Free will and wiring (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Thursday, April 03, 2014, 15:39 (3887 days ago)

Mouse brain wiring gives a hint of human brain complexity and the reality of self:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140402133943.htm

Free will and wiring

by David Turell @, Thursday, April 03, 2014, 22:33 (3887 days ago) @ David Turell

Mouse brain wiring gives a hint of human brain complexity and the reality of self:
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140402133943.htm-"As we have seen before the brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. That is not all the brains on Earth, nor all human brains, but merely a single brain of a single human. With over 100 billion nerve cells, or neurons, and a quadrillion synapses, or connections, it is, as one researcher described, "truly awesome." Researchers have found that the brain's complexity is beyond anything they'd imagined, or as one evolutionist admitted, almost to the point of being "beyond belief." Amidst all these nerve cells and connections, a key question is: "Exactly which nerve cells do all these connections link together?" These connections should reveal a great deal about how the brain works, for while a single nerve cell may be enormously complex, it is in the massive networking of these many neurons that the brain's fantastic processing and cognitive powers are likely to emerge.- "It was a massive imaging job and it has produced almost two petabytes of data. The result is a high-level view of the mouse brain's wiring diagram. The diagram is like a map of the major freeways and highways between cities, except the brain's mapping is in three dimensions and is far more complex"-http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2014/04/mapping-brains-connectionsthe-connectome.html

Free will: reasoned article

by David Turell @, Monday, May 19, 2014, 15:39 (3841 days ago) @ David Turell

This article by a research scientist fits my view of free will. Not Libet's-https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/content/what-are-implications-free-will-debate-individuals-and-society

Free will: reasoned article

by romansh ⌂ @, Monday, May 19, 2014, 16:44 (3841 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by unknown, Monday, May 19, 2014, 17:38

This article by a research scientist fits my view of free will. Not Libet's
> 
> https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/content/what-are-implications-free-will-debate-indiv... problem for me is Mele he is erudite and a compatibilist.-As your fits my view of free will seems to indicate.
James described compatibilism as a quagmire of evasion and Kant as a wretched subtefuge; both believed in free will.-Alfed Mele a few years ago took a grant (4 M$) from the Templeton Foundation to study free will. He was a compatibilist back then and remains one now it seems.-That our wills might be determined by quantum phenomena or more classical phenomena does not change the fact they are caused by these events. If our wills are actually acausal, this might explain alot but it makes a complete nonsense of the concept of free will. And this for me is why the concept of free will is non sequitur. -This I find an equally compelling view.

Free will: reasoned article

by David Turell @, Monday, May 19, 2014, 17:56 (3841 days ago) @ romansh


> Romansh: Alfed Mele a few years ago took a grant (4 M$) from the Templeton Foundation to study free will. He was a compatibilist back then and remains one now it seems.
> 
> That our wills might be determined by quantum phenomena or more classical phenomena does not change the fact they are caused by these events. If our wills are actually acausal, this might explain alot but it makes a complete nonsense of the concept of free will. And this for me is why the concept of free will is non sequitur. 
> 
> This I find an equally compelling view.-We will have to agree that we are on opposite sides of the fence. Blakemore and I are worlds apart in our thinking. And that is ever since I read her book Dying to Live, with its pseudo-medical physiology interpretations.-I'm not enough of a philosopher to worry about the way my brain hands me myself and my consciousness, because what we discover is that it is probably the only way a biological computer can do the job we need. I cannot try to influence individual neurons, unless I consciously sedate them with alcohol or neuroactive drugs. And I remain consciously aware of what I have done to impair myself when I have used alcohol.

Free will: brain activity

by David Turell @, Tuesday, June 10, 2014, 15:11 (3819 days ago) @ David Turell

Another EEG study with reference to Libet. Doesn't seem to clarify much:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140609153508.htm-"The new results build on Libet's finding, because they provide a model for how brain activity could precede decision, Bengson said. Additionally, Libet had to rely on when volunteers said they made their decision. In the new experiment, the random timing means that "we know people aren't making the decision in advance," Bengson said.
 
"Libet's experiment raised questions of free will -- if our brain is preparing to act before we know we are going to act, how do we make a conscious decision to act? The new work, though, shows how "brain noise" might actually create the opening for free will, Bengson said.
 
"It inserts a random effect that allows us to be freed from simple cause and effect," he said."

Free will: brain activity

by GateKeeper @, Tuesday, June 10, 2014, 15:32 (3819 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by unknown, Tuesday, June 10, 2014, 15:38

Another EEG study with reference to Libet. Doesn't seem to clarify much:
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140609153508.htm
> 
> "The new results build on Libet's finding, because they provide a model for how brain activity could precede decision, Bengson said. Additionally, Libet had to rely on when volunteers said they made their decision. In the new experiment, the random timing means that "we know people aren't making the decision in advance," Bengson said.
> 
> "Libet's experiment raised questions of free will -- if our brain is preparing to act before we know we are going to act, how do we make a conscious decision to act? The new work, though, shows how "brain noise" might actually create the opening for free will, Bengson said.
> 
> "It inserts a random effect that allows us to be freed from simple cause and effect," he said."-Thank you david.-or action potential misunderstandings. Maybe even input through the body processing "anticipated" actions. Or "anticipation" is the changes in action potentials they are seeing, not the choice per say. -but to your point. I have often told rom that my glitchy brain allows for some free will in me. well, I don't believe in a "will" as defined, but you get the point. My question is based on the set up conditions.-I have an experiment to try.-
Thanks again for the report

Free will: brain activity

by David Turell @, Tuesday, June 10, 2014, 17:17 (3819 days ago) @ GateKeeper


> GK: or action potential misunderstandings. Maybe even input through the body processing "anticipated" actions. Or "anticipation" is the changes in action potentials they are seeing, not the choice per say. -
Exactly the way I view it. There must be gear-up time in the brain before action

Free will: new neurologic studies

by David Turell @, Tuesday, June 24, 2014, 23:53 (3805 days ago) @ David Turell

There is a network of initiating neurons and acting neurons being studies locally in the brain during surgery:-http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/528136/searching-for-the-free-will-neuron/

Free will: new neurologic studies

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Wednesday, June 25, 2014, 11:20 (3804 days ago) @ David Turell

Is it just me, or is the very idea of them coming up with 'therapies' to 'correct' your free will just a little bloody scary. The potential for abuse is... unfathomable, really. Combined with what is going on in the world today, it makes me think of the Orwellian dystopic futures.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Free will: new neurologic studies

by GateKeeper @, Wednesday, June 25, 2014, 14:24 (3804 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Is it just me, or is the very idea of them coming up with 'therapies' to 'correct' your free will just a little bloody scary. The potential for abuse is... unfathomable, really. Combined with what is going on in the world today, it makes me think of the Orwellian dystopic futures.-don't be afraid. Lions eat babies. That's a clue. The transition time from "now" to what "you" want us to be is, shall I say, a tad awkward. -It is what it is. Why I like romansh is that he makes it clear to guys like me to SLOW THE HECK DOWN!!!!!! or remove the "pain".

Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science

by David Turell @, Saturday, October 18, 2014, 01:34 (3690 days ago) @ GateKeeper

In a review of a book, "Why Science Hasn't Disproved Free Will, philosopher Alfred Mele, Dennett agrees that free will is not disproven buy current reductionist studies.-http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/are-we-free-"Mele provides accurate, jargon-free accounts of the experiments and what they do and don't show. And in each case he locates what, in my opinion, are the most fundamental flaws in the reasoning by those scientists."-"these scientists have not come close to demonstrating that free will, in either sense, is an illusion. Their ingenious experiments, while yielding some surprising results, don't have the revolutionary implications often claimed.
 
"Mele is not the first philosopher to reach this dismissive verdict, but it may well be that his tactical neutrality on the issue of compatibilism will win him the support of the vast majority of philosophers who have thought hard about free will: we philosophers disagree vehemently about whether compatibilist free will is the only kind of free will worth wanting (as I, for one, have argued for many years), but we agree with Mele that the scientists have jumped to unwarranted conclusions, for the reasons he presents so calmly and clearly in this little book."-
I wonder what commenter Romansh would say?

Free will: Sci Am survey

by David Turell @, Friday, January 16, 2015, 00:10 (3600 days ago) @ David Turell

What their readers think:-http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/2015/01/15/site-survey-shows-60-percent-think-free-will-exists-read-why/-
"The results are now in. In agreement with Nahmias, most of the 4,672 responses registered from Dec 20th through Jan. 14th gave a thumbs up to free will. Specifically, the breakdown has 59 percent endorsing the idea that free will exists and 41 percent voting nay.:

Free will: Sci Am survey

by romansh ⌂ @, Friday, January 16, 2015, 01:54 (3600 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by romansh, Friday, January 16, 2015, 02:02

What surprises me is that 41% of the population actually has an intelligent and sophisticated awareness around the problem of free will. While the remaining 59% has some room to improve their understanding. I am also sure the 41% are good looking and smell nice too.-But seriously - I am surprised that the number of non believers is so high. The last number I remember seeing was amongst philosophers and was nearer 16%.-But to be fair the majority believed in compatibilist free will ... which really should not count.

Free will: Sci Am survey

by David Turell @, Friday, January 16, 2015, 05:00 (3600 days ago) @ romansh


> Rom: But seriously - I am surprised that the number of non believers is so high. The last number I remember seeing was amongst philosophers and was nearer 16%.
> 
> But to be fair the majority believed in compatibilist free will ... which really should not count.-I don't have much of a philosophic background, and I know you favor strict definitions, but all I accept is that despite the constraints of the function of neurons, I fell I can make free will decisions all the time. I am not a determinist by any stretch. I think Libet's original findings have been overturned. I assume then I am sort of a compatibilist, and actually I really don't care. I am so simplistic as to go by what I feel I experience.

Free will: Sci Am survey

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Friday, January 16, 2015, 15:41 (3599 days ago) @ David Turell

How does a survey on free will work? I mean, even if you say that you believe in free will, non-believers will simply say that you are pre-programmed to answer that way, thus proving that you have no free will. Of course, I think science is proving the nay-sayers wrong more and more, but only time will tell.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Free will: Sci Am survey

by romansh ⌂ @, Friday, January 16, 2015, 20:03 (3599 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
edited by romansh, Friday, January 16, 2015, 20:19

I think science is proving the nay-sayers wrong more and more, but only time will tell.-Let me get this straight ... 
1) Are you claiming a fully deterministic process of science can be used to 'prove' or disprove free will (and it is doing so)?
2) This would put you firmly in the compatibilist camp would it not? -The first position just does not make sense to me and the second is a semantic argument.

Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science

by romansh ⌂ @, Friday, January 16, 2015, 18:51 (3599 days ago) @ David Turell

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/dan-dennett-misguided-about-free-wi... think this is a good review of the Dennett saga. I would disagree with a few words and phrases that Coyne uses ... but I could use his arguments to fit my own.-And this is a useful link to check periodically as to the free will thoughts of Jerry Coyne.
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/category/free-will/

Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 17, 2015, 00:59 (3599 days ago) @ romansh

Rom:-> https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/dan-dennett-misguided-about-free-wi... I think this is a good review of the Dennett saga. I would disagree with a few words and phrases that Coyne uses ... but I could use his arguments to fit my own.
> 
> And this is a useful link to check periodically as to the free will thoughts of Jerry Coyne.
> https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/category/free-will/-I can accept this from Coyne:-"My own definition of free will is a traditional notion, one expressed by molecular biologist Anthony Cashmore:-
"Free will is defined as a belief that there is a component to biological behavior that is something more than the unavoidable consequences of the genetic and environmental history of the individual and the possible stochastic laws of nature.-"This is what is commonly called “dualistic” or “contracausal” free will, in which people can somehow, by processes that bypass physical strictures, change their behaviors and choices."

Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, January 17, 2015, 17:25 (3598 days ago) @ David Turell

I can accept this from Coyne:
>> Anthony Cashmore:
>> "Free will is defined as a belief that there is a component to biological behavior that is something more than the unavoidable consequences of the genetic and environmental history of the individual and the possible stochastic laws of nature.-Funnily enough when I first discussed free will on this forum, people on insisted that we had consciousness in the definition.-Either way by Cashmore's definition do you think we have free will?

Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 17, 2015, 21:38 (3598 days ago) @ romansh

David I can accept this from Coyne:
> >> Anthony Cashmore:
> >> "Free will is defined as a belief that there is a component to biological behavior that is something more than the unavoidable consequences of the genetic and environmental history of the individual and the possible stochastic laws of nature.
> 
> Rom: Funnily enough when I first discussed free will on this forum, people on insisted that we had consciousness in the definition.
> 
> Either way by Cashmore's definition do you think we have free will?-Yes, because the statement clearly implies I can willfully override any automatic genetic or environmental issues, in fact any other influences. Do you interpret it differently?

Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, January 18, 2015, 01:34 (3598 days ago) @ David Turell

Anthony Cashmore:
> > >> "Free will is defined as a belief that there is a component to biological behavior that is something more than the unavoidable consequences of the genetic and environmental history of the individual and the possible stochastic laws of nature.
> 
> Yes, because the statement clearly implies I can willfully override any automatic genetic or environmental issues, in fact any other influences. Do you interpret it differently?
I must I don't read willfully into the definition. Are you suggesting willfulness is simply a result of the biochemical physics that is going on in our brains?

Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 18, 2015, 05:50 (3597 days ago) @ romansh

David: Yes, because the statement clearly implies I can willfully override any automatic genetic or environmental issues, in fact any other influences. Do you interpret it differently?-> Rom: I must I don't read willfully into the definition. Are you suggesting willfulness is simply a result of the biochemical physics that is going on in our brains?-Obviously, I read it from my viewpoint. To your question, no, 'willfulness' is my control over my thoughts which I control in my brain. Thus I can override underlying biochemical influences, if there are any, which I strongly doubt. I'll bet you do the same thing.

Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, January 18, 2015, 16:11 (3597 days ago) @ David Turell

David: Yes, because the statement clearly implies I can willfully override any automatic genetic or environmental issues, in fact any other influences. Do you interpret it differently?
> 
> > Rom: I must I don't read willfully into the definition. Are you suggesting willfulness is simply a result of the biochemical physics that is going on in our brains?
> 
> David: To your question, no, 'willfulness' is my control over my thoughts which I control in my brain. Thus I can override underlying biochemical influences, if there are any, which I strongly doubt. I'll bet you do the same thing.-So your reasoning for free will becomes, we have free will because we have wills?-So to answer your bet ... any will I do have is firmly rooted in my biochemistry, so it is one bit of biochemistry "overriding" another.

Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 18, 2015, 19:38 (3597 days ago) @ romansh


> Rom: So your reasoning for free will becomes, we have free will because we have wills?
> 
> So to answer your bet ... any will I do have is firmly rooted in my biochemistry, so it is one bit of biochemistry "overriding" another.-I agree. I feel we can will what we wish. And I'm sure I control my biochemistry in the brain to create thoughts and wishes which I want. Obviously my brain is a much different type of computer than the one I am typing on. I know about brain-given patterns, faces in clouds, etc., but those are helpful and not harmful. They are shortcuts the brain gives us.

Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, January 18, 2015, 21:16 (3597 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by romansh, Sunday, January 18, 2015, 21:31

David: I agree. I feel we can will what we wish. 
there is a problem of recursion here ... 
Galen Strawson does a good job explaining it here:
http://www.naturalism.org/strawson_interview.htm-> And I'm sure I control my biochemistry in the brain to create thoughts and wishes which I want. Obviously my brain is a much different type of computer than the one I am typing on. I know about brain-given patterns, faces in clouds, etc., but those are helpful and not harmful. They are shortcuts the brain gives us.-"I" control my biochemistry? Well I do self medicate with a glass of red wine now and then.-But I would argue it is my biochemistry controlling my biochemistry and the "I" we might perceive is a little misleading.-Ultimately we end up saying biochemistry has a will, if we go down this track.

Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science

by David Turell @, Monday, January 19, 2015, 00:36 (3597 days ago) @ romansh

Rom: "I" control my biochemistry? Well I do self medicate with a glass of red wine now and then.
> 
> But I would argue it is my biochemistry controlling my biochemistry and the "I" we might perceive is a little misleading.
> 
> Ultimately we end up saying biochemistry has a will, if we go down this track.-On the other hand I take just an opposite view. My biochemistry works for me. Yes, the brain works by offering patterns, as an example, but I won't back down from my view that I control me.

Free Will: Neuron cell division

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 25, 2015, 16:05 (3590 days ago) @ David Turell

What is not frequently mentioned in discussion of free will is the fact that the brain neurons, just like most other cells in the human body and constantly dividing and reproducing themselves. Yet our personalities, our consciousness and our sense of free will grows from childhood and through adulthood in a cohesive and constant fashion and our sense of 'self' remains constant and unchanging. Our personalities are never discontinuous or altered despite the underlying turnover of neurons. We are using a biologic computer that constantly gives us the same resulting consciousness unless altered by drugs or injury. This means to me we have free will. As this article shows we Develop all of this from birth.-"Through asymmetric division, neural stem cells, which are the brain's growth points, grow into two different daughter cells: a new neural stem cell and a nerve cell. Because of the very large number of differentiating neural stem cells, the brain can play an important role as an organ (the neuron network structure) - namely, the continuous creation of an individual's personality by means of the constant differentiation of neural stem cells into nerve cells, in combination with information gleaned from the outside environment and accumulated memories. Once these nerve cells have finished their duties, the glial cells are left as memories. In the meantime, the next group of neural stem cells begins to differentiate; thus the neuron network is constantly updated and the brain keeps developing"-http://hplusmagazine.com/2015/01/21/mind-arise-brain/-Does Rom have a comment?

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by David Turell @, Thursday, February 12, 2015, 15:42 (3572 days ago) @ David Turell

A radio receiver illusion:-https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/social-brain-social-mind/201203/free-will-weighing-truth-and-experience-"I am a neuroscientist and so 99% of the time I behave like a materialist, acknowledging that the mind is real but fully dependent on the brain. But we don't actually know this. We really don't. We assume our sense of will is a causal result of the neurochemical processes in our brain, but this is a leap of faith. Perhaps the brain is something like a complex radio receiver that integrates consciousness signals that float around in some form. Perhaps one part of visual cortex is important for decoding the bandwidth that contains motion consciousness and another part of the brain is critical to decoding the bandwith that contains our will. So damage to brain regions may alter our ability to express certain kinds of conscious experience rather than being the causal source of consciousness itself.-"I don't actually believe the radio metaphor of the brain, but I think something like it could account for all of our findings. Its unfalsifiable which is a big no-no in science. But so is the materialist view—its also unfalsifiable. We simply don't know how to reverse engineer consciousness. Saying that the complexity of the brain explains why we are conscious is just an article of faith—it doesn't explain anything. We don't know why our brains are associated with conscious experience and nothing else in the universe besides brains seems to be. Maybe rocks have consciousness but no way of showing this. I don't believe this—but again, I can't prove its false.-"If we acknowledge just how much we don't know about the conscious mind, perhaps we would be a bit more humble. We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn't exist, but I don't really know that. Either way, it doesn't matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good. So we will go on acting like free willing creatures no matter what. Its what we're built to do."-Hurray!-Romansh?

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by dhw, Friday, February 13, 2015, 14:02 (3571 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: A radio receiver illusion:-https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/social-brain-social-mind/201203/free-will-weighing-truth-and-experience
 
QUOTE: "I am a neuroscientist and so 99% of the time I behave like a materialist, acknowledging that the mind is real but fully dependent on the brain. But we don't actually know this. We really don't. We assume our sense of will is a causal result of the neurochemical processes in our brain, but this is a leap of faith. Perhaps the brain is something like a complex radio receiver that integrates consciousness signals that float around in some form..." -
What a stimulating post! He covers just about every point we've discussed ourselves, but I find it very reassuring when scientists in a particular field are prepared to challenge what elsewhere you have described as the “currently accepted” view. The Big Bang, the automaton cell, the non-existence of time, materialistic consciousness...take nothing for granted. What comes up today may well go down tomorrow.

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by David Turell @, Friday, February 13, 2015, 18:01 (3571 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: A radio receiver illusion:
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/social-brain-social-mind/201203/free-will-weighing... 
> 
> dhw: What a stimulating post! He covers just about every point we've discussed ourselves, but I find it very reassuring when scientists in a particular field are prepared to challenge what elsewhere you have described as the “currently accepted” view. -Looking for this type of comment is like panning for gold.

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Sunday, February 15, 2015, 18:24 (3569 days ago) @ David Turell

I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this link on the is-ought debate:
but you may find it interesting-https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/on-being-right-about-right-and-wrong-I like his arguments that homicide and violence are public health issues, 
and that witch-burning was not immoral but simply mistaken.

--
GPJ

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by David Turell @, Sunday, February 15, 2015, 18:43 (3569 days ago) @ George Jelliss

George: I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this link on the is-ought debate:
> 
> 
> https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/on-being-right-about-right-and-wrong
&#... 
> I like his arguments that homicide and violence are public health issues, 
> and that witch-burning was not immoral but simply mistaken.-Excellent piece. I don't care which link it is in. it doesn't prove or disprove free will but it does speak to moral thought and individual rights:-"When I talk about a moral arc of progress, I mean an improvement in the survival and flourishing of individual sentient beings. I emphasize the individual for four reasons: (1) Natural selection operates on individual organisms, not groups (see Steven Pinker's dismantling of group selection arguments here.). (2) It is the individual who is the primary moral agent—not the group, tribe, race, gender, state, nation, empire, society, or any other collective—because it is the individual who survives and flourishes, or who suffers and dies. It is individual sentient beings who perceive, emote, respond, love, feel, and suffer—not populations, races, genders, groups, or nations. (3) Historically, immoral abuses have been most rampant, and body counts have run the highest, when the individual is sacrificed for the good of the group. It happens when people are judged by the color of their skin—or by their X/Y chromosomes, or by whom they prefer to sleep with, or by what accent they speak with, or by which political or religious group they belong to, or by any other trait our species has chosen to differentiate among members—instead of by the content of their individual character. (4) The rights revolutions of the past two centuries have focused almost entirely on the freedom and autonomy of individuals, not collectives—on the rights of persons, not groups. Individuals vote, not races or genders. Individuals want to be treated equally, not races. Rights protect individuals, not groups; in fact, most rights (such as those enumerated in the Bill of Rights) protect individuals from being discriminated against as members of a group, such as by race, creed, color, gender, or—soon—sexual orientation and gender preference."

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by dhw, Monday, February 16, 2015, 19:40 (3568 days ago) @ David Turell

GEORGE: I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this link on the is-ought debate:
but you may find it interesting-https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/on-being-right-about-right-and-wrong-I like his arguments that homicide and violence are public health issues, 
and that witch-burning was not immoral but simply mistaken.-DAVID: Excellent piece. I don't care which link it is in. it doesn't prove or disprove free will but it does speak to moral thought and individual rights.-It certainly is excellent. The section on individual rights that David has quoted is great, but I was also struck by the paragraphs that preceded it. Please note the definition of sentience and the fact that prominent cognitive neuroscientists consider these attributes to be a common characteristic across species, including all organisms on this planet, and to provide continuity between humans and non-human animals.
 
Shermer: The criterion I use—inspired by your starting point in The Moral Landscape of “the well-being of conscious creatures”—is “the survival and flourishing of sentient beings.” By survival I mean the instinct to live, and by flourishing I mean having adequate sustenance, safety, shelter, bonding, and social relations for physical and mental health. I am trying to make an evolutionary/biological case for starting here by arguing that any organism subject to natural selection—which includes all organisms on this planet and most likely on any other planet as well—will by necessity have this drive to survive and flourish. If it didn't, it would not live long enough to reproduce and would therefore not be subject to natural selection.-By sentient I mean emotive, perceptive, sensitive, responsive, conscious, and therefore able to feel and to suffer. Here I'm following the argument made by Jeremy Bentham with regard to animals: It isn't their intelligence, language, tool use, or reasoning power that should elicit our moral concerns, but their capacity to feel and suffer. To this I add the recent Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness—issued by an international group of prominent cognitive neuroscientists, neuropharmacologists, neuroanatomists, and computational neuroscientists—that there is continuity between humans and non-human animals, and that sentience is the common characteristic across species. [MY BOLD]-I am beginning to wonder whether my autonomous sentient conscious organisms- as opposed to David's automatons - may not in fact represent the current majority opinion after all.

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by David Turell @, Monday, February 16, 2015, 21:23 (3568 days ago) @ dhw

Shermer, dhw: By sentient I mean emotive, perceptive, sensitive, responsive, conscious, and therefore able to feel and to suffer. Here I'm following the argument made by Jeremy Bentham with regard to animals: It isn't their intelligence, language, tool use, or reasoning power that should elicit our moral concerns, but their capacity to feel and suffer. To this I add the recent Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness—issued by an international group of prominent cognitive neuroscientists, neuropharmacologists, neuroanatomists, and computational neuroscientists—that there is continuity between humans and non-human animals, and that sentience is the common characteristic across species. [/i][MY BOLD]
> 
> dhw: I am beginning to wonder whether my autonomous sentient conscious organisms- as opposed to David's automatons - may not in fact represent the current majority opinion after all.-It still depends on how you define the limits of sentience in single-celled animals.

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by dhw, Tuesday, February 17, 2015, 21:38 (3567 days ago) @ David Turell

SHERMER: By sentient I mean emotive, perceptive, sensitive, responsive, conscious, and therefore able to feel and to suffer. Here I'm following the argument made by Jeremy Bentham with regard to animals: It isn't their intelligence, language, tool use, or reasoning power that should elicit our moral concerns, but their capacity to feel and suffer. To this I add the recent Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness—issued by an international group of prominent cognitive neuroscientists, neuropharmacologists, neuroanatomists, and computational neuroscientists—that there is continuity between humans and non-human animals, and that sentience is the common characteristic across species. -Dhw: I am beginning to wonder whether my autonomous sentient organisms- as opposed to your automatons - may not in fact represent the current majority opinion after all.-DAVID: It still depends on how you define the limits of sentience in single-celled animals.-What depends? Shermer attributes sentience to every organism on this planet, and all the scientists I have referred to say that single cells are sentient. Evolution depends on single cells combining to form multicellular organisms. Are you now arguing that single cells are automatons but you accept that the moment they combine they become sentient, i.e. emotive, perceptive, conscious etc.? On the squid thread, you wrote that you look at the IM hypothesis and then “revert to the idea that much of the progress of evolution is preprogrammed. It is easiest to stop at ‘God did it'.” It's equally easy for an atheist to stop at “Chance did it” - but then of course you'd jump on him and ask how. Perhaps easiest of all is to stop even thinking about these matters, but wouldn't that go against the grain?

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by David Turell @, Wednesday, February 18, 2015, 02:06 (3567 days ago) @ dhw


> DAVID: It still depends on how you define the limits of sentience in single-celled animals.
> 
> dhw:What depends? Shermer attributes sentience to every organism on this planet, and all the scientists I have referred to say that single cells are sentient. Evolution depends on single cells combining to form multicellular organisms. -No, I view single cells as having automatic responses to stimuli. This is all done though a series of modulated molecular reactions. Note there is no thinking involved, so the use of the word sentient is a major stretch of the meaning of sentient. Are these cells sentient? Only if one views automatic molecular reactions to stimuli as sentience. And that is what your favorite authors imply. And that is fine. I can accept that stretch of meaning if it is fully understood what the stretch is. The key is the word in your second sentence, 'multicellular'. When multicellular organisms develop a nervous system, there is a major change in how those animals can now perceive their outer world and environment. Now true sentience is present, and their responses to stimuli can be more complexly orchestrated, and they are. Note that the development of nerve cells with their special ionization processes to produce electric current over nerve fibers is an evolutionary advance which I view as almost as great a jump as the Cambrian animals themselves. Those organisms were fully dependent on the availability of the nervous system. Perhaps now you will fully understand how I view the word sentient. -From the Oxford Dictionary:
"Definition of sentient in English:
 
adjective-Able to perceive or feel things:"-And perhaps in error, I've included 'responsiveness' in my view of the word 'sentient'. The single cells show their sentience by the automatic responses they exhibit. True. The responses are automatic, without question. So how far to stretch the word which at the advanced animal level implies thoughtful responsiveness? -You are the wordsmith. So what does use of the word really tell us? Is every organism sentient? Yes, if one sticks to the strict limits of the dictionary definition. So what can you philosophize from that. Very little. Everything living can sense its outside world. It has to for survival as Shermer notes. Does this support panpsychism? Not in my view. The full meaning of the word sentient leads nowhere. And I think we have discussed this over and over, because everyone, especially including me, has shaded the meaning of the word to contain much more than it can ever imply.

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by dhw, Wednesday, February 18, 2015, 19:26 (3566 days ago) @ David Turell

Dhw: Shermer, like all the scientists I have been referring to, incorporates all organisms on this planet. Evolution depends on single cells combining to form multicellular organisms. Are you now arguing that single cells are automatons but you accept that the moment they combine they become sentient. i.e. emotive, perceptive, conscious etc.? [...]-DAVID: No, I view single cells as having automatic responses to stimuli. This is all done though a series of modulated molecular reactions. Note there is no thinking involved, so the use of the word sentient is a major stretch of the meaning of sentient. Are these cells sentient? Only if one views automatic molecular reactions to stimuli as sentience. And that is what your favorite authors imply. [...]
From the Oxford Dictionary:"Definition of sentient in English: adjective
Able to perceive or feel things:"
And perhaps in error, I've included 'responsiveness' in my view of the word 'sentient'. The single cells show their sentience by the automatic responses they exhibit. True. The responses are automatic, without question. So how far to stretch the word which at the advanced animal level implies thoughtful responsiveness? 
[...] Is every organism sentient? Yes, if one sticks to the strict limits of the dictionary definition. So what can you philosophize from that. Very little. Everything living can sense its outside world. It has to for survival as Shermer notes. Does this support panpsychism? Not in my view. The full meaning of the word sentient leads nowhere. ...-You are seizing on the word “sentient”, but Shermer and the scientists I keep referring to apparently don't agree with you. Shermer has given us a list of adjectives to explain what he means: “By sentient I mean emotive, perceptive, sensitive, responsive, conscious, and therefore able to feel and to suffer.” Margulis, McClintock. Albrecht-Buehler and others also use terms like intelligent, cognitive, cooperative, communicative, decision-making to describe single-celled organisms. These do not “imply” automatism. They imply thought. Your insistence that “the responses are automatic without question” seems to me misleading. Many of our own responses are automatic, but this does not preclude the existence of a mechanism that is NOT automatic - i.e. that deliberately processes the information automatically collected by the senses or their equivalent.-Of course you are free to reject the findings of “my favourite authors” and those of all the specialists who put their names to the Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness, but please don't make out that they don't regard consciousness as an attribute of sentience. In terms of an inventive mechanism, the above list does not lead nowhere. It paves the way for potential inventiveness, from single cells through to every living organism. I agree that evolution proper begins with multicellularity (otherwise life would have been confined to bacteria), and as you point out later, multicellularity by definition entails greater complexity. But my “favourite scientists” did not argue that bacteria had the complex intelligence of humans or of the so-called higher animals. There are different forms and degrees of intelligence and consciousness.
 
 As for panpsychism, I remain hesitant to attribute any form of consciousness to inorganic materials, but it seems to me that the case for living organisms gets stronger by the day.

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by David Turell @, Wednesday, February 18, 2015, 20:18 (3566 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Wednesday, February 18, 2015, 20:40


> dhw: You are seizing on the word “sentient”, but Shermer and the scientists I keep referring to apparently don't agree with you. Shermer has given us a list of adjectives to explain what he means: “By sentient I mean emotive, perceptive, sensitive, responsive, conscious, and therefore able to feel and to suffer.” Margulis, McClintock. Albrecht-Buehler and others also use terms like intelligent, cognitive, cooperative, communicative, decision-making to describe single-celled organisms. These do not “imply” automatism. They imply thought. Your insistence that “the responses are automatic without question” seems to me misleading.-I am not trying to be misleading. I absolutely consider my viewpoint correct.
> 
> dhw: Of course you are free to reject the findings of “my favourite authors” and those of all the specialists who put their names to the Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness, but please don't make out that they don't regard consciousness as an attribute of sentience.-No, I understand that they have conflated the word sentient with some degree of consciousness. I simply don't accept it. -> dhw: There are different forms and degrees of intelligence and consciousness.-For me, not at the single cell level.
> 
> dhw: As for panpsychism, I remain hesitant to attribute any form of consciousness to inorganic materials, but it seems to me that the case for living organisms gets stronger by the day.-Remember, I'm with Sheldrake. There is species consciousness as part of universal consciousness. That is sort of a panpsychist approach.-To clarify my thinking I've gone back to Shapiro's book: Evolution. In part one he describes cellular sensing signaling and decision making. All of it is done by a series of molecular reactions which brings information back to the genome and then 
DNA sends back signals through molecular reactions to mediate the appropriate response. The information coded into the DNA is under total control of the process. The molecules themselves do not react automatically but they follow DNA instructions at all times. He never uses the word sentient. It is not in his index. This is why I constantly refer to the source of the DNA information. It cannot have developed by chance. Basically he is saying DNA is the sentient brain you are looking for, but it is a coded automatic system of information. It is an 'if, and ,or' computerized response system. He explains how E. coli finds food with molecular reactions. It reacts appropriate to what is presented to it. Your computer does not have an original thought and neither does an E coli. Get a copy of the book and see.

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by dhw, Thursday, February 19, 2015, 18:03 (3565 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Your insistence that “the responses are automatic without question” seems to me misleading.
DAVID: I am not trying to be misleading. I absolutely consider my viewpoint correct.-Sorry, that was not meant as an accusation! You missed out my explanation: “Many of our own responses are automatic, but this does not preclude the existence of a mechanism that is NOT automatic - i.e. that deliberately processes the information automatically collected by the senses or their equivalent.” You focus on physical processes, but as with human thought, the physical manifestations are all we can observe. We don't know how they cause or link up with thought.-dhw: Of course you are free to reject the findings of “my favourite authors” and those of all the specialists who put their names to the Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness, but please don't make out that they don't regard consciousness as an attribute of sentience.
DAVID: No, I understand that they have conflated the word sentient with some degree of consciousness. I simply don't accept it. -Fair enough, but I hope you will understand that for a layman like myself it is impossible to accept your word against theirs.-dhw: There are different forms and degrees of intelligence and consciousness.
DAVID: For me, not at the single cell level.-It doesn't matter much for the big picture of how evolution may have worked. As we agreed before, evolution proper began with multicellularity, and if you accept that multicellular organisms are sentient, emotive, perceptive, sensitive, responsive, conscious, intelligent, cognitive, cooperative, communicative, decision-making beings, you are well on the way to accepting the possibility of an autonomous inventive mechanism.-DAVID: To clarify my thinking I've gone back to Shapiro's book: Evolution. In part one he describes cellular sensing signaling and decision making. All of it is done by a series of molecular reactions which brings information back to the genome and then DNA sends back signals through molecular reactions to mediate the appropriate response. The information coded into the DNA is under total control of the process. The molecules themselves do not react automatically but they follow DNA instructions at all times. He never uses the word sentient. [...] He explains how E. coli finds food with molecular reactions. It reacts appropriate to what is presented to it. Your computer does not have an original thought and neither does an E coli.
 
All living beings try to react appropriately (= adapt) to what is presented to them, or they won't survive. Nobody knows, though, how innovation works. The E. coli's intelligent response to its surroundings may give us a clue: the mechanism for adaptation might, under certain conditions and through certain individuals have engineered innovation. (If we accept common descent, innovation must always take place within existing individuals.) See above for the problem of observing thought. -On the subject of single-celled organisms and sentience, please read the following statements by Shapiro:-•	Bacteria are small but not stupid:-http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.371.1320&rep=rep1&type=pdf-QUOTE: “40 years experience as a bacterial geneticist have taught me that bacteria possess many cognitive, computational and evolutionary capabilities unimaginable in the first six decades of the 20th Century. Analysis of cellular processes such as metabolism, regulation of protein synthesis, and DNA repair established that bacteria continually monitor their external and internal environments and compute functional outputs based on information provided by their sensory apparatus. [...] Examination of colony development and organization led me to appreciate how extensive multicellular collaboration is among the majority of bacterial species. Contemporary research in many laboratories on cell-cell signaling, symbiosis and pathogenesis show that bacteria utilize sophisticated mechanisms for intercellular communication and even have the ability to commandeer the basic cell biology of “higher” plants and animals to meet their own needs. This remarkable series of observations requires us to revise basic ideas about biological information processing and recognize that even the smallest cells are sentient beings.” [My bold]-
Quote: “My own view is that we are witnessing a major paradigm shift in the life sciences in the sense that Kuhn (1962) described that process. [...] Informatics rather than mechanics is now the key to explaining cell biology and cell activities. Bacteria are full participants in this paradigm shift, and the recognition of sophisticated information processing capacities in prokaryotic cells represents another step away from the anthropocentric view of the universe that dominated pre-scientific thinking. Not only are we no longer at the physical center of the universe; our status as the only sentient beings on the planet is dissolving as we learn more about how smart even the smallest living cells can be. [My bold]-You may recall that in the discussion under “Bacterial Intelligence”, although he found the question hard to answer, he concluded: “...if that isn't self awareness I don't know what is.” And if that isn't an argument for autonomous intelligence, I don't know what is.

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by David Turell @, Thursday, February 19, 2015, 19:53 (3565 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: It doesn't matter much for the big picture of how evolution may have worked. As we agreed before, evolution proper began with multicellularity, and if you accept that multicellular organisms are sentient, emotive, perceptive, sensitive, responsive, conscious, intelligent, cognitive, cooperative, communicative, decision-making beings, you are well on the way to accepting the possibility of an autonomous inventive mechanism.-I've said before some form of IM may well be present. I have no problem with the concept.-> David: The information coded into the DNA is under total control of the process. The molecules themselves do not react automatically but they follow DNA instructions at all times. He never uses the word sentient. [...] He explains how E. coli finds food with molecular reactions. It reacts appropriate to what is presented to it. Your computer does not have an original thought and neither does an E coli[/i].
 
> 
> dhw: On the subject of single-celled organisms and sentience, please read the following statements by Shapiro:
> 
> •	Bacteria are small but not stupid:
> 
> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.371.1320&rep=rep1&type... 
> QUOTE: “40 years experience as a bacterial geneticist have taught me that bacteria possess many cognitive, computational and evolutionary capabilities unimaginable in the first six decades of the 20th Century. Analysis of cellular processes such as metabolism, regulation of protein synthesis, and DNA repair established that bacteria continually monitor their external and internal environments and compute functional outputs based on information provided by their sensory apparatus. [...] Examination of colony development and organization led me to appreciate how extensive multicellular collaboration is among the majority of bacterial species. Contemporary research in many laboratories on cell-cell signaling, symbiosis and pathogenesis show that bacteria utilize sophisticated mechanisms for intercellular communication and even have the ability to commandeer the basic cell biology of “higher” plants and animals to meet their own needs. This remarkable series of observations requires us to revise basic ideas about biological information processing and recognize that even the smallest cells are sentient beings.” [My bold]
> 
> 
> Quote: “My own view is that we are witnessing a major paradigm shift in the life sciences in the sense that Kuhn (1962) described that process. [...] Informatics rather than mechanics is now the key to explaining cell biology and cell activities. Bacteria are full participants in this paradigm shift, and the recognition of sophisticated information processing capacities in prokaryotic cells represents another step away from the anthropocentric view of the universe that dominated pre-scientific thinking. Not only are we no longer at the physical center of the universe; our status as the only sentient beings on the planet is dissolving as we learn more about how smart even the smallest living cells can be. [My bold]
> 
> dhw: You may recall that in the discussion under “Bacterial Intelligence”, although he found the question hard to answer, he concluded: “...if that isn't self awareness I don't know what is.” And if that isn't an argument for autonomous intelligence, I don't know what is.-I've left your quotes intact. I've read them before and in his book. They are important to re-read in the context of my interpretation. The bacteria are acting intelligently because their molecular sensory reactions carry messages to their DNA. In the DNA there are informatory instructions as to how to react to various stimuli. As Shapiro states, the molecules are not automatons (direct quote from the book), but the responding next set of molecules perform reactions under the instruction of the DNA to provide the proper response to each given stimulus. In my view this entire mechanism is an automatic coded responsiveness follow the information coded into DNA. And in evolution it can be seen in my kidney cells which function autonomously and automatically to make urine and keep my body salts in balance. This type of control started with the first bacteria, and was passed on multicellular organisms so each organ system could conduct its business without its owner worrying about it. This independent functional system had to start and be fully developed at the bacterial stage of evolution. It protects bacteria from any problems and challenges in its environment, and sets the stage for multicellularity. In summary, bacteria know what to do because they have been told what to do. There is no way that bacteria could have invented this information before the first primordial cells began. Hunt and peck would only lead to lifeless attempts. -As for bacterial autonomous invention, as you know, that must be done within bacterial DNA. I'm back to recognizing the original information in DNA, trying to answer the question about the source of that information and the further question of the source of added information for evolution to occur. Chance won't work. I'm back to God. You want a third way. If it is there it also must be God-given IMHO.

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by dhw, Friday, February 20, 2015, 12:33 (3564 days ago) @ David Turell

Shapiro has stated categorically that bacteria are sentient beings. Shermer defines sentient as emotive, perceptive, sensitive, responsive, conscious and therefore able to feel and to suffer. My thanks to David for his detailed analysis of how bacteria respond. I shan't reproduce the quote in full, because the summary shows the crossed wires in this discussion: -DAVID: In summary, bacteria know what to do because they have been told what to do. There is no way that bacteria could have invented this information before the first primordial cells began. Hunt and peck would only lead to lifeless attempts. -As for bacterial autonomous invention, as you know, that must be done within bacterial DNA. I'm back to recognizing the original information in DNA, trying to answer the question about the source of that information and the further question of the source of added information for evolution to occur. Chance won't work. I'm back to God. You want a third way. If it is there it also must be God-given IMHO.
-There are different hypotheses to explain evolutionary innovation, but nobody knows the truth. Darwin opted for random mutations, whereas you favour divine preprogramming and/or dabbling. We have now spent long hours discussing the possibility that organisms are possessed of an autonomous inventive mechanism, and you have said that "some form of the IM may well be present. I have no problem with the concept". However, the hypothesis depends entirely on individual organisms having some kind of conscious intelligence that will enable them to change their own form, and you continue to challenge this part of the concept. The findings of Shapiro and many other experts in the field concerning the sentience of even the smallest organisms seem to me to provide a rational basis for it. (There is of course no direct evidence for ANY of the hypotheses.) The mechanism for evolutionary innovation is what I am hypothesizing about, and not the source. And so if you are now prepared to acknowledge that sentient organisms (as defined above) possessed of an autonomous inventive mechanism may be the key to solving the mystery of evolutionary innovation, I am of course happy to go along with the possibility that the source of that mechanism may be your God. What you call the “third way”, as an alternative to God and chance, is a different subject.

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by David Turell @, Friday, February 20, 2015, 14:36 (3564 days ago) @ dhw

Shapiro has stated categorically that bacteria are sentient beings. Shermer defines sentient as emotive, perceptive, sensitive, responsive, conscious and therefore able to feel and to suffer. My thanks to David for his detailed analysis of how bacteria respond. I shan't reproduce the quote in full, because the summary shows the crossed wires in this discussion: -Using a 'crossed wires' comment won't let you escape from an obvious avoidance of my viewpoint. Repeating Shapiro (scientist) and Shermer (non-scientist) quotes also avoids recognizing my contention. No one can differentiate looking at bacteria from the outside ( as we do) whether they are truly sentient (implying independent action) or whether they are automatically acting on intelligent information in their DNA which guides all of their molecular reactions to stimuli. Shapiro's read/write computer comparison to DNA and how life handles it exactly fits my view. I repeat, computers don't develop new ideas or actions.-As for crossed wires, the whole issue of how innovation appears is knotted together
with the concept of information in DNA running the show: supporting life's reactions and its ability to invent. It must be obvious that the information is highly complex, and therefore unlikely to be dependent on chance formation. the issue really is does innovation require the addition of new complex innovation or is that innovative information already present in the existing DNA. You cannot separate these considerations.
> 
> DAVID: In summary, bacteria know what to do because they have been told what to do. There is no way that bacteria could have invented this information before the first primordial cells began. Hunt and peck would only lead to lifeless attempts. 
> 
> As for bacterial autonomous invention, as you know, that must be done within bacterial DNA. I'm back to recognizing the original information in DNA, trying to answer the question about the source of that information and the further question of the source of added information for evolution to occur. Chance won't work. I'm back to God. You want a third way. If it is there it also must be God-given IMHO.
> 
> 
> dhw: There are different hypotheses to explain evolutionary innovation, but nobody knows the truth... However, the hypothesis depends entirely on individual organisms having some kind of conscious intelligence that will enable them to change their own form, and you continue to challenge this part of the concept. The findings of Shapiro and many other experts in the field concerning the sentience of even the smallest organisms seem to me to provide a rational basis for it.-My approach emphasizes information as providing the appearance of sentience, as above. You imply bacteria can think. They don't. -
> dhw: The mechanism for evolutionary innovation is what I am hypothesizing about, and not the source. And so if you are now prepared to acknowledge that sentient organisms (as defined above) possessed of an autonomous inventive mechanism may be the key to solving the mystery of evolutionary innovation, I am of course happy to go along with the possibility that the source of that mechanism may be your God. What you call the “third way”, as an alternative to God and chance, is a different subject.-What you want is what I call the 'third way', sentient bacteria in the same sense as sentient humans.

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by dhw, Saturday, February 21, 2015, 17:52 (3563 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Shapiro has stated categorically that bacteria are sentient beings. Shermer defines sentient as emotive, perceptive, sensitive, responsive, conscious and therefore able to feel and to suffer. 
DAVID: Repeating Shapiro (scientist) and Shermer (non-scientist) quotes also avoids recognizing my contention. No one can differentiate looking at bacteria from the outside ( as we do) whether they are truly sentient (implying independent action) or whether they are automatically acting on intelligent information in their DNA which guides all of their molecular reactions to stimuli. -You are right. Many eminent scientists telling us that bacteria are sentient beings does not prove that they are sentient. But how do you know that what looks sentient is not? A Martian observer studying human beings would have the same problem, and many humans also argue that although we may believe we think our own thoughts and make our own decisions, our thoughts and decisions are actually made for us by factors beyond our control. Perhaps we should keep an open mind.
 
DAVID: ...the issue really is does innovation require the addition of new complex innovation or is that innovative information already present in the existing DNA. You cannot separate these considerations. [...] My approach emphasizes information as providing the appearance of sentience, as above. You imply bacteria can think. They don't.-“Already present” = preprogrammed, which is indeed the issue. Did God preprogramme the wheel and the computer? You grant inventive autonomy to humans because they are sentient, conscious, decision-making beings. My “favourite” scientists claim that other organisms have the same attributes - I have quoted, not implied - but somehow you know they haven't. It is their clear statements that have led to my hypothesis, not the other way round.-dhw: What you call the “third way”, as an alternative to God and chance, is a different subject.
DAVID: What you want is what I call the 'third way', sentient bacteria in the same sense as sentient humans.-Nobody is saying that bacteria, worms, or your dog have the same level or kind of intelligence, sentience, consciousness as humans. We are all different, but as Shapiro (a microbiologist) says in his discussion of bacteria, “our status as the only sentient beings on the planet is dissolving as we learn about how smart even the smallest living cells can be.” I don't "want" it. He says it.-Nobody knows how innovation works or why it isn't happening now. But you have acknowledged the possibility of some kind of inventive mechanism, which would depend on the sentience (conscious, cognitive, communicative etc. faculties.) of individual organisms. We assume that life began with single cells, but evolution proper began when cells combined. Even within your own hypothesis there has to be a borderline between the automatic and the sentient, since you acknowledge sentience in our fellow animals. According to my “favourite” scientists, it goes as far back as bacteria. Would you perhaps be prepared to accept it as from the advent of multicellularity?

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by David Turell @, Saturday, February 21, 2015, 20:09 (3563 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: You are right. Many eminent scientists telling us that bacteria are sentient beings does not prove that they are sentient. But how do you know that what looks sentient is not? A Martian observer studying human beings would have the same problem, and many humans also argue that although we may believe we think our own thoughts and make our own decisions, our thoughts and decisions are actually made for us by factors beyond our control. Perhaps we should keep an open mind.-You've raised the philosophic issue of I can only presume your consciousness is like mine. your color red is like mine. I repeat, bacteria can look sentient if the instructions in DNA are complete enough, but really the bacteria are automatic. That is my view.
> 
> dhw: Even within your own hypothesis there has to be a borderline between the automatic and the sentient, since you acknowledge sentience in our fellow animals. According to my “favourite” scientists, it goes as far back as bacteria. Would you perhaps be prepared to accept it as from the advent of multicellularity?-At the Cambrian level, yes. Reznick's guppies show it.

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 19:41 (3559 days ago) @ dhw

More relating to Shermer's arguments:-https://scientiasalon.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/michael-shermer-and-the-moral-arc-of-libertarianism/-I thought this article by Pigliucci was well written, 
and makes some telling points especially about the historical background.
I still think Harris and Shermer are right about their "realist" ethics, 
but there is always a danger of selection bias 
in trying to find support for an argument.

--
GPJ

Free Will: Excellent discussion

by David Turell @, Thursday, February 26, 2015, 01:31 (3559 days ago) @ George Jelliss

George: More relating to Shermer's arguments:
> 
> https://scientiasalon.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/michael-shermer-and-the-moral-arc-of-lib... 
> I thought this article by Pigliucci was well written, 
> and makes some telling points especially about the historical background.
> I still think Harris and Shermer are right about their "realist" ethics, 
> but there is always a danger of selection bias 
> in trying to find support for an argument.-Thanks. I always enjoy Pigliucci. He doesn't appear to agree with your opinion about realist ethics. I think the IQ increase relates in part to more avenues of communication, more time for mothers to stimulate their children (which increases IQ)or more stimulation at child care centers. As for the passage of centuries, there were some very brilliant ancient Greeks and Romans.

Free Will: Excellent discussion (not)

by romansh ⌂ @, Thursday, February 26, 2015, 08:00 (3558 days ago) @ David Turell

Lieberman It is impossible to take a materialistic view of the universe (i.e. the view that there is nothing but physical material in the world, atoms bouncing off one another [delete in perfectly predictable patterns] and not come to the conclusion that free will is an illusion because your will must ultimately be caused by events in your physical brain which were caused by previous events in your brain, body, environment and so on. It makes no sense to talk about a will that is disconnected from causal chains of biological events.-So the rest of his argument will depend showing existence is somehow not materiel.-> Lieberman I am a neuroscientist and so 99% of the time I behave like a materialist, acknowledging that the mind is real but fully dependent on the brain. But we don't actually know this. We really don't. We assume our sense of will is a causal result of the neurochemical processes in our brain, but this is a leap of faith.-And it is an even bigger "leap of faith" to assume our will is not a result of cause effect. Whether my will is caused by the aggregate of quantum phenomena or a more classical universe it is likely caused. Now, if not, the author is appealing to some philosophical homunculus. If so, it is very much up to the author to provide some evidence for this position.-Now Lieberman claims the materialism is unfalsifiable. In a sense I agree. But then materialism is the bedrock of science. It is the basic axiom that science assumes so it can move forward.-We have debated the necessity of consciousness for free will in the past. I personally think this is where the whole debate comes unstuck. Until you can demonstrate to me that you are actually conscious this aspect is a red herring in the free will debate. Am I conscious now .... one more time.
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Books/Tenzen/question1.htm-I will plough through the replies to this section of the thread.

Free Will: Excellent discussion (not)

by David Turell @, Thursday, February 26, 2015, 14:54 (3558 days ago) @ romansh


> Rom: We have debated the necessity of consciousness for free will in the past. I personally think this is where the whole debate comes unstuck. Until you can demonstrate to me that you are actually conscious this aspect is a red herring in the free will debate. Am I conscious now .... one more time.
> http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Books/Tenzen/question1.htm
> 
> I will plough through the replies to this section of the thread.-Not having practiced or understanding zen Buddhism, the Blackmore reference I find totally confusing. My mind seems to be buzzing constantly.

Free Will: Round worm experiment

by David Turell @, Saturday, March 14, 2015, 17:06 (3542 days ago) @ David Turell

Study covers three neurons related to sensing food. What the authors cannot tell is whether the worm is hungry at the time of the trial, just as they note in humans, hungry or not?-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150313110402.htm-"Even worms have free will. If offered a delicious smell, for example, a roundworm will usually stop its wandering to investigate the source, but sometimes it won't. Just as with humans, the same stimulus does not always provoke the same response, even from the same individual. New research at Rockefeller University, published online in Cell, offers a new neurological explanation for this variability, derived by studying a simple three-cell network within the roundworm brain.-"The human brain has 86 billion neurons and 100 trillion synapses, or connections, among them. The brain of the microscopic roundworm Caenorhabditis elegans, by comparison, has 302 neurons and 7,000 synapses. So while the worm's brain cannot replicate the complexity of the human brain, scientists can use it to address tricky neurological questions that would be nearly impossible to broach in our own brains.-"Worms spend their time wandering, looking for decomposing matter to eat. And when they smell it, they usually stop making random turns and travel straight toward the source. This change in behavior is initially triggered by a sensory neuron that perceives the smell and feeds that information to the network the researchers studied. As the worms pick up the alluring fruity smell of isoamyl alcohol, the neurons in the network transition into a low activity state that allows them to approach the odor. But sometimes the neurons remain highly active, and the worm continues to wander around -- even though its sensory neuron has detected the odor.-"Scaled up to account for the more nuanced behaviors of humans, the research may suggest ways in which our brains process competing motivations. "For humans, a hungry state might lead to you walk across the street to a delicious smelling restaurant. However, a competing aversion to the cold might lead you to stay indoors," he says."

Free Will: A new book says yes

by David Turell @, Friday, April 03, 2015, 00:10 (3523 days ago) @ David Turell

A book review in the Guardian:-http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/01/freedom-regained-julian-baggini-review-possibility-free-will-"There is a similar doublethink in our own time, but it is now freedom, not God, which is at stake. Rarely has the idea of freedom been so popular in practice and so disdained in theory. Almost everyone assumes that they are free, except for a small band of neuroscientists and geneticists for whom neural firings or inherited genes lie at the root of everything we do, including our sentimental attachment to the myth of free will. For them, as Julian Baggini remarks in this excellent book, “consciousness is just the noise made by the firing of neurons”. Like the closet atheists of Victorian England, however, these people continue to choose from menus, vote Lib Dem or select posh schools for their children, for all the world as though they were possessed of the very liberty they deny. For them, social existence is one enormous fiction, in which we suspend our theoretical disbelief in free will and pitch in with the deluded, freedom-loving masses for the sake of a quiet life.-"Yet some of the versions of freedom these scientists throw out are not worth having in the first place. No reputable philosopher for a very long time has taught that when we decide to put the cat out, we make something called a conscious act of will a millisecond before we rise from our armchairs. To say that I downed the glass of Scotch freely is to say that nobody was holding a gun to my head. It is to describe a situation, not report on an inner experience. Free will in this sense is most certainly a myth, and one, as Baggini points out, that was scarcely known to the thinkers of antiquity. He might have added that for a medieval thinker such as Thomas Aquinas, the will is a matter of love and desire, not of steel-hard determination.-********
"For most people, Freedom Regained will seem like a kind of Maginot line, defending a territory that is not under attack. This, however, is because the new enemies of freedom are not much evident in everyday life. They are mild-mannered, soft-spoken men and women in senior common rooms, not wild-eyed dictators raving through public address systems. Among its other virtues, the book reveals how many of these soft-spoken types engage in one of the oldest of all debating devices: setting up a straw man of the concept under fire so as the more conveniently to bowl it over. It is just what Dawkins does with God."

Free Will: childhood development of

by David Turell @, Monday, May 04, 2015, 01:59 (3492 days ago) @ David Turell

Not at 4 but by 6:-http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-children-develop-the-idea-of-free-will-1427898899?KEYWORDS=Gopnik-"Philosophers point out that there are different versions of free will. A simple version holds that we exercise our free will when we aren't constrained by outside forces. If the door were locked, I couldn't walk through it, no matter how determined I was. But since it's open, I can choose to go through or not. Saying that we act freely is just saying that we can do what we want when we aren't controlled by outside forces. This poses no problem for science. This version simply says that my actions usually stem from events in my brain—not from the world outside it.-"But we also think that we have free will in a stronger sense. We aren't just free from outside constraints; we can even act against our own desires. I might want the cookie, believe that the cookie is delicious, think that the cookie is healthy. But at the last moment, as a pure act of will, I could simply choose not to eat the cookie.-"But the 4-year-olds didn't understand the second sense of free will. They said that you couldn't simply decide to override your desires. If you wanted the cookie (and Mom said it was OK), you would have to eat it. The 6-year-olds, in contrast, like adults, said that you could simply decide whether to eat the cookie or not, no matter what. When we asked the 6-year-olds why people could act against their desires, many of them talked about a kind of absolute autonomy: “It's her brain, and she can do what she wants” or “Nobody can boss her around.”-"In other studies, in the journal Cognitive Science, Drs. Kushnir and Chernyak found that 4-year-olds also think that people couldn't choose to act immorally. Philosophers and theologians, and most adults, think that to be truly moral, we have to exercise our free will. We could do the wrong thing, but we choose to do the right one. But the 4-year-olds thought that you literally couldn't act in a way that would harm another child. They didn't develop the adult concept until even later, around 8."

Free Will: another take on it

by David Turell @, Tuesday, June 09, 2015, 14:24 (3455 days ago) @ David Turell

If we admit to free will we admit to something immaterial, which certainly has theistic implications:-http://www.oldguardaudio.com/2015/06/07/do-we-have-free-will-prager-university/-"So, what we have here, therefore, are two different types of things: an immaterial mind and the material brain. You are the thing that has the brain — you are not your brain.-"Now look, even if you were the world's foremost brain expert, and you knew what was happening with every electron in someone's brain at a specific, particular moment, you still wouldn't have a clue about what's going on inside that person's mind. Surgeons can have access to my brain, but only I have access to my mind.
This is what makes you human and not a machine.-"Psychology, the study of the mind, is not reducible to physics, and biology, and chemistry. Yet, there are many materialists — people who believe that physical matter is all that exists, that the only reality — including every thought, every feeling, every mind, every will, all of this is totally explained in terms of matter in motion, simply physical phenomena. These materialists believe that we're no more than robots and that free will is an illusion, a myth.-"Now, why do they believe this? Because they understand that the moment they acknowledge that free will exists, that there really is an immaterial you beyond the physical realm, that there really is a mind, not just a brain, then there has to be something non-physical that accounts for our non-physical minds.-"Now when you exercise your freewill and you choose to think about all of this — you're gonna probably reason — just like I did — that there is a Great Mind that accounts for the origin of your mind.-"But again, that's your choice — it's evidence of your free will."

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Friday, July 31, 2015, 22:36 (3403 days ago) @ David Turell

Clearly shown in this article:-https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-our-brains-toy-with-our-minds/2015/07/30/a979640e-299b-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html?wpisrc=nl_popns&wpmm=1-"Central to the sense of self is the feeling of free will — the impression that you make decisions and conduct behavior of your own volition. You are not a pre-programmed or remote-controlled robot. But in schizophrenia, this experience can go haywire. Normally, your brain registers the decision to act, immediately followed by the feeling of actually acting, and it concludes that you must be responsible for initiating the action. But in schizophrenia, mistimed feedback mechanisms can make behavior and thought seem to appear out of nowhere. Suddenly your internal monologue becomes a foreign voice. In both ill and healthy brains, our explanations for much of what happens in the world — including our own behavior — are manufactured after the fact. This insight leads to a concise definition of the self. As Ananthaswamy puts it, “You may be your brain's best guess as to [the] causes of all your internal and external sensory signals.” Something is causing these thoughts and actions, and when the internal timing is tuned, that thing is what we call the “self.”-***
"A recent study found that explaining naive realism to people and showing them visual illusions reduced their certainty in their judgments of others' behavior — whether Donald is being hostile or just assertive. Maybe neuroscience education can help alleviate social strife. (Who knows how many wars the dress-color controversy has averted by highlighting the subjectivity of experience — not counting the ones it's sparked online?) One might start by explaining how the self is fabricated and that it is a fabrication, just like everything else we experience. “The man who wasn't there” is an evocative term for a particular pathological self-negation. But, according to neuroscience, none of us are here."-Comment: I disagree; of course a sick brain will change our thoughts. We depend upon an intact functional brain.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, August 01, 2015, 02:37 (3403 days ago) @ David Turell

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain.
No it does not! The quote you posted does not even suggest that.
It suggests to have a sense of free will.-I would argue that to have free will, we have to redefine free will a la Dennett or other compatibilists, or we have to enter the world of magic or some such. Now of course you are there already there with a panentheistic god etc.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Saturday, August 01, 2015, 14:15 (3402 days ago) @ romansh

David: Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain.
> Romansh: No it does not! The quote you posted does not even suggest that.
> It suggests to have a sense of free will.-The whole thrust of the article was to point out what happens when the brain is not functioning properly. Then the author reaches a conclusion about free will that I do not think fits the discussion he presents. As far as I am concerned a properly functioning brain provides free will. If the brain's software is sick, mentation is affected, as is our awareness of reality.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, August 01, 2015, 16:54 (3402 days ago) @ David Turell

You missed my point completely David-Your Title should have read:
A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Saturday, August 01, 2015, 17:41 (3402 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh: You missed my point completely David
> 
> Your Title should have read:
> A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain.-Agreed

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, August 01, 2015, 17:59 (3402 days ago) @ David Turell

Romansh: You missed my point completely David
> > 
> > Your Title should have read:
> > A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain.
> 
> Agreed
So if I don't have a sense of free will, is my brain functioning "properly"?

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Saturday, August 01, 2015, 18:41 (3402 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh: You missed my point completely David
> > > 
> > > Your Title should have read:
> > > A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain.
> > 
> > David: Agreed
> Romansh: So if I don't have a sense of free will, is my brain functioning "properly"?-You are confusing. A normally functioning brain will give you a proper sense of free will. A psychotic person will wrongly think his consciousness and free will are normal. If a sick or damaged brain is thought of as a biologic computer, his control of his mind-screen will not be correct. Obviously other folks will have to tell him he is not thinking clearly.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, August 02, 2015, 02:25 (3402 days ago) @ David Turell

I may well be confusing.-But you did not answer my question.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Sunday, August 02, 2015, 04:30 (3402 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh: I may well be confusing.
> 
> But you did not answer my question.-I consider your question confusing: "Romansh: So if I don't have a sense of free will, is my brain functioning "properly"?"-The answer I gave still is, a psychotic person or a brain-damaged person will not know they are having improper ideations unless told so. I have a sense of free will, do you?

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, August 02, 2015, 14:32 (3401 days ago) @ David Turell

Romansh: I may well be confusing.
> > 
> > But you did not answer my question.
> 
> I consider your question confusing: "Romansh: So if I don't have a sense of free will, is my brain functioning "properly"?"
> 
> The answer I gave still is, a psychotic person or a brain-damaged person will not know they are having improper ideations unless told so. I have a sense of free will, do you?-We appear to have agreed that ... A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain; in that you understood this statement enough to disagree with it.-Yet you find the question So if I don't have a sense of free will, is my brain functioning "properly"? confusing. Interesting.-Do I have a sense of free will? -Most of the time yes. But there are moments when I find myself confabulating.-Ultimately the concept of free will is a denial of cause and effect.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Sunday, August 02, 2015, 15:00 (3401 days ago) @ romansh


> Romansh: Do I have a sense of free will? 
> 
> Most of the time yes. But there are moments when I find myself confabulating.
> 
> Ultimately the concept of free will is a denial of cause and effect.-Can you describe episodes of free will 'confabulation'? Do you mean you act as if without free will?-Free will is not a denial of cause and effect in my view. We've covered this before.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Monday, August 03, 2015, 04:50 (3401 days ago) @ David Turell

An example?-When I walk to my car in the carpark, there is a building positioned asymmetrically between me and where I left my car. The after I find myself taking a route to the car, I find myself calculating that the route I have chosen is the shortest. In reality it is a confabulation.-In fact on thinking about it pretty much all my thoughts must be.-Libertarian free will is a denial of cause and effect. Compatibilist free will is a redefinition of free will.-You still did not answer my question.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Monday, August 03, 2015, 14:43 (3400 days ago) @ romansh


> Romansh: Libertarian free will is a denial of cause and effect. Compatibilist free will is a redefinition of free will.
> 
> You still did not answer my question.- David: I've reproduced the original exchange:->Romansh: You missed my point completely David->Your Title should have read:->A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain.-> David: Agreed-> Romansh: So if I don't have a sense of free will, is my brain functioning "properly"?-Of course you have a right to your own interpretation of free will and its existence, and your brain is functioning properly. We just are on opposite sides of the debate.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Tuesday, August 04, 2015, 01:44 (3400 days ago) @ David Turell

??????

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Tuesday, August 04, 2015, 04:00 (3400 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh:??????

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Tuesday, August 04, 2015, 04:01 (3400 days ago) @ David Turell

Romansh:??????-???????

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Monday, August 10, 2015, 15:27 (3393 days ago) @ David Turell

My question ...
> Rom: So if I don't have a sense of free will, is my brain functioning "properly"?
and your reply ...
>> David: Of course you have a right to your own interpretation of free will and its existence, and your brain is functioning properly. We just are on opposite sides of the debate.-Don't you see you see, you did not answer my question!-I do think my brain is functioning "properly" too, at least for the most part.-But if I did not have a sense of free will (note I am not denying I have this sense) is my brain functioning "properly"?

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Monday, August 10, 2015, 17:39 (3393 days ago) @ romansh

Rom: My question ...
> > Rom: So if I don't have a sense of free will, is my brain functioning "properly"?
> and your reply ...
> >> David: Of course you have a right to your own interpretation of free will and its existence, and your brain is functioning properly. We just are on opposite sides of the debate.
> 
> Rom: Don't you see you see, you did not answer my question!
> 
> I do think my brain is functioning "properly" too, at least for the most part.
> 
> But if I did not have a sense of free will (note I am not denying I have this sense) is my brain functioning "properly"?-Yes, while your brain is functioning properly, you have made the decision to doubt free will. It is your freedom of thought which allows that conclusion.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Monday, August 10, 2015, 19:48 (3393 days ago) @ David Turell

Yes, while your brain is functioning properly, you have made the decision to doubt free will. It is your freedom of thought which allows that conclusion.-I will try one more time.-I have a sense of free will. So please don't answer the question in terms of my supposed free reasoning/thought. whatever. It is not my question.-If I (or anyone else for that matter) did not have a sense of free will, would my (or their) brain be functioning properly?-You have been conflating a belief in free will with a sense of free will, every time I ask this question. -Apparently not everyone can detect the same smells. So are the olfactory senses working "properly" in those that cannot smell something or have a very much higher threshold for detection? This is the sense I am asking the question. Similarly if someone does not have a sense of pain, is their nervous system working "properly"?

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Monday, August 10, 2015, 20:00 (3393 days ago) @ romansh


> Rom: I have a sense of free will. So please don't answer the question in terms of my supposed free reasoning/thought. whatever. It is not my question.
> 
> If I (or anyone else for that matter) did not have a sense of free will, would my (or their) brain be functioning properly?-Since we all seem to have a sense of free will, I would think not.
> 
> Rom: You have been conflating a belief in free will with a sense of free will, every time I ask this question. 
> 
> Apparently not everyone can detect the same smells. So are the olfactory senses working "properly" in those that cannot smell something or have a very much higher threshold for detection?-I would think this is individual variation working properly.-> Rom: This is the sense I am asking the question. Similarly if someone does not have a sense of pain, is their nervous system working "properly"?-Thinking mechanically as a physician, I think not.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Tuesday, August 11, 2015, 01:35 (3393 days ago) @ David Turell

Since we all seem to have a sense of free will, I would think not.-Then you seem to be agreeing with the intent of the original authors. To have a sense of free will we need to have a "properly" functioning brain.-
I don't like the word "properly" as an aside.

Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Tuesday, August 11, 2015, 14:35 (3392 days ago) @ romansh

David: Since we all seem to have a sense of free will, I would think not.
> 
> Rom:: Then you seem to be agreeing with the intent of the original authors. To have a sense of free will we need to have a "properly" functioning brain.
> 
> 
> I don't like the word "properly" as an aside.-My problem is my background as a physician. I've dealt with psychotic patients who tell me that outside forces are telling them what to do. That brain is not functioning properly, and the brain is the basis, somehow, for consciousness and recognitions of self.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Tuesday, August 11, 2015, 15:34 (3392 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by romansh, Tuesday, August 11, 2015, 15:49

David: Since we all seem to have a sense of free will, I would think not.
> > 
> > Rom:: Then you seem to be agreeing with the intent of the original authors. To have a sense of free will we need to have a "properly" functioning brain.
> > 
> > 
> > I don't like the word "properly" as an aside.
> 
> My problem is my background as a physician. I've dealt with psychotic patients who tell me that outside forces are telling them what to do. That brain is not functioning properly, and the brain is the basis, somehow, for consciousness and recognitions of self.-So what is your disagreement with the original Washington Post article?-Can you copy and paste the specific conclusion you disagree with. It is just that I don't recall any specifically with respect to free will. I don't have access any longer.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Tuesday, August 11, 2015, 20:02 (3392 days ago) @ romansh


> Rom: So what is your disagreement with the original Washington Post article?
> 
> Can you copy and paste the specific conclusion you disagree with. It is just that I don't recall any specifically with respect to free will. I don't have access any longer.-This is the website:-https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-our-brains-toy-with-our-minds/2015/07/30/a979640e-299b-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html?wpisrc=nl_popns&wpmm=1-This is the concluding quote I disagree with:-"A recent study found that explaining naive realism to people and showing them visual illusions reduced their certainty in their judgments of others' behavior — whether Donald is being hostile or just assertive. Maybe neuroscience education can help alleviate social strife. (Who knows how many wars the dress-color controversy has averted by highlighting the subjectivity of experience — not counting the ones it's sparked online?) One might start by explaining how the self is fabricated and that it is a fabrication, just like everything else we experience. “The man who wasn't there” is an evocative term for a particular pathological self-negation. But, according to neuroscience, none of us are here."-The author described pathological brain states and concluded the above. I don't think a normal brain can be thought of this way. As I've noted the normal brain provides for a conscious state and a sense of self. That it provides patterns for us from all its neurons in ionized states is helpful. If you reflect upon what you see, it is obvious that the arrangement is very helpful.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Wednesday, August 12, 2015, 14:13 (3391 days ago) @ David Turell

"A recent study found that explaining naive realism to people and showing them visual illusions reduced their certainty in their judgments of others' behavior — 
Are you claiming the study did not find this link or that it is simply a misinterpretation.-> Maybe neuroscience education can help alleviate social strife. (Who knows how many wars the dress-color controversy has averted by highlighting the subjectivity of experience — not counting the ones it's sparked online?)-You doubt explanations of our behaviours might alleviate social strife?-
> One might start by explaining how the self is fabricated and that it is a fabrication, just like everything else we experience. “The man who wasn't there” is an evocative term for a particular pathological self-negation. But, according to neuroscience, none of us are here."-There are two senses of the word fabricated here ... using the sense "made" it makes perfect sense to me? Having said that even in the sense of "made up" it is valid. 
 
>> The author described pathological brain states and concluded the above. I don't think a normal brain can be thought of this way. As I've noted the normal brain provides for a conscious state and a sense of self. That it provides patterns for us from all its neurons in ionized states is helpful. If you reflect upon what you see, it is obvious that the arrangement is very helpful.-I don't recall the author saying anything else, other than when we don't have a 'normal' brain state then we don't have a 'normal' sense of free will or of self. Now the way the article was written I suspect the author(s) don't believe in contra-causal free will and probably believe in the illusory nature of the self.-These two beliefs are understandable if we apply a little bit of inductive logic and careful self awareness.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Wednesday, August 12, 2015, 20:23 (3391 days ago) @ romansh

Rom: "A recent study found that explaining naive realism to people and showing them visual illusions reduced their certainty in their judgments of others' behavior — 
> Are you claiming the study did not find this link or that it is simply a misinterpretation. -I don't disagree at all with this statement. I've done it to myself.
> 
> > Rom: Maybe neuroscience education can help alleviate social strife. (Who knows how many wars the dress-color controversy has averted by highlighting the subjectivity of experience — not counting the ones it's sparked online?)
> 
> You doubt explanations of our behaviours might alleviate social strife?-I don't disagree.
> 
> 
> > One might start by explaining how the self is fabricated and that it is a fabrication, just like everything else we experience. “The man who wasn't there” is an evocative term for a particular pathological self-negation. But, according to neuroscience, none of us are here."
> 
> There are two senses of the word fabricated here ... using the sense "made" it makes perfect sense to me? Having said that even in the sense of "made up" it is valid. 
> 
> >> David: The author described pathological brain states and concluded the above. I don't think a normal brain can be thought of this way. As I've noted the normal brain provides for a conscious state and a sense of self. That it provides patterns for us from all its neurons in ionized states is helpful. If you reflect upon what you see, it is obvious that the arrangement is very helpful.
> 
> Rom: I don't recall the author saying anything else, other than when we don't have a 'normal' brain state then we don't have a 'normal' sense of free will or of self. Now the way the article was written I suspect the author(s) don't believe in contra-causal free will and probably believe in the illusory nature of the self.
> 
> These two beliefs are understandable if we apply a little bit of inductive logic and careful self awareness.-I assume the reason you have pursued this article so closely is the author's probable belief system is yours also. I don't think one can use the deranged brain to conclude that. My brain and I work in harmony with each other. As I work on a new project its plasticity provides a new area of neurons to handle the load. It provides patterns to help me discern reality. I've accepted that as a reasonable compromise for a biologic computer at the basis of my consciousness. I frankly don't know how else it could work. I understand that I don't receive the information at first hand. I know that eye witness accounts are not always accurate. That is the nature of the beast. I guess you'd call me a pragmatist.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Wednesday, August 12, 2015, 22:55 (3391 days ago) @ David Turell

I assume the reason you have pursued this article so closely is the author's probable belief system is yours also.
Not at all, I am just trying to understand your disagreement with the piece.-> I don't think one can use the deranged brain to conclude that. My brain and I work in harmony with each other. 
My understanding of your position might be somewhat limited, but I'm sure your radio analogy might point to having an "improperly" functioning brain might interfere with consciousness and consequently the sense of free will and self?-> As I work on a new project its plasticity provides a new area of neurons to handle the load. It provides patterns to help me discern reality. 
This brain plasticity is purely unconscious is it not?-> I've accepted that as a reasonable compromise for a biologic computer at the basis of my consciousness. I frankly don't know how else it could work. 
Therefore a god did it? -> I guess you'd call me a pragmatist.
Not really David.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Wednesday, August 12, 2015, 23:38 (3391 days ago) @ romansh

Ron: My understanding of your position might be somewhat limited, but I'm sure your radio analogy might point to having an "improperly" functioning brain might interfere with consciousness and consequently the sense of free will and self?-Simply, yes. But the radio analogy is just an attempt at understanding how consciousness seems to survive temporary death, as shown by its appearance when the brain is non-functional by all tests known to medicine.
> 
> > David As I work on a new project its plasticity provides a new area of neurons to handle the load. It provides patterns to help me discern reality.
 
> Rom: This brain plasticity is purely unconscious is it not?-Yes. We are not aware of it as it happens.
> 
> > David: I've accepted that as a reasonable compromise for a biologic computer at the basis of my consciousness. I frankly don't know how else it could work.
 
> rom: Therefore a god did it?-I don't think that one fact arrives at 'therefore'. The issue for me is how consciousness appeared. It is for Thomas Nagel also.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Thursday, August 13, 2015, 14:31 (3390 days ago) @ David Turell

Our brain seems to anticipate being helpful: note the following study on new vs, recognized:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150812200535.htm-"A novel learning and memory brain network has been discovered that processes incoming information based on whether it's something we've experienced previously or is deemed to be altogether new and unknown, helping us recognize, for instance, whether the face before us is that of a familiar friend or a complete stranger.-"'Activity in this network tells us if you're looking at something that you perceive to be novel or familiar," said Adrian Gilmore, first author of the study and a fifth-year psychology doctoral student in Arts & Sciences at Washington University. "When an individual sees a novel stimulus, this network shows a marked decrease in activity. When an individual sees a familiar stimulus, this network shows a marked increase in activity.'"-"Described by study authors as the Parietal Memory Network (PMN), the new memory and learning network shows consistent patterns of activation and deactivation in three distinct regions of the parietal cortex in the brain's left hemisphere -- the precuneus, the mid-cingulate cortex and the dorsal angular gyrus.-"Activity within the PMN during the processing of incoming information (encoding) can be used to predict how well that information will be stored in memory and later made available for successful retrieval. The PMN exhibits opposite patterns of activity depending on whether the information being retrieved is recognized as new or familiar -- the more familiar the information, the more activity in the PMN, the study found."-Comment: No, we do not fully control our brain, but I view our brain as being built to help us, even to anticipating needs. Of course, I see design.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Thursday, August 13, 2015, 14:47 (3390 days ago) @ David Turell

Comment: No, we do not fully control our brain, but I view our brain as being built to help us, even to anticipating needs. Of course, I see design.-I don't see anything here that argues in favour of free will.-
> I don't think that one fact arrives at 'therefore'. The issue for me is how consciousness appeared. It is for Thomas Nagel also.-So which bit of the quote did you disagree with?

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Thursday, August 13, 2015, 16:30 (3390 days ago) @ romansh

David: Comment: No, we do not fully control our brain, but I view our brain as being built to help us, even to anticipating needs. Of course, I see design.
> 
> Rom: I don't see anything here that argues in favour of free will.
> 
> 
> > I don't think that one fact arrives at 'therefore'. The issue for me is how consciousness appeared. It is for Thomas Nagel also.
> 
> Rom: So which bit of the quote did you disagree with?-Are you referring back to this:-This is the website:-https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-our-brains-toy-with-our-minds/2015/07/30/a9...-This is the concluding quote I disagree with:-"A recent study found that explaining naive realism to people and showing them visual illusions reduced their certainty in their judgments of others' behavior — whether Donald is being hostile or just assertive. Maybe neuroscience education can help alleviate social strife. (Who knows how many wars the dress-color controversy has averted by highlighting the subjectivity of experience — not counting the ones it's sparked online?) One might start by explaining how the self is fabricated and that it is a fabrication, just like everything else we experience. “The man who wasn't there” is an evocative term for a particular pathological self-negation. But, according to neuroscience, none of us are here."-The author described pathological brain states and concluded the above. I don't think a normal brain can be thought of this way. As I've noted the normal brain provides for a conscious state and a sense of self. That it provides patterns for us from all its neurons in ionized states is helpful. If you reflect upon what you see, it is obvious that the arrangement is very helpful.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Thursday, August 13, 2015, 17:12 (3390 days ago) @ David Turell

And yet when I parsed the passage you seemed to agree with it?

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Thursday, August 13, 2015, 18:07 (3390 days ago) @ romansh

Rom: And yet when I parsed the passage you seemed to agree with it?-But not this:-"But, according to neuroscience, none of us are here."-We are here, and I agree that it is once removed, because of the way our biochemical brain has to offer information to us. To me this is very satisfactory and probably the only solution, since that is the evolutionary result.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Thursday, August 13, 2015, 21:36 (3390 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by romansh, Thursday, August 13, 2015, 21:51

"But, according to neuroscience, none of us are here."
> 
Thank you, now I understand ... it is this one line that you object to.-When I read this the author(s)was referring to what I call an intrinsic self. I thought it was fairly clear from the text in general.-Now from a materialistic neuroscience point of view it is hard to see how a intrinsic self might form and almost by definition, I would argue, it cannot. If you can show how a materialistic intrinsic self might form, I would be interested. -Now if you have magical consciousness pervading the universe and this consciousness is doing whatever, then that too, leaves little room for an intrinsic self.-Of course our bodies do exist, as do our patterns of behaviour and similar phenomena. Ignoring solipsism for the moment. But for a neuroscientist it would be difficult to argue for an intrinsic self unless they deny materialism, but at this point the ball is in their court to provide evidence for the magical sauce. And the phrase "I don't see how it could be otherwise", just does not cut it.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Friday, August 14, 2015, 00:10 (3390 days ago) @ romansh

"But, according to neuroscience, none of us are here."
> > 
> Rom: Thank you, now I understand ... it is this one line that you object to.
> 
> When I read this the author(s)was referring to what I call an intrinsic self. I thought it was fairly clear from the text in general.
> 
> Now from a materialistic neuroscience point of view it is hard to see how a intrinsic self might form and almost by definition, I would argue, it cannot. If you can show how a materialistic intrinsic self might form, I would be interested.-I would think a newborn baby has no sense of self, and so I think a sense of self is a developmental phenomenon, especially as I view our plastic brain as working with us as we develop. The whole issue of consciousness is part of the problem. As a child develops an individual personality and ego defense mechanisms appear this requires the use of one's consciousness. Of course the brain is material, but can you explain your concept of 'materialistic intrinsic self', because I'm not sure what you are driving at.
> 
> Rom: Now if you have magical consciousness pervading the universe and this consciousness is doing whatever, then that too, leaves little room for an intrinsic self.-I'm still confused. I don't think one is born with 'self', but our consciousness is there from the beginning, although our awareness of it has to develop. Babies do respond in the womb to outside stimuli.

Free Will and Jerry Coyne

by romansh ⌂ @, Friday, August 14, 2015, 21:37 (3389 days ago) @ David Turell

Free Will and Jerry Coyne

by David Turell @, Saturday, August 15, 2015, 00:06 (3389 days ago) @ romansh

Rom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca7i-D4ddaw#t=373-Having watched a good portion of his talk I am a compatibilist. I really have never tried to define myself in someone's classification. I just know how I feel. Coyne's reliance on fMRI and electrical brain studies falls into the usual trap. fMRI simply tells us which area of the brain is active for the task, not how the brain does it in the detail of how neurons are interacting, changing synapse levels, etc. the so called intention spike whish precedes the event is also not identified in any exact way. It is not clear exactly what it represents, thought, intention, gearing up, for the simple reason that we are not observing a hard-wired computer. It takes micro-seconds for the biochemical reactions to produce ions which send messages. These problems are discussed in detail by neuroscientists who work I have published here. We are unfortunately once or twice removed from exactly what is going on.

Free Will and Jerry Coyne

by David Turell @, Sunday, August 16, 2015, 14:25 (3387 days ago) @ David Turell

David: the so called intention spike whish precedes the event is also not identified in any exact way. It is not clear exactly what it represents, thought, intention, gearing up, for the simple reason that we are not observing a hard-wired computer. It takes micro-seconds for the biochemical reactions to produce ions which send messages. These problems are discussed in detail by neuroscientists who work I have published here. We are unfortunately once or twice removed from exactly what is going on.-Here is an article to extend my point about neuron spikes, an area in which Coyne is not an expert:-http://inference-review.com/article/big-neuroscience-"What, in fact, is the complex, multivariate neural code that the brain uses to generate complex cognitive, perceptual, and motor behavior in the first place? This code is related, somehow, to the behavior of neuron spiking, but we do not yet know how.-"Neuron spikes are explained, Markram suggests, primarily by membrane behavior from ion charge differences; temporal sequencing is thus of greater relevance than higher-order patterns like oscillations. Once data have been generated, they are used to scale up a multivariate simulation. To simulate biologically realistic neurons and their connections, a model of neuron behavior is needed. Markram's theories are based on the Hodgkin and Huxley equations, a set of non-linear differential equations describing the initiation and propagation of action potentials.28 Alan Lloyd Hodgkin and Andrew Huxley presented their model in the 1950s, using the common electrical circuit as a framework. The NEURON software developed during the 1990s at Yale, and used today in a range of neuroscience projects (including the HBP), is based on the H-H model.-"The H-H model is not a complete explanation of neuron spike behavior, or even of ion channel behavior. Still, some advances have been made. Hodgkin and Huxley could not determine the temporal activation sequence of ion conduction. They could only approximate it. Research in the 1960s and 1970s was able partially to solve the problem by using the pore theory of membrane-spanning proteins. Aside from such relatively minor tweaks, however, it is the basic H-H model that remains dominant in neuroscience today. -"In their initial research, Hodgkin and Huxley introduced first-order rate equations describing the probability that an ion gate is in an open state. Their equations depended on a number of parametric fudges. How they came to their specific fudges remained unexplained, and Hodgkin and Huxley acknowledged as much. -"A typical HBP protocol thus has the following form:
a.A research paper is scanned for its numerical parameters: applied stimulus protocols, reverse potentials of ion channels, and inactivation kinetics.
b.Since the equations required to model H-H from empirically discovered parameters are often missing from the literature, curve digitization is used to recreate them. This is a technology that converts graphical images into numerical formulas. Given a standard activation curve plotted in a Cartesian coordinate system, curve digitization extracts a function that re-creates the curve in the coordinate system. An open source package, Engauge Digitizer, is currently used for this purpose.
c.After digitization and curve fitting, another software package, GenericFit, is used to simulate the H-H model.
d.Since the initial simulation generated is usually wrong, parameter readjustments are required. The computer model is made to fit the experimental results by tweaking the numbers extracted from the parameter identification, a process known as double fudging. -"This is not a scheme calculated to inspire confidence, if only because errors introduced at the level of individual neurons are propagated to groups and circuits of neurons in the downstream simulation."

