Code, Information, and Design (Evolution)

by Matt @, Monday, March 24, 2008, 17:41 (6086 days ago)

I find problems to exist not just in single explanations of each subject respectively, but in the combination of several elements. We know that information exists in atomic particles. But how an atom can "know" it's being observed by an outside source is amazing by itself. - The problems to consider, in my humble opinion, are how these pieces "know" to fit together. How does the information in DNA "know" to attach itself to the DNA strand? Why, when I look at a mountain in the distance; the information which is carried at the speed of light to register in my brain, does it not conflict with the other information coming from the mountain behind me? How does my eyeball "know" to pick up only the information I'm looking at? - Quantum theories have proven that science isn't really objective observance of natural phenomena after all. Observation can and does change the outcome of an otherwise "normal", repeatable occurrence. Therefore, science subjects, and is in itself subjective. This subjectivity IS the reality we live in...there is no such thing as the objective observer. - I agree that information is an issue. What carries the information isn't. Since we are all made of energy on an atomic level, we are all made of "information". The physical, observable part of that structure is what science studies; whether it be DNA, or atoms, or whatever. Science cannot study unobservable phenomena. However... everyone knows it's there. As technology develops and allows scientists to look further into what used to be considered unobservable, we are becoming even more baffled by what we're finding. It's as if the simplest of organisms and particles are capable of not only responding to stimuli, but are free thinking agents of which the observable world is the byproduct. - It could be said that the Intelligent Designer(s) are the building blocks themselves, creating what we see around us everyday. Just as a large city is the byproduct of little people running around with information, and the information stems from the architectural blueprints, and the blueprints a design approved by a panel of people, and so on. The idea of intelligent design then continues backwards, completely observable, until it hits the proverbial wall. - Where do we get it? We have identified a plethora of carriers, but have never given a reasonable explanation for the how or where information originates. - Dawkins' arguments of "who designed the designer?" are moot. The smartest people in the world can't even figure out how to put an energy efficient, cost effective vehicle on the road. However, they're smart enough to "know" that there is no God. The most basic, necessary, and applicable of inventions cannot be solved even with the materials and technology available...But the origin of the universe, life, and the endearing, quintessential question of "WHY"... Hey no problem. - It shows me the lack of respect people like Dawkins have, even for their own predecessors. It smacks more of building a religious following than science. I do find it all very interesting. - However, it begs the question from science... Why are we trying so hard to prove the non-existence of something that isn't there anyway? If an intelligent designer isn't there, we couldn't prove its non-existence. - It is the right of science in my opinion, to explain away the observable...to take all the mystery and "magic" out of life. If an Intelligent Designer does exist, it would certainly not reveal itself outright. We would just rationalize and explain it away. The fact that the "big questions" continue to elude us is a testimony in and of itself. Science keeps digging deeper, because every layer we uncover, we find more and more evidence of intelligent design. Therefore we must press on, in order to maintain the right to explain away the observable. Without that right, religious fanaticism would exercise its dogma upon the world... However science has taken it one step to far in that its position is to be the objective observer, not take up philosophical arguments based on perceived data. - Science has set a course for its own destruction when and if the empirical evidence finally suggests intelligent design. It's going to be much harder for the smartest people in the world to have to come to grips than the other way around. When and if the evidence suggests intelligent design, would science bend the knee while continuing its efforts to better humanity?

Code, Information, and Design

by David Turell @, Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 01:12 (6086 days ago) @ Matt

"I agree that information is an issue. What carries the information isn't. Since we are all made of energy on an atomic level, we are all made of "information". - Where do we get it? We have identified a plethora of carriers, but have never given a reasonable explanation for the how or where information originates. - 
 However, it begs the question from science... Why are we trying so hard to prove the non-existence of something that isn't there anyway? If an intelligent designer isn't there, we couldn't prove its non-existence. 
 
