More "miscellany" (General)

by dhw, Monday, November 22, 2021, 13:38 (5 days ago) @ David Turell

Survival
dhw: Speciation consists of changes in body form, and if the changes in body form are designed to improve chances of survival, then obviously improving chances of survival is the driving force behind speciation!

DAVID: Your approach is always organism oriented, so of course in your theory suv ival is a driving force.

Even your God could hardly direct speciation without considering the possible interests of the species. What was his motive in giving pre-whales flippers instead of legs? Was it because he wanted a new species with flippers, or was it because he wanted the organisms to have a better chance of survival in the water?

DAVID: It makes perfect sense when one admits God creates all reality and all history any way He wishes. Evolution seemed to have happened (per Darwin) so God evolved us

dhw: If God exists, then yes he created our reality, and yes he could do it any way he wished, and yes evolution happened, and yes we and every other life form evolved. How does that come to mean that your God changed legs to flippers in advance of changing conditions in order to ensure that the new species would have a better chance of survival, and yet the flippers – which were one of the changes in body form that constitute speciation – were not designed for the purpose of improving chances of survival?

DAVID: The bold is a total misstatement of my stated position: God's newly designed species must be designed for survivability as God advances evolution through each more complex stage.

But all stages of evolution consist of changing body forms! This is not an abstract process with flippers tacked on so that the new species can survive. The flippers are what MAKE the organism a new species. So did your God say to himself: “Flippers are more complex than legs, so a flippered whale will be the new complex stage of evolution”?

dhw: In other words, why do you separate the reason for changes in body form from speciation, which consists in changes of body?

DAVID: Because, as above, I don't!!!

You are saying God’s reason for changing legs to flippers (which stands for all the changes in body form that make for speciation) was to advance evolution through more complex stages. But the changes that RESULT in speciation (flippers) are designed to improve chances of survival! Therefore, even in your God-directed evolution, speciation is driven by the quest for survival! The flippers are not separate from speciation – they ARE speciation.

Genome complexity
"There is a deeper, philosophical question here: How can such a complex molecular machine, crucial for the synthesis of proteins and hence life, be itself dependent on 75 different proteins for its function? Where did those proteins come from in the first place if there was no PIC to initiate protein synthesis? (DAVID’s bold)
"Or what came first—the chicken or the egg?"

DAVID: any reasonable person, reading this article, would recognize the need for design, so why not accept a designer at work? Not at the 'maybe' level of thought!

dhw: Thank you for yet another instance of design that cries out for a designer. There is, of course, no answer to the bolded question, and it represents the best possible argument for the existence of your God. But in answer to the same question and to your own, I can only ask: where did a conscious, universal mind come from in the first place? Back we go to “first cause”, and the enormous leap of faith required if one is to believe that a conscious mind capable of creating a universe together with all the complexities of life can simply “be”, and can have had no origin. This faith solves one mystery by creating another which is even more mysterious.

DAVID: If you see the powerful argument for a designer in the complex stuff I present, how do you then fill the need? You don't.

Correct. How do you fill in the need to explain the existence of a conscious, universal mind etc., as above? You don’t.


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