Example: the utter foolishness of reductionism (Introduction)
by David Turell , Friday, October 17, 2014, 02:35 (3690 days ago)
This professor knows all the mechanical and neurological mechanisms of how the brain works at the base level and interprets the eye's stimuli, and doesn't appreciate how seamlessly that provides up with our conscious experience. Thank god I am not his student. I don't suffer fools easily.-http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/opinion/sunday/are-we-really-conscious.html?ref=opinion&_r=2&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=Opinion&action=keypress®ion=FixedLeft&pgtype=article-"In this theory, awareness is not an illusion. It's a caricature. Something — attention — really does exist, and awareness is a distorted accounting of it."-Whew!!!
Example: the utter foolishness of reductionism
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Friday, October 17, 2014, 03:39 (3690 days ago) @ David Turell
It is interesting that you brought this up. I am doing a research paper on the cultural and technological divides in aboriginal cultures, and I stumbled across this today. -http://www.ccl-cca.ca/pdfs/LessonsInLearning/Feb-01-07-The-cultural-divide-in-science.pdf-“The First Nations people view themselves not as custodians, stewards or having dominion over the Earth, but as an integrated part in the family of the Earth. The Earth is my mother and the animals, plants and minerals are my brothers and sisters.” —F. Henry Lickers Biologist, member of the Turtle Clan of the Seneca Nation-A cultural mismatch, between the values and philosophy of Western science (particularly as these are typically exemplified in the classroom) and the values and philosophy held by many Aboriginal people and communities, makes the issue of increasing Aboriginal participation in science and technology a particularly thorny one. These cultural differences are nicely illustrated by the quotes given at the beginning of this artilce. The Aboriginal world view (captured by the Lickers quote) sees people, landscape and living resources as a spiritual whole. In contrast, the Western science approach seeks greater understanding through breaking apart the whole and analyzing it into its smallest parts.6- For example, these world view differences were explored among Kickapoo Indian children studying in off-reserve schools.9 The work revealed a number of ways in which Kickapoo and Western world views conflict, interfering with Kickapoo children's ability and motivation to learn in Western science classrooms. Kickapoo students prefer cooperative learning rather than the competitive learning environment fostered in Western classrooms. They tend to think holistically about the natural world, whereas the Western science approach is reductionist in that it tends to explain things by reducing complex systems down to the simpler parts. Kickapoo students view time and space as cyclical in nature while these concepts are treated more linearly in Western science. Kinship, harmony, cooperation and spiritualism with respect to the natural world are highly valued by Kickapoo students, while the corresponding Western values are more exploitative, competitive, decontextualized, rational and materialistic. The researchers also found that, in Western science classrooms, Kickapoo students were unengaged and showed little evidence of learning; however, the very same students faced with the very same lessons in a different context (i.e., in their own village) were active, engaged and showed evidence of learning by enthusiastically answering questions.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Example: the utter foolishness of reductionism
by David Turell , Friday, October 17, 2014, 06:13 (3690 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
Tony: Thank you for a very intersting article and its perspective on Aboriginal people and their philosophy. Certainly not reducionist.
Example: the utter foolishness of reductionism
by dhw, Saturday, October 18, 2014, 17:04 (3689 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
edited by dhw, Saturday, October 18, 2014, 17:16
TONY: It is interesting that you brought this up. I am doing a research paper on the cultural and technological divides in aboriginal cultures, and I stumbled across this today. http://www.ccl-cca.ca/pdfs/LessonsInLearning/Feb-01-07-The-cultural-divide-in-science.pdf “The First Nations people view themselves not as custodians, stewards or having dominion over the Earth, but as an integrated part in the family of the Earth. The Earth is my mother and the animals, plants and minerals are my brothers and sisters.” —F. Henry Lickers Biologist, member of the Turtle Clan of the Seneca Nation -Many thanks for this fascinating article. What a great subject for research. One sometimes wonders whether we in the West can't see the wood for the trees. The Lickers quote alone is rich enough to fill a dozen books.
Example: the utter foolishness of reductionism
by dhw, Sunday, October 19, 2014, 22:34 (3688 days ago) @ dhw
My daughter sent me this link to an article about Dr Eben Alexander, to whose experiences David drew our attention some time ago. I thought it was well worth another look, since it seems to tie in rather neatly with the article Tony posted on this thread.-http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2797764/what-heaven-s-really-like-leading-brain-surgeon-says-s-read-testimony-scoff-just-shake-beliefs.html-*********************-I will try to catch up with the various posts on evolution and blood tomorrow.
