Liberal vs. Conservative (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Wednesday, October 07, 2009, 16:46 (5525 days ago)

Two different mind-sets are present in Liberals and Conservatives. It is the latter who question Darwin, Global Warming, and express other non-mainstream views. I know this difference colors the discussion here. -I started as a young New Yorker and very liberal. Later very conservative and followed the famous line: if you are not liberal at 20 you have no heart, if not conservative at 40, you have no brain. I know Churchill used this statement, but it goes back before him. Lord Chesterton, perhaps? The following link is like my story, and I am mostly a libertarian at this juncture, one who understands and appreciates the needs for minimal societal rules. In this case the discussion represents how liberal the education establishment is in this country. -http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/swimming_upstream_the_life_of.html

Liberal vs. Conservative

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Saturday, October 10, 2009, 15:13 (5522 days ago) @ David Turell

I know the terms liberal and conservative have very different connotations in the US from the UK, and I don't want to get into political controversy.-You say that "It is the latter [conservatives] who question Darwin, Global Warming, and express other non-mainstream views."-The fact is that in the UK hardly anyone questions the truth of Darwinian evolution, and very few now have any doubts about the truth of global warming, certainly across the main political parties. Any dissent from these views is by a minority of mavericks. If there is any party whose members question the orthodoxies I would say it is the Liberal party over here.-I have the impression that there are two opposite cultures in the US. There was a list in The Times last Thursday of the top twenty-one universities in the world. Thirteen of them are US institutions and five are UK, the others being in Australia, Canada and Switzerland. So US scientists and scholars are outstanding leaders in the world of learning. Yet there is the other side of America consisting of the creationists and antiscience gurus and religious fundamentalists. It's like a split personality.-You quote Churchill about being a liberal when young and a conservative when older, but he was using those terms in a very different context, of the Liberal and Conservative parties in this country early in the twentieth century, probably to justify his crossing the floor of the house from one to the other.
 
My own background is of being brought up in a family that supported the Labour Party and the Cooperative Movement. This was the progressive party of Attlee that brought in the national health service, and gave independence to India. My impression is that Socialism in the US tends to be identified with Communism, and Anti-Americal Activities.

--
GPJ

Liberal vs. Conservative

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 14:19 (5519 days ago) @ George Jelliss

My own background is of being brought up in a family that supported the Labour Party and the Cooperative Movement. This was the progressive party of Attlee that brought in the national health service, and gave independence to India. My impression is that Socialism in the US tends to be identified with Communism, and Anti-Americal Activities.-America and socialism: As a country founded on the principles of Adam Smith, and to this day upholds the Horatio Alger myth as a common theme, I think it would be better to say that the independent nature of Americans is split between helping and doing for yourself. "Before you feed the kids in Africa, feed yourself."

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Liberal vs. Conservative

by David Turell @, Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 19:33 (5519 days ago) @ xeno6696

My own background is of being brought up in a family that supported the Labour Party and the Cooperative Movement. This was the progressive party of Attlee that brought in the national health service, and gave independence to India. My impression is that Socialism in the US tends to be identified with Communism, and Anti-Americal Activities.
> 
> America and socialism: As a country founded on the principles of Adam Smith, and to this day upholds the Horatio Alger myth as a common theme, I think it would be better to say that the independent nature of Americans is split between helping and doing for yourself. "Before you feed the kids in Africa, feed yourself."-Matt is right on. 60-70% of all employment growth in America is in entrepeneurial small business growth. Socialistic central planning has been the reason European countries are so laggard in growth. And allowing in a bunch of foreign workers is leading to grave social conflicts. We have had a fairly good method for the 'melting pot' approach, until the increasing liberal government policies of allowing multiple languages and some recognition of foreign customs.We are not melting so well now. I'm all in favor of English only as the official language. My grandparents, all from Eastern Europe, came here and immediately immersed themselves in English, because they had to. Hispanic kids here have to translate for their parents.-And by the way, I think we need a legal guest-worker program here. What is going on now is nuts. Our economy is supported by the 15 million illegals. I would offer them a g-w program becasue we need them with a clearly defined path to citizenship, if desired.

