New Miscellany (General)
I’m reluctant to devote whole threads to subjects which we shall only discuss very briefly, and so as you can see, I’m putting them under “New Miscellany”.
To David: please carry on with your own new headings, as usual. I’ll do the sorting.
LUCA
DAVID: The article provides a different estimate of LUCA age and size. The striking point is how quickly life appeared after the Earth formed. Strongly supports the concept of a designer at work.
dhw: 4.2 billion years is “inferred” and approximate. How do you and the authors know the length of time it normally takes for life to appear and complexify?
DAVID: Using mutation rates and times of obvious change in forms allows looking backward in time. Of course, the results are estimates.
And how do you and the authors know the length of time it normally takes for life to appear and complexify?
The brain: concept cells
I’m a bit reluctant to comment, as again I find parts of it difficult to understand, but I’m afraid the following made me laugh out loud:
QUOTE: "Concept cells could code for anything and everything, but they are not used for object recognition. They’re too slow for that: These cells fire after a delay of about 300 milliseconds. “It’s unclear why it takes so long,”
300 milliseconds = so long? I wonder how “long” it takes for cells to recognize objects. Ah well, it’s all relative, as Einstein might have said. Any idea how they measure such timings?
QUOTE: "It’s possible that these neurons can play different roles and take on different identities based on the task at hand,” Buffalo said. When it needs to be a concept cell for Jennifer Aniston, that’s what it is. When it needs to be a place cell to help you navigate toward the martini at the bar, it is a place cell. “That cell is like a Swiss Army knife,” Miller suggested.
I do like this. It suggests to me that cells are living, cognitive entities which can perform different activities and take on different roles according to different requirements. Very much in line with Shapiro, wouldn’t you say?
DAVID: very early tentative research into memory function. Identifying specific neuron function is amazing. Animals must have place neurons but not concept ones I assume.
Does that mean your dog doesn't recognize you?
New Miscellany
by David Turell 
, Wednesday, January 22, 2025, 18:57 (8 days ago) @ dhw
I’m reluctant to devote whole threads to subjects which we shall only discuss very briefly, and so as you can see, I’m putting them under “New Miscellany”.
To David: please carry on with your own new headings, as usual. I’ll do the sorting.LUCA
DAVID: Using mutation rates and times of obvious change in forms allows looking backward in time. Of course, the results are estimates.
dhw: And how do you and the authors know the length of time it normally takes for life to appear and complexify?
The molecular clock approach uses sheer estimates. Earliest life was quite complex as LUCA is described.
The brain: concept cellsI’m a bit reluctant to comment, as again I find parts of it difficult to understand, but I’m afraid the following made me laugh out loud:
QUOTE: "Concept cells could code for anything and everything, but they are not used for object recognition. They’re too slow for that: These cells fire after a delay of about 300 milliseconds. “It’s unclear why it takes so long,”
dhw: 300 milliseconds = so long? I wonder how “long” it takes for cells to recognize objects. Ah well, it’s all relative, as Einstein might have said. Any idea how they measure such timings?
The electrodes record any new activity in neurons. Article:
https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/science-saturday-understanding-the-speed-...
"Called the human connectome, this structural system of neural pathways develops as people age. A new study shows transmission speed among brain regions increases into early adulthood. Learning more about neuron transmission may improve the understanding of psychological disorders."
QUOTE: "It’s possible that these neurons can play different roles and take on different identities based on the task at hand,” Buffalo said. When it needs to be a concept cell for Jennifer Aniston, that’s what it is. When it needs to be a place cell to help you navigate toward the martini at the bar, it is a place cell. “That cell is like a Swiss Army knife,” Miller suggested.dhw: I do like this. It suggests to me that cells are living, cognitive entities which can perform different activities and take on different roles according to different requirements. Very much in line with Shapiro, wouldn’t you say?
DAVID: very early tentative research into memory function. Identifying specific neuron function is amazing. Animals must have place neurons but not concept ones I assume.
Does that mean your dog doesn't recognize you?
He sees me and reacts immediately.
New Miscellany
LUCA
(David changed the quote at the start of this post.)
QUOTE: The inferred age of LUCA […] suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: The striking point is how quickly life appeared after the Earth formed. Strongly supports the concept of a designer at work.
dhw: […] how do you and the authors know the length of time it normally takes for life to appear and complexify?
DAVID: The molecular clock approach uses sheer estimates. Earliest life was quite complex as LUCA is described.
And how does that tell you the length of time it normally takes for life to appear and complexify?
The brain: concept cells
QUOTE: "Concept cells could code for anything and everything, but they are not used for object recognition. They’re too slow for that: These cells fire after a delay of about 300 milliseconds. It’s unclear why it takes so long,”
dhw: 300 milliseconds = so long? I wonder how “long” it takes for cells to recognize objects. Ah well, it’s all relative, as Einstein might have said. Any idea how they measure such timings?
