More "miscellany" PARTS ONE & TWO (General)

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 01, 2022, 17:06 (514 days ago) @ dhw

Talbott’s Agency

dhw: […] So your fellow ID-ers reject Talbott’s view that intelligent organisms make their own decisions, but they like his view that intelligent organisms make their own decisions because this supports the case for design. I find this confusing. And all ID-ers believe that every decision was either dabbled ad hoc by God, or was preprogrammed by God 3.8 billion years ago. I find this surprising, as I thought many of them focused on design without explicitly discussing the existence and possible purpose of your God.

DAVID: Current entries are breaking the no-God rule.

dhw: So all that remains is for you to tell us 1) how your fellow ID-ers can reject Talbott’s theory of autonomously decision-making organisms, but approve of it as proof of design, and 2) whether they all accept the theory bolded above.

ID believes God designed life and its evolution. Talbott's 'agency' implies 'mind' in action, and of course that mind is God in their eyes.


Horizontal gene transfer

dhw: Back to your theory of evolution: please confirm whether or not it is your belief that your God put snake genes into frogs as an “absolute requirement” necessary for his design of sapiens and our food supply. If not, please tell us why you think he might have done it.

Everything on Earth is a result of God's designs.


Toxoplasma

DAVID: What exists God wanted to exist. All part of the giant ecosystem of life on Earth.

dhw: Well, yes, the whole Earth is one gigantic ecosystem of ecosystems, and so whatever is on it is on it. I don’t know how that comes to mean that everything that is or ever was on Earth was specially designed as an absolute requirement for us, and to be frank, I reckon we humans would probably have been better off if your God hadn’t designed the toxoplasma. (But if he exists, I’d propose that he didn’t design it!)

DAVID: Everything here exists under God's designs.

dhw: And according to your theories of evolution, everything here exists/existed and has been designed by your God for the sole purpose of producing H. sapiens and our food. So why do you think toxoplasma was necessary for our existence and/or our food supply?

All God produced was put here for His purposes. 'Dayenu' is a reasonable view of God' gifts.


Black hole maths benefits

DAVID: Come on!! How often have you quoted Shapiro's put down about large-brained organism's aggrandizement!! ;-)

dhw: Come on!! You know perfectly well that Shapiro’s comment is a putdown, not about our intelligence but about our arrogance in assuming that microorganisms cannot possibly have their own form of intelligence. :-D

We both accept a degree of intelligence in all forms with a brain.


The issue of chance: Godel’s theorem

DAVID: this applies to using math to absolutely prove any part of reality. It means we have to accept certain concepts about reality on faith.

dhw: I don’t know why you have headed this “The issue of chance”, as if it dealt with chance versus design. But your comment is very apt, and we don’t need to wade through Gödel to recognize its truth! However, as an agnostic I would add that there are concepts about reality on which we can keep an open mind!

An open mind to accept the obvious design in living forms.


Black hole differing masses

QUOTE:"'The universe is revealing to us that it's always more strange, mysterious and fascinating than most of us could have ever imagined.'"

DAVID: that last statement is certainly true. I still wonder why God did it that way?

dhw: Indeed the same comment might be applied to the strange, mysterious and fascinating history of life on Earth, but you don’t wonder “why God did it that way”. You have a fixed and very strange and mysterious, though maybe not so fascinating theory about that: he had to design all the strange, mysterious and fascinating dead ends that did not lead to us and our food, in order to design us and our food!:-|

It is simple to recognize design requires a working mind. Dead ends are not mysterious results, as they are required part of any evolutionary system of creation


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