Fine tuning specifics (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Friday, April 04, 2014, 16:10 (3886 days ago)

The need for a more philosophic approach to cosmology:-http://phys.org/news/2014-04-science-philosophy-collide-fine-tuned-universe.html-"In a 2004 review in Science of Searle's Mind a Brief Introduction, neuroscientist Christof Koch wrote:
 
"Whether we scientists are inspired, bored, or infuriated by philosophy, all our theorising and experimentation depends on particular philosophical background assumptions. This hidden influence is an acute embarrassment to many researchers, and it is therefore not often acknowledged. Such fundamental notions as reality, space, time and causality ... notions found at the core of the scientific enterprise ... all rely on particular metaphysical assumptions about the world.
 
"This may seem self-evident, and was regarded as important by Einstein, Bohr and the founders of quantum theory a century ago, but it runs against the grain of the views of working scientists in the post-war period.
 
"Indeed, 21st-century mathematicians and scientists seem to have little need of philosophy.
 
"The glory days of Karl Popper, who argued that falsifiability was a hallmark of good science, and Thomas Kuhn, who noted the phenomenon of paradigm shifts, are long gone—in science, if not in the humanities."-And:-"In short, numerous features of our universe seem fantastically fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent life. While some physicists still hold out for a "natural" explanation, many others are now coming to grips with the notion that our universe is profoundly unnatural, with no good explanation other than the Anthropic Principle—the universe is in this exceedingly improbable state, because if it weren't, we wouldn't be here to discuss the fact."-- Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-04-science-philosophy-collide-fine-tuned-universe.html#jCp

Fine tuning specifics

by David Turell @, Sunday, April 06, 2014, 02:09 (3885 days ago) @ David Turell

We have no idea why our universe has the finely tuned paraters it has or why they have to be the way they are. All we have done is measure and fit them together. There is no underlying theory. Even if there are multiverses thaat explains nothing. And the Anthropic Priciple is a bogus mess of circular reasoning. It is an example of why scientists need philosophers of science to explain it rationally.:-https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/1a2a340bf94a-"Why does our Universe have particles and interactions with the properties that we observe them to have, instead of any other possibilities?-"These are legitimate scientific questions, and there are many people working on uncovering legitimate theoretical answers to them. The general school of thought that these questions may have answers that are knowable to someone in this Universe is known as dynamics, or the notion that there is a physical answer to this question. The alternative is that "the Universe just kind of is this way and there is no knowable reason."-"So, as scientists, we are left with two options:
1.Work as hard as we can to find the dynamics that lead our Universe to be the way it is.
2.Give up on dynamics, and make arguments to justify our ignorance.-"And there are many scientists — surprisingly and frustratingly — who have chosen the second path.-"Simply speaking, the anthropic principle is the idea that the Universe is the way it is to us because it needed to be this way, or there would be no observers here to observe it. The fact that we are here, observing it right now, tells us that the Universe couldn't have existed in a way inconsistent with the potential existence of intelligent observers.-"This is true, of course, but that's all we can learn from it. The question we want to answer is how: how did the Universe come to be this way, to have these properties? And saying "the anthropic principle" or (even worse) "the multiverse" simply isn't going to cut it.-"A statement or admission of our own ignorance, that we do not understand the dynamics that gave rise to the constants of our Universe, does not mean that there are none, that all values are taken on somewhere in some Universe, and that ours just happens to have the values it does, which are serendipitous to our existence.-"That line of thinking not only isn't even science, it's a cop-out, and a distraction from those who are actually seeking scientific answers to the hardest of scientific problems out there.-"The multiverse may be real, but it doesn't hold the answer to the question of why the fundamental constants have the values they do. It can constrain what they must be, but that's all the anthropic principle can do. To get the rest of the way there — to understand why our Universe has the properties it does — requires that we look for dynamics. They may not exist in an accessible way in our Universe, but we have to try, we have to look, and we have to ask.-"The cost of giving up, of not looking for an answer that the Universe might actually reveal if we did, is far too high."

Fine tuning specifics

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Monday, April 07, 2014, 04:22 (3884 days ago) @ David Turell

There is a third possibility. The third possibility is to say it is there because God made it that way, and then ask:-Why did he make it that way?
What purpose do they serve?
How was it accomplished?
How does this aspect of the design influence the overall design?

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Fine tuning specifics

by David Turell @, Monday, April 07, 2014, 05:24 (3884 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Tony:There is a third possibility. The third possibility is to say it is there because God made it that way, and then ask:
> 
> Why did he make it that way?
> What purpose do they serve?
> How was it accomplished?
> How does this aspect of the design influence the overall design?-I have always thought that God gave us intellect to challenge us to figure it out. One of the philosophic thoughts is that it is the only way it can be.

Fine tuning specifics

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Monday, April 07, 2014, 22:32 (3883 days ago) @ David Turell

Tony:There is a third possibility. The third possibility is to say it is there because God made it that way, and then ask:
> > 
> > Why did he make it that way?
> > What purpose do they serve?
> > How was it accomplished?
> > How does this aspect of the design influence the overall design?
> 
>David: I have always thought that God gave us intellect to challenge us to figure it out. One of the philosophic thoughts is that it is the only way it can be.-
Sounds remarkably similar to: I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it..(Ecclesiastes 3:14)

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Fine tuning specifics

by David Turell @, Tuesday, April 08, 2014, 00:19 (3883 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained


> 
> George: Sounds remarkably similar to: I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it..(Ecclesiastes 3:14)-You know the Bible much better than I do. :>))

Fine tuning specifics: Higgs

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 18, 2014, 15:28 (3658 days ago) @ David Turell

Why did the universe expand after the BB. The Higgs interaction with gravity? the last fine-tuned parameter not calculated:-http://phys.org/news/2014-11-gravity-universe-big.html

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by David Turell @, Friday, December 26, 2014, 18:33 (3620 days ago) @ David Turell

The number of parameters for life, including 200 just for Earth itself, preclude the probabilities of chance ever being the cause:-http://www.wsj.com/articles/eric-metaxas-science-increasingly-makes-the-case-for-god-1419544568-"Yet here we are, not only existing, but talking about existing. What can account for it? Can every one of those many parameters have been perfect by accident? At what point is it fair to admit that science suggests that we cannot be the result of random forces? Doesn't assuming that an intelligence created these perfect conditions require far less faith than believing that a life-sustaining Earth just happened to beat the inconceivable odds to come into being?"-Makes perfect sense to me. Anything else requires full faith in 'chance' alone. Fred Hoyle tried to be an atheist most of his life:-"Fred Hoyle, the astronomer who [jokingly] coined the term “big bang,” said that his atheism was “greatly shaken” at these developments. He later wrote that “a common-sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with the physics, as well as with chemistry and biology . . . . The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.”"-Theoretical physicist Paul Davies has said that “the appearance of design is overwhelming” and Oxford professor Dr. John Lennox has said “the more we get to know about our universe, the more the hypothesis that there is a Creator . . . gains in credibility as the best explanation of why we are here.”

Fine tuning specifics: universe expansion speed

by David Turell @, Thursday, March 03, 2016, 22:17 (3187 days ago) @ David Turell

Acts as a protection against gamma ray bursts which could kill life by moving planets out to the safer areas of galaxies:- http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/02/conditions-life-may-hinge-how-fast-universe-expa... dense environments, you have many explosions, and you're too close to them,” says cosmologist and theoretical physicist Raul Jimenez of the University of Barcelona in Spain and an author on the new study. “It's best to be in the outskirts, or in regions that have not been highly populated by small galaxies—and that's exactly where the Milky Way is.”-***-"Jimenez and colleagues tackled one, large-scale facet of the anthropic principle. They used a computer model to run simulations of the universe expanding and accelerating at many different speeds. They then measured how changing the cosmological constant affected the universe's density, paying particular attention to what that meant about gamma ray bursts raining down radiation on stars and planets.-"As it turns out, our universe seems to get it just about right. The existing cosmological constant means the rate of expansion is large enough that it minimizes planets' exposure to gamma ray bursts, but small enough to form lots of hydrogen-burning stars around which life can exist. (A faster expansion rate would make it hard for gas clouds to collapse into stars.)-"Jimenez says the expansion of the universe played a bigger role in creating habitable worlds than he expected. “It was surprising to me that you do need the cosmological constant to clear out the region and make it more suburbanlike,” he says.-"Beyond what they reveal about the potential for life in our galaxy and beyond, the findings offer a new nugget of insight into one of the biggest puzzles in cosmology: why the cosmological constant is what it is, says cosmologist Alan Heavens, director of the Imperial Centre for Inference and Cosmology at Imperial College London.-***-"Lee Smolin, a theoretical physicist at Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Waterloo, Canada, and a skeptic of the anthropic principle, says the paper's argument is a novel one and that on first reading he didn't see any obvious mistakes. “I've not heard it before, so they're to be praised for making a new argument,” he says.-"However, he adds, all truly anthropic arguments to date fall back on fallacies or circular reasoning. For example, many tend to cherry-pick by looking only at one variable in the development of life at a time; looking at several variables at once could lead to a different conclusion.-"Jimenez says the next step is to investigate whether gamma ray bursts are really as devastating to life as scientists believe. His team's work has shown only that exposure to such massive bursts of radiation would almost certainly peel away a planet's protective ozone layer. “Is this going to be catastrophic to life?” he says. “I think so, but it may be that life is more resilient than we think.'”-Comment: Further work may answer Smolin's comment.