DAVID: The electrodes record any new activity in neurons. Article:
https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/science-saturday-understanding-the-speed-...
"Called the human connectome, this structural system of neural pathways develops as people age. A new study shows transmission speed among brain regions increases into early adulthood. Learning more about neuron transmission may improve the understanding of psychological disorders."
I asked how they were able to measure 300 milliseconds, and I found it laughable that this should be regarded as being slow.
QUOTE: "It’s possible that these neurons can play different roles and take on different identities based on the task at hand,” Buffalo said. When it needs to be a concept cell for Jennifer Aniston, that’s what it is. When it needs to be a place cell to help you navigate toward the martini at the bar, it is a place cell. “That cell is like a Swiss Army knife,” Miller suggested.
dhw: I do like this. It suggests to me that cells are living, cognitive entities which can perform different activities and take on different roles according to different requirements. Very much in line with Shapiro, wouldn’t you say?
You wouldn't say.
DAVID: very early tentative research into memory function. Identifying specific neuron function is amazing. Animals must have place neurons but not concept ones I assume.
dhw: Does that mean your dog doesn't recognize you?
DAVID: He sees me and reacts immediately.
So how does that mean he has no concept cells? And are you sure that his recognition is immediate, rather than taking 300 milliseconds?
New Miscellany
by David Turell , Thursday, January 23, 2025, 18:39 (7 days ago) @ dhw
LUCA
DAVID: The molecular clock approach uses sheer estimates. Earliest life was quite complex as LUCA is described.
dhw: And how does that tell you the length of time it normally takes for life to appear and complexify?
It doesn't. It tells when life appeared, not how long it took to develop.
The brain: concept cellsQUOTE: "It’s possible that these neurons can play different roles and take on different identities based on the task at hand,” Buffalo said. When it needs to be a concept cell for Jennifer Aniston, that’s what it is. When it needs to be a place cell to help you navigate toward the martini at the bar, it is a place cell. “That cell is like a Swiss Army knife,” Miller suggested.
dhw: I do like this. It suggests to me that cells are living, cognitive entities which can perform different activities and take on different roles according to different requirements. Very much in line with Shapiro, wouldn’t you say?
You wouldn't say.
No, I wouldn't say.
DAVID: very early tentative research into memory function. Identifying specific neuron function is amazing. Animals must have place neurons but not concept ones I assume.dhw: Does that mean your dog doesn't recognize you?
DAVID: He sees me and reacts immediately.
dhw: So how does that mean he has no concept cells? And are you sure that his recognition is immediate, rather than taking 300 milliseconds?
Perhaps slower
New Miscellany
LUCA
DAVID: The molecular clock approach uses sheer estimates. Earliest life was quite complex as LUCA is described.
dhw: And how does that tell you the length of time it normally takes for life to appear and complexify?
DAVID: It doesn't. It tells when life appeared, not how long it took to develop.
You have edited out the relevant comments that led to my question:
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: The striking point is how quickly life appeared after the Earth formed. Strongly supports the concept of a designer at work.
Now perhaps you will tell us how you and the author know how long life normally takes to appear.
The brain: concept cells
dhw: […] It suggests to me that cells are living, cognitive entities which can perform different activities and take on different roles according to different requirements. Very much in line with Shapiro, wouldn’t you say?
dhw: You wouldn't say.
DAVID: No, I wouldn't say.
To be continued…See later.
DAVID: very early tentative research into memory function. Identifying specific neuron function is amazing. Animals must have place neurons but not concept ones I assume.
dhw: Does that mean your dog doesn't recognize you?
DAVID: He sees me and reacts immediately.
dhw: So how does that mean he has no concept cells? And are you sure that his recognition is immediate, rather than taking 300 milliseconds?
DAVID: Perhaps slower.
Ah well, I don’t suppose your dog cares much whether he does or doesn’t have concept cells! Let’s go on to the next example of cellular intelligence:
T-cells help gut immunity
QUOTES: New research [..] shows that pathogen-fighting immune cells called tissue-resident memory CD8 T cells (TRM cells) go through a surprising transformation -- and relocation -- as they fight infections in the small intestine.
"Looking at small intestines after a viral infection, the scientists found that the gut releases chemical signals to instruct immune cells where to go and what to do.“
DAVID: these specialized T cells are under tight chemical controls to place them exactly where needed. The control proteins are yet to be delineated. Another pure example of design.
The whole article exemplifies the manner in which cells can transform themselves in response to different requirements, and cooperate with other cells within their community. Cells “instructing” other cells as and when necessary suggests to me (as it does to many experts in the field) that cells have the autonomous ability to absorb and process information and take their own decisions on how to use it. The possible origin of this form of intelligence is, of course, an open question, and I for one can quite understand the view that it would require a designer God to create such a mechanism.
New Miscellany
by David Turell , Friday, January 24, 2025, 21:07 (6 days ago) @ dhw
LUCA
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: The striking point is how quickly life appeared after the Earth formed. Strongly supports the concept of a designer at work.
dhw: Now perhaps you will tell us how you and the author know how long life normally takes to appear.