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Friday, August 14, 2015, 22:52 (3389 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by romansh, Friday, August 14, 2015, 23:03

I would think a newborn baby has no sense of self, and so I think a sense of self is a developmental phenomenon, 
I would agree
> especially as I view our plastic brain as working with us as we develop. 
Not exactly, who is this us (or me or I in the singular) at the development stage?
I know what it means for me, but I do have a confusing picture of what it means for you.
> The whole issue of consciousness is part of the problem. 
Only if you believe or assume it drives your actions-> As a child develops an individual personality and ego defense mechanisms appear this requires the use of one's consciousness. 
Does it? 
> Of course the brain is material, but can you explain your concept of 'materialistic intrinsic self', because I'm not sure what you are driving at.
A material intrinsic self is a self that can act independent of cause.-> I'm still confused. I don't think one is born with 'self', but our consciousness is there from the beginning, although our awareness of it has to develop. Babies do respond in the womb to outside stimuli.
Again I am confused, where does the self come from? As far as I can tell it is just a collection of atoms and any resulting physics that might occur. This collection of atoms and resulting physics are formed from the environment ... food, genes etc, experiences. -I would agree a baby is neither born with a self nor a sense of self. As we develop we gain a sense of self not an intrinsic self. Again I think you are imbuing consciousness with properties that I am far from convinced it does actually have. -Babies respond to the environment as does a well struck ball. Complexity may vary. I am having trouble seeing the relevance.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Saturday, August 15, 2015, 00:25 (3389 days ago) @ romansh

Rom: who is this us (or me or I in the singular) at the development stage?
> I know what it means for me, but I do have a confusing picture of what it means for you.-I'm just using us in a collective sense. We all follow a similar pattern of development modified obviously by the current emotional factors that each of us experience.-
> > David: The whole issue of consciousness is part of the problem. -> Rom: Only if you believe or assume it drives your actions-I wasn't clear, I was referring to the Hard Problem of how it arises and its relation to the brain, on which it depends in some way.
> 
> > Avid As a child develops an individual personality and ego defense mechanisms appear this requires the use of one's consciousness. 
 
> Rom: Does it? -Well, you are right, lots of folks develop a personality and self automatically without giving it much thought. Some of us do.->> Rom: A material intrinsic self is a self that can act independent of cause.-Thanks for the definition. Does that mean you accept free will?-> Rom: where does the self come from? As far as I can tell it is just a collection of atoms and any resulting physics that might occur. This collection of atoms and resulting physics are formed from the environment ... food, genes etc, experiences.-The self comes briefly stated, from the genetic background, developmental experiences, introspection, resulting in each of us having a concept, developed in the brain, of ourselves as a sense of self, an identity each of us recognizes as 'me'.
> 
> Rom: I would agree a baby is neither born with a self nor a sense of self. As we develop we gain a sense of self not an intrinsic self. Again I think you are imbuing consciousness with properties that I am far from convinced it does actually have.-We will have to disagree. What properties does your consciousness have? Are there limits?
> 
> Rom: Babies respond to the environment as does a well struck ball. Complexity may vary. I am having trouble seeing the relevance.-Babies are constantly responding to all that is outside them. Mothers reading to them at an early age increases IQ. Orphans in an institution do not develop normally if not stimulated. It is a two-way arrangement us and our brain. I study and an area of my cortex enlarges to handle it. That is why Einstein's brain is so interesting. A conceptual area is very thick compared to normal brains. Did he create it or was he born with it?

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Saturday, August 15, 2015, 18:45 (3388 days ago) @ David Turell

An excellent review of the book whose review started this thread. The book is The Main Who Wasn't There by Anil Ananthaswamy. -http://www.wsj.com/articles/our-bodies-our-selves-1439581982-A sense of self:-"Having painted this portrait of the self through its pathologies, Mr. Ananthaswamy dances across the line between neuroscience and philosophy by asking the reader to consider two selves, the self-as-subject and the self-as-object, or the “I” and the “me,” as one might say. The various kinds of sensory information about the body's status and position are the “me” part of the self. If you say, “I feel furious today,” the fury is part of body-status data reported as the “me.” The question then arises: Who is the “I” who is experiencing the fury, and where does it come from?-"One answer, Mr. Ananthaswamy suggests, is that there are specific anatomical sites in the brain where the components of the self are generated, and one site takes the lead in integrating their output. A deep brain structure called the insula seems to be a high-level part of this system. The anterior insula generates a “global emotional moment” once every 125 milliseconds. Like the invisible frames in a movie, these moments are strung together to give us a continuous sense of self, according to the researcher A.D. Craig."-A view of consciousness:-His comment on consciousness which explains why I don't think Jerry Coyne's use of neuroscience is appropriate. We are on the outside looking in. We realy don't know what is going on:-"The simplest animal studied in laboratories, the Caenorhabditis elegans roundworm, has 302 neurons in its brain, with 8,000 interconnections. If, when told the input into this little brain, we could predict the output, we could claim a deep understanding of the worm's mind. But though the circuit diagram of the worm's brain has been available since 1986, no one has come anywhere near a full comprehension of the worm's intellect.-"The human brain contains 100 billion neurons and 100 trillion interconnections. Presently there is no known reason why we should not one day understand this stupendous electrical machine. But as long as we understand so little of the worm's brain, we are unlikely to grasp the higher-level functions of the human brain, such as the self and consciousness.-"The author, to his credit, admits as much. What philosophers describe as the hard problem of consciousness is to explain how the physical processes of the brain give rise to the apparently immaterial property of consciousness, in which the self is embedded. “This book does not offer neuroscientific solutions to the hard problem of consciousness—there are none, yet,” Mr. Ananthaswamy writes."

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Saturday, August 29, 2015, 17:57 (3374 days ago) @ David Turell

Another article by the author Anil Ananthaswamy on the science of self. In this article he discusses out of the body experiences, but he does not mention the ones that occur in anesthetized patients during surgery:-http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-lessons-of-out-of-body-experiences-1440774646-"But what these lab experiments and studies are showing us is that nothing is really leaving the body during an out-of-body experience. When the brain is operating on sensory information that is congruent (meaning that the sensations of touch match what the eyes are seeing, for example), the brain situates the self in the body and provides a sense of perspective and body ownership. -"But when the sensations aren't congruent, because someone is being tricked by the rubber-hand illusion or suffering from some neurological aberration, the brain does its best to make sense of all the misleading data. The brain can miscalculate the coordinates for the self, positioning it outside the body or in another illusory body. -"So modern studies of out-of-body experiences and full-body illusions aren't making a case for dualism. Rather, they're showing us that the sense of bodily self is something that is constructed by the brain moment by moment. The bodily self turns out to be the basis for our greater sense of self, which involves more complex aspects including the narrative self (that is, the stories we tell others and ourselves about who we are) and the social, cultural self.-"Our sense of self arises from a complex interaction among brain, body, mind and culture—and in the full-blown selves we are, all aspects of the self interact with and influence one another. But it all begins with the body."-Comment: Romansh will disagree, but I view the brain and its workings as a biologic computer that does as best it can, two or three times removed from reality, to present reality to us. And it dos an excellent job. Just look at a modern city and you can see human endeavor at work. We get what we intend to plan. -But at times we can note being fooled. For example, sitting in a parking lot in your car and slightly daydreaming. The next car backs out and you feel for an instant as if you are moving. So? We still conduct our lives with planning and purpose and succeed. That is all that is necessary. And the author has not explained consciousness and avoided (perhaps purposely) operative out-of-the-body experiences when the person is chemically unconscious.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, August 30, 2015, 18:36 (3373 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by romansh, Sunday, August 30, 2015, 18:47

An excellent review of the book whose review started this thread. The book is The Main Who Wasn't There by Anil Ananthaswamy. 
So did you read Anil's book?-> A view of consciousness:
> His comment on consciousness which explains why I don't think Jerry Coyne's use of neuroscience is appropriate. We are on the outside looking in. We realy don't know what is going on:-I think the use of neuroscience is completely valid, though I don't think it will provide a complete picture. Psychology too is on the outside looking in. But if psychologists are true to themselves, they too will recognize they are practicing a form of determinism.-And this brings us to introspection, I assume this is what you are suggesting David?-And if so, I completely agree with you ... having said that we need to try and bring some scientific rigour to this introspection. Now others have suggested this including Susan Blackmore. She has suggested meditation as one possible route. -And here is where we seem to part ways David. Now if I look carefully inside of my self, I can see that my so called consciousness has papered over the absence of a conscious will.

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by David Turell @, Sunday, August 30, 2015, 18:46 (3373 days ago) @ romansh


> Romansh:And here is where we seem to part ways David. Now if I look carefully inside of my self, I can see that my so called consciousness has papered over the absence of a conscious will.-If I don't have a conscious will, what do I have in your view?

A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, August 30, 2015, 18:49 (3373 days ago) @ David Turell

A history.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, August 30, 2015, 19:14 (3373 days ago) @ romansh

When I first started playing the free will game on the AgnosticWeb, here a few years ago I wanted to define free will in terms similar to something like ... the ability to act or make choices independently of the environment. You and dhw insisted on putting in a consciousness component. I understand why, but this definitely causes a quagmire of confusion.-In fact my definition has a lower standard for meeting the free will requirement. We could meet it either consciously or not. So several years later we still play the same dance around what is or is not consciousness. -The question remains is our will independent of cause? This applies to our unconscious and our supposedly conscious wills. Does consciousness suspend the laws of physics? In the sense that the laws of physics no longer describe brain activity and the brain/mind is an independent agent.-If this is what believers of free will believe, then the ball is firmly in their court to demonstrate corroborating evidence.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Monday, August 31, 2015, 00:43 (3373 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh" When I first started playing the free will game on the AgnosticWeb, here a few years ago I wanted to define free will in terms similar to something like ... the ability to act or make choices independently of the environment. You and dhw insisted on putting in a consciousness component. I understand why, but this definitely causes a quagmire of confusion.-? 'choices independent of environment' is confusing without explanation. Do you mean independent of the environment of the brain? 
> 
> Romansh:In fact my definition has a lower standard for meeting the free will requirement. We could meet it either consciously or not. So several years later we still play the same dance around what is or is not consciousness.-As for consciousness, I use mine to consider my choices to perform at my will. And yes it certainly has a sense of purposeful intentionality. I feel the two, free will and consciousness, are intimately related. 
> 
> Romansh: The question remains is our will independent of cause? -Are you implying there is no cause and effect relationship to my creation of free will decisions? I feel there is. -> Romansh: This applies to our unconscious and our supposedly conscious wills. Does consciousness suspend the laws of physics? In the sense that the laws of physics no longer describe brain activity and the brain/mind is an independent agent.-I wouldn't raise the issues of unconscious and subconscious activity. Freudian psychiatry is passing away. It makes much more sense to look at the sources of personality traits and defense mechanisms. These comes from the 'history' you referred to in another entry preceding this one. We all make our own personality and thought patterns leading to free will intentionality from teachings, past experiences and trial and error. -As for the source of consciousness I don't know which laws of physics to suspend. If the brain is a receiver, laws of physics are active. If consciousness is due to quantum activity in the brain, laws still apply. The presence of the brain seems to be required except in the NDE episodes, where it appears a functional brain is not required. 
> 
> Romansh: If this is what believers of free will believe, then the ball is firmly in their court to demonstrate corroborating evidence.-The evidence is the NDE experiences and research into them by several M.D.s starting in the 1960's and ongoing today, notwithstanding rather pitiful refutations by Blackmore in 1993. I admit we are still confused about consciousness since we have no definite answers, clearly expressed by Nagel.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Monday, August 31, 2015, 13:52 (3372 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by romansh, Monday, August 31, 2015, 14:01

? 'choices independent of environment' is confusing without explanation. Do you mean independent of the environment of the brain? 
The brain, within and without. 
 
> As for consciousness, I use mine to consider my choices to perform at my will. And yes it certainly has a sense of purposeful intentionality. I feel the two, free will and consciousness, are intimately related. 
So you say ... We are trying to establish the 'veracity' of our feelings not whether we have them or not.-> Are you implying there is no cause and effect relationship to my creation of free will decisions? I feel there is. 
No I am saying if there is a 'mechanism' for our free will then the concept of free will is either an oxymoron or that is has been redefined to something else.-> I wouldn't raise the issues of unconscious and subconscious activity. Freudian psychiatry is passing away. It makes much more sense to look at the sources of personality traits and defense mechanisms. These comes from the 'history' you referred to in another entry preceding this one. We all make our own personality and thought patterns leading to free will intentionality from teachings, past experiences and trial and error. 
And yet you continually dredge up consciousness as your prime exhibit for free will? -> As for the source of consciousness I don't know which laws of physics to suspend. If the brain is a receiver, laws of physics are active. If consciousness is due to quantum activity in the brain, laws still apply. The presence of the brain seems to be required except in the NDE episodes, where it appears a functional brain is not required. 
Even if consciousness actually exists in the form you seem to be proposing (something ethereal as far as I can make out) then that too will respond to cause and effect, will it not? So our consciousness is not free in this sense. Probabilistic at best.-> The evidence is the NDE experiences and research into them by several M.D.s starting in the 1960's and ongoing today, notwithstanding rather pitiful refutations by Blackmore in 1993. I admit we are still confused about consciousness since we have no definite answers, clearly expressed by Nagel.
Again more historical consciousness of dubious provenance.-Have to go to work now ... have a nice day.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Tuesday, September 01, 2015, 01:48 (3372 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh: And yet you continually dredge up consciousness as your prime exhibit for free will? -My view is I have consciousness which allows me to think and plan purposefully. Thus I have free will.
 -> Romansh: Even if consciousness actually exists in the form you seem to be proposing (something ethereal as far as I can make out) then that too will respond to cause and effect, will it not? So our consciousness is not free in this sense. Probabilistic at best.-Why are you equating free will and consciousness? Free will is a result of consciousness, not equal to it.-> Romansh: Have to go to work now ... have a nice day.-I've had a very productive day, thank you. Now for the shower and supper. By the way can you describe what you think free will is, if you think it exists. Real, an illusion?

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Tuesday, September 01, 2015, 13:43 (3371 days ago) @ David Turell

Romansh: And yet you continually dredge up consciousness as your prime exhibit for free will? 
> 
> My view is I have consciousness which allows me to think and plan purposefully. Thus I have free will.-Could you not think and plan purposefully without consciousness? 
> 
> > Romansh: Even if consciousness actually exists in the form you seem to be proposing (something ethereal as far as I can make out) then that too will respond to cause and effect, will it not? So our consciousness is not free in this sense. Probabilistic at best.
> 
> Why are you equating free will and consciousness? Free will is a result of consciousness, not equal to it.
>-Because you keep bringing it up ... it is your definition of free will that has consciousness in it. Not mine.- 
> > Romansh: Have to go to work now ... have a nice day.
> 
> I've had a very productive day, thank you. Now for the shower and supper. By the way can you describe what you think free will is, if you think it exists. Real, an illusion?-one more time ....
http://www3.telus.net/romansh/juris/freewill.htm

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Wednesday, September 02, 2015, 01:01 (3371 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh: one more time ....-> http://www3.telus.net/romansh/juris/freewill.htm-I have read your essay very carefully with your definition of free will:-"The ability to act or to make choices independently of the environment or of the universe."-With the constraints you impose I can understand your viewpoint. I think it is a rather tortured approach, but it is obvious I have no comparable background in philosophy as yours appears to be. I'm just not inclined to dig in that deeply. Why? Well, my training is as a bio-mechanic, working with humans as biologic machines, interfering with them by the use of chemicals, etc. It is difficult to leave that mindset. Nor do I think I see anything in your essay that makes me think differently. There are many points I disagree with and some I agree with, but I don't think it serves any purpose to voice objections. I think other followers of this website should take a careful look at your essay and make up their own minds.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Wednesday, September 02, 2015, 13:50 (3370 days ago) @ David Turell

With the constraints you impose I can understand your viewpoint. I think it is a rather tortured approach ... 
Well personally I thought this was perhaps overly simplistic rather than tortured. It is simply the result of someone who believes in cause and effect. No more no less.-> I'm just not inclined to dig in that deeply. Why? Well, my training is as a bio-mechanic, working with humans as biologic machines, interfering with them by the use of chemicals, etc. It is difficult to leave that mindset.-Again this is not very deep ... simply a result of cause and effect. But in a sense you are right. Our biases and past mind sets do win. Having said that I can't see how having training in biomechanics etc is incompatible with cause and effect and a lack of free will.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Wednesday, September 02, 2015, 14:20 (3370 days ago) @ romansh

David: With the constraints you impose I can understand your viewpoint. I think it is a rather tortured approach ... 
> Romansh: Well personally I thought this was perhaps overly simplistic rather than tortured. It is simply the result of someone who believes in cause and effect. No more no less.-I believe in cause and effect also, but feel the development of the biomechanics of the human body requires certain compromises when compared to direct material machinery, i.e., your example of eye movements. A necessary adjustment which allows us a perfect view of stationary reality.
> 
> > David: I'm just not inclined to dig in that deeply. Why? Well, my training is as a bio-mechanic, working with humans as biologic machines, interfering with them by the use of chemicals, etc. It is difficult to leave that mindset.
> 
> Romansh: Again this is not very deep ... simply a result of cause and effect. But in a sense you are right. Our biases and past mind sets do win. Having said that I can't see how having training in biomechanics etc is incompatible with cause and effect and a lack of free will.-I simply disagree with your interpretation of cause and effect when the senses we have are at times two or three times removed in offering us the correct interpretation of reality. we are both rationally communicating with each other, but the processes underlying that communication are highly complex.-On the other hand, of course we are made of inorganic stardust which became alive.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Thursday, September 03, 2015, 13:51 (3369 days ago) @ David Turell

So are you suggesting our wills are not free of cause and effect and yet we still have free will?

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Thursday, September 03, 2015, 14:48 (3369 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh: So are you suggesting our wills are not free of cause and effect and yet we still have free will?-Contingency does not control my use of my free will.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, September 05, 2015, 00:31 (3368 days ago) @ David Turell

Romansh: So are you suggesting our wills are not free of cause and effect and yet we still have free will?
> 
> Contingency does not control my use of my free will.
First you did not answer my question.-And second how do you know your statement is true?
If your actions are not a result of your beliefs thoughts etc then what are they a result of?

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Saturday, September 05, 2015, 00:47 (3368 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh: So are you suggesting our wills are not free of cause and effect and yet we still have free will?
> > 
> > David:Contingency does not control my use of my free will.
> Romansh: First you did not answer my question.
> 
> And second how do you know your statement is true?
> If your actions are not a result of your beliefs thoughts etc then what are they a result of?-My actions are the result of my decisions. That is the only cause and effect. Some of the independent processes in the brain are developed to help us understand reality, not to control our thoughts or actions.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, September 05, 2015, 15:54 (3367 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by romansh, Saturday, September 05, 2015, 16:01

If your actions are not a result of your beliefs thoughts etc then what are they a result of?
> My actions are the result of my decisions. 
Yes ... decision and will are in effect synonymous in this case as are wish, want etc.-So are you decisions independent of cause and effect?-> That is the only cause and effect. 
The only cause and effect? ... This requires some elaboration. You can't put cause and effect into some metaphorical box and think of the contents as isolated. -> Some of the independent processes in the brain are developed to help us understand reality, not to control our thoughts or actions.
Independent processes? Which processes are these? Independent of the foods and liquids we have partaken? Independent of our experiences? Independent of chemistry and physics? -Exactly in what narrow sense are these processes independent?

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Saturday, September 05, 2015, 18:47 (3367 days ago) @ romansh

Previous entry:-Romansh: If your actions are not a result of your beliefs thoughts etc then what are they a result of?-David: My actions are the result of my decisions. That is the only cause and effect. Some of the independent processes in the brain are developed to help us understand reality, not to control our thoughts or actions.-
> Romansh: Yes ... decision and will are in effect synonymous in this case as are wish, want etc.-We are allowed to do as we wish or will. Thought leads to will.
> 
> Romansh: So are you decisions independent of cause and effect?
> 
> > David: That is the only cause and effect.
 
> Romansh: The only cause and effect? ... This requires some elaboration. You can't put cause and effect into some metaphorical box and think of the contents as isolated. -We have elaborated at length before. Of course my decisions are based on previous experience and current events. What are you hunting for?
> 
> > Some of the independent processes in the brain are developed to help us understand reality, not to control our thoughts or actions.-> Romansh: Independent processes? Which processes are these?> 
> Exactly in what narrow sense are these processes independent?-You have discussed one of them recently, eye movement. Another obvious one is pattern recognition. These are provided by the brain to help us. Again, a biologic computer is not a man-made computer or camera.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 16:40 (3366 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by romansh, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 17:16

We are allowed to do as we wish or will. Thought leads to will.
This is the freedom of action of debate ... not the free will debate.-> We have elaborated at length before. Of course my decisions are based on previous experience and current events. What are you hunting for?
Some recognition that our thoughts/decisions or wills are not free.-I will ask my question again:
>>.... not to control our thoughts or actions.
> Independent processes? Which processes are these?> 
 Exactly in what narrow sense are these processes independent?-In what sense are our thoughts/wills independent?-Do you actually think our eye movements are independent of cause?

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 18:50 (3366 days ago) @ romansh


> > David: We have elaborated at length before. Of course my decisions are based on previous experience and current events. What are you hunting for?-> Romansh: Some recognition that our thoughts/decisions or wills are not free.-I don't accept that position.
> 
> Romansh: I will ask my question again:
> >>.... not to control our thoughts or actions.
> > Independent processes? Which processes are these?> 
> Exactly in what narrow sense are these processes independent?-I don't know how much clearer I can be. The brain has helpful processes (which you have mentioned) that allow us to use a biological machine to understand reality. we do not control these processes, but they do not act to form our opinions, thoughts and actions.
> 
> Romansh: In what sense are our thoughts/wills independent?-Because I create them, they are mine independently. I equate free will and intentionality.
> 
> dhw: Do you actually think our eye movements are independent of cause?-No, they are caused by the brain as built-in mechanisms to help us see reality properly. The brain is not a digital camera. What caused the brain to develop this ability is the underlying discussion of this website.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 20:21 (3366 days ago) @ David Turell


> > > David: We have elaborated at length before. Of course my decisions are based on previous experience and current events. What are you hunting for?
> > Romansh: Some recognition that our thoughts/decisions or wills are not free.
> I don't accept that position.
Funnily enough this doe not surprise me one bit.-> > Romansh: I will ask my question again:
> > >>.... not to control our thoughts or actions.
> > > Independent processes? Which processes are these?> 
> > Exactly in what narrow sense are these processes independent?
> I don't know how much clearer I can be. The brain has helpful processes (which you have mentioned) that allow us to use a biological machine to understand reality. we do not control these processes, but they do not act to form our opinions, thoughts and actions.
Do you realize you just denied cause and effect with your denial above?
You could be clearer by painting a more coherent picture.-> > Romansh: In what sense are our thoughts/wills independent?
> Because I create them, they are mine independently. I equate free will and intentionality.
Again what is this "I" and are your intentions independent of cause? We keep dancing around this. But it is plain to pretty much everyone following this you think of yourself as independent of cause somehow.
> > Do you actually think our eye movements are independent of cause? 
> No, they are caused by the brain as built-in mechanisms to help us see reality properly. The brain is not a digital camera. What caused the brain to develop this ability is the underlying discussion of this website.
Then why cite them as an example being independent of cause?-From a free will aspect I care little what caused our wills. It is more that they were caused and the resulting implications.-And as to the underlying discussion for this website I will leave that to dhw and you. I care little about god or gods. I am no more an aphilatelist than I am an atheist. Though I am lapsed numismatician that has habit of collecting coins when I am abroad.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 22:44 (3366 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh: I will ask my question again:
> > > >>.... not to control our thoughts or actions.
> > > > Independent processes? Which processes are these?> 
> > > Exactly in what narrow sense are these processes independent?-> > David: I don't know how much clearer I can be. The brain has helpful processes (which you have mentioned) that allow us to use a biological machine to understand reality. we do not control these processes, but they do not act to form our opinions, thoughts and actions.-> Romansh: Do you realize you just denied cause and effect with your denial above?
> You could be clearer by painting a more coherent picture.-No I don't realize that. Please explain.-> 
> > > Romansh: In what sense are our thoughts/wills independent?
> > David: Because I create them, they are mine independently. I equate free will and intentionality.-> Again what is this "I" and are your intentions independent of cause? We keep dancing around this. But it is plain to pretty much everyone following this you think of yourself as independent of cause somehow.-What am 'I' caused by that you keep referring to?-
> > > Romansh: Do you actually think our eye movements are independent of cause? 
> > David: No, they are caused by the brain as built-in mechanisms to help us see reality properly. The brain is not a digital camera. What caused the brain to develop this ability is the underlying discussion of this website.-> Romansh: Then why cite them as an example being independent of cause?-They are not independent of cause. I said the brain caused them independent of my input.
> 
> Romansh: From a free will aspect I care little what caused our wills. It is more that they were caused and the resulting implications.
> 
> And as to the underlying discussion for this website I will leave that to dhw and you. I care little about god or gods. I am no more an aphilatelist than I am an atheist. Though I am lapsed numismatician that has habit of collecting coins when I am abroad.-No longer or never a stamp collector?

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Monday, September 07, 2015, 13:28 (3365 days ago) @ David Turell


> > > > Romansh: Do you actually think our eye movements are independent of cause? -> > > David: No, they are caused by the brain as built-in mechanisms to help us see reality properly. The brain is not a digital camera. What caused the brain to develop this ability is the underlying discussion of this website.-Vision tricks used by the brain to help us understand reality:-http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/43036/title/Seeing-Isn-t-Believing/- I study visual illusions of motion because seeing the errors that a system makes can help us to understand how that system works normally. Visual perception goes far beyond our retinal images, which provide only partial sensory information. We use our knowledge and expectations of the world to fill in the gaps, for instance, when an object is partly hidden. Ambiguous illusions that can be interpreted in two different ways, but not both ways at the same time, can also shed light on how we perceive the world around us.-***-In sum, illusions teach us that perception goes far beyond the information picked up by our senses. Perception is an indirect, interpretive top-down process that is not driven simply by stimulus patterns, but is instead a dynamic, active search for the best interpretation of the available sensory data.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 15:15 (3366 days ago) @ romansh

ROMANSH: When I first started playing the free will game on the AgnosticWeb, here a few years ago I wanted to define free will in terms similar to something like ... the ability to act or make choices independently of the environment. You and dhw insisted on putting in a consciousness component. I understand why, but this definitely causes a quagmire of confusion.-I have tried to stay out of this discussion partly because we have already played your game several times, and partly because I am currently very pressed for time, but I will exercise what may or may not be my free will to register a protest and also to put forward a proposition. The protest first: yet again you have defined free will as the ability to act or make choices independently of the environment and the universe. (The universe is mentioned in your essay, but was also in your earlier definition.) You know as well as I do that nothing in the universe can be independent of the universe. That may be a reason for rejecting the concept, but I doubt if any believer in free will would expect to be able to flap his arms and fly just because he wants to. However, you like playing games, and so your trick is to offer a definition that makes free will impossible. I can't remember the definition I offered last time we discussed this subject, but it was probably along the lines of: “The ability to make one's own conscious choices within given constraints.” (Those are the constraints imposed by the environment and our own limitations.) We cannot make choices unless we are aware of what is to be chosen and of what actions are or are not possible within those constraints. Awareness is consciousness, and unless you wish to pretend that while deciding what to write in your next post, you are not aware of this website or the points you are going to respond to, or the games you now hope to play, I see no reason why you should regard it as a quagmire. The quagmire is the source, mechanics and nature of consciousness, but that is a different subject.-The rest of your argument seems to me to be perfectly feasible, so in my view you really don't need any philosophical convolutions. Of course we are all subject to cause and effect, and so our choices are dependent on factors beyond our own control: chemical, hereditary, environmental, educational etc. In this sense, we do not have free will, as we do not make our own conscious choices. -The proposition: if I remember rightly, last time we discussed this I made the (unanswered) point that all these factors go to form our identity (though this is never complete, since it continues to develop with every new experience). Even if what makes “me” may be beyond “my” control, nevertheless it is me, and so when I make my choices, “I” alone am responsible for them. In this sense, I may be said to have free will: I make my own conscious choices within given constraints. I would therefore suggest that the answer to the question of whether we have free will or not depends on the level at which we wish to consider it. Our instincts tell us that we have it, because it is our self and nothing else that makes the decisions, but our intellect tells us that our choices have been fashioned for us by conditions over which we have no control.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 16:35 (3366 days ago) @ dhw
edited by romansh, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 17:26

The protest first: yet again you have defined free will as the ability to act or make choices independently of the environment and the universe. (The universe is mentioned in your essay, but was also in your earlier definition.) You know as well as I do that nothing in the universe can be independent of the universe. 
So dhw, what are the ramifications of every object and energy being determined by either in a mechanistic way or in some probabilistic quantum way? -And please do this before we re-enter our semantic debate on what we mean by free will. 
> That may be a reason for rejecting the concept, but I doubt if any believer in free will would expect to be able to flap his arms and fly just because he wants to.
Again this is a trite and irrelevant rejoinder. I have said before that just because there may be a physical restrain eg handcuffs this is irrelevant to the free will discussion.
> However, you like playing games, and so your trick is to offer a definition that makes free will impossible. I can't remember the definition I offered last time we discussed this subject, but it was probably along the lines of: “The ability to make one's own conscious choices within given constraints.” 
The problem here is we enter the consciousness quagmire and the semantic debate of choice. But I will let it pass for the moment. Assuming we do make our "own" conscious choices, are these choices independent of cause? Above you have suggested it is impossible? And ultimately is this not what we are talking about when we discuss free will?-> (Those are the constraints imposed by the environment and our own limitations.) We cannot make choices unless we are aware of what is to be chosen and of what actions are or are not possible within those constraints.
Does a river choose its path across a plain? In one sense no ie a conscious choice, but I have no way of verifying what consciousness is for a river and how aware it is?-In the same way does my consciousness make choices that are not a result of some interesting and perhaps as yet undiscovered physics? We can dissect David's dualism and suggest consciousness is not part of the equation ... but then does this dualistic consciousness respond to cause and effect. David says he believes in cause and effect, so that makes it tough to see how David's consciousness is actually dualistic.-> Awareness is consciousness, and unless you wish to pretend that while deciding what to write in your next post, you are not aware of this website or the points you are going to respond to, or the games you now hope to play, I see no reason why you should regard it as a quagmire. The quagmire is the source, mechanics and nature of consciousness, but that is a different subject.
Actually I find I am not aware of what I am writing - except in a historical sense. I have that awareness. -We can debate what is and is not consciousness all you want - that is why it is a quagmire. eg Susan Blackmore does not think she is conscious now. I understand why she might think that; to others it is a complete anathema 
> 
> The rest of your argument seems to me to be perfectly feasible, so in my view you really don't need any philosophical convolutions. Of course we are all subject to cause and effect, and so our choices are dependent on factors beyond our own control: chemical, hereditary, environmental, educational etc. In this sense, we do not have free will, as we do not make our own conscious choices. -Actually I don't think it is convoluted at all. For me it is perfectly straight forward. When you say In this sense, we do not have free will what are the ramifications of this? Do you actually believe what you just said?-> Even if what makes “me” may be beyond “my” control, nevertheless it is me, and so when I make my choices, “I” alone am responsible for them. In this sense, I may be said to have free will: I make my own conscious choices within given constraints. I would therefore suggest that the answer to the question of whether we have free will or not depends on the level at which we wish to consider it. Our instincts tell us that we have it, because it is our self and nothing else that makes the decisions, but our intellect tells us that our choices have been fashioned for us by conditions over which we have no control.-When you make choices "I" alone am responsible for them. I am not sure how you can say this. It is a complete non-sequitur bearing in mind bearing what you have just apparently agreed to. What we have just done is drawn some arbitrary box around a person and said (to varying degrees no doubt) we will ignore outside influences: known, unknown, subliminal etc. But in a sense you are right ... if my house were subject to flooding I would control the flooding by a dam or a levy. I would hold the topography and rainfall events responsible for the flooding. What I do is ignore the sun and its contribution to the rain. -If we are reduced to arguments from instinct then we are in deep trouble, scientifically and philosophically.-Can I suggest you read the Self Illusion by Bruce Hood, we can then maybe discuss this in a bit more depth.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 17:16 (3366 days ago) @ romansh

dhw' original definition ...
> An entity's conscious ability to control its decision-making process within given constraints.-What do we mean by an entity ... does it imply computers have a chance? If bacteria have intelligence do they have a consciousness?-Then we have the quagmire word 'conscious' ... -Control ??? If I subliminally influence dhw to give a certain reply and dhw believes he gave the reply under his own conscious control does dhw have free will?-Exactly what do we mean the decision-making process? Who or what is making the decision process? Does that what have control? -Within given constraints???-The original thread
http://www.agnosticweb.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=4162#p4171

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 18:57 (3366 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh: dhw' original definition ...
> > An entity's conscious ability to control its decision-making process within given constraints.
> 
> What do we mean by an entity ... does it imply computers have a chance? If bacteria have intelligence do they have a consciousness?-Computers in Penrose's and my position will never be conscious. Bacteria do not have intelligence, but operate from intelligent information. 
> 
> 
> 
> Romansh:Control ??? If I subliminally influence dhw to give a certain reply and dhw believes he gave the reply under his own conscious control does dhw have free will?-I don't think your questions have a 'subliminal quality'. Theoretically this is a stretch.-> 
> Romansh: Exactly what do we mean the decision-making process? Who or what is making the decision process? Does that what have control? -My answer is m controlling my brain's thoughts.-> 
> The original thread
> http://www.agnosticweb.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=4162#p4171

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 19:57 (3366 days ago) @ David Turell

Computers in Penrose's and my position will never be conscious. Bacteria do not have intelligence, but operate from intelligent information. 
The good news is that you and Penrose will never be able to provide evidence for your position. -I can claim a computer is not conscious, what evidence can I bring to bear for this position?
 
> I don't think your questions have a 'subliminal quality'. Theoretically this is a stretch.
I never claimed I have David.
Notice the if statement. Also how would we know? Your expert opinion? -> My answer is m controlling my brain's thoughts.
I presume you meant "I'm". What exactly is this "I"?

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 20:33 (3366 days ago) @ romansh

Computers in Penrose's and my position will never be conscious. Bacteria do not have intelligence, but operate from intelligent information.
 
> Romansh;
The good news is that you and Penrose will never be able to provide evidence for your position. 
> 
> I can claim a computer is not conscious, what evidence can I bring to bear for this position?-What can be proven either way, unless a computer suddenly produces something which was not initiated by a software program?
> 
> > Romansh: I don't think your questions have a 'subliminal quality'. Theoretically this is a stretch.
> I never claimed I have David.-You proposed that in your answer to dhw, or I can't read.-> > > David: My answer is m controlling my brain's thoughts.-> Romansh: I presume you meant "I'm". What exactly is this "I"?-No, it should read 'my controlling' but its the same meaning. My answer is my sense of self. which for me works to manage my life. Again we are back to my consciousness.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 18:38 (3366 days ago) @ romansh


> Romansh: In the same way does my consciousness make choices that are not a result of some interesting and perhaps as yet undiscovered physics? We can dissect David's dualism and suggest consciousness is not part of the equation ... but then does this dualistic consciousness respond to cause and effect. David says he believes in cause and effect, so that makes it tough to see how David's consciousness is actually dualistic.-My problem is that I am not sure, based on the NDE studies, whether the brain is a receiver or only a sole creator of consciousness. You have not opened yourself up to those considerations, simply out of hand I think, so therefore you have not confused yourself, but you need that information to fully see my quandary.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Monday, September 07, 2015, 19:40 (3365 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh, my post to you contained the answers to nearly every question you have asked. You seem to respond to individual sentences instead of considering their context. I explained precisely why according to my definition we do NOT have free will (“we are all subject to cause and effect, and so our choices are dependent on factors beyond our own control” etc.), and yet you ask repeatedly whether our choices are independent of various causes! I went on to offer you a “proposition” that incorporates the cause and effect argument but according to my definition still enables us to believe that we DO have free will (see below). My definition allows for both sides, whereas yours automatically excludes one, which is rather like an atheist proving his point by defining God as a figment of the human imagination.
 
A few details: if you wish to discuss free will, an agreed definition is essential. Whether rivers, bacteria or computers are conscious or not, is irrelevant to whether free will exists. If we humans have it, it exists, regardless of whether other forms of existence have it or not. The cause and effect argument against it applies to all forms of existence anyway. As regards consciousness, you “...find I am not aware of what I am writing - except in a historical sense. I have that awareness.” I don't know what you mean by “historical sense”. If you are not aware of what you are writing, or of the personal and environmental restrictions involved when you make a choice, I suggest you seek help as soon as possible! Might you perhaps be confusing this awareness with knowledge of how your thoughts formulate themselves, i.e. the source and nature of consciousness as opposed to its existence? -Thank you for digging out my original definition (“an entity's conscious ability to control its decision-making process within given constraints”) which I am still happy with. As regards “an entity”, see above re other forms of consciousness (I would not like to exclude our fellow animals); for subliminal influences and what controls the decision-making process, see above re cause and effect; “given constraints” are those “imposed by the environment and our own limitations”. You wrote: “If we are reduced to arguments from instinct then we are in deep trouble, scientifically and philosophically.” What I presented was not an argument from instinct but a rational argument to explain the instinct, but perhaps I did not make it clear enough, so I will try again below. (However, on a note of general worldly wisdom, I can think of many spheres of life in which I'd trust instinct more than science and philosophy!)
 
As regards Bruce Hood, The Self Illusion, I wish I had time to read the thousand and one books I am advised to read. However, here again is the “proposition”. On the cause and effect level, I do not have free will. That is agreed. On a different level (what I called the instinctive as opposed to the intellectual), one can argue that although my self is composed of factors beyond my control (“chemical, hereditary, environmental, educational etc.”), it is still the person I call “me”. My consciousness, experiences, opinions, decisions etc. are mine and whatever has influenced them does not mean they are not mine. Therefore, I have the ability to make my own conscious choices, or I have the conscious ability to control my decision-making process. Perhaps you can just give me a brief résumé of why this is unacceptable to you.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Monday, September 07, 2015, 23:56 (3365 days ago) @ dhw

Lets forget about free will and its definitions for the moment.
> On the cause and effect level, I do not have free will. That is agreed. On a different level (what I called the instinctive as opposed to the intellectual), one can argue that although my self is composed of factors beyond my control (“chemical, hereditary, environmental, educational etc.”-What are the ramifications for you and society in general, that result from every atom every fundamental particle, scrap of energy moving/reacting/interacting/whatever as a result of cause and effect?-Now for me it does not mean the unfolding of the universe is necessarily ordained or the patterns that form are destined; but it does mean they are determined. -What are the consequences here dhw?-I'm on the road again ... so my presence may be erratic

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Tuesday, September 08, 2015, 17:30 (3364 days ago) @ romansh
edited by dhw, Tuesday, September 08, 2015, 17:48

ROMANSH: Lets forget about free will and its definitions for the moment.
What are the ramifications for you and society in general, that result from every atom every fundamental particle, scrap of energy moving/reacting/interacting/whatever as a result of cause and effect?
Now for me it does not mean the unfolding of the universe is necessarily ordained or the patterns that form are destined; but it does mean they are determined. 
What are the consequences here dhw?
I'm on the road again ... so my presence may be erratic -Alas, it's not just your presence that may be erratic. In response to your own post, I have explained why I do not accept your definition of free will, have offered you my own, have given you two reasoned approaches to the question of whether free will exists or not, and have questioned your concept of awareness. Your reply to all this is to say I should forget it “for the moment”. Why can't you answer now? Instead, I should focus on personal and social ramifications of cause and effect, and distinguish between “ordained, “destined” and “determined”, as if you know something I don't know which will somehow render my arguments invalid. “Erratic” would be an understatement for your mode of discussion. So let's forget about forgetting about free will and its definitions, and let's have a response to the points I have raised in response to your own arguments.
 
Meanwhile, have fun on the road, please be aware of any dangers, and make good use of your ability to make conscious choices within given constraints.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Thursday, September 10, 2015, 03:21 (3363 days ago) @ dhw

ROMANSH: Lets forget about free will and its definitions for the moment.
> What are the ramifications for you and society in general, that result from every atom every fundamental particle, scrap of energy moving/reacting/interacting/whatever as a result of cause and effect?
> Now for me it does not mean the unfolding of the universe is necessarily ordained or the patterns that form are destined; but it does mean they are determined. 
> What are the consequences here dhw?
> I'm on the road again ... so my presence may be erratic 
> 
> Alas, it's not just your presence that may be erratic. In response to your own post, I have explained why I do not accept your definition of free will, have offered you my own, have given you two reasoned approaches to the question of whether free will exists or not, and have questioned your concept of awareness. Your reply to all this is to say I should forget it “for the moment”. Why can't you answer now? Instead, I should focus on personal and social ramifications of cause and effect, and distinguish between “ordained, “destined” and “determined”, as if you know something I don't know which will somehow render my arguments invalid. “Erratic” would be an understatement for your mode of discussion. So let's forget about forgetting about free will and its definitions, and let's have a response to the points I have raised in response to your own arguments.
> 
> Meanwhile, have fun on the road, please be aware of any dangers, and make good use of your ability to make conscious choices within given constraints.-Let us ignore definitions for the moment. Let us assume you have free will, whatever it is.
Try looking at the consequences of your position that everything is a result of cause and effect ... every atom, energy packet etc ...

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Thursday, September 10, 2015, 11:42 (3362 days ago) @ romansh

ROMANSH: Lets forget about free will and its definitions for the moment.
What are the ramifications for you and society in general, that result from every atom every fundamental particle, scrap of energy moving/reacting/interacting/whatever as a result of cause and effect?
Now for me it does not mean the unfolding of the universe is necessarily ordained or the patterns that form are destined; but it does mean they are determined. 
What are the consequences here dhw?
I'm on the road again ... so my presence may be erratic -Dhw: Alas, it's not just your presence that may be erratic. In response to your own post, I have explained why I do not accept your definition of free will, have offered you my own, have given you two reasoned approaches to the question of whether free will exists or not, and have questioned your concept of awareness. Your reply to all this is to say I should forget it “for the moment”. Why can't you answer now? Instead, I should focus on personal and social ramifications of cause and effect, and distinguish between “ordained, “destined” and “determined”, as if you know something I don't know which will somehow render my arguments invalid. “Erratic” would be an understatement for your mode of discussion. So let's forget about forgetting about free will and its definitions, and let's have a response to the points I have raised in response to your own arguments. 
Meanwhile, have fun on the road, please be aware of any dangers, and make good use of your ability to make conscious choices within given constraints. -ROMANSH: Let us ignore definitions for the moment. Let us assume you have free will, whatever it is. Try looking at the consequences of your position that everything is a result of cause and effect...every atom, energy packet etc...-You have quoted my post, totally ignored it, and repeated precisely the same non-response to all the arguments I have put forward (Sept. 6 and 7) in reply to your earlier posts! If you are unable to defend your definition of free will, unable to defend your position on awareness, and unable to cope with the two concepts I have already outlined in direct response to your arguments concerning cause and effect (one eliminating free will, and the other making it possible), then I fear I shall not be accompanying you along your winding road.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Tuesday, September 15, 2015, 14:03 (3357 days ago) @ dhw

dhw … If you are unable to defend your definition of free will, unable to defend your position on awareness, and unable to cope with the two concepts I have already outlined in direct response to your arguments concerning cause and effect (one eliminating free will, and the other making it possible), then I fear I shall not be accompanying you along your winding road.
>> “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”
>>> “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
>> “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master - - that's all.”
But more seriously. There seem to be three general schools of thought when it comes to free will. Lower case libertarians who think determinism is false or at least not applicable to human interactions and perhaps some other entities. Then there are the so called hard determinists (I am one) who see cause and effect everywhere and humans cannot escape its clutches. And finally there are the compatibilists and or soft determinists who redefine free will in some so that it does actually exist. This seems to the accepted case eg in Daniel Dennett's book Elbow Room: The Varieties of Free Will Worth Having. Wikipedia also recognizes the issue
> In contrast, compatibilists hold that free will is compatible with determinism. Some compatibilists even hold that determinism is necessary for free will, arguing that choice involves preference for one course of action over another, requiring a sense of how choices will turn out Compatibilists thus consider the debate between libertarians and hard determinists over free will vs determinism a false dilemma. Different compatibilists offer very different definitions of what "free will" even means, and consequently find different types of constraints to be relevant to the issue. Classical compatiblists considered free will nothing more than freedom of action, considering one free of will simply if, had one counterfactually wanted to do otherwise, one could have done otherwise without physical impediment. Contemporary compatibilists instead identify free will as a psychological capacity, such as to direct one's behavior in a way responsive to reason. And there are still further different conceptions of free will, each with their own concerns, sharing only the common feature of not finding the possibility of determinism a threat to the possibility of free will]
This led James to describe compatibilism as a wretched subterfuge and described it as soft determinism; he meant it as a slight on compatibilists. Kant described it as a quagmire of evasion.-Now I don't know whether I have defended my ‘hard' deterministic definition sufficiently for you or not. Note I simply use determinism in the sense of cause and effect, no more no less.-So what are the consequences of every atom, fundamental particle or energy responding in either a mechanical or probabilistic way with respect to free will?

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Tuesday, September 15, 2015, 18:33 (3357 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh: But more seriously. There seem to be three general schools of thought when it comes to free will. Lower case libertarians who think determinism is false or at least not applicable to human interactions and perhaps some other entities. Then there are the so called hard determinists (I am one) who see cause and effect everywhere and humans cannot escape its clutches. And finally there are the compatibilists and or soft determinists who redefine free will in some so that it does actually exist. This seems to the accepted case eg in Daniel Dennett's book Elbow Room: The Varieties of Free Will Worth Having. Wikipedia also recognizes the issue
> > In contrast, compatibilists hold that free will is compatible with determinism. Some compatibilists even hold that determinism is necessary for free will, arguing that choice involves preference for one course of action over another, requiring a sense of how choices will turn out Compatibilists thus consider the debate between libertarians and hard determinists over free will vs determinism a false dilemma. Different compatibilists offer very different definitions of what "free will" even means, and consequently find different types of constraints to be relevant to the issue. Classical compatiblists considered free will nothing more than freedom of action, considering one free of will simply if, had one counterfactually wanted to do otherwise, one could have done otherwise without physical impediment. >Contemporary compatibilists instead identify free will as a psychological capacity, such as to direct one's behavior in a way responsive to reason. And there are still further different conceptions of free will, each with their own concerns, sharing only the common feature of not finding the possibility of determinism a threat to the possibility of free will]
 
 
> So what are the consequences of every atom, fundamental particle or energy responding in either a mechanical or probabilistic way with respect to free will?-With a minimal background in philosophy, I find from your discussion my position, which I have placed in bold letters. I don't understand your strong determinism which seems to imply I am not in control of my intentions, despite the fact that I understand my source of being comes from the energy of the universe. I have been given my control of me.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Tuesday, September 15, 2015, 22:37 (3357 days ago) @ David Turell

With a minimal background in philosophy, I find from your discussion my position, which I have placed in bold letters. I don't understand your strong determinism which seems to imply I am not in control of my intentions, despite the fact that I understand my source of being comes from the energy of the universe. I have been given my control of me.-So we seem to end up in some sort of semantic misunderstanding. It would appear a hard determinist's definition may be fair enough after all.-Nevertheless the problem remains, regardless of what name we give it. The problem being if cause and effect is true, then every fundamental particle that makes up the thing called me is a consequence of prior events then this has certain consequences for how I might view myself. And this will be true for every larger structure that is composed of these fundamental particles. This should even be true for psychological events that we and most co Paton lists might point to.-For instance if I went to get a psychologist's help, I would fully expect that she would fully expect my current condition is a result of past events - experience or physical. And she would try to nudge me in a future direction, her advice would be based on her past experience. Whether or not I take on her advice would depend on my past conditioning.-So what are the ramifications for you, given that you believe that every particle within your body responds in a deterministic way?-Looking forward to you considered reply.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 00:38 (3357 days ago) @ romansh


> Romansh: So what are the ramifications for you, given that you believe that every particle within your body responds in a deterministic way?
> 
> Looking forward to you considered reply.-I think we are making progress. The determinism you refer to is in the aspects of physical chemistry that govern the reactions of molecules in my cells. Those molecules are under the control of DNA and the layers of controls in the genome to provide appropriate expression of the information in DNA. The neurons of my brain are part of that physical chemistry, and they are endowed with the ability to provide independent thought, the storage of useful information, and the ability to collate all of those mental processes into determinative actions which are under my self control. The brain can also provide new neurons and axon/dendrite/synapses to allow my brain to grow new knowledge, motor abilities, and memories. The underlying processes of electric transmission and synapse modifications are all to the purpose of allowing me the independence of thought and action that I have. The deterministic operations of the physical chemistry of my neurons allows all of this and does not imply any control over my independent mental state.-The ball is in your court.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Friday, September 18, 2015, 19:10 (3354 days ago) @ David Turell

I think we are making progress. The determinism you refer to is in the aspects of physical chemistry that govern the reactions of molecules in my cells. -This statement is incomplete David.-> ... they are endowed with the ability to provide independent thought, the storage of useful information, and the ability to collate all of those mental processes into determinative actions which are under my self control.-Independent thought? I question this assertion. Are not your thoughts shaped by your receiver? If so how can they be independent? -> The brain can also provide new neurons and axon/dendrite/synapses to allow my brain to grow new knowledge, motor abilities, and memories. The underlying processes of electric transmission and synapse modifications are all to the purpose of allowing me the independence of thought and action that I have.-Another assertion my friend.-> The deterministic operations of the physical chemistry of my neurons allows all of this and does not imply any control over my independent mental state.
It is not just physical chemistry ... a convenient classification in the education in science. It is all cause and effect ... which is the bailiwick of science.-> The ball is in your court.
Actually I think you swiped at the ball and missed it completely. The ball is in the fencing behind you. :-)

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Saturday, September 19, 2015, 01:15 (3354 days ago) @ romansh

David: I think we are making progress. The determinism you refer to is in the aspects of physical chemistry that govern the reactions of molecules in my cells. 
> 
> Romansh: This statement is incomplete David.-I disagree, of course. My neurons are used at my command to create whatever it is I wish.
> 
> > ... they are endowed with the ability to provide independent thought, the storage of useful information, and the ability to collate all of those mental processes into determinative actions which are under my self control.
> 
> Romansh: Independent thought? I question this assertion. Are not your thoughts shaped by your receiver? If so how can they be independent? -On the contrary, I used my mind to create my thoughts, as supplied by my brain. The receiver issue is a notion to explain NDE's.
> 
> > David: The brain can also provide new neurons and axon/dendrite/synapses to allow my brain to grow new knowledge, motor abilities, and memories. The underlying processes of electric transmission and synapse modifications are all to the purpose of allowing me the independence of thought and action that I have.
> 
> Romansh: Another assertion my friend.-Which I stand by.
> 
> > David: The deterministic operations of the physical chemistry of my neurons allows all of this and does not imply any control over my independent mental state.-> Romansh: It is not just physical chemistry ... a convenient classification in the education in science. It is all cause and effect ... which is the bailiwick of science.-I still maintain all cause and effect is in the purposeful function of the neurons, which I control.
> 
> > David: The ball is in your court.-> Romansh: Actually I think you swiped at the ball and missed it completely. The ball is in the fencing behind you. :-)-No, you didn't realize we are playing doubles and my partner dhw returned it to your court.;-)

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Wednesday, September 16, 2015, 14:08 (3356 days ago) @ romansh

ROMANSH: “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master - - that's all.” -[..............]-ROMANSH: Now I don't know whether I have defended my ‘hard' deterministic definition sufficiently for you or not. -Thank you for your admirable account of the three schools of thought regarding free will (too long to repeat here), but I'm afraid it does not provide any defence of your definition. Humpty Dumpty deliberately makes discussion impossible. As you are no doubt well aware, he goes on to talk of “impenetrability”, and on being asked what it means, he replies: “I meant by “impenetrability” that we've had enough of that subject.” Your definition (“the ability to act or make choices independently of the environment and the universe”) impenetrably ends all discussion on the subject, since nothing in the universe can be independent of the universe. The definition itself should be neutral, and you will certainly have noticed that the Wikipedia article you quote defines free will as “the ability to choose between different possible courses of action.” All the arguments that follow discuss whether and why we have or do not have that ability.-ROMANSH: Note I simply use determinism in the sense of cause and effect, no more no less.-In my post of 6 September at 15.15, I gave you the clearest possible response to your deterministic argument: “Of course we are all subject to cause and effect, and so our choices are dependent on factors beyond our own control: chemical, hereditary, environmental, educational etc. In this sense, we do not have free will, as we do not make our own conscious choices.” Your own Humpty Dumpty response was: “When you say In this sense, we do not have free will what are the ramifications of this? Do you actually believe what you just said?” Since our subject is the existence or not of free will, I did not wish to go into the psychological, social and moral ramifications of our not having free will, and yes, on this particular level of discussion I believe what I say. However, in your Humpty Dumpty way (I hope this doesn't sound rude, but I just love the reference!) you then totally ignored the second part of that post, in which I outlined another approach to the subject (very different from the one that David has just offered us), which I will repeat but also slightly expand at the end of this post. The point of course is that whether we think we have free will depends, as I wrote then, “on the level at which we wish to consider it.”
 
First, though, in relation to the consciousness that forms part of my own definitions (“the ability to make one's own conscious choices within given constraints” or “an entity's conscious ability to control its decision-making process within given constraints”), you wrote: “I find I am not aware of what I am writing - except in a historical sense.” I asked (7 September) what you meant by “historical sense”, and suggested that perhaps you were confusing the existence of this awareness with knowledge of how your thoughts formulate themselves. In my view, consciousness is integral to the question of whether free will exists or not. If you are a zombie, you will not have the conscious ability to choose, no matter what level we are at.-ROMANSH: So what are the consequences of every atom, fundamental particle or energy responding in either a mechanical or probabilistic way with respect to free will?-On this level, as already stated above, the consequences are that we do not have conscious control of our decisions, and you don't need me to spell out the psychological, social and moral ramifications of such a conclusion. However, as stated on 6 September, when I am conscious of a choice, the way in which I consciously make it is still uniquely mine and nobody else's, and the thoughts that accompany the process are uniquely mine and nobody else's, regardless of the influences that have made me what I am. (This fits in with the compatibilist interpretation of freedom as ‘not coerced', or 'not against my will'.) Therefore on this level, I do have conscious control of my decisions. This level can also encompass libertarianism, because although I cannot break the chain of cause and effect, nevertheless my “wilful” decisions themselves may create a new causal chain (= origination) which could have been different had I not made the conscious choice I did make. And so I can only repeat that for me the answer lies in the level at which you approach the subject of free will - which perhaps boils down to answering the question “free from what?”. In your uniquely Romanshic way, you have (freely or not freely) chosen the first level. In my uniquely dhw way, I (freely or not freely) accept both, as they both make equally good sense to me.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Thursday, September 17, 2015, 22:59 (3355 days ago) @ dhw
edited by romansh, Thursday, September 17, 2015, 23:15

If cause and effect are true then as you state:
> dhw .. the consequences are that we do not have conscious control of our decisions ... -then you go on:
>... when I am conscious of a choice, the way in which I consciously make it ...
So when we are supposedly conscious of a choice/decision it is a historical artifact of the forming events. 
> is still uniquely mine and nobody else's, and the thoughts that accompany the process are uniquely mine and nobody else's,
so what? This is not an issue.-> regardless of the influences that have made me what I am. (This fits in with the compatibilist interpretation of freedom as ‘not coerced',
if you have understood my previous posts, coercion is really irrelevant to the discussion.-> or 'not against my will'.) 
No one is arguing whether we have wills or not. The debate is on how they are formed.-
> Therefore on this level, I do have conscious control of my decisions. 
This I find to be an oxymoron given your first statement I quoted of yours, assuming you do really do accept cause and effect.->This level can also encompass libertarianism, because although I cannot break the chain of cause and effect, nevertheless my “wilful” decisions themselves may create a new causal chain (= origination) which could have been different had I not made the conscious choice I did make.
I don't think this is libertarianism as such. Not based on the copious amount of reading I have done on the subject. Ultimately it is a denial of cause and effect. It also goes by the contra causal free will and causa sui. A classical libertarian argument is that is it is god given, this recognizes the issue with cause and effect. James (a libertarian of "a quagmire of evasion" fame) argued for indeterminism understanding that compatibilism as a problem.-> And so I can only repeat that for me the answer lies in the level at which you approach the subject of free will - which perhaps boils down to answering the question “free from what?”. 
It is free from what? If my will is free from the vegetables growing in my vegetable patch, does that make my will free? -> In your uniquely Romanshic way, you have (freely or not freely) chosen the first level. In my uniquely dhw way, I (freely or not freely) accept both, as they both make equally good sense to me.
Actually it is not particularly unique. Freedom is a semantic game. If cause and effect are true then then any compatibilist definition is a semantic shell game, that you frequently accuse me off.-This may help
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Chapters/2013freewill.htm-I agree we can define things into and out of existence. Nevertheless if the underlying premises [cause and effect] are true, then there are problems for any compatibilist definition. But if a two millennia year old approach to what is and is not free will does not satisfy then I don't see any benefit in "defending" it; it is unnecessary. You may or may not agree with my definition, that is irrelevant. If you understand my definition, agree with the premises and agree there is no free will within this this structure, it behooves us do understand the consequences.

On point: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Friday, September 18, 2015, 14:04 (3354 days ago) @ romansh

An Economist article on what is consciousness and how does the brain seem to create it:-http://www.economist.com/news/science-brief/21664060-final-brief-our-series-looks-most-profound-scientific-mystery-all-one-"TMS of the temporoparietal junction also reduces someone's ability to empathise with the mental states of others. That suggests this part of the brain helps generate “theory of mind”—the ability to recognise that other creatures, too, have minds. Some see this link as more than coincidence. Seeking an evolutionary explanation for consciousness, they suggest that an animal which can model another's behaviour can gain an advantage by anticipating it. They further suggest that, since the only model available to a mind that wishes to understand another's is itself, a theory of mind necessarily requires self-awareness. In other words, consciousness.-***-"The nub of the hard problem, then, is to make this ineffability effable. Other fields of scientific endeavour circumvent ineffability with mathematics. No one can truly conceive of a light-year or a nanosecond, let alone extra dimensions or wave-particle duality, but maths makes these ideas tractable. No such short-cut invented so far can take a human inside the mind of a bat. Indeed, for all the sophistication of theory-of-mind it is difficult, as everyday experience shows, to take a human being inside the mind of another human being. The hard problem may thus turn out to be the impossible problem, the one that science can never solve. The Oracle at Delphi said, “know thyself.” Difficult. But a piece of cake compared with knowing others."-Comment: Brain damage damages consciousness, but that dos not remove the receiver concept. I know I am conscious. I make the assumption you are.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Friday, September 18, 2015, 16:45 (3354 days ago) @ romansh

ROMANSH: If cause and effect are true then as you state:
dhw .. the consequences are that we do not have conscious control of our decisions ... 
then you go on:
... when I am conscious of a choice, the way in which I consciously make it ...
So when we are supposedly conscious of a choice/decision it is a historical artifact of the forming events. -I do not accept your “supposedly”. For me, the concept of free will is inseparable from conscious choice/decision. I don't know what you mean by “historical artifact”, unless it's a roundabout way of saying that both the choice and the decision are subject to the chain of cause and effect, in which case I agree.-dhw...is still uniquely mine and nobody else's, and the thoughts that accompany the process are uniquely mine and nobody else's...
ROMANSH: so what? This is not an issue.-You also say that coercion is not relevant, and that my claim that on this level I have conscious control over my decisions is an oxymoron in view of my acceptance of the cause-effect argument. The individuality of the self (regardless of influences) is central to my second approach to the subject, and while I accept the validity of your own, I do not accept that it is the only valid one. You wrote: “I simply use determinism in the sense of cause and effect, no more or less” - and you are a determinist. By excluding other levels, of course you prove your point, just as you do with your definition of free will. You also wrote that the debate is on how our wills are formed. No it isn't. Originally it was on whether we have control over our decisions, and how our wills are formed (cause and effect) was the approach you chose, but now the subject has become whether freedom from cause and effect is the only criterion by which we can make a judgement. You say it is, I say it isn't, because on the second level, despite all influences, I can still say that I have the conscious ability to control my decision-making (my definition of free will). It is the age-old epistemological problem of different premises. -In passing and purely for information: I mentioned libertarianism and origination in this context, and you questioned the reference. The Oxford Companion to Philosophy defines origination as “the creation of new causal chains by free human choices” and it goes on to say that “libertarianism asserts that there are such genuine creations.” But I don't think we need to be sidetracked on definitions of what libertarians do or don't believe, and as we are both agnostics, I suggest we leave religion out of the discussion as well.-ROMANSH: This may help-http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Chapters/2013freewill.htm-I can see why you like her, as she also seems to operate on single levels. In terms of free will itself, the following is quite revealing (I was clearly echoing William James without realizing it!):-“James does not reject the possibility of free will, and his analysis of self is subtle. Yet, one hundred years before Wegner's research, he beautifully exposed the retrospective attributions we routinely give to an imagined self. ‘We' are said to deliberate, ‘we' decide, and those voluntary fiats, reasons and motives are ours. 
Wouldn't it be more honest to accept all these attributions for what they are, drop the notion of the self who decides, and simply let the competing ideas get on with it without interference? Might life even be easier, and making decisions less agonising, if we could? This is what I am suggesting.”-Why drop the notion of the self? (Perhaps she should change her name to Suzen.) The influences that shape the attributes are not the attributes themselves, so why is it more “honest” to regard them as an imagined self than as a self? And does she really think the ideas exist independently of the person that has them? She is welcome to switch off her awareness of her awareness of her awareness (levels again) if it makes her life easier, but that is her decision - or the decision of her competing ideas. I'm afraid that for me it still won't make the cause-and-effect approach any more valid than the identity approach.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Friday, September 18, 2015, 17:59 (3354 days ago) @ dhw
edited by romansh, Friday, September 18, 2015, 18:18

I do not accept your “supposedly”. For me, the concept of free will is inseparable from conscious choice/decision. I don't know what you mean by “historical artifact”, unless it's a roundabout way of saying that both the choice and the decision are subject to the chain of cause and effect, in which case I agree.-We should be discussing the properties of this supposed consciousness, not whether we have it or not. To use David's analogy is our brain more of a broadcaster than a receiver? If we accept that cause and effect are true, then our consciousness is at the end of the causal chain. So does this consciousness cause our actions and propagate the causal chain or is it simply an awareness (instrument panel view) of the workings of the brain? Either way it is part of the causal flux that is going on as the universe unfolds. 
 
> You also say that coercion is not relevant, and that my claim that on this level I have conscious control over my decisions is an oxymoron in view of my acceptance of the cause-effect argument.
Juxtapose your two statements dhw:
> we do not have conscious control of our decisions ... I do have conscious control of my decisions. 
Do you understand why I might think your position might contain an oxymoron?-> No it isn't. Originally it was on whether we have control over our decisions, and how our wills are formed (cause and effect) was the approach you chose, but now the subject has become whether freedom from cause and effect is the only criterion by which we can make a judgement. 
It is for me. And many other philosophers. -> You say it is, I say it isn't, because on the second level, despite all influences,
I will give an example. If you put me in handcuffs, this will limit the choices of actions I might take. But it does not affect what I might have wanted to do. I still have to make decisions on whether to struggle, escape or not. These are all determined by my surroundings past experiences and my perception of my capabilities.-> I can still say that I have the conscious ability to control my decision-making (my definition of free will). It is the age-old epistemological problem of different premises. -While you can say it, it does not make it true. Also you found you need to throw in consciousness there somewhere (and hence the quagmire) because machines too have the ability make decisions too. Of course you might claim machines do not have consciousness and we have no way of verifying this belief. 
 
> In passing and purely for information: I mentioned libertarianism and origination in this context, and you questioned the reference. The Oxford Companion to Philosophy defines origination as “the creation of new causal chains by free human choices” and it goes on to say that “libertarianism asserts that there are such genuine creations.” But I don't think we need to be sidetracked on definitions of what libertarians do or don't believe, and as we are both agnostics, I suggest we leave religion out of the discussion as well.-I included it because it was one that was readily available to mind. But libertarianism is relevant to god not necessarily religion. At its heart libertarianism suggests that each human being is an uncaused cause. Sound familiar?-> I can see why you like her, as she also seems to operate on single levels. In terms of free will itself, the following is quite revealing (I was clearly echoing William James without realizing it!):-I hope not too much as William James was a libertarian.
 
> “James does not reject the possibility of free will, and his analysis of self is subtle. Yet, one hundred years before Wegner's research, he beautifully exposed the retrospective attributions we routinely give to an imagined self. ‘We' are said to deliberate, ‘we' decide, and those voluntary fiats, reasons and motives are ours. 
> Wouldn't it be more honest to accept all these attributions for what they are, drop the notion of the self who decides, and simply let the competing ideas get on with it without interference? Might life even be easier, and making decisions less agonising, if we could? This is what I am suggesting.”
> 
> Why drop the notion of the self? 
cf drop the notion of the self who decides-> The influences that shape the attributes are not the attributes themselves, so why is it more “honest” to regard them as an imagined self than as a self? 
Because we draw an arbitrary line around something and call it a self. Admittedly it is a useful line.-> And does she really think the ideas exist independently of the person that has them? 
No I don't but people don't exist independently either.-> She is welcome to switch off her awareness of her awareness of her awareness (levels again) if it makes her life easier, but that is her decision - or the decision of her competing ideas. 
I would argue she is every bit as aware as you if not more so.
> I'm afraid that for me it still won't make the cause-and-effect approach any more valid than the identity approach.
I suppose you prefer the identity approach while thinking the cause and effect are true. -Go figure; as they say in north America.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Saturday, September 19, 2015, 12:30 (3353 days ago) @ romansh

Dhw: I do not accept your “supposedly”. For me, the concept of free will is inseparable from conscious choice/decision. 
ROMANSH: We should be discussing the properties of this supposed consciousness, not whether we have it or not. -Why? You refuse to accept the link between consciousness and free will, and even claim to be unaware of what you write. I can only repeat that in my view zombies cannot have free will even in the context of my identity approach. The properties, nature and source of consciousness are a different subject.-ROMANSH: To use David's analogy is our brain more of a broadcaster than a receiver? If we accept that cause and effect are true, then our consciousness is at the end of the causal chain. So does this consciousness cause our actions and propagate the causal chain or is it simply an awareness (instrument panel view) of the workings of the brain? Either way it is part of the causal flux that is going on as the universe unfolds.-I don't know how often I have to repeat that I accept the cause and effect argument. Whether the brain is a broadcaster or a receiver makes no difference to the two approaches that I have been trying to discuss with you.-ROMANSH: Juxtapose your two statements dhw:
we do not have conscious control of our decisions ... I do have conscious control of my decisions. 
Do you understand why I might think your position might contain an oxymoron?-Forgive me, Romansh, but this is getting silly. I have offered you two DIFFERENT approaches to the subject of free will. Once more: the cause and effect approach leads to the conclusion that we do not have free will. The identity approach leads to the conclusion that we do have it. I find both approaches equally valid. Similarly, when I consider different arguments, I can accept that God may exist or God may not exist. That is why I am an agnostic. Seeing both sides of an argument does not constitute an oxymoron.-DHW: No it [the subject of our discussion] isn't. Originally it was on whether we have control over our decisions, and how our wills are formed (cause and effect) was the approach you chose, but now the subject has become whether freedom from cause and effect is the only criterion by which we can make a judgement. 
Romansh: It is for me. And many other philosophers. -So do you and those who share your beliefs have a monopoly on the truth?
 
ROMANSH: I will give an example. If you put me in handcuffs, this will limit the choices of actions I might take. But it does not affect what I might have wanted to do. I still have to make decisions on whether to struggle, escape or not. These are all determined by my surroundings past experiences and my perception of my capabilities.-This example incorporates the given constraints in my definition (handcuffs, my surroundings, my capabilities), awareness of the conditions and options (essential to the consciousness that forms part of my definition and not yours), but surprisingly mentions only one of the causes governing my decision (past experiences); you forgot to mention that according to your definition my decision also depends on the existence of the universe. I accept all the various causes related to my decision as being beyond my control. On the other hand, my experiences are mine and nobody else's etc. etc. and my decisions will be taken with the aid of a consciousness that is mine and mine alone.
 
As regards machines, I personally do not believe they are conscious, but it makes no difference either way. If humans have free will, free will exists, regardless of mechanical consciousness or non-consciousness. “We have no way of verifying this belief”. Good, you have discovered the great pitfall of epistemology. There are certain areas of existence where we have no way of verifying our beliefs. We can only consider the different approaches and draw our subjective conclusions. You are only prepared to consider one approach and so you draw your one unverifiable, subjective conclusion.-ROMANSH: We draw an arbitrary line around something and call it a self. Admittedly it is a useful line.
 
I don't regard what I know of my “self” to be arbitrary, and I don't even think of my identity in terms of drawing a line. I am a mass of actuals and potentials, and of countless influences, some of which I am not even aware of, which constitute the cause and effect argument against free will. But I am still me etc. etc. and so “I can still say that I have the conscious ability to control my decision-making (my definition of free will). It is the age-old epistemological problem of different premises.”
ROMANSH: While you can say it, it does not make it true.-Of course not. And while you can say cause and effect are the only criterion for judging whether we have free will or not, it does not make it true. If we knew what was true, we would have nothing to discuss.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, September 20, 2015, 00:18 (3353 days ago) @ dhw

Why? You refuse to accept the link between consciousness and free will, and even claim to be unaware of what you write. I can only repeat that in my view zombies cannot have free will even in the context of my identity approach. The properties, nature and source of consciousness are a different subject.-Quagmire of consciousness! But as written you have got it wrong. I happen to think our perceptions of consciousness are not what they seem. I also think consciousness is unnecessary in a definition of free will. That our actions are totally a result of cause and effect (conscious or otherwise) would cause a moment of pause for some. Apparently not all though.-> I don't know how often I have to repeat that I accept the cause and effect argument. Whether the brain is a broadcaster or a receiver makes no difference to the two approaches that I have been trying to discuss with you.-> Forgive me, Romansh, but this is getting silly. I have offered you two DIFFERENT approaches to the subject of free will. Once more: the cause and effect approach leads to the conclusion that we do not have free will. The identity approach leads to the conclusion that we do have it. I find both approaches equally valid. Similarly, when I consider different arguments, I can accept that God may exist or God may not exist. That is why I am an agnostic. Seeing both sides of an argument does not constitute an oxymoron.-Yes I find it silly too. You seem to hold two different views as true that are diametrically opposed.-I thought you wanted to leave god out of it? But are you agnostic about a traditional view of Christianity? I understand we can accept we can truly not "know" that an angel came to Mary and foretold of an immaculate birth of God's son, fair enough. And you may not hold an active belief that this is true, but do you to any degree actively disbelieve this version of events?
 
> So do you and those who share your beliefs have a monopoly on the truth?
No more than you do dhw. But determinist view point has been the crux of the issue for more than two millennia. -Of course you may be determined to define free will as you want (or will). This too is determined consciously or otherwise.
 
 
> This example incorporates the given constraints in my definition (handcuffs, my surroundings, my capabilities), awareness of the conditions and options (essential to the consciousness that forms part of my definition and not yours), but surprisingly mentions only one of the causes governing my decision (past experiences); you forgot to mention that according to your definition my decision also depends on the existence of the universe. 
My surroundings are not independent of the universe. Unless you claim otherwise?-> I accept all the various causes related to my decision as being beyond my control. On the other hand, my experiences are mine and nobody else's etc. etc. and my decisions will be taken with the aid of a consciousness that is mine and mine alone.-With the aid of consciousness? You have yet to establish consciousness does anything? I keep asking you about this. You seem certain that it is your consciousness that is doing something. I am far more agnostic about this than you are.
 
> As regards machines, I personally do not believe they are conscious, but it makes no difference either way. If humans have free will, free will exists, regardless of mechanical consciousness or non-consciousness. “We have no way of verifying this belief”. 
Again I am more agnostic about this than you.
> Good, you have discovered the great pitfall of epistemology. There are certain areas of existence where we have no way of verifying our beliefs. We can only consider the different approaches and draw our subjective conclusions. You are only prepared to consider one approach and so you draw your one unverifiable, subjective conclusion.-I am more than prepared to consider different approaches. But there is a stumbling block of determinism. In your definition you completely ignore determinism as though it is irrelevant to the subject of free will.-> I don't regard what I know of my “self” to be arbitrary, and I don't even think of my identity in terms of drawing a line. I am a mass of actuals and potentials, and of countless influences, some of which I am not even aware of, which constitute the cause and effect argument against free will. 
And where do these potentials and influences begin and end?-> But I am still me etc. etc. and so “I can still say that I have the conscious ability to control my decision-making (my definition of free will). It is the age-old epistemological problem of different premises.”
And yet you hold the bolded bit as untrue if cause and effect are true.-> Of course not. And while you can say cause and effect are the only criterion for judging whether we have free will or not, it does not make it true. If we knew what was true, we would have nothing to discuss.
Again they are not the only criterion; but they, at least, should be included in the discussion/definition.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Sunday, September 20, 2015, 14:28 (3352 days ago) @ romansh

ROMANSH: I happen to think our perceptions of consciousness are not what they seem. I also think consciousness is unnecessary in a definition of free will. That our actions are totally a result of cause and effect (conscious or otherwise) would cause a moment of pause for some. Apparently not all though.-If you don't think you are aware of what you are writing, and of the conditions and options open to you when you make a decision, we can agree to disagree. Yes, our actions are totally the result of cause and effect (a valid argument against free will), but the notion that my identity is mine alone, regardless of all influences, and therefore gives me the ability to make my own conscious choices within given constraints would cause a moment of pause for some. Apparently not all though.
 
ROMANSH: You seem to hold two different views as true that are diametrically opposed.-That is because the concept we are discussing is open to (at least) two different and in my view equally valid interpretations. The will is not free from cause and effect, but as part of one's personal identity it is free from coercion other than that imposed by given constraints (such as the environment and the obvious restrictions on our capabilities).
 
ROMANSH: I thought you wanted to leave god out of it? 
I do and shall. I referred to agnosticism only in order to illustrate the fact that some of us can see both sides of an argument. -ROMANSH: ...determinist view point has been the crux of the issue for more than two millennia.-And for more than two millennia there has been opposition to determinism. I maintain that the clash is based on different interpretations of what we mean by free will. 
 
Dhw: This example incorporates the given constraints in my definition (handcuffs, my surroundings, my capabilities) etc.
ROMANSH: My surroundings are not independent of the universe. Unless you claim otherwise?-Of course not. Everything is dependent on the universe, which is why your definition is skewed (see below).-Dhw: I accept all the various causes related to my decision as being beyond my control. On the other hand, my experiences are mine and nobody else's etc. etc. and my decisions will be taken with the aid of a consciousness that is mine and mine alone.
ROMANSH: With the aid of consciousness? You have yet to establish consciousness does anything? I keep asking you about this. You seem certain that it is your consciousness that is doing something. -You keep uttering vague hints about perception of consciousness not being what it seems, and you are not aware of what you are writing, and I keep telling you that for me free will entails making choices, which in turn entails being aware of the conditions (including given constraints) and options involved in those choices. Consciousness doesn't “do” anything - it is the awareness without which we cannot make our choices. -Dhw: You are only prepared to consider one approach and so you draw your one unverifiable, subjective conclusion.
ROMANSH: I am more than prepared to consider different approaches. But there is a stumbling block of determinism. In your definition you completely ignore determinism as though it is irrelevant to the subject of free will.-Again this is getting silly. The definition defines what we mean by free will, which put in its simplest form is the ability to make choices. The discussion then concerns whether or not we have that ability. Your definition tells us that we do not have it, because nothing is independent of the universe. In my view the definition should be neutral.-Dhw: I am a mass of actuals and potentials, and of countless influences, some of which I am not even aware of, which constitute the cause and effect argument against free will. 
ROMANSH: And where do these potentials and influences begin and end?-I would have to know the past and future history of the universe to answer that. You quote me and ignore what you quote: that constitutes “the cause and effect argument against free will.” -Dhw: But I am still me etc. etc. and so “I can still say that I have the conscious ability to control my decision-making (my definition of free will). It is the age-old epistemological problem of different premises.”
ROMANSH: And yet you hold the bolded bit as untrue if cause and effect are true.-This is getting sillier and sillier. I do not hold it as untrue. I hold both propositions as true, depending on which approach to the subject we adopt. -Dhw: And while you can say cause and effect are the only criterion for judging whether we have free will or not, it does not make it true. If we knew what was true, we would have nothing to discuss.
ROMANSH: Again they are not the only criterion; but they, at least, should be included in the discussion/definition.-“Again”? This is the first time you have acknowledged that there might be other criteria. Could this be progress? Cause and effect have always been part of the discussion, but the definition should be neutral. Once more: cause and effect approach = we do not have the ability; identity approach = we do. My definition allows for both approaches.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Sunday, September 20, 2015, 14:59 (3352 days ago) @ dhw

A group of psychologists try to mathematically use quantum equations to understand human decision-making:-http://phys.org/news/2015-09-youre-irrational-quantum-probabilistic-human.html-"'I think the mathematical formalism provided by quantum theory is consistent with what we feel intuitively as psychologists. Quantum theory may not be intuitive at all when it is used to describe the behaviors of a particle, but actually is quite intuitive when it is used to describe our typically uncertain and ambiguous minds."-"She used the example of Schrödinger's cat—the thought experiment in which a cat inside a box has some probability of being alive or dead. Both possibilities have potential in our minds. In that sense, the cat has a potential to become dead or alive at the same time. The effect is called quantum superposition. When we open the box, both possibilities are no longer superimposed, and the cat must be either alive or dead.-"With quantum cognition, it's as if each decision we make is our own unique Schrödinger's cat.-"As we mull over our options, we envision them in our mind's eye. For a time, all the options co-exist with different degrees of potential that we will choose them: That's superposition. Then, when we zero in on our preferred option, the other options cease to exist for us.-"The task of modeling this process mathematically is difficult in part because each possible outcome adds dimensions to the equation. For instance, a Republican who is trying to decide among the candidates for U.S. president in 2016 is currently confronting a high-dimensional problem with almost 20 candidates. Open-ended questions, such as "How do you feel?" have even more possible outcomes and more dimensions.-"With the classical approach to psychology, the answers might not make sense, and researchers have to construct new mathematical axioms to explain behavior in that particular instance. The result: There are many classical psychological models, some of which are in conflict, and none of which apply to every situation.-Comment: I'm very simple. I equate free will with freedom of intentionality as my mind works. And I must be conscious to do that choosing. I can't make choices when unconscious or sleeping. Dreams then become an interesting factor in the discussion.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by BBella @, Sunday, September 20, 2015, 18:07 (3352 days ago) @ David Turell

A group of psychologists try to mathematically use quantum equations to understand human decision-making:
> 
> http://phys.org/news/2015-09-youre-irrational-quantum-probabilistic-human.html
... 
>
> Comment: I'm very simple. I equate free will with freedom of intentionality as my mind works. And I must be conscious to do that choosing. I can't make choices when unconscious or sleeping. Dreams then become an interesting factor in the discussion.-You may not be able to or have had the opportunity to, but many that have had NDE's and lucid dreamers have made conscious choices. I have talked with a few that have experienced NDE's that made conscious choices, and I am a lucid dreamer (not always) that many times make conscious choices while dreaming.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Sunday, September 20, 2015, 18:36 (3352 days ago) @ BBella

Comment: I'm very simple. I equate free will with freedom of intentionality as my mind works. And I must be conscious to do that choosing. I can't make choices when unconscious or sleeping. Dreams then become an interesting factor in the discussion.
> 
> Bbella: You may not be able to or have had the opportunity to, but many that have had NDE's and lucid dreamers have made conscious choices. I have talked with a few that have experienced NDE's that made conscious choices, and I am a lucid dreamer (not always) that many times make conscious choices while dreaming.-Very interesting information, and since I am not a lucid dreamer I did not know that. I am sometimes aware as I dream, but I always wake up and don't engineer further dreaming.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Monday, September 21, 2015, 20:05 (3351 days ago) @ BBella

DAVID: I'm very simple. I equate free will with freedom of intentionality as my mind works. And I must be conscious to do that choosing. I can't make choices when unconscious or sleeping. Dreams then become an interesting factor in the discussion.

BBELLA: You may not be able to or have had the opportunity to, but many that have had NDE's and lucid dreamers have made conscious choices. I have talked with a few that have experienced NDE's that made conscious choices, and I am a lucid dreamer (not always) that many times make conscious choices while dreaming.-Thank you for this. It adds yet another layer to the many levels of consciousness that we experience, not to mention the levels of control. NDEs and dualism offer a different dimension to our discussion on free will, but I don't think they change the basic premises Romansh and I have been discussing: even a separate mind will still be subject to cause and effect (= no free will), but it will still be our own unique mind, regardless of all influences (= free will).-I'm pleased to have support from both of you as regards conscious choices being integral to a definition, but I don't actually know why Romansh objects to it, since it does not make the slightest difference to the two premises above. My point is that unless we are aware of a choice, we will not use the faculty we call free will (whether it is free or not.) Perhaps one of you (or someone else) can explain the problem to me.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Monday, September 21, 2015, 20:41 (3351 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: I'm pleased to have support from both of you as regards conscious choices being integral to a definition, but I don't actually know why Romansh objects to it, since it does not make the slightest difference to the two premises above. My point is that unless we are aware of a choice, we will not use the faculty we call free will (whether it is free or not.) Perhaps one of you (or someone else) can explain the problem to me.-To me cause and effect have nothing to do with my sense of free will. I know forces in the universe allow life. Life evolved and our brains have consciousness, all contingent on the fine tuning. So what!!! Cause and effect created my neurons, but I control my neurons, my thoughts, my ruminations, my plans, my intentions. I have a free will of intentionality. That is all that counts. Romansh's contentions, based it seems on Blackmore's teachings, are overlabored, with no basis in my appreciation of reality. How many angels can dance on the pin head? Romansh seems to be conducting his life meaningfully in a fruitful fashion, even though he seems to question his own controls. Strange. I have found the whole discussion meaningless for me as a former body mechanic.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by BBella @, Tuesday, September 22, 2015, 17:30 (3350 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I'm very simple. I equate free will with freedom of intentionality as my mind works. And I must be conscious to do that choosing. I can't make choices when unconscious or sleeping. Dreams then become an interesting factor in the discussion.
> 
> BBELLA: You may not be able to or have had the opportunity to, but many that have had NDE's and lucid dreamers have made conscious choices. I have talked with a few that have experienced NDE's that made conscious choices, and I am a lucid dreamer (not always) that many times make conscious choices while dreaming.
> 
> Thank you for this. It adds yet another layer to the many levels of consciousness that we experience, not to mention the levels of control. NDEs and dualism offer a different dimension to our discussion on free will, but I don't think they change the basic premises Romansh and I have been discussing: even a separate mind will still be subject to cause and effect (= no free will), but it will still be our own unique mind, regardless of all influences (= free will).
> 
> I'm pleased to have support from both of you as regards conscious choices being integral to a definition, but I don't actually know why Romansh objects to it, since it does not make the slightest difference to the two premises above. My point is that unless we are aware of a choice, we will not use the faculty we call free will (whether it is free or not.) Perhaps one of you (or someone else) can explain the problem to me.-I take Romanash to be saying (which I don't think you disagree) and correct me if I'm wrong, Romanash, that all our present choices are made with all our history in mind (cause and effect). Our memories (subconscious included) and DNA determine our present choices. If any of these change (organ implants, blood transfusion or memory loss) our choices will be influenced. So again, cause and effect. So how free is free will? As free as a baby in a play pen full of toys. What determines what toy the baby chooses has everything to do with the child's history. -I noticed before my 88 year old father passed recently, that his memories had began to wane because of dementia and he began making different choices than he normally had in the past concerning foods, clothing, etc. It baffled and literally disturbed my aging mom to see him make different choices since she had been with him for over 66 years and so was as predictable as the clock. So her own memories of how things always were, determining how they should be, was getting in her way of accepting the situation - making both their experiences more difficult. -I noticed Dad was making choices in the moment, seemingly according to his senses, without the constraints of awareness of his past. But in reality, somewhere inside him, there was memory and DNA that determined even those choices he made. Cause and effect was still in operation even though he had lost his habitual self.-This may not have answered your question or may not represent Romanash's perspective, but is what came to mind.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Tuesday, September 22, 2015, 23:02 (3350 days ago) @ BBella

Bbella: This may not have answered your question or may not represent Romanash's perspective, but is what came to mind.-I think your analysis is correct as to how historical cause and effect provide input to our free will.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Wednesday, September 23, 2015, 12:28 (3349 days ago) @ BBella

Dhw: I'm pleased to have support from both of you as regards conscious choices being integral to a definition, but I don't actually know why Romansh objects to it, since it does not make the slightest difference to the two premises above. My point is that unless we are aware of a choice, we will not use the faculty we call free will (whether it is free or not.) Perhaps one of you (or someone else) can explain the problem to me.-BBELLA: I take Romanash to be saying (which I don't think you disagree) and correct me if I'm wrong, Romanash, that all our present choices are made with all our history in mind (cause and effect). Our memories (subconscious included) and DNA determine our present choices. If any of these change (organ implants, blood transfusion or memory loss) our choices will be influenced. So again, cause and effect. So how free is free will? As free as a baby in a play pen full of toys. What determines what toy the baby chooses has everything to do with the child's history.
[...] 
This may not have answered your question or may not represent Romanash's perspective, but is what came to mind.-Thank you for this excellent summary (and the sad example of your father) of the cause-and-effect case against free will, which I accept completely. But my question is why Romansh objects to the inclusion of consciousness in the definition. For the life of me, I cannot see how free will (if it exists) can come into play unless one is conscious of what is to be chosen/decided, what are the options, what are the restrictions and what may be the future consequences. This does not in any way invalidate the cause-and-effect argument, but is a key factor in the argument that even if we are not conscious of all the influences that determine our decisions, those influences constitute the self that makes them. I am me, regardless of what has formed me, and so this “I” has the ability to make conscious choices.
 
