Paradise (Where is it now?)
by George Jelliss 
, Crewe, Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 15:05 (5441 days ago)
About 1:30 today I put on the radio and caught the end of the News. Someone with a Middle-Eastern accent was describing a picture of the paradise to which Muslim suicide bombers think they are going when they become martyrs. He said something to the effect that "we don't know if such a place exists". I tried to locate the programme on Listen Again, to check that I'd heard right, but unfortunately it is not available. My immediate reaction was "Oh Yes We Do!" It is the pantomime season after all. -There has been some talk here in the past about near-death experiences, which are supposed by some to be a foretaste of Paradise, but I'm not clear how far the religiously inclined contributors think there is an actual Paradise to which people go in some form after death.-I'm quite certain, as much as one can be certain about anything, that Paradise exists in the same sense that Wonderland, Oz, Middle-Earth, Narnia, Looking-Glass-Land, Cloud Cuckoo Land, Brobdingnag, Lilliput, Utopia and other fictitious places of the literary imagination exist. That is they exist only as dreams and fantasies in human minds. That is they do not exist in reality.
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GPJ
Paradise
by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 22:15 (5441 days ago) @ George Jelliss
About 1:30 today I put on the radio and caught the end of the News. Someone with a Middle-Eastern accent was describing a picture of the paradise to which Muslim suicide bombers think they are going when they become martyrs. He said something to the effect that "we don't know if such a place exists". I tried to locate the programme on Listen Again, to check that I'd heard right, but unfortunately it is not available. My immediate reaction was "Oh Yes We Do!" It is the pantomime season after all. > > There has been some talk here in the past about near-death experiences, which are supposed by some to be a foretaste of Paradise, but I'm not clear how far the religiously inclined contributors think there is an actual Paradise to which people go in some form after death. > -What is left out here is the near-death experiences that amount to a waking nightmare or hell; those rarely get as much press! But good luck arguing with Muslims. They'd make Falwell proud if he was still alive...-> I'm quite certain, as much as one can be certain about anything, that Paradise exists in the same sense that Wonderland, Oz, Middle-Earth, Narnia, Looking-Glass-Land, Cloud Cuckoo Land, Brobdingnag, Lilliput, Utopia and other fictitious places of the literary imagination exist. That is they exist only as dreams and fantasies in human minds. That is they do not exist in reality.-I've often wondered where MY religious experience exists. As someone who's been at the minimum an agnostic for 16 years, I always chafed when people like the Pope said I was "less than human." And it is a fact that there is a part of the brain that is dedicated to religious experience... So even though I chafe at the "less than human" comment I have always wondered if I was really missing something... and then it hit me!- Music is the ultimate form of religious experience for me. The right song in the right frame of mind (like a prayer) is a magical communication of one person's experience to another... and for me it is a drug that continuously compels me to find new experiences. -If you ever studied Western Hermeticism, you also realize that "magic" as it is often put is an attempt to recreate an exact emotional state for another person. These are the kinds of things that for obvious reasons--materialism doesn't handle very well, because they are all arts, and not sciences.
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\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"
\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"
Paradise
by George Jelliss , Crewe, Thursday, December 31, 2009, 00:08 (5441 days ago) @ xeno6696
I was able to Listen Again to the 1:00 News this evening (it is available for 7 days). The speaker was the Pakistani author Mohanmmed Hanif who wrote a satirical novel "A Crate of Exploding Mangoes" about the death of General Zia. There is a review here from 2008:-http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/a-case-of-exploding-mangoes-by-mohammed-hanif-836317.html -He was describing a wall painting found in a Taleban hideout. His actaul words were: "We don't really know if the heaven of their dreams really exists". To me this just shows how even the most intelligent people just cannot escape childhood indoctrination.- On another matter entirely:-Matt/xeno writes: "If you ever studied Western Hermeticism, you also realize that "magic" as it is often put is an attempt to recreate an exact emotional state for another person. These are the kinds of things that for obvious reasons--materialism doesn't handle very well, because they are all arts, and not sciences."-Strangely enough I have studied Hermeticism to some extent. By coincidence I happened to be looking into "The White Goddess" by Robert Graves today, and in a discussion about the Unicorn and the White Hart (which are said by Hermetics to symbolise spirit and soul) I came across this statement: "The Hermetics were neo-Platonists who patched their philosophic cloaks with shreds of half-forgotten bardic lore."-Not relevant to the discussion perhaps, but such coincidences amuse me.