Liberal vs. Conservative

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 20:07 (5519 days ago) @ David Turell

My own background is of being brought up in a family that supported the Labour Party and the Cooperative Movement. This was the progressive party of Attlee that brought in the national health service, and gave independence to India. My impression is that Socialism in the US tends to be identified with Communism, and Anti-Americal Activities.
> > 
> > America and socialism: As a country founded on the principles of Adam Smith, and to this day upholds the Horatio Alger myth as a common theme, I think it would be better to say that the independent nature of Americans is split between helping and doing for yourself. "Before you feed the kids in Africa, feed yourself."
> 
> Matt is right on. 60-70% of all employment growth in America is in entrepeneurial small business growth. Socialistic central planning has been the reason European countries are so laggard in growth. And allowing in a bunch of foreign workers is leading to grave social conflicts. We have had a fairly good method for the 'melting pot' approach, until the increasing liberal government policies of allowing multiple languages and some recognition of foreign customs.We are not melting so well now. I'm all in favor of English only as the official language. My grandparents, all from Eastern Europe, came here and immediately immersed themselves in English, because they had to. Hispanic kids here have to translate for their parents.
> 
The immigration issue over here is a little overrated. SOME people who came over from Europe learned the language; there's many instances where I remember some stubborn old Italians and Germans who refused to speak english out of pride... it does happen more in Mexican culture, but it is because they identify more strongly with their Mexican heritage than they can with our non-traditional society. The kids are the fulcrum; it doesn't matter if the parents don't adopt the language, only the kids--and THAT hasn't been an issue. -As far as the guest worker program and whatnot... they need to fix the student program as well; most of the foreign engineers we train would rather stay here, but they can't because there is no path to citizenship for them beyond the lottery; we could stop some of the brain-drain that way.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Liberal vs. Conservative

by dhw, Monday, October 12, 2009, 10:40 (5520 days ago) @ David Turell

The website to which David drew our attention: http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/swimming_upstream_the_life_of.html
&... the absurd anomaly of liberalism as extremism, with people falling so far backward in order to make up for past intolerance that now they've become intolerant towards the very values that made them liberal in the first place. I guess a pendulum has to keep swinging. I don't think it's any different in this country. There was an air hostess who lost her job for wearing a cross round her neck. We are fierce defenders of minority rights. For instance, after kids set fire to the trees at the bottom of our garden, we erected a fence with a string of barbed wire at the top. If a trespasser ... let's say a would-be burglar ... were to injure himself climbing our fence, he could sue us.
 
But there's as much conservatism as liberalism. A subversive shift is taking place in our educational system, to which our attention was drawn in August 2008 (under Intelligent Design) by "rightarmover" ... a primary schoolteacher. In particular he mentioned so-called Academies, which replace ordinary schools and are frequently funded by religious bodies whose last concern is to foster tolerance. Faith schools by their very nature are conservative and divisive.-The fact of the matter is that there's a streak of intolerance in most groups that share a belief or a set of values. You can't believe something unless you reckon you're right, and that automatically means you reckon others are wrong. It then becomes a question of degree. I would like to think the vast majority of people are moderate ... prepared to live and let live ... but there's a minority of, for instance, atheists who will shout down theists, and theists who will shout down atheists (not to mention theists who will blow up anybody in order to get to Paradise). Liberal, conservative, socialist, Christian, Muslim. Jew, Hindu, tribalist, football supporter ... each one can be extended to extremism, and each extreme engenders intolerance and conflict. That doesn't mean you shouldn't ally yourself to a group, but every group should have a healthy enough proportion of internal scepticism to respect the rights of others. Here endeth the moderate, tolerant, open-minded agnostic's lesson.

