More "miscellany" (General)

by dhw, Monday, August 15, 2022, 08:28 (592 days ago) @ David Turell

Are we alone? and Rare earth hypothesis

DAVID: I simply think bacteria (seeds) were put there by God.

dhw: So he might have designed bacteria and put them all over the universe. Then what did he
“allow” the little critters to do? And if he’s all-knowing, did he know what they would do (e.g. nothing)? If there are other evolved forms of life elsewhere, presumably you think he would have designed them, so why do you think he would have bothered with those he didn’t fiddle with (or preprogramme)? If there are no other forms of life elsewhere, we are left with the question of why he bothered to create all the billions of galaxies and solar systems if he only wanted one.

DAVID: The forgotten point is only the Earth can allow us to appear. The rest of the universe exists for God's reasons with or without Has sparks of early life. We're off on a tangent of unknown possibilities.

We don’t know if the Earth is unique. You raised the interesting subject of other possibilities, and so I have asked pertinent questions about each of them. Your answers raise more questions, especially in relation to your theories about your God. Nobody knows the truth, but if you can’t find logical answers, maybe your theories are wrong!

How E coli fights our system

DAVID: Yes, good or bad. All fight for survival.

dhw: I’m delighted to see that you agree to the idea of a gigantic free-for-all in which all life forms fight for survival.

DAVID: But not a free-for-all in the design process. These are all parts of necessary ecosystems.

dhw: Either your God designed them or he didn’t. If he did, either he designed them to kill humans or he didn’t. If he didn’t, then he lost control. Or he didn’t care that they would kill humans. Or he gave them the freedom to fight for survival in whatever way suited them. The latter = a free-for-all. Take your pick.

DAVID: You can have that version of a free-for-all if you wish. It doesn't guide evolution.

dhw: Correct. But your God, if he exists, could always dabble if he felt like it. So which of the above alternatives are you choosing?

DAVID: God designs everything.

So do you think he designed E-coli to kill us, did he lose control, did he not care that they would kill us, or did he give them the freedom to fight for survival in their own way (= a free-for-all)?

Back to theodicy:

dhw: […] Your theory about “side accidents” which cause havoc to so many members of the human race suggests to me that your caring God lost control if his aim was to care for us. Back we go to the gigantic free-for-all.

DAVID: Hugh Ross would not accept your analysis, nor would I.

dhw: I know. Please explain why.

DAVID: The article clearly explains how viruses help life. You concentrate on the negative.

dhw: It is the negative that theodicy is concerned with.

DAVID: And the negative is huge or it is not huge is individual perception.

Hugeness is irrelevant. Theodicy tries to explain why an all-good God would create bad. Not how big is bad compared to good!

Vocalisation

DAVID:[…] […] what survival need made the changes appear in a naturally functioning evolutionary process? I see none.

dhw: […] The obvious “survival need” for changes in voice and brain is that with advancing intelligence, humans needed more efficient means of communication. […]

DAVID: […] I view God designing for future use, since such designs are well beyond species adaptations we perceive. It takes a complex mind to think through the design requirements.

dhw: Once the changes have been made, of course they will be used in the future! Your point is that the changes are caused by your God preprogamming them 3.8 billion years ago, or popping in to perform operations on a few sleeping homos, so they wake up able to talk. Mine is that the need for new sounds causes the relevant cell communities to make the necessary changes themselves. When the illiterate Indian women learned to read, it was found that this caused changes to their brains. The same process would have taken place in the relevant cell communities (voice and brain mechanisms) when our ancestors began to use new sounds. Cell communities change when they try to meet new requirements, not in anticipation of them.

DAVID: The Indian women used an already existing mechanism which isn't comparable to deleting a membrane.

It makes no difference whether there is a gain or a loss: the mechanism makes the changes necessary to meet new requirements.


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