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GPJ
Paradise
by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Thursday, December 31, 2009, 16:35 (5440 days ago) @ George Jelliss
I was able to Listen Again to the 1:00 News this evening (it is available for 7 days). The speaker was the Pakistani author Mohanmmed Hanif who wrote a satirical novel "A Crate of Exploding Mangoes" about the death of General Zia. There is a review here from 2008: > > http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/a-case-of-exploding-mango... > > He was describing a wall painting found in a Taleban hideout. His actaul words were: "We don't really know if the heaven of their dreams really exists". To me this just shows how even the most intelligent people just cannot escape childhood indoctrination. > > > On another matter entirely: > > Matt/xeno writes: "If you ever studied Western Hermeticism, you also realize that "magic" as it is often put is an attempt to recreate an exact emotional state for another person. These are the kinds of things that for obvious reasons--materialism doesn't handle very well, because they are all arts, and not sciences." > > Strangely enough I have studied Hermeticism to some extent. By coincidence I happened to be looking into "The White Goddess" by Robert Graves today, and in a discussion about the Unicorn and the White Hart (which are said by Hermetics to symbolise spirit and soul) I came across this statement: "The Hermetics were neo-Platonists who patched their philosophic cloaks with shreds of half-forgotten bardic lore." > > Not relevant to the discussion perhaps, but such coincidences amuse me.-Relevant enough--but the dying art of psychotherapy also serves more good than drugs, and much of Jungian thought is related to occultism and hermeticism. Instead of working through problems our society seeks escapism in antidepressants. -I'll avoid the obvious pun here detailing affairs and states.
--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"
\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"
Paradise
George: There has been some talk here in the past about near-death experiences, which are supposed by some to be a foretaste of Paradise.-As Matt points out, some of these experiences are far from paradisal, but in any case the pleasant ones that I've read about talk mainly of a deep feeling of peace and love. I can think of nothing more peaceful than a dreamless sleep, which would make the state of death perfectly OK with me. The only unpleasant elements then would be the process of dying (we all dread a messy death) and the grief of those left behind. But a dreamless sleep eliminates identity. Is there anything, though, other than a dreamless sleep that we could conceive of as being bearable for all eternity? To be oneself, to love and to be loved, to listen to Beethoven, to eat chocolate, to score a century/take five wickets (cricket feats for the deprived among you), to score the winning goal (easier to understand?), to hear children laughing, to watch the sun set behind the mountains....over and over and over and over again, without end? It's their transience that makes these experiences so special, just as we need BBella's contrast of dark and light to set things off against one another. Endlessness, even without suffering, sounds to me like an unbearable prospect, and if there is a God, I really wonder how he can cope, other than by constantly devising new entertainments for himself. So what would all of us do for the rest of time?-George is quite certain that Paradise doesn't exist anyway. For me it's inconceivable, just as a Universal Intelligence, a chance creation of life and the stars, a D-I-Y mechanism for consciousness, a Big Bang from nothing etc. are all inconceivable. But we're told 96% of the universe consists of unknown matter and energy, and I probably only understand about 0.0000001% of the 4% we do know, including human reality. So I'm certainly not qualified to say what's possible.
Paradise
by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Thursday, December 31, 2009, 16:42 (5440 days ago) @ dhw
dhw, > George is quite certain that Paradise doesn't exist anyway. For me it's inconceivable, just as a Universal Intelligence, a chance creation of life and the stars, a D-I-Y mechanism for consciousness, a Big Bang from nothing etc. are all inconceivable. But we're told 96% of the universe consists of unknown matter and energy, and I probably only understand about 0.0000001% of the 4% we do know, including human reality. So I'm certainly not qualified to say what's possible.-I'm reminded of the first Matrix movie, when the Agent discussed the "paradise" that the machines had first concocted for mankind. "We lost a whole batch that year!" He sneered. Humans painted by machines as those who seek and revel in suffering. -A very dark take on the human race, but a poignant one. How much of this isn't shaped by the religions we grew up with? Something tells me that when my Viking ancestors had near-death experiences, it wasn't "peace and love" they were experiencing. -I bet near-death experiences are just as subjective as the literary background that forms our cultures.
--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"
\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"
Paradise
by David Turell , Thursday, December 31, 2009, 20:08 (5440 days ago) @ xeno6696
> I bet near-death experiences are just as subjective as the literary background that forms our cultures.-Susan Blackmore, 'Dying to Live', cited studies and did one of hr own that indicated, if there were a religious connotation to the NDE, it was of the religion the person practiced: i.e., Christians saw Jesus, Hindus their gods, and never a cross-over. -Have a wonderful New Year everyone.
