Evolution: a different view (Introduction)
by David Turell , Tuesday, April 28, 2015, 15:15 (3496 days ago)
Do we really picture evolution as it really happened, or do we classify animals by prejudiced belief? DNA research is upending evolutionary cladistics relationships.-http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/consider-the-sponge-"Haddock says that ctenophores are now becoming trendy, in part because they appear to be the sister group of all other animals—that is, the earliest clade to have branched off from the main trunk of animaldom, hundreds of millions of years ago. For centuries, that honor had fallen to the sponges, but in 2008 Dunn, a Brown University biologist, compared genes from twenty-nine animals belonging to several phyla and concluded that ctenophores, not sponges, were the first to diverge. “That really raised some eyebrows,” he said. “Some people took that to mean that our analysis was intrinsically flawed.” But more and more evidence has since piled up in support of that view, including the first complete ctenophore genomes.-"This revised tree, with ctenophores on the earliest branch, complicates several once tidy stories about the evolution of animal traits, notably the nervous system. Sponges lack neurons entirely, but their genes seem to allow for chemical signalling of some kind. Ctenophores have nervous systems but lack the genes that other animals use to build neurons and neurotransmitters. If sponges are the earlier of the two clades, the story unfolds neatly: they had the genetic building blocks for a nervous system, which ctenophores elaborated and bilaterians went to town on. But this narrative shatters if ctenophores branched off first. It could mean that they evolved nervous systems independently from all other animals, including us. Meanwhile, sponges either never developed true nerves or started off with nerves and lost them (after all, what need does a sedentary filter feeder have for such an extravagance?).-"This is a much tougher reality to accept. The idea of one group of supposedly primitive animals going off-script and inventing a different nervous system, and then a second group actually losing theirs, is practically unconscionable. “There's a tendency to think that, in the evolutionary lottery, humans lucked out,” Dunn told me. “We have cool articulated skeletons with complex muscles, and brains that we're very proud of.” But the belief in an orderly, stepwise progression—sponge to ctenophore to bilaterian—is “complete rubbish,” he said. “It's deeply flawed, but it's there, inserting its imprint in how we talk and think.'”
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Wednesday, April 29, 2015, 13:18 (3496 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Do we really picture evolution as it really happened, or do we classify animals by prejudiced belief? DNA research is upending evolutionary cladistics relationships.-http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/consider-the-sponge-QUOTE: “The idea of one group of supposedly primitive animals going off-script and inventing a different nervous system, and then a second group actually losing theirs, is practically unconscionable. “There's a tendency to think that, in the evolutionary lottery, humans lucked out,” Dunn told me. “We have cool articulated skeletons with complex muscles, and brains that we're very proud of.” But the belief in an orderly, stepwise progression—sponge to ctenophore to bilaterian—is “complete rubbish,” he said. “It's deeply flawed, but it's there, inserting its imprint in how we talk and think.'”-Thank you for this, which is yet another example of your willingness to share information, regardless of its impact on your own beliefs. I can only commend you for your fair-mindedness!-Once again, this shows that evolution proceeds on its own merry way, with organisms branching off in different directions according to their needs under whatever conditions exist at the time. Innovations, extinctions, sponges, ctenophores, whales, weaverbirds...and all for the sake of humans? The conclusion is a devastating counter to the theory that everything has been planned with one aim in mind. The absence of any “orderly, stepwise progression” is a clear indication that no matter whether God started it all off or not, living organisms make their own history as they cope (or fail to cope) with an ever changing world.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Wednesday, April 29, 2015, 18:51 (3495 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: Thank you for this, which is yet another example of your willingness to share information, regardless of its impact on your own beliefs. I can only commend you for your fair-mindedness!-Thank you, but as usual my interpretation is slightly different. I interpret him as asking whether we should reinterpret our entire approach to evolution, and conceptualize it differently. As DNA studies in various species suggest, evolution may not be strictly a tree of common descent, and morphology alone is not a good classification method. Simon-Morris looks to convergences, Tattersall to exaptation. All reasonable views. There is something that drives living organisms to produce such a strange bush, and we really don't have answers, but lots of just-so stories to support Darwin. Ma, and makes no sense to me and if folks were truly intellectually honest, there is no one with an explanation. > >dhw: Once again, this shows that evolution proceeds on its own merry way, with organisms branching off in different directions according to their needs under whatever conditions exist at the time. Innovations, extinctions, sponges, ctenophores, whales, weaverbirds...and all for the sake of humans? The conclusion is a devastating counter to the theory that everything has been planned with one aim in mind. -I still maintain there is no evolutionary pressure/reason for us to be here. Our cousins the great apes, did just fine until Africa over-populated. They would still be fine in their un-advanced state, if we'd leave them to their own devices.-> dhw The absence of any “orderly, stepwise progression” is a clear indication that no matter whether God started it all off or not, living organisms make their own history as they cope (or fail to cope) with an ever changing world.-Still doesn't explain why the whales took off to be aquatic mammals, a very complex and complicated tangent to evolution. Following your lead in suppositions, perhaps God is like an orchestra conductor/ composer and waves His baton over a cacophony of evolutionary tangential thrusts, laughing all the time.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Thursday, April 30, 2015, 21:06 (3494 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: I interpret him as asking whether we should reinterpret our entire approach to evolution, and conceptualize it differently. As DNA studies in various species suggest, evolution may not be strictly a tree of common descent, and morphology alone is not a good classification method. Simon-Morris looks to convergences, Tattersall to exaptation. All reasonable views. There is something that drives living organisms to produce such a strange bush, and we really don't have answers, but lots of just-so stories to support Darwin. Ma, and makes no sense to me and if folks were truly intellectually honest, there is no one with an explanation.-Agreed, but that doesn't stop us from trying. I don't see convergence or exaptation as complete answers but as part of the answer. The strange bush can be explained by organisms having the ability to work out their own responses to changing environments. Convergence just means different organisms find the same solutions, and exaptations would also be inventive adjustments to existing organs. (See also under "Evolution v Creationism"). Your own just-so story in support of Darwin (you believe in common descent) is preprogramming and/or dabbling by some unknown and unknowable intelligence.-dhw: Once again, this shows that evolution proceeds on its own merry way, with organisms branching off in different directions according to their needs under whatever conditions exist at the time. Innovations, extinctions, sponges, ctenophores, whales, weaverbirds...and all for the sake of humans? The conclusion is a devastating counter to the theory that everything has been planned with one aim in mind. DAVID: I still maintain there is no evolutionary pressure/reason for us to be here. Our cousins the great apes, did just fine until Africa over-populated. They would still be fine in their un-advanced state, if we'd leave them to their own devices.-I wonder what the evolutionary pressure/reason was for the 99% of extinct species, for the whale, for the weaverbird, and for the duck-billed platypus.-dhw The absence of any “orderly, stepwise progression” is a clear indication that no matter whether God started it all off or not, living organisms make their own history as they cope (or fail to cope) with an ever changing world. DAVID: Still doesn't explain why the whales took off to be aquatic mammals, a very complex and complicated tangent to evolution. Following your lead in suppositions, perhaps God is like an orchestra conductor/ composer and waves His baton over a cacophony of evolutionary tangential thrusts, laughing all the time. He doesn't have to wave a baton or laugh. The existence and survival of whales is proof enough that whatever transformations took place were beneficial. On the understanding that all evolutionary change is triggered by the need to survive or the aim to improve, this only becomes a problem if you try to fit it in with your anthropocentrism.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Friday, May 01, 2015, 02:49 (3494 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: I don't see convergence or exaptation as complete answers but as part of the answer. The strange bush can be explained by organisms having the ability to work out their own responses to changing environments. Convergence just means different organisms find the same solutions,-I agree so far, which is why I accept the idea of an IM.-> dhw: exaptations would also be inventive adjustments to existing organs.-Exaptation's appear thousands to hundred of thousand years before any use is found for them. That is a key issue in the idea of pre-planning. -> dhw: I wonder what the evolutionary pressure/reason was for the 99% of extinct species, for the whale, for the weaverbird, and for the duck-billed platypus.-I don't know and I don't think it matters-> dhw: The existence and survival of whales is proof enough that whatever transformations took place were beneficial. On the understanding that all evolutionary change is triggered by the need to survive or the aim to improve, this only becomes a problem if you try to fit it in with your anthropocentrism.-It is a problem for me. Whales chose a very complex way to survive, a very difficult one to invent, if you follow all the changes from a land animal. I frankly see no logic in making survival so complex. That is why I think God did it with whales. I doubt they did it on their own. Maybe it was for Jonah.
Evolution: a different view; convergence
by David Turell , Friday, May 01, 2015, 14:32 (3493 days ago) @ David Turell
Another example of convergence. Swim technique to reach high speed. Reminds me of the discussions we had about patterns of development. think about built-in design guides:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150428151506.htm-"The ability to move one's body rapidly through water is a key to existence for many species on this blue planet of ours. The Persian carpet flatworm, the cuttlefish and the black ghost knifefish look nothing like each other -- their last common ancestor lived 550 million years ago, before the Cambrian period -- but a new study uses a combination of computer simulations, a robotic fish and video footage of real fish to show that all three aquatic creatures have evolved to swim with elongated fins using the same mechanical motion that optimizes their speed, helping to ensure their survival.-"These three animals are part of a very diverse group of aquatic animals -- both vertebrate and invertebrate -- that independently arrived at the same solution of how to use their fins to maximize speed. And, remarkably, this so-called "convergent" evolution happened at least eight times across three different phyla, or animal groups, supporting the belief that necessity played a larger role than chance in developing this trait. The findings could help scientists better understand evolution as well as help pave the way for highly agile underwater vehicles.-"In an article publishing April 28 in the Open Access journal PLOS Biology, the researchers from Northwestern University in Evanston Illinois describe how they studied 22 animals called median/paired fin swimmers, in a wide variety of shapes and sizes. Their elongated fins both undulate, or ripple, lengthwise and oscillate from side to side. For all these animals' fins, the team found that the length of one undulation during swimming divided by the mean amplitude of the sideways movement is always a ratio of around 20."
Evolution: convergence or parallelism
by David Turell , Wednesday, August 09, 2017, 23:39 (2662 days ago) @ David Turell
A book review looks at parallel developments rather than convergence for comparative results:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v548/n7666/full/548156a.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20170...
" Improbable Destinies is deep, broad, brilliant and thought-provoking. Losos explores the meaning of terms such as fate, chance, convergence and contingency in evolution. Why do similar solutions — morphological, genetic and molecular — crop up again and again? He became intrigued by these questions when, as a student, he began to study the Caribbean Anolis lizards, following groundbreaking work by ecologist Thomas Schoener. These lizards inhabit a great range of island sizes and habitats, and tend to evolve similar adaptations and roles in similar circumstances. However, species on different islands that resemble each other aren't each other's closest relatives. Why not?
"The answer, we think, is that closely related lineages have similar genetic components, so under comparable ecological conditions they are likely to produce similar mutations that are then selected for. Many call this convergence; I prefer the term parallelism for closely related lineages. 'Convergence' is appropriate for reinvention in very different groups — the superficially similar wings of birds and pterosaurs, or the elongated grub-seeking fingers of the aye-aye (Daubentonia madagascariensis) and striped possum (Dactylopsila trivirgata). We can catalogue examples all day, but is there any real theory of convergence? We cannot assert that some lineages are 'fated' to converge on these features. Biological ideas of determinism went out with Jean-Baptiste Lamarck in the late eighteenth century.
"Evidence against determinism is the prevalence of creatures whose adaptations have never been duplicated: the kangaroo, the platypus (Ornithorhynchus anatinus), the century plant (Agave americana, which blooms only once in its multidecade life) — and humans. Primates have the equipment apparently needed to evolve flight: arboreal habits, large brains, good coordination and active metabolisms. Yet no primate seems to have evolved gliding, let alone powered flight. No evolutionary duplication is inevitable.
"And how are we to predict these convergences? Losos resurrects palaeontologist Dale Russell's fantastic “dinosauroid” of the 1980s, a conception of what would have happened if bipedal, carnivorous dinosaurs with large brains and grasping hands had been selected for, had the asteroid not struck (Russell accepted the asteroid hypothesis). This three-fingered creature with a huge brain, a beak and chicken feet seems to have inspired the aliens in the 1980s science-fiction television series V, but scientists were uninspired.
"Evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould wondered about the unique, fragile fauna of the Cambrian period (541 million to 485 million years ago) in his 1989 book Wonderful Life (W. W. Norton). Had the period's chordates — which included the ancestors of vertebrates — become extinct, we wouldn't exist. But as Losos points out, it's not a fair comparison: you're not replaying the tape, but running a different one.
"The idea of contingency is perhaps best based on palaeontologist Dolf Seilacher's theory of constructional morphology. In this, features such as the elephant's trunk or the osprey's habit of catching fish with claws rather than beak result from three factors: adaptation (the selective component), evolutionary history (organisms must work with what they've inherited) and construction (how the material properties of living structures empower and constrain their form). From there, history takes over. Evolution is not a preordained, inevitable narrative. Neither is it a crapshoot, with random particulates disporting themselves until something works. Rather, it is like the game Monopoly. Where you go next is in part determined by where you are now; who you are is where you've been (your acquisitions); where you can go is determined by the throw of the dice, with limited possibilities and probabilities."
Comment: This is in direct contrast to Simon Conway Morris who firmly believes convergence is built into evolution. However this book (despite its atheist approach) fits my thought that there are built in patterns which would produce parallel devedlopments.
Evolution: convergence or parallelism
by dhw, Thursday, August 10, 2017, 09:01 (2662 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: "The idea of contingency is perhaps best based on palaeontologist Dolf Seilacher's theory of constructional morphology. In this, features such as the elephant's trunk or the osprey's habit of catching fish with claws rather than beak result from three factors: adaptation (the selective component), evolutionary history (organisms must work with what they've inherited) and construction (how the material properties of living structures empower and constrain their form). From there, history takes over. Evolution is not a preordained, inevitable narrative. Neither is it a crapshoot, with random particulates disporting themselves until something works. Rather, it is like the game Monopoly. Where you go next is in part determined by where you are now; who you are is where you've been (your acquisitions); where you can go is determined by the throw of the dice, with limited possibilities and probabilities."
I would go along with the statement that evolution is not a preordained, inevitable narrative, since the vast higgledy-piggledy bush, with all its comings and goings, so clearly depends on what appear to be random changes in the environment. However, there is no mention here of the biggest problem of all, which is innovation. Every new organ that distinguishes humans from bacteria had to be invented. Ignoring the problem does not make it go away. But perhaps that is unfair and the author does tackle it – I can only comment on what is contained in the review.
DAVID’s comment: This is in direct contrast to Simon Conway Morris who firmly believes convergence is built into evolution. However this book (despite its atheist approach) fits my thought that there are built in patterns which would produce parallel developments.
It stands to reason that organisms faced with similar problems will find similar solutions. Maybe parallelism is a better term, but that’s a minor issue. “Built in patterns” are a crucial factor in the theory of common descent, since they provide the evidence of commonality. A theist might argue that his God provided all the patterns and preprogrammed or dabbled all the variations, or he might argue that his God provided organisms with the ability to invent and vary the patterns all by themselves. An atheist might argue that a limitless number of random combinations eventually resulted in one that led to life and the ability to invent and vary patterns. And an agnostic wrestles with the insoluble problem of origins, shakes his head, and admits to being clueless!
Evolution: convergence or parallelism
by David Turell , Thursday, August 10, 2017, 18:34 (2661 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: "The idea of contingency is perhaps best based on palaeontologist Dolf Seilacher's theory of constructional morphology. In this, features such as the elephant's trunk or the osprey's habit of catching fish with claws rather than beak result from three factors: adaptation (the selective component), evolutionary history (organisms must work with what they've inherited) and construction (how the material properties of living structures empower and constrain their form). From there, history takes over. Evolution is not a preordained, inevitable narrative. Neither is it a crapshoot, with random particulates disporting themselves until something works. Rather, it is like the game Monopoly. Where you go next is in part determined by where you are now; who you are is where you've been (your acquisitions); where you can go is determined by the throw of the dice, with limited possibilities and probabilities."
dhw: I would go along with the statement that evolution is not a preordained, inevitable narrative, since the vast higgledy-piggledy bush, with all its comings and goings, so clearly depends on what appear to be random changes in the environment. However, there is no mention here of the biggest problem of all, which is innovation. Every new organ that distinguishes humans from bacteria had to be invented. Ignoring the problem does not make it go away. But perhaps that is unfair and the author does tackle it – I can only comment on what is contained in the review.
DAVID’s comment: This is in direct contrast to Simon Conway Morris who firmly believes convergence is built into evolution. However this book (despite its atheist approach) fits my thought that there are built in patterns which would produce parallel developments.
dhw: It stands to reason that organisms faced with similar problems will find similar solutions. Maybe parallelism is a better term, but that’s a minor issue. “Built in patterns” are a crucial factor in the theory of common descent, since they provide the evidence of commonality. A theist might argue that his God provided all the patterns and preprogrammed or dabbled all the variations, or he might argue that his God provided organisms with the ability to invent and vary the patterns all by themselves. An atheist might argue that a limitless number of random combinations eventually resulted in one that led to life and the ability to invent and vary patterns. And an agnostic wrestles with the insoluble problem of origins, shakes his head, and admits to being clueless!
Comment: There are lots of clues; you just don't like them.
Evolution: convergence or divergence
by David Turell , Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 19:15 (1410 days ago) @ David Turell
The platypus is divergence:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/science/platypus-genome-echidna.html?utm_source=Natu...
"The platypus and four echidna species, all native to Australia, are the world’s only living monotremes — a group perhaps best known for their unique reproductive strategy, which involves laying eggs and then nursing their young once they’ve hatched.
***
"But because the monotremes diverged from other mammals so early — about 187 million years ago — they are also “very important for understanding mammalian evolution,” he said. Indeed, some monotreme traits that seem so strange to us may have actually been present in the ancestor we all share.
***
"Having such a comprehensive map enables comparisons among the genomes of different species, and helps fill gaps in the step-by-step story of how mammals appeared and then diverged. For instance, many birds and insects have multiple copies of a gene called vitellogenin, which is involved in the production of egg yolks.
"Most mammals don’t have the vitellogenin gene, said Dr. Zhang. But the new genomes reveal that platypuses and echidnas have one copy of it, helping to explain their anomalous egg-laying — and suggesting that this gene (and perhaps the reproductive strategy itself) may have been something the rest of us lost, rather than an innovation of the monotremes. Meanwhile, they also have milk-producing genes similar to ours and those of other mammals, allowing them to nourish their young.
"Other traits took other paths. The new genome reveals that monotremes, which are toothless, have lost multiple genes associated with dental development that are present in other mammals. Platypuses also have venom-producing genes that other mammals lack, but that are similar to those found in some reptiles, perhaps explaining their toxic foot spikes.
"Less visible, but equally perplexing, is the fact that while other mammals generally have one pair of sex chromosomes, monotremes have five pairs. The structure of the newly revealed genomes suggests that these sex chromosomes were once in a ring formation, and then broke into pieces — although more research is needed to figure out how that happened."
Comment: Looks like a Rube Goldberg machine with bits and pieces of several types of evolutionary stages. Their econiche is in steam in Australia, like the ones I have seen.
Evolution: plant blooms
by David Turell , Thursday, September 16, 2021, 19:52 (1163 days ago) @ David Turell
This issue bothered Darwin, but it is similar to the Cambrian explosion:
https://phys.org/news/2021-09-evolved-complexity-burstswith-million-year-hiatus.html
"A Stanford-led study reveals that rather than evolving gradually over hundreds of millions of years, land plants underwent major diversification in two dramatic bursts, 250 million years apart. The first occurred early in plant history, giving rise to the development of seeds, and the second took place during the diversification of flowering plants.
"... While scientists have long assumed that plants became more complex with the advent of seeds and flowers, the new findings, published Sept. 17 in Science, offer insight to the timing and magnitude of those changes.
"'The most surprising thing is this kind of stasis, this plateau in complexity after the initial evolution of seeds and then the total change that happened when flowering plants started diversifying," said lead study author Andrew Leslie, an assistant professor of geological sciences at Stanford's School of Earth, Energy & Environmental Sciences (Stanford Earth). "The reproductive structures look different in all these plants, but they all have about the same number of parts during that stasis."
"Flowers are more diverse than every other group of plants, producing colors, smells and shapes that nourish animals and delight the senses. They are also intricate: petals, anthers and pistils interweave in precise arrangements to lure pollinators and trick them into spreading pollen from one flower to another.
"This complexity makes it difficult for scientists to compare flowering plants to plants with simpler reproductivesystems, such as ferns or some conifers. As a result, botanists have long focused on characteristics within family groups and typically study evolution in non-flowering plants separately from their more intricate flowering relatives.
"Leslie and his co-authors overcame these differences by designing a system that classifies the number of different kinds of parts in reproductive structures based on observation alone. Each species was scored according to how many types of parts it has and the degree to which it exhibited clustering of those parts. They categorized about 1,300 land plant species from about 420 million years ago until the present."
Comment: Doesn't solve Darwin's problem, just defined it in time in a better way. But still another unexplained gap.
Evolution: plant blooms pushed further back
by David Turell , Monday, January 17, 2022, 15:12 (1040 days ago) @ David Turell
New discoveries in China:
https://www.sciencealert.com/researchers-have-found-the-oldest-flower-bud-fossil-yet?ut...
Scientists in China say they have found the oldest flower bud in the fossil record, finally aligning the fossil evidence with the genetic data suggesting flowering plants, or angiosperms, evolved tens of millions of years earlier than we initially thought. (my bold)
The team hopes their discovery will help "ease the pain" around a nagging, centuries-old mystery that Charles Darwin once called "abominable".
If the oldest unambiguous fossil flower is no older than 130 million years old, then how come angiosperms began to dominate ecosystems just 20 to 30 million years later? How had they evolved such great diversity that quickly?
It was a puzzle that had bothered Darwin greatly, but he never found the answers he wanted. In the past few years, however, some crucial pieces have fallen into place.
In 2016, scientists in China announced the discovery of a "perfect flower" dating back to the Jurassic, more than 145 million years ago.
The fossilized plant, called Euanthus, not only had petals, but it also had sepals (the leafy bit at the base of a bud), as well male and female reproductive parts, including an ovary similar to modern flowers.
In 2018, another fossilized flower was found in China, and this one, called Nanjinganthus, was about 174 million years old. Like a modern flowering plant, its seeds were completely enclosed in an ovary.
***
The new fossilized flower bud, found in China and dubbed Florigerminis jurassica, could be the transitional stage researchers have been looking for. It was found at a deposit dated more than 164 million years ago, and it's still in excellent condition.
***
Because flowers are such delicate structures, they are notoriously difficult to find in fossils preceding the Cretaceous. Previous attempts to uncover the origin of flowering plants have been described as an "unbroken record of failure". (my bold)
F. jurassica is a one-of-a-kind discovery. Not even Nanjinganthus has been found with an intact flower bud, just a flower.
The fruit on F. jurassica adds even more support to the idea that this is, in fact, an early angiosperm, and not a gymnosperm.
Comment: Darwin's mystery is not solved as this is a still a sudden sudden appearance but the article makes two important statements I've bolded. The first shows the maths predicting genetic age work. The second speaks to dhw's constant complaint that gaps are missing fossils. Delicate plant fossils are yielding to current searches in new levels of older age, explaining why those they have finally been found. In comparison, animal evolution with many more preserved fossils, easy to find, have established unchanging gaps. We still have fact there are huge gaps in evolution supporting the need to recognize a designer at work.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 08:39 (3493 days ago) @ David Turell
Please note: I am putting the exaptation arguments together on this thread, which seems more appropriate than "Evolution v Creationism".-dhw: ...exaptations would also be inventive adjustments to existing organs. DAVID: Exaptation's appear thousands to hundred of thousand years before any use is found for them. That is a key issue in the idea of pre-planning. And: You totally miss the point about exaptation's. They appear well before any use of them is found and they are not necessary at the time of appearance. That is the definition of them.-I can't find any definition that supports this view. On one website I found the following definitions: 1. a process in which a feature acquires a function that was not acquired through natural selection. 2. a feature having a function for which it was not originally adapted or selected. 3. a morphological or physiological feature that predisposes an organism to adapt to a different environment or lifestyle. 4. predisposition toward adaptation.-None of these definitions suggest features that have hung around for thousands of years doing nothing. If anything, they seem to suggest innovative use of existing features. Another site offers the following illuminating comment and example: "It is a relatively new term, proposed by Stephen Jay Gould and Elisabeth Vrba in 1982 to make the point that a trait's current use does not necessarily explain its historical origin. They proposed exaptation as a counterpart to the concept of adaptation. For example, the earliest feathers belonged to dinosaurs not capable of flight. So, they must have first evolved for something else. Researchers have speculated early feathers may have been used for attracting mates or keeping warm. But later on, feathers became essential for modern birds' flight." This seems to be a classic example. Feathers originally served a different purpose. They didn't magically appear and hang around for yonks doing nothing until some cleverclogs decided to use them in order to fly. Another website gives the example of fins becoming limbs - not a useless feature suddenly becoming useful, but an existing feature taking on a new function. You regard the lowering of the larynx as another, and refer to it as “the descent of the larynx, long before language”. And: “Lucy had no idea she could one day learn to speak.” How do you imagine these early hominids communicated? Do you not think they made sounds? And do you not think their lowered larynx would have helped them to make different sounds using their own particular “language”? Or do you mean Lucy had no idea she could one day learn to speak English?
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Saturday, May 02, 2015, 21:40 (3492 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: ...exaptations would also be inventive adjustments to existing organs.-> DAVID: Exaptation's appear thousands to hundred of thousand years before any use is found for them. That is a key issue in the idea of pre-planning. > And: You totally miss the point about exaptation's. They appear well before any use of them is found and they are not necessary at the time of appearance. That is the definition of them. > > dhw: I can't find any definition that supports this view. On one website I found the following definitions: > 1. a process in which a feature acquires a function that was not acquired through natural selection. > 2. a feature having a function for which it was not originally adapted or selected. -This point (1) fits my definition of appearing ahead of time for no good reason and not used at all. Please re-read in my book pages 130-131 for further discussion. The larynx and other changes are right on point.- > dhw: 3. a morphological or physiological feature that predisposes an organism to adapt to a different environment or lifestyle. > 4. predisposition toward adaptation.-These points are also part of a differing definition which has to do with adaptation of an existing part to new function, like the panda thumb. > > dhw: None of these definitions suggest features that have hung around for thousands of years doing nothing. If anything, they seem to suggest innovative use of existing features.-Wrong interpretation of the first type of definition:-"While an exaptation is co-opted from another or no apparent use, an adaptation is constructed by natural selection for its current use, Gould and Vrba wrote." Note the bold. It has both meanings, and there are many examples of both.-"Others, however, have found the concept of exaptation difficult to separate from adaptation. The philosopher Daniel Dennett writes in his book, "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" (Simon & Schuster, 1995): “If you go back far enough, you will find that every adaptation has developed from predecessor structures each of which had some other use or no use at all.'” (my bold)-"A recent study, published in Nature, used a computational method to examine the potential for exaptation within metabolisms. The researchers concluded that every adaptation, in this case the ability to live off glucose, was accompanied by multiple, potential exaptations, or the latent ability to use other fuels. This result implies that if an organism is put into an environment offering only a food it had never before encountered, that organism may be able to eat the foreign food just fine and so survive. This result indicates that many beneficial traits may have gotten started as exaptations, the researchers write." -{In other words, existing, but not used at all until a need arose.} ( my comment) -http://www.livescience.com/39688-exaptation.html -> dhw: How do you imagine these early hominids communicated? Do you not think they made sounds? And do you not think their lowered larynx would have helped them to make different sounds using their own particular “language”? Or do you mean Lucy had no idea she could one day learn to speak English?-She had no idea. Look at my book or read " The Ape That Spoke", by John McCrone, 1991. I have it well annotated. DHW, I feel you are in a funny mode, trying to teach me what I already know. Is this the way to defend agnosticism? There are two definitions and some confusion between adaptation and the two types of exaptation. I use the one you don't like because it implies pre-planning as you have noted.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Saturday, May 02, 2015, 21:50 (3492 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: ...exaptations would also be inventive adjustments to existing organs. > > > DAVID: Exaptation's appear thousands to hundred of thousand years before any use is found for them. That is a key issue in the idea of pre-planning. > > And: You totally miss the point about exaptation's. They appear well before any use of them is found and they are not necessary at the time of appearance. That is the definition of them. > > > > dhw: I can't find any definition that supports this view. On one website I found the following definitions: > > 1. a process in which a feature acquires a function that was not acquired through natural selection. > > 2. a feature having a function for which it was not originally adapted or selected. This point (1) fits my definition of appearing ahead of time for no good reason and not used at all. Please re-read in my book (S vs R) pages 130-131 for further discussion. The larynx and other changes are right on point. > > > > dhw: 3. a morphological or physiological feature that predisposes an organism to adapt to a different environment or lifestyle. > > 4. predisposition toward adaptation. These points are also part of a differing definition which has to do with adaptation of an existing part to new function, like the panda thumb. > > > > dhw: None of these definitions suggest features that have hung around for thousands of years doing nothing. If anything, they seem to suggest innovative use of existing features.- Wrong interpretation of the first type of definition: "While an exaptation is co-opted from another or no apparent use, an adaptation is constructed by natural selection for its current use, Gould and Vrba wrote." Note the bold. It has both meanings, and there are many examples of both. "Others, however, have found the concept of exaptation difficult to separate from adaptation. The philosopher Daniel Dennett writes in his book, "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" (Simon & Schuster, 1995): “If you go back far enough, you will find that every adaptation has developed from predecessor structures each of which had some other use or no use at all.'” (my bold) "A recent study, published in Nature, used a computational method to examine the potential for exaptation within metabolisms. The researchers concluded that every adaptation, in this case the ability to live off glucose, was accompanied by multiple, potential exaptations, or the latent ability to use other fuels. This result implies that if an organism is put into an environment offering only a food it had never before encountered, that organism may be able to eat the foreign food just fine and so survive. This result indicates that many beneficial traits may have gotten started as exaptations, the researchers write." {In other words, existing, but not used at all until a need arose.} ( my comment) http://www.livescience.com/39688-exaptation.html -"Thirty-one years ago, Gould and Vrba suggested that repetitive DNA sequences known as transposons, which originated from viruses, might serve no direct function at first, but may be used to great advantage later on. Since then, research has shown that transposons played an important role in the evolution of pregnancy. “They come from viruses, but they can be utilized for something they are not built for,” said Günter Wagner, an evolutionary biologist at Yale University and Andreas Wagner's former doctoral adviser. The two are not related." (my bold)-https://www.quantamagazine.org/20130904-evolution-as-opportunist/ > > > dhw: How do you imagine these early hominids communicated? Do you not think they made sounds? And do you not think their lowered larynx would have helped them to make different sounds using their own particular “language”? Or do you mean Lucy had no idea she could one day learn to speak English? She had no idea. Look at my book or read " The Ape That Spoke", by John McCrone, 1991. I have it well annotated. DHW, I feel you are in a funny mode, trying to teach me what I already know. Is this the way to defend agnosticism? There are two definitions and some confusion between adaptation and the two types of exaptation. I use the one you don't like because it implies pre-planning as you have noted.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Sunday, May 03, 2015, 00:53 (3492 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by David Turell, Sunday, May 03, 2015, 01:04
Another reference to exaptation by Tattersall which makes my point. On page 8 of the article:-"Whatever it may have been that ushered in the beginnings of symbolic thought in a species H. sapiens that, like all other organisms, had lived until that point in a concrete external world rather than in one constantly mentally remade, it is clear that symbolic thought itself cannot have been propelled into existence by natural selection. Indeed, natural selection is not a creative force; it can only exert itself on variations that come into existence spontaneously. In this sense, any useful novelty has to arise not as an adaptation but as an exaptation (Gould and Vrba, 1982 ): as a feature that is not acquired in the context of any function to which it might eventually be put. The vocal structures that make language possible are a prime example of this. - The bottom line here is that nothing arises for anything, and selection can only work with what is already there. Sometimes, novelties persist in populations for no better reason than that they do not get in the way. Looking at the matter from this perspective takes the origin of our vaunted human cognitive capacities out of the arena of gradual honing by natural selection, placing it instead in that of emergence (Tattersall, 2004, 2008 ). That is to say, an entirely new and unanticipated level of cognitive complexity was acquired as result of an entirely fortuitous coincidence of acquisitions. The whole, in other words, is greater than the sum of its parts." (Again, my bold)-http://www.imd.inder.cu/adjuntos/article/455/Human%20Brain%20Evolution.pdf#page=23-I've read many Tattersall articles, which influenced my approach to this concept of exaptations as being very important.-For further reading an article on the two types of exaptation, which again quotes Tattersall:-http://www.wcaanet.org/downloads/dejalu/may_2013/pievani.pdf -"Ian Tattersall used exaptation as a powerful explanatory hypothesis for a clearly defined subject, though crucial, such as the emergence of symbolic intelligence in Homo sapiens during the Palaeolithic Revolution. However, in the citation above he expressed a more radical perspective seeing exaptation (in prevalence type 2) as a general evolutionary pattern. It is noteworthy that Stephen J. Gould himself assumed a similar position at various points in his work. Interestingly, the statement below occurs in the very work where he examined most of the points we make here about the operationality of exaptation: “I cannot present a ‘review article' of empirical cases of exaptation, for the defining notion of quirky functional shift might almost be equated with evolutionary change itself, or at least with the broad and venerable subject of, in textbook parlance, ‘the origin of evolutionary novelties'” (Gould, 2002, p. 1234)."
Evolution: a different view; Ian Tattersall
by David Turell , Friday, June 19, 2015, 18:04 (3444 days ago) @ David Turell
Another review of his book, The Strange Case of the Rickety Cossack, discussing the bushiness of the path of human evolution, and how the paleontologists have been too limited in their thinking:-http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-bone-to-pick-1434667925-"One of paleoanthropology's problems, as Mr. Tattersall sees it, has been professional isolation from other sciences. From its beginnings in the 19th century, the subject was dominated by anatomists who paid minute attention to bone shapes and little to taxonomy or other relevant biological disciplines. These anatomists would make oracular pronouncements, which were basically intuitions beyond the reach of scientific analysis. One advised the young Mr. Tattersall that if he stared at the fossils for long enough, the bones would speak to him. "A further source of disorder has been that those lucky enough to find new skulls get to speak the loudest. The importance of acquiring human fossils makes paleoanthropology sound, in Mr. Tattersall's telling, more like a contact sport than a science. There are few good locales for human fossil hunting, and many of them are in Ethiopia. Denouncing your competitors to the Ethiopian government can be an expedient route to opening up claims and making big fossil finds. With a new skull in hand, you declare it to be a missing link that lies on the main branch of human evolution, while claiming those of your rivals belong to side branches. You then lock up your skull on the pretense that you need to study it further, while denying competitors the chance to challenge your assertions.-**** "Mr. Tattersall is unsparingly critical of the mental habits of his fellow paleoanthropologists. He describes the profession as one “whose practitioners are often slow to change their minds, even in the face of compelling evidence.” For years they resisted the assertions of molecular biologists that hominid fossils must be far younger than assumed. Until the arrival of cladistics, a more rigorous form of biological classification, debates among paleoanthropologists about how one hominid species was related to another were far from scientific, and “salesmanship was at a greater premium than rigorous reasoning was.” -"Bad scientific habits, Mr. Tattersall believes, have been so pervasive that to the present day they distort knowledge of the human past. “If the entire hominid fossil record were to be rediscovered tomorrow and analyzed by paleontologists with no horses already in the race, it is pretty certain that we would emerge with a picture of human evolution very different from the one we have inherited,” he writes. -"The author concedes that not all his colleagues will agree with everything he says. Still, he has presented a scalding indictment of a scholarly community and shown how easily nonscientific motives can influence supposedly scientific conclusions. Fraud in science is all too common, but failings in objectivity, especially when part of a community groupthink, are harder to detect and far more corrosive."
Evolution: a different view; Schwartz
by David Turell , Friday, August 28, 2015, 14:39 (3374 days ago) @ David Turell
Another view of human ancestors, thinking the classifications are sloppy:-http://phys.org/news/2015-08-genus-homo.html- "To ultimately understand what is Homo and what is not, Schwartz contends, anthropologists must approach their science in a more systematic fashion in order to truly understand the evolutionary past that led to the human of today.-"'If we want to be objective, we shall almost certainly have to scrap the iconic list of (genus and species) names in which hominid fossil specimens have historically been trapped and start from the beginning," he says."
Evolution: a different view; Schwartz
by dhw, Friday, August 28, 2015, 18:44 (3374 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Another view of human ancestors, thinking the classifications are sloppy: http://phys.org/news/2015-08-genus-homo.html QUOTE: "To ultimately understand what is Homo and what is not, Schwartz contends, anthropologists must approach their science in a more systematic fashion in order to truly understand the evolutionary past that led to the human of today. "'If we want to be objective, we shall almost certainly have to scrap the iconic list of (genus and species) names in which hominid fossil specimens have historically been trapped and start from the beginning," he says."-Sorry, but how can you start from the beginning when you don't know the beginning?
Evolution: a different view; Schwartz
by David Turell , Friday, August 28, 2015, 22:22 (3374 days ago) @ dhw
Schwsartz "'If we want to be objective, we shall almost certainly have to scrap the iconic list of (genus and species) names in which hominid fossil specimens have historically been trapped and start from the beginning," he says."[/i] > > dhw: Sorry, but how can you start from the beginning when you don't know the beginning?-Well, some ape-like animal started the human line. We seem to recognize those. He isn't referring to start of life.
Evolution: a different view; Schwartz
by dhw, Saturday, August 29, 2015, 08:14 (3374 days ago) @ David Turell
Schwartz "'If we want to be objective, we shall almost certainly have to scrap the iconic list of (genus and species) names in which hominid fossil specimens have historically been trapped and start from the beginning," he says." dhw: Sorry, but how can you start from the beginning when you don't know the beginning? -DAVID: Well, some ape-like animal started the human line. We seem to recognize those. He isn't referring to start of life.-Nor was I. Tony thinks humans were separately created, which is the only way you can talk of a beginning. In the context of evolution and the hominid fossils, you can't "start at the beginning" if you don't know what constitutes the borderline between ape and human! Nor can you start at the beginning unless you know there are no more fossils to be found.
Evolution: a different view; Schwartz
by David Turell , Saturday, August 29, 2015, 14:12 (3373 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: Nor was I. Tony thinks humans were separately created, which is the only way you can talk of a beginning. In the context of evolution and the hominid fossils, you can't "start at the beginning" if you don't know what constitutes the borderline between ape and human! Nor can you start at the beginning unless you know there are no more fossils to be found.-I agree with your points, but I think you are being too strict about the word 'beginning'. It also refers to the 'beginning of an analysis'. There is a hodgepodge of ancient fossils. When we note that humans today range from dwarfs to pituitary giants, future paleontologists, if they didn't read our history, would have a field day of classifications. All Schwartz is noting is that we may be missing simple variation and over-splitting groups.
Evolution: a different view; Schwartz
by dhw, Sunday, August 30, 2015, 21:21 (3372 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Tony thinks humans were separately created, which is the only way you can talk of a beginning. In the context of evolution and the hominid fossils, you can't "start at the beginning" if you don't know what constitutes the borderline between ape and human! Nor can you start at the beginning unless you know there are no more fossils to be found.-DAVID: I agree with your points, but I think you are being too strict about the word 'beginning'. It also refers to the 'beginning of an analysis'. There is a hodgepodge of ancient fossils. When we note that humans today range from dwarfs to pituitary giants, future paleontologists, if they didn't read our history, would have a field day of classifications. All Schwartz is noting is that we may be missing simple variation and over-splitting groups.-You agree with me, and I agree with you. This is a red-letter day!
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Thursday, April 21, 2016, 01:52 (3138 days ago) @ David Turell
This article takes from Andreas Wagner's work to show that evolution has amazing biochemical patterns to follow and this affects genes, and the search for new proteins in the landscape to fit new structures and functions, and it limits the number of functional RNA molecules to smaller number to be found in a search. It never wonders why this might be, and assumes it is all natural, while I see planning patterns to help evolution flow:-http://nautil.us/issue/20/creativity/the-strange-inevitability-of-evolution-"You don't have to be a benighted creationist, nor even a believer in divine providence, to argue that Darwin's astonishing theory doesn't fully explain why nature is so marvelously, endlessly inventive. “Darwin's theory surely is the most important intellectual achievement of his time, perhaps of all time,” says evolutionary biologist Andreas Wagner of the University of Zurich. “But the biggest mystery about evolution eluded his theory. And he couldn't even get close to solving it.”-"What Wagner is talking about is how evolution innovates: as he puts it, “how the living world creates.” Natural selection supplies an incredibly powerful way of pruning variation into effective solutions to the challenges of the environment. But it can't explain where all that variation came from. As the biologist Hugo de Vries wrote in 1905, “natural selection may explain the survival of the fittest, but it cannot explain the arrival of the fittest.” Over the past several years, Wagner and a handful of others have been starting to understand the origins of evolutionary innovation. Thanks to their findings so far, we can now see not only how Darwinian evolution works but why it works: what makes it possible.-***-"The trouble is that traits don't in general map so neatly onto genes: They arise from interactions between many genes that regulate one another's activity in complex networks, or “gene circuits.” No matter, you might think: Evolution has plenty of time, and it will find the “good” gene circuits eventually. But the math says otherwise.-"Take, for example, the discovery within the field of evolutionary developmental biology that the different body plans of many complex organisms, including us, arise not from different genes but from different networks of gene interaction and expression in the same basic circuit, called the Hox gene circuit. -***-"There are 20 different amino acids found in natural proteins, and for proteins just 100 amino acids long (which are small ones) the number of permutations is 10^130. Yet the 4 billion years of evolution so far have provided only enough time to create around 10^50 different proteins. So how on earth has it managed to find ones that work?-***-"And how does evolution find its way from an existing solution to a viable new one—how does it create? The answer is, at least in part, a simple one: It's easier than it looks. But only because the landscape that the evolutionary process explores has a remarkable structure, and one that neither Darwin nor his successors who merged Darwinism with genetics had anticipated.-***-"In the 1990s Schuster and his colleagues devised a computer program that could predict the simplest features of an RNA's shape (its secondary structure, which is how parts of the chain stick to other parts by pairing-up of bases) from its sequence. For an RNA of 100 bases, there are around 1023 possible shapes of this sort. But what was remarkable was the way these shapes and their sequences were related.-***-"E. coli consumes glucose and makes from it all 60 or so of the key molecular building blocks it needs to survive. But what if just one of those metabolic reactions was altered? Wagner and Rodrigues calculated and found that several hundred will also make do with glucose alone. In other words, E. coli's metabolic network is not finely tuned to run on glucose—lots of other variants will work too.-***-"These ideas suggest that evolvability and openness to innovation are features not just of life but of information itself....Manfred Eigen, who insists that Darwinian evolution is not merely the organizing principle of biology but a “law of physics,” an inevitable result of how information is organized in complex systems. And if that's right, it would seem that the appearance of life was not a fantastic fluke but almost a mathematical inevitability."-Comment: Huge essay. I covered only a little. Why inevitability?
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Thursday, April 21, 2016, 14:11 (3137 days ago) @ David Turell
http://nautil.us/issue/20/creativity/the-strange-inevitability-of-evolution - QUOTES: "You don't have to be a benighted creationist, nor even a believer in divine providence, to argue that Darwin's astonishing theory doesn't fully explain why nature is so marvelously, endlessly inventive. But the biggest mystery about evolution eluded his theory. And he couldn't even get close to solving it.” "What Wagner is talking about is how evolution innovates: as he puts it, “how the living world creates.” "These ideas suggest that evolvability and openness to innovation are features not just of life but of information itself....Manfred Eigen, who insists that Darwinian evolution is not merely the organizing principle of biology but a “law of physics,” an inevitable result of how information is organized in complex systems. And if that's right, it would seem that the appearance of life was not a fantastic fluke but almost a mathematical inevitability." - David's comment: Huge essay. I covered only a little. Why inevitability? - Thank you for giving us this taster. We have been arguing the toss over the problem of innovation for the last eight years! I just don't have time to read the whole essay now, so what I am about to say may be unfair, in which case I apologize in advance. Firstly, there are two mysteries here, and they seem to have been telescoped: innovation is one, and the appearance of life is another. I can think of no reason why life should not appear without evolving, as it apparently did for millions of years here on Earth. Evolution requires favourable, changing conditions and a mechanism that enables an inventive response to those conditions. Secondly, the suggestion that the mechanisms for life and evolution were the inevitable result of a “law of physics” seems to me to be a cop-out on a par with “God did it”. If Wagner can tell us exactly how life began, and exactly how a law of physics can “inevitably” transform comparatively primitive, single-celled organisms into dinosaurs, dogs, humming birds and humans, he might have a case. But I repeat my apologies, as these comments are only based on the quotes.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Friday, April 22, 2016, 05:21 (3137 days ago) @ dhw
. dhw:If Wagner can tell us exactly how life began, and exactly how a law of physics can “inevitably” transform comparatively primitive, single-celled organisms into dinosaurs, dogs, humming birds and humans, he might have a case.-No, he's not describing OOL, but how easily evolution might search for new molecules and gene networks-> dhw: But I repeat my apologies, as these comments are only based on the quotes.-Try to skim through it. It is an eye opener.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Friday, April 22, 2016, 15:22 (3136 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw:If Wagner can tell us exactly how life began, and exactly how a law of physics can “inevitably” transform comparatively primitive, single-celled organisms into dinosaurs, dogs, humming birds and humans, he might have a case. DAVID: No, he's not describing OOL, but how easily evolution might search for new molecules and gene networks.-Actually, there are several references to OOL, but they are not Wagner's. You yourself quoted the conclusion of the article: "These ideas suggest that evolvability and openness to innovation are features not just of life but of information itself....Manfred Eigen, who insists that Darwinian evolution is not merely the organizing principle of biology but a “law of physics,” an inevitable result of how information is organized in complex systems. And if that's right, it would seem that the appearance of life was not a fantastic fluke but almost a mathematical inevitability." (My bold)-As regards the problem of innovation, I think the following passages are also revealing: “Take, for example, the discovery within the field of evolutionary developmental biology that the different body plans of many complex organisms, including us, arise not from different genes but from different networks of gene interaction and expression in the same basic circuit, called the Hox gene circuit.”-If gene interaction and expression are key factors in evolutionary development, and if we accept that all innovations have to entail cooperation between cell communities within existing organisms (common descent, as opposed to separate creation), it seems to me increasingly difficult to ignore the possibility that these communities work out their own form of development, bearing in mind the following: “The structure of these combinatorial landscapes of biomolecules then enables nature to make bold and creative innovations rather than being forever consigned to making incremental variations on what already exists...” Nature is not an external engineer that “makes” innovations. Innovation is the result of interaction between individual organisms and environmental conditions, and it requires the organisms to be aware of conditions and to have an internal mechanism that will utilize them. “...Evolution need only take a random walk along a web of neutral (or at least almost neutral) mutations, that, without impairing the fitness of an organism, surrounds it with very different neighbors: innovative solutions to selective pressures that are there for the taking when the circumstances compel it. Through this neutral drift, organisms can reach locations in phase space which would not have been accessible by strictly adaptive mutation from their original starting position.”-I do not see evolution as solely the result of compulsion. As we have said, there was then no need for any advance beyond bacteria, and all that was required was adaptation. Nor do I see why the walk has to be random, and I find the whole “walk” image unconvincing, as I do the “landscape” image. If common descent is true (and I believe it is), then all innovations must take place WITHIN existing organisms, and that means cells must organize their own mutations (in the sense of innovative changes). Your theory, David, has always been that cells do this according to divine preprogramming or divine interference. My alternative is that they do it because they have their own inventive intelligence (perhaps designed by your God). Neither of us accepts randomness or the restriction to circumstances of compulsion (which only demand adaptation). It seems to me that the essay provides no answer to the mysteries of how life and the mechanisms for evolution came into being, or how innovation actually takes place. We know that all the component parts are there, and it is interesting to hear that there are many different ways of reaching the same solution, but that is a far cry from proving that life and evolution were “almost a mathematical inevitability”(though one should note the word “almost”).
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Friday, April 22, 2016, 15:47 (3136 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: I do not see evolution as solely the result of compulsion. As we have said, there was then no need for any advance beyond bacteria, and all that was required was adaptation. Nor do I see why the walk has to be random, and I find the whole “walk” image unconvincing, as I do the “landscape” image. If common descent is true (and I believe it is), then all innovations must take place WITHIN existing organisms, and that means cells must organize their own mutations (in the sense of innovative changes). ....It seems to me that the essay provides no answer to the mysteries of how life and the mechanisms for evolution came into being, or how innovation actually takes place. We know that all the component parts are there, and it is interesting to hear that there are many different ways of reaching the same solution, but that is a far cry from proving that life and evolution were “almost a mathematical inevitability”(though one should note the word “almost”).-I appreciate your taking time to review this article. Here is another assumption of 'ease' or 'facilitation' from giant numbers present in the article:-"Proteins have this property too. Different organisms often possess proteins with the same shape and enzymatic function (phenotype), yet typically these will share no more than 20 percent of their amino acids in common. Using a simple model of protein structures, David Lipman and W. John Wilbur of the National Institutes of Health in Maryland showed in 1991 why this should be so: Their simplified model proteins were linked into extended networks in sequence space that can be traversed by neutral mutations one step at a time. In 2001 this apparent redundancy between protein sequence and phenotype was demonstrated experimentally by Anthony Keefe and Jack Szostak at Harvard University. They set out to look for proteins made from randomly assembled amino acids that could bind to the small molecule called ATP, which is the key energy-storage molecule of living cells. Just about any protein that does useful work, such as transporting other molecules or catalyzing their transformation into new forms, uses ATP as the energy source. ATP-binders are therefore vital components of cells. Szostak and Keefe used a chemical method to assemble 80-amino-acid proteins at random from their component parts, and were able to sift through all the variants that they made to find ones that happened to be aptly shaped to bind ATP.2 They couldn't make anything like the total number of possible permutations of this number of amino acids. But among the tiny fraction (6 trillion) that they did produce, they found four ATP binders. That doesn't sound like a lot, but if there are already four solutions in this incredibly small sampling of the sequence space, there must be an immense number in the rest of the space—about 10^93 of them, the researchers estimated."-I simply think God made His job easier by setting up these patterns. The author thinks 4 out of 6 trillion is an easy find. I don't.
Evolution: a different view: correction
by David Turell , Friday, April 22, 2016, 15:19 (3136 days ago) @ David Turell
One paragraph of what has been presented needed a correction: - "In the 1990s Schuster and his colleagues devised a computer program that could predict the simplest features of an RNA's shape (its secondary structure, which is how parts of the chain stick to other parts by pairing-up of bases) from its sequence. For an RNA of 100 bases, there are around 10^23 possible shapes of this sort. But what was remarkable was the way these shapes and their sequences were related. - Note the change in the number from 1023 to exponential 10^23. It becomes an enormous number and yet the author thinks that gives the evolutionary search for useful molecules an easier path! Coordinated patterns do simply, but the numbers are still huge.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Saturday, September 24, 2016, 19:19 (2981 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by David Turell, Saturday, September 24, 2016, 19:26
Another essay from Andreas Wagner which explains the enormous protein landscape and how evolution seems to navigate it through large relationship networks. One should read the whole essay, as it is very informative and very large, and I can present only a small portion: - https://aeon.co/essays/without-a-library-of-platonic-forms-evolution-couldn-t-work?utm_... - "The glass lizard itself comprises billions of cells. Each cell contains thousands of different kinds of proteins - long string-like molecules made of 20 different kinds of amino acid. And each of these proteins has a unique ability. It might catalyse a chemical reaction, or prevent a cell from collapsing, or sense nutrients, or receive signals from other cells, and so on. Each of these abilities was an innovation - a qualitatively new and useful feature that can make the difference between life and death - when it first arose, millions of years ago. - "How do random DNA changes lead to innovation? Darwin's concept of natural selection, although crucial to understand evolution, doesn't help much. The thing is, selection can only spread innovations that already exist. The botanist Hugo de Vries said it best in 1905: ‘Natural selection can explain the survival of the fittest, but it cannot explain the arrival of the fittest.' (Half a century earlier, Darwin had already admitted that calling variations random is just another way of admitting that we don't know their origins.) - *** - "A protein is a volume in a library just like this, written in a 20-letter alphabet of amino acids. And while protein texts might not be as long as Tolstoy's War and Peace, their total number is still astonishing. For example, a library of every possible amino acid string that is 500 letters long would contain more than 10600 texts - a one with 600 trailing zeros. That vastly outnumbers the atoms in the visible universe. - *** - "..evolution can't simply look up the chemicals it needs in a giant catalogue. No, it has to inch its way painstakingly along the stacks. Imagine a crowd of browsers - each one representing an entire familial line - who must blindly explore the library, step by random step. This sounds like a party game, but there's a grisly twist. A mutation that compromises an essential protein such as haemoglobin is punishable by death. On that ill-fated volume, the bloodline ends. - *** - "And imagine that you could start this journey in not just one but 100 different ways, each one tracing one of a myriad alternative paths through the library, each encoding only synonymous texts that differ in most letters. Nature's libraries are just like that, permeated with sprawling networks of synonymous texts - I call them genotype networks - each encoding a molecule and its biochemical function. - *** - "But when you cannot make a beeline, because each step takes you in a random direction prescribed by a DNA mutation, it turns out that sprawling genotype networks are just what you need to survive. - "Random DNA changes in some members of a population could disable an essential protein such as haemoglobin and lead to death, but because genotype networks exist, other mutations can create a synonymous text that preserves the protein's function and saves the organism. This cycle of mutation and natural selection repeats in the survivors' descendants. Some of them die, but others live and get to take one step further. Step by step, the population of survivors spreads out through the library in a process that unfolds over many generations. - "Relatives of the lizard's oxygen transport protein illustrate how far this exploration can go. They are all descendants of a single long-forgotten ancestral protein that existed more than a billion years ago. By now, they occur not only all over the animal kingdom but even in plants. They have travelled far and wide throughout the library. And still they express the same chemical function. They all bind oxygen. - "Their amino acid text, however, has diverged beyond recognition. Today's haemoglobin proteins share as little as four per cent of the letters among their roughly 100 amino acids. - *** - "The remarkable thing is, having so many different ways to say the same thing means that there are many more possible slips of the tongue. And with each slip of the tongue comes the possibility of saying something different. Just as the word GOLD emerges from a single letter change in MOLD, some neighbours of a text express new meanings. And as the browsers work their way through each synonym for some original text, different innovations become accessible. By creating safe paths through the library, genotype networks create the very possibility of innovation. - *** - "So nature's libraries and their sprawling networks go a long way towards explaining life's capacity to evolve.....They exist in a world of concepts, the kind of abstract concepts that mathematicians explore." - Comment: He is suggesting chance mutation drives evolution because slightly changed molecules have similar function. He is ignoring the necessity of planning the coordinating of the millions of molecules that make up a single cell. He is also ignoring the highly complex world of giant enzymes in using, as an example, hemoglobin with only 100 amino acids.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Monday, May 04, 2015, 18:40 (3490 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: ...exaptations would also be inventive adjustments to existing organs. DAVID: Exaptation's appear thousands to hundred of thousand years before any use is found for them. That is a key issue in the idea of pre-planning. dhw: I can't find any definition that supports this view. On one website I found the following definitions: 1. a process in which a feature acquires a function that was not acquired through natural selection. 2. a feature having a function for which it was not originally adapted or selected. -DAVID: This point (1) fits my definition of appearing ahead of time for no good reason and not used at all. -Where do you see (hundreds of) thousands of years before the feature had any use? The existing feature acquires a new function, that's all. dhw: 3. a morphological or physiological feature that predisposes an organism to adapt to a different environment or lifestyle. 4. predisposition toward adaptation.-DAVID: These points are also part of a differing definition which has to do with adaptation of an existing part to new function, like the panda thumb.-The first two definitions entail innovation, whereby existing features acquire new functions (no mention of the feature being useless for thousands of years), the last two definitions entail the ability to adapt as opposed to innovating. You go on to quote various examples of writers referring to alternatives (features which “had some other use or no use at all”) - which I'll come back to - and an experiment proving that organisms might be able to eat foods never before encountered - an ability which you say is “existing, but not used at all until a need arose”. In this case, the organism's existing digestive mechanism could clearly adapt, so are you saying it never used its digestive system before?-I have a problem with your concept of uselessness. Even now there is a huge kerfuffle over “junk” DNA, which suddenly scientists are finding serves a useful purpose. How does anyone know that the features which changed their function were useless before? The examples mentioned - feathers, fins and limbs, the lowered uvula, digestion - do not relate to anything originally useless. However, I am not trying to teach you something you already know. When you confront me with your “proofs”, I try to test them. You wrote: “There are two definitions and some confusion between adaptation and the two types of exaptation. I use the one you don't like because it implies pre-planning as you have noted.” It seems to me that there is enormous confusion, your two types involve innovation and adaptation, and both fit in just as well with an autonomous inventive mechanism as they do with pre-planning. Perhaps if you can explain to me how you know Lucy did not use her lowered uvula to make sounds intelligible to her peers, and how you know that whatever examples you can think of were useless (hundreds of) thousands of years before they became useful, it would help.-xxxxxxx-I'll have to deal with the Tattersall quote (also used in your first book) and the Gould quote another time.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Tuesday, May 05, 2015, 00:15 (3490 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: and an experiment proving that organisms might be able to eat foods never before encountered - an ability which you say is “existing, but not used at all until a need arose”. In this case, the organism's existing digestive mechanism could clearly adapt, so are you saying it never used its digestive system before?-Of course it had a digestive system, just using different enzymes in a different way than it now needed and adapted. than it now > > dhw: I have a problem with your concept of uselessness. Even now there is a huge kerfuffle over “junk” DNA, which suddenly scientists are finding serves a useful purpose. How does anyone know that the features which changed their function were useless before? The examples mentioned - feathers, fins and limbs, the lowered uvula, digestion - do not relate to anything originally useless.-Not uvula, but larynx. The larynx descended the uvula ascended, all many thousands of years before any use was found for them. Tattersall makes this point strongly as does McCrone. And why create the choking problem which can kill? > > dhw: It seems to me that there is enormous confusion, your two types involve innovation and adaptation, and both fit in just as well with an autonomous inventive mechanism as they do with pre-planning. -You are right about confusion. There are articles which are currently trying to explain the differences in types of exaptation. Some of them afraid of the pre-planning aspect.-> dhw: Perhaps if you can explain to me how you know Lucy did not use her lowered uvula to make sounds intelligible to her peers, and how you know that whatever examples you can think of were useless (hundreds of) thousands of years before they became useful, it would help. -There is no logical reason for the change in larynx, palate and uvula requiring an epiglottis to protect from aspiration. A lot of mechanical change but no intelligible speech it is thought until the last 100,000 years. Lucy at 2.3 million years ago didn't have these changes. They all happened well before speech.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Wednesday, May 06, 2015, 21:23 (3488 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: ...and an experiment proving that organisms might be able to eat foods never before encountered - an ability which you say is “existing, but not used at all until a need arose”. In this case, the organism's existing digestive mechanism could clearly adapt, so are you saying it never used its digestive system before?-DAVID: Of course it had a digestive system, just using different enzymes in a different way than it now needed and adapted. -And this is the point I am trying to make. All the examples you have mentioned are of features which were already in use but changed their function, in contrast to your claim that they hung around for (hundreds of) thousands of years doing nothing.-dhw: It seems to me that there is enormous confusion, your two types involve innovation and adaptation, and both fit in just as well with an autonomous inventive mechanism as they do with pre-planning. DAVID: You are right about confusion. There are articles which are currently trying to explain the differences in types of exaptation. Some of them afraid of the pre-planning aspect.-Can you please point me to just one writer who interprets exaptations in terms of God's pre-planning? DAVID: There is no logical reason for the change in larynx, palate and uvula requiring an epiglottis to protect from aspiration. A lot of mechanical change but no intelligible speech it is thought until the last 100,000 years. Lucy at 2.3 million years ago didn't have these changes. They all happened well before speech. -What is “intelligible speech”? Intelligible to whom? If you define language in terms of English, French and German, with complex syntax and a vast variety of structures, then of course it's a modern phenomenon. But if you define language as signs, sounds, movements etc. used as means of communication, your whole theory becomes highly problematical. All living creatures have language, right down to bacteria, and you have no idea what sort of sounds were used for communication when the changes took place in the larynx, palate and uvula. But I'll bet you the organisms that experienced those changes continued to communicate, using new sounds, and didn't go dumb for (hundreds of) thousands of years.-In your first book, you wrote: “The human larynx is lower than the Neanderthals' was, allowing humans a much better articulation of speech.....language is not thought to have appeared based on “the behavioural record” until one of our most recent ancestors arrived on the scene.” Since you wrote that book, you have alerted us to many recent discoveries of evidence that Neanderthals used relatively sophisticated tools, buried their dead, built dwellings and boats, cooked their food, hunted, and may well have had their own form of speech. You are, of course, covered by “much better articulation”, but "is not thought to have appeared" raises plenty of questions. My point here is that whenever the changes took place, we simply have no idea whether they were or were not used to create more complex sounds to allow greater breadth of communication. Once again, I don't see how you can asssume they hung around doing nothing for (hundreds of) thousands of years.-You have quoted Gould, who sums up the problem: “I cannot present a ‘review article' of empirical cases of exaptation, for the defining notion of quirky functional shift might almost be equated with evolutionary change itself, or at least with the broad and venerable subject of, in textbook parlance, ‘the origin of evolutionary novelties'” (Gould, 2002, p. 1234).-Just where do you draw the line between adaptation, exaptation, and innovation? In fact, is there a line? Once again, I would suggest that they all come under the umbrella of an autonomous inventive mechanism, which enables organisms to adjust themselves in order to cope with new conditions (adaptation), to use existing organisms for new functions (exaptation), and to create new organs in order to exploit new opportunities offered by new conditions (innovation). The borderlines between these three categories must inevitably remain blurred.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Wednesday, May 06, 2015, 22:18 (3488 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw; Can you please point me to just one writer who interprets exaptations in terms of God's pre-planning?-Tattersall discusses it in suggestive terms, not as forcefully as I do. > > > Dhw: if you define language as signs, sounds, movements etc. used as means of communication, your whole theory becomes highly problematical. All living creatures have language, right down to bacteria, and you have no idea what sort of sounds were used for communication when the changes took place in the larynx, palate and uvula.-Not problematical. If you read McCrone's book, you would understand the logic of my statements. The anatomic adaptations for modern speech came long before language of any simple kind involving words, not grunts, evolved.-> > My point here is that whenever the changes took place, we simply have no idea whether they were or were not used to create more complex sounds to allow greater breadth of communication. Once again, I don't see how you can asssume they hung around doing nothing for (hundreds of) thousands of years.-I am depending upon the book by McCrone and the fact that Tattersall points this out as exaptation. I'm quoting experts, not me. -> dhw:Just where do you draw the line between adaptation, exaptation, and innovation? In fact, is there a line? ...The borderlines between these three categories must inevitably remain blurred.-I have written there is confusion in the literature about this concept and these terms, but several authors state that exaptation are both used and unused new parts of organisms.-A long and complex article discussing the confusion, Gould's and Tattersall's approaches, with two types of exaptation:-http://www.wcaanet.org/downloads/dejalu/may_2013/pievani.pdf
Evolution: a different view
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Thursday, May 07, 2015, 09:12 (3488 days ago) @ David Turell
Dhw: if you define language as signs, sounds, movements etc. used as means of communication, your whole theory becomes highly problematical. All living creatures have language, right down to bacteria, and you have no idea what sort of sounds were used for communication when the changes took place in the larynx, palate and uvula. > > Not problematical. If you read McCrone's book, you would understand the logic of my statements. The anatomic adaptations for modern speech came long before language of any simple kind involving words, not grunts, evolved. > > > > > My point here is that whenever the changes took place, we simply have no idea whether they were or were not used to create more complex sounds to allow greater breadth of communication. Once again, I don't see how you can asssume they hung around doing nothing for (hundreds of) thousands of years. > > I am depending upon the book by McCrone and the fact that Tattersall points this out as exaptation. I'm quoting experts, not me. - So, what evidence is there that these anatomic adaptations for modern speech came long before language of any simple kind? Have we found a human with and one without vocal chords? Do we have some kind of historical record of WHEN language developed?