The importance of consciousness and different levels of consciousness is illustrated by your father's case. What you called his “habitual self” would have been the one with full consciousness, which allows for free will according to the identity criterion. Once consciousness is affected by disease, drugs, alcohol, hypnosis etc., it becomes extremely difficult for us to assess the degree of “freedom” - often used as a defence in court. You say he had lost awareness of his past, and his senses seemed to have taken over, so I guess you would have said he was not “himself” any more. But I would certainly not like to be pinned down to drawing borderlines. And so, while acknowledging the validity of the cause-and-effect argument (no free will), I would confine my identity concept (free will) to circumstances in which there is no “coercion” by influences beyond those that constitute the given constraints of nature and the environment.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, September 26, 2015, 18:24 (3346 days ago) @ dhw

But my question is why Romansh objects to the inclusion of consciousness in the definition. For the life of me, I cannot see how free will (if it exists) can come into play unless one is conscious of what is to be chosen/decided, what are the options, what are the restrictions and what may be the future consequences.
I don't object to including consciousness in the definition, though I do think it is unnecessary and it leads us to go round in circles.-What I do object to is leaving cause and effect out of the definition. This leads to all our circular arguments.-It leads to the contradictory statements like:
>> dhw at different times - we do not have conscious control of our decisions ... I do have conscious control of my decisions. 
We then go into deeper nonsense like both statements are true but it depends on one's point of view.-I would argue strongly that one or both points of view must be wrong!-I think Tony summarized my position.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Sunday, September 27, 2015, 17:06 (3345 days ago) @ romansh

Dhw: But my question is why Romansh objects to the inclusion of consciousness in the definition. For the life of me, I cannot see how free will (if it exists) can come into play unless one is conscious of what is to be chosen/decided, what are the options, what are the restrictions and what may be the future consequences.-ROMANSH: I don't object to including consciousness in the definition, though I do think it is unnecessary and it leads us to go round in circles.-You think it is unnecessary and I think it is essential, especially in view of the borderline cases (involving levels of consciousnesss) I have outlined in the post to BBella which you have quoted above. If, as you tell us, you are only conscious “historically”, i.e. after the fact, it is small wonder you cannot even contemplate the possibility of free will. 
 
ROMANSH: What I do object to is leaving cause and effect out of the definition. This leads to all our circular arguments.-If freedom from cause and effect must be part of the definition, so must the compatibilist freedom from coercion by other individuals, social conventions and institutions. Both of you would then be demanding a definition that supports your view, and nobody can say that either of these criteria is correct. The argument is only circular because you keep coming back to the cause and effect criterion, ignoring the “coercion” alternative and dismissing individual identity on the vague grounds that the self is not what it seems although it is real (see my post of 21 September at 19.40).
 
ROMANSH: It leads to the contradictory statements like:
dhw at different times - we do not have conscious control of our decisions ... I do have conscious control of my decisions. 
We then go into deeper nonsense like both statements are true but it depends on one's point of view.-Not “but” - BECAUSE it depends on one's point of view. You do not seem to have grasped the fact that any issue on which there is no general consensus will offer contradictory arguments according to the subjectivity of the viewpoint. Human nature is good/bad because...Life is comic/tragic because...Religion is beneficial/harmful because...Science is/is not our most reliable means of access to truth because...We have/we do not have the ability to make conscious choices because...Of course it all depends on your point of view. But you prefer to ignore the opposing arguments and merely quote the opposing conclusions as if somehow the contradiction invalidated the arguments (or at least those you don't like).
 
ROMANSH: I would argue strongly that one or both points of view must be wrong!-I have noticed the strength of your tone, and I would argue just as strongly that there is no authority on earth who can make such a judgement. However, if you think both viewpoints could be wrong, let me ask you once again what other criteria you would consider to be valid.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Monday, September 28, 2015, 00:47 (3345 days ago) @ dhw

You think it is unnecessary and I think it is essential, especially in view of the borderline cases (involving levels of consciousnesss) I have outlined in the post to BBella which you have quoted above. If, as you tell us, you are only conscious “historically”, i.e. after the fact, it is small wonder you cannot even contemplate the possibility of free will. -Then we can compromise and have both - consciousness and "cause and effect".-> If freedom from cause and effect must be part of the definition, so must the compatibilist freedom from coercion by other individuals, social conventions and institutions. Both of you would then be demanding a definition that supports your view, and nobody can say that either of these criteria is correct. The argument is only circular because you keep coming back to the cause and effect criterion, ignoring the “coercion” alternative and dismissing individual identity on the vague grounds that the self is not what it seems although it is real (see my post of 21 September at 19.40).-Coercion is not the issue ... Compatibilists can redefine free will however they will. In fact that is all they can do. The central issue around cause and effect does not go away regardless. There are consequences to everything but everything being a result of cause and effect. -We can dance around consciousness all day. -There are consequences for us if we truly believe everything we do is a result of cause and effect. -> Not “but” - BECAUSE it depends on one's point of view. You do not seem to have grasped the fact that any issue on which there is no general consensus will offer contradictory arguments according to the subjectivity of the viewpoint. Human nature is good/bad because...Life is comic/tragic because...Religion is beneficial/harmful because...Science is/is not our most reliable means of access to truth because...We have/we do not have the ability to make conscious choices because...Of course it all depends on your point of view. But you prefer to ignore the opposing arguments and merely quote the opposing conclusions as if somehow the contradiction invalidated the arguments (or at least those you don't like).-This argument is post modernism gone raving mad. Reality depends on my point of view. Really? This is nonsense. Reality is independent of consensus. I might have incomplete access to that reality and the access I do have might be skewed. -But I do think the scientific method is a more accurate method of chasing after the truth than other methods. I am not saying other methods should not be used, but that any conclusions we might come to, it would be sensible to verify them using the scientific method. -This Clarence Darrow quote describes my point of view ...
>> Chase after the truth like all hell and you'll free yourself, even though you never touch its coat tails.
I might argue with word free, but the intent is fine with me.
 
> I have noticed the strength of your tone, and I would argue just as strongly that there is no authority on earth who can make such a judgement. However, if you think both viewpoints could be wrong, let me ask you once again what other criteria you would consider to be valid.-I ignore opposing arguments? I certainly don't go down every rabbit hole that is presented. I have asked you a number of times to describe what are the consequences of everything being a result of cause and effect. As far as I can tell you avoided answering this question. So it would behoove you not to accuse others of such activities. -dhw you do not know what I may or not contemplate. I believed for fifty or so years in free will. So exactly how am I ignoring these arguments?-Also I would caution you against reading 'tone' in this format. Otherwise I might be tempted to express my opinion based on incomplete information

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Monday, September 28, 2015, 19:12 (3344 days ago) @ romansh
edited by dhw, Thursday, October 01, 2015, 11:10

Dhw: If freedom from cause and effect must be part of the definition, so must the compatibilist freedom from coercion by other individuals, social conventions and institutions. Both of you would then be demanding a definition that supports your view, and nobody can say that either of these criteria is correct. The argument is only circular because you keep coming back to the cause and effect criterion, ignoring the “coercion” alternative and dismissing individual identity on the vague grounds that the self is not what it seems although it is real (see my post of 21 September at 19.40).
ROMANSH: Coercion is not the issue ... Compatibilists can redefine free will however they will. In fact that is all they can do. The central issue around cause and effect does not go away regardless. There are consequences to everything but everything being a result of cause and effect. -Who says coercion is not the issue? And why “redefine”? Since when and by whom has free will been definitively defined as the ability to make choices independently of the universe? That is YOUR definition, which makes nonsense of the whole concept. If the universe wasn't here, we wouldn't be here, so we wouldn't have any choices. Do you really think anyone will disagree with that? But the fact that the cause and effect argument is irrefutable does not make your definition of free will the only valid definition. And that is the issue here.
 
ROMANSH: There are consequences for us if we truly believe everything we do is a result of cause and effect. -Of course there are. There are also consequences for us if we truly believe that we have the ability to make our own conscious choices regardless of all the influences that have gone to make up the self that takes the decisions. You persist in hammering home the consequences of your definition of free will, and refuse to acknowledge that it can be defined another way.
 
Dhw: You do not seem to have grasped the fact that any issue on which there is no general consensus will offer contradictory arguments according to the subjectivity of the viewpoint. Human nature is good/bad because...Life is comic/tragic because...Religion is beneficial/harmful because...Science is/is not our most reliable means of access to truth because...We have/we do not have the ability to make conscious choices because...Of course it all depends on your point of view. But you prefer to ignore the opposing arguments and merely quote the opposing conclusions as if somehow the contradiction invalidated the arguments (or at least those you don't like).-ROMANSH: This argument is post modernism gone raving mad. Reality depends on my point of view. Really? This is nonsense. Reality is independent of consensus. I might have incomplete access to that reality and the access I do have might be skewed.-I did not say reality depended on our point of view. We do not know reality. In response to your post on the illusion of self, I summed it up as follows: “The fact that my fluid self may not be what it seems applies to the whole of reality. None of us can know the objective truth.” It is not reality but our interpretation of reality that depends on our subjective point of view, though where there is consensus (e.g. in some tested scientific matters), our interpretation becomes intersubjective. I view all the opposing arguments listed above as valid, in accordance with whichever subjective viewpoint I adopt, and I would be surprised if you did not share at least some of these contradictory conclusions. Yes, I view your one-sided definition of free will as a skewed approach to reality. It is the incompleteness of our access that makes it impossible to claim that one view is right and the other wrong.
 
ROMANSH: I ignore opposing arguments? I certainly don't go down every rabbit hole that is presented. -It appears that all arguments other than cause and effect are rabbit holes you are not prepared to go down. WHY do you reject the compatibilist definition of free will as conscious choices made without coercion from other individuals, social conventions and institutions? WHY do you not accept that our identity is ours alone regardless of the influences (causes and effects) that have helped to form it? What authority do you have for insisting that cause and effect are the only criterion by which one can judge whether free will exists or not? -ROMANSH: I have asked you a number of times to describe what are the consequences of everything being a result of cause and effect. As far as I can tell you avoided answering this question. So it would behoove you not to accuse others of such activities.-If everything is the result of cause and effect, it can be argued that according to one interpretation of free will, we do not have it, and therefore we have no moral responsibility for our decisions. What else do you want me to say? It can also be argued that our individual identity, regardless of all the influences that have helped to shape it, participates in the chain of cause and effect and also has the power to influence it through conscious decisions which are ours alone and are not made for us by any outside forces. Whether we think we have what is known as “free will” therefore depends on how we define the term.

A Sense of Free Will: a new essay

by David Turell @, Tuesday, October 20, 2015, 01:09 (3323 days ago) @ dhw

This article points out the appearance of free will in animals and humans. Can it be measured?-http://aeon.co/magazine/philosophy/free-will-is-back-and-maybe-we-can-measure-it/-"It is often thought that science has shown that there is no such thing as free will. If all things are bound by the same impersonal cosmic laws, then (the story goes) our paths are no freer than those of rocks tumbling down a hill. But this is wrong. Science is giving us a very powerful and clear way to understand freedom of the will. We have just been looking for it in the wrong place. Instead of using an electron microscope or a brain-scanner, we should go to the zoo.-"There we will find animals using a wide range of skills that give them options for what to do - skills that we share. These abilities have evolved through natural selection because they are essential for survival: animals need to weigh different factors, explore available options, pursue new alternatives when old strategies don't work. Together these abilities give all animals, including humans, an entirely natural free will, one that we need precisely because we are not rocks. We are complex organisms actively pursuing our interests in a changing environment.-***-"As we start to understand, and learn to measure, the capacities that underlie behavioural freedom, we can begin to put this natural free will on a scale. Paralleling the measurement of intelligence, we could call it the freedom quotient: FQ. Such a scale should give us new insights into the factors that hinder or enhance our efforts to shape our lives. In other words, FQ should tell us how free we are - and how we can become even more so.-***-"Yet all around us, every day, we see a very natural kind of freedom - one that is completely compatible with determinism. It is the kind that living things need to pursue their goals in a world that continually presents them with multiple possibilities. Our intuitive sense that we have free will is based upon this behavioural freedom. And unlike the old mystical idea, this natural ability to shape our future is central to our own wellbeing and that of society. This is what FQ sets out to capture.-***-"If you are able to imagine a number of options for yourself, weigh them with regard to your interests, and then commit yourself to the one that seems the best, you are exercising your free will. Of course, all of these are tasks you might be able to perform better or worse. If you have an abundant imagination, for example, and can think of 20 potential places to forage whereas others can only think of 10, then you have more options and will therefore be freer. If, on the other hand, you are weak-willed, then options that require you to delay gratification - such as walking 10 miles to the juiciest blackberry bush - might be closed, and so you will be less free. These are the variations that an FQ scale should reflect.-***-"Even when theologians use the term ‘free will', they are still referring to something very close to what FQ describes. It is with our will, they might say, that we choose to give into temptation or instead to take the path of righteousness. I agree. The difference is that in the Christian tradition, our wills must be absolutely free - not caused by anything such as genes or environment - as only then could it possibly be warranted to send sinners to hell for eternity. With FQ, by contrast, we can recognise that even the freest will is still limited, and that everyone is ultimately a part of life's great web of causes and connections."-Comment: Obviously I agree with him. I suggest reading the whole essay. I've just snatched out bits.

A Sense of Free Will: a new essay

by dhw, Tuesday, October 20, 2015, 19:07 (3322 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: This article points out the appearance of free will in animals and humans. Can it be measured?-http://aeon.co/magazine/philosophy/free-will-is-back-and-maybe-we-can-measure-it/-QUOTE: "With FQ, by contrast, we can recognise that even the freest will is still limited, and that everyone is ultimately a part of life's great web of causes and connections."-David's comment: Obviously I agree with him. I suggest reading the whole essay. I've just snatched out bits.-
The sentence I've quoted seems to me to gloss over the conflicting aspects of the subject, while much of the article focuses on the multiplicity of choices and not on why and how we make our choices, which lies at the heart of the debate. 
My view, as painstakingly expounded during the long-drawn-out discussion with Romansh, is that the whole subject revolves round (a) one's definition of free will, and (b) one's concept of freedom. As regards (a), I believe the definition must be neutral, allowing for both sides of the argument, e.g. the ability to make conscious choices within given constraints. As regards (b) we can argue as Romansh does that it means freedom from the chain of cause and effect which clearly has no end, and so our choices can always be traced back to causes beyond our control (in his definition, ultimately, the existence of the universe). No free will. But if we argue that it means freedom from coercion - e.g. by individuals or institutions - then we can say we have it. We can also argue that although our identity is influenced by countless factors beyond our control (cause and effect), nevertheless that identity is ours and ours alone, so it is not the influences (genes, upbringing, education etc.) that make the conscious choices, but the individual being that incorporates them all, and so individuals do have the ability to make conscious choices within given constraints. However, as before, I would not like to draw a strict borderline here, since there are circumstances in which certain types of constraint may lead to a change in a person's identity or levels of consciousness (e.g. illness or drugs), as movingly illustrated by the case of BBella's father.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 03:17 (3301 days ago) @ dhw

dhw It appears that all arguments other than cause and effect are rabbit holes you are not prepared to go down. 
For me they miss the point completely.-> dhw WHY do you reject the compatibilist definition of free will as conscious choices made without coercion from other individuals, social conventions and institutions? 
In a sense I don't. -> dhw WHY do you not accept that our identity is ours alone regardless of the influences (causes and effects) that have helped to form it? -Actually what I have said is that the self ... specifically an intrinsic self, is an illusion. WHY do you misrepresent what I have said?-> dhw What authority do you have for insisting that cause and effect are the only criterion by which one can judge whether free will exists or not? -The same authority you have for questioning my position. -It is almost as though you don't understand the issues here dhw.
WHY is this dhw?-> dhw But if we argue that it means freedom from coercion - e.g. by individuals or institutions -Ah ... this two thousand year old debate is simply a semantic misunderstanding. -OK in everyday vernacular "free will" is synonymous with not having a gun to my head fair enough. But plainly this is a philosophical discussion and we are plainly not discussing this trivial aspect of so called free will. -> dhw I believe the definition must be neutral, allowing for both sides of the argument-Yep when we define a tree ... we do so neutrally so as to give my metal thing in my workshop with rubber tyres and pedals a reasonable chance of being described as a tree. Plainly nonsense.-A definition must describe accurately the concept under discussion. I accept this can be difficult as all definitions are ultimately circular.-When we define something we do not do so neutrally. We do it accurately, or at least accurately as we can.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 15:29 (3300 days ago) @ romansh

Dhw: It appears that all arguments other than cause and effect are rabbit holes you are not prepared to go down. -ROMANSH: For me they miss the point completely.-Your definition of free will as “the ability to act or make choices independently of the environment and the universe” makes free will an impossibility. Your insistence that cause and effect are the only possible approach also makes free will an impossibility. On this level I therefore agree that free will is an impossibility!-As for the rest of your post: “In a sense” you don't reject the compatibilist definition of free will, but it isn't philosophical enough for you; you apparently do not dispute that our identity is ours alone regardless of the influences (causes and effects) that have helped to form it, but you believe the self to be an illusion, so presumably your belief somehow invalidates this particular approach; I agree that you have as much right to insist that cause and effect are the only possible criteria as I have to disagree with you; the two thousand year old debate is not based on a “semantic misunderstanding”, but on different views of what constitutes free will; you presumably consider your definition of free will to be accurate, and so you presumably continue to reject my own: “the ability to make conscious choices within given constraints.” -When we last corresponded on this issue, six weeks ago, I suggested that “whether we think we have what is known as “free will” ....depends on how we define the term”. Since I accept that your definition and your cause-and-effect approach eliminate free will, and since for you the compatibilist approach and my identity approach are rabbit holes that miss the point completely (the point presumably being that nothing is independent of cause and effect, the environment and the universe), I really think this discussion has now run its circular course.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 18:47 (3300 days ago) @ dhw

dhw:When we last corresponded on this issue, six weeks ago, I suggested that “whether we think we have what is known as “free will” ....depends on how we define the term”. Since I accept that your definition and your cause-and-effect approach eliminate free will, and since for you the compatibilist approach and my identity approach are rabbit holes that miss the point completely (the point presumably being that nothing is independent of cause and effect, the environment and the universe), I really think this discussion has now run its circular course.-I would have to fully agree, having followed this debate. Anything can be defined into or out of contention. To each his own.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Thursday, November 12, 2015, 19:12 (3299 days ago) @ David Turell

I would have to fully agree, having followed this debate. Anything can be defined into or out of contention. To each his own.-If this is true then all conversations here are pointless David. -Post modernism gone mad.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Thursday, November 12, 2015, 21:52 (3299 days ago) @ romansh

dhw: When we last corresponded on this issue, six weeks ago, I suggested that “whether we think we have what is known as “free will” ....depends on how we define the term”. Since I accept that your definition and your cause-and-effect approach eliminate free will, and since for you the compatibilist approach and my identity approach are rabbit holes that miss the point completely (the point presumably being that nothing is independent of cause and effect, the environment and the universe), I really think this discussion has now run its circular course-DAVID: I would have to fully agree, having followed this debate. Anything can be defined into or out of contention. To each his own.-ROMANSH: If this is true then all conversations here are pointless David.-“The ability to act or make choices independently of the environment and the universe” or “independently of cause” defines free will out of existence. I have offered a different definition (“the ability to make conscious choices within given constraints”, which you have misrepresented by equating compatibilist “coercion” with “given constraints” - not the same thing at all), but for you any other definition is inaccurate. Cause and effect is your chosen approach, and you reject other approaches as irrelevant. And so of course this conversation is pointless. I can only say, yes, Rom, according to your definition and your approach, there is no such thing as free will. According to my definition, you may be right, but it also allows for other approaches in defence of free will. The subjects of identity, the illusion of self, compatibilism and incompatibilism, consciousness have all been covered in the discussions 30 August - 28 September, which led to the same conclusion.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Friday, November 13, 2015, 00:21 (3299 days ago) @ dhw

dhw “The ability to act or make choices independently of the environment and the universe” or “independently of cause” defines free will out of existence.
I addressed this at least to some extent in my last post. This is false for the person who believes in contra causal or libertarian free will. This would be accurate for those of us who believe in cause and effect.-> dhw I have offered a different definition (“the ability to make conscious choices within given constraints”, which you have misrepresented by equating compatibilist “coercion” with “given constraints” - not the same thing at all), but for you any other definition is inaccurate. 
I may have got the wrong end of the stick here. But having said that what are the "given constraints"? Also I keep saying coercion is irrelevant to me, but you keep bringing it back up.-> dhw Cause and effect is your chosen approach,
Not just mine ... this is the basis of the determinism debate.
Compatibilism and some forms of libertarism say ultimately that determinism is somehow irrelevant to the debate. Are you suggesting that determinism is somehow irrelevant to the debate?-
> dhw According to my definition, you may be right, but it also allows for other approaches in defence of free will.-Actually I find your definition to a large extent defines free will into existence.
Do we make decisions? Plainly yes.
Are we conscious? For what you regard as consciousness (being aware and being able to explain a decision) the answer would be yes.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Friday, November 13, 2015, 13:12 (3298 days ago) @ romansh

dhw “The ability to act or make choices independently of the environment and the universe” or “independently of cause” defines free will out of existence.-ROMANSH: I addressed this at least to some extent in my last post. This is false for the person who believes in contra causal or libertarian free will. This would be accurate for those of us who believe in cause and effect.-We are going over and over and over the same old ground. Here is a definition of God: “A fantastic, fictional, made-up being believed by some silly idiots to have created the universe and life.” This is accurate for an atheist and false for a theist. That is what you have done in a less blatant manner with your definition of free will, and there is no room for discussion on whether God/free will exists or not because your definition allows only one conclusion. One can therefore only challenge your definition, which is pointless because for you it is the only accurate definition! Round we go!-dhw I have offered a different definition (“the ability to make conscious choices within given constraints”, which you have misrepresented by equating compatibilist “coercion” with “given constraints” - not the same thing at all), but for you any other definition is inaccurate. 
ROMANSH: I may have got the wrong end of the stick here. But having said that what are the "given constraints"? Also I keep saying coercion is irrelevant to me, but you keep bringing it back up.-You brought it up, by wrongly equating it with “given constraints”, which I explained to you in detail during our earlier discussion. They are the constraints imposed by Nature and by the environment. Even if I want to, I can't waggle my ears and fly (Nature). If I am in prison, I can't go for a walk in the country (environment). Coercion is part of the compatibilist approach: my choice is not forced on me by other people, institutions, conventions etc. The fact that it is irrelevant to you does not make it irrelevant to others. As with your definition, you are only prepared to consider your own cause-and-effect approach, and so there is no point to this discussion.
 
dhw Cause and effect is your chosen approach,
ROMANSH: Not just mine ... this is the basis of the determinism debate.
Compatibilism and some forms of libertarism say ultimately that determinism is somehow irrelevant to the debate. Are you suggesting that determinism is somehow irrelevant to the debate? -I have made it clear over and over and over again that I accept the determinist cause and effect argument, according to which there is no such thing as free will. But I also accept other approaches as both relevant and valid, because - yet again - the question of whether we do or do not have free will depends on how we define it, and subsequently on our approach to that definition. How many times would you like me to repeat this?-dhw According to my definition, you may be right, but it also allows for other approaches in defence of free will.
ROMANSH: Actually I find your definition to a large extent defines free will into existence.
Do we make decisions? Plainly yes.
Are we conscious? For what you regard as consciousness (being aware and being able to explain a decision) the answer would be yes.-If it's “to a large extent”, clearly there is still leeway, and in fact it offers complete leeway. It merely defines what I suspect most people would understand by the term. The question then has to be asked: do we have that ability? Your answer is that we do not, because the conscious choices are not ours: they are dictated to us by an endless chain of causes and effects which we do not control. Example: I consciously choose the chocolate ice cream instead of the vanilla. Your view: my choice is dictated by my taste buds, my upbringing, the fact that if the universe didn't exist, neither I nor ice cream would exist. You are quite right. Another view: my taste buds and my upbringing have resulted in ME, and so the choice is MINE, and the existence of ice cream and the universe are what gave rise to the choices but not what determined the choice. Another view (compatibilist): nobody and nothing is forcing me to choose the chocolate. If you define the subject out of existence, and if you dismiss all other approaches to the subject as irrelevant, then as David asks: “why have conversations at all?”

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, November 14, 2015, 04:31 (3298 days ago) @ dhw

dhw “why have conversations at all?”-I get the feeling you don't really understand the issues.-Another common test is ... could have I done otherwise?-For a choice I might be able to see several possibilities or courses of action. I feel like I can choose any of them ... I might even at the last moment choose an alternative I had not previously considered. But as I make the choice the question remains could I have done otherwise?-Now if my choice and subsequent action is a result of cause and effect then it is difficult to say I could have done otherwise. The constituent parts of my body respond to the chemistry and physics that make up the various processes going on in my brain.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Saturday, November 14, 2015, 05:49 (3297 days ago) @ romansh

dhw “why have conversations at all?”
> 
> Romansh: I get the feeling you don't really understand the issues.
> 
> Another common test is ... could have I done otherwise?
> 
> For a choice I might be able to see several possibilities or courses of action. I feel like I can choose any of them ... I might even at the last moment choose an alternative I had not previously considered. But as I make the choice the question remains could I have done otherwise?
> 
> Now if my choice and subsequent action is a result of cause and effect then it is difficult to say I could have done otherwise. The constituent parts of my body respond to the chemistry and physics that make up the various processes going on in my brain.-Those constituent parts don't control my ability to think and reason. My thoughts and reason are not material, but the chemistry and physics of my brain are, two different unexplained levels of reality from the brain. For my position, cause and effect, determinism don't apply.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Saturday, November 14, 2015, 14:31 (3297 days ago) @ romansh

dhw “why have conversations at all?”-ROMANSH: I get the feeling you don't really understand the issues.-How strange. I get the same feeling about yourself. You consider all definitions other than your own to be “inaccurate”, and you consider all approaches other than your own to be “irrelevant”. The issue is whether we do or do not have free will, and I get the feeling you do not really understand that the answer depends on the definition and the approach we adopt.-ROMANSH: Another common test is ... could have I done otherwise?
For a choice I might be able to see several possibilities or courses of action. I feel like I can choose any of them ... I might even at the last moment choose an alternative I had not previously considered. But as I make the choice the question remains could I have done otherwise?
Now if my choice and subsequent action is a result of cause and effect then it is difficult to say I could have done otherwise. The constituent parts of my body respond to the chemistry and physics that make up the various processes going on in my brain.-The above is a direct repetition of the argument that if our choices are dictated by cause and effect, we do not have free will (= determinism). Quite right. However, there are other approaches to the subject which you consider to be irrelevant, just as you consider your definition to be the only accurate one. How many more times are we going to draw these circles?
 
DAVID: Those constituent parts don't control my ability to think and reason. My thoughts and reason are not material, but the chemistry and physics of my brain are, two different unexplained levels of reality from the brain. For my position, cause and effect, determinism don't apply.-Dualism is another approach to the subject, which I have discussed under “Different in degree or kind”. In view of all its religious implications, it is one that I have tried to avoid in this context, not least because eventually it would lead to subjects such as predestination. However, it shows that belief or disbelief in the existence of free will depends on the definition and the approach. I have now chosen to repeat this three times in one post. Could I have done otherwise? Do I have the ability to do otherwise? The answer seems to depend on the definition and the approach, doesn't it? Ts, ts, there I go again.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Saturday, November 14, 2015, 15:43 (3297 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: How many more times are we going to draw these circles?-You and Romansh certainly go round and round, with no agreement on definitions and no end in sight.
> 
> DAVID: Those constituent parts don't control my ability to think and reason. My thoughts and reason are not material, but the chemistry and physics of my brain are, two different unexplained levels of reality from the brain. For my position, cause and effect, determinism don't apply.
> 
> dhw: Dualism is another approach to the subject, ... In view of all its religious implications, it is one that I have tried to avoid in this context, not least because eventually it would lead to subjects such as predestination.-When I was agnostic I still accepted the immateriality of thought and consciousness without all this worry about religious implications. In my 'conversion' I never looked at or used religious precepts. You are still comparing yourself to religious thought from your childhood.-> dhw: However, it shows that belief or disbelief in the existence of free will depends on the definition and the approach. I have now chosen to repeat this three times in one post. Could I have done otherwise? Do I have the ability to do otherwise? The answer seems to depend on the definition and the approach, doesn't it? Ts, ts, there I go again.-Yes, yes, yes!

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Sunday, November 15, 2015, 13:45 (3296 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: When I was agnostic I still accepted the immateriality of thought and consciousness without all this worry about religious implications. In my 'conversion' I never looked at or used religious precepts. You are still comparing yourself to religious thought from your childhood.-The problem is not the immateriality of thought and consciousness but, once again, the SOURCE of thought and consciousness. If it is not material, and if NDEs are what the patients think they are, there is a whole “spiritual” world beyond that of materials. Religion is not only about precepts: its basic premise is the existence of a god or gods, and so the existence of an immaterial mind is absolutely central to your belief in a God of “tough love” who started evolution - though you sometimes seem to be wavering towards creationism - in order to produce humans (who are different “in kind”). However, these questions are not a “worry” for me. On the contrary, I find them fascinating and stimulating. (See also "Different in degree...")

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Sunday, November 15, 2015, 15:49 (3296 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: When I was agnostic I still accepted the immateriality of thought and consciousness without all this worry about religious implications. In my 'conversion' I never looked at or used religious precepts. You are still comparing yourself to religious thought from your childhood.
> 
> dhw: The problem is not the immateriality of thought and consciousness but, once again, the SOURCE of thought and consciousness. If it is not material, and if NDEs are what the patients think they are, there is a whole “spiritual” world beyond that of materials.-Of course.-> dhw. Religion is not only about precepts: its basic premise is the existence of a god or gods, and so the existence of an immaterial mind is absolutely central to your belief in a God of “tough love” who started evolution --Again you are debating with me by pointing to religious precepts. I arrived at my concept of a universal consciousness as the only viable solution to the issue of SOURCE, recognizing that religions had established an anthropomorphic, human friendly God in the West and a divine level of Reality in the East, which I do not accept. Is God friendly? Adler said 50/50, yet he eventually converted to Catholicism.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Monday, November 16, 2015, 12:56 (3295 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: When I was agnostic I still accepted the immateriality of thought and consciousness without all this worry about religious implications. In my 'conversion' I never looked at or used religious precepts. You are still comparing yourself to religious thought from your childhood.-dhw: The problem is not the immateriality of thought and consciousness but, once again, the SOURCE of thought and consciousness. If it is not material, and if NDEs are what the patients think they are, there is a whole “spiritual” world beyond that of materials.-DAVID: Of course.-dhw. Religion is not only about precepts: its basic premise is the existence of a god or gods, and so the existence of an immaterial mind is absolutely central to your belief in a God of “tough love” who started evolution --DAVID: Again you are debating with me by pointing to religious precepts. I arrived at my concept of a universal consciousness as the only viable solution to the issue of SOURCE, recognizing that religions had established an anthropomorphic, human friendly God in the West and a divine level of Reality in the East, which I do not accept. Is God friendly? Adler said 50/50, yet he eventually converted to Catholicism.-There is a misunderstanding here. Your approach to the subject of free will entails dualism, which I have avoided because of its inevitable religious ramifications (such as predestination). Somehow we got sidetracked into your own belief in the immateriality of thought and consciousness even prior to your ‘conversion', which was independent of religion. I pointed out that the problem was the SOURCE of (immaterial) thought and consciousness, and the moment you claim that the source is immaterial, you enter the realms of religion. Belief in an immaterial mind is central to belief in your God. We needn't discuss your personal concept of that god (I was only having a little dig at you over “tough love” and your anthropocentrism!) or Adler's or anyone else's. I don't think there is any debate here, is there?

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Monday, November 16, 2015, 15:36 (3295 days ago) @ dhw


> DAVID: Again you are debating with me by pointing to religious precepts. I arrived at my concept of a universal consciousness as the only viable solution to the issue of SOURCE, recognizing that religions had established an anthropomorphic, human friendly God in the West and a divine level of Reality in the East, which I do not accept. Is God friendly? Adler said 50/50, yet he eventually converted to Catholicism.
> 
> dhw: There is a misunderstanding here. Your approach to the subject of free will entails dualism, which I have avoided because of its inevitable religious ramifications (such as predestination).-Here again you are looking at your concept of religion. I've never considered predestination in any way as valid to any of my thinking. This is the first time I've been forced to comment on it. It is a void for me.->dhw: I pointed out that the problem was the SOURCE of (immaterial) thought and consciousness, and the moment you claim that the source is immaterial, you enter the realms of religion.-In the sense that I accept a supernatural first-source mind, yes I am in the arena of religion.-> dhw: I don't think there is any debate here, is there?-There is. I don't follow religion's teachings about an anthropomorphic God which seems to me to be implied in your comments about religion and God.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 17, 2015, 00:43 (3295 days ago) @ David Turell

Another essay on 'emergence' as a physical quality. Emergence is not explained by the material substrates of that new property. A special look at the problem of consciouness:-http://www.firstthings.com/article/2013/11/emergence-and-formation-"But consciousness is perhaps an example more easily grasped. And, just to refresh our memories, we should recall how many logical difficulties a materialist reduction of mind entails. -"The most commonly invoked is the problem of qualia, of that qualitative sense of “what it is like” that constitutes the immediate intuitive form of subjectivity, and that poses philosophical difficulties that even the tireless and tortuous bluster of a Daniel Dennett cannot entirely obscure. There is also the difficulty of abstract concepts, which become more dazzlingly difficult to explain the more deeply one considers how entirely they determine our conscious engagement with the world.-***-"And of course, there is the problem of reason: For to reason about something is to proceed from one premise or proposition or concept to another, in order ideally to arrive at some conclusion, and in a coherent sequence whose connections are determined by the semantic content of each of the steps taken; but, if nature is mere physical mechanism, all sequences of cause and effect must be determined entirely by the impersonal laws governing the material world. One neuronal event can cause another as a result of physical necessity, but certainly not as a result of logical necessity; and the connections among the brain's neurons cannot generate the symbolic and conceptual connections that compose an act of consecutive logic, because the brain's neurons are connected organically and interact physically, not conceptually. And then there is the transcendental unity of consciousness, which makes such intentionality possible and which poses far greater difficulties for the materialist than any mere neurological “binding problem.” -***-" Then, of course, there is perhaps the greatest difficulty of all, intentionality, what the great Franz Brentano regarded as the supreme “mark of the mental,” inseparable from every act of consciousness: the mind's directedness, its “aboutness,” its capacity for meaning, by which it thinks, desires, believes, represents, wills, imagines, or otherwise orients itself toward a specific object, purpose, or end. On the one hand, the mind knows nothing in a merely passive way, but always has an end or meaning towards which it is purposively directed, as towards a final cause; yet, on the other hand, there is absolutely no intentional reciprocity between the mind and the objects of its intentions (that is, thoughts can be directed towards things, but things, at least taken as purely material events, cannot be directed towards thoughts). -***-"Not that there is room here to argue these points. Nonetheless, there are very good reasons why the most consistent materialist philosophers of mind—when, that is, they are not attempting to get around these difficulties with non-solutions like “epiphenomenalism” or incoherently fantastic solutions like “panpsychism”—have no choice in the end but to deny that such things as qualia or intentionality or even consciousness as such truly exist at all. The heroic absurdism that, in differing registers, constitutes the blazingly incandescent core of the thought of Daniel Dennett, Alex Rosenberg, Paul and Patricia Churchland, and other impeccable materialists of the same general kind follows from the recognition”not very philosophically sophisticated as a rule, but astute nonethelessthat consciousness can exist within the world of nature only if matter is susceptible of formation by a higher causality, one traditionally called “soul.” And the soul, as such a formal cause, is precisely that which cannot simply “emerge.”" -Comment: I couldn't have stated it better. Romansh?--?

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Tuesday, November 17, 2015, 17:48 (3294 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Again you are debating with me by pointing to religious precepts. I arrived at my concept of a universal consciousness as the only viable solution to the issue of SOURCE, recognizing that religions had established an anthropomorphic, human friendly God in the West and a divine level of Reality in the East, which I do not accept. Is God friendly? Adler said 50/50, yet he eventually converted to Catholicism.-dhw: There is a misunderstanding here. Your approach to the subject of free will entails dualism, which I have avoided because of its inevitable religious ramifications (such as predestination).-DAVID: Here again you are looking at your concept of religion. I've never considered predestination in any way as valid to any of my thinking. This is the first time I've been forced to comment on it. It is a void for me.-The misunderstanding continues. I have been trying to explain to Romansh that there are different approaches to the subject of free will. You brought up dualism - a very important aspect of your own belief in free will - but I wrote that I wanted to avoid it because it will inevitably lead to God and religion, with all the attendant convolutions. Not YOUR religious ideas, but those that have had theologians tying themselves in knots over the centuries, trying to prove that even though their God knows in advance what they are going to do, they still have free will. And now I'm talking about the very subject I particularly wanted to avoid in this context! (Happy to discuss it under “Difference in degree or kind”.)

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 17, 2015, 18:15 (3294 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: The misunderstanding continues. I have been trying to explain to Romansh that there are different approaches to the subject of free will. You brought up dualism - a very important aspect of your own belief in free will - but I wrote that I wanted to avoid it because it will inevitably lead to God and religion, with all the attendant convolutions. Not YOUR religious ideas, but those that have had theologians tying themselves in knots over the centuries, trying to prove that even though their God knows in advance what they are going to do, they still have free will. And now I'm talking about the very subject I particularly wanted to avoid in this context! (Happy to discuss it under “Difference in degree or kind”.)-You wouldn't have to avoid it, if you would stay away from religious theology completely in philosophic discussion, like I do.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Wednesday, November 18, 2015, 20:54 (3293 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: The misunderstanding continues. I have been trying to explain to Romansh that there are different approaches to the subject of free will. You brought up dualism - a very important aspect of your own belief in free will - but I wrote that I wanted to avoid it because it will inevitably lead to God and religion, with all the attendant convolutions. Not YOUR religious ideas, but those that have had theologians tying themselves in knots over the centuries, trying to prove that even though their God knows in advance what they are going to do, they still have free will. And now I'm talking about the very subject I particularly wanted to avoid in this context! (Happy to discuss it under “Difference in degree or kind”.)-DAVID: You wouldn't have to avoid it, if you would stay away from religious theology completely in philosophic discussion, like I do.-Once you express a belief in God, I would suggest to you that it is impossible to separate philosophical discussion from religious theology. All your “philosophy” is coloured by your faith. Your God is within and without everything, and there is purpose in all that he does. You cannot contemplate the possibility that he didn't know what he was doing when he started the process of evolution, or that he might have left his invention to follow its own course. Why? Because you attribute a very specific plan to him: the production of humans, though you don't like us asking why he would want to create humans. Extinctions and “nature red in tooth and claw” are all part of the great plan, vaguely associated with something called “balance of nature” and “tough love”. Your scepticism towards some aspects of organized religion is itself an expression of your personal theology. “Theos” means god, and rejecting concepts of gods is as much a part of theology as accepting them. You are of course free to follow or reject different concepts of God and his work as you please, but let's not pretend that your religious beliefs are “completely” separate from your philosophical discussions.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Thursday, November 19, 2015, 01:15 (3293 days ago) @ dhw


> DAVID: You wouldn't have to avoid it, if you would stay away from religious theology completely in philosophic discussion, like I do.
> 
> Once you express a belief in God, I would suggest to you that it is impossible to separate philosophical discussion from religious theology. -And what theology is that? You then bring in your version of my faith below:-> dhw Your God is within and without everything, and there is purpose in all that he does. You cannot contemplate the possibility that he didn't know what he was doing when he started the process of evolution, or that he might have left his invention to follow its own course. Why? Because you attribute a very specific plan to him: the production of humans, though you don't like us asking why he would want to create humans.-Humans are an obvious endpoint since we are the most complex, but you are right, I have no idea why He decided to make us. I'm glad He did. I see purpose in what happened, but you want me to read his mind and I can't. He won't tell me directly and I don't believe the religions' reasons because they are driven by hope and human thought, nothing else.-> dhw: You are of course free to follow or reject different concepts of God and his work as you please, but let's not pretend that your religious beliefs are “completely” separate from your philosophical discussions.-Of course I have a simple and positive religious belief, which is the religion I profess: there is a greater power that invented and runs all of this. There can be no other explanation. That is my theology. Beyond that the rest is guesswork. And I arrived at this point philosophically. I still think you are confused by your knowledge of and rejection of religion.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Thursday, November 19, 2015, 20:09 (3292 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: You wouldn't have to avoid it, if you would stay away from religious theology completely in philosophic discussion, like I do.
Dhw: Once you express a belief in God, I would suggest to you that it is impossible to separate philosophical discussion from religious theology. -David: And what theology is that? You then bring in your version of my faith below:
dhw Your God is within and without everything, and there is purpose in all that he does. You cannot contemplate the possibility that he didn't know what he was doing when he started the process of evolution, or that he might have left his invention to follow its own course. Why? Because you attribute a very specific plan to him: the production of humans, though you don't like us asking why he would want to create humans.-Is there any inaccuracy in my “version” of your faith? -DAVID: Humans are an obvious endpoint since we are the most complex, but you are right, I have no idea why He decided to make us. I'm glad He did. I see purpose in what happened, but you want me to read his mind and I can't. He won't tell me directly and I don't believe the religions' reasons because they are driven by hope and human thought, nothing else.-Your insistence that humans were your God's purpose, that the higgledy-piggledy history of evolution somehow fits in with such a purpose, and that he would not have started the process without knowing where it was leading, is already a reading of God's mind. Unless you reject my “version” of your faith as outlined above, it is your theology. Your rejection of established religions is also part of your theology.
 
dhw: You are of course free to follow or reject different concepts of God and his work as you please, but let's not pretend that your religious beliefs are “completely” separate from your philosophical discussions.-DAVID: Of course I have a simple and positive religious belief, which is the religion I profess: there is a greater power that invented and runs all of this. There can be no other explanation. That is my theology. Beyond that the rest is guesswork. And I arrived at this point philosophically. I still think you are confused by your knowledge of and rejection of religion.-Your philosophical discussions (including a very precise interpretation of theistic evolution) are based on your theology, which you arrived at through your philosophy! So how can you claim that you stay away from religious theology in philosophical discussion? And indeed why should you? It seems to me to be perfectly normal that your theology should permeate your philosophy. And perfectly normal that I should question both, just as you question the theological speculations that permeate my philosophy.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Friday, November 20, 2015, 01:25 (3292 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: Your insistence that humans were your God's purpose,... is already a reading of God's mind. Unless you reject my “version” of your faith as outlined above, it is your theology. Your rejection of established religions is also part of your theology.-I think rejection of established religions is philosophy, but with the rest you are correct and I have my personal limited theology.-
> 
> dhw: You are of course free to follow or reject different concepts of God and his work as you please, but let's not pretend that your religious beliefs are “completely” separate from your philosophical discussions.
> 
> DAVID: Of course I have a simple and positive religious belief, which is the religion I profess: there is a greater power that invented and runs all of this. There can be no other explanation. That is my theology. Beyond that the rest is guesswork. And I arrived at this point philosophically. I still think you are confused by your knowledge of and rejection of religion.
> 
> dhw: Your philosophical discussions (including a very precise interpretation of theistic evolution) are based on your theology, which you arrived at through your philosophy! So how can you claim that you stay away from religious theology in philosophical discussion? And indeed why should you? It seems to me to be perfectly normal that your theology should permeate your philosophy. And perfectly normal that I should question both, just as you question the theological speculations that permeate my philosophy.-I can accept that statement, and note that your philosophy has lead you to an atheologic state of thought. (Not 'anti', but 'a'.)

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Friday, November 20, 2015, 21:02 (3291 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Your insistence that humans were your God's purpose,... is already a reading of God's mind. Unless you reject my “version” of your faith as outlined above, it is your theology. Your rejection of established religions is also part of your theology.

DAVID: I think rejection of established religions is philosophy, but with the rest you are correct and I have my personal limited theology.-I would say that any discussion of religious ideas marks the area where philosophy and theology overlap. But we needn't argue over it.
 
dhw: Your philosophical discussions (including a very precise interpretation of theistic evolution) are based on your theology, which you arrived at through your philosophy! So how can you claim that you stay away from religious theology in philosophical discussion? And indeed why should you? It seems to me to be perfectly normal that your theology should permeate your philosophy. And perfectly normal that I should question both, just as you question the theological speculations that permeate my philosophy.-DAVID: I can accept that statement, and note that your philosophy has lead you to an atheologic state of thought. (Not 'anti', but 'a'.)-My state of thought probably encompasses a wider theology than yours. I like to follow hypotheses through, and IF there is a God, I like to speculate on his motives and nature as reflected in what he has created. I can't do as you do, and imagine that God's purpose was to create humans but then not speculate as to why he might have done so. Perhaps it's the dramatist's mind: we like to know what is going on below the surface - even if it's all fiction!

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Friday, November 20, 2015, 22:13 (3291 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: My state of thought probably encompasses a wider theology than yours. I like to follow hypotheses through, and IF there is a God, I like to speculate on his motives and nature as reflected in what he has created. I can't do as you do, and imagine that God's purpose was to create humans but then not speculate as to why he might have done so. Perhaps it's the dramatist's mind: we like to know what is going on below the surface - even if it's all fiction!-No. I don't have the imagination you do. but then you write the plays and I enjoy them.

Free Will: a new study

by David Turell @, Tuesday, January 05, 2016, 16:17 (3245 days ago) @ David Turell

A new study says our wills are free up to a point:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160104130826.htm-"Our choices seem to be freer than previously thought. Using computer-based brain experiments, researchers from Charité -- Universitätsmedizin Berlin studied the decision-making processes involved in voluntary movements. The question was: Is it possible for people to cancel a movement once the brain has started preparing it? The conclusion the researchers reached was: Yes, up to a certain point -- the 'point of no return'. The results of this study have been published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.-***-"'The aim of our research was to find out whether the presence of early brain waves means that further decision-making is automatic and not under conscious control, or whether the person can still cancel the decision, i.e. use a 'veto'," explains Prof. Haynes. As part of this study, researchers asked study participants to enter into a 'duel' with a computer, and then monitored their brain waves throughout the duration of the game using electroencephalography (EEG). A specially-trained computer was then tasked with using these EEG data to predict when a subject would move, the aim being to out-maneuver the player. This was achieved by manipulating the game in favor of the computer as soon as brain wave measurements indicated that the player was about to move.-"If subjects are able to evade being predicted based on their own brain processes this would be evidence that control over their actions can be retained for much longer than previously thought, which is exactly what the researchers were able to demonstrate. "A person's decisions are not at the mercy of unconscious and early brain waves. They are able to actively intervene in the decision-making process and interrupt a movement," says Prof. Haynes. "Previously people have used the preparatory brain signals to argue against free will. Our study now shows that the freedom is much less limited than previously thought. However, there is a 'point of no return' in the decision-making process, after which cancellation of movement is no longer possible." Further studies are planned in which the researchers will investigate more complex decision-making processes."-Comment: I'm not surprised.

Free Will: a new study

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 07, 2016, 20:25 (3243 days ago) @ David Turell

A new study says our wills are free up to a point:
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160104130826.htm
> 
> "Our choices seem to be freer than previously thought. Using computer-based brain experiments, researchers from Charité -- Universitätsmedizin Berlin studied the decision-making processes involved in voluntary movements. The question was: Is it possible for people to cancel a movement once the brain has started preparing it? The conclusion the researchers reached was: Yes, up to a certain point -- the 'point of no return'. The results of this study have been published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
> 
> ***
> 
> "'The aim of our research was to find out whether the presence of early brain waves means that further decision-making is automatic and not under conscious control, or whether the person can still cancel the decision, i.e. use a 'veto'," explains Prof. Haynes. As part of this study, researchers asked study participants to enter into a 'duel' with a computer, and then monitored their brain waves throughout the duration of the game using electroencephalography (EEG). A specially-trained computer was then tasked with using these EEG data to predict when a subject would move, the aim being to out-maneuver the player. This was achieved by manipulating the game in favor of the computer as soon as brain wave measurements indicated that the player was about to move.
> 
> "If subjects are able to evade being predicted based on their own brain processes this would be evidence that control over their actions can be retained for much longer than previously thought, which is exactly what the researchers were able to demonstrate. "A person's decisions are not at the mercy of unconscious and early brain waves. They are able to actively intervene in the decision-making process and interrupt a movement," says Prof. Haynes. "Previously people have used the preparatory brain signals to argue against free will. Our study now shows that the freedom is much less limited than previously thought. However, there is a 'point of no return' in the decision-making process, after which cancellation of movement is no longer possible." Further studies are planned in which the researchers will investigate more complex decision-making processes."
> 
> Comment: I'm not surprised.-I thought Matt and Romansh might comment

Free Will: a new study

by dhw, Friday, January 08, 2016, 12:33 (3242 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: A new study says our wills are free up to a point:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160104130826.htm-QUOTE: If subjects are able to evade being predicted based on their own brain processes this would be evidence that control over their actions can be retained for much longer than previously thought, which is exactly what the researchers were able to demonstrate. "A person's decisions are not at the mercy of unconscious and early brain waves. They are able to actively intervene in the decision-making process and interrupt a movement," says Prof. Haynes. "Previously people have used the preparatory brain signals to argue against free will. Our study now shows that the freedom is much less limited than previously thought. However, there is a 'point of no return' in the decision-making process, after which cancellation of movement is no longer possible." Further studies are planned in which the researchers will investigate more complex decision-making processes."-DAVID: I thought Matt and Romansh might comment.-I'll comment instead. I have put in bold the key sentence: “A person's decisions...They are able to intervene in the decision-making process.” What does “they” refer to? Assuming decisions don't intervene in the decision-making process, they = a person, in which case who or what is the “person”? Prof. Haynes is either distinguishing between the person and the brain waves, or between unconscious, early conscious and later conscious brain waves. So is the person that intervenes separate from the brain or not? If it's the former, Haynes is arguing for dualism, and if it's the latter, he is arguing for materialism, in which case we are still at the mercy of our brains. But our brains in that case ARE “us”, so that does not mean “we” do not take our own decisions. Whether we have free will or not therefore depends on the definition of free will, and the answer to the question “freedom from what?” Back to square one.-Of course there is a point of no return. That will be the moment at which the movement has been made. I am applying to Universitätsmedizin Berlin for a grant to cover my research into how decisions are made to grant grants for research into how decisions are made.

Free Will: a new study

by David Turell @, Friday, January 08, 2016, 15:52 (3242 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: So is the person that intervenes separate from the brain or not? If it's the former, Haynes is arguing for dualism, and if it's the latter, he is arguing for materialism, in which case we are still at the mercy of our brains. But our brains in that case ARE “us”, so that does not mean “we” do not take our own decisions. Whether we have free will or not therefore depends on the definition of free will, and the answer to the question “freedom from what?” Back to square one.
> 
> Of course there is a point of no return. That will be the moment at which the movement has been made. I am applying to Universitätsmedizin Berlin for a grant to cover my research into how decisions are made to grant grants for research into how decisions are made.-Your points are well taken. I presented this to show that the study of decision-making by the brain is not as simple as the Libet findings of years ago.

Free Will: predicting words with EEG patterns

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 09, 2016, 00:39 (3242 days ago) @ David Turell

Japanese researchers are able to do this about 25% of the time:-http://techxplore.com/news/2016-01-decipher-words-mind-spoken.html-" The team in Japan enlisted the assistance of 12 volunteers of various ages, asking each to undergo EEG scans while they thought about words and then spoke them out loud. The initial stages resulted in the buildup of brain patterns in a database—later, as each person recited words, the researchers read their brain waves to see if they could identify the words they were about to speak by comparing current brain wave patterns with those in the database. Similar research has been done before, but this time, the researchers looked specifically at brain waves emanating from the Broca area—which is a part of the brain where formation of words occurs before they are sent to other parts of the brain that are used to actually speak them. By limiting the vocabulary, the researchers found they could correctly interpret the words a person was about to speak (up to 2 seconds beforehand), approximately 25 percent of the time. They also found they could up that percentage to near 90 percent if they focused instead on just (Japanese) characters, or syllables.-***-"The paper noted that the research benefited by using Japanese speaking volunteers, because every character in that language has a vowel in it—the lack of them in many western language, it has been noted, has been making it more difficult for researchers in the field working with volunteers who speak in English, for example."-Comment: The two-second gap involves thinking of the word and then speaking it.

Free Will: a new study

by David Turell @, Tuesday, January 12, 2016, 16:22 (3238 days ago) @ David Turell

When there is intention to reach for something both the brain and vision pathways gear up to control the movement:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-01-uncover-neuron-orchestra-movements.html-"Identifying which neurons are involved in looking and reaching actions means we can actually see them firing before these decisions are made, offering a crystal ball of sorts into subsequent movements," said Bijan Pesaran, an associate professor at NYU's Center for Neural Science, member of NYU's Institute for the Interdisciplinary Study of Decision Making, and the study's senior author.-"It's long been known that selecting and planning actions involve recruiting neurons across many areas of the brain. Specifically, it had been previously established that neurons in the lateral, or side, portion of the brain's intraparietal sulcus (IPS) were active prior to eye movements while neurons on its medial bank fired before arm movements.-"Less clear, however, is how ensembles of neurons work together to make decisions—such as eyeing a target, then reaching for it.-"To address this question in their study, which appears in the journal Nature Neuroscience, the researchers examined different groups of neurons that were active ahead of a decision that involved discrete actions: eye movement and arm movement, or reach. This allowed the scientists to map an array of neuronal activity during two simultaneous actions.-"In the study, primates engaged in a series of activities that involved both looking and reaching for different colored targets on a computer screen. During these tasks, the scientists recorded neurological activity in the IPS.-"Here, they found "coherent" patterns of spike in activity among groups of neurons in both the lateral and medial regions of the IPS that predicted both eye and reaching movements. Other groups of neurons fired spikes without coherent patterns, and they did not predict the movements. The results, then, offered both a prediction of subsequent actions—based on preceding neuronal activity—and indicated an orchestration between these distinct sets of neurons.-"'The timing of the spiking of these populations of neurons indicates they are working together ahead of a decision being made—apparently 'sharing' information before any overt action is taken," observes Pesaran.'-Comment: As I've pointed out before the brain is built to help. it recognizes intentionality and sets up coordination in advance. This helps to explain Libet's findings.

Free Will: a new study

by David Turell @, Monday, January 18, 2016, 06:19 (3232 days ago) @ David Turell

Another study hat seems to answer Libet's findings:-Discussed recently was this study on stopping intentionality in midstream:-Tuesday, January 12, 2016, 16:22 -http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-01-uncover-neuron-orchestra-movements.html-Now another study:-https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28746-do-impulsive-people-have-less-free-will-than-the-rest-of-us/-"In 1983, neuroscientist Benjamin Libet performed an experiment to test whether we have free will. Participants were asked to voluntarily flex a finger while watching a clock-face with a rotating dot. They had to note the position of the dot as soon as they became aware of their intention to act. As they were doing so, Libet recorded their brain activity via EEG electrodes attached to the scalp.-"He found that a spike in brain activity called the readiness potential, which precedes a voluntary action, occurred about 350-milliseconds before the volunteers became consciously aware of their intention to act. The readiness potential is thought to signal the brain preparing for movement. 
 
"Libet interpreted his results to mean that free will is an illusion. But we're not complete slaves to our neurons, he reasoned, as there was a 200-millisecond gap between conscious awareness of our intention and the initiation of movement. Libet argued that this was enough time to consciously veto the action, or exert our “free won't”.-"While Libet's interpretations have remained controversial, this hasn't stopped scientists carrying out variations of his experiment. Among other things, this has revealed that people with Tourette's syndrome, who have uncontrollable tics, experience a shorter veto window than people without the condition, as do those with schizophrenia.-"Emilie Caspar and Axel Cleeremans of the Free University of Brussels (ULB) in Belgium decided to see if the same was true in impulsive, but otherwise healthy, people. They asked 72 volunteers to complete standard questionnaires to determine how impulsive they were. Then, the volunteers took part in a Libet-style experiment while the researchers recorded their EEG signals.-"People who were deemed impulsive did indeed have shorter time intervals between their conscious awareness of the intention to act and the moment of action. The more impulsive they were, the shorter the interval.-“It might suggest that maybe impulsive individuals have less time to inhibit or control their actions,” says Caspar.-"Aaron Schurger at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne, who has worked on understanding the implications of the Libet experiment, cautions that any conclusions depend on how you interpret the various signals. His own work suggests that the readiness potential is not a signal of the brain getting ready to act, but rather a signature of random neural noise that accumulates and then crosses a threshold, making movement possible.-"But many neuroscientists still favour Libet's interpretation of the readiness potential. In that case, Schurger says that the study shows that “impulsive people have less time to ‘veto' their actions since the decision to act happens much closer in time to the action itself”.-“'Setting aside arguments about interpretation, the findings might point towards new avenues of research in the study of impulsivity, and related syndromes like bipolar disorder,” says Schurger."-Comment: Libet's original study doesn't hold up.

Free Will: a new study, Libet refuted

by David Turell @, Friday, February 05, 2016, 01:14 (3215 days ago) @ David Turell

Another review of the previous article and study. Once again Libet is refuted because his was a coarse study compared to what can be done now:-http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/-The German neuroscientists took a different approach from past work, using a form of brain-computer integration to see whether participants could cancel a movement after the onset of the nonconscious preparatory brain activity identified by Libet. If they could, it would be a sign that humans can consciously intervene and “veto” processes that neuroscience has previously considered automatic and beyond willful control.-The participants' task started off simply enough: They had to press a foot pedal as quickly as possible whenever they saw a green light and cancel this movement whenever they saw a red light. Things got trickier when the researchers put the red light under the control of a computer that was monitoring the participants' own brain waves. Whenever the computer detected signs of nonconscious preparatory brain activity, it switched on the red light. If this preparatory activity is truly a signal of actions that are beyond conscious control, the participants should have been incapable of responding to these sudden red lights. In fact, in many cases the participants were able to cancel the nonconscious preparatory brain activity and stop their foot movement before it even began.-Now, there was a point of no return — red lights that appeared too close (less than about one-quarter of a second) to the beginning of a foot movement could not be completely inhibited — there simply wasn't time for the new cancellation signal to overtake the earlier command to move. But still, the principle stands — these results suggest at least some of the activity identified by Libet can, in fact, be vetoed by conscious will.-***-This new finding comes on the back of research by French neuroscientists published in 2012 in PNAS that also challenged the way Libet's seminal work is usually interpreted. These researchers believe that the supposedly nonconscious preparatory brain activity identified by Libet is really just part of a fairly random ebb and flow of background neural activity, and that movements occur when this activity crosses a certain threshold.-Based on this result from 2012 and a similar finding in a study with rats published in 2014, the lead researcher of the 2012 study, Aaron Schurger at INSERM in Paris, and two colleagues have written in their field's prestige journal Trends in Cognitive Sciences that it's time for a new perspective on Libet's results — they say that their results call “for a reevaluation and reinterpretation of a large body of work” and that for 50 years their field may have been “measuring, mapping and analyzing what may turn out to be a reliable accident: the cortical readiness potential.”-And like their counterparts in Germany, these neuroscientists say the new picture is much more in keeping with our intuitive sense of our free will. When we form a vague intention to move, they explain, this mind-set feeds into the background ebb and flow of neural activity, but the specific decision to act only occurs when the neural activity passes a key threshold — and our all-important subjective feeling of deciding happens at this point or a brief instant afterward. “All this leaves our common sense picture largely intact,” they write.-Comment: Both Matt and Romansh should change their positions. Free will exists.

Free Will: a new study, with timed reaction

by David Turell @, Friday, April 29, 2016, 19:46 (3130 days ago) @ David Turell

I'm not sure the conclusions of this study are valid. My choosing a product in a store are not the same as trying to choose which circle will turn red:-http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/what-neuroscience-says-about-free-will/?WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20160429-"In a classic paper published almost 20 years ago, the psychologists Dan Wegner and Thalia Wheatley made a revolutionary proposal: The experience of intentionally willing an action, they suggested, is often nothing more than a post hoc causal inference that our thoughts caused some behavior. The feeling itself, however, plays no causal role in producing that behavior. This could sometimes lead us to think we made a choice when we actually didn't or think we made a different choice than we actually did.-"But there's a mystery here. Suppose, as Wegner and Wheatley propose, that we observe ourselves (unconsciously) perform some action, like picking out a box of cereal in the grocery store, and then only afterwards come to infer that we did this intentionally. If this is the true sequence of events, how could we be deceived into believing that we had intentionally made our choice before the consequences of this action were observed? This explanation for how we think of our agency would seem to require supernatural backwards causation, with our experience of conscious will being both a product and an apparent cause of behavior.-***-
"In one of our studies, participants were repeatedly presented with five white circles in random locations on a computer monitor and were asked to quickly choose one of the circles in their head before one lit up red. If a circle turned red so fast that they didn't feel like they were able to complete their choice, participants could indicate that they ran out of time. Otherwise, they indicated whether they had chosen the red circle (before it turned red) or had chosen a different circle. We explored how likely people were to report a successful prediction among these instances in which they believed that they had time to make a choice.-"Unbeknownst to participants, the circle that lit up red on each trial of the experiment was selected completely randomly by our computer script. Hence, if participants were truly completing their choices when they claimed to be completing them—before one of the circles turned red—they should have chosen the red circle on approximately 1 in 5 trials. Yet participants' reported performance deviated unrealistically far from this 20% probability, exceeding 30% when a circle turned red especially quickly. This pattern of responding suggests that participants' minds had sometimes swapped the order of events in conscious awareness, creating an illusion that a choice had preceded the color change when, in fact, it was biased by it.-***-"In fact, the people who showed our time-dependent illusion were often completely unaware of their above-chance performance when asked about it in debriefing after the experiment was over. Moreover, in a related experiment, we found that the bias to choose correctly was not driven by confusion or uncertainty about what was chosen: Even when participants were highly confident in their choice, they showed a tendency to “choose” correctly at an impossibly high rate.-"Taken together, these findings suggest that we may be systematically misled about how we make choices, even when we have strong intuitions to the contrary. Why, though, would our minds fool us in such a seemingly silly way in the first place? Wouldn't this illusion wreak havoc on our mental lives and behavior? -"Maybe not. Perhaps the illusion can simply be explained by appeal to limits in the brain's perceptual processing, which only messes up at the very short time scales measured in our (or similar) experiments and which are unlikely to affect us in the real world.-"The illusion may only apply to a small set of our choices that are made quickly and without too much thought. Or it may be pervasive and ubiquitous—governing all aspects of our behavior, from our most minute to our most important decisions. Most likely, the truth lies somewhere in between these extremes. Whatever the case may be, our studies add to a growing body of work suggesting that even our most seemingly ironclad beliefs about our own agency and conscious experience can be dead wrong."-Comment: This study at guessing the red dot illustrates the authors' doubting comments more than something positive. I still think my choice of a cereal is not the same at guessing a red dot against time. The brain does have a reaction time deficit biologically and we know consciousness automatically fills in for the gaps in time. Tricking the brain is well known. I'm not sure what this proves, but it is interesting.

Free Will: a new study, with timed reaction

by dhw, Saturday, April 30, 2016, 10:14 (3129 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I'm not sure the conclusions of this study are valid. My choosing a product in a store are not the same as trying to choose which circle will turn red:
-http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/what-neuroscience-says-about-free-w...-David's comment: This study at guessing the red dot illustrates the authors' doubting comments more than something positive. I still think my choice of a cereal is not the same at guessing a red dot against time. The brain does have a reaction time deficit biologically and we know consciousness automatically fills in for the gaps in time. Tricking the brain is well known. I'm not sure what this proves, but it is interesting.-I share your scepticism. Though slightly different (here the "victim" dupes himself), this experiment seems to me to follow a similar principle to that of forcing a card. The conjurer fans out the cards and invites the dupe to pick any one he likes (= free will) - but he subtly pushes his own preselected card out so that the dupe takes it. Then after a long spiel, the conjuror magically identifies the card. Yes indeed, tricking the brain is well known, and I shall now apply for a million dollar grant to subsidize the extremely expensive, sophisticated, time-consuming, technological and psychological experiments I have devised for my sensational new thesis: 
FREE WILL: HOW TO MAKE PEOPLE THINK THEY HAVE IT WHEN IN FACT THEY MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE IT.

Free Will: a new study, with timed reaction

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, May 01, 2016, 20:50 (3128 days ago) @ dhw

We can define free will how we like. Our thoughts, choices, actions etc are not independent of cause. (Unless someone can bring some evidence to the table to the other). - We can be sceptical all we want. Defining free will as something else, is fine; we can carry on discussing angels on the head of a bin. - But the problem of everything we do being a result of cause does not go away.

Free Will: a new study, with timed reaction

by David Turell @, Sunday, May 01, 2016, 21:06 (3128 days ago) @ romansh

romansh: We can define free will how we like. Our thoughts, choices, actions etc are not independent of cause. (Unless someone can bring some evidence to the table to the other).
> 
> We can be sceptical all we want. Defining free will as something else, is fine; we can carry on discussing angels on the head of a bin.
> 
> But the problem of everything we do being a result of cause does not go away. - I agree. The cause of our debate is an interpretation of the time the brain takes to tell us what we are experiencing and it does fill in data to help us to make independent choices. But we seem to pursue knowledge of reality accurately, and I can choose which cereal I want at the grocery using a biological sensing and interpreting machine.

Free Will: a new study, with timed reaction

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, May 01, 2016, 21:42 (3128 days ago) @ David Turell

romansh: We can define free will how we like. Our thoughts, choices, actions etc are not independent of cause. (Unless someone can bring some evidence to the table to the other).
> > 
> > We can be sceptical all we want. Defining free will as something else, is fine; we can carry on discussing angels on the head of a bin.
> > 
> > But the problem of everything we do being a result of cause does not go away.
> 
> David: I agree. The cause of our debate is an interpretation of the time the brain takes to tell us what we are experiencing and it does fill in data to help us to make independent choices. But we seem to pursue knowledge of reality accurately, and I can choose which cereal I want at the grocery using a biological sensing and interpreting machine.-AGAIN ... no one is debating that we make choices. It is the nature of the choices that is in question.-As dhw has conceded, with respect to cause and effect our choices and wills are not free.-The fact you can or do choose rice crispies from a plethora of other cereals is not the issue. Never has been. It is a question whether (causal) determinism is true or not, is the issue. -Just because there is not a gun to your head or you have an embolism in the brain forcing you to choose rice crispies does not make your will free except there in the sense there isn't an unusual coercion in action.-Whether the chemical/physical processes in the brain are fast or slow is irrelevant. The fact that they are there and ultimately guide our decisions is.

Free Will: a new study, with timed reaction

by David Turell @, Monday, May 02, 2016, 00:12 (3128 days ago) @ romansh


> Romansh: Whether the chemical/physical processes in the brain are fast or slow is irrelevant. The fact that they are there and ultimately guide our decisions is. - Yes, we differ. I do not think my use of my physical/chemical processes guide my decisions. I use my brain, it does not use me.

Free Will: a new study, with timed reaction

by dhw, Monday, May 02, 2016, 10:03 (3127 days ago) @ romansh

ROMANSH: AGAIN ... no one is debating that we make choices. It is the nature of the choices that is in question.
As dhw has conceded, with respect to cause and effect our choices and wills are not free. - No need to go over all this yet again, but since you have brought me into the discussion, I will repeat for the umpteenth time that in my view the question of whether or not we have free will depends on how you define it, and on freedom from what. Yes, I agree that nothing is free from cause and effect. But that is not the only possible criterion for freedom of choice. The rest of my arguments for and against free will, and your own arguments against free will, are contained in the thread “A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire”, 30 August - 28 September 2015.

Free Will: a new study, Libet refuted

by David Turell @, Saturday, September 14, 2019, 23:15 (1897 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by David Turell, Saturday, September 14, 2019, 23:22

A new article with new studies:

https://mindmatters.ai/2019/09/was-famous-old-evidence-against-free-will-just-debunked/

"In recent decades, debates about free will have always included discussion of Benjamin Libet’s “no free will but maybe free won’t” position, an (at best) minimized version of free will. But recent research suggests that the original experiment had a fatal error.

"As recounted at The Atlantic by Bahar Gholipour, the story begins in 1964, when two German scientists at the University of Freiburg monitored electrical activity in the brains of twelve study subjects every day for several months, via wires fixed to their scalps:

"The participants sat in a chair, tucked neatly in a metal tollbooth, with only one task: to flex a finger on their right hand at whatever irregular intervals pleased them, over and over, up to 500 times a visit. The purpose of this experiment was to search for signals in the participants’ brains that preceded each finger tap. At the time, researchers knew how to measure brain activity that occurred in response to events out in the world — when a person hears a song, for instance, or looks at a photograph — but no one had figured out how to isolate the signs of someone’s brain actually initiating an action.

"They found that the brain waves “showed an almost undetectably faint uptick: a wave that rose for about a second, like a drumroll of firing neurons, then ended in an abrupt crash.” This Bereitschaftspotential, or “readiness potential,” was recorded before the participants flexed their fingers.

"Two decades later, Libet (1916–2007) took that timing to mean that the decision to flex a finger had been made before participants were conscious of it. In other words, the participants did not really make the decision; their conscious experience of making a decision was an illusion.

***

"But Libet looked deeper. He asked his subjects to veto their decision immediately after they made it—to not push the button. Again, the readiness potential appeared a half-second before conscious awareness of the decision to push the button, but Libet found that the veto—he called it “free won’t”—had no brain wave corresponding to it.

"The brain, then, has activity that corresponds to a pre-conscious urge to do something. But we are free to veto or accept this urge. The motives are material. The veto, and implicitly the acceptance, is an immaterial act of the will.

***

"The problem is, Gholipour recounts, readiness potentials are not quite what Libet thought:
In 2010, Aaron Schurger had an epiphany. As a researcher at the National Institute of Health and Medical Research in Paris, Schurger studied fluctuations in neuronal activity, the churning hum in the brain that emerges from the spontaneous flickering of hundreds of thousands of interconnected neurons. This ongoing electrophysiological noise rises and falls in slow tides, like the surface of the ocean—or, for that matter, like anything that results from many moving parts. “Just about every natural phenomenon that I can think of behaves this way", Schurger says.

"The Bereitschaftspotential does not necessarily signal the brain’s “brewing intention” but a noise wave pattern in a busy system:

To decide when to tap their fingers, the participants simply acted whenever the moment struck them. Those spontaneous moments, Schurger reasoned, must have coincided with the haphazard ebb and flow of the participants’ brain activity. They would have been more likely to tap their fingers when their motor system happened to be closer to a threshold for movement initiation.

"In short, the classical pattern can be accounted for by assuming that the participants in the experiment did not sense that their decision mattered, so they went with the flow. But, according to more recent research, the subjective experience of making a decision is not an illusion at all. It is our experience of the actual moment when we finally decide to jump off the high diving board or ask for a raise.

***

"These observations point to a fundamental paradox about consciousness. We have the strong impression that we choose when we do and don’t act and, as a consequence, we hold people responsible for their actions. Yet many of the ways we encounter the world don’t require any real conscious processing, and our feeling of agency can be deeply misleading.

"If our experience of action doesn’t really affect what we do in the moment, then what is it for? Why have it? Contrary to what many people believe, I think agency is only relevant to what happens after we act – when we try to justify and explain ourselves to each other." (my bold)

Commemt: Libet did not interpret correctly. The bold considers agency a feeling after we act. That sounds correct to me.

Free Will: a new study, Libet refuted

by David Turell @, Monday, March 09, 2020, 01:20 (1721 days ago) @ David Turell

A different approach to Libet's observation,. He is dead wrong:


https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-03-clutches-motor-cortex-brains-movement.html

"For decades, scientists have wondered why specific cells in the brain that control movement fire when people simply plan or imagine making a movement, or observe someone else making a movement—but do not actually move themselves.

"Now, University of Chicago scientists working on this mystery have discovered that signals in the motor cortex act like a series of clutches when it comes to moving, and that these signals can be disrupted to slow the brain's initiation of movement.

***

"It's long been known that when a person thinks about or plans a movement, neurons fire in the motor cortex and create a signal called a beta oscillation. Hatsopoulos compares the function of this signal to a clutch in a car with a manual transmission: If you push in a clutch pedal, then press on the gas, the car engine will rev—but it won't move because the car is not in gear. Likewise, if you simply imagine moving your arm or observe someone else moving their arm, this signal in your motor cortex is maintained or even intensifies—but you don't move your arm. It's only when you're ready to actually move that the beta oscillations cease—essentially, the clutch engages the engine to the transmission of the car—and your arm moves.

"Hatsopoulos and his team have discovered that this 'clutch' signal in the motor cortex is better understood as not one, but rather multiple clutches that engage in an organized spatial pattern that can begin at either end of the motor cortex and terminate at the other. Every time a movement is initiated, this organized wave of clutches—in actuality, groups of firing neurons—engages.

Comment: Jumping to the wrong conclusions about no free will is the result of incomplete research and freewill illusionists' fantasies. The brain is operating under our controls.

Free Will: a new study; which areas act

by David Turell @, Sunday, July 24, 2016, 01:23 (3045 days ago) @ David Turell

A new study lets subjects decide on their own when to switch from one view to another and demonstrates the areas of the brain that interact and coordinate. In this way the people selected times on their own, not waiting for a command:-http://releases.jhu.edu/2016/07/13/what-free-will-looks-like-in-the-brain/-"Unlike most brain studies where scientists watch as people respond to cues or commands, Johns Hopkins researchers found a way to observe people's brain activity as they made choices entirely on their own.-***-"The team devised a novel experiment to track a person's focus of attention without using intrusive cues or commands. Participants, positioned in MRI scanners, were left alone to watch a split screen as rapid streams of colorful numbers and letters scrolled past on each side. They were asked simply to pay attention to one side for a while, then to the other side — when to switch sides was entirely up to them. Over an hour, the participants switched their attention from one side to the other dozens of times.-"Researchers monitored the participants' brains as they watched the media stream, both before and after they switched their focus.-"For the first time, researchers were able to see both what happens in a human brain the moment a free choice is made, and what happens during the lead-up to that decision — how the brain behaves during the deliberation to act.-"The actual switching of attention from one side to the other was closely linked to activity in the parietal lobe, near the back of the brain. The activity leading up to the choice — that is, the period of deliberation — occurred in the frontal cortex, in areas involved in reasoning and movement, and in the basal ganglia, regions deep within the brain that are responsible for a variety of motor control functions including the ability to start an action. The frontal-lobe activity began earlier than it would if participants were told to shift attention, clearly demonstrating that the brain was preparing a purely voluntary action rather than merely following an order.-"Together, the two brain regions make up the core components underlying the will to act, the authors concluded.-"What's truly remarkable about this project,” said Leon Gmeindl, a research scientist at Johns Hopkins and lead author of the study, “is that by devising a way to detect brain events that are otherwise invisible — that is, a kind of high-tech ‘mind reading' — we uncovered important information about what may be the neural underpinnings of volition, or free will.”-"Now that scientists have a way to track choices made from free will, they can use the technique to determine what's happening in the brain as people wrestle with other, more complex decisions. For instance, researchers could observe the brain as someone tried to decide between snacking on a doughnut or an apple — watching as someone weighed short-term rewards over long-term rewards, perhaps being able to pinpoint the tipping point between the two."-Comment: This is an fMRI study which does not answer the issue Libet raised, seen in EEG studies of pre-action spikes that seem to imply a delay, that represent the brain, not the person preparing for an action. Libet has been fairly refuted ( see previous entries)but combining EEG with the FMRI's will fully answer the issue. The authors use the term volition as an equivalent to 'free will'. Fair enough.

Free Will: a different explanation

by David Turell @, Monday, September 05, 2016, 01:39 (3002 days ago) @ David Turell

A psychiatrist takes a slightly different approach: - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/neuraptitude/201608/illusion-choice-the-myth-free-... - "Merriam-Webster's Dictionary1 defines free will as “the ability to choose how to act.” The notion of free will is encapsulated in your subjective experience of having consciously chosen either the left or the right eye to wink. Although the existence of free will is treated as a self-evident fact by most, neuroscientific research suggests that there may be a more complex explanation to your wink and to the notion of free will than there appears at first glance. - *** - "Findings from Libet's experiment demonstrated that the conscious experience of having chosen a particular arm to raise occurred nearly 500 milliseconds after neural mechanisms involved in arm raising had already begun the process. - "Haggard and Eimer3 updated this experimental design and showed that the conscious experience of having initiated a voluntary action coincided not with the neural preparation for the action, but instead occurred later during the actual execution of the action. In other words, Haggard and Eimer showed that your brain chose which eye to wink before both your eye winked and before you had the conscious experience of having made a choice between left and right. - "Finally, in a similar experimental design Soon et al. used fMRI technology to predict a participant's action a staggering 8 seconds before an action was performed. - "Does all of this mean that we don't have any free will? Not necessarily. - "In his 2008 article in the journal Nature Reviews Neuroscience, Dr. Patrick Haggard5 suggested that the same neural networks involved in planning motor actions may also “plan” the experience of conscious intention. In our eye wink scenario, Dr. Haggard's theory would suggest that the conscious experience of free will is the contemporary of the physical wink and not the initial choice of laterality. - *** - "Because the choice of which eye to wink was largely arbitrary, your choice of left or right was likely a result of baseline random neural activity or maybe a habitual preference for laterality (maybe you most frequently wink with your right eye). - *** - "Let's imagine for a moment that you did in fact go on to wink with your right eye. In that case, the pre-SMA and its associated structures generated both the neurological map for the planned movement (winking your right eye) and the outline of the conscious experience of intention (“I did this”). This information was then communicated to the motor cortex as well as to parts of the prefrontal cortex.6 - "The prefrontal cortex used this behavioral map to predict an expected action (“I'm going to wink my right eye”), while the motor cortex signaled the right eyelid to close and open. Your somatosensory cortex then received feedback from the body indicating that the predicted action had indeed occurred. - "It is at this point that you have the conscious experience of, “I chose to wink with my right eye.” The human brain is a logical machine and it seeks to establish linear causation regardless of the temporal reality. The fact that your prediction aligned with the actual action is interpreted by your brain to mean that your conscious thought caused the action. In reality, your thought, “I chose to wink my right eye,” is nothing more than a retroactive inference generated in an attempt to transmute a largely unconscious process into a conscious one. - "Obviously, the decision to wink is far more complex when viewed through the eyes of a neuroscientist. But does any of this science matter if our subjective experience tells us that we are making a conscious, free choice? - "I would suggest that the truth of our neural inner workings offers significant advantage over a blind faith in a linear notion of free will. We too often treat reality as an immovable fact. It is as if the world were ice and we were unable to see the liquid state inherent to its form. - "Reality is as flexible and as pliable as the mind that we use to perceive it. The self-doubts, anxieties, and judgments that so often dominate our consciousness can be restructured using the same mental tools that our brain employs to retroactively insert the perception of free will." - Comment: Note he does not say there is no free will. Instead he says the brain creates a linear sense of direct causation, which is not really direct. It cannot be direct because it is a biological organ functioning at our behest, and it gears up in various regions antecedently, to do the job required by our direct intention.

Free Will: required by quantum theories

by David Turell @, Thursday, July 26, 2018, 18:39 (2312 days ago) @ David Turell

If quantum mechanics say the reality of the universe is indeterminate, there is no determinism and our will is free:

https://mindmatters.today/2018/07/michael-egnor-asks-can-free-will-even-be-an-illusion/

"senior artificial intelligence research scientist Alfredo Metere explains,
… there is a causal relationship between the Big Bang and us. In other words, free will is not allowed, and all of our actions are just a mere consequence of that first event. Such a view is known as “determinism”, or “super-determinism” (if one finds it productive to reinvent the wheel).

"He asserts that today we know the universe to be chaotic.
Because the cosmos is clearly chaotic, we can observe time-reversibility only locally, rather than globally. This in turn means that free will is an inevitable illusion for us humans, due to our subjective perception of the universe, rather than its innermost nature.

"His is a widespread, conventional view and some are not upset about its implications: For example, Big Data researcher Michal Kosinski, .... told Paul Lewis at the Guardian,
“I don’t believe in guilt, because I don’t believe in free will,” Kosinski tells me, explaining that a person’s thoughts and behaviour “are fully biological, because they originate in the biological computer that you have in your head”. On another occasion he tells me, “If you basically accept that we’re just computers, then computers are not guilty of crime. Computers can malfunction. But then you shouldn’t blame them for it.” The professor adds: “Very much like: you don’t, generally, blame dogs for misbehaving.”

"Neurosurgeon Michael Egnor does not agree and takes exception to the science assertions behind Metere’s claim:

"Succinctly, researchers using Bell’s theoretical insight into quantum entanglement have shown that there are no deterministic local hidden variables. This means that the final state of entangled quantum particles is not determined by any variables in the initial state. Nature at its most fundamental level is indeterminate. The states of bound particles are not determined by any local variable at the moment of separation.

"Bell’s inequality and the experimental work that has followed on it conclusively demonstrate that quantum entanglement, and thus nature, is not determinate, at least locally. There remains the remote possibility of non-local determinism, but that view is considered fringe and is rejected by nearly all physicists working in the field. It is a scientific fact that determinism in nature as commonly understood is simply not true.

"He asks further,

"Why would a scientist of the stature of Metere make such a demonstrably false claim? Is he unaware of Bell’s theorem and the experimental work that followed on it? (Bell’s inequality theorem is taught in undergraduate physics courses.)

"Dr. Egnor raises an interesting question. When a scientist has decided that there is no free will, he tends to lean on whatever science finding would support his view. Metere has decided that the universe is “clearly chaotic” and gleaned from that assumption the idea that there is no free will, even though quantum indeterminacy, a normal science observation, leaves the question open."

Comment: I don't know how chaotic is the universe, fine-tuned as it is and it seems to follow eternal laws. How much quantum mechanics activity the brain uses is not yet known but late choice experiments show how much influence consciousness plays in quantum results.

Free Will: required by quantum theories

by David Turell @, Thursday, November 29, 2018, 01:13 (2187 days ago) @ David Turell

Supported by quasars:

https://mindmatters.ai/2018/11/do-quasars-provide-evidence-for-free-will/

"The question of whether everything is fated is science as well as a philosophy. In physics, a debate has raged for over a century: Can unpredictable things really happen, as quantum mechanics (think, the Uncertainty Principle), demonstrates? Or is there, at bottom, a hidden set of laws that determine everything that happens (determinism), including what you decide to do?

***

"Quantum particles appear to behave randomly when measured. But what if there is no free will? In that case, the physicists were fated, so to speak, to set up the experiment to achieve a certain set of results which might appear to them to be random. But that was fated too.

"Koberlein explains, “It’s often said that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, but it’s really information that can’t travel faster than light. We can send each other telegrams or text messages, but never faster than the time it takes for light to travel between us. In a small lab, light has plenty of time to travel back and forth across the room while the experiment is being set up, so perhaps small bits of information bias the “random” aspect of experiment before it’s even done.”

"That explanation might not seem very convincing if the random results appear time after time. But it would be a good thing to take the physicists out of the picture, so we can be surer.

"As Koberlein points out, that can be done using quasars, which are the brightest objects in the Universe, “thought to be powered by supermassive black holes (black holes with a mass of more than one billion solar masses) which lie at the center of massive galaxies” Physicists cannot influence what quasars do; they can only observe it.

"So what happened when fluctuations from quasars were used instead of a lab’s random number generator?

"The team used random fluctuations in the light from quasars to determine how the photons were measured. Since the light from a quasar has to travel for billions of years to reach us, the fluctuations in brightness happened billions of years before the experiment was done—billions of years before humans even walked the Earth. So, there is absolutely no way for it to be entangled with the experiment.

"The result was just what quantum theory predicts. Thus, it looks like there really are no deterministic hidden variables, and randomness is still possible throughout the cosmos.

"Koberlein cautions, “randomness isn’t the only thing necessary for free will. But it does mean that your fate is not necessarily sealed.”

"For sure. A Darwinian can argue, for example, that our consciousness is an evolved illusion. It enables us to survive and pass on our genes, perhaps in part by “seeing” a randomness that isn’t there. Most of us will conclude from the research, with Koberlein, that free will is at least a possibility and that the principal question is, what factors describe, promote, or hinder its operations?"

Comment: I've mentioned this quasar study before. I sure there is free will on its basis.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 10, 2020, 00:28 (1475 days ago) @ David Turell

In this essay:

https://mindmatters.ai/2020/10/neuroscience-can-help-us-understand-why-free-will-is-real/

"There are three lines of evidence supporting the reality of free will: Neuroscience, physics and philosophy all point to the fact that free will is real. In this post, I’ll discuss the neuroscience. But first, we must start by understanding what free will is. Erroneous definition of free will is at the root of many mistakes inherent in denying it.

***

"Only abstract reason/rational appetite is the will part of free will. Sensitive appetite is not part of the will—it is a passion based wholly on material factors—my brain chemistry, etc. Sensitive appetite is not free—this kind of appetite is indeed dictated by my molecules and neurotransmitters. I can condition it and override it but in itself, it is wholly material and subject to the laws of nature.

