Spirituality and the Brain (Identity)

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Saturday, February 13, 2010, 22:05 (5396 days ago)

Quotes from a recent article:-"Selective brain damage modulates human spirituality"-http://www.physorg.com/news185027522.html-"recent advances in neuroscience have started to make the complex mental processes associated with religion and spirituality more accessible."-"The group found that selective damage to the left and right posterior parietal regions induced a specific increase in ST" 
[ST = "self-transcendence"]

--
GPJ

Spirituality and the Brain

by David Turell @, Sunday, February 14, 2010, 01:25 (5395 days ago) @ George Jelliss

Quotes from a recent article:
> 
> "Selective brain damage modulates human spirituality"
> 
> http://www.physorg.com/news185027522.html
> 
> "recent advances in neuroscience have started to make the complex mental processes associated with religion and spirituality more accessible."
> 
> "The group found that selective damage to the left and right posterior parietal regions induced a specific increase in ST" 
> [ST = "self-transcendence"]-Thank you George for this reference. It is much like the work of Andrew Newberg, M.D. as reported in his books, especially "Why God Won't go Away".

Spirituality and the Brain

by dhw, Monday, February 15, 2010, 08:50 (5394 days ago) @ George Jelliss

My thanks to George, who has referred us to an article on brain damage that modulates human spirituality. The research has started to make "the complex mental processes associated with religion and spirituality more accessible." -Dr Cosimo Urgesi, the lead author, writes: "Damage to posterior parietal areas induced unusually fast changes of a stable personality dimension related to transcendental self-referential awareness." Mention of "damage", "mental illness" and "personality disorders" could be taken to suggest that self-transcendence ... "a decreased sense of self and an ability to identify oneself as an integral part of the universe as a whole" ... is a kind of mental aberration. Dr Urgesi does not say this explicitly, however, and I'm impressed by George's self-restraint, as it must have been tempting for him to associate religious experience with brain disorder!-None of us would deny that certain areas of the brain are associated with particular perceptions and activities, and the fact is that some spheres are more developed than others in different people. Hence their greater mathematical / scientific / artistic / practical / intellectual gifts. A dog has more than 220 million olfactory receptors in its nose (we have about 5 million) and an additional olfactory chamber called a vomeronasal organ. But although we can't smell what the dog can smell, it would never occur to us that the dog imagines scents that aren't there. Well, maybe (I'm only speculating) there are some human brains with a more highly developed network of frontal, parietal and temporal connections that sharpen awareness of realities beyond the material world as most of us know it. -Our brain is an instrument both of perception and of imagination. Of course it can be influenced by drugs or illness or accident, but not all religious or "paranormal" experiences can be attributed to these. In many cases, we don't know whether the areas of the brain involved are perceiving or imagining (though we'll use our subjective judgement as to whether a case is to be taken seriously or not). Just as a dog smells things we can't smell, perhaps certain people may perceive sounds, visions, wavelengths beyond the range of others with a "normal" network. This would be what enables them to sense a form of life that transcends their own individuality, or to obtain information to which they apparently cannot have had direct access (as reported, for instance by BBella and David and countless others down through the centuries).-Dr Urgesi says that "information on the causative link between such a network and spirituality is lacking." The question remains open, then, as to whether the network of physical connections creates spiritual experiences or perceives them.

Spirituality and the Brain

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Monday, February 15, 2010, 16:23 (5394 days ago) @ dhw

Part of your response rang out to me, when you were talking about personality "disorders" and the like. -Odd for an advocate of technology, but I really hate the tendency for our culture to mark certain things that I would consider personality traits as "disorders." In many instances it is these disorders that create some of history's most cherished (and sometimes infamous) figures: Van Gogh being only one of many.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Spirituality and the Brain