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Thursday, May 07, 2015, 15:13 (3487 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
> > Tony: So, what evidence is there that these anatomic adaptations for modern speech came long before language of any simple kind? Have we found a human with and one without vocal chords? Do we have some kind of historical record of WHEN language developed?-McCrone's book describes the major anatomical changes over the millions of years of human evolution. Modern language ability is thought to be about 50,000 years old. But McC describes how H. erectus might have spoken, based on the fossil record. A key point is the drop in the larynx to its much lower position requiring a trap door (epiglottis) to prevent fatal choking. Our view of evolution is that it looks for simple safe solutions. This one created a great danger, and then solved the created problem. As a result we can have very precise complex speech.
Evolution: a different view
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Thursday, May 07, 2015, 15:50 (3487 days ago) @ David Turell
> > > > Tony: So, what evidence is there that these anatomic adaptations for modern speech came long before language of any simple kind? Have we found a human with and one without vocal chords? Do we have some kind of historical record of WHEN language developed? > > McCrone's book describes the major anatomical changes over the millions of years of human evolution. Modern language ability is thought to be about 50,000 years old. But McC describes how H. erectus might have spoken, based on the fossil record. A key point is the drop in the larynx to its much lower position requiring a trap door (epiglottis) to prevent fatal choking. Our view of evolution is that it looks for simple safe solutions. This one created a great danger, and then solved the created problem. As a result we can have very precise complex speech.-Yes, but we have no EVIDENCE that the larynx dropped. Only speculation, a story based on the assumption that we were originally chimpanzees, whose larynx sits marginally higher than ours. That is my point. It is a story, a story with no evidence. The larynx bones of infants sit much higher than that of adults. So we KNOW that the bone migrates during development.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Friday, May 08, 2015, 01:31 (3487 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
> Tony: Yes, but we have no EVIDENCE that the larynx dropped. Only speculation, a story based on the assumption that we were originally chimpanzees, whose larynx sits marginally higher than ours. That is my point. It is a story, a story with no evidence. The larynx bones of infants sit much higher than that of adults. So we KNOW that the bone migrates during development.-The evidence is indirect. In this website you can see how much higher our tongue and lips are from the larynx as compared to the ape. I realize you don't think we are directly related to apes in evolution, but I accept some sort of evolutionary process happened and the larynx dropped.-http://crankylinguist.blogspot.com/2010/10/chimp-vs-human-vocal-tracts.html-And this comment just for dhw:-"One last thought as I mount an old hobby horse of mine. This transition from chimpanzee vocal tract to human tract did not require just a generation or two. If you want to agree with the generativists and the archaeologists who argue that speech is at most only a hundred thousand years old, you must account for the fact that we had already gotten rid of our chimpanzee vocal tract. Perhaps it was a pre-adaption but please, tell us what led to its formation." (my bold)-http://www.babelsdawn.com/babels_dawn/2010/10/the-evolution-of-the-vocal-tract.html
Evolution: a different view
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Saturday, May 09, 2015, 12:04 (3486 days ago) @ David Turell
> > Tony: Yes, but we have no EVIDENCE that the larynx dropped. Only speculation, a story based on the assumption that we were originally chimpanzees, whose larynx sits marginally higher than ours. That is my point. It is a story, a story with no evidence. The larynx bones of infants sit much higher than that of adults. So we KNOW that the bone migrates during development. > > David:The evidence is indirect. In this website you can see how much higher our tongue and lips are from the larynx as compared to the ape. I realize you don't think we are directly related to apes in evolution, but I accept some sort of evolutionary process happened and the larynx dropped. > > http://crankylinguist.blogspot.com/2010/10/chimp-vs-human-vocal-tracts.html &am... http://www.babelsdawn.com/babels_dawn/2010/10/the-evolution-of-the-vocal-tract.html-Did you read these articles thoroughly?-from http://www.babelsdawn.com/babels_dawn/2010/10/the-evolution-of-the-vocal-tract.html :-"This suggests that there was no pre-adaption of the vocal tract necessary to start the lineage speaking. For example, it is not necessary for the larynx to descend before speech sounds become possible...De Boer concludes, "Evidence of absence of a lowered larynx is therefore no evidence for the absence of speech in an ancestral hominin." So if we found a Homo erectus fossil in superb enough shape to determine the position of its larynx we could not use an undescended larynx to argue that erectus did not speak.-What strikes me is this bit: "if we found a Homo erectus fossil in superb enough shape to determine the position of its larynx" which means that they have not found one. -So:-A) The lowering of the larynx was not necessary for basic speach, and is thus decoupled from the development of rudimentary language. B) We have no evidence that the human larynx was every higher than it is now, and an absence of evidence is not proof of this claim. C) This claim ONLY works if we assume that we are descended from chimps despite the gross number of morphological differences, even in the relatively simple aparatus that comprises our vocal tract. -Sorry, this is a story told to justify another story, all without evidence. Great for science fiction, crap for science.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Saturday, May 09, 2015, 21:29 (3485 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
Tony: What strikes me is this bit: "if we found a Homo erectus fossil in superb enough shape to determine the position of its larynx" which means that they have not found one. > > So: > > A) The lowering of the larynx was not necessary for basic speach, and is thus decoupled from the development of rudimentary language. > B) We have no evidence that the human larynx was every higher than it is now, and an absence of evidence is not proof of this claim. > C) This claim ONLY works if we assume that we are descended from chimps despite the gross number of morphological differences, even in the relatively simple aparatus that comprises our vocal tract. > > Sorry, this is a story told to justify another story, all without evidence. Great for science fiction, crap for science.-As you understand I agree with you about A and B, but not C, and I would comment that all the anatomic changes between us and apes is not simple: a more arched palate, different tongue muscles, a different uvula, a different epiglottis in position and shape, different vocal cords and a speech area in the brain to handle the development of our complex language, with then differing areas for reading/writing and also speech. -In my McCrone book reference he discusses how H. habilis and H. erectus probably had a rudimentary form of speech. That is an obvious point to be covered, but the type of clipped bursts of air required for our style of speech arrived with H. sapiens under current theory. With the lack of fossil larynxes it is not known how well Neanderthals spoke but undoubtedly closer to our ability.
Evolution: a different view
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Sunday, May 10, 2015, 09:45 (3485 days ago) @ David Turell
Tony: > > C) This claim ONLY works if we assume that we are descended from chimps despite the gross number of morphological differences, even in the relatively simple aparatus that comprises our vocal tract. > > > > Sorry, this is a story told to justify another story, all without evidence. Great for science fiction, crap for science. > > As you understand I agree with you about A and B, but not C, and I would comment that all the anatomic changes between us and apes is not simple: a more arched palate, different tongue muscles, a different uvula, a different epiglottis in position and shape, different vocal cords and a speech area in the brain to handle the development of our complex language, with then differing areas for reading/writing and also speech. > > In my McCrone book reference he discusses how H. habilis and H. erectus probably had a rudimentary form of speech. That is an obvious point to be covered, but the type of clipped bursts of air required for our style of speech arrived with H. sapiens under current theory. With the lack of fossil larynxes it is not known how well Neanderthals spoke but undoubtedly closer to our ability.-I am assuming here (correct me if I am wrong) that you disagree with the phrase "relatively simple aparatus that comprises our vocal tract". If so, the key word here is "relatively". Compared to the many other morphological differences between us and Chimps, the vocal tract IS simple. For example, the larger human brain or the larger human head (overall, not just the cranium) requires many more changes, and changes of greater complexity, than the vocal tract. And the head region is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. I am not claiming that the changes to the vocal tract are simple or trivial. Far from it! The thrust of the claim was the first part of the statement: "This claim ONLY works if we assume that we are descended from chimps"-http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Sunday, May 10, 2015, 15:26 (3484 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
Tony:I am not claiming that the changes to the vocal tract are simple or trivial. Far from it! The thrust of the claim was the first part of the statement: "This claim ONLY works if we assume that we are descended from chimps" > > http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full-I have a book, "Not a Chimp", by Jeremy Taylor, Oxford Press, 2009, which describes the DNA of humans and chimps at about 79% (from memory) the same.
Evolution: a different view
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Sunday, May 10, 2015, 17:55 (3484 days ago) @ David Turell
Tony:I am not claiming that the changes to the vocal tract are simple or trivial. Far from it! The thrust of the claim was the first part of the statement: "This claim ONLY works if we assume that we are descended from chimps" > > > > http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full > >David: I have a book, "Not a Chimp", by Jeremy Taylor, Oxford Press, 2009, which describes the DNA of humans and chimps at about 79% (from memory) the same.-Was that counting or discounting the "junk" DNA?
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Sunday, May 10, 2015, 18:51 (3484 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
> >David: I have a book, "Not a Chimp", by Jeremy Taylor, Oxford Press, 2009, which describes the DNA of humans and chimps at about 79% (from memory) the same. > > Tony: Was that counting or discounting the "junk" DNA?-Not mentioned. He admits the base pairs are 98% the same in total, but the gene expression in the brain and elsewhere is that much different. Quickly in the book I found one comment about 86.3% in the brain.
Evolution: a different view
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Sunday, May 10, 2015, 19:29 (3484 days ago) @ David Turell
> > >David: I have a book, "Not a Chimp", by Jeremy Taylor, Oxford Press, 2009, which describes the DNA of humans and chimps at about 79% (from memory) the same. > > > > Tony: Was that counting or discounting the "junk" DNA? > >David: Not mentioned. He admits the base pairs are 98% the same in total, but the gene expression in the brain and elsewhere is that much different. Quickly in the book I found one comment about 86.3% in the brain.-Well, so just slightly closer to us than a banana.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: a different view: ape speech
by David Turell , Sunday, August 16, 2015, 04:11 (3387 days ago) @ David Turell
this is the most ridiculously reported article about ape speech ability I've ever seen:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150813171210.htm-So Koko can grunt and cough and control her breathing a bit:-"However, in a study published online in July in the journal Animal Cognition, Perlman and collaborator Nathaniel Clark of the University of California, Santa Cruz, sifted 71 hours of video of Koko interacting with Patterson and Cohn and others, and found repeated examples of Koko performing nine different, voluntary behaviors that required control over her vocalization and breathing. These were learned behaviors, not part of the typical gorilla repertoire.-"Among other things, Perlman and Clark watched Koko blow a raspberry (or blow into her hand) when she wanted a treat, blow her nose into a tissue, play wind instruments, huff moisture onto a pair of glasses before wiping them with a cloth and mimic phone conversations by chattering wordlessly into a telephone cradled between her ear and the crook of an elbow.-"'She doesn't produce a pretty, periodic sound when she performs these behaviors, like we do when we speak," Perlman says. "But she can control her larynx enough to produce a controlled grunting sound."-"Koko can also cough on command -- not particularly groundbreaking human behavior, but impressive for a gorilla because it requires her to close off her larynx."-And she has lived with humans since five months old. This proves nothing except we are very different.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Thursday, May 07, 2015, 21:55 (3487 days ago) @ David Turell
Dhw: Can you please point me to just one writer who interprets exaptations in terms of God's pre-planning? DAVID: Tattersall discusses it in suggestive terms, not as forcefully as I do.-Does ANYONE discuss it as forcefully as you do?-Dhw: ...if you define language as signs, sounds, movements etc. used as means of communication, your whole theory becomes highly problematical. All living creatures have language, right down to bacteria, and you have no idea what sort of sounds were used for communication when the changes took place in the larynx, palate and uvula. DAVID: Not problematical. If you read McCrone's book, you would understand the logic of my statements. The anatomic adaptations for modern speech came long before language of any simple kind involving words, not grunts, evolved.-How do you know? How can McCrone prove that the anatomic adaptations were not used? Was he around (hundreds of) thousands of years ago with a tape recorder? -dhw: My point here is that whenever the changes took place, we simply have no idea whether they were or were not used to create more complex sounds to allow greater breadth of communication. Once again, I don't see how you can assume they hung around doing nothing for (hundreds of) thousands of years. DAVID: I am depending upon the book by McCrone and the fact that Tattersall points this out as exaptation. I'm quoting experts, not me.-I also quote experts on the subject of bacterial intelligence, but that doesn't suit your beliefs. Those experts can at least observe their subjects. If McCrone has convinced you that these changes hung around for (hundreds of) thousands of years doing nothing, surely you can summarize his evidence. dhw:Just where do you draw the line between adaptation, exaptation, and innovation? In fact, is there a line? ...The borderlines between these three categories must inevitably remain blurred. DAVID: I have written there is confusion in the literature about this concept and these terms, but several authors state that exaptation are both used and unused new parts of organisms.-Please give us proven examples of the unused parts.-DAVID: A long and complex article discussing the confusion, Gould's and Tattersall's approaches, with two types of exaptation: http://www.wcaanet.org/downloads/dejalu/may_2013/pievani.pdf-My apologies, but I am currently under huge time pressure. and am having difficulty keeping up with these exchanges. I will try to read the article soon, but in the meantime, a brief explanation of the evidence for non-use would be much appreciated.-xxxxxxxxxxx-Tony: So, what evidence is there that these anatomic adaptations for modern speech came long before language of any simple kind? Have we found a human with and one without vocal chords? Do we have some kind of historical record of WHEN language developed?-DAVID: McCrone's book describes the major anatomical changes over the millions of years of human evolution. Modern language ability is thought to be about 50,000 years old. But McC describes how H. erectus might have spoken, based on the fossil record. -I'll leave Tony to argue his own case, which is different from mine. What is all this “thought to be about 50,000 years ago” and “how H. Erectus might have spoken”? Pure speculation. Try this for a theory: half a million years ago (or whatever), changes took place in the larynx, uvula etc. Since these changes are essential to human speech as we know it today, there is every possibility that human speech began half a million years ago. But some folk reckon the tools for speech were left unused for 450,000 years, and the poor little hominids just went on grunting incomprehensible gibberish, which somehow proves God's pre-planning.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Friday, May 08, 2015, 02:06 (3487 days ago) @ dhw
Dhw: Can you please point me to just one writer who interprets exaptations in terms of God's pre-planning? > DAVID: Tattersall discusses it in suggestive terms, not as forcefully as I do. > dhw: If McCrone has convinced you that these changes hung around for (hundreds of) thousands of years doing nothing, surely you can summarize his evidence.-McCrone uses the same evidence as other scholars: I present a group of articles defending the descended larynx:-http://asifg.mycpanel.princeton.edu/publications/pdfs/Ghazanfar&Rendall_Evolutionofvocalproduction.pdf-"The descended larynx One of the most conspicuous differences in vocal anatomy between human and nonhuman primates is the descended position of the larynx in the human vocal tract relative to its position higher in the vocal tract of nonhuman primates. The result is, effectively, a two-tube vocal tract in humans composed of the oral cavity common to all primates, and an additional enlarged pharyngeal cavity seen only in humans. This two-tube configuration, coupled with an agile tongue and a capacity for rapid mandible and lip movements, allows humans considerable articulatory latitude when vocalizing."-And another:-http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129083762-"The reason the neck started getting longer, Lieberman says, is that the tongue moved down, pulling the larynx lower, requiring more room for it all in the neck. "The first time we see human skulls — fossils — that have everything in place is about 50,000 years ago where the neck is long enough, the mouth is short enough, that they could have had a vocal tract like us," he says."-It is the accepted theory. I could spend hours finding quotes to support me. > > dhw: Please give us proven examples of the unused parts.-I'm sorry but I am quoting accepted wisdom of scholars in print I have presented. > > dhw: My apologies, but I am currently under huge time pressure. and am having difficulty keeping up with these exchanges. I will try to read the article soon, but in the meantime, a brief explanation of the evidence for non-use would be much appreciated.-Tattersall, an accepted paleontologist expert states it. I'm only a scientific reader of these folks. > > dhw: I'll leave Tony to argue his own case, which is different from mine. What is all this “thought to be about 50,000 years ago” and “how H. Erectus might have spoken”? Pure speculation. -There are scholarly items all over the internet. When you get time, read some about H. erectus and what he might have been able to say. Short bursts of speech, nothing prolonged as our capabilities.-> dhw:Try this for a theory: half a million years ago (or whatever), changes took place in the larynx, uvula etc. Since these changes are essential to human speech as we know it today, there is every possibility that human speech began half a million years ago. But some folk reckon the tools for speech were left unused for 450,000 years, and the poor little hominids just went on grunting incomprehensible gibberish, which somehow proves God's pre-planning.-Sorry, you need to read the literature. The changes started over 1.5 million years ago and the accepted start for our style of speaking is 50,000 years ago in scholarly articles.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Saturday, May 09, 2015, 11:30 (3486 days ago) @ David Turell
Dhw: If McCrone has convinced you that these changes hung around for (hundreds of) thousands of years doing nothing, surely you can summarize his evidence. -DAVID: McCrone uses the same evidence as other scholars: I present a group of articles defending the descended larynx.-I am not attacking the descended larynx. I am attacking your statement that “exaptations appear thousands to hundred of thousand years before any use is found for them. That is a key issue in the idea of pre-planning.” You have used the descended larynx as an example, and I have asked how you or anyone else can possibly know that the descended larynx was not used for (hundreds of) thousands of years. You referred me to a very long article, which I have now read, and there is not the slightest indication that the descended larynx or any other exaptation was not used for (hundreds of) thousands of years. You say that the “changes started over 1.5 million years ago and the accepted start for our style of speaking is 50,000 years ago.” How does that prove that the changes were not used for (hundreds of) thousands of years, and are therefore a key issue in the idea of pre-planning? How do you know that there was not a gradual increase in the range of sounds made by the relevant organisms, as is clearly suggested by the website you drew my attention to in your reply to Tony: QUOTE: Chimpanzee vocal tracts "could produce a range of at least 10 different phonemes, which appears to be the lower range of human phoneme inventories." This suggests that there was no pre-adaption of the vocal tract necessary to start the lineage speaking. For example, it is not necessary for the larynx to descend before speech sounds become possible. An ape with the motivation to speak could produce enough sounds to make a variety of single-word utterances. De Boer concludes, "Evidence of absence of a lowered larynx is therefore no evidence for the absence of speech in an ancestral hominin." So if we found a Homo erectus fossil in superb enough shape to determine the position of its larynx we could not use an undescended larynx to argue that erectus did not speak. Does that point mean that we evolved our vocal tract's present anatomy for some reason other than for proper speech? De Boer thinks not. He has made a series of calculations concerning the relation between vocal tract and position of the larynx and concludes that "there is indeed a larynx depth that results in the largest possible acoustic area covered" which happens to match human female anatomy. There was "a path of ever increasing fitness from a chimpanzee-like anatomy to the human (female) anatomy." This fitness path suggests that there has been a specific evolutionary trend toward maximizing the range of possible signals.” (my bold)-Absolutely no hint of a change that lay unused for (hundreds of) thousands of years. And forgive me, but I don't see how the writer's suggestion that the change was a pre-adaptation, and his asking what led to its formation, can constitute evidence of non-use or of divine pre-planning.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Saturday, May 09, 2015, 21:53 (3485 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: This fitness path suggests that there has been a specific evolutionary trend toward maximizing the range of possible signals.” [/i](my bold) > > Absolutely no hint of a change that lay unused for (hundreds of) thousands of years. And forgive me, but I don't see how the writer's suggestion that the change was a pre-adaptation, and his asking what led to its formation, can constitute evidence of non-use or of divine pre-planning.-My concept of exaptation in this area comes from Tattersall. I keep repeating that.-I've covered this in my reply to Tony. Of course, earlier forms used the equipment but in no way comparable to us. I assumed that was understood. My first book would have benefitted from your commentaries :-From my entry today: David to Tony: I would comment that all the anatomic changes between us and apes is not simple: a more arched palate, different tongue muscles, a different uvula, a different epiglottis in position and shape, different vocal cords and a speech area in the brain to handle the development of our complex language, with then differing areas for reading/writing and also speech. -In my McCrone book reference he discusses how H. habilis and H. erectus probably had a rudimentary form of speech and describes it. That is an obvious point to be covered, but the type of clipped bursts of air required for our style of speech arrived with H. sapiens under current theory. With the lack of fossil larynxes it is not known how well Neanderthals spoke but undoubtedly closer to our ability.
Evolution: a different view
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Sunday, May 10, 2015, 09:49 (3485 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: This fitness path suggests that there has been a specific evolutionary trend toward maximizing the range of possible signals.” [/i](my bold) > > > > Absolutely no hint of a change that lay unused for (hundreds of) thousands of years. And forgive me, but I don't see how the writer's suggestion that the change was a pre-adaptation, and his asking what led to its formation, can constitute evidence of non-use or of divine pre-planning. > >David: My concept of exaptation in this area comes from Tattersall. I keep repeating that. > > I've covered this in my reply to Tony. Of course, earlier forms used the equipment but in no way comparable to us. I assumed that was understood. My first book would have benefitted from your commentaries : > > From my entry today: David to Tony: I would comment that all the anatomic changes between us and apes is not simple: a more arched palate, different tongue muscles, a different uvula, a different epiglottis in position and shape, different vocal cords and a speech area in the brain to handle the development of our complex language, with then differing areas for reading/writing and also speech. > > In my McCrone book reference he discusses how H. habilis and H. erectus probably had a rudimentary form of speech and describes it. That is an obvious point to be covered, but the type of clipped bursts of air required for our style of speech arrived with H. sapiens under current theory. With the lack of fossil larynxes it is not known how well Neanderthals spoke but undoubtedly closer to our ability.-And my point remains that there is no evidence of any of this.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Sunday, May 10, 2015, 15:22 (3484 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
> Tony: And my point remains that there is no evidence of any of this.-I agree with you. It is all presumptive based on fossil evidence, but I accept the theory as presented.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Sunday, May 10, 2015, 21:13 (3484 days ago) @ David Turell
FOR SOME REASON, ALL OF THIS IS IN ITALICS, AND I CAN'T CHANGE IT. I HAVE PUT MY RESPONSES IN BOLD. - dhw:
: This fitness path suggests that there has been a specific evolutionary trend toward maximizing the range of possible signals.” Absolutely no hint of a change that lay unused for (hundreds of) thousands of years. And forgive me, but I don't see how the writer's suggestion that the change was a pre-adaptation, and his asking what led to its formation, can constitute evidence of non-use or of divine pre-planning.-DAVID: My concept of exaptation in this area comes from Tattersall. I keep repeating that.-MY RESPONSE: This is like Dawkins saying his concept of evolution comes from Darwin. What does that prove? If you can't defend the claim that exaptations, including the lowered larynx, denote features that hung around unused for (hundreds of) thousands of years, thereby providing a vital pointer to God's pre-planning, it would be better to rescind it, regardless of Tattersall. DAVID: I've covered this in my reply to Tony. Of course, earlier forms used the equipment but in no way comparable to us. I assumed that was understood. My first book would have benefitted from your commentaries :-MY RESPONSE: Thank you, but no, you have not covered it. Tony is actually challenging you on common descent, but in your response you are simply saying that in the course of evolution, important changes took place. That is what happens in evolution! Otherwise, we would have stuck at bacterial level. It does not prove that exaptations, including the lowered larynx, hung around unused etc. (see above), and that was the claim that sprouted this whole branch of the discussion between you and me.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Sunday, May 10, 2015, 21:49 (3484 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: It does not prove that exaptations, including the lowered larynx, hung around unused etc. (see above), and that was the claim that sprouted this whole branch of the discussion between you and me.[/b]-I cannot find them but I have put in here somewhere quotes that said both 'used' and 'unused' anatomic parts. I can't find them now. I'm still sticking with my interpretation and Tattersall's.
Evolution: a different method, polyploidy
by David Turell , Monday, May 11, 2015, 01:16 (3484 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by David Turell, Monday, May 11, 2015, 01:21
No one knows how it works, but some plants and some animals double up on DNA:-"It was a particularly rare find given hybrid plants of its kind are normally infertile. Instead, it doubled the amount of DNA in its cells and evolved to form a new species in a process known as polyploidisation, the same mechanism by which Wheat, Cotton and Tobacco originated."-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150506120527.htm-Here's the abstract:-"Whole genome duplication (polyploidisation) is a mechanism of “instantaneous” species formation that has played a major role in the evolutionary history of plants. Much of what we know about the early evolution of polyploids is based upon studies of a handful of recently formed species. A new polyploid hybrid (allopolyploid) species Mimulus peregrinus, formed within the last 140 years, was recently discovered on the Scottish mainland and corroborated by chromosome counts. Here, using targeted, high-depth sequencing of 1200 genic regions, we confirm the parental origins of this new species from M. x robertsii, a sterile triploid hybrid between the two introduced species M. guttatus and M. luteus that are naturalised and widespread in the United Kingdom. We also report a new population of M. peregrinus on the Orkney Islands and demonstrate that populations on the Scottish mainland and Orkney Islands arose independently via genome duplication from local populations of M. x robertsii. Our data raise the possibility that some alleles are already being lost in the evolving M. peregrinus genomes. The recent origins of a new species of the ecological model genus Mimulus via allopolyploidisation provide a powerful opportunity to explore the early stages of hybridisation and genome duplication in naturally evolved lineages. (paywall) - Mario Vallejo-Marín, Richard J. A. Buggs, Arielle M. Cooley, Joshua R. Puzey. Speciation by genome duplication: Repeated origins and genomic composition of the recently formed allopolyploid speciesMimulus peregrinus. Evolution, 2015; DOI: 10.1111/evo.12678"-Another article on the subject:-http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/artful-amoeba/2013/05/19/for-plants-polyploidy-is-not-a-four-letter-word/-Only two cases of successful polyploidy are known among birds, and only one among mammals: the South American red viscacha rat (which is much cuter than it sounds). It has four copies of its genome, which makes it tetraploid.-"Polyploidy is slightly more common among other animals. A few hundred cases of polyploidy are known in insects, reptiles, amphibians, crustaceans, fish, and other “lower” animals."
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Monday, May 11, 2015, 16:53 (3483 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: It does not prove that exaptations, including the lowered larynx, hung around unused etc. (see above), and that was the claim that sprouted this whole branch of the discussion between you and me.-DAVID: I cannot find them but I have put in here somewhere quotes that said both 'used' and 'unused' anatomic parts. I can't find them now. I'm still sticking with my interpretation and Tattersall's.- You quoted them on 2 May at 21.50, but every example we have discussed - feathers, limbs, the larynx, digestive systems - makes nonsense of the claim that they were unused for (hundreds of) thousands of years, which is something no-one can possibly know! You have made it clear anyway that not even Tattersall goes as far as you. That doesn't mean you're wrong, of course, but I don't like to think of you getting lonely in your inapt exaltation of the exaptation as promising proof of preprogramming!
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Monday, May 11, 2015, 21:49 (3483 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: You have made it clear anyway that not even Tattersall goes as far as you. That doesn't mean you're wrong, of course, but I don't like to think of you getting lonely in your inapt exaltation of the exaptation as promising proof of preprogramming!-Exaptation may be a new anatomical part used or unused, per many authors. Further one cannot explain the drop in the larynx, the increasing arch of the palate, the change in tongue muscles, the larger uvula and soft palate adaptations by pointing to any known environmental challenge that would require such changes. They all look teleological in anticipation of speech. Especially in view of the choking danger invented by these changes! Do changes often produce dangerous issues or solve problems. Tell me what was solved early on?
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 22:42 (3482 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Exaptation may be a new anatomical part used or unused, per many authors. Further one cannot explain the drop in the larynx, the increasing arch of the palate, the change in tongue muscles, the larger uvula and soft palate adaptations by pointing to any known environmental challenge that would require such changes. They all look teleological in anticipation of speech. Especially in view of the choking danger invented by these changes! Do changes often produce dangerous issues or solve problems. Tell me what was solved early on?-You consistently ignore my argument that evolution is not just a matter of environmental challenges REQUIRING changes. As you yourself keep pointing out, if that were the case, evolution need not have progressed beyond bacteria. There is a drive towards improvement, and that is where the inventive mechanism (as opposed to adaptive) comes into play. The scenario I suggested for the above was that if/when a group of apes descended from the trees, for whatever reason, and began a new way of life, they may have found their language inadequate for their purposes. The desire to produce new sounds may (of course it's all hypothetical) have resulted in the changes you have described - just as the brain may have grown more complex as a result of new tasks our ancestors were setting themselves. Muscles can be made to grow with exercise; we know that many organisms change their structure in order to adapt. I am suggesting that the process you have described followed the same course. And the cell communities involved in the process would have cooperated to avoid the danger of choking. All innovations require cooperation between the cell communities within an organism.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 00:33 (3482 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: You consistently ignore my argument that evolution is not just a matter of environmental challenges REQUIRING changes. As you yourself keep pointing out, if that were the case, evolution need not have progressed beyond bacteria. There is a drive towards improvement, and that is where the inventive mechanism (as opposed to adaptive) comes into play. -I haven't emphasized the point you have just presented, but I described a probable 'drive to complexity' in my first book. I thoroughly agree with you.-> dhw:The scenario I suggested for the above was that if/when a group of apes descended from the trees, for whatever reason, and began a new way of life, they may have found their language inadequate for their purposes. The desire to produce new sounds may (of course it's all hypothetical) have resulted in the changes you have described - just as the brain may have grown more complex as a result of new tasks our ancestors were setting themselves.-Interesting concept evolution by desire! Wish hard enough and it happens. Yipes!-> dhw: Muscles can be made to grow with exercise; we know that many organisms change their structure in order to adapt.-How does one adapt to something that is not present, the ability to speak rudimentary language. Once the changes appear, then one can see the progression you bring up by magical thinking and wishing.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Thursday, May 14, 2015, 13:46 (3480 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: The scenario I suggested for the above was that if/when a group of apes descended from the trees, for whatever reason, and began a new way of life, they may have found their language inadequate for their purposes. The desire to produce new sounds may (of course it's all hypothetical) have resulted in the changes you have described - just as the brain may have grown more complex as a result of new tasks our ancestors were setting themselves.-DAVID: Interesting concept evolution by desire! Wish hard enough and it happens. Yipes!-Of course evolution has to be connected to desire. The primal desire is to survive. Unless you wish to argue that your God preplanned every adaptation or intervened personally to make it possible, you are forced to agree that there is a mechanism within individual organisms that in some cases enables them to fulfil that desire.(In others, it fails.) I am extending the desire to survive to the desire to improve, and you have agreed with this, as well as with the suggestion that some individual organisms may be cleverer than others, which would make them more capable of innovation. And so if you believe in common descent, each step from bacteria onwards is the result of a desire for survival or improvement. That doesn't mean you can wish for anything and get it, which is the implication of your response. It means that within the limits of their own capabilities, some cell communities find new ways of exploiting new conditions, others simply adapt, and others die. dhw: Muscles can be made to grow with exercise; we know that many organisms change their structure in order to adapt. DAVID: How does one adapt to something that is not present, the ability to speak rudimentary language. Once the changes appear, then one can see the progression you bring up by magical thinking and wishing.-Firstly, your objection applies to all innovations, and the answer I have suggested is that all the cell communities cooperate to enable the innovation to function. Secondly, your assumption that our ancestors did not “speak rudimentary language” is quite extraordinary. How do you think they communicated? In this context, however, I do not accept that “language” is confined to what you and I are familiar with. The fact that we do not speak ape language does not mean that ape language is not language, and a lowered larynx does not mean earlier apes or hominids did not use the larynx they had to make sounds that were intelligible to each other. And I still don't know why you think it must have hung around for (hundreds of) thousands of years doing nothing, as if our ancestors all stopped talking to one another.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Thursday, May 14, 2015, 19:05 (3480 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: Firstly, your objection applies to all innovations, and the answer I have suggested is that all the cell communities cooperate to enable the innovation to function. Secondly, your assumption that our ancestors did not “speak rudimentary language” is quite extraordinary.-Perhaps you haven't noticed it but I have fully stated that McCrone describes how he thinks H. habilis and H. erectus spoke in their rudimentary language. And certainly we know that monkeys have hoots and grunts that have meaning to them. They are thoroughly described. Early hominids did the same thing, obviously. The point you refuse to accept/respect is that the very special preparations anatomically developed for future language introduced danger and the current language abilty began about 50-100,000 years ago.-> dhw And I still don't know why you think it must have hung around for (hundreds of) thousands of years doing nothing, as if our ancestors all stopped talking to one another.-I repeat, have you followed everything I have written? It hung around all those years not being used at the level it was made for in advance. That is the key to the concept. You must say it looks as if the anatomic changes were planned for in advance of our complex language.
Evolution: a different view
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Friday, May 15, 2015, 17:47 (3479 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw And I still don't know why you think it must have hung around for (hundreds of) thousands of years doing nothing, as if our ancestors all stopped talking to one another. > >David: I repeat, have you followed everything I have written? It hung around all those years not being used at the level it was made for in advance. That is the key to the concept. You must say it looks as if the anatomic changes were planned for in advance of our complex language.-Q: How do you know it was unused? A: We don't, but we assume it wasn't used because to assume otherwise is contrary to the theory of evolution, and our perception of early humanoids as knuckle dragging howling monkey men.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Friday, May 15, 2015, 18:03 (3479 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
> Tony: Q: How do you know it was unused? > A: We don't, but we assume it wasn't used because to assume otherwise is contrary to the theory of evolution, and our perception of early humanoids as knuckle dragging howling monkey men.-Once again, it was assumed it was used. McCrone describes how he thinks H. habilis and H. erectus had some speech.
Evolution: a different view
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Saturday, May 16, 2015, 12:55 (3479 days ago) @ David Turell
> > Tony: Q: How do you know it was unused? > > A: We don't, but we assume it wasn't used because to assume otherwise is contrary to the theory of evolution, and our perception of early humanoids as knuckle dragging howling monkey men. > >David: Once again, it was assumed it was used. McCrone describes how he thinks H. habilis and H. erectus had some speech.-Yes, but it was assumed it was used as grunts and groans, not the eloquent speech we have today. That assumption is squarely based on the assumption that they were knuckle-dragging cave-dwellers, which in turn is squarely based on the theory of evolution's blueprint of common decent from apes. -It is a form of mental gymnastics used to show that we are superior to our ancestors despite the evidence. And I say despite the evidence because, when that evolutionary view is removed, the picture that is painted by the evidence is quite different than the story we tell ourselves today. -In short, they were stronger, faster, hardier, more resilient, and quite likely every bit as intelligent and clever as we are today, if not more so. What we need specialized tools to do, they were able to do without. For example, has anyone ever considered the possibility that they simply did not NEED to write? The possibility of eidetic memory being common instead of rare? The lack of medicines being because disease/illness was virtually non-existent? -Yes, technologically we are more advanced, but technology is a crutch that we use to compensate for our own weaknesses, weaknesses that they did not necessarily share. -http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/f0100-stone-bracelet-is-oldest-ever-found-in-the-world/->"Near one of the cracks was a drilled hole with a diameter of about 0.8 cm. Studying them, scientists found out that the speed of rotation of the drill was rather high, fluctuations minimal, and that was there was applied drilling with an implement - technology that is common for more recent times." > >"'The ancient master was skilled in techniques previously considered not characteristic for the Palaeolithic era, such as drilling with an implement, boring tool type rasp, grinding and polishing with a leather and skins of varying degrees of tanning.'" > >"The institute's deputy director Mikhail Shunkov suggested that the find indicates the Denisovans - though now extinct - were more advanced than Homo sapiens and Neanderthals."-Let's now somewhere, I can't recall, there was a story about a people that were builders of cities and used metal and such that were completely wiped out. Now, we see in the archaeology that there was a technological reset between and earlier group and a later group. How convenient.....
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Saturday, May 16, 2015, 21:49 (3478 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
Tony: Yes, but it was assumed it was used as grunts and groans, not the eloquent speech we have today. That assumption is squarely based on the assumption that they were knuckle-dragging cave-dwellers, which in turn is squarely based on the theory of evolution's blueprint of common decent from apes.-No, McCrone assumes short clipped series of a few words, based on anatomy for H. erectus > > Tony: It is a form of mental gymnastics used to show that we are superior to our ancestors despite the evidence. And I say despite the evidence because, when that evolutionary view is removed, the picture that is painted by the evidence is quite different than the story we tell ourselves today.-Yours is an interesting and basically controversial viewpoint, not assuming evolution. The brains of H habilis were 550-680 cc and H. erectus were 850-1100 compared to our 1250-1300 size. Assuming size enlargement with growth in complexity would negate your approach, but you don't think abut evolution as I do. H. sapiens is superior. > > tony:In short, they were stronger, faster, hardier, more resilient, and quite likely every bit as intelligent and clever as we are today, if not more so. What we need specialized tools to do, they were able to do without. For example, has anyone ever considered the possibility that they simply did not NEED to write? The possibility of eidetic memory being common instead of rare? The lack of medicines being because disease/illness was virtually non-existent?-The only difference I see, IF you are referring only to early H. sapiens is they lived as feral animals. Probably in small cooperative groups. With short lifespans. The specialization today in civilized humans results in having survival classes for the soldiers and in civilian life, as no one knows how to survive unless taught. If you are referring to earlier forms, E e and E h, your thoughts make no sense to me. > > tony: Yes, technologically we are more advanced, but technology is a crutch that we use to compensate for our own weaknesses, weaknesses that they did not necessarily share. -Early humans were taller and stronger. The smaller and weaker forms came with agriculture. That is well-known. > > Tony: http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/f0100-stone-bracelet-is-oldest-ever... article. I read it thoroughly as it gave me info I hadn't seen before about Denisovans. Thank you!-> Tony: Let's now somewhere, I can't recall, there was a story about a people that were builders of cities and used metal and such that were completely wiped out. Now, we see in the archaeology that there was a technological reset between and earlier group and a later group. How convenient.....-We have four groups of Homo to study: Denisovans, Floresiensis, Neanderthal and us. How do you explain their existence if evolution did not happen?
Evolution: a different view
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Sunday, May 17, 2015, 08:47 (3478 days ago) @ David Turell
David: No, McCrone assumes short clipped series of a few words, based on anatomy for H. erectus > > > The brains of H habilis were 550-680 cc and H. erectus were 850-1100 compared to our 1250-1300 size. > > > The only difference I see, IF you are referring only to early H. sapiens is they lived as feral animals. Probably in small cooperative groups. With short lifespans. The specialization today in civilized humans results in having survival classes for the soldiers and in civilian life, as no one knows how to survive unless taught. If you are referring to earlier forms, E e and E h, your thoughts make no sense to me.- I normally try not to pull anything from ICR, but this was interesting in that one article addresses all your points. -http://www.icr.org/article/neanderthals-are-still-human/
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Friday, May 15, 2015, 22:33 (3479 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Muscles can be made to grow with exercise; we know that many organisms change their structure in order to adapt. DAVID: How does one adapt to something that is not present, the ability to speak rudimentary language. Once the changes appear, then one can see the progression you bring up by magical thinking and wishing.-dhw: Firstly, your objection applies to all innovations, and the answer I have suggested is that all the cell communities cooperate to enable the innovation to function. Secondly, your assumption that our ancestors did not “speak rudimentary language” is quite extraordinary.-DAVID: Perhaps you haven't noticed it but I have fully stated that McCrone describes how he thinks H. habilis and H. erectus spoke in their rudimentary language. And certainly we know that monkeys have hoots and grunts that have meaning to them. They are thoroughly described. Early hominids did the same thing, obviously. -Then why did you ask: “How does one adapt to something that is not present, the ability to speak rudimentary language”? The ability to speak rudimentary language was already present. DAVID: The point you refuse to accept/respect is that the very special preparations anatomically developed for future language introduced danger and the current language abilty began about 50-100,000 years ago.-I have discussed the danger earlier. Why do you assume that the very special preparations were made thousands of years before they were used? How do you know that the variety of sounds did not increase as the anatomy changed? Or that the anatomy was not changed by the need our ancestors had for a wider variety of sounds to communicate their ever increasing knowledge? What record do you have of language that was used 150,000 years ago? 200,000 years ago? 500,000 years ago? 	 dhw And I still don't know why you think it must have hung around for (hundreds of) thousands of years doing nothing, as if our ancestors all stopped talking to one another. DAVID: I repeat, have you followed everything I have written? It hung around all those years not being used at the level it was made for in advance. That is the key to the concept. -How can you or anyone know that when the vocal structure reached its present state, our ancestors did not use it in precisely the same way that we do, but the sounds they then produced increased in complexity in exactly the same way as the languages we now speak and write have increased in complexity since we were first able to record them? DAVID: You must say it looks as if the anatomic changes were planned for in advance of our complex language.-Or the anatomic changes took place because our ancestors needed them to develop an increasingly complex language, just as anatomic changes take place when conditions dictate change or death (= adaptation). That would be how an autonomous inventive mechanism would work: cells cooperating to create improvements, and in this case no doubt improvements upon improvements.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Saturday, May 16, 2015, 00:17 (3479 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: Why do you assume that the very special preparations were made thousands of years before they were used?-Because I have followed the lead of the theories of McCrone and Tattersall. McCrone has descriptions of how H. habilis and H. erectus spoke.-> dhw: How do you know that the variety of sounds did not increase as the anatomy changed? Or that the anatomy was not changed by the need our ancestors had for a wider variety of sounds to communicate their ever increasing knowledge? What record do you have of language that was used 150,000 years ago? 200,000 years ago? 500,000 years ago? -No one has such a record, but McCrone has descriptions of how he thinks H h. and H e. spoke. You are right that monkey hoots and howls gave way to some type of slightly more advanced sounds at some point in the process. Again H. sapiens arrived about 250,000 years ago and current theory says more complex language began about 50,000 years ago becoming what we have today. McCrone says that todays' refined language requires the preparation of the prior anatomic changes we now use. If you accept the gaps in time indicated, it makes perfect sense to me, the anatomy came well before the current result we use. > > How can you or anyone know that when the vocal structure reached its present state, our ancestors did not use it in precisely the same way that we do, but the sounds they then produced increased in complexity in exactly the same way as the languages we now speak and write have increased in complexity since we were first able to record them?-I know you don't have the time to read McCrone's theoretical descriptions, based on his knowledge of the anatomy as it developed, but I have and he makes it seem very logical to me. > > DAVID: You must say it looks as if the anatomic changes were planned for in advance of our complex language. > > dhw: Or the anatomic changes took place because our ancestors needed them to develop an increasingly complex language, just as anatomic changes take place when conditions dictate change or death (= adaptation). That would be how an autonomous inventive mechanism would work: cells cooperating to create improvements, and in this case no doubt improvements upon improvements.-I still point to the theoretical gaps in time, anatomic changes well before current complex use of speech.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Sunday, May 17, 2015, 12:26 (3478 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: How do you know that the variety of sounds did not increase as the anatomy changed? Or that the anatomy was not changed by the need our ancestors had for a wider variety of sounds to communicate their ever increasing knowledge? What record do you have of language that was used 150,000 years ago? 200,000 years ago? 500,000 years ago? DAVID: No one has such a record, but McCrone has descriptions of how he thinks H h. and H e. spoke. You are right that monkey hoots and howls gave way to some type of slightly more advanced sounds at some point in the process. Again H. sapiens arrived about 250,000 years ago and current theory says more complex language began about 50,000 years ago becoming what we have today. McCrone says that todays' refined language requires the preparation of the prior anatomic changes we now use. If you accept the gaps in time indicated, it makes perfect sense to me, the anatomy came well before the current result we use.-Of course no one has such a record. “Has descriptions of how he thinks...”, “current theory says...” = pure speculation. And of course today's language requires the anatomy we now have. But why should anyone accept the gaps in time indicated, when they are nothing but theory and somebody's opinion? You are quick to reject bacterial intelligence - a theory which is based fairly and squarely on direct observation - but when someone comes up with a theory which you like and which cannot be based on any direct evidence or observation, you don't even question it. dhw: How can you or anyone know that when the vocal structure reached its present state, our ancestors did not use it in precisely the same way that we do, but the sounds they then produced increased in complexity in exactly the same way as the languages we now speak and write have increased in complexity since we were first able to record them? DAVID: I know you don't have the time to read McCrone's theoretical descriptions, based on his knowledge of the anatomy as it developed, but I have and he makes it seem very logical to me.-I am pleased that you are now repeatedly using the words “theory” and “theoretical”. I am in no position to discuss how or when or how quickly the anatomy developed, but you know as well as I do that NOBODY can tell us what sort of language that anatomy was used for.-DAVID: I still point to the theoretical gaps in time, anatomic changes well before current complex use of speech.-“Theoretical”. Pure speculation. No possibility of evidence. I am reminded of the tirade against “bad science” under “Current science: fraudulent thinking”. (This may be unfair, as I haven't read the book, but I can only comment on what you tell us.)
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Sunday, May 17, 2015, 19:41 (3477 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID McCrone says that todays' refined language requires the preparation of the prior anatomic changes we now use. If you accept the gaps in time indicated, it makes perfect sense to me, the anatomy came well before the current result we use.[/i] > > dhw: Of course no one has such a record. “Has descriptions of how he thinks...”, “current theory says...” = pure speculation. And of course today's language requires the anatomy we now have. But why should anyone accept the gaps in time indicated, when they are nothing but theory and somebody's opinion? -They are based upon fossil record from apes to now, and preceded modern spoken language by millions of years-> > dhw: I am pleased that you are now repeatedly using the words “theory” and “theoretical”. I am in no position to discuss how or when or how quickly the anatomy developed, but you know as well as I do that NOBODY can tell us what sort of language that anatomy was used for.-McCrone's descriptions talk about handling bursts of air and how a few words could have been produced. He is the expert, I'm not, and I'm simply reporting his discussion. Since I have no other, I accept it as realistic.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Monday, May 18, 2015, 22:41 (3476 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: McCrone says that todays' refined language requires the preparation of the prior anatomic changes we now use. If you accept the gaps in time indicated, it makes perfect sense to me, the anatomy came well before the current result we use.[/-dhw: [i]Of course no one has such a record. “Has descriptions of how he thinks...”, “current theory says...” = pure speculation. And of course today's language requires the anatomy we now have. But why should anyone accept the gaps in time indicated, when they are nothing but theory and somebody's opinion? -DAVID: They are based upon fossil record from apes to now, and preceded modern spoken language by millions of years-The observations of anatomical changes may be based upon fossil records, but statements about how those changes were used are pure speculation. Of course the fossils preceded MODERN spoken language by millions of years - you might as well say million-year-old fossils preceded you and me by a million years. But we don't know what language was spoken millions of years ago.-dhw: I am pleased that you are now repeatedly using the words “theory” and “theoretical”. I am in no position to discuss how or when or how quickly the anatomy developed, but you know as well as I do that NOBODY can tell us what sort of language that anatomy was used for.-DAVID: McCrone's descriptions talk about handling bursts of air and how a few words could have been produced. He is the expert, I'm not, and I'm simply reporting his discussion. Since I have no other, I accept it as realistic.-Nobody can possibly be an expert on what languages were spoken 100,000 years ago, let alone millions of years ago. Perhaps you accept it because you would like to see it as evidence of pre-planning, just as some atheists accept multiverse theories because they help the atheist cause. Pots and kettles.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Tuesday, May 19, 2015, 01:02 (3476 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: The observations of anatomical changes may be based upon fossil records, but statements about how those changes were used are pure speculation. Of course the fossils preceded MODERN spoken language by millions of years - you might as well say million-year-old fossils preceded you and me by a million years. But we don't know what language was spoken millions of years ago. > > dhw: I am pleased that you are now repeatedly using the words “theory” and “theoretical”. I am in no position to discuss how or when or how quickly the anatomy developed, but you know as well as I do that NOBODY can tell us what sort of language that anatomy was used for.-Of course not, but can you deny that it was very primitive? > > DAVID: McCrone's descriptions talk about handling bursts of air and how a few words could have been produced. He is the expert, I'm not, and I'm simply reporting his discussion. Since I have no other, I accept it as realistic. > > dhw: Nobody can possibly be an expert on what languages were spoken 100,000 years ago, let alone millions of years ago. Perhaps you accept it because you would like to see it as evidence of pre-planning, just as some atheists accept multiverse theories because they help the atheist cause. Pots and kettles.-Do you imply that there was a Will S. among the H. erectus folks? Simple language, of course, and from the scientific observation that their anatomy only allowed a few words at a time. Full anatomy for speech appeared only 250,000 years ago., Neanderthals did not have a fully formed palate arch and a weaker chin than we have. They appeared somewhat before us, and I'm sure had language and speech, but it looks as if not at our level of development,
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 19:33 (3474 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I am pleased that you are now repeatedly using the words “theory” and “theoretical”. I am in no position to discuss how or when or how quickly the anatomy developed, but you know as well as I do that NOBODY can tell us what sort of language that anatomy was used for. DAVID: Of course not, but can you deny that it was very primitive?-Nobody knows what kind of language was spoken, so I certainly can't deny it. But I have little doubt that it would indeed have been far, far simpler than our own, if only because we live in an increasingly complex world, all of which has to be covered by our language. Even modern language has evolved beyond all recognition from its earliest records. However, that is not the matter in dispute between us. See below.-dhw: Nobody can possibly be an expert on what languages were spoken 100,000 years ago, let alone millions of years ago. Perhaps you accept it because you would like to see it as evidence of pre-planning, just as some atheists accept multiverse theories because they help the atheist cause. Pots and kettles. DAVID: Do you imply that there was a Will S. among the H. erectus folks? Simple language, of course, and from the scientific observation that their anatomy only allowed a few words at a time. Full anatomy for speech appeared only 250,000 years ago., Neanderthals did not have a fully formed palate arch and a weaker chin than we have. They appeared somewhat before us, and I'm sure had language and speech, but it looks as if not at our level of development.-You have subtly changed the subject. I do not question the idea that the anatomy kept changing, and that language has evolved. Our disagreement is over your original claim that the changes were not used, and somehow the evolution of the anatomy and of language indicates divine pre-programming (hundreds of) thousands of years in advance. Let me remind you of what you wrote on 2 May at 21.40: DAVID: Exaptations appear thousands to hundred of thousands of years before any use is found for them. That is the key issue in the idea of pre-planning. -And: “Please re-read in my book pages 130-131 for further discussion. The larynx and other changes are right on point.”-You now accept that the changes must have been used for a more “primitive” language. That means they were used. And so it's goodbye to a key issue in the idea of pre-planning.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 20:48 (3474 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: You now accept that the changes must have been used for a more “primitive” language. That means they were used. And so it's goodbye to a key issue in the idea of pre-planning.-We have a very subtle and complex form of speech, for which all those changes were pre-arranged. Definitely pre-planning for what came after the earliest attempts at speech that used the voice mechanisms as they developed.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Friday, May 22, 2015, 08:27 (3473 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID (2 May at 21.40): Exaptations appear thousands to hundred of thousands of years before any use is found for them. That is the key issue in the idea of pre-planning. And: “Please re-read in my book pages 130-131 for further discussion. The larynx and other changes are right on point.”-Dhw: You now accept that the changes must have been used for a more “primitive” language. That means they were used. And so it's goodbye to a key issue in the idea of pre-planning.-DAVID: We have a very subtle and complex form of speech for which all those changes were prearranged. Definitely pre-planning for what came after the earliest attempts at speech that used the voice mechanisms as they developed.-Please reread your post of 2 May, as above. Your point both there and in your first book was that the changes were NOT used, and that was your evidence of pre-planning. You now agree that they WERE used, and so you have lost your “evidence” that they were pre-planned and prearranged. Of course you are free to reiterate your belief as emphatically as you possibly can (“definitely pre-planning”), but such emphasis does not hide the fact that by your own admission you have lost “the key issue”.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Friday, May 22, 2015, 21:51 (3472 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: Please reread your post of 2 May, as above. Your point both there and in your first book was that the changes were NOT used, and that was your evidence of pre-planning. You now agree that they WERE used, and so you have lost your “evidence” that they were pre-planned and prearranged.-Not at all. Your view and mine of that history totally differ. As human hands gained dexterity to the point that we do things like play a piano. violin, knit, etc, of course those hands were used in a prior less complex way by earlier hominids. It is the same with speech. I've admitted in retrospect that I should have been clearer in my first book. Of course used but not as used today in the requirements for modern speech as described by McCrone. Most of it started changing million of years before our quality of speech could be attained. Still preplanning to me, still an exaptation, because it was not used in the way we do now. Exaptation is still defined as used or unused as definitions from others I have provided in the past.
Evolution: a different view
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Saturday, May 23, 2015, 12:03 (3472 days ago) @ David Turell
> > dhw: Please reread your post of 2 May, as above. Your point both there and in your first book was that the changes were NOT used, and that was your evidence of pre-planning. You now agree that they WERE used, and so you have lost your “evidence” that they were pre-planned and prearranged. > >David: Not at all. Your view and mine of that history totally differ. As human hands gained dexterity to the point that we do things like play a piano. violin, knit, etc, of course those hands were used in a prior less complex way by earlier hominids. It is the same with speech. I've admitted in retrospect that I should have been clearer in my first book. Of course used but not as used today in the requirements for modern speech as described by McCrone. Most of it started changing million of years before our quality of speech could be attained. Still preplanning to me, still an exaptation, because it was not used in the way we do now. Exaptation is still defined as used or unused as definitions from others I have provided in the past.-Doesn't the delicately crafted jewelry that I linked in that article kind of shoot holes in that theory? Jewelry making requires a lot of dexterity for the fine work.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Saturday, May 23, 2015, 15:00 (3471 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
David: Exaptation is still defined as used or unused as definitions from others I have provided in the past. > > Tony: Doesn't the delicately crafted jewelry that I linked in that article kind of shoot holes in that theory? Jewelry making requires a lot of dexterity for the fine work.-I was referring to a time line older than your article. First you get an opposable thumb, then the fingers become more delicate, the plastic brain wires differently, etc. I was referring to a developmental process as being an exaptation.
Evolution: a different view
by dhw, Sunday, May 24, 2015, 17:35 (3470 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Please reread your post of 2 May, as above. Your point both there and in your first book was that the changes were NOT used, and that was your evidence of pre-planning. You now agree that they WERE used, and so you have lost your “evidence” that they were pre-planned and prearranged.-DAVID: Not at all. Your view and mine of that history totally differ. As human hands gained dexterity to the point that we do things like play a piano. violin, knit, etc, of course those hands were used in a prior less complex way by earlier hominids. It is the same with speech. I've admitted in retrospect that I should have been clearer in my first book. Of course used but not as used today in the requirements for modern speech as described by McCrone. Most of it started changing million of years before our quality of speech could be attained. Still preplanning to me, still an exaptation, because it was not used in the way we do now. Exaptation is still defined as used or unused as definitions from others I have provided in the past.-Our views of the history are exactly the same. The difference between us is that you insist that all the changes in that history were geared to the production of humans (even though you don't know why so many of the variations were jettisoned), whereas I am prepared to consider at least three alternative explanations. The whole of evolution entails changes that began millions of years ago, and there is no reason to assume that every single change was not used for a specific purpose at the time, and may even have come into being as a result of a particular need or opportunity that arose at the time. The fact that uses have changed does not seem to me to denote pre-planning. “Unused” may be part of the definition of exaptations that you prefer, but it is clearly impossible to prove that any organ was not used at the time when it came into existence.-I think the above also covers Tony's claim that “Humans were planned and designed to be able to communicate, and all the necessary morphological differences that were needed for that to happen were planned into our design.” If you begin with the premise that God planned humans, then the rest of your argument follows. It is your basic premise that I am challenging. David is grateful for your support, but unlike you has to face the insoluble problem that the anthropocentric theory does not fit in with the history of evolution.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Sunday, May 24, 2015, 18:57 (3470 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: The fact that uses have changed does not seem to me to denote pre-planning. “Unused” may be part of the definition of exaptations that you prefer, but it is clearly impossible to prove that any organ was not used at the time when it came into existence.-You refuse to look at the viewpoint that the vocal tract was never used in the way for which it was designed over millennia until modern language appeared. Of course it was used in a simpler way when the tract itself was simpler. If H. sapiens arrived 250,000 years ago and spent the next 200,000 years learning how to use it for modern language, this fits my theory, and it fits the current interpretation of language development, one of the major items that makes us very unique > > dhw: I think the above also covers Tony's claim that “Humans were planned and designed to be able to communicate, and all the necessary morphological differences that were needed for that to happen were planned into our design.” If you begin with the premise that God planned humans, then the rest of your argument follows. It is your basic premise that I am challenging. David is grateful for your support, but unlike you has to face the insoluble problem that the anthropocentric theory does not fit in with the history of evolution.-Only under your interpretation is it insoluble.
Evolution: a different view of heart design
by David Turell , Saturday, August 22, 2020, 22:53 (1553 days ago) @ dhw
The inside of the left ventricle is corrugated with muscle bundles humped up into the cavity, known for 500 years, but only now explained. Smooth is not good, but this design is ideal in pumping blood:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200819110925.htm
"The study, published in the journal Nature, sheds light on questions asked by Leonardo da Vinci 500 years ago, and shows how the shape of these muscles impacts heart performance and heart failure.
"In humans, the heart is the first functional organ to develop and starts beating spontaneously only four weeks after conception. Early in development, the heart grows an intricate network of muscle fibers -- called trabeculae -- that form geometric patterns on the heart's inner surface. These are thought to help oxygenate the developing heart, but their function in adults has remained an unsolved puzzle since the 16th century.
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"The research suggests that the rough surface of the heart ventricles allows blood to flow more efficiently during each heartbeat, just like the dimples on a golf ball reduce air resistance and help the ball travel further.
"The study also highlights six regions in human DNA that affect how the fractal patterns in these muscle fibers develop. Intriguingly, the researchers found that two of these regions also regulate branching of nerve cells, suggesting a similar mechanism may be at work in the developing brain.
"The researchers discovered that the shape of trabeculae affects the performance of the heart, suggesting a potential link to heart disease. To confirm this, they analyzed genetic data from 50,000 patients and found that different fractal patterns in these muscle fibers affected the risk of developing heart failure. Nearly five million Americans suffer from congestive heart failure."
Comment: Unfortunately we do not have fossilized hearts to see if this degree of design efficiency was present at the beginning of pumping hearts or developed over time. I think God designed this pattern from the beginning.
Evolution: a different view
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Saturday, May 23, 2015, 11:30 (3472 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: We have a very subtle and complex form of speech for which all those changes were prearranged. Definitely pre-planning for what came after the earliest attempts at speech that used the voice mechanisms as they developed. > >DHW: Please reread your post of 2 May, as above. Your point both there and in your first book was that the changes were NOT used, and that was your evidence of pre-planning. You now agree that they WERE used, and so you have lost your “evidence” that they were pre-planned and prearranged. Of course you are free to reiterate your belief as emphatically as you possibly can (“definitely pre-planning”), but such emphasis does not hide the fact that by your own admission you have lost “the key issue”.-I think you are over-reaching here just slightly. Just because something was used when it was implemented does not negate pre-planning, nor does it remove the evidence for preplanning. Humans were planned and designed to be able to communication, and all the necessary morphological differences that were needed for that to happen were planned into our design.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Saturday, May 23, 2015, 14:36 (3471 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
> Tony: I think you are over-reaching here just slightly. Just because something was used when it was implemented does not negate pre-planning, nor does it remove the evidence for preplanning. Humans were planned and designed to be able to communication, and all the necessary morphological differences that were needed for that to happen were planned into our design.-Thank you. The requirements for our type of very specialized speech began to develop millions of years ago, but our current language abilities are thought to be recent, within the past 100,000 years.
Evolution: Micro vs. macroevolution
by David Turell , Tuesday, June 02, 2015, 23:22 (3461 days ago) @ David Turell
A vast difference. We have no examples of macroevolution:-http://p2c.com/students/blogs/kirk-durston/2015/05/microevolution-vs-macroevolution-two-mistakes-"The definition of macroevolution is surprisingly non-precise for a scientific discipline. Macroevolution can be defined as evolution above the species level, or evolution on a ‘grand scale', or microevolution + 3.8 billion years. It has never been observed, but a theoretical example is the evolution from a chordate eel-like creature to a human being. Many people who embrace Darwinian evolution confidently state that evolution is a proven fact, not a theory. They say this in the basis of thousands of papers discussing microevolution. Herein lays the second mistake … the assumption that because variation/microevolution is such an overwhelmingly proven fact that, therefore, macroevolution must be as well.-"Macroevolution is very different from microevolution. The reason there are so many countless observations of variation/microevolution is that it requires no statistically significant levels of novel genetic information; it is trivially easy to achieve. The reason that macroevolution has never been observed is that it requires statistically significant levels of novel genetic information. It is extremely difficult to achieve, but Darwinian theory predicts that genetic information can significantly increase over time. Falsifiable predictions can be made which we will examine later in this series. In order to clearly distinguish between microevolution and macroevolution in a rigorous scientific way, let me propose the following definitions, which I will continue to use:-"Microevolution: genetic variation that requires no statistically significant increase in functional information.-"Macroevolution: genetic change that requires a statistically significant increase in functional information."
Evolution: Micro vs. macroevolution
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Wednesday, June 03, 2015, 07:40 (3461 days ago) @ David Turell
I couldn't agree more. It gets worse when evolutionist define evolution simple as 'change over time.' I don't think anyone, anywhere, has an issue with saying things change, we simply disagree on how much they change. For example, I am fond of saying a dog is a dog is a dog, and all it can ever be is a dog. It can be one of hundreds of different varieties of dog, but it will never, ever be a cat.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: Computer simulations of mutations
by David Turell , Monday, June 08, 2015, 22:18 (3455 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
The study makes a series of assumptions about mutations, ignoring epigenetics, so their assumptions influence their results. Of course evolution is a contingent series of unpredictable events:-"The study focuses exclusively on the type of evolution known as purifying selection, which favors mutations that have no or only a small effect in a fixed environment. This is in contrast to adaptation, in which mutations are selected if they increase an organism's fitness in a new environment. Purifying selection is by far the more common type of selection.-"'It's the simplest, most boring type of evolution you can imagine," Plotkin said. "Purifying selection is just asking an organism to do what it's doing and keep doing it well."-"As an evolutionary model, the Penn team used the bacterial protein argT, for which the three-dimensional structure is known. Its small size means that the researchers could reliably predict how a given genetic mutation would affect the protein's stability.-"Using a computational model, they simulated the protein evolving during the equivalent of roughly 10 million years by randomly introducing mutations, accepting them if they did not significantly affect the protein's stability and rejecting them if they did. They then examined pairs of mutations, asking whether the later mutation would have been accepted had the earlier mutation not have been made. -***-"An implication of these findings is that predicting the course of evolution, as one might wish to do, say, to make an educated guess as to what flu strain might arise in a given year, is not easy.-"'The way these substitutions occur, since they're highly contingent on what happened before, makes predictions of long-term evolution extremely difficult," Plotkin said.-"The researchers hope to partner with other groups in the future to conduct laboratory experiments with microbes to confirm that real-world evolution supports their findings.-"And while Gould's comment about replaying the tape of life was mainly a nod to the large amount of randomness inherent in evolution's path, this study suggests a more nuanced reason that the playback would appear different.-"'There is intrinsically a huge amount of contingency in evolution," Plotkin said. "Whatever mutations happen to come first set the stage for what other later mutations are permissible. Indeed, history channels evolution down a certain path. Gould's famous tape of life would be very different if replayed, even more different than Gould might have imagined.'"- Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2015-06-evolution-unpredictable-irreversible-biologists.html#jCp
Evolution: ancient sulphur-eating bacteria
by David Turell , Wednesday, November 30, 2016, 15:00 (2914 days ago) @ David Turell
Newly-found Sulphur digesting bacteria fossils, 2.5 billions years old:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/30/life-before-oxygen/
"Recent geology research from the University of Cincinnati presents new evidence for bacteria found fossilized in two separate locations in the Northern Cape Province of South Africa.
“'These are the oldest reported fossil sulfur bacteria to date,” says Andrew Czaja, UC assistant professor of geology. “And this discovery is helping us reveal a diversity of life and ecosystems that existed just prior to the Great Oxidation Event, a time of major atmospheric evolution.”