"My will—my rational appetite—is an immaterial power of my mind. My will can be influenced by my passions but it is inherently free of material determinism of any kind. For example, my decision whether or not to eat that piece of cake is the result of the struggle between my material passions and my immaterial will—between my sensitive and my rational appetite.

"Now that we have a satisfactory definition of will, what do we mean by free will? Philosopher and theologian Thomas Aquinas gave the best answer: My free will is inclination based on abstract reasoning that arises wholly from me. Nothing other than me determines my will. I determine my will and my will is an immaterial power of my soul. In this specific sense, I have free will.

"Now let’s get to the neuroscience. Neuroscience has a lot to contribute to the debate over free will and all of it supports the reality of free will. There isn’t a shred of neuroscientific evidence that contradicts the reality of free will.

"Two major types of experiments address the question of free will:

"The first is the experiments of Benjamin Libet, ... Libet found that we have pre-conscious impulses characterized by spikes in brain waves that precede conscious decisions by about a half-second. But he also found that these pre-conscious impulses (which are not freely generated) are merely temptations. We retain the power to accept or reject them, and acceptance or rejection of these temptations is not accompanied by brain waves. Libet called this state “free won’t”: We are bombarded by temptations that are beyond our immediate control but we have the immaterial freedom to accept or reject them.

***

"[ second} Penfield performed over a thousand “awake” brain operations on patients with epilepsy. He stimulated their brains and the recorded the effect of stimulation on these awake patients. He found that he was able to stimulate practically any concrete mental phenomenon—movement of limbs, perceptions of light or smell or tactile sensations, emotions, memories—but he was never able to stimulate abstract thought or free will. In his memoir, Mystery of the Mind, he concluded that abstract thought and free will (which he called ‘the mind’ as distinct from automatic responses like perceptions, movements, or emotions) did not originate in the brain, but were immaterial powers of the soul. He began his career as a strict materialist but ended his career as a convinced dualist.

"He also noted a remarkable fact: there are no intellectual seizures, and by implication, no seizures that invoke free will. There are no calculus seizures, no logic seizures, no seizures that make the patients think abstractly or will (apparently) freely. There are no seizures that make you choose to be a Republican or a Democrat, no seizures that make you Christian or Jewish, no seizures that make you apply certain kinds of logic to a problem rather than another kind of logic. This is remarkable: if the will is merely the product of brain activity, at least some seizures should evoke will. They never do. Many seizures do feature complex manifestations (they’re called complex partial seizures), but these complex seizures always involve concrete thoughts and actions —perceptions, emotions, and stereotypic movements. There are no seizures that invoke abstract thought or abstract decisions—there are no free will seizures.

"This remains true to this day. There are no reports in the medical literature—despite literally billons of seizures suffered by patients in the modern era—of any seizure that replicates free will. This remarkable fact—literally based on billions of data points—clearly shows that the will is not determined by the material state of the brain. If the will were determined by neural activity, the will—abstract choice based on reason—would at least occasionally be replicated by seizures. It never is.

Comment: I'm with Penfield. Egnor is a neurosurgeon. And so my proof of dualism is in this essay. The soul uses the brain to produce abstract thought. As a result the complexity of that thought is absolutely dependent on the current ability of that brain to allow that level of abstract thought. It depends on Egnor's definition of will based on Aquinas. It must be of abstract origin. I didn't include it here but read Egnor's discussion of temptation by a delicious piece of cake as not applying. For chocoholics will is presented by denying the wish to eat it.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Tuesday, November 10, 2020, 11:34 (1474 days ago) @ David Turell

QUOTES: "There are three lines of evidence supporting the reality of free will: Neuroscience, physics and philosophy all point to the fact that free will is real. In this post, I’ll discuss the neuroscience. But first, we must start by understanding what free will is. Erroneous definition of free will is at the root of many mistakes inherent in denying it.
My will—my rational appetite—is an immaterial power of my mind. My will can be influenced by my passions but it is inherently free of material determinism of any kind. For example, my decision whether or not to eat that piece of cake is the result of the struggle between my material passions and my immaterial will—between my sensitive and my rational appetite.

"Now that we have a satisfactory definition of will, what do we mean by free will? Philosopher and theologian Thomas Aquinas gave the best answer: My free will is inclination based on abstract reasoning that arises wholly from me. Nothing other than me determines my will. I determine my will and my will is an immaterial power of my soul. In this specific sense, I have free will.

What we call our will cannot exist without consciousness, and nobody knows the origin of consciousness. Simply stating that it is immaterial does not prove that it is not the PRODUCT of materials, and it certainly doesn’t prove that there is such a thing as the soul. Although in a “specific sense” I can agree with Aquinas’s reasoning (see later), the neuroscience proves absolutely nothing. The case against free will is not confined to materialism versus dualism, but encompasses all the influences that shape our decisions and over which we have no control: to what extent are our reactions to choice determined by our genes, our upbringing, our chemical composition, diseases, accidents, experiences etc.? We may feel that our decisions are our own, because the influences are subconscious, but that feeling is hardly a reason for saying that our decisions are “free”, and it ignores the chain of cause and effect, which led Romansh to define free will out of existence, along the lines of the ability to take decisions independently of the universe. (I can’t remember his exact words.)
During those discussions, I defined free will as “an entity's conscious ability to control its decision-making process within given constraints”, the latter comprising constraints “imposed by the environment and our own limitations”. (e.g. our free will cannot enable us to walk out of prison, or flap our arms and fly). If we lay emphasis on all the influences known and unknown that shape our decisions, then I would say it is very difficult to defend the concept of free will, but if we follow Aquinas’s reasoning – regardless of materialism versus dualism – we can say that all the influences, including those that are material, are what constitute our singular identity, and so it is the unique “I” and nobody else who takes the decisions. The problem of defining "free will" is not the word "will" but the question of free from what?

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 10, 2020, 18:40 (1474 days ago) @ dhw

QUOTES: "There are three lines of evidence supporting the reality of free will: Neuroscience, physics and philosophy all point to the fact that free will is real. In this post, I’ll discuss the neuroscience. But first, we must start by understanding what free will is. Erroneous definition of free will is at the root of many mistakes inherent in denying it.
My will—my rational appetite—is an immaterial power of my mind. My will can be influenced by my passions but it is inherently free of material determinism of any kind. For example, my decision whether or not to eat that piece of cake is the result of the struggle between my material passions and my immaterial will—between my sensitive and my rational appetite.

"Now that we have a satisfactory definition of will, what do we mean by free will? Philosopher and theologian Thomas Aquinas gave the best answer: My free will is inclination based on abstract reasoning that arises wholly from me. Nothing other than me determines my will. I determine my will and my will is an immaterial power of my soul. In this specific sense, I have free will.

dhw: What we call our will cannot exist without consciousness, and nobody knows the origin of consciousness. Simply stating that it is immaterial does not prove that it is not the PRODUCT of materials, and it certainly doesn’t prove that there is such a thing as the soul. Although in a “specific sense” I can agree with Aquinas’s reasoning (see later), the neuroscience proves absolutely nothing. The case against free will is not confined to materialism versus dualism, but encompasses all the influences that shape our decisions and over which we have no control: to what extent are our reactions to choice determined by our genes, our upbringing, our chemical composition, diseases, accidents, experiences etc.? We may feel that our decisions are our own, because the influences are subconscious, but that feeling is hardly a reason for saying that our decisions are “free”, and it ignores the chain of cause and effect, which led Romansh to define free will out of existence, along the lines of the ability to take decisions independently of the universe. (I can’t remember his exact words.)
During those discussions, I defined free will as “an entity's conscious ability to control its decision-making process within given constraints”, the latter comprising constraints “imposed by the environment and our own limitations”. (e.g. our free will cannot enable us to walk out of prison, or flap our arms and fly). If we lay emphasis on all the influences known and unknown that shape our decisions, then I would say it is very difficult to defend the concept of free will, but if we follow Aquinas’s reasoning – regardless of materialism versus dualism – we can say that all the influences, including those that are material, are what constitute our singular identity, and so it is the unique “I” and nobody else who takes the decisions. The problem of defining "free will" is not the word "will" but the question of free from what?

I do not follow the logic of the bolded statement, especially the colored material phrase. Certain choices are purely immaterial, such as my affection for you, which at times other readers may suspect. That is Aquinas point. He has removed the material from the issue. He sees our will as free from the material, as I do, for certain decisions, as the tempting slice of cake tells us.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 11:09 (1473 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: What we call our will cannot exist without consciousness, and nobody knows the origin of consciousness. Simply stating that it is immaterial does not prove that it is not the PRODUCT of materials, and it certainly doesn’t prove that there is such a thing as the soul. Although in a “specific sense” I can agree with Aquinas’s reasoning (see later), the neuroscience proves absolutely nothing. The case against free will is not confined to materialism versus dualism, but encompasses all the influences that shape our decisions and over which we have no control: to what extent are our reactions to choice determined by our genes, our upbringing, our chemical composition, diseases, accidents, experiences etc.? We may feel that our decisions are our own, because the influences are subconscious, but that feeling is hardly a reason for saying that our decisions are “free”, and it ignores the chain of cause and effect, which led Romansh to define free will out of existence, along the lines of the ability to take decisions independently of the universe. (I can’t remember his exact words.)

During those discussions, I defined free will as “an entity's conscious ability to control its decision-making process within given constraints”, the latter comprising constraints “imposed by the environment and our own limitations”. (e.g. our free will cannot enable us to walk out of prison, or flap our arms and fly). If we lay emphasis on all the influences known and unknown that shape our decisions, then I would say it is very difficult to defend the concept of free will, but if we follow Aquinas’s reasoning – regardless of materialism versus dualism – we can say that all the influences,including those that are material, are what constitute our singular identity, and so it is the unique “I” and nobody else who takes the decisions. The problem of defining "free will" is not the word "will" but the question of free from what?

DAVID: I do not follow the logic of the bolded statement, especially the colored material phrase. Certain choices are purely immaterial, such as my affection for you, which at times other readers may suspect. That is Aquinas point. He has removed the material from the issue. He sees our will as free from the material, as I do, for certain decisions, as the tempting slice of cake tells us.

Our act of choosing is immaterial, but the influences that make us choose what we choose may be material (e.g. our genes, our chemistry, our current state of health). However, the rest of my bold supports Aquinas, because both the material and the immaterial influences have produced our singular identity, and so it is “I” who choose, and nobody else chooses for me. My definition leaves open the question of whether we do or don’t have free will, and as I said at the end of my post, it all depends on what we are free from. Again, if you mean free from influences beyond our control, I’d say we do not have free will. But if you mean that our decision is free from all constraints other than those imposed by the situation or by our own limitations, then I’d say we do have it.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 18:48 (1473 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: What we call our will cannot exist without consciousness, and nobody knows the origin of consciousness. Simply stating that it is immaterial does not prove that it is not the PRODUCT of materials, and it certainly doesn’t prove that there is such a thing as the soul. Although in a “specific sense” I can agree with Aquinas’s reasoning (see later), the neuroscience proves absolutely nothing. The case against free will is not confined to materialism versus dualism, but encompasses all the influences that shape our decisions and over which we have no control: to what extent are our reactions to choice determined by our genes, our upbringing, our chemical composition, diseases, accidents, experiences etc.? We may feel that our decisions are our own, because the influences are subconscious, but that feeling is hardly a reason for saying that our decisions are “free”, and it ignores the chain of cause and effect, which led Romansh to define free will out of existence, along the lines of the ability to take decisions independently of the universe. (I can’t remember his exact words.)

Egnor's point that brain seizures NEVER produce immaterial thoughts is an answer to your point I now have in green.


dhw: During those discussions, I defined free will as “an entity's conscious ability to control its decision-making process within given constraints”, the latter comprising constraints “imposed by the environment and our own limitations”. (e.g. our free will cannot enable us to walk out of prison, or flap our arms and fly). If we lay emphasis on all the influences known and unknown that shape our decisions, then I would say it is very difficult to defend the concept of free will, but if we follow Aquinas’s reasoning – regardless of materialism versus dualism – we can say that all the influences,including those that are material, are what constitute our singular identity, and so it is the unique “I” and nobody else who takes the decisions. The problem of defining "free will" is not the word "will" but the question of free from what?

DAVID: I do not follow the logic of the bolded statement, especially the colored material phrase. Certain choices are purely immaterial, such as my affection for you, which at times other readers may suspect. That is Aquinas point. He has removed the material from the issue. He sees our will as free from the material, as I do, for certain decisions, as the tempting slice of cake tells us.

dhw: Our act of choosing is immaterial, but the influences that make us choose what we choose may be material (e.g. our genes, our chemistry, our current state of health). However, the rest of my bold supports Aquinas, because both the material and the immaterial influences have produced our singular identity, and so it is “I” who choose, and nobody else chooses for me. My definition leaves open the question of whether we do or don’t have free will, and as I said at the end of my post, it all depends on what we are free from. Again, if you mean free from influences beyond our control, I’d say we do not have free will. But if you mean that our decision is free from all constraints other than those imposed by the situation or by our own limitations, then I’d say we do have it.

We develop our identity as a sum of all factors you list. But our identity is finally a self-construct of ego defense mechanisms, ambitions and purposes, influenced by all those factors you list but not bound by them, so basically free of them. As usual you draw a line in the sand and stand on both sides of it. My immaterial decisions may have to use the brain to create them, but the arise in my immaterial soul /consciousness under my sole control. They may be influenced by past learned concepts which are also immaterial. The only point I can give you is the circumstance of decision making under severe arousal with an adrenalin/serotonin/dopamine rush from extreme excitement, fear, joy or sadness which bathe and influence the neurons at work. Emotions should not be used in decision making as I have always cautioned my children when they were young.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Thursday, November 12, 2020, 12:21 (1472 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: What we call our will cannot exist without consciousness, and nobody knows the origin of consciousness. Simply stating that it is immaterial does not prove that it is not the PRODUCT of materials, and it certainly doesn’t prove that there is such a thing as the soul. Although in a “specific sense” I can agree with Aquinas’s reasoning (see later), the neuroscience proves absolutely nothing. The case against free will is not confined to materialism versus dualism, but encompasses all the influences that shape our decisions and over which we have no control: to what extent are our reactions to choice determined by our genes, our upbringing, our chemical composition, diseases, accidents, experiences etc.? We may feel that our decisions are our own, because the influences are subconscious, but that feeling is hardly a reason for saying that our decisions are “free”, and it ignores the chain of cause and effect, which led Romansh to define free will out of existence, along the lines of the ability to take decisions independently of the universe. (I can’t remember his exact words.)

DAVID: Egnor's point that brain seizures NEVER produce immaterial thoughts is an answer to your point I now have in green.

It was Penrose who discussed seizures, and I don’t follow the logic. Brain seizures cause loss of control and in many cases loss of consciousness. I don’t find it surprising that someone who has lost control and/or consciousness does not think abstractly or make decisions! Sometimes these patients behave irrationally – as do drunkards – but this would suggest that seizures, like alcohol, change the way in which the brain functions, i.e. the state of the brain determines the mode of behaviour. Why would an immaterial, abstractly thinking, decision-making soul be affected?

DAVID: We develop our identity as a sum of all factors you list. But our identity is finally a self-construct of ego defense mechanisms, ambitions and purposes, influenced by all those factors you list but not bound by them, so basically free of them.

That is the big question. Do you regard free will as meaning free from all the influences I have listed that have made you what you are? I don’t see how that is possible. Or do you mean that your decisions are yours and yours alone, free from constraints imposed on you by sources other than the situation and your own limitations? If so, then I agree with you and Aquinas that we do have free will.

DAVID: As usual you draw a line in the sand and stand on both sides of it. My immaterial decisions may have to use the brain to create them, but the arise in my immaterial soul /consciousness under my sole control. They may be influenced by past learned concepts which are also immaterial.

They can also be influenced by past events which are material! Poverty, violence, physical disability, accidents, rape…And part of our identity is already formed by our genes!

DAVID: The only point I can give you is the circumstance of decision making under severe arousal with an adrenalin/serotonin/dopamine rush from extreme excitement, fear, joy or sadness which bathe and influence the neurons at work. Emotions should not be used in decision making as I have always cautioned my children when they were young.

I don’t know what point you are trying to make. You are now emphasizing the influence that our chemicals can have on our decisions. How free are we to control our emotions – and what determines our degree of control? As for your advice to your children, I have no doubt you have been a wonderful father, as I have the greatest respect for your deeply humanitarian ideals and concern for the welfare of others. (Anyone who reads these posts will presume that we are deadly enemies, but we have been friends for many years!) However, there are times when emotions are considerably better guides than reason! As a white European, I fell in love with a black African girl some sixty years ago, at a time when mixed marriages were taboo and I was fully aware of the problems we would face. But the emotion of love has its own reasons. Marrying her was the best decision I ever made. I reckon my children would agree.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Thursday, November 12, 2020, 17:54 (1472 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: What we call our will cannot exist without consciousness, and nobody knows the origin of consciousness. Simply stating that it is immaterial does not prove that it is not the PRODUCT of materials, and it certainly doesn’t prove that there is such a thing as the soul. Although in a “specific sense” I can agree with Aquinas’s reasoning (see later), the neuroscience proves absolutely nothing. The case against free will is not confined to materialism versus dualism, but encompasses all the influences that shape our decisions and over which we have no control: to what extent are our reactions to choice determined by our genes, our upbringing, our chemical composition, diseases, accidents, experiences etc.? We may feel that our decisions are our own, because the influences are subconscious, but that feeling is hardly a reason for saying that our decisions are “free”, and it ignores the chain of cause and effect, which led Romansh to define free will out of existence, along the lines of the ability to take decisions independently of the universe. (I can’t remember his exact words.)

DAVID: Egnor's point that brain seizures NEVER produce immaterial thoughts is an answer to your point I now have in green.

dhw: It was Penrose who discussed seizures, and I don’t follow the logic. Brain seizures cause loss of control and in many cases loss of consciousness. I don’t find it surprising that someone who has lost control and/or consciousness does not think abstractly or make decisions! Sometimes these patients behave irrationally – as do drunkards – but this would suggest that seizures, like alcohol, change the way in which the brain functions, i.e. the state of the brain determines the mode of behaviour. Why would an immaterial, abstractly thinking, decision-making soul be affected?

Seizures are burst of improper electricity. Egnor's point is they never produce immaterial thought which suggests the m Your bold makes the point.


DAVID: We develop our identity as a sum of all factors you list. But our identity is finally a self-construct of ego defense mechanisms, ambitions and purposes, influenced by all those factors you list but not bound by them, so basically free of them.

dhw: That is the big question. Do you regard free will as meaning free from all the influences I have listed that have made you what you are? I don’t see how that is possible. Or do you mean that your decisions are yours and yours alone, free from constraints imposed on you by sources other than the situation and your own limitations? If so, then I agree with you and Aquinas that we do have free will.

We are free to sort out our previous developed prejudice and biases and express new thought. My example: I was raised by parents as a liberal politically. I am now a Libertarian, very grossly different. Your last statement encompassed that approach with Aquinas, and in thatt I agree. I am completely free to change my mind, and so are you.


DAVID: As usual you draw a line in the sand and stand on both sides of it. My immaterial decisions may have to use the brain to create them, but the arise in my immaterial soul /consciousness under my sole control. They may be influenced by past learned concepts which are also immaterial.

dhw: They can also be influenced by past events which are material! Poverty, violence, physical disability, accidents, rape… And part of our identity is already formed by our genes!

Genes help make IQ, but not concepts.


DAVID: The only point I can give you is the circumstance of decision making under severe arousal with an adrenalin/serotonin/dopamine rush from extreme excitement, fear, joy or sadness which bathe and influence the neurons at work. Emotions should not be used in decision making as I have always cautioned my children when they were young.

dhw: I don’t know what point you are trying to make. You are now emphasizing the influence that our chemicals can have on our decisions. How free are we to control our emotions – and what determines our degree of control? As for your advice to your children, I have no doubt you have been a wonderful father, as I have the greatest respect for your deeply humanitarian ideals and concern for the welfare of others. (Anyone who reads these posts will presume that we are deadly enemies, but we have been friends for many years!) However, there are times when emotions are considerably better guides than reason! As a white European, I fell in love with a black African girl some sixty years ago, at a time when mixed marriages were taboo and I was fully aware of the problems we would face. But the emotion of love has its own reasons. Marrying her was the best decision I ever made. I reckon my children would agree.

I have meet your wonderful mixed family. In Jenny I can get a sense of Lisbeth. I admit love is a sensation very hard to override but the results are so wonderful. Why bother as your marriage and mine show?!

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Friday, November 13, 2020, 07:24 (1471 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Brain seizures cause loss of control and in many cases loss of consciousness. I don’t find it surprising that someone who has lost control and/or consciousness does not think abstractly or make decisions! Sometimes these patients behave irrationally – as do drunkards – but this would suggest that seizures, like alcohol, change the way in which the brain functions, i.e. the state of the brain determines the mode of behaviour. Why would an immaterial, abstractly thinking, decision-making soul be affected?

DAVID: Seizures are burst of improper electricity. Egnor's point is they never produce immaterial thought which suggests the m Your bold makes the point.

Yes, my point being that since seizures affect the brain, causing loss of control or of consciousness, or strange behaviour, they do NOT suggest that there is an immaterial, abstractly thinking, decision-making soul.

dhw: Do you regard free will as meaning free from all the influences I have listed that have made you what you are? I don’t see how that is possible. Or do you mean that your decisions are yours and yours alone, free from constraints imposed on you by sources other than the situation and your own limitations? If so, then I agree with you and Aquinas that we do have free will.

DAVID: We are free to sort out our previous developed prejudice and biases and express new thought. My example: I was raised by parents as a liberal politically. I am now a Libertarian, very grossly different. Your last statement encompassed that approach with Aquinas, and in that I agree. I am completely free to change my mind, and so are you.

I have put both arguments across, depending on what you think “free will” is free from. You haven’t told us.

DAVID: As usual you draw a line in the sand and stand on both sides of it. My immaterial decisions may have to use the brain to create them, but the arise in my immaterial soul /consciousness under my sole control. They may be influenced by past learned concepts which are also immaterial.

dhw: They can also be influenced by past events which are material! Poverty, violence, physical disability, accidents, rape… And part of our identity is already formed by our genes!

DAVID: Genes help make IQ, but not concepts.

Of course. And I suggest that our IQ is a major influence on how we make our decisions, and our genes are what we are born with, i.e. a material influence which is beyond our control and which we cannot be free from.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Friday, November 13, 2020, 23:20 (1471 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Brain seizures cause loss of control and in many cases loss of consciousness. I don’t find it surprising that someone who has lost control and/or consciousness does not think abstractly or make decisions! Sometimes these patients behave irrationally – as do drunkards – but this would suggest that seizures, like alcohol, change the way in which the brain functions, i.e. the state of the brain determines the mode of behaviour. Why would an immaterial, abstractly thinking, decision-making soul be affected?

DAVID: Seizures are burst of improper electricity. Egnor's point is they never produce immaterial thought which suggests them Your bold makes the point.

dhw: Yes, my point being that since seizures affect the brain, causing loss of control or of consciousness, or strange behaviour, they do NOT suggest that there is an immaterial, abstractly thinking, decision-making soul.

Exactly wrong. Seizures activate a brain without an active soul. For proper brain activation a soul is required, Egnor's point.


dhw: Do you regard free will as meaning free from all the influences I have listed that have made you what you are? I don’t see how that is possible. Or do you mean that your decisions are yours and yours alone, free from constraints imposed on you by sources other than the situation and your own limitations? If so, then I agree with you and Aquinas that we do have free will.

DAVID: We are free to sort out our previous developed prejudice and biases and express new thought. My example: I was raised by parents as a liberal politically. I am now a Libertarian, very grossly different. Your last statement encompassed that approach with Aquinas, and in that I agree. I am completely free to change my mind, and so are you.

dhw: I have put both arguments across, depending on what you think “free will” is free from. You haven’t told us.

Free will is completely free from material controls


DAVID: As usual you draw a line in the sand and stand on both sides of it. My immaterial decisions may have to use the brain to create them, but the arise in my immaterial soul /consciousness under my sole control. They may be influenced by past learned concepts which are also immaterial.

dhw: They can also be influenced by past events which are material! Poverty, violence, physical disability, accidents, rape… And part of our identity is already formed by our genes!

DAVID: Genes help make IQ, but not concepts.

dhw:Of course. And I suggest that our IQ is a major influence on how we make our decisions, and our genes are what we are born with, i.e. a material influence which is beyond our control and which we cannot be free from.

But that doesn't tie up my expression of my will.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Saturday, November 14, 2020, 11:54 (1470 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Seizures are bursts of improper electricity. Egnor's point is they never produce immaterial thought which suggests them Your bold makes the point.

dhw: Yes, my point being that since seizures affect the brain, causing loss of control or of consciousness, or strange behaviour, they do NOT suggest that there is an immaterial, abstractly thinking, decision-making soul.

DAVID: Exactly wrong. Seizures activate a brain without an active soul. For proper brain activation a soul is required, Egnor's point.

So what do you think the soul is doing during a seizure if the soul and not the brain is the source of our thoughts and our decisions?

dhw: Do you regard free will as meaning free from all the influences I have listed that have made you what you are? I don’t see how that is possible. Or do you mean that your decisions are yours and yours alone, free from constraints imposed on you by sources other than the situation and your own limitations? If so, then I agree with you and Aquinas that we do have free will.

DAVID: We are free to sort out our previous developed prejudice and biases and express new thought. My example: I was raised by parents as a liberal politically. I am now a Libertarian, very grossly different. Your last statement encompassed that approach with Aquinas, and in that I agree. I am completely free to change my mind, and so are you.

dhw: I have put both arguments across, depending on what you think “free will” is free from. You haven’t told us.

DAVID: Free will is completely free from material controls.

How about the controlling influence of our genes?

DAVID: Genes help make IQ, but not concepts.

dhw: Of course. And I suggest that our IQ is a major influence on how we make our decisions, and our genes are what we are born with, i.e. a material influence which is beyond our control and which we cannot be free from.

DAVID: But that doesn't tie up my expression of my will.

The problem is not the expression of your will, which is the implementation of your decision. The problem is why you take the decision in the first place. Are you telling us that your level of intelligence has no influence on your decisions? (NB: I am as usual open to considering both sides of the argument, and I have already explained why I think free will IS possible.)

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Saturday, November 14, 2020, 15:22 (1470 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Seizures are bursts of improper electricity. Egnor's point is they never produce immaterial thought which suggests them Your bold makes the point.

dhw: Yes, my point being that since seizures affect the brain, causing loss of control or of consciousness, or strange behaviour, they do NOT suggest that there is an immaterial, abstractly thinking, decision-making soul.

DAVID: Exactly wrong. Seizures activate a brain without an active soul. For proper brain activation a soul is required, Egnor's point.

dhw: So what do you think the soul is doing during a seizure if the soul and not the brain is the source of our thoughts and our decisions?

The seizure is beyond soul control and occurs without soul activity as an uncontrolled burst of unnecessary electric storm from a focus in the brain.


dhw: Do you regard free will as meaning free from all the influences I have listed that have made you what you are? I don’t see how that is possible. Or do you mean that your decisions are yours and yours alone, free from constraints imposed on you by sources other than the situation and your own limitations? If so, then I agree with you and Aquinas that we do have free will.

DAVID: We are free to sort out our previous developed prejudice and biases and express new thought. My example: I was raised by parents as a liberal politically. I am now a Libertarian, very grossly different. Your last statement encompassed that approach with Aquinas, and in that I agree. I am completely free to change my mind, and so are you.

dhw: I have put both arguments across, depending on what you think “free will” is free from. You haven’t told us.

DAVID: Free will is completely free from material controls.

dhw: How about the controlling influence of our genes?

What control are you thinking of? My genes set a substrate for my personality, but I control how I make my personality.


DAVID: Genes help make IQ, but not concepts.

dhw: Of course. And I suggest that our IQ is a major influence on how we make our decisions, and our genes are what we are born with, i.e. a material influence which is beyond our control and which we cannot be free from.

DAVID: But that doesn't tie up my expression of my will.

dhw: The problem is not the expression of your will, which is the implementation of your decision. The problem is why you take the decision in the first place. Are you telling us that your level of intelligence has no influence on your decisions? (NB: I am as usual open to considering both sides of the argument, and I have already explained why I think free will IS possible.)

The issue is control over the primary decision making. I will stick with my sense of full control.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Sunday, November 15, 2020, 12:00 (1469 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Seizures are bursts of improper electricity. Egnor's point is they never produce immaterial thought which suggests them Your bold makes the point.

dhw: Yes, my point being that since seizures affect the brain, causing loss of control or of consciousness, or strange behaviour, they do NOT suggest that there is an immaterial, abstractly thinking, decision-making soul.

DAVID: Exactly wrong. Seizures activate a brain without an active soul. For proper brain activation a soul is required, Egnor's point.

dhw: So what do you think the soul is doing during a seizure if the soul and not the brain is the source of our thoughts and our decisions?

DAVID: The seizure is beyond soul control and occurs without soul activity as an uncontrolled burst of unnecessary electric storm from a focus in the brain.

My question is not what the soul doesn’t do but what it does do, i.e. if the soul does the thinking and makes the decisions, why does the patient lose control and behave abnormally? Do you think the soul nods off during a seizure, or thinks to itself: this is weird but not much I can do about it?

dhw: I have put both arguments across, depending on what you think “free will” is free from. You haven’t told us.

DAVID: Free will is completely free from material controls.

dhw: How about the controlling influence of our genes?

DAVID: What control are you thinking of? My genes set a substrate for my personality, but I control how I make my personality.

You said that, for example, your genes “help make IQ”. Do you think your intelligence level has no influence on your decisions? Do you think that decisions are not influenced by genetic disorders, or by other material factors such as diseases, accidents, physical traumas such as rape?

DAVID: The issue is control over the primary decision making. I will stick with my sense of full control.

What do you mean by “primary decision making”? The whole question is whether our decisions are free from factors beyond our control. I share your sense of full control, but I recognize that there are both material and immaterial factors that have shaped all my decisions and from which I am not free. And so I can say I do not have free will. On the other hand, I recognize that all those factors have contributed to the unique combination of qualities and defects that make up my unique identity, and so the decisions are taken by “me”. Apart from the limitations imposed by the situation and by my own capabilities, they are free from outside constraints that are not “me”. And so I can say I do have free will.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Sunday, November 15, 2020, 18:04 (1469 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Sunday, November 15, 2020, 18:10

DAVID: Seizures are bursts of improper electricity. Egnor's point is they never produce immaterial thought which suggests them Your bold makes the point.

dhw: Yes, my point being that since seizures affect the brain, causing loss of control or of consciousness, or strange behaviour, they do NOT suggest that there is an immaterial, abstractly thinking, decision-making soul.

DAVID: Exactly wrong. Seizures activate a brain without an active soul. For proper brain activation a soul is required, Egnor's point.

dhw: So what do you think the soul is doing during a seizure if the soul and not the brain is the source of our thoughts and our decisions?

DAVID: The seizure is beyond soul control and occurs without soul activity as an uncontrolled burst of unnecessary electric storm from a focus in the brain.

dhw: My question is not what the soul doesn’t do but what it does do, i.e. if the soul does the thinking and makes the decisions, why does the patient lose control and behave abnormally? Do you think the soul nods off during a seizure, or thinks to itself: this is weird but not much I can do about it?

You forget I posit that the soul must use the brain to think in life. During a seizure the brain cannot work properly as it is subject to an electrical storm. The living soul does n ot think at that moment.


dhw: I have put both arguments across, depending on what you think “free will” is free from. You haven’t told us.

DAVID: Free will is completely free from material controls.

dhw: How about the controlling influence of our genes?

DAVID: What control are you thinking of? My genes set a substrate for my personality, but I control how I make my personality.

dhw: You said that, for example, your genes “help make IQ”. Do you think your intelligence level has no influence on your decisions? Do you think that decisions are not influenced by genetic disorders, or by other material factors such as diseases, accidents, physical traumas such as rape?

I'm talking about normal folks who develop their personality normally. You have brought all sorts of events which can damage a personality, and that aspect is correct. But none of that has damaged my personality. Malaria lead you to a wonderful wife. In that aspect you were changed. But your love was immaterial, remember, and of your free will.


DAVID: The issue is control over the primary decision making. I will stick with my sense of full control.

dhw: What do you mean by “primary decision making”? The whole question is whether our decisions are free from factors beyond our control. I share your sense of full control, but I recognize that there are both material and immaterial factors that have shaped all my decisions and from which I am not free. And so I can say I do not have free will. On the other hand, I recognize that all those factors have contributed to the unique combination of qualities and defects that make up my unique identity, and so the decisions are taken by “me”. Apart from the limitations imposed by the situation and by my own capabilities, they are free from outside constraints that are not “me”. And so I can say I do have free will.

I agree generally. What shapes your thought patterns may change your thinking, but the final thoughts in an decision are yours freely. Final decisions are free at the time they are made.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Monday, November 16, 2020, 14:34 (1468 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: […] if the soul does the thinking and makes the decisions, why does the patient lose control and behave abnormally? Do you think the soul nods off during a seizure, or thinks to itself: this is weird but not much I can do about it?

DAVID: You forget I posit that the soul must use the brain to think in life. During a seizure the brain cannot work properly as it is subject to an electrical storm. The living soul does not think at that moment.

You forget that the soul – if it exists – uses the brain to gather information and to implement its thoughts. In the circumstances, one might have expected the soul to gather information that something has gone wrong with the brain, and dammit, the brain won’t implement the soul’s thoughts that this needs to stop. Have you heard of any patients reporting such thoughts during such seizures? That would really help the cause of dualism.

dhw: You said that, for example, your genes “help make IQ”. Do you think your intelligence level has no influence on your decisions? Do you think that decisions are not influenced by genetic disorders, or by other material factors such as diseases, accidents, physical traumas such as rape?

DAVID: I'm talking about normal folks who develop their personality normally. You have brought all sorts of events which can damage a personality, and that aspect is correct. But none of that has damaged my personality.

Lucky you. I have no idea what you mean by “normal”, but I presume you mean yourself.:-) But the fact that material influences can affect the personality means that material influences can affect the decisions taken by the person concerned. You gave me the example of the IQ but proceeded to ignore it. Would you say your level of intelligence has had an influence on your decision-making?

DAVID: Malaria lead you to a wonderful wife. In that aspect you were changed. But your love was immaterial, remember, and of your free will.

Why don’t you answer my question? Malaria did not change my personality and did not influence my decision to marry the girl I loved. Not all material events influence or change the personality! But all this is only one side of the story, as below:

dhw: On the other hand, I recognize that all those factors have contributed to the unique combination of qualities and defects that make up my unique identity, and so the decisions are taken by “me”. Apart from the limitations imposed by the situation and by my own capabilities, they are free from outside constraints that are not “me”. And so I can say I do have free will.

DAVID: I agree generally. What shapes your thought patterns may change your thinking, but the final thoughts in an decision are yours freely. Final decisions are free at the time they are made.

You agree with my second proposal and try to discount the first. Once again, our view of whether we have free will or not depends on what we think we are free from. Influences that have shaped our personality? I say no. But we are free if we argue that it is our unique personality (including all those influences) that takes the decisions, and we are subject to no constraints other than the limitations imposed by the situation and/or our own capabilities (e.g. we cannot decide to flap our arms and fly).

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Monday, November 16, 2020, 15:36 (1468 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: […] if the soul does the thinking and makes the decisions, why does the patient lose control and behave abnormally? Do you think the soul nods off during a seizure, or thinks to itself: this is weird but not much I can do about it?

DAVID: You forget I posit that the soul must use the brain to think in life. During a seizure the brain cannot work properly as it is subject to an electrical storm. The living soul does not think at that moment.

dhw: You forget that the soul – if it exists – uses the brain to gather information and to implement its thoughts. In the circumstances, one might have expected the soul to gather information that something has gone wrong with the brain, and dammit, the brain won’t implement the soul’s thoughts that this needs to stop. Have you heard of any patients reporting such thoughts during such seizures? That would really help the cause of dualism.

Good point. You imply the possibility the soul separates from a sick brain and has independent experiences/thought as in an NDE. Not fitting the current theory. A sick brain distorts the soul's ability to think properly, as we have previously noted. In a seizure the soul is still brain dependent for experiences and thought. Clear thought/experience not possible.


dhw: You said that, for example, your genes “help make IQ”. Do you think your intelligence level has no influence on your decisions? Do you think that decisions are not influenced by genetic disorders, or by other material factors such as diseases, accidents, physical traumas such as rape?

DAVID: I'm talking about normal folks who develop their personality normally. You have brought all sorts of events which can damage a personality, and that aspect is correct. But none of that has damaged my personality.

dhw: Lucky you. I have no idea what you mean by “normal”, but I presume you mean yourself.:-) But the fact that material influences can affect the personality means that material influences can affect the decisions taken by the person concerned. You gave me the example of the IQ but proceeded to ignore it. Would you say your level of intelligence has had an influence on your decision-making?

Sure it does, but my IQ is both inherited and developed by my own efforts to improve it. I'll stick with an intellect/personality 40% inherited, 40% experienced, and 20% self developed. But the final effect is a decision today is influenced by all in the past freely taken into account and so the immediate decision is freely made.


DAVID: Malaria lead you to a wonderful wife. In that aspect you were changed. But your love was immaterial, remember, and of your free will.

dhw: Why don’t you answer my question? Malaria did not change my personality and did not influence my decision to marry the girl I loved. Not all material events influence or change the personality! But all this is only one side of the story, as below:

dhw: On the other hand, I recognize that all those factors have contributed to the unique combination of qualities and defects that make up my unique identity, and so the decisions are taken by “me”. Apart from the limitations imposed by the situation and by my own capabilities, they are free from outside constraints that are not “me”. And so I can say I do have free will.

DAVID: I agree generally. What shapes your thought patterns may change your thinking, but the final thoughts in an decision are yours freely. Final decisions are free at the time they are made.

dhw: You agree with my second proposal and try to discount the first. Once again, our view of whether we have free will or not depends on what we think we are free from. Influences that have shaped our personality? I say no. But we are free if we argue that it is our unique personality (including all those influences) that takes the decisions, and we are subject to no constraints other than the limitations imposed by the situation and/or our own capabilities (e.g. we cannot decide to flap our arms and fly).

It looks as if we agree. The past influences the decisions we make freely in the present. Romansh's point was our brain particles in action limited our free will since we depend upon them. I ignore that approach as not valid.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 12:18 (1467 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: You forget that the soul – if it exists – uses the brain to gather information and to implement its thoughts. In the circumstances, one might have expected the soul to gather information that something has gone wrong with the brain, and dammit, the brain won’t implement the soul’s thoughts that this needs to stop. Have you heard of any patients reporting such thoughts during such seizures? That would really help the cause of dualism.

DAVID: Good point. You imply the possibility the soul separates from a sick brain and has independent experiences/thought as in an NDE. Not fitting the current theory. A sick brain distorts the soul's ability to think properly, as we have previously noted. In a seizure the soul is still brain dependent for experiences and thought. Clear thought/experience not possible.

I did not say independent experiences. I said the soul (if it exists) uses the brain to gather information and to implement its thoughts. It is the soul that does the thinking, not the brain. (Otherwise you couldn’t even have NDEs.) The fact that a diseased brain gives rise to diseased thought is a powerful argument against dualism.

dhw: You gave me the example of the IQ but proceeded to ignore it. Would you say your level of intelligence has had an influence on your decision-making?

DAVID: Sure it does, but my IQ is both inherited and developed by my own efforts to improve it. I'll stick with an intellect/personality 40% inherited, 40% experienced, and 20% self developed.

Since your intellect and personality are the decision-makers, already you can’t escape 40% of influences beyond your control!

DAVID: But the final effect is a decision today is influenced by all in the past freely taken into account and so the immediate decision is freely made.

How can it be freely made if your intellect and personality are 40% governed by influences beyond your control?

dhw: Once again, our view of whether we have free will or not depends on what we think we are free from. Influences that have shaped our personality? I say no. But we are free if we argue that it is our unique personality (including all those influences) that takes the decisions, and we are subject to no constraints other than the limitations imposed by the situation and/or our own capabilities (e.g. we cannot decide to flap our arms and fly).

DAVID: It looks as if we agree. The past influences the decisions we make freely in the present.

That is not my point. I simply cannot understand why you don’t acknowledge that whether we have free will or not depends on what you mean by “free”: free from influences beyond your control (= no free will), or free from outside constraints other than those imposed by the situation and/or your own capabilities (= free will).

DAVID: Romansh's point was our brain particles in action limited our free will since we depend upon them. I ignore that approach as not valid.

I have a very different memory of his approach, which was based entirely on the principle of cause and effect. I haven’t got time to look up his exact definition, but it was along the lines of decision-making independently of the universe. In other words, he defined it out of existence.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 16:21 (1467 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: You forget that the soul – if it exists – uses the brain to gather information and to implement its thoughts. In the circumstances, one might have expected the soul to gather information that something has gone wrong with the brain, and dammit, the brain won’t implement the soul’s thoughts that this needs to stop. Have you heard of any patients reporting such thoughts during such seizures? That would really help the cause of dualism.

DAVID: Good point. You imply the possibility the soul separates from a sick brain and has independent experiences/thought as in an NDE. Not fitting the current theory. A sick brain distorts the soul's ability to think properly, as we have previously noted. In a seizure the soul is still brain dependent for experiences and thought. Clear thought/experience not possible.

dhw: I did not say independent experiences. I said the soul (if it exists) uses the brain to gather information and to implement its thoughts. It is the soul that does the thinking, not the brain. (Otherwise you couldn’t even have NDEs.) The fact that a diseased brain gives rise to diseased thought is a powerful argument against dualism.

Our difference is the soul in life and death. While living the soul cannot think without the brain. In death or total loss of brain function the soul becomes free to in dependently think. My dualism is not your dualism, as previously noted many times.


dhw: You gave me the example of the IQ but proceeded to ignore it. Would you say your level of intelligence has had an influence on your decision-making?

DAVID: Sure it does, but my IQ is both inherited and developed by my own efforts to improve it. I'll stick with an intellect/personality 40% inherited, 40% experienced, and 20% self developed.

dhw: Since your intellect and personality are the decision-makers, already you can’t escape 40% of influences beyond your control!

40% is in the past and I am making a decision in the present with my personality formed from the past but acting in the present. This is like your strange approach to evolution. Both my personality and evolution develop as continuums. I make free will decisions in the present


DAVID: But the final effect is a decision today is influenced by all in the past freely taken into account and so the immediate decision is freely made.

dhw: How can it be freely made if your intellect and personality are 40% governed by influences beyond your control?

Not governed 'now' is the issue as explained above. My parents raised me as a flaming liberal and now I'm totally opposite as a libertarian.


dhw: Once again, our view of whether we have free will or not depends on what we think we are free from. Influences that have shaped our personality? I say no. But we are free if we argue that it is our unique personality (including all those influences) that takes the decisions, and we are subject to no constraints other than the limitations imposed by the situation and/or our own capabilities (e.g. we cannot decide to flap our arms and fly).

DAVID: It looks as if we agree. The past influences the decisions we make freely in the present.

dhw: That is not my point. I simply cannot understand why you don’t acknowledge that whether we have free will or not depends on what you mean by “free”: free from influences beyond your control (= no free will), or free from outside constraints other than those imposed by the situation and/or your own capabilities (= free will).

The influences of the past shaped the 'me' of now, but my decisions of 'now' are free choices


DAVID: Romansh's point was our brain particles in action limited our free will since we depend upon them. I ignore that approach as not valid.

dhw: I have a very different memory of his approach, which was based entirely on the principle of cause and effect. I haven’t got time to look up his exact definition, but it was along the lines of decision-making independently of the universe. In other words, he defined it out of existence.

That is what I meant by particles of the universe running our decision-making.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Wednesday, November 18, 2020, 11:23 (1466 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I did not say independent experiences. I said the soul (if it exists) uses the brain to gather information and to implement its thoughts. It is the soul that does the thinking, not the brain. (Otherwise you couldn’t even have NDEs.) The fact that a diseased brain gives rise to diseased thought is a powerful argument against dualism.

DAVID: Our difference is the soul in life and death. While living the soul cannot think without the brain. In death or total loss of brain function the soul becomes free to in dependently think. My dualism is not your dualism, as previously noted many times.

While living, the soul cannot gather information or materially implement its thoughts without the brain. We could hardly live our material life without any means of perceiving and using materials! But the dualist's brain does not do the thinking, even in your form of dualism! Therefore it makes no sense to argue that the same soul which processes information from the brain can’t process the information that the brain is acting weirdly. And I thought the whole point of the NDE argument was to prove that there IS such a thing as the soul, and that it does all the thinking. Once again, a diseased brain giving rise to diseased thought suggests that the brain is the source of thought and is an argument against dualism.

dhw: You gave me the example of the IQ but proceeded to ignore it. Would you say your level of intelligence has had an influence on your decision-making?

DAVID: Sure it does, but my IQ is both inherited and developed by my own efforts to improve it. I'll stick with an intellect/personality 40% inherited, 40% experienced, and 20% self developed.

dhw: Since your intellect and personality are the decision-makers, already you can’t escape 40% of influences beyond your control!

DAVID: 40% is in the past and I am making a decision in the present with my personality formed from the past but acting in the present.

Yes, that is a somewhat truncated version of the second half of my argument (in favour of free will). But the first half argues that there is no escape from the influence of the past. The 40% you were born with, plus every other past “cause” that has been beyond your control, influences your present decision (argument against free will). Why can’t you acknowledge that there are two approaches to the subject, and the conclusion depends entirely on what you think free will is free from? The rest of your post circles round the same point.

DAVID: Romansh's point was our brain particles in action limited our free will since we depend upon them. I ignore that approach as not valid.

dhw: I have a very different memory of his approach, which was based entirely on the principle of cause and effect. I haven’t got time to look up his exact definition, but it was along the lines of decision-making independently of the universe. In other words, he defined it out of existence.

DAVID: That is what I meant by particles of the universe running our decision-making.

Sorry, I thought your reference to brain particles was a reference to brain particles.;-)

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 18, 2020, 19:16 (1466 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I did not say independent experiences. I said the soul (if it exists) uses the brain to gather information and to implement its thoughts. It is the soul that does the thinking, not the brain. (Otherwise you couldn’t even have NDEs.) The fact that a diseased brain gives rise to diseased thought is a powerful argument against dualism.

DAVID: Our difference is the soul in life and death. While living the soul cannot think without the brain. In death or total loss of brain function the soul becomes free to independently think. My dualism is not your dualism, as previously noted many times.

dhw: While living, the soul cannot gather information or materially implement its thoughts without the brain. We could hardly live our material life without any means of perceiving and using materials! But the dualist's brain does not do the thinking, even in your form of dualism! Therefore it makes no sense to argue that the same soul which processes information from the brain can’t process the information that the brain is acting weirdly.

A brain under seizure cannot function properly during the time of the seizure. Therefore the soul cannot think during the seizure with the brain basically inoperative for the time the seizure lasts.

dhw And I thought the whole point of the NDE argument was to prove that there IS such a thing as the soul, and that it does all the thinking. Once again, a diseased brain giving rise to diseased thought suggests that the brain is the source of thought and is an argument against dualism.

A diseased brain does not allow the soul to think properly. You are again interpreting my theory based on your underlying theory of dualism which is not mine and it not classical. My dualism asserts the soul must use the brain to create thought while the brain is living.


DAVID: 40% is in the past and I am making a decision in the present with my personality formed from the past but acting in the present.

dhw: Yes, that is a somewhat truncated version of the second half of my argument (in favour of free will). But the first half argues that there is no escape from the influence of the past. The 40% you were born with, plus every other past “cause” that has been beyond your control, influences your present decision (argument against free will). Why can’t you acknowledge that there are two approaches to the subject, and the conclusion depends entirely on what you think free will is free from? The rest of your post circles round the same point.

No circles. I develop my personality from my past and so what is present is a major modification of all those factors, and my point is my present thoughts/desires are a major distillation of all my experiences and continuous thinking. Many past influences are destroyed in the process. It is just like our difference about the process of evolution. I will maintain the principal, that was then, this is now. They relate, but many influences are totally gone.


DAVID: Romansh's point was our brain particles in action limited our free will since we depend upon them. I ignore that approach as not valid.

dhw: I have a very different memory of his approach, which was based entirely on the principle of cause and effect. I haven’t got time to look up his exact definition, but it was along the lines of decision-making independently of the universe. In other words, he defined it out of existence.

DAVID: That is what I meant by particles of the universe running our decision-making.

Sorry, I thought your reference to brain particles was a reference to brain particles.;-)

Great!

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Thursday, November 19, 2020, 10:48 (1465 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: While living, the soul cannot gather information or materially implement its thoughts without the brain. We could hardly live our material life without any means of perceiving and using materials! But the dualist's brain does not do the thinking, even in your form of dualism! Therefore it makes no sense to argue that the same soul which processes information from the brain can’t process the information that the brain is acting weirdly.

DAVID: A brain under seizure cannot function properly during the time of the seizure. Therefore the soul cannot think during the seizure with the brain basically inoperative for the time the seizure lasts.

I don’t understand your “therefore”, if you believe that the soul does the thinking, and only uses the brain for information and for implementation of its thoughts. If it is able to think during an NDE, when the brain “cannot function properly” and is “basically inoperative”, why is it unable to think during a temporary seizure?

dhw: And I thought the whole point of the NDE argument was to prove that there IS such a thing as the soul, and that it does all the thinking. Once again, a diseased brain giving rise to diseased thought suggests that the brain is the source of thought and is an argument against dualism.

DAVID: A diseased brain does not allow the soul to think properly. You are again interpreting my theory based on your underlying theory of dualism which is not mine and it not classical. My dualism asserts the soul must use the brain to create thought while the brain is living.

So does mine. The dualist’s soul creates thought by using the information provided by the brain, and it implements its thoughts by using the brain to give them material expression. There is no other way we could live our material life in the material world. But the dualist’s brain does not think. The “classical” definition of dualism is “the theory that mind and matter are two distinct things” (Oxford Companion to Philosophy). In dualism, the mind = the soul, and does all the thinking. Matter does not think. Yes or no?

DAVID: 40% is in the past and I am making a decision in the present with my personality formed from the past but acting in the present.

dhw: Yes, that is a somewhat truncated version of the second half of my argument (in favour of free will). But the first half argues that there is no escape from the influence of the past. The 40% you were born with, plus every other past “cause” that has been beyond your control, influences your present decision (argument against free will). Why can’t you acknowledge that there are two approaches to the subject, and the conclusion depends entirely on what you think free will is free from? The rest of your post circles round the same point.

DAVID: No circles. I develop my personality from my past and so what is present is a major modification of all those factors, and my point is my present thoughts/desires are a major distillation of all my experiences and continuous thinking. Many past influences are destroyed in the process.

I have presented two arguments. The first is that we are never free from influences beyond our control – hence there is no such thing as free will. The second is what you have presented here: the independent uniqueness of the individual makes him/her the one and only maker of the decision, regardless of the influences, i.e. he/she is free from any outside constraints beyond those imposed by the situation or his/her capabilities. There is no disagreement between us, except that you choose the second option, whereas I recognize the validity of both arguments. It all depends on what you think you are free from.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Thursday, November 19, 2020, 14:59 (1465 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: While living, the soul cannot gather information or materially implement its thoughts without the brain. We could hardly live our material life without any means of perceiving and using materials! But the dualist's brain does not do the thinking, even in your form of dualism! Therefore it makes no sense to argue that the same soul which processes information from the brain can’t process the information that the brain is acting weirdly.

DAVID: A brain under seizure cannot function properly during the time of the seizure. Therefore the soul cannot think during the seizure with the brain basically inoperative for the time the seizure lasts.

dhw: I don’t understand your “therefore”, if you believe that the soul does the thinking, and only uses the brain for information and for implementation of its thoughts. If it is able to think during an NDE, when the brain “cannot function properly” and is “basically inoperative”, why is it unable to think during a temporary seizure?

In Grand Mal seizure the person becomes unconscious from the wave of electricity that covers the brain.


dhw: And I thought the whole point of the NDE argument was to prove that there IS such a thing as the soul, and that it does all the thinking. Once again, a diseased brain giving rise to diseased thought suggests that the brain is the source of thought and is an argument against dualism.

DAVID: A diseased brain does not allow the soul to think properly. You are again interpreting my theory based on your underlying theory of dualism which is not mine and it not classical. My dualism asserts the soul must use the brain to create thought while the brain is living.

dhw: So does mine. The dualist’s soul creates thought by using the information provided by the brain, and it implements its thoughts by using the brain to give them material expression. There is no other way we could live our material life in the material world. But the dualist’s brain does not think. The “classical” definition of dualism is “the theory that mind and matter are two distinct things” (Oxford Companion to Philosophy). In dualism, the mind = the soul, and does all the thinking. Matter does not think. Yes or no?

Yes.


DAVID: 40% is in the past and I am making a decision in the present with my personality formed from the past but acting in the present.

dhw: Yes, that is a somewhat truncated version of the second half of my argument (in favour of free will). But the first half argues that there is no escape from the influence of the past. The 40% you were born with, plus every other past “cause” that has been beyond your control, influences your present decision (argument against free will). Why can’t you acknowledge that there are two approaches to the subject, and the conclusion depends entirely on what you think free will is free from? The rest of your post circles round the same point.

DAVID: No circles. I develop my personality from my past and so what is present is a major modification of all those factors, and my point is my present thoughts/desires are a major distillation of all my experiences and continuous thinking. Many past influences are destroyed in the process.

dhw: I have presented two arguments. The first is that we are never free from influences beyond our control – hence there is no such thing as free will. The second is what you have presented here: the independent uniqueness of the individual makes him/her the one and only maker of the decision, regardless of the influences, i.e. he/she is free from any outside constraints beyond those imposed by the situation or his/her capabilities. There is no disagreement between us, except that you choose the second option, whereas I recognize the validity of both arguments. It all depends on what you think you are free from.

I think your point: 'we are never free from influences beyond our control' is an over-blown view of what influences us. They are background issues we can overcome or ignore.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Friday, November 20, 2020, 11:44 (1464 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: A brain under seizure cannot function properly during the time of the seizure. Therefore the soul cannot think during the seizure with the brain basically inoperative for the time the seizure lasts.

dhw: I don’t understand your “therefore”, if you believe that the soul does the thinking, and only uses the brain for information and for implementation of its thoughts. If it is able to think during an NDE, when the brain “cannot function properly” and is “basically inoperative”, why is it unable to think during a temporary seizure?

DAVID: In Grand Mal seizure the person becomes unconscious from the wave of electricity that covers the brain.

Egnor refers to patients who are conscious, can experience all kinds of thoughts, but: “There are no seizures that invoke abstract thought or abstract decisions—there are no free will seizures.” My question is why are there no abstract thoughts and abstract decisions if the soul and not the incapacitated brain is the source of abstract thought and abstract decisions?

dhw: The dualist’s soul creates thought by using the information provided by the brain, and it implements its thoughts by using the brain to give them material expression. There is no other way we could live our material life in the material world. But the dualist’s brain does not think. The “classical” definition of dualism is “the theory that mind and matter are two distinct things” (Oxford Companion to Philosophy). In dualism, the mind = the soul, and does all the thinking. Matter does not think. Yes or no?

DAVID: Yes.

So do you see my point now? If the soul does the thinking, it should still be able to think abstract thoughts and take decisions (even if it can’t implement them physically). If it can’t, the malfunctioning of the brain indicates that the brain is the source of abstract thoughts and decisions. This, of course, is contradicted by NDEs, in which the unconscious patient is still able to think and even to take decisions (usually overturned, because the patient’s soul is told to go back into the body).

Dhw: There is no disagreement between us, except that you choose the second option, whereas I recognize the validity of both arguments. It all depends on what you think you are free from.

DAVID: I think your point: 'we are never free from influences beyond our control' is an over-blown view of what influences us. They are background issues we can overcome or ignore.

I don’t know how you can claim that 40% of you is inbuilt but it doesn’t influence your decisions. However, we are going round in circles, as usual. The determinist says we are never free from influences beyond our control, so we don’t have free will. You disagree. Your basic argument is that those influences do not change the fact that it is our unique self that makes the decisions, so we do have free will. That is the second option, and I’m sure you will agree that your concept frees us from all constraints other than those of the situation and our own limitations. I really can’t see any disagreement between us.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Friday, November 20, 2020, 22:38 (1464 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: In Grand Mal seizure the person becomes unconscious from the wave of electricity that covers the brain.

dhw: Egnor refers to patients who are conscious, can experience all kinds of thoughts, but: “There are no seizures that invoke abstract thought or abstract decisions—there are no free will seizures.” My question is why are there no abstract thoughts and abstract decisions if the soul and not the incapacitated brain is the source of abstract thought and abstract decisions?

That would be petit mal. and remember I believe while the brain is alive the soul MUST USE the brain to form thoughts.


dhw: The dualist’s soul creates thought by using the information provided by the brain, and it implements its thoughts by using the brain to give them material expression. There is no other way we could live our material life in the material world. But the dualist’s brain does not think. The “classical” definition of dualism is “the theory that mind and matter are two distinct things” (Oxford Companion to Philosophy). In dualism, the mind = the soul, and does all the thinking. Matter does not think. Yes or no?

DAVID: Yes.

dhw: So do you see my point now? If the soul does the thinking, it should still be able to think abstract thoughts and take decisions (even if it can’t implement them physically). If it can’t, the malfunctioning of the brain indicates that the brain is the source of abstract thoughts and decisions. This, of course, is contradicted by NDEs, in which the unconscious patient is still able to think and even to take decisions (usually overturned, because the patient’s soul is told to go back into the body).

Exactly. In my view of dualism, the living soul and the living brain must work together to form/create thoughts.


Dhw: There is no disagreement between us, except that you choose the second option, whereas I recognize the validity of both arguments. It all depends on what you think you are free from.

DAVID: I think your point: 'we are never free from influences beyond our control' is an over-blown view of what influences us. They are background issues we can overcome or ignore.

dhw: I don’t know how you can claim that 40% of you is inbuilt but it doesn’t influence your decisions. However, we are going round in circles, as usual. The determinist says we are never free from influences beyond our control, so we don’t have free will. You disagree. Your basic argument is that those influences do not change the fact that it is our unique self that makes the decisions, so we do have free will. That is the second option, and I’m sure you will agree that your concept frees us from all constraints other than those of the situation and our own limitations. I really can’t see any disagreement between us.

You and I remain apart. The almost 92-year-old me is not the newborn which received a 40% hereditary input, a 40% parental input. Over all those years I have changed my thinking about how to do things, how to decide things. My construction of my current personality is very different than in my childhood. In fact at this point none of my cells except brain neurons are the same and they work with some new additions. Like I view evolution m y life is a continuum of change.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Saturday, November 21, 2020, 07:21 (1463 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: In Grand Mal seizure the person becomes unconscious from the wave of electricity that covers the brain.

dhw: Egnor refers to patients who are conscious, can experience all kinds of thoughts, but: “There are no seizures that invoke abstract thought or abstract decisions—there are no free will seizures.” My question is why are there no abstract thoughts and abstract decisions if the soul and not the incapacitated brain is the source of abstract thought and abstract decisions?

DAVID: That would be petit mal. and remember I believe while the brain is alive the soul MUST USE the brain to form thoughts.

How many more times? You agreed: the soul uses the brain to gather information and to implement its thoughts, and look at this:
dhw: ...in dualism, the mind = the soul, and does all the thinking. Matter does not think. Yes or no?

DAVID: Yes.

dhw: So do you see my point now? If the soul does the thinking, it should still be able to think abstract thoughts and take decisions (even if it can’t implement them physically). If it can’t, the malfunctioning of the brain indicates that the brain is the source of abstract thoughts and decisions. This, of course, is contradicted by NDEs, in which the unconscious patient is still able to think and even to take decisions (usually overturned, because the patient’s soul is told to go back into the body).

DAVID: Exactly. In my view of dualism, the living soul and the living brain must work together to form/create thoughts.

Same as above. Why are you repeating this and ignoring the point that if the soul does the thinking, and the brain does not think, then the soul should be able to think its abstract thoughts when the brain is incapacitated. But according to Egnor it doesn’t! That can only mean that the capacity for abstract thought and decisions comes from the brain.

dhw: I don’t know how you can claim that 40% of you is inbuilt but it doesn’t influence your decisions. However, we are going round in circles, as usual. The determinist says we are never free from influences beyond our control, so we don’t have free will. You disagree. Your basic argument is that those influences do not change the fact that it is our unique self that makes the decisions, so we do have free will. That is the second option, and I’m sure you will agree that your concept frees us from all constraints other than those of the situation and our own limitations. I really can’t see any disagreement between us.

DAVID: You and I remain apart. The almost 92-year-old me is not the newborn which received a 40% hereditary input, a 40% parental input. Over all those years I have changed my thinking about how to do things, how to decide things. My construction of my current personality is very different than in my childhood. In fact at this point none of my cells except brain neurons are the same and they work with some new additions. Like I view evolution m y life is a continuum of change.

And well done you! I’ll bet there aren’t many 92-year-olds as bright or as active as you. Maybe you were born with a high IQ. And as for being so active, there’s an old saying you may have heard of: “It’s all in the genes.” The stepdaughter of a friend of mine is very intelligent, and was once both bright and cheerful. Then she was raped. She is now a semi-recluse and suicidal. All of us change as life goes on, because life is a continual gathering of experiences, some of which can change us completely. Why do we respond as we do? I am by nature a worrier. If something is wrong, I can't rest till it's put right (you may have noticed). This has its good side and its bad side, but I can't make myself not care. It's as if there's a force inside me over which I have no control. A determinist will argue that every effect has a cause, and what seem like free decisions are governed by causes over which we have no control. But you don’t need to explain to me the opposite view (I am "me" and I make my own decisions), which I have already explained to you and which I accept as equally valid. It all depends on what you think free will is free from. I still don't know why you disagree.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Saturday, November 21, 2020, 19:37 (1463 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Egnor refers to patients who are conscious, can experience all kinds of thoughts, but: “There are no seizures that invoke abstract thought or abstract decisions—there are no free will seizures.” My question is why are there no abstract thoughts and abstract decisions if the soul and not the incapacitated brain is the source of abstract thought and abstract decisions?

DAVID: That would be petit mal. and remember I believe while the brain is alive the soul MUST USE the brain to form thoughts.

dhw: How many more times? You agreed: the soul uses the brain to gather information and to implement its thoughts, and look at this:
dhw: ...in dualism, the mind = the soul, and does all the thinking. Matter does not think. Yes or no?

DAVID: Yes.

dhw: So do you see my point now? If the soul does the thinking, it should still be able to think abstract thoughts and take decisions (even if it can’t implement them physically). If it can’t, the malfunctioning of the brain indicates that the brain is the source of abstract thoughts and decisions. This, of course, is contradicted by NDEs, in which the unconscious patient is still able to think and even to take decisions (usually overturned, because the patient’s soul is told to go back into the body).

DAVID: Exactly. In my view of dualism, the living soul and the living brain must work together to form/create thoughts.

dhw: Same as above. Why are you repeating this and ignoring the point that if the soul does the thinking, and the brain does not think, then the soul should be able to think its abstract thoughts when the brain is incapacitated. But according to Egnor it doesn’t! That can only mean that the capacity for abstract thought and decisions comes from the brain.

You are constantly ignoring what I believe in this discussion. I'll repeat as shown by NDE's. The soul MUST use the brain's processes to create thought while the brain is living. It becomes disconnected from that requirement only if the cortex is non-functional or dead. Only at that juncture is the soul free to think totally on it own. You contort that approach to fit what you desire to exist.


dhw: I don’t know how you can claim that 40% of you is inbuilt but it doesn’t influence your decisions. However, we are going round in circles, as usual. The determinist says we are never free from influences beyond our control, so we don’t have free will. You disagree. Your basic argument is that those influences do not change the fact that it is our unique self that makes the decisions, so we do have free will. That is the second option, and I’m sure you will agree that your concept frees us from all constraints other than those of the situation and our own limitations. I really can’t see any disagreement between us.

DAVID: You and I remain apart. The almost 92-year-old me is not the newborn which received a 40% hereditary input, a 40% parental input. Over all those years I have changed my thinking about how to do things, how to decide things. My construction of my current personality is very different than in my childhood. In fact at this point none of my cells except brain neurons are the same and they work with some new additions. Like I view evolution my life is a continuum of change.

dhw: And well done you! I’ll bet there aren’t many 92-year-olds as bright or as active as you. Maybe you were born with a high IQ. And as for being so active, there’s an old saying you may have heard of: “It’s all in the genes.” The stepdaughter of a friend of mine is very intelligent, and was once both bright and cheerful. Then she was raped. She is now a semi-recluse and suicidal. All of us change as life goes on, because life is a continual gathering of experiences, some of which can change us completely. Why do we respond as we do? I am by nature a worrier. If something is wrong, I can't rest till it's put right (you may have noticed). This has its good side and its bad side, but I can't make myself not care. It's as if there's a force inside me over which I have no control. A determinist will argue that every effect has a cause, and what seem like free decisions are governed by causes over which we have no control. But you don’t need to explain to me the opposite view (I am "me" and I make my own decisions), which I have already explained to you and which I accept as equally valid. It all depends on what you think free will is free from. I still don't know why you disagree.

we have different views of ourselves and each other. Have you analyzed yourself to recognize where the worrisome problem comes from? Note I called it a problem. I've spent almost a lifetime in self-analysis ever since I read books by Freud as a teenager. With problems I've had brief counselling twice. I've bolded in your discussion the strongest consideration, which I think applies to all of us who seriously self-evaluate.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Sunday, November 22, 2020, 11:48 (1462 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: If the soul does the thinking, it should still be able to think abstract thoughts and take decisions (even if it can’t implement them physically). If it can’t, the malfunctioning of the brain indicates that the brain is the source of abstract thoughts and decisions. This, of course, is contradicted by NDEs, in which the unconscious patient is still able to think and even to take decisions (usually overturned, because the patient’s soul is told to go back into the body).

DAVID: You are constantly ignoring what I believe in this discussion. I'll repeat as shown by NDE's. The soul MUST use the brain's processes to create thought while the brain is living. It becomes disconnected from that requirement only if the cortex is non-functional or dead. Only at that juncture is the soul free to think totally on it own. You contort that approach to fit what you desire to exist.

There is no contortion. I have pointed out that NDEs CONTRADICT the implications of Egnor’s example. I’ll repeat as shown by seizures: if the soul does the thinking (you have agreed), and only uses the brain for information and for implementing its thoughts, then the soul should be able to produce abstract thoughts even if the brain is incapacitated. Egnor’s point is that it doesn’t, which implies that abstract thoughts come from the brain and not the soul. I am disagreeing with Egnor’s interpretation of seizures. NDEs support the case for a soul, but seizures don’t.

dhw: […] All of us change as life goes on, because life is a continual gathering of experiences, some of which can change us completely. Why do we respond as we do? I am by nature a worrier. If something is wrong, I can't rest till it's put right (you may have noticed). This has its good side and its bad side, but I can't make myself not care. It's as if there's a force inside me over which I have no control. A determinist will argue that every effect has a cause, and what seem like free decisions are governed by causes over which we have no control. But you don’t need to explain to me the opposite view (I am "me" and I make my own decisions), which I have already explained to you and which I accept as equally valid. It all depends on what you think free will is free from. I still don't know why you disagree.

DAVID: we have different views of ourselves and each other. Have you analyzed yourself to recognize where the worrisome problem comes from? Note I called it a problem. I've spent almost a lifetime in self-analysis ever since I read books by Freud as a teenager. With problems I've had brief counselling twice. I've bolded in your discussion the strongest consideration, which I think applies to all of us who seriously self-evaluate.

I don’t call it a problem. I am using it as an illustration of the DETERMINIST case, that behind every decision we make, there are causes over which we have no control. That does not mean we stay the same all through our lives – every change in us (and every decision we make) will have a cause that we may or may not be aware of, going as far back in time as you like. (Romansh took it back to the beginning of the universe!) The converse to the determinist case is the argument that even though these influences have shaped my identity, it is mine and mine alone: nobody and nothing outside “me” forces the individual “me” to make my decisions, apart from the constraints of the situation and of my own limitations, and so the one and only me DOES have free will. I still don’t know why you can’t agree that belief in free will depends on what we think we are free from.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Sunday, November 22, 2020, 16:52 (1462 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: You are constantly ignoring what I believe in this discussion. I'll repeat as shown by NDE's. The soul MUST use the brain's processes to create thought while the brain is living. It becomes disconnected from that requirement only if the cortex is non-functional or dead. Only at that juncture is the soul free to think totally on it own. You contort that approach to fit what you desire to exist.

There is no contortion. I have pointed out that NDEs CONTRADICT the implications of Egnor’s example. I’ll repeat as shown by seizures: if the soul does the thinking (you have agreed), and only uses the brain for information and for implementing its thoughts, then the soul should be able to produce abstract thoughts even if the brain is incapacitated. Egnor’s point is that it doesn’t, which implies that abstract thoughts come from the brain and not the soul. I am disagreeing with Egnor’s interpretation of seizures. NDEs support the case for a soul, but seizures don’t.

The oft repeated bold is a total constant misunderstanding of my and Egnor's thinking about soul/brain arrangement and is your sole concept of the relationship as I see it. To repeat: while living the soul can think only by using the networks of the brains living/functional neurons. It is an absolute requirement. It does also receive info that way. Of course the soul's thoughts are manifest to a living individual through the living brain. Only death or NDE allow the soul to separate and think on its own. Egnor's point is simple. During seizures immaterial concept never appear. Seizures do not cause the soul to think about immaterial concepts. Therefore the brain does not control the soul's thinking. The soul is in control of the brain's production of immaterial thought.


dhw: […] All of us change as life goes on, because life is a continual gathering of experiences, some of which can change us completely. Why do we respond as we do? I am by nature a worrier. If something is wrong, I can't rest till it's put right (you may have noticed). This has its good side and its bad side, but I can't make myself not care. It's as if there's a force inside me over which I have no control. A determinist will argue that every effect has a cause, and what seem like free decisions are governed by causes over which we have no control. But you don’t need to explain to me the opposite view (I am "me" and I make my own decisions), which I have already explained to you and which I accept as equally valid. It all depends on what you think free will is free from. I still don't know why you disagree.

DAVID: we have different views of ourselves and each other. Have you analyzed yourself to recognize where the worrisome problem comes from? Note I called it a problem. I've spent almost a lifetime in self-analysis ever since I read books by Freud as a teenager. With problems I've had brief counselling twice. I've bolded in your discussion the strongest consideration, which I think applies to all of us who seriously self-evaluate.

dhw: I don’t call it a problem. I am using it as an illustration of the DETERMINIST case, that behind every decision we make, there are causes over which we have no control. That does not mean we stay the same all through our lives – every change in us (and every decision we make) will have a cause that we may or may not be aware of, going as far back in time as you like. (Romansh took it back to the beginning of the universe!) The converse to the determinist case is the argument that even though these influences have shaped my identity, it is mine and mine alone: nobody and nothing outside “me” forces the individual “me” to make my decisions, apart from the constraints of the situation and of my own limitations, and so the one and only me DOES have free will. I still don’t know why you can’t agree that belief in free will depends on what we think we are free from.

Note the bold. I think I am free from all those causes, because I can analyze them away. That is freedom. No self introspection, no freedom!!!

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Monday, November 23, 2020, 11:36 (1461 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: […] if the soul does the thinking (you have agreed), and only uses the brain for information and for implementing its thoughts, then the soul should be able to produce abstract thoughts even if the brain is incapacitated.

DAVID: The oft repeated bold is a total constant misunderstanding of my and Egnor's thinking about soul/brain arrangement and is your sole concept of the relationship as I see it. To repeat: while living the soul can think only by using the networks of the brains living/functional neurons. It is an absolute requirement. It does also receive info that way.

But what does the soul use the brain for???? Of course it’s an absolute requirement in life: you cannot live life in the material world without information about the material world and without giving material implementation to your thoughts. What else does the soul use the brain for? Please answer.

DAVID: […] Egnor's point is simple. During seizures immaterial concept never appear. Seizures do not cause the soul to think about immaterial concepts. Therefore the brain does not control the soul's thinking. The soul is in control of the brain's production of immaterial thought.

This is sheer muddle. Who on earth is claiming that seizures CAUSE the soul to think abstractly? Egnor’s point is that the soul doesn’t produce abstract thought or decisions during a seizure. But that can only mean abstract thought and decision-making depend on the brain! It is an argument against the existence of a soul. If, as you say, the brain does not control the soul’s thinking, the soul should be able to think abstract thoughts when the brain is not functioning! And the dualist’s brain does not produce immaterial thought! The soul produces the thought, and the brain gives it material implementation. Friday 20th November:
dhw: In dualism, the mind = the soul, and does all the thinking. Matter does not think. Yes or no?
DAVID: Yes.

dhw: (referring to my own characteristic as a “worrier”): I don’t call it a problem. I am using it as an illustration of the DETERMINIST case, that behind every decision we make, there are causes over which we have no control. […]

DAVID: Note the bold. I think I am free from all those causes, because I can analyze them away. That is freedom. No self introspection, no freedom!!!

You can only analyse those causes you are aware of, and the determinist will argue that we are not even aware of most of the causes. You may indeed “think” you are free (most of us do) but he says you are not. I really can’t understand why you refuse to recognize that there are two different approaches to the subject: 1) we are NOT free from all the causes beyond our control (= no free will); 2) freedom from those causes is irrelevant: what counts is the individuality of the “me” who takes “my” decisions: nobody else takes them for me and I am free from all constraints other than those of the situation and my own limitations (= I have free will). What is your objection to this argument?

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Monday, November 23, 2020, 15:45 (1461 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: […] if the soul does the thinking (you have agreed), and only uses the brain for information and for implementing its thoughts, then the soul should be able to produce abstract thoughts even if the brain is incapacitated.

DAVID: The oft repeated bold is a total constant misunderstanding of my and Egnor's thinking about soul/brain arrangement and is your sole concept of the relationship as I see it. To repeat: while living the soul can think only by using the networks of the brains living/functional neurons. It is an absolute requirement. It does also receive info that way.

dhw: But what does the soul use the brain for???? Of course it’s an absolute requirement in life: you cannot live life in the material world without information about the material world and without giving material implementation to your thoughts. What else does the soul use the brain for? Please answer.

I have answered. The bold is your strange limitation on the theory. The soul creates its immaterial thoughts by using brain neuron networks. My soul is answering you in the immaterial thought created, then translated to my typing fingers.


DAVID: […] Egnor's point is simple. During seizures immaterial concept never appear. Seizures do not cause the soul to think about immaterial concepts. Therefore the brain does not control the soul's thinking. The soul is in control of the brain's production of immaterial thought.

dhw: This is sheer muddle. Who on earth is claiming that seizures CAUSE the soul to think abstractly? Egnor’s point is that the soul doesn’t produce abstract thought or decisions during a seizure. But that can only mean abstract thought and decision-making depend on the brain! It is an argument against the existence of a soul.

You totally misunderstand his import. If a brain is in charge of abstract thought, seizures should produce abstract thought and never does. Soul is required for abstract thought.

dhw: If, as you say, the brain does not control the soul’s thinking, the soul should be able to think abstract thoughts when the brain is not functioning! And the dualist’s brain does not produce immaterial thought! The soul produces the thought, and the brain gives it material implementation. Friday 20th November:
dhw: In dualism, the mind = the soul, and does all the thinking. Matter does not think. Yes or no?
DAVID: Yes.

Still your muddle. Nowhere above do you accept the requirement that in life with a functioning brain the soul MUST use brain circuits to create abstractions. The soul always initiates through use of the material brain .


dhw: (referring to my own characteristic as a “worrier”): I don’t call it a problem. I am using it as an illustration of the DETERMINIST case, that behind every decision we make, there are causes over which we have no control. […]

DAVID: Note the bold. I think I am free from all those causes, because I can analyze them away. That is freedom. No self introspection, no freedom!!!

dhw: You can only analyse those causes you are aware of, and the determinist will argue that we are not even aware of most of the causes. You may indeed “think” you are free (most of us do) but he says you are not. I really can’t understand why you refuse to recognize that there are two different approaches to the subject: 1) we are NOT free from all the causes beyond our control (= no free will); 2) freedom from those causes is irrelevant: what counts is the individuality of the “me” who takes “my” decisions: nobody else takes them for me and I am free from all constraints other than those of the situation and my own limitations (= I have free will). What is your objection to this argument?

I still don 't accept 1) as valid for me. I accept it as a vapid argument. I have analyzed away troubling background issues, with an analyst and on my own.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Tuesday, November 24, 2020, 11:14 (1460 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: […] while living the soul can think only by using the networks of the brains living/functional neurons. It is an absolute requirement. It does also receive info that way.

dhw: But what does the soul use the brain for???? Of course it’s an absolute requirement in life: you cannot live life in the material world without information about the material world and without giving material implementation to your thoughts. What else does the soul use the brain for? Please answer.

DAVID: I have answered. The bold is your strange limitation on the theory. The soul creates its immaterial thoughts by using brain neuron networks.

You have not answered. I keep asking you what the soul uses the brain FOR, other than gathering information and implementing its thoughts. And all you can do is repeat that the soul uses the brain.

DAVID: My soul is answering you in the immaterial thought created, then translated to my typing fingers.

Yes, your dualist’s soul is thinking about the information your brain has provided by enabling you to read my words, and now that your soul has thought up an answer, your brain is guiding your fingers so that you can put your immaterial thoughts into material form. You keep confirming my point, and then trying to disagree!

DAVID: […] Egnor's point is simple. During seizures immaterial concept never appear. Seizures do not cause the soul to think about immaterial concepts. Therefore the brain does not control the soul's thinking. The soul is in control of the brain's production of immaterial thought.

dhw: This is sheer muddle. Who on earth is claiming that seizures CAUSE the soul to think abstractly? Egnor’s point is that the soul doesn’t produce abstract thought or decisions during a seizure. But that can only mean abstract thought and decision-making depend on the brain! It is an argument against the existence of a soul.

DAVID: You totally misunderstand his import. If a brain is in charge of abstract thought, seizures should produce abstract thought and never does. Soul is required for abstract thought.

Why on earth should a malfunctioning brain produce abstract thought? Your materialist will tell you that the malfunction is what PREVENTS it from producing abstract thought! Yes indeed, the dualist’s soul produces abstract thought. But when the brain has a seizure, apparently the soul does NOT produce abstract thought. Why not, if it is the soul and not the brain that does the thinking? But how many patients have recovered and told you and Egnor all about the abstract thoughts they had during the seizure?

DAVID: Nowhere above do you accept the requirement that in life with a functioning brain the soul MUST use brain circuits to create abstractions. The soul always initiates through use of the material brain.

I have explained it umpteen times. Look at my reply to your first comment above! I’ve now bolded it all for you.

dhw: (referring to my own characteristic as a “worrier”): I don’t call it a problem. I am using it as an illustration of the DETERMINIST case, that behind every decision we make, there are causes over which we have no control. […]

DAVID: Note the bold. I think I am free from all those causes, because I can analyze them away. That is freedom. No self introspection, no freedom!!!

dhw: You can only analyse those causes you are aware of, and the determinist will argue that we are not even aware of most of the causes. You may indeed “think” you are free (most of us do) but he says you are not. I really can’t understand why you refuse to recognize that there are two different approaches to the subject: 1) we are NOT free from all the causes beyond our control (= no free will); 2) freedom from those causes is irrelevant: what counts is the individuality of the “me” who takes “my” decisions: nobody else takes them for me and I am free from all constraints other than those of the situation and my own limitations (= I have free will). What is your objection to this argument?

DAVID: I still don't accept 1) as valid for me. I accept it as a vapid argument. I have analyzed away troubling background issues, with an analyst and on my own.

We are not talking about “troubling issues”! We are talking about the causes that influence our decisions. It may not have escaped your notice that some people are more intelligent than others, and some people have better health than others, and sometimes musicians are born to musicians, and mathematicians to mathematicians, and people born into poverty have fewer opportunities in life than richer people etc. These are all factors which may influence people’s decisions but which they cannot control. Hence the determinist argument that we are not “free” from the chain of cause and effect. I have already explained the converse argument which supports the concept of free will, and I remain puzzled by your objection to the proposal that our conclusion depends on our understanding of what the will is supposed to be free from.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Tuesday, November 24, 2020, 14:46 (1460 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I have answered. The bold is your strange limitation on the theory. The soul creates its immaterial thoughts by using brain neuron networks.

dhw: You have not answered. I keep asking you what the soul uses the brain FOR, other than gathering information and implementing its thoughts. And all you can do is repeat that the soul uses the brain.

We do not differ on that point. But in my form of dualism the key point is the soul MUST use the functioning brain to think in life, and can separate and think on its own only in true death or a transiently with non-functioning brain in NDE's. Yes or no?

DAVID: You totally misunderstand [Egnor's]his import. If a brain is in charge of abstract thought, seizures should produce abstract thought and never does. Soul is required for abstract thought.

dhw: Why on earth should a malfunctioning brain produce abstract thought? Your materialist will tell you that the malfunction is what PREVENTS it from producing abstract thought! Yes indeed, the dualist’s soul produces abstract thought. But when the brain has a seizure, apparently the soul does NOT produce abstract thought. Why not, if it is the soul and not the brain that does the thinking? But how many patients have recovered and told you and Egnor all about the abstract thoughts they had during the seizure?

The answer to your question is never. If the brain is the primary source of all thought (materialism) Egnor's point is a seizure should be able to produce such thought and never does. Seizures can produce all sorts of sensory experiences. I had a patient who smelled the ocean!


dhw: (referring to my own characteristic as a “worrier”): I don’t call it a problem. I am using it as an illustration of the DETERMINIST case, that behind every decision we make, there are causes over which we have no control. […]

DAVID: Note the bold. I think I am free from all those causes, because I can analyze them away. That is freedom. No self introspection, no freedom!!!

dhw: You can only analyse those causes you are aware of, and the determinist will argue that we are not even aware of most of the causes. You may indeed “think” you are free (most of us do) but he says you are not. I really can’t understand why you refuse to recognize that there are two different approaches to the subject: 1) we are NOT free from all the causes beyond our control (= no free will); 2) freedom from those causes is irrelevant: what counts is the individuality of the “me” who takes “my” decisions: nobody else takes them for me and I am free from all constraints other than those of the situation and my own limitations (= I have free will). What is your objection to this argument?

DAVID: I still don't accept 1) as valid for me. I accept it as a vapid argument. I have analyzed away troubling background issues, with an analyst and on my own.

dhw: We are not talking about “troubling issues”! We are talking about the causes that influence our decisions. It may not have escaped your notice that some people are more intelligent than others, and some people have better health than others, and sometimes musicians are born to musicians, and mathematicians to mathematicians, and people born into poverty have fewer opportunities in life than richer people etc. These are all factors which may influence people’s decisions but which they cannot control. Hence the determinist argument that we are not “free” from the chain of cause and effect. I have already explained the converse argument which supports the concept of free will, and I remain puzzled by your objection to the proposal that our conclusion depends on our understanding of what the will is supposed to be free from.

You are certainly correct that we are born with certain special abilities that influence them to choose a career path. But there is still free will choice to accept that ability or to do something else. We are free to choose that specific ability or not as we pursue our way in life. That is how I view free will. Your thought implies people are bound to follow only what they may have been given. And unfortunately some never get the opportunity.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Wednesday, November 25, 2020, 11:46 (1459 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw (Monday 23 November): Of course it [use of the brain] is an absolute requirement: you cannot live life in the material world without information about the material world and without giving material implementation to your thoughts. What else does the soul use the brain for?

DAVID: We do not differ on that point. But in my form of dualism the key point is the soul MUST use the functioning brain to think in life, and can separate and think on its own only in true death or a transiently with non-functioning brain in NDE's. Yes or no?

Yes (as above) and yes.

dhw: […] when the brain has a seizure, apparently the soul does NOT produce abstract thought. Why not, if it is the soul and not the brain that does the thinking? But how many patients have recovered and told you and Egnor all about the abstract thoughts they had during the seizure?

DAVID: The answer to your question is never. If the brain is the primary source of all thought (materialism) Egnor's point is a seizure should be able to produce such thought and never does. Seizures can produce all sorts of sensory experiences. I had a patient who smelled the ocean!

So the brain is able to provide information about the material world (sometimes false), but your patients’ souls never come up with abstract thoughts! If the soul does the thinking, what stops it from thinking???? If the soul is the source of consciousness, then it must be conscious of the brain, so why can't it think about the brain's weird behaviour, which itself is information? The only thing that has changed during the seizure is the brain, and so the absence of abstract thinking can only be due to a fault in the brain, which means the brain must be the source of abstract thought! The exact opposite of what you and Egnor are trying to prove.

dhw: We are talking about the causes that influence our decisions. It may not have escaped your notice that some people are more intelligent than others, and some people have better health than others, and sometimes musicians are born to musicians, and mathematicians to mathematicians, and people born into poverty have fewer opportunities in life than richer people etc. These are all factors which may influence people’s decisions but which they cannot control. Hence the determinist argument that we are not “free” from the chain of cause and effect. I have already explained the converse argument which supports the concept of free will, and I remain puzzled by your objection to the proposal that our conclusion depends on our understanding of what the will is supposed to be free from.

DAVID: You are certainly correct that we are born with certain special abilities that influence them to choose a career path. But there is still free will choice to accept that ability or to do something else. We are free to choose that specific ability or not as we pursue our way in life. That is how I view free will. Your thought implies people are bound to follow only what they may have been given. And unfortunately some never get the opportunity.

