More "miscellany" PARTS ONE AND TWO (General)

by dhw, Monday, October 03, 2022, 07:44 (542 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Please explain why your belief that God wants full control, enjoys creating, is interested in his creations and is kind, does not make him “very human”. [...]

DAVID: Because we use human terms to describe Him you force humanity on Him. My God is in full control, no 'want' needed.

You always tell us he does what he wants to do. Now please explain why all the above characteristics do not count as “very human”.

DAVID: He has clearly defined purposes and knows exactly how to achieve them. His possible interest in them and enjoyment of creating are secondary to His primary goals, not reasons for His creating efforts.

Once more it’s plural purposes and “primary goals”, although you insist he only had one (to design us and our food) and all his other creations were “absolute requirements” for its fulfilment. How do you know that he knew exactly how to achieve his one goal, even though he proceeded to design countless organisms that had no connection with his one goal? Why should interest and enjoyment NOT be primary goals for creating life, including us? What do you think your purposeful God’s “primary purpose” was for creating us?

DAVID: You have him watching with interest, not my view.

I reproduced the quotes expressing your certainty that he watches with interest. Now I wait with bated breath to hear your answers to the above questions.

Human evolution

dhw: [..] But of course once our brain had reached its current size, it coped with later requirements, just as earlier brains had done, through complexification.

DAVID: Of course, it easily coped with simple events then, and now for giant current use. It arrived prepared for the future, a concept you keep denying.

dhw: That is not the concept I deny, although I’m wary of what you mean by “prepared” (which could suggest intervention from outside). Of course our final expansion supplied us with enough cells to deal with future requirements! How many times must I repeat the following: “Our disagreement is on the cause and timing of each expansion. (You say your God dabbled in anticipation of future requirements, and I say brains expanded in response to current requirements.)” And see the bolded statement above.

DAVID: Right. God speciates.

I have no idea what your agreement has to do with your God speciating, since we are discussing the cause and timing of sapiens’ brain expansion.

Cambrian explosion

DAVID: this is a great new find, but it just fills niche in a well-established story. dhw keeps hoping for something to remove the Cambrian gap. Not at all likely.

dhw: Not a wish or a hope. See above. But you are right: it is yet another discovery to support the well-established theory of common descent (as opposed to separate design), and the first quote should make it clear that there could have been lots of animals that have left no fossils at all. Wouldn’t you agree that 500+ million years is quite a long time for dead bodies to be preserved?

DAVID: But the fossils appear. Perhaps God purposely arranged for fossilization so we could understand how we evolved.

It sounds as if you have him playing games with us: “Find the fossil”. Very human. So maybe he’s hidden a lot more, which we shall eventually find, and meanwhile he and Darwin are having a good laugh together.

Ethan Siegel on The Big Bang

DAVID: The BB still looks like 'something for nothing'; a true creation. Support for God in action.

dhw: Ethan Siegel would be surprised by your conclusion. He is an atheist.

DAVID: Not surprised.

Oh well, I’m surprised then, that you should think an atheist is writing in support of “God in action”.

How country ants urbanize

DAVID: so far it is a descriptive study showing how ants adapt easily to city life.

Yes, the article shows their amazing adaptability, as they figure out new ways of handling new conditions. I can’t help feeling that they do so by using their own intelligence, rather than God preprogramming every adaptation 3.8 billion years ago, or popping in to give them courses because without their being able to live in our houses, how could he possibly provide us with enough food to keep us going?

Plant immunity

QUOTE: "Additionally, Hao Yu, […] knew that some tree species use these volatile compounds to communicate with one another […]However, this behavior had never been studied in conifers, which are famous for their belowground networks of fungal communication.

DAVID: The question, of course, is how this developed, naturally or by God.

Why not both? All of these natural wonders point to one form or another of intelligence. Perception, processing of the information perceived, communication followed by action….these are all characteristics of intelligence – though of course not human levels of consciousness. Once you accept that all cells/communities have their own form and level of intelligence, everything else fits into place, including the higgledy-piggledy, free-for-all history of life on Earth, as intelligent organisms fight for survival. And your God may have set it up by designing the intelligent cell, and may also have dabbled if he felt like it (e.g. Chixculub, or even popping in with some new ideas of his own).


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