"The 2.52 billion-year-old sulfur-oxidizing bacteria are described by Czaja as exceptionally large, spherical-shaped, smooth-walled microscopic structures much larger than most modern bacteria, but similar to some modern single-celled organisms that live in deepwater sulfur-rich ocean settings today, where even now there are almost no traces of oxygen.
***
"With an atmosphere of much less than one percent oxygen, scientists have presumed that there were things living in deep water in the mud that didn’t need sunlight or oxygen, but Czaja says experts didn’t have any direct evidence for them until now.
Czaja argues that finding rocks this old is rare, so researchers’ understanding of the Neoarchean Eon are based on samples from only a handful of geographic areas, such as this region of South Africa and another in Western Australia.
***
"Based on radiometric dating and geochemical isotope analysis, Czaja characterizes his fossils as having formed in this early Vaalbara supercontinent in an ancient deep seabed containing sulfate from continental rock. According to this dating, Czaja’s fossil bacteria were also thriving just before the era when other shallow-water bacteria began creating more and more oxygen as a byproduct of photosynthesis.
“We refer to this period as the Great Oxidation Event that took place 2.4 to 2.2 billion years ago,” says Czaja.
"Czaja’s fossils show the Neoarchean bacteria in plentiful numbers while living deep in the sediment. He contends that these early bacteria were busy ingesting volcanic hydrogen sulfide — the molecule known to give off a rotten egg smell — then emitting sulfate, a gas that has no smell. He says this is the same process that goes on today as modern bacteria recycle decaying organic matter into minerals and gases.
“'The waste product from one [bacteria] was food for the other,” adds Czaja.
“'While I can’t claim that these early bacteria are the same ones we have today, we surmise that they may have been doing the same thing as some of our current bacteria,” says Czaja. “These early bacteria likely consumed the molecules dissolved from sulfur-rich minerals that came from land rocks that had eroded and washed out to sea, or from the volcanic remains on the ocean’s floor.
"There is an ongoing debate about when sulfur-oxidizing bacteria arose and how that fits into the earth’s evolution of life, Czaja adds. “But these fossils tell us that sulfur-oxidizing bacteria were there 2.52 billion years ago, and they were doing something remarkable.'”
Comment: Evidence for life is aged at 3.6-3.8 billion years ago. Almost no free oxygen was present, so alternative metabolisms were employed. Carbon-based living organisms had many pathways, and they exist today. This makes the appearance of life even more miraculous.
Evolution: earliest plants older than thought
by David Turell , Wednesday, March 15, 2017, 00:49 (2810 days ago) @ David Turell
A new finding dropping the possibleage of the first plants back by 400 million years:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23331172-900-oldest-plantlike-fossils-discovered...
THE oldest plant-like fossils ever discovered suggest multicellular life began at least 1.6 billion years ago.
Fossils of red algae were found in rocks from Chitrakoot in central India embedded in mats of cyanobacteria, called stromatolites. “We have shown with great probability that plants have a history 400 million years older than previously known,” says Stefan Bengtson, at the Swedish Museum of Natural History in Stockholm.
His team found distinct cellular structures inside the fossils characteristic of red algae, which are eukaryotic, meaning they have complex cells, like plants and humans. They also found platelets inside the cells, which could be early chloroplasts, the organelles where photosynthesis takes place (Plos Biology, DOI: 10.1371/journal.pbio.2000735).
The early development of the multicellular eukaryotic organisms is disputed due to the scarcity of fossils older than 1 billion years. If the new findings and dating of the fossils are correct, the theory of early complex life on Earth will need to be tweaked. “The tree of life has to be recalibrated,” says Bengtson.
Comment: Why animals first as bacteria? I have no idea why plants could not have been first.
Evolution: an ability Darwin does not explain
by David Turell , Friday, July 21, 2017, 23:19 (2681 days ago) @ David Turell
A study has found out that humans are genetically preprogrammed to adapt to lower gravity:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28701719?dopt=Abstract
Abstract:
"We investigated the dynamics of immediate and initial gene expression response to different gravitational environments in human Jurkat T lymphocytic cells and compared expression profiles to identify potential gravity-regulated genes and adaptation processes. We used the Affymetrix GeneChip® Human Transcriptome Array 2.0 containing 44,699 protein coding genes and 22,829 non-protein coding genes and performed the experiments during a parabolic flight and a suborbital ballistic rocket mission to cross-validate gravity-regulated gene expression through independent research platforms and different sets of control experiments to exclude other factors than alteration of gravity. We found that gene expression in human T cells rapidly responded to altered gravity in the time frame of 20 s and 5 min. The initial response to microgravity involved mostly regulatory RNAs. We identified three gravity-regulated genes which could be cross-validated in both completely independent experiment missions: ATP6V1A/D, a vacuolar H + -ATPase (V-ATPase) responsible for acidification during bone resorption, IGHD3-3/IGHD3-10, diversity genes of the immunoglobulin heavy-chain locus participating in V(D)J recombination, and LINC00837, a long intergenic non-protein coding RNA. Due to the extensive and rapid alteration of gene expression associated with regulatory RNAs, we conclude that human cells are equipped with a robust and efficient adaptation potential when challenged with altered gravitational environments." (my bold)
Comment: Why should this ability be present in the human genome when there has never been any environmental pressure to create such an ability? It might be speculated that God did this so we could do space travel!
Evolution: an ability Darwin does not explain
by dhw, Saturday, July 22, 2017, 10:47 (2681 days ago) @ David Turell
Quote: “we conclude that human cells are equipped with a robust and efficient adaptation potential when challenged with altered gravitational environments." (David’s bold)
David’s comment: Why should this ability be present in the human genome when there has never been any environmental pressure to create such an ability? It might be speculated that God did this so we could do space travel!
Aw shucks, what are you bolding about? Before we humans went up into space, we magnanimously sent dogs, monkeys and lots of other fellow creatures up there to see what would happen to them. Many died for reasons other than “altered gravitational environments”, but if others hadn’t survived, humans would never have gone up in the first place. Here’s a website with the history. (Sorry, I can't seem to get the direct link.)
A Brief History of Animals in Space - NASA
history.nasa.gov/animals.html
QUOTE: “ A biological payload record was set on April 17, 1998, when over two thousand creatures joined the seven-member crew of the shuttle Columbia (STS-90) for a sixteen-day mission of intensive neurological testing (NEUROLAB).”
I conclude that the cells of lots and lots of organisms are equipped with a robust and efficient adaptation potential when challenged with altered gravitational environments. Would you like to put that in bold?
Evolution: an ability Darwin does not explain
by David Turell , Saturday, July 22, 2017, 15:06 (2680 days ago) @ dhw
Quote: “we conclude that human cells are equipped with a robust and efficient adaptation potential when challenged with altered gravitational environments." (David’s bold)
David’s comment: Why should this ability be present in the human genome when there has never been any environmental pressure to create such an ability? It might be speculated that God did this so we could do space travel!
dhw: Aw shucks, what are you bolding about? Before we humans went up into space, we magnanimously sent dogs, monkeys and lots of other fellow creatures up there to see what would happen to them. Many died for reasons other than “altered gravitational environments”, but if others hadn’t survived, humans would never have gone up in the first place. Here’s a website with the history. (Sorry, I can't seem to get the direct link.)
A Brief History of Animals in Space - NASA
history.nasa.gov/animals.htmlQUOTE: “ A biological payload record was set on April 17, 1998, when over two thousand creatures joined the seven-member crew of the shuttle Columbia (STS-90) for a sixteen-day mission of intensive neurological testing (NEUROLAB).”
I conclude that the cells of lots and lots of organisms are equipped with a robust and efficient adaptation potential when challenged with altered gravitational environments. Would you like to put that in bold?
Comment: agreed cells have it but again missing the point, or deliberately avoiding it. Why should cells contain space adaptability in advance of being in space (low gravity)?
Evolution: an ability Darwin does not explain
by dhw, Sunday, July 23, 2017, 09:27 (2680 days ago) @ David Turell
Quote: “we conclude that human cells are equipped with a robust and efficient adaptation potential when challenged with altered gravitational environments." (David’s bold)
David’s comment: Why should this ability be present in the human genome when there has never been any environmental pressure to create such an ability? It might be speculated that God did this so we could do space travel!
A Brief History of Animals in Space - NASA
history.nasa.gov/animals.html
QUOTE: “ A biological payload record was set on April 17, 1998, when over two thousand creatures joined the seven-member crew of the shuttle Columbia (STS-90) for a sixteen-day mission of intensive neurological testing (NEUROLAB).”
dhw: I conclude that the cells of lots and lots of organisms are equipped with a robust and efficient adaptation potential when challenged with altered gravitational environments. Would you like to put that in bold?
DAVID: …agreed cells have it but again missing the point, or deliberately avoiding it. Why should cells contain space adaptability in advance of being in space (low gravity)?
The bolded quote and your comment both stress that it is HUMAN cells that have this ability, as if it were unique to humans. It is not. But if you now wish to argue that your God specially prepared dogs and monkeys and other organisms for space travel, you are welcome to your theory.
Evolution: an ability Darwin does not explain
by David Turell , Sunday, July 23, 2017, 22:43 (2679 days ago) @ dhw
Quote: “we conclude that human cells are equipped with a robust and efficient adaptation potential when challenged with altered gravitational environments." (David’s bold)
David’s comment: Why should this ability be present in the human genome when there has never been any environmental pressure to create such an ability? It might be speculated that God did this so we could do space travel!
A Brief History of Animals in Space - NASA
history.nasa.gov/animals.html
QUOTE: “ A biological payload record was set on April 17, 1998, when over two thousand creatures joined the seven-member crew of the shuttle Columbia (STS-90) for a sixteen-day mission of intensive neurological testing (NEUROLAB).”dhw: I conclude that the cells of lots and lots of organisms are equipped with a robust and efficient adaptation potential when challenged with altered gravitational environments. Would you like to put that in bold?
DAVID: …agreed cells have it but again missing the point, or deliberately avoiding it. Why should cells contain space adaptability in advance of being in space (low gravity)?
dhw: The bolded quote and your comment both stress that it is HUMAN cells that have this ability, as if it were unique to humans. It is not. But if you now wish to argue that your God specially prepared dogs and monkeys and other organisms for space travel, you are welcome to your theory.
The real issue, lost in the shuffle, is why should the ability be present in advance of its need?
Evolution: an ability Darwin does not explain
by dhw, Monday, July 24, 2017, 13:20 (2679 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: The bolded quote and your comment both stress that it is HUMAN cells that have this ability, as if it were unique to humans. It is not. But if you now wish to argue that your God specially prepared dogs and monkeys and other organisms for space travel, you are welcome to your theory.
DAVID: The real issue, lost in the shuffle, is why should the ability be present in advance of its need?
Why do bacteria have the ability to adapt to virtually any change in their environment? You might as well ask why ANY organism has (or does not have) the ability to adapt to new conditions. What, then, is so special about the ability of humans, dogs, monkeys and hundreds of other organisms to survive weightlessness? And why did you and the authors only mention humans, as if their ability was extra special? And why must you bring Darwin into it? I suggest that this thread is not worth pursuing.
Evolution: an ability Darwin does not explain
by David Turell , Monday, July 24, 2017, 16:07 (2678 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: The bolded quote and your comment both stress that it is HUMAN cells that have this ability, as if it were unique to humans. It is not. But if you now wish to argue that your God specially prepared dogs and monkeys and other organisms for space travel, you are welcome to your theory.
DAVID: The real issue, lost in the shuffle, is why should the ability be present in advance of its need?
dhw: Why do bacteria have the ability to adapt to virtually any change in their environment? You might as well ask why ANY organism has (or does not have) the ability to adapt to new conditions. What, then, is so special about the ability of humans, dogs, monkeys and hundreds of other organisms to survive weightlessness? And why did you and the authors only mention humans, as if their ability was extra special? And why must you bring Darwin into it? I suggest that this thread is not worth pursuing.
You are quite correct about the animals you list on the surface of Earth. Didn't you note that weightlessness is not present as part of Earth's environment? And the question still exists as to why the genome is prepared for it in advance? Why not answer that?
Evolution: an ability Darwin does not explain
by dhw, Tuesday, July 25, 2017, 13:20 (2678 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: The bolded quote and your comment both stress that it is HUMAN cells that have this ability, as if it were unique to humans. It is not. But if you now wish to argue that your God specially prepared dogs and monkeys and other organisms for space travel, you are welcome to your theory.
DAVID: The real issue, lost in the shuffle, is why should the ability be present in advance of its need?
dhw: Why do bacteria have the ability to adapt to virtually any change in their environment? You might as well ask why ANY organism has (or does not have) the ability to adapt to new conditions. What, then, is so special about the ability of humans, dogs, monkeys and hundreds of other organisms to survive weightlessness? And why did you and the authors only mention humans, as if their ability was extra special? And why must you bring Darwin into it? I suggest that this thread is not worth pursuing.
DAVID: You are quite correct about the animals you list on the surface of Earth. Didn't you note that weightlessness is not present as part of Earth's environment? And the question still exists as to why the genome is prepared for it in advance? Why not answer that?
This is a silly thread. By all means embrace your belief that your God specially prepared some organisms (and not others) for space travel. I’ll stick to the argument that some organisms are more adaptable than others to new conditions.
Evolution: dinosaurs not as dominant as thought
by David Turell , Thursday, August 10, 2017, 19:07 (2661 days ago) @ dhw
Discoveries is China show that mammals were much more diversified than thought 160 million years ago, well before dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/palaeontology/earliest-gliding-mammals-force-rethink-of-dino...
"The earliest examples of gliding mammals yet discovered, dated to the Jurassic period about 160 million years ago, suggest dinosaurs did not dominate the prehistoric Earth as much as has been believed.
"As the first winged mammals, the identified fossils of two gliders demonstrate the wide ecological diversity attained by early mammals, says Zhe-Xi Luo, professor of organismal biology and anatomy at the University of Chicago, who is co-author of two new papers analysing the animals, published in Nature. This degree of early evolutionary diversity, he suggests, “means dinosaurs likely did not dominate the Mesozoic landscape as much as previously thought”.
"Bearing some similarities in appearance to modern gliding mammals such as flying squirrels and possums, the “exquisitely fossilised” remains of the two animals unearthed from China’s renowned Tiaojishan Formation show wing-like skin membranes between long fore and hind limbs, and skeletal features in their shoulder joints and forelimbs that would make them capable gliders. Their long fingers (or toes) are suited to gripping branches, indicating trees were their natural habitat, while their teeth indicate they ate a mainly herbivorous diet.
***
"So while in absolute geological terms all three fossils are about the same age, Luo says, the two new gliders evolved at an earlier point in mammalian evolution, prior to the diversification of modern mammals into monotremes, marsupials and placentals. “The evolutionary antiquity is much older for the newly found Maiopatagium and Vilevolodon than for Volaticotherium. That’s why we say they are the first winged mammals.”
***
"Together with many other fossils described by Luo and colleagues over the past decade or so, the new fossils provide strong evidence that mammals adapted well and were more ubiquitous in an age once presumed to have been the domain of dinosaurs.
“'The traditional and historical view was that when dinosaurs dominated the world, mammals were small, generalised and without much functional or ecological diversity,” Luo says. “In simple terms, mammals were not able to diversify when dinosaurs dominated the terrestrial ecosystem. The popular version of this view was that mammals always lived in the shadow of dinosaurs. But that was then.
"A stream of new discoveries in the past 15 years has shown that mammals which co-existed with dinosaurs during the Mesozoic evolved into semi-aquatic forms, such as Castorocauda, subterranean forms, such as Docofossor, and many arboreal forms, such as Agilodocodon and Arboroharamiya.
“'Mesozoic mammals essentially evolved all the distinctive ecomorphotypes like those of modern mammals of small-to-mid-sized bodies,” Luo says."
Comment: This degree of diversification means mammals could develop worldwide much more quickly after the Chicxulub event.
Evolution: hybridization is relatively common
by David Turell , Saturday, August 26, 2017, 20:21 (2645 days ago) @ David Turell
Very closely related species can produce hybrids. The often-used criterion of a species that can reproduce only with its kind is not true. One can wonder why did they bother to split in the first place, but we really don't know how species occur. This article takes the position that hybrids are beneficial:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/interspecies-hybrids-play-a-vital-role-in-evolution-2017...
" grizzlies and polar bears, as it turns out, have been mating since the species diverged hundreds of thousands of years ago. Polar bear genomes have retained mitochondrial DNA from ancient grizzly bears, and grizzlies have inherited genes from hybridizing with polar bears.
***
" as genomic studies provide new insights into how species evolve, biologists are now seeing that, surprisingly often, hybrids play a vital role in fortifying species and helping them take on useful genes from close relatives.
"In short, maladaptive pairings don’t tell the full story of interbreeding. The genetic transfer that takes place between organisms while their lineages are diverging has a hand in the emergence of adaptive traits and in the creation of new species altogether. According to Arnold, not only is it common for newly emerging species to reacquire genes through hybrid populations, “but it’s probably the most common way evolution proceeds, whether you’re talking about viruses, plants, bacteria or animals.”
***
"a team of researchers from institutions spanning seven countries examined the genomes of the five members of the Panthera genus, often called the “big cats”: lions, leopards, tigers, jaguars and snow leopards. The scientists sequenced the genomes of the jaguar and leopard for the first time and compared them with the already existing genomes for the other three species, finding more than 13,000 genes that were shared across all five. This information helped them construct a phylogenetic tree (in essence, a family tree for species) to describe how the different animals diverged from a common ancestor approximately 4.6 million years ago.
***
"Biologists have known since the 1930s that hybridization occurs frequently in plants (it’s documented in about 25 percent of flowering plant species in the U.K. alone) and plays an important role in their evolution. In fact, it was a pair of botanists who, in 1938, coined the phrase “introgressive hybridization,” or introgression, to describe the pattern of hybridization and gene flow they saw in their studies. Imagine members of two species — let’s call them A and B — that cross to produce 50-50 hybrid offspring with equal shares of genes from each parent. Then picture those hybrids crossing back to breed with members of species A, and assume that their offspring do the same. Many generations later, nature is left with organisms from species A whose genomes have retained a few genes from species B. Studies have demonstrated that this process could yield entirely new plant species as well.
***
"Since 2009, studies have revealed that approximately 50,000 to 60,000 years ago, some modern humans spreading out of Africa interbred with Neanderthals; they later did so with another ancestral human group, the Denisovans, as well. The children in both cases went on to mate with other modern humans, passing the genes they acquired down to us. At present, researchers estimate that some populations have inherited 1 to 2 percent of their DNA from Neanderthals, and up to 6 percent of it from Denisovans — fractions that amount to hundreds of genes.
***
"Other types of organisms, from fish and birds to wolves and sheep, experience their share of introgression, too. “The boundaries between species are now known to be less rigid than previously thought,” said Peter Grant, an evolutionary biologist at Princeton University who, along with his fellow Princeton biologist (and wife) Rosemary Grant, has been studying the evolution of Galápagos finches for decades. “Phylogenetic reconstructions depict treelike patterns as if there is a clear barrier between species that arises instantaneously and is never breached. This may be misleading.” (my bold)
***
"Recent genomic evidence, however, points to the likelihood that red and eastern wolves are in fact hybrids of gray wolves and coyotes. Given the murky area hybrids occupy when it comes to conservation policy, this finding called into question their protected status and complicated biologists’ understanding of their ecological role in the evolutionary history of gray wolves."
Comment: Hybridization is an area of research that must be pursued to gain more understanding of its role. It points out how little we understand about initial speciation and its causes. Why should there be five 'big cats', all closely related? Why does evolution do that? I'm musing without the possibility of God's role in creating new species. One obvious causality.
Evolution:mammal perineum appears pre-planned
by David Turell , Sunday, August 27, 2017, 00:30 (2645 days ago) @ David Turell
Embryonal research dates the four layers of the mammalian perineum back to early tetrapods 360 million years ago:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170823090922.htm
Mammalian perineal structure derived from septation of the cloaca is an important evolutionary innovation that allows myriad anatomical configurations, diverse reproductive strategies, and precise excretory control available only to mammals. The researchers were surprised to discover that, despite the perineum's structural complexity, the muscles of the mammalian perineum show a reemergence of a simple pattern of body wall layering that dates back more than 360 million years ago -- during the origin of tetrapods, the first vertebrates to move out of the water onto land.
***
with the transition from water to land, the body wall of most tetrapods expanded to four muscles layers in order to stabilize their trunks against gravity and facilitate the more complex movements of the limbs during terrestrial locomotion. Amniotes, vertebrates who can reproduce on land and away from water, have four muscle layers in the thorax and the abdomen, but still retain the original two muscle layers in the pelvis and perineum. Mammals, like other amniotes, have four muscle layers in the thoracic and abdominal body wall. Unlike other amniotes, mammals extended the four muscle layers to the perineum. This allows mammals to control their newly derived structures associated with the external genitalia and the anus.
***
Among mammals, Placentalia, the group that includes humans, is the only group of vertebrates to evolve the specialized suite of perineal characteristics that includes the erectile tissues of the penis and the clitoris, the urethra, the distal rectum, the anus, as well as the voluntary muscles that control these structures....Separation of the cloaca into distinct and more complex perineal structures required mammals to develop correspondingly more complex and precise mechanisms of muscular control for these structures.
Researchers often use embryological development to find important clues about how evolutionary processes may have occurred. Modern mammals develop a cloaca embryologically, which subsequently divides into a urogenital half- that continues to form the urethra and the erectile tissues of the penis and clitoris, and an anorectal half- that develops into the distal rectum and the anal canal. The authors discovered evidence for restructuring of the body wall muscle layers during fetal development that support cloacal separation into distinct structures and is retained into adulthood.
This study, conducted by a team at Midwestern University, is the first time that the four serially homologous trunk body wall layers in the mammalian perineum are defined. These muscle layers support a unique mammalian perineal structure derived from separation of the cloaca, an important evolutionary innovation that allows diverse reproductive strategies and precise excretory control available only to mammals. (my bold)
Comment: This is one of the best examples of evolutionary pre-planning I've seen. Note my bold. The preliminary changes go back 360 million years, long before the appearance of mammals and their special needs for reproduction. God at work!
Evolution: hybridization is relatively common
by dhw, Sunday, August 27, 2017, 10:56 (2645 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: "Other types of organisms, from fish and birds to wolves and sheep, experience their share of introgression, too. “The boundaries between species are now known to be less rigid than previously thought,” said Peter Grant, an evolutionary biologist at Princeton University who, along with his fellow Princeton biologist (and wife) Rosemary Grant, has been studying the evolution of Galápagos finches for decades. “Phylogenetic reconstructions depict treelike patterns as if there is a clear barrier between species that arises instantaneously and is never breached. This may be misleading.” (David's bold)
The problem of what is meant by “species” is not exactly new. “Nor shall I here discuss the various definitions which have been given of the term of the term species. No one definition has as yet satisfied all naturalists. […] The term ‘variety’ is almost equally difficult to define.” (Charles Darwin, Origin of Species, beginning of Chapter 2).
DAVID’s comment: Hybridization is an area of research that must be pursued to gain more understanding of its role. It points out how little we understand about initial speciation and its causes. Why should there be five 'big cats', all closely related? Why does evolution do that? I'm musing without the possibility of God's role in creating new species. One obvious causality.
If you want to muse about a possible God’s possible role, perhaps you might ask why he should have preprogrammed or dabbled five big cats as a “necessary side purpose”, if his sole purpose was to produce the human brain.
Evolution: hybridization is relatively common
by David Turell , Sunday, August 27, 2017, 20:01 (2644 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: "Other types of organisms, from fish and birds to wolves and sheep, experience their share of introgression, too. “The boundaries between species are now known to be less rigid than previously thought,” said Peter Grant, an evolutionary biologist at Princeton University who, along with his fellow Princeton biologist (and wife) Rosemary Grant, has been studying the evolution of Galápagos finches for decades. “Phylogenetic reconstructions depict treelike patterns as if there is a clear barrier between species that arises instantaneously and is never breached. This may be misleading.” (David's bold)
dhw: The problem of what is meant by “species” is not exactly new. “Nor shall I here discuss the various definitions which have been given of the term of the term species. No one definition has as yet satisfied all naturalists. […] The term ‘variety’ is almost equally difficult to define.” (Charles Darwin, Origin of Species, beginning of Chapter 2).
DAVID’s comment: Hybridization is an area of research that must be pursued to gain more understanding of its role. It points out how little we understand about initial speciation and its causes. Why should there be five 'big cats', all closely related? Why does evolution do that? I'm musing without the possibility of God's role in creating new species. One obvious causality.
dhw: If you want to muse about a possible God’s possible role, perhaps you might ask why he should have preprogrammed or dabbled five big cats as a “necessary side purpose”, if his sole purpose was to produce the human brain.
Bush of life with eco-niches, of course. As for Darwin this Times essay is very damning about Darwin's scientific and intuative abilities:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/darwin-s-greatness-is-founded-on-a-myth-r0563g83q?sh...
I won't bother to quote from the essay. You can read it for yourself if you can tolerate the point of view expressed.
Evolution: hybridization is relatively common
by dhw, Monday, August 28, 2017, 13:19 (2644 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: As for Darwin this Times essay is very damning about Darwin's scientific and intuative abilities:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/darwin-s-greatness-is-founded-on-a-myth-r0563g83q?sh...
DAVID: I won't bother to quote from the essay. You can read it for yourself if you can tolerate the point of view expressed.
You had already quoted another article by A.N. Wilson, who is plugging his biography of Darwin (to be published in September). Here are two quotes which exemplify the tone of his polemic:
QUOTE: Darwin effectively told the Victorians: “Rather than trouble yourself by the gross selfishness of living with vast accumulated unearned wealth, carriage drives, servants and villas, tell yourself that the differences between rich and poor are just the way nature organised things.”
Did he really? So if we observe that animals fight and kill each other for food, mates or territory, are we effectively saying it’s OK for humans to fight and kill each other for food, mates or territory? What a wonderful new approach to biography. Let’s not quote the subject. Let’s make up our own quotes instead.
QUOTE: Webb, in common with HG Wells, George Bernard Shaw and Winston Churchill, shared the view that middle-class women would be “shirking in their duty” if they did not have families to outnumber those of the feckless poor. Less than 30 years would elapse between boring little Sidney Webb expressing the fear that his country would fall to the Irish and the Jews, and another European country, Germany, enacting the Reich Citizenship Law, the Marital Health Law and the Nuremberg Laws for racial segregation.
All were based on bogus Victorian science, much of which had started life in the gentle setting of Darwin’s study at Down House, near Bromley in Kent.
The principle is on the same intellectual level as blaming Jesus Christ for the Crusades and the Inquisition, Muhammed for ISIS terrorism, and God for all the evil that men do. No, I am not comparing Darwin to these religious figures. He was simply a scientist trying to unravel the mystery of how life on earth developed, and he put together a theory much of which is still valid 150 years after he wrote it. If the theory of common descent is true, and if it’s true that in most cases those organisms best suited for survival will survive, then why attack the person who promulgated the truth just because other people used it for their own purposes? As for “bogus Victorian science” and the other spiteful ad hominems, no doubt there will be responses from people who know a lot more than I do, and last time I promised to report on any reviews. They obviously won’t be available till later next month.
Evolution: hybridization is relatively common
by David Turell , Monday, August 28, 2017, 19:21 (2643 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: The principle is on the same intellectual level as blaming Jesus Christ for the Crusades and the Inquisition, Muhammed for ISIS terrorism, and God for all the evil that men do. No, I am not comparing Darwin to these religious figures. He was simply a scientist trying to unravel the mystery of how life on earth developed, and he put together a theory much of which is still valid 150 years after he wrote it. If the theory of common descent is true, and if it’s true that in most cases those organisms best suited for survival will survive, then why attack the person who promulgated the truth just because other people used it for their own purposes? As for “bogus Victorian science” and the other spiteful ad hominems, no doubt there will be responses from people who know a lot more than I do, and last time I promised to report on any reviews. They obviously won’t be available till later next month.
Your partial sentence: He was simply a scientist trying to unravel the mystery of how life on earth developed, and he put together a theory much of which is still valid 150 years after he wrote it. If the theory of common descent is true, and if it’s true that in most cases those organisms best suited for survival will survive, (my bold) is where I have trouble with Darwin. My position, as you know, is evolution is driven to advance complexity, with or without survivability.
Evolution: poisonous frog self-protection
by David Turell , Thursday, September 21, 2017, 20:51 (2619 days ago) @ David Turell
Tiny Ecuadorian frogs produce very potent neurotoxins. Obviously they must be protected from themselves:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170921141238.htm
" Thimble-sized, dappled in cheerful colors and squishy, poison frogs in fact harbor some of the most potent neurotoxins we know. With a new paper published in the journal Science, scientists are a step closer to resolving a related head-scratcher -- how do these frogs keep from poisoning themselves?
***
"The researchers discovered that a small genetic mutation in the frogs -- a change in just three of the 2,500 amino acids that make up the receptor -- prevents the toxin from acting on the frogs' own receptors, making them resistant to its lethal effects. Not only that, but precisely the same change appeared independently three times in the evolution of these frogs.
"'Being toxic can be good for your survival -- it gives you an edge over predators," said Rebecca Tarvin, a postdoctoral researcher at UT Austin and a co-first author on the paper. "So why aren't more animals toxic? Our work is showing that a big constraint is whether organisms can evolve resistance to their own toxins. We found evolution has hit upon this same exact change in three different groups of frogs, and that, to me, is quite beautiful."
***
"A receptor is a type of protein on the outside of cells that transmits signals between the outside and the inside. Receptors are like locks that stay shut until they encounter the correct key. When a molecule with just the right shape comes along, the receptor gets activated and sends a signal.
"The receptor that Tarvin and her colleagues studied sends signals in processes like learning and memory, but usually only when a compound that is the healthy "key" comes into contact with it. Unfortunately for the frogs' predators, toxic epibatidine also works, like a powerful skeleton key, on the receptor, hijacking cells and triggering a dangerous burst of activity.
"The researchers found that poison frogs that use epibatidine have developed a small genetic mutation that prevents the toxin from binding to their receptors. In a sense, they've blocked the skeleton key. They also have managed, through evolution, to retain a way for the real key to continue to work, thanks to a second genetic mutation. In the frogs, the lock became more selective.
***
"This represents the second time that Cannatella, Zakon, Tarvin and Santos have played a role in discovering mechanisms that prevent frogs from poisoning themselves. In January 2016, the team identified a set of genetic mutations that they suggested might protect another subgroup of poison frogs from a different neurotoxin, batrachotoxin."
Comment: this is another example of two things that have to appear at the same time. The poison and the protective system have to appear together, because if the frog secretes the poison without protection, there will be no future frogs. This must be designed Just as insect eating plants must have a protection against their digestive enzymes simultaneously developed. Not by chance.
Evolution: poisonous frog self-protection
by David Turell , Monday, September 25, 2017, 14:23 (2615 days ago) @ David Turell
More on this evolutionary process:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/why-poisonous-frogs-don-t-croak
"As every school kid will tell you, South America boasts some fearsomely poisonous little frogs.
"These amphibians, such as the little devil poison frog (Dendrobates sylvaticus), have sometimes been used by indigenous hunter-gather communities as an aid to food capture, with arrows being coated in the highly toxic exudations.
"A pertinent question that arises when considering these small, brightly coloured frogs – as smarter school kids quickly realise – is why they don’t themselves fall victim to their own defence mechanism.
"Now, research by Rebecca Tarvin from the University of Texas, US, and published in the journal Science, has uncovered the genetic basis of this immunity.
"The frog species all produce a powerful neurotoxin called epibatidine, which acts by binding to proteins called acetylcholine receptors located on the cell membranes of whichever animal is attempting to eat them. Acetylcholine is a key neurotransmitter.
"Clearly, the frogs themselves do not fall prey to their own poison, but why the self-produced epibatidine did not cripple their own neurotransmission pathways was unclear.
To find out, the team expressed frog acetylcholine receptors in a human cell line, and then analysed the DNA.
"The results told a story of adaptive evolution. The researchers found that a single changed amino acid altered the receptor function sufficiently to nullify the normally lethal effects of epibatidine. However, in doing so it also significantly reduced the frog’s sensitivity to acetylcholine, dampening its nervous system.
"This must have placed a considerable burden on the little amphibians, the researchers suggest, trading off poisonous protection from predators against reduced functionality.
"The situation was later rectified, however, by the emergence of three new amino acids that work to reboot the animals’ acetylcholine sensitivity (and thus restore normal neurotransmission) while maintaining the immunity to epibatidine.
"Tarvin and her colleagues conclude that protein evolution can sometimes be part of a complex balance of survival challenges, and that some adaptations – such as the little devil’s poison – initially come at substantial cost."
Comment: This shows the stepwise development of some evolutionary adaptations.
Evolution: poisonous frog self-protection
by dhw, Tuesday, September 26, 2017, 12:06 (2615 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: "Tarvin and her colleagues conclude that protein evolution can sometimes be part of a complex balance of survival challenges, and that some adaptations – such as the little devil’s poison – initially come at substantial cost."
Comment: This shows the stepwise development of some evolutionary adaptations.
Evolution is clearly a mixture of gradualism and saltation. Now that you have agreed organisms have an autonomous ability to change themselves, I'd be very interested to know if you regard this particular example as the workings of autonomous intelligence, or do you think it was preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago?
Evolution: poisonous frog self-protection
by David Turell , Tuesday, September 26, 2017, 17:11 (2614 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: "Tarvin and her colleagues conclude that protein evolution can sometimes be part of a complex balance of survival challenges, and that some adaptations – such as the little devil’s poison – initially come at substantial cost."
Comment: This shows the stepwise development of some evolutionary adaptations.
dhw: Evolution is clearly a mixture of gradualism and saltation. Now that you have agreed organisms have an autonomous ability to change themselves, I'd be very interested to know if you regard this particular example as the workings of autonomous intelligence, or do you think it was preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago?
I've only agreed that organisms can adapt epigenetically as the same species.
Evolution: poisonous frog self-protection
by dhw, Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 10:51 (2614 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: "Tarvin and her colleagues conclude that protein evolution can sometimes be part of a complex balance of survival challenges, and that some adaptations – such as the little devil’s poison – initially come at substantial cost."
DAVID's comment: This shows the stepwise development of some evolutionary adaptations.
dhw: Evolution is clearly a mixture of gradualism and saltation. Now that you have agreed organisms have an autonomous ability to change themselves, I'd be very interested to know if you regard this particular example as the workings of autonomous intelligence, or do you think it was preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago?
DAVID: I've only agreed that organisms can adapt epigenetically as the same species.
You have agreed that organisms have an autonomous mechanism for minor adaptations. I am now probing how far you think this mechanism is capable of going. Do you think the frog was capable of developing its own poison and resistance to its own poison, or do you think your God had to preprogramme it all 3.8 billion years ago?
Evolution: poisonous frog self-protection
by David Turell , Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 15:13 (2613 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: "Tarvin and her colleagues conclude that protein evolution can sometimes be part of a complex balance of survival challenges, and that some adaptations – such as the little devil’s poison – initially come at substantial cost."
DAVID's comment: This shows the stepwise development of some evolutionary adaptations.
dhw: Evolution is clearly a mixture of gradualism and saltation. Now that you have agreed organisms have an autonomous ability to change themselves, I'd be very interested to know if you regard this particular example as the workings of autonomous intelligence, or do you think it was preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago?
DAVID: I've only agreed that organisms can adapt epigenetically as the same species.
dhw: You have agreed that organisms have an autonomous mechanism for minor adaptations. I am now probing how far you think this mechanism is capable of going. Do you think the frog was capable of developing its own poison and resistance to its own poison, or do you think your God had to preprogramme it all 3.8 billion years ago?
Becoming poisonous and being self-protected must have developed simultaneously. Looks designed to me. The alteration of the nervous system afterward might well be an epigenetic adaptation.
Evolution: poisonous frog self-protection
by dhw, Thursday, September 28, 2017, 12:58 (2613 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: You have agreed that organisms have an autonomous mechanism for minor adaptations. I am now probing how far you think this mechanism is capable of going. Do you think the frog was capable of developing its own poison and resistance to its own poison, or do you think your God had to preprogramme it all 3.8 billion years ago?
DAVID: Becoming poisonous and being self-protected must have developed simultaneously. Looks designed to me. The alteration of the nervous system afterward might well be an epigenetic adaptation.
I would suggest that all adaptations and innovations have to be designed if they are to function. The question is what does the designing. I understand how very difficult it is for you to draw borderlines, but the question remains whether you think changes of whatever kind have been preprogrammed/dabbled by your God or designed by the cell communities themselves. You have acknowledged autonomous design by cell communities, though you prefer to call it minor or epigenetic adaptation. And in a new post you have given us another fascinating instance of chemical defences, this time by moths, and again you emphasize design:
DAVID’s comment: Unless these moths had these chemicals from the beginning of their species, they would not be here now. I think they were designed to be protected this way.
So did your God step in specially to design its chemicals, or alternatively did he provide the first living cells with a programme not only for the moth and the frog but also for their chemicals – along with programmes for every other undabbled innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder? And were all these really necessary to keep life going so that he could produce the brain of Homo sapiens? Or is it just possible that the now acknowledged capability for autonomous design was in operation for both the frog and the moth?
Evolution: poisonous frog self-protection
by David Turell , Thursday, September 28, 2017, 14:28 (2612 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: You have agreed that organisms have an autonomous mechanism for minor adaptations. I am now probing how far you think this mechanism is capable of going. Do you think the frog was capable of developing its own poison and resistance to its own poison, or do you think your God had to preprogramme it all 3.8 billion years ago?
DAVID: Becoming poisonous and being self-protected must have developed simultaneously. Looks designed to me. The alteration of the nervous system afterward might well be an epigenetic adaptation.
I would suggest that all adaptations and innovations have to be designed if they are to function. The question is what does the designing. I understand how very difficult it is for you to draw borderlines, but the question remains whether you think changes of whatever kind have been preprogrammed/dabbled by your God or designed by the cell communities themselves. You have acknowledged autonomous design by cell communities, though you prefer to call it minor or epigenetic adaptation. And in a new post you have given us another fascinating instance of chemical defences, this time by moths, and again you emphasize design:
DAVID’s comment: Unless these moths had these chemicals from the beginning of their species, they would not be here now. I think they were designed to be protected this way.
dhw:So did your God step in specially to design its chemicals, or alternatively did he provide the first living cells with a programme not only for the moth and the frog but also for their chemicals – along with programmes for every other undabbled innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder? And were all these really necessary to keep life going so that he could produce the brain of Homo sapiens? Or is it just possible that the now acknowledged capability for autonomous design was in operation for both the frog and the moth?
You keep pushing your idea that God gave organisms the ability to speciate or to create irreducibly complex mechanisms. I have specifically, in both comments above, specified the need for design. And as always it is programmed from the beginning or it is a dabble. The 'capability for autonomous design' is epigenetic adaptation at the level we have discovered.
Evolution: common descent not shown by genetics
by David Turell , Sunday, January 28, 2018, 20:02 (2490 days ago) @ David Turell
Studies of DNA at various levels of evolution do not fit common descent:
http://nautil.us/issue/9/time/evolution-youre-drunk
"Amoebas are puny, stupid blobs, so scientists were surprised to learn that they contain 200 times more DNA than Einstein did. Because amoebas are made of just one cell, researchers assumed they would be simpler than humans genetically. Plus, amoebas date back farther in time than humans, and simplicity is considered an attribute of primitive beings. It just didn’t make sense.
"The idea of directionality in nature, a gradient from simple to complex, began with the Greeks, who called nature physis, meaning growth. That idea subtly extended from changes over an organism’s lifetime, to changes over evolutionary time after Charles Darwin argued that all animals descend from a single common ancestor. When his contemporaries drew evolutionary trees of life, they assumed increasing complexity. Worms originated early in animal evolution. Creatures with more complex structures originated later. Biologists tweaked evolutionary trees over the following century, but generally, simple organisms continued to precede the complex.
***
"Before the advent of rapid, accurate, and inexpensive DNA sequencing technology in the early 2000s, biologists guessed that genes would provide more evidence for increasing complexity in evolution. Simple, early organisms would have fewer genes than complex ones, they predicted, just as a blueprint of Dorothy’s cottage in Kansas would be less complicated than one for the Emerald City. Instead, their assumptions of increasing complexity began to fall apart. First to go was an easy definition of how complexity manifested itself. After all, amoebas had huge genomes. Now, DNA analyses are rearranging evolutionary trees, suggesting that the arrow scientists envisioned between simplicity and complexity actually spins like a weather vane caught in a tornado.
***
"To their surprise, anemones had more genes than insects, including some genes that humans possess but flies do not. Even more perplexing: Sea anemones evolved before flies and humans, some 560 million years ago. That meant animals might have been genetically complex from the start. “When I was younger, and we knew less, we thought that organisms gained genes over millions of years and that the earliest animals were genetically very simple,” says Bill Pearson, a computational biologist at the University of Virginia who developed some of the first techniques to compare protein sequences among organisms. “We think that less now,” he adds.
***
"Late last year, the animal evolutionary tree quaked at its root. A team led by Joseph Ryan, an evolutionary biologist who splits his time between the National Genome Research Institute in Bethesda, Md. and the Sars International Center for Marine Molecular Biology in Bergen, Norway, analyzed the genome from a comb jelly, Mnemiopsis leidyi, a complex marine predator with muscles, nerves, a rudimentary brain, and bioluminescence, and found that the animals may have originated before simple sponges, which lack all of those features.
***
"Both hypotheses run counter to scenarios in which organisms evolve to be increasingly complex. In one, a complex nervous system and muscles were lost in the sponges. In the other, the sponges had the genetic capability for complex features but stayed simple, while a more primitive group, the comb jellies, acquired brains and muscles that help them chase down prey. Furthermore, the idea that complex parts like a brain and nervous system—including nerve cells, synapses, and neurotransmitter molecules—could evolve separately multiple times perplexes evolutionary biologists because parts are gained one at a time. The chance of the same progression happening twice in separate lineages seems unlikely—or so biologists thought. “Traditional views are based on our dependence on our nervous system,” says Ryan. “We think the nervous system is the greatest thing in the world so how could anything lose it,” he says. “Or, it’s the greatest thing in the world, so how could it happen twice.”
***
"Perhaps the fact that people are stunned whenever organisms become simpler says more about how the human mind organizes the world than about evolutionary processes. People are more comfortable envisioning increasing complexity through time instead of reversals or stasis.
***
"Casey Dunn, an evolutionary biologist at Brown University in Providence, R.I. who took part in the still-contentious comb jelly project, now doubts all notions of increasing complexity. Instead, he says the environment selects whatever form handles the challenges at hand, be it simple, complex, or plain ugly. Mother Nature, with her 4 billion years of experience, does not work like Steve Jobs, continuously designing sleeker versions. When asked whether de-evolution, a reversal from the complex to the simple, happens frequently, Dunn replies, sure. “But,” he adds, “I wouldn’t call that de-evolution, I’d call it evolution.'”
Comment: This is a Darwinist showing her prejudice. DNA does not support common descent, but she can't think of it as God guiding. I've had to skip many of her examples of evolution running backward.
Evolution: common descent not shown by genetics
by dhw, Monday, January 29, 2018, 13:53 (2489 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Studies of DNA at various levels of evolution do not fit common descent:
http://nautil.us/issue/9/time/evolution-youre-drunk
Thank you for this very important article. It certainly knocks on the head your hypothesis that evolution advances through a drive to complexity, but it also requires a wriggle from me to adjust my own hypothesis. First, though, a correction:
QUOTE: "The idea of directionality in nature, a gradient from simple to complex, began with the Greeks, who called nature physis, meaning growth. That idea subtly extended from changes over an organism’s lifetime, to changes over evolutionary time after Charles Darwin argued that all animals descend from a single common ancestor."
Darwin: “There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one…” The alternative “few forms” is important in the context of this article.
QUOTE: "Casey Dunn, an evolutionary biologist at Brown University in Providence, R.I. who took part in the still-contentious comb jelly project, now doubts all notions of increasing complexity. Instead, he says the environment selects whatever form handles the challenges at hand, be it simple, complex, or plain ugly. Mother Nature, with her 4 billion years of experience, does not work like Steve Jobs, continuously designing sleeker versions. When asked whether de-evolution, a reversal from the complex to the simple, happens frequently, Dunn replies, sure. “But,” he adds, “I wouldn’t call that de-evolution, I’d call it evolution.'”
DAVID's comment: This is a Darwinist showing her prejudice. DNA does not support common descent, but she can't think of it as God guiding. I've had to skip many of her examples of evolution running backward.
Casey is a “he” apparently. Please forget your prejudice against Darwin and in favour of divine guidance for every evolutionary development, and focus on the argument. A few original forms, as opposed to one, solve the problem at a stroke: some were simple and some were complex, and so there are different lines of descent. But Dunn’s link with the environment is crucial. Reversal is nothing new. Darwin regards vestigial organs as evidence for common descent, and this might give us a clue as to how the whole process works. All organisms MUST be able to cope with their environment, and there is no reason why this should necessitate increasing complexity (think of bacteria). As each organism finds its niche, it may add or delete accordingly. My own hypothesis (evolution is driven by the quest for survival and/or improvement) needs to be tweaked, because the same quest may lead not to innovation but to regression, which would result from a response to particular environmental conditions. Complexity in itself is therefore irrelevant: the decisive factor is change that will improve the organism’s chances of survival and/or way of life. Once cells joined themselves into communities, they had an almost infinite potential of forms – some simple, some complex. Hence the ever changing bush, with organisms coming and going, complexifying or simplifying, as they coped or failed to cope with or exploited the ever changing environment. Why must God guide it all? If he exists, he would have invented the mechanism that gave rise to this vast potential and hence to the ever changing bush.
Evolution: common descent not shown by genetics
by David Turell , Monday, January 29, 2018, 18:22 (2489 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Studies of DNA at various levels of evolution do not fit common descent:
http://nautil.us/issue/9/time/evolution-youre-drunkdhw: Thank you for this very important article. It certainly knocks on the head your hypothesis that evolution advances through a drive to complexity, but it also requires a wriggle from me to adjust my own hypothesis. First, though, a correction:
QUOTE: "The idea of directionality in nature, a gradient from simple to complex, began with the Greeks, who called nature physis, meaning growth. That idea subtly extended from changes over an organism’s lifetime, to changes over evolutionary time after Charles Darwin argued that all animals descend from a single common ancestor."
Darwin: “There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one…” The alternative “few forms” is important in the context of this article.
You can't deny that evolution proceeded from simple to very complex even though we see back and forth. Darwin added that quote above only after his first addition created so much furor.
QUOTE: "Casey Dunn, an evolutionary biologist at Brown University in Providence, R.I. who took part in the still-contentious comb jelly project, now doubts all notions of increasing complexity. Instead, he says the environment selects whatever form handles the challenges at hand, be it simple, complex, or plain ugly. Mother Nature, with her 4 billion years of experience, does not work like Steve Jobs, continuously designing sleeker versions. When asked whether de-evolution, a reversal from the complex to the simple, happens frequently, Dunn replies, sure. “But,” he adds, “I wouldn’t call that de-evolution, I’d call it evolution.'”DAVID's comment: This is a Darwinist showing her prejudice. DNA does not support common descent, but she can't think of it as God guiding. I've had to skip many of her examples of evolution running backward.
Casey is a “he” apparently.
The author of the article is AMY. My comment is about the article and HER obvious prejudice.
dhw: Please forget your prejudice against Darwin and in favour of divine guidance for every evolutionary development, and focus on the argument. A few original forms, as opposed to one, solve the problem at a stroke: some were simple and some were complex, and so there are different lines of descent. But Dunn’s link with the environment is crucial. Reversal is nothing new. Darwin regards vestigial organs as evidence for common descent, and this might give us a clue as to how the whole process works.
Darwin's vestigial organs are not vestigial: for example the appendix has definite reasons for existing. Current research shows nothing considered vestigial by early human thought is vestigial. I keep reminding you, Darwin didn't know what he didn't know.
dhw: All organisms MUST be able to cope with their environment, and there is no reason why this should necessitate increasing complexity (think of bacteria). As each organism finds its niche, it may add or delete accordingly. My own hypothesis (evolution is driven by the quest for survival and/or improvement) needs to be tweaked, because the same quest may lead not to innovation but to regression, which would result from a response to particular environmental conditions.
Thank you. Survival of the fittest tells us nothing.
dhw: Complexity in itself is therefore irrelevant: the decisive factor is change that will improve the organism’s chances of survival and/or way of life. Once cells joined themselves into communities, they had an almost infinite potential of forms – some simple, some complex. Hence the ever changing bush, with organisms coming and going, complexifying or simplifying, as they coped or failed to cope with or exploited the ever changing environment. Why must God guide it all? If he exists, he would have invented the mechanism that gave rise to this vast potential and hence to the ever changing bush.
I'm happy to know that God would have given autonomy to organisms to survive easily by modifying themselves. You've entered His mind when no one else has. Certainly doesn't explain the whales and their complicated physiology popping up entirely unexplained. And remember 99% didn't survive! But complexity got more and more complex as time passed even if there was a back and forth. Note the article points out genetic studies do not support common descent, which means there was another actor, God, stepping in to run the show.
Evolution: common descent not shown by genetics
by dhw, Tuesday, January 30, 2018, 12:44 (2488 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Studies of DNA at various levels of evolution do not fit common descent:
http://nautil.us/issue/9/time/evolution-youre-drunk
dhw: Darwin: “There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one…” The alternative “few forms” is important in the context of this article.
DAVID: You can't deny that evolution proceeded from simple to very complex even though we see back and forth. Darwin added that quote above only after his first addition created so much furor.
Re complexity see later (and also under “chimps\r\not us"). As for Darwin, I am pointing out that the article is wrong: he offered the alternative of “a few forms”, and that alternative offers an explanation for possible different lines of descent. Please focus on the arguments.
Dhw: Casey is a “he” apparently.
DAVID: The author of the article is AMY. My comment is about the article and HER obvious prejudice.
Sorry, I thought you were attacking Casey Dunn.
dhw: […] Dunn’s link with the environment is crucial. Reversal is nothing new. Darwin regards vestigial organs as evidence for common descent, and this might give us a clue as to how the whole process works.
DAVID: Darwin's vestigial organs are not vestigial: for example the appendix has definite reasons for existing. Current research shows nothing considered vestigial by early human thought is vestigial.
Says who? Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigiality
“Vestigial characters are present throughout the animal kingdom, and an almost endless list could be given.”
Examples begin with ostrich and emu wings, cavefish eyes etc. etc. etc.
dhw: Complexity in itself is therefore irrelevant: the decisive factor is change that will improve the organism’s chances of survival and/or way of life. Once cells joined themselves into communities, they had an almost infinite potential of forms – some simple, some complex. Hence the ever changing bush, with organisms coming and going, complexifying or simplifying, as they coped or failed to cope with or exploited the ever changing environment. Why must God guide it all? If he exists, he would have invented the mechanism that gave rise to this vast potential and hence to the ever changing bush.
DAVID: I'm happy to know that God would have given autonomy to organisms to survive easily by modifying themselves. You've entered His mind when no one else has.
So when you tell us that God personally preprogrammed or dabbled every single innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder in order to provide energy to keep life going until he could produce the brain of Homo sapiens, you are not entering his mind? And you actually believe this, whereas at least I acknowledge that my proposal is a hypothesis. And who said anything about surviving easily? As you say in your next comment, 99% didn’t survive. That makes even more nonsense of your hypothesis. Your God deliberately preprogrammed or dabbled every life form to enable it to survive until it didn’t survive!
DAVID: Certainly doesn't explain the whales and their complicated physiology popping up entirely unexplained.
You keep admitting that you can’t explain it. I can, hypothetically (which is all anyone can do at the moment). Pre-whales entered the water, probably because they were having problems finding food on land, and found the new environment improved their chances of survival. Every subsequent stage of their evolution would have been a new adaptation to aquatic life. One might have expected your God to get it all perfect at one go – just as one might have have expected him to produce the one brain he wanted instead of messing around for millions of years with all the hominids and hominins’ brains. But it takes time for the intelligent cell communities that make up individual hominins and pre-whales to come up with new ideas.
DAVID: And remember 99% didn't survive! But complexity got more and more complex as time passed even if there was a back and forth. Note the article points out genetic studies do not support common descent, which means there was another actor, God, stepping in to run the show.
I did remember, and frequently have to remind you of it. The higgledy-piggledy back-ing and forth-ing once again provides massive problems for the hypothesis that your God – who is sometimes in full control but sometimes thwarted by his own limitations, depending on the problems I raise – only wanted to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. Genetic studies would support Darwin’s alternative “few forms”, which the author failed to notice. Even if there was only one, you could argue that it must have been complex, and right from the word go, the process of simplification/complexification got underway as its descendants were exposed to different environments. There is no need for God to run the show if he deliberately started it off by giving organisms the wherewithal to simplify/complexify and run the show themselves, leaving him – in your own words – to watch with interest. Just another hypothesis, of course.
Evolution: common descent not shown by genetics
by David Turell , Tuesday, January 30, 2018, 18:52 (2488 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: […] Dunn’s link with the environment is crucial. Reversal is nothing new. Darwin regards vestigial organs as evidence for common descent, and this might give us a clue as to how the whole process works.
DAVID: Darwin's vestigial organs are not vestigial: for example the appendix has definite reasons for existing. Current research shows nothing considered vestigial by early human thought is vestigial.
dhw: Says who? Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigiality
“Vestigial characters are present throughout the animal kingdom, and an almost endless list could be given.”
Examples begin with ostrich and emu wings, cavefish eyes etc. etc. etc.
I was discussing human 'vestigial'. I agree blind cave fish show reverse evolution. Adds no clue as to how speciation occurs.
DAVID: I'm happy to know that God would have given autonomy to organisms to survive easily by modifying themselves. You've entered His mind when no one else has.So when you tell us that God personally preprogrammed or dabbled every single innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder in order to provide energy to keep life going until he could produce the brain of Homo sapiens, you are not entering his mind? And you actually believe this, whereas at least I acknowledge that my proposal is a hypothesis. And who said anything about surviving easily? As you say in your next comment, 99% didn’t survive. That makes even more nonsense of your hypothesis. Your God deliberately preprogrammed or dabbled every life form to enable it to survive until it didn’t survive!
You don't know that God wished to 'enable it to survive until it didn't survive'. God controlled evolution which more than implies He arranged for extinctions as well as evolutionary complexity drive. I look at outcomes of evolution to indicate purpose, which does not read his mind as you do.
DAVID: Certainly doesn't explain the whales and their complicated physiology popping up entirely unexplained.dhw: You keep admitting that you can’t explain it. I can, hypothetically (which is all anyone can do at the moment)....One might have expected your God to get it all perfect at one go – just as one might have have expected him to produce the one brain he wanted instead of messing around for millions of years with all the hominids and hominins’ brains. But it takes time for the intelligent cell communities that make up individual hominins and pre-whales to come up with new ideas.
Intelligent cells as your Darwinist scientists tell you have intelligent responses to stimuli, which cannot extrapolate to committees designing new forms. They never have suggested that. It is your supposition. God chose to evolve every form is my answer.
DAVID: And remember 99% didn't survive! But complexity got more and more complex as time passed even if there was a back and forth. Note the article points out genetic studies do not support common descent, which means there was another actor, God, stepping in to run the show.dhw: I did remember, and frequently have to remind you of it. The higgledy-piggledy back-ing and forth-ing once again provides massive problems for the hypothesis that your God – who is sometimes in full control but sometimes thwarted by his own limitations, depending on the problems I raise – only wanted to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. Genetic studies would support Darwin’s alternative “few forms”, which the author failed to notice. Even if there was only one, you could argue that it must have been complex, and right from the word go, the process of simplification/complexification got underway as its descendants were exposed to different environments. There is no need for God to run the show if he deliberately started it off by giving organisms the wherewithal to simplify/complexify and run the show themselves, leaving him – in your own words – to watch with interest. Just another hypothesis, of course.
Yes, just wishful thinking.
Evolution: common descent not shown by genetics
by dhw, Wednesday, January 31, 2018, 14:10 (2487 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Darwin's vestigial organs are not vestigial: for example the appendix has definite reasons for existing. Current research shows nothing considered vestigial by early human thought is vestigial.
dhw: Says who? Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigiality
“Vestigial characters are present throughout the animal kingdom, and an almost endless list could be given.”
Examples begin with ostrich and emu wings, cavefish eyes etc. etc. etc.
DAVID: I was discussing human 'vestigial'. I agree blind cave fish show reverse evolution. Adds no clue as to how speciation occurs.
In case you hadn’t noticed, humans are not the only organisms on this planet, and Darwin uses vestigial structures as evidence for common descent, not for speciation. You and I disagree with his hypothesis that this is caused by random mutations.
DAVID: I'm happy to know that God would have given autonomy to organisms to survive easily by modifying themselves. You've entered His mind when no one else has.
Dhw: […] who said anything about surviving easily? As you say in your next comment, 99% didn’t survive. That makes even more nonsense of your hypothesis. Your God deliberately preprogrammed or dabbled every life form to enable it to survive until it didn’t survive!
DAVID: You don't know that God wished to 'enable it to survive until it didn't survive'. God controlled evolution which more than implies He arranged for extinctions as well as evolutionary complexity drive. I look at outcomes of evolution to indicate purpose, which does not read his mind as you do.
None of us “know” what happened, or what God’s intentions may have been, if he exists. But if he does, it is perfectly obvious that organisms survive until they don’t survive, and if God is in control, it makes perfect sense that this is what he wanted! I also look at “outcomes of evolution” to indicate purpose, and I have proposed a purpose which you have agreed fits in perfectly with the outcomes of evolution. We cannot speculate on a being’s purpose without trying to read his mind. If you say his purpose was to produce the human brain, that means he was thinking to himself: “I wanner produce the human brain.” Stop kidding yourself that your efforts to explain evolution are any different in approach from my own.
DAVID: Certainly doesn't explain the whales and their complicated physiology popping up entirely unexplained.
dhw: You keep admitting that you can’t explain it. I can, hypothetically (which is all anyone can do at the moment)....One might have expected your God to get it all perfect at one go – just as one might have have expected him to produce the one brain he wanted instead of messing around for millions of years with all the hominids and hominins’ brains. But it takes time for the intelligent cell communities that make up individual hominins and pre-whales to come up with new ideas.
DAVID: Intelligent cells as your Darwinist scientists tell you have intelligent responses to stimuli, which cannot extrapolate to committees designing new forms. They never have suggested that. It is your supposition.
My hypothesis (not supposition) explains what yours does not, and so you ignore the logic of the explanation and revert to the same point I have agreed to again and again: we don’t know if cells are capable of innovation, and that is why it is a hypothesis. If nobody else has suggested it, good for me. That does not mean it’s wrong.
DAVID: God chose to evolve every form is my answer.
And why is that a more scientific answer than God chose to enable organisms to evolve their own forms?
dhw: There is no need for God to run the show if he deliberately started it off by giving organisms the wherewithal to simplify/complexify and run the show themselves, leaving him – in your own words – to watch with interest. Just another hypothesis, of course.
DAVID: Yes, just wishful thinking.
No wishes involved – just an honest attempt to find an explanation that will fit the history of life as we think we know it. Some folk might say that it’s “wishful thinking” for someone to believe that God evolved every form for the purpose of keeping life going so that he could produce the brain of David Turell, dhw et al.
Evolution: common descent not shown by genetics
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 31, 2018, 16:21 (2487 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Intelligent cells as your Darwinist scientists tell you have intelligent responses to stimuli, which cannot extrapolate to committees designing new forms. They never have suggested that. It is your supposition.
dhw: My hypothesis (not supposition) explains what yours does not, and so you ignore the logic of the explanation and revert to the same point I have agreed to again and again: we don’t know if cells are capable of innovation, and that is why it is a hypothesis. If nobody else has suggested it, good for me. That does not mean it’s wrong.
Which brings us back to the point of this entry. The genetic tree does not fit the apparent tree when animal forms are used as guidance to create such a tree or bush. Which means we are still missing a major 'something' in trying to explain the process of evolution. Gene enhancers in the chimp entry today offer a clue.
DAVID: God chose to evolve every form is my answer.dhw: And why is that a more scientific answer than God chose to enable organisms to evolve their own forms?
dhw: There is no need for God to run the show if he deliberately started it off by giving organisms the wherewithal to simplify/complexify and run the show themselves, leaving him – in your own words – to watch with interest. Just another hypothesis, of course.
DAVID: Yes, just wishful thinking.dhw: No wishes involved – just an honest attempt to find an explanation that will fit the history of life as we think we know it. Some folk might say that it’s “wishful thinking” for someone to believe that God evolved every form for the purpose of keeping life going so that he could produce the brain of David Turell, dhw et al.
All attempts are honest
Evolution: only genetics can design a bush of life
by David Turell , Tuesday, September 25, 2018, 17:44 (2250 days ago) @ David Turell
A new study on a very simple group of animals can sort out relationships only by use of genetics. Phenotype cannot work and must be discarded:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/worlds-simplest-animal-reveals-hidden-diversity-20180912/
"The world’s simplest known animal is so poorly understood that it doesn’t even have a common name. Formally called Trichoplax adhaerens for the way it adheres to glassware, the amorphous blob isn’t much to look at. At just a few millimeters across, the creature resembles a squashed sandwich in which the top layer protects, the bottom layer crawls, and the slimy stuffing sticks it all together. With no organs and just a handful of cell types, the most interesting thing about T. adhaerens might just be how stunningly boring it is.
***
"But after spending four years painstakingly reconstructing the blob’s genome, Eitel might know more about the organism than anyone else on the planet. In particular, he has looked closely enough at its genetic code to learn what visual inspections failed to reveal. The variety of creature that biologists have long called T. adhaerens is really at least two, and perhaps as many as a dozen, anatomically identical but genetically distinct “cryptic species” of animals. The discovery sets a precedent for taxonomy, the science of naming organisms, as the first time a new animal genus has been defined not by appearance, but by pure genetics.
***
"Ever since its discovery in the late 1800s, T. adhaerens has been recognized as having a highly unusual body plan, and it has formally had the phylum of Placozoa (“flat animals”) to itself for almost half a century. Just one level more specific than kingdom, a phylum is a cavernous space to occupy alone: Our phylum, Chordata, overflows with more than 65,000 living species ranging from peacocks to whales to eels. Biologists have long suspected that Placozoa hid more diversity, and mitochondrial evidence strengthened that suspicion in 2004, when researchers found that short sequences from different individuals looked about as different as those of organisms from different families (one level more general than genus).
'But that observation about the two Placozoa didn’t meet the accepted international standards for putting them in new taxonomic categories, which have historically been based on animals’ forms. “At the time we had just uncovered the genetic differences,” said Allen G. Collins, a co-author of the 2004 paper.
***
" When the team finally had a full genome ready for comparison, the payoff turned out to be worth the wait. “We expected to find differences, but when I first saw the results of our analyses, I was really overwhelmed,” Eitel said.
"A quarter of the genes were in the wrong spot or written backward. Instructions for similar proteins were spelled nearly 30 percent differently on average, and in some cases as much as 80 percent. The Hong Kong variety was missing 4 percent of its distant cousin’s genes and had its own share of genes unique to itself. Overall, the Hong Kong placozoan genome was about as different from that of T. adhaerens as human DNA is from mouse DNA. “It was really striking,” Eitel said. “They look the same, and we look completely different from mice.”
***
"By comparing the Placozoa variation with the average genetic differences between groups in other phyla, the German team concluded that the Hong Kong Placozoa qualified as not only a new species, but also a new genus.
***
"The team gave their specimen the genus name Hoilungia, for a shapeshifting dragon king from Chinese mythology, and they named the species hongkongensis, for where it was collected. Similar genome-based classifications are common in the protist and bacterial worlds, and a relative handful of cryptic animal species have been named based on genetics. Namings (and renamings) that blend morphological characters with genetic ones, which recently re-classified a common houseplant, are also growing more common. But this was the first time genetic characters alone, unsupported by features like beak size or fin number, had been used to define an animal genus. “These people did the whole thing from the sexy molecular biology all the way to the proper naming,” said Susanne Renner, a botanist at the Ludwig Maximilian University. “It’s just great.”