You keep embracing option 2, which is perfectly reasonable, but the whole point of option 1 is that our choice is influenced by factors over which we have no control. Yes, the individual “me” makes the choice (option 2), but the individual “me” would never have made that choice if it hadn’t been for the fact that he/she was born with certain characteristics, or has been influenced by certain factors (upbringing, experiences, accidents, diseases etc.) beyond his/her control etc. (option 1) Whether you think your will is free or not depends on which of these approaches you take: 1) you are not free from all the causes that have made you what you are and that therefore influence your decision (no free will); 2) you are what you are, regardless of the influences, and it is you who take the decision, and nobody else. You are free from all constraints other than those of the situation and of your own limitations. (You have free will). I still can’t see why you refuse to acknowledge that belief in free will depends on what you think the will is free from
.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 25, 2020, 15:33 (1459 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: We do not differ on that point. But in my form of dualism the key point is the soul MUST use the functioning brain to think in life, and can separate and think on its own only in true death or a transiently with non-functioning brain in NDE's. Yes or no?

Yes (as above) and yes.

Fine.


dhw: […] when the brain has a seizure, apparently the soul does NOT produce abstract thought. Why not, if it is the soul and not the brain that does the thinking? But how many patients have recovered and told you and Egnor all about the abstract thoughts they had during the seizure?

DAVID: The answer to your question is never. If the brain is the primary source of all thought (materialism) Egnor's point is a seizure should be able to produce such thought and never does. Seizures can produce all sorts of sensory experiences. I had a patient who smelled the ocean!

dhw: So the brain is able to provide information about the material world (sometimes false), but your patients’ souls never come up with abstract thoughts!

Weird misinterpretation from nowhere. I've always stated the soul creates abstract thoughts and in life must use the brain circuits.

dhw: If the soul does the thinking, what stops it from thinking???? If the soul is the source of consciousness, then it must be conscious of the brain, so why can't it think about the brain's weird behaviour, which itself is information?

The sick, let's say psychotic, brain stops the soul from rational thinking, since the soul is forced to use the brain to think with in life. Your dualism is muddled.


DAVID: You are certainly correct that we are born with certain special abilities that influence them to choose a career path. But there is still free will choice to accept that ability or to do something else. We are free to choose that specific ability or not as we pursue our way in life. That is how I view free will. Your thought implies people are bound to follow only what they may have been given. And unfortunately some never get the opportunity.

dhw: You keep embracing option 2, which is perfectly reasonable, but the whole point of option 1 is that our choice is influenced by factors over which we have no control. Yes, the individual “me” makes the choice (option 2), but the individual “me” would never have made that choice if it hadn’t been for the fact that he/she was born with certain characteristics, or has been influenced by certain factors (upbringing, experiences, accidents, diseases etc.) beyond his/her control etc. (option 1) Whether you think your will is free or not depends on which of these approaches you take: 1) you are not free from all the causes that have made you what you are and that therefore influence your decision (no free will); 2) you are what you are, regardless of the influences, and it is you who take the decision, and nobody else. You are free from all constraints other than those of the situation and of your own limitations. (You have free will). I still can’t see why you refuse to acknowledge that belief in free will depends on what you think the will is free from

I don't agree. As time passes I can think and analyze about all my past influences, and choose to ignore them. I can be what I wish to be. I'm not like you, always taking both sides of a discussion. You are agnostic on this point, and I have a positive view. Note this also carries over to our discussion about God's personality: yours is wishy-washy and mine very purposeful.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Thursday, November 26, 2020, 10:45 (1458 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: […] when the brain has a seizure, apparently the soul does NOT produce abstract thought. Why not, if it is the soul and not the brain that does the thinking? But how many patients have recovered and told you and Egnor all about the abstract thoughts they had during the seizure?

DAVID: The answer to your question is never. If the brain is the primary source of all thought (materialism) Egnor's point is a seizure should be able to produce such thought and never does. Seizures can produce all sorts of sensory experiences. I had a patient who smelled the ocean!

dhw: So the brain is able to provide information about the material world (sometimes false), but your patients’ souls never come up with abstract thoughts!

DAVID: Weird misinterpretation from nowhere. I've always stated the soul creates abstract thoughts and in life must use the brain circuits.

We are talking about the effects of seizures. The patient’s brain can apparently provide information, but apparently the soul can’t think about it. I asked you why not, and you have answered:

DAVID: The sick, let's say psychotic, brain stops the soul from rational thinking, since the soul is forced to use the brain to think with in life. Your dualism is muddled.

It is your dualism that is muddled. You have agreed that in life the dualist’s soul does the thinking and it uses the brain to provide information and implementation of its thoughts. So the soul should be able to think rationally about information provided by the sick, psychotic brain. It doesn’t. Your patients never tell you that during the seizure they had rational thoughts about what was happening to them. How, then, can you conclude that there is a soul that does the thinking if the soul can’t think when the sick brain sends it information (whether true or false)? The clear implication is that if the patient can’t think rationally when he/she has a brain seizure, it is because the brain is the source of thought!

dhw: Whether you think your will is free or not depends on which of these approaches you take: 1) you are not free from all the causes that have made you what you are and that therefore influence your decision (no free will); 2) you are what you are, regardless of the influences, and it is you who take the decision, and nobody else. You are free from all constraints other than those of the situation and of your own limitations. (You have free will). I still can’t see why you refuse to acknowledge that belief in free will depends on what you think the will is free from.

DAVID: I don't agree. As time passes I can think and analyze about all my past influences, and choose to ignore them. I can be what I wish to be. I'm not like you, always taking both sides of a discussion.

If you actually know ALL your past (and present) influences, you are the superest of all Supermen.

DAVID: You are agnostic on this point, and I have a positive view. Note this also carries over to our discussion about God's personality: yours is wishy-washy and mine very purposeful.

A positive view of one side of an argument indicates a negative view of the other, and although the following most emphatically does not apply to you, positive views of one side at the expense of another have led to the most appalling examples of human conduct, still horribly rife in today’s society. In short, being positive is no guarantee of being right. As for purpose, you totally refuse to accept ANY form of purpose beyond your God designing the universe and life for the sake of designing humans. You refuse to contemplate what purpose your God might have had in designing humans, and you have absolutely no idea what his purpose might have been when designing all the life forms and food supplies that had no connection with humans, or when designing bad bugs. Why you think that creation out of interest is “wishy-washy” I really don’t know. It can hardly be wishy-washier than your inability to come up with a purpose for humans and for bad bugs.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Thursday, November 26, 2020, 15:56 (1458 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: The sick, let's say psychotic, brain stops the soul from rational thinking, since the soul is forced to use the brain to think with in life. Your dualism is muddled.

dhw: It is your dualism that is muddled. You have agreed that in life the dualist’s soul does the thinking and it uses the brain to provide information and implementation of its thoughts. So the soul should be able to think rationally about information provided by the sick, psychotic brain. It doesn’t. Your patients never tell you that during the seizure they had rational thoughts about what was happening to them. How, then, can you conclude that there is a soul that does the thinking if the soul can’t think when the sick brain sends it information (whether true or false)? The clear implication is that if the patient can’t think rationally when he/she has a brain seizure, it is because the brain is the source of thought!

Again total muddle. The schizophrenic brain forces the soul to have schizophrenic thoughts. The soul can only think with the form of brain it has to work with: sick brain, sick thoughts created by the soul working through it and getting the result it is forced to accept..


dhw: Whether you think your will is free or not depends on which of these approaches you take: 1) you are not free from all the causes that have made you what you are and that therefore influence your decision (no free will); 2) you are what you are, regardless of the influences, and it is you who take the decision, and nobody else. You are free from all constraints other than those of the situation and of your own limitations. (You have free will). I still can’t see why you refuse to acknowledge that belief in free will depends on what you think the will is free from.

DAVID: I don't agree. As time passes I can think and analyze about all my past influences, and choose to ignore them. I can be what I wish to be. I'm not like you, always taking both sides of a discussion.

dhw: If you actually know ALL your past (and present) influences, you are the superest of all Supermen.

DAVID: You are agnostic on this point, and I have a positive view. Note this also carries over to our discussion about God's personality: yours is wishy-washy and mine very purposeful.

dhw: A positive view of one side of an argument indicates a negative view of the other, and although the following most emphatically does not apply to you, positive views of one side at the expense of another have led to the most appalling examples of human conduct, still horribly rife in today’s society. In short, being positive is no guarantee of being right. As for purpose, you totally refuse to accept ANY form of purpose beyond your God designing the universe and life for the sake of designing humans. You refuse to contemplate what purpose your God might have had in designing humans, and you have absolutely no idea what his purpose might have been when designing all the life forms and food supplies that had no connection with humans, or when designing bad bugs. Why you think that creation out of interest is “wishy-washy” I really don’t know. It can hardly be wishy-washier than your inability to come up with a purpose for humans and for bad bugs.

Bad bugs may have a purpose we as yet do not know. Some of the attributes about God you seek to know are unknowable, but I have positively decided on a God with a purposeful personality without questioning what He obviously decided to do as evidenced by the history He created. Why do you try to force me to come up with God's purpose? I can't know it. I can guess and you make fun of the guesses. Study God from His works is reasonable, and since humans arrived by the process of evolution, that is what He did, and therefore decided to do, OR was limited to do. All points covered. Anything further is sheer speculation that you like to delve into. I don't.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Friday, November 27, 2020, 11:22 (1457 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The sick, let's say psychotic, brain stops the soul from rational thinking, since the soul is forced to use the brain to think with in life. Your dualism is muddled.

dhw: It is your dualism that is muddled. You have agreed that in life the dualist’s soul does the thinking and it uses the brain to provide information and implementation of its thoughts. So the soul should be able to think rationally about information provided by the sick, psychotic brain. It doesn’t. Your patients never tell you that during the seizure they had rational thoughts about what was happening to them. How, then, can you conclude that there is a soul that does the thinking if the soul can’t think when the sick brain sends it information (whether true or false)? The clear implication is that if the patient can’t think rationally when he/she has a brain seizure, it is because the brain is the source of thought!

DAVID: Again total muddle. The schizophrenic brain forces the soul to have schizophrenic thoughts. The soul can only think with the form of brain it has to work with: sick brain, sick thoughts created by the soul working through it and getting the result it is forced to accept.

Why on earth (as opposed to heaven, or wherever dualists’ souls go to after death) do you need a soul if it is the brain that dictates how the soul thinks? If the brain determines the nature of thoughts, it stands to reason that the brain is the source of the thoughts! This argument makes total nonsense of your concept of free will: “the soul can only think with the form of brain it has to work with”, so clever brain, clever thoughts; stupid brain, stupid thoughts; warped brain, warped thoughts. And these conditions don’t influence your decisions? You could hardly have a more devastating rebuttal of free will (we’ll leave dualism out of it for the time being). But there is another option:

dhw: Whether you think your will is free or not depends on which of these approaches you take: 1) you are not free from all the causes that have made you what you are and that therefore influence your decision (no free will); 2) you are what you are, regardless of the influences, and it is you who take the decision, and nobody else. You are free from all constraints other than those of the situation and of your own limitations. (You have free will). I still can’t see why you refuse to acknowledge that belief in free will depends on what you think the will is free from.

DAVID: I don't agree. As time passes I can think and analyze about all my past influences, and choose to ignore them. I can be what I wish to be. […]

dhw: If you actually know ALL your past (and present) influences, you are the superest of all Supermen.
And I must now add that if your “soul” can only think with the form of brain it has to work with, then the brain will determine what you wish to be.

From this point on, the discussion veered away from free will to your God’s purpose, and so I have transferred it to “Theodicy”.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Friday, November 27, 2020, 18:21 (1457 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Again total muddle. The schizophrenic brain forces the soul to have schizophrenic thoughts. The soul can only think with the form of brain it has to work with: sick brain, sick thoughts created by the soul working through it and getting the result it is forced to accept.

dhw: Why on earth (as opposed to heaven, or wherever dualists’ souls go to after death) do you need a soul if it is the brain that dictates how the soul thinks? If the brain determines the nature of thoughts, it stands to reason that the brain is the source of the thoughts!

Please think if the brain as a tool the soul uses, a point you seem to miss. In schizophrenia the soul's proper thoughts are translated into psychotic thought. The sick brain cannot handle the soul's thoughts properly so they appear distorted.

dhw:This argument makes total nonsense of your concept of free will: “the soul can only think with the form of brain it has to work with”, so clever brain, clever thoughts; stupid brain, stupid thoughts; warped brain, warped thoughts. And these conditions don’t influence your decisions? You could hardly have a more devastating rebuttal of free will (we’ll leave dualism out of it for the time being)

You are simply following your weird concept of the soul/brain arrangement. Each individual with a damaged/incompetent brain expresses his free will within those limits.

dhw: But there is another option:

dhw: Whether you think your will is free or not depends on which of these approaches you take: 1) you are not free from all the causes that have made you what you are and that therefore influence your decision (no free will); 2) you are what you are, regardless of the influences, and it is you who take the decision, and nobody else. You are free from all constraints other than those of the situation and of your own limitations. (You have free will). I still can’t see why you refuse to acknowledge that belief in free will depends on what you think the will is free from.

DAVID: I don't agree. As time passes I can think and analyze about all my past influences, and choose to ignore them. I can be what I wish to be. […]

dhw: If you actually know ALL your past (and present) influences, you are the superest of all Supermen.

No. I'm just trained in psychiatry to enough degree that I have analyzed myself and also with outside help. You can see the past and change.

dhw: And I must now add that if your “soul” can only think with the form of brain it has to work with, then the brain will determine what you wish to be.

See above. We all have limits. I'm not the genius Einstein was. As I've noted in the past the complexity of one's concepts depends on the complex ability of one's brain to allow their production. What you miss is all of us/souls can think with our brain to its limits. The quality of brain limits folks ambitions. I can't replicate Einstein. I can't write plays, but I have become freely what I wished within my limits. Limiting free will does not mean my will is not free within those limits. So I will agree with you in a limited way. We all have limits to our desires about our possible accomplishments in life.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Saturday, November 28, 2020, 11:09 (1456 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Again total muddle. The schizophrenic brain forces the soul to have schizophrenic thoughts. The soul can only think with the form of brain it has to work with: sick brain, sick thoughts created by the soul working through it and getting the result it is forced to accept.

dhw: Why on earth (as opposed to heaven, or wherever dualists’ souls go to after death) do you need a soul if it is the brain that dictates how the soul thinks? If the brain determines the nature of thoughts, it stands to reason that the brain is the source of the thoughts!

DAVID: Please think if the brain as a tool the soul uses, a point you seem to miss.

I have repeated this point over and over again, and have emphasized that the dualist’s soul uses the brain for information and for implementation of its thoughts, and you have agreed.

DAVID: In schizophrenia the soul's proper thoughts are translated into psychotic thought. The sick brain cannot handle the soul's thoughts properly so they appear distorted.

We’re talking about seizures, and you have told us that after a seizure, no patient has ever told you about the “proper” thoughts he had while his brain was distorting them. The obvious conclusion is that the thoughts came from the brain. You don’t need a soul to think proper thoughts which the brain distorts into improper thoughts!

dhw: This argument makes total nonsense of your concept of free will: “the soul can only think with the form of brain it has to work with”, so clever brain, clever thoughts; stupid brain, stupid thoughts; warped brain, warped thoughts. And these conditions don’t influence your decisions? You could hardly have a more devastating rebuttal of free will (we’ll leave dualism out of it for the time being)

DAVID: You are simply following your weird concept of the soul/brain arrangement. Each individual with a damaged/incompetent brain expresses his free will within those limits.

Yes, that is option 2. The incompetent brain is “you”, and “you” alone take your decisions with no constraints other than those of the situation AND YOUR OWN LIMITATIONS. Option 1 is that you cannot help having an incompetent brain – it is something you were born with, and it determines your decisions even if you don’t realize it – as is the case with innumerable other factors that have never been under your control (upbringing, disease, accidents, traumatic experiences imposed from outside yourself…)

dhw: And I must now add that if your “soul” can only think with the form of brain it has to work with, then the brain will determine what you wish to be.

DAVID: See above. We all have limits. I'm not the genius Einstein was. As I've noted in the past the complexity of one's concepts depends on the complex ability of one's brain to allow their production. What you miss is all of us/souls can think with our brain to its limits. The quality of brain limits folks ambitions. I can't replicate Einstein. I can't write plays, but I have become freely what I wished within my limits. Limiting free will does not mean my will is not free within those limits. So I will agree with you in a limited way. We all have limits to our desires about our possible accomplishments in life.

You are agreeing with me in a total way. All this is option 2, as bolded above. And what you are missing is option 1. And our conclusion will depend on which of these approaches we adopt.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Saturday, November 28, 2020, 19:56 (1456 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: In schizophrenia the soul's proper thoughts are translated into psychotic thought. The sick brain cannot handle the soul's thoughts properly so they appear distorted.

dhw: We’re talking about seizures, and you have told us that after a seizure, no patient has ever told you about the “proper” thoughts he had while his brain was distorting them. The obvious conclusion is that the thoughts came from the brain. You don’t need a soul to think proper thoughts which the brain distorts into improper thoughts!

The brain works on electric circuits to produce the soul's thoughts. Seizures force electricity to surge through the brain in whole or in part. That electricity, under no controls produces no thoughts. Therefore the brain, on its own does not/cannot think. The soul produces its thought by managing electrical stimulations of the neuron networks. Schizophrenia is just an example of how the brain handles thoughts in a sickly way to show the soul's dependence on normality in the brain function. You seem confused to me about this soul/brain relationship.


dhw: This argument makes total nonsense of your concept of free will: “the soul can only think with the form of brain it has to work with”, so clever brain, clever thoughts; stupid brain, stupid thoughts; warped brain, warped thoughts. And these conditions don’t influence your decisions? You could hardly have a more devastating rebuttal of free will (we’ll leave dualism out of it for the time being)

Exactly!!! Your bolded phrase is correct!!! They limit your possibilities/range of thought. Sick brains force sick thinking. Limited brain caused limited thinking. The free will expression of thoughts will be sick and limited in a sick brain. Full and 'normal' free will requires a normal brain. Remember the person with a limited brain still has his own free will within the limits. No loss of free will theory.


DAVID: You are simply following your weird concept of the soul/brain arrangement. Each individual with a damaged/incompetent brain expresses his free will within those limits.

dhw: Yes, that is option 2. The incompetent brain is “you”, and “you” alone take your decisions with no constraints other than those of the situation AND YOUR OWN LIMITATIONS. Option 1 is that you cannot help having an incompetent brain – it is something you were born with, and it determines your decisions even if you don’t realize it – as is the case with innumerable other factors that have never been under your control (upbringing, disease, accidents, traumatic experiences imposed from outside yourself…)

Agreed as it fits my exposition of brain neurology of thought.


dhw: And I must now add that if your “soul” can only think with the form of brain it has to work with, then the brain will determine what you wish to be.

DAVID: See above. We all have limits. I'm not the genius Einstein was. As I've noted in the past the complexity of one's concepts depends on the complex ability of one's brain to allow their production. What you miss is all of us/souls can think with our brain to its limits. The quality of brain limits folks ambitions. I can't replicate Einstein. I can't write plays, but I have become freely what I wished within my limits. Limiting free will does not mean my will is not free within those limits. So I will agree with you in a limited way. We all have limits to our desires about our possible accomplishments in life.

dhw: You are agreeing with me in a total way. All this is option 2, as bolded above. And what you are missing is option 1. And our conclusion will depend on which of these approaches we adopt.

As I interpret both your options , both are valid and correct. You are forced to use the brain you are given or develop in illness or whatever circumstance alters its function. But free will is still exercised within the old or new limits that appear.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Sunday, November 29, 2020, 09:24 (1455 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: We’re talking about seizures, and you have told us that after a seizure, no patient has ever told you about the “proper” thoughts he had while his brain was distorting them. The obvious conclusion is that the thoughts came from the brain. You don’t need a soul to think proper thoughts which the brain distorts into improper thoughts!

DAVID: The brain works on electric circuits to produce the soul's thoughts.

Materialist view: the brain works on electric circuits to produce thoughts.

DAVID: Seizures force electricity to surge through the brain in whole or in part. That electricity, under no controls produces no thoughts. Therefore the brain, on its own does not/cannot think. The soul produces its thought by managing electrical stimulations of the neuron networks. Schizophrenia is just an example of how the brain handles thoughts in a sickly way to show the soul's dependence on normality in the brain function. You seem confused to me about this soul/brain relationship.

You have tried to explain the dualist’s perspective. The materialist will tell you that if the sick brain “handles thoughts in a sickly way”, and you end up with sick thoughts, then clearly the brain is the source of thought. There is no role for a "soul" to play. No confusion – just different interpretations. Let’s get back to free will.


dhw: This argument makes total nonsense of your concept of free will: “the soul can only think with the form of brain it has to work with”, so clever brain, clever thoughts; stupid brain, stupid thoughts; warped brain, warped thoughts. And these conditions don’t influence your decisions? You could hardly have a more devastating rebuttal of free will (we’ll leave dualism out of it for the time being)

DAVID: Exactly!!! Your bolded phrase is correct!!! They limit your possibilities/range of thought. Sick brains force sick thinking. Limited brain caused limited thinking. The free will expression of thoughts will be sick and limited in a sick brain. Full and 'normal' free will requires a normal brain.

Aside from the problem of what constitutes “normal”, you’ve almost got it! But if the sick brain forces sick thinking, the determinist will tell you that your thinking is dependent on your brain, and so there is no such thing as free will, and since the nature of thought depends on the brain, the materialist/determinist will tell you that there is no such thing as the “soul”. (NB: as an aside, another form of determinism is religious: it argues that God knows everything, therefore he knows the future, therefore the future is fixed and we don’t have free will. But that too would come under Option 1: you can’t escape the influence of predestination!)

DAVID: Remember the person with a limited brain still has his own free will within the limits. No loss of free will theory.

Yes, that is option 2: we are our individual selves, and are free within the constraints of the situation and our own limitations.

dhw: The incompetent brain is “you”, and “you” alone take your decisions with no constraints other than those of the situation AND YOUR OWN LIMITATIONS. Option 1 is that you cannot help having an incompetent brain – it is something you were born with, and it determines your decisions even if you don’t realize it – as is the case with innumerable other factors that have never been under your control (upbringing, disease, accidents, traumatic experiences imposed from outside yourself…)

DAVID: Agreed as it fits my exposition of brain neurology of thought.
Yes, you agree with option 2, as bolded.

dhw: And I must now add that if your “soul” can only think with the form of brain it has to work with, then the brain will determine what you wish to be.

DAVID: See above. We all have limits. I'm not the genius Einstein was. As I've noted in the past the complexity of one's concepts depends on the complex ability of one's brain to allow their production, etc. etc. […] So I will agree with you in a limited way. We all have limits to our desires about our possible accomplishments in life.

dhw: You are agreeing with me in a total way. All this is option 2, as bolded above. And what you are missing is option 1. And our conclusion will depend on which of these approaches we adopt.

DAVID: As I interpret both your options, both are valid and correct. You are forced to use the brain you are given or develop in illness or whatever circumstance alters its function. But free will is still exercised within the old or new limits that appear.

Yes, both are valid and correct, and so your belief or disbelief in free will depends on which of the approaches you adopt. Thank you for agreeing with me at last! Egnor has “proved” nothing, and I think we can now close this thread.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Sunday, November 29, 2020, 19:22 (1455 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: This argument makes total nonsense of your concept of free will: “the soul can only think with the form of brain it has to work with”, so clever brain, clever thoughts; stupid brain, stupid thoughts; warped brain, warped thoughts. And these conditions don’t influence your decisions? You could hardly have a more devastating rebuttal of free will (we’ll leave dualism out of it for the time being)

DAVID: Exactly!!! Your bolded phrase is correct!!! They limit your possibilities/range of thought. Sick brains force sick thinking. Limited brain caused limited thinking. The free will expression of thoughts will be sick and limited in a sick brain. Full and 'normal' free will requires a normal brain.

dhw: Aside from the problem of what constitutes “normal”, you’ve almost got it! But if the sick brain forces sick thinking, the determinist will tell you that your thinking is dependent on your brain, and so there is no such thing as free will, and since the nature of thought depends on the brain, the materialist/determinist will tell you that there is no such thing as the “soul”. (NB: as an aside, another form of determinism is religious: it argues that God knows everything, therefore he knows the future, therefore the future is fixed and we don’t have free will. But that too would come under Option 1: you can’t escape the influence of predestination!)

I don't care what a determinist thinks about the presence of the soul's relationship to the brain. I am answering from the viewpoint of my theory of dualism, and nothing more, and I don't care if determinists negate the soul. Egnor and I believe in the soul and present our thoughts from that viewpoint.


DAVID: Remember the person with a limited brain still has his own free will within the limits. No loss of free will theory.

dhw: Yes, that is option 2: we are our individual selves, and are free within the constraints of the situation and our own limitations.

Agree.


dhw: The incompetent brain is “you”, and “you” alone take your decisions with no constraints other than those of the situation AND YOUR OWN LIMITATIONS. Option 1 is that you cannot help having an incompetent brain – it is something you were born with, and it determines your decisions even if you don’t realize it – as is the case with innumerable other factors that have never been under your control (upbringing, disease, accidents, traumatic experiences imposed from outside yourself…)

DAVID: Agreed as it fits my exposition of brain neurology of thought.

dhw: Yes, you agree with option 2, as bolded.

Only as it fits my understanding of brain neurology as related to the soul.


dhw: And I must now add that if your “soul” can only think with the form of brain it has to work with, then the brain will determine what you wish to be.

DAVID: See above. We all have limits. I'm not the genius Einstein was. As I've noted in the past the complexity of one's concepts depends on the complex ability of one's brain to allow their production, etc. etc. […] So I will agree with you in a limited way. We all have limits to our desires about our possible accomplishments in life.

dhw: You are agreeing with me in a total way. All this is option 2, as bolded above. And what you are missing is option 1. And our conclusion will depend on which of these approaches we adopt.

DAVID: As I interpret both your options, both are valid and correct. You are forced to use the brain you are given or develop in illness or whatever circumstance alters its function. But free will is still exercised within the old or new limits that appear.

dhw: Yes, both are valid and correct, and so your belief or disbelief in free will depends on which of the approaches you adopt. Thank you for agreeing with me at last! Egnor has “proved” nothing, and I think we can now close this thread.

Egnor's proof is totally valid in this discussion. His point still is if the brain is the lone creator of thoughts (sans soul), uncontrolled electricity from seizures entering the that are used for thinking should create thought and they do not. What is lacking is the driving force from the soul, the true originator of thought by using the brain circuits.

I haven't seen you disprove that considering neither he nor I care about determinism's dismissal of a soul at work.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Monday, November 30, 2020, 14:01 (1454 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: This argument makes total nonsense of your concept of free will: “the soul can only think with the form of brain it has to work with”, so clever brain, clever thoughts; stupid brain, stupid thoughts; warped brain, warped thoughts. And these conditions don’t influence your decisions? You could hardly have a more devastating rebuttal of free will (we’ll leave dualism out of it for the time being)

DAVID: Exactly!!! Your bolded phrase is correct!!! They limit your possibilities/range of thought. Sick brains force sick thinking. Limited brain caused limited thinking. The free will expression of thoughts will be sick and limited in a sick brain. Full and 'normal' free will requires a normal brain.

dhw: Aside from the problem of what constitutes “normal”, you’ve almost got it! But if the sick brain forces sick thinking, the determinist will tell you that your thinking is dependent on your brain, and so there is no such thing as free will, and since the nature of thought depends on the brain, the materialist/determinist will tell you that there is no such thing as the “soul”.

DAVID: I don't care what a determinist thinks about the presence of the soul's relationship to the brain. I am answering from the viewpoint of my theory of dualism, and nothing more, and I don't care if determinists negate the soul. Egnor and I believe in the soul and present our thoughts from that viewpoint.

That’s no problem, except that your comment above does not even mention the soul, and presents a potent argument both for determinism and for materialism.

DAVID: […} We all have limits. I'm not the genius Einstein was. As I've noted in the past the complexity of one's concepts depends on the complex ability of one's brain to allow their production, etc. etc. […] So I will agree with you in a limited way. We all have limits to our desires about our possible accomplishments in life.

dhw: You are agreeing with me in a total way. All this is option 2 […] And what you are missing is option 1. And our conclusion will depend on which of these approaches we adopt.

DAVID: As I interpret both your options, both are valid and correct. You are forced to use the brain you are given or develop in illness or whatever circumstance alters its function. But free will is still exercised within the old or new limits that appear.

dhw: Yes, both are valid and correct, and so your belief or disbelief in free will depends on which of the approaches you adopt. Thank you for agreeing with me at last! Egnor has “proved” nothing, and I think we can now close this thread.

DAVID: Egnor's proof is totally valid in this discussion. His point still is if the brain is the lone creator of thoughts (sans soul), uncontrolled electricity from seizures entering the **** that are used for thinking should create thought and they do not. What is lacking is the driving force from the soul, the true originator of thought by using the brain circuits. I haven't seen you disprove that considering neither he nor I care about determinism's dismissal of a soul at work.

Unfortunately there is a missing noun (see ****). Do you mean the brain cells that materialists believe are used for thinking? If so, you have made the opposite point yourself: “sick brains force sick thinking”. Not no thought but sick thought. If the patient’s sick brain makes him think sick thoughts, how does that prove that the patient has a thinking soul and free will?

Egnor follows option 2, as does Aquinas: “My free will is inclination based on abstract reasoning that arises wholly from me. Nothing other than me determines my will.” But Egnor also says: “…these complex seizures always involve concrete thoughts and actions” but “There are no seizures that invoke abstract thought or abstract decisions—there are no free will seizures.” If the soul is responsible for abstract reasoning, then it should be able to reason about the concrete thoughts that occur when the brain is sick. BUT IT DOESN’T! So how on earth does this “prove” that there is a soul and there is free will? On the contrary, it supports the materialist equation of sick brain = sick thoughts, clever brain = clever thoughts, stupid brain = stupid thoughts. (However, this is contradicted by NDEs, in which abstract reasoning takes place when the brain is not functioning. Hence my own agnosticism on the subject.)

You have now agreed that whether we believe in free will or not depends on what we think the will is free from. Option 1: free from all influences beyond our control (e.g. the nature of our brain). Option 2: free from all constraints other than those imposed by the situation and by our own limitations. These options apply whether you are a dualist or a materialist.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Monday, November 30, 2020, 14:50 (1454 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Yes, both are valid and correct, and so your belief or disbelief in free will depends on which of the approaches you adopt. Thank you for agreeing with me at last! Egnor has “proved” nothing, and I think we can now close this thread.

DAVID: Egnor's proof is totally valid in this discussion. His point still is if the brain is the lone creator of thoughts (sans soul), uncontrolled electricity from seizures entering the neurons that are used for thinking should create thought and they do not. What is lacking is the driving force from the soul, the true originator of thought by using the brain circuits. I haven't seen you disprove that considering neither he nor I care about determinism's dismissal of a soul at work.

dhw: Unfortunately there is a missing noun (neurons). Do you mean the brain cells that materialists believe are used for thinking? If so, you have made the opposite point yourself: “sick brains force sick thinking”. Not no thought but sick thought. If the patient’s sick brain makes him think sick thoughts, how does that prove that the patient has a thinking soul and free will?

Egnor follows option 2, as does Aquinas: “My free will is inclination based on abstract reasoning that arises wholly from me. Nothing other than me determines my will.” But Egnor also says: “…these complex seizures always involve concrete thoughts and actions” but “There are no seizures that invoke abstract thought or abstract decisions—there are no free will seizures.” If the soul is responsible for abstract reasoning, then it should be able to reason about the concrete thoughts that occur when the brain is sick. BUT IT DOESN’T! So how on earth does this “prove” that there is a soul and there is free will? On the contrary, it supports the materialist equation of sick brain = sick thoughts, clever brain = clever thoughts, stupid brain = stupid thoughts. (However, this is contradicted by NDEs, in which abstract reasoning takes place when the brain is not functioning. Hence my own agnosticism on the subject.)

The point is the brain never produces abstract thought during seizures. Only the soul can do that as it uses the brain. You can't avoid that thought.


dhw: You have now agreed that whether we believe in free will or not depends on what we think the will is free from. Option 1: free from all influences beyond our control (e.g. the nature of our brain). Option 2: free from all constraints other than those imposed by the situation and by our own limitations. These options apply whether you are a dualist or a materialist.

Yes.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Tuesday, December 01, 2020, 14:16 (1453 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Egnor follows option 2, as does Aquinas: “My free will is inclination based on abstract reasoning that arises wholly from me. Nothing other than me determines my will.” But Egnor also says: “…these complex seizures always involve concrete thoughts and actions” but “There are no seizures that invoke abstract thought or abstract decisions—there are no free will seizures.” If the soul is responsible for abstract reasoning, then it should be able to reason about the concrete thoughts that occur when the brain is sick. BUT IT DOESN’T! So how on earth does this “prove” that there is a soul and there is free will? On the contrary, it supports the materialist equation of sick brain = sick thoughts, clever brain = clever thoughts, stupid brain = stupid thoughts. (However, this is contradicted by NDEs, in which abstract reasoning takes place when the brain is not functioning. Hence my own agnosticism on the subject.)

DAVID: The point is the brain never produces abstract thought during seizures. Only the soul can do that as it uses the brain. You can't avoid that thought.

The point is that the SOUL never produces abstract thought during seizures, but if only the soul does the thinking (as you have agreed), it should be able to think about the information being sent to it by the sick brain. IT DOESN’T. Conclusion: the mechanism for abstract thought (Egnor equates it with reasoning) has been put out of action by the brain seizure, and therefore the mechanism for abstract thought must be part of the brain. Hence "sick brain = sick thoughts".

dhw: You have now agreed that whether we believe in free will or not depends on what we think the will is free from. Option 1: free from all influences beyond our control (e.g. the nature of our brain). Option 2: free from all constraints other than those imposed by the situation and by our own limitations. These options apply whether you are a dualist or a materialist.

DAVID: Yes.

Thank you.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 01, 2020, 20:10 (1453 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Egnor follows option 2, as does Aquinas: “My free will is inclination based on abstract reasoning that arises wholly from me. Nothing other than me determines my will.” But Egnor also says: “…these complex seizures always involve concrete thoughts and actions” but “There are no seizures that invoke abstract thought or abstract decisions—there are no free will seizures.” If the soul is responsible for abstract reasoning, then it should be able to reason about the concrete thoughts that occur when the brain is sick. BUT IT DOESN’T! So how on earth does this “prove” that there is a soul and there is free will? On the contrary, it supports the materialist equation of sick brain = sick thoughts, clever brain = clever thoughts, stupid brain = stupid thoughts. (However, this is contradicted by NDEs, in which abstract reasoning takes place when the brain is not functioning. Hence my own agnosticism on the subject.)

DAVID: The point is the brain never produces abstract thought during seizures. Only the soul can do that as it uses the brain. You can't avoid that thought.

dhw: The point is that the SOUL never produces abstract thought during seizures, but if only the soul does the thinking (as you have agreed), it should be able to think about the information being sent to it by the sick brain. IT DOESN’T.

No. My view is the soul cannot recognize what is truly going on because it is trapped into using a sick brain. A seizure can produce false sensory information as my sea shore patient's smell of the was a seizure reproducing a memory. The soul did recognize that brain production.

dhw: Conclusion: the mechanism for abstract thought (Egnor equates it with reasoning) has been put out of action by the brain seizure, and therefore the mechanism for abstract thought must be part of the brain. Hence "sick brain = sick thoughts".

Totally backwards. Egnor says if the brain is an exact/primary source of all abstractions, the abnormal electrical impulse, which drives into the abstraction area, and should produce an abstraction during a seizure, but never does. Compared to sensory and movement actions which do occur. That is grand mal. It doesn't produce abstractions. In petit mal consciousness is turned off!!! (They are called 'absence attacks'). Egnor knows exactly what He is presenting. It is logical and correct. For abstract thought the soul must be actively attacked to the brain neurons, and only that arrangement produces abstractions.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Wednesday, December 02, 2020, 12:54 (1452 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The point is the brain never produces abstract thought during seizures. Only the soul can do that as it uses the brain. You can't avoid that thought.

dhw: The point is that the SOUL never produces abstract thought during seizures, but if only the soul does the thinking (as you have agreed), it should be able to think about the information being sent to it by the sick brain. IT DOESN’T.

DAVID: No. My view is the soul cannot recognize what is truly going on because it is trapped into using a sick brain. A seizure can produce false sensory information as my sea shore patient's smell of the [sea] was a seizure reproducing a memory. The soul did recognize that brain production.

First you support Egnor’s contention that during seizures there is no abstract reasoning, and now you tell me that there is abstract reasoning (apparently the patient knew his brain had provided him with false information). This fits in just as easily with the idea that the brain is the source of abstract reasoning, and in this particular case, the seizure had NOT completely paralysed it. There remains the question for a dualist: if the soul does all the abstract reasoning, why in most cases did it NOT reason that the brain was sending it false information? “Trapped into using a sick brain” explains nothing if the immaterial soul uses and processes and reasons about the information given to it by the brain, whether this is sick, normal, stupid or clever.

dhw: Conclusion: the mechanism for abstract thought (Egnor equates it with reasoning) has been put out of action by the brain seizure, and therefore the mechanism for abstract thought must be part of the brain. Hence "sick brain = sick thoughts".

DAVID: Totally backwards. Egnor says if the brain is an exact/primary source of all abstractions, the abnormal electrical impulse, which drives into the abstraction area, and should produce an abstraction during a seizure, but never does.

If the abnormal impulses drive into the brain’s abstraction area, that would explain why the abstraction area does not function any more! Only when the impulses are “normal” will the abstraction area function properly again. The electrical impulses should only affect the brain, not the immaterial “soul” which processes and analyses and reasons about the information provided by the brain. Sick brain = sick thoughts. Therefore the brain produces the thoughts. (In contrast to near-death experiences, which do appear to offer “proof” that there IS a soul which thinks abstract thoughts when the brain isn’t functioning.)

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 02, 2020, 21:01 (1452 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: The point is the brain never produces abstract thought during seizures. Only the soul can do that as it uses the brain. You can't avoid that thought.

dhw: The point is that the SOUL never produces abstract thought during seizures, but if only the soul does the thinking (as you have agreed), it should be able to think about the information being sent to it by the sick brain. IT DOESN’T.

DAVID: No. My view is the soul cannot recognize what is truly going on because it is trapped into using a sick brain. A seizure can produce false sensory information as my sea shore patient's smell of the [sea] was a seizure reproducing a memory. The soul did recognize that brain production.

dhw: First you support Egnor’s contention that during seizures there is no abstract reasoning, and now you tell me that there is abstract reasoning (apparently the patient knew his brain had provided him with false information).

I never said a seizure creates abstract thoughts. Neither does Egnor.

dhw: Conclusion: the mechanism for abstract thought (Egnor equates it with reasoning) has been put out of action by the brain seizure, and therefore the mechanism for abstract thought must be part of the brain. Hence "sick brain = sick thoughts".

DAVID: Totally backwards. Egnor says if the brain is an exact/primary source of all abstractions, the abnormal electrical impulse, which drives into the abstraction area, and should produce an abstraction during a seizure, but never does.

dhw: If the abnormal impulses drive into the brain’s abstraction area, that would explain why the abstraction area does not function any more! Only when the impulses are “normal” will the abstraction area function properly again. The electrical impulses should only affect the brain, not the immaterial “soul” which processes and analyses and reasons about the information provided by the brain. Sick brain = sick thoughts. Therefore the brain produces the thoughts. (In contrast to near-death experiences, which do appear to offer “proof” that there IS a soul which thinks abstract thoughts when the brain isn’t functioning.)

You are so contortedly confused. The abstraction area is absolutely normal before and after the seizure. When the seizure electrical impulse enters the abstraction area it doesn't cause the brain to produce abstractions as it should if the brain was the only and total source of abstractions by itself. In other words the material brain does not have abstract thoughts set up for appearance if electricity stimulates that area. Egnor has produced another essay:

https://mindmatters.ai/2020/12/has-neuroscience-proved-that-the-mind-is-just-the-brain/

"The “hard problem” is another matter entirely: How do material brain states correspond to mental states? How could a certain concentration of chemicals in my brain cause me to do calculus? How could a specific electrochemical gradient in my brain make me feel sad? What is the link?

"The answer, says Chalmers, is that we have no idea how brain states can cause thoughts. There is certainly no explanation provided by science—there is no mathematical formula that links neurons to thoughts and there is no reason to think there ever will be or ever can be. Brains are material, thoughts are immaterial, and there is no way imaginable to explain one by the other. This is why the hard problem (Chalmers himself coined the term in 1995) is hard—it’s not even tractable by neuroscience, let alone solvable.

"Other philosophers have used different terms for the hard problem—Joseph Levine calls it the Explanatory Gap. But the problem is the same. There is no explanation for the mental on the basis of the physical. No physics or chemistry explains thought.

"What is not in doubt is that, to some extent, thoughts correlate with brain activity. On that, dualists and materialists agree. But what is also not in doubt is that there is no materialist explanation—and there cannot be a materialist explanation— for the mind.

***

"The pioneering research of Wilder Penfield in neurosurgery for epilepsy strongly supported dualism. The research on the correlates between brain activity and will by Benjamin Libet supports a dualist interpretation of free will (Libet himself was a property dualist).

"Roger Sperry’s Nobel-prize winning research on split-brain patients clearly supports a non-materialist perspective. Sperry, whose philosophy I would describe as idealist, rejected the prevailing materialism common among neuroscientists:

"'[I rejected] the then prevalent ’mechanistic, materialistic, behavioristic, fatalistic, reductionistic view’ of the ‘nature of mind and psyche’. It was on this occasion that I openly changed my alignment from behaviorist materialism to antimechanistic and nonreductive mentalism…"

"The emerging science of near-death experiences, as well as the evidence for mental activity even in the most profound states of coma, provide powerful evidence for the ability of the mind to function at least somewhat independently of the body. It can be argued that even the strong similarity between the ape brain and the human brain is evidence for dualism because the profound dissimilarity between the human mind and the ape mind cannot be readily explained on a material basis."

I don't have room for more. Study the entry itself for more discussion.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Thursday, December 03, 2020, 12:21 (1451 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The point is the brain never produces abstract thought during seizures. Only the soul can do that as it uses the brain. You can't avoid that thought.

dhw: The point is that the SOUL never produces abstract thought during seizures, but if only the soul does the thinking (as you have agreed), it should be able to think about the information being sent to it by the sick brain. IT DOESN’T.

DAVID: No. My view is the soul cannot recognize what is truly going on because it is trapped into using a sick brain. A seizure can produce false sensory information as my sea shore patient's smell of the [sea] was a seizure reproducing a memory. The soul did recognize that brain production.

dhw: First you support Egnor’s contention that during seizures there is no abstract reasoning, and now you tell me that there is abstract reasoning (apparently the patient knew his brain had provided him with false information).

DAVID: I never said a seizure creates abstract thoughts. Neither does Egnor.

And neither did I. The whole point is that it STOPS abstract thinking/reasoning. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood your example. I thought you said the patient realized during the seizure that the smell of the sea was an illusion, in which case there WAS abstract reasoning, whereas Egnor says there is none during seizures. It doesn’t actually matter, as I explained in my post: the recognition could come from the soul (dualism) or from the part of the brain that is responsible for abstract thinking/reasoning (materialism) but has not been affected by the seizure.

dhw: Conclusion: the mechanism for abstract thought (Egnor equates it with reasoning) has been put out of action by the brain seizure, and therefore the mechanism for abstract thought must be part of the brain. Hence "sick brain = sick thoughts".

DAVID: You are so contortedly confused. The abstraction area is absolutely normal before and after the seizure. When the seizure electrical impulse enters the abstraction area it doesn't cause the brain to produce abstractions as it should if the brain was the only and total source of abstractions by itself.

What “abstraction area”? The whole point of dualism is that abstract thinking and reasoning is the province of the soul and not the brain! Why should an abnormal electrical impulse produce abstract thought in the BRAIN if the source of abstract thought is the soul? We would expect the abnormality to produce an abstract, reasoning response from the SOUL, which should not be affected by abnormal electrical impulses. But there is no reasoning response. After the seizure, presumably there are no more abnormal electrical impulses – the brain returns to normal, and abstract thinking/reasoning is resumed. The obvious conclusion is that part of the cerebrum (or whatever other parts of the brain are believed to produce abstract thought and reasoning) had been knocked out of kilter by the abnormal electrical impulse! The question, then, is not why the brain doesn’t produce abstract thought/reasoning when attacked by an abnormality, but why – if it exists – the SOUL doesn’t do so.

DAVID: Egnor has produced another essay:
https://mindmatters.ai/2020/12/has-neuroscience-proved-that-the-mind-is-just-the-brain/

A neat summary: “There is no explanation for the mental on the basis of the physical. No physics or chemistry explains thought.

Agreed, and he goes on to quote scientists who share his views. However, here is an interesting point:
QUOTE: Sperry, whose philosophy I would describe as idealist, rejected the prevailing materialism common among neuroscientists

In nearly all the subjects we discuss, there are conflicting arguments. I don’t for one moment imagine that materialist neuroscientists know less than Egnor about the brain. The fact that nobody can explain consciousness suggests to me that anyone who thinks he can (either by inventing an immaterial soul or by inventing an unknown formula for physics + chemistry = consciousness) is relying on faith and not on science. Why can't people see that there are usually two sides to these arguments?

QUOTE: "The emerging science of near-death experiences, as well as the evidence for mental activity even in the most profound states of coma, provide powerful evidence for the ability of the mind to function at least somewhat independently of the body.”

I pointed this out in my previous post. The conflict between this and “sick brain = sick thought”, and the fact that consciousness remains a total mystery, make it impossible for me to decide between the two schools of thought. That is why I stay on my fence!

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 03, 2020, 20:34 (1451 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I never said a seizure creates abstract thoughts. Neither does Egnor.

dhw: And neither did I. The whole point is that it STOPS abstract thinking/reasoning. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood your example. I thought you said the patient realized during the seizure that the smell of the sea was an illusion,

The patient experienced a sensory event sent from a brain tumor that repeated a memorized smell, and reported it to me. She was clear she knew it was a problem and the whole event occurred when she was fully aware. It is an example of what is stored in the brain and can triggered into consciousness by an electrical event less than a seizure. this applies to your lack of understanding about abstractions. If memory of smells can be activated when can't the prefrontal cortex (abstraction area) produce a recognized absttraction?

dhw: Conclusion: the mechanism for abstract thought (Egnor equates it with reasoning) has been put out of action by the brain seizure, and therefore the mechanism for abstract thought must be part of the brain. Hence "sick brain = sick thoughts".

DAVID: You are so contortedly confused. The abstraction area is absolutely normal before and after the seizure. When the seizure electrical impulse enters the abstraction area it doesn't cause the brain to produce abstractions as it should if the brain was the only and total source of abstractions by itself.

dhw: What “abstraction area”? The whole point of dualism is that abstract thinking and reasoning is the province of the soul and not the brain! Why should an abnormal electrical impulse produce abstract thought in the BRAIN if the source of abstract thought is the soul?

You constantly ignore the concept that the soul MUST activate and use brain circuits to have any thoughts at all during life. It cannot think without a live brain.

DAVID: Egnor has produced another essay:
https://mindmatters.ai/2020/12/has-neuroscience-proved-that-the-mind-is-just-the-brain/

dhw: A neat summary: “There is no explanation for the mental on the basis of the physical. No physics or chemistry explains thought.

Agreed, and he goes on to quote scientists who share his views. However, here is an interesting point:

QUOTE: Sperry, whose philosophy I would describe as idealist, rejected the prevailing materialism common among neuroscientists

dhw: In nearly all the subjects we discuss, there are conflicting arguments. I don’t for one moment imagine that materialist neuroscientists know less than Egnor about the brain. The fact that nobody can explain consciousness suggests to me that anyone who thinks he can (either by inventing an immaterial soul or by inventing an unknown formula for physics + chemistry = consciousness) is relying on faith and not on science. Why can't people see that there are usually two sides to these arguments?

QUOTE: "The emerging science of near-death experiences, as well as the evidence for mental activity even in the most profound states of coma, provide powerful evidence for the ability of the mind to function at least somewhat independently of the body.”

dhw: I pointed this out in my previous post. The conflict between this and “sick brain = sick thought”, and the fact that consciousness remains a total mystery, make it impossible for me to decide between the two schools of thought. That is why I stay on my fence!

Consciousness is the mystery, not the origin of abstract thought. It comes from a conscious brain, driven by the self, which I name as the soul. Whether the soul is immortal is another outside issue. Egnor's point once again is if the brain alone can produce abstractions by itself, they have never appeared in petit mal or grand mal seizures stimulating the brain to act. But the stored stuff: smells, tastes. sounds, sensory stuff reappears, and do muscle movements of many various types. During brain surgery, experimentally all of this has been reproduced by mild stimulation by the surgeon, but never real thought!!! Real thought, abstractions, cannot be reproduced by stimulation. If the material brain is the real source, why not? You have no answer. This is not at the level of God and/or religion.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Friday, December 04, 2020, 13:05 (1450 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I never said a seizure creates abstract thoughts. Neither does Egnor.

dhw: And neither did I. The whole point is that it STOPS abstract thinking/reasoning. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood your example. I thought you said the patient realized during the seizure that the smell of the sea was an illusion.

DAVID: The patient experienced a sensory event sent from a brain tumor that repeated a memorized smell, and reported it to me. She was clear she knew it was a problem and the whole event occurred when she was fully aware. It is an example of what is stored in the brain and can triggered into consciousness by an electrical event less than a seizure.

I don’t know what you are talking about now. Egnor’s case is based on seizures during which the patient is incapable of abstract reasoning. Now you’re telling me about a case which was not a seizure. So the abnormality hit part of your patient’s brain (the limbic system?) to cause an illusion, and the part of her brain (prefrontal cortex) that is responsible for abstract reasoning (materialist interpretation) was not affected. Where does the soul come into it?

DAVID: When the seizure electrical impulse enters the abstraction area it doesn't cause the brain to produce abstractions as it should if the brain was the only and total source of abstractions by itself.

dhw: What “abstraction area”? The whole point of dualism is that abstract thinking and reasoning is the province of the soul and not the brain! Why should an abnormal electrical impulse produce abstract thought in the BRAIN if the source of abstract thought is the SOUL?

DAVID: You constantly ignore the concept that the soul MUST activate and use brain circuits to have any thoughts at all during life. It cannot think without a live brain.

We have been over this a thousand times. I am the one who constantly has to point out to you that in life the dualist’s soul uses the brain to acquire information and to implement its thoughts, but the abstract reasoning and decision-making (the two focal points of Egnor’s argument) are done by the soul and not by the brain. Therefore it makes no sense to claim that when abnormal electrical impulses hit the brain, the soul becomes incapable of producing abstract reasoning and decisions!

QUOTE: Sperry, whose philosophy I would describe as idealist, rejected the prevailing materialism common among neuroscientists

dhw: In nearly all the subjects we discuss, there are conflicting arguments. I don’t for one moment imagine that materialist neuroscientists know less than Egnor about the brain. […] Why can't people see that there are usually two sides to these arguments?

QUOTE: "The emerging science of near-death experiences, as well as the evidence for mental activity even in the most profound states of coma, provide powerful evidence for the ability of the mind to function at least somewhat independently of the body.”

dhw: I pointed this out in my previous post. The conflict between this and “sick brain = sick thought”, and the fact that consciousness remains a total mystery, make it impossible for me to decide between the two schools of thought. That is why I stay on my fence!

DAVID: Consciousness is the mystery, not the origin of abstract thought. It comes from a conscious brain, driven by the self, which I name as the soul.

Why separate them? Abstract thought and decision-making are products of consciousness, and “no physics or chemistry explains thought” applies to them all. I don’t know how you can talk of a “conscious brain” when dualism attributes consciousness to the soul! Or do you believe that physical, chemical materials can think? Please answer.

DAVID: Egnor's point once again is if the brain alone can produce abstractions by itself, they have never appeared in petit mal or grand mal seizures stimulating the brain to act.

Yes, brains act, and the question is what directs their actions. You’ve just said it is the self or soul that does the driving! But the self or soul should not be affected by abnormal electrical impulses that hit the brain!

DAVID: But the stored stuff: smells, tastes. sounds, sensory stuff reappears, and do muscle movements of many various types. During brain surgery, experimentally all of this has been reproduced by mild stimulation by the surgeon, but never real thought!!! Real thought, abstractions, cannot be reproduced by stimulation. If the material brain is the real source, why not? You have no answer. This is not at the level of God and/or religion.

In your example, the non-seizure affected the sense of smell, but the patient was capable of abstract thinking. This could mean the thinking part of the brain was unaffected, or the soul was unaffected. A seizure is when the patient either loses consciousness completely (grand mal) or loses control and behaves strangely (petit mal). Presumably it’s the latter we’re talking about, and my question again is why an abnormal electrical impulse to the material brain should stop the immaterial soul from exercising control and producing “real thought, abstractions”. "You have no answer." If the brain is the source of abstract reasoning, then it will only be able to reason abstractly again when the seizure is over. And that is what happens.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Friday, December 04, 2020, 19:27 (1450 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I don’t know what you are talking about now. Egnor’s case is based on seizures during which the patient is incapable of abstract reasoning.

That is not Egnor's point. Seizures entering the pre-frontal and frontal cortex should unearth abstract thought if the brain alone is a manufacturer of them.


DAVID: When the seizure electrical impulse enters the abstraction area it doesn't cause the brain to produce abstractions as it should if the brain was the only and total source of abstractions by itself.

dhw: What “abstraction area”? The whole point of dualism is that abstract thinking and reasoning is the province of the soul and not the brain! Why should an abnormal electrical impulse produce abstract thought in the BRAIN if the source of abstract thought is the SOUL?

DAVID: You constantly ignore the concept that the soul MUST activate and use brain circuits to have any thoughts at all during life. It cannot think without a live brain.

dhw: We have been over this a thousand times. I am the one who constantly has to point out to you that in life the dualist’s soul uses the brain to acquire information and to implement its thoughts, but the abstract reasoning and decision-making (the two focal points of Egnor’s argument) are done by the soul and not by the brain. Therefore it makes no sense to claim that when abnormal electrical impulses hit the brain, the soul becomes incapable of producing abstract reasoning and decisions!

That is exactly not what he is claiming!!! See above. Egnor says the brain alone if stimulated NEVER invents an abstract thought on its own, soul not involved.

DAVID: Consciousness is the mystery, not the origin of abstract thought. It comes from a conscious brain, driven by the self, which I name as the soul.

dhw: Why separate them? Abstract thought and decision-making are products of consciousness, and “no physics or chemistry explains thought” applies to them all. I don’t know how you can talk of a “conscious brain” when dualism attributes consciousness to the soul! Or do you believe that physical, chemical materials can think? Please answer.

My opinion has been quite clear!!! The brain can't think by itself. A connected soul must do it using the brain's neuron networks. You are correct. With a connected soul consciousness appears and abstract thought can then be created.


DAVID: Egnor's point once again is if the brain alone can produce abstractions by itself, they have never appeared in petit mal or grand mal seizures stimulating the brain to act.

dhw: Yes, brains act, and the question is what directs their actions. You’ve just said it is the self or soul that does the driving! But the self or soul should not be affected by abnormal electrical impulses that hit the brain!

That is not Egnor's point. He is discussing an electrical impulse hitting abnormally in the brain, NO SOUL AT WORK or PRESENT. If the brain alone can produce abstractions, why don't they appear ever stimulated by electrical impulses?


DAVID: But the stored stuff: smells, tastes. sounds, sensory stuff reappears, and do muscle movements of many various types. During brain surgery, experimentally all of this has been reproduced by mild stimulation by the surgeon, but never real thought!!! Real thought, abstractions, cannot be reproduced by stimulation. If the material brain is the real source, why not? You have no answer. This is not at the level of God and/or religion.

dhw: In your example, the non-seizure affected the sense of smell, but the patient was capable of abstract thinking. This could mean the thinking part of the brain was unaffected, or the soul was unaffected. A seizure is when the patient either loses consciousness completely (grand mal) or loses control and behaves strangely (petit mal). Presumably it’s the latter we’re talking about, and my question again is why an abnormal electrical impulse to the material brain should stop the immaterial soul from exercising control and producing “real thought, abstractions”. "You have no answer." If the brain is the source of abstract reasoning, then it will only be able to reason abstractly again when the seizure is over. And that is what happens.

Egnor does not define the type of seizure, so I've defined both. Your understanding of his point is totally confused. I've given you his view above. I accept it. Electrical impulses drive neurons to produce thought, only if the soul is driving the impulses. They never appear in seizures if ONLY the brain is involved in the activity of producing abstractions.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Saturday, December 05, 2020, 08:24 (1449 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I don’t know what you are talking about now. Egnor’s case is based on seizures during which the patient is incapable of abstract reasoning.

DAVID: That is not Egnor's point. Seizures entering the pre-frontal and frontal cortex should unearth abstract thought if the brain alone is a manufacturer of them.

So let’s forget your patient, who did not have a seizure. The whole point about any illness is that it stops certain parts of the body from functioning as they normally do. The cure allows the body to function normally again. In a seizure, once the abnormal electrical impulses have stopped messing with the brain, the patient can think normally again. Yes or no? The clear conclusion must therefore be that just like the rest of the body, the thinking brain resumes normal service once the abnormality has been removed. But if the soul is responsible for abstract thinking, please tell me why, if a non-reasoning brain is sick, the soul is unable to reason.

DAVID: When the seizure electrical impulse enters the abstraction area it doesn't cause the brain to produce abstractions as it should if the brain was the only and total source of abstractions by itself.

dhw: […] it makes no sense to claim that when abnormal electrical impulses hit the brain, the soul becomes incapable of producing abstract reasoning and decisions!

DAVID: That is exactly not what he is claiming!!! See above. Egnor says the brain alone if stimulated NEVER invents an abstract thought on its own, soul not involved.

I know what he is claiming, and it doesn’t make sense. During a seizure the brain is incapacitated! In a grand mal it’s unconscious; in a petit mal it has varying degrees of consciousness. It is sick! Only when the sickness ends does it regain its normal consciousness and powers of reasoning. Once more: if the soul is the source of abstract reasoning, why is it unable to think abstractly just because the brain is sick?

DAVID: Consciousness is the mystery, not the origin of abstract thought. It comes from a conscious brain, driven by the self, which I name as the soul.

dhw: Why separate them? Abstract thought and decision-making are products of consciousness, and “no physics or chemistry explains thought” applies to them all. I don’t know how you can talk of a “conscious brain” when dualism attributes consciousness to the soul! Or do you believe that physical, chemical materials can think? Please answer.

DAVID: My opinion has been quite clear!!! The brain can't think by itself. A connected soul must do it using the brain's neuron networks. You are correct. With a connected soul consciousness appears and abstract thought can then be created.

You have not answered my question, but you have agreed over and over again that the dualist’s material brain can’t think...full stop. The thinking soul uses the brain (for information and implementation). So a dualist cannot talk of a conscious brain. That is the materialist’s view.

DAVID: Egnor's point once again is if the brain alone can produce abstractions by itself, they have never appeared in petit mal or grand mal seizures stimulating the brain to act.

dhw: Yes, brains act, and the question is what directs their actions. You’ve just said it is the self or soul that does the driving! But the self or soul should not be affected by abnormal electrical impulses that hit the brain!

DAVID: That is not Egnor's point. He is discussing an electrical impulse hitting abnormally in the brain, NO SOUL AT WORK or PRESENT. If the brain alone can produce abstractions, why don't they appear ever stimulated by electrical impulses?

You keep telling me my point is not Egnor’s point. I know. I am opposing Egnor, and so are you, though you don’t realize it. The brain is now abnormal because it has been incapacitated by abnormal electrical impulses! And so it can’t produce its normal abstractions. Why all of a sudden is the soul not at work or present? If the soul is the immaterial source of abstractions, then it should not be affected by the material damage to the material brain.

DAVID: Electrical impulses drive neurons to produce thought, only if the soul is driving the impulses. They never appear in seizures if ONLY the brain is involved in the activity of producing abstractions.

What does this mean? A seizure denotes an abnormality in the brain. The electrical impulses are abnormal. And so the thoughts are abnormal. Are you now saying that the soul produces abnormal electrical impulses and therefore brain seizures are caused by an abnormality in the soul? Once more: 1) if the soul is the producer of abstract thought, why doesn’t it carry on producing abstract thought when the immaterial brain is incapacitated? 2) Why is it that while the brain is sick, the thoughts are sick and non-abstract, but when the brain is “cured”, normal abstract thoughts return?

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 05, 2020, 19:11 (1449 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: That is not Egnor's point. Seizures entering the pre-frontal and frontal cortex should unearth abstract thought if the brain alone is a manufacturer of them.

dhw: In a seizure, once the abnormal electrical impulses have stopped messing with the brain, the patient can think normally again. Yes or no? The clear conclusion must therefore be that just like the rest of the body, the thinking brain resumes normal service once the abnormality has been removed. But if the soul is responsible for abstract thinking, please tell me why, if a non-reasoning brain is sick, the soul is unable to reason.

Same point: a soul must work with the brain. Sick brain, sick thoughts. They are tied together in life.

dhw: […] it makes no sense to claim that when abnormal electrical impulses hit the brain, the soul becomes incapable of producing abstract reasoning and decisions!

DAVID: That is exactly not what he is claiming!!! See above. Egnor says the brain alone if stimulated NEVER invents an abstract thought on its own, soul not involved.

dhw" I know what he is claiming, and it doesn’t make sense. During a seizure the brain is incapacitated! In a grand mal it’s unconscious; in a petit mal it has varying degrees of consciousness. It is sick! Only when the sickness ends does it regain its normal consciousness and powers of reasoning. Once more: if the soul is the source of abstract reasoning, why is it unable to think abstractly just because the brain is sick?

Because in life the soul MUST use brain circuits to create any thought. In a grand mal seizure the brain is not incapacitated. All the muscles are thrashing about from electrical impulses hitting motor areas. But the conceptual area produces nothing, when it obviously could if it had anything it could produce.

DAVID: My opinion has been quite clear!!! The brain can't think by itself. A connected soul must do it using the brain's neuron networks. You are correct. With a connected soul consciousness appears and abstract thought can then be created.

dhw: You have not answered my question, but you have agreed over and over again that the dualist’s material brain can’t think...full stop. The thinking soul uses the brain (for information and implementation). So a dualist cannot talk of a conscious brain. That is the materialist’s view.

A dualist knows a brain can't think if unconscious. What is your point?


DAVID: Egnor's point once again is if the brain alone can produce abstractions by itself, they have never appeared in petit mal or grand mal seizures stimulating the brain to act.

dhw: Yes, brains act, and the question is what directs their actions. You’ve just said it is the self or soul that does the driving! But the self or soul should not be affected by abnormal electrical impulses that hit the brain!

It isn't. No concepts appear while the brain is driven by abnormal electrical impulses, and the soul is not acting. The impulses are not driven by the soul. In thought the impulses taht appear are driven by the soul.


DAVID: That is not Egnor's point. He is discussing an electrical impulse hitting abnormally in the brain, NO SOUL AT WORK or PRESENT. If the brain alone can produce abstractions, why don't they appear ever stimulated by electrical impulses?

dhw: You keep telling me my point is not Egnor’s point. I know. I am opposing Egnor, and so are you, though you don’t realize it. The brain is now abnormal because it has been incapacitated by abnormal electrical impulses! And so it can’t produce its normal abstractions. Why all of a sudden is the soul not at work or present? If the soul is the immaterial source of abstractions, then it should not be affected by the material damage to the material brain.

Again you are backward: The soul alone can drive thinking impulses. If those impulses are in a sick brain, only sick thoughts appear.


DAVID: Electrical impulses drive neurons to produce thought, only if the soul is driving the impulses. They never appear in seizures if ONLY the brain is involved in the activity of producing abstractions.

dhw: What does this mean? A seizure denotes an abnormality in the brain. The electrical impulses are abnormal. And so the thoughts are abnormal. Are you now saying that the soul produces abnormal electrical impulses and therefore brain seizures are caused by an abnormality in the soul?

Seizures are only produced by an abnormal electrical focus in the brain. The soul is not involved.

dhw: Once more: 1) if the soul is the producer of abstract thought, why doesn’t it carry on producing abstract thought when the immaterial brain is incapacitated? 2) Why is it that while the brain is sick, the thoughts are sick and non-abstract, but when the brain is “cured”, normal abstract thoughts return?

The same point you constantly ignore: in life the soul is required to use brain circuits to produce thought in my theory of dualism. In life it cannot think if the brain is sick enough to not allow thought. In NDE's the cortex is non-functional, that is transiently dead, and the soul is free to think on its own.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Sunday, December 06, 2020, 13:24 (1448 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: In a seizure, once the abnormal electrical impulses have stopped messing with the brain, the patient can think normally again. Yes or no? The clear conclusion must therefore be that just like the rest of the body, the thinking brain resumes normal service once the abnormality has been removed. But if the soul is responsible for abstract thinking, please tell me why, if a non-reasoning brain is sick, the soul is unable to reason.

DAVID: Same point: a soul must work with the brain. Sick brain, sick thoughts. They are tied together in life.

You are avoiding both my questions! Yes, the dualist’s soul and brain are tied together in life because the soul works with the brain by using it for information and for implementation of its thoughts, but it is the SOUL that does the thinking. Even under normal circumstances, if the brain is deceived by some trickery and sends false information to the soul (the lady was sawn in half but came out whole), the dualist’s soul will process the information sent by the brain, in order to test it. So 1) why is the soul incapable of thinking about the false information provided by the sick brain? 2) Why is it that when the brain is cured of its sickness, normal reasoning returns?

DAVID: Because in life the soul MUST use brain circuits to create any thought. In a grand mal seizure the brain is not incapacitated. All the muscles are thrashing about from electrical impulses hitting motor areas. But the conceptual area produces nothing, when it obviously could if it had anything it could produce.

In grand mal seizures, the patient is unconscious, but according to dualism, consciousness is a property of the soul, not the brain. The soul processes and thinks about the information provided by the brain, and the soul makes decisions, and the brain implements them through its control of the body. The loss of consciousness in a grand mal seizure only makes sense if the sick brain is the source of consciousness! When the brain returns to normal, consciousness returns!

dhw: […] a dualist cannot talk of a conscious brain. That is the materialist’s view.

DAVID: A dualist knows a brain can't think if unconscious. What is your point?

A dualist believes that a brain can’t think anyway, and consciousness is a property of the soul, not the brain! It is the dualist’s soul that does the thinking. So yet again, if the soul is the source of consciousness, why does it lose consciousness when the brain shuts down? The obvious answer is that it is NOT the source of consciousness, and hence is NOT the source of abstract thought and decision-making!

DAVID: No concepts appear while the brain is driven by abnormal electrical impulses, and the soul is not acting.

And that is the crux of the matter. If the immaterial soul does the thinking, why is it NOT thinking about the false information being delivered by the brain during a seizure? Why should thinking cease when the brain is sick?

DAVID: Seizures are only produced by an abnormal electrical focus in the brain. The soul is not involved.

You keep reinforcing the argument AGAINST dualism (which is fine, except that you think you are supporting dualism). If the conscious, thinking soul is not involved when an abnormal electrical focus takes place in the brain, why does it stop thinking?

DAVID: In NDE's the cortex is non-functional, that is transiently dead, and the soul is free to think on its own.

In a grand mal seizure, the patient is unconscious. The cortex is non-functional, that is transiently dead. So why can’t the soul think?

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Sunday, December 06, 2020, 20:25 (1448 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: The clear conclusion must therefore be that just like the rest of the body, the thinking brain resumes normal service once the abnormality has been removed. But if the soul is responsible for abstract thinking, please tell me why, if a non-reasoning brain is sick, the soul is unable to reason.

DAVID: Same point: a soul must work with the brain. Sick brain, sick thoughts. They are tied together in life.

dhw: Yes, the dualist’s soul and brain are tied together in life because the soul works with the brain by using it for information and for implementation of its thoughts, but it is the SOUL that does the thinking. Even under normal circumstances, if the brain is deceived by some trickery and sends false information to the soul (the lady was sawn in half but came out whole), the dualist’s soul will process the information sent by the brain, in order to test it.

The brain does not send anything to a separate soul. The soul is intimately tied to the brain circuits and receives info from brain memories or senses by extraction initiated by the soul. What you seem to neglect is the brain is entirely passive under the soul's directions. The soul extracts what it wants and thinks what it wants using the brain.

dhw: So 1) why is the soul incapable of thinking about the false information provided by the sick brain? 2) Why is it that when the brain is cured of its sickness, normal reasoning returns?

See explanation above. Sick brain traps the soul into sick thinking, because the soul MUST use the brain's sick circuits to think.


DAVID: Because in life the soul MUST use brain circuits to create any thought. In a grand mal seizure the brain is not incapacitated. All the muscles are thrashing about from electrical impulses hitting motor areas. But the conceptual area produces nothing, when it obviously could if it had anything it could produce.

dhw: In grand mal seizures, the patient is unconscious, but according to dualism, consciousness is a property of the soul, not the brain. The soul processes and thinks about the information provided by the brain, and the soul makes decisions, and the brain implements them through its control of the body. The loss of consciousness in a grand mal seizure only makes sense if the sick brain is the source of consciousness! When the brain returns to normal, consciousness returns!

View the brain as an instrument the soul must use. The abnormal electrical wave can make muscles move. It does hit the pre-frontal cortex, but no abstractions appear as the fit ends. If they had been created they should be sitting there ready to be recognized. Egnor knows all you have objected to in epileptic seizures, and is not bothered by that. Why? He has noted, during brain surgery, that stimulations of the abstraction creating areas have been performed and no ideas appear!!! Another aspect of his position presented before.


dhw: […] a dualist cannot talk of a conscious brain. That is the materialist’s view.

DAVID: A dualist knows a brain can't think if unconscious. What is your point?

dhw: A dualist believes that a brain can’t think anyway, and consciousness is a property of the soul, not the brain! It is the dualist’s soul that does the thinking. So yet again, if the soul is the source of consciousness, why does it lose consciousness when the brain shuts down? The obvious answer is that it is NOT the source of consciousness, and hence is NOT the source of abstract thought and decision-making!

In life the soul must have an active brain cortex to be conscious. They are completely tied together. One won't work without the other


DAVID: No concepts appear while the brain is driven by abnormal electrical impulses, and the soul is not acting.

dhw: And that is the crux of the matter. If the immaterial soul does the thinking, why is it NOT thinking about the false information being delivered by the brain during a seizure? Why should thinking cease when the brain is sick?

It is not separate from the brain circuits. It is absolutely tied to them and must use them to think. You are describing an untruth, the soul separate from the brain, when it can't think unless using the brain as an instrument of thought.


DAVID: Seizures are only produced by an abnormal electrical focus in the brain. The soul is not involved.

dhw: You keep reinforcing the argument AGAINST dualism (which is fine, except that you think you are supporting dualism). If the conscious, thinking soul is not involved when an abnormal electrical focus takes place in the brain, why does it stop thinking?

Because the brain is abnormal at that moment and the soul MUST use brain circuits to think.


DAVID: In NDE's the cortex is non-functional, that is transiently dead, and the soul is free to think on its own.

dhw: In a grand mal seizure, the patient is unconscious. The cortex is non-functional, that is transiently dead. So why can’t the soul think?

Because the brain is non-functional and the soul must use the brain circuits to think. Your form of dualism keeps the brain and the soul separate. They are intimately connected in life and therefore totally dependent upon each other for proper function. A living soul without a brain cannot think, and a living brain cannot think without a soul.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Monday, December 07, 2020, 12:01 (1447 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: […] a soul must work with the brain. Sick brain, sick thoughts. They are tied together in life.

dhw: Yes, the dualist’s soul and brain are tied together in life because the soul works with the brain by using it for information and for implementation of its thoughts, but it is the SOUL that does the thinking. Even under normal circumstances, if the brain is deceived by some trickery and sends false information to the soul (the lady was sawn in half but came out whole), the dualist’s soul will process the information sent by the brain, in order to test it.

DAVID: The brain does not send anything to a separate soul. The soul is intimately tied to the brain circuits and receives info from brain memories or senses by extraction initiated by the soul. What you seem to neglect is the brain is entirely passive under the soul's directions. The soul extracts what it wants and thinks what it wants using the brain.

That is precisely what I keep telling you, and have repeated above, though rather more precisely. The thinking soul uses the brain to acquire information, thinks about the information, and then directs the brain to implement its thoughts. You keep agreeing with me as if you were disagreeing with me!

dhw: So 1) why is the soul incapable of thinking about the false information provided by the sick brain? 2) Why is it that when the brain is cured of its sickness, normal reasoning returns?

DAVID: See explanation above. Sick brain traps the soul into sick thinking, because the soul MUST use the brain's sick circuits to think.

According to you and Egnor, the soul is incapable of "thinking" (i.e. abstract reasoning) during a seizure. Once more: The brain’s circuits provide the information which the soul thinks about. The thinking soul is supposed to be the immaterial partner of the brain, so why should the immaterial partner be unable to recognize the faulty information provided by the material partner? (See above) In seizures it doesn’t - its ability to reason abstractly has disappeared. And yet it appears again when the sick brain returns to normal.

DAVID: View the brain as an instrument the soul must use. The abnormal electrical wave can make muscles move. It does hit the pre-frontal cortex, but no abstractions appear as the fit ends. If they had been created they should be sitting there ready to be recognized.

What do you mean? The abnormality hits the front cortex and the patient can’t think, but when the abnormality has disappeared, normal thinking is resumed. So how could normal thoughts have been created if the thinking part of the brain had been put out of action? But if the soul does the thinking, then abstractions should never have ended. The soul is still linked to the brain and (petit mal) is receiving false information, and so when normality returns, the soul should be able to direct the brain to express all the thoughts it had been thinking during the seizure. But that doesn’t happen. The dualist’s soul ceased to think! You said earlier that the soul wasn’t involved. The blindingly obvious conclusion is that there is no soul, and the front cortex is the source of thought!

The rest of your post goes over the same points.

Free Will: continuity of self

by David Turell @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 15:13 (1447 days ago) @ dhw

Shown in this study:

https://mindmatters.ai/2020/12/do-we-really-remain-the-same-person-throughout-our-lives/

"DO WE REALLY REMAIN THE SAME PERSON THROUGHOUT OUR LIVES? Or is the continuity of our selves just an illusion?

"That’s an interesting question because most cells in our bodies will die and be replaced a number of times. Many brain cells die but they are not replaced. They are just gone. So what, if anything, remains the same?

***

"...a University of Madrid research team decided to study the problem. The researchers found that “the essence of our being remains largely stable over the years”:

“'In our study, we tried to answer the question of whether we are the same person throughout our lives. In conjunction with the previous literature, our results indicate that there is a component that remains stable while another part is more susceptible to change over time,” explained Miguel Rubianes, a researcher at the Department of Psychobiology and Behavioural Sciences Methodology at the UCM and the Centre for Human Evolution and Behaviour (UCM-ISCIII).

"The ‘continuity of the self’—the capacity for self-awareness and self-recognition— remains stable whereas other components such as physical aspects, physiological processes and even attitudes, beliefs and values are more liable to change.

"Even components such as personality traits tend to change slightly over the years, but “the sense of being oneself is preserved, improving our understanding of human nature,” according to Rubianes.

"The study published in Psychophysiology, used electroencephalography (EEG) to follow the brain patterns of 20 volunteers when images were shown of themselves and close friends during various stages of their lives. The researchers concluded that “the neural representation of oneself (i.e., “I am myself”) seems to be stable and also updated across time.”

"Incidentally, they found that it took the 20 volunteers’ brains around 250 milliseconds to recognize our own identities as distinct from that of others.

"So even though our bodies are almost entirely changed, both in appearance and composition from what they were decades ago, we feel the same and recognize images of ourselves almost instantly. That’s a good argument for the existence of a self that goes beyond mere matter". (my bold)

Comment: The 'self' is immaterial and is with us all during life. I view it the same as the soul.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 20:41 (1447 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: The brain does not send anything to a separate soul. The soul is intimately tied to the brain circuits and receives info from brain memories or senses by extraction initiated by the soul. What you seem to neglect is the brain is entirely passive under the soul's directions. The soul extracts what it wants and thinks what it wants using the brain.

dhw: That is precisely what I keep telling you, and have repeated above, though rather more precisely. The thinking soul uses the brain to acquire information, thinks about the information, and then directs the brain to implement its thoughts. You keep agreeing with me as if you were disagreeing with me!

What you always seem to slide over is how the soul thinks. It must use the brain circuits to formulate any thought during life with a useful normal brain. It is the bold I created above that is non-descript to me


dhw: So 1) why is the soul incapable of thinking about the false information provided by the sick brain? 2) Why is it that when the brain is cured of its sickness, normal reasoning returns?

DAVID: See explanation above. Sick brain traps the soul into sick thinking, because the soul MUST use the brain's sick circuits to think.

dhw: According to you and Egnor, the soul is incapable of "thinking" (i.e. abstract reasoning) during a seizure. Once more: The brain’s circuits provide the information which the soul thinks about. The thinking soul is supposed to be the immaterial partner of the brain, so why should the immaterial partner be unable to recognize the faulty information provided by the material partner? (See above) In seizures it doesn’t - its ability to reason abstractly has disappeared. And yet it appears again when the sick brain returns to normal.

Exactly, as above the soul can only think when using brain circuits that are functionally working.


DAVID: View the brain as an instrument the soul must use. The abnormal electrical wave can make muscles move. It does hit the pre-frontal cortex, but no abstractions appear as the fit ends. If they had been created they should be sitting there ready to be recognized.

dhw: What do you mean? The abnormality hits the front cortex and the patient can’t think, but when the abnormality has disappeared, normal thinking is resumed. So how could normal thoughts have been created if the thinking part of the brain had been put out of action?

The material brain according to materialists produces concepts by itself. Just as seizures move muscles, if the frontal cortex has a self-created thought available before a seizure, why doesn't it appear? Just like a memorized smell of ocean I've mentioned.

dhw: But if the soul does the thinking, then abstractions should never have ended. The soul is still linked to the brain and (petit mal) is receiving false information, and so when normality returns, the soul should be able to direct the brain to express all the thoughts it had been thinking during the seizure. But that doesn’t happen. The dualist’s soul ceased to think! You said earlier that the soul wasn’t involved. The blindingly obvious conclusion is that there is no soul, and the front cortex is the source of thought!

What a distortion of this discussion. Note my bold of your thought. The soul cannot prevent brain sickness, and is uninvolved in causing the transient or permanent brain damage, which present it from normal thought or any thought. During a seizure a sick wave of electricity washes over the brain and the soul is blocked from proper use of the neuronal webs, because the brain is temporarily out of commission. Sick brain equals sick thought or no thinking possible. It can drive muscles from the motor areas, it can resurrect memories of smells, but it can't produce an abstract thought the brain on its own created. The soul can't think during seizures. The sick brain won't let it happen. The schizophrenic can't help his weird distortions of thought. That soul is trapped with a bad brain machine. Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain. The soul is always normal, but must submit to the quality of the brain it MUST use. Even the level of IQ fits this approach. A true psychopath connot socialize properly because his brain makes him that way. From a human standpoint, we mustn't kill him for his serial murders, but institutionalize him for life. He can't help what he is.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Tuesday, December 08, 2020, 14:39 (1446 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: The thinking soul uses the brain to acquire information, thinks about the information, and then directs the brain to implement its thoughts. You keep agreeing with me as if you were disagreeing with me!

DAVID: What you always seem to slide over is how the soul thinks. It must use the brain circuits to formulate any thought during life with a useful normal brain. It is the bold I created above that is non-descript to me.

Round and round we go. Yes, the dualist’s brain gathers information and passes it on to the dualist’s soul. The brain doesn’t think. What is “non-descript” in the statement that the soul thinks about the information? The brain sees the bus and sees the person step out in front of the bus and passes the information on to the dualist’s soul, and the abstractly reasoning soul says: “Oh crikey, there’s going to be an accident.” Then it tells the brain to activate the voice mechanism and shout: “Look out!” But when the brain informs the soul that the magician sawed the woman in half, the abstractly reasoning soul says, “Nah, something weird going on here.” In a seizure (petit mal, because the grand mal loses consciousness altogether), the dualist’s brain sends sick information to the dualist’s soul. So why doesn’t the dualist’s soul say, “Nah, something weird going on here”? Instead, it says nothing. Why? And why, when the seizure is over, does the soul not remember ever having had such thoughts or even receiving such information?

DAVID: The material brain according to materialists produces concepts by itself.

Yes, all by itself it gathers information, processes and thinks about it, forms its concepts, decisions, conclusions, opinions etc., and then expresses them by activating its material means of expression.

DAVID: Just as seizures move muscles, if the frontal cortex has a self-created thought available before a seizure, why doesn't it appear? Just like a memorized smell of ocean I've mentioned.

Why “before a seizure”? The whole problem is what happens DURING a seizure. And the obvious conclusion is that if there is no “thought” during the brain’s period of sickness, but “thought” returns when the brain’s sickness is over, the brain must be the source of thought!

DAVID: The soul cannot prevent brain sickness, and is uninvolved in causing the transient or permanent brain damage, which present [prevent?] it from normal thought or any thought.

That is the crux of the matter. Why would the sick material brain prevent the immaterial soul from thinking? It is far more logical to assume that since the soul is “uninvolved” and the sickness prevents thought, it is the brain that is the source of thought. I’m going to skip all but one sentence plus the conclusion of your post now, because your conclusion makes the case for materialism as clear as it can possibly be.

DAVID: Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain. […] A true psychopath cannot socialize properly because his brain makes him that way. From a human standpoint, we mustn't kill him for his serial murders, but institutionalize him for life. He can't help what he is.

You’ve got it. It is the materialist’s brain that does the thinking, draws the conclusions, makes the decisions, and dictates the actions. The psychopath can’t help what he is. He has no free will. He is not responsible for the actions his brain makes him commit. “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain.” There is no place or function for a “soul” in this process, and hence seizures offer no grounds for believing there is such a thing.

Xxxxxxx

Free will: continuity of self

DAVID: Shown in this study:
https://mindmatters.ai/2020/12/do-we-really-remain-the-same-person-throughout-our-lives/

QUOTES: "DO WE REALLY REMAIN THE SAME PERSON THROUGHOUT OUR LIVES? Or is the continuity of our selves just an illusion?"

"So even though our bodies are almost entirely changed, both in appearance and composition from what they were decades ago, we feel the same and recognize images of ourselves almost instantly. That’s a good argument for the existence of a self that goes beyond mere matter". (DAVID’s bold)

DAVID: The 'self' is immaterial and is with us all during life. I view it the same as the soul.

First of all, this has nothing to do with free will. Secondly, there is nothing in these commonplace observations that provides any argument whatsoever for the existence of a soul! Everything in this universe is subject to change over time, whether it’s single cells, multicellular communities, stars, planets or galaxies, and everything in this universe dies. It may take seventy years, and it may take seven billion years. Organic life has feelings and forms of consciousness that inorganic objects (we assume) do not have, but to my knowledge, the ONLY evidence we have of a self that goes beyond mere matter is psychic experiences (which in my view are to be taken seriously - I remain agnostic). But even then, if the self does NOT live on after death, it is obvious that there is no such thing as an immaterial self that “goes beyond” mere matter. Matter then has to be the generator of life, consciousness and self.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 08, 2020, 22:56 (1446 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: The thinking soul uses the brain to acquire information, thinks about the information, and then directs the brain to implement its thoughts. You keep agreeing with me as if you were disagreeing with me!

DAVID: What you always seem to slide over is how the soul thinks. It must use the brain circuits to formulate any thought during life with a useful normal brain. It is the bold I created above that is non-descript to me.

dhw: Round and round we go. Yes, the dualist’s brain gathers information and passes it on to the dualist’s soul. The brain doesn’t think. What is “non-descript” in the statement that the soul thinks about the information?...In a seizure (petit mal, because the grand mal loses consciousness altogether), the dualist’s brain sends sick information to the dualist’s soul. So why doesn’t the dualist’s soul say, “Nah, something weird going on here”? Instead, it says nothing. Why? And why, when the seizure is over, does the soul not remember ever having had such thoughts or even receiving such information?

You don't realize it but you've answered yourself. In seizures the brain is sick and the soul can't do anything!!! When it is over the person/soul can realize what just happened. Seizures remove consciousness!! That is where the soul resides


DAVID: The material brain according to materialists produces concepts by itself.

dhw: Yes, all by itself it gathers information, processes and thinks about it, forms its concepts, decisions, conclusions, opinions etc., and then expresses them by activating its material means of expression.

DAVID: Just as seizures move muscles, if the frontal cortex has a self-created thought available before a seizure, why doesn't it appear? Just like a memorized smell of ocean I've mentioned.

dhw: Why “before a seizure”? The whole problem is what happens DURING a seizure. And the obvious conclusion is that if there is no “thought” during the brain’s period of sickness, but “thought” returns when the brain’s sickness is over, the brain must be the source of thought!

That is the point. If the brain thought formulation is revealed, if present just prior to seizure, why can't the brain formulate one during seizure? During seizure the brain is functional, with muscle movement, breathing, etc. Why isn't thought present? It never is. Consciousness is inoperative.

DAVID: Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain. […] A true psychopath cannot socialize properly because his brain makes him that way. From a human standpoint, we mustn't kill him for his serial murders, but institutionalize him for life. He can't help what he is.

dhw: You’ve got it. It is the materialist’s brain that does the thinking, draws the conclusions, makes the decisions, and dictates the actions. The psychopath can’t help what he is. He has no free will. He is not responsible for the actions his brain makes him commit. “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain.” There is no place or function for a “soul” in this process, and hence seizures offer no grounds for believing there is such a thing.