by dhw, Sunday, May 23, 2010, 07:43 (5297 days ago) @ dhw

I asked David why only 18% of Pim van Lommel's 344 patients experienced NDEs. As this takes us away from E Coli vs. Linux, I'm reopening the thread George started on Spirituality and the Brain, as that is the most recent one to tackle the nature of such experiences. David has replied:-"Humans vary, as certainly do our brains. Using the disputed IQ as an example, it has a huge range. Some folks are psychic, as my wife. Some are privileged to be able to have NDEs. Nothing else makes sense."-For me, as for you, NDEs come under the range of psychic experiences, but they differ from all others in that the brain is supposed to be clinically dead. This is why they raise the whole question of the nature of consciousness. The materialist argument is quite specifically that the source is the cells and chemicals in the brain. Patients who experience NDEs apparently retain their consciousness and identity INDEPENDENTLY of the cells and chemicals. Now even though we all have different brains and mental capacities, it would surely be absurd to argue that the actual source is different in 18% of van Lommel's patients. That would mean materialists are right about 82% of us and wrong about 18%. -I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a believer, and I suppose an answer might be that for 82% of people, the trauma of death is so massive that the spirit blacks out for a while. And so those spirits just didn't have time to "recover" before the patients were resuscitated. But if I put myself in the shoes of a non-sceptical materialist, I'd be inclined to use your own argument: "Humans vary, as certainly do our brains." Maybe some brains are so differently wired that they result in what we call psychic experiences (see my other post on this thread), and maybe there are impulses beyond the current scope of our measuring instruments, and maybe these continue for a short time after the death of the brain, before the final blackout. Lots of maybes. George, as a sceptical materialist, would no doubt come up with more radical theories. As for "nothing else makes sense", I sometimes wonder if anything at all makes sense.

Spirituality and the Brain

by David Turell @, Sunday, May 23, 2010, 20:07 (5297 days ago) @ dhw


> and maybe there are impulses beyond the current scope of our measuring instruments, and maybe these continue for a short time after the death of the brain, before the final blackout. Lots of maybes. -It is worse than you may remember in the van Lommel article. There are those patients who are aware of leaving their bodies and watching procedures on themselves. There are the folks going down the tunnel to the light, and learning information they could not otherwise know. And the fellow from the pasture, 45 minutes until resuscitated, flat EEG and EKG, and he 'knew' who took his teeth and where they were placed. The 18% is an approximation. Different studies vary from 1/5th to 1/4th in the occurrance of these phenomena. And don't forget the killer statistic: the deeper and more complex the remembered NDE, the quicker you die. So its not just that you have an NDE, but it fortells the rate of mortality. Of course, all we know about are those who survive and tell the tale. We don't know the percentages of NDE's in those that simply go ahead and die.

Spirituality and the Brain

by dhw, Tuesday, May 25, 2010, 12:10 (5295 days ago) @ David Turell

David has reminded me of the various near-death experiences in which patients acquired information they could not have known normally.-This, of course, is precisely why I keep an open mind on the subject. I have no explanation. But if we are to take NDEs as evidence of an afterlife, we can scarcely ignore the fact that the vast majority of resuscitated patients had no such experience. You say that "18% is an approximation. Different studies vary from 1/5th to 1/4th in the occurrence of these phenomena." Then at the very best 75% of resuscitated patients experienced nothing. Apparently only 15 of van Lommel's 344 patients (4.36%) actually had an out-of-body experience. I can only repeat, if consciousness and identity are independent of the brain cells and survive them in an afterlife, this should be the case for all of us, so why is the proportion of surviving identities apparently so low? -As for "the killer statistic: the deeper and more complex the remembered NDE, the quicker you die", I don't understand why this should be regarded as evidence of an afterlife. Your final point is: "all we know about are those who survive and tell the tale. We don't know the percentages of NDEs in those that simply go ahead and die." Well, I guess those that go ahead and die don't have near-death experiences, they only have death experiences! We would have to move into the world of spiritualism to get beyond the accounts of the survivors.-Pim van Lommel's examples plus other experiences of inexplicable knowledge, as recounted by yourself, BBella, my wife and countless others, simply cannot ... in my view ... be ignored. We can only speculate on how these phenomena occur, and a non-physical consciousness (tied in with an afterlife) is a possible explanation. My comments are not meant to be dismissive. But how can one even begin to conceive of such an immaterial identity, let alone explain it? If matter is not conscious of itself, how can non-matter give it consciousness? If our identity exists independently, what is its relationship to its physical container? If I began with my physical conception, when and how did I develop a non-physical identity? Whatever explanation we come up with is riddled with gaps, in this field as in most of the matters we discuss. Without faith to fill those gaps ... either spiritually or materially ... I still see no way down from the picket fence.

