DHW - Just read Agnostic's Brief Guide. My disagreements are few and trivial. I plan to read more of your material and link to you on my site. - You GOTTA read my book! I'll give it to you and ship it free. Check out my site. http://www.sanityquestpublishing.com/ and email me. - Cary Cook
Greetings from an ally
by David Turell , Sunday, May 25, 2008, 02:15 (6025 days ago) @ Cary Cook
Cary: You sound like lots of fun to quibble with. Hope you'll hang around and join the discussions, or are you just selling your book? Then again, I haven't mentioned it before, but I could offer to sell mine. Yes, really.
Greetings from an ally
by Cary Cook , Sunday, May 25, 2008, 07:19 (6024 days ago) @ David Turell
Convince me that you're a rational truth-seeker, and I'll give you my book, just like I plan to do on Monday to DHW. And speaking of your book, you got a teaser you could show us?
Greetings from an ally
by David Turell , Sunday, May 25, 2008, 18:38 (6024 days ago) @ Cary Cook
Cary: I work only from science and rational conclusions based on science. I do not use the Bible in any sense of proving anything, except they had some great insights, the folks who wrote it. As for my book, it is up to a decision by DHW as to whether he wants to run a book fair.
Greetings from an ally
by dhw, Sunday, May 25, 2008, 22:28 (6024 days ago) @ David Turell
David Turell has left it to me to decide whether the website should become a "book fair"! - I certainly don't want it to become a vehicle for self-advertisement, but we've already had a lot of useful references to websites and books for further research, and having recently read David's book myself, I have found it immensely helpful. You will need to bear in mind his postings as regards panentheism (not the same as pantheism, by the way), because the book often talks of God without a clear definition, but the breadth of knowledge and depth of insight ... particularly as regards the current state of scientific research ... make it a real eye-opener. I'm all in favour of "advertising" it, so may I suggest that David posts the details of his website, and then interested parties can make contact.
Greetings from an ally
by David Turell , Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:04 (6024 days ago) @ dhw
I appreciate the invitation from dhw to present my website for my book. I had not intended to do so, but with dhw's permission I will. I did not want to misuse the privilege of the discussion on this site. The book was published by PublishAmerica in 2004. It is available thru my website (signed, if you wish), from Amazon, and Barnes and Noble and from the publisher. The website: www.sciencevsreligion.net
Introduction expanded
by Cary Cook , Sunday, May 25, 2008, 23:11 (6024 days ago) @ Cary Cook
First let's get the evolution thing out of the way. It's obvious that evolution happens. It's also obvious that dirt has no reason to get organized into self-sustaining and replicating units that become more irritable and frustrated than their component parts, unless some conscious mind screws with either the rules or the molecules. Theistic evolution would account for it. And that's where I'll leave it until I see something that makes better sense - which I admit I'm not looking for, because I'm not a scientist, and even the available data is too much and too complex for me to deal with. - I am, however, a truth-seeker in the sense that I experiment in areas I care about and apply critical thinking to my findings. - Concerning a "God" (definition omitted for brevity), I'm an epistemological agnostic, but not an operational agnostic. i.e. I don't know, but see sufficient reason to place a bet. Not ala Pascal. Pascal was on the right track, but didn't take it far enough. He stopped at the God of the New Testament, and figured that the benefit of betting on this deity and being right would far outweigh the benefit of betting against him and being right. Conversely the punishment for betting against this deity and being wrong ... yada yada. - But the God of Pascal's wager was arbitrary. It could have just (or almost) as rationally been Allah. And Pascal's deity administers rewards or punishments based not on people's ethics but on their believing the right spiritual sales-pitch. Furthermore, those rewards or punishments are both exorbitant and eternal. Those two factors make him not only arbitrary, but unjust and evil. A supposed Creator, who designed our sense of justice, would not likely reward us for worshipping an apparently unjust God. - Take Pascal a step further. What is the most sensible bet a human can make, given the uncertainty of an afterlife? If we need justice, an unjust God can't possibly get us to worthwhile life, so that option is out. - 1. We can bet on no afterlife and grab for the greatest pleasures available with no reason to care for ethics. 2. We can bet on an afterlife with just rewards & punishments, and behave so as to deserve what we want. But what are the odds that a just God is out there, given what we've seen of this planet? Close to zero ... unless there is an afterlife in which everyone gets exactly what he deserves. Only in that case is sufficient justice possible. Since there is no demonstrably reliable evidence for or against an afterlife, there is absolutely no way to judge those odds. - Therefore, I assert that an afterlife with just rewards & punishments is a reasonable bet ... not because of any compendium of allegedly "holy" scriptures, but largely in spite of them all. However, a necessary prerequisite of a just afterlife is to have a just Being in charge of it. Therefore, I bet my money, my ass, and my assumed soul on a just God. - In this position, I have no rational need for Jesus, but experientially I haven't been able to get around him. Therefore, I claim to be Christian in the sense of maintaining a personal relationship with either Jesus, or an imaginary Jesus - no way to know which. But I acknowledge no obligation to believe one damn thing the Bible says. Where I agree with the Bible, it's coincidence.
Introduction expanded
by Curtis , Monday, May 26, 2008, 05:26 (6023 days ago) @ Cary Cook
I must disagree with the statement that the evolution thing happened and we should just get it out of the way. - There is much evidence that life is a very difficult thing to create; painstakingly exact in the most irrelevant detail. If this is true, then the Creator must think highly of us to have gone through such lengths. This speaks to the attributes of a Creator which are important facts. For example, if I were to paint a painting and give it to you, you would consider the amount of effort expended and the detail in the result to measure our relationship (this is the equivalent of "diamonds are a girl's best friend).
Introduction expanded
by David Turell , Monday, May 26, 2008, 16:21 (6023 days ago) @ Curtis
I think that Cary's offhand manner of writing is confusing. I believe the point is that the evidence for an evolutionary process is overwhelming. The real issue is the method by which it was achieved, natural process of chance and selection or a guided/coded DNA/RNA mechanism, just as complicated a process as conjuring up living matter. The next step of inferring just exactly how the Creator viewed all this (trying to apply human emotion to Him) is very problematic. All we can do is guess as we try to humanize a Creator. Saying we are 'here', implying we are the center of all creation, may not be the case. Religiously, we hope that is the case, but is it?
Introduction expanded
by Cary Cook , Tuesday, May 27, 2008, 00:20 (6023 days ago) @ David Turell
Correct. I'll try to tighten up my future posts. I guess I'm too accustomed to talking to Californians.