 It is the right of science in my opinion, to explain away the observable...to take all the mystery and "magic" out of life. If an Intelligent Designer does exist, it would certainly not reveal itself outright. We would just rationalize and explain it away. 
 Science has set a course for its own destruction when and if the empirical evidence finally suggests intelligent design. It's going to be much harder for the smartest people in the world to have to come to grips than the other way around. When and if the evidence suggests intelligent design, would science bend the knee while continuing its efforts to better humanity?" - Matt has provided a very cogent and incisive discussion of the mass of information that is obviously available and at work in nature, and the perverse role science plays in studying it. My own opinion is that the evidence is very strong and getting stronger for intelligent design.

Code, Information, and Design

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Thursday, March 27, 2008, 21:09 (6083 days ago) @ Matt

I've decided to have a go at replying to Matt line by line:
(But the software will only allow me to do so in two parts, since the post is too long). PART 1: - Matt: "We know that information exists in atomic particles." 
GPJ: This of course depends on what you mean by "information" here. 
I may be somewhat old fashioned on this but I would say that there 
is mass and energy in atoms, but it only produces "information" if 
an observer observes it and records the results. - Matt: "But how an atom can "know" it's being observed by an outside 
source is amazing by itself." 
GPJ: It would be but it isn't because it doesn't. - Matt: "The problems to consider, in my humble opinion, are how these 
pieces "know" to fit together."
GPJ: This is more anthropomorphism. They are not conscious beings and don't know anything. - Matt: "How does the information in DNA "know" to attach itself to the DNA strand?" 
GPJ: The information in DNA is coded by the sequence of bases (ACGT). It is physically part of the DNA. How the information is copied from one molecule to another is indeed remarkable. The series of actions to carry this out has all been "programmed" by evolution into the cell's complex chemical system. It is not solely in the DNA itself. - Matt: "Why, when I look at a mountain in the distance; the information which is carried at the speed of light to register in my brain, does it not conflict with the other information coming from the mountain behind me?"
GPJ: I don't quite understand this. It seems to suppose that light can pass through Matt's head and impinge on his retina! - Matt: "How does my eyeball "know" to pick up only the information I'm looking at?"
GPJ: Why should it pick up any other information? You turn your head and the light entering your eyes is light that has come from the direction you are looking. The eye is a directional receiver, like a radar dish. - Matt: "Quantum theories have proven that science isn't really objective observance of natural phenomena after all."
GPJ: Not so. - Matt: "Observation can and does change the outcome of an otherwise "normal", repeatable occurrence." 
GPJ: This is to be expected on sub-atomic scales, because it is impossible to observe without disrupting the system. - Matt: "Therefore, science subjects, and is in itself subjective. This subjectivity IS the reality we live in...there is no such thing as the objective observer." 
GPJ: This is not a justifiable conclusion. Most observations of macroscopic events are perfectly objective. - Matt: "I agree that information is an issue. What carries the information isn't. Since we are all made of energy on an atomic level, we are all made of "information"."
GPJ: This seems to be saying that energy and information are the same thing. This is nonsense. - Matt: "The physical, observable part of that structure is what science studies; whether it be DNA, or atoms, or whatever. Science cannot study unobservable phenomena."
GPJ: Agreed. - Matt: "However... everyone knows it's there." 
GPJ: You speak for yourself! I of course take the view that unobservable phenomena are not phenomena. I'm assuming here of course that you mean "unobservable" in principle, rather than because of our lack of knowledge of how to make the observations or because our current technology is inadequate.

Code, Information, and Design

by David Turell @, Sunday, March 30, 2008, 17:21 (6080 days ago) @ George Jelliss

Jelliss' objections to Matt are pure semantics. Matt stretches quantum theory to make his point, and Jelliss' answers suggest he doesn't fully understand the Copenhagan Convention. Quantum sister particles are 'entangled' and do "know" what the sister is doing. We have to use human terms in order to understand how to describe this. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle recognizes that quantum calcuations are a sum of the average state of individual particles, which can be particles or waves and in varying positions at the same time. Objective reality is what science can perceive of this and measure, but WE ARE NOT MEASURING EVERYTHING, BECAUSE WE CAN'T. The underpinnings of our universe are at this mysterious and basically invisible level. Only very blind faith can assume that science can learn everything there is to learn about the reality we live in. Godel's Theorum proved that mathematically many, many years ago.