Example: the utter foolishness of reductionism
by David Turell , Monday, October 20, 2014, 00:57 (3687 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: My daughter sent me this link to an article about Dr Eben Alexander, to whose experiences David drew our attention some time ago. I thought it was well worth another look, since it seems to tie in rather neatly with the article Tony posted on this thread. > > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2797764/what-heaven-s-really-like-leadin... been to the website, and I've read the book. He describes his experiences exactly as I knew them from my reading. I've included his experience in my book as one of many. His consciousness survived while his brain was functionless. As an academic brain surgeon he is not a charlatan. His case is veridical, that is confirmed by discovering his sister. Sam Parnia's new findings which I reported recently, also had a documented veridical case. I'm glad Jenny sent this to you.
Example: the utter foolishness of reductionism
by David Turell , Friday, August 21, 2020, 23:31 (1554 days ago) @ David Turell
Brian Greene produces an other example in his new book. Ed Feser comments:
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2020/08/the-particle-collection-that-fancied.html#more
"In Brian Greene’s case we have someone who seems a pleasant enough fellow. But his new book Until the End of Time nevertheless exhibits the usual foibles of the genre. I’ll focus here on what he says about the place of the human mind in the physical universe (the topic of chapter 5). The basic metaphysical assumption is a crude reductionism: All that really exists, we are assured, are basic particles governed by mathematical laws. Hence consciousness, free will, etc. must somehow either be reduced without remainder to these, or eliminated from our picture of reality. The problem Greene wants to solve in the chapter is to explain how this program can most plausibly be carried out.
"There are three main difficulties with Greene’s solution to the problem. First, the solution is a non-starter, because second, he doesn’t understand the problem in the first place. But third, it doesn’t matter, because the reductionistic assumption that creates the problem isn’t true anyway.
"Let’s start with that last point. Greene insists that the “evidence” supports his basic reductionist assumption. In fact, the “evidence” does no such thing, and the assumption is false.
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"...the methods of physics don’t capture the intrinsic nature of phenomena, but only those relations between phenomena susceptible of mathematically precise description. Hence physics simply doesn’t tell us everything there is to know even about the material world (let alone anything beyond the material world).
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"Greene claims that the “evidence” provided by the successful predictions made using the laws of physics supports his reductionist position, but it does nothing of the kind. After all, as Greene himself happily acknowledges, there are no laws that allow us rigorously to predict the behavior of systems conceived of as dogs, cats, basketballs, dollar bills, human beings, etc. We have to abstract out all that is distinctive of these things qua biological, cultural, economic, etc. phenomena and describe them instead in the simplifying terms of physics, and then we will get rigorous predictions (though only of those aspects of their behavior that are reflected in the simplifying description).
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"Let’s move on to the second difficulty, which is that Greene does not understand the problem he is trying to solve. To be fair, he does at least see that there is a problem facing anyone who wants to insist on the kind of reductionism he favors while also affirming the reality of conscious experience.
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"All the same, he fails to see the depth of the problem, and in particular fails to see that the methods of physics are precisely what generate the problem in the first place, so that it is clueless to think (as Greene does) that the problem can be resolved by further application of those methods.
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"Like so many other superficial materialists, Greene thinks the problem merely has to do with its being intuitively difficult to see how conscious experiences could be material. No, the problem is much deeper than that – it is that modern physics essentially defines the physical world in a way that entails that consciousness is non-physical. The problem has less to do with consciousness than with matter as physics conceives of it.
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"Nagel and other contemporary philosophers of mind like David Chalmers have argued that consciousness cannot be explained in physical terms unless physics revises its conception of matter. Greene considers Chalmers’ version of this idea, but replies that there is no “convincing evidence” for such a thesis (p. 135). But the reason he doesn’t see the evidence is, as Orwell would say, because it’s right in front of his nose. It is there in physics’ own conception of matter, which excludes consciousness from the material world precisely by allowing into that world only what can be described in the language of mathematics.
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"There is a crucial but widely overlooked lesson here. When your basic assumptions are unsound, greater intelligence by no means guarantees that you will come to see this. On the contrary, sometimes you will end up only more hardened in error than a less intelligent person would be, because you will be able to come up with subtler fallacies and cleverer self-deceptions."
Comment: Ed Feser is a strict Aristotelian Catholic philosopher. I'm with him on opinions.
Example: the utter foolishness of reductionism
by David Turell , Friday, October 17, 2014, 15:51 (3690 days ago) @ David Turell
Another version of the reductionist approach. Because we use a biological system to record vision, we don't reproduce a scene in the same way as a digital camera. The brain has to make adjustments, shown in this study to take a little time. Very little of the retina has sharp vision (the fovea). But if one takes a digital picture of the scene, the scene we saw and the scene in the picture, which the fovea can see clearly, is the same. Reductionist scientists pick our biologic methods apart, instead of seeing the magic wonderment of the biological solutions:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-10-brain-sharp-vision.html