All backward as usual. A soul cannot be normal if the brain is abnormal. My immaterial self has an immaterial soul and an immaterial consciousness, and I myself, use my brain to think. I am trapped with it.


Xxxxxxx

Free will: continuity of self

DAVID: Shown in this study:
https://mindmatters.ai/2020/12/do-we-really-remain-the-same-person-throughout-our-lives/

QUOTES: "DO WE REALLY REMAIN THE SAME PERSON THROUGHOUT OUR LIVES? Or is the continuity of our selves just an illusion?"

"So even though our bodies are almost entirely changed, both in appearance and composition from what they were decades ago, we feel the same and recognize images of ourselves almost instantly. That’s a good argument for the existence of a self that goes beyond mere matter". (DAVID’s bold)

DAVID: The 'self' is immaterial and is with us all during life. I view it the same as the soul.

dhw: Organic life has feelings and forms of consciousness that inorganic objects (we assume) do not have, but to my knowledge, the ONLY evidence we have of a self that goes beyond mere matter is psychic experiences (which in my view are to be taken seriously - I remain agnostic). But even then, if the self does NOT live on after death, it is obvious that there is no such thing as an immaterial self that “goes beyond” mere matter. Matter then has to be the generator of life, consciousness and self.

All of this denies the evidence in NDE's. You are are same guy who had malaria and found a wife.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Wednesday, December 09, 2020, 14:02 (1445 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: In a seizure (petit mal, because the grand mal loses consciousness altogether), the dualist’s brain sends sick information to the dualist’s soul. So why doesn’t the dualist’s soul say, “Nah, something weird going on here”? Instead, it says nothing. Why? And why, when the seizure is over, does the soul not remember ever having had such thoughts or even receiving such information?

DAVID: You don't realize it but you've answered yourself. In seizures the brain is sick and the soul can't do anything!!! When it is over the person/soul can realize what just happened. Seizures remove consciousness!! That is where the soul resides.

But that is the whole point! In seizures the brain is sick and the person can’t “think”. Why can’t the person think if the soul is the IMMATERIAL, CONSCIOUS, THINKING part of himself/herself? Only the brain should be affected by the abnormal electric waves. But surprise, surprise: not until the seizure is over and the brain is normal again does normal thought return. Obvious conclusion: the brain is the source of thought and the seizure prevented the brain from thinking normally.


DAVID: If the brain thought formulation is revealed, if present just prior to seizure, why can't the brain formulate one during seizure?

Because the effect of the seizure is to incapacitate those parts of the brain that are the source of conscious thought. Hence the return of thought when the seizure ends.

DAVID: During seizure the brain is functional, with muscle movement, breathing, etc. Why isn't thought present? It never is. Consciousness is inoperative.

According to you, consciousness is a product of the soul, not the brain. Therefore it should not be affected by abnormal electrical charges hitting the brain. Muscle movement, breathing etc. continue because these are not dependent on that now incapacitated area of the brain which is responsible for conscious control, decision-making, the will etc.

DAVID: Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain. […] A true psychopath cannot socialize properly because his brain makes him that way. From a human standpoint, we mustn't kill him for his serial murders, but institutionalize him for life. He can't help what he is.

dhw: You’ve got it. It is the materialist’s brain that does the thinking, draws the conclusions, makes the decisions, and dictates the actions. The psychopath can’t help what he is. He has no free will. He is not responsible for the actions his brain makes him commit. “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain.” There is no place or function for a “soul” in this process, and hence seizures offer no grounds for believing there is such a thing.

DAVID: All backward as usual. A soul cannot be normal if the brain is abnormal. My immaterial self has an immaterial soul and an immaterial consciousness, and I myself, use my brain to think. I am trapped with it.

Your immaterial soul and consciousness ARE yourself (see below: “The ‘self’ is immaterial and is with us all during life. I view it the same as the soul.”) Thinking, according to dualists, does not “come from” the brain! But if “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, as you say, then abnormal thinking comes from an abnormal brain, and that is why we cannot “blame” the psychopath. He can’t help having an abnormally thinking brain. If the court thought he had a soul with a free will that controlled his behaviour, they would in some of your states happily send him off to be killed. Seizures mean no free will, and a soul has no part to play, because it is the brain that does the thinking.

xxxxx

Free will: continuity of self

QUOTE: "So even though our bodies are almost entirely changed, both in appearance and composition from what they were decades ago, we feel the same and recognize images of ourselves almost instantly. That’s a good argument for the existence of a self that goes beyond mere matter". (DAVID’s bold)

DAVID: The 'self' is immaterial and is with us all during life. I view it the same as the soul.

dhw: […] Organic life has feelings and forms of consciousness that inorganic objects (we assume) do not have, but to my knowledge, the ONLY evidence we have of a self that goes beyond mere matter is psychic experiences (which in my view are to be taken seriously bb- I remain agnostic). But even then, if the self does NOT live on after death, it is obvious that there is no such thing as an immaterial self that “goes beyond” mere matter. Matter then has to be the generator of life, consciousness and self.

DAVID: All of this denies the evidence in NDE's. You are are same guy who had malaria and found a wife.

I have specifically stated that I am NOT denying the evidence of psychic experiences (now bolded), among which I would include NDEs. I have no idea what my wife has to do with it, but I am pleased to see that you have not made any attempt to defend the hollow argument offered by the article.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 09, 2020, 15:52 (1445 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: You don't realize it but you've answered yourself. In seizures the brain is sick and the soul can't do anything!!! When it is over the person/soul can realize what just happened. Seizures remove consciousness!! That is where the soul resides.

dhw: But that is the whole point! In seizures the brain is sick and the person can’t “think”. Why can’t the person think if the soul is the IMMATERIAL, CONSCIOUS, THINKING part of himself/herself?

Same starting point from a materialistic viewpoint. I'm strictly using dualism in which the soul can only think if the brain is working!!! Both are required>


DAVID: During seizure the brain is functional, with muscle movement, breathing, etc. Why isn't thought present? It never is. Consciousness is inoperative.

dhw: According to you, consciousness is a product of the soul, not the brain.

No, both are required. The soul when totally engaged with the functioning brain makes consciousness

DAVID: All backward as usual. A soul cannot be normal if the brain is abnormal. My immaterial self has an immaterial soul and an immaterial consciousness, and I myself, use my brain to think. I am trapped with it.

dhw: Thinking, according to dualists, does not “come from” the brain!

Very limited definition of dualism. The soul is required to use brain circuits to think.

But if “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, as you say, then abnormal thinking comes from an abnormal brain, and that is why we cannot “blame” the psychopath. Seizures mean no free will, and a soul has no part to play, because it is the brain that does the thinking.

Seizures mean no consciousness, a brain state required for producing thought by the soul, and briefly no free will.


xxxxx

Free will: continuity of self

QUOTE: "So even though our bodies are almost entirely changed, both in appearance and composition from what they were decades ago, we feel the same and recognize images of ourselves almost instantly. That’s a good argument for the existence of a self that goes beyond mere matter". (DAVID’s bold)

DAVID: The 'self' is immaterial and is with us all during life. I view it the same as the soul.

dhw: […] Organic life has feelings and forms of consciousness that inorganic objects (we assume) do not have, but to my knowledge, the ONLY evidence we have of a self that goes beyond mere matter is psychic experiences (which in my view are to be taken seriously bb- I remain agnostic). But even then, if the self does NOT live on after death, it is obvious that there is no such thing as an immaterial self that “goes beyond” mere matter. Matter then has to be the generator of life, consciousness and self.

DAVID: All of this denies the evidence in NDE's. You are are same guy who had malaria and found a wife.

dhw: I have specifically stated that I am NOT denying the evidence of psychic experiences (now bolded), among which I would include NDEs. I have no idea what my wife has to do with it, but I am pleased to see that you have not made any attempt to defend the hollow argument offered by the article.

I have bolded the 'if' thought to make my point more clear. NDE's give direct evidence the soul does 'live on'.

Free Will, and consciousness: Egnor's latest

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 10, 2020, 01:32 (1445 days ago) @ David Turell

More on Egnor's approach:

https://mindmatters.ai/2020/12/why-consciousness-shows-that-materialism-is-false/

"I also believe that the mind refutes materialism in a rather straightforward way—and in much the same way that evidence of intelligent design in biology refutes materialism.

"But first, we need to define materialism. There are several varieties but all share the belief that the matter of which reality is composed is stuff extended in space, that immaterial substances don’t exist, and that a comprehensive explanation of reality can be given by the methods of the physical sciences.

"Next, we need to define the “mind,” which is my preferred term for consciousness. I don’t like the word “consciousness” because I find it imprecise and because it emphasizes alertness over other, more fundamental, mental attributes. For example, dreams are mental acts, even though we are unconscious during sleep.

***

"Every mental phenomenon is characterized by what the Scholastics of the Middle Ages called the intentional (or mental) inexistence of an object, and what we might call, though not wholly unambiguously, reference to a content, direction towards an object (which is not to be understood here as meaning a thing), or immanent objectivity.

***

"In other words, intentionality is the “aboutness” of thought. Every thought we have is about something—about the weather, about a car, about lunch, etc. On the contrary, no physical thing is inherently about anything.

***

"The salient quality of the mind, which matter does not have, is that the mind is about something other than itself. In other words, the mind “points” to something else—to an object, a person, or a concept in a way that matter doesn’t.

"So the mind cannot arise wholly from matter because intentionality is not a property of matter. The existence of the mind refutes materialism because the mind is characterized by a power that matter does not have. Intentionality, like design, is a shoal on which materialism wrecks.

***

"In philosophy of mind, intentionality is the power of the mind to point to something other than itself. It is a goal-directed power of thought. In nature, we see the same goal-directedness, the same pointing to something other than itself, a quality that which metaphysicians call teleology. Teleology is a hallmark of change in nature and it is particularly evident in biology.

"Molecular machines in living things—enzymes in metabolic pathways, DNA replication and gene expression, intracellular organelles, whole organs and whole organisms—all are teleological, in the sense that they act in goal-directed ways. Biology is saturated with goals—energy production, protein synthesis, locomotion, reproduction, among countless examples. Each process in a living thing is teleological, and the teleology—the purpose—cannot be denied. You can’t understand the heart or the eye or the ribosome unless you know their purposes—to see or to pump blood or to make protein.

"Can matter, by itself, have purposes and goals? Thomas Aquinas said no. In his Fifth Way, he demonstrated that goal-directed behavior in matter presupposes a Mind that directs the process to its goal. Of course, Aquinas pointed out that this Mind is what all men call God.

"Intentionality in the mind and teleology in biology are both manifestations of the same fundamental goal-directedness in nature. And matter alone, without mind (or Mind), can produce neither consciousness nor life.

"Both mind (intentionality) and design (teleology) refute materialism, and for fundamentally the same reason. Minds and life manifest goals, which matter alone lacks."

Comment: Does an 'intelligent cell' have a mind? Certainly not, but it can contain intelligent instructions from a mind providing the appearance of teleology in living actions.. Only a mind can consider future needs and design for them. This consideration solves Gould's famous and well-recognized problem with fossil gaps.

Free Will, and consciousness: Egnor's latest

by dhw, Thursday, December 10, 2020, 12:26 (1444 days ago) @ David Turell

EGNOR: "Both mind (intentionality) and design (teleology) refute materialism, and for fundamentally the same reason. Minds and life manifest goals, which matter alone lacks."

Of course intentions and purposes and thoughts and opinions and decisions and consciousness itself are not material. In view of your comment under memory (see below), we should include that too. The whole question is what is the SOURCE of all these? Nobody knows. The only thing we do know is that we ARE matter! It is just as possible (or if you prefer it, unbelievable) that the SOURCE is matter, by way of an unknown process, as it is that the SOURCE is an unknown immaterial something or the other that simply exists without a source of its own. Giving it a name (e.g. “soul”) is no more a guarantee of existence than the word “God”. But please remember that on the subject of dualism v materialism, I am just as agnostic as I am on the subject of God. All I can do is test the different arguments for their feasibility. It seems to me that Egnor has merely stated the obvious without facing up to the problem.

DAVID: Does an 'intelligent cell' have a mind? Certainly not, but it can contain intelligent instructions from a mind providing the appearance of teleology in living actions.. Only a mind can consider future needs and design for them. This consideration solves Gould's famous and well-recognized problem with fossil gaps.

Why “certainly not”? Even you have admitted that the odds are 50/50. But not a mind like ours. Reread Shapiro’s quote on the other thread. And please stop pretending that evolution involves gazing into a crystal ball. The theory I have proposed involves REACTING to conditions, not forecasting them. The problem of fossil gaps would be solved if there were a continuous fossil record of every creature that ever lived. Failing that, the intelligence of cells is just as good a solution as a divine 3.8-billion-year old computer programme for every undabbled life form, econiche, natural wonder etc. in the history of life, with every single one mysteriously being “part of the goal of evolving humans” while 99% of them have no connection with humans.

xxxxxx

Memory Formation
DAVID: This is a look the cellular genetic and molecular level of encoding memories. Note the memory is an abstraction of an event. The brain has recorded it but none of this research explains how consciousness can seek and find it in recall. The soul to brain link is there but never seen. In my view of dualism discussions and debates, this fact must be emphasized: invisibly tied together.

Yes, the authors do the same as you often do when discussing cellular intelligence: you and they focus on the material processes and ignore the intelligence that directs those processes. Your point here is covered by the discussion above and by the first post on Egnor’s theories.

Free Will, and consciousness: Egnor's latest

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 10, 2020, 20:00 (1444 days ago) @ dhw

EGNOR: "Both mind (intentionality) and design (teleology) refute materialism, and for fundamentally the same reason. Minds and life manifest goals, which matter alone lacks."

dhw: Of course intentions and purposes and thoughts and opinions and decisions and consciousness itself are not material. In view of your comment under memory (see below), we should include that too. The whole question is what is the SOURCE of all these? Nobody knows. The only thing we do know is that we ARE matter! It is just as possible (or if you prefer it, unbelievable) that the SOURCE is matter, by way of an unknown process, as it is that the SOURCE is an unknown immaterial something or the other that simply exists without a source of its own. Giving it a name (e.g. “soul”) is no more a guarantee of existence than the word “God”. But please remember that on the subject of dualism v materialism, I am just as agnostic as I am on the subject of God. All I can do is test the different arguments for their feasibility. It seems to me that Egnor has merely stated the obvious without facing up to the problem.

Which means both of us and the rest of the world have no knowledge of how immaterial consciousness appears.>

DAVID: Does an 'intelligent cell' have a mind? Certainly not, but it can contain intelligent instructions from a mind providing the appearance of teleology in living actions.. Only a mind can consider future needs and design for them. This consideration solves Gould's famous and well-recognized problem with fossil gaps.

dhw: Why “certainly not”? Even you have admitted that the odds are 50/50. But not a mind like ours. Reread Shapiro’s quote on the other thread. And please stop pretending that evolution involves gazing into a crystal ball. The theory I have proposed involves REACTING to conditions, not forecasting them. The problem of fossil gaps would be solved if there were a continuous fossil record of every creature that ever lived.

The crystal ball is required for animals to jump into aquatic life. They are my strongest argument for design being required


xxxxxx

Memory Formation
DAVID: This is a look at the cellular genetic and molecular level of encoding memories. Note the memory is an abstraction of an event. The brain has recorded it but none of this research explains how consciousness can seek and find it in recall. The soul to brain link is there but never seen. In my view of dualism discussions and debates, this fact must be emphasized: invisibly tied together.

dhw: Yes, the authors do the same as you often do when discussing cellular intelligence: you and they focus on the material processes and ignore the intelligence that directs those processes. Your point here is covered by the discussion above and by the first post on Egnor’s theories.

The 'intelligence' is simply implanted intelligent instructions that run the cells.

Free Will, and consciousness: Egnor's latest

by dhw, Friday, December 11, 2020, 09:17 (1443 days ago) @ David Turell

EGNOR: "Both mind (intentionality) and design (teleology) refute materialism, and for fundamentally the same reason. Minds and life manifest goals, which matter alone lacks."

dhw: Of course intentions and purposes and thoughts and opinions and decisions and consciousness itself are not material. In view of your comment under memory (see below), we should include that too. The whole question is what is the SOURCE of all these? Nobody knows. The only thing we do know is that we ARE matter! It is just as possible (or if you prefer it, unbelievable) that the SOURCE is matter, by way of an unknown process, as it is that the SOURCE is an unknown immaterial something or the other that simply exists without a source of its own. Giving it a name (e.g. “soul”) is no more a guarantee of existence than the word “God”. But please remember that on the subject of dualism v materialism, I am just as agnostic as I am on the subject of God. All I can do is test the different arguments for their feasibility. It seems to me that Egnor has merely stated the obvious without facing up to the problem.

DAVID: Which means both of us and the rest of the world have no knowledge of how immaterial consciousness appears.

Obviously. And Egnor’s argument ignores the problem by simply focusing on the fact that consciousness, thought, opinions etc. are immaterial, which we all know anyway.

DAVID: Does an 'intelligent cell' have a mind? Certainly not, but it can contain intelligent instructions from a mind providing the appearance of teleology in living actions.. Only a mind can consider future needs and design for them. This consideration solves Gould's famous and well-recognized problem with fossil gaps.

dhw: Why “certainly not”? Even you have admitted that the odds are 50/50. But not a mind like ours. Reread Shapiro’s quote on the other thread. And please stop pretending that evolution involves gazing into a crystal ball. The theory I have proposed involves REACTING to conditions, not forecasting them. The problem of fossil gaps would be solved if there were a continuous fossil record of every creature that ever lived.

DAVID: The crystal ball is required for animals to jump into aquatic life. They are my strongest argument for design being required.

I would suggest this is your weakest argument – complexity being your strongest. If an animal sees that there is more food in the water than there is on the land, and it has a better chance of surviving in the water, then it will enter the water. The necessary adaptations will then follow. I’m afraid I find it quite absurd to picture an animal happily munching its supper on the seashore, dozing off, and then finding that its legs have turned into fins, and a voice says “Go thou into the water!”

xxxxxx

Memory Formation

DAVID: This is a look at the cellular genetic and molecular level of encoding memories. Note the memory is an abstraction of an event. The brain has recorded it but none of this research explains how consciousness can seek and find it in recall. The soul to brain link is there but never seen. In my view of dualism discussions and debates, this fact must be emphasized: invisibly tied together.

dhw: Yes, the authors do the same as you often do when discussing cellular intelligence: you and they focus on the material processes and ignore the intelligence that directs those processes. Your point here is covered by the discussion above and by the first post on Egnor’s theories.

DAVID: The 'intelligence' is simply implanted intelligent instructions that run the cells.

Your usual statement of opinion as if it were fact.

Free Will, and consciousness: Egnor's latest

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 12, 2020, 00:33 (1443 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Does an 'intelligent cell' have a mind? Certainly not, but it can contain intelligent instructions from a mind providing the appearance of teleology in living actions.. Only a mind can consider future needs and design for them. This consideration solves Gould's famous and well-recognized problem with fossil gaps.

dhw: Why “certainly not”? Even you have admitted that the odds are 50/50. But not a mind like ours. Reread Shapiro’s quote on the other thread. And please stop pretending that evolution involves gazing into a crystal ball. The theory I have proposed involves REACTING to conditions, not forecasting them. The problem of fossil gaps would be solved if there were a continuous fossil record of every creature that ever lived.

DAVID: The crystal ball is required for animals to jump into aquatic life. They are my strongest argument for design being required.

dhw: I would suggest this is your weakest argument – complexity being your strongest. If an animal sees that there is more food in the water than there is on the land, and it has a better chance of surviving in the water, then it will enter the water. The necessary adaptations will then follow.

The problem unsolved is how does that happen. I'll stick with God designing.


xxxxxx

Memory Formation

DAVID: This is a look at the cellular genetic and molecular level of encoding memories. Note the memory is an abstraction of an event. The brain has recorded it but none of this research explains how consciousness can seek and find it in recall. The soul to brain link is there but never seen. In my view of dualism discussions and debates, this fact must be emphasized: invisibly tied together.

dhw: Yes, the authors do the same as you often do when discussing cellular intelligence: you and they focus on the material processes and ignore the intelligence that directs those processes. Your point here is covered by the discussion above and by the first post on Egnor’s theories.

DAVID: The 'intelligence' is simply implanted intelligent instructions that run the cells.

dhw: Your usual statement of opinion as if it were fact.

Your view isn't fact either. We still look at the cells from the outside

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Thursday, December 10, 2020, 12:20 (1444 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: You don't realize it but you've answered yourself. In seizures the brain is sick and the soul can't do anything!!! When it is over the person/soul can realize what just happened. Seizures remove consciousness!! That is where the soul resides.

dhw: But that is the whole point! In seizures the brain is sick and the person can’t “think”. Why can’t the person think if the soul is the IMMATERIAL, CONSCIOUS, THINKING part of himself/herself? And:
dhw: According to you, consciousness is a product of the soul, not the brain. And:
dhw: Thinking, according to dualists, does not “come from” the brain!

DAVID: Same starting point from a materialistic viewpoint. I'm strictly using dualism in which the soul can only think if the brain is working!!! Both are required. And:
No, both are required. The soul when totally engaged with the functioning brain makes consciousness. And:
Very limited definition of dualism. The soul is required to use brain circuits to think.

This is extremely confusing. Previously I thought you had agreed that it is the dualist’s immaterial soul that does the thinking, and it uses the material brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Do you now disagree with this “division of labour”? Please answer. Of course it makes nonsense of NDEs (see below), which clearly argue for the soul alone being the conscious, thinking part of the self, but perhaps we should just stick to the relationship between soul and brain during life. Let’s take a concrete example. The brain receives information that a man is about to step in front of a bus. What happens next? I assumed that the brain passed the information to the soul, which put two and two together (information-processing), reasoned that the man was in danger, and decided to instruct the brain to instruct the voice to yell; “Look out!” I can understand the argument that the soul cannot think about the man and the bus unless it knows there is a man and a bus, but that does not mean that the soul is NOT the thinking, reasoning, conscious, decision-making part of the self, while the brain is the provider of information and the implementer of thoughts. Using this example, perhaps you could apply and explain your own concept of the relationship between brain and soul.

dhw: But if “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, as you say, then abnormal thinking comes from an abnormal brain, and that is why we cannot “blame” the psychopath. Seizures mean no free will, and a soul has no part to play, because it is the brain that does the thinking.

DAVID: Seizures mean no consciousness, a brain state required for producing thought by the soul, and briefly no free will.

Again, you are assuming that the brain has to be conscious if the soul is to be conscious. But if the brain is conscious, why does it need a soul to do the thinking? It could hardly be more straightforward: 1) seizure affects thinking brain and stops thought. 2) Seizure ends, brain starts thinking again. As regards free will, the subject of this thread, let me cite as evidence the verdict of Judge David Turell presiding over the trial of a psychopath:
Judge Turell: “A true psychopath cannot socialize properly because his brain makes him that way. From a human standpoint, we mustn’t kill him for his serial murders, but institutionalize him for life. He can’t help what he is.”

xxxxx

Free will: continuity of self
QUOTE: "So even though our bodies are almost entirely changed, both in appearance and composition from what they were decades ago, we feel the same and recognize images of ourselves almost instantly. That’s a good argument for the existence of a self that goes beyond mere matter". (DAVID’s bold)

I could not see how this could possibly be used as an argument for the existence of a soul, and pointed out that for me, psychic experiences (which of course include NDEs) were the only evidence we had. You thought I had ignored NDEs. I hadn’t. Simply an oversight on your part.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 10, 2020, 19:32 (1444 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Thursday, December 10, 2020, 20:04

dhw: But that is the whole point! In seizures the brain is sick and the person can’t “think”. Why can’t the person think if the soul is the IMMATERIAL, CONSCIOUS, THINKING part of himself/herself? And:
dhw: According to you, consciousness is a product of the soul, not the brain. And:
dhw: Thinking, according to dualists, does not “come from” the brain!

DAVID: Same starting point from a materialistic viewpoint. I'm strictly using dualism in which the soul can only think if the brain is working!!! Both are required. And:
No, both are required. The soul when totally engaged with the functioning brain makes consciousness. And:
Very limited definition of dualism. The soul is required to use brain circuits to think.

dhw: This is extremely confusing. Previously I thought you had agreed that it is the dualist’s immaterial soul that does the thinking, and it uses the material brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Do you now disagree with this “division of labour”? Please answer.

This is where you have always been confused about my theory of dualism. The immaterial soul does initiate and create thought, but only with a functional brain during life using the neuronal networks to actually create the thought. Thus a sick brain can only produce sick thoughts which the soul cannot prevent from appearing in sick form. Only in death or loss of function transiently (NDE's) is the soul actually separate and thinks on its own, brain not involved. Your phraseology above has always troubled me as not realizing what I think about the required brain soul connection for thought creation. Your preconceived 'dualism' has never recognized my objections to your restatements. If I initiate a thought my brain thinks and I recognize the thought as it appears. I am my soul so the relationship is quite clear to me.


dhw: But if “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, as you say, then abnormal thinking comes from an abnormal brain, and that is why we cannot “blame” the psychopath. Seizures mean no free will, and a soul has no part to play, because it is the brain that does the thinking.

DAVID: Seizures mean no consciousness, a brain state required for producing thought by the soul, and briefly no free will.

dhw: Again, you are assuming that the brain has to be conscious if the soul is to be conscious. But if the brain is conscious, why does it need a soul to do the thinking? It could hardly be more straightforward: 1) seizure affects thinking brain and stops thought.

See above to end your confusion about my form of dualism which I think is also Egnor's.


xxxxx

Free will: continuity of self
QUOTE: "So even though our bodies are almost entirely changed, both in appearance and composition from what they were decades ago, we feel the same and recognize images of ourselves almost instantly. That’s a good argument for the existence of a self that goes beyond mere matter". (DAVID’s bold)

dhw: I could not see how this could possibly be used as an argument for the existence of a soul, and pointed out that for me, psychic experiences (which of course include NDEs) were the only evidence we had. You thought I had ignored NDEs. I hadn’t. Simply an oversight on your part.

OK

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 10, 2020, 20:06 (1444 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: But that is the whole point! In seizures the brain is sick and the person can’t “think”. Why can’t the person think if the soul is the IMMATERIAL, CONSCIOUS, THINKING part of himself/herself? And:
dhw: According to you, consciousness is a product of the soul, not the brain. And:
dhw: Thinking, according to dualists, does not “come from” the brain!

DAVID: Same starting point from a materialistic viewpoint. I'm strictly using dualism in which the soul can only think if the brain is working!!! Both are required. And:
No, both are required. The soul when totally engaged with the functioning brain makes consciousness. And:
Very limited definition of dualism. The soul is required to use brain circuits to think.

dhw: This is extremely confusing. Previously I thought you had agreed that it is the dualist’s immaterial soul that does the thinking, and it uses the material brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Do you now disagree with this “division of labour”? Please answer.


This is where you have always been confused about my theory of dualism. The immaterial soul does initiate and create thought, but only with a functional brain during life using the neuronal networks to actually create the thought. Thus a sick brain can only produce sick thoughts which the soul cannot prevent from appearing in sick form. Only in death or loss of function transiently (NDE's) is the soul actually separate and thinks on its own, brain not involved. Your phraseology above has always troubled me as not realizing what I think about the required brain soul connection for thought creation. Your preconceived 'dualism' has never recognized my objections to your restatements. If I initiate a thought my brain thinks and I recognize the thought as it appears. I am my soul so the relationship is quite clear to me. I, and my soul, use and drive the brain to make the thought.


dhw: But if “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, as you say, then abnormal thinking comes from an abnormal brain, and that is why we cannot “blame” the psychopath. Seizures mean no free will, and a soul has no part to play, because it is the brain that does the thinking.

DAVID: Seizures mean no consciousness, a brain state required for producing thought by the soul, and briefly no free will.

dhw: Again, you are assuming that the brain has to be conscious if the soul is to be conscious. But if the brain is conscious, why does it need a soul to do the thinking? It could hardly be more straightforward: 1) seizure affects thinking brain and stops thought.


See above to end your confusion about my form of dualism which I think is also Egnor's.


xxxxx

Free will: continuity of self
QUOTE: "So even though our bodies are almost entirely changed, both in appearance and composition from what they were decades ago, we feel the same and recognize images of ourselves almost instantly. That’s a good argument for the existence of a self that goes beyond mere matter". (DAVID’s bold)

dhw: I could not see how this could possibly be used as an argument for the existence of a soul, and pointed out that for me, psychic experiences (which of course include NDEs) were the only evidence we had. You thought I had ignored NDEs. I hadn’t. Simply an oversight on your part.


OK

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Friday, December 11, 2020, 09:12 (1443 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: But that is the whole point! In seizures the brain is sick and the person can’t “think”. Why can’t the person think if the soul is the IMMATERIAL, CONSCIOUS, THINKING part of himself/herself? And:
dhw: According to you, consciousness is a product of the soul, not the brain. And:
dhw: Thinking, according to dualists, does not “come from” the brain!

DAVID: Same starting point from a materialistic viewpoint. I'm strictly using dualism in which the soul can only think if the brain is working!!! Both are required. And:
No, both are required. The soul when totally engaged with the functioning brain makes consciousness. And:
Very limited definition of dualism. The soul is required to use brain circuits to think.

dhw: This is extremely confusing. Previously I thought you had agreed that it is the dualist’s immaterial soul that does the thinking, and it uses the material brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Do you now disagree with this “division of labour”? Please answer.

DAVID: This is where you have always been confused about my theory of dualism. The immaterial soul does initiate and create thought, but only with a functional brain during life using the neuronal networks to actually create the thought.

This is where you have always muddied the waters by glossing over what the soul uses the brain for. You have agreed in the past that it “uses” the brain to gather information and then to give material expression to its thoughts. What else does it use the brain for? Please answer.

DAVID: Thus a sick brain can only produce sick thoughts which the soul cannot prevent from appearing in sick form.

But the dualist’s sick brain does not produce thoughts. It produces the information that the dualist’s soul thinks about. It is the dualist’s soul that “forms” the thought. Yes or no? I gave an example of false information in normal circumstances: the magician saws the woman in half. The soul, as the source of abstract reasoning, challenges the false information. By the same token, it should challenge any false information sent to it by the sick brain.

DAVID: Only in death or loss of function transiently (NDE's) is the soul actually separate and thinks on its own, brain not involved.

I acknowledge NDEs and other psychic experiences as possible evidence for the existence of a soul. But this doesn’t explain how your concept of dualism works in life.

DAVID: […] If I initiate a thought my brain thinks and I recognize the thought as it appears. I am my soul so the relationship is quite clear to me.

If you are your “soul”, you appear to be saying your soul initiates thought, your brain thinks, and your soul recognizes the brain’s thought as it appears. I have no idea what this means. Here is my proposed version of the dualist process: the brain provides information to the soul; the soul formulates thoughts/decisions (we mustn’t forget “free will”) etc. about the information; the soul directs the brain to give material expression to its thoughts/decisions etc. The process could hardly be clearer, so why do you now reject it?

You gave us an extreme case of permanent sickness: the psychopath commits murder. Your verdict: “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”. The sick psychopath “cannot socialize because his brain makes him that way. […] He can’t help what he is.” But if the brain makes him what he is, and normal thinking comes from a normal brain, then it is the brain that makes all of us what we are. So what is the function of a soul? You could hardly make a clearer case for materialism, or for determinism. (And of course, you may be right.)

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 12, 2020, 00:27 (1443 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: This is extremely confusing. Previously I thought you had agreed that it is the dualist’s immaterial soul that does the thinking, and it uses the material brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Do you now disagree with this “division of labour”? Please answer.

There is no division!!! See below.

DAVID: This is where you have always been confused about my theory of dualism. The immaterial soul does initiate and create thought, but only with a functional brain during life using the neuronal networks to actually create the thought.

dhw: This is where you have always muddied the waters by glossing over what the soul uses the brain for. You have agreed in the past that it “uses” the brain to gather information and then to give material expression to its thoughts. What else does it use the brain for? Please answer.

I have over and over. I/soul/self can only initiate a thought by activating the brain's networks and using those specific networks exclusively to create the thought and then express it. Your previous impressions about dualism have been locked into not understanding my descriptions, with the soul in your version, at some separate distance dictating to the brain. The soul must use the brain circuits to form thought.


DAVID: Thus a sick brain can only produce sick thoughts which the soul cannot prevent from appearing in sick form.

dhw: But the dualist’s sick brain does not produce thoughts. It produces the information that the dualist’s soul thinks about. It is the dualist’s soul that “forms” the thought. Yes or no?

No. Only by using the brain as I describe above. Egnor and I have the same view.

DAVID: […] If I initiate a thought my brain thinks and I recognize the thought as it appears. I am my soul so the relationship is quite clear to me.

dhw: You gave us an extreme case of permanent sickness: the psychopath commits murder. Your verdict: “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”. The sick psychopath “cannot socialize because his brain makes him that way. […] He can’t help what he is.” But if the brain makes him what he is, and normal thinking comes from a normal brain, then it is the brain that makes all of us what we are. So what is the function of a soul? You could hardly make a clearer case for materialism, or for determinism. (And of course, you may be right.)

Still total confusion. Absorb the above explanation without reverting to your previous teaching.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Saturday, December 12, 2020, 09:07 (1442 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: This is extremely confusing. Previously I thought you had agreed that it is the dualist’s immaterial soul that does the thinking, and it uses the material brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Do you now disagree with this “division of labour”? Please answer.

DAVID: There is no division!!! See below.

Not “division” but “division of labour”. (See below) And why don't you answer?

DAVID: This is where you have always been confused about my theory of dualism. The immaterial soul does initiate and create thought, but only with a functional brain during life using the neuronal networks to actually create the thought.

dhw: This is where you have always muddied the waters by glossing over what the soul uses the brain for. You have agreed in the past that it “uses” the brain to gather information and then to give material expression to its thoughts. What else does it use the brain for? Please answer.

DAVID: I have over and over. I/soul/self can only initiate a thought by activating the brain's networks and using those specific networks exclusively to create the thought and then express it.

You continue to dodge my question. Over and over you say the soul uses the brain. There is no disagreement between us, but you continually gloss over WHAT IT USES THE BRAIN FOR! It uses the brain to gather the information which it then thinks about, draws its conclusions, and then uses the brain to express the thought. There is nothing in your answer that contradicts what I have written here. You simply couch it in less precise terms.

DAVID: Your previous impressions about dualism have been locked into not understanding my descriptions, with the soul in your version, at some separate distance dictating to the brain. The soul must use the brain circuits to form thought.

What on earth does “at some separate distance” mean? My interpretation of dualism is that just as different compartments of the brain are believed to be responsible for imparting different sets of information, the soul is the immaterial self that resides within the brain. And yet again, of course the soul uses the brain: for information and implementation.

DAVID: Thus a sick brain can only produce sick thoughts which the soul cannot prevent from appearing in sick form.

dhw: But the dualist’s sick brain does not produce thoughts. It produces the information that the dualist’s soul thinks about. It is the dualist’s soul that “forms” the thought. Yes or no?

DAVID: No. Only by using the brain as I describe above. Egnor and I have the same view.

This is the strangest “no”. What does it use the brain for? See above, and see post after post. You wrote “I am my soul”. Is the dualist’s soul the thinking, decision-making part of the self or isn’t it?

dhw: You gave us an extreme case of permanent sickness: the psychopath commits murder. Your verdict: “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”. The sick psychopath “cannot socialize because his brain makes him that way. […] He can’t help what he is.” But if the brain makes him what he is, and normal thinking comes from a normal brain, then it is the brain that makes all of us what we are. So what is the function of a soul? You could hardly make a clearer case for materialism, or for determinism. (And of course, you may be right.)

DAVID: Still total confusion. Absorb the above explanation without reverting to your previous teaching.

Without glossing over how the soul uses the brain, please explain how “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, and “his brain makes him that way”, and “he can’t help what he is” all comes to mean that there is an immaterial soul which has free will.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 12, 2020, 22:00 (1442 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I have over and over. I/soul/self can only initiate a thought by activating the brain's networks and using those specific networks exclusively to create the thought and then express it.

dhw: You continue to dodge my question. Over and over you say the soul uses the brain. There is no disagreement between us, but you continually gloss over WHAT IT USES THE BRAIN FOR! It uses the brain to gather the information which it then thinks about, draws its conclusions, and then uses the brain to express the thought. There is nothing in your answer that contradicts what I have written here. You simply couch it in less precise terms.

It is you who is imprecise in the bold. In order for the soul to create a thought it enters the brain networks and uses those networks to actually form the complete thought. Without that attachment no thoughts can form, and because of that required attachment, if the brain is sick the soul can only have sick thoughts and the soul can't even realize they are sick, since the soul must use those circuits to create and to interpret what is created..


DAVID: Your previous impressions about dualism have been locked into not understanding my descriptions, with the soul in your version, at some separate distance dictating to the brain. The soul must use the brain circuits to form thought.

dhw: What on earth does “at some separate distance” mean? My interpretation of dualism is that just as different compartments of the brain are believed to be responsible for imparting different sets of information, the soul is the immaterial self that resides within the brain. And yet again, of course the soul uses the brain: for information and implementation.

Also for thought creation. Your imprecise 'implementation' is a gross tent of a word which doesn't say how it must happen under the tent. You have a soul simply dictating to a separate brain which responds. I have them intimately bound together to form thought as described here.


DAVID: Thus a sick brain can only produce sick thoughts which the soul cannot prevent from appearing in sick form.

dhw: But the dualist’s sick brain does not produce thoughts. It produces the information that the dualist’s soul thinks about. It is the dualist’s soul that “forms” the thought. Yes or no?

DAVID: No. Only by using the brain as I describe above. Egnor and I have the same view.

dhw: This is the strangest “no”. What does it use the brain for? See above, and see post after post. You wrote “I am my soul”. Is the dualist’s soul the thinking, decision-making part of the self or isn’t it?

It is the driver of thoughts and decisions, but it must be fully attached to the brain circuits which are used to create and form thoughts under the soul's direction/initiation. One does not work without the other, which is why sick brain equals sick thoughts, and the soul can't stop or correct them.


dhw: You gave us an extreme case of permanent sickness: the psychopath commits murder. Your verdict: “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”. The sick psychopath “cannot socialize because his brain makes him that way. […] He can’t help what he is.” But if the brain makes him what he is, and normal thinking comes from a normal brain, then it is the brain that makes all of us what we are. So what is the function of a soul? You could hardly make a clearer case for materialism, or for determinism. (And of course, you may be right.)

DAVID: Still total confusion. Absorb the above explanation without reverting to your previous teaching.

dhw: Without glossing over how the soul uses the brain, please explain how “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, and “his brain makes him that way”, and “he can’t help what he is” all comes to mean that there is an immaterial soul which has free will.

I've glossed over nothing. The immaterial soul must work with a normal brain to have normal thinking. The psychopath has an abnormal brain, so his abnormal crimes are physically his doings but not his soul's fault. Don't kill him, institutionalize him for life.

This is the way I've always viewed dualism and it is Egnor's way. Your view of dualism is totally different and you haven't ever understood how I see a required connection to the actual physical brain circuits: why do I demand that? Because that is what happens in life.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Sunday, December 13, 2020, 12:48 (1441 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Over and over you say the soul uses the brain. There is no disagreement between us, but you continually gloss over WHAT IT USES THE BRAIN FOR! It uses the brain to gather the information which it then thinks about, draws its conclusions, and then uses the brain to express the thought. There is nothing in your answer that contradicts what I have written here. You simply couch it in less precise terms.

DAVID: It is you who is imprecise in the bold.

Then let me spell the bold out for you with a simple example. The dualist’s immaterial soul processes the information passed on by the material brain, makes a decision and instructs the material brain to mobilize the material mechanisms of the voice to tell the world: “This is my decision.” The same process applies to every decision the soul makes: it mobilizes the material brain to mobilize those parts of the body that are able to give material expression to the soul’s thoughts.

DAVID: In order for the soul to create a thought it enters the brain networks and uses those networks to actually form the complete thought.

Earlier you accused me of separating the soul from the brain. Now you have it entering the brain! Where was it before, then? And HOW else does it “use” the networks of the brain, in addition to processing the information which the brain has given it, and then to giving material expression to its thoughts, as explained above? This is the question you continually avoid answering.

DAVID: Without that attachment no thoughts can form...

Of course the soul can’t form a thought if it doesn’t have something to think about!

DAVID: ...and because of that required attachment, if the brain is sick the soul can only have sick thoughts and the soul can't even realize they are sick, since the soul must use those circuits to create and to interpret what is created.

That means the soul is incapable of thinking about the information passed on to it by the brain if the information is false! You complain that “uses the brain to express the thought” is imprecise! What does your last comment mean? Circuits = the material brain. What does the soul create? It uses the (circuits of) the brain to gather information concerning which it creates its thoughts! It doesn’t interpret its thoughts (“what is created”); it has created its thoughts by interpreting the information given to it by the brain. And if it thinks the information is wrong, it will challenge that information. If it didn’t, we would believe every word our brain passes on to us from our newspapers!

DAVID: […] You have a soul simply dictating to a separate brain which responds. I have them intimately bound together to form thought as described here.

It was you who said above that “the soul enters the brain”, and I wrote that the soul is the “immaterial self that resides within the brain”. In fact the binding is so “intimate” that materialists believe the thinking is actually performed by part of the material brain, as you frequently but accidentally imply whenever you talk of the brain producing thought. And you have not described how they form thought together. You have merely stated it. I have described how they do it, and all you have done is gloss over the different stages of the process.

DAVID: Thus a sick brain can only produce sick thoughts which the soul cannot prevent from appearing in sick form.

dhw: […] Is the dualist’s soul the thinking, decision-making part of the self or isn’t it?

DAVID: It is the driver of thoughts and decisions, but it must be fully attached to the brain circuits which are used to create and form thoughts under the soul's direction/initiation. One does not work without the other...

Again trying to gloss over HOW the soul “uses” the brain circuits. See above.

DAVID: ...which is why sick brain equals sick thoughts, and the soul can't stop or correct them.

But the function of the soul is to process the information given to it by the brain. If the information is false, no matter what the cause, an immaterial soul should be able to think about it and even detect its falseness (magician saws woman in half...dictator gets ten million votes from nine million voters). Where do you draw the line between false information and sick information? A theist says God told him it’s right to kill Mr X because Mr X is an atheist. Is this decision due to false information, a sick brain, a sick soul? When you say “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, what are your criteria for “normal”? Someone who thinks like you? ;-) If in life abnormal thought is inevitable as a result of an abnormal brain, and what you call normality is dependent on the normality of the brain, and if during a seizure “sick brain can only produce sick thoughts” and “sick brain equals sick thoughts”, and normal thoughts return when the brain is no longer sick, the same conclusion must apply to “normal” as to “abnormal”: “His brain makes him that way...He can’t help what he is.” The so-called “soul” has no role to play and might just as well not be there. Unequivocal support for materialism and determinism.And maybe that is the truth. But some psychic experiences, including NDEs, suggest otherwise. I remain neutral.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Sunday, December 13, 2020, 21:41 (1441 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: In order for the soul to create a thought it enters the brain networks and uses those networks to actually form the complete thought.

dhw: Earlier you accused me of separating the soul from the brain. Now you have it entering the brain! Where was it before, then? And HOW else does it “use” the networks of the brain, in addition to processing the information which the brain has given it, and then to giving material expression to its thoughts, as explained above? This is the question you continually avoid answering.

I've constantly answered and you refuse to accept it. The soul must actively use its brain networks to form a thought. It doesn't dictate to the brain as you imply.


DAVID: Without that attachment no thoughts can form...

dhw: Of course the soul can’t form a thought if it doesn’t have something to think about!


It can't think about anything unless it is actively engaged with the brain networks.


DAVID: ...and because of that required attachment, if the brain is sick the soul can only have sick thoughts and the soul can't even realize they are sick, since the soul must use those circuits to create and to interpret what is created.

dhw: That means the soul is incapable of thinking about the information passed on to it by the brain if the information is false!

Exactly!!! It is forced to accept the false information or thinking.

dhw: You complain that “uses the brain to express the thought” is imprecise! What does your last comment mean? Circuits = the material brain. What does the soul create? It uses the (circuits of) the brain to gather information concerning which it creates its thoughts! It doesn’t interpret its thoughts (“what is created”); it has created its thoughts by interpreting the information given to it by the brain. And if it thinks the information is wrong, it will challenge that information.

This is you separatist concept, nothing like how I keep telling you I view it. The bold is where you are entirely wrong. The psychopath does not know He is a psychopath. From his standpoint he is normal. The soul is completely required to use its brain to create its thoughts, and must accept bad information if it is given. Sick brain always results in sick thinking and the soul is trapped because of the requirement to use brain networks for its thinking and understanding what is transpiring.


DAVID: Thus a sick brain can only produce sick thoughts which the soul cannot prevent from appearing in sick form.

dhw: […] Is the dualist’s soul the thinking, decision-making part of the self or isn’t it?

DAVID: It is the driver of thoughts and decisions, but it must be fully attached to the brain circuits which are used to create and form thoughts under the soul's direction/initiation. One does not work without the other...

dhw: Again trying to gloss over HOW the soul “uses” the brain circuits. See above.

No glossing. An exact description of how the soul is bound to use the brain circuits to create thoughts/concepts


DAVID: ...which is why sick brain equals sick thoughts, and the soul can't stop or correct them.

dhw: But the function of the soul is to process the information given to it by the brain. If the information is false, no matter what the cause, an immaterial soul should be able to think about it and even detect its falseness. Where do you draw the line between false information and sick information?

To answer the question the soul must accept false and sick information. The living soul can only create correct thoughts as its brain allows. Sick brain, sick thoughts. Here again you have separated the soul from its brain. The psychopath does not know he is sick. He may recognize he is breaking rules the rest of us have set up, but her doesn't care and can't change himself. The colored suggestion cannot happen. The immortal soul is tied to the normal or sick brain and trapped with the result of the brain's illness. Exactly why we institutionalize and not kill psychopaths. They have no ethical controls.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Monday, December 14, 2020, 17:52 (1440 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: In order for the soul to create a thought it enters the brain networks and uses those networks to actually form the complete thought.

dhw: Earlier you accused me of separating the soul from the brain. Now you have it entering the brain! Where was it before, then? And HOW else does it “use” the networks of the brain, in addition to processing the information which the brain has given it, and then to giving material expression to its thoughts, as explained above? This is the question you continually avoid answering.

DAVID: I've constantly answered and you refuse to accept it. The soul must actively use its brain networks to form a thought. It doesn't dictate to the brain as you imply.

You constantly repeat that the dualist’s soul uses the brain to form a thought. I constantly point out HOW it does so: it gathers information from the brain, thinks about it, works out its concepts/takes its decisions etc, and then instructs the brain to give material expression to its thoughts (e.g. by speaking, writing, manufacturing etc.). I ask you what other uses it makes of the brain, and you never answer. Now you have even denied one of the two uses: apparently the soul does NOT instruct the brain to give material expression to its thoughts. So how does the soul implement its decisions?

DAVID: ..., if the brain is sick the soul can only have sick thoughts and the soul can't even realize they are sick, since the soul must use those circuits to create and to interpret what is created. [dhw’s bold]

dhw: That means the soul is incapable of thinking about the information passed on to it by the brain if the information is false!

DAVID: Exactly!!! It is forced to accept the false information or thinking.

This is the point at which confusion takes over, largely because you refuse to clarify how the dualist’s soul uses the brain. I’ll substitute “healthy” for “normal” now, since the latter raises too many questions of definition. My argument begins with a healthy brain (i.e. not suffering from any sickness) supplying information, and the dualist’s soul thinking about it. For example, the teacher says God wants theists to murder atheists. 1st question to you: do you agree that the healthy dualist’s immaterial soul will decide whether this information passed by the teacher to the brain is true or false? 2nd question: do you agree that whatever action the dualist takes will be as a result of the immaterial soul instructing the brain to give material expression to its decision?

If your answer in either case is no, please explain how else the immaterial soul uses the healthy brain.

If your answer is yes, please explain why the immaterial soul becomes incapable of deciding whether the same information is true or false if it is passed on by a sick brain instead of a healthy brain. I would suggest that the antisocial or murderous behaviour of the petit mal patient and of the psychopath can only mean that the material brain's sickness either makes the immaterial soul sick as well (but how?), or there is no immaterial soul in the first place, and all information-processing and thought is done by the brain itself (materialism). Your subsequent comments and observations point to the latter:

Sick brain, sick thoughts.” “Sick brain always results in sick thinking”. And clearest of all: “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain.” What function does the soul perform if it is the brain that determines the nature of the thought? The soul might just as well not be there. And the fact that after the seizure (brain sickness) “normal” thought returns, clearly implies that the brain is the source of thought.

The ethical standards applied to the psychopath should therefore be applied to everyone (materialism and determinism). “His brain makes him that way”, and “he can’t help what he is.” But I am only following the implications of the argument put forward by Egnor and yourself. If you want a counter argument, I think you should stick to psychic experiences such as NDEs. I myself remain neutral.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 15, 2020, 00:05 (1440 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I've constantly answered and you refuse to accept it. The soul must actively use its brain networks to form a thought. It doesn't dictate to the brain as you imply.

You constantly repeat that the dualist’s soul uses the brain to form a thought. I constantly point out HOW it does so: it gathers information from the brain, thinks about it, works out its concepts/takes its decisions etc, and then instructs the brain to give material expression to its thoughts (e.g. by speaking, writing, manufacturing etc.).

It uses all those mechanisms. But it also forms thoughts using the brain networks, and cannot do so if the brain is any way sick. The thoughts will be distorted and the soul cannot fix them, as it must use the sick brain to do so..

DAVID: ..., if the brain is sick the soul can only have sick thoughts and the soul can't even realize they are sick, since the soul must use those circuits to create and to interpret what is created. [dhw’s bold]

dhw: That means the soul is incapable of thinking about the information passed on to it by the brain if the information is false!

DAVID: Exactly!!! It is forced to accept the false information or thinking.

This is the point at which confusion takes over, largely because you refuse to clarify how the dualist’s soul uses the brain. I’ll substitute “healthy” for “normal” now, since the latter raises too many questions of definition. My argument begins with a healthy brain (i.e. not suffering from any sickness) supplying information, and the dualist’s soul thinking about it. For example, the teacher says God wants theists to murder atheists. 1st question to you: do you agree that the healthy dualist’s immaterial soul will decide whether this information passed by the teacher to the brain is true or false?

1) If the brain the soul is using is normal, it will know false, because the soul using a normal brain is clear thinking.

2nd question: do you agree that whatever action the dualist takes will be as a result of the immaterial soul instructing the brain to give material expression to its decision?

The soul doesn't just instruct the brain. it must use the brain circuits to have brain form a thought of false.


dhw: If your answer is yes, please explain why the immaterial soul becomes incapable of deciding whether the same information is true or false if it is passed on by a sick brain instead of a healthy brain.

Because the soul can only think with clarity in using the circuits in a normal brain. If the brain is sick, the soul trying to use its circuits will only receive false information or incorrect analytic thought.

Sick brain, sick thoughts.” “Sick brain always results in sick thinking”. And clearest of all: “Normal thinking can only come from a normal brain.” What function does the soul perform if it is the brain that determines the nature of the thought? The soul might just as well not be there. And the fact that after the seizure (brain sickness) “normal” thought returns, clearly implies that the brain is the source of thought.

dhw: The ethical standards applied to the psychopath should therefore be applied to everyone (materialism and determinism). “His brain makes him that way”, and “he can’t help what he is.” But I am only following the implications of the argument put forward by Egnor and yourself. If you want a counter argument, I think you should stick to psychic experiences such as NDEs. I myself remain neutral.

The psychopath example I used I used is for the purpose of showing you a psychopath cannot develop a conscience, but the examples you are tortuously using above are all folks who can know or learn right and wrong, and are therefore guilty of crimes. For an example: a sociopathic child (and I've handled them with the parents) can learn to behave, and the trick is to let them get into trouble and receive the consequences, without protecting them and they gradually learn to respect the rest of us.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 15, 2020, 04:57 (1440 days ago) @ David Turell

How the self and the brain relate is shown in what happened today. Susan's Mother called late in the afternoon and I spoke with her. She called at the urging of Susan's father. She had asked him if Susan and the 'other' Susan had come by their house. She didn't believe her husband (my father-in-law). I told her I had been with Susan all day and we had not gone by their house at any time. The 'other Susan' is an hallucinatory second Susan self.

Her Mother has serve senile dementia. Her brain scan looks like swiss cheese with destroyed areas everywhere. She thinks all her hallucinations are real. Her self, her soul and her mind are convinced they are real. The second Susan is not the only delusion. There are several that are so real they frighten her. I needn't describe them, but she is sure they are all real.

I don't know how this story fits into your weird concepts about how the soul relates to its brain. Frankie's soul does not know anything is wrong! It is a simple idea: sick brain =s sick soul thoughts, because, and this is the key, the immaterial soul HAS to use the sick brain to think and the soul is fooled, and can never realize it. The immaterial soul uses a material brain for creation of thought. That is true, living dualism we all experience. We know the brain stores all sorts of information and helps is our sensations to fill in holes in what we realize. That is why cloud formations will look like familiar objects like Mickey Mouse, England, a woman's head. I views this as helpful, not distortion of real thought, such as abstractions with which I formed the thoughts behind this exposition. In that case I/soul am running the show and the brain is responding appropriately performing my thoughts, which I recognize as true to my intentional meanings. Pattern help is what confused Romansh.

Your dualistic concept comes across a separate soul dictating to its brain, in full control even if its brain is sick. No way in real life. Psychopaths cannot know they are wrong and cannot be taught to change and develop a conscience. Sociopaths can and do if pressured. Normal folks know right from wrong, and have no excuse.

Dualism must exist. The way I view my interpretation of it is very comfortable and realistic if we simply examine how we live with our thoughts.

The other aspect of it comes from NDE's. It tells us a non-functioning brain allows the soul to separate from it and somehow think on its own, and this implies that the same circumstance happens after true death.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Tuesday, December 15, 2020, 14:32 (1439 days ago) @ David Turell

PART ONE
Although we’ve had these discussions before, I think it’s worth making another effort, but these are deep waters and it doesn’t help if they get muddied. I will quote some of your comments, answer them as briefly as possible, and then try to provide a round-up of the arguments. Our basic subject is dualism v materialism, with free will as a related question.

dhw: [the soul] gathers information from the brain, thinks about it, works out its concepts/takes its decisions etc, and then instructs the brain to give material expression to its thoughts.

DAVID: It uses all those mechanisms. But it also forms thoughts using the brain networks, and cannot do so if the brain is any way sick. The thoughts will be distorted and the soul cannot fix them, as it must use the sick brain to do so.

First you say the soul cannot form thoughts if the brain is sick. Then you say the thoughts will be distorted. Are there thoughts or aren’t there, and what thinks them? Quotes from you: “sick brain can only produce sick thoughts”; “sick brain equals sick thoughts”; “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”. All suggesting that the brain is the source of thought (= materialism).

DAVID: 1) If the brain the soul is using is normal, it will know false, because the soul using a normal brain is clear thinking.
DAVID: 2) The soul doesn't just instruct the brain. it must use the brain circuits to have brain form a thought of false.

You now have the soul making the brain think. (In dualism, one would expect the brain’s passing of information to make the soul think.) Your concept of the thinking brain is confirmed by the following:

DAVID: If the brain is sick, the soul trying to use its circuits will only receive false information or incorrect analytic thought.

Here you have the soul receiving not only the information, but also the brain’s analysis of the information. If the sick brain offers a sick analysis, the soul can do nothing about it, and as “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, there will be no need for the soul to do anything anyway. This makes the very concept of a soul unnecessary, because the thinking, analysing brain = materialism.

DAVID: The psychopath example I used is for the purpose of showing you a psychopath cannot develop a conscience, but the examples you are tortuously using above are all folks who can know or learn right and wrong, and are therefore guilty of crimes.

This is the point at which I would like to summarize the arguments, which in effect boil down to the source of consciousness itself. The psychopath has permanent defects in the brain; the epileptic has temporary defects. These might be put on a par with the effects of drugs and alcohol, as evidence that the brain is the source of consciousness/thought (“sick brain equals sick thoughts” plus the other quotes above). And the awful example of your mother-in-law’s dementia – this is becoming increasingly common, and I can only express my sympathy to all of you – is further evidence for materialism and determinism. The diseased brain produces false information and false analysis of the information. There is no role for a soul. But this is only one third of the argument.

Your second point can be extended: although we know that changes to the brain can cause changes in thought patterns (materialism), we also know that changes in thought patterns can change the brain. Immaterial thoughts, emotions, new experiences, learning etc. can release chemicals or result in new connections. This known fact does not provide evidence for either theory: the immaterial factors may be the product of a soul, or it may be that the brain produces them. We don’t know the source of consciousness, and so we don’t know the source of our thinking.

The third part of the argument is so-called psychic experiences, including NDEs. If they are real – and I for one am not prepared to dismiss them – then they are evidence for dualism.
As is so often the case, I remain neutral, because it seems to me that there is no conclusive evidence for either theory, and the same applies to free will, which also depends on what we believe to be the source of consciousness (plus certain other factors that we have discussed elsewhere).

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Tuesday, December 15, 2020, 14:43 (1439 days ago) @ dhw

PART TWO

I have briefly covered the sad example of your mother-in-law’s dementia in Part One. You have raised two other points which I’d like to reply to.

DAVID: We know the brain stores all sorts of information and helps is our sensations to fill in holes in what we realize. That is why cloud formations will look like familiar objects like Mickey Mouse, England, a woman's head. […] Pattern help is what confused Romansh.

Romansh was not confused. His argument was that there was no escaping the chain of cause and effect, going right back to the fact that if the universe didn't exist, we would not be here. Pattern forming underlies the perception department of gestalt psychology and is integral to the way we interpret the world and generally form meanings. Basically, we join up the dots to create a coherent pattern. It sheds no light whatsoever on the problem of the source of consciousness or the clash between dualism versus materialism. Whether you say the brain or the soul joins the dots is a matter of personal belief.

DAVID: The other aspect of it comes from NDE's. It tells us a non-functioning brain allows the soul to separate from it and somehow think on its own, and this implies that the same circumstance happens after true death.

Your “somehow” is the crux of the whole matter. But NDEs clearly denote that the soul is the immaterial thinking part of the self (evidence for dualism). However, if the soul is capable of thinking without the brain, it makes no sense for it to lose its ability to think while it is residing in the brain, even if the brain is sick. (Problem discussed in Part One.) The concept of an afterlife also raises the intriguing question of what sort of soul the psychopath will have when he/she has got rid of the brain – but that’s another subject!

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 15, 2020, 18:13 (1439 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I have briefly covered the sad example of your mother-in-law’s dementia in Part One. You have raised two other points which I’d like to reply to.

DAVID: We know the brain stores all sorts of information and helps is our sensations to fill in holes in what we realize. That is why cloud formations will look like familiar objects like Mickey Mouse, England, a woman's head. […] Pattern help is what confused Romansh.

dhw: Romansh was not confused. His argument was that there was no escaping the chain of cause and effect, going right back to the fact that if the universe didn't exist, we would not be here. Pattern forming underlies the perception department of gestalt psychology and is integral to the way we interpret the world and generally form meanings. Basically, we join up the dots to create a coherent pattern. It sheds no light whatsoever on the problem of the source of consciousness or the clash between dualism versus materialism. Whether you say the brain or the soul joins the dots is a matter of personal belief.

Not for me. Both Romansh and you are confused. I run my brain, I force it to get educated as a doctor. I am my soul. Only 40% of my brain is under genetic control. I am 60% free to accept or reject my parent's influence and I can develop myself as I wish. No one told me to enter medicine, except me. Personally my father figure was from a weak but very sweet Father. My Mother was exceedingly strong and I had break away from her, and did. My American-Jewish background helps form principals I live by, but I recognize them and changes them as I learn. I started out as very liberal and now I am a libertarian, directly opposite.


DAVID: The other aspect of it comes from NDE's. It tells us a non-functioning brain allows the soul to separate from it and somehow think on its own, and this implies that the same circumstance happens after true death.

dhw: Your “somehow” is the crux of the whole matter. But NDEs clearly denote that the soul is the immaterial thinking part of the self (evidence for dualism). However, if the soul is capable of thinking without the brain, it makes no sense for it to lose its ability to think while it is residing in the brain, even if the brain is sick. (Problem discussed in Part One.) The concept of an afterlife also raises the intriguing question of what sort of soul the psychopath will have when he/she has got rid of the brain – but that’s another subject!

The NDE evidence forms my theory that the soul in life must think using the material brain. but it has dual roles and in death is capable of conscious thought without a brain.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 10:17 (1438 days ago) @ David Turell

PART TWO

DAVID: We know the brain stores all sorts of information and helps is our sensations to fill in holes in what we realize. That is why cloud formations will look like familiar objects like Mickey Mouse, England, a woman's head. […] Pattern help is what confused Romansh.

dhw: Romansh was not confused. His argument was that there was no escaping the chain of cause and effect, going right back to the fact that if the universe didn't exist, we would not be here. Pattern forming underlies the perception department of gestalt psychology and is integral to the way we interpret the world and generally form meanings. Basically, we join up the dots to create a coherent pattern. It sheds no light whatsoever on the problem of the source of consciousness or the clash between dualism versus materialism. Whether you say the brain or the soul joins the dots is a matter of personal belief.

DAVID: Not for me. Both Romansh and you are confused. I run my brain, I force it to get educated as a doctor. I am my soul. Only 40% of my brain is under genetic control. I am 60% free to accept or reject my parent's influence and I can develop myself as I wish. No one told me to enter medicine, except me. Personally my father figure was from a weak but very sweet Father. My Mother was exceedingly strong and I had break away from her, and did. My American-Jewish background helps form principals I live by, but I recognize them and changes them as I learn. I started out as very liberal and now I am a libertarian, directly opposite.

I have no idea what brought this on. You had misread Romansh’s argument against free will, and you had entered into gestalt psychology, which describes how we form meanings and has nothing to do with the existence of a soul or of free will. Your fascinating biography illustrates option 2, which we discussed earlier: namely, the defence of free will as being decisions made entirely by the self (regardless of what influences made us what we are) and by no one else, within limitations imposed by our own abilities and by the situation we are in.

DAVID: The other aspect of it comes from NDE's. It tells us a non-functioning brain allows the soul to separate from it and somehow think on its own, and this implies that the same circumstance happens after true death.

dhw: Your “somehow” is the crux of the whole matter. But NDEs clearly denote that the soul is the immaterial thinking part of the self (evidence for dualism). However, if the soul is capable of thinking without the brain, it makes no sense for it to lose its ability to think while it is residing in the brain, even if the brain is sick. (Problem discussed in Part One.) The concept of an afterlife also raises the intriguing question of what sort of soul the psychopath will have when he/she has got rid of the brain – but that’s another subject!

DAVID: The NDE evidence forms my theory that the soul in life must think using the material brain. but it has dual roles and in death is capable of conscious thought without a brain.

NDE evidence only suggests that the soul does the thinking in life, but it uses the brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Otherwise, we would be unable to live in the material world. NDEs contradict the theory that the immaterial thinking soul is unable to think when the brain is sick or not functioning.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 15:08 (1438 days ago) @ dhw

PART TWO

DAVID: The other aspect of it comes from NDE's. It tells us a non-functioning brain allows the soul to separate from it and somehow think on its own, and this implies that the same circumstance happens after true death.

dhw: Your “somehow” is the crux of the whole matter. But NDEs clearly denote that the soul is the immaterial thinking part of the self (evidence for dualism). However, if the soul is capable of thinking without the brain, it makes no sense for it to lose its ability to think while it is residing in the brain, even if the brain is sick. (Problem discussed in Part One.) The concept of an afterlife also raises the intriguing question of what sort of soul the psychopath will have when he/she has got rid of the brain – but that’s another subject!

DAVID: The NDE evidence forms my theory that the soul in life must think using the material brain. but it has dual roles and in death is capable of conscious thought without a brain.

dhw: NDE evidence only suggests that the soul does the thinking in life, but it uses the brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Otherwise, we would be unable to live in the material world. NDEs contradict the theory that the immaterial thinking soul is unable to think when the brain is sick or not functioning.

Agreed. But are we clear that a sick but functioning brain distorts thoughts the soul tries to create as it uses the brain to think?

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Thursday, December 17, 2020, 11:11 (1437 days ago) @ David Turell

PART TWO:

dhw: NDE evidence only suggests that the soul does the thinking in life, but it uses the brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Otherwise, we would be unable to live in the material world. NDEs contradict the theory that the immaterial thinking soul is unable to think when the brain is sick or not functioning.

DAVID: Agreed. But are we clear that a sick but functioning brain distorts thoughts the soul tries to create as it uses the brain to think?

You are asking me to defend dualism against the materialist argument – which you have yourself inadvertently summarized quite perfectly: “sick brain can only produce sick thoughts”. The dualist’s brain does not produce thoughts. The dualist’s soul produces the thoughts. So the answer to your question is no. If the sick but functioning brain produces sick thoughts, just as "normal thinking can only come from a normal brain", there is no soul. The materialist case is supported by the fact that when the epileptic seizure is over, and the brain returns to normal, the patient's normal thinking patterns re-emerge. NDEs, however, suggest that there is a soul, because the patient is able to think normally when the brain is not functioning normally.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 17, 2020, 21:44 (1437 days ago) @ dhw

PART TWO:

dhw: NDE evidence only suggests that the soul does the thinking in life, but it uses the brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Otherwise, we would be unable to live in the material world. NDEs contradict the theory that the immaterial thinking soul is unable to think when the brain is sick or not functioning.

DAVID: Agreed. But are we clear that a sick but functioning brain distorts thoughts the soul tries to create as it uses the brain to think?

dhw: You are asking me to defend dualism against the materialist argument – which you have yourself inadvertently summarized quite perfectly: “sick brain can only produce sick thoughts”. The dualist’s brain does not produce thoughts. The dualist’s soul produces the thoughts. So the answer to your question is no. If the sick but functioning brain produces sick thoughts, just as "normal thinking can only come from a normal brain", there is no soul. The materialist case is supported by the fact that when the epileptic seizure is over, and the brain returns to normal, the patient's normal thinking patterns re-emerge. NDEs, however, suggest that there is a soul, because the patient is able to think normally when the brain is not functioning normally.

"Sick brain. sick thoughts" does not mean the brain can think on its own. That is your strange interpretation of what I present It means when the soul uses the brain's networks to create thought; if the brain is sick, the intended thoughts are distorted AND NOT WHAT THE SOUL INTENDED is what appears as thought. The bold does not imply all of those relationships. Only the soul makes proper thoughts by using the normal brain. This is my concept of dualism. Any person with a self concept knows this.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART TWO

by dhw, Friday, December 18, 2020, 10:52 (1436 days ago) @ David Turell

PART TWO

dhw: You are asking me to defend dualism against the materialist argument – which you have yourself inadvertently summarized quite perfectly: “sick brain can only produce sick thoughts”. The dualist’s brain does not produce thoughts. The dualist’s soul produces the thoughts.

DAVID: "Sick brain. sick thoughts" does not mean the brain can think on its own. That is your strange interpretation of what I present It means when the soul uses the brain's networks to create thought; if the brain is sick, the intended thoughts are distorted AND NOT WHAT THE SOUL INTENDED is what appears as thought. The bold does not imply all of those relationships. Only the soul makes proper thoughts by using the normal brain. This is my concept of dualism. Any person with a self concept knows this.

I shan’t go through the list of quotes in which you have the brain producing thoughts, as bolded. So long as you stick to your agreement that the dualist’s brain does not think, we can drop that subject. What you have specified here raises a different problem. You now describe the dualist’s soul as actually having normal intentions which are overridden by the sick brain. As if the psychopath, the epileptic, the drug addict, the drunkard actually intended to be kind to the person they have murdered. This is the weirdest of all your versions. Do you really think the soul says to itself: “I don’t want to harm my dear wife” – and the sick brain says “Kill her” so the soul gives in? We agree that diseases, drugs, alcohol affect the brain and cause the person to act abnormally. This is a huge problem for the dualist, because it implies that the brain is the source of the thoughts that lead to abnormal behaviour, which seems to be confirmed by the fact that when/if the brain is freed from these influences, normal thought returns. If the sick brain offers false information to the dualist’s immaterial soul, that should not prevent the soul from continuing to perform its function of processing, analysing and even rejecting false information, as it does when the brain is not sick. Our brains present us with false information all the time. Otherwise, we would believe every word our politicians and our media tell us!

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART TWO

by David Turell @, Friday, December 18, 2020, 14:36 (1436 days ago) @ dhw

PART TWO

dhw: You are asking me to defend dualism against the materialist argument – which you have yourself inadvertently summarized quite perfectly: “sick brain can only produce sick thoughts”. The dualist’s brain does not produce thoughts. The dualist’s soul produces the thoughts.

DAVID: "Sick brain. sick thoughts" does not mean the brain can think on its own. That is your strange interpretation of what I present It means when the soul uses the brain's networks to create thought; if the brain is sick, the intended thoughts are distorted AND NOT WHAT THE SOUL INTENDED is what appears as thought. The bold does not imply all of those relationships. Only the soul makes proper thoughts by using the normal brain. This is my concept of dualism. Any person with a self concept knows this.

dhw: I shan’t go through the list of quotes in which you have the brain producing thoughts, as bolded. So long as you stick to your agreement that the dualist’s brain does not think, we can drop that subject. What you have specified here raises a different problem. You now describe the dualist’s soul as actually having normal intentions which are overridden by the sick brain. As if the psychopath, the epileptic, the drug addict, the drunkard actually intended to be kind to the person they have murdered. This is the weirdest of all your versions. Do you really think the soul says to itself: “I don’t want to harm my dear wife” – and the sick brain says “Kill her” so the soul gives in? We agree that diseases, drugs, alcohol affect the brain and cause the person to act abnormally. This is a huge problem for the dualist, because it implies that the brain is the source of the thoughts that lead to abnormal behaviour, which seems to be confirmed by the fact that when/if the brain is freed from these influences, normal thought returns. If the sick brain offers false information to the dualist’s immaterial soul, that should not prevent the soul from continuing to perform its function of processing, analysing and even rejecting false information, as it does when the brain is not sick. Our brains present us with false information all the time. Otherwise, we would believe every word our politicians and our media tell us!

You have twisted your theorizing into knots. A mentally ill patient cannot control his weird view of the world. HIS SOUL CANNOT REJECT THE STRANGE THOUGHTS THAT APPEAR DESPITE ANY ATTEMPT THE SOUL MIGHT TRY. The soul/self can only use the brain it has. Sick brain produces only sick thoughts for the soul driving it.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 15, 2020, 17:51 (1439 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: [the soul] gathers information from the brain, thinks about it, works out its concepts/takes its decisions etc, and then instructs the brain to give material expression to its thoughts.

DAVID: It uses all those mechanisms. But it also forms thoughts using the brain networks, and cannot do so if the brain is any way sick. The thoughts will be distorted and the soul cannot fix them, as it must use the sick brain to do so.

dhw: First you say the soul cannot form thoughts if the brain is sick. Then you say the thoughts will be distorted.

Misinterpreted. The soul can always form thought, but a sick brain will always make them distorted.

dhw: Are there thoughts or aren’t there, and what thinks them?...All suggesting that the brain is the source of thought (= materialism).

The soul using the brain networks is the source of thought. The brain cannot think without the soul driving it. I use me as example. I am a living soul.

dhw: You now have the soul making the brain think. (In dualism, one would expect the brain’s passing of information to make the soul think.)

That is your contrary form of dualism to mine. I/ living soul drive my brain to think.


DAVID: If the brain is sick, the soul trying to use its circuits will only receive false information or incorrect analytic thought.

dhw: Here you have the soul receiving not only the information, but also the brain’s analysis of the information. If the sick brain offers a sick analysis, the soul can do nothing about it, and as “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, there will be no need for the soul to do anything anyway. This makes the very concept of a soul unnecessary, because the thinking, analysing brain = materialism.

All of this is from your backward view of my dualism. The analysis is performed by the soul using the brain networks. Sick brain, sick analysis. I have the soul driving the brain's processes, and you want the brain to drive the soul. Don't you/your soul make your brain think?


DAVID: The psychopath example I used is for the purpose of showing you a psychopath cannot develop a conscience, but the examples you are tortuously using above are all folks who can know or learn right and wrong, and are therefore guilty of crimes.

dhw: This is the point at which I would like to summarize the arguments, ... There is no role for a soul. But this is only one third of the argument.

The soul's role is to drive thinking in the brain. The brain does not think unless the soul wishes to think.


dhw: Your second point can be extended: although we know that changes to the brain can cause changes in thought patterns (materialism), we also know that changes in thought patterns can change the brain. Immaterial thoughts, emotions, new experiences, learning etc. can release chemicals or result in new connections. This known fact does not provide evidence for either theory: the immaterial factors may be the product of a soul, or it may be that the brain produces them. We don’t know the source of consciousness, and so we don’t know the source of our thinking.

You are complicating the issue. I don't have to know the source for consciousness to know I am conscious. I am a living soul who uses my brain to think. My brain never tells me what to think. I know I form my thoughts and use my brain to form thoughts I wish to form. The brain plasticity to which you refer is simply the brain reacting to handle my particular usage in a useful form.


dhw: The third part of the argument is so-called psychic experiences, including NDEs. If they are real – and I for one am not prepared to dismiss them – then they are evidence for dualism.
As is so often the case, I remain neutral, because it seems to me that there is no conclusive evidence for either theory, and the same applies to free will, which also depends on what we believe to be the source of consciousness (plus certain other factors that we have discussed elsewhere).

Now we have reached the consideration of the eternal, immortal soul. NDE's produce strong evidence it exists and can work/thinking without a functional brain. After 'real' permanent death, the NDE evidence allows us to propose an afterlife top which the soul goes. So I view my soul as in a dual form: living soul and immortal soul, same soul in two ways of operating. And finally, your view of this dualism theory is diametrically opposed to mine.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 10:12 (1438 days ago) @ David Turell

This post present an astonishing reversal of your own statements. I can only highlight the contradictions.

DAVID: [The soul] forms thoughts using the brain networks, and cannot do so if the brain is any way sick. The thoughts will be distorted .

dhw: First you say the soul cannot form thoughts if the brain is sick. Then you say the thoughts will be distorted.

DAVID: Misinterpreted. The soul can always form thoughts, but a sick brain will always make them distorted.

I’m simply drawing attention to your contradictory statements..

dhw: Are there thoughts or aren’t there, and what thinks them? Quotes from you: “sick brain can only produce sick thoughts”; “sick brain equals sick thoughts”; “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”. All suggesting that the brain is the source of thought (= materialism).

DAVID: The soul using the brain networks is the source of thought.

Agreed. The dualist’s soul uses the brain for information and implementation. The brain does not produce the thoughts.

DAVID: The brain cannot think without the soul driving it. […]

And back you go to your thinking brain! The dualist’s brain doesn’t think! The soul does the thinking!

dhw: You now have the soul making the brain think. (In dualism, one would expect the brain’s passing of information to make the soul think.)

DAVID: That is your contrary form of dualism to mine. I/ living soul drive my brain to think.

So what does the dualist's brain think about? More to the point, what processes the information provided by the brain, and what draws conclusions/makes decisions etc.?

DAVID: If the brain is sick, the soul trying to use its circuits will only receive false information or incorrect analytic thought.

dhw: Here you have the soul receiving not only the information, but also the brain’s analysis of the information. If the sick brain offers a sick analysis, the soul can do nothing about it, and as “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”, there will be no need for the soul to do anything anyway. This makes the very concept of a soul unnecessary, because the thinking, analysing brain = materialism.

DAVID: All of this is from your backward view of my dualism. The analysis is performed by the soul using the brain networks.

But that is not what you wrote! I’ve bolded it: “the soul will only receive…incorrect analytic thought.” And over and over again you talk of the brain thinking.

DAVID: Sick brain, sick analysis. I have the soul driving the brain's processes, and you want the brain to drive the soul. Don't you/your soul make your brain think?

Where on earth do you get that from? What “processes” are you talking about? It is you who keep telling us that the dualist's brain thinks. I keep hammering home that the dualist brain only provides information and material expression of the dualist soul’s thoughts!

DAVID: The soul's role is to drive thinking in the brain. The brain does not think unless the soul wishes to think.

What does this mean? You seem to be saying that the soul tells the brain to analyse all the information and come to a conclusion or decision! What else is there for it to think about?

dhw: […] although we know that changes to the brain can cause changes in thought patterns (materialism), we also know that changes in thought patterns can change the brain. Immaterial thoughts, emotions, new experiences, learning etc. can release chemicals or result in new connections. This known fact does not provide evidence for either theory: the immaterial factors may be the product of a soul, or it may be that the brain produces them. We don’t know the source of consciousness, and so we don’t know the source of our thinking.

DAVID: You are complicating the issue. I don't have to know the source for consciousness to know I am conscious. I am a living soul who uses my brain to think. My brain never tells me what to think.

But you have told us that you/your soul tells the brain to think! What does it think about? I didn't say you need to know the source to know you are conscious! That's silly. What I said is we know the brain changes thought, and thought changes the brain, so we can’t know from this whether the source of thought/ consciousness is soul or brain.

dhw: The third part of the argument is so-called psychic experiences, including NDEs. If they are real – and I for one am not prepared to dismiss them – then they are evidence for dualism.

DAVID: Now we have reached the consideration of the eternal, immortal soul. NDE's produce strong evidence it exists and can work/thinking without a functional brain. After 'real' permanent death, the NDE evidence allows us to propose an afterlife to which the soul goes.

Yes, that is one reason why I remain neutral.

DAVID: And finally, your view of this dualism theory is diametrically opposed to mine.

No it isn’t. I have presented both sides of the argument, and remain neutral. What I have criticized is that you continually ignore the question of what the dualist's soul uses the brain for, and you present the case for materialism by insisting that the brain thinks – even to the point of analysing the information it gathers.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 14:59 (1438 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Are there thoughts or aren’t there, and what thinks them? Quotes from you: “sick brain can only produce sick thoughts”; “sick brain equals sick thoughts”; “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”. All suggesting that the brain is the source of thought (= materialism).

DAVID: The soul using the brain networks is the source of thought.

dhw: Agreed. The dualist’s soul uses the brain for information and implementation. The brain does not produce the thoughts.

The soul produces thought by using the brain's networks. The brain can never do it on its own.


DAVID: The brain cannot think without the soul driving it. […]

dhw: And back you go to your thinking brain! The dualist’s brain doesn’t think! The soul does the thinking!

Exactly, using the brain.


dhw: You now have the soul making the brain think. (In dualism, one would expect the brain’s passing of information to make the soul think.)

DAVID: That is your contrary form of dualism to mine. I/ living soul drive my brain to think.

dhw: So what does the dualist's brain think about? More to the point, what processes the information provided by the brain, and what draws conclusions/makes decisions etc.?

Whatever the soul wants/has it do. The soul thinks only by using the brain.


DAVID: All of this is from your backward view of my dualism. The analysis is performed by the soul using the brain networks.

dhw: But that is not what you wrote! I’ve bolded it: “the soul will only receive…incorrect analytic thought.” And over and over again you talk of the brain thinking.

Only driven by the soul.

DAVID: The soul's role is to drive thinking in the brain. The brain does not think unless the soul wishes to think.

dhw" What does this mean? You seem to be saying that the soul tells the brain to analyse all the information and come to a conclusion or decision! What else is there for it to think about?

The brain doesn't analyze anything without the soul using the brain to do it.


dhw: […] although we know that changes to the brain can cause changes in thought patterns (materialism), we also know that changes in thought patterns can change the brain. Immaterial thoughts, emotions, new experiences, learning etc. can release chemicals or result in new connections. This known fact does not provide evidence for either theory: the immaterial factors may be the product of a soul, or it may be that the brain produces them. We don’t know the source of consciousness, and so we don’t know the source of our thinking.

DAVID: You are complicating the issue. I don't have to know the source for consciousness to know I am conscious. I am a living soul who uses my brain to think. My brain never tells me what to think.

dhw: But you have told us that you/your soul tells the brain to think!

The soul forms thoughts using the brain, a great difference.

dhw: What I said is we know the brain changes thought, and thought changes the brain, so we can’t know from this whether the source of thought/ consciousness is soul or brain.

My brain thinks only what I/soul want to think. Only a sick brain can change desired thought the soul wishes to make..


DAVID: And finally, your view of this dualism theory is diametrically opposed to mine.

dhw: No it isn’t. I have presented both sides of the argument, and remain neutral. What I have criticized is that you continually ignore the question of what the dualist's soul uses the brain for, and you present the case for materialism by insisting that the brain thinks – even to the point of analysing the information it gathers.

I totally reject materialism. The soul thinks by using the brain. The brain cannot think without a soul driving it. That should be quite clear.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by dhw, Thursday, December 17, 2020, 11:02 (1437 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Are there thoughts or aren’t there, and what thinks them? Quotes from you: “sick brain can only produce sick thoughts”; “sick brain equals sick thoughts”; “normal thinking can only come from a normal brain”. All suggesting that the brain is the source of thought (= materialism).

DAVID: The soul using the brain networks is the source of thought.

dhw: Agreed. The dualist’s soul uses the brain for information and implementation. The brain does not produce the thoughts.

DAVID: The soul produces thought by using the brain's networks. The brain can never do it on its own.

This is the first of a whole series of silly obfuscations. Yes, the soul does the thinking, and uses the brain for information and material expression of its thoughts. In your second sentence, what can’t the brain do on its own? Here’s your answer:

DAVID: The brain cannot think without the soul driving it. […]

dhw: Back you go to your thinking brain! The dualist’s brain doesn’t think! The soul does the thinking!

DAVID: Exactly, using the brain.

You’ve got it. The soul does the thinking, and uses the brain for information and material implementation/expression. That should be the end of this discussion. But still you go on and on telling us that the brain thinks:

DAVID: I/ living soul drive my brain to think.

dhw: So what does the dualist's brain think about? More to the point, what processes the information provided by the brain, and what draws conclusions/makes decisions etc.?

DAVID: Whatever the soul wants/has it do. The soul thinks only by using the brain.

Yes, the dualist's soul thinks by using the brain, as above. The soul does not drive the brain to think!

DAVID: The analysis is performed by the soul using the brain networks.

dhw: But that is not what you wrote! I’ve bolded it: “the soul will only receive…incorrect analytic thought.” And over and over again you talk of the brain thinking.

DAVID: Only driven by the soul.

Which means the soul drives the brain to do the analysing, which the soul then “receives”. But the dualist’s soul is supposed to do the analysing!

DAVID: The soul's role is to drive thinking in the brain. The brain does not think unless the soul wishes to think.

dhw: What does this mean? You seem to be saying that the soul tells the brain to analyse all the information and come to a conclusion or decision! What else is there for it to think about?

DAVID: The brain doesn't analyze anything without the soul using the brain to do it.

And what does THAT mean? You have the brain doing the analysis, and then you have the soul using the brain to do the analysis! Total confusion! You now repeat your acceptance of what I have said, directly contradicting all the stuff about the brain thinking:

dhw: But you have told us that you/your soul tells the brain to think!

DAVID: The soul forms thoughts using the brain, a great difference.

It’s an enormous difference. So please stop telling us that the soul tells the brain to think! The dualist’s brain does not do the thinking!

dhw: What I said is we know the brain changes thought, and thought changes the brain, so we can’t know from this whether the source of thought/ consciousness is soul or brain.

DAVID: My brain thinks only what I/soul want to think. Only a sick brain can change desired thought the soul wishes to make.

The dualist's brain doesn’t think. Full stop. Your comment totally misses the point I am making here, which is that the two-way process makes it impossible to judge whether the source of consciousness is a soul or the brain.

DAVID: And finally, your view of this dualism theory is diametrically opposed to mine.

dhw: No it isn’t. I have presented both sides of the argument, and remain neutral. What I have criticized is that you continually ignore the question of what the dualist's soul uses the brain for, and you present the case for materialism by insisting that the brain thinks – even to the point of analysing the information it gathers.

DAVID: I totally reject materialism. The soul thinks by using the brain. The brain cannot think without a soul driving it. That should be quite clear.

Yes, the soul thinks by using the brain. No, the soul does not drive the brain to think, because the brain does not think, as you keep agreeing and then disagreeing. The dualist’s soul uses the dualist’s brain for information and material implementation/ expression of the soul’s thoughts. Materialists argue that the brain does it all, including the thinking. Whenever you have the brain thinking, you are supporting materialism. (I'd better repeat that I remain neutral on the subject).

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 17, 2020, 20:46 (1437 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: The brain cannot think without the soul driving it. […]

dhw: Back you go to your thinking brain! The dualist’s brain doesn’t think! The soul does the thinking!

DAVID: Exactly, using the brain.

dhw: You’ve got it. The soul does the thinking, and uses the brain for information and material implementation/expression. That should be the end of this discussion. But still you go on and on telling us that the brain thinks:

DAVID: Whatever the soul wants/has it do. The soul thinks only by using the brain.

dhw: Yes, the dualist's soul thinks by using the brain, as above. The soul does not drive the brain to think!

Stated another way: only the soul can create and drive thought in the brain. The soul must use the brain networks to think. The brain can never create thought on its own. It provides sensory information and memorized information.


DAVID: The analysis is performed by the soul using the brain networks.

dhw: But that is not what you wrote! I’ve bolded it: “the soul will only receive…incorrect analytic thought.” And over and over again you talk of the brain thinking.