Spirituality and the Brain

by dhw, Sunday, May 30, 2010, 18:13 (5290 days ago) @ dhw

An article in today's Sunday Times has the headline: That's not the afterlife ... it's a brainstorm. The subheading, under Science, is: Near-death experiences may be caused by a cascade of electrical activity in the dying brain, reports Jonathan Leake.-Researchers have observed a surge of electrical activity before death, and they suggest that "this surge may be the cause of near-death experiences, the mysterious medical phenomena in which patients who have been revived when close to death report sensations such as walking towards a bright light or a belief that they are floating above their body. Many people experience the sensation as a religious vision and treat it as confirmation of an afterlife. However, the scientists behind the new research believe that is wrong." (Note the progression here from "may be the cause" to "believe that is wrong" ... a good example of giving scientific authority to pure speculation.) -Perhaps "near-death" and "close to death" are bad descriptions, since NDEs refer to the experiences of patients who have been pronounced clinically dead. That is certainly the case in the Pim van Lommel study, which the article mentions (though not by name), as well as in the current Awareness During Rescuscitation study, in which Sam Parnia is interviewing 700 Britons who have been revived from cardiac arrests. Parnia expresses caution over the link between the surge and NDEs (as opposed to actual death), which I'll comment on in a moment. However, first let's consider the following paragraph:-"The activity [i.e. the electrical surge just before death] was similar to that seen in people who are fully conscious, even though the patients appeared asleep and had no blood pressure. Soon after the surge abated, they were pronounced dead."-I don't think anyone would question the claim that thought is accompanied by electrical impulses. The question is which is the cause and which is the effect. Lakhmir Chawla, an intensive care doctor in Washington engaged on this project, seems to assume that electrical activity is the cause, but what grounds are there for such an assumption? If you slam a door, there will be sound waves, but the sound waves are not the cause of the door slamming. The fact is, we do not know how thought comes about, or how electrical impulses and thought are transformed into each other. If dying, unconscious people observe actions and obtain knowledge from outside their bodies, is it an explanation to say this is caused by "electrical activity"? -Chawla's work (based on only 7 cases, but he knows of at least 50 more) concerns patients who have actually died, but NDE-ers have been pronounced dead and have been revived to tell their tale. The surge of electrical activity must therefore have preceded their "death", in which case ... following on from Parnia ... it would have nothing to do with experiences that follow death. A believer (David will correct me if I'm wrong) would surely argue that the spirit leaves the body after the electrical surge ... and this would tie in with the claim made by some NDE-ers that they had died but were "sent back". I'm not arguing that there is a spirit or an afterlife. I have no idea. I'm simply pointing out that while scientific observations may be objective, the conclusions drawn from them by scientists and journalists remain purely subjective.

Spirituality and the Brain

by David Turell @, Tuesday, June 01, 2010, 01:51 (5288 days ago) @ dhw

An article in today's Sunday Times has the headline: That's not the afterlife ... it's a brainstorm. The subheading, under Science, is: > 
> Near-death experiences may be caused by a cascade of electrical activity in the dying brain, reports Jonathan Leake.A believer (David will correct me if I'm wrong) would surely argue that the spirit leaves the body after the electrical surge ... and this would tie in with the claim made by some NDE-ers that they had died but were "sent back". -I got the article thru the internet and am not impressed. Parnia (the seven-hundred patient study in Britain)had the most appropriate comment:
"In Britain, such research has prompted the launch of the Awareness During Resuscitation study, known as Aware, led by Sam Parnia, an intensive care physician at Cornell Medical Center in New York, who is also a researcher at Southampton University's school of medicine. -Parnia believes Chawla's research is interesting, but treats its conclusions with caution, pointing out that there is no proof that the electrical surge observed by Chawla is linked to a near-death experience. -"Since the patients all died, we cannot tell what they were experiencing," he said."-With all the studies that have been reported with flat EEG waves, I would think the surge would have been noted before, but it was not. Perhaps Chawla's patients are a different group, as he knows of 57 who died and none 'came back'.

Spirituality and the Brain

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Sunday, March 14, 2010, 21:27 (5367 days ago) @ George Jelliss

Here is another article on how our brains work. -http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/02/21-0-It's nothing particularly to do with spirituality, I just didn't want to open up a new thread unnecessarily.-It seems we think in metaphors.-This may also be relevant to the thread on mathematics:
QUOTE: "And in doing arithmetic, students who used their hands to group numbers together had an easier time doing problems that required conceptual grouping. This is predicted by the analysis of mathematics in Where Mathematics Comes From by myself and Rafael Núñez where we show how mathematics from the simple to the advanced is based on embodied metaphorical cognition"-QUOTE: "My Berkeley colleague, Srini Narayanan has shown what computational properties such circuits must have. In still unpublished work, he has shown that the relative timing of first spikes across a synapse predicts the directionality of elementary metaphors in all known cases. The very idea that such low-level phenomena at the level of neurons can result in the vast range our metaphorical thought is truly remarkable."-QUOTE: "Primary metaphorical thought arises when a neural circuit is formed linking two brain areas activated when experiences occur together repeatedly. Typically, one of the experiences is physical. In each experiment, each subject has the physical experience activating one of the brain regions and another experience (e.g., emotional or temporal) activating the other brain region for the given metaphor. The activation of both regions activates the metaphorical link."-I'm sure I've read about this research before, some time ago, but have not seen it expressed so clearly as here.

--
GPJ

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