Code, Information, and Design

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Thursday, March 27, 2008, 21:11 (6083 days ago) @ Matt

Part 2: - Matt: "As technology develops and allows scientists to look further into what used to be considered unobservable, we are becoming even more baffled by what we're finding." 
GPJ: I agree that quantum world is puzzling, but I don't think we are baffled. I think we have been making good progress in understanding it. - Matt: "It's as if the simplest of organisms and particles are capable of not only responding to stimuli, but are free thinking agents of which the observable world is the byproduct." 
GPJ: That is a rather sweeping supposition! The next two paragraphs, which I've left out, are an elaboration of this fantasy scenario. - Matt: "Dawkins' arguments of "who designed the designer?" are moot. The smartest people in the world can't even figure out how to put an energy efficient, cost effective vehicle on the road. However, they're smart enough to "know" that there is no God. The most basic, necessary, and applicable of inventions cannot be solved even with the materials and technology available...But the origin of the universe, life, and the endearing, quintessential question of "WHY"... Hey no problem." 
GPJ: Actually Dawkins doesn't say there is no God. He says there almost certainly is no God of the interfering type described in the Bible and believed in by most followers of the Abrahamic religions. It may be that there was a designer! As I've suggested in another post the parameters of our universe might have been set by advanced beings (Elohim?) in some previous universe. But the question would still remain, where did they come from in the first place? The most likely explanation is that they evolved. But the really most likely explanation is that they didn't exist and that we evolved. - Matt: "It shows me the lack of respect people like Dawkins have, even for their own predecessors. It smacks more of building a religious following than science. I do find it all very interesting." 
GPJ: I don't see any disrespect for earlier researchers. Quite the opposite. I see no religion building. Again, quite the opposite. - Matt: "However, it begs the question from science... Why are we trying so hard to prove the non-existence of something that isn't there anyway? If an intelligent designer isn't there, we couldn't prove its non-existence." 
GPJ: I disagree, though of course if you are demanding "absolute proof" that is impossible for anything. - Matt: "It is the right of science in my opinion, to explain away the observable...to take all the mystery and "magic" out of life." 
GPJ: I would say "it is the right of science to explain the observable", but why do you put in the word "away"? I don't agree that science takes away any of the magic and mystery from life. In fact I would say the universe uncovered by science over the past century is far more mysterious and magical and full of wonders than the mechanical universe of the late Victorians. - Matt: "If an Intelligent Designer does exist, it would certainly not reveal itself outright. We would just rationalize and explain it away."
GPJ: Why ever not? I'm sure it could make itself known unquestionably, but we might have a lot of questions for it. - Matt: "The fact that the "big questions" continue to elude us is a testimony in and of itself. Science keeps digging deeper, because every layer we uncover, we find more and more evidence of intelligent design." 
GPJ: Nonsense! Most of the old arguments for design have been made redundant. - Matt: "Therefore we must press on, in order to maintain the right to explain away the observable. Without that right, religious fanaticism would exercise its dogma upon the world..." 
GPJ: Away with that "away"! - Matt: "However science has taken it one step to far in that its position is to be the objective observer, not take up philosophical arguments based on perceived data." 
GPJ: I don't agree with this demarkation dispute between scientists and philosophers! We all have the right to philosophise. - Matt: "Science has set a course for its own destruction when and if the empirical evidence finally suggests intelligent design. It's going to be much harder for the smartest people in the world to have to come to grips than the other way around."
GPJ: More nonsense. Should such a discovery be made it would be Nobel Prize material of the first order! - Matt: "When and if the evidence suggests intelligent design, would science bend the knee while continuing its efforts to better humanity?" 
GPJ: That depends who or what this supposed intelligent designer is, and whether he she or it or them can be contacted, and what its future plans for us are. Matt's assumption appears to be that if found the GIT (Grand Intelligent Technologist) will be a benign figure and not a malicious demon or a crazed super-scientist.

