More "miscellany" (General)

by dhw, Wednesday, December 08, 2021, 09:32 (43 days ago) @ David Turell

Reality: God is a mathematician
DAVID: We differ from God in that we cannot attain His depth of knowledge or thought capacity.

If he exists, of course we can’t. How does that come to mean that although you agree he probably has thought patterns and emotions and logic similar to ours, and we “mimic him” in certain ways, any theory containing thought patterns, emotions and logic similar to ours must be wrong?

Monarchs use toxic milkweed
dhw: I am quite prepared to accept the possibility that your God designed the mechanism for producing new antibodies! I do not accept that the new antibodies are already there when the invader strikes, and I keep pointing out that NEW antibodies are a RESPONSE to new invaders, which suggests that the mechanism is able to process new information, communicate with other cells, take decisions etc. – all the hallmarks of intelligence. […]

DAVID: You are once again forgetting the Monarch's precise lifecycle of required poisonous milkweed munching. Every caterpillar must be protected from the start of the lifecycle which, in my view, appeared all at once by God's design.

You are once again forgetting that all precise lifecycles must have originated at some time. […] you agree that the bees’ “algorithm” is the ABILITY to interpret. I suggest that this ABILITY (possibly designed by your God) enabled the monarch to develop its lifestyle, as opposed to your God’s 3.8-billion-year-old programme or dabble to counter milkweed poison, apparently so necessary for his design of humans plus food.

evolution driven by extinctions
dhw: I only ask why your all-powerful God would go to all the trouble of deliberately designing all those life forms – the vast majority of which had no connection with humans plus food – and now all these environmental changes and extinctions in order to produce us and our food, although according to you he was perfectly capable of designing new species directly (e.g. the Cambrian).

DAVID: Once again you question God's obvious logic while accepting God's history.

No, I question your logic.

DAVID: As for your total misunderstanding of the Cambrian, I've explained it before: necessary biochemical processes were developed pre-Cambrian. Once in place God could design the new forms which are the basis of current animal life.

So why did your God, whose only purpose according to you, was to design humans plus food, specially design all the Cambrian and post-Cambrian life forms (and extinctions) that had no connection with humans, when he had now developed the basics and could design any species he liked?

DAVID: The obvious logic, which you constantly ignore, is God prefers to evolve, not directly create. Since you question God's actions, why not ask you to ask Him?

But he didn’t “evolve” the Cambrians – you believe he created them without predecessors! And even our friend the monarch butterfly didn’t “evolve” its lifestyle: “Every caterpillar must be protected from the start of the lifecycle which, in my view, appeared all at once by God's design.”

Heliosphere protection
DAVID: The universe is a dangerous place for living organisms. dhw wonders why God made the universe this way. Perhaps it has to be and one day we will fully understand.

Indeed I wonder why an all-powerful, all-knowing God, whose only purpose was apparently to create H. sapiens plus food, should have created so many problems for himself before he could even design life. It’s inexplicable, and typifies your whole theory of evolution. You can only hope that one day you will understand it yourself.

Ecosystem importance
DAVID: This is a beautiful example of an important very complex system which is an answer to why dhw thinks God made too many animals on His way to producing humans. All those animals are necessary for the proper balance. Just imagine the chaos if all the lions disappeared, as the absent wolves in Yellowstone.

As usual, you omit the illogical parts of your theory. You try to equate the havoc humans are creating in our current ecosystems with all the ecosystems of the past: what on earth is the “proper balance”? Proper for what? Countless ecosystems and their life forms have disappeared during the last 3.X billion years, the vast majority of which had no connection with humans, and yet still you pretend that somehow they were ALL “part of the goal of evolving [= designing] humans” and their food!

Upright posture
DAVID: upright posture requires pelvic changes and a development of lumbar lordosis, which apes do not have. [...] Did continuous attempts at bipedal locomotion produce the change? Not likely with a dependence upon chance mutations. On the other hand if provided with the proper spinal anatomy upright, posture becomes easy to manage. Design is obvious.

Why have you linked “continuous attempts” to random mutations? Even an individual human in his own lifetime can make minor changes to his/her body by “continuous attempts” – what would be the purpose of training if it were otherwise? Why is it impossible that the cell communities of which all bodies consist might with “continuous attempts” alter their structure from legs to flippers (whales), or from slouching bone structure to upright bone structure?


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