Fine tuning specifics: explaining cosmic constants

by David Turell @, Tuesday, March 08, 2016, 00:38 (3183 days ago) @ David Turell

The universe seems fine-tuned. Why are those constants constant, the value they are for seemingly no good reason or are they?:-http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/are-the-constants-of-physics-constant/?WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20160307-"Paul Dirac, wondered in a Nature paper whether the constants were indeed constant if one were to look at the entire history of the cosmos. Measurements on earth are useful but it is a tiny blue dot in the vast universe. What Dirac asked decades ago is what physicists continue to ask today. Is it a constant everywhere in the universe? Why is it a constant? How constant? The question lingered even as the decades rolled on. “The most exact value at present for the ratio of proton to electron mass is 1836.12 +/-0.05,” wrote Friedrich Lenz in a 1951 Physical Review Letters paper. “It may be of interest to note that this number coincides with 6pi^2=1836.12.” That was the entire paper.-*** -"The universe went through three broad phases - the initial radiation dominated phase soon after the Big Bang, a long matter dominated phase, and then a very long dark energy dominated phase that began six billion years ago. One hypothesis is that the mass ratio might have varied only in transitions between the phases. The actual value of the mass ratio (1836.15267389) is not of as much a concern as the uncertainty around its stature as a constant. -***-"The mass ratio, they write, varies less than 0.0005 percent, not enough to call it a change. This is based on telescope observations going as far as 12.4 billion years back in time when the universe was only 10 percent of its current age.-***-"The Vrije Universiteit group is one of a handful of teams in the world that has been on the case of the proton-electron mass ratio for over a decade. -***-"They have even used the Hubble Space Telescope to look at white dwarf stars to see if environments with 10,000 times more gravity than earth would alter the mass ratio.-"And...nada. 'Null result' is one of the most common phrases in their papers. Which is good. Even a small change of a few percent in the value of the ratio would mean a different universe. A smaller mass ratio could mean a wimpier proton, and possibly a weaker pull for the electrons orbiting the nucleus, leading to different kind of matter.-***- "Therein lies the quandary which makes the VU team's research feel like it is equal parts futile and important. No theory in physics can explain the constant mass ratio, the steadfast shepherd of science. It just is, *shrug*."-Comment: The fine-tuning constants are so far constant. By looking back into the past with the Hubble telescope and other new ones to come they are shown not to change during the history of the universe's evolution. Maybe they were planned that way!

Fine tuning specifics: are we alone

by David Turell @, Monday, March 21, 2016, 23:24 (3169 days ago) @ David Turell

John Stonestreet thinks so: - http://www.breakpoint.org/bpcommentaries/entry/13/28991 - "According to the famous Drake equation, a probabilistic argument designed by SETI pioneer, Frank Drake, there could be as many as 100 million thriving, communicative extraterrestrial civilizations in our galaxy—many of them more advanced than our own. - *** - "...one astrophysicist argues in a forthcoming paper, the old estimates vastly inflated the number of potential alien civilizations. Eric Zackrisson at Sweden's Uppsala University suggests that modern research points not to a galaxy “throbbing and humming” with life, but to one in which Earth-like planets are exceedingly rare. - "It turns out that Drake's equation failed to take into account factors that we now know to be essential to life. For example, scientists once believed that planets orbiting a certain distance from their host stars in the so-called “Goldilocks zone” were prime real estate for creatures like us. - "But not anymore. It turns out that the size and chemical composition of the host stars matters just as much as planetary orbits. And according to Zackrisson, most planets in the universe likely orbit stars that bear little resemblance to our sun. These stars are either much bigger, much smaller, or just made of the wrong stuff. - "And in light of the fruitless fifty-year search for extraterrestrial radio signals, predictions of a sky buzzing with activity are sounding less like science and more like science fiction. Increasingly, it looks as if we are alone in the universe. - "And just how alone? Zackrisson estimates that given all the factors that make Earth what it is, our planet may be one in 700 quintillion to host intelligent life. That's one out of seven followed by twenty zeros, or the estimated number of planets in the entire universe. - Nathaniel Scharping at Discover Magazine writes with a straight face that Earth appears to have been dealt “a fairly lucky hand.” He makes up for this understatement later, concluding that, “from a purely statistical standpoint, Earth perhaps shouldn't exist.” - "And yet, here we are. - "Intelligent Design theorists have long pointed out how improbably unique our little blue planet is. And findings like this only deepen the problem for materialists. Because if thinking creatures emerged here and nowhere else, it makes us look less like accidents and more like—dare I say it—miracles." - Comment: A miracle by God?

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by David Turell @, Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 14:59 (2769 days ago) @ David Turell

Another take by Marvin Olasky:

https://townhall.com/columnists/marvinolasky/2017/04/25/gods-fingerprints-are-everywher...

"First, we live on a Goldilocks “just right” planet within a Goldilocks universe. The “RTB Design Compendium” at reasons.org lists nearly 1,500 features of the universe and Earth that must fall within narrow ranges to allow for the possibility of life, and then advanced life. For example: We need a particular composition of the Earth’s core and atmosphere, a particular Earth axis tilt and rotation speed, particular capillary action and surface tension, and so on.

"We exist because of things most of us know nothing about: cosmic ray protons, intergalactic hydrogen gas clouds, molecular hydrogen formed by supernova eruptions, etc. If one loose definition of miracle is “a highly improbable or extraordinary event,” look at the likelihood of simple bacteria being able to survive anywhere in the universe apart from divine action: 1 chance in 10 followed by 556 zeros. What about the likelihood of advanced life? One chance in 10 followed by 1,054 zeros.

In February’s Super Bowl the New England Patriots trailed by 25 points with 17 minutes and 7 seconds left in the game. They managed to tie the game and win it in overtime: Headlines proclaimed “a miracle comeback.” But what if the Patriots had trailed by 8,216 points and needed to score one touchdown (plus two extra points) in every one of those 1,027 seconds left in the game? That gives us a sense of the unlikeliness of our existence purely through material causes -- and we’d have to multiply that physical improbability/impossibility by about a trillion. (That’s why some atheistic scientists grab on to the wacky multiverse theory.)

"The second proof of God’s existence: 20th-century theodicy. Decisions by three atheists -- Mao, Stalin, and Hitler -- led to 100 million deaths. Some people say that shows a merciful God does not exist, but we should flip the surmise: Atheism kills, and we’ve seen since the 1930s what happens when we worship human gods. (Yes, some “Christians” have also murdered, in smaller quantities, but they also claimed godlike status.) God warns us throughout the Bible that sin has consequences: Should we consider Him a liar because He tells the truth?

"Why don’t we wake up every morning and realize our existence is miraculous? Maybe because so much noise surrounds us. But here’s a third reason to believe in God: I’ve met some men in their 20s whose thinking as teens was so destructive that it looked as if they would soon be dead, imprisoned, or traitorous. I was one of them. But “the steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end” -- and the Bible tells me so.

"God has sent a message, not in background radiation but in our existence, our history, and in what should be our daily reading."

Comment: His message is the micro point discussions we have on one tiny aspect of God's reality are beside the point. The overall picture proves God beyond a reasonable doubt.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by dhw, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 09:27 (2768 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Another take by Marvin Olasky:
https://townhall.com/columnists/marvinolasky/2017/04/25/gods-fingerprints-are-everywher...

Although I am sceptical about precise figures relating to unsolved and possibly insoluble mysteries, I accept that life and evolution are both miraculous events, and one needs a mighty restrictive pair of blinkers to dismiss the argument for design. Sadly, the rest of the article reveals an attitude just as blinkered.

QUOTE: The second proof of God’s existence: 20th-century theodicy. Decisions by three atheists -- Mao, Stalin, and Hitler -- led to 100 million deaths. Some people say that shows a merciful God does not exist, but we should flip the surmise: Atheism kills….

We’ve heard this nonsense over and over again. Atheism does not kill. Mao, Stalin and Hitler did not slaughter millions in the name of atheism, and I do not know of any atheist literature that can be interpreted as an order to unbelievers to go and kill anyone who does not share their unbelief. Olasky generously mentions Christians - though not Muslims - who have slaughtered others, but they only did it on a smaller scale (ah, so that's OK, then) and claimed godlike status! (I thought they believed they were doing the will of God.) And to say that the megalomania of dictators proves the existence of God is a non sequitur that is not worth wasting time on.

QUOTE: "Why don’t we wake up every morning and realize our existence is miraculous?

Does he believe that atheists are incapable of appreciating the miraculousness of life?

QUOTE: But here’s a third reason to believe in God: I’ve met some men in their 20s whose thinking as teens was so destructive that it looked as if they would soon be dead, imprisoned, or traitorous. I was one of them. But “the steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end” -- and the Bible tells me so.

The third reason to believe in God is that he believes in God and it helped him to become a better person. I appreciate that such faith can indeed be a power for good. So can a placebo. It doesn’t prove God exists, let alone that his mercies never come to an end.

David’s comment: His message is the micro point discussions we have on one tiny aspect of God's reality are beside the point. The overall picture proves God beyond a reasonable doubt.

Apart from the Goldilocks argument, which we have agreed on many times, if the rest of our discussions sank to this level of thinking, I would close the site down.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 14:06 (2768 days ago) @ dhw

QUOTE: "Why don’t we wake up every morning and realize our existence is miraculous?

dhw: Does he believe that atheists are incapable of appreciating the miraculousness of life?

Um, yes...because they are. They can not, by definition, appreciate it as a miracle.

QUOTE: But here’s a third reason to believe in God: I’ve met some men in their 20s whose thinking as teens was so destructive that it looked as if they would soon be dead, imprisoned, or traitorous. I was one of them. But “the steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end” -- and the Bible tells me so.

dhw: The third reason to believe in God is that he believes in God and it helped him to become a better person. I appreciate that such faith can indeed be a power for good. So can a placebo. It doesn’t prove God exists, let alone that his mercies never come to an end.