***
"Renner says this work is the latest step in an ongoing shift toward genetic taxonomy. “It took a long time to take off and now it’s taking off,” she said. She points out that in contrast with the pages of text that can go into a formal description of a species, specifying an organism with just four letters as the German team has done lends itself to snappy efficiency. “Linnaeus would be happy to do it. He was envisioning very brief and sharp diagnoses.'”
Comment: It occurs to me that this revolution in classification might help better define the whale series and perhaps explain the the pattern of change, by using fossil DNA, as has been dome in researching human origins. But what I can predict is the branches of the bush will be changed.
Evolution: only genetics can design a bush of life
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Tuesday, September 25, 2018, 21:10 (2250 days ago) @ David Turell
A new study on a very simple group of animals can sort out relationships only by use of genetics. Phenotype cannot work and must be discarded:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/worlds-simplest-animal-reveals-hidden-diversity-20180912/
"The world’s simplest known animal is so poorly understood that it doesn’t even have a common name. Formally called Trichoplax adhaerens for the way it adheres to glassware, the amorphous blob isn’t much to look at. At just a few millimeters across, the creature resembles a squashed sandwich in which the top layer protects, the bottom layer crawls, and the slimy stuffing sticks it all together. With no organs and just a handful of cell types, the most interesting thing about T. adhaerens might just be how stunningly boring it is.
***
"But after spending four years painstakingly reconstructing the blob’s genome, Eitel might know more about the organism than anyone else on the planet. In particular, he has looked closely enough at its genetic code to learn what visual inspections failed to reveal. The variety of creature that biologists have long called T. adhaerens is really at least two, and perhaps as many as a dozen, anatomically identical but genetically distinct “cryptic species” of animals. The discovery sets a precedent for taxonomy, the science of naming organisms, as the first time a new animal genus has been defined not by appearance, but by pure genetics.
***
"Ever since its discovery in the late 1800s, T. adhaerens has been recognized as having a highly unusual body plan, and it has formally had the phylum of Placozoa (“flat animals”) to itself for almost half a century. Just one level more specific than kingdom, a phylum is a cavernous space to occupy alone: Our phylum, Chordata, overflows with more than 65,000 living species ranging from peacocks to whales to eels. Biologists have long suspected that Placozoa hid more diversity, and mitochondrial evidence strengthened that suspicion in 2004, when researchers found that short sequences from different individuals looked about as different as those of organisms from different families (one level more general than genus).
'But that observation about the two Placozoa didn’t meet the accepted international standards for putting them in new taxonomic categories, which have historically been based on animals’ forms. “At the time we had just uncovered the genetic differences,” said Allen G. Collins, a co-author of the 2004 paper.
***
" When the team finally had a full genome ready for comparison, the payoff turned out to be worth the wait. “We expected to find differences, but when I first saw the results of our analyses, I was really overwhelmed,” Eitel said.
"A quarter of the genes were in the wrong spot or written backward. Instructions for similar proteins were spelled nearly 30 percent differently on average, and in some cases as much as 80 percent. The Hong Kong variety was missing 4 percent of its distant cousin’s genes and had its own share of genes unique to itself. Overall, the Hong Kong placozoan genome was about as different from that of T. adhaerens as human DNA is from mouse DNA. “It was really striking,” Eitel said. “They look the same, and we look completely different from mice.”
***
"By comparing the Placozoa variation with the average genetic differences between groups in other phyla, the German team concluded that the Hong Kong Placozoa qualified as not only a new species, but also a new genus.
***
"The team gave their specimen the genus name Hoilungia, for a shapeshifting dragon king from Chinese mythology, and they named the species hongkongensis, for where it was collected. Similar genome-based classifications are common in the protist and bacterial worlds, and a relative handful of cryptic animal species have been named based on genetics. Namings (and renamings) that blend morphological characters with genetic ones, which recently re-classified a common houseplant, are also growing more common. But this was the first time genetic characters alone, unsupported by features like beak size or fin number, had been used to define an animal genus. “These people did the whole thing from the sexy molecular biology all the way to the proper naming,” said Susanne Renner, a botanist at the Ludwig Maximilian University. “It’s just great.”
***
"Renner says this work is the latest step in an ongoing shift toward genetic taxonomy. “It took a long time to take off and now it’s taking off,” she said. She points out that in contrast with the pages of text that can go into a formal description of a species, specifying an organism with just four letters as the German team has done lends itself to snappy efficiency. “Linnaeus would be happy to do it. He was envisioning very brief and sharp diagnoses.'”
David: Comment: It occurs to me that this revolution in classification might help better define the whale series and perhaps explain the the pattern of change, by using fossil DNA, as has been dome in researching human origins. But what I can predict is the branches of the bush will be changed.
Personally, I think they will have a long, hard haul trying to make any sense out of the results unless they let go of common descent.
--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: only genetics can design a bush of life
by David Turell , Tuesday, September 25, 2018, 22:21 (2250 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
David: A new study on a very simple group of animals can sort out relationships only by use of genetics. Phenotype cannot work and must be discarded:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/worlds-simplest-animal-reveals-hidden-diversity-20180912/
"The world’s simplest known animal is so poorly understood that it doesn’t even have a common name. Formally called Trichoplax adhaerens for the way it adheres to glassware, the amorphous blob isn’t much to look at. At just a few millimeters across, the creature resembles a squashed sandwich in which the top layer protects, the bottom layer crawls, and the slimy stuffing sticks it all together. With no organs and just a handful of cell types, the most interesting thing about T. adhaerens might just be how stunningly boring it is.
***
"But after spending four years painstakingly reconstructing the blob’s genome, Eitel might know more about the organism than anyone else on the planet. In particular, he has looked closely enough at its genetic code to learn what visual inspections failed to reveal. The variety of creature that biologists have long called T. adhaerens is really at least two, and perhaps as many as a dozen, anatomically identical but genetically distinct “cryptic species” of animals. The discovery sets a precedent for taxonomy, the science of naming organisms, as the first time a new animal genus has been defined not by appearance, but by pure genetics.
David: Comment: It occurs to me that this revolution in classification might help better define the whale series and perhaps explain the the pattern of change, by using fossil DNA, as has been dome in researching human origins. But what I can predict is the branches of the bush will be changed.
Tony: Personally, I think they will have a long, hard haul trying to make any sense out of the results unless they let go of common descent.
You know I am of a different thought pattern. I think life started single cells created by God and He then guided the stage of development at every level until humans appeared. The complexity of the process requires a planning designer. The persistence of life requires a vast diversity of living forms to provide a necessary balance of nature as a source for food energy for life to persist over millions of years, since life must exist in homeostasis constantly. Proof only by similar body plans cannot be accurate as the article shows.
Evolution: materialism explanation doesn't work
by David Turell , Sunday, October 07, 2018, 20:27 (2238 days ago) @ David Turell
It is difficult to avoid intelligent design:
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/from-barren-planet-to-civilization-in-fo...
"There are four steps in the usual materialist explanation of how advanced civilizations can spontaneously arise on barren, Earth-like, planets, without design:
"Three or four billion years ago a collection of atoms formed by pure chance that was able to duplicate itself.
"These complex collections of atoms were able to preserve their complex structures and pass them on to their descendants, generation after generation.
"Over a long period of time, the accumulation of duplication errors resulted in more and more elaborate collections of atoms.
"Eventually something called “intelligence” allowed some of these collections of atoms to design computers and airplanes, and write encyclopedias and science texts.
"The first step is the origin of life: even most materialists will admit that this is a very difficult problem which has not yet been solved by science. Regarding the fourth step, we may feel that we understand how humans design and build computers and airplanes, because we see it happen all the time. But seeing something happen and understanding how it happens are two very different things, and again I think even most materialists will agree that science cannot yet explain human consciousness or intelligence in terms of unintelligent forces alone.
***
“'Gaps among known orders, classes and phyla are systematic and almost always large,” writes Harvard paleontologist George Gaylord Simpson. And new organs and new systems of organs do not appear very gradually, as Darwin had expected, for the same reason that major new technological advances do not appear very gradually: gradual transitions would have to involve puzzling new but not yet useful features. Although he calls evolution “axiomatic,” University of California geologist Joseph Le Conte acknowledges in his 1888 book Evolution that in the fossil record, “species seem to come in suddenly” and that gradual transitions could not be explained by natural selection if they did exist: “An organ must be already useful before natural selection can take hold of it to improve it,” he concedes. (my bold)
***
"Reproduction is the most fundamental characteristic of life, we see it happen everywhere, so we may feel there is no mystery to reproduction. But again, seeing something happen and explaining how it happens naturally are two very different things. Is it really true that if cars were able to give birth to other cars—that is, if they were able to reproduce themselves almost perfectly, with occasional minor duplication errors—that would make the evolution of cars easier to explain without design?.....We are so used to seeing animals make nearly perfect copies of themselves that we dismiss this as just another “natural” process; but if we actually saw cars with fully automated car factories inside, making new cars with car factories inside them, maybe we would realize what an astonishing process reproduction really is, and we might conclude that reproduction actually makes evolution even more difficult to explain without design.
***
" The argument for intelligent design here could not be simpler or clearer: unintelligent forces of physics alone cannot rearrange atoms into computers and airplanes and Apple iPhones. And the counterargument consists of four steps, each of which–to put it very generously–is full of dubious and unproven assertions."
Comment: The two items that stick in the craw of Darwinism are reproduction and consciousness, Neither are explained by chance evolution. The last objection is my bolded sentence. How does natural selection select an organ unless it is functional to begin with? The only answer is an intelligent designer running the show.
Evolution: materialism explanation doesn't work
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Monday, October 08, 2018, 06:07 (2238 days ago) @ David Turell
It is difficult to avoid intelligent design:
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/from-barren-planet-to-civilization-in-fo...
Comment: The two items that stick in the craw of Darwinism are reproduction and consciousness, Neither are explained by chance evolution. The last objection is my bolded sentence. How does natural selection select an organ unless it is functional to begin with? The only answer is an intelligent designer running the show.
Monty Python's Life of Brian meets College Biology 101
Biology Student 1. Let's not forget abiogenesis.
Evolutionist Professor(Ticking off on his fingers,):Ok, so aside from reproduction, consciousness, and abiogenesis, what has evolution not been able to deal with?
Biology Student 2: Um.. speciation.
Evolutionist Professor: Right, well of course speciation. Duh. Pfhht. But excluding reproduction, consciousness,abiogenesis, and speciation, what can't evolution account for?
Biology Student 3. Lack of transitional forms in the fossil record?
Evolutionist Professor: Fair enough. I forgot about that one. Good point, but except for the reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, and lack of fossils, what can't evolution explain?
Biology Student 4: The increase in informational complexity?
Evolutionist Professor: Right..well of course it really shouldn't do that. It's a bit of a problem honestly. So, not taking into account reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, the fossil record, or the increase in information, what can't evolution explain?
Biology Student 5: The 'conservation' of genetic sequences across species whose 'most recent common ancestor' could not have possessed.
Evolutionist Professor: Bloody 'trans-species genetic conservation...' had to lie about that one a lot. A REAALL humdinger that one. But aside from reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, fossil record, informational increase, or genetic conservation, WHAT CAN'T EVOLUTION EXPLAIN?
--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: materialism explanation doesn't work
by David Turell , Monday, October 08, 2018, 14:41 (2237 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
David: It is difficult to avoid intelligent design:
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/from-barren-planet-to-civilization-in-fo...
Comment: The two items that stick in the craw of Darwinism are reproduction and consciousness, Neither are explained by chance evolution. The last objection is my bolded sentence. How does natural selection select an organ unless it is functional to begin with? The only answer is an intelligent designer running the show.
Tony: Monty Python's Life of Brian meets College Biology 101
Biology Student 1. Let's not forget abiogenesis.Evolutionist Professor(Ticking off on his fingers,):Ok, so aside from reproduction, consciousness, and abiogenesis, what has evolution not been able to deal with?
Biology Student 2: Um.. speciation.
Evolutionist Professor: Right, well of course speciation. Duh. Pfhht. But excluding reproduction, consciousness,abiogenesis, and speciation, what can't evolution account for?
Biology Student 3. Lack of transitional forms in the fossil record?
Evolutionist Professor: Fair enough. I forgot about that one. Good point, but except for the reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, and lack of fossils, what can't evolution explain?
Biology Student 4: The increase in informational complexity?
Evolutionist Professor: Right..well of course it really shouldn't do that. It's a bit of a problem honestly. So, not taking into account reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, the fossil record, or the increase in information, what can't evolution explain?
Biology Student 5: The 'conservation' of genetic sequences across species whose 'most recent common ancestor' could not have possessed.
Evolutionist Professor: Bloody 'trans-species genetic conservation...' had to lie about that one a lot. A REAALL humdinger that one. But aside from reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, fossil record, informational increase, or genetic conservation, WHAT CAN'T EVOLUTION EXPLAIN?
Answer: How to advance complexity without a designer in charge?
Evolution: materialism explanation doesn't work
by dhw, Monday, October 08, 2018, 14:17 (2237 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTES: “An organ must be already useful before natural selection can take hold of it to improve it,” he concedes. (DAVID’s bold)
"The argument for intelligent design here could not be simpler or clearer: unintelligent forces of physics alone cannot rearrange atoms into computers and airplanes and Apple iPhones. And the counterargument consists of four steps, each of which–to put it very generously–is full of dubious and unproven assertions."
DAVID’s comment: The two items that stick in the craw of Darwinism are reproduction and consciousness, Neither are explained by chance evolution. The last objection is my bolded sentence. How does natural selection select an organ unless it is functional to begin with? The only answer is an intelligent designer running the show.
The article repeats all the ground that we have covered over and over again in favour of design over chance. However, Darwinism does not attempt to explain life, reproduction or consciousness. It attempts to show that all organisms descend from earlier organisms, going back to the very first, whose origin is unknown. The basic problem is innovation, and many of us feel that random mutation is an extremely unlikely cause. Hence my hypothesis of possibly God-given cellular intelligence, and your hypothesis of a divine 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme for every single innovation, bar those engineered by your God’s dabbling. Natural selection, we have agreed a thousand times, only explains why innovations survive, not how they come into being.
xxxxxxx
TONY:
Monty Python's Life of Brian meets College Biology 101
Biology Student 1. Let's not forget abiogenesis.
Evolutionist Professor(Ticking off on his fingers,): Ok, so aside from reproduction, consciousness, and abiogenesis, what has evolution not been able to deal with?
Biology Student 2: Um.. speciation.
Evolutionist Professor: Right, well of course speciation. Duh. Pfhht. But excluding reproduction, consciousness,abiogenesis, and speciation, what can't evolution account for?
Biology Student 3. Lack of transitional forms in the fossil record?
Evolutionist Professor: Fair enough. I forgot about that one. Good point, but except for the reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, and lack of fossils, what can't evolution explain?
Biology Student 4: The increase in informational complexity?
Evolutionist Professor: Right..well of course it really shouldn't do that. It's a bit of a problem honestly. So, not taking into account reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, the fossil record, or the increase in information, what can't evolution explain?
Biology Student 5: The 'conservation' of genetic sequences across species whose 'most recent common ancestor' could not have possessed.
Evolutionist Professor: Bloody 'trans-species genetic conservation...' had to lie about that one a lot. A REAALL humdinger that one. But aside from reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, fossil record, informational increase, or genetic conservation, WHAT CAN'T EVOLUTION EXPLAIN?
I love it. Thank you! But in fairness, as above, evolution does not attempt to explain the origin of life, reproduction or consciousness
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
THEOLOGY STUDENT: Where does God come from?
THEOLOGY PROFESSOR: We don’t know.
STUDENT: What does he look like?
PROFESSOR: We don’t know.
STUDENT: What is his nature?
PROFESSOR: We don’t know.
STUDENT: Can we see or hear him?
PROFESSOR: No.
STUDENT: Can we contact him?
PROFESSOR: No.
STUDENT: How do we know he’s there?
PROFESSOR: We don’t.
STUDENT: How do we know he was ever there?
PROFESSOR: Because life and consciousness are so complex that they must have been designed.
STUDENT: Is God alive and conscious?
PROFESSOR: Yes.
STUDENT: So who designed him?
PROFESSOR: Time for a break.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Evolution: materialism explanation doesn't work
by David Turell , Monday, October 08, 2018, 14:52 (2237 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTES: “An organ must be already useful before natural selection can take hold of it to improve it,” he concedes. (DAVID’s bold)
"The argument for intelligent design here could not be simpler or clearer: unintelligent forces of physics alone cannot rearrange atoms into computers and airplanes and Apple iPhones. And the counterargument consists of four steps, each of which–to put it very generously–is full of dubious and unproven assertions."
DAVID’s comment: The two items that stick in the craw of Darwinism are reproduction and consciousness, Neither are explained by chance evolution. The last objection is my bolded sentence. How does natural selection select an organ unless it is functional to begin with? The only answer is an intelligent designer running the show.
dhw: The article repeats all the ground that we have covered over and over again in favour of design over chance. However, Darwinism does not attempt to explain life, reproduction or consciousness. It attempts to show that all organisms descend from earlier organisms, going back to the very first, whose origin is unknown. The basic problem is innovation, and many of us feel that random mutation is an extremely unlikely cause. Hence my hypothesis of possibly God-given cellular intelligence, and your hypothesis of a divine 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme for every single innovation, bar those engineered by your God’s dabbling. Natural selection, we have agreed a thousand times, only explains why innovations survive, not how they come into being.
I don't think we have agreed to anything more than natural selection is a tautology. It is a term that implies life struggles to exist when we see extremeophiles that disprove the point. And so called competition for survival is a misinterpretation of the neat balance of nature that provides food for all.
xxxxxxx
TONY:
Monty Python's Life of Brian meets College Biology 101Biology Student 1. Let's not forget abiogenesis.
Evolutionist Professor(Ticking off on his fingers,): Ok, so aside from reproduction, consciousness, and abiogenesis, what has evolution not been able to deal with?
Biology Student 2: Um.. speciation.
Evolutionist Professor: Right, well of course speciation. Duh. Pfhht. But excluding reproduction, consciousness,abiogenesis, and speciation, what can't evolution account for?
Biology Student 3. Lack of transitional forms in the fossil record?
Evolutionist Professor: Fair enough. I forgot about that one. Good point, but except for the reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, and lack of fossils, what can't evolution explain?
Biology Student 4: The increase in informational complexity?
Evolutionist Professor: Right..well of course it really shouldn't do that. It's a bit of a problem honestly. So, not taking into account reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, the fossil record, or the increase in information, what can't evolution explain?
Biology Student 5: The 'conservation' of genetic sequences across species whose 'most recent common ancestor' could not have possessed.
Evolutionist Professor: Bloody 'trans-species genetic conservation...' had to lie about that one a lot. A REAALL humdinger that one. But aside from reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, fossil record, informational increase, or genetic conservation, WHAT CAN'T EVOLUTION EXPLAIN?
dhw: I love it. Thank you! But in fairness, as above, evolution does not attempt to explain the origin of life, reproduction or consciousness
THEOLOGY STUDENT: Where does God come from?
THEOLOGY PROFESSOR: We don’t know.
STUDENT: What does he look like?
PROFESSOR: We don’t know.
STUDENT: What is his nature?
PROFESSOR: We don’t know.
STUDENT: Can we see or hear him?
PROFESSOR: No.
STUDENT: Can we contact him?
PROFESSOR: No.
STUDENT: How do we know he’s there?
PROFESSOR: We don’t.
STUDENT: How do we know he was ever there?
PROFESSOR: Because life and consciousness are so complex that they must have been designed.
STUDENT: Is God alive and conscious?
PROFESSOR: Yes.
STUDENT: So who designed him?
PROFESSOR: Time for a break
From the back of the room: God is eternal!
Evolution: materialism explanation doesn't work
by David Turell , Monday, October 08, 2018, 14:54 (2237 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTES: “An organ must be already useful before natural selection can take hold of it to improve it,” he concedes. (DAVID’s bold)
"The argument for intelligent design here could not be simpler or clearer: unintelligent forces of physics alone cannot rearrange atoms into computers and airplanes and Apple iPhones. And the counterargument consists of four steps, each of which–to put it very generously–is full of dubious and unproven assertions."
DAVID’s comment: The two items that stick in the craw of Darwinism are reproduction and consciousness, Neither are explained by chance evolution. The last objection is my bolded sentence. How does natural selection select an organ unless it is functional to begin with? The only answer is an intelligent designer running the show.
dhw: The article repeats all the ground that we have covered over and over again in favour of design over chance. However, Darwinism does not attempt to explain life, reproduction or consciousness. It attempts to show that all organisms descend from earlier organisms, going back to the very first, whose origin is unknown. The basic problem is innovation, and many of us feel that random mutation is an extremely unlikely cause. Hence my hypothesis of possibly God-given cellular intelligence, and your hypothesis of a divine 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme for every single innovation, bar those engineered by your God’s dabbling. Natural selection, we have agreed a thousand times, only explains why innovations survive, not how they come into being.
I don't think we have agreed to anything more than natural selection is a tautology. It is a term that implies life struggles to exist when we see extremeophiles that disprove the point. And so called competition for survival is a misinterpretation of the neat balance of nature that provides food for all.
xxxxxxx
TONY:
Monty Python's Life of Brian meets College Biology 101Biology Student 1. Let's not forget abiogenesis.
Evolutionist Professor(Ticking off on his fingers,): Ok, so aside from reproduction, consciousness, and abiogenesis, what has evolution not been able to deal with?
Biology Student 2: Um.. speciation.
Evolutionist Professor: Right, well of course speciation. Duh. Pfhht. But excluding reproduction, consciousness,abiogenesis, and speciation, what can't evolution account for?
Biology Student 3. Lack of transitional forms in the fossil record?
Evolutionist Professor: Fair enough. I forgot about that one. Good point, but except for the reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, and lack of fossils, what can't evolution explain?
Biology Student 4: The increase in informational complexity?
Evolutionist Professor: Right..well of course it really shouldn't do that. It's a bit of a problem honestly. So, not taking into account reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, the fossil record, or the increase in information, what can't evolution explain?
Biology Student 5: The 'conservation' of genetic sequences across species whose 'most recent common ancestor' could not have possessed.
Evolutionist Professor: Bloody 'trans-species genetic conservation...' had to lie about that one a lot. A REAALL humdinger that one. But aside from reproduction, consciousness, abiogenesis, speciation, fossil record, informational increase, or genetic conservation, WHAT CAN'T EVOLUTION EXPLAIN?
dhw: I love it. Thank you! But in fairness, as above, evolution does not attempt to explain the origin of life, reproduction or consciousness
THEOLOGY STUDENT: Where does God come from?
THEOLOGY PROFESSOR: We don’t know.
STUDENT: What does he look like?
PROFESSOR: We don’t know.
STUDENT: What is his nature?
PROFESSOR: We don’t know.
STUDENT: Can we see or hear him?
PROFESSOR: No.
STUDENT: Can we contact him?
PROFESSOR: No.
STUDENT: How do we know he’s there?
PROFESSOR: We don’t.
STUDENT: How do we know he was ever there?
PROFESSOR: Because life and consciousness are so complex that they must have been designed.
STUDENT: Is God alive and conscious?
PROFESSOR: Yes.
STUDENT: So who designed him?
PROFESSOR: Time for a break
From the back of the room: God is eternal! You can't get something from nothing!
Evolution: materialism explanation doesn't work
by dhw, Tuesday, October 09, 2018, 09:17 (2237 days ago) @ David Turell
Dhw: Natural selection, we have agreed a thousand times, only explains why innovations survive, not how they come into being.
DAVID: I don't think we have agreed to anything more than natural selection is a tautology. It is a term that implies life struggles to exist when we see extremeophiles that disprove the point. And so called competition for survival is a misinterpretation of the neat balance of nature that provides food for all.
I don’t know what world you live in. The “neat balance” of nature has constantly changed and is even changing today because nature does not provide food for all. Habitats change, and 90+% of species have gone extinct. There is and always has been competition for survival, and today it is humans and bacteria that are winning the competition hands down. But competition is not the only factor that has driven evolution. Cooperation has been equally important. Natural selection simply determines which organisms survive. Don't you agree?
STUDENT: How do we know he was ever there?
PROFESSOR: Because life and consciousness are so complex that they must have been designed.
STUDENT: Is God alive and conscious?
PROFESSOR: Yes.
STUDENT: So who designed him?
PROFESSOR: Time for a break
DAVID: From the back of the room: God is eternal! You can't get something from nothing!
If life and consciousness have to be designed, it makes no sense to claim that a living, conscious God does not have to be designed. If you can’t get something from nothing, and if your God is an existing something, he can’t have come from nothing. It’s your first cause argument all over again, and it requires as much irrational faith to believe that a conscious mind has always been there as it does to believe that consciousness arose by chance out of mindless combinations of energy and matter that have always been there.
Evolution: materialism explanation doesn't work
by David Turell , Tuesday, October 09, 2018, 17:40 (2236 days ago) @ dhw
Dhw: Natural selection, we have agreed a thousand times, only explains why innovations survive, not how they come into being.
DAVID: I don't think we have agreed to anything more than natural selection is a tautology. It is a term that implies life struggles to exist when we see extremeophiles that disprove the point. And so called competition for survival is a misinterpretation of the neat balance of nature that provides food for all.
dhw: I don’t know what world you live in. The “neat balance” of nature has constantly changed and is even changing today because nature does not provide food for all. Habitats change, and 90+% of species have gone extinct. There is and always has been competition for survival, and today it is humans and bacteria that are winning the competition hands down. But competition is not the only factor that has driven evolution. Cooperation has been equally important. Natural selection simply determines which organisms survive. Don't you agree?
No. Natural selection is a supposition for competition culling inadequately fit life. Never proven. Of course the balance always changes as life and earth continue to evolve their balanced relationship. Homeostasis requires constant adjustments.
STUDENT: How do we know he was ever there?
PROFESSOR: Because life and consciousness are so complex that they must have been designed.
STUDENT: Is God alive and conscious?
PROFESSOR: Yes.
STUDENT: So who designed him?
PROFESSOR: Time for a breakDAVID: From the back of the room: God is eternal! You can't get something from nothing!
dhw: If life and consciousness have to be designed, it makes no sense to claim that a living, conscious God does not have to be designed. If you can’t get something from nothing, and if your God is an existing something, he can’t have come from nothing. It’s your first cause argument all over again, and it requires as much irrational faith to believe that a conscious mind has always been there as it does to believe that consciousness arose by chance out of mindless combinations of energy and matter that have always been there.
Non-existence in a total void cannot create something, Therefore something has to be eternal. We are something and therefore something has always exited. Your irrational circular thinking needs rethinking.
Evolution: materialism explanation doesn't work
by dhw, Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 09:29 (2236 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Natural selection, we have agreed a thousand times, only explains why innovations survive, not how they come into being.
DAVID: I don't think we have agreed to anything more than natural selection is a tautology. It is a term that implies life struggles to exist when we see extremeophiles that disprove the point. And so called competition for survival is a misinterpretation of the neat balance of nature that provides food for all.
dhw: I don’t know what world you live in. The “neat balance” of nature has constantly changed and is even changing today because nature does not provide food for all. Habitats change, and 90+% of species have gone extinct. There is and always has been competition for survival, and today it is humans and bacteria that are winning the competition hands down. But competition is not the only factor that has driven evolution. Cooperation has been equally important. Natural selection simply determines which organisms survive. Don't you agree?
DAVID: No. Natural selection is a supposition for competition culling inadequately fit life. Never proven. Of course the balance always changes as life and earth continue to evolve their balanced relationship. Homeostasis requires constant adjustments.
Natural selection: you think it’s never been proven that organisms die if starved of food (i.e. those that are able to get food survive, those that can’t, die.)
Balance of nature: “the neat balance of nature provides food for all”, except that it doesn’t, which is why the balance of nature constantly changes.
DAVID: From the back of the room: God is eternal! You can't get something from nothing!
dhw: If life and consciousness have to be designed, it makes no sense to claim that a living, conscious God does not have to be designed. If you can’t get something from nothing, and if your God is an existing something, he can’t have come from nothing. It’s your first cause argument all over again, and it requires as much irrational faith to believe that a conscious mind has always been there as it does to believe that consciousness arose by chance out of mindless combinations of energy and matter that have always been there.
DAVID: Non-existence in a total void cannot create something, Therefore something has to be eternal. We are something and therefore something has always exited. Your irrational circular thinking needs rethinking.
The alternative first cause I have proposed is not a total void! You have even quoted me: “mindless combinations of energy and matter that have always been there.” Please read what you quote before pretending your straw man is mine!
Evolution: materialism explanation doesn't work
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 10, 2018, 17:55 (2235 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: I don’t know what world you live in. The “neat balance” of nature has constantly changed and is even changing today because nature does not provide food for all. Habitats change, and 90+% of species have gone extinct. There is and always has been competition for survival, and today it is humans and bacteria that are winning the competition hands down. But competition is not the only factor that has driven evolution. Cooperation has been equally important. Natural selection simply determines which organisms survive. Don't you agree?
DAVID: No. Natural selection is a supposition for competition culling inadequately fit life. Never proven. Of course the balance always changes as life and earth continue to evolve their balanced relationship. Homeostasis requires constant adjustments.
dhw: Natural selection: you think it’s never been proven that organisms die if starved of food (i.e. those that are able to get food survive, those that can’t, die.)
Balance of nature: “the neat balance of nature provides food for all”, except that it doesn’t, which is why the balance of nature constantly changes.
All you have pointed out is individuals die, which doesn't prove evolution by natural selection. Balance of nature adjusts to the types of individuals existing in an area. None of this provides a compass for the advance of life's evolution.
DAVID: From the back of the room: God is eternal! You can't get something from nothing!dhw: If life and consciousness have to be designed, it makes no sense to claim that a living, conscious God does not have to be designed. If you can’t get something from nothing, and if your God is an existing something, he can’t have come from nothing. It’s your first cause argument all over again, and it requires as much irrational faith to believe that a conscious mind has always been there as it does to believe that consciousness arose by chance out of mindless combinations of energy and matter that have always been there.
DAVID: Non-existence in a total void cannot create something, Therefore something has to be eternal. We are something and therefore something has always exited. Your irrational circular thinking needs rethinking.
dhw: The alternative first cause I have proposed is not a total void! You have even quoted me: “mindless combinations of energy and matter that have always been there.” Please read what you quote before pretending your straw man is mine!
I've never supported mindless energy as first cause. God is first cause as a designing mind of pure energy. Give me the date and content of the quote you have scissored out of something to create a meaning I have never supported..
Evolution: materialism explanation doesn't work
by dhw, Thursday, October 11, 2018, 11:52 (2235 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Natural selection simply determines which organisms survive. Don't you agree?
DAVID: No. Natural selection is a supposition for competition culling inadequately fit life. Never proven. Of course the balance always changes as life and earth continue to evolve their balanced relationship. Homeostasis requires constant adjustments.
dhw: Natural selection: you think it’s never been proven that organisms die if starved of food (i.e. those that are able to get food survive, those that can’t, die.)
Balance of nature: “the neat balance of nature provides food for all”, except that it doesn’t, which is why the balance of nature constantly changes.
DAVID: All you have pointed out is individuals die, which doesn't prove evolution by natural selection. Balance of nature adjusts to the types of individuals existing in an area. None of this provides a compass for the advance of life's evolution.
Species die! I have never supported “evolution by natural selection”! Natural selection does not explain innovation, it only determines which organs/organisms SURVIVE! I don’t know why you keep trying to disagree with a statement we have agreed on over and over again. And balance of nature does not “provide food for all”. It simply keeps adjusting itself according to which organisms can survive in which environments. As you say, nothing to do with “the advance of life’s evolution”, which depends on innovation.
Dhw: It’s your first cause argument all over again, and it requires as much irrational faith to believe that a conscious mind has always been there as it does to believe that consciousness arose by chance out of mindless combinations of energy and matter that have always been there.
DAVID: Non-existence in a total void cannot create something, Therefore something has to be eternal. We are something and therefore something has always exited. Your irrational circular thinking needs rethinking.
dhw: The alternative first cause I have proposed is not a total void! You have even quoted me: “mindless combinations of energy and matter that have always been there.” Please read what you quote before pretending your straw man is mine!
DAVID: I've never supported mindless energy as first cause. God is first cause as a designing mind of pure energy. Give me the date and content of the quote you have scissored out of something to create a meaning I have never supported.
Of course you’ve never supported it. The mindless combination is the alternative first cause I keep proposing and repeated on Tuesday 9 October, as you yourself quoted above (now in bold), whereas the straw man alternative you attacked was a “total void” (also bolded), which I have never proposed but which you used to criticize my "irrational circular thinking". You tangled the thread - but it's not worth pursuing.
Evolution: materialism explanation doesn't work
by David Turell , Thursday, October 11, 2018, 15:35 (2234 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Species die! I have never supported “evolution by natural selection”! Natural selection does not explain innovation, it only determines which organs/organisms SURVIVE! I don’t know why you keep trying to disagree with a statement we have agreed on over and over again. And balance of nature does not “provide food for all”. It simply keeps adjusting itself according to which organisms can survive in which environments. As you say, nothing to do with “the advance of life’s evolution”, which depends on innovation.
We agree we do not know why new species appear naturally.
DAVID: I've never supported mindless energy as first cause. God is first cause as a designing mind of pure energy. Give me the date and content of the quote you have scissored out of something to create a meaning I have never supported.dhw: Of course you’ve never supported it. The mindless combination is the alternative first cause I keep proposing and repeated on Tuesday 9 October, as you yourself quoted above (now in bold), whereas the straw man alternative you attacked was a “total void” (also bolded), which I have never proposed but which you used to criticize my "irrational circular thinking". You tangled the thread - but it's not worth pursuing.
Agreed.
Evolution: first animals before the Cambrian
by David Turell , Monday, October 15, 2018, 18:33 (2230 days ago) @ David Turell
Chemical traces of sponge protein production 100-120 million years before the Cambrian:
https://phys.org/news/2018-10-oldest-evidence-animals.html
"Rather than searching for conventional body fossils, the researchers have been tracking molecular signs of animal life, called biomarkers, as far back as 660-635 million years ago during the Neoproterozoic Era. In ancient rocks and oils from Oman, Siberia, and India, they found a steroid compound produced only by sponges, which are among the earliest forms of animal life.
"'Molecular fossils are important for tracking early animals since the first sponges were probably very small, did not contain a skeleton, and did not leave a well-preserved or easily recognizable body fossil record," Zumberge said. "We have been looking for distinctive and stable biomarkers that indicate the existence of sponges and other early animals, rather than single-celled organisms that dominated the earth for billions of years before the dawn of complex, multicellular life."
"The biomarker they identified, a steroid compound named 26-methylstigmastane (26-mes), has a unique structure that is currently only known to be synthesized by certain species of modern sponges called demosponges.
"The work builds from a 2009 study by Love's team, which reported the first compelling biomarker evidence for Neoproterozoic animals from a different steroid biomarker, called 24-isopropylcholestane (24-ipc), from rocks in South Oman. However, the 24-ipc biomarker evidence proved controversial since 24-ipc steroids are not exclusively made by demosponges and can be found in a few modern algae. The finding of the additional and novel 26-mes ancient biomarker, which is unique to demosponges, adds extra confidence that both compounds are fossil biomolecules produced by demosponges on an ancient seafloor.
"The study also provides important new constraints on the groups of modern demosponges capable of producing unique steroid structures, which leave a distinctive biomarker record. The researchers found that within modern demosponges, certain taxonomic groups preferentially produce 26-mes steroids while others produce 24-ipc steroids.
"'The combined Neoproterozoic demosponge sterane record, showing 24-ipc and 26-mes steranes co-occurring in ancient rocks, is unlikely attributed to an isolated branch or extinct stem-group of demosponges," Love said. "Rather, the ability to make such unconventional steroids likely arose deep within the demosponge phylogenetic tree but now encompasses a wide coverage of modern demosponge groups."
Comment: the Cambrian dates from about 540 myo with a marked jump in complexity. The sponges references are very simple and the Edicarans which preceded the Cambrians were not much more complex than the sponges. This research is amazingly exact in its use of biochemistry.
Evolution: development of flying not understood
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 24, 2018, 15:33 (2221 days ago) @ David Turell
Flying close to surface helps:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/flying-close-to-ground-saves-energy
"Flying animals save energy – and lots of it – by flying close to the ground, researchers have found, adding evidence for one of two competing theories of the evolution of flight.
"A group of scientists led by Christoffer Johansson, a biologist at Lund University in Sweden, have demonstrated that Daubenton’s bats (Myotis daubentonii) save 29% of their aerodynamic power through the so-called “ground effect”, suggesting that flight developed as an extension of surface-based activities.
"The ground effect occurs when the land or water below a flying object increases the air pressure beneath its wings, thus reducing the amount of energy needed to stay aloft.
***
"Our measurements show that the ground effect saves animals twice as much energy as models have suggested,” Johansson says.
"The research could shed light on the evolution of flight, which is still a mystery to scientists. One theory, known as trees-down, suggests that animals began flying by jumping through the air between branches and trees. Another theory, known as ground-up, holds that animals began flying first by running and jumping along the ground (or, for insects, along water), and that wings evolved to help elongate the distances thus covered.
"The new research supports the latter theory.
“'This is obviously speculation,” says Johansson, “but if flapping animals save more energy than we previously believed by flying close to the ground, then the ground up theory becomes more probable: animals began to fly by first running and jumping on the ground with flapping precursors to wings.”
"The study points out that flying is the most energy-expensive form of locomotion in the animal kingdom, so any savings would be evolutionarily favoured.
"Many species of bats specialise in flying low, or skimming, over water to feed on insects, which researchers now see is a “sweet spot” of behaviour."
Comment: Certainly flying is a great way to get around, and from an eating standpoint, from the air is a great way to spot prey. Flying is done differently in bats, in birds and in insects indicating it appeared at different times in different ways and represents the concept of 'convergence', which in some minds is another word for design.
Evolution: Darwinist wishful thinking
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 24, 2018, 22:35 (2221 days ago) @ David Turell
They take scant evidence and invent just-so stories to explain evolution when there is no way to know why these compounds were evolved by plants:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/artful-amoeba/magic-mushroom-drug-evolved-to-mess-...
"Normally, you’d expect such a complex and powerful chemical as psilocybin – the magical ingredient -- to be produced by a closely related group of organisms whose common ancestor discovered it once.
"But not in this case. Scores of mushroom species – one even lichenized -- from five different distantly-related families make it. A team of American scientists wondered about that, and had a hunch about why it might be.
"They tested their hunch by, for the first time, identifying the psilocybin-producing genes (there turned out to be five) and comparing the versions found in the various magic mushrooms. And sure enough: the genes shared the same origin. The psilocybin gene cluster had somehow found its way into distantly related species through a process called horizontal gene transfer.
***
"Although mushroom-making fungi, considered sophisticated and complex for the fungal world -- have only rarely been caught sharing DNA this way, the fact that they have made an exception for these genes implies psilocybin is a seriously hot item.
"But why? A better question might be what, exactly, does a coffee bush get out of making caffeine, or a coca plant out of making cocaine? Why do magic mushrooms bother to be magic? They aren’t getting magical trips out of the deal.
David: So far, so good.
"The surprising reality is that the majority of naturally-produced recreational drugs – caffeine, nicotine, cocaine, morphine, and psilocybin – evolved to be, if not quite insecticides, then scramblers of insect brains. The fact that our brains are enjoyably scrambled by them too is sheer coincidence, but also speaks to the uncomfortable truth that your brain is not so different from a cockroach’s as you might like to think. (Of course, you’re not so different from a plant either)
David: Wow! now the so-called evidence:
"A plant has an obvious motive for stockpiling a chemical arsenal: salad bar prevention. But what about mushrooms? The majority of psilocybin-producing mushrooms are either wood or dung decayers. In those environments, they are not only being eaten by insects, but also competing with them for food. Termites are major fungal competitors inside decaying logs, but a variety of other wood- and dung-eating insects compete with fungi for food.
"Psilocybin may help tilt the playing field in the fungus’s favor by causing insects to, I don’t know, maybe blank on what they went in that log for again? Another serotonin antagonist to a receptor called 5HT-2A causes Drosophila fruit flies to somehow neglect to eat the fruit they’re sitting on. Whatever they're experiencing, though, is unlikely to be fun. Insects lack the dopamine-based reward systems also triggered by many of the drugs that makes them so pleasurable and addictive to humans (although psilocybin acts on serotonin receptors and is non-addictive). (my bold)
"A plant has an obvious motive for stockpiling a chemical arsenal: salad bar prevention. But what about mushrooms? The majority of psilocybin-producing mushrooms are either wood or dung decayers. In those environments, they are not only being eaten by insects, but also competing with them for food. Termites are major fungal competitors inside decaying logs, but a variety of other wood- and dung-eating insects compete with fungi for food.
Psilocybin may help tilt the playing field in the fungus’s favor by causing insects to, I don’t know, maybe blank on what they went in that log for again? Another serotonin antagonist to a receptor called 5HT-2A causes Drosophila fruit flies to somehow neglect to eat the fruit they’re sitting on. Whatever they're experiencing, though, is unlikely to be fun. Insects lack the dopamine-based reward systems also triggered by many of the drugs that makes them so pleasurable and addictive to humans (although psilocybin acts on serotonin receptors and is non-addictive). (my bold)
***
"In the process of searching for the psilocybin-producing genes, the scientists made another discovery: there was less variation in the gene content of distantly-related wood decay fungi than between decay fungi and their close relatives in other habitats. The common thread between wood and dung decaying fungi may be the shared interest in attacking tough plant fibers like lignin and in repelling the insects that compete with them. The fact that their shared environment seems to be a stronger driver of gene content than shared ancestry is quite stunning, I think."
Comment: This writer makes evolution as purposeful as we are, a chance mechanism which can use purposeful changes to advance the newer complexities. All dream-like suppositions without any proof, just stretched facts beyond recognition.
Evolution: Darwinist wishful thinking
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Thursday, October 25, 2018, 00:24 (2221 days ago) @ David Turell
David's Comment: This writer makes evolution as purposeful as we are, a chance mechanism which can use purposeful changes to advance the newer complexities. All dream-like suppositions without any proof, just stretched facts beyond recognition.
Not to mention that they are also elevating Fungi like they intentionally and purposefully pursue certain courses of action. Interestingly enough, my prediction has once again proved accurate. Environment and environmental role seem to be more indicative of genetic make-up than so-called ancestry.
--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: development of flying not understood
by dhw, Thursday, October 25, 2018, 11:08 (2221 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Flying is done differently in bats, in birds and in insects indicating it appeared at different times in different ways and represents the concept of 'convergence', which in some minds is another word for design.
In other minds, convergence simply means that different organisms find similar solutions when faced with similar problems.
Evolution: development of flying not understood
by David Turell , Thursday, October 25, 2018, 15:12 (2220 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Flying is done differently in bats, in birds and in insects indicating it appeared at different times in different ways and represents the concept of 'convergence', which in some minds is another word for design.
dhw: In other minds, convergence simply means that different organisms find similar solutions when faced with similar problems.
It should be noted that flying is not a problem unless for some reason it is attempted. The issue is: why attempt it when most animals find enough to eat on land or ocean?
Evolution: development of the elephant trunk
by David Turell , Thursday, October 25, 2018, 18:38 (2220 days ago) @ David Turell
Obviously if tusks get so long that the mouth cannot reach the ground, then a trunk needs to be developed to get food into the mouth, so the elephant trunk is a marvelous structure, but the issue, as in whales, is why bother to cause the problem in the first place?:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/elephant-trunks-derive-power-and-finesse-by-simulati...
"Researchers find that an elephant’s trunk forms a kind of joint to pick up small pieces of food.
"A team of researchers led by Jianing Wu at the Georgia Institute of Technology, Georgia, USA, videoed an African elephant (Loxodonta africana) eating small pieces of food and measured the force its trunk exerted throughout the exercise. They found that the animal swept the food into piles and then formed a joint to pick up as much as possible at once.
“'Forming joints may help reduce the energy required to reach for and grab food items, a task they perform for 18 hours every day,” the researchers write in the Journal of the Royal Society Interface.
***
"Wu and colleagues found that elephants form a sort of joint at the trunk so it could clamp several bits together.
“'Although the elephant trunk lacks bones, the formation of a joint mimics a common vertebrate strategy to reach out and grab objects,” the researchers note.
"Joints allow structures such as human limbs degrees of freedom, allowing them to reach a greater range of points in space. They also can provide leverage.
“This is why appendages without bones, such as the elephant trunk and octopus arm, have both demonstrated the formation of joints,” the researchers write.
“'The octopus forms a joint like the elbow only when retrieving food. Our study shows that the use of joints might be more common than once thought.”
***
“'Such researchers have turned to snakes, octopus and elephants for inspiration. However, even among these animals, the elephant stands out because the trunk can apply the greatest forces.”
Indeed, the elephant’s trunk is the largest hydrostat – a type of boneless muscular organ – on land, weighing 150 kilograms. That weight accounts for some of the force it can exert.
“'Wild elephants may still apply the strategies we observed if they need to press downward with their trunk while feeding,” the authors conclude.
“'To remove the bark from a tree, vertical forces are required, and its possible the elephant may form joints for this task. Now that we have observed the formation of joints, future work will determine how often elephants use this strategy.'”
Comment: I thought in theory evolution was to seek the best way to survive. then as I've noted why bother with this degree of complexity?
To see elephant evolution see this site:
http://www.himandus.net/elefunteria/library/science+nature/evolution.html
"Not every animal from the book is included and some are included from other sources. The book chart specifically identifies several evolutionary branches of ancestral proboscidians as unproven though widely accepted. Those are marked above with [**].
"It should be recognized that the term 'ancestral proboscidians' refers to unknown and undocumented creatures which are assumed to have existed and evolved into various proboscidians which left fossil traces."
Comment: the evolutionary history contains suppositions, a usual Darwin technique.
What they need to eat:
https://www.liveanimalslist.com/mammals/what-elephants-eat-and-drink.php
"To support its large size it needs huge amounts of food. An adult elephant eats about 150 kg (300 lb) of grass, leaves, twigs and fruit each day. Tree bark is the favourite food source of elephants. To supplement the diet, elephants will dig up earth to obtain salt and minerals. The tusks are used to churn the ground."
Comment: Wow!
Evolution: development of the elephant trunk
by dhw, Friday, October 26, 2018, 11:28 (2220 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: I thought in theory evolution was to seek the best way to survive. then as I've noted why bother with this degree of complexity?
I thought that in Turellian theory, your God’s prime purpose was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. So why bother with this degree of complexity?
QUOTE: "It should be recognized that the term 'ancestral proboscidians' refers to unknown and undocumented creatures which are assumed to have existed and evolved into various proboscidians which left fossil traces."
DAVID: the evolutionary history contains suppositions, a usual Darwin technique.
All attempted explanations of speciation contain suppositions. You suppose the existence of a God and of a divine 3.8-billion-year computer programme for all undabbled innovations, lifestyles and natural wonders. The pot calls the kettle black – a usual Turell technique.
Evolution: development of the elephant trunk
by David Turell , Friday, October 26, 2018, 15:16 (2219 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: I thought in theory evolution was to seek the best way to survive. then as I've noted why bother with this degree of complexity?
dhw: I thought that in Turellian theory, your God’s prime purpose was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. So why bother with this degree of complexity?
Exactly , whales and elephants are overly complex, but fill the need for diversity and a balance of nature.
QUOTE: "It should be recognized that the term 'ancestral proboscidians' refers to unknown and undocumented creatures which are assumed to have existed and evolved into various proboscidians which left fossil traces."DAVID: the evolutionary history contains suppositions, a usual Darwin technique.
dhw: All attempted explanations of speciation contain suppositions. You suppose the existence of a God and of a divine 3.8-billion-year computer programme for all undabbled innovations, lifestyles and natural wonders. The pot calls the kettle black – a usual Turell technique.
You know full well that Darwin is all untrue supposition and attack my theories instead of accepting the truth about Darwin .
Evolution: development of the elephant trunk
by dhw, Saturday, October 27, 2018, 09:34 (2219 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: I thought in theory evolution was to seek the best way to survive. then as I've noted why bother with this degree of complexity?
dhw: I thought that in Turellian theory, your God’s prime purpose was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. So why bother with this degree of complexity?
DAVID: Exactly, whales and elephants are overly complex, but fill the need for diversity and a balance of nature.
There was no “need” for diversity, since bacteria have done very nicely without it, and if whales and elephants did not exist, or went extinct, you would simply have a different balance of nature.
QUOTE: "It should be recognized that the term 'ancestral proboscidians' refers to unknown and undocumented creatures which are assumed to have existed and evolved into various proboscidians which left fossil traces."
DAVID: the evolutionary history contains suppositions, a usual Darwin technique.
dhw: All attempted explanations of speciation contain suppositions. You suppose the existence of a God and of a divine 3.8-billion-year computer programme for all undabbled innovations, lifestyles and natural wonders. The pot calls the kettle black – a usual Turell technique.
DAVID: You know full well that Darwin is all untrue supposition and attack my theories instead of accepting the truth about Darwin.
“All untrue”? No, I don’t know that at all, and nor do you, since you believe in common descent. You and I both reject Darwin’s random mutations and gradualism, but that does not, in my view, lend any credibility to your own theory that 3.8 billion years ago your God preprogrammed every undabbled innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder, although his prime purpose was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. But you would rather belittle Darwin than acknowledge that your own theory is full of unproven and unprovable suppositions.
Evolution: development of the elephant trunk
by David Turell , Saturday, October 27, 2018, 19:28 (2218 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: I thought in theory evolution was to seek the best way to survive. then as I've noted why bother with this degree of complexity?
dhw: I thought that in Turellian theory, your God’s prime purpose was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. So why bother with this degree of complexity?
DAVID: Exactly, whales and elephants are overly complex, but fill the need for diversity and a balance of nature.
There was no “need” for diversity, since bacteria have done very nicely without it, and if whales and elephants did not exist, or went extinct, you would simply have a different balance of nature.
QUOTE: "It should be recognized that the term 'ancestral proboscidians' refers to unknown and undocumented creatures which are assumed to have existed and evolved into various proboscidians which left fossil traces."
DAVID: the evolutionary history contains suppositions, a usual Darwin technique.
dhw: All attempted explanations of speciation contain suppositions. You suppose the existence of a God and of a divine 3.8-billion-year computer programme for all undabbled innovations, lifestyles and natural wonders. The pot calls the kettle black – a usual Turell technique.
DAVID: You know full well that Darwin is all untrue supposition and attack my theories instead of accepting the truth about Darwin.
dhw: “All untrue”? No, I don’t know that at all, and nor do you, since you believe in common descent. You and I both reject Darwin’s random mutations and gradualism, but that does not, in my view, lend any credibility to your own theory that 3.8 billion years ago your God preprogrammed every undabbled innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder, although his prime purpose was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. But you would rather belittle Darwin than acknowledge that your own theory is full of unproven and unprovable suppositions.
All that is left of Darwin is common descent other than those who use his 'Descent of Man' to promote racism.
Evolution: development of the elephant trunk
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Monday, October 29, 2018, 05:30 (2217 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: “All untrue”? No, I don’t know that at all, and nor do you, since you believe in common descent. You and I both reject Darwin’s random mutations and gradualism, but that does not, in my view, lend any credibility to your own theory that 3.8 billion years ago your God preprogrammed every undabbled innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder, although his prime purpose was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. But you would rather belittle Darwin than acknowledge that your own theory is full of unproven and unprovable suppositions.
What would?
--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: development of the elephant trunk
by dhw, Monday, October 29, 2018, 12:33 (2216 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
dhw: (to David) “All untrue”? No, I don’t know that at all, and nor do you, since you believe in common descent. You and I both reject Darwin’s random mutations and gradualism, but that does not, in my view, lend any credibility to your own theory that 3.8 billion years ago your God preprogrammed every undabbled innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder, although his prime purpose was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. But you would rather belittle Darwin than acknowledge that your own theory is full of unproven and unprovable suppositions.
TONY: What would?
A fair question, and I suppose it would have to be some kind of revelation. But you have ignored the end of the sentence you have bolded, which draws attention to what in my view is the sheer illogicality of having billions of organisms extant and extinct geared to the production of a single organ.
Evolution: development of the elephant trunk
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Monday, October 29, 2018, 16:53 (2216 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: (to David) “All untrue”? No, I don’t know that at all, and nor do you, since you believe in common descent. You and I both reject Darwin’s random mutations and gradualism, but that does not, in my view, lend any credibility to your own theory that 3.8 billion years ago your God preprogrammed every undabbled innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder, although his prime purpose was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. But you would rather belittle Darwin than acknowledge that your own theory is full of unproven and unprovable suppositions.
TONY: What would?
DHW: A fair question, and I suppose it would have to be some kind of revelation. But you have ignored the end of the sentence you have bolded, which draws attention to what in my view is the sheer illogicality of having billions of organisms extant and extinct geared to the production of a single organ.
I should point out that asking you a question about one part of your statement does not indicate that another part of your statement was ignored, and I have never not acknowledged that it is impossible to prove or know God in an objective, scientific manner.
--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Evolution: development of the elephant trunk
by David Turell , Monday, October 29, 2018, 21:24 (2216 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
dhw: (to David) “All untrue”? No, I don’t know that at all, and nor do you, since you believe in common descent. You and I both reject Darwin’s random mutations and gradualism, but that does not, in my view, lend any credibility to your own theory that 3.8 billion years ago your God preprogrammed every undabbled innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder, although his prime purpose was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. But you would rather belittle Darwin than acknowledge that your own theory is full of unproven and unprovable suppositions.
TONY: What would?
DHW: A fair question, and I suppose it would have to be some kind of revelation. But you have ignored the end of the sentence you have bolded, which draws attention to what in my view is the sheer illogicality of having billions of organisms extant and extinct geared to the production of a single organ.
Tony:I should point out that asking you a question about one part of your statement does not indicate that another part of your statement was ignored, and I have never not acknowledged that it is impossible to prove or know God in an objective, scientific manner.
And I have commented that referring to the brain alone belittles my theory that hu mans were/are the goal.
Evolution: development of the elephant trunk
by dhw, Tuesday, October 30, 2018, 08:54 (2216 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
dhw: (to David) “All untrue”? No, I don’t know that at all, and nor do you, since you believe in common descent. You and I both reject Darwin’s random mutations and gradualism, but that does not, in my view, lend any credibility to your own theory that 3.8 billion years ago your God preprogrammed every undabbled innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder, although his prime purpose was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. But you would rather belittle Darwin than acknowledge that your own theory is full of unproven and unprovable suppositions.
TONY: What would?
DHW: A fair question, and I suppose it would have to be some kind of revelation. But you have ignored the end of the sentence you have bolded, which draws attention to what in my view is the sheer illogicality of having billions of organisms extant and extinct geared to the production of a single organ.
TONY: I should point out that asking you a question about one part of your statement does not indicate that another part of your statement was ignored, and I have never not acknowledged that it is impossible to prove or know God in an objective, scientific manner.
Agreed. I was only pointing out the context of my comment, which was what I regard as the illogicality of David’s anthropocentric interpretation of evolution. I suppose I was hoping you might add your own comment on his hypothesis!
DAVID: A twisted version of my theory. The goal is humans, the big brain an important part of that. Humans were/are the goal and we are here, not at all from Darwin's reasoning about how evolution works.
The goal is humans, and that is why your God invented the elephant’s trunk. Ah, but we must also remember, apparently, that God’s logic is not ours.
Evolution: development of the elephant trunk
by David Turell , Monday, October 29, 2018, 21:17 (2216 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: (to David) “All untrue”? No, I don’t know that at all, and nor do you, since you believe in common descent. You and I both reject Darwin’s random mutations and gradualism, but that does not, in my view, lend any credibility to your own theory that 3.8 billion years ago your God preprogrammed every undabbled innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder, although his prime purpose was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens. But you would rather belittle Darwin than acknowledge that your own theory is full of unproven and unprovable suppositions.
TONY: What would?
dhw: A fair question, and I suppose it would have to be some kind of revelation. But you have ignored the end of the sentence you have bolded, which draws attention to what in my view is the sheer illogicality of having billions of organisms extant and extinct geared to the production of a single organ.
A twisted version of my theory. The goal is humans, the big brain an important part of that. Humans were/are the goal and we are here, not at all from Darwin's reasoning about how evolution works..
Evolution: development of the elephant trunk
by David Turell , Tuesday, July 19, 2022, 23:26 (857 days ago) @ David Turell
Skin on top and bottom differ:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/skin-helps-explain-why-elephant-trunks-are-so...
"The top side of an elephant’s trunk is more pliable and can stretch 15 percent farther than the underside of the trunk, according to a new paper published Monday in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
"The findings not only contribute to the scientific understanding of trunk biomechanics, which hadn’t received much attention during the 20th century
***
"But when they took a closer look, they realized elephant appendages were asymmetrical. To analyze elephant trunks, researchers challenged two African savanna elephants—one male, one female—to reach for bran cubes and apples outside of their enclosure at Zoo Atlanta.
"Researchers filmed the elephants using a high-speed camera, then analyzed the footage. When they took a closer look, they realized the top and bottom of the trunks were moving differently. At first, they thought this was an error, so they stretched out frozen skin samples from an elephant who had died at the zoo. This test confirmed that the top of the trunk was, indeed, more flexible and could stretch farther than the bottom. They also discovered that the top skin is folded, while the bottom skin is wrinkled.
"'Flexible skin folds are the elephant's innovation," David Hu, a mechanical engineer at Georgia Tech and one of the study’s authors, says in a statement. "They protect the dorsal section and make it easier for the elephant to reach downward, the most common gripping style when picking up items.'"
Comment: it is always surprising when scientists are amazed at how evolution produced perfect designs, as in the elephant trunk. Remember Velcro was first designed in nature.
Evolution: development of flying not understood
by dhw, Friday, October 26, 2018, 11:07 (2220 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Flying is done differently in bats, in birds and in insects indicating it appeared at different times in different ways and represents the concept of 'convergence', which in some minds is another word for design.
dhw: In other minds, convergence simply means that different organisms find similar solutions when faced with similar problems.
DAVID: It should be noted that flying is not a problem unless for some reason it is attempted. The issue is: why attempt it when most animals find enough to eat on land or ocean?
So what is your answer? Your God preprogrammed/dabbled flight because without it he could not have fulfilled his prime purpose, which was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens? Or could it be that all these organisms found that flight improved their chances of survival?
Evolution: development of flying not understood
by David Turell , Friday, October 26, 2018, 14:58 (2219 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Flying is done differently in bats, in birds and in insects indicating it appeared at different times in different ways and represents the concept of 'convergence', which in some minds is another word for design.
dhw: In other minds, convergence simply means that different organisms find similar solutions when faced with similar problems.
DAVID: It should be noted that flying is not a problem unless for some reason it is attempted. The issue is: why attempt it when most animals find enough to eat on land or ocean?
dhw: So what is your answer? Your God preprogrammed/dabbled flight because without it he could not have fulfilled his prime purpose, which was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens? Or could it be that all these organisms found that flight improved their chances of survival?
You keep returning to Darwin and the competition for survival, which is an unproven theory. Balance of nature is a more likely cause.
Evolution: development of flying not understood
by dhw, Saturday, October 27, 2018, 09:26 (2219 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: It should be noted that flying is not a problem unless for some reason it is attempted. The issue is: why attempt it when most animals find enough to eat on land or ocean?
dhw: So what is your answer? Your God preprogrammed/dabbled flight because without it he could not have fulfilled his prime purpose, which was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens? Or could it be that all these organisms found that flight improved their chances of survival?
DAVID: You keep returning to Darwin and the competition for survival, which is an unproven theory. Balance of nature is a more likely cause.
You seem to think that the word “Darwin” automatically disqualifies an argument! Do you not think that an innovation which improves the chances of survival is likely to catch on? What proof do you have for your own theory that your God preprogrammed flight 3.8 billion years ago, or popped in to teach birds, bats and insects to fly? Balance of nature, as you now acknowledge, means nothing more than the fact that if organisms and econiches are not “balanced”, they die. How does that explain the invention of flight?
Evolution: development of flying not understood
by David Turell , Saturday, October 27, 2018, 19:15 (2218 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: It should be noted that flying is not a problem unless for some reason it is attempted. The issue is: why attempt it when most animals find enough to eat on land or ocean?
dhw: So what is your answer? Your God preprogrammed/dabbled flight because without it he could not have fulfilled his prime purpose, which was to produce the brain of Homo sapiens? Or could it be that all these organisms found that flight improved their chances of survival?
DAVID: You keep returning to Darwin and the competition for survival, which is an unproven theory. Balance of nature is a more likely cause.
dhw: You seem to think that the word “Darwin” automatically disqualifies an argument! Do you not think that an innovation which improves the chances of survival is likely to catch on? What proof do you have for your own theory that your God preprogrammed flight 3.8 billion years ago, or popped in to teach birds, bats and insects to fly? Balance of nature, as you now acknowledge, means nothing more than the fact that if organisms and econiches are not “balanced”, they die. How does that explain the invention of flight?
Very obvious: Flying animals add to the diversity for a balance of nature.
Evolution: marine snow econiche
by David Turell , Monday, December 03, 2018, 19:03 (2181 days ago) @ David Turell
T he econiche in the ocean involves death and decomposing bodies reaching the bottom of oceans to supply food for bottom dwellers:
https://phys.org/news/2018-12-pulses-carbon-deep-sea-captured.html
"More than two miles below the ocean's surface, microbes, worms, fishes, and other creatures great and small thrive. They rely on the transport of dead and decaying matter from the surface (marine snow) for food at these dark depths.
"Up near the sea surface, carbon dioxide from the atmosphere is incorporated in the bodies of microscopic algae and the animals that eat them. When they die, these organisms sink to the depths, carrying carbon with them.
"This supply of carbon to the deep sea isn't steady. At times, months' to years' worth of marine snow falls to the abyss during very short "pulse" events.
***
"The PNAS study focused on six periods between 2011 and 2017 when large amounts of marine snow reached sediment traps at Station M. During these episodic pulse events, four times more carbon reached the deep sea each day, in comparison to non-pulse days.
"Compared to the first 20 years of the time-series, pulse events became more prevalent after 2011. Of the total carbon that reached the sediment traps at 3,400 meters depth from 2011 to 2017, over 40 percent arrived during the pulse events.
***
"These events are becoming a much bigger part of the carbon cycle," said Christine Huffard, a marine biologist at MBARI and co-author of the study. In fact, since these pulse events have become larger and more frequent, researchers have had to double the size of the collection cups used in their sediment traps.
"The pulses of food (and carbon) to the deep sea are not currently taken into account in global climate models. The "Martin curve" formula, which is based on sea-surface conditions such as water temperature, is widely used to estimate how much carbon reaches the deep sea.
"Huffard and her coauthors found that the Martin curve matched their data well on non-pulse days, but it underestimated the amount of carbon arriving during pulse events by 80 percent.
"'In total the Martin curve estimated only half the deep-sea carbon that we measured," said Huffard."
Comment: Surprise! Mammals in the ocean add to the bottom food supply as they die and decompose. Another example of how delicate econiches are set up to provide food supply. The niches are part of God's design for life to survive and evolve over long stretches of time. I'm sorry dhw can't see the logic.
Evolution: plankton and the ocean/carbon cycle
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 02, 2019, 20:12 (1878 days ago) @ David Turell
An excellent article on the contribution of plankton to evolution and ocean's carbon cycle environment:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-jurassic-plankton-stole-control-of-the-oceans-chemis...
"... researchers largely take it for granted that ecological relationships are the primary force of evolution.
***
"In the oceans, for example, ecological success was closely tied to the inanimate forces steering ocean chemistry until only about 170 million years ago.
***
"Between the Ordovician period, about 485 million years ago, and the early Jurassic, about 170 million years ago, there was abundant volcanic activity, which led to the extinction of many, many marine species. During that time, organisms thrived or died mostly based on factors beyond their control...But since the middle of the Jurassic, that hasn’t really been the case.
***
"That’s because layers of dead carbonate organisms on the seafloor can dissolve when the seawater pH starts to drop, and the released carbonate ions then raise the pH again. Places where there is an abundance of dead carbonate organisms have always acted as a buffer to stabilize the ocean’s chemistry. But before these calcifying plankton appeared, this carbonate buffer was restricted to shallow continental shelves. There simply wasn’t enough chalky floor space to buffer against the extreme changes in acidity from volcanoes or other geological events.
