More "miscellany" (General)

by dhw, Monday, December 06, 2021, 13:55 (45 days ago) @ David Turell

Reality: God is a mathematician

DAVID: God set automatic processes into motion for the universe, not life's evolution.

dhw: How do you know?

DAVID: I believe in what God does, has done.

dhw: And how do you know that in the context of evolution God’s only aim was sapiens plus food and therefore what he “did” was specially design every life form, food, lifestyle, natural wonder etc. “as part of the goal of evolving (= designing) humans” and their food, although the vast majority had no connection with humans and their food? And how do you know that your God 1) has not “done” a free-for-all, or 2) “done” experiments, or 3) “done” creating and destroying as he comes up with more and more new ideas?

DAVID: Your human God has to come up with new ideas. My God has all the purposes known in advance of all actions He performs.

Coming up with new ideas is one of three options above, each of which starts out with a known purpose! You seem to think that in the context of your God’s activities, the word “purpose” is synonymous with “designing humans and their food”! Purpose can be that (hence experimenting to achieve it), or it can be to see what will happen if…(the excitement of discovery). And please don’t tell me that I regard a bodiless, eternal, conscious mind capable of creating universes and life as “human”. I simply believe, as you have repeatedly agreed, that if he exists, he probably has some thought patterns like our own, and indeed that we may “mimic” him.

Monarchs use toxic milkweed
DAVID: Again you are proposing luck.

dhw: Lucky to survive, OK. Do you deny that millions of bacteria die before the survivors come up with a solution (which is not luck)? That millions of humans have died from Covid-9, but millions have survived? Ditto every other plague in the history of humankind. Do you still refuse to accept, even today, that cells develop new responses (not luck) to new bacteria/viruses/poisons/diseases and are not already equipped with the specific “defence” against the specific invader?

DAVID: Immune responses are automatic and designed by God. Ditto Monarchs

Even if your fixed belief was true and 3.8 billion years ago your God designed every undabbled antibody/antidote for the rest of life’s history, it wouldn’t change or explain the fact the invader kills some victims but others survive, and that the immune response FOLLOWS the invasion and is not concurrent with it but has to be developed.

dhw: Since you see him as all-powerful and full of good intentions and always in control, and since you see him as having only wanted to create one species(plus food), I still don’t understand why you think he deliberately created bacteria and viruses that made all these horrific blunders, or why he had to create lots and lots of different homos with different attributes, instead of simply creating the only one he wanted along with all the attributes. Sounds like one great big mess to me, unlike my alternatives listed under “God as a mathematician”, which all fit in perfectly with the history of life.

DAVID: Same point we've covered: God knew mistakes would happen beyond His editing controls so a variety of human forms would develop useful attributes using His designed protective systems.

This is not just a question of him knowing the future! According to you, he specifically designed every species of animal and of human. And yet the only species of human he wanted to design was sapiens. And according to you, he was/is perfectly capable of designing species without any predecessors (the Cambrian). So we come to the next quote about human evolution:

Quote: "To me, however, all of human evolution, even well after our own species first emerged, is a mess of branches and dead ends. Our evolutionary history is complicated, and we should embrace that."

dhw: Sums it up – a mess of branches and dead ends, but it actually applies to the whole history of evolution. Fits in perfectly with the concept of a free-for-all.

DAVID: Argumentative voices add to our thoughts. I think the dhw theory is right on, but I come with a slightly different twist. God didn't want a free-for-all.

dhw: Which of my theories do you agree with, then?

DAVID: Not a free-for-all which is God not in control, but I view it as a purposeful variation as I have proposed.

So which of my theories is “right on”? (NB my free-for-all theory is purposeful, as are all my alternative theories.)

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