Simplistic atheist view of evolution (Introduction)
by David Turell , Tuesday, May 20, 2014, 14:11 (3840 days ago)
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/20/science/creation-in-the-eye-of-the-beholder.html?emc=... praise of chance and luck.
Simplistic atheist view of evolution
by GateKeeper , Thursday, May 29, 2014, 12:54 (3831 days ago) @ David Turell
David, I think I saw you say "...I call it god. ...". Are you a "believer"?-He's right. Virus look like they "have" a purpose. I like the word "inventor". If there was nothing around a virus it would look it has "no life". It is screaming at me ... "it is different than you perceive" ... perceive differently. "perceive" from every humanly possible angle.-I am a believer. But it doesn't have to be an "inventor". I do not know enough to state for certain any of its traits. We may just very well be in its image though. It doesn't "know" either. It may just know a lot more than me. But that does not lesson it for me. It brings me "closer". "closer" is not reaaly true. It really means "lessons my ego" and "flesh" drips away. -The image I see. The periodic table. Everything we see around us is in its image. I and the periodic table are one. lol, stole another phrase there. I will steal again.-Why can't God be a confluence of events just like everything else he has "shown us"? I have heard no good answer to this. "because it wouldn't deserve my praise is that were the case.", just flat out floors me. "thanks" or "gratitude" is a human emotion, nothing wrong in expressing it if it makes sense to you. -But, there is nothing because I don't see it", is just as floor flatting to me. I ask 'can you describe to me what you see?". It ends in " you don't know it all". And I stand in, to steal a phrase, slack jawed disbelief. I tried to say 'I keep asking why/how, not to pigeon toe you, I need to know why you are saying what you do."
Simplistic atheist view of evolution
by David Turell , Thursday, May 29, 2014, 16:11 (3831 days ago) @ GateKeeper
GK: David, I think I saw you say "...I call it god. ...". Are you a "believer"?-I was agnostic until I began to study cosmology and particle physics books at a layman's level. I do not accept human descriptions of God from the Bible, because God is unknowable and the Bible anthropomorphizes Him. > > GK: I am a believer. But it doesn't have to be an "inventor". I do not know enough to state for certain any of its traits. We may just very well be in its image though. It doesn't "know" either. It may just know a lot more than me. But that does not lesson it for me. -You and I believe in the same way. > > GK: The image I see. The periodic table. Everything we see around us is in its image. I and the periodic table are one.-Yes, it is the organization of reality, its complexity, that convinces. By chance? No way.
Simplistic atheist view of evolution
by GateKeeper , Friday, May 30, 2014, 12:24 (3830 days ago) @ David Turell
same here, with just minor differences in how we say it.-The bible was written thousands of years ago. They did a nice job for what they saw around them. I say it was nice because they used what they knew to describe what they don't know. That's real science to me.-"god" for me is not "not knowable", that's not a double negative there. We can use what we know to describe "it" the best way we can. We can narrow some of the possible traits' of "it". This should be done as a group because I, as an individual, could distort the perception, skew the data, so to speak. The scientific method applies. I am ok with anthropomorphizes things. It is ok as long as we are being careful. I think of it as a tool in a tool box. It is one of the major "tools" we use on a regular basis to "build" an understanding. But it is not use as much in "finishing trim" ... we don't use a hammer to sand drywall smooth. -for me, the bible: An ape "awoke" and asked "What am I?" The universe answered with the "bible". "You are human." It delivered this answer as fast as this ape would accept it.-Where I differ from 'bible thumpers", is that I see no reason to change the traits of god as we learn more about the universe. Almost the exact same thing as my child changing his view(traits) of me as they grow. Then finally, when he is man enough, he understands that, in the end, we are both as human as we can be.-My sect of agnosticism: Use what you know to describe something you don't know. With total focus on two notions. One, That we can have more than one reasonable conclusion(s). Two, we can change our conclusion based on new data. In other words, it is a beautiful thing when we find out we were dead wrong. That is a religious experience!-So they have "a body rises". I have "it is great to be wrong because I learnt something new". I see why they think I am crazy. :). They think "I like being wrong". Silly ape.
Simplistic atheist view of evolution
by David Turell , Friday, May 30, 2014, 15:34 (3830 days ago) @ GateKeeper
> GK: My sect of agnosticism: Use what you know to describe something you don't know. With total focus on two notions. One, That we can have more than one reasonable conclusion(s). Two, we can change our conclusion based on new data. In other words, it is a beautiful thing when we find out we were dead wrong. That is a religious experience!-The difference in my thinking is I have concluded there is a greater power, but I try to analyze that thought from the scientific evidence we have, and never the Bible.
Simplistic atheist view of evolution
by GateKeeper , Friday, May 30, 2014, 16:06 (3830 days ago) @ David Turell
you rule out a source ... you rule out a possible path to a solution. The bible is here, unless we go old school, it will be here for a while. You might as well lead them with what they know. because in term of 'emotion", the bible is just fine.-You posted a quote from plank. that quote is as good as the bible to me. I am no more impressed than I am with what Jesus said. Tell me how the "fact" of what they said are different? Why is "Jesus" never to be used? "never" as a command ... that is how I took your statement.
Simplistic atheist view of evolution
by David Turell , Friday, May 30, 2014, 17:17 (3830 days ago) @ GateKeeper
GT: Tell me how the "fact" of what they said are different? Why is "Jesus" never to be used? "never" as a command ... that is how I took your statement.-Why use him? When the books were written little science was known and miracles believed. The moral side of the bible is fine. The OT as some true history as shown by the archeological work in Israel. The NT is all heresay written 60+ years after the period in time of the information given.-And yet I am sure there is a greater power.
Simplistic atheist view of evolution
by GateKeeper , Friday, May 30, 2014, 17:41 (3830 days ago) @ David Turell
why use him?- for "logistical" reasons. we are "human".