"Then the calcifying plankton took over. Nowadays, you’d be hard-pressed to find ocean waters less than 100 meters deep that don’t contain calcifying plankton. Despite their teeny size, they may account for nearly 12% of the total biomass in the oceans. And they’ve completely altered the way carbon moves around the planet. About 80% of the carbon-containing rocks on Earth are derived from the remains of these plankton and other marine calcifiers — even though by mass, these plankton may account for less than 0.2% of Earth’s carbon-containing life.
“'All of a sudden you have all these little teeny tiny carbonate organisms that together add up to this huge carbonate sink that draws a ton of calcium carbonate out of the ocean, and as is articulated nicely in the paper, changes the dynamics of where that carbonate is deposited,” said Rowan Martindale, a paleoecologist at the University of Texas, Austin. “And so it really fundamentally changes how the ocean buffering capacity works.”
***
"And that’s exactly what he and his team saw — until 170 million years ago, when calcifying plankton became widespread. Then the organisms abruptly decoupled from fluctuations in the temperature and magnesium levels, and aragonite organisms began to dominate despite unfavorable conditions.
"The researchers weren’t able to demonstrate conclusively that the plankton caused this shift, but they argued that simply by existing — and dying — in such huge numbers in deeper waters, these creatures created a deep reserve of carbonate that could then dissolve to buffer ocean chemistry whenever environmental changes pushed seawater to become more acidic.
"As Eichenseer and his co-authors noted in the paper, the ocean’s calcium cycle wasn’t the only thing this explosion in calcifying plankton would have changed: Because of knock-on effects, virtually the entire marine ecosystem would have changed. Dying plankton drop toward the sea bottom in a steady rain; their decomposition is a process that depletes seawater of dissolved oxygen. But because calcifying plankton are relatively heavy, they sink into the depths before they fully decompose, leaving more oxygen in shallow waters. That change might have increased the range of organisms that could live along continental shelves and made them less vulnerable to other environmental changes.
***
"Eichenseer also notes that the plankton didn’t exactly rewrite the laws of evolution — they just tipped the balance that made biotic interactions like competition and predation more important. “Earth’s life systems stabilized. And these environmental perturbations, they still happened, but life was prepared.'”
Comment: It seems to me if God is in charge, He introduced plankton to make this shift in ocean characteristics, allowing evolution to advance.
Evolution: development of flying not understood
by David Turell , Wednesday, August 03, 2022, 18:37 (842 days ago) @ David Turell
A new biomechanical study:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/geometric-analysis-reveals-how-birds-mastered-flight-202...
“Evolution has created a far more complicated flying device than we have ever been able to engineer,” said Samik Bhattacharya, an assistant professor in the experimental fluid mechanics lab at the University of Central Florida. The reasons why today’s aircraft can’t match avian maneuverability aren’t simply a matter of engineering. Although birds have been meticulously observed throughout history and have inspired designs for flying machines by Leonardo da Vinci and others through the centuries, the biomechanics that make birds’ maneuverability possible have largely been a mystery.
A landmark study published last March in Nature, however, has started to change that. For her doctoral research at the University of Michigan, Christina Harvey and her colleagues found that most birds can morph their wings mid-flight to flip back and forth between flying smoothly like a passenger plane and flying acrobatically like a fighter jet. Their work makes it clear that birds can completely alter both the aerodynamic characteristics that govern how air moves over their wings and the inertial characteristics of their bodies that determine how they tumble through the air to complete fast maneuvers.
***
The 2001 research showed that inherent stability played a bigger part in the flight of birds than was generally believed.
***
They wrote a novel modeling program that represented different types of wings, bones, muscles, skin and feathers as combinations of hundreds of geometric shapes. The software allowed them to calculate relevant characteristics such as the center of gravity and the “neutral point” that is the aerodynamic center of the bird in flight. They then determined those properties for each bird with its wings configured in a variety of shapes.
To quantify each bird’s stability and maneuverability, they calculated an aerodynamic factor called the static margin, the distance between its center of gravity and its neutral point relative to the dimensions of the wing. If a bird’s neutral point was behind its center of gravity, they considered the bird to be inherently stable, meaning that the flying bird would naturally return to its original flight path if pushed off balance. If the neutral point was in front of the center of gravity, then the bird was unstable and would be pushed further from the position it was in — which is exactly what must happen for a bird to be able to do a breathtaking maneuver.
***
birds, unlike airplanes, can move their wings and shift their body postures, thereby altering their static margins. Harvey and her team therefore also evaluated how each birds’ inherent stability changed in different wing configurations.
***
Four species were completely stable, and 17 species — including swifts and pigeons — could switch between stable and unstable flight by morphing their wings. “Really, what we’re seeing is these birds being able to shift between that kind of more fighter-jet-like style and a more passenger-jet-like style,” Harvey said.
Further mathematical modeling by her team suggested that rather than enhancing birds’ instability, evolution has been preserving their potential for both stability and instability. In all the studied birds, Harvey’s team found evidence that selection pressures were simultaneously maintaining static margins that enabled both. As a result, birds have the ability to shift from a stable mode to an unstable one and back, changing their flight properties as needed.
Comment: birds come with very specialized wing shape morphing abilities. When a young bird fledges, it is learning to use these provided abilities. Such complexity requires a knowledgeable designer. Current bird Flight is not just jumping into the air and a stepwise evolutionary development is not possible.
Evolution: first life fossils on Earth
by David Turell , Friday, November 11, 2022, 00:06 (743 days ago) @ David Turell
Stromatolites in Australia:
https://www.livescience.com/oldest-stromatolites-australia?utm_campaign=368B3745-DDE0-4...
"Layered rocks in Western Australia are some of Earth's earliest known life, according to a new study.
"The fossils in question are stromatolites, layered rocks that are formed by the excretions of photosynthetic microbes. The oldest stromatolites that scientists agree were made by living organisms date back 3.43 billion years, but there are older specimens, too. In the Dresser Formation of Western Australia, stromatolites dating back 3.48 billion years have been found.
"However, billions of years have wiped away traces of organic matter in these older stromatolites, raising questions about whether they were really formed by microbes or whether they might have been made by other geological processes.
"'We were able to find certain specific microstructures within particular layers of these rocks that are strongly indicative of biological processes," said Keyron Hickman-Lewis(opens in new tab), a paleontologist at the Natural History Museum in London, who led the research.
***
"Hickman-Lewis and his team examined Western Australian stromatolites first discovered in 2000 by study co-author Frances Westall(opens in new tab) at the National Center for Scientific Research (CNRS) in France. They used a variety of high-resolution 2D and 3D imaging techniques in order to peer into the layers of the stromatolite at a fine scale.
:What they saw hinted at biological growth in all its messy glory. The researchers observed uneven layers, including little dome shapes that are indicative of photosynthesis, since microbes with the most access to the sun will grow more vigorously than those not as high in the structure. They also saw columnar structures that are typical in modern stromatolites, which are still found in a few locations around the globe.
"Microbial mats give you layers that are uneven in their thickness and tend to be wrinkly or crinkly or go up and down on very small spatial scales," said Linda Kah(opens in new tab), a sedimentologist and geochemist at the University of Tennessee who was not involved in the new study. Putting all the structural clues together, she told Live Science, "you end up with what looks like the characteristics of a microbial mat."
***
"The evidence that the Dresser Formation stromatolites are signs of ancient life doesn't make them the oldest life on the planet. That (possible) honor may go to stromatolites found in 3.7 billion-year-old rock in Greenland, or possibly to microfossils from Canada that might be as old as 4.29 billion years. It's very difficult to distinguish biological life from non-organic processes in these very old rocks, however, so these finds and others from a similar timeframe are controversial.
"Based on the minerals in the stromatolites, the Western Australia microbial mats probably formed in a shallow lagoon fed by hydrothermal vents that was also connected to the ocean, the researchers reported Nov. 4 .
Comment: We've been here before. If any of these fossil spots are real life, it makes the point that life did not take long to appear after the Earth formed and was going through constant bombardment in what is called Earth's 'Hadean period'. It looks as if life was pre-ordained to appear. Not by chance.
Evolution: only genetics can design a bush of life
by David Turell , Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 18:57 (1976 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
There is great difficulty in staying with the Linnaeus classification based only only body appearance:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/phyla-and-other-flawed-taxonomic-categories-vex-biologis...
"The problem that Hejnol sees with the whole system is that the ranks don’t mean anything specific or uniform across all groups of life. Even though species is arguably the most important rank across multiple fields of biology, there are dozens of species concepts in use — and biologists working with different groups of organisms can’t seem to agree on just one. You might think that the other end of the hierarchy would be more settled, but it wasn’t so long ago that domains simply didn’t exist — the three domains we use today (Archaea, Bacteria and Eucarya) were only proposed in 1990. At that time, the top rank was kingdom, and there were five of those; now there are at least six, though some say there should be as many as 32. Similar ambiguities plague all the taxonomic ranks in between — even those often considered to be major, distinct and unambiguous, like phyla.
***
"Over time, the number of animal phyla has expanded to about 35. Yet there has never been a solid definition for what makes a group a phylum as opposed to a subphylum, a class or any other taxonomic rank. There have been many arguments about whether groups like vertebrates or nematodes are distinctive enough to be their own phyla, or whether phyla like arthropods, tardigrades, velvet worms and annelids should be lumped in with others (as they were in Haeckel’s day).
***
"But perhaps a bigger problem than the artificiality of the boundaries between phyla is that they also tell us little about the range in diversity within a phylum. Some, like the phylum Placozoa, have almost no morphological diversity: All placozoans look so much alike that researchers haven’t yet decided whether there are only a handful of species or more than a hundred of them.
***
"Even if phyla were defined on the basis of evolutionary timing, deciding which point in the evolutionary process to use would still be arbitrary and anthropogenic. “If you want to be consistent,” Jenner said, each rank would have to be tied to an evolutionary split and would contain only sister groups — so there would be two phyla, and then two subphyla from each of them, and so on. But that’s impractical too, according to Jenner, because it would mean that everything that isn’t a sponge belongs in one phylum. “Nobody would say that’s a good idea.”
***
"... searching for the unique characteristics that define Linnaean ranks is “wrong evolutionary thinking.” Hejnol and his colleagues not only found flaws in the statistical analyses used in that study, but also discovered a more fundamental error: the conflation of current patterns with the processes that led to them. Notable differences between individual species within phyla are to be expected because each lineage developed independently over hundreds of millions of years. That tells us almost nothing, though, about how the lineages originally split.
***
"In the end, there simply seem to be no objective, consistent criteria by which to define a phylum — or any other rank, for that matter. “So far, all explanations of what a phylum is have badly failed,” Hejnol said. “This is not a scientific entity which we can use, or should continue to use, when we communicate with each other.”
***
"Scientists can usually sidestep the problems with taxonomic rankings by separating discussions about how organisms evolved from arguments about how to name or classify them. “When you’re doing evolution, you’re doing evolution. And when you’re doing systematics and taxonomy, that’s a different thing,” he said. That separation may be awkward, but “it’s clunky because life is clunky.'”
Comment: I still feel this is the wrong approach. Use genetic comparisons as previously proposed. God made a complex bush obviously to purposely to create the necessary econiches for a food supply to finally reach primates and then humans over 3.8 billion years. God chose the entirety of the evolutionary process of creation.
Evolution: ancient sulfur-eating bacteria
by David Turell , Friday, February 08, 2019, 18:46 (2114 days ago) @ David Turell
A good explanation how studies of isotopes that have been left by early life show how they lived on energy from sulfur and other mineral sources, and not from eating each other:
https://phys.org/news/2019-02-life-earth-billion-years.html
"Microbial metabolism is recorded in billions of years of sulfur isotope ratios that agree with this study's predictions, suggesting that life flourished in the ancient oceans. Using this data, scientists can more deeply link the geochemical record with cellular states and ecology.
***
" Presently, the oldest evidence of microbial life on Earth comes to us in the form of stable isotopes. The chemical elements charted on the periodic table are defined by the number of protons in their nuclei. For example, hydrogen atoms have one proton, helium atoms have two, carbon atoms contain six. In addition to protons, most atomic nuclei also contain neutrons, which are about as heavy as protons, but which don't bear an electric charge. Atoms that contain the same number of protons, but variable numbers of neutrons, are known as isotopes. While many isotopes are radioactive and thus decay into other elements, some do not undergo such reactions; these are known as "stable" isotopes. For example, the stable isotopes of carbon include carbon 12 (written as 12C for short, with 6 protons and 6 neutrons) and carbon 13 (13C, with 6 protons and 7 neutrons).
"All living things, including humans, "eat and excrete." That is to say, they take in food and expel waste. Microbes often eat simple compounds made available by the environment. For example, some are able to take in carbon dioxide (CO2) as a carbon source to build their own cells. Naturally occurring CO2 has a fairly constant ratio of 12C to 13C. However, 12CO2 is about 2 percent lighter than 13CO2, so 12CO2 molecules diffuse and react slightly faster, and thus the microbes themselves become "isotopically light," containing more 12C than 13C, and when they die and leave their remains in the fossil record, their stable isotopic signature remains, and is measurable. The isotopic composition, or "signature," of such processes can be very specific to the microbes that produce them.
"Besides carbon, there are other chemical elements essential for living things. For example, sulfur, with 16 protons, has three naturally abundant stable isotopes, 32S (with 16 neutrons), 33S (with 17 neutrons) and 34S (with 18 neutrons). Sulfur isotope patterns left behind by microbes thus record the history of biological metabolism based on sulfur-containing compounds back to around 3.5 billion years ago.
"Hundreds of previous studies have examined wide variations in ancient and contemporary sulfur isotope ratios resulting from sulfate (a naturally occurring sulfur compound bonded to four oxygen atoms) metabolism. Many microbes are able to use sulfate as a fuel, and in the process excrete sulfide, another sulfur compound (Figure 1). The sulfide "waste" of ancient microbial metabolism is then stored in the geological record, and its isotope ratios can be measured by analyzing minerals such as the FeS2 mineral pyrite.
"This new study reveals a primary biological control step in microbial sulfur metabolism, and clarifies which cellular states lead to which types of sulfur isotope fractionation. This allows scientists to link metabolism to isotopes: By knowing how metabolism changes stable isotope ratios, scientists can predict the isotopic signature organisms should leave behind.
"This study provides some of the first information regarding how robustly ancient life was metabolizing. Microbial sulfate metabolism is recorded in over 3 billion years of sulfur isotope ratios that are in line with this study's predictions, which suggest life was in fact thriving in the ancient oceans."
Comment: This is very important article as it explains how early bacteria could live on the energy in electrons from minerals. Evolving life has always needed energy intake and excretion of waste products and will leave traces. Bacteria are extremely complex creatures as they must do everything we do but within one cell. Early life couldn't find much protein to ingest fore energy , so this was required, and it is still seen today in extremeophiles.
Evolution: ancient sulfur-eating bacteria and carbon 12-13
by David Turell , Sunday, February 10, 2019, 00:42 (2113 days ago) @ David Turell
Life on Earth is ancient as carbon 12 and carbon 13 isotopes tell us. See what 12 and 13 tell us. Same story as sulfur: life started almost immediately after Earth formed:
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/researchers-life-didnt-just-hang-on-but-...
"We get that evidence from looking at carbon 12 to carbon 13 analysis. And it tells us that in Earth’s oldest (sedimentary) rock, which dates at 3.80 billion years ago, we find an abundance for the carbon signature of living systems. Namely, that life prefers carbon 12. And so if you see a higher ratio of carbon 12 to carbon 13 that means that carbon has been processed by life. And it is that kind of evidence that tells us that life has been abundant on earth as far back as 3.80 billion years ago (when water was first present on earth).,,, And that same carbon 12 to carbon 13 analysis tells us that planet earth, over it entire 4.5662 billion year history has never had prebiotics. Prebiotics would have a higher ratio of carbon 13 to carbon 12. All the carbonaceous material, we see in the entire geological record of the earth, has the signature of being post-biotic not pre-biotic. Which means planet earth never had a primordial soup. And the origin of life on earth took place in a geological instant” (as soon as it was possible for life to exist on earth)."
– Hugh Ross –
Comment: Earth is a very special place.
Evolution: the color of blood
by David Turell , Saturday, April 27, 2019, 23:30 (2036 days ago) @ David Turell
Most animals carry genes for hemoglobin, but only vertebrates use it:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/icefish-study-adds-another-color-to-the-story-of-blood-2...
By looking at the genome of one icefish species, the researchers were able to peek at the evolutionary adaptations that allowed it to survive. Some were common to red-blooded fish that are also native to Antarctic waters, like the presence of extra genes for making blood proteins that act like antifreeze. Some were more distinctive to the icefish’s lack of red blood cells, such as a boost in the enzymes that protect tissues from the highly reactive free oxygen in its blood.
Most invertebrates carry genes for hemoglobins, but they generally use other metalloprotein pigments in their versions of blood. Insects, crustaceans and other arthropods use hemocyanin, a bluish copper-based pigment. Mollusks, ranging from clams to squids and octopuses, use hemocyanin, too, but they seem to have invented their version of it independently. Some worms use purplish hemerythrin; others use greenish chlorocruorin; some use a combination of pigments.
***
From the very beginning of life, cells needed to move electrons around between molecules as part of their metabolism, explained Ross Hardison, a professor of biochemistry and molecular biology at Pennsylvania State University. As controls over these redox (oxidation-reduction) reactions, cells deployed ring-shaped molecules called porphyrins. When these porphyrins held a metal atom like iron or copper, they had a ferocious affinity for oxygen. “Once you have an iron in that porphyrin ring, it’s used throughout the biosphere,” Hardison said. He speculated that it “might be one of the earliest molecules that eventually got incorporated into cells.”
Hemoglobin arose out of four interlinked globin proteins, each holding a heme, and it rapidly became ubiquitous. “Hemoglobins predate the origin of animals and even predate the common ancestor of animals and plants,” said Mark Siddall, a curator in the division of invertebrate biology at the American Museum of Natural History.
The secret of hemoglobin’s success is collaborative bonding: With every oxygen molecule that the pigment binds, it can bind to the next one more easily, until all four vacancies are filled. This makes hemoglobin extremely efficient at collecting oxygen where it’s abundant (as in the open air and in lungs) and then releasing it again gradually in oxygen-starved tissues.
***
Even if the alternative blood pigments are generally a poor second to hemoglobin at grabbing oxygen, they do have an advantage in terms of simplicity: They usually don’t need something like a red blood cell to hold them. In squids, lobsters and the other blue-blooded animals, for example, hemocyanin is dissolved directly in their plasma. This approach works because hemocyanin, hemerythrin and the other pigments are big, frequently polymerized molecules that keep their oxygen-binding metal atoms tucked away from casual interactions. Conversely, hemoglobin is small and its aggressively reactive heme is easily exposed, which makes it highly toxic — so much so that our livers make a protein, haptoglobin, to scavenge stray hemoglobin from broken blood cells out of our blood.
From a toxicity standpoint, hemoglobin is a triple threat, explained Pampee Young, the chief medical officer of biomedical services for the American Red Cross. Heme has even greater affinity for nitric oxide than oxygen, and the body uses nitric oxide as a signaling molecule to control blood pressure. Excess free hemoglobin will therefore rob the blood of nitric oxide, constrict blood vessels and potentially cause hypertension and reduced blood flow to the organs. Compounding the problem is that hemoglobin, when unprotected in blood plasma, decomposes into its component globin subunits. The naked heme molecules then randomly attack the lipid membranes and other structures in the tissues, damaging them. And as a coup de grâce, the isolated globin proteins can clog the filtration system of the kidneys and shut them down.
Packaging hemoglobin into red blood cells (erythrocytes) helps to contain the toxicity problems. It also makes the distribution of oxygen more efficient by keeping the hemoglobin inside the blood vessels: The molecule is otherwise so small that some of it would leak out into the tissues and fall out of circulation.
***
The reason that vertebrates show less diversity in their blood pigments than invertebrates do is simply that invertebrates are a much more diverse group of organisms overall (all vertebrates fall within a single phylum, Chordata, while invertebrates are in more than 30).
Comment: Note that most early organisms carry genes for hemoglobin, even if not using it, as if pre-planning for future evolution. Further the toxicity of hemoglobin and oxygen require the contemporaneous design of protective mechanisms. The article doesn't mention that hemoglobin releases oxygen and immediately picks up carbon dioxide to take to the lungs. The use of hemoglobin and oxygen allows vertebrates to create and use much more energy to act in their activities than non-vertebrates, none of which are as active.
Evolution: factors for speed of diversification
by David Turell , Thursday, August 15, 2019, 22:13 (1926 days ago) @ David Turell
There are several factors that allow for faster changes:
https://phys.org/news/2019-08-early-species-faster-previously-thought.html
"When Earth's species were rapidly diversifying nearly 500 million years ago, that evolution was driven by complex factors including global cooling, more oxygen in the atmosphere, and more nutrients in the oceans. But it took a combination of many global environmental and tectonic changes occurring simultaneously and combining like building blocks to produce rapid diversification into new species, according to a new study by Dr. Alycia Stigall, Professor of Geological Sciences at Ohio University.
"She and fellow researchers have narrowed in a specific time during an era known as the Ordovician Radiation, showing that new species actually developed rapidly during a much shorter time frame than previously thought. The Great Biodiversification Event where many new species developed, they argue, happened during the Darriwilian Stage about 465 million years ago.
"New datasets have allowed them to show that what previously looked like species development widespread over time and geography was actually a diversification pulse.Picture a world before the continents as we know them, when most of the land mass was south of the equator, with only small continents and islands in the vast oceans above the tropics. Then picture ice caps forming over the southern pole. As the ice caps form, the ocean recedes and local, isolated environments form around islands and in seas perched atop continents. In those shallow marine environments, new species develop.
"Then picture the ice caps melting and the oceans rising again, with those new species riding the waves of global diversification to populate new regions. The cycle then repeats producing waves of new species and new dispersals.
"The early evolution of animal life on Earth is a complex and fascinating subject. The Cambrian Explosion (between about 540 to 510 million years ago) produced a stunning array of body plans, but very few separate species of each, notes Stigall. But nearly 40 million years later, during the Ordovician Period, this situation changed, with a rapid radiation of species and genera during the Great Ordovician Biodiversification Event.
***
"In their paper, Stigall and colleagues demonstrate that the main pulse of diversification during the GOBE is temporally restricted and occurred in the Middle Ordovician Darriwilian Stage (about 465 million years ago). Many changes to the physical earth system, including oceanic cooling, increased nutrient availability, and increased atmospheric oxygen accumulate in the interval leading up to the Darriwilian.
"These physical changes were necessary building blocks, but on their own were not enough to light the spark of diversification.
"The missing ingredient was a method to alternately connect and isolate populations of species through cycles of vicariance and dispersal. That spark finally occurs in the Darriwilian Stage when ice caps form over the south pole of the Ordovician Earth. The waxing and waning of these ice sheets caused sea level to rise and fall (similar to the Pleistocene), which provided the alternate connection and disconnection needed to facilitate rapid diversity accumulation."
Comment: All of these factors allowed the diversification to occur in a speedy fashion but it must be remembered, the genome must initiate change and that is the driving factor, n ot the environment.
Evolution: factors for speed of diversification
by dhw, Friday, August 16, 2019, 08:45 (1926 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: The missing ingredient was a method to alternately connect and isolate populations of species through cycles of vicariance and dispersal. That spark finally occurs in the Darriwilian Stage when ice caps form over the south pole of the Ordovician Earth. The waxing and waning of these ice sheets caused sea level to rise and fall (similar to the Pleistocene), which provided the alternate connection and disconnection needed to facilitate rapid diversity accumulation."
DAVID: All of these factors allowed the diversification to occur in a speedy fashion but it must be remembered, the genome must initiate change and that is the driving factor, not the environment.
I don’t understand your comment. The changes occur through interaction between the environment and the genome. The genome responds to the environment. The article makes it clear that without these environmental changes, the genome would not have diversified so quickly. One of our favourite examples of this process is the whale’s flipper: you claim that your God designed it before the pre-whale entered the water (genome changes before environment changes), whereas I and probably most other people would argue that the pre-whale’s legs changed to flippers in response to its entering the water.
Evolution: factors for speed of diversification
by David Turell , Friday, August 16, 2019, 16:01 (1925 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: The missing ingredient was a method to alternately connect and isolate populations of species through cycles of vicariance and dispersal. That spark finally occurs in the Darriwilian Stage when ice caps form over the south pole of the Ordovician Earth. The waxing and waning of these ice sheets caused sea level to rise and fall (similar to the Pleistocene), which provided the alternate connection and disconnection needed to facilitate rapid diversity accumulation."
DAVID: All of these factors allowed the diversification to occur in a speedy fashion but it must be remembered, the genome must initiate change and that is the driving factor, not the environment.
dhw: I don’t understand your comment. The changes occur through interaction between the environment and the genome. The genome responds to the environment. The article makes it clear that without these environmental changes, the genome would not have diversified so quickly. One of our favourite examples of this process is the whale’s flipper: you claim that your God designed it before the pre-whale entered the water (genome changes before environment changes), whereas I and probably most other people would argue that the pre-whale’s legs changed to flippers in response to its entering the water.
What changes in a new species is driven by the genome. That is all I have stated. The environment may invite change, but it is secondary to the process of change.
Evolution: the influence of parasites
by David Turell , Saturday, August 24, 2019, 19:02 (1917 days ago) @ David Turell
Parasites make their hosts develop mechanisms to fight back:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/08/190823182702.htm
"Marco Del Giudice explores an overlooked aspect of this relationship by systematically discussing the ways in which parasitic behavior manipulation may encourage the evolution of mechanisms in the host's nervous and endocrine systems. Examining this evolutionary history, Del Giudice investigates the hypothetical methods hosts may have adopted to counteract attempts at behavioral hijacking.
"Parasites, such as viruses, insects, helminths, and bacteria, seek to manipulate host behavior for numerous reasons. Parasitic organisms may induce behavioral changes in order to increase their chances of transmission from one host to another. In a similar vein, parasites may disrupt a host's normal neural functioning to prompt the organism to travel to an environment that is more hospitable for the parasite or more conducive for reproduction. Host bodies are sometimes co-opted and utilized as safe environments for the development of the parasite's offspring.
"The means by which parasites attempt to alter host behavior also vary. Parasites may use an immunological approach by disrupting responses in an organism's immune system. A more direct option may be to employ neuropharmacological manipulation by secreting substances that interfere with the host's neurotransmitters. Parasites may also take the genomic/proteomic route by changing gene expression.
"...Del Giudice posits that attacks from these biochemical mechanisms place significant pressure on the nervous system to adapt and develop countermeasures. Drawing upon previous literature and real-world examples, the article proposes four categories of potential host countermeasures. Analyzing this taxonomy, Del Giudice argues that when encountering manipulation, hosts may prevent parasites from bypassing the brain's protective barrier, force parasites to work harder and release greater amounts of neuroactive substances, make signals more complex, or strengthen the brain's ability to endure disturbances.
"'The unrelenting pressure exerted by parasites must have shaped the evolution of nervous and endocrine systems at all levels, with important consequences even for animals that are not (or no longer) manipulation targets. If this is true, many aspects of neurobiology are destined to remain mysterious or poorly understood until parasites -- the brain's invisible designers -- are finally included in the picture," Del Giudice writes.
Comment: There is no question para sites have affected the course to evolutionary changes. Remembering ant-brain-fungus damage, the ants have lost the battle.
Evolution: teeth designed to last a lifetime
by David Turell , Friday, September 27, 2019, 16:07 (1883 days ago) @ David Turell
Tooth enamel is built from off line crystals to stop cracking:
https://phys.org/news/2019-09-picture-reveals-tooth-enamel-strong.html
"Break any bone in the human body, and the body can repair the tissue and fix the damage. Yet tooth enamel—the strongest tissue in the human body—cannot repair itself. Still, our teeth last a lifetime.
"'We apply huge pressure on tooth enamel every time we chew, hundreds of times a day," says Pupa Gilbert, professor of physics at the University of Wisconsin–Madison. "Tooth enamel is unique in that it has to last our entire lifetime. How does it prevent catastrophic failure?"
***
"...used advanced imaging techniques to see a clearer picture of the organization of individual enamel crystals in human teeth. They found that these crystals are not perfectly aligned, as had been previously thought, and that this misorientation likely deflects cracks, leading to enamel's lifelong strength.
***
"Tooth enamel is organized in micron-length rods made up of long, skinny crystals of hydroxyapatite. Gilbert and her group at UW–Madison applied PIC mapping to several human tooth samples and measured the orientation of each crystal in tooth cross sections.
"'By and large, we saw that there was not a single orientation in each rod, but a gradual change in crystal orientations between adjacent nanocrystals," Gilbert says.
***
"Cayla Stifler, a physics graduate student in Gilbert's group and co-author of the study, went back to the PIC mapping data and measured the angular distance between every two adjacent pixels, generating millions of data points. She found that 1 degree was the most common misorientation angle, and that the angular distance never surpassed 30 degrees, consistent with the modeling result that a small misorientation angle is better than a larger one at deflecting cracks.
***
"'Now we know that cracks are deflected at the nanoscale and thus can't propagate very far," says Gilbert. "That's the reason our teeth can last a lifetime without being replaced.'"
Comment: More evidence for design.
Evolution: a different view
by George Jelliss , Crewe, Thursday, May 21, 2015, 21:52 (3473 days ago) @ David Turell
This article reports research which suggests that variation within populations may itself be written in the genes, not just reactions against environmental changes.-https://www.quantamagazine.org/20150512-fruit-flies-individuality/?utm_source=Quanta+Magazine&utm_campaign=176e0492cc-Quanta_Newsletter_Feb_27_2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f0cb61321c-176e0492cc-389391913-This seemed to be the most appropriate thread I could find for this though I've not been following the arguments.
--
GPJ
Evolution: a different view
by David Turell , Friday, May 22, 2015, 02:26 (3473 days ago) @ George Jelliss
George: This article reports research which suggests that variation within populations may itself be written in the genes, not just reactions against environmental changes. > > https://www.quantamagazine.org/20150512-fruit-flies-individuality/?utm_source=Quanta+Ma... > This seemed to be the most appropriate thread I could find for this though I've not been following the arguments.-Thank you for this wonderful article. The study into variability is exceedingly important, for several reasons. First it opens us up to the possible reason for some much variation in life forms and life styles. Secondly I think it is of importance as a mechanism for a group's survival. And thirdly, it is obvious if there were no variation, there would be no chance for evolution to be acted upon by natural selection.- "The animals' behavior varied much more than he expected, even when the flies were more or less genetically identical and raised under the same conditions. “If you hold genetics constant and the environment mostly constant, you still see a lot of variation,” de Bivort said.-"De Bivort and his team are now exploring this phenomenon in detail, hoping to discover what drives that unexpected individuality. He's found that different fly strains show different levels of variability. Some strains are like a troop of well-trained soldiers, with each fly mirroring its neighbor. Other strains resemble a wild group of dancers, with individuals moving to their own beat. By comparing soldier and dancer strains, de Bivort thinks he's identified both a gene and a neural circuit that may underlie some of these differences."-There is much more.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits
by David Turell , Friday, November 16, 2018, 00:54 (2199 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by David Turell, Friday, November 16, 2018, 01:52
Found in a large study of yeast:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/11/181108142321.htm
"Collecting such a deep pool of yeast types gave researchers enough information to use comparisons of the shifting genetics to redraw the budding yeast family tree into a dozen major branches and paint a detailed picture of their past.
"'By having a very broad swath of biodiversity, it allows us to reconstruct the evolutionary processes through time," Hittinger says. "That's what allows us to make the inference that much of budding yeast evolution occurred through the process of reductive evolution, where you have a relatively metabolically complex common ancestor losing traits through time."
***
"The original Saccharomycotina was probably more complex than its descendants in an important regard.
"The researchers examined their yeasts for 45 traits representing their ability to process a variety of yeast foods -- different sources of carbon and nitrogen necessary to store energy and build cells. Tracking back the evolutionary paths of modern yeasts suggests the common ancestor yeast had a metabolism that could work with a varied diet.
"'We have a more consistent picture now of the variations of carbon and nitrogen sources across the modern species," says Dana Opulente, a postdoctoral researcher in Hittinger's lab who redid much of the trait-testing work of a century of yeast researchers for the Cell study. "They show us that this ancestor yeast would have been able to use a wider array of sugars than modern budding yeasts."
"Modern yeasts have narrowed their appetites in a process called reductive evolution, losing quite a few of those 45 traits as they specialized to flourish in their particular niches.
"To pick on the model budding yeast, S. cerevisiae has one of the more reduced genomes," Hittinger says. "It lacks many of the metabolic capabilities that other budding yeasts have."
Comment: This fits with the theory presented by Behe in his new book in that advancing evolution involves a devolution in DNA:
" Twenty years after publishing his seminal work, Darwin’s Black Box, Behe shows that new scientific discoveries point to a stunning fact: Darwin’s mechanism works by a process of devolution, not evolution. On the surface, evolution can help make something look and act different, but it doesn’t have the ability to build or create anything at the genetic level.
"Critically analyzing the latest research, Behe gives a sweeping tour of how modern theories of evolution fall short and how the devolving nature of Darwin’s mechanism limits them even further. If we are to get a satisfactory answer to how the most complex, stunning life-forms arose, it’s time to acknowledge the conclusion that only an intelligent mind could have designed life.
"We’re told that the basic thesis is, The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution: Break or blunt any functional gene whose loss would increase the number of offspring."
https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-peek-at-mike-behes-new-book-darwin-devolves/
Comment: I'll have to read it.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits
by David Turell , Friday, November 16, 2018, 02:02 (2199 days ago) @ David Turell
Disagrees with Lenski's e. coli twenty year long study:
https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/a704d4_0b58ae78418c49cfa629fe90ddaa5ba1.pdf
"The most significant evolutionary experiment of all time was started by Dr. Richard Lenski at Michigan State University on February 15 th 1988 . T h at experiment continues to this day. It h a s b e e n a r g u ed t h a t t h is e x p e r i m e nt s h o ws t h a t a strain o f t h e E . c o li bacterium is undergo ing dramatic forward evolution, allowing us to document in the test tube the same type of macroevolution that allows one type of life to morph into a fundamentally different type of life (such as ape - to - man evolution). Some have argue d that the resulting bacterial strains have actually morphed into entirely new species. It has been said this ex periment lays to rest any doubt s about macroevo lution . More specifically, it is widely claimed that this e x p e r i m e n t p r o v e s t h a t the neo - D a r w i n i an m e c h a n i s m ( r a n d om m u t a t i o n s plus natural selection) is fully sufficient to explain the origin of all forms of life , including man.
"In this paper we will docu ment that this experiment is indeed extremely significant, but for the opposite reasons. The bacteria have not experienced forward evolution, but rather the net effect has been reductive evolution (evolution going backwards). It is true that t here has been some adaptation to the new artificial environment, but this has been primarily due to loss - of - function mutations. Such adaptive fine - tuning can at best be called microevolution, and has been accom plished through a net loss of information (broken genes /disrupted gene regulation) . In all 12 experimental populations, t he functional bacterial genome ha s shrunk - contain ing less total information. The resulting bacterial strains are still the same species, but have been seriously damaged. These disabled str ains would quickly go extinct in any natural environment.
"If any experiment could have validated large - scale macroevolution , it would have been this one. This famous experiment powerfully demonstrate s that the mutation/selection process has very se rious limitations. Even given huge populations and vast number of generations, all that was accomplished was a trivial amount of adaptive microevolution. Even while some superficial fine - tuning has been happening at just a handful of genomic sites, s ignificant genetic damage ha s been accumulating throughout the rest of the genome , due to many slightly harmful deleterious mutations that cannot be selected away . This means that in the long run the net effect will be degeneration . This famous evolutionary experimen t proves that in deep time, even given a model population that is optimal for validating evolution , population s do not evolve – but instead devolve. "
Comment: Obviously there are dissident views of how evolution works. Sorry about the copy of the first paragraph. PDF sometimes does that.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; jellyfish
by David Turell , Monday, December 03, 2018, 19:14 (2181 days ago) @ David Turell
Jellyfish metamorphasize and use old genes to do it:
https://phys.org/news/2018-12-jellyfish-genome-reveals-ancient-complex.html
"Jellyfish undergo an amazing metamorphosis, from tiny polyps growing on the seafloor to swimming medusae with stinging tentacles. This shape-shifting has served them well, shepherding jellyfish through more than 500 million years of mass extinctions on Earth.
***
"'Whatever they're doing has really worked for them," said David Gold, an assistant professor of paleobiology in the UC Davis College of Letters and Science.
"The first in-depth look at the genome of a jellyfish—the moon jelly Aurelia aurita—reveals the origins of this successful survival strategy. The Aurelia genome, published online Dec. 3 in the journal Nature Ecology and Evolution, indicates early jellyfish recycled existing genes to morph from polyp to medusa. The results suggest animals can radiate into new niches and forms fairly easily.
"'These findings provide further evidence that evolution doesn't necessarily make the genetic code more complex," said Gold, a lead researcher on the genome study. "Jellyfish can build a big, complex life history using many of the same genes found in simpler animals." (my bold)
***
"At some point in their evolution, jellyfish gained the ability to transition from a stationary polyp to a swimming medusa. The transition involves major changes in the jellyfish nervous system, muscles and weaponry, aka the stinging cells called cnidocytes. To accomplish this, the medusa life stage often co-opts existing developmental gene networks and cell types present in polyps, the researchers found. In addition, Aurelia appears to pattern its different life stages using many of the same genes found in animals such as fruit flies and humans, the study reports. (all of these animals share a common ancestor, albeit an ancient one.)
"There is a second, more controversial explanation for what the scientists found in the jellyfish genome. Perhaps the similarities between the moon jellyfish genome and "higher" animals demonstrates that the Cnidaria originally had a medusa life stage, which animals like corals and sea anemones lost."
Comment: Note my bold. Advances in evolution can use old genes and not more complexity of genes! Devolution is real.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; jellyfish
by dhw, Tuesday, December 04, 2018, 14:40 (2180 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: "'These findings provide further evidence that evolution doesn't necessarily make the genetic code more complex," said Gold, a lead researcher on the genome study. "Jellyfish can build a big, complex life history using many of the same genes found in simpler animals." (David's bold)
DAVID: Note my bold. Advances in evolution can use old genes and not more complexity of genes! Devolution is real.
Already covered earlier. It is perfectly logical that different environments will make some earlier features redundant. Organisms living underground don’t need eyes, filter-feeders don’t need teeth, and jellyfish don’t need some of the complexities that they may have inherited from their descendants. So what? Do you really think that humans devolved from bacteria?
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; jellyfish
by David Turell , Tuesday, December 04, 2018, 18:44 (2180 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: "'These findings provide further evidence that evolution doesn't necessarily make the genetic code more complex," said Gold, a lead researcher on the genome study. "Jellyfish can build a big, complex life history using many of the same genes found in simpler animals." (David's bold)
DAVID: Note my bold. Advances in evolution can use old genes and not more complexity of genes! Devolution is real.
dhw: Already covered earlier. It is perfectly logical that different environments will make some earlier features redundant. Organisms living underground don’t need eyes, filter-feeders don’t need teeth, and jellyfish don’t need some of the complexities that they may have inherited from their descendants. So what? Do you really think that humans devolved from bacteria?
I need to see Behe's evidence. He is a very bright guy, not to be dismissed.
Evolution: the presence of life evolves the Earth
by David Turell , Tuesday, December 04, 2018, 19:04 (2180 days ago) @ David Turell
The two evolutionary processes of a changing Earth and a changing life markedly influence each other as the two processes are totally intertwined, as shown in this article about beavers in Alaska:
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/beavers-are-engineering-new-alaskan-tundra
"Much like humans, beavers can have an oversized effect on the landscape (SN: 8/4/18, p. 28). People who live near beaver habitat complain of downed trees and flooded land. But in areas populated mostly by critters, the effects can be positive. Beaver dams broaden and deepen small streams, forming new ponds and warming up local waters. Those beaver-built enhancements create or expand habitats hospitable to many other species — one of the main reasons that researchers refer to beavers as ecosystem engineers.
***
"Beavers’ tireless toils — to erect lodges that provide a measure of security against land-based predators and to build a larder of limbs, bark and other vegetation to tide them over until spring thaw — benefit the wildlife community.
"Beavers may be infiltrating the region for the first time in recent history as climate change makes conditions more hospitable, says Ken Tape, an ecologist at the University of Alaska Fairbanks.
***
"Beavers’ biggest effects on Arctic ecosystems may come from the added biodiversity within the ponds they create, says James Roth, an ecologist at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg, Canada. These “oases on the tundra” will not only provide permanent habitat for fish and amphibians, they’ll serve as seasonal stopover spots for migratory waterfowl. Physical changes to the environment could be just as dramatic, thawing permafrost decades faster than climate change alone would.
***
:Beavers have infiltrated three watersheds in northwestern Alaska in the last couple of decades. Together these drainages cover more than 18,000 square kilometers — an area larger than Connecticut.
"The researchers then used newer, high-resolution satellite images to verify the presence of beaver ponds. Available aerial photographs taken before 1999 didn’t pick up any signs of beaver activity in the area, Tape says. Kirk notes that beavers were present in the Lower Noatak River watershed before 1999, but in vastly smaller numbers than they are today.
"Based on the images at hand, the researchers found 56 new complexes of beaver ponds in the area over the 16-year study period. On average, beavers expanded their range about 8 kilometers per year, Tape and colleagues reported in the October Global Change Biology.
“This is remarkable, but it shouldn’t come as a surprise,” Tape says. “Beavers are engineers that work every day, all summer long.”
***
"The beavers are not only persisting on the tundra, they’re thriving. The moderately sized streams and flat terrain provide ideal habitat. And once they gain a foothold, these industrious creatures set about making improvements that are probably an overall plus for myriad other species, Tape says.
"For instance, frigid conditions in the region cause shallow streams to freeze solid in winter. But when a beaver builds a dam, the water that gathers upstream of the structure becomes deep enough to remain liquid below a sheet of ice that provides insulation from the chilly winter air.
"That persistent liquid lets the beavers move about under the ice even in the depths of winter. The water gives them a place to stockpile food, too, Tape notes. That constant supply of liquid water also provides year-round habitat for fish, amphibians and even some insects in their larval stages. None of these species are part of the beaver’s diet, but they could serve as food for other creatures. “All that diversity would add whole new layers to food webs,” Roth says.
***
"Field studies at lower latitudes hint that beavers will probably bring about other ecological changes, too, Tape says, which might shift over time. For example, moose and snowshoe hares eat the same willow shrubs that beavers consume and build their dams with. And ptarmigan, a crow-sized bird in the grouse family, rely on those shrubs for cover, especially during winter. So immediately after beavers move into an area and start clearing that brush, populations of those species may decline.
"But the long-term benefits will probably outweigh the short-term impacts on those species, says Matthew Mumma, an ecologist at the University of Northern British Columbia in Prince George, Canada. Permafrost that thaws along the fringe of a beaver pond will probably boost numbers of the shrubs that these species depend on, Tape and colleagues suggest. So in the long run, the overall numbers of moose, hares and ptarmigan may rise.
***
"The wolves with diets heavier in beaver had, on average, fewer intestinal parasites called cestodes. (Tapeworms are the best-known members of that group.)
"Beaver-eating wolves are much less likely to excrete parasites into the environment where they could be picked up by ungulates, such as moose and caribou. Wolves don’t seem to be detrimentally affected by such parasites. But ungulates that become infected — especially older animals — may have reduced lung capacity, making escape from predators more difficult."
Comment: An ecological article much too long to summarize. It shows how life influences the ecology and the necessary econiches, while changing the local Earth. It answers dhw's attempt to downplay econiches.
Evolution: the presence of life evolves the Earth
by David Turell , Thursday, October 01, 2020, 17:58 (1513 days ago) @ David Turell
What the human presence does:
https://aeon.co/essays/revolutionary-archaeology-reveals-the-deepest-possible-anthropoc...
"By 3,000 years ago, Earth’s terrestrial ecology was already largely transformed by hunter-gatherers, farmers and pastoralists – with more than half of regions assessed engaged in significant levels of agriculture or pastoralism.
***
"These examples highlight a general trend we found that agriculture and pastoralism gradually replaced foraging-hunting-gathering around the world. But the data also show that there were reversals and different subsistence economies, from foraging to farming, operating in parallel in some places. Moreover, agriculture and pastoralism are not the only practices that transform environments. Hunter-gatherer land use was already widespread across the globe (82 per cent of regions) by 10,000 years ago. Through the selective harvest and translocation of favoured species, hunting (sometimes to extinction) and the use of fire to dramatically alter landscapes, most of the terrestrial biosphere was already significantly influenced by human activities, even before the domestication of plants and animals.
***
"Human changes to the environment are cumulative and were substantial at different scales throughout our history. The deep trajectory of land use revealed by ArchaeoGLOBE [the major study] runs counter to the idea of pinpointing a single catalytic moment that fundamentally changed the relationship between humanity and the Earth system.
***
"Humans have continually altered biodiversity on many scales. We have changed the local mix of species, their ranges, habitats and niches for thousands of years. Long before agriculture, selective human predation of many non-domesticated species shaped their evolutionary course. Even the relatively small hunter-gatherer populations of the late Pleistocene were capable of negatively affecting animal populations – driving many megafauna and island species extinct or to the point of extinction. But there have also been widespread social and ecological adaptations to these changes: human management can even increase biodiversity of landscapes and can sustain these increases for thousands of years.
***
"...ecological crises are not inevitable. Humans have long maintained sustainable environments by adapting and transforming their societies. As our work demonstrates, humans have shaped the ecology of this planet for thousands of years, and continue to shape it.
"We live at a unique time in history, in which our awareness of our role in changing the planet is increasing at the precise moment when we’re causing it to change at an alarming rate. It’s ironic that technological advances are simultaneously accelerating both global environmental change and our ability to understand humans’ role in shaping life on Earth. Ultimately, though, a deeper appreciation of how the Earth’s environments are connected to human cultural values helps us make better decisions – and also places the responsibility for the planet’s future squarely on our shoulders."
Comment: No question we are dominant and in full control. With that we have the brain power to handle our position position properly.
Evolution: the presence of life evolves the Earth
by David Turell , Friday, October 02, 2020, 21:31 (1512 days ago) @ David Turell
A study on local environmental change by local organisms.
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/40/eabb2943?utm_campaign=toc_advances_2020-10...
"Abstract
The scarcity of high-resolution empirical data directly tracking diversity over time limits our understanding of speciation and extinction dynamics and the drivers of rate changes. Here, we analyze a continuous species-level fossil record of endemic diatoms from ancient Lake Ohrid, along with environmental and climate indicator time series since lake formation 1.36 million years (Ma) ago. We show that speciation and extinction rates nearly simultaneously decreased in the environmentally dynamic phase after ecosystem formation and stabilized after deep-water conditions established in Lake Ohrid. As the lake deepens, we also see a switch in the macroevolutionary trade-off, resulting in a transition from a volatile assemblage of short-lived endemic species to a stable community of long-lived species. Our results emphasize the importance of the interplay between environmental/climate change, ecosystem stability, and environmental limits to diversity for diversification processes. The study also provides a new understanding of evolutionary dynamics in long-lived ecosystems."
Comment: Just more evidence of my point that life interacts with the earth to cause evolutionary changes to the Earth.
Evolution: possible origin of apoptosis
by David Turell , Monday, October 05, 2020, 23:38 (1509 days ago) @ David Turell
The ability of cells killing themselves when necessary may have started with an ancient animal multicellular animal:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/science/biology/the-value-of-cellular-self-sacrifice/?utm_so...
"Scientists have uncovered how one of the oldest and simplest animals on Earth sacrifices its own cells for the benefit of the organism.
"They say the similarities between altruistic cell death in Trichoplax adhaerens – a tiny marine invertebrate that resembles an irregular hairy plate – and a similar but defective process in human cancer cells provides insights into the development of a new generation of cancer drugs.
***
"Research co-leader Marc Kvansakul, from Australia’s La Trobe University, says the team was able to decipher, for the first time, the origins of cell death in the small marine invertebrate.
“'A major evolutionary advance at the dawn of prehistoric times was the gigantic leap from an organism with a single cell to an organism with multiple cells, enabling the creation of the first animal,” he says.
“'Trichoplax Adhaerens is the living ancestor of one of the first multicellular animals on earth and still found all around the world…”
"For multicellular animals to survive, the researchers say, they needed new ways to repair a whole tissue made of multiple cells.
"The new study describes how these organisms evolved to use apoptosis, a survival tactic known as cell death, to essentially sacrifice themselves for the benefit of the whole organism’s health. The same system is also present in humans."
Comment: Every necessary process has to start somewhere, sometime. And then carry forward into the future, because what happens early sets the stage for the future. Humans arrived as a result of all the events before them, something dhw always seems to get confused about. The appearance of humans through evolution required all the past events.
Evolution: moles strange heterosexuality
by David Turell , Thursday, October 08, 2020, 19:53 (1506 days ago) @ David Turell
The females make lots of testosterone:
https://phys.org/news/2020-10-duplications-inversions-dna-segments-masculinization.html
"Moles roam in an extreme habitat. As mammals that burrow deep into the earth, they have forepaws with an extra finger and exceptionally strong muscles. What's more, female moles are intersexual while retaining their fertility. Typical for mammals, they are equipped with two X chromosomes, but they simultaneously develop functional ovarian and testicular tissues. In female moles, both tissue types are united in one organ, the ovotestis—a feature unique among mammals.
"The testicular tissue of the female mole does not produce sperm, but large amounts of the sex hormone testosterone, meaning the females have similarly high levels as the males. Presumably, this natural "doping" makes the female moles aggressive and muscular, an advantage for life underground, where they have to dig burrows and fight for resources.
***
"According to the study, it is primarily changes in the structure of the genome that lead to altered control of genetic activity. In addition to the genetic program for testicular development, this also stimulates enzymes for male hormone production in the females.
***
"'We hypothesized that in moles, there are not only changes in the genes themselves, but particularly in the regulatory regions belonging to these genes," says Mundlos.
"In the course of the moles' evolution, then not only would individual letters of the DNA have changed, also larger pieces of the genome would have shifted, says the researcher. If segments of DNA move from one location to another, completely new or reorganized regulatory domains can emerge and thus activate new genes and enhance or attenuate their expression.
***
"...when comparing the genome to that of other animals and humans, the team discovered an inversion—i.e., an inverted genomic segment—in a region known to be involved in testicular development. The inversion causes additional DNA segments to get included in the regulatory domain of the gene FGF9, which reorganizes the control and regulation of the gene. "This change is associated with the development of testicular tissue in addition to ovarian tissue in female moles," explains Dr. Francisca Martinez Real, lead author of the study and scientist at the MPIMG as well as the Institute for Medical Genetics and Human Genetics at Charité.
"The team also discovered a triplication of a genomic region responsible for the production of male sex hormones (androgens), more specifically the androgen production gene CYP17A1. "The triplication appends additional regulatory sequences to the gene—which ultimately leads to an increased production of male sex hormones in the ovotestes of female moles, especially more testosterone," says Real.
***
"'Our findings are a good example of how important the three-dimensional organization of the genome is for evolution," says Lupiáñez. "Nature makes use of the existing toolbox of developmental genes and merely rearranges them to create a characteristic such as intersexuality. In the process, other organ systems and development are not affected.'"
Comment: This shows how God might dabble a genome. We do not know how is is driven naturally.
Evolution: complexity, protein language & information
by David Turell , Friday, October 09, 2020, 19:49 (1505 days ago) @ David Turell
A very interesting review of the research:
https://inference-review.com/article/the-internal-language-of-proteins
"THE QUESTION OF WHETHER proteins share a common language across the major branches of life is an intriguing one. In their paper, Lijia Yu et al. investigated the arrangements of protein domains, considering them as a kind of grammar that orders the internal structure of proteins. They found that only a small subset of all the possible orderings occur, and that the properties of such a grammar are common across most of the major taxonomic groupings.
***
"The concept of a language for protein assembly has been widely discussed in different contexts. This should come as no surprise, because biology is increasingly being viewed as an information science.
***
"The researchers found that there was a reasonably consistent difference between random sets and actual genomes, which they interpreted as the minimal information gain required to maintain a functioning living cell. Although not immediately obvious from first principles, this finding makes sense in light of the data. It is conceivable that the information encoded in genomes might not be crucially dependent on domain architecture, so that information could be randomized without issue.
***
"Yu et al. find that animal genomes “show the highest information gain among the analyzed groups.” They claim that this accords “with the notion that domain architectures in animals are more elaborate and evolve under stronger constraints than those in other organisms.”
***
"A few decades ago it was thought that almost all genes were ancient and that modern genes were derived through processes such as duplication and divergence.11 It has since become clear that many genes emerged from noncoding sequences over the course of evolution. Such genes would presumably begin with a minimal number of functional units and accumulate additional domains over time. The resulting protein domain architectures reflect the relative contributions of de novo gene processes and the number of domain shuffling events that are retained.
"Two conclusions can be drawn from the work of Yu et al. First, there is apparently an information increase within proteins at the level of domain arrangement, which is associated with functional cells. Second, complexity can be objectively measured. This paper adds to the growing body of evidence that there have been genuine increases in complexity over the course of evolutionary history, and that this is particularly evident in animals. Biologists have become so accustomed to considering notions of human uniqueness as thoroughly debunked that any hint of so-called progress within evolution is treated with great skepticism. Whatever one makes of such a loaded term, increased complexity in some lineages is observable across multiple biological features, including protein domain architecture.
Comment: This study review relates to the steady increase in information and complexity during the process of evolution. Note the bold. dhw take notice. It is a key to understanding the real process of how evolution advances.
Evolution: a mechanism of apoptosis
by David Turell , Thursday, February 17, 2022, 19:39 (1009 days ago) @ David Turell
At the molecular level:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-02-molecular-culprit-caught-cell-death.html
"Cell death is an important part of the body's immune response to infection. When uncontrolled, however, it can cause harmful amounts of inflammation in otherwise healthy organs and tissue. The research team uncovered how an overproduction of the molecule nitric oxide, which the protein caspase-8 helps to produce, caused dangerous levels of cell death. They showed that arresting the function of caspase-8 could prevent unregulated cell death and inflammation.
***
"While nitric oxide is critical to the body's circulatory and nervous systems, the recent findings link an overproduction of the molecule with excessive levels of cell death and inflammation. Cell death is critical for a healthy immune response, however, too much of it can send the immune system into overdrive and trigger inflammatory disease."
Comment: worn out cells have one process of apoptosis to produce new cells, separate from the destruction of cells required in immune defense reactions. Over=reactions are mistakes in molecular reactions, which it seems we can learn to correct with further research.
Evolution: more convergence
by David Turell , Saturday, February 19, 2022, 15:45 (1007 days ago) @ David Turell
Insects that suck liquid food:
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-map-charts-the-milky-way-s-dramatic-history-of-violenc...
"Whether nectar-sucking butterflies or blood-sucking mosquitoes - the ingestion of liquid food has long been known for many insects and other arthropods. A research team now shows that millipedes also use a sucking pump to ingest liquid food. A sucking pump has thus evolved independently in different groups of organisms over several 100 million years. In the process, astonishingly similar biomechanical solutions for ingesting liquid food have evolved in widely distant animal groups.
***
"Using high-resolution tomography as well as histological methods and electron microscopy, the researchers discovered a sucking pump in millipedes that is strikingly similar to those of insects. It consists of a chamber that is widened by strong muscles to suck in liquid food. "Together with the protractible mouthparts the sucking pump enables these millipedes to ingest more or less liquid food," explains Leif Moritz, a doctoral student at the University of Bonn and the LIB."
Comment: this diversity of insects with the same mechanism, called convergent evolution is a strong evidence for design against chance development.
Evolution: the presence of life evolves the Earth
by David Turell , Saturday, October 10, 2020, 19:09 (1504 days ago) @ David Turell
Our presence has made enormous changes:
https://aeon.co/essays/revolutionary-archaeology-reveals-the-deepest-possible-anthropoc...
"...beginning in the Near East some 11,000 years ago, humans discovered how to control the reproduction of wheat and barley, which precipitated a rapid switch to farming. Within 500 to 1,000 years, a scattering of small farming villages sprang up, each with several hundred inhabitants eating bread, chickpeas and lentils, soon also herding sheep and goats in the hills, some keeping cattle.
***
"ArchaeoGLOBE reveals that human societies transformed most of Earth’s biosphere much earlier and more profoundly than we thought – an insight that has serious implications for how we understand humanity’s relationship to nature and the planet as a whole.
***
"With all these fresh data, it’s now possible to tell a much richer, more diverse story about the gradual evolutions and dispersals of early agriculture. By 6,000 years ago, the British Isles were being transformed by an imported collection of crops, weeds and livestock that had originated millennia earlier in the Near East. Similarly, millet, rice and pigs from central China had been spread as far as Thailand by 4,000 years ago, and began transforming much of the region’s tropical woodland to agricultural fields. New stories are constantly emerging too – including that sorghum, a grain crop, was domesticated in the savannahs of eastern Sudan more than 5,000 years ago, before the arrival of domesticated sheep or goats in that area. Once combined with Near Eastern sheep, goats and cattle, agropastoralism spread rapidly throughout most of sub-Saharan Africa by 2,000 years ago.
***
"As a result, new revelations about our deep past are constantly emerging. Recent discoveries in southwestern Amazonia showed that people were cultivating squash and manioc more than 10,000 years ago, and maize only a few thousand years later. They did so living in an engineered landscape consisting of thousands of artificial forested islands, within a seasonally flooded savannah.
***
"By 3,000 years ago, Earth’s terrestrial ecology was already largely transformed by hunter-gatherers, farmers and pastoralists – with more than half of regions assessed engaged in significant levels of agriculture or pastoralism.
***
"Hunter-gatherer land use was already widespread across the globe (82 per cent of regions) by 10,000 years ago. Through the selective harvest and translocation of favoured species, hunting (sometimes to extinction) and the use of fire to dramatically alter landscapes, most of the terrestrial biosphere was already significantly influenced by human activities, even before the domestication of plants and animals."
Comment: The alteration by humans of course will increase when the population grows and spreads. The human population went through a bottleneck with as few as 15,000 individuals existing 70,000 years ago:
http://dictionary.sensagent.com/Population%20bottleneck/en-en/
Now we are over 7 billion. The Earth will never be as long go.
Evolution: the presence of life evolves the Earth
by dhw, Sunday, October 11, 2020, 13:02 (1504 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Our presence has made enormous changes:
https://aeon.co/essays/revolutionary-archaeology-reveals-the-deepest-possible-anthropoc...
QUOTE: "...beginning in the Near East some 11,000 years ago, humans discovered how to control the reproduction of wheat and barley, which precipitated a rapid switch to farming. Within 500 to 1,000 years, a scattering of small farming villages sprang up, each with several hundred inhabitants eating bread, chickpeas and lentils, soon also herding sheep and goats in the hills, some keeping cattle.”
There is no question that the human species has had enormous influence on the planet. As an addition to this observation, I would like to mention a remarkable book, first published in 1988 by Yale University Press and still available: Peter J. Wilson, The Domestication of the Human Species, in which he argues that these discoveries were the root of our modern world – social, cultural, psychological, political etc.….The book is still available and highly recommended. The late author (who died in 2005) was Professor of Anthropology at the University of Otago, New Zealand, and he was my brother.
Evolution: the presence of life evolves the Earth
by David Turell , Sunday, October 11, 2020, 15:35 (1503 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Our presence has made enormous changes:
https://aeon.co/essays/revolutionary-archaeology-reveals-the-deepest-possible-anthropoc...QUOTE: "...beginning in the Near East some 11,000 years ago, humans discovered how to control the reproduction of wheat and barley, which precipitated a rapid switch to farming. Within 500 to 1,000 years, a scattering of small farming villages sprang up, each with several hundred inhabitants eating bread, chickpeas and lentils, soon also herding sheep and goats in the hills, some keeping cattle.”
dhw: There is no question that the human species has had enormous influence on the planet. As an addition to this observation, I would like to mention a remarkable book, first published in 1988 by Yale University Press and still available: Peter J. Wilson, The Domestication of the Human Species, in which he argues that these discoveries were the root of our modern world – social, cultural, psychological, political etc.….The book is still available and highly recommended. The late author (who died in 2005) was Professor of Anthropology at the University of Otago, New Zealand, and he was my brother.
Ah, more evidence of brilliance in the Wilson family. The present is always built on the past. Sounds like he was much more reasonable than Margaret Mead fooled by the islanders.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; jellyfish
by dhw, Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 11:45 (2180 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: "'These findings provide further evidence that evolution doesn't necessarily make the genetic code more complex," said Gold, a lead researcher on the genome study. "Jellyfish can build a big, complex life history using many of the same genes found in simpler animals." (David's bold)
DAVID: Note my bold. Advances in evolution can use old genes and not more complexity of genes! Devolution is real.
dhw: Already covered earlier. It is perfectly logical that different environments will make some earlier features redundant. Organisms living underground don’t need eyes, filter-feeders don’t need teeth, and jellyfish don’t need some of the complexities that they may have inherited from their descendants. So what? Do you really think that humans devolved from bacteria?
DAVID: I need to see Behe's evidence. He is a very bright guy, not to be dismissed.
Fair enough. No hurry!
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; more Behe
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 02, 2019, 23:33 (2151 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by David Turell, Thursday, January 03, 2019, 00:00
Another review of his book, which arrives soon:
https://evolutionnews.org/2018/12/2-of-our-top-stories-of-2018-behes-darwin-devolves-to...
"All studies demonstrated the same basic results. First, the vast majority of adaptive mutations degrade or outright disable genes. For instance, the gene most strongly associated with the difference in blunt-beak verses pointed-beak finches is called ALX1. The only variation in it throughout all finch species is two mutations that both impair function. Similarly, the E. coli strains that best adapt to strong selective pressures primarily disable genes that are not immediately needed for survival. Behe labels this result the First Rule of Adaptive Evolution:
Break or blunt any gene whose loss would increase the number of offspring.
"This rule is easy to understand. Random mutations can far more easily break a gene than enable some new function, so solutions to challenges that involve breaking a gene will predominate. An analogy Behe uses is a person whose house is filling up with water due to a leaky pipe. The available options are to break a hole in the wall to allow the water to escape or wait for a pump to be delivered that happens to be on a ten-year backorder. The obvious solution would be to break a hole in the wall.
"Second, mutations that modify a function are far fewer and represent trivial changes. For instance, the most widely publicized result from Lenski’s lab was the appearance of strains of E. coli that were able to eat citrate. However, the bacteria already have this ability. It is normally switched off in the presence of oxygen. The fortunate bacteria obtained an alteration that allowed them to access citrate in all conditions. The third observation is that mutations which initiate new functions or modify existing ones still usually lead to the loss of significant quantities of genetic information. In the previous example, the citrate-eating bacteria developed additional mutations which resulted in the loss of function in several other genes. In the end, the strains fine-tuned their metabolism to the new environment, but at the expense of losing the ability to survive in the original one.
***
"The big picture conclusions of all studies is that evolutionary processes are only capable of driving changes at the level of species and genera, but not at the level of families or higher. Stated differently, evolution produces a limited number of changes and then no further significant change is possible. For instance, the adaptations seen in the cichlid fish in Lake Victoria over 15,000 years closely match those seen in the cichlid fish in the other lakes after several million years. The same limited number of changes repeated themselves over and over. In addition, all modifications represent minor alterations of the same cichlid body plan.