Liberal vs. Conservative

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 14:09 (5519 days ago) @ David Turell

Two different mind-sets are present in Liberals and Conservatives. It is the latter who question Darwin, Global Warming, and express other non-mainstream views. I know this difference colors the discussion here. 
> 
> I started as a young New Yorker and very liberal. Later very conservative and followed the famous line: if you are not liberal at 20 you have no heart, if not conservative at 40, you have no brain. I know Churchill used this statement, but it goes back before him. Lord Chesterton, perhaps? The following link is like my story, and I am mostly a libertarian at this juncture, one who understands and appreciates the needs for minimal societal rules. In this case the discussion represents how liberal the education establishment is in this country. 
> 
> http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/swimming_upstream_the_life_of.html-I'm flatly "middle of the road." Social conservatism is something I hate with a passion, because of fact that it wants to use the government to push cultural and social norms. -Fiscal conservatism is flatly right, but complete Laissez-faire cannot solve all societal problems. (If a business must manage people, who manages the businesses?)-
Individual liberty should be maximized. -While I have no issue with what causes the basic mentality behind modern liberal thought (people need help) I'm more apt to stick to the "tough-love" mentality of "Teach a man to fish." -Libertarian is something I can (almost) support. I disagree with the party's idea of eliminating the Dept. of Education. Standards mean nothing without a body to enforce them. Plus, someone needs to dictate what the national policy is; we need scientists, engineers, and teachers, right? However, left to market forces we will continue to have a glut, because basic research = government research. (There's no marketability of gluon and hadron research, for example.) -I'm more conservative than I would have thought I was 10 years ago, but again; market forces cannot solve all problems.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Liberal vs. Conservative

by David Turell @, Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 19:19 (5519 days ago) @ xeno6696

Two different mind-sets are present in Liberals and Conservatives. It is the latter who question Darwin, Global Warming, and express other non-mainstream views. I know this difference colors the discussion here. 
> > 
> > I started as a young New Yorker and very liberal. Later very conservative and followed the famous line: if you are not liberal at 20 you have no heart, if not conservative at 40, you have no brain. I know Churchill used this statement, but it goes back before him. Lord Chesterton, perhaps? The following link is like my story, and I am mostly a libertarian at this juncture, one who understands and appreciates the needs for minimal societal rules. In this case the discussion represents how liberal the education establishment is in this country. 
> > 
> > http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/swimming_upstream_the_life_of.html
&... 
> I'm flatly "middle of the road." Social conservatism is something I hate with a passion, because of fact that it wants to use the government to push cultural and social norms. 
> 
> Fiscal conservatism is flatly right, but complete Laissez-faire cannot solve all societal problems. (If a business must manage people, who manages the businesses?)
> 
> 
> Individual liberty should be maximized. -
I don't know how you define 'social conservatism'. Looking at your responses I'd say you are leaning well to the conservative side. True conservatives such as Buckley, Podoretz, Irving Crystal, don't push norms. You are thinking of fundamentalist Christians. I think abortion is fine, and an individual decision.
The FC's want to remake the law of the land.-> While I have no issue with what causes the basic mentality behind modern liberal thought (people need help) I'm more apt to stick to the "tough-love" mentality of "Teach a man to fish." -I agree and raised my kids that way. Too much help and control weakens the personality and spirit.--> 
> Libertarian is something I can (almost) support. I disagree with the party's idea of eliminating the Dept. of Education. Standards mean nothing without a body to enforce them. Plus, someone needs to dictate what the national policy is; we need scientists, engineers, and teachers, right? However, left to market forces we will continue to have a glut, because basic research = government research. (There's no marketability of gluon and hadron research, for example.) -I want the Dept. of Ed. to disappear. There are too many gov't mandates, too many non-deserving getting school lunches., and all sorrts of other odd-ball demands, always unfunded by congress. Bussing kids to hell-and-gone for diversity and more equal education has actually not been successful, and simply created white flight. Education was always under local control 'til recently. One of my med partners was a Houston school board member. If you had his insights, you'd agree with me, and he was a confirmed liberal. As for dictating national policy to create specific occupations, no one told me to go to medical school when i was in high school. It won't work at that level, but college and grad school scholarships will work. The WWII GI bill proved that.
>
> I'm more conservative than I would have thought I was 10 years ago, but again; market forces cannot solve all problems. -You are following the usual path for folks in America.