Paradise
by BBella , Thursday, December 31, 2009, 21:59 (5440 days ago) @ dhw
Is there anything, though, other than a dreamless sleep that we could conceive of as being bearable for all eternity?....Endlessness, even without suffering, sounds to me like an unbearable prospect, and if there is a God, I really wonder how he can cope, other than by constantly devising new entertainments for himself. So what would all of us do for the rest of time?-For my own entertainment, while frozen in time nearly 5-7 years, I examined my own beliefs and expectations of the afterlife, and after much interrogation of my thoughts, as you mentioned above, I found nothing I believed from my religious store of knowledge could possibly be satisfying or blissful forever! I then recognized the sense in the belief of an angels rebellion wreaking havoc on innocent earthlings. Obviously, they had done everything else for millions of years, and out of shear boredom, decided to pillage and plunder what was off limits to them...Earthlings! Then I examined the atheist or non-believers thought to take comfort in the idea of deaths finality...it began to make complete sense to me why this belief would be favored for some. If there were an eternal life for the soul, whether in suffering or bliss, it would eventually become static at some point and, as you said above, unbearable...so a final death seemed almost a relief of the mind! -But having more time on my hands, I began to reach further than my religious store and beliefs to try and use my imagination and reach further into what could be an even better answer, or, at least more satisfying to my own mind than death or an unbearable eternity. I asked myself, what "could" make ME happy for all eternity??? That is when reincarnation seemed to work it's way into my imagination. I could begin to see the purpose and value of forgetfulness (if warranted, like here on earth), age, experience, lessons learned, and lives lived for wisdom's sake! Being raised Christian, I had never considered these ideas before..and they seemed to fit well with my process thinking I had already began to actually see with my own eyes. So I began to contemplate how reincarnation could be acceptable and satisfying to my own mental contemplations. I have since expanded the idea of reincarnation being one of many choices of eternity.-I imagined heaven or eternity as the interlude/in-between time/rest stop (I have come to think of as the "home" everyone at sometime in their life becomes "homesick" for) that we dwell in anywhere from a day to a thousand years long...whatever suits us. Like a resting stop to take in all that's been learned and to think about what kind of life lessons one might want to gain in a future life, or whenever or if ever. I thought about this time not being under some religious ideal but being something within a our own souls power and decision making rules....a place free from any rules but ones we would choose for ourselves (who wouldn't get tired of that eventually?). Within this place there would be ways to connect to our soul connections (loved ones), as long as that person was not busy in a new life (the "busy" sign would be up on their connector). There could even be long lived connections where people would design their new lives to live together again but in different roles for different purposes...but all working toward the one ideal of edification and growth of the soul, or whatever is chosen between them for their new adventures. Earth and earth time would not be our only choice's. The choices of what to experience and how to experience it would be as rich as as a mind on full throttle (over the 10% could imagine) and more! These thoughts on heaven aren't set in stone...sometimes I change them.-God on the other hand, in my tiny mind, would not be one gigantic being living vicariously thru these different lives of all beings...but IS all that is...the framework of what IS, and therefore would not have one mind like we imagine in our 10% of a brain, so would not be subject to boredom as our tiny mind is. -> > George is quite certain that Paradise doesn't exist anyway. For me it's inconceivable, just as a Universal Intelligence, a chance creation of life and the stars, a D-I-Y mechanism for consciousness, a Big Bang from nothing etc. are all inconceivable. But we're told 96% of the universe consists of unknown matter and energy, and I probably only understand about 0.0000001% of the 4% we do know, including human reality. So I'm certainly not qualified to say what's possible.-I'm definitely not qualified to say what's possible but I am qualified to imagine what could make me happy, while still here, about my afterlife...and so far, I am pretty happy with this scenario of an afterlife. The more technologically advance we become the more I have to changeup my ideas...because I am thinking, if certain things are already available here on earth then probably the technology is so much more advanced in my in-between time...but no sooner do I imagine it...it becomes available here....
Paradise
BBella imagines an interlude after death, during which we may think about the lessons we've learned from life, perhaps link up again with our loved ones, and eventually choose to be reincarnated ... though not necessarily on Earth ... to enjoy new experiences.-Your ordeal and your recovery from it remain an awe-inspiring example of the power and range of the human mind. I don't think even you can really explain what happened, but it certainly raises the whole question of what constitutes reality. The idea of reincarnation is common to a lot of thought systems (Hinduism, Kabbalah, lots of African religions, and also modern pagan and new age movements), though I don't think I've ever heard of one in which the soul actually makes its own choices. The sceptic in me naturally wonders why the heck I don't remember anything of any past existences, and how I can possibly hope to learn from them if I don't know about them, but then I recall the African boy who "remembered" scenes from the life of a child who had died before him ... an experience told to me by my wife (who is African). This type of memory is echoed in research done by Professor Ian Stevenson, who specialized in the subject. Wikipedia gives what seems to me a very fair account of the pros and cons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson -David's post refers to Susan Blackmore's study, indicating that any religious aspects of NDEs always conformed to the person's own faith. This certainly underlines the subjectivity of the experience (George would call it a delusion), but it could also indicate that the individual soul retains its identity and with it the portion of reality in which it lived, i.e. its memories and its imaginings, its beliefs and its feelings. Consciousness, perhaps, freed from its physical container? -As for the Big T (Origin of Life, 31 December at 22.35), I'm glad to have been of assistance. Assuming, of course, that my insight is to be trusted!