"The evidence commonly cited to argue for evolution’s ability to drive large-scale transformations is almost always circular. Biologists regularly identify similarities and differences between two groups and then assume those differences are the result of natural selection, mutations, and related processes. However, this conclusion is not based on any actual hard evidence. It is simply assumed. As Behe demonstrates, all empirical data point to the conclusion that evolution is only capable of producing minor alterations of existing designs but nothing truly novel. Evolutionists must now to an even greater extent disconnect their grand narratives from empirical data and confine them to the realm of their unrestrained imaginations. "
Comment: This description of Behe's conclusions fits my theory that all the needed information for evolution was put into original life DNA.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; more Behe
by dhw, Thursday, January 03, 2019, 10:29 (2151 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: "The evidence commonly cited to argue for evolution’s ability to drive large-scale transformations is almost always circular. Biologists regularly identify similarities and differences between two groups and then assume those differences are the result of natural selection, mutations, and related processes. However, this conclusion is not based on any actual hard evidence. It is simply assumed. As Behe demonstrates, all empirical data point to the conclusion that evolution is only capable of producing minor alterations of existing designs but nothing truly novel. Evolutionists must now to an even greater extent disconnect their grand narratives from empirical data and confine them to the realm of their unrestrained imaginations.[/i] " (David’s bold)
DAVID: This description of Behe's conclusions fits my theory that all the needed information for evolution was put into original life DNA.
As far as you and I are concerned, Behe is flogging a dead horse here. Over and over again, we have agreed that innovation is the unsolved mystery of evolution, and random mutations are not the solution. It will be interesting to see what Behe does regard as the solution, but I’ll be very surprised if he suggests that 3.8 billion years ago your God preprogrammed the very first cells with every single innovation throughout the history of life. I’ll be less surprised if he suggests that your God dabbled every single innovation. And I very much doubt whether he’ll suggest that your God may have invented a mechanism (cellular intelligence) enabling cells/cell communities autonomously to design their own innovations as and when changing environments require or allow them. We’ll have to wait and see.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; more Behe
by David Turell , Thursday, January 03, 2019, 19:04 (2150 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: "The evidence commonly cited to argue for evolution’s ability to drive large-scale transformations is almost always circular. Biologists regularly identify similarities and differences between two groups and then assume those differences are the result of natural selection, mutations, and related processes. However, this conclusion is not based on any actual hard evidence. It is simply assumed. As Behe demonstrates, all empirical data point to the conclusion that evolution is only capable of producing minor alterations of existing designs but nothing truly novel. Evolutionists must now to an even greater extent disconnect their grand narratives from empirical data and confine them to the realm of their unrestrained imaginations.[/i] " (David’s bold)
DAVID: This description of Behe's conclusions fits my theory that all the needed information for evolution was put into original life DNA.
dhw: As far as you and I are concerned, Behe is flogging a dead horse here. Over and over again, we have agreed that innovation is the unsolved mystery of evolution, and random mutations are not the solution. It will be interesting to see what Behe does regard as the solution, but I’ll be very surprised if he suggests that 3.8 billion years ago your God preprogrammed the very first cells with every single innovation throughout the history of life. I’ll be less surprised if he suggests that your God dabbled every single innovation. And I very much doubt whether he’ll suggest that your God may have invented a mechanism (cellular intelligence) enabling cells/cell communities autonomously to design their own innovations as and when changing environments require or allow them. We’ll have to wait and see.
I will get the book and report.
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by David Turell , Friday, January 04, 2019, 19:17 (2149 days ago) @ David Turell
Evolution can speed up by loss of fragile DNA segments a study in Stickleback fish shows:
https://phys.org/news/2019-01-strength-weakness-fragile-dna-regions.html
"The research suggests that some critical evolutionary changes are likely to have occurred in leaps and bounds through the abrupt loss of stretches of DNA, rather than through the slow accumulation and additive effects of many small mutations.
"The researchers, who studied a tiny fish called the threespine stickleback, found that such "fragile" DNA regions create genetic hot spots that mutate much more rapidly, and dramatically, than neighboring sequences. The resulting changes can help an organism vault far ahead of its peers in the evolutionary arms race.
***
"Many mutations involve a change in just a single nucleotide, or letter, of DNA. Few of these "point" mutations will confer an evolutionary advantage on their own. Instead, significant change often requires the gradual accumulation of several such mutations. In contrast, sudden, large changes in the genome can have large effects—changing body structure through skeletal modifications or affecting metabolism or brain function, for example. Often, these changes are deleterious, decreasing the chances of an animal's survival. Occasionally, however, the changes are advantageous.
"When the last Ice Age ended, about 10,000 years ago, pockets of migratory ocean threespine sticklebacks colonized newly formed lakes and streams in coastal regions, and then evolved independently in response to their new local environments. As a result, many of these populations show significant differences in body structure. Marine sticklebacks, for example, have a hind fin with a large spine projecting down from their pelvic structure. In contrast, dozens of freshwater populations have lost that hind fin; its absence likely reduces their need for calcium and chances of being nabbed and eaten by hungry insects.
***
"Xie found that the DNA sequence of the Pel region is unusual in several ways. Unlike surrounding regions, which exhibit the normal, more-stable helical twist associated with most DNA, the Pel enhancer region that was lost formed an alternate DNA structure predicted to be highly flexible and likely to be unstable during DNA replication. The sequence also contains long strings of repeated pairs of nucleotides, like a kind of genetic stutter. Previous studies in bacteria, mice and humans have indicated that these repeats are often associated with deletions of stretches of DNA. (my bold)
"When Xie tested the stability of the missing Pel region by inserting it into artificial yeast chromosomes, she found that the chromosome broke about 25 to 50 times more frequently than typical DNA sequences. When Xie and her collaborators then tested similar DNA sequences in mammalian cells, they observed that the key dinucleotide repeat sequence often led to the deletion of sections of DNA more than 100 nucleotides long.
"The increase in the rate of chromosome breakage observed by Xie, coupled with the likelihood that this damage causes deletions of entire sections of DNA, may have been a key factor in allowing the prominent hind fin skeletal trait to emerge over and over again in many different young stickleback populations. Elevated mutation rates may play a similar role when advantageous traits arise in other organisms, the scientists believe.
"Many vertebrates, including early humans, are dealing with a small population size and relatively long generation times," said Kingsley, who is the Rudy J. and Daphne Donohue Munzer Professor in the School of Medicine. "There aren't that many generations available in which to evolve new, potentially advantageous traits. Under these conditions, it may be particularly important for mutations to occur at elevated rates, and to have sweeping effects." (my bold)
"When the researchers investigated known instances of adaptive changes in humans, they found that about half were due to mutations that also arise at elevated rates compared with more typical DNA letter changes.
"'What we're learning is that 'arrival of the fittest,' or the relative speed with which a potentially favorable mutation arises, can sometimes be as important as 'survival of the fittest,'" Kingsley said. "The mutation process itself has an important effect on the outcome, and the arrival of the mutation interacts with its effect on the fitness of the organism to bring about major changes in vertebrate evolution.'"
Comment: This research supports Behe's theory about loss if DNA driving evolution. Note the comment about small population size. There were never very many hominins, yet major changes occurred. Deletion appears to be a major concept, supporting the idea that original DNA had all the information needed for evolution. Note the DNA of an amoeba is larger than a human DNA but with just a few functional genes. Note my bold about bacteria
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by dhw, Saturday, January 05, 2019, 12:52 (2148 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Evolution can speed up by loss of fragile DNA segments a study in Stickleback fish shows:
https://phys.org/news/2019-01-strength-weakness-fragile-dna-regions.html
QUOTE: "When the last Ice Age ended, about 10,000 years ago, pockets of migratory ocean threespine sticklebacks colonized newly formed lakes and streams in coastal regions, and then evolved independently in response to their new local environments. As a result, many of these populations show significant differences in body structure. Marine sticklebacks, for example, have a hind fin with a large spine projecting down from their pelvic structure. In contrast, dozens of freshwater populations have lost that hind fin; its absence likely reduces their need for calcium and chances of being nabbed and eaten by hungry insects.” (dhw’s bold)
Previous studies in bacteria, mice and humans have indicated that these repeats are often associated with deletions of stretches of DNA. (David’s bold)
"Many vertebrates, including early humans, are dealing with a small population size and relatively long generation times…" (David’s bold)
DAVID’s comment: This research supports Behe's theory about loss if DNA driving evolution. Note the comment about small population size. There were never very many hominins, yet major changes occurred. Deletion appears to be a major concept, supporting the idea that original DNA had all the information needed for evolution. Note the DNA of an amoeba is larger than a human DNA but with just a few functional genes. Note my bold about bacteria.
Evolution is an ongoing process! You seem to have forgotten that the migratory ocean sticklebacks had already evolved their spines, but when they entered new environments, they needed different structures, which in some cases meant jettisoning structures which had evolved earlier. (Like pre-baleen whales' teeth.) I propose that the original DNA contained the ability to make these changes (the ability is the “information”, not the changes themselves, which = your 3.8 byo computer programme for every change). And yes indeed, small individual groups in different environments would explain why different structures evolved in order to cope with different environments. This is why I have proposed that a particular group of apes in a particular location may have decided (and most likely needed) to descend from the trees, whereas elsewhere their brothers had no problem.
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by David Turell , Saturday, January 05, 2019, 15:13 (2148 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Evolution can speed up by loss of fragile DNA segments a study in Stickleback fish shows:
https://phys.org/news/2019-01-strength-weakness-fragile-dna-regions.htmlQUOTE: "When the last Ice Age ended, about 10,000 years ago, pockets of migratory ocean threespine sticklebacks colonized newly formed lakes and streams in coastal regions, and then evolved independently in response to their new local environments. As a result, many of these populations show significant differences in body structure. Marine sticklebacks, for example, have a hind fin with a large spine projecting down from their pelvic structure. In contrast, dozens of freshwater populations have lost that hind fin; its absence likely reduces their need for calcium and chances of being nabbed and eaten by hungry insects.” (dhw’s bold)
Previous studies in bacteria, mice and humans have indicated that these repeats are often associated with deletions of stretches of DNA. (David’s bold)
"Many vertebrates, including early humans, are dealing with a small population size and relatively long generation times…" (David’s bold)
DAVID’s comment: This research supports Behe's theory about loss of DNA driving evolution. Note the comment about small population size. There were never very many hominins, yet major changes occurred. Deletion appears to be a major concept, supporting the idea that original DNA had all the information needed for evolution. Note the DNA of an amoeba is larger than a human DNA but with just a few functional genes. Note my bold about bacteria.
dhw: Evolution is an ongoing process! You seem to have forgotten that the migratory ocean sticklebacks had already evolved their spines, but when they entered new environments, they needed different structures, which in some cases meant jettisoning structures which had evolved earlier. (Like pre-baleen whales' teeth.) I propose that the original DNA contained the ability to make these changes (the ability is the “information”, not the changes themselves, which = your 3.8 byo computer programme for every change). And yes indeed, small individual groups in different environments would explain why different structures evolved in order to cope with different environments. This is why I have proposed that a particular group of apes in a particular location may have decided (and most likely needed) to descend from the trees, whereas elsewhere their brothers had no problem.
Of course evolution is ongoing. You totally miss the point of small groups and large changes in form. To repeat, a small group of hominins evolved very advanced changes in the human form and brain. Not millions of sticklebacks with new mutations and some changes. The issue is still chance vs. design. More to thee point why do amoeba have more DNA bases the we do? All the evidenced points to the 3.8 byo DNA being ready for evolution with information supplied by God.
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by dhw, Sunday, January 06, 2019, 10:44 (2148 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID’s comment: This research supports Behe's theory about loss of DNA driving evolution. Note the comment about small population size. There were never very many hominins, yet major changes occurred. Deletion appears to be a major concept, supporting the idea that original DNA had all the information needed for evolution. Note the DNA of an amoeba is larger than a human DNA but with just a few functional genes. Note my bold about bacteria.
dhw: Evolution is an ongoing process! You seem to have forgotten that the migratory ocean sticklebacks had already evolved their spines, but when they entered new environments, they needed different structures, which in some cases meant jettisoning structures which had evolved earlier. (Like pre-baleen whales' teeth.) I propose that the original DNA contained the ability to make these changes (the ability is the “information”, not the changes themselves, which = your 3.8 byo computer programme for every change). And yes indeed, small individual groups in different environments would explain why different structures evolved in order to cope with different environments. This is why I have proposed that a particular group of apes in a particular location may have decided (and most likely needed) to descend from the trees, whereas elsewhere their brothers had no problem. [I should have said brothers and sisters.]
DAVID: Of course evolution is ongoing. You totally miss the point of small groups and large changes in form. To repeat, a small group of hominins evolved very advanced changes in the human form and brain.
How have I missed the point? That IS the point of my last example!
DAVID: Not millions of sticklebacks with new mutations and some changes. The issue is still chance vs. design.
No it isn’t. You claimed that the sticklebacks supported Behe’s theory that loss of DNA drives evolution. I have explained that in some cases evolution will require the jettisoning of previously evolved structures that are no longer suited to the new environment.
DAVID: More to the point why do amoeba have more DNA bases the we do? All the evidenced points to the 3.8 byo DNA being ready for evolution with information supplied by God.
I don’t know enough about the subject to discuss amoeba, but of course DNA must have been ready for evolution from the start, or evolution would never have happened. That does not mean that your God provided the first cells with detailed programmes to be passed down through billions of years and organisms and environments for every single innovation, econiche, lifestyle and natural wonder in the history of life! The “information” – as you agreed earlier – could have been in the form of a mechanism capable of autonomous design, which would make its own changes according to the requirements and/or opportunities offered by changing conditions.
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by David Turell , Sunday, January 06, 2019, 18:54 (2147 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID’s comment: This research supports Behe's theory about loss of DNA driving evolution. Note the comment about small population size. There were never very many hominins, yet major changes occurred. Deletion appears to be a major concept, supporting the idea that original DNA had all the information needed for evolution. Note the DNA of an amoeba is larger than a human DNA but with just a few functional genes. Note my bold about bacteria.
dhw: Evolution is an ongoing process! You seem to have forgotten that the migratory ocean sticklebacks had already evolved their spines, but when they entered new environments, they needed different structures, which in some cases meant jettisoning structures which had evolved earlier. (Like pre-baleen whales' teeth.) I propose that the original DNA contained the ability to make these changes (the ability is the “information”, not the changes themselves, which = your 3.8 byo computer programme for every change). And yes indeed, small individual groups in different environments would explain why different structures evolved in order to cope with different environments. This is why I have proposed that a particular group of apes in a particular location may have decided (and most likely needed) to descend from the trees, whereas elsewhere their brothers had no problem. [I should have said brothers and sisters.]
DAVID: Of course evolution is ongoing. You totally miss the point of small groups and large changes in form. To repeat, a small group of hominins evolved very advanced changes in the human form and brain.
dhw: How have I missed the point? That IS the point of my last example!
Yes you have. A tiny number of existent hominins made enormous changes to advance the human form and brain in short geologic time. Where did the large number of mutations come from your small group of apes on the ground? At one point it is thought there were only 10,000 pre-sapiens living! As for 3.8 byo pre-programming, it must an included a system for necessary minor adaptations within a species as I've described.
DAVID: Not millions of sticklebacks with new mutations and some changes. The issue is still chance vs. design.dhw: No it isn’t. You claimed that the sticklebacks supported Behe’s theory that loss of DNA drives evolution. I have explained that in some cases evolution will require the jettisoning of previously evolved structures that are no longer suited to the new environment.
Same point as Behe. Jettisoning advances evolution.
DAVID: More to the point why do amoeba have more DNA bases the we do? All the evidenced points to the 3.8 byo DNA being ready for evolution with information supplied by God.dhw: I don’t know enough about the subject to discuss amoeba, but of course DNA must have been ready for evolution from the start, or evolution would never have happened. That does not mean that your God provided the first cells with detailed programmes to be passed down through billions of years and organisms and environments for every single innovation, econiche, lifestyle and natural wonder in the history of life! The “information” – as you agreed earlier – could have been in the form of a mechanism capable of autonomous design, which would make its own changes according to the requirements and/or opportunities offered by changing conditions.
I never agreed to autonomous design, and you know it. Design with guidelines, in existing DNA.
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by dhw, Monday, January 07, 2019, 11:42 (2147 days ago) @ David Turell
I am combining this thread with the one on "Genome complexity" to avoid unnecessary repetition.
DAVID: The 3.8 byo program allows the organisms to modify their DNA only for adaptations to immediate needs which provide minor changes within species. That is how I view Shapiro. Elsewhere I have provided evidence for the initial program completely providing everything (all info) from the beginning.
dhw: This makes no sense. Presumably your first sentence refers to Shapiro’s hypothesis of “natural genetic engineering” (and my hypothesis of cellular intelligence as the designer of innovations), and not to your 3.8 byo programme.
DAVID: The preprogramming allows for animals to make minor adaptations within the same species by adjusting the DNA in genes as necessary for changing circumstances. […] You and Shapiro are not describing a speciation method, only a minor adaptation ability.
Again trying to clarify: The 3.8 byo programme is your hypothesis, not mine. Your alternative is dabbling. So now are you telling us that your God preprogrammed nothing but minor adaptations 3.8 billion years ago, and dabbled every single major innovation? In my alternative hypothesis (which I take to be similar to Shapiro’s), the cells autonomously design their own innovations. And I keep agreeing that we don’t have the evidence that it can design major innovations, which is why it is only a hypothesis like your own equally unproven speculations.
DAVID: Of course environment plays a huge role as when mammals entered water permanently, but design for survival is required. Note design is primary.
dhw: I don’t know what you mean by “primary”. Are you referring to your theory that your God changed legs to fins before sending pre-whales into the water, all for the sake of complexity - not survival - although fins are no more complex than legs?
DAVID: Of course, primary always means first, and in this case design is first.
So let’s be clear what this means: your God preprogrammed or dabbled pre-whale legs to become fins, monarch butterflies to fly thousands of miles north/south, east/west, cuttlefish to camouflage themselves, 50,000 spiders to design different webs etc. etc. - all BEFORE these life forms and millions of others were exposed to the conditions which either necessitated or allowed the changes. He therefore knew about (or even organized) every single environmental change, local and global, before it happened, and did all this so that the different life forms could become more complex and eat each other for 3.5+ billion years before he designed the only thing he wanted to design: you and me.
dhw: […] small individual groups in different environments would explain why different structures evolved in order to cope with different environments. This is why I have proposed that a particular group of apes in a particular location may have decided (and most likely needed) to descend from the trees, whereas elsewhere their brothers had no problem. [I should have said brothers and sisters.]
DAVID: You totally miss the point of small groups and large changes in form. To repeat, a small group of hominins evolved very advanced changes in the human form and brain.
dhw: How have I missed the point? That IS the point of my last example!
DAVID: Yes you have. A tiny number of existent hominins made enormous changes to advance the human form and brain in short geologic time. Where did the large number of mutations come from your small group of apes on the ground? At one point it is thought there were only 10,000 pre-sapiens living![...]
See my bold above for the small group. Did you want me to say "tiny" instead of small? Why do you need a large group to make large mutations? You ask where the mutations came from? Once more, see above for your own hypothesis (God’s preprogramming or dabbling before they left the trees) and for mine and Sheldrake’s (natural genetic engineering), with the cells autonomously changing the body in order to adjust to new conditions.
DAVID: Not millions of sticklebacks with new mutations and some changes. The issue is still chance vs. design.
dhw: No it isn’t. You claimed that the sticklebacks supported Behe’s theory that loss of DNA drives evolution. I have explained that in some cases evolution will require the jettisoning of previously evolved structures that are no longer suited to the new environment.
DAVID: Same point as Behe. Jettisoning advances evolution.
There is no advance if sticklebacks lose a fin, or pre-baleen whales lose their teeth! They are simply different forms of stickleback/whale using a different method of survival.
DAVID: I never agreed to autonomous design, and you know it. Design with guidelines, in existing DNA.
One of the problems in our exchanges is that sometimes you say one thing and then later say the opposite. That is why we need these constant clarifications. Under “Genome complexity”, 3 January at 19.03:
dhw: The question is…whether your God’s “information/instructions used by the cell” means a specific, 3.8 billion-year-old programme for every single change in the history of evolution […] or a mechanism which enables the cell to change itself autonomously…
DAVID: The only issue here is I believe God gave the cells that mechanism.
What mechanism were you referring to?
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by David Turell , Tuesday, January 08, 2019, 22:10 (2145 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Again trying to clarify: The 3.8 byo programme is your hypothesis, not mine. Your alternative is dabbling. So now are you telling us that your God preprogrammed nothing but minor adaptations 3.8 billion years ago, and dabbled every single major innovation? In my alternative hypothesis (which I take to be similar to Shapiro’s), the cells autonomously design their own innovations. And I keep agreeing that we don’t have the evidence that it can design major innovations, which is why it is only a hypothesis like your own equally unproven speculations.
we differ completely in that I am sure design is required for each advanced species.
dhw: So let’s be clear what this means: your God preprogrammed or dabbled pre-whale legs to become fins, monarch butterflies to fly thousands of miles north/south, east/west, cuttlefish to camouflage themselves, 50,000 spiders to design different webs etc. etc. - all BEFORE these life forms and millions of others were exposed to the conditions which either necessitated or allowed the changes. He therefore knew about (or even organized) every single environmental change, local and global, before it happened, and did all this so that the different life forms could become more complex and eat each other for 3.5+ billion years before he designed the only thing he wanted to design: you and me.
A good summary of my view, if this all refers to speciation.
DAVID: You totally miss the point of small groups and large changes in form. To repeat, a small group of hominins evolved very advanced changes in the human form and brain.dhw: How have I missed the point? That IS the point of my last example!
DAVID: Yes you have. A tiny number of existent hominins made enormous changes to advance the human form and brain in short geologic time. Where did the large number of mutations come from your small group of apes on the ground? At one point it is thought there were only 10,000 pre-sapiens living![...]
dhw: See my bold above for the small group. Did you want me to say "tiny" instead of small? Why do you need a large group to make large mutations?
The point is simple: if mutations cause speciation and have to occur by chance, a small of group of hominins with a new generation every 18-20 years is extremely unlikely to have produced the body form and brain changes in the short geological time we know happened.
DAVID: Same point as Behe. Jettisoning advances evolution.
dhw: There is no advance if sticklebacks lose a fin, or pre-baleen whales lose their teeth! They are simply different forms of stickleback/whale using a different method of survival.
Those are not tiny modifications by any means but major designed changes. Of course Behe is on point.
DAVID: I never agreed to autonomous design, and you know it. Design with guidelines, in existing DNA.One of the problems in our exchanges is that sometimes you say one thing and then later say the opposite. That is why we need these constant clarifications. Under “Genome complexity”, 3 January at 19.03:
dhw: The question is…whether your God’s “information/instructions used by the cell” means a specific, 3.8 billion-year-old programme for every single change in the history of evolution […] or a mechanism which enables the cell to change itself autonomously…
DAVID: The only issue here is I believe God gave the cells that mechanism.
dhw: What mechanism were you referring to?
Same old answer. I don't change. Cells have (per Shapiro) the ability to make small modifications to their activities by editing their DNA, an ability given by God's design. They cannot create their own speciation by design.
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by dhw, Wednesday, January 09, 2019, 12:18 (2145 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: […] the 3.8 byo program allows the organisms to modify their DNA only for adaptations.
dhw: […] are you telling us that your God programmed nothing but minor adaptations…and dabbled every single major innovation?
DAVID: We differ completely in that I am sure design is required for each advanced species.
Please say whether my interpretation of the first remark is correct. I agree that design is required (as opposed to chance), and as you well know, I propose a (possibly God-given) mechanism for autonomous change through intelligent cells/cell communities.
dhw: So let’s be clear what this means: your God preprogrammed or dabbled pre-whale legs to become fins, monarch butterflies to fly thousands of miles north/south, east/west, cuttlefish to camouflage themselves, 50,000 spiders to design different webs etc. etc. - all BEFORE these life forms and millions of others were exposed to the conditions which either necessitated or allowed the changes. He therefore knew about (or even organized) every single environmental change, local and global, before it happened, and did all this so that the different life forms could become more complex and eat each other for 3.5+ billion years before he designed the only thing he wanted to design: you and me.
DAVID: A good summary of my view, if this all refers to speciation.
No, it refers to speciation, econiches, lifestyles and natural wonders (the archer fish is the latest of these:”Perhaps designed by God makes sense”), all of which you claim were specially designed by your God to enable organisms to eat one another etc., as above.
DAVID: You totally miss the point of small groups and large changes in form. To repeat, a small group of hominins evolved very advanced changes in the human form and brain.
dhw: How have I missed the point? That IS the point of my last example!
DAVID: Yes you have. A tiny number of existent hominins made enormous changes to advance the human form and brain in short geologic time. Where did the large number of mutations come from your small group of apes on the ground? At one point it is thought there were only 10,000 pre-sapiens living![...]
dhw: See my bold above for the small group. Did you want me to say "tiny" instead of small? Why do you need a large group to make large mutations?
DAVID: The point is simple: if mutations cause speciation and have to occur by chance, a small of group of hominins with a new generation every 18-20 years is extremely unlikely to have produced the body form and brain changes in the short geological time we know happened.
Why do you keep harping on about chance? We have long since agreed that it was not by chance. Your hypothesis is that God dabbled with pre-human anatomy before the small group left the trees, and you also keep harping on about other apes not having made the changes. I propose that local conditions led to a small group descending from the trees (no need for their brothers and sisters to change) and life on the ground triggered the changes made by their intelligent cell communities to enable them . Nothing to do with chance, and nothing to do with the size of the group, although once more: neither of these hypotheses have been proved.
dhw: […] in some cases evolution will require the jettisoning of previously evolved structures that are no longer suited to the new environment.
DAVID: Same point as Behe. Jettisoning advances evolution.
dhw: There is no advance if sticklebacks lose a fin, or pre-baleen whales lose their teeth! They are simply different forms of stickleback/whale using a different method of survival.
DAVID: Those are not tiny modifications by any means but major designed changes. Of course Behe is on point.
Are you really telling me that freshwater sticklebacks are an advance on ocean sticklebacks, and toothless pre-baleen whales are an advance on whales with teeth, not to mention your claim that such changes were designed to advance complexity and not survivability?
Dhw: One of the problems in our exchanges is that sometimes you say one thing and then later say the opposite. That is why we need these constant clarifications. Under “Genome complexity”, 3 January at 19.03: The question is…whether your God’s “information/instructions used by the cell” means a specific, 3.8 billion-year-old programme for every single change in the history of evolution […] or a mechanism which enables the cell to change itself autonomously…
DAVID: The only issue here is I believe God gave the cells that mechanism.
dhw: What mechanism were you referring to?
DAVID: Same old answer. I don't change. Cells have (per Shapiro) the ability to make small modifications to their activities by editing their DNA, an ability given by God's design. They cannot create their own speciation by design.
So please tell me what mechanism you were referring to when you said the only issue was that you believe God gave the cells “that mechanism”. If you wish to withdraw the statement, then by all means do so, and revert to your 3.8 byo programme (plus dabbling). I am only asking for clarification.
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 09, 2019, 15:28 (2144 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: […] the 3.8 byo program allows the organisms to modify their DNA only for adaptations.
dhw: […] are you telling us that your God programmed nothing but minor adaptations…and dabbled every single major innovation?
DAVID: We differ completely in that I am sure design is required for each advanced species.
dhw: Please say whether my interpretation of the first remark is correct. I agree that design is required (as opposed to chance), and as you well know, I propose a (possibly God-given) mechanism for autonomous change through intelligent cells/cell communities.
My view is still that God creates major speciation by one method or another, either having it built into the original 3.8 byo DNA with coded changes or perhaps by deletion as Behe is saying. I've viewed dabbles as wolf/dog changes which humans did in this case, but God did it before humans stepped into the process
dhw: See my bold above for the small group. Did you want me to say "tiny" instead of small? Why do you need a large group to make large mutations?DAVID: The point is simple: if mutations cause speciation and have to occur by chance, a small of group of hominins with a new generation every 18-20 years is extremely unlikely to have produced the body form and brain changes in the short geological time we know happened.
dhw: Why do you keep harping on about chance? We have long since agreed that it was not by chance. ...I propose that local conditions led to a small group descending from the trees (no need for their brothers and sisters to change) and life on the ground triggered the changes made by their intelligent cell communities to enable them . Nothing to do with chance, and nothing to do with the size of the group, although once more: neither of these hypotheses have been proved.
It has everything to do with the size of the group. From ape to erectus in two-three million years ( a moment in the grand scheme of 3.8 billion) means rapid fire mutations, all working together for the advance. I'm not arguing about chance. I'm claiming only deliberate design fits, and not by brainless cell committees.
Dhw: One of the problems in our exchanges is that sometimes you say one thing and then later say the opposite. That is why we need these constant clarifications. Under “Genome complexity”, 3 January at 19.03: The question is…whether your God’s “information/instructions used by the cell” means a specific, 3.8 billion-year-old programme for every single change in the history of evolution […] or a mechanism which enables the cell to change itself autonomously…
DAVID: The only issue here is I believe God gave the cells that mechanism.
dhw: What mechanism were you referring to?
DAVID: Same old answer. I don't change. Cells have (per Shapiro) the ability to make small modifications to their activities by editing their DNA, an ability given by God's design. They cannot create their own speciation by design.
dhw: So please tell me what mechanism you were referring to when you said the only issue was that you believe God gave the cells “that mechanism”. If you wish to withdraw the statement, then by all means do so, and revert to your 3.8 byo programme (plus dabbling). I am only asking for clarification.
'That mechanism' is Shapiro's result. Cells can modify their DNA for minor adaptions to changes in requirements or stimuli. But they are still the same cells. What is not clear?
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by dhw, Thursday, January 10, 2019, 13:26 (2143 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: […] the 3.8 byo program allows the organisms to modify their DNA only for adaptations.
dhw: […] are you telling us that your God programmed nothing but minor adaptations…and dabbled every single major innovation?
DAVID: My view is still that God creates major speciation by one method or another, either having it built into the original 3.8 byo DNA with coded changes or perhaps by deletion as Behe is saying. I've viewed dabbles as wolf/dog changes which humans did in this case, but God did it before humans stepped into the process.
Even more confusing. You now have dabbles for adaptations, whereas in your original comment above, it was the 3.8 byo programme that only allowed for adaptations, and now the 3.8 byo programme apparently contains every single major change from bacteria through to humans, or alternatively the first cells contained DNA for eyes, ears, teeth, sexual organs, spikes, fins, legs, trunks, human pelvises, whale pelvises etc., and just discarded all these as needed, or rather as not needed. And you call my own hypothesis a “monstrous extrapolation”!
dhw: Why do you need a large group to make large mutations?
DAVID: The point is simple: if mutations cause speciation and have to occur by chance (BOLD), a small of group of hominins with a new generation every 18-20 years is extremely unlikely to have produced the body form and brain changes in the short geological time we know happened. (dhw’s bold)
dhw: Why do you keep harping on about chance? We have long since agreed that it was not by chance. ...I propose that local conditions led to a small group descending from the trees (no need for their brothers and sisters to change) and life on the ground triggered the changes made by their intelligent cell communities to enable them [to cope with the new environment – somehow this was omitted from my post]. Nothing to do with chance, and nothing to do with the size of the group, although once more: neither of these hypotheses have been proved.
DAVID: It has everything to do with the size of the group. From ape to erectus in two-three million years ( a moment in the grand scheme of 3.8 billion) means rapid fire mutations, all working together for the advance. I'm not arguing about chance. I'm claiming only deliberate design fits, and not by brainless cell committees.
See my bold above for chance, and this still has nothing to do with the size of the group. You are not just claiming “only deliberate design fits” – you have put forward a very specific, though somewhat confusing theory of design outlined above: divine dabbles (originally the 3.8 byo programme) for minor changes, preprogramming or deletion for major changes.
Dhw: One of the problems in our exchanges is that sometimes you say one thing and then later say the opposite. That is why we need these constant clarifications. Under “Genome complexity”, 3 January at 19.03: The question is…whether your God’s “information/instructions used by the cell” means a specific, 3.8 billion-year-old programme for every single change in the history of evolution […] or a mechanism which enables the cell to change itself autonomously…
DAVID: The only issue here is I believe God gave the cells that mechanism.
dhw: What mechanism were you referring to?
DAVID: 'That mechanism' is Shapiro's result. Cells can modify their DNA for minor adaptions to changes in requirements or stimuli. But they are still the same cells. What is not clear?
If you believe your God gave the cells the mechanism which enables the cell to change itself autonomously, you accept the autonomous mechanism! But you don’t, so let’s just forget what you wrote.
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by David Turell , Thursday, January 10, 2019, 19:39 (2143 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: My view is still that God creates major speciation by one method or another, either having it built into the original 3.8 byo DNA with coded changes or perhaps by deletion as Behe is saying. I've viewed dabbles as wolf/dog changes which humans did in this case, but God did it before humans stepped into the process.
dhw: Even more confusing. You now have dabbles for adaptations, whereas in your original comment above, it was the 3.8 byo programme that only allowed for adaptations, and now the 3.8 byo programme apparently contains every single major change from bacteria through to humans, or alternatively the first cells contained DNA for eyes, ears, teeth, sexual organs, spikes, fins, legs, trunks, human pelvises, whale pelvises etc., and just discarded all these as needed, or rather as not needed. And you call my own hypothesis a “monstrous extrapolation”!
All I have ever said is the original DNA may have contained all the info for evolution. And minor adaptations within species may be done with guidelines by the species itself.
dhw: Why do you need a large group to make large mutations?DAVID: It has everything to do with the size of the group. From ape to erectus in two-three million years ( a moment in the grand scheme of 3.8 billion) means rapid fire mutations, all working together for the advance. I'm not arguing about chance. I'm claiming only deliberate design fits, and not by brainless cell committees.
dhw: See my bold above for chance, and this still has nothing to do with the size of the group. You are not just claiming “only deliberate design fits” – you have put forward a very specific, though somewhat confusing theory of design outlined above: divine dabbles (originally the 3.8 byo programme) for minor changes, preprogramming or deletion for major changes.
A non-answer! The issue is the need for rapid-fire mutations to make hominins so quickly!
DAVID: The only issue here is I believe God gave the cells that mechanism.dhw: What mechanism were you referring to?
DAVID: 'That mechanism' is Shapiro's result. Cells can modify their DNA for minor adaptions to changes in requirements or stimuli. But they are still the same cells. What is not clear?
dhw: If you believe your God gave the cells the mechanism which enables the cell to change itself autonomously, you accept the autonomous mechanism! But you don’t, so let’s just forget what you wrote.
you know fully well I support a mechanism with guidelines, semi-autonomous.
Evolution: a different view with loss of complexity
by David Turell , Friday, January 11, 2019, 00:42 (2143 days ago) @ David Turell
A new organism is classified with a more simple group:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/xxx
"Japanese scientists have finally placed some strange-looking creatures known as arrow worms on the evolutionary tree, and the findings may be more significant than appearances suggest.
"A research team from the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology Graduate University has reported that the predatory marine worms, also known as chaetognaths (which means "bristle-jaw"), are not, as had been suspected, part of a large group, or clade, which includes molluscs, segmented worms and flatworms.
"Instead, they belong to a sister clade – and that, the researchers suggest in a paper published in the journal Current Biology, challenges the classical view that complex organisms evolve from simple ancestors by gaining new traits over time.
“'Arrow worms are predators, they have nervous systems, they have developed sensory organs; but the other organisms they're grouped with are much simpler," says molecular geneticist and first author Ferdinand Marlétaz.
“'If you place arrow worms here, it means there was probably a lot of independent simplification, rather than the independent emergence of complexity.”
"There are about 200 species or arrow worm, ranging in size from a millimetre to 12 centimetres, and they share many morphological and developmental traits with other organisms, which has made their history difficult to trace.
"However, when Marlétaz and colleagues gathered data from 10 arrow worm species collected from different areas of the Atlantic Ocean and compared it to publicly available data from other animals, they noticed that “bristle jaws” share a unique jaw structure with a collection of microscopic organisms called rotifers, gnathostomulids and micrognathozoans.
“'I was a little bit surprised,” admits Marlétaz. “We still don't fully understand this association with rotifers and the others. That will be the focus of future research.”
"Chaetognaths have been around since the Cambrian Period, which ended almost 500 million years ago, and despite their low profile play an important part in marine food chains around the world."
Comment: Devolution instead of increasing complexity. Why not? Advance by simplification.
Note the comment about food chains. Always important in the diversity.
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by dhw, Friday, January 11, 2019, 12:59 (2142 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: […] the 3.8 byo program allows the organisms to modify their DNA only for adaptations.
And:
DAVID: My view is still that God creates major speciation by one method or another, either having it built into the original 3.8 byo DNA with coded changes or perhaps by deletion as Behe is saying. I've viewed dabbles as wolf/dog changes which humans did in this case, but God did it before humans stepped into the process.
dhw: Even more confusing. You now have dabbles for adaptations, whereas in your original comment above, it was the 3.8 byo programme that only allowed for adaptations, and now the 3.8 byo programme apparently contains every single major change from bacteria through to humans, or alternatively the first cells contained DNA for eyes, ears, teeth, sexual organs, spikes, fins, legs, trunks, human pelvises, whale pelvises etc., and just discarded all these as needed, or rather as not needed. And you call my own hypothesis a “monstrous extrapolation”!
DAVID: All I have ever said is the original DNA may have contained all the info for evolution. And minor adaptations within species may be done with guidelines by the species itself.
Then please reread your two comments at the head of this post. What do you mean by the “info”? What is the 3.8 byo programme for? First you said it only allowed for adaptations (i.e. not innovations), and then you said major speciation was “built into” the original DNA. What else could this mean other than a programme for every innovation from bacteria to humans, taking in every innovation for fish, birds, reptiles, mammals etc.? Your deletion alternative can only mean that the first cells contained DNA for all the bits and pieces I have listed, as now bolded.(For "guidelines" see below.)
dhw: Why do you need a large group to make large mutations?
DAVID: It has everything to do with the size of the group. From ape to erectus in two-three million years ( a moment in the grand scheme of 3.8 billion) means rapid fire mutations, all working together for the advance. I'm not arguing about chance. I'm claiming only deliberate design fits, and not by brainless cell committees.
dhw: See my bold above for chance, and this still has nothing to do with the size of the group. You are not just claiming “only deliberate design fits” – you have put forward a very specific, though somewhat confusing theory of design outlined above: divine dabbles (originally the 3.8 byo programme) for minor changes, preprogramming or deletion for major changes.
DAVID: A non-answer! The issue is the need for rapid-fire mutations to make hominins so quickly!
Right, nothing to do with chance and nothing to do with the size of the group – your initial objections. Now it is speed. I have summarized your explanation (divine dabbling, preprogramming or deletion). As you well know, my own hypothesis (as unproven as yours), is the perhaps God-given, autonomous ability of cells/cell communities to restructure themselves in order to improve their chances of survival when faced with new conditions.
dhw: If you believe your God gave the cells the mechanism which enables the cell to change itself autonomously, you accept the autonomous mechanism! But you don’t, so let’s just forget what you wrote.
DAVID: …you know fully well I support a mechanism with guidelines, semi-autonomous.
When questioned, you fall back on nebulous “guidelines” and semi-autonomy. If your God preprogrammed or dabbled the changes that led to speciation, do please tell us which half of the process was autonomous, i.e. was the independently intelligent decision-making of the organisms concerned.
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by David Turell , Friday, January 11, 2019, 22:45 (2142 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: All I have ever said is the original DNA may have contained all the info for evolution. And minor adaptations within species may be done with guidelines by the species itself.
dhw:Then please reread your two comments at the head of this post. What do you mean by the “info”?
As explained over and over: The DNA genome is a code which provides information and has many other helpful layers we do not fully understand at this time to run life.
dhw: What is the 3.8 byo programme for? First you said it only allowed for adaptations (i.e. not innovations), and then you said major speciation was “built into” the original DNA. What else could this mean other than a programme for every innovation from bacteria to humans, taking in every innovation for fish, birds, reptiles, mammals etc.?
This is one possibility, that everything needed for the whole process of evolution is contained in the initial genome. I used the idea of dabble that God might do a course correct and add information
dhw: Your deletion alternative can only mean that the first cells contained DNA for all the bits and pieces I have listed, as now bolded.(For "guidelines" see below.)
The deletion idea from Behe is simply the reserve of that possibility, in that info is simply taken out of the process. One or the other is very likely a correct analysis.
dhw: Why do you need a large group to make large mutations?DAVID: It has everything to do with the size of the group. From ape to erectus in two-three million years ( a moment in the grand scheme of 3.8 billion) means rapid fire mutations, all working together for the advance. I'm not arguing about chance. I'm claiming only deliberate design fits, and not by brainless cell committees.
dhw: See my bold above for chance, and this still has nothing to do with the size of the group. You are not just claiming “only deliberate design fits” – you have put forward a very specific, though somewhat confusing theory of design outlined above: divine dabbles (originally the 3.8 byo programme) for minor changes, preprogramming or deletion for major changes.
DAVID: A non-answer! The issue is the need for rapid-fire mutations to make hominins so quickly!
dhw: Right, nothing to do with chance and nothing to do with the size of the group – your initial objections. Now it is speed. I have summarized your explanation (divine dabbling, preprogramming or deletion). As you well know, my own hypothesis (as unproven as yours), is the perhaps God-given, autonomous ability of cells/cell communities to restructure themselves in order to improve their chances of survival when faced with new conditions.
Again avoiding the point of small group size. To go from ape to erectus takes massive mutational changes. If as suspected 10,000 erectus existed and previous antecedent hominins were in similar amounts, and if we use the known helpful mutations rates which are slow, and if we assume a new generation every 18-20 years how did erectus and sapiens appear so quickly in geologic time of six-eight million years? Based also on the fact that apes didn't need to bother to change, what drove human development? Not chance or natural forces, because it is demonstrably too fast for those influences.
dhw: If you believe your God gave the cells the mechanism which enables the cell to change itself autonomously, you accept the autonomous mechanism! But you don’t, so let’s just forget what you wrote.DAVID: …you know fully well I support a mechanism with guidelines, semi-autonomous.
dhw: When questioned, you fall back on nebulous “guidelines” and semi-autonomy. If your God preprogrammed or dabbled the changes that led to speciation, do please tell us which half of the process was autonomous, i.e. was the independently intelligent decision-making of the organisms concerned.
Never nebulous: I believe organismal modification is adaptations within existing species, never leading to speciation, therefore within God's guidelines for each species.
Evolution: a different view with loss of DNA segments
by David Turell , Sunday, March 27, 2022, 17:09 (971 days ago) @ David Turell
Vampire bats live on blood alone:
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/vampire-bat-lost-genes-blood-mammal
"Surviving on blood alone is no picnic. But a handful of genetic tweaks may have helped vampire bats evolve to become the only mammal known to feed exclusively on the stuff.
"These bats have developed a range of physiological and behavioral strategies to exist on a blood-only diet. The genetic picture behind this sanguivorous behavior, however, is still blurry. But 13 genes that the bats appear to have lost over time could underpin some of the behavior, researchers report March 25 in Science Advances.
“'Sometimes losing genes in evolutionary time frames can actually be adaptive or beneficial,” says Michael Hiller, a genomicist now at the Senckenberg Society for Nature Research in Frankfurt.
"Hiller and his colleagues pieced together the genetic instruction book of the common vampire bat (Desmodus rotundus) and compared it with the genomes of 26 other bat species, including six from the same family as vampire bats. The team then searched for genes in D. rotundus that had either been lost entirely or inactivated through mutations.
"Of the 13 missing genes, three had been previously reported in vampire bats. These genes are associated with sweet and bitter taste receptors in other animals, meaning vampire bats probably have a diminished sense of taste — all the better for drinking blood. The other 10 lost genes are newly identified in the bats, and the researchers propose several ideas about how the absence of these genes could support a blood-rich diet.
***
"Whether the diet caused these changes, or vice versa, isn’t known. Either way, it was probably a gradual process over millions of years, Hiller says. “Maybe they started drinking more and more blood, and then you have time to better adapt to this very challenging diet.'”
Comment: pure Behe. Evolution advances with loss of genes.
Evolution: losing legs to make a snake
by David Turell , Monday, March 28, 2022, 20:38 (970 days ago) @ David Turell
A new fossil shows us:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2313779-armless-fossil-sheds-light-on-how-animals-...
"Less than 100 million years after vertebrates first grew legs, some of their descendants had evolved to lose them again, fossils reveal. The discovery shows that land vertebrates first began to evolve a snake-like form at least 308 million years ago.
***
"The animal has been dubbed Nagini mazonense, representing a new genus and species, and it belongs to a group called the molgophids. It may have grown to be about 10 centimetres long, and had a snake-like body with no forelimbs. It also lacked the bony structures that support the attachment of forelimbs to the body, known as the pectoral girdle.
"However, N. mazonense did have a pair of small but fully formed back legs, with four toes on each foot.
"Along with the nearly complete skeletons, which are around 308 million years old, there were also impressions of soft tissue, revealing that N. mazonense had a round snout and a long body with about 85 vertebrae and ribs. There were no signs of soft tissue in the area where forelimbs might be expected, says Mann.
“'They’re relying on body-based locomotion like sidewinding and not really relying on limb-propelled locomotion anymore,” says Mann.
"It is a fascinating discovery, says Rolf Zeller at the University of Basel in Switzerland. “Snake embryos, such as pythons, still form hindlimb buds that disappear during development,” he says. “The discovery of an ancient snake-like fossil lacking forelimbs but retaining hindlimbs is a fantastic find, because it reveals the existence of transitional forms before complete limb loss during evolution.”
"Modern snakes also lost their upper limbs and pectoral girdle first, about 170 million years ago, he adds. But N. mazonense and other molgophids aren’t direct ancestors of modern snakes, says Mann. “They’re sort of an early experimental lineage of reptiles.'”
Comment: based on our 'loss of genes to advance evolution' discussion loss of limbs could simply be gene deletion
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Wednesday, May 20, 2020, 15:31 (1647 days ago) @ David Turell
A Darwin author suggests Behe was correct:
https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-striking-admission-that-michael-behe-was-right/
Abstract:
"Evolutionary novelty is difficult to define. It typically involves shifts in organismal or biochemical phenotypes that can be seen as qualitative as well as quantitative changes. In laboratory-based experimental evolution of novel phenotypes and the human domestication of crops, the majority of the mutations that lead to adaptation are loss-of-function mutations that impair or eliminate the function of genes rather than gain-of-function mutations that increase or qualitatively alter the function of proteins. Here, I speculate that easier access to loss-of-function mutations has led them to play a major role in the adaptive radiations that occur when populations have access to many unoccupied ecological niches. I discuss five possible objections to this claim: that genes can only survive if they confer benefits to the organisms that bear them, antagonistic pleiotropy, the importance of pre-existing genetic variation in populations, the danger that adaptation by breaking genes will, over long times, cause organisms to run out of genes, and the recessive nature of most loss-of-function mutations. "
https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0960-9822%2820%2930479-6
Comment: The PDF on this site makes it hard to read as it is very small. But here is a Darwinist suggesting Behe may be correct, that advances in evolution are due to destruction of DNA genes.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Tuesday, September 01, 2020, 17:29 (1543 days ago) @ David Turell
Another article:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/by-losing-genes-life-often-evolved-more-complexity-20200...
"Two surprising analyses that appeared in Nature Ecology & Evolution early this year have hammered home just how inessential genes can be, and how creatively evolution can deal with losing them. By analyzing hundreds of genomes from across the animal kingdom, researchers in Spain and the United Kingdom showed that a startling degree of gene loss pervades the tree of life.
"Their results suggest that even early animals had relatively complex genomes because of an unprecedented spurt of gene duplication early in life’s history. Later, as lineages of animals evolved into different phyla with distinct body plans, many of their genes began to disappear, and gene loss continued to be a major factor in evolution thereafter. In fact, the loss of genes seems to have helped many groups of organisms split away from their ancestors and triumph over new environmental challenges.
***
"In a recent study that looked at different forms of genes in Arabidopsis plants from all over the globe, researchers in China and California found that about 66% of protein-coding genes had broken versions, known as loss-of-function variants. Surprisingly, 1% of these less functional genes were under positive evolutionary selection — that is, the plants with the missing or broken genes thrived better than those with working versions. These results validate the intriguing idea, proposed by the genetics researcher Maynard Olson of the University of Washington back in 1999, that “less is more”: Sometimes, losing a gene can be adaptive.
***
"One of the best examples of adaptive gene loss in animals can be seen in cetaceans (the order of aquatic mammals including whales and dolphins), which have lost 85 protein-coding genes seen in other mammals, as Hiller reported last year. Many of these losses are probably neutral, but some seem linked to diving-related adaptations, like the narrowing of blood vessels during diving. One of the lost genes, KLK8, is interesting because it is involved in the development both of sweat glands in the skin and of the hippocampus in the brain; cetaceans lost it during their transition from land back to water. The loss of this gene is linked to the development of a thicker epidermis and the loss of hair (hair is not adaptive in aquatic environments, where it creates drag and does not preserve body heat as it does in terrestrial animals).
***
"Yeasts are not alone in their metabolic virtuosity. Dolphins and whales, Old World fruit bats, and elephants — three lineages with relatively big brains — have all lost a gene, HMGCS2, required for ketogenesis, a metabolic process that scientists had thought was required to support the activity and growth of large, energy-hungry brains. Brain cells consume glucose, but when that is unavailable, they fuel themselves with ketone bodies from fatty acids. HGMCS2, the enzyme that converts fatty acids into ketone bodies, becomes especially important during fasting.
***
"How elephants and cetaceans feed their hungry brains without ketogenesis is still unknown, but they seem to have evolved alternative ways to address the physiological challenge. “You wouldn’t have known this is an exceptional lineage without having observed that this key gene is lost,” Hiller said.
***
"More generally, the pervasiveness of gene loss in the tree of life points to an inversion of a classic theme in evolutionary developmental biology. In the 1970s and ’80s, “the big shock was to find that flies and humans use the same genes,” Cañestro said. Replace the fly Pax6 gene with the human version, and the fly can still make an eye. “Now we are finding that sometimes the structures [that grow] are the same, but the genes responsible for making the structures have many differences,” he said. “How is it possible that there are so many different genes, and still the structures are the same? That’s the inverse paradox of evo-devo.'”
Comment: Behe is supported without his being mentioned. Obviously the original DNA was designed to have multiple parallel backup systems of genes, so DNA could devolve as Behe states. Considering my error theory: if God made original DNA complete and perfect there is no need for Him to edit changes except to be sure the deletions are correct.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Wednesday, September 02, 2020, 11:36 (1543 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: One of the lost genes, KLK8, is interesting because it is involved in the development both of sweat glands in the skin and of the hippocampus in the brain; cetaceans lost it during their transition from land back to water. The loss of this gene is linked to the development of a thicker epidermis and the loss of hair (hair is not adaptive in aquatic environments, where it creates drag and does not preserve body heat as it does in terrestrial animals).
I think this quote provides the clearest possible explanation of the whole process. Loss of genes does not mean that every single organism was planned in advance with its code implanted in the very first living cells. It simply means that as evolution progressed, and more and more species evolved, each new species would have jettisoned those inherited genes which were no longer needed. Hair genes evolved as protection against the climate, but what would be the point of your ancestors’ hair genes if you lived in the water and no longer needed hair? Just like organisms themselves, genes are subject to the process of natural selection - the same principle as shrinkage of the modern brain: cells that were no longer needed were discarded.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Wednesday, September 02, 2020, 20:50 (1542 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: One of the lost genes, KLK8, is interesting because it is involved in the development both of sweat glands in the skin and of the hippocampus in the brain; cetaceans lost it during their transition from land back to water. The loss of this gene is linked to the development of a thicker epidermis and the loss of hair (hair is not adaptive in aquatic environments, where it creates drag and does not preserve body heat as it does in terrestrial animals).
dhw: I think this quote provides the clearest possible explanation of the whole process. Loss of genes does not mean that every single organism was planned in advance with its code implanted in the very first living cells. It simply means that as evolution progressed, and more and more species evolved, each new species would have jettisoned those inherited genes which were no longer needed. Hair genes evolved as protection against the climate, but what would be the point of your ancestors’ hair genes if you lived in the water and no longer needed hair? Just like organisms themselves, genes are subject to the process of natural selection - the same principle as shrinkage of the modern brain: cells that were no longer needed were discarded.
Neat sidesteps. The big issue is if advances always result from the loss of genes the info was available and revealed in the smaller DNA with each step. Natural selection could only study what it received in each new advance, which it obviously did not control.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Thursday, September 03, 2020, 11:32 (1542 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: One of the lost genes, KLK8, is interesting because it is involved in the development both of sweat glands in the skin and of the hippocampus in the brain; cetaceans lost it during their transition from land back to water. The loss of this gene is linked to the development of a thicker epidermis and the loss of hair (hair is not adaptive in aquatic environments, where it creates drag and does not preserve body heat as it does in terrestrial animals).
dhw: I think this quote provides the clearest possible explanation of the whole process. Loss of genes does not mean that every single organism was planned in advance with its code implanted in the very first living cells. It simply means that as evolution progressed, and more and more species evolved, each new species would have jettisoned those inherited genes which were no longer needed. Hair genes evolved as protection against the climate, but what would be the point of your ancestors’ hair genes if you lived in the water and no longer needed hair? Just like organisms themselves, genes are subject to the process of natural selection - the same principle as shrinkage of the modern brain: cells that were no longer needed were discarded.
DAVID: Neat sidesteps. The big issue is if advances always result from the loss of genes the info was available and revealed in the smaller DNA with each step. Natural selection could only study what it received in each new advance, which it obviously did not control.
It is not a sidestep, and I challenge the view that advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes! I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Thursday, September 03, 2020, 19:43 (1541 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: One of the lost genes, KLK8, is interesting because it is involved in the development both of sweat glands in the skin and of the hippocampus in the brain; cetaceans lost it during their transition from land back to water. The loss of this gene is linked to the development of a thicker epidermis and the loss of hair (hair is not adaptive in aquatic environments, where it creates drag and does not preserve body heat as it does in terrestrial animals).
dhw: I think this quote provides the clearest possible explanation of the whole process. Loss of genes does not mean that every single organism was planned in advance with its code implanted in the very first living cells. It simply means that as evolution progressed, and more and more species evolved, each new species would have jettisoned those inherited genes which were no longer needed. Hair genes evolved as protection against the climate, but what would be the point of your ancestors’ hair genes if you lived in the water and no longer needed hair? Just like organisms themselves, genes are subject to the process of natural selection - the same principle as shrinkage of the modern brain: cells that were no longer needed were discarded.
DAVID: Neat sidesteps. The big issue is if advances always result from the loss of genes the info was available and revealed in the smaller DNA with each step. Natural selection could only study what it received in each new advance, which it obviously did not control.
dhw: It is not a sidestep, and I challenge the view that advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes! I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.
Natural selection has nothing to do with genes directly!!! You are challenging two sources of advances in form and function through the gene loss concept: Behe's book, filled with examples and an article that lists many studies but never mentions Behe's ideas. How can you challenge it? From previous bias is obvious.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Friday, September 04, 2020, 09:25 (1541 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: One of the lost genes, KLK8, is interesting because it is involved in the development both of sweat glands in the skin and of the hippocampus in the brain; cetaceans lost it during their transition from land back to water. The loss of this gene is linked to the development of a thicker epidermis and the loss of hair (hair is not adaptive in aquatic environments, where it creates drag and does not preserve body heat as it does in terrestrial animals).
dhw: I think this quote provides the clearest possible explanation of the whole process. Loss of genes does not mean that every single organism was planned in advance with its code implanted in the very first living cells. It simply means that as evolution progressed, and more and more species evolved, each new species would have jettisoned those inherited genes which were no longer needed. Hair genes evolved as protection against the climate, but what would be the point of your ancestors’ hair genes if you lived in the water and no longer needed hair? Just like organisms themselves, genes are subject to the process of natural selection - the same principle as shrinkage of the modern brain: cells that were no longer needed were discarded.
DAVID: Neat sidesteps. The big issue is if advances always result from the loss of genes the info was available and revealed in the smaller DNA with each step. Natural selection could only study what it received in each new advance, which it obviously did not control.
dhw: It is not a sidestep, and I challenge the view that advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes! I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.
DAVID: Natural selection has nothing to do with genes directly!!! You are challenging two sources of advances in form and function through the gene loss concept: Behe's book, filled with examples and an article that lists many studies but never mentions Behe's ideas. How can you challenge it? From previous bias is obvious.
What do you mean by “directly”? If certain genes are no longer required, it is perfectly “natural” that they should disappear. I am puzzled by the theory you have presented, so instead of asking why I challenge it, perhaps you would enlighten me by explaining why my bolded proposal above is impossible.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Friday, September 04, 2020, 18:24 (1540 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: One of the lost genes, KLK8, is interesting because it is involved in the development both of sweat glands in the skin and of the hippocampus in the brain; cetaceans lost it during their transition from land back to water. The loss of this gene is linked to the development of a thicker epidermis and the loss of hair (hair is not adaptive in aquatic environments, where it creates drag and does not preserve body heat as it does in terrestrial animals).
dhw: I think this quote provides the clearest possible explanation of the whole process. Loss of genes does not mean that every single organism was planned in advance with its code implanted in the very first living cells. It simply means that as evolution progressed, and more and more species evolved, each new species would have jettisoned those inherited genes which were no longer needed. Hair genes evolved as protection against the climate, but what would be the point of your ancestors’ hair genes if you lived in the water and no longer needed hair? Just like organisms themselves, genes are subject to the process of natural selection - the same principle as shrinkage of the modern brain: cells that were no longer needed were discarded.
DAVID: Neat sidesteps. The big issue is if advances always result from the loss of genes the info was available and revealed in the smaller DNA with each step. Natural selection could only study what it received in each new advance, which it obviously did not control.
dhw: It is not a sidestep, and I challenge the view that advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes! I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.
DAVID: Natural selection has nothing to do with genes directly!!! You are challenging two sources of advances in form and function through the gene loss concept: Behe's book, filled with examples and an article that lists many studies but never mentions Behe's ideas. How can you challenge it? From previous bias is obvious.
dhw: What do you mean by “directly”? If certain genes are no longer required, it is perfectly “natural” that they should disappear. I am puzzled by the theory you have presented, so instead of asking why I challenge it, perhaps you would enlighten me by explaining why my bolded proposal above is impossible.
Your proposal is wishful, but not supported by anything in the article I presented or by Behe's book. Facts are facts. DNA Loss is now known and supported by a source (quoting multiple studies other than Behe). The last of Darwin worship is dying.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Saturday, September 05, 2020, 11:06 (1540 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I challenge the view that advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes! I suggest that bbbthe process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.
DAVID: Natural selection has nothing to do with genes directly!!! You are challenging two sources of advances in form and function through the gene loss concept: Behe's book, filled with examples and an article that lists many studies but never mentions Behe's ideas. How can you challenge it? From previous bias is obvious.
dhw: What do you mean by “directly”? If certain genes are no longer required, it is perfectly “natural” that they should disappear. I am puzzled by the theory you have presented, so instead of asking why I challenge it, perhaps you would enlighten me by explaining why my bolded proposal above is impossible.
DAVID: Your proposal is wishful, but not supported by anything in the article I presented or by Behe's book. Facts are facts. DNA Loss is now known and supported by a source (quoting multiple studies other than Behe). The last of Darwin worship is dying.
I have acknowledged DNA loss! Please forget your hatred of Darwin and your love of Behe and explain to me why my bolded proposal is not feasible.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Saturday, September 05, 2020, 19:35 (1539 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: I challenge the view that advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes! I suggest that bbbthe process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.
DAVID: Natural selection has nothing to do with genes directly!!! You are challenging two sources of advances in form and function through the gene loss concept: Behe's book, filled with examples and an article that lists many studies but never mentions Behe's ideas. How can you challenge it? From previous bias is obvious.
dhw: What do you mean by “directly”? If certain genes are no longer required, it is perfectly “natural” that they should disappear. I am puzzled by the theory you have presented, so instead of asking why I challenge it, perhaps you would enlighten me by explaining why my bolded proposal above is impossible.
DAVID: Your proposal is wishful, but not supported by anything in the article I presented or by Behe's book. Facts are facts. DNA Loss is now known and supported by a source (quoting multiple studies other than Behe). The last of Darwin worship is dying.
dhw: I have acknowledged DNA loss! Please forget your hatred of Darwin and your love of Behe and explain to me why my bolded proposal is not feasible.
I don't hate your beloved Darwin, never have. He awakened the world to the process of the evolution of life. He worked with the information available and his theory has fallen apart. I intensely dislike the current Darwinists who can't leave the theory and misuse science. His first editions made no mention of God and and he added them in later editions, perhaps due to the furious blowback. Your bolded proposal ignores the point of the article. It is now accepted that new mutations (new genes) are most always deleterious or if effective lead to minor alterations of no major consequence to furthering evolution. If read carefully, the article is in full support of Behe.
Quoting the title and subtitle:
By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity
Recent major surveys show that reductions in genomic complexity — including the loss of key genes — have successfully shaped the evolution of life throughout history.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/by-losing-genes-life-often-evolved-more-complexity-20200...
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Sunday, September 06, 2020, 12:22 (1539 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: The big issue is if advances always result from the loss of genes the info was available and revealed in the DNA with each step.
dhw: I challenge the view that advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes! I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.
DAVID: Natural selection has nothing to do with genes directly!!! You are challenging two sources of advances in form and function through the gene loss concept: Behe's book, filled with examples and an article that lists many studies but never mentions Behe's ideas. How can you challenge it? From previous bias is obvious.
dhw: What do you mean by “directly”? If certain genes are no longer required, it is perfectly “natural” that they should disappear. I am puzzled by the theory you have presented, so instead of asking why I challenge it, perhaps you would enlighten me by explaining why my bolded proposal above is impossible.
DAVID: Your proposal is wishful, but not supported by anything in the article I presented or by Behe's book. Facts are facts. DNA Loss is now known and supported by a source (quoting multiple studies other than Behe). The last of Darwin worship is dying.
(I’m skipping the discussion on Darwin. It’s totally irrelevant to our subject.)
DAVID: Your bolded proposal ignores the point of the article. It is now accepted that new mutations (new genes) are most always deleterious or if effective lead to minor alterations of no major consequence to furthering evolution. If read carefully, the article is in full support of Behe.
We are not talking about deleterious mutations but about gene loss. I challenged your statement that “advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes”. Look at the title: “By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity”. Often, not always.
DAVID: Quoting the title and subtitle:
By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity
Recent major surveys show that reductions in genomic complexity — including the loss of key genes — have successfully shaped the evolution of life throughout history.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/by-losing-genes-life-often-evolved-more-complexity-20200...
Here are some quotes from the article:
But in reality, the majority of gene losses during evolution are likely to be neutral, with no fitness consequences for the organism…
The reason is that evolutionary gene losses often occur after some change in the environment or behaviors makes a gene less necessary. If a key nutrient or vitamin suddenly becomes more available, for example, the biosynthetic pathways for making it may become dispensable, and mutations or other genetic accidents may make those pathways disappear. Losses can also occur after a chance gene duplication, when the superfluous copy degenerates, since selection no longer preserves it.
Of course, the risk of evolving by jettisoning genes is that even if a gene is dispensable in particular environmental conditions, it might be needed again millions of years later, Jedd says. What then? It turns out that yeasts, at least, can sometimes get genes back.
Please note the emphasis on the influence of the environment, the necessity or otherwise of the gene (he uses the term "dispensable"), and the role played by selection. There is nothing in the article about innovation. It deals with adaptation. Under the photo of the author, we read: "Cristian Cañestro, a professor of genetics, microbiology and statistics at the University of Barcelona, has argued for years that gene loss can be an adaptive evolutionary force."
There is absolutely nothing in this article that contradicts my proposal bolded above.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Sunday, September 06, 2020, 15:11 (1538 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Your bolded proposal ignores the point of the article. It is now accepted that new mutations (new genes) are most always deleterious or if effective lead to minor alterations of no major consequence to furthering evolution. If read carefully, the article is in full support of Behe.
dhw: We are not talking about deleterious mutations but about gene loss. I challenged your statement that “advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes”. Look at the title: “By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity”. Often, not always.
The crutch of your leaning upon the word 'often' is refuted if you read the entire article with all of the studied cited. All implying loss of genes results in advances in form. I view 'often' as a hedge by the author about how current direction research is taking away from Darwin theory. A step most writers take hesitantly in today's resistance to leaving Darwin.