Liberal vs. Conservative

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 19:54 (5519 days ago) @ David Turell

I don't know how you define 'social conservatism'. Looking at your responses I'd say you are leaning well to the conservative side. True conservatives such as Buckley, Podoretz, Irving Crystal, don't push norms. You are thinking of fundamentalist Christians. I think abortion is fine, and an individual decision.
> The FC's want to remake the law of the land.-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_conservatism-This hits what I would define as "social conservatism" and though abortion is a non-issue to me, I'm definitely Libertarian in that dept. This category I broaden out to any social group wishing to dictate a cultural principle into law; this hits both "modern liberals" (in the typical sense of the world) -> 
> > While I have no issue with what causes the basic mentality behind modern liberal thought (people need help) I'm more apt to stick to the "tough-love" mentality of "Teach a man to fish." 
> 
> I agree and raised my kids that way. Too much help and control weakens the personality and spirit.
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > Libertarian is something I can (almost) support. I disagree with the party's idea of eliminating the Dept. of Education. Standards mean nothing without a body to enforce them. Plus, someone needs to dictate what the national policy is; we need scientists, engineers, and teachers, right? However, left to market forces we will continue to have a glut, because basic research = government research. (There's no marketability of gluon and hadron research, for example.) 
> 
> I want the Dept. of Ed. to disappear. There are too many gov't mandates, too many non-deserving getting school lunches., and all sorrts of other odd-ball demands, always unfunded by congress. Bussing kids to hell-and-gone for diversity and more equal education has actually not been successful, and simply created white flight. Education was always under local control 'til recently. One of my med partners was a Houston school board member. If you had his insights, you'd agree with me, and he was a confirmed liberal. As for dictating national policy to create specific occupations, no one told me to go to medical school when i was in high school. It won't work at that level, but college and grad school scholarships will work. The WWII GI bill proved that.
> >-Sholarships definitely work. I'm strongly considering changing my graduate major to Information Assurance as there is a new "Cyber-Scholarship" designed to pay for EVERYTHING for an agreement to work for the feds for each year you took the scholarship. I'd get my Master's for free as well as experience working with Stratcom/NSA/CIA.-The only reason I'm hemming it is the double-whammy of being pigeonholed career-wise as well as working with military bureaucracy.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Liberal vs. Conservative

by David Turell @, Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 20:53 (5519 days ago) @ xeno6696

I don't know how you define 'social conservatism'. Looking at your responses I'd say you are leaning well to the conservative side. 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_conservatism
> 
> This hits what I would define as "social conservatism" -From Wiki:-"The accepted meaning of traditional morality often differs from group to group within social conservatism. Thus, there are really no policies or positions that could be considered universal among social conservatives. There are, however, a number of principles to which at least a majority of social conservatives adhere. Social conservatives in many countries generally: favor the pro-life position in the abortion controversy and oppose embryonic stem cell research; support the death penalty for murder; oppose same-sex marriage and other marriages social conservatives consider the establishment of to be contrary to traditional marriage; and the nuclear family model as society's foundational unit; oppose expansion of civil marriage and child adoption rights to couples in same-sex relationships; promote public morality and traditional family values; oppose secularism and privatization of religious belief; support the prohibition of drugs, prostitution, premarital sex, non-marital sex and euthanasia; and support the censorship of pornography and what they consider to be obscenity or indecency."-For me it is a mixed bag from Wiki. I am for abortion, I want stem cell research in all forms, for the death penalty, oppose same sex marriage, but want civil unions with the same tax and other legal rights. I would legalize drugs, prostitution, and euthanasia. Pornography for those who want it is fine; I would limit avalability by age. I want adoption by traditional married couples.
 