Paradise
by David Turell , Friday, January 01, 2010, 19:21 (5439 days ago) @ dhw
>I recall the African boy who "remembered" scenes from the life of a child who had died before him ... an experience told to me by my wife (who is African). This type of memory is echoed in research done by Professor Ian Stevenson, who specialized in the subject. Wikipedia gives what seems to me a very fair account of the pros and cons: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson - My wife, Susan, as a child dreamed of past relatives, whom she never met, but recognized from pictures later shown to her by her parents. Remember, I've seen her psychic powers in action. Nothing recently, but always amazing when it happens. She does not remember a past life.
Paradise
by George Jelliss , Crewe, Sunday, January 03, 2010, 20:07 (5437 days ago) @ David Turell
DT writes: "My wife, Susan, as a child dreamed of past relatives, whom she never met, but recognized from pictures later shown to her by her parents." -This statement is rather vague, as all these sorts of stories are. Could you be more explicit as to what it was she "dreamed of past relatives". Did she dream their names, or just what they looked like, or some events that happened to them? And why did she think they were "past relatives"? The obvious interpretaion to be put on this experience is that the dream was re-remembered, reinterpreted, reconfigured, not deliberately, but as a normal activity of one's mind, to fit with the new evidence.
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GPJ
Paradise
by David Turell , Monday, January 04, 2010, 00:34 (5437 days ago) @ George Jelliss
DT writes: "My wife, Susan, as a child dreamed of past relatives, whom she never met, but recognized from pictures later shown to her by her parents." > > This statement is rather vague, as all these sorts of stories are. Could you be more explicit as to what it was she "dreamed of past relatives". Did she dream their names, or just what they looked like, or some events that happened to them? And why did she think they were "past relatives"? -She describes as a child giving a description of Uncle Eddie's living room. Uncle Eddie died before she was born. She never saw a picture of that room, but her parents told her what she was describing.-When her paternal grandfather came home from the war (WWII)in the 1940's she described him walking in a white jacket and baggy white pants. She was born in 1958, and knew her grandfather but had never seen those clothes on him. Her parents confirmed the clothing he wore at that time. These are two of the most vivid ones.-And you will remember she can tell me where to look for things, and is most often correct. At my age I can sure forget where I put something down. She also 'knew' a person jumped off the corner wall of a tall building. It was on television a few minutes later. I watched the television, she did not at that moment. Subjective, certainly, but verifiable, just as the NDE patients have had verifiable knowledge of events they could not have known about except during the episode. I've heard a physician from a hospice describe this as occuring any number of times in his experience.-You may not want to accept this, but it is hard to explain by materialism alone.
Paradise
by BBella , Friday, January 01, 2010, 21:41 (5439 days ago) @ dhw
The idea of reincarnation is common to a lot of thought systems (Hinduism, Kabbalah, lots of African religions, and also modern pagan and new age movements), though I don't think I've ever heard of one in which the soul actually makes its own choices. The sceptic in me naturally wonders why the heck I don't remember anything of any past existences, and how I can possibly hope to learn from them if I don't know about them,-I didn't mean to imply we could remember the past lives or adventures and gain insight from them while here in our temporary lives or in other places that we might choose to go when we leave our "home base." Here on earth we come knowing we will forget what was before...for most that is. The lessons learned and remembered would all be done during our rest time or interlude at home in heaven, the in-between time, in order to assess what we gained from each experience. Forgetfulness and birth is part of the package we are choosing to experience specifically when we come to Earth. Maybe in other places we come fully formed without forgetfulness or the timeline of birth and death. The possibilities are as many as our wee 10% brains can imagine!-I've heard of people, and even know a few, who do recall past lives, some have been hypnotized and remembered...but, that really has nothing to do with the basis of my coming to this theory of the home base afterlife. This idea came to me when I was seeking mental comfort from the pain of this life (while frozen in time) and these ideas relieved my mind of anguish, fear and pain, and even brought me physical and mental relief in the here and now...even tho it's about the there and then. Who is to say what is the true reality of life after death or even of the here and now? It's anyone's guess, and truly, nothing can be proven absolutely...so my theories/fantasies are as good as anyone elses... - > > As for the Big T (Origin of Life, 31 December at 22.35), I'm glad to have been of assistance. Assuming, of course, that my insight is to be trusted!-Trust is the big T for me...I own it now. Of course, as always, I'm wide open to the process of change so it may not be my big T in 1 or 10 years...but for now, it works!