Impossible!!! We have evidence of first life, but it has an unknown starting point. we don't know how it started!!!
T-cells help gut immunity
QUOTES: New research [..] shows that pathogen-fighting immune cells called tissue-resident memory CD8 T cells (TRM cells) go through a surprising transformation -- and relocation -- as they fight infections in the small intestine.
"Looking at small intestines after a viral infection, the scientists found that the gut releases chemical signals to instruct immune cells where to go and what to do.“
DAVID: these specialized T cells are under tight chemical controls to place them exactly where needed. The control proteins are yet to be delineated. Another pure example of design.
dhw: The whole article exemplifies the manner in which cells can transform themselves in response to different requirements, and cooperate with other cells within their community. Cells “instructing” other cells as and when necessary suggests to me (as it does to many experts in the field) that cells have the autonomous ability to absorb and process information and take their own decisions on how to use it. The possible origin of this form of intelligence is, of course, an open question, and I for one can quite understand the view that it would require a designer God to create such a mechanism.
I agree
New Miscellany
LUCA
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: The striking point is how quickly life appeared after the Earth formed. Strongly supports the concept of a designer at work.
dhw: Now perhaps you will tell us how you and the author know how long life normally takes to appear.
DAVID: Impossible!!! We have evidence of first life, but it has an unknown starting point. we don't know how it started!!!
So you and the author have no possible grounds for telling us that life appeared surprisingly quickly (supporting the concept of design). This would only be a surprise if you knew how long life normally takes to appear! (Three exclamation marks if you like.)
T-cells help gut immunity
dhw: The whole article exemplifies the manner in which cells can transform themselves in response to different requirements, and cooperate with other cells within their community. Cells “instructing” other cells as and when necessary suggests to me (as it does to many experts in the field) that cells have the autonomous ability to absorb and process information and take their own decisions on how to use it. The possible origin of this form of intelligence is, of course, an open question, and I for one can quite understand the view that it would require a designer God to create such a mechanism.
DAVID: I agree.
This should be a red letter day, as you have hitherto been so resolutely opposed to the
concept of cellular intelligence. I’ll hold onto your agreement while it lasts.
New Miscellany
by David Turell , Saturday, January 25, 2025, 18:45 (5 days ago) @ dhw
LUCA
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: The striking point is how quickly life appeared after the Earth formed. Strongly supports the concept of a designer at work.
dhw: Now perhaps you will tell us how you and the author know how long life normally takes to appear.
DAVID: Impossible!!! We have evidence of first life, but it has an unknown starting point. we don't know how it started!!!
dhw: So you and the author have no possible grounds for telling us that life appeared surprisingly quickly (supporting the concept of design). This would only be a surprise if you knew how long life normally takes to appear! (Three exclamation marks if you like.)
You are in lala land. There are fossils of ancient life at 3.8 billion year ago and suggestive fossils at 4.1, with the Earth formed at 4.5. At 4.1 all of the necessary factors were in place for life to start as the fossils show. You are corrupted with the idea fossils have birthdays. How life starts is totally unknown. Where is unknown. When is unknown.
T-cells help gut immunitydhw: The whole article exemplifies the manner in which cells can transform themselves in response to different requirements, and cooperate with other cells within their community. Cells “instructing” other cells as and when necessary suggests to me (as it does to many experts in the field) that cells have the autonomous ability to absorb and process information and take their own decisions on how to use it. The possible origin of this form of intelligence is, of course, an open question, and I for one can quite understand the view that it would require a designer God to create such a mechanism.
DAVID: I agree.
This should be a red letter day, as you have hitherto been so resolutely opposed to the
concept of cellular intelligence. I’ll hold onto your agreement while it lasts.
I agreed to your final comment above now bolded as it covers your God designer conclusion. It explains all of the preceding discussion you offer.
New Miscellany
LUCA
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: The striking point is how quickly life appeared after the Earth formed. Strongly supports the concept of a designer at work.
dhw: Now perhaps you will tell us how you and the author know how long life normally takes to appear.
DAVID: Impossible!!! We have evidence of first life, but it has an unknown starting point. we don't know how it started!!!
dhw: So you and the author have no possible grounds for telling us that life appeared surprisingly quickly (supporting the concept of design). This would only be a surprise if you knew how long life normally takes to appear! (Three exclamation marks if you like.)
DAVID: You are in lala land. There are fossils of ancient life at 3.8 billion year ago and suggestive fossils at 4.1, with the Earth formed at 4.5. At 4.1 all of the necessary factors were in place for life to start as the fossils show. You are corrupted with the idea fossils have birthdays. How life starts is totally unknown. Where is unknown. When is unknown.
