ David Turell

&#13;&#10;> The gravity of the sun and the planets cannot be as weak as you think. We have satelites around the Earth. We slingshot some of our space probes around planets or the sun. We can spot planets around nearby stars by the way the star wobbles. The sun is holding all the solar system planets in orbit. Comets come back and forth from around the sun.-First you are talking about tremendous mass differences between dense objects with low relative velocity. If you tried to slingshot objects of equal mass, that would not work at all, if you tried with objects consisting of little, or widely separated mass, such as a gas nebula, you should see gas &apos;streamers&apos; breaking away from the cloud . -Secondly, I would be highly suspect of star &apos;wobble&apos; being a product of gravity. Stars being primarily plasma, are made up of negatively charged particles, and thus have both attractive and repulsive properties for positive and negative magnetic fields respectively. Considering that these fields occur at the atomic level as well, they could account for far more than we currently know.-(Sorry this is a little rushed. Today is crew change! Woohoo... going home back to the U.S. so I won&apos;t be online for a couple of days while traveling)

Questions of Light and Space

by David Turell @, Wednesday, October 13, 2010, 06:14 (5133 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

&#13;&#10;> Secondly, I would be highly suspect of star &apos;wobble&apos; being a product of gravity. Stars being primarily plasma, are made up of negatively charged particles, and thus have both attractive and repulsive properties for positive and negative magnetic fields respectively.-This is how the discoveries are reported. Argue with the astronomers. Congrats on heading home

Questions of Light and Space

by David Turell @, Friday, September 23, 2011, 05:59 (4788 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

There are new tentative findings that neutrinos may exceed the speed of light, or may not:-http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484

Questions of Light and Space

by David Turell @, Friday, September 23, 2011, 15:14 (4787 days ago) @ David Turell

&apos;New&apos; Speed of light needs conformation:-http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-09-scientists-stunned-sceptical-faster-than-light-particles.html

Questions of Light and Space

by dhw, Saturday, September 24, 2011, 17:19 (4786 days ago) @ David Turell

This sensational, revolutionary announcement (&quot;neutrinos may exceed the speed of light&quot;) has hit the headlines all over the world. It seems, though, that every week the foundations of science are being rocked by new discoveries that may or may not be true. (There was a spate of discoveries recently that would overturn all our previous notions of the evolution of humankind, if...) We outsiders have no way of knowing whether subsequent scientific scepticism is the result of greater expertise or the desire to protect reputation and lucrative grants, but I hope I will be forgiven for wishing that scientists would keep quiet about their sensational discoveries until they had actually verified them.

Questions of Light and Space

by David Turell @, Monday, September 26, 2011, 23:05 (4784 days ago) @ dhw

This sensational, revolutionary announcement (&quot;neutrinos may exceed the speed of light&quot;) has hit the headlines all over the world. It seems, though, that every week the foundations of science are being rocked by new discoveries that may or may not be true. (There was a spate of discoveries recently that would overturn all our previous notions of the evolution of humankind, if...) We outsiders have no way of knowing whether subsequent scientific scepticism is the result of greater expertise or the desire to protect reputation and lucrative grants, but I hope I will be forgiven for wishing that scientists would keep quiet about their sensational discoveries until they had actually verified them.-This latest discussion of the speed of neutrinos and the speed of light. Lots of skepticism.-http://procrustes.blogtownhall.com/2011/09/26/einstein,_neutrinos_and_time_travel.thtml

Questions of Light and Space

by David Turell @, Monday, October 03, 2011, 05:19 (4778 days ago) @ David Turell

More comments about super fast neutrinos. The first article pushes string membrane theory; the second says the first is nuts:-&#13;&#10;http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128322.900-lightspeed-neutrinos-point-to-new-physical-reality.html?full=true-http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=3996-Woit to the rescue. Anything to prove string theory: whew !!!

Questions of Light and Space

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 02:51 (5127 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Balance,-I&apos;m rather late to this discussion, but I think I can answer this question for you relatively quickly, although it shames me that your physicist friend did not discuss this:-Time is relative (via Einstein.) Space and time are also equal to each other. -Our universe is infinitely expanding; therefore as time grows, so does space. And, all things in it are moving---our earth, our sun, and our galaxy are all in motion; it is simply not possible to ever be completely still in order to satisfy that requirement of your experiment. You could be still in relation to the sun, but the influence of the Milky Way would exert its influence on your experiment. -If you wonder about this, look up &quot;gravitational lenses.&quot; Light cannot help but be influenced by gravity.-[EDIT]-You would have to be so distant... so remote... that no force anywhere could influence you. You would have to find a point somewhere in the universe where all gravitational forces cancel each other out... perhaps wherever our bang went big... and conduct your experiment there. But, even then your experiment would have error.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

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