Well, if you accept that there is a God as a given, and then look at all of creation through the lens of that faith, you do begin to get a sense of his love and mercy. Moreover, when you begin to get that sense, you also begin to feel a sense of awe, reverence, appreciation, along with seeing the need for responsibility and accountability for your actions because you see your life, and all other life, as a precious gift that should be cared for.

That is not to say that Atheist can not be accountable, but honestly, what reason do they have to be? They are just 'unimportant, momentary, minuscule specks in a vast indifferent Universe'. If they are right, their actions, ours, or anyone's make no difference whatsoever. Burn the world and damn it all, it doesn't matter one whit. What evolution did before it can do again, and WILL! Anything and everything is meaningless, and therefore valueless because it is all just blind random chance, so do what you want, when you want, how you want, and who cares how destructive you are in the process. After all, its all temporary anyway.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by dhw, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 12:15 (2767 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

QUOTE: "Why don’t we wake up every morning and realize our existence is miraculous?
dhw: Does he believe that atheists are incapable of appreciating the miraculousness of life?
TONY: Um, yes...because they are. They can not, by definition, appreciate it as a miracle.

Only if you define “miracle” as an act of God. It can also be defined as “any amazing or wonderful event” (Encarta).

dhw: The third reason to believe in God is that he believes in God and it helped him to become a better person. I appreciate that such faith can indeed be a power for good. So can a placebo. It doesn’t prove God exists, let alone that his mercies never come to an end.

TONY: Well, if you accept that there is a God as a given, and then look at all of creation through the lens of that faith, you do begin to get a sense of his love and mercy. Moreover, when you begin to get that sense, you also begin to feel a sense of awe, reverence, appreciation, along with seeing the need for responsibility and accountability for your actions because you see your life, and all other life, as a precious gift that should be cared for.
That is not to say that Atheist can not be accountable, but honestly, what reason do they have to be? They are just 'unimportant, momentary, minuscule specks in a vast indifferent Universe'. If they are right, their actions, ours, or anyone's make no difference whatsoever. Burn the world and damn it all, it doesn't matter one whit. What evolution did before it can do again, and WILL! Anything and everything is meaningless, and therefore valueless because it is all just blind random chance, so do what you want, when you want, how you want, and who cares how destructive you are in the process. After all, its all temporary anyway.

You must have had some truly terrible encounters with atheists to have formed such a jaundiced vision. It is as unbalanced as the view that belief in God leads only to bigotry, fear, and the extremes of violence that we now see every day being perpetrated in the name of the Almighty. Some of the kindest, most conscientious people I know are atheists or agnostics, and their lack of faith does not in any sense diminish their sense of awe at the sheer wonderfulness of life, mixed with their sense of horror at the destructiveness of their fellow humans. As for responsibility and accountability, do you really think that belief in God is the only possible motive for love of one’s fellow creatures? You know as well as I do that there are forms of Buddhism that dispense entirely with gods and hold all life to be sacred, but you don’t even have to be a Buddhist to practise love, empathy, sympathy, charity, honesty, fellowship etc. You talk as if anyone who doesn’t believe in your God is bound to have no social conscience and by nature to be a thief, rapist or murderer. And philosophically can you not see that the sheer temporality of our lives renders every moment precious? “Meaningless” and “valueless”? On the contrary, it endows the present with unique meaning and value, and if we are to make the most of it, what better way can there be than seeking happiness for ourselves and others? What makes you think atheists only enjoy destruction? Speaking for myself, I love life, respect my fellow creatures, do my very best to help others, and would never ever deliberately cause pain to anyone or anything. Maybe your God exists, maybe he doesn’t, but such a being plays no part in my approach to life and to my fellow animals. And I can assure you that I am not alone.

DAVID: Sometimes it is good to present what pure believing passion sounds like. No sense of a smidgen of doubt. Are atheists that convinced of their position?

In my view it’s not good if it’s a destructive distortion, whether the passion is theistic or atheistic. It fosters prejudice and conflict. Next you’ll be applauding jihadists and embracing Dawkins.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by David Turell @, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 20:06 (2767 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Sometimes it is good to present what pure believing passion sounds like. No sense of a smidgen of doubt. Are atheists that convinced of their position?

dhw:In my view it’s not good if it’s a destructive distortion, whether the passion is theistic or atheistic. It fosters prejudice and conflict. Next you’ll be applauding jihadists and embracing Dawkins.

Never jihadists or Dawkins. I did not extend my comment to destructive distortion, which is your prejudice about religion.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by dhw, Friday, April 28, 2017, 17:54 (2766 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Sometimes it is good to present what pure believing passion sounds like. No sense of a smidgen of doubt. Are atheists that convinced of their position?

dhw:In my view it’s not good if it’s a destructive distortion, whether the passion is theistic or atheistic. It fosters prejudice and conflict. Next you’ll be applauding jihadists and embracing Dawkins.

DAVID: Never jihadists or Dawkins. I did not extend my comment to destructive distortion, which is your prejudice about religion.

To blame atheism for the slaughter of the Jews seems to me as destructive a distortion as to blame theism for the jihad. You were defending Olasky’s article, and in my view such distortions can only foster prejudice and conflict. I don’t know what you are referring to when you accuse me of “prejudice about religion”.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by David Turell @, Saturday, April 29, 2017, 01:00 (2766 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: To blame atheism for the slaughter of the Jews seems to me as destructive a distortion as to blame theism for the jihad. You were defending Olasky’s article, and in my view such distortions can only foster prejudice and conflict. I don’t know what you are referring to when you accuse me of “prejudice about religion”.

It is my distinct impression that you are highly prejudiced against religion in general.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Saturday, April 29, 2017, 06:34 (2765 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: To blame atheism for the slaughter of the Jews seems to me as destructive a distortion as to blame theism for the jihad. You were defending Olasky’s article, and in my view such distortions can only foster prejudice and conflict. I don’t know what you are referring to when you accuse me of “prejudice about religion”.


David: It is my distinct impression that you are highly prejudiced against religion in general.

It is my impression that he likes to tweak our beards. :-P When I look at the world, particularly the world of Atheist, I see a certain tendency towards fatalism. Particularly in the hardline materialist versions that both deny free will and subscribe to the at death there is nothing mentality. YOLO, right?

Yes, there are variants on many religions that have the same impact, which is why we see the same results. The line of reasoning that believes in predestination, or a divine will that guides everything tiny detail of what happens in all of creation is every bit as toxic as Atheism, and for exactly the same reason!

However, a careful study of the bible actually addresses all of those points, which is why among true Christians (i.e. those that study and follow the bible as oppose to those that ignore the bible and follow people) avoid those pitfalls. Ironically, the bible also talks about those who are NOT Christians that follow the Christian laws. (Romans 2:13-15) This would be the group that DHW lumps himself in with: good people who try to live a principled life in a loving manner.

The bible declares our free will as a gift from God. It shows that we are accountable both to our fellow humans and to our creator for our actions. It shows that our lives are a precious gift and that recklessly endangering them is not only against our best interest but disrespectful and ungrateful. It teaches that imprisoning men is a pointless waste of time, that man will dominate man to his injury, that the love of money is the root of much wickedness. Yes, it teaches us that the perfect standard is unattainable, but also that there is compassion and forgiveness for our mistakes provided we not only feel remorse but do our best to make amends and correct ourselves, which also sets the stage for how we should treat others, by pointing out that it is impossible to meet everyone's expectations so we should forgive each other where they fall short.

So yes, some Atheists are good people, and some theists are bad people. That is a fair statement. However, in my humble opinion, Atheism can never measure up to the bible. Not only does it lack the explanatory power, but it also lacks the humility.

Ecclesiastes 8:17 No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by David Turell @, Saturday, April 29, 2017, 15:41 (2765 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained


David: It is my distinct impression that you are highly prejudiced against religion in general.


It is my impression that he likes to tweak our beards. :-P When I look at the world, particularly the world of Atheist, I see a certain tendency towards fatalism. Particularly in the hardline materialist versions that both deny free will and subscribe to the at death there is nothing mentality. YOLO, right?

I fully agree.


Tony: Ironically, the bible also talks about those who are NOT Christians that follow the Christian laws. (Romans 2:13-15) This would be the group that DHW lumps himself in with: good people who try to live a principled life in a loving manner.

dhw more than lumps. I know his life and he is principled and loving.


Tony: It teaches that imprisoning men is a pointless waste of time, that man will dominate man to his injury, that the love of money is the root of much wickedness.

Based on that what is to be done with criminals?

Tony: Yes, it teaches us that the perfect standard is unattainable, but also that there is compassion and forgiveness for our mistakes provided we not only feel remorse but do our best to make amends and correct ourselves, which also sets the stage for how we should treat others, by pointing out that it is impossible to meet everyone's expectations so we should forgive each other where they fall short.

What if 'falling short' is a deliberate act against one?

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Saturday, April 29, 2017, 15:53 (2765 days ago) @ David Turell

Tony: It teaches that imprisoning men is a pointless waste of time, that man will dominate man to his injury, that the love of money is the root of much wickedness.


David: Based on that what is to be done with criminals?

Biblically, there were only a few courses of action. For most crimes paying restitution at a rate of three, seven, or ten times the amount of loss/damage was pretty standard. For more extreme crimes, it was either exile or death. Essentially, those that were redeemable were able to redeem themselves while still being a productive member of society (no tax burden) and were able to retain a positive, healthy sense of self-esteem without being locked into a negative cycle of poverty and crime. Those that were not were permanently removed from society. The cities of refuge may be considered a type of prison, though the people in them were free to move around and do what they wanted as long as they didn't leave the city. Still, better and cheaper than what we do now.

Tony: Yes, it teaches us that the perfect standard is unattainable, but also that there is compassion and forgiveness for our mistakes provided we not only feel remorse but do our best to make amends and correct ourselves, which also sets the stage for how we should treat others, by pointing out that it is impossible to meet everyone's expectations so we should forgive each other where they fall short.