Paradise
BBella: Who is to say what is the true reality of life after death or even of the here and now? It's anyone's guess. And truly, nothing can be proven absolutely...so my theories/fantasies are as good as anyone else's...-Quite right. None of us, including scientists, can do more than look at what facts we have, build our theories to fill in the gaps, and adjust our theories as new facts emerge. Of course we differ as to what constitutes facts ... some people refuse to accept other people's subjective experiences, for instance, even if such experiences can be multiplied many times over. That's their prerogative, just as it's my prerogative to keep an open mind, and yours to place your trust in what has happened to you. -Bearing in mind that neither of us can do more than speculate on this particular subject, I wonder what you see as being the outcome of the afterlife you describe. Is there any purpose behind the reincarnations? If so, how could it be fulfilled if our identity was lost through forgetfulness? And what would happen once the purpose had been achieved? For me, the idea of an afterlife without my identity seems as irrelevant as a god who has lost interest in his creation. But on the other hand, if we keep our identity and go to other places "fully formed without forgetfulness", we're back to the old question of what we're supposed to do with ourselves after the homebase interlude of assessment. Either way, we're confronted with the problem of purpose and post-achievement or, alternatively, purposeless worlds without end. Perhaps your answer will be that "the possibilities are as many as our wee 10% brains can imagine". My own wee and considerably less than 10% brain has difficulty imagining any everlastingly bearable possibilities, just as it can't imagine eternity or infinity, self-assembling universes and life, a universal intelligence that's been around for ever...What I can imagine without any trouble at all is a peaceful, dreamless sleep in the earth. But the limitations of my imagination can scarcely count as evidence of any kind of truth, so I'll be interested in whatever theories you come up with!
Paradise
by George Jelliss , Crewe, Saturday, January 02, 2010, 21:17 (5438 days ago) @ dhw
It's true that we can all make speculations, but what's the point if there is no evidence? Without that it's all just fiction. What we do know about chemistry indicates that when we die our bodies disintegrate into their atoms (even faster if cremated), and that our personas cease because they depend on the structure and interactions of the molecules, all of which is lost. I can imagine that when I die some psi-factor, hitherto unknown to science, that records my persona in the hitherto undetected psi-field will emerge and float like a ghost through the cosmos until it becomes absorbed in the great Psi-Mind in the Crab Nebula, and so on and so forth. But I know this is science fantasy. Far more likely is that such phenomena have not been detected because they do not exist, and that death comes as the end.
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GPJ
Paradise
George: It's true that we can all make speculations, but what's the point if there is no evidence?-As usual, this depends on what you accept as evidence. For a materialist like yourself, who believes there is nothing beyond the physical world, subjective experience is not acceptable. If you were confronted with the hundreds of thousands of people down through the ages who claim to have experienced mystic or psychic phenomena, reincarnation, spiritualism, near-death journeys into another world etc., you would remain convinced that every authenticated experience could be explained "naturally", and that the rest of the mob were deluded, mad, fraudulent, drunk or drugged. You have no doubt that even though scientists are still unable to explain how globules of matter can produce consciousness, subconsciousness, memory, thought, emotion etc., eventually science will crack the code and come up with a physical explanation. Personally, I don't have a problem with this. It is absolutely right and proper that you should believe whatever you want to believe, and you are free to pick and choose which evidence you consider acceptable and which you do not. Similarly, others are free to accept subjective experience as valid ... particularly when it's their own ... while those of us who remain open-minded will continue to respect both views.-Therefore, I would only dispute statements like: "Without that it's all just fiction", and: "But I know this is science fantasy." The first statement swallows its own tail, since you choose to dismiss the "evidence", and the second is not a matter of knowing but of believing.