DAVID: Quoting the title and subtitle:
By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity
Recent major surveys show that reductions in genomic complexity — including the loss of key genes — have successfully shaped the evolution of life throughout history.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/by-losing-genes-life-often-evolved-more-complexity-20200...Here are some quotes from the article:
But in reality, the majority of gene losses during evolution are likely to be neutral, with no fitness consequences for the organism…
The reason is that evolutionary gene losses often occur after some change in the environment or behaviors makes a gene less necessary. If a key nutrient or vitamin suddenly becomes more available, for example, the biosynthetic pathways for making it may become dispensable, and mutations or other genetic accidents may make those pathways disappear. Losses can also occur after a chance gene duplication, when the superfluous copy degenerates, since selection no longer preserves it.
Of course, the risk of evolving by jettisoning genes is that even if a gene is dispensable in particular environmental conditions, it might be needed again millions of years later, Jedd says. What then? It turns out that yeasts, at least, can sometimes get genes back.
Please note the emphasis on the influence of the environment, the necessity or otherwise of the gene (he uses the term "dispensable"), and the role played by selection. There is nothing in the article about innovation. It deals with adaptation. Under the photo of the author, we read: "Cristian Cañestro, a professor of genetics, microbiology and statistics at the University of Barcelona, has argued for years that gene loss can be an adaptive evolutionary force."dhw: There is absolutely nothing in this article that contradicts my proposal bolded above.
The use of the word 'complexity' implies more than some adaptive modification. This article is couched in Darwin-protective terminology, but it supports, if carefully, the Behe direct attack. And please keep in mind, I have no 'hatred' of Darwin. He did the best he could. It is his current brain-dead researchers I abhor.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Monday, September 07, 2020, 14:38 (1537 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.
DAVID: Your bolded proposal ignores the point of the article. It is now accepted that new mutations (new genes) are most always deleterious or if effective lead to minor alterations of no major consequence to furthering evolution. If read carefully, the article is in full support of Behe.
dhw: We are not talking about deleterious mutations but about gene loss. I challenged your statement that “advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes”. Look at the title: “By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity”. Often, not always.
By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity
Recent major surveys show that reductions in genomic complexity — including the loss of key genes — have successfully shaped the evolution of life throughout history.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/by-losing-genes-life-often-evolved-more-complexity-20200...
Here are some quotes from the article:
But in reality, the majority of gene losses during evolution are likely to be neutral, with no fitness consequences for the organism…
The reason is that evolutionary gene losses often occur after some change in the environment or behaviors makes a gene less necessary. If a key nutrient or vitamin suddenly becomes more available, for example, the biosynthetic pathways for making it may become dispensable, and mutations or other genetic accidents may make those pathways disappear. Losses can also occur after a chance gene duplication, when the superfluous copy degenerates, since selection no longer preserves it.
Of course, the risk of evolving by jettisoning genes is that even if a gene is dispensable in particular environmental conditions, it might be needed again millions of years later, Jedd says. What then? It turns out that yeasts, at least, can sometimes get genes back.
dhw: Please note the emphasis on the influence of the environment, the necessity or otherwise of the gene (he uses the term "dispensable"), and the role played by selection. There is nothing in the article about innovation. It deals with adaptation [although as I keep repeating, it is sometimes very difficult to draw a line between adaptation and innovation]. Under the photo of the author, we read: "Cristian Cañestro, a professor of genetics, microbiology and statistics at the University of Barcelona, has argued for years that gene loss can be an adaptive evolutionary force."
There is absolutely nothing in this article that contradicts my proposal bolded above.
David: The crutch of your leaning upon the word 'often' is refuted if you read the entire article with all of the studied cited. All implying loss of genes results in advances in form. I view 'often' as a hedge by the author about how current direction research is taking away from Darwin theory. A step most writers take hesitantly in today's resistance to leaving Darwin.
I read the entire article, which you claimed supported your argument that advances always result from loss of genes and which, as you can see, did no such thing. Of course I haven’t read all the studies cited – I can only comment on what you offer, and if you choose to ignore the quotes, that’s up to you. We are not discussing how right/wrong Darwin is/was/.
DAVID: The use of the word 'complexity' implies more than some adaptive modification. This article is couched in Darwin-protective terminology, but it supports, if carefully, the Behe direct attack. And please keep in mind, I have no 'hatred' of Darwin. He did the best he could. It is his current brain-dead researchers I abhor.
The use of ‘complexity’ is not the same as ‘innovation’, which is crucial to speciation in the broad sense (as opposed to variations within species, which some people also regard as speciation). I don’t see any hidden meaning in the quotes, which quite explicitly emphasize the role of the environment, and the fact that under certain conditions genes become dispensable and are therefore discarded, in keeping with the theory of natural selection. I find this completely logical. Perhaps now, forgetting about Darwin and using my own terminology, you would tell me why my own proposal bolded above is not feasible.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Monday, September 07, 2020, 15:47 (1537 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.
DAVID: Your bolded proposal ignores the point of the article. It is now accepted that new mutations (new genes) are most always deleterious or if effective lead to minor alterations of no major consequence to furthering evolution. If read carefully, the article is in full support of Behe.
dhw: We are not talking about deleterious mutations but about gene loss. I challenged your statement that “advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes”. Look at the title: “By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity”. Often, not always.
By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity
Recent major surveys show that reductions in genomic complexity — including the loss of key genes — have successfully shaped the evolution of life throughout history.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/by-losing-genes-life-often-evolved-more-complexity-20200...Here are some quotes from the article:
But in reality, the majority of gene losses during evolution are likely to be neutral, with no fitness consequences for the organism…
The reason is that evolutionary gene losses often occur after some change in the environment or behaviors makes a gene less necessary. If a key nutrient or vitamin suddenly becomes more available, for example, the biosynthetic pathways for making it may become dispensable, and mutations or other genetic accidents may make those pathways disappear. Losses can also occur after a chance gene duplication, when the superfluous copy degenerates, since selection no longer preserves it.
Of course, the risk of evolving by jettisoning genes is that even if a gene is dispensable in particular environmental conditions, it might be needed again millions of years later, Jedd says. What then? It turns out that yeasts, at least, can sometimes get genes back.
dhw: Please note the emphasis on the influence of the environment, the necessity or otherwise of the gene (he uses the term "dispensable"), and the role played by selection. There is nothing in the article about innovation. It deals with adaptation [although as I keep repeating, it is sometimes very difficult to draw a line between adaptation and innovation]. Under the photo of the author, we read: "Cristian Cañestro, a professor of genetics, microbiology and statistics at the University of Barcelona, has argued for years that gene loss can be an adaptive evolutionary force."
There is absolutely nothing in this article that contradicts my proposal bolded above.
David: The crutch of your leaning upon the word 'often' is refuted if you read the entire article with all of the studied cited. All implying loss of genes results in advances in form. I view 'often' as a hedge by the author about how current direction research is taking away from Darwin theory. A step most writers take hesitantly in today's resistance to leaving Darwin.
dhw: I read the entire article, which you claimed supported your argument that advances always result from loss of genes and which, as you can see, did no such thing. Of course I haven’t read all the studies cited – I can only comment on what you offer, and if you choose to ignore the quotes, that’s up to you. We are not discussing how right/wrong Darwin is/was/.
DAVID: The use of the word 'complexity' implies more than some adaptive modification. This article is couched in Darwin-protective terminology, but it supports, if carefully, the Behe direct attack. And please keep in mind, I have no 'hatred' of Darwin. He did the best he could. It is his current brain-dead researchers I abhor.
dhw: The use of ‘complexity’ is not the same as ‘innovation’, which is crucial to speciation in the broad sense (as opposed to variations within species, which some people also regard as speciation). I don’t see any hidden meaning in the quotes, which quite explicitly emphasize the role of the environment, and the fact that under certain conditions genes become dispensable and are therefore discarded, in keeping with the theory of natural selection. I find this completely logical. Perhaps now, forgetting about Darwin and using my own terminology, you would tell me why my own proposal bolded above is not feasible.
The acquisition of new genes in your statement now in red is not supported. Remember I am forced to use Darwin-biased articles, and this one agrees with Behe in carefully couched terms. Your Darwinism is showing.
Evolution: viruses critical role
by David Turell , Monday, September 07, 2020, 18:50 (1537 days ago) @ David Turell
The latest research:
https://phys.org/news/2020-09-viruses-critical-role-evolution-survival.html
"In two separate papers appearing in the same edition of the journal, they reveal two distinct and fundamental processes underlying germline transcriptomes. They also show that species-specific transcriptomes are fine-tuned by endogenous retroviruses in the mammalian germline
"Germline transcriptomes include all the messenger RNA in germline cells, which contain either the male or female half of chromosomes passed on as inherited genetic material to offspring when species mate. This means that germline transcriptomes define the unique character of sperm and egg to prepare for the next generation of life.
***
"'One paper, Maezawa and Sakashita et al., explores super-enhancers, which are robust and evolutionally conserved gene regulatory elements in the genome. They fuel a tightly regulated burst of essential germline genes as sperm start to form," Namekawa said.
"'The second study, Sakashita et al., involves endogenous retroviruses that act as another type of enhancer—gene regulatory elements in the genome—to drive expression of newly evolved genes. This helps fine tune species-specific transcriptomes in mammals like humans, mice, and so on.
***
"Viruses, especially endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) that are an inherent part of mammalian biology, can dramatically influence gene expression, investigators report. ERVs are molecular remnants of retroviruses that infect the body and over time incorporate into the genome.
"'What we learn from our study is that, in general, viruses have major roles in driving evolution," Namekawa explained. "In the long-term, viruses have positive impacts to our genome and shape evolution."
***
"Those tests revealed that the the genome-wide reorganization of super-enhancers drives bursts of germline gene expression after germ cells enter meiosis, a specialized form of cell division that produces the haploid genome of germ cells.
"The study further demonstrates the molecular process through whichsuper-enhancer switching takes place in germ cells. Super-enhancers are regulated by two molecules that act as gene-burst control switches—the transcription factor A-MYB and SCML2, a critical silencing protein in sperm formation.
"Endogenous retroviruses are a group of transposable elements (TEs), mobile genetic elements that account for approximately 40-50 percent of a given mammalian genome. Also referred to as "jumping genes," TEs have long been considered genetic threats because transposition can be harmful if, for example, the process disrupts protein-coding genes.
"Building on findings from the 1950s that TEs can function as genetic regulatory elements, Namekawa and his collaborators (Sakashita et al.) produced data showing that ERV-driven mechanisms help fine tune species-specific transcriptomes."
Comment: Why viruses has always been a question looking at God's purposes in evolution. Covid shows they can be nasty just as some bacteria infections. But we now know about necessary biomes and it turns viruses are very useful also. The moral is God knows exactly what He is doing and how to produce the results He desires. More research always answers negative questioning about Gods methods.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Tuesday, September 08, 2020, 12:13 (1537 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.
dhw: The use of ‘complexity’ is not the same as ‘innovation’, which is crucial to speciation in the broad sense (as opposed to variations within species, which some people also regard as speciation). I don’t see any hidden meaning in the quotes, which quite explicitly emphasize the role of the environment, and the fact that under certain conditions genes become dispensable and are therefore discarded, in keeping with the theory of natural selection. I find this completely logical. Perhaps now, forgetting about Darwin and using my own terminology, you would tell me why my own proposal bolded above is not feasible.
DAVID: The acquisition of new genes in your statement now in red is not supported. Remember I am forced to use Darwin-biased articles, and this one agrees with Behe in carefully couched terms. Your Darwinism is showing.
You are not forced to do anything. You quoted the article as if it confirmed that evolutionary advances always result from loss of genes. The article does no such thing. As far as my own proposal is concerned, the acquisition of new genes has plenty of support:
New Gene Evolution: Little Did We Know
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4281893
“Genes are perpetually added to and deleted from genomes during evolution. Thus, it is important to understand how new genes are formed and evolve as critical components of the genetic systems determining the biological diversity of life.”
New genes drive the evolution of gene interaction networks ...
paperity.org/p/74138386/new-genes-drive-the-evolution-of-gene-interaction-ne
New genes as drivers of phenotypic evolution | Nature ...
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg3521
Under “Evolution: viruses critical role” you have even quoted another source:
'The second study, Sakashita et al., involves endogenous retroviruses that act as another type of enhancer—gene regulatory elements in the genome—to drive expression of newly evolved genes. This helps fine tune species-specific transcriptomes in mammals like humans, mice, and so on.
Now please tell me why my proposal is not feasible.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Tuesday, September 08, 2020, 15:58 (1536 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.
dhw: The use of ‘complexity’ is not the same as ‘innovation’, which is crucial to speciation in the broad sense (as opposed to variations within species, which some people also regard as speciation). I don’t see any hidden meaning in the quotes, which quite explicitly emphasize the role of the environment, and the fact that under certain conditions genes become dispensable and are therefore discarded, in keeping with the theory of natural selection. I find this completely logical. Perhaps now, forgetting about Darwin and using my own terminology, you would tell me why my own proposal bolded above is not feasible.
DAVID: The acquisition of new genes in your statement now in red is not supported. Remember I am forced to use Darwin-biased articles, and this one agrees with Behe in carefully couched terms. Your Darwinism is showing.
You are not forced to do anything. You quoted the article as if it confirmed that evolutionary advances always result from loss of genes. The article does no such thing. As far as my own proposal is concerned, the acquisition of new genes has plenty of support:
New Gene Evolution: Little Did We Know
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4281893“Genes are perpetually added to and deleted from genomes during evolution. Thus, it is important to understand how new genes are formed and evolve as critical components of the genetic systems determining the biological diversity of life.”
New genes drive the evolution of gene interaction networks ...
paperity.org/p/74138386/new-genes-drive-the-evolution-of-gene-interaction-neNew genes as drivers of phenotypic evolution | Nature ...
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg3521Under “Evolution: viruses critical role” you have even quoted another source:
'The second study, Sakashita et al., involves endogenous retroviruses that act as another type of enhancer—gene regulatory elements in the genome—to drive expression of newly evolved genes. This helps fine tune species-specific transcriptomes in mammals like humans, mice, and so on.
Now please tell me why my proposal is not feasible.
Your articles are from 2013, not current presentations. Research advances, and yes new genes appear, but it still appears major evolutionary changes, as per the article I presented and from Behe's book result in loss of DNA. It depends upon which genes you are looking at and how much new they create. Let's stick with applies, not oranges.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Wednesday, September 09, 2020, 07:36 (1536 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.[…]
DAVID: The acquisition of new genes in your statement now in red is not supported. Remember I am forced to use Darwin-biased articles, and this one agrees with Behe in carefully couched terms. Your Darwinism is showing.
dhw: You are not forced to do anything. You quoted the article as if it confirmed that evolutionary advances always result from loss of genes. The article does no such thing. [And you say it agrees with Behe, but your heading says "not Behe"!] As far as my own proposal is concerned, the acquisition of new genes has plenty of support:
New Gene Evolution: Little Did We Know
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4281893
“Genes are perpetually added to and deleted from genomes during evolution. Thus, it is important to understand how new genes are formed and evolve as critical components of the genetic systems determining the biological diversity of life.”
New genes drive the evolution of gene interaction networks ...
paperity.org/p/74138386/new-genes-drive-the-evolution-of-gene-interaction-ne
New genes as drivers of phenotypic evolution | Nature ...
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg3521
Under “Evolution: viruses critical role” you have even quoted another source:
'The second study, Sakashita et al., involves endogenous retroviruses that act as another type of enhancer—gene regulatory elements in the genome—to drive expression of newly evolved genes. This helps fine tune species-specific transcriptomes in mammals like humans, mice, and so on.
dhw: Now please tell me why my proposal is not feasible.
DAVID: Your articles are from 2013, not current presentations. Research advances, and yes new genes appear, but it still appears major evolutionary changes, as per the article I presented and from Behe's book result in loss of DNA. It depends upon which genes you are looking at and how much new they create. Let's stick with apples, not oranges.
Thank you for agreeing that new genes appear, i.e. that my proposal IS supported. I’m in no position to say whether 2020 researchers have unanimously agreed with your claim that “advances always result from loss of genes”– which I disputed and which I’m happy to see you have now greatly modified - and the article quite explicitly did not support this claim (why else did you say "not Behe"?). And I’d be surprised if there was unanimous agreement in 2020 that any research carried out in 2013 is now past its use-by date. I’m also in no position to say how much new is created by new genes, and nor I suspect are you, but the only reason you gave for rejecting my proposal was that there is no support for “the acquisition of new genes”. Yes there is, so why is my proposal not feasible?
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Wednesday, September 09, 2020, 22:47 (1535 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.[…]
DAVID: The acquisition of new genes in your statement now in red is not supported. Remember I am forced to use Darwin-biased articles, and this one agrees with Behe in carefully couched terms. Your Darwinism is showing.
dhw: You are not forced to do anything. You quoted the article as if it confirmed that evolutionary advances always result from loss of genes. The article does no such thing. [And you say it agrees with Behe, but your heading says "not Behe"!] As far as my own proposal is concerned, the acquisition of new genes has plenty of support:
New Gene Evolution: Little Did We Know
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4281893“Genes are perpetually added to and deleted from genomes during evolution. Thus, it is important to understand how new genes are formed and evolve as critical components of the genetic systems determining the biological diversity of life.”
New genes drive the evolution of gene interaction networks ...
paperity.org/p/74138386/new-genes-drive-the-evolution-of-gene-interaction-neNew genes as drivers of phenotypic evolution | Nature ...
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg3521Under “Evolution: viruses critical role” you have even quoted another source:
'The second study, Sakashita et al., involves endogenous retroviruses that act as another type of enhancer—gene regulatory elements in the genome—to drive expression of newly evolved genes. This helps fine tune species-specific transcriptomes in mammals like humans, mice, and so on.dhw: Now please tell me why my proposal is not feasible.
DAVID: Your articles are from 2013, not current presentations. Research advances, and yes new genes appear, but it still appears major evolutionary changes, as per the article I presented and from Behe's book result in loss of DNA. It depends upon which genes you are looking at and how much new they create. Let's stick with apples, not oranges.
dhw: Thank you for agreeing that new genes appear, i.e. that my proposal IS supported. I’m in no position to say whether 2020 researchers have unanimously agreed with your claim that “advances always result from loss of genes”– which I disputed and which I’m happy to see you have now greatly modified - and the article quite explicitly did not support this claim (why else did you say "not Behe"?). And I’d be surprised if there was unanimous agreement in 2020 that any research carried out in 2013 is now past its use-by date. I’m also in no position to say how much new is created by new genes, and nor I suspect are you, but the only reason you gave for rejecting my proposal was that there is no support for “the acquisition of new genes”. Yes there is, so why is my proposal not feasible?
Of course older literature is constantly reviewed and used. My point is older findings, if in dispute with new discoveries or reviews cannot be used as refutations. Behe's book describes large species alteration through deletion of DNA. The article you've read supports it in large part, but couched with Darwin qualifiers as I noted..
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Thursday, September 10, 2020, 12:51 (1535 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.[…]
DAVID: The acquisition of new genes in your statement now in red is not supported. Remember I am forced to use Darwin-biased articles, and this one agrees with Behe in carefully couched terms. Your Darwinism is showing.
dhw: You are not forced to do anything. You quoted the article as if it confirmed that evolutionary advances always result from loss of genes. The article does no such thing. [And you say it agrees with Behe, but your heading says "not Behe"!] As far as my own proposal is concerned, the acquisition of new genes has plenty of support: [I offered you three articles, plus another which you yourself quoted:
Under “Evolution: viruses critical role” you have even quoted another source:
'The second study, Sakashita et al., involves endogenous retroviruses that act as another type of enhancer—gene regulatory elements in the genome—to drive expression of newly evolved genes. This helps fine tune species-specific transcriptomes in mammals like humans, mice, and so on.
DAVID: Your articles are from 2013, not current presentations. Research advances, and yes new genes appear, but it still appears major evolutionary changes, as per the article I presented and from Behe's book result in loss of DNA. It depends upon which genes you are looking at and how much new they create. Let's stick with apples, not oranges.
dhw: Thank you for agreeing that new genes appear, i.e. that my proposal IS supported. I’m in no position to say whether 2020 researchers have unanimously agreed with your claim that “advances always result from loss of genes”– which I disputed and which I’m happy to see you have now greatly modified - and the article quite explicitly did not support this claim (why else did you say "not Behe"?). And I’d be surprised if there was unanimous agreement in 2020 that any research carried out in 2013 is now past its use-by date. I’m also in no position to say how much new is created by new genes, and nor I suspect are you, but the only reason you gave for rejecting my proposal was that there is no support for “the acquisition of new genes”. Yes there is, so why is my proposal not feasible?
DAVID: Of course older literature is constantly reviewed and used. My point is older findings, if in dispute with new discoveries or reviews cannot be used as refutations. Behe's book describes large species alteration through deletion of DNA. The article you've read supports it in large part, but couched with Darwin qualifiers as I noted.
Firstly, why is this thread headed “not Behe”? Secondly, you have agreed that new genes appear, and my proposal includes the appearance of new genes. Are you really certain that research carried out in 2013 concerning the appearance of new genes has now unanimously been discredited, even though you agree that new genes appear? Secondly, is there really unanimous agreement that “advances always result from loss of genes”, as you claimed? (I disputed the use of “always”.) And thirdly, has the scientific world now unanimously discounted my proposal? I would have thought it was sheer common sense! Has it really been proven that new species never have new genes or new uses of old genes, and how could any organism survive loss of genes if the genes were not unwanted or “dispensable”, as in the article you recommended?
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Thursday, September 10, 2020, 21:13 (1534 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.[…]
DAVID: The acquisition of new genes in your statement now in red is not supported. Remember I am forced to use Darwin-biased articles, and this one agrees with Behe in carefully couched terms. Your Darwinism is showing.
dhw: You are not forced to do anything. You quoted the article as if it confirmed that evolutionary advances always result from loss of genes. The article does no such thing. [And you say it agrees with Behe, but your heading says "not Behe"!] As far as my own proposal is concerned, the acquisition of new genes has plenty of support: [I offered you three articles, plus another which you yourself quoted:
Under “Evolution: viruses critical role” you have even quoted another source:
'The second study, Sakashita et al., involves endogenous retroviruses that act as another type of enhancer—gene regulatory elements in the genome—to drive expression of newly evolved genes. This helps fine tune species-specific transcriptomes in mammals like humans, mice, and so on.DAVID: Your articles are from 2013, not current presentations. Research advances, and yes new genes appear, but it still appears major evolutionary changes, as per the article I presented and from Behe's book result in loss of DNA. It depends upon which genes you are looking at and how much new they create. Let's stick with apples, not oranges.
dhw: Thank you for agreeing that new genes appear, i.e. that my proposal IS supported. I’m in no position to say whether 2020 researchers have unanimously agreed with your claim that “advances always result from loss of genes”– which I disputed and which I’m happy to see you have now greatly modified - and the article quite explicitly did not support this claim (why else did you say "not Behe"?). And I’d be surprised if there was unanimous agreement in 2020 that any research carried out in 2013 is now past its use-by date. I’m also in no position to say how much new is created by new genes, and nor I suspect are you, but the only reason you gave for rejecting my proposal was that there is no support for “the acquisition of new genes”. Yes there is, so why is my proposal not feasible?
DAVID: Of course older literature is constantly reviewed and used. My point is older findings, if in dispute with new discoveries or reviews cannot be used as refutations. Behe's book describes large species alteration through deletion of DNA. The article you've read supports it in large part, but couched with Darwin qualifiers as I noted.
dhw: Firstly, why is this thread headed “not Behe”?
To point out people other than Behe are making the same observation.
dhw: Secondly, you have agreed that new genes appear, and my proposal includes the appearance of new genes. Are you really certain that research carried out in 2013 concerning the appearance of new genes has now unanimously been discredited, even though you agree that new genes appear? Secondly, is there really unanimous agreement that “advances always result from loss of genes”, as you claimed? (I disputed the use of “always”.) And thirdly, has the scientific world now unanimously discounted my proposal? I would have thought it was sheer common sense! Has it really been proven that new species never have new genes or new uses of old genes, and how could any organism survive loss of genes if the genes were not unwanted or “dispensable”, as in the article you recommended?
The point at issue is whether new species are due to new gene complexes appearing. Of course new genes appear, but in established species we follow with minor modification, if at all. This is a new issue with the field in flux. What I have found in the current literature is appearing to be supportive of Behe. The issue is how speciation occurs, not whether new genes appear.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Friday, September 11, 2020, 14:12 (1533 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.[…]
DAVID: The acquisition of new genes in your statement now in red is not supported.
dhw: Firstly, why is this thread headed “not Behe”?
DAVID: To point out people other than Behe are making the same observation.
So why is it a “different view” if, as you claim, it is now the accepted view?
dhw: Secondly, you have agreed that new genes appear, and my proposal includes the appearance of new genes. Are you really certain that research carried out in 2013 concerning the appearance of new genes has now unanimously been discredited, even though you agree that new genes appear? [Thirdly], is there really unanimous agreement that “advances always result from loss of genes”, as you claimed? (I disputed the use of “always”.) And [fourthly], has the scientific world now unanimously discounted my proposal? I would have thought it was sheer common sense! Has it really been proven that new species never have new genes or new uses of old genes, and how could any organism survive loss of genes if the genes were not unwanted or “dispensable”, as in the article you recommended?
DAVID: The point at issue is whether new species are due to new gene complexes appearing. Of course new genes appear, but in established species we follow with minor modification, if at all. This is a new issue with the field in flux. What I have found in the current literature is appearing to be supportive of Behe. The issue is how speciation occurs, not whether new genes appear.
If the issue is in flux, please don’t claim that articles written in 2013 have been discredited and that “advances always result from loss of genes”. According to the article you quoted, loss of genes accompanied adaptation. There was no mention of innovation or of speciation. And since your only objection to my proposal was that there was no support for the acquisition of new genes, and you have now withdrawn that objection, please explain why you continue to object to my proposal.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Friday, September 11, 2020, 22:18 (1533 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Friday, September 11, 2020, 22:32
dhw: I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.[…]
DAVID: The acquisition of new genes in your statement now in red is not supported.
dhw: Firstly, why is this thread headed “not Behe”?
DAVID: To point out people other than Behe are making the same observation.
dhw: So why is it a “different view” if, as you claim, it is now the accepted view?
The start of being accepted at least for adaptations within species. Behe is about actual speciation.
dhw: Secondly, you have agreed that new genes appear, and my proposal includes the appearance of new genes. Are you really certain that research carried out in 2013 concerning the appearance of new genes has now unanimously been discredited, even though you agree that new genes appear? [Thirdly], is there really unanimous agreement that “advances always result from loss of genes”, as you claimed? (I disputed the use of “always”.) And [fourthly], has the scientific world now unanimously discounted my proposal? I would have thought it was sheer common sense! Has it really been proven that new species never have new genes or new uses of old genes, and how could any organism survive loss of genes if the genes were not unwanted or “dispensable”, as in the article you recommended?DAVID: The point at issue is whether new species are due to new gene complexes appearing. Of course new genes appear, but in established species we follow with minor modification, if at all. This is a new issue with the field in flux. What I have found in the current literature is appearing to be supportive of Behe. The issue is how speciation occurs, not whether new genes appear.
dhw: If the issue is in flux, please don’t claim that articles written in 2013 have been discredited and that “advances always result from loss of genes”. According to the article you quoted, loss of genes accompanied adaptation. There was no mention of innovation or of speciation. And since your only objection to my proposal was that there was no support for the acquisition of new genes, and you have now withdrawn that objection, please explain why you continue to object to my proposal.
2013 articles reflect thinking at that period of time. We are talking about new analyses related to how new species might appear. Remember the article I quoted had this headline: "By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity" And what is found is disappearance of DNA. If loss of DNA results in beneficial adaptation within a species, it is easy to make a stretch, as you do in so many of our debates, to suggest that might be the way new species appear. Behe's book makes quite a case for it. At least accept that point.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Saturday, September 12, 2020, 12:51 (1533 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.[…]
DAVID: The acquisition of new genes in your statement now in red is not supported.
dhw: […] why is this thread headed “not Behe”?
DAVID: To point out people other than Behe are making the same observation.
dhw: So why is it a “different view” if, as you claim, it is now the accepted view?
DAVID: The start of being accepted at least for adaptations within species. Behe is about actual speciation.
So the article is different from Behe. Thank you.
DAVID: The point at issue is whether new species are due to new gene complexes appearing. Of course new genes appear, but in established species we follow with minor modification, if at all. This is a new issue with the field in flux. What I have found in the current literature is appearing to be supportive of Behe. The issue is how speciation occurs, not whether new genes appear.
dhw: If the issue is in flux, please don’t claim that articles written in 2013 have been discredited and that “advances always result from loss of genes”. According to the article you quoted, loss of genes accompanied adaptation. There was no mention of innovation or of speciation. And since your only objection to my proposal was that there was no support for the acquisition of new genes, and you have now withdrawn that objection, please explain why you continue to object to my proposal.
DAVID: 2013 articles reflect thinking at that period of time. We are talking about new analyses related to how new species might appear.
So are you now telling us that there is unanimity in the scientific world that new genes did not contribute to evolutionary advances, and everyone agrees that “advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes”? Ugh, I wonder what the whole scientific world will be agreeing on in 2027. This is getting silly.
DAVID: Remember the article I quoted had this headline: "By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity".
Yes, I remember. I pointed out to you that it said “often”, not always. And I pointed out to you that the article talked only of adaptation (as you admit above), not innovation and speciation.
DAVID: And what is found is disappearance of DNA. If loss of DNA results in beneficial adaptation within a species, it is easy to make a stretch, as you do in so many of our debates, to suggest that might be the way new species appear. Behe's book makes quite a case for it. At least accept that point.
I am happy to accept the point that loss of DNA accompanies adaptation, and to accept the “stretch”. I’m not convinced that loss of genes causes adaptation, let alone speciation, but I'd need to study all the arguments for and against before forming any opinion. A “stretch” and “might be” and “quite a case” are all welcome modifications of your earlier authoritative statements. Meanwhile, you rejected my proposal on the grounds that there were no new genes. You have withdrawn that objection, so once more, please tell me why you still reject my proposal.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Saturday, September 12, 2020, 19:14 (1532 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: So why is it a “different view” if, as you claim, it is now the accepted view?
DAVID: The start of being accepted at least for adaptations within species. Behe is about actual speciation.
dhw: So the article is different from Behe. Thank you.
DAVID: The point at issue is whether new species are due to new gene complexes appearing. Of course new genes appear, but in established species we follow with minor modification, if at all. This is a new issue with the field in flux. What I have found in the current literature is appearing to be supportive of Behe. The issue is how speciation occurs, not whether new genes appear.
dhw: If the issue is in flux, please don’t claim that articles written in 2013 have been discredited and that “advances always result from loss of genes”. According to the article you quoted, loss of genes accompanied adaptation. There was no mention of innovation or of speciation. And since your only objection to my proposal was that there was no support for the acquisition of new genes, and you have now withdrawn that objection, please explain why you continue to object to my proposal.
DAVID: 2013 articles reflect thinking at that period of time. We are talking about new analyses related to how new species might appear.
dhw: So are you now telling us that there is unanimity in the scientific world that new genes did not contribute to evolutionary advances, and everyone agrees that “advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes”? Ugh, I wonder what the whole scientific world will be agreeing on in 2027. This is getting silly.
Nothing of the sort, but new research is supporting Behe.
DAVID: Remember the article I quoted had this headline: "By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity".dhw: Yes, I remember. I pointed out to you that it said “often”, not always. And I pointed out to you that the article talked only of adaptation (as you admit above), not innovation and speciation.
DAVID: And what is found is disappearance of DNA. If loss of DNA results in beneficial adaptation within a species, it is easy to make a stretch, as you do in so many of our debates, to suggest that might be the way new species appear. Behe's book makes quite a case for it. At least accept that point.
dhw: I am happy to accept the point that loss of DNA accompanies adaptation, and to accept the “stretch”. I’m not convinced that loss of genes causes adaptation, let alone speciation, but I'd need to study all the arguments for and against before forming any opinion. A “stretch” and “might be” and “quite a case” are all welcome modifications of your earlier authoritative statements. Meanwhile, you rejected my proposal on the grounds that there were no new genes. You have withdrawn that objection, so once more, please tell me why you still reject my proposal.
You are struggling with the concept presented by Behe. He starts his book by presenting the
polar bear who is closely related to the grizzly and the black bears, and evolved away by degrading two key genes. The field is changing. Time will tell you to support Behe or not.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Sunday, September 13, 2020, 12:56 (1532 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: 2013 articles reflect thinking at that period of time. We are talking about new analyses related to how new species might appear.
dhw: So are you now telling us that there is unanimity in the scientific world that new genes did not contribute to evolutionary advances, and everyone agrees that “advances ALWAYS result from loss of genes”? Ugh, I wonder what the whole scientific world will be agreeing on in 2027. This is getting silly.
DAVID: Nothing of the sort, but new research is supporting Behe.
Well, let’s wait and see if the scientific community unites in its agreement that evolutionary “advances always results from loss of genes.”
DAVID: Remember the article I quoted had this headline: "By Losing Genes, Life Often Evolved More Complexity".
dhw: Yes, I remember. I pointed out to you that it said “often”, not always. And I pointed out to you that the article talked only of adaptation (as you admit above), not innovation and speciation.
DAVID: And what is found is disappearance of DNA. If loss of DNA results in beneficial adaptation within a species, it is easy to make a stretch, as you do in so many of our debates, to suggest that might be the way new species appear. Behe's book makes quite a case for it. At least accept that point.
dhw: I am happy to accept the point that loss of DNA accompanies adaptation, and to accept the “stretch”. I’m not convinced that loss of genes causes adaptation, let alone speciation, but I'd need to study all the arguments for and against before forming any opinion. A “stretch” and “might be” and “quite a case” are all welcome modifications of your earlier authoritative statements. Meanwhile, you rejected my proposal on the grounds that there were no new genes. You have withdrawn that objection, so once more, please tell me why you still reject my proposal.
DAVID: You are struggling with the concept presented by Behe. He starts his book by presenting the polar bear who is closely related to the grizzly and the black bears, and evolved away by degrading two key genes. The field is changing. Time will tell you to support Behe or not.
I would not regard differences between bears as proof that speciation in the broad sense (e.g. bears versus cats) is always caused by loss of genes. These bears live in different environments, which suggests to me adaptation, with a loss of genes that would not be needed for their environment. But if your interpretation of Behe’s theory is correct, and he says all speciation results from loss of genes, yes, let’s see whether time and science support him. Meanwhile, I have asked you repeatedly why you have rejected my proposal, having withdrawn your original objection that there were no new genes. Here it is again, to refresh your memory:
I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.[…]
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Sunday, September 13, 2020, 18:49 (1531 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: And what is found is disappearance of DNA. If loss of DNA results in beneficial adaptation within a species, it is easy to make a stretch, as you do in so many of our debates, to suggest that might be the way new species appear. Behe's book makes quite a case for it. At least accept that point.
dhw: I am happy to accept the point that loss of DNA accompanies adaptation, and to accept the “stretch”. I’m not convinced that loss of genes causes adaptation, let alone speciation, but I'd need to study all the arguments for and against before forming any opinion. A “stretch” and “might be” and “quite a case” are all welcome modifications of your earlier authoritative statements. Meanwhile, you rejected my proposal on the grounds that there were no new genes. You have withdrawn that objection, so once more, please tell me why you still reject my proposal.
DAVID: You are struggling with the concept presented by Behe. He starts his book by presenting the polar bear who is closely related to the grizzly and the black bears, and evolved away by degrading two key genes. The field is changing. Time will tell you to support Behe or not.
dhw: I would not regard differences between bears as proof that speciation in the broad sense (e.g. bears versus cats) is always caused by loss of genes. These bears live in different environments, which suggests to me adaptation, with a loss of genes that would not be needed for their environment. But if your interpretation of Behe’s theory is correct, and he says all speciation results from loss of genes, yes, let’s see whether time and science support him.
The bears are just one example. I can't repeat the entire book here. I gave one example of many.
dhw: Meanwhile, I have asked you repeatedly why you have rejected my proposal, having withdrawn your original objection that there were no new genes. Here it is again, to refresh your memory:
I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.[…]
New mutations occur by chance under Darwinian science. That is where you are starting. Have you forgotten that only a few new mutations are helpful, many are deleterious and the majority are neutral? Human DNA in everyone studied is filled with neutral mutations. I view evolution as over and Behe's probable explanation of speciation as a very cogent avenue for a new theory of speciation. But, yes, adaptation goes on either by deletion or gene modification.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Monday, September 14, 2020, 13:57 (1530 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: You are struggling with the concept presented by Behe. He starts his book by presenting the polar bear who is closely related to the grizzly and the black bears, and evolved away by degrading two key genes. The field is changing. Time will tell you to support Behe or not.
dhw: I would not regard differences between bears as proof that speciation in the broad sense (e.g. bears versus cats) is always caused by loss of genes. These bears live in different environments, which suggests to me adaptation, with a loss of genes that would not be needed for their environment. But if your interpretation of Behe’s theory is correct, and he says all speciation results from loss of genes, yes, let’s see whether time and science support him.
DAVID: The bears are just one example. I can't repeat the entire book here. I gave one example of many.
Not a very good example, then, but I’m not arguing with Behe. I'm arguing with you. Let’s wait and see whether scientists all agree that evolutionary “advances always result from loss of genes”.
dhw: Meanwhile, I have asked you repeatedly why you have rejected my proposal, having withdrawn your original objection that there were no new genes. Here it is again, to refresh your memory:
dhw:I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.[…]
DAVID: New mutations occur by chance under Darwinian science. That is where you are starting. Have you forgotten that only a few new mutations are helpful, many are deleterious and the majority are neutral? Human DNA in everyone studied is filled with neutral mutations. I view evolution as over and Behe's probable explanation of speciation as a very cogent avenue for a new theory of speciation. But, yes, adaptation goes on either by deletion or gene modification.
I have not mentioned and in fact oppose the concept of chance mutations! That is a total digression. You have acknowledged the existence of new genes, whatever the source, and I have proposed that evolution is an on-going process which entails the acquisition of new genes or new functions for old genes, with loss of unwanted genes. Initially you objected because you didn’t accept that new genes existed. You withdrew that objection and have now rejected my proposal by inserting random mutations into it. Please tell me what is wrong with what I have written.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Monday, September 14, 2020, 19:00 (1530 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: You are struggling with the concept presented by Behe. He starts his book by presenting the polar bear who is closely related to the grizzly and the black bears, and evolved away by degrading two key genes. The field is changing. Time will tell you to support Behe or not.
dhw: I would not regard differences between bears as proof that speciation in the broad sense (e.g. bears versus cats) is always caused by loss of genes. These bears live in different environments, which suggests to me adaptation, with a loss of genes that would not be needed for their environment. But if your interpretation of Behe’s theory is correct, and he says all speciation results from loss of genes, yes, let’s see whether time and science support him.
DAVID: The bears are just one example. I can't repeat the entire book here. I gave one example of many.
dhw:Not a very good example, then, but I’m not arguing with Behe. I'm arguing with you. Let’s wait and see whether scientists all agree that evolutionary “advances always result from loss of genes”.
dhw: Meanwhile, I have asked you repeatedly why you have rejected my proposal, having withdrawn your original objection that there were no new genes. Here it is again, to refresh your memory:
dhw:I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.[…]
DAVID: New mutations occur by chance under Darwinian science. That is where you are starting. Have you forgotten that only a few new mutations are helpful, many are deleterious and the majority are neutral? Human DNA in everyone studied is filled with neutral mutations. I view evolution as over and Behe's probable explanation of speciation as a very cogent avenue for a new theory of speciation. But, yes, adaptation goes on either by deletion or gene modification.
dhw: I have not mentioned and in fact oppose the concept of chance mutations! That is a total digression. You have acknowledged the existence of new genes, whatever the source, and I have proposed that evolution is an on-going process which entails the acquisition of new genes or new functions for old genes, with loss of unwanted genes. Initially you objected because you didn’t accept that new genes existed. You withdrew that objection and have now rejected my proposal by inserting random mutations into it. Please tell me what is wrong with what I have written.
The human genome study, about thirty years old, shows that all of us, unchanged, are filled with genes with mutations making each of us slightly different. Our translation and transmission of instructions is tightly controlled as in this entry four days ago:
"Genome complexity: DNA transcription and translation II (Introduction)
by David Turell @, Friday, September 11, 2020, 21:00 (3 days ago)"
and this explains why the mutations mean nothing. I don't know how your 'theory' relates to the major issue of how speciation occurs. The study doesn't seem to show we have new genes. Behe is presenting a reason for species modification. I agree only that a new gene theoretically might appear and its expression will be tightly controlled. I totally disagree that evolution is ongoing. God has stopped producing it having reached His goal of humans. Note your underlying Darwinism is still lurking.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Tuesday, September 15, 2020, 12:01 (1530 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: You are struggling with the concept presented by Behe. He starts his book by presenting the polar bear who is closely related to the grizzly and the black bears, and evolved away by degrading two key genes. The field is changing. Time will tell you to support Behe or not.
dhw: I would not regard differences between bears as proof that speciation in the broad sense (e.g. bears versus cats) is always caused by loss of genes. These bears live in different environments, which suggests to me adaptation, with a loss of genes that would not be needed for their environment. But if your interpretation of Behe’s theory is correct, and he says all speciation results from loss of genes, yes, let’s see whether time and science support him.
DAVID: The bears are just one example. I can't repeat the entire book here. I gave one example of many.
dhw: Not a very good example, then, but I’m not arguing with Behe. I'm arguing with you. Let’s wait and see whether scientists all agree that evolutionary “advances always result from loss of genes”.
dhw: Meanwhile, I have asked you repeatedly why you have rejected my proposal, having withdrawn your original objection that there were no new genes. Here it is again, to refresh your memory:
I suggest that the process is on-going, with a constant acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes. Natural selection merely decides which genes are necessary and which are not.[…]
DAVID: New mutations occur by chance under Darwinian science. […]
dhw: I have not mentioned and in fact oppose the concept of chance mutations! That is a total digression. Please tell me what is wrong with what I have written.
DAVID: The human genome study, about thirty years old, shows that all of us, unchanged, are filled with genes with mutations making each of us slightly different.
Irrelevant to our subject of speciation. (Thirty years old? Then we’d better forget your ridiculous suggestion that studies of “new genes” don’t count because they were written seven years ago.)
DAVID: Our translation and transmission of instructions is tightly controlled as in this entry four days ago:
"Genome complexity: DNA transcription and translation II (Introduction)
by David Turell @, Friday, September 11, 2020, 21:00 (3 days ago)"
and this explains why the mutations mean nothing. I don't know how your 'theory' relates to the major issue of how speciation occurs. The study doesn't seem to show we have new genes.
You have already agreed that new genes exist. I have proposed that speciation is accompanied by new genes or old genes taking on new roles. That is how my ‘theory’ relates to speciation! According to your version of Behe, evolutionary “advances always result from loss of genes”, and “I view evolution as over and Behe's probable explanation of speciation as a very cogent avenue for a new theory of speciation.” I assumed that meant speciation, but now you suddenly change your terminology:
DAVID: Behe is presenting a reason for species modification.
Species modification is not speciation! The bear example shows that, just like the article we have been discussing, this theory relates to ADAPTATION, which you agree “goes on either by deletion or gene modification”. It makes perfect sense that when a species adapts to different conditions, certain genes will become unnecessary. But then I would argue that the changes (why “advances”?) do not RESULT from loss of genes: loss of genes is the result of the changes, because they are no longer needed. Let me stress again that I’m not arguing here with Behe. I’m arguing with the muddled case you have presented.
DAVID: I agree only that a new gene theoretically might appear and its expression will be tightly controlled.
Yes, of course. There would be no point in a new gene appearing if it didn’t have a particular function.
DAVID: I totally disagree that evolution is ongoing. God has stopped producing it having reached His goal of humans. […]
That is not the point of our discussion. You objected to my ‘theory’ because you said there was no such thing as new genes. Objection withdrawn. Then you objected because it relied on random mutations, but my theory doesn’t even mention random mutations, and I do not believe in them as the driving force of evolution. Now you object because you have a theory that evolution is finished. OK, then change my tense to “was”, and please tell me at last what you object to.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Tuesday, September 15, 2020, 15:23 (1529 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: I have not mentioned and in fact oppose the concept of chance mutations! That is a total digression. Please tell me what is wrong with what I have written.
DAVID: The human genome study, about thirty years old, shows that all of us, unchanged, are filled with genes with mutations making each of us slightly different.
dhw: Irrelevant to our subject of speciation. (Thirty years old? Then we’d better forget your ridiculous suggestion that studies of “new genes” don’t count because they were written seven years ago.)
All mutations are relevant to the speciation issue. The thirty years refers to the present length of the study time. I thought that was obvious.
DAVID: Our translation and transmission of instructions is tightly controlled as in this entry four days ago:
"Genome complexity: DNA transcription and translation II (Introduction)
by David Turell @, Friday, September 11, 2020, 21:00 (3 days ago)"
and this explains why the mutations mean nothing. I don't know how your 'theory' relates to the major issue of how speciation occurs. The study doesn't seem to show we have new genes.dhw: You have already agreed that new genes exist. I have proposed that speciation is accompanied by new genes or old genes taking on new roles. That is how my ‘theory’ relates to speciation! According to your version of Behe, evolutionary “advances always result from loss of genes”, and “I view evolution as over and Behe's probable explanation of speciation as a very cogent avenue for a new theory of speciation.” I assumed that meant speciation, but now you suddenly change your terminology:
DAVID: Behe is presenting a reason for species modification.
dhw: Species modification is not speciation! The bear example shows that, just like the article we have been discussing, this theory relates to ADAPTATION, which you agree “goes on either by deletion or gene modification”. It makes perfect sense that when a species adapts to different conditions, certain genes will become unnecessary. But then I would argue that the changes (why “advances”?) do not RESULT from loss of genes: loss of genes is the result of the changes, because they are no longer needed. Let me stress again that I’m not arguing here with Behe. I’m arguing with the muddled case you have presented.
Behe calls his finding "Darwin devolves" and believes his analysis may well tell us how speciation occurs. What In presented is not muddled, but counter to one of your favorite theories straight out of Neo-Darwin.
DAVID: I agree only that a new gene theoretically might appear and its expression will be tightly controlled.dhw: Yes, of course. There would be no point in a new gene appearing if it didn’t have a particular function.
DAVID: I totally disagree that evolution is ongoing. God has stopped producing it having reached His goal of humans. […]
dhw: That is not the point of our discussion. You objected to my ‘theory’ because you said there was no such thing as new genes. Objection withdrawn. Then you objected because it relied on random mutations, but my theory doesn’t even mention random mutations, and I do not believe in them as the driving force of evolution. Now you object because you have a theory that evolution is finished. OK, then change my tense to “was”, and please tell me at last what you object to.
Currently the human gene study tells us there are many mutations in existing genes and humans are still humans. Where is your theory?
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 11:01 (1529 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I have not mentioned and in fact oppose the concept of chance mutations! That is a total digression. Please tell me what is wrong with what I have written.
DAVID: The human genome study, about thirty years old, shows that all of us, unchanged, are filled with genes with mutations making each of us slightly different.
dhw: Irrelevant to our subject of speciation.
DAVID: All mutations are relevant to the speciation issue.
How is the fact that we are all slightly different relevant to speciation? These mutations are within the same species!
dhw: You have already agreed that new genes exist. I have proposed that speciation is accompanied by new genes or old genes taking on new roles. That is how my ‘theory’ relates to speciation! According to your version of Behe, evolutionary “advances always result from loss of genes”, and “I view evolution as over and Behe's probable explanation of speciation as a very cogent avenue for a new theory of speciation.” I assumed that meant speciation, but now you suddenly change your terminology:
DAVID: Behe is presenting a reason for species modification.
dhw: Species modification is not speciation! The bear example shows that, just like the article we have been discussing, this theory relates to ADAPTATION, which you agree “goes on either by deletion or gene modification”. It makes perfect sense that when a species adapts to different conditions, certain genes will become unnecessary. But then I would argue that the changes (why “advances”?) do not RESULT from loss of genes: loss of genes is the result of the changes, because they are no longer needed. Let me stress again that I’m not arguing here with Behe. I’m arguing with the muddled case you have presented.
DAVID: Behe calls his finding "Darwin devolves" and believes his analysis may well tell us how speciation occurs. What I presented is not muddled, but counter to one of your favorite theories straight out of Neo-Darwin.
You began by telling us that evolutionary “advances always result from loss of genes”, which I challenged. This was diluted into Behe presents “a reason for species modification” (which sounds to me like changes within the same species, and not speciation), and now you tell me Behe believes this “may well tell us” how speciation occurs. You keep modifying your interpretation of Behe, and changing your objections to my own proposal: first it was “no new genes” (but there are), then it was random mutations (irrelevant to my proposal), and then it was that evolution is no longer on-going, which is irrelevant to the cause of speciation. Here comes the next objection:
DAVID: Currently the human gene study tells us there are many mutations in existing genes and humans are still humans. Where is your theory?
What do you mean “where is your theory”? My theory, proposed in response to your version of Behe’s theory, concerns speciation. But mutations within existing species which lead to variations within that existing species are irrelevant to the subject of speciation! Has the human gene study now proved that no species in the history of life has ever contained new genes? My theory is that speciation entails the production of new genes (you now agree they exist), new uses for old genes (do you disagree?), and the discarding of genes that are no longer of any use. Now please tell me which of these proposals you object to, and why you think that speciation can only be achieved by loss of genes.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 19:23 (1528 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Behe is presenting a reason for species modification.
dhw: Species modification is not speciation! The bear example shows that, just like the article we have been discussing, this theory relates to ADAPTATION, which you agree “goes on either by deletion or gene modification”. It makes perfect sense that when a species adapts to different conditions, certain genes will become unnecessary. But then I would argue that the changes (why “advances”?) do not RESULT from loss of genes: loss of genes is the result of the changes, because they are no longer needed. Let me stress again that I’m not arguing here with Behe. I’m arguing with the muddled case you have presented.
DAVID: Behe calls his finding "Darwin devolves" and believes his analysis may well tell us how speciation occurs. What I presented is not muddled, to counter to one of your favorite theories straight out of Neo-Darwin.
dhw: You began by telling us that evolutionary “advances always result from loss of genes”, which I challenged. This was diluted into Behe presents “a reason for species modification” (which sounds to me like changes within the same species, and not speciation), and now you tell me Behe believes this “may well tell us” how speciation occurs. You keep modifying your interpretation of Behe, and changing your objections to my own proposal: first it was “no new genes” (but there are), then it was random mutations (irrelevant to my proposal), and then it was that evolution is no longer on-going, which is irrelevant to the cause of speciation. Here comes the next objection:
DAVID: Currently the human gene study tells us there are many mutations in existing genes and humans are still humans. Where is your theory?
dhw: What do you mean “where is your theory”? My theory, proposed in response to your version of Behe’s theory, concerns speciation. But mutations within existing species which lead to variations within that existing species are irrelevant to the subject of speciation! Has the human gene study now proved that no species in the history of life has ever contained new genes? My theory is that speciation entails the production of new genes (you now agree they exist), new uses for old genes (do you disagree?), and the discarding of genes that are no longer of any use. Now please tell me which of these proposals you object to, and why you think that speciation can only be achieved by loss of genes.
Because Behe's entire book is a recitation of gene loss in several different branches of life: woolly mammoths, Yersinia pestis, African cichlid, dog breeding, etc. His whole point is change by DNA loss. And of course the necessity for intelligent design. New genes may appear but how much are they expressed and to what degree? Behe never shows changes due to new genes. But of course that is not his point. I am not aware of any study that shows new genes producing anything of importance. Behe even shows the Lenski E. coli study has not produced anything of great importance, just minor changes in the metabolism of the same species.
Evolution: vertebrate driving genes; not Behe
by David Turell , Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 20:40 (1528 days ago) @ David Turell
The appearance early in evolution of genes that causes vertebrate animals to appear:
https://phys.org/news/2020-09-scientists-gene-family-key-vertebrate.html
"New University of Colorado Boulder-led research finds that the traits that make vertebrates distinct from invertebrates were made possible by the emergence of a new set of genes 500 million years ago, documenting an important episode in evolution where new genes played a significant role in the evolution of novel traits in vertebrates. (my bold)
"The findings, published today in Nature, show that a gene family only found in vertebrates is critical for forming the head skeleton and other traits unique to them during embryonic development.
"'Every animal essentially has the same basic core set of Lego pieces to make them. What this paper shows is that vertebrates have a few special pieces in addition to that, and we identify those special pieces," said Daniel Medeiros,
***
"The researchers found this gene family is responsible for allowing neural crest cells—cells that develop into unique vertebrate traits like skeletal parts, pigment cells and our peripheral nervous system—to proliferate and specialize into different roles throughout the body."
Comment: This certainly shows new genes creating new species in vertebrates. So what is Behe showing? Note my bold. This is early speciation in evolution. Perhaps what Behe is showing is the speciation mechanism in late evolution only. The story still unfolds.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Thursday, September 17, 2020, 10:34 (1528 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: My theory, proposed in response to your version of Behe’s theory, concerns speciation. But mutations within existing species which lead to variations within that existing species are irrelevant to the subject of speciation! Has the human gene study now proved that no species in the history of life has ever contained new genes? My theory is that speciation entails the production of new genes (you now agree they exist), new uses for old genes (do you disagree?), and the discarding of genes that are no longer of any use. Now please tell me which of these proposals you object to, and why you think that speciation can only be achieved by loss of genes.
Because Behe's entire book is a recitation of gene loss in several different branches of life: woolly mammoths, Yersinia pestis, African cichlid, dog breeding, etc. His whole point is change by DNA loss.
I understand, but you have told us that his examples refer to changes within existing species, and this “may well tell us how speciation occurs”. But it clearly doesn’t at the moment, according to your presentation of Behe. (I’m not arguing with Behe but with you.) The example you gave us (polar bears having lost genes that are found in grizzly and brown bears) can simply be explained by the fact that different environments make certain genes unnecessary. And I do not think the polar bear counts as an “advance” on other varieties of bear.
DAVID: And of course the necessity for intelligent design. New genes may appear but how much are they expressed and to what degree? Behe never shows changes due to new genes. But of course that is not his point. I am not aware of any study that shows new genes producing anything of importance. Behe even shows the Lenski E. coli study has not produced anything of great importance, just minor changes in the metabolism of the same species.
I must commend you yet again for your integrity in drawing our attention to this article, which invalidates the above:
"New University of Colorado Boulder-led research finds that the traits that make vertebrates distinct from invertebrates were made possible by the emergence of a new set of genes 500 million years ago, documenting an important episode in evolution where new genes played a significant role in the evolution of novel traits in vertebrates. (David’s bold)
DAVID: This certainly shows new genes creating new species in vertebrates. So what is Behe showing? Note my bold. This is early speciation in evolution. Perhaps what Behe is showing is the speciation mechanism in late evolution only. The story still unfolds.
Yes indeed, and may I suggest that this story provides support for my proposal, though I’m happy to modify this by omitting “ongoing” and even “constant”: the process of evolution entails the acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes, which will be weeded out by natural selection. Now please tell me your objections. Your example above also argues against the theory that evolutionary “advances always result from loss of genes”.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Thursday, September 17, 2020, 18:54 (1527 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: My theory, proposed in response to your version of Behe’s theory, concerns speciation. But mutations within existing species which lead to variations within that existing species are irrelevant to the subject of speciation! Has the human gene study now proved that no species in the history of life has ever contained new genes? My theory is that speciation entails the production of new genes (you now agree they exist), new uses for old genes (do you disagree?), and the discarding of genes that are no longer of any use. Now please tell me which of these proposals you object to, and why you think that speciation can only be achieved by loss of genes.
David: Because Behe's entire book is a recitation of gene loss in several different branches of life: woolly mammoths, Yersinia pestis, African cichlid, dog breeding, etc. His whole point is change by DNA loss.
dhw: I understand, but you have told us that his examples refer to changes within existing species, and this “may well tell us how speciation occurs”. But it clearly doesn’t at the moment, according to your presentation of Behe. (I’m not arguing with Behe but with you.) The example you gave us (polar bears having lost genes that are found in grizzly and brown bears) can simply be explained by the fact that different environments make certain genes unnecessary. And I do not think the polar bear counts as an “advance” on other varieties of bear.
DAVID: And of course the necessity for intelligent design. New genes may appear but how much are they expressed and to what degree? Behe never shows changes due to new genes. But of course that is not his point. I am not aware of any study that shows new genes producing anything of importance. Behe even shows the Lenski E. coli study has not produced anything of great importance, just minor changes in the metabolism of the same species.
I must commend you yet again for your integrity in drawing our attention to this article, which invalidates the above:
"New University of Colorado Boulder-led research finds that the traits that make vertebrates distinct from invertebrates were made possible by the emergence of a new set of genes 500 million years ago, documenting an important episode in evolution where new genes played a significant role in the evolution of novel traits in vertebrates. (David’s bold)
DAVID: This certainly shows new genes creating new species in vertebrates. So what is Behe showing? Note my bold. This is early speciation in evolution. Perhaps what Behe is showing is the speciation mechanism in late evolution only. The story still unfolds.
dhw: Yes indeed, and may I suggest that this story provides support for my proposal, though I’m happy to modify this by omitting “ongoing” and even “constant”: the process of evolution entails the acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes, which will be weeded out by natural selection. Now please tell me your objections. Your example above also argues against the theory that evolutionary “advances always result from loss of genes”.
You are correct. I'm searching, still trying to sort out the issue of DNA loss and evolution, still learning from new information. What appears so far is during recent times modifications come with DNA loss. This current study favors God dabbling new genes rather than a total pre-programming setup. It is one or the other.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Friday, September 18, 2020, 11:09 (1527 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: New University of Colorado Boulder-led research finds that the traits that make vertebrates distinct from invertebrates were made possible by the emergence of a new set of genes 500 million years ago, documenting an important episode in evolution where new genes played a significant role in the evolution of novel traits in vertebrates. (David’s bold)
DAVID: This certainly shows new genes creating new species in vertebrates. So what is Behe showing? Note my bold. This is early speciation in evolution. Perhaps what Behe is showing is the speciation mechanism in late evolution only. The story still unfolds.
dhw: Yes indeed, and may I suggest that this story provides support for my proposal, though I’m happy to modify this by omitting “ongoing” and even “constant”: the process of evolution entails the acquisition of new genes (or new functions for old genes) and loss of unwanted genes, which will be weeded out by natural selection. Now please tell me your objections. Your example above also argues against the theory that evolutionary bb“advances always result from loss of genes”.
DAVID: You are correct. I'm searching, still trying to sort out the issue of DNA loss and evolution, still learning from new information. What appears so far is during recent times modifications come with DNA loss. This current study favors God dabbling new genes rather than a total pre-programming setup. It is one or the other.
Thank you. I’m not convinced that every scientist will come to agree that speciation can only have been caused by your God dabbling rather than preprogramming, but once more I appreciate your integrity in showing us this article to support my proposal.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Thursday, February 18, 2021, 01:53 (1374 days ago) @ David Turell
A new Darwinist paper that supports Behe:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41437-021-00403-2
Abstract:
"Discoveries of adaptive gene knockouts and widespread losses of complete genes have in recent years led to a major rethink of the early view that loss-of-function alleles are almost always deleterious. Today, surveys of population genomic diversity are revealing extensive loss-of-function and gene content variation, yet the adaptive significance of much of this variation remains unknown. Here we examine the evolutionary dynamics of adaptive loss of function through the lens of population genomics and consider the challenges and opportunities of studying adaptive loss-of-function alleles using population genetics models. We discuss how the theoretically expected existence of allelic heterogeneity, defined as multiple functionally analogous mutations at the same locus, has proven consistent with empirical evidence and why this impedes both the detection of selection and causal relationships with phenotypes. We then review technical progress towards new functionally explicit population genomic tools and genotype-phenotype methods to overcome these limitations. More broadly, we discuss how the challenges of studying adaptive loss of function highlight the value of classifying genomic variation in a way consistent with the functional concept of an allele from classical population genetics.
***
"Only relatively recently, through discoveries enabled by the availability of molecular sequence data, were alternative views of adaptive loss-of-function alleles formalized, most notably with the “less is more” ideas proposed by Olson (1999). Classical paradigms of molecular evolution had by that time been challenged, for example, by evidence that natural loss-of-function variants of CCR5 lead to reduced HIV susceptibility in humans (Libert et al. 1998). Discoveries during the subsequent two decades have continued to support the idea that loss of function contributes to adaptation (Murray 2020), with cases of adaptive or beneficial loss of function being discovered across diverse organisms, genes, traits, and environments.
***
"Comparisons of gene content between distantly related species have revealed considerable evidence for adaptation via complete deletion of genes or even entire sets of functionally related genes (Wang et al. 2006; Blomme et al. 2006; Will et al. 2010; McLean et al. 2011; Griesmann et al. 2018; van Velzen et al. 2018; Sharma et al. 2018; Huelsmann et al. 2019; McGowen et al. 2020; Baggs et al. 2020).
***
"First principles and empirical evidence indicate that many types of mutations can have effects that are equivalent to total gene loss, and for the purposes of this review, we employ this definition of complete gene losses being functionally equivalent to other loss-of-function mutations such as premature stop codons. However, there is the practical difficulty that these different types of mutations vary in how easily they can be detected and correctly annotated as loss-of-function alleles."
Comment: This is a Darwinist article in Nature!!! (Actually, Nature Heredity) Devolution does exist and is recognized by folks not at all related to ID. Much of the article discusses the difficulties in identifying the devolutionary mutations. Many articles are referenced in this review article. So, Behe's theory is well known outside ID.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by dhw, Thursday, February 18, 2021, 11:19 (1374 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: Discoveries during the subsequent two decades have continued to support the idea that loss of function contributes to adaptation (Murray 2020), with cases of adaptive or beneficial loss of function being discovered across diverse organisms, genes, traits, and environments.
DAVID: Devolution does exist and is recognized by folks not at all related to ID. Much of the article discusses the difficulties in identifying the devolutionary mutations. Many articles are referenced in this review article. So, Behe's theory is well known outside ID.
The word used throughout this article is “adaptation”. You originally claimed that Behe’s theory related to speciation, and I agree that there is no fixed dividing line between adaptation and speciation, but this does not alter the fact that in new conditions, some genes and traits will no longer be needed. That does not mean loss of traits CAUSES adaptation/speciation. It accompanies adaptation/speciation. So what are you hoping to prove?
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Thursday, February 18, 2021, 16:04 (1373 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: Discoveries during the subsequent two decades have continued to support the idea that loss of function contributes to adaptation (Murray 2020), with cases of adaptive or beneficial loss of function being discovered across diverse organisms, genes, traits, and environments.
DAVID: Devolution does exist and is recognized by folks not at all related to ID. Much of the article discusses the difficulties in identifying the devolutionary mutations. Many articles are referenced in this review article. So, Behe's theory is well known outside ID.
dhw: The word used throughout this article is “adaptation”. You originally claimed that Behe’s theory related to speciation, and I agree that there is no fixed dividing line between adaptation and speciation, but this does not alter the fact that in new conditions, some genes and traits will no longer be needed. That does not mean loss of traits CAUSES adaptation/speciation. It accompanies adaptation/speciation. So what are you hoping to prove?
Obviously the article does not help us in knowing how speciation occurs. This is simply more information that adaptation can result from loss of genes, as you note. The oddity is in that adaptation seems to require loss of information or a rearrangement of information so necessary previously hidden information can appear. Proof: it appears necessary future information is planted beforehand, in anticipation of need, just what you reject.
Evolution: Cambrian animal start defined
by David Turell , Thursday, November 04, 2021, 13:44 (1114 days ago) @ David Turell
The beginning form of Bryozoa found:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04033-w
"Abstract
Bryozoans (also known as ectoprocts or moss animals) are aquatic, dominantly sessile, filter-feeding lophophorates that construct an organic or calcareous modular colonial (clonal) exoskeleton1. The presence of six major orders of bryozoans with advanced polymorphisms in lower Ordovician rocks strongly suggests a Cambrian origin for the largest and most diverse lophophorate phylum. However, a lack of convincing bryozoan fossils from the Cambrian period has hampered resolution of the true origins and character assembly of the earliest members of the group. Here we interpret the millimetric, erect, bilaminate, secondarily phosphatized fossil Protomelission gatehousei from the early Cambrian of Australia and South China as a potential stem-group bryozoan. The monomorphic zooid capsules, modular construction, organic composition and simple linear budding growth geometry represent a mixture of organic Gymnolaemata and biomineralized Stenolaemata character traits, with phylogenetic analyses identifying P. gatehousei as a stem-group bryozoan. This aligns the origin of phylum Bryozoa with all other skeletonized phyla in Cambrian Age 3, pushing back its first occurrence by approximately 35 million years. It also reconciles the fossil record with molecular clock estimations of an early Cambrian origination and subsequent Ordovician radiation of Bryozoa following the acquisition of a carbonate skeleton.