So I don't know how you can 'hate' this category in a lump. There are so many laws with criminality attached, that all of us in a our everyday life are breaking laws. Is this what you hate? I know I do.

Liberal vs. Conservative

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 03:56 (5518 days ago) @ David Turell

I don't know how you define 'social conservatism'. Looking at your responses I'd say you are leaning well to the conservative side. 
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_conservatism
> > 
> > This hits what I would define as "social conservatism" 
> 
> From Wiki:
> 
> "The accepted meaning of traditional morality often differs from group to group within social conservatism. Thus, there are really no policies or positions that could be considered universal among social conservatives. There are, however, a number of principles to which at least a majority of social conservatives adhere. Social conservatives in many countries generally: favor the pro-life position in the abortion controversy and oppose embryonic stem cell research; support the death penalty for murder; oppose same-sex marriage and other marriages social conservatives consider the establishment of to be contrary to traditional marriage; and the nuclear family model as society's foundational unit; oppose expansion of civil marriage and child adoption rights to couples in same-sex relationships; promote public morality and traditional family values; oppose secularism and privatization of religious belief; support the prohibition of drugs, prostitution, premarital sex, non-marital sex and euthanasia; and support the censorship of pornography and what they consider to be obscenity or indecency."
> 
> For me it is a mixed bag from Wiki. I am for abortion, I want stem cell research in all forms, for the death penalty, oppose same sex marriage, but want civil unions with the same tax and other legal rights. I would legalize drugs, prostitution, and euthanasia. Pornography for those who want it is fine; I would limit avalability by age. I want adoption by traditional married couples.
> 
> So I don't know how you can 'hate' this category in a lump. There are so many laws with criminality attached, that all of us in a our everyday life are breaking laws. Is this what you hate? I know I do.-To me, law's only real purpose is to allow exaction of vengeance by the public onto private citizens who harm people or property, or violate individual property rights. The gay marriage thing shouldn't even be an issue; in your own words, a civil union is identical to a marriage. Just call it marriage and get rid of the false distinction. Some religions (obviously) do not have an issue with gay marriage and therefore abrogating this right is an overreach by government for the purpose of instituting a social norm. I would extend this to polygamy; as long as we're talking about individuals that are of legal age to sign a marriage contract, there is no harm done. Our constitution allows the "pursuit of happiness," as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights. Gay marriage doesn't infringe on the rights of heterosexuals.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Liberal vs. Conservative: The Implicit Point Here

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Thursday, October 15, 2009, 00:26 (5518 days ago) @ xeno6696

The main reason I think David brought up this issue is because of an argument often repeated by ID proponents (again, NOT design) that they are being "silenced" in Universities. Having worked in 2 biochem labs (where one of the two was a devout Lutheran) and knowing what I know about Francis Collins... This claim is hot-air.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Liberal vs. Conservative: The Implicit Point Here

by David Turell @, Thursday, October 15, 2009, 01:26 (5517 days ago) @ xeno6696

The main reason I think David brought up this issue is because of an argument often repeated by ID proponents (again, NOT design) that they are being "silenced" in Universities. Having worked in 2 biochem labs (where one of the two was a devout Lutheran) and knowing what I know about Francis Collins... This claim is hot-air-No it isn't. You are speaking anecdotally. I will respond in likewise fashion.Why did did Robert Steinberg have to resign from the Proc. of the Smithsonian, because as editor he let in an ID article? Guillermo Gonzalez could not get tenure because he authored the book Privleged Planet. He is an IDer. Now for real background, read David Horowitz on how liberal college faculties are. Approaches 90%. Places like Hillsdale College are few and far between.