Thank you for this summary of what is known and what is unknown. It is the unknown factors which show precisely why you and the author are “in lala land” when you claim that the time taken for life to appear on Earth was “surprisingly short”. It could only have been surprisingly short (you say “how quickly” it appeared) if you already knew how long it normally takes for life to appear anywhere. You don’t.
T-cells help gut immunity
dhw: The whole article exemplifies the manner in which cells can transform themselves in response to different requirements, and cooperate with other cells within their community. Cells “instructing” other cells as and when necessary suggests to me (as it does to many experts in the field) that cells have the autonomous ability to absorb and process information and take their own decisions on how to use it. The possible origin of this form of intelligence is, of course, an open question, and I for one can quite understand the view that it would require a designer God to create such a mechanism. (David’s bold)
DAVID: I agree.
dhw: This should be a red letter day, as you have hitherto been so resolutely opposed to the concept of cellular intelligence. I’ll hold onto your agreement while it lasts.
DAVID: I agreed to your final comment above now bolded as it covers your God designer conclusion. It explains all of the preceding discussion you offer.
God as designer is not a conclusion but a rational possibility. In your original response, you did not bold the final comment. However, I think there is still hope that you will also come round to the possibility that cells/cell communities have autonomous intelligence that enables them to make their own designs and decisions. After all, on the “balance of nature” thread, you have frequently accepted that our fellow creatures do have it (e.g. all birds except weavers), and we and they are all made of cell communities cooperating with other cell communities!
New Miscellany
by David Turell , Sunday, January 26, 2025, 20:18 (4 days ago) @ dhw
LUCA
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: You are in lala land. There are fossils of ancient life at 3.8 billion year ago and suggestive fossils at 4.1, with the Earth formed at 4.5. At 4.1 all of the necessary factors were in place for life to start as the fossils show. You are corrupted with the idea fossils have birthdays. How life starts is totally unknown. Where is unknown. When is unknown.
dhw: Thank you for this summary of what is known and what is unknown. It is the unknown factors which show precisely why you and the author are “in lala land” when you claim that the time taken for life to appear on Earth was “surprisingly short”. It could only have been surprisingly short (you say “how quickly” it appeared) if you already knew how long it normally takes for life to appear anywhere. You don’t.
You are complaining about an impossible piece of knowledge. We only can show when life appeared, and since we do not know how it happened, when it started to form is unknown. It appeared right after the hellish bombardment period on Earth so it had a short time of formation.
T-cells help gut immunitydhw: The whole article exemplifies the manner in which cells can transform themselves in response to different requirements, and cooperate with other cells within their community. Cells “instructing” other cells as and when necessary suggests to me (as it does to many experts in the field) that cells have the autonomous ability to absorb and process information and take their own decisions on how to use it. The possible origin of this form of intelligence is, of course, an open question, and I for one can quite understand the view that it would require a designer God to create such a mechanism. (David’s bold)
DAVID: I agree.
dhw: This should be a red letter day, as you have hitherto been so resolutely opposed to the concept of cellular intelligence. I’ll hold onto your agreement while it lasts.
DAVID: I agreed to your final comment above now bolded as it covers your God designer conclusion. It explains all of the preceding discussion you offer.
dhw: God as designer is not a conclusion but a rational possibility. In your original response, you did not bold the final comment. However, I think there is still hope that you will also come round to the possibility that cells/cell communities have autonomous intelligence that enables them to make their own designs and decisions. After all, on the “balance of nature” thread, you have frequently accepted that our fellow creatures do have it (e.g. all birds except weavers), and we and they are all made of cell communities cooperating with other cell communities!
The cell communities are programmed to do that communication.
New Miscellany
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: The striking point is how quickly life appeared after the Earth formed.
dhw: Perhaps you will tell us how you and the author know how long life normally takes to appear.
DAVID: You are in lala land. There are fossils of ancient life at 3.8 billion year ago and suggestive fossils at 4.1, with the Earth formed at 4.5. At 4.1 all of the necessary factors were in place for life to start as the fossils show. You are corrupted with the idea fossils have birthdays. How life starts is totally unknown. Where is unknown. When is unknown.
dhw: Thank you for this summary of what is known and what is unknown. It is the unknown factors which show precisely why you and the author are “in lala land” when you claim that the time taken for life to appear on Earth was “surprisingly short”. It could only have been surprisingly short (you say “how quickly” it appeared) if you already knew how long it normally takes for life to appear anywhere. You don’t.
DAVID: You are complaining about an impossible piece of knowledge. We only can show when life appeared, and since we do not know how it happened, when it started to form is unknown. It appeared right after the hellish bombardment period on Earth so it had a short time of formation.
It is you who claim to have an impossible piece of knowledge. We have no criteria by which to judge what constitutes a short or a long period of formation, since the only formation of life we know about is our own! If your figures (and mine) are correct, it took 40,000,000 years for life to appear. Short in comparison to what?