David: What if 'falling short' is a deliberate act against one?

Forgive, if you can. Forgiveness is a funny thing. For those that have the right heart condition, it will make them ashamed and they will change their ways. For those that don't, it is like dumping hot coals on their head. Either way, you win. Besides, forgiveness isn't just for the other person. It brings peace to the wronged party as well.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by David Turell @, Saturday, April 29, 2017, 16:05 (2765 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Tony: It teaches that imprisoning men is a pointless waste of time, that man will dominate man to his injury, that the love of money is the root of much wickedness.


David: Based on that what is to be done with criminals?


Tony: Biblically, there were only a few courses of action. For most crimes paying restitution at a rate of three, seven, or ten times the amount of loss/damage was pretty standard. For more extreme crimes, it was either exile or death. Essentially, those that were redeemable were able to redeem themselves while still being a productive member of society (no tax burden) and were able to retain a positive, healthy sense of self-esteem without being locked into a negative cycle of poverty and crime. Those that were not were permanently removed from society. The cities of refuge may be considered a type of prison, though the people in them were free to move around and do what they wanted as long as they didn't leave the city. Still, better and cheaper than what we do now.

Thank you for the explanation. In my tour of Israel I didn't see any examples of ancient prisons.


David: What if 'falling short' is a deliberate act against one?


Tony: Forgive, if you can. Forgiveness is a funny thing. For those that have the right heart condition, it will make them ashamed and they will change their ways. For those that don't, it is like dumping hot coals on their head. Either way, you win. Besides, forgiveness isn't just for the other person. It brings peace to the wronged party as well.

Understood, But in my life in a very few incidents, didn't work.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by dhw, Monday, May 01, 2017, 09:11 (2763 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

dhw: To blame atheism for the slaughter of the Jews seems to me as destructive a distortion as to blame theism for the jihad. You were defending Olasky’s article, and in my view such distortions can only foster prejudice and conflict. I don’t know what you are referring to when you accuse me of “prejudice about religion”.
DAVID: It is my distinct impression that you are highly prejudiced against religion in general.

I join you in not recognizing the authority of the bible and in not following any organized religion, but I have the utmost respect for people with religious beliefs, provided those beliefs are not harmful. And so if by “religion” you mean dogma and ritual, I agree that like yourself I am anti (call us both prejudiced if you like). If you meant belief in a god or gods, I am an agnostic, which means I have not made a decision either way. I don’t see how “I can’t decide” constitutes prejudice. I did not set up this website to attack or defend belief in God, but to try to gain insights into questions I am unable to answer. However, if I am offered insights that do not make sense to me, I will always say so and try to explain why. I can't see how this constitutes prejudice either.

TONY: It is my impression that he likes to tweak our beards.:-) When I look at the world, particularly the world of Atheist, I see a certain tendency towards fatalism. Particularly in the hardline materialist versions that both deny free will and subscribe to the at death there is nothing mentality. YOLO, right?
Yes, there are variants on many religions that have the same impact, which is why we see the same results. The line of reasoning that believes in predestination, or a divine will that guides everything tiny detail of what happens in all of creation is every bit as toxic as Atheism, and for exactly the same reason!

I agree that any beliefs, religious or non-religious, which lead to lack of responsibility are toxic. But I don’t know why YOLO should be toxic, unless once again it leads to harmful behaviour. As I keep saying, it’s perfectly possible to be happy and kind to others without believing in an afterlife.

TONY: The bible declares our free will as a gift from God. It shows that we are accountable both to our fellow humans and to our creator for our actions.

Humanism leaves out God/the Creator.

TONY: It shows that our lives are a precious gift and that recklessly endangering them is not only against our best interest but disrespectful and ungrateful.

I don’t know of any atheist who would disagree.

TONY: [...] man will dominate man to his injury, that the love of money is the root of much wickedness.

Agreed.

TONY: Yes, it teaches us that the perfect standard is unattainable, but also that there is compassion and forgiveness for our mistakes provided we not only feel remorse but do our best to make amends and correct ourselves, which also sets the stage for how we should treat others, by pointing out that it is impossible to meet everyone's expectations so we should forgive each other where they fall short.

I don’t think any humanist would disagree with the argument that we should feel remorse for our mistakes and try to make amends. I’m not sure that I would be capable of forgiving someone who raped or murdered my child – but we are all different.

TONY: So yes, some Atheists are good people, and some theists are bad people. That is a fair statement. However, in my humble opinion, Atheism can never measure up to the bible. Not only does it lack the explanatory power, but it also lacks the humility.

Anyone who claims to know the truth – whether theistic or atheistic – lacks intellectual humility. Atheism doesn’t seek to explain anything. It is simply a denial that God exists. All of us, however – theists, atheists and agnostics alike – look for explanations, and may find some more convincing than others, but your quote from Ecclesiastes 8:17 sums it all up beautifully:

"No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it."

Neither the bible nor the wise people who give us their personal interpretations of the bible, nor the scientists, nor the philosophers - theistic and atheistic - with their unproven and probably unprovable theories can comprehend what goes on, even to the extent that nobody knows if there is any meaning beyond the meaning we as individuals give it. Some of the many authors of the bible were indeed extremely wise, and as an agnostic I can only applaud this unknown author’s insight.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by David Turell @, Monday, May 01, 2017, 19:10 (2763 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: To blame atheism for the slaughter of the Jews seems to me as destructive a distortion as to blame theism for the jihad. You were defending Olasky’s article, and in my view such distortions can only foster prejudice and conflict. I don’t know what you are referring to when you accuse me of “prejudice about religion”.
DAVID: It is my distinct impression that you are highly prejudiced against religion in general.

dhw: I join you in not recognizing the authority of the bible and in not following any organized religion, but I have the utmost respect for people with religious beliefs, provided those beliefs are not harmful. And so if by “religion” you mean dogma and ritual, I agree that like yourself I am anti (call us both prejudiced if you like).

You have described my meaning exactly.

dhw: "No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it."

Neither the bible nor the wise people who give us their personal interpretations of the bible, nor the scientists, nor the philosophers - theistic and atheistic - with their unproven and probably unprovable theories can comprehend what goes on, even to the extent that nobody knows if there is any meaning beyond the meaning we as individuals give it. Some of the many authors of the bible were indeed extremely wise, and as an agnostic I can only applaud this unknown author’s insight.

There were two or more writers of Genesis according to scholars.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Monday, May 01, 2017, 21:28 (2763 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: To blame atheism for the slaughter of the Jews seems to me as destructive a distortion as to blame theism for the jihad. You were defending Olasky’s article, and in my view such distortions can only foster prejudice and conflict. I don’t know what you are referring to when you accuse me of “prejudice about religion”.
DAVID: It is my distinct impression that you are highly prejudiced against religion in general.

dhw: I join you in not recognizing the authority of the bible and in not following any organized religion, but I have the utmost respect for people with religious beliefs, provided those beliefs are not harmful. And so if by “religion” you mean dogma and ritual, I agree that like yourself I am anti (call us both prejudiced if you like).


David: You have described my meaning exactly.

Harmful is a funny topic. Harmful to whom and under what circumstances? If the bible is to be believed, Armageddon would likely destroy millions of people, topple governments, and generally destroy society as we know it, much as the flood did in Noah's time. However, in the long term, if it would mean an end to the evils that plague mankind, would you still consider it harmful?

dhw: "No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it."

Neither the bible nor the wise people who give us their personal interpretations of the bible, nor the scientists, nor the philosophers - theistic and atheistic - with their unproven and probably unprovable theories can comprehend what goes on, even to the extent that nobody knows if there is any meaning beyond the meaning we as individuals give it. Some of the many authors of the bible were indeed extremely wise, and as an agnostic I can only applaud this unknown author’s insight.


David: There were two or more writers of Genesis according to scholars.

There were undoubtedly many writers that contributed to the bible. However, they are considered divinely inspired writings (by those that believe in them), and as such are considered to have one author: God. Much like a single author using multiple publishers. It doesn't matter who does the printing, the author hasn't changed.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by dhw, Tuesday, May 02, 2017, 11:56 (2762 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

dhw: To blame atheism for the slaughter of the Jews seems to me as destructive a distortion as to blame theism for the jihad. You were defending Olasky’s article, and in my view such distortions can only foster prejudice and conflict. I don’t know what you are referring to when you accuse me of “prejudice about religion”.
DAVID: It is my distinct impression that you are highly prejudiced against religion in general.

dhw: I join you in not recognizing the authority of the bible and in not following any organized religion, but I have the utmost respect for people with religious beliefs, provided those beliefs are not harmful. And so if by “religion” you mean dogma and ritual, I agree that like yourself I am anti (call us both prejudiced if you like).
DAVID: You have described my meaning exactly.

Normally when one person accuses another of being highly prejudiced, it is a criticism, so I wonder why you picked on me when you actually meant both of us. (Actually, I do not regard our shared dislike of dogma and ritual as prejudice, but that’s beside the point.)

TONY:(quoting) "No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it."
Dhw: Neither the bible nor the wise people who give us their personal interpretations of the bible, nor the scientists, nor the philosophers - theistic and atheistic - with their unproven and probably unprovable theories can comprehend what goes on, even to the extent that nobody knows if there is any meaning beyond the meaning we as individuals give it. Some of the many authors of the bible were indeed extremely wise, and as an agnostic I can only applaud this unknown author’s insight.

DAVID: There were two or more writers of Genesis according to scholars.
TONY: There were undoubtedly many writers that contributed to the bible. However, they are considered divinely inspired writings (by those that believe in them), and as such are considered to have one author: God. Much like a single author using multiple publishers. It doesn't matter who does the printing, the author hasn't changed.