DAVID: Only driven by the soul.

dhw: Which means the soul drives the brain to do the analysing, which the soul then “receives”. But the dualist’s soul is supposed to do the analysing!

No,no,no!!! The soul uses the brain's networks to do the analysis. The soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool.


DAVID: The soul forms thoughts using the brain, a great difference.

dhw: It’s an enormous difference. So please stop telling us that the soul tells the brain to think! The dualist’s brain does not do the thinking!

The soul uses the brain as its machine to create thought. The brain cannot think on its own.


dhw: What I said is we know the brain changes thought, and thought changes the brain, so we can’t know from this whether the source of thought/ consciousness is soul or brain.

DAVID: My brain thinks only what I/soul want to think. Only a sick brain can change desired thought the soul wishes to make.

dhw: The dualist's brain doesn’t think. Full stop. Your comment totally misses the point I am making here, which is that the two-way process makes it impossible to judge whether the source of consciousness is a soul or the brain.

A sick brain will makes the reasonable thoughts by the soul sick thoughts. The soul has no control about the end product!!! Consciousness is beside the point. we don't know what makes it arise. Let's just stick to what runs the brain.


DAVID: And finally, your view of this dualism theory is diametrically opposed to mine.

dhw: No it isn’t. I have presented both sides of the argument, and remain neutral. What I have criticized is that you continually ignore the question of what the dualist's soul uses the brain for, and you present the case for materialism by insisting that the brain thinks – even to the point of analysing the information it gathers.

DAVID: I totally reject materialism. The soul thinks by using the brain. The brain cannot think without a soul driving it. That should be quite clear.

dhw: Yes, the soul thinks by using the brain. No, the soul does not drive the brain to think, because the brain does not think, as you keep agreeing and then disagreeing. The dualist’s soul uses the dualist’s brain for information and material implementation/ expression of the soul’s thoughts. Materialists argue that the brain does it all, including the thinking. Whenever you have the brain thinking, you are supporting materialism. (I'd better repeat that I remain neutral on the subject).

One last time, the soul creates thought using the brain networks, but in life the soul cannot think without a functional brain.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Friday, December 18, 2020, 10:48 (1436 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The brain cannot think without the soul driving it. […]

dhw: Back you go to your thinking brain! The dualist’s brain doesn’t think! The soul does the thinking!

DAVID: Stated another way: only the soul can create and drive thought in the brain. The soul must use the brain networks to think. The brain can never create thought on its own. It provides sensory information and memorized information.

Your "other way" is yet another jumble of obfuscations. I don’t understand the first sentence. What do you mean by “creating and driving thought in the brain”? Your second sentence (with your "on its own")implies that the brain creates thought when it works with the soul, whereas in dualism, it is the soul that creates thought, using the brain. Your last sentence correctly describes how the dualist’s soul uses the brain, but you have omitted the fact that the dualist’s soul also uses the brain to give material expression to its thoughts.

DAVID: The analysis is performed by the soul using the brain networks.

dhw: But that is not what you wrote! I’ve bolded it: “the soul will only receive…incorrect analytic thought.” And over and over again you talk of the brain thinking.
DAVID: Only driven by the soul.

dhw: Which means the soul drives the brain to do the analysing, which the soul then “receives”. But the dualist’s soul is supposed to do the analysing!

DAVID: No,no,no!!! The soul uses the brain's networks to do the analysis. The soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool.

I am the one who cried no, no, no. The dualist’s soul does not “receive incorrect analytic thought”. I’m glad you now see that your bolded statement above is totally wrong.

DAVID: The soul forms thoughts using the brain, a great difference.

dhw: It’s an enormous difference. So please stop telling us that the dualist's soul tells the brain to think! The dualist’s brain does not do the thinking!

DAVID: The soul uses the brain as its machine to create thought. The brain cannot think on its own.

The dualist’s brain cannot think. It is the materialist’s brain that thinks “on its own”. (See above.) And the dualist’s brain is not a machine that creates thought. It is a machine that provides information for the dualist’s soul to think about, and provides material expression for the soul’s immaterial thoughts. Why do keep trying to twist this simple description into tortuous ambiguities?

dhw: What I said is we know the brain changes thought, and thought changes the brain, so we can’t know from this whether the source of thought/ consciousness is soul or brain.

DAVID: My brain thinks only what I/soul want to think. Only a sick brain can change desired thought the soul wishes to make.

dhw: The dualist's brain doesn’t think. Full stop. Your comment totally misses the point I am making here, which is that the two-way process makes it impossible to judge whether the source of consciousness is a soul or the brain.

DAVID: A sick brain will makes the reasonable thoughts by the soul sick thoughts. The soul has no control about the end product!!! Consciousness is beside the point. we don't know what makes it arise. Let's just stick to what runs the brain.

We don’t know what runs the brain! That is why we have the clash between dualism and materialism! The dualist’s soul is supposed to run the brain – not the other way round. But if you claim that the immaterial, controlling soul is governed by the sick brain, there is really no point in having a soul at all. That is why materialists point to examples of sick thoughts (whether permanent [psychopaths] or temporary [epileptics]) as evidence that it is the brain that does the thinking – hence the fact that such wrong-doers are deemed not to have free will and therefore not to be responsible for their crimes.

dhw: Whenever you have the brain thinking, you are supporting materialism. (I'd better repeat that I remain neutral on the subject).

DAVID: One last time, the soul creates thought using the brain networks, but in life the soul cannot think without a functional brain.

First part spot on, at last! But the second part excludes one of the few pieces of evidence we have for the very existence of a soul – namely, NDEs, during which the brain is not functional but the patient is still alive. Without such cases (plus other psychic experiences), the argument for dualism would remain pretty thin. But I hope our discussion will now put an end to all the obfuscations with which you keep implying or explicitly stating that the dualist’s brain thinks.

Under “Brain mental capacity

QUOTE: “'To ‘warm up’, she requested a large number of cube root problems, that is, extracting the cube roots of large numbers, mostly in the millions, hundreds of millions, and trillions. The average time Devi took for extracting all of these cube roots was just six seconds, with a range of two to 10 seconds.'

DAVID: A form of highly functional autism. IQ can be raised by proper education to a degree, but this state is from birth and a gift.

Amazing and wonderful. These calculations would normally require hours of conscious thought and analysis, and I’m sure materialists would agree with you that such astonishing mental feats are to be directly attributed to the brain.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Friday, December 18, 2020, 14:29 (1436 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Which means the soul drives the brain to do the analysing, which the soul then “receives”. But the dualist’s soul is supposed to do the analysing!

DAVID: No,no,no!!! The soul uses the brain's networks to do the analysis. The soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool.

dhw: I am the one who cried no, no, no. The dualist’s soul does not “receive incorrect analytic thought”. I’m glad you now see that your bolded statement above is totally wrong.

DAVID: The soul forms thoughts using the brain, a great difference.

dhw: It’s an enormous difference. So please stop telling us that the dualist's soul tells the brain to think! The dualist’s brain does not do the thinking!

DAVID: The soul uses the brain as its machine to create thought. The brain cannot think on its own.

dhw: The dualist’s brain cannot think. It is the materialist’s brain that thinks “on its own”. (See above.) And the dualist’s brain is not a machine that creates thought. It is a machine that provides information for the dualist’s soul to think about, and provides material expression for the soul’s immaterial thoughts. Why do keep trying to twist this simple description into tortuous ambiguities?

Because you misinterpret my theories about soul and brain.


dhw: What I said is we know the brain changes thought, and thought changes the brain, so we can’t know from this whether the source of thought/ consciousness is soul or brain.

dhw: The dualist's brain doesn’t think. Full stop. Your comment totally misses the point I am making here, which is that the two-way process makes it impossible to judge whether the source of consciousness is a soul or the brain.

DAVID: A sick brain will makes the reasonable thoughts by the soul sick thoughts. The soul has no control about the end product!!! Consciousness is beside the point. we don't know what makes it arise. Let's just stick to what runs the brain.

dhw: We don’t know what runs the brain! That is why we have the clash between dualism and materialism! The dualist’s soul is supposed to run the brain – not the other way round. But if you claim that the immaterial, controlling soul is governed by the sick brain, there is really no point in having a soul at all. That is why materialists point to examples of sick thoughts (whether permanent [psychopaths] or temporary [epileptics]) as evidence that it is the brain that does the thinking – hence the fact that such wrong-doers are deemed not to have free will and therefore not to be responsible for their crimes.

A mentally ill patient cannot control his sick thoughts even as his self/soul wishes to. I will stick to claiming that I/soul run my brain.


dhw: Whenever you have the brain thinking, you are supporting materialism. (I'd better repeat that I remain neutral on the subject).

DAVID: One last time, the soul creates thought using the brain networks, but in life the soul cannot think without a functional brain.

dhw: First part spot on, at last! But the second part excludes one of the few pieces of evidence we have for the very existence of a soul – namely, NDEs, during which the brain is not functional but the patient is still alive. Without such cases (plus other psychic experiences), the argument for dualism would remain pretty thin. But I hope our discussion will now put an end to all the obfuscations with which you keep implying or explicitly stating that the dualist’s brain thinks.

We both recognize NDE's. The 'first part' is what I have stated for weeks.


Under “Brain mental capacity

QUOTE: “'To ‘warm up’, she requested a large number of cube root problems, that is, extracting the cube roots of large numbers, mostly in the millions, hundreds of millions, and trillions. The average time Devi took for extracting all of these cube roots was just six seconds, with a range of two to 10 seconds.'

DAVID: A form of highly functional autism. IQ can be raised by proper education to a degree, but this state is from birth and a gift.

dhw: Amazing and wonderful. These calculations would normally require hours of conscious thought and analysis, and I’m sure materialists would agree with you that such astonishing mental feats are to be directly attributed to the brain.

We are born with the quality and abilities our brain gives us for the soul to use.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Saturday, December 19, 2020, 08:27 (1435 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: The dualist’s soul does not “receive incorrect analytic thought”. I’m glad you now see that your bolded statement above is totally wrong.

DAVID: The soul forms thoughts using the brain, a great difference.

dhw: It’s an enormous difference. So please stop telling us that the dualist's soul tells the brain to think! The dualist’s brain does not do the thinking!

DAVID: The soul uses the brain as its machine to create thought. The brain cannot think on its own.

dhw: The dualist’s brain cannot think. It is the materialist’s brain that thinks “on its own”. […] And the dualist’s brain is not a machine that creates thought. It is a machine that provides information for the dualist’s soul to think about, and provides material expression for the soul’s immaterial thoughts. Why do keep trying to twist this simple description into tortuous ambiguities?

DAVID: Because you misinterpret my theories about soul and brain.

It’s very hard to make sense of your theories when at one moment you agree that the brain does not think, and the next moment you tell us that the soul drives the brain to think, or the soul receives incorrect analytic thought from the brain.

DAVID: A sick brain will makes the reasonable thoughts by the soul sick thoughts. The soul has no control about the end product!!!

dhw: […] if you claim that the immaterial, controlling soul is governed by the sick brain, there is really no point in having a soul at all. That is why materialists point to examples of sick thoughts (whether permanent [psychopaths] or temporary [epileptics]) as evidence that it is the brain that does the thinking – hence the fact that such wrong-doers are deemed not to have free will and therefore not to be responsible for their crimes.

DAVID: A mentally ill patient cannot control his sick thoughts even as his self/soul wishes to. I will stick to claiming that I/soul run my brain.

In the comment I replied to, you have the soul thinking reasonable thoughts, but the sick brain somehow changes them and the reasonable soul can’t do anything about it. How can you then argue that the soul runs the brain, if its reasonable thoughts are converted into sick thoughts? You have never responded to the point that if the soul does all the thinking, and analyses the information given to it by the brain, it should be able to detect false information whether the brain is sick or not. There is no way round the fact that if a sick brain produces sick thoughts, as you state elsewhere, this is powerful evidence that the brain is the source of thought – the opposite of what you rightly say is the dualist’s view that the soul runs the brain.

From PART TWO:
DAVID: You have twisted your theorizing into knots. A mentally ill patient cannot control his weird view of the world. HIS SOUL CANNOT REJECT THE STRANGE THOUGHTS THAT APPEAR DESPITE ANY ATTEMPT THE SOUL MIGHT TRY. The soul/self can only use the brain it has. Sick brain produces only sick thoughts for the soul driving it.

The knotty twists are entirely yours. Of course the mentally ill patient has lost control, but what is the source of the strange thoughts that “appear”? This ties in with your statement that the soul receives incorrect analytic thought from the brain, and contradicts your agreement that the brain does not think! And how can the soul be said to drive the brain when you keep insisting that it is the sick brain that drives the soul – which apparently tries but fails to reject the thoughts passed on by the brain? See above for the obvious conclusion, beginning “There is no way round…”

DAVID: One last time, the soul creates thought using the brain networks, but in life the soul cannot think without a functional brain.

dhw: First part spot on, at last! But the second part excludes one of the few pieces of evidence we have for the very existence of a soul – namely, NDEs, during which the brain is not functional but the patient is still alive. […] But I hope our discussion will now put an end to all the obfuscations with which you keep implying or explicitly stating that the dualist’s brain thinks.

DAVID: We both recognize NDE's. The 'first part' is what I have stated for weeks.

Yes you have, but then for weeks you have gone on to state that the soul drives the brain to think etc. as per the various quotes I keep repeating. I’m glad to have your definitive agreement that the brain does not think. It will save a lot of unnecessary debate. It would also be useful if you would agree specifically to my proposal that the soul uses the brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts.

Under “Brain mental capacity
dhw: These calculations would normally require hours of conscious thought and analysis, and I’m sure materialists would agree with you that such astonishing mental feats are to be directly attributed to the brain.

DAVID: We are born with the quality and abilities our brain gives us for the soul to use.

But you have labelled this thread “Brain mental capacity”, and the child’s ability to work out the solutions to complex immaterial maths problems surely belongs to the kind of abstract reasoning you and Egnor are so keen to attribute to the soul. If the ability to solve such problems depends on the brain, what function does the soul perform in the activity?

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 19, 2020, 16:05 (1435 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: A mentally ill patient cannot control his sick thoughts even as his self/soul wishes to. I will stick to claiming that I/soul run my brain.

dhw: In the comment I replied to, you have the soul thinking reasonable thoughts, but the sick brain somehow changes them and the reasonable soul can’t do anything about it. How can you then argue that the soul runs the brain, if its reasonable thoughts are converted into sick thoughts? You have never responded to the point that if the soul does all the thinking, and analyses the information given to it by the brain, it should be able to detect false information whether the brain is sick or not.

What you cannot seem to absorb is the living relationship we are discussing. The soul must think with the type of brain it is given. A soul trying to produce rational thought with a sick brain will not produce rational thought. The brain will distort it, and the soul will have to accept the output. In patients with mild mental illness, I have seen some who recognize their thinking is not correct. In more severely ill patients they do not.

dhw: There is no way round the fact that if a sick brain produces sick thoughts, as you state elsewhere, this is powerful evidence that the brain is the source of thought – the opposite of what you rightly say is the dualist’s view that the soul runs the brain.

It is the source of thought output. The soul is trapped into accepting the results. I think of this as my living self is a representation of my living soul. Obviously I have to produce thought with the brain I have. My brain does not produce thought until I make it think. I drive my brain to produce thought that I wish to produce..


From PART TWO:
DAVID: You have twisted your theorizing into knots. A mentally ill patient cannot control his weird view of the world. HIS SOUL CANNOT REJECT THE STRANGE THOUGHTS THAT APPEAR DESPITE ANY ATTEMPT THE SOUL MIGHT TRY. The soul/self can only use the brain it has. Sick brain produces only sick thoughts for the soul driving it.

dhw: And how can the soul be said to drive the brain when you keep insisting that it is the sick brain that drives the soul – which apparently tries but fails to reject the thoughts passed on by the brain?

The sick brain never drives the soul!! The soul must accept the sick output a sick brain produces when the soul tries to think using the brain.


DAVID: One last time, the soul creates thought using the brain networks, but in life the soul cannot think without a functional brain.

dhw: First part spot on, at last! But the second part excludes one of the few pieces of evidence we have for the very existence of a soul – namely, NDEs, during which the brain is not functional but the patient is still alive. […] But I hope our discussion will now put an end to all the obfuscations with which you keep implying or explicitly stating that the dualist’s brain thinks.

DAVID: We both recognize NDE's. The 'first part' is what I have stated for weeks.

dhw: Yes you have, but then for weeks you have gone on to state that the soul drives the brain to think etc. as per the various quotes I keep repeating. I’m glad to have your definitive agreement that the brain does not think. It will save a lot of unnecessary debate. It would also be useful if you would agree specifically to my proposal that the soul uses the brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts.

The bold is agreed to in its limited form.


Under “Brain mental capacity
dhw: These calculations would normally require hours of conscious thought and analysis, and I’m sure materialists would agree with you that such astonishing mental feats are to be directly attributed to the brain.

DAVID: We are born with the quality and abilities our brain gives us for the soul to use.

dhw: But you have labelled this thread “Brain mental capacity”, and the child’s ability to work out the solutions to complex immaterial maths problems surely belongs to the kind of abstract reasoning you and Egnor are so keen to attribute to the soul. If the ability to solve such problems depends on the brain, what function does the soul perform in the activity?

It drives the brain to produce the prodigious activity is is capable of performing. We only can work with the type of brain we are given. Very simple or enormously capable.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Sunday, December 20, 2020, 09:39 (1434 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: A mentally ill patient cannot control his sick thoughts even as his self/soul wishes to. I will stick to claiming that I/soul run my brain.

I wish you would!

dhw: In the comment I replied to, you have the soul thinking reasonable thoughts, but the sick brain somehow changes them and the reasonable soul can’t do anything about it. How can you then argue that the soul runs the brain, if its reasonable thoughts are converted into sick thoughts? bbYou have never responded to the point that if the soul does all the thinking, and analyses the information given to it by the brain, it should be able to detect false information whether the brain is sick or not.bb

DAVID: What you cannot seem to absorb is the living relationship we are discussing. The soul must think with the type of brain it is given. A soul trying to produce rational thought with a sick brain will not produce rational thought. The brain will distort it, and the soul will have to accept the output.

And materialists will say that a sick brain will not produce rational thought. No need for a “soul”. The “living relationship” we are discussing is that of the dualist’s immaterial thinking soul which uses the material non-thinking brain to gather information which it (the brain) then processes, analyses etc. before reaching a decision to which the non-thinking brain then gives material expression. You have agreed to this. Your answer to my bold appears to be that the soul actually knows the information is false, but because the brain is sick….what happens? It refuses to give material expression to the soul’s thought, and insists on committing murder?

DAVID: In patients with mild mental illness, I have seen some who recognize their thinking is not correct. In more severely ill patients they do not.

What sort of illness are you talking about? It is perfectly logical to assume that if the brain is the source of thought, a mild illness of the brain will not produce as many ill effects as a major illness. But the materialist question would be why an illness of the material brain should stop an immaterial “soul” from thinking normally. Your earlier comment now seems to imply that it DOES think normally, but it has lost control of the brain which has its own sick thoughts. But the dualist’s brain does not think! Only the soul thinks! That is why such diseases support the case for materialism.

DAVID: It [the soul] is the source of thought output. The soul is trapped into accepting the results. I think of this as my living self is a representation of my living soul. Obviously I have to produce thought with the brain I have. My brain does not produce thought until I make it think. I drive my brain to produce thought that I wish to produce.

But in sickness apparently your brain thinks thoughts which your soul does NOT want it to think. So there you go again: there is a battle between the thinking soul and the thinking brain, and the brain wins. You might just as well not have a soul. Once more: that is why materialists regard psychopaths, druggies, alcoholics etc. as providing solid evidence that the brain is the source of thought.

dhw: And how can the soul be said to drive the brain when you keep insisting that it is the sick brain that drives the soul – which apparently tries but fails to reject the thoughts passed on by the brain?

DAVID: The sick brain never drives the soul!! The soul must accept the sick output a sick brain produces when the soul tries to think using the brain.

What “output”? The dualist’s brain does not produce thought. That is the function of the soul.

dhw: It will save a lot of unnecessary debate. It would also be useful if you would agree specifically to my proposal that the soul uses the brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts.

DAVID: The bold is agreed to in its limited form.

Why “in its limited form”? Either it is or it isn’t the dualist’s view of the relationship. The brain does not do the thinking. And therefore the soul should be capable of distinguishing between true and false information, whether the brain is sick or not.

Brain mental capacity
dhw: …you have labelled this thread “Brain mental capacity”, and the child’s ability to work out the solutions to complex immaterial maths problems surely belongs to the kind of abstract reasoning you and Egnor are so keen to attribute to the soul. If the ability to solve such problems depends on the brain, what function does the soul perform in the activity?

DAVID: It drives the brain to produce the prodigious activity is is capable of performing. We only can work with the type of brain we are given. Very simple or enormously capable.

Is it the dualist’s brain or the soul that solves the equations? If you wish to argue that our capabilities are decided by the type of brain we have (and I’m not opposing the argument), you will be warmly welcomed by materialists and determinists.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Sunday, December 20, 2020, 21:03 (1434 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: A mentally ill patient cannot control his sick thoughts even as his self/soul wishes to. I will stick to claiming that I/soul run my brain.

dhw: In the comment I replied to, you have the soul thinking reasonable thoughts, but the sick brain somehow changes them and the reasonable soul can’t do anything about it. How can you then argue that the soul runs the brain, if its reasonable thoughts are converted into sick thoughts? bbYou have never responded to the point that if the soul does all the thinking, and analyses the information given to it by the brain, it should be able to detect false information whether the brain is sick or not.bb

This is your constant difference from my view. In my theory of dualism the soul is never separate from the brain and cannot judge what the brain is doing properly or improperly


DAVID: What you cannot seem to absorb is the living relationship we are discussing. The soul must think with the type of brain it is given. A soul trying to produce rational thought with a sick brain will not produce rational thought. The brain will distort it, and the soul will have to accept the output.

dhw: The “living relationship” we are discussing is that of the dualist’s immaterial thinking soul which uses the material non-thinking brain to gather information which it (the brain) then processes, analyses etc. before reaching a decision to which the non-thinking brain then gives material expression. You have agreed to this. Your answer to my bold appears to be that the soul actually knows the information is false, but because the brain is sick….what happens? It refuses to give material expression to the soul’s thought, and insists on committing murder?

The soul cannot know the information or thought is false if it is forced to think with brain circuits as I demand in my approach. To repeat, I/self/soul can only think with the brain I am given to use..


DAVID: In patients with mild mental illness, I have seen some who recognize their thinking is not correct. In more severely ill patients they do not.

dhw: But the dualist’s brain does not think! Only the soul thinks! That is why such diseases support the case for materialism.

In my view the soul is not detached from the brain, as that comment implies.


DAVID: It [the soul] is the source of thought output. The soul is trapped into accepting the results. I think of this as my living self is a representation of my living soul. Obviously I have to produce thought with the brain I have. My brain does not produce thought until I make it think. I drive my brain to produce thought that I wish to produce.

dhw: But in sickness apparently your brain thinks thoughts which your soul does NOT want it to think. So there you go again: there is a battle between the thinking soul and the thinking brain, and the brain wins.

Exactly. It is not a battle. The soul is forced to use a sick brain.


DAVID: The sick brain never drives the soul!! The soul must accept the sick output a sick brain produces when the soul tries to think using the brain.

dhw: What “output”? The dualist’s brain does not produce thought. That is the function of the soul.

Only by using the brain's networks to create thought.


dhw: It will save a lot of unnecessary debate. It would also be useful if you would agree specifically to my proposal that the soul uses the brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts.

DAVID: The bold is agreed to in its limited form.

dhw: Why “in its limited form”? Either it is or it isn’t the dualist’s view of the relationship. The brain does not do the thinking. And therefore the soul should be capable of distinguishing between true and false information, whether the brain is sick or not.

Exactly where we completely differ. My self (soul) is completely attached to my brain and must use my brain circuits to form thought. Thus sick brain, sick thoughts.


Brain mental capacity
dhw: …you have labelled this thread “Brain mental capacity”, and the child’s ability to work out the solutions to complex immaterial maths problems surely belongs to the kind of abstract reasoning you and Egnor are so keen to attribute to the soul. If the ability to solve such problems depends on the brain, what function does the soul perform in the activity?

DAVID: It drives the brain to produce the prodigious activity is is capable of performing. We only can work with the type of brain we are given. Very simple or enormously capable.

dhw: Is it the dualist’s brain or the soul that solves the equations?

Same wrong approach. My dualism is that I/myself/soul must use the brain's circuits to solve equations. The brain can never solve the equations all by itself. You previously conceived form of dualism is never mine. We totally differ. The gulf is enormous

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE (More)

by David Turell @, Sunday, December 20, 2020, 21:26 (1434 days ago) @ David Turell

It appears to me you conceive of a separate soul which dictates thoughts to the brain which then expresses them. That is never my view. I/myself/living soul is intricately attached to my living brain and can only create concepts, thoughts, or ideas by directly using the brain circuits to actually create those immaterial thoughts. Once created, the brain expresses them to me in silent thought, writing, speaking or typing. The soul cannot recognize a sick brain because the soul is using a sick brain to form thoughts with and as a result the soul is forced to accept those sick thoughts as OK. The soul with a sick brain cannot recognize its thoughts are distorted.

We have gone round and round with this discussion about dualism for years, and I have told you constantly our views of dualism are totally different. You envision an immaterial soul that dictates thoughts to a material brain, and I view the self/soul as having to use the circuits of the brain to create/form/develop thoughts. That is exactly what my body tells me is happening, and therefore I don't think your separation concept is valid and does not exist as presented by the facts we know. Therefore sick brain, sick thoughts and the self/soul cannot change it, stop it, or even recognize the disparities.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE (More)

by dhw, Monday, December 21, 2020, 12:21 (1433 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: We have gone round and round with this discussion about dualism for years, and I have told you constantly our views of dualism are totally different. You envision an immaterial soul that dictates thoughts to a material brain, and I view the self/soul as having to use the circuits of the brain to create/form/develop thoughts.

There is no difference at all between us. We agree completely that the soul uses the brain to develop its thoughts. You simply keep on and on glossing over the nature of the use. So yet again: the dualist’s immaterial soul resides within the material brain, is the thinking part of the self, uses the brain to collect information, analyses it, and then “dictates” its thoughts to the brain so that the brain can mobilize its material means of giving material expression to those thoughts. None of this contradicts anything in your statement above.

DAVID: That is exactly what my body tells me is happening, and therefore I don't think your separation concept is valid and does not exist as presented by the facts we know. Therefore sick brain, sick thoughts and the self/soul cannot change it, stop it, or even recognize the disparities.

There is no separation concept. They live and work together, performing their different functions. Your “therefore” is totally unconnected with the rest of the argument. Where do the sick thoughts come from, if they don’t come from the soul? Back we go to your statement that the soul “receives incorrect analytic thought”. How can the "analyzer" receive the analysis? From what? It can only come from the brain! But when I pointed out the materialistic implications (i.e. the brain does the thinking), you cried: “No, no, no!!! The soul uses the brain’s networks to do the analysis. The soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool.” If the brain is only the tool, the dualist’s soul should be able to recognize the falseness of the information given to it by the dualist’s sick brain, which does not formulate any thoughts. All your twisting and turning is an effort to counter the fact that brain disease, epileptic fits, drunkenness, drug addiction all provide evidence for materialism: as you so aptly put it yourself: “sick brain can only produce sick thoughts”.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE (More)

by David Turell @, Monday, December 21, 2020, 18:34 (1433 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: We have gone round and round with this discussion about dualism for years, and I have told you constantly our views of dualism are totally different. You envision an immaterial soul that dictates thoughts to a material brain, and I view the self/soul as having to use the circuits of the brain to create/form/develop thoughts.

dhw: There is no difference at all between us. We agree completely that the soul uses the brain to develop its thoughts. You simply keep on and on glossing over the nature of the use. So yet again: the dualist’s immaterial soul resides within the material brain, is the thinking part of the self, uses the brain to collect information, analyses it, and then “dictates” its thoughts to the brain so that the brain can mobilize its material means of giving material expression to those thoughts. None of this contradicts anything in your statement above.

The bold is totally opposite to my theory. The soul cannot dictate to the brain. The soul can only form thought by entering the brain's circuits and using them to FORM its thoughts. The brain then broadcasts them as words in the mind, as typed, spoken, or handwritten. This is our vast difference and how Egnor sees it.


DAVID: That is exactly what my body tells me is happening, and therefore I don't think your separation concept is valid and does not exist as presented by the facts we know. Therefore sick brain, sick thoughts and the self/soul cannot change it, stop it, or even recognize the disparities.

dhw: There is no separation concept. They live and work together, performing their different functions. Your “therefore” is totally unconnected with the rest of the argument. Where do the sick thoughts come from, if they don’t come from the soul? Back we go to your statement that the soul “receives incorrect analytic thought”. How can the "analyzer" receive the analysis? From what? It can only come from the brain! But when I pointed out the materialistic implications (i.e. the brain does the thinking), you cried: “No, no, no!!! The soul uses the brain’s networks to do the analysis. The soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool.”[/color] If the brain is only the tool, the dualist’s soul should be able to recognize the falseness of the information given to it by the dualist’s sick brain, which does not formulate any thoughts.

Again totally disconnecting the soul from using the brain's circuits to form thought. Totally wrong. You keep ignoring the fact that the soul, in using the circuits produces analysis and thought only through their use. But if they are sick the soul can only produce sick thought and will not realize it. The colored part is is totally misinterpreted by your initial concepts which get in the way of what Egnor and I present. The soul, using the brain as a tool for thought can only accept what the tool gives it. Using sick circuits gives the soul sick results as sick thoughts, and the soul in using the brain circuits to analyze the resulting thoughts, the soul will not recognize the wrong results from its attempts to think. Use psychopath again to understand this. The psychopath has a sick brain and cannot understand why we all think him wrong. What is your soul? It is your living essence using your brain to form thought, write children's book and plays, an ability your particular brain offers you to use. Your brain is so plastic you may have manipulated it to do that work for you, but the math savant child was given that brain at birth. You can only work with the currently existing brain. The criminal insanity defense accepts my position in court. The thought in green at the end of your statement removes that defense. The whole discussion in this paragraph shows why.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Monday, December 21, 2020, 12:11 (1433 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: You have never responded to the point that if the soul does all the thinking, and analyses the information given to it by the brain, it should be able to detect false information whether the brain is sick or not.

DAVID: This is your constant difference from my view. In my theory of dualism the soul is never separate from the brain and cannot judge what the brain is doing properly or improperly.

You continue to repeat the false assumption that my concept of dualism is that the soul is separate from the brain. This is summed up in your second post: “It appears to me you conceive of a separate soul which dictates thoughts to the brain which then expresses them.” My concept of dualism is that the immaterial “soul” resides within the material brain and uses the brain to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts. Only when the body dies does the soul separate itself from the brain. It could hardly be more straightforward.

dhw: Your answer to my bold appears to be that the soul actually knows the information is false, but because the brain is sick….what happens? It refuses to give material expression to the soul’s thought, and insists on committing murder?

DAVID: The soul cannot know the information or thought is false if it is forced to think with brain circuits as I demand in my approach. To repeat, I/self/soul can only think with the brain I am given to use.

Once again you muddy the waters by refusing to acknowledge what the soul uses the brain for. The soul thinks with brain circuits, whether the brain is sick or not. See above for what it uses the brain circuits for. If it recognizes false information when the brain is not sick, it should still do so when the brain is sick. You keep agreeing with the concept summarized above, then glossing over the whole process, and now repeating a silly straw man “separation” issue of your own making.

DAVID: In patients with mild mental illness, I have seen some who recognize their thinking is not correct. In more severely ill patients they do not.

dhw: But the dualist’s brain does not think! Only the soul thinks! That is why such diseases support the case for materialism.

DAVID: In my view the soul is not detached from the brain, as that comment implies.

It implies no such thing. See above.

DAVID: My self (soul) is completely attached to my brain and must use my brain circuits to form thought. Thus sick brain, sick thoughts.

And again you gloss over what the soul uses the brain for. Sick brain, sick thoughts = materialism.

Brain mental capacity
dhw: …you have labelled this thread “Brain mental capacity”, and the child’s ability to work out the solutions to complex immaterial maths problems surely belongs to the kind of abstract reasoning you and Egnor are so keen to attribute to the soul. If the ability to solve such problems depends on the brain, what function does the soul perform in the activity? […] Is it the dualist’s brain or the soul that solves the equations?

DAVID: Same wrong approach. My dualism is that I/myself/soul must use the brain's circuits to solve equations. The brain can never solve the equations all by itself. You previously conceived form of dualism is never mine. We totally differ. The gulf is enormous

It is only enormous because you continually gloss over the question of what the dualist’s soul uses the brain for. Taking this example: the brain provides the soul with the mathematical problem (= the information) presented to it. The soul analyses the information and then instructs the brain to use the voice in order to tell everyone the answer it has worked out. Remember your own words: “The soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool.” Yes or no?

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Monday, December 21, 2020, 15:48 (1433 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: The soul cannot know the information or thought is false if it is forced to think with brain circuits as I demand in my approach. To repeat, I/self/soul can only think with the brain I am given to use.

dhw: Once again you muddy the waters by refusing to acknowledge what the soul uses the brain for. The soul thinks with brain circuits, whether the brain is sick or not. See above for what it uses the brain circuits for. If it recognizes false information when the brain is not sick, it should still do so when the brain is sick.

A repeat of your total muddle. Correct in bold. By after that, In my view, taken from life's experience, the soul must use the brains' networks to form an thought. Sick networks can only create sick thinking. A psychopath's soul doesn't know it is psychopathic.

DAVID: My self (soul) is completely attached to my brain and must use my brain circuits to form thought. Thus sick brain, sick thoughts.

dhw: And again you gloss over what the soul uses the brain for. Sick brain, sick thoughts = materialism.

Total misunderstanding. My theory is pure dualism. Repeat: my soul can only think by using brain networks to actually form any thought. If the networks are sick the thoughts will be distorted and the soul cannot recognize it because it uses those same circuits for all of its observations. You separate the soul by saying it can stand aside and observe that the brain is sick. Ask the psychopath!!! The soul is me, myself, a living soul. That essence of me according to NDE's may well be immortal. The brain I am given is the one I must use for thinking.


Brain mental capacity
dhw: …you have labelled this thread “Brain mental capacity”, and the child’s ability to work out the solutions to complex immaterial maths problems surely belongs to the kind of abstract reasoning you and Egnor are so keen to attribute to the soul. If the ability to solve such problems depends on the brain, what function does the soul perform in the activity? […] Is it the dualist’s brain or the soul that solves the equations?

DAVID: Same wrong approach. My dualism is that I/myself/soul must use the brain's circuits to solve equations. The brain can never solve the equations all by itself. You previously conceived form of dualism is never mine. We totally differ. The gulf is enormous

dhw: It is only enormous because you continually gloss over the question of what the dualist’s soul uses the brain for.

It must use the circuits to form any thought, and if the brain is sick the thoughts will be sick..

dhw: Taking this example: the brain provides the soul with the mathematical problem (= the information) presented to it. The soul analyses the information and then instructs the brain to use the voice in order to tell everyone the answer it has worked out. Remember your own words: “The soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool.” Yes or no?

Not yes or no. See above. The soul forms analytic thought using the brain networks to create that analysis. The child's amazing networks allowed that degree of solution.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Tuesday, December 22, 2020, 11:14 (1432 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: To repeat, I/self/soul can only think with the brain I am given to use.

dhw: Once again you muddy the waters by refusing to acknowledge what the soul uses the brain for. The soul thinks with brain circuits, whether the brain is sick or not. […]. If it recognizes false information when the brain is not sick, it should still do so when the brain is sick.

DAVID: A repeat of your total muddle. Correct in bold. By after that, In my view, taken from life's experience, the soul must use the brains' networks to form an thought. Sick networks can only create sick thinking. A psychopath's soul doesn't know it is psychopathic.

I am not disputing that the soul must use the brain’s networks to form a thought! But the brain supplies the information, and the soul thinks about it! The networks do not create thought, whether sick or "normal".Your refusal to acknowledge these different functions is what causes your “total muddle”! The fact that a psychopath has a diseased brain and doesn’t know he is a psychopath is evidence that the brain is the source of thought. The soul has no role to play!

DAVID: My theory is pure dualism. Repeat: my soul can only think by using brain networks to actually form any thought.

Yes.

DAVID: If the networks are sick the thoughts will be distorted and the soul cannot recognize it because it uses those same circuits for all of its observations.

If the soul is capable of distinguishing true from false, then it should make no difference whether the false comes from a sick or a healthy brain, because the dualist’s brain does not analyse the information! The key to your own “total misunderstanding” is your earlier statement that the soul “RECEIVES incorrect analytic thought”. The brain does not analyse. That is the function of the soul. If the soul RECEIVES a false analysis, then of course the thoughts will be false! The soul is then irrelevant. The sick brain has done the whole job: provide information, analyse it, and take the decision.

DAVID: You separate the soul by saying it can stand aside and observe that the brain is sick. […]

Belief that the soul is responsible for thought does not “separate” it from the brain! But just like different parts of the brain, it has its own function – namely, to do the thinking, while the brain does the information-gathering and the material implementation. In both theories (dualism and materialism), the source has to be part of the whole! The rest of your two posts repeats the same points, so I will try to condense.

dhw: Taking this example: the brain provides the soul with the mathematical problem (= the information) presented to it. The soul analyses the information and then instructs the brain to use the voice in order to tell everyone the answer it has worked out. Remember your own words: “The soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool.” Yes or no?

DAVID: Not yes or no. See above. The soul forms analytic thought using the brain networks to create that analysis. The child's amazing networks allowed that degree of solution.

More fudge. Once again you gloss over what the soul uses the brain for (information and material expression). The analysis of the information is done by the soul, not by the networks. But if the child was born with these “amazing networks”, it suggests that the amazing thought process of analysing the information and reaching a conclusion springs from the networks.

dhw: […] yet again: the dualist’s immaterial soul resides within the material brain, is the thinking part of the self, uses the brain to collect information, analyses it, and then “dictates” its thoughts to the brain so that the brain can mobilize its material means of giving material expression to those thoughts. None of this contradicts anything in your statement above.

DAVID: The bold is totally opposite to my theory. The soul cannot dictate to the brain. The soul can only form thought by entering the brain's circuits and using them to FORM its thoughts. The brain then broadcasts them as words in the mind, as typed, spoken, or handwritten. This is our vast difference and how Egnor sees it.

There is no difference whatsoever, except that again you leave out the functions: here, you have the brain “broadcasting”, but you omit the soul’s instruction to the brain to “broadcast”, i.e. type, speak or write the soul’s decision. That is the “dictation”.

DAVID: The criminal insanity defense accepts my position in court.

No it doesn’t. The criminal insanity defense argues that the accused has a mental disease – temporary (e.g. the influence of drugs or alcohol) or permanent (our psychopath). The court does not say the brain provided the soul with false results, and does not discuss whether the source of thought is a soul or the brain. However, the very fact that brain abnormalities have been found in psychopaths, and that drugs and alcohol interfere with the brain’s networks and hence the nature of the person’s thoughts, offers strong support to the materialist view that the brain is the source of thought.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 22, 2020, 18:18 (1432 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I am not disputing that the soul must use the brain’s networks to form a thought! But the brain supplies the information, and the soul thinks about it!

Only by using the brain's networks to think and analyze the info.

dhw: The networks do not create thought, whether sick or "normal".

Agreed. Only if the soul uses them to create thought.

DAVID: My theory is pure dualism. Repeat: my soul can only think by using brain networks to actually form any thought.

Yes.

DAVID: If the networks are sick the thoughts will be distorted and the soul cannot recognize it because it uses those same circuits for all of its observations.

dhw: If the soul is capable of distinguishing true from false, then it should make no difference whether the false comes from a sick or a healthy brain, because the dualist’s brain does not analyse the information!

The soul cannot distinguish true from false if the brain is sick, as it must use the sick brain networks to make any analysis.

DAVID: You separate the soul by saying it can stand aside and observe that the brain is sick. […]

dhw: Belief that the soul is responsible for thought does not “separate” it from the brain! But just like different parts of the brain, it has its own function – namely, to do the thinking,

I will not accept this theory in bold. The soul can think only by forming thoughts actively using the brain's networks to create the thought. My living soul is myself, and I do this.

DAVID: Not yes or no. See above. The soul forms analytic thought using the brain networks to create that analysis. The child's amazing networks allowed that degree of solution.

dhw: More fudge. Once again you gloss over what the soul uses the brain for (information and material expression). The analysis of the information is done by the soul, not by the networks.

Total disagreement. The soul can only analyze using the networks.


dhw: There is no difference whatsoever, except that again you leave out the functions: here, you have the brain “broadcasting”, but you omit the soul’s instruction to the brain to “broadcast”, i.e. type, speak or write the soul’s decision. That is the “dictation”.

I agree, after the soul creates thought by using the brain's networks, it has the brain broadcast the thought in as many ways as it wishes.


DAVID: The criminal insanity defense accepts my position in court.

dhw: No it doesn’t. The criminal insanity defense argues that the accused has a mental disease – temporary (e.g. the influence of drugs or alcohol) or permanent (our psychopath). The court does not say the brain provided the soul with false results, and does not discuss whether the source of thought is a soul or the brain. However, the very fact that brain abnormalities have been found in psychopaths, and that drugs and alcohol interfere with the brain’s networks and hence the nature of the person’s thoughts, offers strong support to the materialist view that the brain is the source of thought.

The source of thought the soul creates is by using the brain's networks to actually form the thought. The psychopath's self/soul doesn't have any way of knowing right from wrong because his brain is permanently incapable of that judgement. We institutionalize, not execute, as as result.

Illness and drugs can always change the functions of the material brain. A depressed soul can be helped by using mitigating drugs to change its brain, but that is because the soul can now form normal thought with a normalized brain. The material brain cannot think without the soul using it to form thought, not dictating thought to the brain as your theory insists. Our approaches are totally different. I use my experience in my own body as a starting point. I/myself/my essence/living soul can only think by using my brain to create thought. I create the thought using my brain to form the thought. I know my brain is material, and no more, so your bold can be recognized as true, but only if it is recognized the soul used the brain's networks to form those thoughts that appear and be broadcast. Pure dualism during life with a normally functional brain.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Wednesday, December 23, 2020, 11:30 (1431 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I am not disputing that the soul must use the brain’s networks to form a thought! But the brain supplies the information, and the soul thinks about it!

DAVID: Only by using the brain's networks to think and analyze the info.

This is the constant theme of your posts, and you constantly gloss over what the dualist’s thinking, analysing soul uses the brain for! When I point out that it uses the brain to gather information and to give its thoughts material expression, you agree – and then you go back to this nebulous formula.

dhw: The networks do not create thought, whether sick or "normal".

DAVID: Agreed. Only if the soul uses them to create thought.

You see, you agree. The dualist’s soul uses the brain to provide the information, and the dualist’s soul does the thinking and the analysing to create its thoughts.

dhw: If the soul is capable of distinguishing true from false, then it should make no difference whether the false comes from a sick or a healthy brain, because the dualist’s brain does not analyse the information!

DAVID: The soul cannot distinguish true from false if the brain is sick, as it must use the sick brain networks to make any analysis.

And this is how you ignore what you have agreed to. The dualist’s soul uses the brain, whether sick or normal, to gather information – whether true or false - and then it does the analysing.

dhw: Belief that the soul is responsible for thought does not “separate” it from the brain! But just like different parts of the brain, it has its own function – namely, to do the thinking.

DAVID: I will not accept this theory in bold. The soul can think only by forming thoughts actively using the brain's networks to create the thought. My living soul is myself, and I do this.

WHAT DOES THE THINKING SOUL USE THE BRAIN FOR, IN ADDITION TO INFORMATION GATHERING AND MATERIAL EXPRESSION?

DAVID: The soul can only analyze using the networks.

WHAT DOES THE ANALYSING SOUL USE THE BRAIN FOR, IN ADDITION TO INFORMATION GATHERING AND MATERIAL EXPRESSION?

dhw: There is no difference whatsoever, except that again you leave out the functions: here, you have the brain “broadcasting”, but you omit the soul’s instruction to the brain to “broadcast”, i.e. type, speak or write the soul’s decision. That is the “dictation”.

DAVID: I agree, after the soul creates thought by using the brain's networks, it has the brain broadcast the thought in as many ways as it wishes.

Thank you – that is the second function of the dualist's brain: to give material expression to the soul’s thoughts. The first is to provide the soul with information to think about and analyse.

dhw: […] the very fact that brain abnormalities have been found in psychopaths, and that drugs and alcohol interfere with the brain’s networks and hence the nature of the person’s thoughts, offers strong support to the materialist view that the brain is the source of thought.

DAVID: The source of thought the soul creates is by using the brain's networks to actually form the thought. The psychopath's self/soul doesn't have any way of knowing right from wrong because his brain is permanently incapable of that judgement. We institutionalize, not execute, as a result.

And there you have the result of your refusal to consider what the soul uses the brain for. How can a dualist attribute judgement of right and wrong to the brain? That is the task of the thinking, analysing, decision-making, free-will soul! Once again, the psychopath provides an impeccable example to illustrate the case for materialism!

DAVID: Illness and drugs can always change the functions of the material brain. A depressed soul can be helped by using mitigating drugs to change its brain, but that is because the soul can now form normal thought with a normalized brain. The material brain cannot think without the soul using it to form thought, not dictating thought to the brain as your theory insists.

You agreed above that the soul “dictates” its thoughts to the brain, so that the brain can give them material expression. The fact that illness and drugs can change the functions of the material brain, thereby causing abnormal thought, is evidence that the source of thought is the brain. The fact that mitigating drugs can cure the abnormalities in the brain, thereby restoring normal thought, is also evidence that the source of thought is the brain. The soul has no role whatsoever in the two processes. Even in your scenario, it is helpless if the brain is diseased. It may as well not exist, and indeed maybe it doesn’t.

The rest of your post repeats over and over again that the soul uses the brain, which we both accept as a fundamental feature of dualism. But until you take into account what the dualist’s thinking soul uses the dualist's non-thinking brain for, we will continue to go round in circles.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 23, 2020, 13:26 (1431 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I am not disputing that the soul must use the brain’s networks to form a thought! But the brain supplies the information, and the soul thinks about it!

DAVID: Only by using the brain's networks to think and analyze the info.

dhw: This is the constant theme of your posts, and you constantly gloss over what the dualist’s thinking, analysing soul uses the brain for! When I point out that it uses the brain to gather information and to give its thoughts material expression, you agree – and then you go back to this nebulous formula.

Not nebulous. Isn't your brain part of your body? You use it to think, by activating brain circuits,


dhw: If the soul is capable of distinguishing true from false, then it should make no difference whether the false comes from a sick or a healthy brain, because the dualist’s brain does not analyse the information!

DAVID: The soul cannot distinguish true from false if the brain is sick, as it must use the sick brain networks to make any analysis.

And this is how you ignore what you have agreed to. The dualist’s soul uses the brain, whether sick or normal, to gather information – whether true or false - and then it does the analysing.

No agreement.


dhw: Belief that the soul is responsible for thought does not “separate” it from the brain! But just like different parts of the brain, it has its own function – namely, to do the thinking.

DAVID: I will not accept this theory in bold. The soul can think only by forming thoughts actively using the brain's networks to create the thought. My living soul is myself, and I do this.

WHAT DOES THE THINKING SOUL USE THE BRAIN FOR, IN ADDITION TO INFORMATION GATHERING AND MATERIAL EXPRESSION?

Form its thoughts by activating brain networks which it must use.


DAVID: The source of thought the soul creates is by using the brain's networks to actually form the thought. The psychopath's self/soul doesn't have any way of knowing right from wrong because his brain is permanently incapable of that judgement. We institutionalize, not execute, as a result.

dhw: And there you have the result of your refusal to consider what the soul uses the brain for. How can a dualist attribute judgement of right and wrong to the brain? That is the task of the thinking, analysing, decision-making, free-will soul! Once again, the psychopath provides an impeccable example to illustrate the case for materialism!

Your total confusion is apparent. Do you form thoughts by activating you brains networks?


DAVID: Illness and drugs can always change the functions of the material brain. A depressed soul can be helped by using mitigating drugs to change its brain, but that is because the soul can now form normal thought with a normalized brain. The material brain cannot think without the soul using it to form thought, not dictating thought to the brain as your theory insists.

dhw: You agreed above that the soul “dictates” its thoughts to the brain, so that the brain can give them material expression. The fact that illness and drugs can change the functions of the material brain, thereby causing abnormal thought, is evidence that the source of thought is the brain. The fact that mitigating drugs can cure the abnormalities in the brain, thereby restoring normal thought, is also evidence that the source of thought is the brain. The soul has no role whatsoever in the two processes. Even in your scenario, it is helpless if the brain is diseased. It may as well not exist, and indeed maybe it doesn’t.

I remind you of my dualism approach: In life the soul formulates thoughts by activating and using the brain networks. Only in death the soul becomes able to formulated thoughts without a brain present.


dhw: The rest of your post repeats over and over again that the soul uses the brain, which we both accept as a fundamental feature of dualism. But until you take into account what the dualist’s thinking soul uses the dualist's non-thinking brain for, we will continue to go round in circles.

Why should I accept your twisted version? The basis is the question/observation, in life do you use your brain to form thought? You are your soul, but the way you argue raises the question, is your soul separate? Mine isn't

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Thursday, December 24, 2020, 10:09 (1430 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I am not disputing that the soul must use the brain’s networks to form a thought! But the brain supplies the information, and the soul thinks about it!

DAVID: Only by using the brain's networks to think and analyze the info.

dhw: This is the constant theme of your posts, and you constantly gloss over what the dualist’s thinking, analysing soul uses the brain for! When I point out that it uses the brain to gather information and to give its thoughts material expression, you agree – and then you go back to this nebulous formula.

DAVID: Not nebulous. Isn't your brain part of your body? You use it to think, by activating brain circuits…

And still you gloss over the different functions of the dualist’s soul and brain! Of course the thinking soul activates the brain by using information provided by the brain and by getting it to give material expression to its thoughts. What are you disagreeing with?

dhw: If the soul is capable of distinguishing true from false, then it should make no difference whether the false comes from a sick or a healthy brain, because the dualist’s brain does not analyse the information!

DAVID: The soul cannot distinguish true from false if the brain is sick, as it must use the sick brain networks to make any analysis.

dhw: And this is how you ignore what you have agreed to. The dualist’s soul uses the brain, whether sick or normal, to gather information – whether true or false - and then it does the analysing.

DAVID: No agreement.

You agreed four or five days that this was the case “in its limited form”, but never explained what you meant, and you bolded your own statement that “the soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool!” Why would these functions change if the brain is sick?

dhw: Belief that the soul is responsible for thought does not “separate” it from the brain! But just like different parts of the brain, it has its own function – namely, to do the thinking.

DAVID: I will not accept this theory in bold. The soul can think only by forming thoughts actively using the brain's networks to create the thought. My living soul is myself, and I do this.

dhw: WHAT DOES THE THINKING SOUL USE THE BRAIN FOR, IN ADDITION TO INFORMATION GATHERING AND MATERIAL EXPRESSION?

DAVID: Form its thoughts by activating brain networks which it must use.

Activating brain networks to do what…to use for what?

DAVID: The source of thought the soul creates is by using the brain's networks to actually form the thought. The psychopath's self/soul doesn't have any way of knowing right from wrong because his brain is permanently incapable of that judgement. We institutionalize, not execute, as a result. [dhw’s bold]

dhw: And there you have the result of your refusal to consider what the soul uses the brain for. How can a dualist attribute judgement of right and wrong to the brain? That is the task of the thinking, analysing, decision-making, free-will soul! Once again, the psychopath provides an impeccable example to illustrate the case for materialism!

DAVID: Your total confusion is apparent. Do you form thoughts by activating you brains networks?

Yes – to gather information and to give material expression to the thoughts I have then formulated about that information! The materialist does the same, but he argues that the thinking part of the brain activates other parts of the brain.

DAVID: Illness and drugs can always change the functions of the material brain. A depressed soul can be helped by using mitigating drugs to change its brain, but that is because the soul can now form normal thought with a normalized brain. The material brain cannot think without the soul using it to form thought, not dictating thought to the brain as your theory insists.

dhw: You agreed above that the soul “dictates” its thoughts to the brain, so that the brain can give them material expression. The fact that illness and drugs can change the functions of the material brain, thereby causing abnormal thought, is evidence that the source of thought is the brain. The fact that mitigating drugs can cure the abnormalities in the brain, thereby restoring normal thought, is also evidence that the source of thought is the brain. The soul has no role whatsoever in the two processes. Even in your scenario, it is helpless if the brain is diseased. It may as well not exist, and indeed maybe it doesn’t.

DAVID: I remind you of my dualism approach: In life the soul formulates thoughts by activating and using the brain networks. Only in death the soul becomes able to formulated thoughts without a brain present.

You don’t need to remind me, and there is no disagreement – this is what dualists believe. But you wrote above that “the material brain cannot think without the soul using it to form thought.” In dualism, the material brain does not think! Our discussion started because you and Egnor try to make out that seizures are evidence against materialism. But the psychopath and the epileptic and the drug addict and the drunkard all demonstrate how thought is affected by changes to the brain, and your example of the psychopath’s diseased brain being unable to form a correct judgement is a vivid illustration of materialism and determinism, not of dualism and free will.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 24, 2020, 21:57 (1430 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Thursday, December 24, 2020, 22:02

dhw: And this is how you ignore what you have agreed to. The dualist’s soul uses the brain, whether sick or normal, to gather information – whether true or false - and then it does the analysing.

DAVID: No agreement.

dhw: You agreed four or five days that this was the case “in its limited form”, but never explained what you meant, and you bolded your own statement that “the soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool!” Why would these functions change if the brain is sick?

Because a sick brain will only give soul thinking with that ill brain a false analysis


dhw: Belief that the soul is responsible for thought does not “separate” it from the brain! But just like different parts of the brain, it has its own function – namely, to do the thinking.

DAVID: I will not accept this theory in bold. The soul can think only by forming thoughts actively using the brain's networks to create the thought. My living soul is myself, and I do this.

dhw: WHAT DOES THE THINKING SOUL USE THE BRAIN FOR, IN ADDITION TO INFORMATION GATHERING AND MATERIAL EXPRESSION?

DAVID: Form its thoughts by activating brain networks which it must use.

Activating brain networks to do what…to use for what?

To form its thoughts. The living soul without active brain networks cannot think.


dhw: And there you have the result of your refusal to consider what the soul uses the brain for. How can a dualist attribute judgement of right and wrong to the brain? That is the task of the thinking, analysing, decision-making, free-will soul! Once again, the psychopath provides an impeccable example to illustrate the case for materialism!

DAVID: Your total confusion is apparent. Do you form thoughts by activating you brains networks?

dhw: Yes – to gather information and to give material expression to the thoughts I have then formulated about that information! The materialist does the same, but he argues that the thinking part of the brain activates other parts of the brain.

The bold is the key!!! By what process does your self formulate thought?


DAVID: I remind you of my dualism approach: In life the soul formulates thoughts by activating and using the brain networks. Only in death the soul becomes able to formulated thoughts without a brain present.

You don’t need to remind me, and there is no disagreement – this is what dualists believe. But you wrote above that “the material brain cannot think without the soul using it to form thought.” In dualism, the material brain does not think!

Full agreement.

dhw: Our discussion started because you and Egnor try to make out that seizures are evidence against materialism. But the psychopath and the epileptic and the drug addict and the drunkard all demonstrate how thought is affected by changes to the brain, and your example of the psychopath’s diseased brain being unable to form a correct judgement is a vivid illustration of materialism and determinism, not of dualism and free will.

The bold is where your logic falls apart as you miss-analyze it. The psychopath is trapped at having to try to form thought forced to use a sick brain. The sick brain does not permit him the ability to form normal thought. Egnor and I believe we think using our brain. But a normal brain must be present to form normal thinking. A sick brain results in sick thought as the soul attempts to create it. The brain is just a tool for the soul, not an originator of any thought on its own. Pure dualism, no smidgen of materialism. What is your problem with this?

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Saturday, December 26, 2020, 11:26 (1428 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: And this is how you ignore what you have agreed to. The dualist’s soul uses the brain, whether sick or normal, to gather information – whether true or false - and then it does the analysing.

DAVID: No agreement.

dhw: You agreed four or five days that this was the case “in its limited form”, but never explained what you meant, and you bolded your own statement that “the soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool!” Why would these functions change if the brain is sick?

DAVID: Because a sick brain will only give soul thinking with that ill brain a false analysis.

How can the brain give the soul a false analysis when it is the soul that does the analysing? All this confusion arises out of your refusal to accept the different FUNCTIONS of the dualist’s brain and the dualist’s soul!

dhw: WHAT DOES THE THINKING SOUL USE THE BRAIN FOR, IN ADDITION TO INFORMATION GATHERING AND MATERIAL EXPRESSION?

DAVID: Form its thoughts by activating brain networks which it must use.

dhw: Activating brain networks to do what…to use for what?

DAVID: To form its thoughts. The living soul without active brain networks cannot think. […] Do you form thoughts by activating you brains networks?

(I've adapted my earlier reply for clarity:) Yes – my dualist's soul would gather information and give material expression to the thoughts I have then formulated about that information! My materialist brain would do the same, with the thinking part of the brain activating other parts of the brain.

DAVID: The bold is the key!!! By what process does your self formulate thought?

Of course that’s the key. How often do you want me to repeat the process? The dualist’s immaterial soul processes the information provided by the material brain, forms conclusions etc., and then uses the brain to give material expression to its thoughts! The materialist believes that the process depends entirely on the material brain, with some sections responsible for providing the information, and others responsible for thinking about it.

dhw: […] you wrote above that “the material brain cannot think without the soul using it to form thought.” In dualism, the material brain does not think!

DAVID: Full agreement.

So what is the meaning of your bolded sentence, which implies that the brain can only think if the soul uses it to form thought? Once again, you are slipping and sliding in order to avoid pin-pointing the different functions of the dualist’s soul and brain.

dhw: Our discussion started because you and Egnor try to make out that seizures are evidence against materialism. But the psychopath and the epileptic and the drug addict and the drunkard all demonstrate how thought is affected by changes to the brain, and your example of the psychopath’s diseased brain being unable to form a correct judgement is a vivid illustration of materialism and determinism, not of dualism and free will.

DAVID: The bold is where your logic falls apart as you miss-analyze it. The psychopath is trapped at having to try to form thought forced to use a sick brain. The sick brain does not permit him the ability to form normal thought. Egnor and I believe we think using our brain. But a normal brain must be present to form normal thinking. A sick brain results in sick thought as the soul attempts to create it. The brain is just a tool for the soul, not an originator of any thought on its own. Pure dualism, no smidgen of materialism. What is your problem with this?

No problem, and I do wish you would stick to the bold, but you won’t and don’t. Over and over again, you have the dualist’s brain thinking – the latest and prime example being that the psychopath’s diseased brain cannot form a correct judgement, as bolded. The dualist’s brain does not form judgements! That is the role of the soul, regardless of the truth or falsity of information provided by the brain. This is echoed by all the examples which show that brain abnormalities, whether permanent or temporary, are accompanied by abnormal thinking, and when the brain abnormality is cured, normal thinking returns. The dualist’s soul’s function is to process the information and make its judgements. The proposal that the brain makes incorrect judgements (previously it provided “incorrect analytic thought”) may be taken as evidence that a soul is not there! I am not arguing for materialism. I remain neutral. But just as psychic experiences suggest that there IS a soul, brain disease suggests that there ISN’T. So long as you continue to insist that the sick brain provides incorrect analyses and judgements, you are supporting materialism and determinism.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 26, 2020, 23:21 (1428 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: How can the brain give the soul a false analysis when it is the soul that does the analysing? All this confusion arises out of your refusal to accept the different FUNCTIONS of the dualist’s brain and the dualist’s soul!

The soul can analyze only as it uses the brain's networks. If the networks are acting with sickness, the analyze will be skewed and wrong.

dhw: Our discussion started because you and Egnor try to make out that seizures are evidence against materialism. But the psychopath and the epileptic and the drug addict and the drunkard all demonstrate how thought is affected by changes to the brain, and your example of the psychopath’s diseased brain being unable to form a correct judgement is a vivid illustration of materialism and determinism, not of dualism and free will.

DAVID: The bold is where your logic falls apart as you miss-analyze it. The psychopath is trapped at having to try to form thought forced to use a sick brain. The sick brain does not permit him the ability to form normal thought. Egnor and I believe we think using our brain. But a normal brain must be present to form normal thinking. A sick brain results in sick thought as the soul attempts to create it. The brain is just a tool for the soul, not an originator of any thought on its own. Pure dualism, no smidgen of materialism. What is your problem with this?

dhw: No problem, and I do wish you would stick to the bold, but you won’t and don’t. Over and over again, you have the dualist’s brain thinking – the latest and prime example being that the psychopath’s diseased brain cannot form a correct judgement, as bolded. The dualist’s brain does not form judgements! That is the role of the soul, regardless of the truth or falsity of information provided by the brain.

Let's try to have you understand my view: I am my soul living essence. I am myself, and I reach them in my mind. Therefore the only way a thought can appear is if I think. I can only do that by using my brain and activating its networks. My brain cannot make thoughts on its own. My soul living essence has to use eth brain as its tool to create any thought. Non-functioning brain, no thought possible during life. Changed brain function by chemicals, by brain damage, or by lacking proper functioning circuits for the development of a conscience will all result in improper thought development. Summary: The brain is my tool to create thought. My sick brain will result in me having sick thoughts that I do not want to have, but I won 't realize it in severe cases of sick brain (psychopath)

dhw: So long as you continue to insist that the sick brain provides incorrect analyses and judgements, you are supporting materialism and determinism.

There is nothing in my above discussion to support that conclusion. No one can think normally with a sick brain, one not functioning normally. The brain is our tool for thought. Broke tool, broke thought. I don't know why you are so confused. It must be previous wrong impressions you can't shake.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Sunday, December 27, 2020, 11:22 (1427 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: How can the brain give the soul a false analysis when it is the soul that does the analysing? All this confusion arises out of your refusal to accept the different FUNCTIONS of the dualist’s brain and the dualist’s soul!

DAVID: The soul can analyze only as it uses the brain's networks. If the networks are acting with sickness, the analyze will be skewed and wrong.

Same again: you agree that the dualist’s soul uses the brain as a tool to gather information. If the soul analyses true, false, indeterminate information presented by a normal brain, why can’t it do the same when the brain offers true, false, indeterminate information presented by a sick brain? If a sick brain leads to sick thoughts, the obvious inference is that the brain is the source of thought!

DAVID: […] BBBThe brain is just a tool for the soul, not an originator of any thought on its own. Pure dualism, no smidgen of materialism. What is your problem with this?

dhw: No problem, and I do wish you would stick to the bold, but you won’t and don’t. Over and over again, you have the dualist’s brain thinking – the latest and prime example being that the psychopath’s diseased brain cannot form a correct judgement […] The dualist’s brain does not form judgements! That is the role of the soul, regardless of the truth or falsity of information provided by the brain.

DAVID: Let's try to have you understand my view: I am my soul living essence. I am myself, and I reach them in my mind. Therefore the only way a thought can appear is if I think. I can only do that by using my brain and activating its networks. My brain cannot make thoughts on its own. My soul living essence has to use eth brain as its tool to create any thought. Non-functioning brain, no thought possible during life. Changed brain function by chemicals, by brain damage, or by lacking proper functioning circuits for the development of a conscience will all result in improper thought development. Summary: The brain is my tool to create thought. My sick brain will result in me having sick thoughts that I do not want to have, but I won't realize it in severe cases of sick brain (psychopath)

You keep using the pronoun “I”, which for the dualist consists of mind/soul and body/brain. By yet again glossing over the different functions of soul and brain, you manage to state obvious truths which will apply just as aptly to the materialist interpretation as to the dualist! Of course the only way a thought can appear is if you think! Of course the dualist’s soul uses the brain – to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts – just as the thinking area of the materialist’s brain uses its information-gathering compartments and its compartments for material expression. “Non-functioning brain, no thought possible” is the whole basis of the materialist’s case. And of course the sick brain will result in sick thoughts – also implying that the brain is the source of thought. There is nothing in the above that supports the case for a soul! And this is epitomized by two of your statements: the “soul” receives “incorrect analytic thought” from the brain, and the psychopath’s brain is unable to form a correct judgement. There is no role for the soul if the brain does the analysing and the judging!

dhw: So long as you continue to insist that the sick brain provides incorrect analyses and judgements, you are supporting materialism and determinism.

DAVID: There is nothing in my above discussion to support that conclusion. No one can think normally with a sick brain, one not functioning normally. The brain is our tool for thought. Broke tool, broke thought. I don't know why you are so confused. It must be previous wrong impressions you can't shake.

The statement that no one can think normally with a sick brain summarizes the case for materialism. The “broke” brain or thinking mechanism – whether psychopathic, epileptic, drugged or drunk – cannot think properly. I don’t know why you are so confused. It must be because you cannot shake your belief that the soul exists. You may be right. Psychic experiences support your belief. But diseased brains don’t.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Sunday, December 27, 2020, 15:09 (1427 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Sunday, December 27, 2020, 15:23

DAVID: Let's try to have you understand my view: I am my soul living essence. I am myself, and I reach them in my mind. Therefore the only way a thought can appear is if I think. I can only do that by using my brain and activating its networks. My brain cannot make thoughts on its own. My soul living essence has to use eth brain as its tool to create any thought. Non-functioning brain, no thought possible during life. Changed brain function by chemicals, by brain damage, or by lacking proper functioning circuits for the development of a conscience will all result in improper thought development. Summary: The brain is my tool to create thought. My sick brain will result in me having sick thoughts that I do not want to have, but I won't realize it in severe cases of sick brain (psychopath)

dhw: You keep using the pronoun “I”, which for the dualist consists of mind/soul and body/brain. By yet again glossing over the different functions of soul and brain, you manage to state obvious truths which will apply just as aptly to the materialist interpretation as to the dualist! Of course the only way a thought can appear is if you think! Of course the dualist’s soul uses the brain – to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts –

This is the point where I question your fixed repeated statement in bold. Tell me how the soul uses the brain to create thought. What is the exact mechanism? I've told you my view. The soul must use the brain networks as its formative tool.

dhw: just as the thinking area of the materialist’s brain uses its information-gathering compartments and its compartments for material expression. “Non-functioning brain, no thought possible” is the whole basis of the materialist’s case. And of course the sick brain will result in sick thoughts – also implying that the brain is the source of thought.

Of course the brain is the terminal material source of thought as driven by a soul employing the circuits to create the thought. Without the circuits in functional action the soul cannot think. Immaterial living soul, living material brain working together

dhw: There is nothing in the above that supports the case for a soul! And this is epitomized by two of your statements: the “soul” receives “incorrect analytic thought” from the brain, and the psychopath’s brain is unable to form a correct judgement. There is no role for the soul if the brain does the analyzing and the judging!

Remember I am my soul. My brain does nothing unless unless I use it to think. A brain cannot think by itself.


dhw: So long as you continue to insist that the sick brain provides incorrect analyses and judgements, you are supporting materialism and determinism.

DAVID: There is nothing in my above discussion to support that conclusion. No one can think normally with a sick brain, one not functioning normally. The brain is our tool for thought. Broke tool, broke thought. I don't know why you are so confused. It must be previous wrong impressions you can't shake.

dhw: The statement that no one can think normally with a sick brain summarizes the case for materialism. The “broke” brain or thinking mechanism – whether psychopathic, epileptic, drugged or drunk – cannot think properly. I don’t know why you are so confused. It must be because you cannot shake your belief that the soul exists. You may be right. Psychic experiences support your belief. But diseased brains don’t.

Yes diseased brains do support my theory. They don't allow the soul (me) to think properly. I view myself as my soul. I am a living essence. My immaterial mind is the only driver of thought in my brain. Immaterial mind (soul) and material brain as its tool. PURE DUALISM. A broken tool does not work properly. I am the furthest from a materialist as one can find. You keep distorting what I describe. A brain in a vat is thoughtless. A living unconscious brain is not able to allow thought to be formed. A conscious soul must be active for thought to appear and as that soul enters the brain networks and forms thought using them. Nothing could be clearer. We all recognize we do not know how an immaterial consciousness drives a material brain but it does. Only I can form my thoughts using my immaterial consciousness to drive my material brain. Only dualism applies. My immaterial consciousness is my soul. It uses my living brain to think and after death it can form immaterial thought on its own.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Monday, December 28, 2020, 08:41 (1426 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: [...] Non-functioning brain, no thought possible during life. Changed brain function by chemicals, by brain damage, or by lacking proper functioning circuits for the development of a conscience will all result in improper thought development. Summary: The brain is my tool to create thought. My sick brain will result in me having sick thoughts that I do not want to have, but I won't realize it in severe cases of sick brain (psychopath)

dhw: You keep using the pronoun “I”, which for the dualist consists of mind/soul and body/brain. By yet again glossing over the different functions of soul and brain, you manage to state obvious truths.

In fact all of the above preceding your summary describes the materialist interpretation of the thought process!

dhw: Of course the only way a thought can appear is if you think! Of course the dualist’s soul uses the brain – to gather information and to give material expression to its thoughts


DAVID: This is the point where I question your fixed repeated statement in bold. Tell me how the soul uses the brain to create thought. What is the exact mechanism? I've told you my view. The soul must use the brain networks as its formative tool.

Nobody knows the “exact mechanism” that gives rise to consciousness and thought! You admit this later on: “We all recognize we do not know how an immaterial consciousness drives a material brain but it does.” Your view merely restates that the soul uses the brain, and yet again you omit to tell us what the soul uses the brain for!

dhw: “Non-functioning brain, no thought possible” is the whole basis of the materialist’s case. And of course the sick brain will result in sick thoughts – also implying that the brain is the source of thought.

DAVID: Of course the brain is the terminal material source of thought as driven by a soul employing the circuits to create the thought. Without the circuits in functional action the soul cannot think. Immaterial living soul, living material brain working together.

More muddy waters. Yes, the dualist’s soul “employs the circuits to create the thought” or uses the brain, as I have described. What is the “terminal material source of thought”? In plain language: the beginning of the dualistic process is information supplied by the non-thinking brain, the soul then translates the information into meaningful thought, and the end is the soul instructing the brain to give material expression to its thoughts. What is your objection?

dhw: There is nothing in the above that supports the case for a soul! And this is epitomized by two of your statements: the “soul” receives “incorrect analytic thought” from the brain, and the psychopath’s brain is unable to form a correct judgement. There is no role for the soul if the brain does the analyzing and the judging!

DAVID: Remember I am my soul. My brain does nothing unless I use it to think. A brain cannot think by itself.

Yes, in dualism you are your soul, and your soul uses the brain as bolded above and repeated ad nauseam. The dualist’s brain can’t think for itself, because that is the function of the soul. And that is why it is absurd for a dualist to make the two bolded statements above.

DAVID: No one can think normally with a sick brain, one not functioning normally. The brain is our tool for thought. Broke tool, broke thought. […]

dhw: The statement that no one can think normally with a sick brain summarizes the case for materialism. The “broke” brain or thinking mechanism – whether psychopathic, epileptic, drugged or drunk – cannot think properly.

DAVID: […] A living unconscious brain is not able to allow thought to be formed. A conscious soul must be active for thought to appear and as that soul enters the brain networks and forms thought using them.

A materialist would say an unconscious brain cannot think. Revive the unconscious brain, and it can think. The reviving medication/operation/weaning/sobering up works on the brain.

DAVID: Nothing could be clearer. We all recognize we do not know how an immaterial consciousness drives a material brain but it does. Only I can form my thoughts using my immaterial consciousness to drive my material brain. Only dualism applies. My immaterial consciousness is my soul. It uses my living brain to think and after death it can form immaterial thought on its own.

Nobody knows the source of consciousness and hence of thought. The open question is whether “I” consist of mind/soul and body/brain, or just body and brain. The dualist’s soul uses the brain, and part of the materialist’s brain uses other parts of the brain. The diseased/cured brain clearly favours materialism, as above, and as epitomized by your bolded statements concerning the diseased brain’s incorrect analytic thought and inability to form a correct judgement. However, psychic experiences such as NDEs, support the theory that there is a soul which CAN think independently of the brain. Hence my own neutrality on the subject.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Monday, December 28, 2020, 13:39 (1426 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: This is the point where I question your fixed repeated statement in bold. Tell me how the soul uses the brain to create thought. What is the exact mechanism? I've told you my view. The soul must use the brain networks as its formative tool.

dhw: Nobody knows the “exact mechanism” that gives rise to consciousness and thought! You admit this later on: “We all recognize we do not know how an immaterial consciousness drives a material brain but it does.” Your view merely restates that the soul uses the brain, and yet again you omit to tell us what the soul uses the brain for!

To enter the brain circuits to create thought. I don't know how I do it, but I use my brain to cerate thought.


dhw: More muddy waters. Yes, the dualist’s soul “employs the circuits to create the thought” or uses the brain, as I have described. What is the “terminal material source of thought”? In plain language: the beginning of the dualistic process is information supplied by the non-thinking brain, the soul then translates the information into meaningful thought, and the end is the soul instructing the brain to give material expression to its thoughts. What is your objection?

The bold involves activating the brain by creating thought with it.


DAVID: Remember I am my soul. My brain does nothing unless I use it to think. A brain cannot think by itself.

dhw: Yes, in dualism you are your soul, and your soul uses the brain as bolded above and repeated ad nauseam. The dualist’s brain can’t think for itself, because that is the function of the soul. And that is why it is absurd for a dualist to make the two bolded statements above.

Again you HAVE A THINKING SOUL OFF TO THE SIDE TELLING THE BRAIN WHAT TO THINK AS IF NOT ATTACHED TO THE BRAIN WHILE CREATING THOUGHT.

DAVID: […] A living unconscious brain is not able to allow thought to be formed. A conscious soul must be active for thought to appear and as that soul enters the brain networks and forms thought using them.

DHW: A materialist would say an unconscious brain cannot think. Revive the unconscious brain, and it can think. The reviving medication/operation/weaning/sobering up works on the brain.

Of course, when awake, the brain can be made to think by the soul .


DAVID: Nothing could be clearer. We all recognize we do not know how an immaterial consciousness drives a material brain but it does. Only I can form my thoughts using my immaterial consciousness to drive my material brain. Only dualism applies. My immaterial consciousness is my soul. It uses my living brain to think and after death it can form immaterial thought on its own.

dhw: Nobody knows the source of consciousness and hence of thought. The open question is whether “I” consist of mind/soul and body/brain, or just body and brain. The dualist’s soul uses the brain, and part of the materialist’s brain uses other parts of the brain. The diseased/cured brain clearly favours materialism, as above, and as epitomized by your bolded statements concerning the diseased brain’s incorrect analytic thought and inability to form a correct judgement. However, psychic experiences such as NDEs, support the theory that there is a soul which CAN think independently of the brain. Hence my own neutrality on the subject.

The brain is and can be only a material tool. I drive my brain to make thought.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Tuesday, December 29, 2020, 09:24 (1425 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: This is the point where I question your fixed repeated statement in bold. Tell me how the soul uses the brain to create thought. What is the exact mechanism? I've told you my view. The soul must use the brain networks as its formative tool.

dhw: Nobody knows the “exact mechanism” that gives rise to consciousness and thought! You admit this later on: “We all recognize we do not know how an immaterial consciousness drives a material brain but it does.” Your view merely restates that the soul uses the brain, and yet again you omit to tell us what the soul uses the brain for!

DAVID: To enter the brain circuits to create thought. I don't know how I do it, but I use my brain to create thought.

A materialist would agree with that. The problem is that we do not know what constitutes “I”. You say mind/soul and body/brain. A materialist says body/brain. See below for more on this and on the soul “entering” the brain circuits.

dhw: In plain language: the beginning of the dualistic process is information supplied by the non-thinking brain, the soul then translates the information into meaningful thought, and the end is the soul instructing the brain to give material expression to its thoughts. What is your objection?

DAVID: The bold involves activating the brain by creating thought with it.

What does that mean, if it doesn’t mean the soul using the information provided by the brain, thinking about it, and using the brain to giving thought its material expression?

dhw: […] in dualism you are your soul, and your soul uses the brain as bolded above and repeated ad nauseam. The dualist’s brain can’t think for itself, because that is the function of the soul. And that is why it is absurd for a dualist to make the two bolded statements above. [dhw: Now bolded below]

DAVID: Again you HAVE A THINKING SOUL OFF TO THE SIDE TELLING THE BRAIN WHAT TO THINK AS IF NOT ATTACHED TO THE BRAIN WHILE CREATING THOUGHT.

Above, you talk of the soul “entering” the brain circuits. It’s you, then, who separate soul and brain! I have stated explicitly that if the soul exists, it must reside within the brain. The separation relates only to their different functions, which you refuse to acknowledge. But this is a red herring. You keep agreeing that the dualist’s brain does not do the thinking, and you keep telling us that it does do the thinking: hence the soul receiving “incorrect analytic thought” from the brain, and the psychopath’s brain being unable to form a correct judgement. You do the same in the next exchange:

dhw: A materialist would say an unconscious brain cannot think. Revive the unconscious brain, and it can think. The reviving medication/operation/weaning/sobering up works on the brain.

DAVID: Of course, when awake, the brain can be made to think by the soul.

So once again, instead of the soul doing the thinking (e.g. analysing and decision-making), we have the soul making the brain do the thinking (e.g. passing on incorrect analytic thought, or forming judgements). Whereas a week ago: “The soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool.”

dhw: Nobody knows the source of consciousness and hence of thought. The open question is whether “I” consist of mind/soul and body/brain, or just body and brain. The dualist’s soul uses the brain, and part of the materialist’s brain uses other parts of the brain. The diseased/cured brain clearly favours materialism, as above, and as epitomized by your bolded statements concerning the diseased brain’s incorrect analytic thought and inability to form a correct judgement. However, psychic experiences such as NDEs, support the theory that there is a soul which CAN think independently of the brain. Hence my own neutrality on the subject.

DAVID: The brain is and can be only a material tool. I drive my brain to make thought.

Nobody – dualist or materialist – can possibly disagree that I use my brain when I think. The
basic question to be answered is: what is “I”? Is it soul/mind plus brain/body (dualist) or brain/body alone (materialism)? Neither dualist nor materialist knows how immaterial consciousness - and hence the ability to think - comes to exist. However, diseased brains suggest that it is a product of the brain, whereas NDEs suggest that it is a product of a separate entity (source unknown) that resides within the brain until the body dies.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 30, 2020, 02:41 (1425 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: To enter the brain circuits to create thought. I don't know how I do it, but I use my brain to create thought.

dhw: A materialist would agree with that. The problem is that we do not know what constitutes “I”. You say mind/soul and body/brain. A materialist says body/brain. See below for more on this and on the soul “entering” the brain circuits.

The 'I' is the immaterial me. For me it is my living soul. That immaterial whatever in my immaterial consciousness must employ my material brain circuits for any thought


dhw: In plain language: the beginning of the dualistic process is information supplied by the non-thinking brain, the soul then translates the information into meaningful thought, and the end is the soul instructing the brain to give material expression to its thoughts. What is your objection?

DAVID: The bold involves activating the brain by creating thought with it.

dhw: What does that mean, if it doesn’t mean the soul using the information provided by the brain, thinking about it, and using the brain to giving thought its material expression?

The thought must be created using the material brain under vteh control of an immaterial soul, as a living self.


dhw: […] in dualism you are your soul, and your soul uses the brain as bolded above and repeated ad nauseam. The dualist’s brain can’t think for itself, because that is the function of the soul. And that is why it is absurd for a dualist to make the two bolded statements above. [dhw: Now bolded below]

DAVID: Again you HAVE A THINKING SOUL OFF TO THE SIDE TELLING THE BRAIN WHAT TO THINK AS IF NOT ATTACHED TO THE BRAIN WHILE CREATING THOUGHT.

Above, you talk of the soul “entering” the brain circuits. It’s you, then, who separate soul and brain!

I view them as separate entities!!! I am a dualist. I drive my brain to produce my thoughts.


DAVID: Of course, when awake, the brain can be made to think by the soul.

dhw: So once again, instead of the soul doing the thinking (e.g. analysing and decision-making), we have the soul making the brain do the thinking (e.g. passing on incorrect analytic thought, or forming judgements). Whereas a week ago: “The soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool.”

Wild analysis of my theory. My soul thinks only by using my brain as its tool for thought.

DAVID: The brain is and can be only a material tool. I drive my brain to make thought.

dhw: Nobody – dualist or materialist – can possibly disagree that I use my brain when I think. The basic question to be answered is: what is “I”? Is it soul/mind plus brain/body (dualist) or brain/body alone (materialism)? Neither dualist nor materialist knows how immaterial consciousness - and hence the ability to think - comes to exist. However, diseased brains suggest that it is a product of the brain,

Of course consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain. But the emergence of a living brain is the result of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert. We can't even explain why emergent life exists!! Simply put all the proteins together and what do you have, a pile of proteins. And no materialist can explain the emergent properties, any of them we are discussing.

dhw: whereas NDEs suggest that it is a product of a separate entity (source unknown) that resides within the brain until the body dies.

Yes, doesn't that pose a problem for pure materialists? Which is why I am a double dualist, once in life and again in life and after death I see the soul in two forms.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Wednesday, December 30, 2020, 12:11 (1424 days ago) @ David Turell

A preliminary note: about three years ago, we had similar discussions on two threads: “Reconciling materialism and dualism” and “A theory of intelligence”. They might be worth revisiting, but I don’t have time now.

DAVID: To enter the brain circuits to create thought. I don't know how I do it, but I use my brain to create thought.

dhw: A materialist would agree with that. The problem is that we do not know what constitutes “I”. You say mind/soul and body/brain. A materialist says body/brain. See below for more on this and on the soul “entering” the brain circuits.

DAVID: The 'I' is the immaterial me. For me it is my living soul. That immaterial whatever in my immaterial consciousness must employ my material brain circuits for any thought.

Yes, dualists say that consciousness arises from an immaterial self, and materialists say it arises from the brain. See below for your conversion.

DAVID: The bold involves activating the brain by creating thought with it.

dhw: What does that mean, if it doesn’t meanthe soul using the information provided by the brain, thinking about it, and using the brain to give thought its material expression?

DAVID: The thought must be created using the material brain under the control of an immaterial soul, as a living self.

The same thing: the soul uses the brain to create its thoughts! How, if not as bolded above?

dhw: […] in dualism you are your soul, and your soul uses the brain as bolded above and repeated ad nauseam. The dualist’s brain can’t think for itself, because that is the function of the soul. And that is why it is absurd for a dualist to make the two bolded statements above.

Your two statements were that the soul RECEIVES incorrect analytic thought from the brain, and the psychopath’s brain is unable to form a correct judgement. You continue to ignore them.

DAVID: Again you HAVE A THINKING SOUL OFF TO THE SIDE TELLING THE BRAIN WHAT TO THINK AS IF NOT ATTACHED TO THE BRAIN WHILE CREATING THOUGHT.

dhw: Above, you talk of the soul “entering” the brain circuits. It’s you, then, who separate soul and brain!

DAVID: I view them as separate entities!!! I am a dualist. I drive my brain to produce my thoughts.

First you “accuse” me of separating soul from brain (“off to the side”), and then you support the view that the soul and the brain are separate entities! There is no disagreement! Dualists believe in two separate entities that work together: the soul resides within the brain, and uses it as bolded above. Why won’t you accept this description of dualism?

DAVID: Of course, when awake, the brain can be made to think by the soul. [dhw’s bold]

dhw: So once again, instead of the soul doing the thinking (e.g. analysing and decision-making), we have the soul making the brain do the thinking […]

DAVID: Wild analysis of my theory. My soul thinks only by using my brain as its tool for thought.

Agreed. The dualist’s brain is NOT “made to think”. The thinking soul uses the brain as described above.

DAVID: The brain is and can be only a material tool. I drive my brain to make thought.

dhw: Nobody – dualist or materialist – can possibly disagree that I use my brain when I think. The basic question to be answered is: what is “I”? Is it soul/mind plus brain/body (dualist) or brain/body alone (materialism)? Neither dualist nor materialist knows how immaterial consciousness - and hence the ability to think - comes to exist. However, diseased brains suggest that it is a product of the brain,

DAVID: Of course consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain. But the emergence of a living brain is the result of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert. We can't even explain why emergent life exists!! Simply put all the proteins together and what do you have, a pile of proteins. And no materialist can explain the emergent properties, any of them we are discussing.

This is a complete volte face. If consciousness is an emergent product of the brain, which in turn is an emergent product of all the biochemical interactions of all the cells, you have a material basis for consciousness and thought. No one can explain consciousness, through a soul or as an emergent product of the brain, but you now say that ”of course” it is the latter. Pure materialism!

dhw: […] whereas NDEs suggest that it is a product of a separate entity (source unknown) that resides within the brain until the body dies.

DAVID: Yes, doesn't that pose a problem for pure materialists? Which is why I am a double dualist, once in life and again in life and after death I see the soul in two forms.

Yes, it poses a problem for someone who believes that “of course consciousness is an emergent product of the brain” and “of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert”. That is why, just like me, you are torn between the materialism you have just espoused and the dualism of NDEs which (please note) I described above as evidence for a “separate entity” – your very own words earlier in this post. Welcome to my fence.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 30, 2020, 19:11 (1424 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Wednesday, December 30, 2020, 19:17

DAVID: The thought must be created using the material brain under the control of an immaterial soul, as a living self.

dhw: The same thing: the soul uses the brain to create its thoughts! How, if not as bolded above?

dhw: […] in dualism you are your soul, and your soul uses the brain as bolded above and repeated ad nauseam. The dualist’s brain can’t think for itself, because that is the function of the soul. And that is why it is absurd for a dualist to make the two bolded statements above.

dhw:Your two statements were that the soul RECEIVES incorrect analytic thought from the brain, and the psychopath’s brain is unable to form a correct judgement. You continue to ignore them.