T-cells help gut immunity
dhw: The whole article exemplifies the manner in which cells can transform themselves in response to different requirements, and cooperate with other cells within their community. Cells “instructing” other cells as and when necessary suggests to me (as it does to many experts in the field) that cells have the autonomous ability to absorb and process information and take their own decisions on how to use it. The possible origin of this form of intelligence is, of course, an open question, and I for one can quite understand the view that it would require a designer God to create such a mechanism. (David’s bold)
DAVID: I agree.
dhw: This should be a red letter day, as you have hitherto been so resolutely opposed to the concept of cellular intelligence. I’ll hold onto your agreement while it lasts.
DAVID: I agreed to your final comment above now bolded as it covers your God designer conclusion. It explains all of the preceding discussion you offer.
dhw: God as designer is not a conclusion but a rational possibility. In your original response, you did not bold the final comment. However, I think there is still hope that you will also come round to the possibility that cells/cell communities have autonomous intelligence that enables them to make their own designs and decisions. After all, on the “balance of nature” thread, you have frequently accepted that our fellow creatures do have it (e.g. all birds except weavers), and we and they are all made of cell communities cooperating with other cell communities!
DAVID: The cell communities are programmed to do that communication.
What is the “programme”? One might say that they are “programmed” to communicate, just as we are: i.e. they were given the intelligence and means with which to communicate, but what they communicate and what decisions they take are the product of that autonomous intelligence. Or do you really believe they have all been programmed with every single message they give and receive, and with every decision they take in response to every situation they will meet for the whole history of life?
New Miscellany
by David Turell , Monday, January 27, 2025, 18:34 (3 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: You are in lala land. There are fossils of ancient life at 3.8 billion year ago and suggestive fossils at 4.1, with the Earth formed at 4.5. At 4.1 all of the necessary factors were in place for life to start as the fossils show. You are corrupted with the idea fossils have birthdays. How life starts is totally unknown. Where is unknown. When is unknown.
dhw: Thank you for this summary of what is known and what is unknown. It is the unknown factors which show precisely why you and the author are “in lala land” when you claim that the time taken for life to appear on Earth was “surprisingly short”. It could only have been surprisingly short (you say “how quickly” it appeared) if you already knew how long it normally takes for life to appear anywhere. You don’t.
DAVID: You are complaining about an impossible piece of knowledge. We only can show when life appeared, and since we do not know how it happened, when it started to form is unknown. It appeared right after the hellish bombardment period on Earth so it had a short time of formation.
dhw: It is you who claim to have an impossible piece of knowledge. We have no criteria by which to judge what constitutes a short or a long period of formation, since the only formation of life we know about is our own! If your figures (and mine) are correct, it took 40,000,000 years for life to appear. Short in comparison to what?
In comparison to 13.78 billion years from the Big Bang. 40 million is the point of its appearance from an unknown time of its start. Your complaint is weird. The article is accepted science.
T-cells help gut immunitydhw: This should be a red letter day, as you have hitherto been so resolutely opposed to the concept of cellular intelligence. I’ll hold onto your agreement while it lasts.
DAVID: I agreed to your final comment above now bolded as it covers your God designer conclusion. It explains all of the preceding discussion you offer.
dhw: God as designer is not a conclusion but a rational possibility. In your original response, you did not bold the final comment. However, I think there is still hope that you will also come round to the possibility that cells/cell communities have autonomous intelligence that enables them to make their own designs and decisions. After all, on the “balance of nature” thread, you have frequently accepted that our fellow creatures do have it (e.g. all birds except weavers), and we and they are all made of cell communities cooperating with other cell communities!
DAVID: The cell communities are programmed to do that communication.
dhw: What is the “programme”? One might say that they are “programmed” to communicate, just as we are: i.e. they were given the intelligence and means with which to communicate, but what they communicate and what decisions they take are the product of that autonomous intelligence. Or do you really believe they have all been programmed with every single message they give and receive, and with every decision they take in response to every situation they will meet for the whole history of life?
All cell reactions are programmed.
New Miscellany
LUCA
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: The striking point is how quickly life appeared after the Earth formed. Strongly supports the concept of a designer at work.
dhw: We have no criteria by which to judge what constitutes a short or a long period of formation, since the only formation of life we know about is our own! If your figures (and mine) are correct, it took 40,000,000 years for life to appear. Short in comparison to what?
DAVID: In comparison to 13.78 billion years from the Big Bang. 40 million is the point of its appearance from an unknown time of its start. Your complaint is weird. The article is accepted science.
You just don’t or won’t see the point. Your 13.78 billion years are totally irrelevant, since I’m sure even you will agree that life cannot start on a planet that doesn’t exist. I am not disputing the accepted science. I am disputing your claim that 40 million years is a surprisingly short time (and therefore proof of design) for life to appear. You cannot know how long it normally takes for life to appear if the only example of life that you know of is ours.