The quote is from Ecclesiastes, not Genesis, but in any case I very much doubt that it required more than one person to put together those three little sentences. I’m surprised you are focusing on the author(s) rather than on the content of the message, but since both of you have such fixed views about the truth, perhaps you would prefer to ignore that. (Yes, Tony, I am tweaking your beards!:-) )

Dhw: I have the utmost respect for people with religious beliefs, provided those beliefs are not harmful.
TONY: Harmful is a funny topic. Harmful to whom and under what circumstances? If the bible is to be believed, Armageddon would likely destroy millions of people, topple governments, and generally destroy society as we know it, much as the flood did in Noah's time. However, in the long term, if it would mean an end to the evils that plague mankind, would you still consider it harmful?

Your example does not illustrate the point I was making, which concerned religious belief, not your God’s actions or Armageddon. The short answer to your own question, though, is that the story of Noah’s flood has always appalled me, because I cannot believe for one moment that every single man, woman and above all child – apart from Noah and his family – deserved to be wiped off the face of the earth. As for the point that I was making, you really don’t need me to explain, but I will because you have questioned it. Any religious belief that leads a person to cause physical or mental damage to others is what I mean by “harmful”. For example, I am opposed to a belief that drives someone to plant a bomb or crash a truck or plane in the hope that God will reward him for killing infidels. I have no doubt that you will feel the same way.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by David Turell @, Tuesday, May 02, 2017, 18:35 (2762 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: To blame atheism for the slaughter of the Jews seems to me as destructive a distortion as to blame theism for the jihad. You were defending Olasky’s article, and in my view such distortions can only foster prejudice and conflict. I don’t know what you are referring to when you accuse me of “prejudice about religion”.
DAVID: It is my distinct impression that you are highly prejudiced against religion in general.

dhw: I join you in not recognizing the authority of the bible and in not following any organized religion, but I have the utmost respect for people with religious beliefs, provided those beliefs are not harmful. And so if by “religion” you mean dogma and ritual, I agree that like yourself I am anti (call us both prejudiced if you like).
DAVID: You have described my meaning exactly.

dhw: Normally when one person accuses another of being highly prejudiced, it is a criticism, so I wonder why you picked on me when you actually meant both of us. (Actually, I do not regard our shared dislike of dogma and ritual as prejudice, but that’s beside the point.)

I think it is prejudicial.


Dhw: I have the utmost respect for people with religious beliefs, provided those beliefs are not harmful.

TONY: Harmful is a funny topic. Harmful to whom and under what circumstances? If the bible is to be believed, Armageddon would likely destroy millions of people, topple governments, and generally destroy society as we know it, much as the flood did in Noah's time. However, in the long term, if it would mean an end to the evils that plague mankind, would you still consider it harmful?

dhw: Your example does not illustrate the point I was making, which concerned religious belief, not your God’s actions or Armageddon. The short answer to your own question, though, is that the story of Noah’s flood has always appalled me, because I cannot believe for one moment that every single man, woman and above all child – apart from Noah and his family – deserved to be wiped off the face of the earth. As for the point that I was making, you really don’t need me to explain, but I will because you have questioned it. Any religious belief that leads a person to cause physical or mental damage to others is what I mean by “harmful”. For example, I am opposed to a belief that drives someone to plant a bomb or crash a truck or plane in the hope that God will reward him for killing infidels. I have no doubt that you will feel the same way.

I certainly agree.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Wednesday, May 03, 2017, 00:20 (2762 days ago) @ dhw

TONY:(quoting) "No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it."
DAVID: There were two or more writers of Genesis according to scholars.
TONY: There were undoubtedly many writers that contributed to the bible. However, they are considered divinely inspired writings (by those that believe in them), and as such are considered to have one author: God. Much like a single author using multiple publishers. It doesn't matter who does the printing, the author hasn't changed.

DHW: The quote is from Ecclesiastes, not Genesis, but in any case I very much doubt that it required more than one person to put together those three little sentences. I’m surprised you are focusing on the author(s) rather than on the content of the message, but since both of you have such fixed views about the truth, perhaps you would prefer to ignore that. (Yes, Tony, I am tweaking your beards!:-) )

Well, we all three definitely fit into the category of the first two sentences. Fortunately the three of us at least openly admit that we do not comprehend.


Dhw: I have the utmost respect for people with religious beliefs, provided those beliefs are not harmful.
TONY: Harmful is a funny topic. Harmful to whom and under what circumstances? If the bible is to be believed, Armageddon would likely destroy millions of people, topple governments, and generally destroy society as we know it, much as the flood did in Noah's time. However, in the long term, if it would mean an end to the evils that plague mankind, would you still consider it harmful?

DHW: Your example does not illustrate the point I was making, which concerned religious belief, not your God’s actions or Armageddon. The short answer to your own question, though, is that the story of Noah’s flood has always appalled me, because I cannot believe for one moment that every single man, woman and above all child – apart from Noah and his family – deserved to be wiped off the face of the earth. As for the point that I was making, you really don’t need me to explain, but I will because you have questioned it. Any religious belief that leads a person to cause physical or mental damage to others is what I mean by “harmful”. For example, I am opposed to a belief that drives someone to plant a bomb or crash a truck or plane in the hope that God will reward him for killing infidels. I have no doubt that you will feel the same way.

Here in the U.S., and in much of the so-called civilized world, it is considered harmful to spank a child. Now, the bible says that sparing the rod spoils the child and that a father that does not discipline his son actually hates him. So, the question is, do you consider something like spanking to be 'harmful'? And before this gets derailed, I am not talking about beatings. Just good old fashioned spankings.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by David Turell @, Wednesday, May 03, 2017, 01:23 (2762 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

DHW: Your example does not illustrate the point I was making, which concerned religious belief, not your God’s actions or Armageddon. The short answer to your own question, though, is that the story of Noah’s flood has always appalled me, because I cannot believe for one moment that every single man, woman and above all child – apart from Noah and his family – deserved to be wiped off the face of the earth. As for the point that I was making, you really don’t need me to explain, but I will because you have questioned it. Any religious belief that leads a person to cause physical or mental damage to others is what I mean by “harmful”. For example, I am opposed to a belief that drives someone to plant a bomb or crash a truck or plane in the hope that God will reward him for killing infidels. I have no doubt that you will feel the same way.


Tony: Here in the U.S., and in much of the so-called civilized world, it is considered harmful to spank a child. Now, the bible says that sparing the rod spoils the child and that a father that does not discipline his son actually hates him. So, the question is, do you consider something like spanking to be 'harmful'? And before this gets derailed, I am not talking about beatings. Just good old fashioned spankings.

I did not spank. My father threatened to, but never did. Verbal control is sufficient if handled properly. They were firmly taught. They got small allowances since they had to learn to budget; they helped around the house and yard. They all wanted phone lines in high school. Our house looked like a bookie joint, but they each had a part time job to pay for their own phone. They all went to college on my dime, but I didn't pay for sororities or fraternities in the budgeted monies they were given. They were given vehicles in their senior year of college so when they graduated they had their own transportation. They were told their time at home ended with college graduation. They were to work and support themselves. Later on they all thanked me for teaching them how to handle adult living. Tough love, yes, but the only kind worth it.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by dhw, Wednesday, May 03, 2017, 13:03 (2761 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

TONY:(quoting) "No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it."
dhw: I’m surprised you are focusing on the author(s) rather than on the content of the message, but since both of you have such fixed views about the truth, perhaps you would prefer to ignore that. (Yes, Tony, I am tweaking your beards!:-) )
TONY: Well, we all three definitely fit into the category of the first two sentences. Fortunately the three of us at least openly admit that we do not comprehend.

Agreed. Why do you confine the three of us to the first two sentences?

dhw: I have the utmost respect for people with religious beliefs, provided those beliefs are not harmful.
TONY: Harmful is a funny topic. Harmful to whom and under what circumstances? […]
dhw: Any religious belief that leads a person to cause physical or mental damage to others is what I mean by “harmful”. For example, I am opposed to a belief that drives someone to plant a bomb or crash a truck or plane in the hope that God will reward him for killing infidels. I have no doubt that you will feel the same way.

TONY: Here in the U.S., and in much of the so-called civilized world, it is considered harmful to spank a child. Now, the bible says that sparing the rod spoils the child and that a father that does not discipline his son actually hates him. So, the question is, do you consider something like spanking to be 'harmful'? And before this gets derailed, I am not talking about beatings. Just good old fashioned spankings.

Ah Tony, you are embarking on an endless game. Why is corporal punishment “the” question? I gave you clear examples of beliefs I considered harmful, and I assumed you would agree. But of course there are grey areas, and so now you can go through every instruction (and individual interpretation of every instruction) in the bible to see whether I consider it harmful or not! However, since you believe corporal punishment to be “the” question, I will give you my purely personal opinion. We never spanked our children, but I’d say that whether spanking is a “good” form of discipline or not depends on the nature of the offence, of the child, and of the spirit in which it is carried out. Assuming that correction is essential, if you spank your children because they do not respond to verbal admonitions, reasoning or, as generally sufficed in our family, an angry flash from the eyes of my beloved late wife, I shan’t have any less respect for your belief in God and in your own interpretation of his wishes.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Thursday, April 27, 2017, 23:27 (2767 days ago) @ dhw

DHW: Only if you define “miracle” as an act of God. It can also be defined as “any amazing or wonderful event” (Encarta).

And of course you ignore the primary definition of miracle that says " event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency". Sure. And I can accept evolution if it just means to change over time. Of course, we both know that miracles are not considered natural events and evolution means more than simply changing, but we can pretend otherwise when it makes our point, right?

