More "miscellany" PART ONE (General)

by David Turell @, Wednesday, May 24, 2023, 19:38 (309 days ago) @ dhw

The human brain

You admit our brain has been complexifying for 315,000 years, handling complex jobs now, not anticipated at the time. That requires starting up new circuits of many neurons that, of course, exist in the brain. The issue is simple. How many neurons are available for new circuits. At some point not enough neurons will limit complexification. Our brain was given 'enough' neurons to provide enough networks for 315,000 years and shows no sign of slowing down. Logic refutes your objection. Our brain came with necessary extra size and neurons.


Cellular intelligence: the cancer problem

dhw: You have not commented on this important evidence of cellular intelligence, or on its implications. If your God can create nasty (“rogue”) autonomous intelligence, why do you think he can’t create "nice" autonomous intelligence?

DAVID: Cancer is a non-God event. These are cells uncontrolled by God in any way. All activity by normal cells is 'nice' following God's instructions.

dhw: So your all-powerful, all-knowing, always-in-control God has no control over the “baddies”. Please tell us where you think their autonomous intelligence came from, and why – if he's all-knowing – he didn't prevent it from coming into existence, and why – if he's always in control – he cannot control it, and how the existence of autonomously intelligent "rogue" cells supports your belief that there is no such thing as autonomously intelligent cells.

DAVID: It seems you have forgotten cancer cells are not normal living cells, but cells gone wild in uncontrolled growth. They have twisted their lives because their DNA is contaminated with bad mutations.

dhw: It seems you have forgotten your statement that “this is obvious evidence of cellular intelligence in cancer cells”. They are living cells, whose mutations are bad for us, but good for them, and they use their intelligence to pursue their wicked ways. Why must baddies be intelligent and goodies can’t be intelligent? If your God is first cause, where did the baddies’ intelligence come from? If your God is all-powerful, all-knowing and in full control, why did he give them their intelligence, and why can’t he control them?

Cancer cells are abnormal and do not represent all living cells. They got away from God's controlling instructions, and we can debate how that happens under God's watch.


Role of the centromere

DAVID: Buehler's old light microscope observations are supplanted by todays' advanced methods of observation of much more than centromeres.

dhw: I thought we were talking about your bias being OK and miner being unacceptable. As regards the theory of cellular intelligence, you keep agreeing that the behaviour looks intelligent from outside, and the odds are 50/50. Have modern instruments disproved it?

DAVID: The new studies show such complex reactions, they must be designed.

dhw: You can say the same about the old discoveries. But we are talking about whether or not cells are autonomously intelligent. Have new studies shown that they are not?

My view is the massive complexity requires a designer.


INFORMATION IS THE BASIS OF LIVING BIOLOGY

DAVID: Yes information is dormant until used. But information cannot appear de novo. A mind creates it and a mind or a mind-like cell interprets and uses it.

dhw: So when the wind blew the rock down on the man’s head and killed him, the masses of information contained in that incident were created by a mind, were they?

You still haven’t responded to this.

dhw: What is your objection to the statement that biochemistry is the basis of living biology?

DAVID: Biochemistry, as a subject, is our understanding of how living biology works. We see it as a result of living cells using instructive information in their genomes.

dhw: Yes, biochemistry is a subject for study, but it's also the chemistry of living things, as in: Chemistry: “the composition, properties and reactions of a particular substance”. (Encarta) Cells have to be alive before they can “use” information, so don’t you think the basis of life/living biology must be whatever composition, properties and reactions give them life? But let me repeat: I have no objection to the term “information” when its meaning is clear. I only object when it obscures rather than clarifies, as in such statements as “information is the basis of living biology” and “information can never form by chance”.

DAVID: The now bolded is blatently wrong. The information in DNA allows cells to produce life.

dhw: So we have DNA lying around, dead to the world, and the not-yet-living cells use its information to make themselves alive. I don’t think this theory is going to get you many prizes. :-)

DNA, as a code, must be interpreted by cells or life doesn't happen. Remember first life appeared and has been producing life ever since.' How' is what we debate.


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