***
"Although the last common ancestor of total-group Bryozoa remains enigmatic, the organic nature and basal phylogenetic position of Protomelission support the interpretation that crown-group Bryozoa most probably evolved from a colonial (rather than solitary) ancestor with skeletal biomineralization independently evolving at least twice across two major bryozoan clades in post-Cambrian times; the Stenolaemata during the Early Ordovician and the Gymnolaemata (Cheilostomata) in the Jurassic period. (my bold)
"The discovery of a stem bryozoan in the Cambrian narrows the origination gap that previously existed between the known fossil record and independent molecular clock estimates. Our results push back the fossil record of the Bryozoa by approximately 35 million years and show that the colonial body-plan of Bryozoa can be traced back to the early Cambrian, coincident with other major metazoan phyla belonging to the deuterostomes, lophotrochozoans and ecdysozoans. The miniaturized body-plan, much thinner, unmineralized cuticles (compared to arthropods and ‘worms’) and hard substrate habitat of early bryozoans such as P. gatehousei explain the poor fossil record and cryptic history of bryozoan stem taxa in the Cambrian. However, the rapid diversification of the Bryozoa, during the Ordovician probably coincides with calcite seas, increasing hardground development and more robust biomineralization, leading to increased bryozoan colony size (centimetre to decimetre scale) and enhancing fossilization potential."
Comment: note my bold, 'no last common ancestor known' is the mantra of Cambrian animals. The scientists are still finding fossils that do not close the gap but support it.
Evolution: strange changes in DNA form
by David Turell , Saturday, November 06, 2021, 14:15 (1112 days ago) @ David Turell
Strange DNA forms found in reptiles:
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/dust-specks-which-are-actually-building-...
"Scientists have discovered that tiny ‘microchromosomes’ in birds and reptiles are the same as the tiny chromosomes in a spineless fish-like ancestor that lived 684 million years ago.
"When these little microchromosomes were first seen under the microscope, scientists thought they were just specks of dust scattered among the larger bird chromosomes, but they are actually proper chromosomes with many genes on them.
"They prove to be the building blocks of all animal genomes, but underwent a ‘dizzying rearrangement’ in mammals, including humans.
***
“'Not only are they the same in each species, but they crowd together in the centre of the nucleus where they physically interact with each other, suggesting functional coherence,” Dr Waters says.
“'This strange behaviour is not true of the large chromosomes in our genomes.”
***
“'We lined up these sequences from birds, turtles, snakes and lizards, platypus and humans and compared them,” she says.
“'Astonishingly, the microchromosomes were the same across all bird and reptile species.”
“'Even more astonishingly, they were the same as the tiny chromosomes of Amphioxus – a little fish-like animal with no backbone that last shared a common ancestor with vertebrates 684 million years ago.”
"Prof Graves says in marsupial and placental mammals these ancient genetic remnants are split up into little patches on our big, supposedly normal, chromosomes.
"'Mammal genomes have been hammered when compared to other vertebrates.”
"The findings highlight the need to rethink how we view the human genome.
“'Rather than being ‘normal’, chromosomes of humans and other mammals were puffed up with lots of ‘junk DNA’ and scrambled in many different ways,” Prof Graves says.
“'The new knowledge helps explain why there is such a large range of mammals with vastly different genomes inhabiting every corner of our planet.
Comment: Now great gaps in DNA forms of organization. This can be added to the great Cambrian gap in body form. Another gap problem is the issue of Old and New World monkeys appearance in the time record with the Africa/South America split long before:
https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/20/10/1620/1164065
"the vicariant scenario for the origin of Platyrrhini from primitive prosimian stocks in Gondwanaland seems improbable because the separation of Africa and South America happened between 120 and 100 MYA and our divergence time dates a much younger split. Therefore, the assumption that Platyrrhini ancestors dispersed to the South American island continent at about the Eocene-Oligocene boundary seems likely, but a source continent must be elected."
Comment: the appearance of New World monkeys is estimated at 35-70 million years ago. Gaps are everywhere.
Evolution: giant aquatic arthropods 470 mya
by David Turell , Tuesday, December 13, 2022, 17:25 (710 days ago) @ David Turell
Just discovered in Morocco:
https://phys.org/news/2022-12-fossil-site-reveals-giant-arthropods.html
"Discoveries at a major new fossil site in Morocco suggest giant arthropods—relatives of modern creatures including shrimps, insects and spiders—dominated the seas 470 million years ago.
"Early evidence from the site at Taichoute, once undersea but now a desert, records numerous large "free-swimming" arthropods.
"More research is needed to analyse these fragments, but based on previously described specimens, the giant arthropods could be up to 2m long.
***
"Dr. Xiaoya Ma, from the University of Exeter and Yunnan University, added: "While the giant arthropods we discovered have not yet been fully identified, some may belong to previously described species of the Fezouata Biota, and some will certainly be new species.
***
"Fossils discovered in these rocks include mineralised elements (eg shells), but some also show exceptional preservation of soft parts such as internal organs, allowing scientists to investigate the anatomy of early animal life on Earth.
"Animals of the Fezouata Shale, in Morocco's Zagora region, lived in a shallow sea that experienced repeated storm and wave activities, which buried the animal communities and preserved them in place as exceptional fossils.
"However, nektonic (or free-swimming) animals remain a relatively minor component overall in the Fezouata Biota.
***
"'Even when it comes to trilobites, new species so far unknown from the Fezouata Biota are found in Taichoute.'"
Comment: this new find fits dhw's theory that there is much new that we will find. I agree. The Cambrian gap is here to stay, I believe
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 05, 2022, 21:06 (1052 days ago) @ David Turell
Flying fish research supports Behe, showing loss of function DNA change:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/flying-fish-and-aquarium-pets-yield-secrets-of-evolution...
"To escape predators beneath the waves, a flying fish can shoot out of the water and glide long distances because its paired pectoral and pelvic fins, longer and more rigid than those of other fish, act as airfoils. In a quirky triumph of evolution, creatures that were once strictly aquatic transformed into temporarily airborne ones through a few modifications in body shape.
"Recently, a group of researchers led by Matthew Harris of Harvard Medical School and Boston Children’s Hospital reported the genetic basis for the evolution of those unusual fins: Through an innovative combination of techniques, they discovered that changes in just two genes were sufficient to create the distinctive body shape of flying fishes. When those mutations occurred in a species of common aquarium fish, its proportions began to shift in similar ways.
***
"To search for the genetic basis of the flying fish’s body shape, researchers in the Harris lab began by sequencing and comparing the genomes of 35 species of flying fish and their close relatives. By looking for regions of DNA that had changed unusually quickly between species, they identified genes that seemed to have evolved under selection pressure.
***
"The researchers showed that in zebra fish, loss-of-function mutations in the leucine transporter cause all fins to be short, while the overexpression mutation of the potassium channels causes all fins to be long. Either of those mutations by itself produces a clumsy fish. But when the two mutations are combined, the resulting zebra fish has long paired pectoral fins and shorter median fins, exactly the form of the flying fish. (my bold)
***
"The flying fish body plan evolved independently several times in various lineages, and it always relied on the same types of mutations in the leucine transporter and the potassium channel. The leucine transporter mutations in the different lineages are not identical, but they cause the same amino acid change — a clue that the lineages independently hit on the same genetic trick to evolve this shape. “Nature has targeted the same specific gene in a couple of different contexts,” said Sarah McMenamin, a fish evolutionary developmental biologist at Boston College."
Comment: more strong support for Behe's approach that evolution devolves to advance
Evolution: mass extinctions relate to volcanos
by David Turell , Tuesday, February 01, 2022, 15:25 (1025 days ago) @ David Turell
Hot or cold eruptions are the key:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/31/low-volcanic-temperature-ushered-in-global-cooli...
"Researchers in Japan, Sweden, and the US have unearthed evidence that low volcanic temperatures led to the fourth mass extinction, enabling dinosaurs to flourish during the Jurassic period.
"Large volcanic eruptions create climatic fluctuations, ushering in evolutionary changes. Yet it is the volcanic temperature of the eruption that determines whether the climate cools or warms. (my bold)
"Since the emergence of early animals, five mass extinctions have taken place. The fourth mass extinction occurred at the end of the Triassic Period – roughly 201 million years ago. This mass extinction saw many marine and land animals go extinct, especially large-body, crocodilian-line reptiles known as pseudosuchia. Approximately 60-70% of animal species disappeared. As a result, small bodied dinosaurs were able to grow and prosper.
***
"Using analysis of sedimentary organic molecules and a heating experiment, current professor emeritus at Tohoku University, Kunio Kaiho and his team demonstrated how low temperature magma slowly heated sedimentary rocks, causing high sulfur dioxide (SO2) and low carbon dioxide emissions (CO2).
"The SO2 gas was distributed throughout the stratosphere, converting to sulfuric acid aerosols. The instantaneous increase of global albedo caused short-term cooling, which could have contributed to the mass extinction.
"Kaiho and his team took marine sedimentary rock samples from Austria and the United Kingdom and analyzed the organic molecules and mercury (Hg) in them. They found four discrete benzo[e]pyrene + benzo[ghi]perylene + coronene -Hg enrichments.
"The discovery of low coronene in the first enrichment was particularly revealing. The second, third, and fifth mass extinction had high coronene concentrations. A low concentration indicates that low temperature heating caused high SO2 release and global cooling.
“'We believe the extinction was the product of large volcanic eruptions because the benzo[e]pyrene + benzo[ghi]perylene + coronene anomaly could only be seen around the time frame of the mass extinctions,” said Kaiho."
Comment: From an ID standpoint, God took advantage of the climate changes to advance evolution
Evolution: sudden change from a gene loss
by David Turell , Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 19:37 (1010 days ago) @ David Turell
Supports Behe:
https://phys.org/news/2022-02-sudden-evolutionary.html
"Hodges, doctoral student Zachary Cabin and their colleagues just have identified a case of a sudden evolutionary change. In the journal Current Biology, the scientists describe a population of columbines that have lost their petals, including the characteristic nectar spurs. A drastic change caused by a mutation in a single gene. The finding adds weight to the idea that adaptation can occur in large jumps, rather than merely plodding along over extended timespans.
***
"The question then remains whether many small changes occurred in a short period of time, or perhaps whether single large-scale mutation might be responsible. So, researchers really have to catch the development in action if they hope to build a case that sudden changes can drive evolution.
"Enter the Colorado blue columbine. In one population, a mutation has caused many of the plants to lose their petals with the iconic nectar spurs. While not an uncommon occurrence in columbines, spurlessness seems to have stuck around in this area: About a quarter of the plants lack the distinctive feature.
"The team plumbed the plant's genome to find the source of the unusual morphology. They considered a gene, APETALA3-3, known to affect spur development. They found that this single gene controlled the entire development of the flower's spurs and nectaries.
"'The gene is either on or off, so it's about as simple of a change you can get," said lead author Zachary Cabin. "But that simple difference causes a radical change in morphology."
***
"'This finding shows that evolution can occur in a big jump if the right kind of gene is involved," Hodges said. APETALA3-3 tells the developing organ to become a petal. "When it's broken, those instructions aren't there anymore, and that causes it to develop into a completely different organ, a sepal," he explained."
Comment: This is devolution, not real evolution and demonstrates Darwinist faith bias.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Monday, May 02, 2022, 19:51 (935 days ago) @ David Turell
A supportive view of Behe. Gene loss drives innovation:
https://ecoevocommunity.nature.com/posts/do-harmful-mutations-have-a-constructive-role-...
"In our new work (Farkas et al, 2022), we challenge this view and propose that gene loss is an internal driving force in creating new morphologies. This might sound very odd to many readers. It is easier to mess up the normal functioning of a gene than to improve it. Therefore, loss-of-function mutations are prevalent in the genomes of many species, including humans. But losing a molecular function is unlikely to be a good thing. So, how can gene loss be a creative evolutionary force?
"Well, luckily for us, and all other species on the planet, such detrimental, loss-of-function mutations do not remain unnoticed by evolution. So-called compensatory mutations in other genes can fix the damage incurred by gene loss. Therefore, one can envisage this process as a co-evolutionary dance between the harmful and the corresponding compensatory mutations. The central issue is whether this process has any enduring effects on morphological traits. We addressed this issue by studying the evolution of baker’s yeast morphology in the laboratory.
***
"...baker’s yeast was an excellent choice. It is not only an important species for humans to make delicious bread, beer, and wine, but also a well-studied model organism in biology. Researchers can readily introduce deleterious mutations into its genome and investigate potential compensatory mutations that spontaneously arise. There are also large collections of baker’s yeast strains, each lacking a single gene, created by geneticists. Some of the gene deletions are harmful, causing slow microbial growth, and thereby serving as a perfect starting point for compensatory evolution.
"Compensatory evolution in the lab occurred immensely rapidly. In no more than 100 days, over half of the slow-growing mutant yeasts recovered their normal growth in an optimal laboratory condition without any external stress. But do these compensated strains also show normal morphology? Or do they change their look as a side-effect of compensatory evolution? The latter scenario is plausible given the many genes that affect morphology in baker’s yeast.
***
"It is important to point out that the original, unmutated strain we used, cannot grow invasively or make clumps, and only form a small biofilm. Despite these, it was stunning to see that each of the above multicellular behavior appeared or was enhanced in some of our compensated strains. On top of this, the appearance of the same traits in different strains was caused by mutations in various genes. In the case of invasive growth, the effectiveness of the cells to enter into a surface was comparable to what we saw across natural strains capable of growing invasively. All of these findings suggest that compensatory evolution might also contribute to the emergence of clinically relevant microbial traits.
***
"Our work is the first to systematically test this hypothesis and provides empirical evidence that deleterious mutations can frequently contribute to novel phenotypes. A second debate concerns the possible role of large-effect mutations in evolution. According to the dominant view, phenotypic evolution proceeds in small discrete steps, because large-effect mutations often have deleterious side effects. However, our work demonstrates that such deleterious side-effects can be readily alleviated by compensatory evolution while a novel phenotype is being created. Hence, compensatory evolution in the lab can generate “hopeful monsters”, organisms with normal fitness despite having an atypical phenotype. Probably the most exciting open question is whether compensatory evolution really contributes to the morphological diversity seen in nature. By demonstrating that compensatory evolution does have the potential to create new morphologies in the lab, our results can hopefully open an avenue to get closer to the answer."
Comment: this study carries the theory of gene loss influencing evolution by 'compensatory evolution' to a new state of thought. Behne was not wrong. The genome was designed all along to compensate when necessary to carry evolution forward. going backward dos not appear to be allowed.
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Wednesday, August 10, 2022, 22:58 (835 days ago) @ David Turell
Found in woolly mammoth evolution:
https://phys.org/news/2022-08-genes-lost-woolly-mammoth-evolution.html
"A new study shows that 87 genes have been affected by deletions or short insertions during the course of the mammoth's evolution. The researchers note that their findings have implications for international efforts to resurrect extinct species, including the woolly mammoth.
***
"The researchers behind the study have sequenced two new Siberian mammoth genomes from the last ice age, and compared these with a total of 33 previously published genomes from mammoths, Asian elephants and African elephants.
"Losing part of a gene, a gene deletion, will affect its function. Similarly, short insertions lead to frame-shift mutations that can make the genes unreadable. The results show that there are many thousands of deletions and short insertions across the mammoth's genome, comprising more than three million letters in the genetic code. Overall, the researchers found that most of these did not occur within genes, indicating they generally have had a negative impact on mammoth viability.
"'However, we did also find 84 genes that have been affected by genomic deletions and three that have been affected by short insertions. These structural changes likely had a significant impact on the function of these genes and might have contributed to some of the unique adaptations of the woolly mammoth," says Tom van der Valk, a researcher at the Centre for Palaeogenetics.
***
"The change in functionality in these 87 genes may have been important for mammoths as they evolved adaptations to the cold environment in the far north. Many adaptive traits, such as body size and cold tolerance, are regulated by several different genes. Losses of some of these genes can therefore affect the functional pathways that shape the development of these adaptive traits.
"'Several of the genes that have been affected are related to classic woolly mammoth traits such as fur growth and hair shape, fat deposition, as well as skeletal morphology and ear shape," says Marianne Dehasque, a Ph.D. student on mammoth genomics at the Centre for Palaeogenetics."
Comment: once again seen as part of a species adaptations, and not speciaton
Evolution: a different view with loss of traits; not Behe
by David Turell , Friday, September 23, 2022, 19:15 (791 days ago) @ David Turell
From Quanta website:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/by-losing-genes-life-often-evolved-more-complexity-20200...
“'And that was the start of my frustration,” said Cañestro,... His team was unable to find certain genes within Oikopleura’s genome that should have been there because they are very conserved across animals. In particular, none of the genes involved in the synthesis, modification or degradation of retinoic acid were present. Nor was the receptor for retinoic acid. Yet retinoic acid signaling was thought to be essential for making a brain, nerve cord and other vital features. Furthermore, Oikopleura also lacks a gene that seemed critical for triggering the development of heart tissue.
"'We found a situation in which the things we thought were essential are not there, even though the structure [they make] is still there. And that makes you rethink the essentiality of some of the genes.”
"Two surprising analyses that appeared in Nature Ecology & Evolution early this year have hammered home just how inessential genes can be, and how creatively evolution can deal with losing them. By analyzing hundreds of genomes from across the animal kingdom, researchers in Spain and the United Kingdom showed that a startling degree of gene loss pervades the tree of life.
"Their results suggest that even early animals had relatively complex genomes because of an unprecedented spurt of gene duplication early in life’s history. Later, as lineages of animals evolved into different phyla with distinct body plans, many of their genes began to disappear, and gene loss continued to be a major factor in evolution thereafter. In fact, the loss of genes seems to have helped many groups of organisms split away from their ancestors and triumph over new environmental challenges.
***
"But in reality, the majority of gene losses during evolution are likely to be neutral, with no fitness consequences for the organism, says Michael Hiller, an evolutionary genomicist at the Max Planck Institute of Molecular Cell Biology and Genetics in Dresden, Germany.
"The reason is that evolutionary gene losses often occur after some change in the environment or behaviors makes a gene less necessary.
***
"One of the best examples of adaptive gene loss in animals can be seen in cetaceans (the order of aquatic mammals including whales and dolphins), which have lost 85 protein-coding genes seen in other mammals, as Hiller reported last year. Many of these losses are probably neutral, but some seem linked to diving-related adaptations, like the narrowing of blood vessels during diving. One of the lost genes, KLK8, is interesting because it is involved in the development both of sweat glands in the skin and of the hippocampus in the brain; cetaceans lost it during their transition from land back to water. The loss of this gene is linked to the development of a thicker epidermis and the loss of hair (hair is not adaptive in aquatic environments, where it creates drag and does not preserve body heat as it does in terrestrial animals). (my Bold)
***
"Dolphins and whales, Old World fruit bats, and elephants — three lineages with relatively big brains — have all lost a gene, HMGCS2, required for ketogenesis, a metabolic process that scientists had thought was required to support the activity and growth of large, energy-hungry brains. Brain cells consume glucose, but when that is unavailable, they fuel themselves with ketone bodies from fatty acids. HGMCS2, the enzyme that converts fatty acids into ketone bodies, becomes especially important during fasting.
***
"More generally, the pervasiveness of gene loss in the tree of life points to an inversion of a classic theme in evolutionary developmental biology. In the 1970s and ’80s, “the big shock was to find that flies and humans use the same genes,” Cañestro said. Replace the fly Pax6 gene with the human version, and the fly can still make an eye. “Now we are finding that sometimes the structures [that grow] are the same, but the genes responsible for making the structures have many differences,” he said. “How is it possible that there are so many different genes, and still the structures are the same? That’s the inverse paradox of evo-devo.'”
Comment: we here know all this about trait loss. They didn't note Behe's articles and book. Maybe Behe is persona non grata as a renowned ID'er. And note the 85 gene loss to go aquatic
Evolution: more advances related to more microRNA
by David Turell , Friday, December 16, 2022, 21:54 (707 days ago) @ David Turell
From octopus studies:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/12/221215130916.htm
"An international team led by researchers at Dartmouth College and the Max Delbrück Center (MDC) in Germany report in the journal Science Advancesthat octopuses are the first known invertebrates -- creatures that lack a backbone and constitute roughly 95% of animal species -- to contain a high number of gene-regulating molecules known as microRNAs. The genes of two octopus species show an increase in microRNAs -- which are linked to the development of advanced cells with specific functions -- over evolutionary time that has so far only been found in humans, mammals and other vertebrates.
"When combined with the known intelligence of octopuses, the findings provide crucial support for the theory that microRNAs are key to the evolution of intelligent life, said co-corresponding author Kevin Peterson, a Dartmouth professor of biological sciences. The nervous systems of octopuses and squids -- which both belong to a type of mollusk known as cephalopods -- evolved independently of vertebrates. Yet, the prevalence of microRNAs in both octopuses and vertebrates suggest a common role for the molecules in advanced cognition.
"'MicroRNAs are known as the 'dark matter' of the animal genome -- they don't make protein, but they regulate the expression of proteins," Peterson said, referring to the hypothetical form of matter thought to constitute most of the universe.
***
"Peterson's research has shown that creatures such as placental mammals whose genes have increased in number and complexity over evolutionary time also exhibit increasing concentrations of microRNAs. On the other hand, organisms such as parasites have lost ancestral genes -- and microRNAs -- as they have become less complex.
"'In order to have new cognitive abilities and behaviors requires new cell types," Peterson said. "The two places you get this -- in placental mammals and cephalopods -- is also where we see these microRNA-expressed genes. Animals that don't seem to have changed very much in the past 500 million years don't have very many microRNAs.
***
"This kind of intelligence potentially stems from microRNAs' role in diversifying cell function, said study co-author Bastian Fromm, a research group at the University of Tromsø in Norway who collaborates with the Peterson lab on its research and building the online microRNA database, MirGeneDB.
"Cells in complex organisms perform specialized tasks, which means surrounding cells need to be calibrated to carry out additional functions, Fromm said.
"'MicroRNAs are like light switches or dimmers that can turn on and regulate the expression of thousands of proteins in a cell and specify what the cell can do," Fromm said. "This is a numbers game. Oysters and slugs have microRNAs, but in cephalopods -- and especially the octopus -- there is an explosion of them that correlates with their intelligence.'"
Comment: MicroRNA's are 'control' switches as the article shows, Easy for God to dabble with that arrangement.
Evolution: hybridization in ants
by David Turell , Wednesday, December 21, 2022, 21:03 (702 days ago) @ David Turell
Common in wood ants:
https://phys.org/news/2022-12-rapid-genome-evolution-hybrid-ant.html
"Over the past ten years, the DNA sequencing revolution has revealed that mating between two different species, i.e., hybridization, once considered rare, is actually widespread across the tree of life. This came as a surprise—hybridization was considered mostly detrimental since offspring are not always viable and can be infertile, like mules. However, many studies showed that hybridization could have beneficial consequences and help populations adapt to new environments.
"For instance, in humans, Tibetan populations are adapted to low oxygen concentrations found under high altitudes thanks to genetic material acquired through hybridization, 50,000 years ago, between modern and archaic humans, now extinct populations (such as Neanderthals). This year, the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine was awarded to Svante Pääbo (Max Planck Institute) for his work on human evolution, including gene exchange between modern and archaic humans.
"Researchers at the University of Helsinki took advantage of distinct hybrid wood ant populations identified in Southern Finland to study whether hybridization was predictable. They found that after multiple hybridization events between two wood ant species, distinct hybrid populations evolved independently in the same direction. They are nowadays highly similar to one another in terms of genetic composition, suggesting that the outcome of hybridization is predictable. Researchers also determined that hybridization occurred less than 50 ant generations ago, approximately 125 years ago, making it a fairly rapid case of evolution in the wild.
***
"Finnish wood ants give the opportunity to observe multiple, very recent hybridization events, and the amount of predictability we found despite this recency is remarkably high, which is quite novel," explains researcher Pierre Nouhaud, from the Faculty of Biological and Environmental Sciences, University of Helsinki.
"'In the meantime, our study also confirms previous results obtained in a handful of species, including humans, suggesting the patterns we see in wood ants are quite general."
***
"'On an evolutionary timescale, we are dealing with recent events, less than 50 ant generations, which had very little time to leave footprints in DNA sequences. This means it can be hard to distinguish between competing hypotheses. In our study we performed computer simulations considering different evolutionary scenarios to take this uncertainty into account and ensure our results are robust," says Nouhaud."
'
Comment: this study shows that hybridization offers survival benefits. Note second paragraph discusses human benefits. This process does not advance evolution but creates variations on specific species. No intervention by God necessary.
Evolution: can natural forces drive evolution
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 04, 2023, 19:44 (415 days ago) @ David Turell
a far-out approach:
https://phys.org/news/2023-10-theory-physics-biology-evolution-complexity.html
"An international team of researchers has developed a new theoretical framework that bridges physics and biology to provide a unified approach for understanding how complexity and evolution emerge in nature.
"This new work on "assembly theory," published today in Nature, represents a major advance in our fundamental comprehension of biological evolution and how it is governed by the physical laws of the universe. The paper is titled "Assembly Theory Explains and Quantifies Selection and Evolution."
***
"In prior work, the team assigned a complexity score to molecules called the molecular assembly index, based on the minimal number of bond-forming steps required to build a molecule. They showed how this index is experimentally measurable and how high values correlate with life-derived molecules.
"The new study introduces mathematical formalism around a physical quantity called "assembly" that captures how much selection is required to produce a given set of complex objects, based on their abundance and assembly indices.
"'Assembly theory provides a completely new lens for looking at physics, chemistry and biology as different perspectives of the same underlying reality," explained lead author Professor Sara Walker, a theoretical physicist and origin of life researcher from Arizona State University.
"'With this theory, we can start to close the gap between reductionist physics and Darwinian evolution—it's a major step toward a fundamental theory unifying inert and living matter." (my bold)
"The researchers demonstrated how assembly theory can be applied to quantify selection and evolution in systems ranging from simple molecules to complex polymers and cellular structures.
"It explains both the discovery of new objects and the selection of existing ones, allowing open-ended increases in complexity characteristic of life and technology.
"'Assembly theory provides an entirely new way to look at the matter that makes up our world, as defined not just by immutable particles but by the memory needed to build objects through selection over time," said Professor Lee Cronin, a chemist from the University of Glasgow and co-lead author. (my bold)
***
"The researchers aim to further refine assembly theory and explore its applications for characterizing known and unknown life, and testing hypotheses about how life emerges from non-living matter.
"'A key feature of the theory is that it is experimentally testable," says Cronin. "This opens up the exciting possibility of using assembly theory to design new experiments that could solve the origin of life by creating living systems from scratch in the laboratory."
"The theory opens up many new questions and research directions at the boundary of the physical and life sciences. Overall, assembly theory promises to provide profound new insights into the physics underlying biological complexity and evolutionary innovation."
Comment: I really don't know what these authors are thinking that they can describe the origin of life from non-life by defining the physical force that can create biochemical molecules. Questions: what created the forces? what handles the required memory bolded above?
How can living and non-living matter be unified? Currently the only way we can experiment with life is to use living matter to manipulate. The gap between life and non-life is just like the Cambrian gap. Fixed forever.
Evolution: strange animals don't have to eat:
by David Turell , Thursday, October 05, 2023, 19:54 (414 days ago) @ David Turell
Acoels use symbiosis with algae:
https://phys.org/news/2023-10-tiny-solar-powered-animals.html
"Animals and plants need energy. Some animals get energy by eating other animals, and many plants harvest the energy in sunlight through photosynthesis. However, in the ocean, there exists a remarkable group of small, worm-like animals called acoels that do both; some acoels form relationships (symbiosis) with single-celled, photosynthetic microalgae.
"A study by Assistant Professor Kevin Wakeman and his undergraduate student, Siratee Riewluang, at Hokkaido University, Japan, has shed some light on the biodiversity underpinning symbiotic relationships between acoels and microalgae.
"Acoels are superficially simple. However, this simplicity is misleading. Due to their regenerative ability and position as one of the first animal groups on the planet, acoels interest biologists in the fields of evolutionary biology, regenerative biology, and neurobiology. Some acoels also form symbiotic relationships with microalgae. This includes green algae and other types of microalgae that also associate with coral reefs called dinoflagellates.
"'These acoels engulf microalgae seemingly as 'food,' but they do not digest them. Instead, they store them below their outer surface. They create energy using sunlight—much like adding solar panels to your house," explained Siratee.
***
"Unexpectedly, Wakeman and Siratee came across what might turn out to be a whole new group of acoels harboring symbionts (only one group is currently known).
"'We found that there was more diversity of acoels and their symbionts than we really expected," said Wakeman. "Even in this present dataset, which focuses on Japan, it's clear that there are fascinating interactions between acoels and microalgae. These results will lay the groundwork for future studies that can tease apart what are probably some interesting ecological mechanisms. I really am excited to see where this ends up."
"Wakeman and Siratee will continue work on photosynthetic acoels for Siratee's Master's degree.
"'It would be cool to figure out if they really are a new group of acoels with symbionts, but we need more genetic data and unambiguous morphological data to confidently assign a new name," said Siratee."
Comment: so, it is not a fully a dog-eat-dog world. Photosynthesis mitigates the problem for dhw.
Evolution: the angiosperm gap
by David Turell , Thursday, October 05, 2023, 20:34 (414 days ago) @ David Turell
Darwin decried it: The abrupt appearance of angiosperms bothered Darwin so much He called it an 'abominable mystery'. This article shows all of the plant world appeaered abruptly:
https://theconversation.com/how-did-plants-first-evolve-into-all-different-shapes-and-s...
"How did plants first evolve into all different shapes and sizes? We mapped a billion years of plant history to find out
"Plants range from simple seaweeds and single-celled pond scum, through to mosses, ferns and huge trees. Palaeontologists like us have long debated exactly how this diverse range of shapes and sizes emerged, and whether plants emerged from algae into multicellular and three-dimensional forms in a gradual flowering or one big bang.
"To answer this question, scientists turned to the fossil record. From those best-preserved examples, like trilobites, ammonites and sea urchins, they have invariably concluded that a group’s range of biological designs is achieved during the earliest periods in its evolutionary history. In turn, this has led to hypotheses that evolutionary lineages have a higher capacity for innovation early on and, after this first phase of exuberance, they stick with what they know. This even applies to us: all the different placental mammals evolved from a common ancestor surprisingly quickly. Is the same true of the plant kingdom?
***
"We then analysed all this data, grouping plants based on their overall similarities and differences, all plotted within what can be thought of as a “design space”. Since we know the evolutionary relationships between the species, we can also predict the traits of their extinct shared ancestors and include these hypothetical ancestors within the design space, too.
"For example, we will never find fossils of the ancestral flowering plant, but we know from its closest living descendants that it was bisexual, radially symmetric, with more than five spirally arranged carpels (the ovule-bearing female reproductive part of a flower). Together, data points from living species, fossils and predicted ancestors reveal how plant life has navigated design space through evolutionary history and over geological time.
"We expected flowering plants to dominate the design space since they make up more than 80% of plant species, but they don’t. In fact, the living bryophytes – mosses, liverworts and hornworts – achieve almost as much variety in their body forms.
"This may not be entirely surprising since the three lineages of bryophytes have been doing their own thing for more than three times as long as flowering plants. And despite their diminutive nature, even the humble mosses are extraordinarily complex and diverse when viewed through a microscope.
***
"...some of the distinctiveness of the different groupings in design space is clearly the result of extinction. This is clear if we consider the distribution of the fossil species (black dots in the above figure) that often occur between the clusters of living species (coloured dots in the figure). (my bold)
***
"So does that make plants different from animals, studies of which are the basis for the expectation of early evolutionary innovation and exhaustion? Not at all. Comparable studies that we have done on animals and fungi show that, when you study these multicellular kingdoms in their entirety, they all exhibit a pattern of episodically increasing anatomically variety. Individual lineages may soon exhaust themselves but, overall, the kingdoms keep on innovating.
"This suggests a general pattern for evolutionary innovation in multicellular kingdoms and also that animals, fungi and plants still have plenty of evolutionary juice in their tanks.
Comment: All the plant groups have no known predecessors. Note my bold. The authors simply invent missing fossils! (see their illustration). The author's conclusion that evolution is a drive toward complexity is exactly my thinking. The full article is analyzed in Evolution News:
https://evolutionnews.org/2023/10/plant-evolution-all-gaps-and-miracles/
130,000 observations. 548 traits. 400 species of living and fossil plants. This is what a team of 10 evolutionary biologists investigated in a major project to look for patterns of evolution in the plant kingdom. Publishing in Nature Plants, they reproduced their morphospace map of the major groups of plants. If described in words, it would go:
Bang! Algae
Bang! Bryophytes (mosses, liverworts, and hornworts)
Bang! Lycophytes (vascular plants including clubmosses)
Bang! Ferns (spore-bearing vascular plants)
Bang! Gymnosperms (seed-bearing cycads, ginkgoes, and conifers)
Bang! Angiosperms (flowering plants)
Subsequent to each bang, there were rapid variations, like the sparkly after-effects of complex fireworks. But the disparity between each bang is huge.
Comment: there follows a point by point analysis:
"Forcing the uncooperative data into an “evolutionary pattern” of ancestors and descendants branching into a treelike pattern of universal common ancestry required some imagination. This was easily accomplished using miracle words. Plants emerged. They expanded. They occupied design space. And sometimes, they reversed direction and converged."
The whole article is shown to be a series of magical conjectures.
Evolution: the angiosperm gap
by David Turell , Friday, October 27, 2023, 19:30 (392 days ago) @ David Turell
A new essay on the mystery:
https://twitter.com/RJABuggs/status/1699369829424054284?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E...
"This @NaturePlants n paper deserves to be widely known, but is not an easy read. Here is my lay interpretation of the abstract:
"There are several major types of plants, with different body plans. Some are single celled, others are much more complex. We don’t know how this diversity evolved. Here we use a big dataset to provide new evidence that the different types are very different (even when fossils are included). This is especially true of the structures that they use to reproduce. Assuming that the types evolved from each other, we build a model that shows that intermediates forms once existed; these must have disappeared without trace and we can't be specific about what they were. The major plant types have evolved in unique ways. Types with simple body plans can have lots of diversity in them, so it is not necessary to be complex to be diverse. More complex types tend to have larger gene families within them, so genome duplications are important for plant evolution. The different types of plants don’t appear all at once: each one appears suddenly and in diversity at a different time point (we also completely disprove the idea that the major types all appeared at once). The pattern we find in plants is a similar pattern to that shown by the major types of animals and fungi." (my bold)
Comment: another major gap. Note my bold. The Darwinian plea is there must be intermediates. Tell that to those who cry about the Cambrian gap. How about God, the designer who creates gaps?
Evolution: how the complex cell formed
by David Turell , Sunday, October 29, 2023, 17:02 (390 days ago) @ David Turell
A series of guesses and some accepted:
https://knowablemagazine.org/article/living-world/2023/how-endomembrane-system-of-eukar...
"More than 1.5 billion years ago, a momentous thing happened: Two small, primitive cells became one. Perhaps more than any event — barring the origin of life itself — this merger radically changed the course of evolution on our planet.
:One cell ended up inside the other and evolved into a structure that schoolkids learn to refer to as the “powerhouse of the cell”: the mitochondrion. This new structure provided a tremendous energetic advantage to its host — a precondition for the later evolution of complex, multicellular life.
"But that’s only part of the story. The mitochondrion is not the only important structure within complex, eukaryotic cells. There’s the membrane-bound nucleus, safekeeper of the genome. There’s a whole system of internal membranes: the endoplasmic reticulum, the Golgi apparatus, lysosomes, peroxisomes and vacuoles — essential for making, transporting and recycling proteins and other cargo in and around the cell.
"Where did all these structures come from? With events lost in the deep past and few traces to serve as evolutionary clues, it’s a very tough question to tackle. Researchers have proposed various hypotheses, but it is only recently, with some new tools and techniques, that cell biologists have been able to investigate the beginnings of this intricate architecture and shed some light on its possible origins.
***
"Scientists proposed that it already was fairly complicated, with a variety of membrane structures inside it. Such a cell would have been capable of engulfing and ingesting things — a complicated and energetically expensive eukaryotic feature called phagocytosis. That might be how the mitochondrion first got into the host.
"But this idea, called the “mitochondria late” hypothesis, doesn’t explain how or why the host cell had become complex to begin with.
***
"In short, Gould, Garg and Martin’s hypothesis explains why endomembrane compartments evolved: to solve problems created by the new guest. But it doesn’t fully explain how the alphaproteobacterium got inside the host to begin with, says cell biologist Gautam Dey at EMBL in Heidelberg, Germany; it assumes the endosymbiont is already inside. “This is a massive problem,” Dey says.
"In short, Gould, Garg and Martin’s hypothesis explains why endomembrane compartments evolved: to solve problems created by the new guest. But it doesn’t fully explain how the alphaproteobacterium got inside the host to begin with, says cell biologist Gautam Dey at EMBL in Heidelberg, Germany; it assumes the endosymbiont is already inside. “This is a massive problem,” Dey says.
***
"Martin’s main objection is that the inside-out model does not provide an evolutionary pressure that would have caused the nucleus or other membrane-bound compartments to arise in the first place. The inside-out model “is upside-down and backwards,” Martin says.
***
"In 2017, cell biologist Heidi McBride of McGill University in Montreal reported that cells lacking peroxisomes could generate them from scratch. Working with mutant human fibroblast cells without peroxisomes, her team found that these cells put proteins that are essential for peroxisome function into mitochondria instead. Then the mitochondrial membrane released them as little bubbles, or vesicles.
***
"...a 2021 report from the lab of biochemist Adam Hughes at the University of Utah found that when yeast cells are fed toxic amounts of amino acids, their mitochondria will shed vesicles that are loaded with transporter molecules. The transporters move amino acids into the vesicles, where they won’t poison the mitochondria.
"Hughes also discovered that the vesicles shed by the mitochondria can form long, tubule-like extensions with multiple layers, reminiscent of the layered stacks of the endoplasmic reticulum and the Golgi body. The structures persist in the cell for a long time. “They’re definitely their own unique structure,” Hughes says.
***
"It may never be possible to know for sure what happened such a very long time ago. But by exploring what can happen in today’s living bacterial, archaeal and eukaryotic cells, scientists can get more clarity on what was possible — and even probable. A cell moves into another cell, bringing benefits but also problems, setting off a complex cascade. And then, McBride says, “all this stuff blooms and blossoms.'”
Comment: all of this complexity is best explained by a designer at work. Please see the beautiful diagram of a cell with all of its many parts identified.
Evolution: how bacteria use essential amino acids
by David Turell , Thursday, November 23, 2023, 17:30 (365 days ago) @ David Turell
Make some, eat some:
https://ecoevocommunity.nature.com/posts/small-genomes-big-appetites-amino-acid-auxotro...
"In the microbial world, there is a divide between those that can produce all amino acids, and those that (like us) rely on their diet to obtain them. In certain environments, resources are so scarce or variable that microbes cannot rely on obtaining amino acids directly from their surroundings – they need to produce all amino acids on their own. Other environments are so rich that some microbes can afford not to produce amino acids (so-called amino acid auxotrophs), because these can be readily obtained from their surroundings. Synthesizing amino acids comes at a metabolic cost so if that cost can be avoided, we would expect microbes to lose the ability to synthesize certain amino acids over time. Why pay for something that you can get for free?
***
"We wanted to know how common auxotrophy is across bacteria, which bacteria are auxotrophic, where auxotrophic bacteria are most likely to be found, and what other bacterial traits are associated with amino acid auxotrophy (see our paper - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-43435-4). Solving these mysteries would provide important insights into the most fundamental aspects of microbial adaptation that make them so successful across Earth’s ecosystems.
"The capacities for producing amino acids and other essential compounds are imprinted in the genome of any organism. If we know the genes involved in the production of amino acids, we can infer the capacity to produce these amino acids based on the presence of these genes in any given genome.
***
"We found that most bacteria (78%) are likely able to produce all the amino acids they need to grow, although amino acid auxotrophy can be observed across members of most bacterial families. Consistent with evolutionary theory, we found that environments where we expect to see a higher availability of amino acids favor bacteria that cannot synthesize amino acids on their own. For example, fermented foods and the human gut are environments rich in amino acids, and these environments typically harbor many auxotrophic bacteria. The reason is simple – if a microbe has ready access to an ‘all-you-can-eat’ buffet that is open 24/7, where food is plentiful and never runs out, there is no advantage for a microbe to produce the amino acids it can easily get from its surroundings.
"Being unable to produce amino acids was not an exclusive feature of those microbes living in fermented food products or our guts. Mycoplasmas that parasitize our cells and cause important diseases are also often auxotrophic as they can obtain amino acids directly from the intracellular environment. We also observed that bacteria which are adapted to predate on other bacteria lacked many genes for amino acid production, including members of the Bdellovibrionaceae. Again, they can obtain these essential compounds from their victims, so they have evolved to avoid the energetic burden of synthesizing amino acids on their own.
"Being unable to produce amino acids was not an exclusive feature of those microbes living in fermented food products or our guts. Mycoplasmas that parasitize our cells and cause important diseases are also often auxotrophic as they can obtain amino acids directly from the intracellular environment. We also observed that bacteria which are adapted to predate on other bacteria lacked many genes for amino acid production, including members of the Bdellovibrionaceae. Again, they can obtain these essential compounds from their victims, so they have evolved to avoid the energetic burden of synthesizing amino acids on their own."
Comment: Bacteria play such an important role in our lives, it is critical to perform studies of this sort. Bacteria were at the start of life and are still here helping. We need to learn everything about them that we can.
Evolution: bacteria pass information through generations
by David Turell , Thursday, November 23, 2023, 18:09 (365 days ago) @ David Turell
A study in E. coli:
https://www.sciencealert.com/in-a-first-bacteria-seen-storing-memories-and-passing-them...
"A single-celled organism with no brain or nervous system to speak of may still form memories and pass those memories on to future generations, according to new research.
"The ubiquitous bacterium, Escherichia coli, is one of the most well-studied life forms on Earth, and yet scientists are still discovering unexpected ways that it survives and spreads.
"Researchers at the University of Texas and the University of Delaware have now uncovered a potential memory system that allows E. coli to 'remember' past experiences for several hours and generations thereafter.
"The team says that, to their knowledge, this kind of bacterial memory has not been unearthed before.
"Obviously, the memory that scientists are discussing in this case is not the same as conscious human memory.
***
"Bhattacharyya and their team's findings are based on strong associations from more than 10,000 bacterial 'swarming' assays.
"These experiments were testing to see if E. coli cells on a single plate would swarm together into one migrating mass that moves with the same motor. Such behavior generally indicates that cells are joining up to efficiently search for a suitable environment.
"On the other hand, when E. coli cells clump together into a sticky biofilm, it's their way of colonizing a nutritious surface.
"In initial experiments, researchers exposed E. coli cells to several different environmental factors to see which conditions triggered swarming the fastest.
"Ultimately, the team found that intracellular iron was the strongest predictor of whether the bacteria moved or stayed.
"Low levels of iron were associated with faster and more efficient swarming, whereas higher levels led to a more settled lifestyle.
"Among first-generation E. coli cells, this seemed to be an intuitive response. But after experiencing just one swarming event, cells that experienced low iron levels later in life were even faster and more efficient at swarming than before. (my bold)
"What's more, this 'iron' memory was passed on to at least four successive generations of daughter cells, which are formed from the mother cell splitting into two new cells.
"By the seventh generation of daughter cells, that iron memory was naturally lost – although it could be regained if scientists artificially reinforced it.
"The authors behind the study have yet to identify a molecular mechanism behind the potential memory system or its inheritability, but the strong association between intracellular iron and intergenerational swarming behavior suggests there is a level of persistent conditioning at play.
"While epigenetics is known to play a role in passing 'remembered' biological settings through generations of E. coli by regulating 'on' and 'off' settings of specific genes, the researchers believe the short duration of heritability means this is not the primary mechanism here.
"Iron is connected to multiple stress responses in bacteria. For an intergenerational memory system to form around it makes a lot of evolutionary sense.
"An iron-based memory system might help E. coli adapt to poor environmental conditions or antibiotics.
"A single E. coli cell can double within half an hour, so the ability to pass on such a memory to daughter cells is probably also beneficial in slow-changing environments.
"'Before there was oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere, early cellular life was utilizing iron for a lot of cellular processes," says Bhattacharyya."
"Iron is not only critical in the origin of life on Earth, but also in the evolution of life. It makes sense that cells would utilize it in this way."
"Ultimately," Bhattacharyya concludes, "the more we know about bacterial behavior, the easier it is to combat them."
Comment: I wonder how this study fits into Shapiro's work on bacterial editing of DNA. The authors reject epigenetics, but simply expressing genes for brief periods might be the mechanism at work.
Evolution: is it predictable?
by David Turell , Tuesday, January 30, 2024, 18:44 (297 days ago) @ David Turell
In the short term:
https://phys.org/news/2024-01-evolution-bacterial.html
"...if we could "rewind" the tape of life and let it run again. Would the major phylogenetic groups re-emerge, or would something entirely different happen?
***
"The research sheds light on this classic question by analyzing the evolutionary behavior of experimental populations of bacteria and leveraging the analytical capabilities provided by large-scale, cutting-edge genetic tools. The results reveal that the evolution of bacteria can be predictable in the short term, opening doors to efforts to anticipate the evolution of pathogens and pests, as well as potential biotechnological applications for their control.
***
"To deploy this ambitious study, researchers employed recent massive genetic engineering technology that allows the introduction of hundreds of thousands of mutations into bacteria, studying the individual effect of each one individually. "This technology allows exploring the effect, whether good or bad, of all possible mutations along the >4,000 genes of the bacterial genome," adds Couce.
"In their work, researchers applied these techniques to the ancestor and different evolutionary stages of the famous Long-Term Evolution Experiment, which has been evolving 12 populations of the same bacteria under constant laboratory conditions for more than 35 years. In total, these populations founded from the same ancestor have experienced >70,000 generations, approximately five times more than Homo sapiens have lived on Earth.
"The first significant surprise of this new study is that the overall proportion of lethal, harmful, and neutral mutations remains virtually constant throughout the evolution of these 12 lineages, despite the specific identity of the mutations showing great volatility. (my bold)
"For researchers, a case of particular relevance is lethal mutations: Mutations that, as the name implies, lead to the death of the organism, revealing which genes and systems are essential for life. The results show that many lethal genes in the ancestor cease to be lethal in evolved strains, but a similar fraction of non-lethal mutations in the ancestor becomes lethal later. The result, as Couce explains, is that "the fraction of lethal mutations has enigmatically remained constant during evolution." (my bold)
***
"'We started with an almost philosophical approach: if we could know all possible beneficial mutations for an organism at a given time, could we predict adaptation?" says the UPM researcher. "It can be seen as a biological version of Laplace's Demon, the thought experiment in which the famous French physicist wondered if for a superhuman intelligence capable of knowing the position and movement of every atom in the universe, it would not be trivial to reconstruct the past and predict the future."
"'Our results show that major initial adaptations are predictable, and as evolution progresses, this ability is lost," he explains. "In other words, the demon exists but is terribly shortsighted.'"
Comment. Since major evolutionary advances have stopped, their conclusions fit that current statis. The need for immediate adaptation is usually obvious within species. So, if we are not seeing new speciation, how can we learn how to predict? My bolds about lethal mutations fits into our discussion about 99.9% of all ancestors are lost to produce 0.1% surviving.
Evolution: new stromatolites in Saudi Arabia
by David Turell , Saturday, June 01, 2024, 18:03 (174 days ago) @ David Turell
A whole new area of them:
https://phys.org/news/2024-05-vestiges-life-earth-saudi-arabia.html
"Stromatolites are the earliest geological record of life on Earth. These curious biotic structures are made of algae carpets growing toward the light and precipitating carbonates. After their first appearance 3.48 Ga ago, stromatolites dominated the planet as the sole living carbonate factory for almost three billion years.
"Stromatolites are also partially responsible for the Great Oxygenation Event, which drastically changed the composition of our atmosphere by introducing oxygen. That oxygen initially wiped out stromatolites' competition, enabling their prominence in the Archean and early Proterozoic environment. However, as more life forms adapted their metabolism to an oxygenated atmosphere, stromatolites started to decline, popping up in the geologic record only after mass extinctions or in difficult environments.
***
"In modern times, stromatolites are relegated to niche extreme environments, such as hypersaline marine settings (e.g., Shark Bay, Australia) and alkaline lakes. Until recently, the only known modern analogue to the biologically diverse, open shallow marine settings where most Proterozoic stromatolites developed was the Exuma Islands in the Bahamas.
"That is, until Vahrenkamp discovered living stromatolites on Sheybarah Island, on the northeastern shelf of the Red Sea in Saudi Arabia. Vahrenkamp was studying tepee structures—salt crust domes that can be seen from space—when he happened upon the unassuming stromatolite field. The discovery was surprising, but luckily, Vahrenkamp is one of the few people to have previously seen stromatolites in the Bahamas.
***
"Sheybarah Island is an intertidal-to-shallow subtidal setting, with regularly alternating wetting and drying conditions, extreme temperature swings between 8 °C and >48 °C, and oligotrophic conditions—much like the Bahamas. Since similar environmental conditions are widespread across the Al Wajh carbonate platform, there might be other stromatolite fields nearby. Vahrenkamp and his team have started this exploration work, but stromatolites are small, about 15 cm across, and thus are difficult to spot until one gets very close.
"There are several hundred stromatolites in the Sheybarah Island field. Some are well-developed, perfect textbook examples. Others are more sheet-like, with a low relief. "Perhaps they could be juvenile," hypothesizes Vahrenkamp, "but we don't know what a baby stromatolite looks like. They must start small, but we don't know."
"Part of the issue is that we don't know how fast stromatolites grow. Dating them is very hard, because they contain two different carbonate components that are virtually impossible to separate: the newly microbe-precipitated one, which is of interest, and carbonate sand present in the environment, which is misleading. Currently, Vahrenkamp's team monitors the field monthly to record any visual changes. Soon, there might be an attempt to transfer some Sheybarah Island stromatolites to an aquarium and grow them there—an exciting experimental prospect.
"Vahrenkamp's discovery affords us the opportunity to better understand the formation and growth of stromatolites. This will provide insights into early life and ocean evolution on Earth and may even assist us in the search for life on other planets such as Mars."
Comment: I had thought stromatolites were all fossils. That there living ones as a remnant of the distant past shows how tough they are.
Evolution: Lamarck is back
by David Turell , Tuesday, June 04, 2024, 22:14 (171 days ago) @ David Turell
Giraffe necks due to high grazing:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/06/240603114245.htm
"Why do giraffes have such long necks? A study led by Penn State biologists explores how this trait might have evolved and lends new insight into this iconic question. The reigning hypothesis is that competition among males influenced neck length, but the research team found that female giraffes have proportionally longer necks than males -- suggesting that high nutritional needs of females may have driven the evolution of this trait.
"The study, which explored body proportions of both wild and captive giraffes, is described in a paper that appeared in the journal Mammalian Biology. The findings, the team said, indicate that neck length may be the result of females foraging deeply into trees for otherwise difficult-to-reach leaves.
***
"'The necks-for-sex hypothesis predicted that males would have longer necks than females," said Doug Cavener, Dorothy Foehr Huck and J. Lloyd Huck Distinguished Chair in Evolutionary Genetics and professor of biology at Penn State and lead author of the study. "And technically they do have longer necks, but everything about males is longer; they are 30% to 40% bigger than females. In this study, we analyzed photos of hundreds of wild and captive Masai giraffes to investigate the relative body proportions of each species and how they might change as giraffes grow and mature."
'The researchers gathered thousands of photos of captive Masai giraffes from the publicly accessible photo repositories Flickr and SmugMug as well as photos of wild adult animals that they have taken over the past decade. Because absolute measurements like overall height are difficult to determine from a photograph without a point of reference of known length, the researchers instead focused on measurements relative to one another, or body proportions -- for example the length of the neck relative to the entire height of the animal. They restricted their analysis to images that met strict criteria, such as only using images of giraffes perpendicular to the camera, so they could consistently take a variety of measurements.
***
"At birth, male and female giraffes have the same body proportions. The researchers found that, although males generally grow faster in the first year, body proportions are not significantly different until they start to research sexual maturity around three years of age. Because body proportions change early in life, the team limited their study of wild animals -- whose ages are largely unknown -- to fully grown adults.
"In adult giraffes, the researchers found that females have proportionally longer necks and trunks -- or the main section of their body, which does not include legs or the neck and head. Adult males, on the other hand, have longer forelegs and wider necks. This pattern was the same in both captive and wild giraffes.
"'Rather than stretching out to eat leaves on the tallest branches, you often see giraffes -- especially females -- reaching deep into the trees," Cavener said. "Giraffes are picky eaters -- they eat the leaves of only a few tree species, and longer necks allow them to reach deeper into the trees to get the leaves no one else can. Once females reach four or five years of age, they are almost always pregnant and lactating, so we think the increased nutritional demands of females drove the evolution of giraffes' long necks."
"The researchers noted that sexual selection -- either competition among males or preference among females for larger mates -- was likely responsible for the overall size difference between males in females, as is the case in many other large, hoofed mammals that are polygynous -- where one male mates with many females. They suggest that, following the evolution of the long neck, sexual selection -- including male body pushing and neck sparring behaviors -- may have contributed to males' wider necks. Additionally, the longer forelegs of males may assist in mating, which the researchers said is a brief and challenging affair that is rarely observed."
Comment: straining to support a just-so story. OR God designed the females to get the best leaves.
Evolution: Darwin's abominable mystery again
by David Turell , Friday, June 14, 2024, 16:53 (161 days ago) @ David Turell
Angiosperm sudden appearance is even more sudden:
https://evolutionnews.org/2024/06/fossil-friday-darwins-abominable-mystery-corroborated...
"...I reported about the “abominable mystery” of the sudden appearance of flowering plants in the Early Cretaceous period, which bothered Charles Darwin himself as a big problem for his theory. Last year, I discussed (Bechly 2023) a new study, which confirmed this discontinuity in the history of plants as “surely the greatest conundrum in the whole of paleontology” according to the lead author of this study, distinguished paleontologist Philip Donoghue.
"Now, another new seminal study by Zuntini et al. (2024), published on April 24 by 278 (!) co-authors in the prestigious journal Nature, provided further strong corroboration of the “abominable mystery”. Like several previous studies the scientists attempt to illuminate the origin of flowering plants with a combination of phylogenetic inferences and molecular clock data.
***
"Therefore they built “the tree of life for almost 8,000 (about 60%) angiosperm genera using a standardized set of 353 nuclear genes”, which represents a “15-fold increase in genus-level sampling relative to comparable nuclear studies”. They scaled this tree to time using 200 fossils as calibration points for the dating of the branching events. Their results showed “that early angiosperm evolution was characterized by high gene tree conflict and explosive diversification, giving rise to more than 80% of extant angiosperm orders.”
***
"Our dated tree corroborates the existence of a distinct early burst of diversification, associated with high levels of gene tree conflict, further increasing our confidence in this finding.
"More than 80% of extant angiosperm orders originated during the early burst of diversification.
***
"In the young tree, the early burst occurs during the Cretaceous, consistent with the hypothesis that a Cretaceous terrestrial revolution was triggered by the establishment of main angiosperm lineages. More controversially, the old tree places the early burst in the Triassic Period, which is dramatically at variance with the palaeobotanical record, highlighting that current molecular dating methods are unable to resolve the age of angiosperms.”
"Since this notorious discontinuity in the fossil record did not get any smaller with 160 years of paleobotanical research since Darwin, but instead became more and more acute and empirically corroborated, we can be very sure that the gap is not a gap of knowledge but a real gap in nature. This contradicts Darwin’s explicit dictum that nature does not make jumps. Nature clearly did make jumps in the history of life (Bechly 2024) and this cannot be explained with an unguided gradual accumulation of small changes over long periods of time, but requires a rapid burst of biological novelty that is best explained by intelligent design.
Comment: another major gap in the fossil record, just like the Cambrian explosion.
Evolution: the role of viral DNA
by David Turell , Friday, July 19, 2024, 20:06 (126 days ago) @ David Turell
It pops up everywhere:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/07/240716122726.htm
"Researchers have discovered that a single-celled organism, a close relative of animals, harbors the remnants of ancient giant viruses woven into its own genetic code. This finding sheds light on how complex organisms may have acquired some of their genes and highlights the dynamic interplay between viruses and their hosts.
***
"The study focused on a microbe called Amoebidium, a unicellular parasite found in freshwater environments.
"By analysing Amoebidium's genome, the researchers led by Dr Alex de Mendoza Soler, Senior Lecturer at Queen Mary's School of Biological and Behavioural Sciences, found a surprising abundance of genetic material originating from giant viruses -- some of the largest viruses known to science.
"These viral sequences were heavily methylated, a chemical tag that often silences genes.
"'It's like finding Trojan horses hiding inside the Amoebidium's DNA," explains Dr de Mendoza Soler.
"'These viral insertions are potentially harmful, but Amoebidium seems to be keeping them in check by chemically silencing them."
"The researchers then investigated how widespread this phenomenon might be. They compared the genomes of several Amoebidium isolates and found significant variation in the viral content.
"This suggests that the process of viral integration and silencing is ongoing and dynamic.
"'These findings challenge our understanding of the relationship between viruses and their hosts," says Dr. de Mendoza Soler.
"'Traditionally, viruses are seen as invaders, but this study suggests a more complex story. Viral insertions may have played a role in the evolution of complex organisms by providing them with new genes. And this is allowed by the chemical taming of these intruders DNA."
"Furthermore, the findings in Amoebidium offer intriguing parallels to how our own genomes interact with viruses. Similar to Amoebidium, humans and other mammals have remnants of ancient viruses, called Endogenous Retroviruses, integrated into their DNA. While these remnants were previously thought to be inactive "junk DNA," some might now be beneficial. However, unlike the giant viruses found in Amoebidium, Endogenous Retroviruses are much smaller, and the human genome is significantly larger."
Comment: this subject has entered here before as a mechanism for evolution to occur. Viruses, which can be dangerous, have useful roles in evolution. If God is viewed as a designer, He introduced viruses as helpful design components for DNA evolution. dhw will complain about the trouble some of them cause. The answer is God's good works far outweigh the bad side effects.
Evolution: the origin of a nervous system
by David Turell , Tuesday, August 13, 2024, 21:18 (101 days ago) @ David Turell
From early ion channels:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240813131928.htm
"A new study has rewritten the conventionally understood evolutionary history of certain ion channels -- proteins critical for electrical signaling in the nervous system. The study shows that the Shaker family of ion channels were present in microscopic single cell organisms well before the common ancestor of all animals and thus before the origin of the nervous system.
"A new study has rewritten the conventionally understood evolutionary history of certain proteins critical for electrical signaling in the nervous system. The study, led by Penn State researchers, shows that the well-studied family of proteins -- potassium ion channels in the Shaker family -- were present in microscopic single cell organisms well before the common ancestor of all animals. This suggests that, rather than evolving alongside the nervous system as previously thought, these ion channels were present before the origin of the nervous system.
***
"We have previously shown that the oldest living animals, those with simple nerve nets, have the highest ion channel diversity. This new finding adds to growing evidence that many of the building blocks for the nervous system were already in place in our protozoan ancestors -- before the nervous system even existed."
"Ion channels are located in the membranes of cells and regulate how charged particles called ions move in and out of the cell, a process that results in the electrical signals that are the foundation of communication in the nervous system. The Shaker family of ion channels is found in a large range of animals, from humans to mice and fruit flies, and specifically regulates how potassium ions flow out of the cell to terminate electrical signals called action potentials. These channels can open or close based on changes in the electric field, much like transistors in computer chips.
***
. "We previously thought that the Shaker family of voltage-gated potassium channels were only found in animals, but now we see that the genes that code for this family of ion channels were present in several species of the closest living relatives of animals, a group of single cell organisms called choanoflagellates."
***
"...this finding indicates that multiple subtypes were present at the base of the animal family tree, including Kv1, which are found in comb jellies, and the Kv2-4-like channels, which are found in choanoflagellates.
***
"This work also adds to growing evidence that many elements of the nervous system were present before the nervous system as a whole evolved, Jegla noted.
"'Most of the functionally important proteins that we use in electrical signaling, which underlie neuronal communication and neuromuscular movement, are all based on proteins that existed before animals," Jegla said. "It seems that animals were able to cobble together a functioning nervous system very early in their evolution simply because most of the necessary proteins were already there.'"
Comment: nerves are an advanced form of ion channel. This story of evolution of nerves is quite reasonable.
Evolution: how viruses might fit in
by David Turell , Sunday, April 25, 2021, 17:17 (1307 days ago) @ David Turell
Lots of unproven theory:
https://nautil.us/issue/99/universality/the-vast-viral-world-what-we-know-and-dont-know...
"Simple in structure but advanced in function, viruses exist in a category that lies between the inert and the living. Some biologists think of them as quasi-alive, while others refer to them as inanimate tiny particles or arrangements of matter. But experts agree they are like vines wrapping around the tree of life; their existence involves symbiosis, an intimate association between two forms of life. Viruses can reproduce only inside living cells. Even at our healthiest, our bodies are home to trillions of viruses, maybe more. There, they are most “alive,” as their genetic material penetrates into their host’s cells and turns them into virus-making factories.
“'Think of a virus and a cell together as a microscopic copy machine,” explains Sarah Olson, a disease ecologist with the Wildlife Conservation Society’s Health Program. “The virus uses existing entry points to get into the cell—and when it enters, it’s carrying instructions to take over the cell’s machinery and make copies of itself. Then off it goes to the next.”
"A virus replicates through a series of steps, first attaching to a host cell and injecting its genetic material, then incorporating itself into the cell’s genetic material as the cell churns out more viruses. Once the viral information becomes integrated into a host’s genome, that information becomes part of the host and can be passed across generations. Indeed, approximately 8 percent of the human genome comes from viral genes, which means we’ve evolved along with viruses and will continue doing so. In fact, without viruses, humans and other mammals might still be laying eggs. At some point during evolution, the protein syncytin, which is essential for the formation of the placenta, came from a retrovirus infection. We also know that viruses can keep bacteria from invading our gut and causing infections.
***
“'You’d like to have a single explanation for the origins of all current viruses,” says Julia Durzyńska, a biologist at Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań, Poland, who has written about viral evolution. “Instead, there are three dominant models that seem to complete each other.”
"The so-called “virus-first” model suggests that at the dawn of life, very simple forms of viruses existed before cells. The ancient ancestors of modern viruses may have provided raw material for the development of cellular life. If this model were true for all viruses in the world today, it would mean that they all evolved from a few viral ancestors. In some ways, that would make identifying new viruses and developing vaccines or treatments easier—scientists could take what they know about one virus and use it as a starting point to understand its relatives.
"The second so-called “escape” or progressive model of viral origins suggests that viruses arise from genetic elements that escape from the genes of larger organisms. Bacteriophages (viruses that infect bacteria), for example, would come from bits of bacterial genetic material. So according to this model, not all viruses come from deep time—that is, early in the immense arc of the earth’s history, before any multicellular life existed.
"The third model, known as the “reduction” model, is based on a hypothesis that viruses were once larger, free-living organisms. Over time, it is believed that they lost their genetic information and ended up smaller and unable to reproduce alone. But they managed to sustain their existence by replicating in the cells of other organisms. The discovery most commonly interpreted as evidence for this model is that of the mimivirus—the first “giant virus,” which was initially isolated in 2003."
Comment: Viruses had to come after independent life appeared. so I don't accept possibility first. That viruses contributed to evolution has been discussed in the past. Since I think God designed life, I must accept God also designed viruses and used them in advancing evolution.