TONY: That is not to say that Atheist can not be accountable, but honestly, what reason do they have to be? They are just 'unimportant, momentary, minuscule specks in a vast indifferent Universe'. If they are right, their actions, ours, or anyone's make no difference whatsoever.[/i]

My apologies, but I had to restructure your response here to be able to answer your points in logical order.

DHW: You must have had some truly terrible encounters with atheists to have formed such a jaundiced vision. ... As for responsibility and accountability, do you really think that belief in God is the only possible motive for love of one’s fellow creatures?...

I did NOT say that they COULD NOT be responsible, nor that they were only capable of destruction. Do not twist my words, please.

I simply asked what reason they have to hold themselves responsible or accountable if all of this is just a happy accident in an otherwise cold and indifferent universe. And I am not the only one that sees the problem with this:

http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=46

In a naturalistic world view, whether Agnostic or Atheistic, humanity is truly neither more nor less than any other animal. Note, I am not talking about any individuals views here, but the philosophy of naturalism as a whole. It is all just one happy accident of nature and your fellow man is nothing more than another animal. Pain, pleasure, joy, sadness, none of these things are real. They are simply the firing of synapses in your brain that illicit a biochemical response your brain interprets a different way.

Because of that, there is no logical grounds for any form of morality except that which produces pleasurable biochemical responses for the individual. We know that different people find 'pleasure' in different things, including pulling the wings off bugs or hurting their fellow man. By naturalistic philosophy, they are neither more nor less right than someone that wishes to protect all life. Further, because naturalism reduces, and in some cases seeks to eliminate free will, if they hold some sense of accountability or responsibility for their actions it is logically inconsistent. After all, if you have no free will, then by definition you are NOT responsible for your actions.

DHW:And philosophically can you not see that the sheer temporality of our lives renders every moment precious? “Meaningless” and “valueless”? On the contrary, it endows the present with unique meaning and value, and if we are to make the most of it, what better way can there be than seeking happiness for ourselves and others? What makes you think atheists only enjoy destruction?..

The temporality actually makes them less meaningful in most cases, not more so. While it may make our PERSONAL life more meaningful to us as individuals, it can just as easily be used to cheapen life. I mean, why NOT drop a bomb that will kill millions? After all, they were all going to die soon anyway. I know you have some experience with Africa. Surely you have seen how cheap life became there to so many. If not, then perhaps Somalia? Bosnia? What about the half a million people in Syria? Or the nearly half a million in Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan? Still not ringing any alarm bells? And before you respond, note that I am not blaming any of the deaths in those places purely on Atheism, but merely pointing out how easy it is for life to become cheap and dispensable. How easy it is for people to not see the people as anything other than numbers. When you hear a news report from those places, do you stop to think of every individual human that was murdered, or are they just a faceless number? What human could bear up under the weight of that if they truly felt any accountability or responsibility?

Perhaps you may think my response and view about these events odd, but let me remind you that I was a soldier that served in war time. I had to see their faces. They can not ever be faceless to me again. I can't even watch the news anymore without getting sick.

DHW:You know as well as I do that there are forms of Buddhism that dispense entirely with gods and hold all life to be sacred, but you don’t even have to be a Buddhist to practice love, empathy, sympathy, charity, honesty, fellowship etc.

As for your reference to Buddhism; Buddhist believe in a cycle reincarnation and karma known as Samsara, which provides the 'supernatural' consequences for their actions. Despite their not believing in a God, they still have an externally imposed morality.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by dhw, Friday, April 28, 2017, 18:11 (2766 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

DHW: Only if you define “miracle” as an act of God. It can also be defined as “any amazing or wonderful event” (Encarta).
TONY: And of course you ignore the primary definition of miracle that says " event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency".

The work of a divine agency is an “act of God”. I merely pointed out that atheists are perfectly capable of appreciating the “amazing and wonderful event” of life, which is another definition of “miracle”.

TONY: I did NOT say that they COULD NOT be responsible, nor that they were only capable of destruction. Do not twist my words, please. I simply asked what reason they have to hold themselves responsible or accountable if all of this is just a happy accident in an otherwise cold and indifferent universe.

Let me give you a reason. This life is the only reality atheists know, and they are just as capable as theists of loving their fellow creatures and of treasuring life, which entails both responsibility and accountability to themselves and to others. In addition to our natural human feelings for one another, we are social beings. Society cannot function without responsibility and accountability. Our laws are based on precisely that ethos, which can be summed up as “do as you would be done by”.

You go on to summarize “naturalistic” philosophy, and I will cherrypick comments in order to respond to each point you make:

TONY: In a naturalistic world view, whether Agnostic or Atheistic, humanity is truly neither more nor less than any other animal.

Yes, we all end up as dust. But I am more intelligent than other organisms, and although I eat and use them, if they do not threaten me I should respect them as fellow beings that feel and suffer as I do. What else do you mean by “neither more nor less”.

TONY: […] Pain, pleasure, joy, sadness, none of these things are real. They are simply the firing of synapses in your brain that illicit a biochemical response your brain interprets a different way.

Of course they are real. Why on earth should the materiality of their source make them unreal? (NB I am wearing a naturalist hat here – I am neither a materialist nor a dualist.) Do I not feel the reality of pain, pleasure, joy, sadness if I don't believe in God? And am I so stupid as to believe that others can’t feel what I feel?

TONY: Because of that, there is no logical grounds for any form of morality except that which produces pleasurable biochemical responses for the individual.

Gratification of selfish desires is NOT the only pleasure for an atheist. Loving and being loved, respecting and being respected are every bit as natural, and the individual lives in a society of other individuals, all of whom are subject to the same “logical grounds” for morality.

TONY: …if you have no free will, then by definition you are NOT responsible for your actions.

This would apply just as much to those who do good as to those who do evil, but it does not make evil natural and good unnatural, and I doubt very much whether the majority of criminals have actually delved into the complexities of determinism versus free will anyway. In the social framework, if we did live in a world governed by “naturalistic” philosophy, logic would demand that we enforce the same rules as theists in order to protect ourselves. Nothing to do with theism versus atheism.

DHW:And philosophically can you not see that the sheer temporality of our lives renders every moment precious? […] what better way can there be than seeking happiness for ourselves and others? What makes you think atheists only enjoy destruction?..
TONY: The temporality actually makes them less meaningful in most cases, not more so. While it may make our PERSONAL life more meaningful to us as individuals, it can just as easily be used to cheapen life. I mean, why NOT drop a bomb that will kill millions? After all, they were all going to die soon anyway. […] And before you respond, note that I am not blaming any of the deaths in those places purely on Atheism, but merely pointing out how easy it is for life to become cheap and dispensable…I can't even watch the news anymore without getting sick.

I don’t like shortening this paragraph, because it is intensely moving and a tremendous indictment of man’s appalling inhumanity to man. There is nothing here for me to disagree with. But I am pleased that you do not lay the blame “purely on Atheism”. That, you will recall, was my vehement objection to Olasky. In my view, it should not be laid on atheism at all but on the flaws in human nature that manifest themselves regardless of religious or non-religious beliefs. In the moral context, the do-as-you-would-be-done-by rule underlies all humanistic philosophy as well as most religions.

TONY: As for your reference to Buddhism; Buddhist believe in a cycle reincarnation and karma known as Samsara, which provides the 'supernatural' consequences for their actions. Despite their not believing in a God, they still have an externally imposed morality.

The same function is fulfilled by society.

Xxxx

Please note: I may not be able to post any responses until Monday. Apologies in advance.

Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God

by David Turell @, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 16:01 (2768 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: David’s comment: His message is the micro point discussions we have on one tiny aspect of God's reality are beside the point. The overall picture proves God beyond a reasonable doubt.

Apart from the Goldilocks argument, which we have agreed on many times, if the rest of our discussions sank to this level of thinking, I would close the site down.

Sometimes it is good to present what pure believing passion sounds like. No sense of a smidgen of doubt. Are atheists that convinced of their position?

Fine tuning specifics: applied to biological systems

by David Turell @, Wednesday, October 07, 2020, 20:45 (1508 days ago) @ David Turell

A new paper analyzing fine tuning as seen in biology:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022519320302071

"Abstract
Fine-tuning has received much attention in physics, and it states that the fundamental constants of physics are finely tuned to precise values for a rich chemistry and life permittance. It has not yet been applied in a broad manner to molecular biology. However, in this paper we argue that biological systems present fine-tuning at different levels, e.g. functional proteins, complex biochemical machines in living cells, and cellular networks. This paper describes molecular fine-tuning, how it can be used in biology, and how it challenges conventional Darwinian thinking. We also discuss the statistical methods underpinning fine-tuning and present a framework for such analysis.

"Fine-tuning and design are related entities. Fine-tuning is a bottom-up method, while design is more like a top-down approach. Hence, we focus on the topic of fine-tuning in the present paper and address the following questions: Is it possible to recognize fine-tuning in biological systems at the levels of functional proteins, protein groups and cellular networks? Can fine-tuning in molecular biology be formulated using state of the art statistical methods, or are the arguments just “in the eyes of the beholder”?

***

"The odds against our universe developing were “enormous” – and yet here we are, a point that equates with religious implications,

***

"Behe exemplified systems, like the flagellum bacteria use to swim and the blood-clotting cascade, that he called irreducibly complex, configured as a remarkable teamwork of several (often dozen or more) interacting proteins. Is it possible on an incremental model that such a system could evolve for something that does not yet exist? Many biological systems do not appear to have a functional viable predecessor from which they could have evolved stepwise, and the occurrence in one leap by chance is extremely small. To rephrase the first man on the moon: “That's no small steps of proteins, no giant leap for biology.”