T-cells help gut immunity
dhw: […] I think there is still hope that you will also come round to the possibility that cells/cell communities have autonomous intelligence that enables them to make their own designs and decisions. After all, on the “balance of nature” thread, you have frequently accepted that our fellow creatures do have it (e.g. all birds except weavers), and we and they are all made of cell communities cooperating with other cell communities!
DAVID: The cell communities are programmed to do that communication.
dhw: What is the “programme”? One might say that they are “programmed” to communicate, just as we are: i.e. they were given the intelligence and means with which to communicate, but what they communicate and what decisions they take are the product of that autonomous intelligence. Or do you really believe they have all been programmed with every single message they give and receive, and with every decision they take in response to every situation they will meet for the whole history of life?
DAVID: All cell reactions are programmed.
Just to confirm: you believe that, for instance, when a new virus attacks the immune system, your God either steps in personally to show the immune cells what to do, or 3.8 billion years ago he provided the first cells with a programme which all subsequent cells would automatically switch on, automatically choosing the correct response to the new virus – except of course when they fail to do so (i.e. when the new virus proves to be cleverer than God’s programme).
New Miscellany
by David Turell , Tuesday, January 28, 2025, 22:44 (1 day, 23 hours, 41 min. ago) @ dhw
LUCA
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: The striking point is how quickly life appeared after the Earth formed. Strongly supports the concept of a designer at work.
dhw: We have no criteria by which to judge what constitutes a short or a long period of formation, since the only formation of life we know about is our own! If your figures (and mine) are correct, it took 40,000,000 years for life to appear. Short in comparison to what?
DAVID: In comparison to 13.78 billion years from the Big Bang. 40 million is the point of its appearance from an unknown time of its start. Your complaint is weird. The article is accepted science.
dhw: You just don’t or won’t see the point. Your 13.78 billion years are totally irrelevant, since I’m sure even you will agree that life cannot start on a planet that doesn’t exist. I am not disputing the accepted science. I am disputing your claim that 40 million years is a surprisingly short time (and therefore proof of design) for life to appear. You cannot know how long it normally takes for life to appear if the only example of life that you know of is ours.
We know life appeared in a 40 million year period. Of course we don't know what time life took to do this, the point is it appeared in the 40 million year period which seems short for such a complex development.
T-cells help gut immunitydhw: […] I think there is still hope that you will also come round to the possibility that cells/cell communities have autonomous intelligence that enables them to make their own designs and decisions. After all, on the “balance of nature” thread, you have frequently accepted that our fellow creatures do have it (e.g. all birds except weavers), and we and they are all made of cell communities cooperating with other cell communities!
DAVID: The cell communities are programmed to do that communication.dhw: What is the “programme”? One might say that they are “programmed” to communicate, just as we are: i.e. they were given the intelligence and means with which to communicate, but what they communicate and what decisions they take are the product of that autonomous intelligence. Or do you really believe they have all been programmed with every single message they give and receive, and with every decision they take in response to every situation they will meet for the whole history of life?
DAVID: All cell reactions are programmed.
dhw: Just to confirm: you believe that, for instance, when a new virus attacks the immune system, your God either steps in personally to show the immune cells what to do, or 3.8 billion years ago he provided the first cells with a programme which all subsequent cells would automatically switch on, automatically choosing the correct response to the new virus – except of course when they fail to do so (i.e. when the new virus proves to be cleverer than God’s programme).
The 3.8 byo program is the one I think works.
New Miscellany
LUCA
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: The striking point is how quickly life appeared after the Earth formed. Strongly supports the concept of a designer at work.
dhw: We have no criteria by which to judge what constitutes a short or a long period of formation, since the only formation of life we know about is our own! If your figures (and mine) are correct, it took 40,000,000 years for life to appear. Short in comparison to what?
DAVID: In comparison to 13.78 billion years from the Big Bang. 40 million is the point of its appearance from an unknown time of its start. Your complaint is weird. The article is accepted science.
dhw: You just don’t or won’t see the point. Your 13.78 billion years are totally irrelevant, since I’m sure even you will agree that life cannot start on a planet that doesn’t exist. I am not disputing the accepted science. I am disputing your claim that 40 million years is a surprisingly short time (and therefore proof of design) for life to appear. You cannot know how long it normally takes for life to appear if the only example of life that you know of is ours.
DAVID: We know life appeared in a 40 million year period. Of course we don't know what time life took to do this, the point is it appeared in the 40 million year period which seems short for such a complex development.
All we can is that is the time it took, whether there’s a God or not. We have absolutely no idea how long the development of life ought to take, but 40,000,000 years “seems” pretty long to me. This sort of conjecture is totally worthless since we have nothing to compare with the development of life on Earth.
T-cells help gut immunity
DAVID: The cell communities are programmed to do that communication.
dhw: What is the “programme”? One might say that they are “programmed” to communicate, just as we are: i.e. they were given the intelligence and means with which to communicate, but what they communicate and what decisions they take are the product of that autonomous intelligence. Or do you really believe they have all been programmed with every single message they give and receive, and with every decision they take in response to every situation they will meet for the whole history of life?