Paradise
by George Jelliss , Crewe, Sunday, January 03, 2010, 19:52 (5437 days ago) @ dhw
I wrote: It's true that we can all make speculations, but what's the point if there is no evidence?-dhw responds: As usual, this depends on what you accept as evidence. For a materialist like yourself, who believes there is nothing beyond the physical world, subjective experience is not acceptable. -I'm only a materialist, i.e. a believer in the truth of chemistry, because that's what the evidence leads to. This does not exclude my being also a mystic, if evidence of such ideas is forthcoming. For instance as a student of mathematics I am attracted to the somewhat mystical properties of numbers, and some quantum theory seems to be a spooky, as someone has said. Subjective experience, that is not communicable, verifiable, reproducible, is not acceptable as evidence of reality for anyone, whether materialist or not, because it is irrational.-dhw: If you were confronted with the hundreds of thousands of people down through the ages who claim to have experienced mystic or psychic phenomena, reincarnation, spiritualism, near-death journeys into another world etc., you would remain convinced that every authenticated experience could be explained "naturally", and that the rest of the mob were deluded, mad, fraudulent, drunk or drugged. -The evidence does point that way.-dhw: You have no doubt that even though scientists are still unable to explain how globules of matter can produce consciousness, subconsciousness, memory, thought, emotion etc., eventually science will crack the code and come up with a physical explanation. -In my view science already has reasonably adequate explanations of most of these phenomena, and these are improving all the time. -dhw: Personally, I don't have a problem with this. It is absolutely right and proper that you should believe whatever you want to believe, -It is not a matter of believing what I want to believe. It is a matter of what is real. No-one can rationally claim reality for something that is based on their subjective experience. -dhw: ... and you are free to pick and choose which evidence you consider acceptable and which you do not. -If this was the case how would we ever arrive at any objective knowledge at all! -dhw: Similarly, others are free to accept subjective experience as valid ... particularly when it's their own ... while those of us who remain open-minded will continue to respect both views.-Certainly you are free to accept subjective experience as "valid" whatever that means, valid as poetry perhaps, but not as real knoweldge.
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GPJ
Paradise
by BBella , Tuesday, January 05, 2010, 01:01 (5436 days ago) @ George Jelliss
It's true that we can all make speculations, but what's the point if there is no evidence? Without that it's all just fiction. -Many of us do not need absolute evidence to believe (as you know). I have looked at both possibilities and read what is considered evidence on both sides. But the choice I made to believe in an afterlife really had nothing to do with any information I gathered on either side. My reason or point, at that time, for believing in an afterlife came down to my facing the possibility of my death at an earlier age than what I expected would be my allotted time here..and having plenty of time to ponder it...I did. I had to quit looking outside myself at others perspectives (finding nothing to ease my mind) and start looking inside for the possibility of something that could ease my mind and body. For some reason, unknown to me, the idea of an afterlife eased my mind, and so I began to explore my imagination to expand on just what an afterlife might be like. I have kept that belief (not set in stone of course) for the same reason or point...because it brings ease to my mind and body. -Of course there is a 50/50 chance this belief is not true...but there is that possibility that there is an afterlife. As long as there is even 1% possibility it might be true, there is nothing wrong in our using our God(?) given imagination to play with the idea. -My question is this...if there truly IS an afterlife...how would we know it? How could it be proven there truly is one since we only find out after death?
Paradise
by BBella , Tuesday, January 05, 2010, 00:38 (5436 days ago) @ dhw
Bearing in mind that neither of us can do more than speculate on this particular subject, I wonder what you see as being the outcome of the afterlife you describe. Is there any purpose behind the reincarnations? -Thank you for the indulgence dhw! The ultimate purpose that I came up with during the time of my illness, and still sticks with me to this day, is that if (and that's the million dollar question) the consciousness is eternal, then obviously we have found a way to live within the confines of eternity without eternal boredom. There would only be an outcome if there was an end...and being that we could be eternal beings there would be no end so no ending or eventual outcome would be expected. ->If so, how could it be fulfilled if our identity was lost through forgetfulness? -During the in-between time, or afterlife, everything would be remembered from every life and every adventure. Only when we reincarnate back on earth, or visit somewhere forgetfulness is purposely used to forget, would we not remember our true identity. ->And what would happen once the purpose had been achieved? -The ultimate purpose, as I mentioned above, would be to escape eternal boredom, that would be the main achievement of these temporal forgetful experiences. No other ultimate final achievement of purpose other than escaping boredom would be as important...but that's not to say there is not some sort of automatic changing to higher levels with wisdom gained (suggested by some religious thinking)...that's always a possibility too. Again, I'm only working with 10% or less of mentality here. -To my small mind, there is a 50/50 chance there is an afterlife. Since this is true, I only have two outcomes to ponder. With one outcome there is nothing really to ponder. But, on the other hand, if there is and afterlife, then more than likely I am an infinite being having a finite experience. What more could an infinite being ask for than temporary forgetfulness to address the constants? If I am a temporal being, then what's the harm in imagining this life is not all there is? Whichever be true, what IS is what IS. We, as earthly, finite beings, have yet to figure out what we are. So again, my guess is as good as any! The main thing is it makes me feel good to think I am an infinite being having a finite experience...and to each his own, as long as it harms no one. If it makes you feel good to imagine a dreamless sleep, or a final end in death, etc., then believe what you will. This may be the only place in the universe we can come and know very little about who or what we are and what we are doing here and still have a pretty good time..or not.