***

"Though proteins tolerate a range of possible amino acids at some positions in the sequence, a random process producing amino-acid chains of this length would stumble onto a functional protein only about one in every 1050 to 1074 attempts due to genetic variation. This empirical result is quite analog to the inference from fine-tuned physics.

***

"Recently Kozulic and Leisola (2015) made careful analyses of these results, and concluded that even with very conservative conditions, the probability of finding ATP binding activity that would function in a cell, would be less than 1 in 10.

***

"...even if the natural laws work against the development of these “irreducible complexities”, they still exist. The strong synergy within the protein complex makes it irreducible to an incremental process. They are rather to be acknowledged as fine-tuned initial conditions of the constituting protein sequences. These structures are biological examples of nano-engineering that surpass anything human engineers have created. Such systems pose a serious challenge to a Darwinian account of evolution, since irreducibly complex systems have no direct series of selectable intermediates, and in addition, as we saw in Section 4.1, each module (protein) is of low probability by itself.

***

"As the complexity of an interacting system increases, the likelihood of such an indirect route drops quickly. Hence, Darwinian explanations of irreducibly complex systems are improbable. Ultimately, this is a question that must be studied both experimentally and by computer simulations. Behe’s concept of irreducible complexity has not been falsified by computer models biochemical or cellular system, “only a variety of wishful speculations”

***

"Protein complexes perform their biological functions in a cooperative manner through their participation in many biological processes and networks, from the nucleus to the cell membrane. Cellular networks are also known to contain feedback loops and cycles.

***

"A major conclusion of our work is that fine-tuning is a clear feature of biological systems. Indeed, fine-tuning is even more extreme in biological systems than in inorganic systems. It is detectable within the realm of scientific methodology. Biology is inherently more complicated than the large-scale universe and so fine-tuning is even more a feature."

Comment: No question fine tuning is seen in living biology. This paper has lots of mathematics as they try to look for statistical systems to clarify the issue. Much more work is needed is their answer. They widely quote the ID folks as a reasonable basis for this view.

Fine tuning specifics: pre-biotic molecules to make life?

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 10, 2020, 00:03 (1475 days ago) @ David Turell

Studies of prebiotic molecule make them look as if preparing forb life:

https://mindmatters.ai/2020/11/has-a-computer-algorithm-discovered-the-secret-of-life/

"Origin of life studies have been hampered by the fact that, most often, the researcher is identifying a single, comparatively simple idea, whether it is RNA world or hydrothermal vents, that is supposed to make all the difference. But nothing ties the researcher’s favored idea into the thousands of other factors is any systematic way.

"Could Big Data, which can factor in millions of pieces of information, help? Rana tells us that the Polish Academy of Sciences has developed a computer algorithm called Alchemy that came up with some “rather intriguing results”:

"'This work also shows that, in principle, complex chemical mixtures can give rise to some interesting emergent features that have bearing on chemical evolution and the rise of the chemical complexity and organization required for the origin of life. Nevertheless, we are still a far distance from arriving at any real understanding as to how life could have emerged through evolutionary processes."

"The reason the Beilstein model doesn’t directly answer the question of how life began is that, while it can generate many possibilities, it can’t tell us what the conditions really were. It offers possible models. And just as a map is not the territory, a model is not reality.

"Rana goes on to point out that in the real world, chemical assortments must cope with, for example, unfriendly external atmosphere, toxic concentrations, kinetic effects, and the availability of energy sources. Any failure could prevent further development.

"However, he notes, the massive computer crunch did turn up something quite interesting: A pattern that played itself out repeatedly, which suggests that chemistry might be rigged to produce life:

"'As a case in point, it is provocative that the 82 biotic compounds which formed—a small fraction of the nearly 37,000 compounds generated by the in silico reactions—all share a suite of physicochemical properties that make these compounds unusually stable and relatively unreactive. These qualities cause these materials to persist in the prebiotic setting. It is also intriguing that these 82 compounds display synthetic redundancy, with the capability of being generated by several distinct chemical routes. It is also fortuitous that these compounds possess the just-right set of properties—many of which overlap with the set of properties that distinguish them from the vast number of abiotic compounds—that make them ideally suited to survive on early Earth and useful as building block materials for life."

"In other words, there appear to be constraints on prebiotic chemistry that inevitably lead to the production of key biotic molecules with the just-right properties that make them unusually stable and ideally suited for life. This remarkable coincidence is a bit “suspicious” and highly fortuitous, suggesting a fitness for purpose to the nature of prebiotic chemistry. To put it another way: There is an apparent teleology to prebiotic chemistry. It appears that the laws of physics and chemistry may well have been rigged at the outset to ensure that life’s building blocks naturally emerged under the conditions of early Earth."

Comment: As in all perceived 'fine tuning' is it all wickedly by wild chance or is there a mind's plan behind it?

Fine tuning specifics: applied to biological systems

by David Turell @, Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 14:47 (1159 days ago) @ David Turell

From a discussion as to why life is so fine-tuned:

https://mindmatters.ai/2021/09/life-is-so-wonderfully-finely-tuned-that-its-frightening/

"We can say that something is fine tuned if it’s complex, unlikely to occur by chance. Secondly, if there’s an independent description or specification of the thing that is fine tuned.

"Now there are a number of features within the cells that satisfy these two requirements. The first are proteins. In order for the cell to manufacture proteins, there is an amino acid sequence written in a 20-letter alphabet of amino acids.

"Amino acids form the building blocks of the protein. In order for a protein to work, when these amino acids are manufactured in the ribosomes of the cell, this amino acid string has to be folding in a complicated three-dimensional structure that is specific for each protein. That is necessary for the protein to work. This is a complex structure because, if we look at all possible amino acid sequences of a certain length, there could be a few thousand amino acids that comprise a protein.

"It turns out that [only] a very small fraction of amino acids sequences give us a functioning protein. That is the first definition of fine tuning. It’s complex. It is unlikely to happen by chance, to get a functioning protein. The second part: We should have an independent specification. In this case, the specification is that the protein works. For that reason, a protein is an example of a fine tuned structure in biology.

"Then we could get up to the next hierarchical level and look at complexes of proteins, like molecular machines. The ribosome that manufactures proteins in the cell is itself a molecular machine that consists of many proteins that have to be arranged in a certain structure in order to work.

"Another example is mitochondria in the cell plasma. These are the power stations of the cell that generate ATP. This is also an example of a molecular machine where all parts have to be structured in a certain way. One could say — we talked about this during the first episode — a specific case or a special case of fine tuning are irreducibly complex systems: It consists of many small parts, and all parts must function in order for the whole system to work.

***

"Ola Hössjer: Yes. And another, you could view the whole cell as a cellular city. It has a network of roads, or factories and power stations.

"Robert J. Marks: These are things which display irreducible complexity. You take away one piece, the whole thing falls apart.

"Ola Hössjer: Yes. Because it’s one layer above above the protein complexes. If the parts themselves are the protein complexes, the molecular machines that we talked about are irreducibly complex. Then that will be the case also on the next level. Not by definition, but typically, that is the case.

Comment: A single cell is so fine-tuned its origin requires a designer. At what point of demonstrated complexity of design does one have to accept a designer exists? It is a logical next step in reasoning.

Fine tuning specifics: applied to biological systems

by David Turell @, Sunday, October 09, 2022, 05:45 (777 days ago) @ David Turell

Fine tuning in cell functions:

https://salvomag.com/article/salvo62/finely-tuned-life

"In Fit for a Purpose: Does the Anthropic Principle Include Biochemistry? Dr. Fazale Rana revisits Henderson’s thesis and examines key biochemical systems to ascertain whether the anthropic principle manifest at the cosmological scale is similarly evident in the world of the microscopic.

"Rana’s working hypothesis is, “f the Creator intentionally designed the universe to be biofriendly, then he wouldn’t have limited the influence of the universe’s physical constants to the processes of star and planetary formation,” but rather would have “designed the physical constants to influence chemical and biological systems as well.”1 Rana points out that Henderson demonstrated over 100 years ago that anthropic principles abounded in chemistry. This was manifested in Henderson’s insightful characterization of the acid-base buffering systems in blood, the cytoplasm of the cell, and other bodily fluids. Henderson had argued that such a perfect system could never have arisen from the unguided processes of natural selection.

'In examining several key biochemical systems (nucleic acid and protein synthesis, cell membrane formation, and energy harvesting pathways), Rana sought to answer three questions: (1) Does a molecular rationale and logic undergird the structure and function of these systems? (2) Are such physicochemical constraints as molecular geometry and hydrophobicity (the property of being repelled by water), dictated by the laws of nature, responsible for the configuration and activity of these systems? (3) When the structural properties and functional features of natural biochemical systems are compared with other conceivable biochemical analogs, do the natural systems display the just-right properties that make them unusually fit for life? If the answer to all three questions is yes, Rana argues, then these biochemical systems manifest anthropic coincidences.

"Rana’s investigation reveals that not only are all three of these criteria met but that they demonstrate optimization—which is not what we would expect from complex systems arising from purely materialistic processes.

"Rana then asks: What are the implications of embracing an anthropic principle for biochemical systems? Does this insight advance knowledge or present new avenues for research?

"Under the naturalistic paradigm, biochemical systems are said to be the consequence of blind processes occurring over geological time. Consequently, research has primarily focused on characterizing or describing their properties. Rana suggests that an anthropic framework opens up new avenues for research because, as questions formerly raised to answer “what” and “how” are advanced to answer “why,” scientists will seek principles informed by such a framework. These principles would be powerful tools for developing new technologies.

"Scientists will likely resist a biochemical anthropic principle (as many did the cosmological one) because methodological naturalism has held sway for so long. Nevertheless, Rana asserts that there are excellent reasons to affirm the biochemical anthropic principle that biological systems demonstrate exquisite fine-tuning with the just-right properties to sustain life—characteristics that by necessity evince a Mind.