DAVID: All cell reactions are programmed.
dhw: Just to confirm: you believe that, for instance, when a new virus attacks the immune system, your God either steps in personally to show the immune cells what to do, or 3.8 billion years ago he provided the first cells with a programme which all subsequent cells would automatically switch on, automatically choosing the correct response to the new virus – except of course when they fail to do so (i.e. when the new virus proves to be cleverer than God’s programme).
DAVID: The 3.8 byo program is the one I think works.
You often use the expression “just-so stories”, and we sometimes refer to Occam’s razor (the simplest explanation is the most likely). If God exists, I’d have thought the simplest explanation for every decision made by every cell and cell community in every situation for every species throughout the whole of life’s history was that God had given them all the ability to take their own decisions. I would label a 3.8 byo set of instructions for every single decision by every cell/cell community for every situation for the whole of life’s history a just-so story.
New Miscellany
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 29, 2025, 17:34 (1 day, 4 hours, 52 min. ago) @ dhw
LUCA
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: We know life appeared in a 40 million year period. Of course we don't know what time life took to do this, the point is it appeared in the 40 million year period which seems short for such a complex development.
dhw: All we can is that is the time it took, whether there’s a God or not. We have absolutely no idea how long the development of life ought to take, but 40,000,000 years “seems” pretty long to me. This sort of conjecture is totally worthless since we have nothing to compare with the development of life on Earth.
The issue you muddied is after the Earth became habitable life appeared in a 40 million year period, not knowing how long the process took.
T-cells help gut immunityDAVID: The cell communities are programmed to do that communication.
dhw: What is the “programme”? One might say that they are “programmed” to communicate, just as we are: i.e. they were given the intelligence and means with which to communicate, but what they communicate and what decisions they take are the product of that autonomous intelligence. Or do you really believe they have all been programmed with every single message they give and receive, and with every decision they take in response to every situation they will meet for the whole history of life?
DAVID: All cell reactions are programmed.
dhw: Just to confirm: you believe that, for instance, when a new virus attacks the immune system, your God either steps in personally to show the immune cells what to do, or 3.8 billion years ago he provided the first cells with a programme which all subsequent cells would automatically switch on, automatically choosing the correct response to the new virus – except of course when they fail to do so (i.e. when the new virus proves to be cleverer than God’s programme).
DAVID: The 3.8 byo program is the one I think works.
dhw: You often use the expression “just-so stories”, and we sometimes refer to Occam’s razor (the simplest explanation is the most likely). If God exists, I’d have thought the simplest explanation for every decision made by every cell and cell community in every situation for every species throughout the whole of life’s history was that God had given them all the ability to take their own decisions. I would label a 3.8 byo set of instructions for every single decision by every cell/cell community for every situation for the whole of life’s history a just-so story.
But when you put your nose into cell reactions, they all look automatic. All proteins fold automatically. All controls are invisible.
New Miscellany
LUCA
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: We know life appeared in a 40 million year period. Of course we don't know what time life took to do this, the point is it appeared in the 40 million year period BBBwhich seems short for such a complex development.
dhw: All we can say is that is the time it took, whether there’s a God or not. We have absolutely no idea how long the development of life ought to take, but 40,000,000 years “seems” pretty long to me. This sort of conjecture is totally worthless since we have nothing to compare with the development of life on Earth.
DAVID: The issue you muddied is after the Earth became habitable life appeared in a 40 million year period, not knowing how long the process took.
You are now twisting yourself in knots. You wrote: “There are fossils of life at 3.8 billion years ago and suggestive fossils at 4.1, with the Earth formed at 4.5.” It’s not in a vague 40 million year period if we know the age of the fossils, but life may even have taken as “long” as 70 million years to develop if the suggestive fossils are not fossils. And you still have nothing to compare it with.
T-cells help gut immunity
DAVID: The 3.8 byo program is the one I think works.
dhw: You often use the expression “just-so stories”, and we sometimes refer to Occam’s razor (the simplest explanation is the most likely). If God exists, I’d have thought the simplest explanation for every decision made by every cell and cell community in every situation for every species throughout the whole of life’s history was that God had given them all the ability to take their own decisions. I would label a 3.8 byo set of instructions for every single decision by every cell/cell community for every situation for the whole of life’s history a just-so story.
DAVID: But when you put your nose into cell reactions, they all look automatic. All proteins fold automatically. All controls are invisible.
Of course most of them work automatically most of the time. If they didn’t, every cell community would be in a state of flux! Their intelligence is only manifested when new conditions require new responses: e.g. when the existing community is threatened by a new virus and so new decisions are required in order to preserve the status quo, or when a new environment 1) requires or 2) allows changes to the status quo, either through 1) adaptation or 2) innovation. For every such case, you have your God’s 3.8-billion-year-old set of instructions. I would regard autonomous intelligence as an infinitely simpler explanation (Occam’s razor), and that would also account for the vast number of failures (extinctions), which you have to attribute to your God’s inefficiency.