Paradise
BBella: To my small mind, there is a 50/50 chance there is an afterlife. Since this is true, I only have two outcomes to ponder. With one outcome there is nothing really to ponder. But, on the other hand, if there is an afterlife, then more than likely I am an infinite being having a finite experience.[...] Whichever be true, what IS is what IS. We, as earthly, finite beings, have yet to figure out what we are. So again, my guess is as good as any! -This seems to me an excellent summary of our situation. As an agnostic, I go along with your 50/50, as I do with your observations that we have yet to figure out who we are, and that if there is no afterlife there is nothing to ponder. A peaceful, dreamless sleep is nothing to fear, and it's only life itself and the process of dying that threaten us. In that case, paradise and hell are here on Earth, and I would even go so far as to suggest that earthly transience is a vital element of both. I can't visualize any pleasure of any kind remaining pleasurable for ever, but the transience of all things is also a cause of pain. One's sympathies lie with those who have never experienced the paradisal elements and for whom there will be no consolation except the end of suffering and the peace of oblivion. -On the other hand, if there is an afterlife, there are all kinds of things to ponder ... not least, the nature of the intelligence that must have set up such a system. 1) Is it still around? 2) Is it benign? 3) Is it judgemental? 4) Will we even find out? And what is the nature of the system itself? There's a pleasing logic in your vision of rest periods, new lives maybe in different worlds, forgetfulness if necessary etc. ... all part of the quest to avoid boredom (which may well have been God's motive for creation in the first place). The search for truth could be a common point between earthly and unearthly paradises. We need it as a focal point, a purpose. It's one of the mysteries that keep us "entertained", so it might be continued in your other lives/worlds as well. Whether such a scenario is "fiction" or "science fantasy", to quote George, we may never know, or ... as you remark in your post to him ... we shan't know till our bodies are dead, but there are certainly enough unanswered questions to throw a 50% doubt on all the speculations, which of course include materialism. And so once again I can do no better than echo you: "to each his own, as long as it harms no one."
Paradise
by George Jelliss , Crewe, Wednesday, January 06, 2010, 16:56 (5434 days ago) @ dhw
Both BBella and dhw claim that the existence or not of an afterlife is a 50:50% possibility. On what grounds? I would say it is pretty close to 0:100% with a very small error bar. All mental phenomena can be adequately explained in terms of chemistry and physics. The chances of there being some as yet undetected ghost-or-spirit-field interacting in some way with matter is negligible. No coherent theory of its working has ever been put forward. -dhw wants to know what "real" knowledge is. It is knowledge based on evidence. Reproducible, verifiable evidence. -dhw claims that "Just about every emotion we feel is subjective and entails some of the most profound realities of our existence."-Such emotions may be described as personal but they are not subjective, they are real. Evidence for their existence in available, from brain-scans and observation of behaviour for example, as well as personal testimony. Subjectivity lies in the interpretation of experiences in terms that will suit ones wishes or ones expectations. -dhw seems to think that these real experiences are "... realities which science cannot cover." Far from it. It's just that dhw has a bit of a down on science, possibly from some bad experience with a science teacher at school?-dhw claims that: "... "paranormal" perceptions are unquestionably real to many who experience them, and in some cases even provide information supported by independent observers."-I agree they may be real experiences, although many have been shown to be fraudulent claims, but I know of no cases where the supposed information cannot be explained to have arisen by other means. If paranormal phenomena are real, surely it is possible to bring about far more convincing demonstrations than those practiced by spiritualists!
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GPJ
Paradise
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 06, 2010, 17:18 (5434 days ago) @ George Jelliss
> I agree they may be real experiences, although many have been shown to be fraudulent claims, but I know of no cases where the supposed information cannot be explained to have arisen by other means. If paranormal phenomena are real, surely it is possible to bring about far more convincing demonstrations than those practiced by spiritualists!-I know the study is not complete, but why are you ignoring the fact that a hospice study is underway to look at just this issue of obtaining informaion during an NDE? Spending millions of research dollars, pounds, etc., because it is so unbelievable?
Paradise
by George Jelliss , Crewe, Wednesday, January 06, 2010, 17:28 (5434 days ago) @ David Turell
> > I agree they may be real experiences, although many have been shown to be fraudulent claims, but I know of no cases where the supposed information cannot be explained to have arisen by other means. If paranormal phenomena are real, surely it is possible to bring about far more convincing demonstrations than those practiced by spiritualists! > > I know the study is not complete, but why are you ignoring the fact that a hospice study is underway to look at just this issue of obtaining informaion during an NDE? Spending millions of research dollars, pounds, etc., because it is so unbelievable?-Who is carrying it out? What sort of information do they expect to obtain? I'll wait until they report definite results before passing comment.