Comment: no doubt, a designing mind is requjired.

Fine tuning specifics: applied to biological systems

by David Turell @, Thursday, October 13, 2022, 17:30 (772 days ago) @ David Turell

More complete study of ATP rotary mechanism:

https://phys.org/news/2022-10-molecular-motor-specialists-deepen-rotary-ion.html

"A team of specialists in nano-sized rotational motors have directly visualized the process of pumping sodium ions, enabling them to explain why there had up until now appeared to be a structural symmetry mismatch between two motors that make up part of the key protein driving the process. Their findings should help develop a better understanding of the mechanisms involved with cellular energy-conversion motors more generally.

***

"Many will remember from secondary-school biology how in complex cells, a protein called ATP synthase—embedded in the membrane of the mitochondria, often described as the powerhouse of the cell—operates sort of like the way that a hydroelectric plant works, but to produce usable energy for an organism. A hydroelectric plant exploits the rush of water coming from the reservoir behind a dam to turn a turbine that drives a dynamo that produces electricity.

"Similarly, the "rotors" of an ATP synthase protein use a rush of protons from a region on one side of the membrane with a high proton concentration to a region on the other side of low concentration (a "proton gradient") to rotate a "stalk" within the ATP synthase that manufactures molecules of adenosine triphosphate (ATP)—the energy currency of the cell that is used to power its activities.

"There is also an "opposite" protein to the ATP synthase called vacuolar ATPase (V-ATPase) that operates as a proton "pump" that uses the energy from ATP to produce a proton gradient. (In a similar way to how some hydroelectric plants that operate like large batteries can work in reverse, using electricity to pump water back up into a reservoir)

"V-ATPases consist of two rotary motors, Vo and V1, and earlier studies had been conducted on model types of V-ATPases to understand how these two motor proteins are able to couple their rotational motions and functions.

***

"Furthermore, V-ATPases can pump not just protons, but also sodium ions (Na+) as well. In the bacterium Enterococcus hirae (E. hirae—which sometimes causes sepsis in humans), its V-ATPase works as an ATP-driven Na+ pump to maintain desired sodium ion concentrations inside the cell.

What was known about the heretofore under-investigated E. hirae V-ATPase is that a unit of the ATP energy currency is "spent" (hydrolyzed), driving rotation of its V1 motor (EhV1; the other motor is called EhVo). But it does this in stepwise fashion. EhV1 rotates only 120° per "expenditure" of ATP, meaning that it takes 3 ATP molecules to rotate a full 360°.

"In addition, previous research by the scientists had found that each 120° step of the EhV1 rotor is further divided into sub-steps of 40° and 80° (adding up to 120°). But the scientists had been unable to clearly resolve quite how steps and related pauses of EhVo in rotation occurred.

"The key mystery was a mismatch between the two motors. ATP hydrolysis generates rotational torque in the EhV1 motor, which is then translated to the EhVo motor. The latter motor also has a subunit composed of a ring of ten subunits (c10-ring), which rotates in the membrane. The sodium ions are transported across the membrane by the rotation of this c10-ring.

"But there's a structural symmetry mismatch here: the ratio between the number of sodium ions transported and the number of ATP spent per rotation," said Ryota Iino, a biophysicist and professor from the Institute for Molecular Science of Japan's National Institutes of Natural Sciences.

"'There are ten sodium ions transported per full turn, and each full turn costs three ATP, or one ATP per 120° step of the EhV1 motor," Professor Iino continued. "Ten divided by three obviously equals 3.3, or one and a third sodium ions. But you can't have a third of a sodium ion. So what's going on?"

***

"Using a 40-nanometer nanoparticle of gold as a probe that could be tracked with a high-speed camera, the researchers found that the binding of sodium ions and binding of ATP to different parts of the protein occur at different angles, and the coupling between the two motors does indeed involve a rigid component. The rigid component in turn requires 13 pauses—resolving the mismatch (and need for a "third" of a sodium ion), as well as occasional backward steps in the process.

The results also confirm that V-ATPases, with their multiple peripheral stalks, are more "rigidly coupled than the ATPases that only have one peripheral stalk and work as ATP synthases."

Comment: a perfect example of irreducible complexity. This cannot be formed by stepwise mutations. It must be formed by a full design step. It is obvious a designer must exist.

Fine tuning specifics: fine structure constant

by David Turell @, Monday, November 21, 2022, 18:01 (733 days ago) @ David Turell

A major part of fine tuning:

https://phys.org/news/2022-11-technique-fine-constant.html

"The fine structure constant is one of the most important natural constants of all. At TU Wien, a remarkable way of measuring it has been found—it shows up as a rotation angle.

"One over 137: This is one of the most important numbers in physics. It is the approximate value of the so-called fine structure constant—a physical quantity that is of outstanding importance in atomic and particle physics.

***

"The fine structure constant describes the strength of the electromagnetic interaction. It indicates how strongly charged particles such as electrons react to electromagnetic fields. If the fine structure constant had a different value, our universe would look completely different—atoms would have a different size, so all chemistry would work differently, and nuclear fusion in the stars would be completely different as well.

"A much-discussed question is whether the fine structure constant is actually constant, or whether it could possibly have changed its value a little over billions of years.

"'Most important physical constants have a specific unit—for example, the speed of light, which can be given in the unit of meters per second," says Prof. Andrei Pimenov from the Institute of Solid State Physics at TU Wien. "It's different with the fine structure constant. It has no unit, it is simply a number—it is dimensionless.'"

***

"A laser beam is polarized linearly—the light oscillates exactly in vertical direction. Then the beam hits a layer of a special material that is only a few nanometers thick. This material has the property of changing the polarization direction of the light.

"'A material rotating the polarization of a laser beam is, by itself, nothing unusual. Different materials can do this; the thicker the material layer, the more the polarization of the laser is rotated. But we are dealing with a completely different effect here," explains Andrei Pimenov. "In our case, the polarization is not rotated continuously—it jumps."

"When passing through the thin film, the polarization direction of the light performs a quantum jump. After passing through, the light wave oscillates in a different direction than before. And when the size of this jump is calculated, an astonishing result appears: the quantum of this angular change is exactly the fine structure constant.

"'We thus have direct access to something quite unusual: a quantum of rotation," says Andrei Pimenov. "The fine structure constant becomes immediately visible as an angle.'"

Comment: a great example of fine tuning.

Fine tuning specifics: Earth vs. Venus

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 23, 2022, 15:28 (731 days ago) @ David Turell

The planets are virtual twins. Why is Venus a basket case of greenhouse effect? Volcanism run amok:

https://www.sciencealert.com/volcanoes-may-have-transformed-venus-into-a-blistering-hel...

"Modern-day Venus is a blistering hellscape. The temperature rises above 464 °C (850 °F, 737 °K), which is, as Universe Today readers know, hot enough to melt lead (and spacecraft).

***

"But modern-day Venus might be dramatically different from ancient Venus. Some research shows that ancient Venus had an atmosphere similar to ancient Earth's.

"The planet may also have had substantial quantities of water on its surface. It's possible that simple life existed on Venus at one time, but there's not enough evidence yet to prove or disprove that.

"A new study shows that massive volcanic eruptions over an extended period of time may be responsible for changing the planet into what it is today. If there was simple life on ancient Venus, volcanism was its doom.

"The study also shows how powerful volcanic activity has played a role in shaping Earth's habitability and how Earth only narrowly avoided the same fate as Venus.

***

"Earth has experienced prolonged periods of sustained volcanic eruptions in its history. Large Igneous Provinces (LIPs) are the evidence for the periods, which can last hundreds of thousands of years – maybe even millions of years.

***

"Venus's greenhouse effect is exacerbated by its apparent lack of plate tectonics. Earth's plate tectonics allows heat from the planet's interior to reach the surface by periodically opening the mantle blanket. (my bold)

"It also takes carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and into rock via weathering and subduction.

***

"Life on Earth suffered mightily from powerful and sustained volcanic activity. But it always recovered, and the volcanoes never caused a runaway greenhouse effect, while Venus suffers to this day from the effect. What's the difference?

"The scale of eruptions had something to do with it. Venus's surface is 80 percent covered with solidified volcanic rock. The sulphur in the atmosphere is also evidence of pronounced volcanic activity. And Venus' surface has fewer craters than expected, indicating abundant volcanic activity in the last few hundred million years.

"But the study should make anyone uncomfortable. Though Earth has avoided the runaway greenhouse effect, it may only have narrowly avoided it.

"Untangling the history of volcanism, impacts, and extinctions in Earth's history is challenging because craters get erased. There are scientific efforts to understand the conditions in Earth's mantle that lead to LIPs, but that's also a difficult task.

***

"Earth's volcanic activity is similar to Venus's because the planets are "sister planets." They're very close in size and are both rocky planets in the inner Solar System (my bold)

"But the critical thing they share when it comes to volcanism is their bulk composition. Since they formed in the same region of the Solar System, they have very similar compositions. (my bold)

***

"'[W]e find that the probability of the largest LIP in recorded Earth history overlapping with a similar-sized (in area) event is approximately 30 percent. Multiple simultaneous LIPs may be important drivers of the transition from a serene habitable surface to a hothouse state for terrestrial worlds, assuming they have Earth-like geochemistries and mantle convection dynamics," the paper states.

"There's a point where all of this diverges. While we have fairly complete and reliable data on Earth's LIPs, we don't have anywhere near that for Venus. But the research shows that, even with our lack of detailed data, it's likely that Venus suffered overlapping LIPs that led to its doom."

Comment: seemingly twins at their start they ended up differently. One with plate tectonics, one without. The authors note other differences (my bolds) but my point is this dumb luck or God's guidance? This is another firm aspect of fine-tuning.

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