More "miscellany" (General)

by dhw, Monday, November 15, 2021, 12:14 (12 days ago) @ David Turell

Moved from “Cellular intelligence” as you switched the subject to survival:
Sensing autonomic activity
DAVID: I'll stick to my view survival plays no role in driving evolution to the next stage.

dhw: […] As for survival, do you or do you not agree that the development of flippers from legs was an aid to survival and a factor in changing pre-whales into whales (= speciation)?

DAVID: Flippers are a requirement for survival in a watery environment. So God designed them helping mammals become aquatic.

It is therefore absurd to claim that designing a species-changing organ which is required for survival means that survival plays no role in driving evolution to the next stage. What is evolution if it is not changes in body forms which lead to speciation?

David v Dawkins
DAVID: The debate is what Dawkins gets wrong when you encouraged me..

dhw: The debate is over your dismissal of a theory (cellular intelligence) as if your opinion was a fact. This dismissal of theories which you do not believe is common to theists and atheists alike. If you think Dawkins’ opinion is only worth ignoring – and he thinks the same about yours – there is no debate but simply a blinkered and unscientific approach to the subject.

DAVID: Now you don't like the fact each of us has opinions. You have yours

I am not against opinions! I am against what amounts to biogotry (e.g. The God Delusion), whether theistic or atheistic! (This is getting too close to ad hominems for my liking, and I think we should drop the subject!)

Human evolution: another huge gap
DAVID: I don't know God's reasons for evolving us in stages from bacteria. But that is His obvious choice of a creation process.

As a believer in evolution and an agnostic, I have no problem with the idea that your God (if he exists) chose evolution in stages as his method of fulfilling whatever may have been his purpose! The problem that I have is with your interpretation of evolution, as discussed under “Giraffe plumbing”.

Magic embryology
dhw: I am trying to get you to distinguish between established patterns that work automatically and the solving of new problems together with the origin of the established patterns, which is when autonomous intelligence comes into play.

For some reason, you digressed from this important distinction, and returned to the 50/50 game.

Metamorphosis
dhw: The problem of metamorphosis relates to all forms of “babies”. Your breakfast egg, protected by its shell, would turn into a chicken. The mammal’s eggs are protected inside the mother. The acorn grows into an oak. They are all weird in their own way. They may have evolved “naturally” – by which I mean through cellular intelligence (perhaps designed by your God), and not through random mutations – or supernaturally (through your God). Either way, I accept that they are intelligently designed, and clearly the aim of each design was survival. But I have not offered any over-all theory because I have no idea how such methods could have evolved. If there are things we don’t understand, and if we can’t think of any logical explanation, I feel it is better not to present and stand by a fixed opinion. Don’t you?

DAVID: The above is your great agnostic example of not accepting God. Accepting the need for a designer then requires the next step, a designing mind we call God. Just accept the designing mind concept, and no further.

When I say “perhaps designed by your God” and “through your God”, I am explaining a possible God’s possible role in metamorphosis and evolution in general. This is not a matter of “not accepting God”. It is you who insist on going further and offering a fixed but illogical interpretation of evolution that goes far, far beyond the designing mind concept (see “Giraffe plumbing”).


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