Liberal vs. Conservative: The Implicit Point Here

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Thursday, October 15, 2009, 02:04 (5517 days ago) @ David Turell

The main reason I think David brought up this issue is because of an argument often repeated by ID proponents (again, NOT design) that they are being "silenced" in Universities. Having worked in 2 biochem labs (where one of the two was a devout Lutheran) and knowing what I know about Francis Collins... This claim is hot-air
> 
> No it isn't. You are speaking anecdotally. I will respond in likewise fashion.Why did did Robert Steinberg have to resign from the Proc. of the Smithsonian, because as editor he let in an ID article? Guillermo Gonzalez could not get tenure because he authored the book Privleged Planet. He is an IDer. Now for real background, read David Horowitz on how liberal college faculties are. Approaches 90%. Places like Hillsdale College are few and far between.-Was hoping you'd bring up Sternberg. Sternberg is a DI Lie. -http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=six-things-ben-stein-doesnt-want-you-to-know&page=2-Section 4: The man NEVER worked for the Smithsonian in the first place. -Don't know about the other ones, but you need to divorce yourself from that evil organization. DI == Liars.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Liberal vs. Conservative: The Implicit Point Here

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Thursday, October 15, 2009, 16:45 (5517 days ago) @ xeno6696

The main reason I think David brought up this issue is because of an argument often repeated by ID proponents (again, NOT design) that they are being "silenced" in Universities. Having worked in 2 biochem labs (where one of the two was a devout Lutheran) and knowing what I know about Francis Collins... This claim is hot-air
> > 
> > No it isn't. You are speaking anecdotally. I will respond in likewise fashion.Why did did Robert Steinberg have to resign from the Proc. of the Smithsonian, because as editor he let in an ID article? Guillermo Gonzalez could not get tenure because he authored the book Privleged Planet. He is an IDer. Now for real background, read David Horowitz on how liberal college faculties are. Approaches 90%. Places like Hillsdale College are few and far between.
> 
> Was hoping you'd bring up Sternberg. Sternberg is a DI Lie. 
> 
> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=six-things-ben-stein-doesnt-want-you-t... 
> Section 4: The man NEVER worked for the Smithsonian in the first place. 
> 
> Don't know about the other ones, but you need to divorce yourself from that evil organization. DI == Liars.-And Francis Collins' views are NOT an anecdote. He is a highly respected molecular biologist and process theology advocate. No one "silences" him.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Liberal vs. Conservative: The Implicit Point Here

by David Turell @, Thursday, October 15, 2009, 17:59 (5517 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by unknown, Thursday, October 15, 2009, 18:06

The main reason I think David brought up this issue is because of an argument often repeated by ID proponents (again, NOT design) that they are being "silenced" in Universities. Having worked in 2 biochem labs (where one of the two was a devout Lutheran) and knowing what I know about Francis Collins... This claim is hot-air
> 
> No it isn't. You are speaking anecdotally. I will respond in likewise fashion.Why did did Robert Steinberg have to resign from the Proc. of the Smithsonian, because as editor he let in an ID article? Guillermo Gonzalez could not get tenure because he authored the book Priveleged Planet. He is an IDer. Now for real background, read David Horowitz on how liberal college faculties are. Approaches 90%. Places like Hillsdale College are few and far between.-Matt: You missed the point of my comments above. You approached me anecdotally with your anecdotes, so I responded in like fashion. Anecdotes prove nothing, but always sound good. I'm glad your hatred of DI lead me to see some of the info about Sternberg; I was so peripherally knowledgeable, I though he was Steinberg. The main point I have made and you ignored is the 90% liberal slant in academia's faculties. As you know I don't care one wit about DI's Christian agenda but with my set of beliefs there are few places where I could gain tenure to teach at the college level. Based on email from my first book, I have had messages from faculty about how they have to hide their opinions or lose their tenure track. Leftist approach has always been to take over education as one of the first moves togain control. The 60's hippies are now the current older faculties.

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