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GPJ
Paradise
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 06, 2010, 19:42 (5434 days ago) @ George Jelliss
edited by unknown, Wednesday, January 06, 2010, 20:20
> > > I agree they may be real experiences, although many have been shown to be fraudulent claims, but I know of no cases where the supposed information cannot be explained to have arisen by other means. If paranormal phenomena are real, surely it is possible to bring about far more convincing demonstrations than those practiced by spiritualists! > > > > I know the study is not complete, but why are you ignoring the fact that a hospice study is underway to look at just this issue of obtaining informaion during an NDE? Spending millions of research dollars, pounds, etc., because it is so unbelievable? > > Who is carrying it out? What sort of information do they expect to obtain? I'll wait until they report definite results before passing comment.-I've googled the study, but can't find it as yet, but I suggest you look the the following two sites:-http://www.nderf.org/FAQs.htm-http://caringfortheaged.suite101.com/article.cfm/during_and_after_death-This is the original announcement I saw:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080910090829.htm-The main research physician is Sam Parnia:-http://www.scimednet.org/library/articlesN75+/N76Parnia_nde.htm-You might look at the book he has published (2005):-http://www.amazon.com/What-Happens-When-Die-Groundbreaking/dp/1401907105
Paradise
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 06, 2010, 22:42 (5434 days ago) @ David Turell
> > Who is carrying it out? What sort of information do they expect to obtain? I'll wait until they report definite results before passing comment. > > I've googled the study, but can't find it as yet, but I suggest you look the the following two sites:- Another site with one of Parnia's abstracts:-http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/abstracts?terms1=Sam+Parnia&terms2=&terms3=&terms4=sam+s-adenosylmethionine+parnia+
Paradise
GEORGE: All mental phenomena can be adequately explained in terms of chemistry and physics.-In his post under 'Just for Matt' on Wed 6 January at 00.19, Matt drew our attention to a fascinating article about a Professor Henry Markram, who has attracted vast sums of money to finance his project to build an artificial mind. The article contains the following quote:-"Of course consciousness is one of the deepest scientific mysteries. How do millions of tiny electrical impulses in our heads give rise to the feeling of self, of pain, of love? No one knows."-Apparently he's wrong. George knows.-I pointed out that our emotions were both subjective and real. In response George writes: "Such emotions may be described as personal but they are not subjective, they are real." Here are two dictionary definitions of subjective: 1) based on personal opinions or feelings rather than on facts; 2) existing only in the mind and not independently of it. I'm relieved to hear you agree that such emotions are real, and I would suggest to you that they are both personal AND subjective. But perhaps you can find a better definition of subjectivity than the above. -Gratifyingly, you go on: "Evidence for their existence is available, from brain-scans and observations of behaviour for example, as well as personal testimony." Brain-scans indicate chemical activities within the brain, but they don't tell us anything about actual feelings. However, what pleases me here is your willingness to accept observations of behaviour and personal testimony as evidence. Then perhaps you might also consider observations of behaviour and personal testimony as evidence of the POSSIBILITY (I do not ask for more) that certain so-called "paranormal" experiences may not be explicable in terms of any known reality. You automatically dismiss all such claims, with the argument: "I know of no cases where the supposed information cannot be explained to have arisen by other means." I wonder how many cases you have investigated, bearing in mind the thousands that have been reported (and there are even three of us on this site who are unable to find rational explanations for certain experiences). -Your refusal to contemplate this possibility ties in neatly with your observation that: "Subjectivity lies in the interpretation of experiences in terms that will suit one's wishes or one's expectations." I myself can do no more than speculate, and I am certainly not prepared to offer a particular interpretation of these psychic experiences, but in my subjective judgement your own subjective interpretation, which of course is suited to your materialist expectations, has a 50% chance of being correct.
Paradise
by David Turell , Thursday, January 07, 2010, 20:37 (5433 days ago) @ dhw
GEORGE: All mental phenomena can be adequately explained in terms of chemistry and physics. > > In his post under 'Just for Matt' on Wed 6 January at 00.19, Matt drew our attention to a fascinating article about a Professor Henry Markram, who has attracted vast sums of money to finance his project to build an artificial mind. The article contains the following quote: > > "Of course consciousness is one of the deepest scientific mysteries. How do millions of tiny electrical impulses in our heads give rise to the feeling of self, of pain, of love? No one knows." > > Apparently he's wrong. George knows.-Please see the essay I posted for Matt, under "just for Matt' 1/7/10 at 19:40. It fits your discussion with George.