Code, Information, and Design

by Matt, Sunday, June 08, 2008, 20:43 (6010 days ago) @ George Jelliss

I agree David. I appreciate your response and time George, but you have yet to give a cogent argument for any of your responses, other than quoting me and picking apart words; which are apparently defined within a very narrow and bias point of view, (I.E. personal interpretation) - Being a scientist by profession, I must take all things pertaining to "knowledge" into consideration. - 300 years ago, the speed of light was thought to be constant. From that time forward, (And I can quote over 20 published scientists, including Einstein) the speed of light seems to be varying, decreasing, or dependent on certain factors. I do not wish to present an argument over the validity of E=mc2, or the SOL theories (although able); just present a point of historical observance in connection to "belief". What one believes to be true will cause a momentum of forward movement toward the object of said belief. Whether that belief is an observable "constant" or an unobservable "cause" matters not; that we all continue to pursue knowledge and "truth" in forward movement, does. And it always takes a person of belief to move forward and not cling to a "known fact". - The point is, what one believes to be "true" may not be "true" in 50 years. Things are not constant, and we are always on the tail end of observation, observing and measuring the results; we then "guess" (or use other fancy scientific words for guessing) at causes. Sometimes a cause is evident, sometimes not. Either way, causes change. - We see craters on the moon, (I was looking at some last night), and we "guess" the moon was hit by meteors. We don't believe that someone dug all those craters. Why not? Because we've observed small meteors hitting the moon for hundreds of years. (Moon Stike) Therefore we guess that the cause of the observable strike is the cause of all other cratoric lunar features. However, this isn't science, it's belief and what most people call blind faith. The scientific community has its own vocabulary to eliminate the stigma belonging to these "buzz-words". We call this a hypothesis or theory. However, a hypothesis is still just an assumption, and what Joe down the street would call "guessing". The fact is as a scientist, I must leave the option open that all craters on the moon are caused by meteors -1. The minus one principle allows for other theories and postulations to be presented without fear of scorn. Scorn causes brilliance to be overshadowed by bias and ignorant arrogance. Even if one crater was caused by something else, then there is a possibility of +1. - I don't wish to bash anyone because I want to spend my time pursuing truth. I like Dawkins, but I find him to be presumptuous and arrogant. - When referring to "God", one has to take into account all belief. However all Abrahamic religions (50-55% of the world's population) subscribe to some theory of a God figure who is directly involved in the creation of the universe. The other 30-35% of Dharmic religions believe in some form of "cause". Only about 2% is atheist, and around 10% is agnostic. No religion in the world has historical belief in a "God" which can be understood or communicated with. All such belief is fairly recent on the world scene and mostly caused by the Westernization of Platonic philosophy. Science also falls into this category historically. The historical atrocities committed in the name of religion birthed a need for the oppressed to throw off religious oppression. The easiest target to attack is this "God" figure, whom close to 90% of the world believe exists; (along with committing the above historical atrocities and then justifying them in the name of said "God".) I am all for throwing off religion, but also don't think that science should equally oppress the belief of any person. All knowledge is useful, but also must handled responsibly. - That being said, since the age of universe is always decreasing with every new observation (it seems); and if the speed of light were a 10billion X's faster during the initial "big bang", it would make a certain amount of sense that people living 6,000 years ago were closer to a younger universe than we are today. It would also make sense to look at what they believed and test it against what we believe to be true today. How will we ever know the truth? Maybe we'll never know, we'll all probably continue to observe and guess... and each of us will choose to believe in whatever we want, according to our understanding. I just appreciate everyone's opinions and observations, and I find them all to be illuminating.

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