NEW EXTREMOPHILES
DAVID: another study of extreme life demonstrating how pliable life is, covering the Earth in every place possible.
This raises three thoughts and feelings in me. One is sheer wonderment at it all. The second is that the greater the variety of life forms and environments, the more life’s history seems to be of a vast free-for-all, regardless of whether or not there is a God who set it in motion in the first place. The third is again wonderment at our human dedication to investigating the miracles and the mysteries. It’s the reverse side of our dedication to finding new ways of killing one another, but we should still be proud of the positives!
Theistic evolution vs. Darwinism: design evidence
QUOTE: His research revealed that this protein emerged from the fusion of two protein fragments: a chromatin factor and a transcription factor.
DAVID: the ARF appeared long before required its current use. If it had a use at its appearance, none is known. If it is a de novo phenomenon, if is evidence for pure design, not Darwinian natural selection.
Two existing protein fragments fused to create something new. The first cells fused into different communities which eventually evolved into every new organ and organism. Yes, yes, the whole of life can be called evidence for design, though why your God had to specially design every extinct and extant extremophile and plant and animal if he only wanted to design us and our food must remain a mystery of your making. As for “Theistic evolution vs. Darwinism”, that is also a muddle of your own making. Darwin was an agnostic, and the theory that all species evolved from earlier species |as opposed to being created separately) should not “shock the religious feelings of anyone” (Origin). Indeed, Darwin fell over backwards in later editions of Origin to stop the nonsense that you are now spouting: “There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or one.” When will you realize that Darwinism is not atheistic?
New Miscellany
by David Turell , Thursday, January 30, 2025, 19:57 (2 hours, 29 minutes ago) @ dhw
LUCA
QUOTE: The inferred age suggests that the process required a surprisingly short interval of geologic time.
DAVID: The issue you muddied is after the Earth became habitable life appeared in a 40 million year period, not knowing how long the process took.
dhw: You are now twisting yourself in knots. You wrote: “There are fossils of life at 3.8 billion years ago and suggestive fossils at 4.1, with the Earth formed at 4.5.” It’s not in a vague 40 million year period if we know the age of the fossils, but life may even have taken as “long” as 70 million years to develop if the suggestive fossils are not fossils. And you still have nothing to compare it with.
Solid fossil evidence is at 3.8 bya. When life started is unknown so all we have is their presence at a given time. What are you arguing about?
T-cells help gut immunityDAVID: But when you put your nose into cell reactions, they all look automatic. All proteins fold automatically. All controls are invisible.
dhw: Of course most of them work automatically most of the time. If they didn’t, every cell community would be in a state of flux! Their intelligence is only manifested when new conditions require new responses: e.g. when the existing community is threatened by a new virus and so new decisions are required in order to preserve the status quo, or when a new environment 1) requires or 2) allows changes to the status quo, either through 1) adaptation or 2) innovation. For every such case, you have your God’s 3.8-billion-year-old set of instructions. I would regard autonomous intelligence as an infinitely simpler explanation (Occam’s razor), and that would also account for the vast number of failures (extinctions), which you have to attribute to your God’s inefficiency.
According to Raup all extinctions are programmed into the process. They are required.
NEW EXTREMOPHILESDAVID: another study of extreme life demonstrating how pliable life is, covering the Earth in every place possible.
dhw: This raises three thoughts and feelings in me. One is sheer wonderment at it all. The second is that the greater the variety of life forms and environments, the more life’s history seems to be of a vast free-for-all, regardless of whether or not there is a God who set it in motion in the first place. The third is again wonderment at our human dedication to investigating the miracles and the mysteries. It’s the reverse side of our dedication to finding new ways of killing one another, but we should still be proud of the positives!
All diversity is organized into finely-tuned ecosystems
Theistic evolution vs. Darwinism: design evidenceQUOTE: His research revealed that this protein emerged from the fusion of two protein fragments: a chromatin factor and a transcription factor.
DAVID: the ARF appeared long before required its current use. If it had a use at its appearance, none is known. If it is a de novo phenomenon, if is evidence for pure design, not Darwinian natural selection.
dhw: Two existing protein fragments fused to create something new. The first cells fused into different communities which eventually evolved into every new organ and organism. Yes, yes, the whole of life can be called evidence for design, though why your God had to specially design every extinct and extant extremophile and plant and animal if he only wanted to design us and our food must remain a mystery of your making. As for “Theistic evolution vs. Darwinism”, that is also a muddle of your own making. Darwin was an agnostic, and the theory that all species evolved from earlier species |as opposed to being created separately) should not “shock the religious feelings of anyone” (Origin). Indeed, Darwin fell over backwards in later editions of Origin to stop the nonsense that you are now spouting: “There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or one.” When will you realize that Darwinism is not atheistic?
See full answer in a new entry today.