No!!! The soul is forced by a sick brain to create incorrect thought. The soul is trapped into using a bad tool of thought creation.


dhw: So once again, instead of the soul doing the thinking (e.g. analysing and decision-making), we have the soul making the brain do the thinking […]

DAVID: Wild analysis of my theory. My soul thinks only by using my brain as its tool for thought.

dhw: Agreed. The dualist’s brain is NOT “made to think”. The thinking soul uses the brain as described above.

Yes.


DAVID: The brain is and can be only a material tool. I drive my brain to make thought.

dhw: Nobody – dualist or materialist – can possibly disagree that I use my brain when I think. The basic question to be answered is: what is “I”? Is it soul/mind plus brain/body (dualist) or brain/body alone (materialism)? Neither dualist nor materialist knows how immaterial consciousness - and hence the ability to think - comes to exist. However, diseased brains suggest that it is a product of the brain,

DAVID: Of course consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain. But the emergence of a living brain is the result of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert. We can't even explain why emergent life exists!! Simply put all the proteins together and what do you have, a pile of proteins. And no materialist can explain the emergent properties, any of them we are discussing.

dhw: This is a complete volte face. If consciousness is an emergent product of the brain, which in turn is an emergent product of all the biochemical interactions of all the cells, you have a material basis for consciousness and thought. No one can explain consciousness, through a soul or as an emergent product of the brain, but you now say that ”of course” it is the latter. Pure materialism!

No, no, no! An emergent property is our garbage way of describing what we don't understand. A conscious brain is worthless unless there is living self/soul to drive it. Pure dualism. The material brain is only a tool. There has to be a material part and an immaterial part. Pure material, as in a brain does nothing unless alive, and that is an emergent event..


dhw: […] whereas NDEs suggest that it is a product of a separate entity (source unknown) that resides within the brain until the body dies.

DAVID: Yes, doesn't that pose a problem for pure materialists? Which is why I am a double dualist, once in life and again in life and after death I see the soul in two forms.

dhw: Yes, it poses a problem for someone who believes that “of course consciousness is an emergent product of the brain” and “of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert”. That is why, just like me, you are torn between the materialism you have just espoused and the dualism of NDEs which (please note) I described above as evidence for a “separate entity” – your very own words earlier in this post. Welcome to my fence.

I'm not on the fence with you if you read my approach above. A pile of material proteins is simply a pile of material proteins. It requires the emergence of life and of consciousness, immaterial events we cannot explain. We know what is living, and we know that carefully designed functions and interconnections with biochemicals somehow creates living organisms. Thus the original basis is material. It has to be. What happens next is magical and immaterial. Why do life and consciousness appear? We have no answer at the material level itself. There is no way around the obvious dualism and the need for magic. That is where God is required.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Thursday, December 31, 2020, 09:00 (1423 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: […] The dualist’s brain can’t think for itself, because that is the function of the soul. And that is why it is absurd for a dualist to make the two bolded statements above.

dhw:Your two statements were that the soul RECEIVES incorrect analytic thought from the brain, and the psychopath’s brain is unable to form a correct judgement. You continue to ignore them.

DAVID: No!!! The soul is forced by a sick brain to create incorrect thought. The soul is trapped into using a bad tool of thought creation.

Why do you say “no” with three exclamation marks? It was you who made these two statements, which indicate that the brain analyses and judges!

DAVID: The brain is and can be only a material tool. I drive my brain to make thought.

dhw: Nobody – dualist or materialist – can possibly disagree that I use my brain when I think. The basic question to be answered is: what is “I”? Is it soul/mind plus brain/body (dualist) or brain/body alone (materialism)? Neither dualist nor materialist knows how immaterial consciousness - and hence the ability to think - comes to exist. However, diseased brains suggest that it is a product of the brain.

DAVID: Of course consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain. But the emergence of a living brain is the result of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert. We can't even explain why emergent life exists!! Simply put all the proteins together and what do you have, a pile of proteins. And no materialist can explain the emergent properties, any of them we are discussing.

dhw: This is a complete volte face. If consciousness is an emergent product of the brain, which in turn is an emergent product of all the biochemical interactions of all the cells, you have a material basis for consciousness and thought. No one can explain consciousness, through a soul or as an emergent product of the brain, but you now say that ”of course” it is the latter. Pure materialism!

DAVID: No, no, no! An emergent property is our garbage way of describing what we don't understand.

Nobody understands consciousness, but one theory is that its source is the brain. i.e. that it is a product of the biochemical interactions of the brain cells. That is materialism – precisely as you have described it. No “garbage” involved.

DAVID: A conscious brain is worthless unless there is living self/soul to drive it. Pure dualism. The material brain is only a tool. There has to be a material part and an immaterial part. Pure material, as in a brain does nothing unless alive, and that is an emergent event..

Not even a materialist would deny that the brain has to be alive in order to think! That doesn’t mean there must be a separate entity called the soul which “emerges” from...what? You simply solve the mystery by creating another mystery!

dhw: […] whereas NDEs suggest that it is a product of a separate entity (source unknown) that resides within the brain until the body dies.

DAVID: Yes, doesn't that pose a problem for pure materialists? Which is why I am a double dualist, once in life and again in life and after death I see the soul in two forms.

dhw: Yes, it poses a problem for someone who believes that “of course consciousness is an emergent product of the brain” and “of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert”. That is why, just like me, you are torn between the materialism you have just espoused and the dualism of NDEs which (please note) I described above as evidence for a “separate entity” […] Welcome to my fence.

DAVID: I'm not on the fence with you if you read my approach above. A pile of material proteins is simply a pile of material proteins. It requires the emergence of life and of consciousness, immaterial events we cannot explain. We know what is living, and we know that carefully designed functions and interconnections with biochemicals somehow creates living organisms. Thus the original basis is material. It has to be.

Once again, we are in complete agreement. No one can explain life and consciousness. Materialists believe – just as you do – that these both emerge from biochemicals.

DAVID: What happens next is magical and immaterial. Why do life and consciousness appear? We have no answer at the material level itself. There is no way around the obvious dualism and the need for magic. That is where God is required.

We have no answer at ANY level, and so there are two theories. 1) The magic emerges somehow from the combination of materials, as you have described. 2) The magic emerges somehow from a mysterious, immaterial something (let’s call it a soul, because a name will make it sound real) designed by a mysterious magical, unknown being (let’s call him God). Diseased brains support 1), and NDEs support 2). You have embraced 1), materialism, with your crystal clear statement that consciousness is a product of the brain cells, but your belief in a mysterious, immaterial something as a separate entity which lives on after the death of the brain (NDEs) means you also embrace 2), dualism. You are on my fence, whether you like it or not! :-)

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Friday, January 01, 2021, 00:11 (1423 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Nobody understands consciousness, but one theory is that its source is the brain. i.e. that it is a product of the biochemical interactions of the brain cells. That is materialism – precisely as you have described it. No “garbage” involved.

DAVID: A conscious brain is worthless unless there is living self/soul to drive it. Pure dualism. The material brain is only a tool. There has to be a material part and an immaterial part. Pure material, as in a brain does nothing unless alive, and that is an emergent event..

dhw: Not even a materialist would deny that the brain has to be alive in order to think! That doesn’t mean there must be a separate entity called the soul which “emerges” from...what? You simply solve the mystery by creating another mystery!

Exactly. The matter that forms any organism is not alive unless life emerges. That is one of the mysteries. The other is the consciousness which emerges, and then thought appears. The materialist leaves out the two emergent properties, both of which imply immaterial levels ah td have to magically appear.


dhw: […] whereas NDEs suggest that it is a product of a separate entity (source unknown) that resides within the brain until the body dies.

DAVID: Yes, doesn't that pose a problem for pure materialists? Which is why I am a double dualist, once in life and again in life and after death I see the soul in two forms.

dhw: Yes, it poses a problem for someone who believes that “of course consciousness is an emergent product of the brain” and “of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert”. That is why, just like me, you are torn between the materialism you have just espoused and the dualism of NDEs which (please note) I described above as evidence for a “separate entity” […] Welcome to my fence.

DAVID: I'm not on the fence with you if you read my approach above. A pile of material proteins is simply a pile of material proteins. It requires the emergence of life and of consciousness, immaterial events we cannot explain. We know what is living, and we know that carefully designed functions and interconnections with biochemicals somehow creates living organisms. Thus the original basis is material. It has to be.

dhw: Once again, we are in complete agreement. No one can explain life and consciousness. Materialists believe – just as you do – that these both emerge from biochemicals.

Not by themselves. There is an additional spark that makes it all begin, and that is God's gift.


DAVID: What happens next is magical and immaterial. Why do life and consciousness appear? We have no answer at the material level itself. There is no way around the obvious dualism and the need for magic. That is where God is required.

dhw: We have no answer at ANY level, and so there are two theories. 1) The magic emerges somehow from the combination of materials, as you have described. 2) The magic emerges somehow from a mysterious, immaterial something (let’s call it a soul, because a name will make it sound real) designed by a mysterious magical, unknown being (let’s call him God). Diseased brains support 1), and NDEs support 2). You have embraced 1), materialism, with your crystal clear statement that consciousness is a product of the brain cells, but your belief in a mysterious, immaterial something as a separate entity which lives on after the death of the brain (NDEs) means you also embrace 2), dualism. You are on my fence, whether you like it or not! :-)

It's just I don't believe it like you do. Piles of chemical even put together in a dead corpse are not life. We can't explain why we live any more than we can explain how we think with a consciousness. yes there is a material basis that is used by a living consciousness and that aspect is immaterial, and appears magically, we say from God, and that is true dualism, not materialism for me and Egnor, as believers. You see the material side as a non-believer. looking one way from your fence. And then there is tentative look the other way, giving two sides to the fence you sit atop. I don't have a fence. I'm totally on one side and I see the materials as simply tools, and don't accept your thoughts that I am accepting materialism. I don't. I see emergent life and consciousness that cannot arise from materials except with God's help.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Friday, January 01, 2021, 04:49 (1423 days ago) @ David Turell

Whatever life is it requires a constant source of energy:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6524/38?utm_campaign=toc_sci-mag_2020-12-31

"While he accepts the importance of molecular genetics and Darwinian evolution, England is more interested in the macroscopic, plainly visible hallmarks of life: self-replication, ordered and functionally specialized structures, and the ability to harness energy sources and to predict and respond to the environment. He argues that each of these capacities can be understood through physical processes that occur in ordinary, lifeless materials when driven by an energy source.

***

"The book builds up to a discussion of recent theoretical work by England and his collaborators, which argues that matter—living or not—will, in some circumstances, evolve over time to efficiently harness specific environmental energy sources. England's theory, called dissipative adaptation, does not seek to replace Darwinian evolution. It does, however, propose that at least some distinctive features of life could arise through a nonbiological process of selection. According to this theory, chemical or physical structures that efficiently use a source of energy to reduce disorder without themselves being destroyed are more likely to catalyze the formation and growth of similar structures.

***

"The distinction between living and nonliving matter is not an outcome of scientific inquiry, it is a conceptual framework that humans bring to our encounters with the world. As such, a preoccupation with the boundaries that define life is shared not only by physicists and biologists but also by those concerned with cultural traditions and religious practices. England uses images of life's boundaries from the biblical Book of Exodus, where staffs turn into serpents and a bush burns without being consumed, to evoke the fuzzy line between living and nonliving matter. Such references help explain, in memorable and human terms, the physics of this elusive boundary.

"It is rare for modern science to engage ancient religious texts; these traditions are more often nonoverlapping magisteria (2), if not fundamentally incompatible. Every Life Is on Fire shows that scripture can enrich our scientific interest in living systems, providing an ethical, moral, and even spiritual context. For the reader willing to brave metaphorical land mines, there is much to be learned by exploring the border regions, whether between physics and biology, between science and religion, or between life and lifeless matter.

Comment: There is more to life than just matter. The metaphysical and the source of energy to be absorbed are equally important. Just matter is one portion of the considerations. Teh materialists view is half baked.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Friday, January 01, 2021, 11:15 (1422 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Nobody understands consciousness, but one theory is that its source is the brain. i.e. that it is a product of the biochemical interactions of the brain cells. That is materialism – precisely as you have described it. No “garbage” involved.

DAVID: A conscious brain is worthless unless there is living self/soul to drive it. Pure dualism. The material brain is only a tool. There has to be a material part and an immaterial part. Pure material, as in a brain does nothing unless alive, and that is an emergent event..

dhw: Not even a materialist would deny that the brain has to be alive in order to think! That doesn’t mean there must be a separate entity called the soul which “emerges” from...what? You simply solve the mystery by creating another mystery!

DAVID: Exactly. The matter that forms any organism is not alive unless life emerges. That is one of the mysteries. The other is the consciousness which emerges, and then thought appears. The materialist leaves out the two emergent properties, both of which imply immaterial levels ah td have to magically appear.

The materialist doesn’t leave them out! He uses the terms used by the materialist David: “consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain.” That means the brain produces consciousness, but nobody knows how. Whereas the dualist David believes that the conscious self is a separate entity (somehow emanating from a mysterious being called God, though nobody knows how), is not a product of the brain, and lives on after death, but the two entities work together during life.

DAVID: We know what is living, and we know that carefully designed functions and interconnections with biochemicals somehow creates living organisms. Thus the original basis is material. It has to be.

dhw: Once again, we are in complete agreement. No one can explain life and consciousness. Materialists believe – just as you do – that these both emerge from biochemicals.

DAVID: Not by themselves. There is an additional spark that makes it all begin, and that is God's gift.

You have lost sight of the subject. Is consciousness the product of biochemical interactions between the cells of the brain, as you have maintained (= materialism), or is it part of a separate entity called the soul, as you have maintained (= dualism)?

dhw: You have embraced 1), materialism, with your crystal clear statement that consciousness is a product of the brain cells, but your belief in a mysterious, immaterial something as a separate entity which lives on after the death of the brain (NDEs) means you also embrace 2), dualism. You are on my fence, whether you like it or not! :-)

DAVID: It's just I don't believe it like you do. Piles of chemical even put together in a dead corpse are not life. We can't explain why we live any more than we can explain how we think with a consciousness.

Agreed. See above for a summary of the two equally problematic “explanations” which you have embraced.

I’m going to skip the rest of this post, because back in April 2018, on a thread called A THEORY OF INTELLIGENCE, I suggested a compromise between the two theories. It covered most of the ground we’ve been discussing here, so I’ll reproduce what I wrote in Part Two, 26 April 2018:

"There is, then, no dichotomy. Our personal cell communities cooperate with one another to produce all the attributes that make us ourselves, and the brain’s thinkers direct the brain’s implementers, just as they do in any community. But outside forces (diseases, drugs) can disrupt the inner communities and change their behaviour, again as in any community. In extreme cases, the cells cannot defend themselves.

Does this mean that we are at the mercy of our cells? No. We mustn’t think of them as aliens residing inside us. They ARE us. And we ARE the “colony”. Their intelligence is our intelligence, we are the thinking community, and all the interacting internal and external factors that shape us from birth – both material (e.g. genes) and immaterial (e.g. experiences) – are unique to each of us. (It is also worth noting that nothing is fixed, because there is a constant interaction between what happens outside us and what happens inside us.) And so, according to this hypothesis, the materialists are right, because the source of our intelligence is the material cell. And the dualists are right, because what is created by the material cells is the individual, immaterial intelligence/consciousness with all that it entails: will, emotion, memory, inventiveness etc. Ours is on a vastly higher level than that of individual bacteria and individual ants, but the two examples show the potential for complexity that arises from cooperation between individual intelligences, let alone between multiple communities of intelligences."

The compromise leaves open the source of the intelligent cell and the question of an afterlife (NDEs), but it removes the dichotomy between materialism and dualism in the same way as we removed the argument against free will: the cells are unique to us, and what we call the soul (the sum of all the immaterial attributes that give us our individual identities) emerges from the combined intelligences and experiences undergone by the different cell communities that make up our material selves. Theistic version: instead of giving us a soul, your God gave us the means to create our own soul.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Friday, January 01, 2021, 16:06 (1422 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: The materialist doesn’t leave them out! He uses the terms used by the materialist David: “consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain.” That means the brain produces consciousness, but nobody knows how. Whereas the dualist David believes that the conscious self is a separate entity (somehow emanating from a mysterious being called God, though nobody knows how), is not a product of the brain, and lives on after death, but the two entities work together during life.

The emergence of immaterial properties as consciousness and the state of living requires a special input from God. A 'living essence' is not material, but requires the material with which to create 'living' and thinking.

dhw: You have lost sight of the subject. Is consciousness the product of biochemical interactions between the cells of the brain, as you have maintained (= materialism), or is it part of a separate entity called the soul, as you have maintained (= dualism)?

An extra spark is needed for life or consciousness to appear from matter. Matter is always a an inert basis and there always needs an extra input for the immaterial to appear. Remember I believe we live within God's consciousness


dhw: You have embraced 1), materialism, with your crystal clear statement that consciousness is a product of the brain cells, but your belief in a mysterious, immaterial something as a separate entity which lives on after the death of the brain (NDEs) means you also embrace 2), dualism. You are on my fence, whether you like it or not! :-)

DAVID: It's just I don't believe it like you do. Piles of chemical even put together in a dead corpse are not life. We can't explain why we live any more than we can explain how we think with a consciousness.

dhw: Agreed. See above for a summary of the two equally problematic “explanations” which you have embraced.

I’m going to skip the rest of this post, because back in April 2018, on a thread called A THEORY OF INTELLIGENCE, I suggested a compromise between the two theories. It covered most of the ground we’ve been discussing here, so I’ll reproduce what I wrote in Part Two, 26 April 2018:

"There is, then, no dichotomy. Our personal cell communities cooperate with one another to produce all the attributes that make us ourselves, and the brain’s thinkers direct the brain’s implementers, just as they do in any community. But outside forces (diseases, drugs) can disrupt the inner communities and change their behaviour, again as in any community. In extreme cases, the cells cannot defend themselves.

Does this mean that we are at the mercy of our cells? No. We mustn’t think of them as aliens residing inside us. They ARE us. And we ARE the “colony”. Their intelligence is our intelligence, we are the thinking community, and all the interacting internal and external factors that shape us from birth – both material (e.g. genes) and immaterial (e.g. experiences) – are unique to each of us. (It is also worth noting that nothing is fixed, because there is a constant interaction between what happens outside us and what happens inside us.) And so, according to this hypothesis, the materialists are right, because the source of our intelligence is the material cell. And the dualists are right, because what is created by the material cells is the individual, immaterial intelligence/consciousness with all that it entails: will, emotion, memory, inventiveness etc. Ours is on a vastly higher level than that of individual bacteria and individual ants, but the two examples show the potential for complexity that arises from cooperation between individual intelligences, let alone between multiple communities of intelligences."

The compromise leaves open the source of the intelligent cell and the question of an afterlife (NDEs), but it removes the dichotomy between materialism and dualism in the same way as we removed the argument against free will: the cells are unique to us, and what we call the soul (the sum of all the immaterial attributes that give us our individual identities) emerges from the combined intelligences and experiences undergone by the different cell communities that make up our material selves. Theistic version: instead of giving us a soul, your God gave us the means to create our own soul.

I remember all of this, and accept none of it with God in charge, instructing cells how to react.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Saturday, January 02, 2021, 09:26 (1421 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: The materialist doesn’t leave them out! He uses the terms used by the materialist David: “consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain.” That means the brain produces consciousness, but nobody knows how. Whereas the dualist David believes that the conscious self is a separate entity (somehow emanating from a mysterious being called God, though nobody knows how), is not a product of the brain, and lives on after death, but the two entities work together during life.

DAVID: The emergence of immaterial properties as consciousness and the state of living requires a special input from God. A 'living essence' is not material, but requires the material with which to create 'living' and thinking.

What is this “living essence”? Humans have succeeded in creating artificial intelligence, in which intelligence “emerges” from materials. Why do you think your God is incapable of doing the same: designing biological “machinery” in the form of cells combined into a brain which produces intelligence, i.e. which, in your own words, creates consciousness as “an emerging product of the living brain”?

dhw: You have lost sight of the subject. Is consciousness the product of biochemical interactions between the cells of the brain, as you have maintained (= materialism), or is it part of a separate entity called the soul, as you have maintained (= dualism)?

DAVID: An extra spark is needed for life or consciousness to appear from matter. Matter is always a an inert basis and there always needs an extra input for the immaterial to appear. Remember I believe we live within God's consciousness.

Of course an extra spark is needed. That does not mean your God is incapable of designing the machine I have described above. I don’t know what you are trying to say with your last sentence. If God is universal intelligence, why does that mean he has to create a separate entity called the soul in order to give humans and animals intelligence? Why can’t he design a brain of which intelligence is an “emerging product” – i.e. what you describe so vividly as “the result of all the biological interactions of all cells in concert”?

dhw: The compromise leaves open the source of the intelligent cell and the question of an afterlife (NDEs), but it removes the dichotomy between materialism and dualism in the same way as we removed the argument against free will: the cells are unique to us, and what we call the soul (the sum of all the immaterial attributes that give us our individual identities) emerges from the combined intelligences and experiences undergone by the different cell communities that make up our material selves. Theistic version: instead of giving us a soul, your God gave us the means to create our own soul.

DAVID: I remember all of this, and accept none of it with God in charge, instructing cells how to react.

Exit free will. Enter your “humanized” control freak of a God. And your comment does not explain your opposition to my compromise: i.e. please tell us why you think your God is incapable of inventing a living biological machine which produces intelligence in the “emergent” manner you have described (= theistic materialism), but instead has to create two separate entities (= theistic dualism).

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 02, 2021, 15:24 (1421 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: The emergence of immaterial properties as consciousness and the state of living requires a special input from God. A 'living essence' is not material, but requires the material with which to create 'living' and thinking.

dhw: What is this “living essence”? Humans have succeeded in creating artificial intelligence, in which intelligence “emerges” from materials. Why do you think your God is incapable of doing the same: designing biological “machinery” in the form of cells combined into a brain which produces intelligence, i.e. which, in your own words, creates consciousness as “an emerging product of the living brain”?

A dead brain is the same material as a live brain but only a live brain thinks. How do you explain the difference?


dhw: You have lost sight of the subject. Is consciousness the product of biochemical interactions between the cells of the brain, as you have maintained (= materialism), or is it part of a separate entity called the soul, as you have maintained (= dualism)?

DAVID: An extra spark is needed for life or consciousness to appear from matter. Matter is always a an inert basis and there always needs an extra input for the immaterial to appear. Remember I believe we live within God's consciousness.

dhw: Of course an extra spark is needed. That does not mean your God is incapable of designing the machine I have described above. I don’t know what you are trying to say with your last sentence. If God is universal intelligence, why does that mean he has to create a separate entity called the soul in order to give humans and animals intelligence? Why can’t he design a brain of which intelligence is an “emerging product” – i.e. what you describe so vividly as “the result of all the biological interactions of all cells in concert”?

Have you forgotten NDE's. That is what forces the concept of soul from the studies reported, no Bible story needed.


dhw: The compromise leaves open the source of the intelligent cell and the question of an afterlife (NDEs), but it removes the dichotomy between materialism and dualism in the same way as we removed the argument against free will: the cells are unique to us, and what we call the soul (the sum of all the immaterial attributes that give us our individual identities) emerges from the combined intelligences and experiences undergone by the different cell communities that make up our material selves. Theistic version: instead of giving us a soul, your God gave us the means to create our own soul.

DAVID: I remember all of this, and accept none of it with God in charge, instructing cells how to react.

dhw: Exit free will. Enter your “humanized” control freak of a God. And your comment does not explain your opposition to my compromise: i.e. please tell us why you think your God is incapable of inventing a living biological machine which produces intelligence in the “emergent” manner you have described (= theistic materialism), but instead has to create two separate entities (= theistic dualism).

It is where the science facts lead me. They lead me to recognize the automaticity of cells and reject your cell committees. NDE's requires a two part soul. and finally I know God is nothing like a human. but you do.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Sunday, January 03, 2021, 11:19 (1420 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: A dead brain is the same material as a live brain but only a live brain thinks. How do you explain the difference?

Nobody on this planet can explain the difference. But even if we accept the existence of an unknown designer, how does that exclude the possibility that just like humans creating a material machine to produce artificial intelligence, your God created a biological machine to do produce "natural" intelligence, i.e. the cell/cell communities, from which both life and consciousness emerge as “the result of all the biological interactions of all cells in concert”, as you have described the process?

DAVID: An extra spark is needed for life or consciousness to appear from matter. Matter is always a an inert basis and there always needs an extra input for the immaterial to appear. Remember I believe we live within God's consciousness.

dhw: Of course an extra spark is needed. That does not mean your God is incapable of designing the machine I have described above. I don’t know what you are trying to say with your last sentence. If God is universal intelligence, why does that mean he has to create a separate entity called the soul in order to give humans and animals intelligence? Why can’t he design a brain of which intelligence is an “emerging product” – i.e. what you describe so vividly as “the result of all the biological interactions of all cells in concert”?

DAVID: Have you forgotten NDE's. That is what forces the concept of soul from the studies reported, no Bible story needed.

In the summary of my theory (see below), I specifically pointed out that “the compromise leaves open the source of the intelligent cell and the question of an afterlife (NDEs).” You also know perfectly well that psychic experiences, including NDEs, are an essential element of my agnosticism. However, since you ask, the compromise that I offered elsewhere was related to the fact that theoretically one could witness all events that have ever happened on Earth if one were to look at our planet from billions and billions of miles away with a mighty powerful telescope. The image never dies. Theoretically one might extend this to the possibility that what emerges from the brain – the immaterial products – might also live on. (This is on the assumption that there is no simpler explanation for NDEs.) In other words, the soul would be what you call “an emergent product of the brain”. If this sounds far-fetched, it is no more far-fetched than the idea that there is an immaterial “separate entity” already planted in our brain. If your God can design the latter, he can certainly design the former, as summarized below. But as always, I must stress that I am only looking for possible explanations. I am not stating a belief.

dhw: The compromise leaves open the source of the intelligent cell and the question of an afterlife (NDEs), but it removes the dichotomy between materialism and dualism in the same way as we removed the argument against free will: the cells are unique to us, and what we call the soul (the sum of all the immaterial attributes that give us our individual identities) emerges from the combined intelligences and experiences undergone by the different cell communities that make up our material selves. Theistic version: instead of giving us a soul, your God gave us the means to create our own soul.

DAVID: I remember all of this, and accept none of it with God in charge, instructing cells how to react.

dhw: Exit free will. Enter your “humanized” control freak of a God. And your comment does not explain your opposition to my compromise: i.e. please tell us why you think your God is incapable of inventing a living biological machine which produces intelligence in the “emergent” manner you have described (= theistic materialism), but instead has to create two separate entities (= theistic dualism).

DAVID: It is where the science facts lead me. They lead me to recognize the automaticity of cells and reject your cell committees. NDE's requires a two part soul. and finally I know God is nothing like a human. but you do.

The “science facts” can’t explain life or consciousness, and it is absurd to claim that science leads to the rejection of the intelligent cell theory which even you recognize as 50% possible. Nor do scientific facts tell us there is a two part-organism consisting of a material self and a separate immaterial self planted there by an unknown designer. Nor do scientific facts tell us (despite your claim to “know” it) that the unknown designer is nothing like a human – although he probably has thought patterns and emotions similar to ours – but is a control freak who has just one purpose in mind and who controls and directly designs millions of life forms that have no connection with his purpose. The only part of your theory which I would agree is based on science is the claim that the complexities of life are so immense that design is a logical conclusion. This is why, in all our discussions, and in all my own alternative explanations of evolution and of life and consciousness, I allow for a designer. It is only when we go back to “first cause” that I list the other options.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 03, 2021, 14:58 (1420 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: A dead brain is the same material as a live brain but only a live brain thinks. How do you explain the difference?

dhw: Nobody on this planet can explain the difference. But even if we accept the existence of an unknown designer, how does that exclude the possibility that just like humans creating a material machine to produce artificial intelligence, your God created a biological machine to do produce "natural" intelligence, i.e. the cell/cell communities, from which both life and consciousness emerge as “the result of all the biological interactions of all cells in concert”, as you have described the process?

Why design an independent machine when it is easy to do the job yourself? Your every intent in this vein is to reduce God's image and value.


DAVID: Have you forgotten NDE's. That is what forces the concept of soul from the studies reported, no Bible story needed.

dhw: In the summary of my theory (see below), I specifically pointed out that “the compromise leaves open the source of the intelligent cell and the question of an afterlife (NDEs).” You also know perfectly well that psychic experiences, including NDEs, are an essential element of my agnosticism. However, since you ask, the compromise that I offered elsewhere was related to the fact that theoretically one could witness all events that have ever happened on Earth if one were to look at our planet from billions and billions of miles away with a mighty powerful telescope. The image never dies. Theoretically one might extend this to the possibility that what emerges from the brain – the immaterial products – might also live on. (This is on the assumption that there is no simpler explanation for NDEs.) In other words, the soul would be what you call “an emergent product of the brain”. If this sounds far-fetched, it is no more far-fetched than the idea that there is an immaterial “separate entity” already planted in our brain. If your God can design the latter, he can certainly design the former, as summarized below. But as always, I must stress that I am only looking for possible explanations. I am not stating a belief.

And I state belief based on the evidence. I don't see the above thought experiment as substantive.


DAVID: It is where the science facts lead me. They lead me to recognize the automaticity of cells and reject your cell committees. NDE's requires a two part soul. and finally I know God is nothing like a human. but you do.

dhw: The “science facts” can’t explain life or consciousness, and it is absurd to claim that science leads to the rejection of the intelligent cell theory which even you recognize as 50% possible. Nor do scientific facts tell us there is a two part-organism consisting of a material self and a separate immaterial self planted there by an unknown designer. Nor do scientific facts tell us (despite your claim to “know” it) that the unknown designer is nothing like a human – although he probably has thought patterns and emotions similar to ours – but is a control freak who has just one purpose in mind and who controls and directly designs millions of life forms that have no connection with his purpose. The only part of your theory which I would agree is based on science is the claim that the complexities of life are so immense that design is a logical conclusion. This is why, in all our discussions, and in all my own alternative explanations of evolution and of life and consciousness, I allow for a designer. It is only when we go back to “first cause” that I list the other options.

I fully understand your neutral position. And my point in this discussion is everything must come from materials. But that is only a beginning to the process to finally create life and consciousness. That requires a designer's input. There are no probable odds to support chance production.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Monday, January 04, 2021, 09:15 (1419 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: A dead brain is the same material as a live brain but only a live brain thinks. How do you explain the difference?

dhw: Nobody on this planet can explain the difference. But even if we accept the existence of an unknown designer, how does that exclude the possibility that just like humans creating a material machine to produce artificial intelligence, your God created a biological machine to do produce "natural" intelligence, i.e. the cell/cell communities, from which both life and consciousness emerge as “the result of all the biological interactions of all cells in concert”, as you have described the process?

DAVID: Why design an independent machine when it is easy to do the job yourself? Your every intent in this vein is to reduce God's image and value.

There is no attempt to reduce God’s image and value. Do tell us more about your non-humanized image of your God, and please explain why a control freak is of greater value than an inventor who gives free rein to his invention. And why is it “easier” and more “valuable” to keep stepping in to perform operation after operation on whales’ legs and hominids’ brains and pelvises (plus giving millions of courses on nest-building and camouflage and every natural wonder you can think of) than to create a single mechanism which will enable organisms to do their own designing?

DAVID: Have you forgotten NDE's. That is what forces the concept of soul from the studies reported, no Bible story needed.

dhw: In the summary of my theory (see below), I specifically pointed out that “the compromise leaves open the source of the intelligent cell and the question of an afterlife (NDEs).” You also know perfectly well that psychic experiences, including NDEs, are an essential element of my agnosticism. However, since you ask, the compromise that I offered elsewhere was related to the fact that theoretically one could witness all events that have ever happened on Earth if one were to look at our planet from billions and billions of miles away with a mighty powerful telescope. The image never dies. Theoretically one might extend this to the possibility that what emerges from the brain – the immaterial products – might also live on. (This is on the assumption that there is no simpler explanation for NDEs.) In other words, the soul would be what you call “an emergent product of the brain”. If this sounds far-fetched, it is no more far-fetched than the idea that there is an immaterial “separate entity” already planted in our brain. If your God can design the latter, he can certainly design the former, as summarized below. But as always, I must stress that I am only looking for possible explanations. I am not stating a belief.

DAVID: And I state belief based on the evidence. I don't see the above thought experiment as substantive.

What "thought experiment"? If we accept NDEs as evidence of a soul that lives on after death, why is it more "substantive" to suggest God popping a blob of his own immaterial self into every organism rather than inventing a material mechanism which will produce an immaterial self? As you say yourself,"consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain". And consciousness is pretty important for your concept of the soul, isn't it?

DAVID: It is where the science facts lead me. They lead me to recognize the automaticity of cells and reject your cell committees. NDE's requires a two part soul. and finally I know God is nothing like a human. but you do.

dhw: […] The only part of your theory which I would agree is based on science is the claim that the complexities of life are so immense that design is a logical conclusion. This is why, in all our discussions, and in all my own alternative explanations of evolution and of life and consciousness, I allow for a designer. It is only when we go back to “first cause” that I list the other options.

DAVID: I fully understand your neutral position. And my point in this discussion is everything must come from materials. But that is only a beginning to the process to finally create life and consciousness. That requires a designer's input. There are no probable odds to support chance production.

I am not defending chance. My point is that if everything comes from materials, it is perfectly logical for your God to have created materials from which intelligence emerges. That would be a theistic compromise between dualism and materialism. Your bias against God-given cellular intelligence has nothing whatsoever to do with science leading you to “recognize” the automaticity of cells, to advocate a two-part soul (or a two-part self), or to your astonishing claim that you “know” God is nothing like a human, even though you agree that he probably has thought patterns, emotions and logic similar to ours and, if I remember rightly, you even believe that our consciousness is part of his consciousness.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Monday, January 04, 2021, 17:54 (1419 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Why design an independent machine when it is easy to do the job yourself? Your every intent in this vein is to reduce God's image and value.

dhw: There is no attempt to reduce God’s image and value. Do tell us more about your non-humanized image of your God, and please explain why a control freak is of greater value than an inventor who gives free rein to his invention. And why is it “easier” and more “valuable” to keep stepping in to perform operation after operation on whales’ legs and hominids’ brains and pelvises (plus giving millions of courses on nest-building and camouflage and every natural wonder you can think of) than to create a single mechanism which will enable organisms to do their own designing?


We have two very opposite views of God's personality and intentions

DAVID: And I state belief based on the evidence. I don't see the above thought experiment as substantive.

dhw: What "thought experiment"? If we accept NDEs as evidence of a soul that lives on after death, why is it more "substantive" to suggest God popping a blob of his own immaterial self into every organism rather than inventing a material mechanism which will produce an immaterial self? As you say yourself,"consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain". And consciousness is pretty important for your concept of the soul, isn't it?

I think we live in God's consciousness and He has given us some of His


DAVID: It is where the science facts lead me. They lead me to recognize the automaticity of cells and reject your cell committees. NDE's requires a two part soul. and finally I know God is nothing like a human. but you do.

dhw: […] The only part of your theory which I would agree is based on science is the claim that the complexities of life are so immense that design is a logical conclusion. This is why, in all our discussions, and in all my own alternative explanations of evolution and of life and consciousness, I allow for a designer. It is only when we go back to “first cause” that I list the other options.

DAVID: I fully understand your neutral position. And my point in this discussion is everything must come from materials. But that is only a beginning to the process to finally create life and consciousness. That requires a designer's input. There are no probable odds to support chance production.

dhw: I am not defending chance. My point is that if everything comes from materials, it is perfectly logical for your God to have created materials from which intelligence emerges. That would be a theistic compromise between dualism and materialism.

It is your logic, not mine. The cells act intelligently through God's instructions

dhw: Your bias against God-given cellular intelligence has nothing whatsoever to do with science leading you to “recognize” the automaticity of cells,

The automaticity is obvious. You invoke weak evidence of innate cellular intelligence as your gross bias.

dhw: to advocate a two-part soul (or a two-part self), or to your astonishing claim that you “know” God is nothing like a human,

You are an amazing theologian. They know God is not anything like us, Adler certainly included. From non-belief you develop all sorts of wild concepts of Him, especially humanizing.

dhw: even though you agree that he probably has thought patterns, emotions and logic similar to ours and, if I remember rightly, you even believe that our consciousness is part of his consciousness.

Yes, consciousness is a gift from God, but I fully agree it has to arise from material which lives, with life another gift from God. The chain of life from the original bacteria to us is the only reason we are here. Life only comes from life, and it is glaringly obvious it didn't pop up spontaneously from any ordinary matter.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Tuesday, January 05, 2021, 11:38 (1418 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Why design an independent machine when it is easy to do the job yourself? Your every intent in this vein is to reduce God's image and value.

dhw: There is no attempt to reduce God’s image and value. Do tell us more about your non-humanized image of your God, and please explain why a control freak is of greater value than an inventor who gives free rein to his invention. And why is it “easier” and more “valuable” to keep stepping in to perform operation after operation on whales’ legs and hominids’ brains and pelvises (plus giving millions of courses on nest-building and camouflage and every natural wonder you can think of) than to create a single mechanism which will enable organisms to do their own designing?

DAVID: We have two very opposite views of God's personality and intentions.

Why won’t you tell us more about your interpretation of God’s “image and value” and personality? And why won’t you tell us why millions of direct operations are “easier” than the invention of a single mechanism to make all the changes?

DAVID: And I state belief based on the evidence. I don't see the above thought experiment as substantive.
And:
DAVID: I think we live in God's consciousness and He has given us some of His.

So why is that more “substantive” than your God inventing a mechanism which will produce consciousness similar to his? (NB: if he gives us some of His consciousness, then we have all the more reason to believe that he and we probably have similar thought patterns, emotions etc. Please do not ignore this parenthesis!)

dhw: […] My point is that if everything comes from materials, it is perfectly logical for your God to have created materials from which intelligence emerges. That would be a theistic compromise between dualism and materialism.

DAVID: It is your logic, not mine. The cells act intelligently through God's instructions.

Your statement of your belief does not make my proposal illogical.

dhw: Your bias against God-given cellular intelligence has nothing whatsoever to do with science leading you to “recognize” the automaticity of cells….[continued below]

DAVID: The automaticity is obvious. You invoke weak evidence of innate cellular intelligence as your gross bias.

It is/was not “obvious” to such distinguished scientists as McLintock, Margulis and Shapiro, all of whom had/have no doubt that cells are sentient, cognitive beings. (For more names, see references on Wikipedia, under “Microbial Intelligence”.) NB: I acknowledge that what I am offering is a theory, not a proven fact. I would never presume, as you seem to do, that science only supports one interpretation out of multiple possibilities.

dhw: [continued from above] …..to advocate a two-part soul (or a two-part self), or to your astonishing claim that you “know” God is nothing like a human.

DAVID: You are an amazing theologian. They know God is not anything like us, Adler certainly included. From non-belief you develop all sorts of wild concepts of Him, especially humanizing.

Nobody “knows” even if God exists, let alone what he is like. We can only speculate, which is why I offer different alternatives, all of which you agree are logical - just as you agree that your God probably has thought patterns etc. similar to ours, so do please stop pretending you never said so.

dhw: […] if I remember rightly, you even believe that our consciousness is part of his consciousness.

DAVID: Yes, consciousness is a gift from God, but I fully agree it has to arise from material which lives, with life another gift from God.

I don’t have a problem with this belief. How does it run counter to the theory that your God designed materials from which consciousness would emerge – just as humans have built machines from which artificial intelligence emerges – i.e. in your own words: “consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain”?

DAVID: The chain of life from the original bacteria to us is the only reason we are here. Life only comes from life, and it is glaringly obvious it didn't pop up spontaneously from any ordinary matter.

I agree. And the chain of life from the original bacteria is the only reason why ALL life forms were or are here. And I agree that life only comes from life, except for its unknown origin. And I agree with the logic that even the first living cells are too complex to have popped up spontaneously. That is why I accept the logic of the design theory. I remain agnostic, however, because I cannot regard the mystery of life and consciousness as having been solved by creating an even greater mystery in the form of a living, conscious, unknown and sourceless “being” who designed them.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Tuesday, January 05, 2021, 14:03 (1418 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: We have two very opposite views of God's personality and intentions.

dhw: Why won’t you tell us more about your interpretation of God’s “image and value” and personality? And why won’t you tell us why millions of direct operations are “easier” than the invention of a single mechanism to make all the changes?

God is all purpose with no self-aggrandizing intents. As a designer myself it is easier to do it directly than hand it off to a secondhand design mechanism which will have to have an enormous set of instructions to produce proper results.

DAVID: I think we live in God's consciousness and He has given us some of His.

dhw: So why is that more “substantive” than your God inventing a mechanism which will produce consciousness similar to his? (NB: if he gives us some of His consciousness, then we have all the more reason to believe that he and we probably have similar thought patterns, emotions etc. Please do not ignore this parenthesis!)

As usual I'll accept logic. I don't think He does anything to satisfy His personal emotional needs. He has none in my opinion.


dhw: […] My point is that if everything comes from materials, it is perfectly logical for your God to have created materials from which intelligence emerges. That would be a theistic compromise between dualism and materialism.

DAVID: It is your logic, not mine. The cells act intelligently through God's instructions.

dhw: Your statement of your belief does not make my proposal illogical.

You have our belief, I have mine, each logical to each of us.

dhw: [continued from above] …..to advocate a two-part soul (or a two-part self), or to your astonishing claim that you “know” God is nothing like a human.

DAVID: You are an amazing theologian. They know God is not anything like us, Adler certainly included. From non-belief you develop all sorts of wild concepts of Him, especially humanizing.

dhw: Nobody “knows” even if God exists, let alone what he is like. We can only speculate, which is why I offer different alternatives, all of which you agree are logical - just as you agree that your God probably has thought patterns etc. similar to ours, so do please stop pretending you never said so.

My comments are not set in stone. I have a right to alter your misinterpretations of my
comments.


dhw: […] if I remember rightly, you even believe that our consciousness is part of his consciousness.

DAVID: Yes, consciousness is a gift from God, but I fully agree it has to arise from material which lives, with life another gift from God.

dhw: I don’t have a problem with this belief. How does it run counter to the theory that your God designed materials from which consciousness would emerge – just as humans have built machines from which artificial intelligence emerges – i.e. in your own words: “consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain”?

AI is a weak example. Emergence requires the invention of life. Only God does that.


DAVID: The chain of life from the original bacteria to us is the only reason we are here. Life only comes from life, and it is glaringly obvious it didn't pop up spontaneously from any ordinary matter.

dhw: I agree. And the chain of life from the original bacteria is the only reason why ALL life forms were or are here. And I agree that life only comes from life, except for its unknown origin. And I agree with the logic that even the first living cells are too complex to have popped up spontaneously. That is why I accept the logic of the design theory. I remain agnostic, however, because I cannot regard the mystery of life and consciousness as having been solved by creating an even greater mystery in the form of a living, conscious, unknown and sourceless “being” who designed them.

And I fully accept your manifesto of agnosticism, short as it is of accepting a designer. Design without a designer is an empty position.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Wednesday, January 06, 2021, 09:02 (1417 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Why won’t you tell us more about your interpretation of God’s “image and value” and personality? And why won’t you tell us why millions of direct operations are “easier” than the invention of a single mechanism to make all the changes?

DAVID: God is all purpose with no self-aggrandizing intents. As a designer myself it is easier to do it directly than hand it off to a secondhand design mechanism which will have to have an enormous set of instructions to produce proper results.

But you have your God preprogramming every undabbled design in the history of life. That’s a pretty enormous set of instructions, isn’t it? In my theory, there are no instructions at all. Just as humans use their intelligence to invent new things, so too would other intelligent organisms. What are your criteria for “proper results”? If your God wanted a free-for-all, then a free-for-all would be the proper result. “All purpose” sounds convincing, except that you refuse to go beyond the one and only purpose of designing humans plus food supply. (See “Miscellany” and elsewhere for your illogical combination of beliefs.) “Self aggrandizing” is of course possible (he wants humans to worship him and admire his works) but creating a free-for-all, and wanting something he can watch with interest to fill the eternal void, is not self-aggrandizing.

DAVID: I think we live in God's consciousness and He has given us some of His.

dhw: So why is that more “substantive” than your God inventing a mechanism which will produce consciousness similar to his? (NB: if he gives us some of His consciousness, then we have all the more reason to believe that he and we probably have similar thought patterns, emotions etc. Please do not ignore this parenthesis!)

DAVID: As usual I'll accept logic. I don't think He does anything to satisfy His personal emotional needs. He has none in my opinion.

If you’ll accept logic, then you will have to accept that it is perfectly feasible to argue that if our part of his consciousness produces certain thought patterns and emotions, they may well be similar to his own. Your opinion does not change the logic of the argument.

dhw: […] My point is that if everything comes from materials, it is perfectly logical for your God to have created materials from which intelligence emerges. That would be a theistic compromise between dualism and materialism.

DAVID: It is your logic, not mine. The cells act intelligently through God's instructions.

dhw: Your statement of your belief does not make my proposal illogical.

DAVID: You have your belief, I have mine, each logical to each of us.

Mine is not a belief but a proposal, and I invite you to challenge its logic. Your only response is to reiterate your belief!

dhw: […] your astonishing claim that you “know” God is nothing like a human.

DAVID: You are an amazing theologian. They know God is not anything like us, Adler certainly included. From non-belief you develop all sorts of wild concepts of Him, especially humanizing.

dhw: Nobody “knows” even if God exists, let alone what he is like. We can only speculate, which is why I offer different alternatives, all of which you agree are logical - just as you agree that your God probably has thought patterns etc. similar to ours, so do please stop pretending you never said so.

DAVID: My comments are not set in stone. I have a right to alter your misinterpretations of my comments.

How can anyone possibly misinterpret the statement that “He and we probably have similar thought patterns and emotions beyond just simple logical thought”? But I’m pleased to hear that your comments are not set in stone. That is why I continue to challenge them – though in this case, you have my full support!

dhw: […] if I remember rightly, you even believe that our consciousness is part of his consciousness.

DAVID: Yes, consciousness is a gift from God, but I fully agree it has to arise from material which lives, with life another gift from God.

dhw: I don’t have a problem with this belief. How does it run counter to the theory that your God designed materials from which consciousness would emerge – just as humans have built machines from which artificial intelligence emerges – i.e. in your own words: bb“consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain”?

DAVID: AI is a weak example. Emergence requires the invention of life. Only God does that.

I am not discounting God! I am proposing (theistic version) that he designed materials from which both life and consciousness emerge. This = theistic materialism. What is your objection?

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Wednesday, January 06, 2021, 14:57 (1417 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: God is all purpose with no self-aggrandizing intents. As a designer myself it is easier to do it directly than hand it off to a secondhand design mechanism which will have to have an enormous set of instructions to produce proper results.

dhw: But you have your God preprogramming every undabbled design in the history of life. That’s a pretty enormous set of instructions, isn’t it? In my theory, there are no instructions at all. Just as humans use their intelligence to invent new things, so too would other intelligent organisms. What are your criteria for “proper results”? If your God wanted a free-for-all, then a free-for-all would be the proper result.

Preprogramming is just one possibility, direct design the other. The complexity requires careful design of all new stages.

dhw: “All purpose” sounds convincing, except that you refuse to go beyond the one and only purpose of designing humans plus food supply. (See “Miscellany” and elsewhere for your illogical combination of beliefs.) “Self aggrandizing” is of course possible (he wants humans to worship him and admire his works) but creating a free-for-all, and wanting something he can watch with interest to fill the eternal void, is not self-aggrandizing.

Why does He need to be human-like with things to watch? Your usual minimizing of God.

DAVID: As usual I'll accept logic. I don't think He does anything to satisfy His personal emotional needs. He has none in my opinion.

If you’ll accept logic, then you will have to accept that it is perfectly feasible to argue that if our part of his consciousness produces certain thought patterns and emotions, they may well be similar to his own. Your opinion does not change the logic of the argument.

Logic tells us that His degree of consciousness may be vastly superior to ours and we may have a simple version of it, with n o direct comparisons possible.


dhw: […] your astonishing claim that you “know” God is nothing like a human.

DAVID: You are an amazing theologian. They know God is not anything like us, Adler certainly included. From non-belief you develop all sorts of wild concepts of Him, especially humanizing.

dhw: Nobody “knows” even if God exists, let alone what he is like. We can only speculate, which is why I offer different alternatives, all of which you agree are logical - just as you agree that your God probably has thought patterns etc. similar to ours, so do please stop pretending you never said so.

DAVID: My comments are not set in stone. I have a right to alter your misinterpretations of my comments.

dhw: How can anyone possibly misinterpret the statement that “He and we probably have similar thought patterns and emotions beyond just simple logical thought”? But I’m pleased to hear that your comments are not set in stone. That is why I continue to challenge them – though in this case, you have my full support!

Thank you.


dhw: […] if I remember rightly, you even believe that our consciousness is part of his consciousness.

DAVID: Yes, consciousness is a gift from God, but I fully agree it has to arise from material which lives, with life another gift from God.

dhw: I don’t have a problem with this belief. How does it run counter to the theory that your God designed materials from which consciousness would emerge – just as humans have built machines from which artificial intelligence emerges – i.e. in your own words: bb“consciousness is an emergent product of the living brain”?

DAVID: AI is a weak example. Emergence requires the invention of life. Only God does that.

dhw: I am not discounting God! I am proposing (theistic version) that he designed materials from which both life and consciousness emerge. This = theistic materialism. What is your objection?

Life and consciousness are both immaterial aspects of the materials God used. That is dualism, not "theistic materialism".

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Thursday, January 07, 2021, 09:18 (1416 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: God is all purpose with no self-aggrandizing intents. As a designer myself it is easier to do it directly than hand it off to a secondhand design mechanism which will have to have an enormous set of instructions to produce proper results.

dhw: But you have your God preprogramming every undabbled design in the history of life. That’s a pretty enormous set of instructions, isn’t it? In my theory, there are no instructions at all. Just as humans use their intelligence to invent new things, so too would other intelligent organisms. What are your criteria for “proper results”? If your God wanted a free-for-all, then a free-for-all would be the proper result.

DAVID: Preprogramming is just one possibility, direct design the other. The complexity requires careful design of all new stages.

I specified “undabbled” (dabbling = direct design). Every single programme would have had to contain detailed instructions, whereas cellular intelligence would require no instructions at all. See your misleading statement above, now bolded.

dhw: “All purpose” sounds convincing, except that you refuse to go beyond the one and only purpose of designing humans plus food supply. (See “Miscellany” and elsewhere for your illogical combination of beliefs.) “Self aggrandizing” is of course possible (he wants humans to worship him and admire his works) but creating a free-for-all, and wanting something he can watch with interest to fill the eternal void, is not self-aggrandizing.

DAVID: Why does He need to be human-like with things to watch? Your usual minimizing of God.

You emphasize that your God is “all purpose”, and you refuse to discuss what his purpose might be. Even if his one and only purpose was to design H. sapiens, he must have had a reason for doing so! There is no “minimizing” involved. You have said that you are sure he watches us with interest. So what is your logical objection to the proposal that he wanted to create something he could watch with interest?

DAVID: As usual I'll accept logic. I don't think He does anything to satisfy His personal emotional needs. He has none in my opinion.

dhw: If you’ll accept logic, then you will have to accept that it is perfectly feasible to argue that if our part of his consciousness produces certain thought patterns and emotions, they may well be similar to his own. Your opinion does not change the logic of the argument.

DAVID: Logic tells us that His degree of consciousness may be vastly superior to ours and we may have a simple version of it, with n o direct comparisons possible.

Of course his degree of consciousness/intelligence must be vastly superior to ours (if he exists). Does anyone seriously believe that we can create a universe that will spawn life? But that does not mean he cannot have thought patterns and emotions similar to ours, as you have so rightly pointed out in the past.

DAVID: My comments are not set in stone. I have a right to alter your misinterpretations of my comments.

dhw: How can anyone possibly misinterpret the statement that “He and we probably have similar thought patterns and emotions beyond just simple logical thought”? But I’m pleased to hear that your comments are not set in stone. That is why I continue to challenge them – though in this case, you have my full support!

DAVID: Thank you.

I must thank you for the above comment in bold, which explicitly justifies our probing into God’s possible “humanized” purposes for creating life.

DAVID: Emergence requires the invention of life. Only God does that.

dhw: I am not discounting God! I am proposing (theistic version) that he designed materials from which both life and consciousness emerge. This = theistic materialism. What is your objection?

DAVID: Life and consciousness are both immaterial aspects of the materials God used. That is dualism, not "theistic materialism".

If life and consciousness emerge from materials, we have materialism. If life and consciousness are separate “entities” from the materials, we have dualism. What I have proposed is a compromise between the two theories. Theistic version: your God created a material machine which generates life and consciousness. We leave open the question of whether what is generated (the immaterial living and conscious “self”) can survive the death of the machine. As far as I know, most materialists reject the concept of a God and therefore rely on chance as the creator of the original “machine”. They would almost certainly reject the possibility of an afterlife. What is your objection?

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 07, 2021, 14:38 (1416 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Thursday, January 07, 2021, 14:50

DAVID: Preprogramming is just one possibility, direct design the other. The complexity requires careful design of all new stages.

dhw: I specified “undabbled” (dabbling = direct design). Every single programme would have had to contain detailed instructions, whereas cellular intelligence would require no instructions at all. See your misleading statement above, now bolded.

So you want cells to forge ahead on their own designing for the future to make new different species? God doesn't need a book of instructions. He always knows exactly what to do.


DAVID: As usual I'll accept logic. I don't think He does anything to satisfy His personal emotional needs. He has none in my opinion.

dhw: If you’ll accept logic, then you will have to accept that it is perfectly feasible to argue that if our part of his consciousness produces certain thought patterns and emotions, they may well be similar to his own. Your opinion does not change the logic of the argument.

DAVID: Logic tells us that His degree of consciousness may be vastly superior to ours and we may have a simple version of it, with n o direct comparisons possible.

dhw: Of course his degree of consciousness/intelligence must be vastly superior to ours (if he exists). Does anyone seriously believe that we can create a universe that will spawn life? But that does not mean he cannot have thought patterns and emotions similar to ours, as you have so rightly pointed out in the past.

He may, but we don't know if the thought is true.


DAVID: My comments are not set in stone. I have a right to alter your misinterpretations of my comments.

dhw: How can anyone possibly misinterpret the statement that “He and we probably have similar thought patterns and emotions beyond just simple logical thought”? But I’m pleased to hear that your comments are not set in stone. That is why I continue to challenge them – though in this case, you have my full support!

DAVID: Thank you.

dhw: I must thank you for the above comment in bold, which explicitly justifies our probing into God’s possible “humanized” purposes for creating life.

DAVID: Emergence requires the invention of life. Only God does that.

dhw: I am not discounting God! I am proposing (theistic version) that he designed materials from which both life and consciousness emerge. This = theistic materialism. What is your objection?

DAVID: Life and consciousness are both immaterial aspects of the materials God used. That is dualism, not "theistic materialism".

dhw: If life and consciousness emerge from materials, we have materialism. If life and consciousness are separate “entities” from the materials, we have dualism. What I have proposed is a compromise between the two theories. Theistic version: your God created a material machine which generates life and consciousness. We leave open the question of whether what is generated (the immaterial living and conscious “self”) can survive the death of the machine. As far as I know, most materialists reject the concept of a God and therefore rely on chance as the creator of the original “machine”. They would almost certainly reject the possibility of an afterlife. What is your objection?

None: if life and consciousness exist we have clearly dualism, and it does come out of material substance. To repeat, life itself is an immaterial phenomenon, and consciousness certainly is.

Free Will: another view of consciousness

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 07, 2021, 14:59 (1416 days ago) @ David Turell

From a book review and more:

https://mindmatters.ai/2021/01/can-our-minds-extend-beyond-our-bodies/

"Well, here’s a fun coffee break challenge offered by Daniel J. Siegel, M.D., the author of Mind: A Journey to the Heart of Being Human (Norton Series on Interpersonal Neurobiology) (2016):

"… our mind is not simply our perception of experiences, but those experiences themselves. Siegel argues that it’s impossible to completely disentangle our subjective view of the world from our interactions.

“'I realized if someone asked me to define the shoreline but insisted, is it the water or the sand, I would have to say the shore is both sand and sea,” says Siegel. “You can’t limit our understanding of the coastline to insist it’s one or the other. I started thinking, maybe the mind is like the coastline—some inner and inter process. Mental life for an anthropologist or sociologist is profoundly social. Your thoughts, feelings, memories, attention, what you experience in this subjective world is part of mind.”

"The definition has since been supported by research across the sciences, but much of the original idea came from mathematics. Siegel realized the mind meets the mathematical definition of a complex system in that it’s open (can influence things outside itself), chaos capable (which simply means it’s roughly randomly distributed), and non-linear (which means a small input leads to large and difficult to predict result).

"In math, complex systems are self-organizing, and Siegel believes this idea is the foundation to mental health."

"OLIVIA GOLDHILL, “SCIENTISTS SAY YOUR “MIND” ISN’T CONFINED TO YOUR BRAIN, OR EVEN YOUR BODY” AT QUARTZ:

"In a certain way, that should be reassuring. Some philosophers claim that mind is an illusion. Every month or so we hear that neuroscientists have somehow cracked the problem of consciousness, relying on one or another of the brain’s regions (the brain has many regions; you can find something new anywhere you look).

"At the end of the day, consciousness is the same conundrum it has always been: Why do you know you exist? A rock doesn’t know. Yet you both exist. What’s the difference?

"Why do you need other people to exist? A rock doesn’t care whether other rocks exist.

"We are all both sand and sea, in the sense that we are both material and immaterial. Now, self-organization theory may or may not offer significant answers but it may help some avoid the most foolish errors, like thinking that consciousness is an illusion.

"We may as well think that the number 7 is an illusion because one can’t point to a physical object and say, “There! That’s it! That’s the number 7!.”

Comment: Hard to argue with this approach.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Friday, January 08, 2021, 11:04 (1415 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Preprogramming is just one possibility, direct design the other. The complexity requires careful design of all new stages.

dhw: I specified “undabbled” (dabbling = direct design). Every single programme would have had to contain detailed instructions, whereas cellular intelligence would require no instructions at all.

DAVID: So you want cells to forge ahead on their own designing for the future to make new different species? God doesn't need a book of instructions. He always knows exactly what to do.

As usual, you insist that evolution requires a crystal ball. In my theory, cells react to current conditions – they do not design for the future. For example, pre-whales’ legs do not turn into fins before they enter the water, but they turn into fins as a result of their adaptation to new conditions. As regards instructions, of course your God would not need them! Your theory is that he provided the first cells with instructions for every undabbled life form, econiche, natural wonder etc. in the history of life! You wrote, however, that my intelligent cells would have to have “an enormous set of instructions”, whereas in fact they would not need any instructions at all, because (theistic version) your God gave them the intelligence to do their own designing.

dhw: If life and consciousness emerge from materials, we have materialism. If life and consciousness are separate “entities” from the materials, we have dualism. What I have proposed is a compromise between the two theories. Theistic version: your God created a material machine which generates life and consciousness. We leave open the question of whether what is generated (the immaterial living and conscious “self”) can survive the death of the machine. As far as I know, most materialists reject the concept of a God and therefore rely on chance as the creator of the original “machine”. They would almost certainly reject the possibility of an afterlife. What is your objection?

DAVID: None: if life and consciousness exist we have clearly dualism, and it does come out of material substance. To repeat, life itself is an immaterial phenomenon, and consciousness certainly is.

That's fine with me. There is no dispute over the immateriality of life and consciousness. The dispute is over their source. The most obvious illustration of this is the belief that the soul is a separate entity which lives on after the death of the body. According to you, the source is your God’s own immaterial consciousness, to which it returns after death. That is pure dualism. A materialist will tell you that there is no separate entity, and when the body dies, the immaterial product of its materials also dies. However, I’m pleased that you have no objection to my compromise,which removes the sharp dichotomy between the two approaches. Proposal: Life and consciousness emerge from material substances (= materialism) but they constitute the immaterial components of our identity (= dualism). Whether the mechanism whereby the immaterial emerges from the material was designed by your God or not is a matter of faith, as is belief in an afterlife of what you called "an emergent product of the living brain".

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Friday, January 08, 2021, 15:15 (1415 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: So you want cells to forge ahead on their own designing for the future to make new different species? God doesn't need a book of instructions. He always knows exactly what to do.

dhw: As usual, you insist that evolution requires a crystal ball. In my theory, cells react to current conditions – they do not design for the future. For example, pre-whales’ legs do not turn into fins before they enter the water, but they turn into fins as a result of their adaptation to new conditions. As regards instructions, of course your God would not need them! Your theory is that he provided the first cells with instructions for every undabbled life form, econiche, natural wonder etc. in the history of life! You wrote, however, that my intelligent cells would have to have “an enormous set of instructions”, whereas in fact they would not need any instructions at all, because (theistic version) your God gave them the intelligence to do their own designing.

Knowing the complexity of the physiological changes needed to solve most of the gap advances in the whale series we recognize, and recognizing how current animals adapt, we have no reason to accept your theory. I view it as wishful thinking with no basis in the biological science of evolution. Knowing needs in the future is always part of designing.


dhw: If life and consciousness emerge from materials, we have materialism. If life and consciousness are separate “entities” from the materials, we have dualism. What I have proposed is a compromise between the two theories. Theistic version: your God created a material machine which generates life and consciousness. We leave open the question of whether what is generated (the immaterial living and conscious “self”) can survive the death of the machine. As far as I know, most materialists reject the concept of a God and therefore rely on chance as the creator of the original “machine”. They would almost certainly reject the possibility of an afterlife. What is your objection?

DAVID: None: if life and consciousness exist we have clearly dualism, and it does come out of material substance. To repeat, life itself is an immaterial phenomenon, and consciousness certainly is.

dhw: That's fine with me. There is no dispute over the immateriality of life and consciousness. The dispute is over their source. The most obvious illustration of this is the belief that the soul is a separate entity which lives on after the death of the body. According to you, the source is your God’s own immaterial consciousness, to which it returns after death. That is pure dualism. A materialist will tell you that there is no separate entity, and when the body dies, the immaterial product of its materials also dies. However, I’m pleased that you have no objection to my compromise,which removes the sharp dichotomy between the two approaches. Proposal: Life and consciousness emerge from material substances (= materialism) but they constitute the immaterial components of our identity (= dualism). Whether the mechanism whereby the immaterial emerges from the material was designed by your God or not is a matter of faith, as is belief in an afterlife of what you called "an emergent product of the living brain".

Yes to each his own. I'll stick to faith in God

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Saturday, January 09, 2021, 08:47 (1414 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: So you want cells to forge ahead on their own designing for the future to make new different species? God doesn't need a book of instructions. He always knows exactly what to do.

dhw: As usual, you insist that evolution requires a crystal ball. In my theory, cells react to current conditions – they do not design for the future. For example, pre-whales’ legs do not turn into fins before they enter the water, but they turn into fins as a result of their adaptation to new conditions. As regards instructions, of course your God would not need them! Your theory is that he provided the first cells with instructions for every undabbled life form, econiche, natural wonder etc. in the history of life! You wrote, however, that my intelligent cells would have to have “an enormous set of instructions”, whereas in fact they would not need any instructions at all, because (theistic version) your God gave them the intelligence to do their own designing.

DAVID: Knowing the complexity of the physiological changes needed to solve most of the gap advances in the whale series we recognize, and recognizing how current animals adapt, we have no reason to accept your theory. I view it as wishful thinking with no basis in the biological science of evolution. Knowing needs in the future is always part of designing.

I wonder how many evolutionary biologists maintain that God changed pre-whale legs into fins before they entered the water, or that current animals adapt in anticipation of conditions that do not yet exist. I hope you will never attempt to present your theory to a gathering of evolutionary biologists or indeed to any gathering of scientists of any ilk.

DAVID: […] if life and consciousness exist we have clearly dualism, and it does come out of material substance. To repeat, life itself is an immaterial phenomenon, and consciousness certainly is.

dhw: That's fine with me. There is no dispute over the immateriality of life and consciousness. The dispute is over their source. The most obvious illustration of this is the belief that the soul is a separate entity which lives on after the death of the body. According to you, the source is your God’s own immaterial consciousness, to which it returns after death. That is pure dualism. A materialist will tell you that there is no separate entity, and when the body dies, the immaterial product of its materials also dies. However, I’m pleased that you have no objection to my compromise,which removes the sharp dichotomy between the two approaches. Proposal: Life and consciousness emerge from material substances (= materialism) but they constitute the immaterial components of our identity (= dualism). Whether the mechanism whereby the immaterial emerges from the material was designed by your God or not is a matter of faith, as is belief in an afterlife of what you called "an emergent product of the living brain".

DAVID: Yes to each his own. I'll stick to faith in God.

I’m delighted that you accept my compromise solution to the dualism v materialism debate, which fits in so perfectly with your own firmly stated belief that consciousness is “an emergent product of the brain”, and of course I accept your faith in God as the designer of this remarkable machine.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 09, 2021, 19:31 (1414 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: So you want cells to forge ahead on their own designing for the future to make new different species? God doesn't need a book of instructions. He always knows exactly what to do.

dhw: As usual, you insist that evolution requires a crystal ball. In my theory, cells react to current conditions – they do not design for the future. For example, pre-whales’ legs do not turn into fins before they enter the water, but they turn into fins as a result of their adaptation to new conditions. As regards instructions, of course your God would not need them! Your theory is that he provided the first cells with instructions for every undabbled life form, econiche, natural wonder etc. in the history of life! You wrote, however, that my intelligent cells would have to have “an enormous set of instructions”, whereas in fact they would not need any instructions at all, because (theistic version) your God gave them the intelligence to do their own designing.

DAVID: Knowing the complexity of the physiological changes needed to solve most of the gap advances in the whale series we recognize, and recognizing how current animals adapt, we have no reason to accept your theory. I view it as wishful thinking with no basis in the biological science of evolution. Knowing needs in the future is always part of designing.

dhw: I wonder how many evolutionary biologists maintain that God changed pre-whale legs into fins before they entered the water, or that current animals adapt in anticipation of conditions that do not yet exist. I hope you will never attempt to present your theory to a gathering of evolutionary biologists or indeed to any gathering of scientists of any ilk.

The ilk I represent is the ID ilk, full of qualified scientists that I quote here. Surprise!! They believe everything is designed. I wish you would read their books


DAVID: […] if life and consciousness exist we have clearly dualism, and it does come out of material substance. To repeat, life itself is an immaterial phenomenon, and consciousness certainly is.

dhw: That's fine with me. There is no dispute over the immateriality of life and consciousness. The dispute is over their source. The most obvious illustration of this is the belief that the soul is a separate entity which lives on after the death of the body. According to you, the source is your God’s own immaterial consciousness, to which it returns after death. That is pure dualism. A materialist will tell you that there is no separate entity, and when the body dies, the immaterial product of its materials also dies. However, I’m pleased that you have no objection to my compromise,which removes the sharp dichotomy between the two approaches. Proposal: Life and consciousness emerge from material substances (= materialism) but they constitute the immaterial components of our identity (= dualism). Whether the mechanism whereby the immaterial emerges from the material was designed by your God or not is a matter of faith, as is belief in an afterlife of what you called "an emergent product of the living brain".

DAVID: Yes to each his own. I'll stick to faith in God.

dhw: I’m delighted that you accept my compromise solution to the dualism v materialism debate, which fits in so perfectly with your own firmly stated belief that consciousness is “an emergent product of the brain”, and of course I accept your faith in God as the designer of this remarkable machine.

Yes, design fits.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Sunday, January 10, 2021, 09:39 (1413 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Knowing the complexity of the physiological changes needed to solve most of the gap advances in the whale series we recognize, and recognizing how current animals adapt, we have no reason to accept your theory. I view it as wishful thinking with no basis in the biological science of evolution. Knowing needs in the future is always part of designing.

dhw: I wonder how many evolutionary biologists maintain that God changed pre-whale legs into fins before they entered the water, or that current animals adapt in anticipation of conditions that do not yet exist. I hope you will never attempt to present your theory to a gathering of evolutionary biologists or indeed to any gathering of scientists of any ilk.

DAVID: The ilk I represent is the ID ilk, full of qualified scientists that I quote here. Surprise!! They believe everything is designed. I wish you would read their books.

You have switched from your theory that your God designed changes IN ANTICIPATION of changing conditions to the general theory of design. I have no problem with the design theory as such, and you know it! The problem is with your belief that your God personally preprogrammed or dabbled every life form, econiche, natural wonder etc., and that he did so in advance of requirements – e.g. he turned pre-whale legs into fins before whales entered the water – and that every single design was part of his one and only goal of evolving [=directly designing] humans.” Unfortunately it becomes impossible to avoid raising this subject again when you so radically distort my objections to your theory of evolution.Even you have told us that your ID folks try to avoid mentioning God!

dhw: […] Proposal: Life and consciousness emerge from material substances (= materialism) but they constitute the immaterial components of our identity (= dualism). Whether the mechanism whereby the immaterial emerges from the material was designed by your God or not is a matter of faith, as is belief in an afterlife of what you called "an emergent product of the living brain".

DAVID: Yes to each his own. I'll stick to faith in God.

dhw: I’m delighted that you accept my compromise solution to the dualism v materialism debate, which fits in so perfectly with your own firmly stated belief that consciousness is “an emergent product of the brain”, and of course I accept your faith in God as the designer of this remarkable machine.

DAVID: Yes, design fits.

It does indeed. What did the designing and how it was done remain open questions, as they do with the whole history of evolution, but I accept your faith in God as the designer even if I can’t share it. We seem to be in agreement. :-)

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 10, 2021, 19:03 (1413 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I wonder how many evolutionary biologists maintain that God changed pre-whale legs into fins before they entered the water, or that current animals adapt in anticipation of conditions that do not yet exist. I hope you will never attempt to present your theory to a gathering of evolutionary biologists or indeed to any gathering of scientists of any ilk.

DAVID: The ilk I represent is the ID ilk, full of qualified scientists that I quote here. Surprise!! They believe everything is designed. I wish you would read their books.

dhw: You have switched from your theory that your God designed changes IN ANTICIPATION of changing conditions to the general theory of design. I have no problem with the design theory as such, and you know it! The problem is with your belief that your God personally preprogrammed or dabbled every life form, econiche, natural wonder etc., and that he did so in advance of requirements – e.g. he turned pre-whale legs into fins before whales entered the water – and that every single design was part of his one and only goal of evolving [=directly designing] humans.” Unfortunately it becomes impossible to avoid raising this subject again when you so radically distort my objections to your theory of evolution. Even you have told us that your ID folks try to avoid mentioning God!

I have a firm belief God is the designer. The ID folks just don't mention Him by name as the designer, but since mostly they are devout Christians, the inference is obvious. Some of the fellows at Discovery Institute are devout Jews!!! You admit to the need for design. That logically requires a designing mind, a step you are not able to take, logical as it is.


dhw: […] Proposal: Life and consciousness emerge from material substances (= materialism) but they constitute the immaterial components of our identity (= dualism). Whether the mechanism whereby the immaterial emerges from the material was designed by your God or not is a matter of faith, as is belief in an afterlife of what you called "an emergent product of the living brain".

DAVID: Yes to each his own. I'll stick to faith in God.

dhw: I’m delighted that you accept my compromise solution to the dualism v materialism debate, which fits in so perfectly with your own firmly stated belief that consciousness is “an emergent product of the brain”, and of course I accept your faith in God as the designer of this remarkable machine.

DAVID: Yes, design fits.

It does indeed. What did the designing and how it was done remain open questions, as they do with the whole history of evolution, but I accept your faith in God as the designer even if I can’t share it. We seem to be in agreement. :-)

Yes: ;-)

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Monday, January 11, 2021, 10:47 (1412 days ago) @ David Turell

Now that we have agreed on a possible compromise between dualism and materialism, we have left Egnor completely. This exchange should really be part of the “Miscellany” thread, which covers various aspects of evolution, but it’s too long to put in there.

dhw: I wonder how many evolutionary biologists maintain that God changed pre-whale legs into fins before they entered the water, or that current animals adapt in anticipation of conditions that do not yet exist. I hope you will never attempt to present your theory to a gathering of evolutionary biologists or indeed to any gathering of scientists of any ilk.

DAVID: The ilk I represent is the ID ilk, full of qualified scientists that I quote here. Surprise!! They believe everything is designed. I wish you would read their books.

dhw: You have switched from your theory that your God designed changes IN ANTICIPATION of changing conditions to the general theory of design. I have no problem with the design theory as such, and you know it! The problem is with your belief that your God personally preprogrammed or dabbled every life form, econiche, natural wonder etc., and that he did so in advance of requirements – e.g. he turned pre-whale legs into fins before whales entered the water – and that every single design was part of his one and only goal of evolving [=directly designing] humans.” Unfortunately it becomes impossible to avoid raising this subject again when you so radically distort my objections to your theory of evolution. Even you have told us that your ID folks try to avoid mentioning God!

DAVID: I have a firm belief God is the designer. The ID folks just don't mention Him by name as the designer, but since mostly they are devout Christians, the inference is obvious. Some of the fellows at Discovery Institute are devout Jews!!! You admit to the need for design. That logically requires a designing mind, a step you are not able to take, logical as it is.

For the umpteenth time, I do NOT have a problem with the design argument! Why do you keep forcing me to repeat what I DO have a problem with? How many of your ID scientists claim that your/their God changed pre-whale legs into fins before the pre-whales entered the water, and that your/their God preprogrammed or directly dabbled every single life form, econiche, natural wonder etc. in life’s history, 99% of which had no connection with humans although all of them were part of your/their God’s one and only goal of evolving [= directly designing] humans? Please don’t restart the game of picking on individual premises. It is the combination of premises that makes no sense – hence your acknowledgement that you have no idea why your God would have chosen your version of his method to fulfil your version of his purpose. However, that is what you believe, and we agreed to leave it at that. Let’s stick to that agreement.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Monday, January 11, 2021, 15:01 (1412 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I have a firm belief God is the designer. The ID folks just don't mention Him by name as the designer, but since mostly they are devout Christians, the inference is obvious. Some of the fellows at Discovery Institute are devout Jews!!! You admit to the need for design. That logically requires a designing mind, a step you are not able to take, logical as it is.

dhw: For the umpteenth time, I do NOT have a problem with the design argument! Why do you keep forcing me to repeat what I DO have a problem with? How many of your ID scientists claim that your/their God changed pre-whale legs into fins before the pre-whales entered the water, and that your/their God preprogrammed or directly dabbled every single life form, econiche, natural wonder etc. in life’s history, 99% of which had no connection with humans although all of them were part of your/their God’s one and only goal of evolving [= directly designing] humans? Please don’t restart the game of picking on individual premises. It is the combination of premises that makes no sense – hence your acknowledgement that you have no idea why your God would have chosen your version of his method to fulfil your version of his purpose. However, that is what you believe, and we agreed to leave it at that. Let’s stick to that agreement.

You've repeated your illogical complaint again. I won't bother to answer. If I could get you to read some ID material directly, you would understand my design argument with clarity. The folks I quote are PhD's and MD's. They all think evolution is designed by an unnamed mind.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 09:13 (1411 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: For the umpteenth time, I do NOT have a problem with the design argument! Why do you keep forcing me to repeat what I DO have a problem with? How many of your ID scientists claim that your/their God changed pre-whale legs into fins before the pre-whales entered the water, and that your/their God preprogrammed or directly dabbled every single life form, econiche, natural wonder etc. in life’s history, 99% of which had no connection with humans although all of them were part of your/their God’s one and only goal of evolving [= directly designing] humans? Please don’t restart the game of picking on individual premises. It is the combination of premises that makes no sense – hence your acknowledgement that you have no idea why your God would have chosen your version of his method to fulfil your version of his purpose. However, that is what you believe, and we agreed to leave it at that. Let’s stick to that agreement.

DAVID: You've repeated your illogical complaint again. I won't bother to answer. If I could get you to read some ID material directly, you would understand my design argument with clarity. The folks I quote are PhD's and MD's. They all think evolution is designed by an unnamed mind.

Yet again, and in bolded block capitals: I ACCEPT YOUR DESIGN ARGUMENT AS BEING PERFECTLY LOGICAL, AND IT IS A MAJOR REASON WHY I CANNOT EMBRACE ATHEISM. It is the theory bolded above that I reject – namely the theory that led you to say: “You are correct. I have no idea why He uses that method.” And we agreed to leave it at that. Please leave it at that and stop pretending that my complaint is against the design argument.

Under Dualism: materialism is only as our mind sees it

QUOTE: we cannot empirically observe matter outside and independent of mind, for we are forever locked in mind. All we can observe are the contents of perception, which are inherently mental. Even the output of measurement instruments is only accessible to us insofar as it is mentally perceived.

DAVID: I can expect the comment that the material brain conjures all of these impressions, but the point is the impressions we have are second hand representations of the outside world. We only know what the brain allows us to think it is as we use our mind to drive the the brain to produce impressions and thought. The mind uses the brain as a material tool, and produces immaterial thoughts and concepts.

Yes, yes, we all know that perception is subjective. We dealt with this ages ago when discussing epistemology. And yes, yes, we use our brains to acquire information and to give material implementation to our immaterial thoughts, but nobody knows whether “we” means two separate entities working together – soul and brain – or a single entity (brain) from which emerges the phenomenon we call consciousness. That is the unresolved conflict between material and dualism, and I have offered a compromise between the two theories, which you agreed was perfectly logical.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 21:12 (1411 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: You've repeated your illogical complaint again. I won't bother to answer. If I could get you to read some ID material directly, you would understand my design argument with clarity. The folks I quote are PhD's and MD's. They all think evolution is designed by an unnamed mind.

dhw: Yet again, and in bolded block capitals: I ACCEPT YOUR DESIGN ARGUMENT AS BEING PERFECTLY LOGICAL, AND IT IS A MAJOR REASON WHY I CANNOT EMBRACE ATHEISM. It is the theory bolded above that I reject – namely the theory that led you to say: “You are correct. I have no idea why He uses that method.” And we agreed to leave it at that. Please leave it at that and stop pretending that my complaint is against the design argument.

You have agreed that we will always have the same disagreement.


Under Dualism: materialism is only as our mind sees it

QUOTE: we cannot empirically observe matter outside and independent of mind, for we are forever locked in mind. All we can observe are the contents of perception, which are inherently mental. Even the output of measurement instruments is only accessible to us insofar as it is mentally perceived.

DAVID: I can expect the comment that the material brain conjures all of these impressions, but the point is the impressions we have are second hand representations of the outside world. We only know what the brain allows us to think it is as we use our mind to drive the the brain to produce impressions and thought. The mind uses the brain as a material tool, and produces immaterial thoughts and concepts.

dhw: Yes, yes, we all know that perception is subjective. We dealt with this ages ago when discussing epistemology. And yes, yes, we use our brains to acquire information and to give material implementation to our immaterial thoughts, but nobody knows whether “we” means two separate entities working together – soul and brain – or a single entity (brain) from which emerges the phenomenon we call consciousness. That is the unresolved conflict between material and dualism, and I have offered a compromise between the two theories, which you agreed was perfectly logical.

And the appearance/emergence of consciousness with self-awareness creates a dualism: the material brain and the conscious self. Materialism seems to invent a living driver to drive the material car. No material brain can think without first producing immaterial consciousness. So there is no escape from some form and interpretation of dualism.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 09:10 (1410 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: You've repeated your illogical complaint again. I won't bother to answer. If I could get you to read some ID material directly, you would understand my design argument with clarity. The folks I quote are PhD's and MD's. They all think evolution is designed by an unnamed mind.

dhw: Yet again, and in bolded block capitals: I ACCEPT YOUR DESIGN ARGUMENT AS BEING PERFECTLY LOGICAL, AND IT IS A MAJOR REASON WHY I CANNOT EMBRACE ATHEISM. It is the theory bolded above that I reject – namely the theory that led you to say: “You are correct. I have no idea why He uses that method.” And we agreed to leave it at that. Please leave it at that and stop pretending that my complaint is against the design argument.

DAVID: You have agreed that we will always have the same disagreement.

And the disagreement is not over the design theory but over your interpretation of God’s purpose and method of achieving that purpose, which leaves you with no idea how to explain the combination. And I will not raise the subject again so long as you do not force me to do so!

Under Dualism: materialism is only as our mind sees it

QUOTE: we cannot empirically observe matter outside and independent of mind, for we are forever locked in mind. All we can observe are the contents of perception, which are inherently mental. Even the output of measurement instruments is only accessible to us insofar as it is mentally perceived.

DAVID: I can expect the comment that the material brain conjures all of these impressions, but the point is the impressions we have are second hand representations of the outside world. We only know what the brain allows us to think it is as we use our mind to drive the the brain to produce impressions and thought. The mind uses the brain as a material tool, and produces immaterial thoughts and concepts.

dhw: Yes, yes, we all know that perception is subjective. We dealt with this ages ago when discussing epistemology. And yes, yes, we use our brains to acquire information and to give material implementation to our immaterial thoughts, but nobody knows whether “we” means two separate entities working together – soul and brain – or a single entity (brain) from which emerges the phenomenon we call consciousness. That is the unresolved conflict between material and dualism, and I have offered a compromise between the two theories, which you agreed was perfectly logical.

DAVID: And the appearance/emergence of consciousness with self-awareness creates a dualism: the material brain and the conscious self. Materialism seems to invent a living driver to drive the material car. No material brain can think without first producing immaterial consciousness. So there is no escape from some form and interpretation of dualism.

Correct. And when you say no material brain can think without first PRODUCING consciousness, there is no escape from some form and interpretation of materialism. You have understood the compromise.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by David Turell @, Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 18:40 (1410 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: You have agreed that we will always have the same disagreement.

dhw: And the disagreement is not over the design theory but over your interpretation of God’s purpose and method of achieving that purpose, which leaves you with no idea how to explain the combination. And I will not raise the subject again so long as you do not force me to do so!

I can easily explain the combination by telling you it is God's choice of methodology, and He never tells me why.


Under Dualism: materialism is only as our mind sees it

QUOTE: we cannot empirically observe matter outside and independent of mind, for we are forever locked in mind. All we can observe are the contents of perception, which are inherently mental. Even the output of measurement instruments is only accessible to us insofar as it is mentally perceived.

DAVID: I can expect the comment that the material brain conjures all of these impressions, but the point is the impressions we have are second hand representations of the outside world. We only know what the brain allows us to think it is as we use our mind to drive the the brain to produce impressions and thought. The mind uses the brain as a material tool, and produces immaterial thoughts and concepts.

dhw: Yes, yes, we all know that perception is subjective. We dealt with this ages ago when discussing epistemology. And yes, yes, we use our brains to acquire information and to give material implementation to our immaterial thoughts, but nobody knows whether “we” means two separate entities working together – soul and brain – or a single entity (brain) from which emerges the phenomenon we call consciousness. That is the unresolved conflict between material and dualism, and I have offered a compromise between the two theories, which you agreed was perfectly logical.

DAVID: And the appearance/emergence of consciousness with self-awareness creates a dualism: the material brain and the conscious self. Materialism seems to invent a living driver to drive the material car. No material brain can think without first producing immaterial consciousness. So there is no escape from some form and interpretation of dualism.

dhw: Correct. And when you say no material brain can think without first PRODUCING consciousness, there is no escape from some form and interpretation of materialism. You have understood the compromise.

I don't view it so much as a compromise than a recognition of the reality of how material brains have to be part of the process.

Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE

by dhw, Thursday, January 14, 2021, 09:27 (1409 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: You have agreed that we will always have the same disagreement.

dhw: And the disagreement is not over the design theory but over your interpretation of God’s purpose and method of achieving that purpose, which leaves you with no idea how to explain the combination. And I will not raise the subject again so long as you do not force me to do so!

DAVID: I can easily explain the combination by telling you it is God's choice of methodology, and He never tells me why.

In the immortal words of John McEnroe: “You can’t be serious!” You can easily explain the logic of your belief by the fact that you have no idea why your God would have chosen the illogical combination of premises you impose on him, but that’s his fault for not telling you. You're kidding, right?:-)

DAVID: And the appearance/emergence of consciousness with self-awareness creates a dualism: the material brain and the conscious self. Materialism seems to invent a living driver to drive the material car. No material brain can think without first producing immaterial consciousness. So there is no escape from some form and interpretation of dualism.

dhw: Correct. And when you say no material brain can think without first PRODUCING consciousness, there is no escape from some form and interpretation of materialism. You have understood the compromise.

DAVID: I don't view it so much as a compromise than a recognition of the reality of how material brains have to be part of the process.

Since you claim to be a dualist who believes in two separate entities (mind/soul and brain/body), I would have thought your recognition of the materialist’s belief that consciousness - the very essence of mind/soul - is an emergent product of the brain represented a compromise. But it really doesn’t matter. My point is that the dichotomy between dualism and materialism disappears once we accept that the material produces the immaterial, the product is as real as its material source, and we have no idea how the process works or what happens to the product when its source is dead. Nor do we know how the material source first came into being.

Free Will: not rejected, redefined

by David Turell @, Wednesday, May 11, 2022, 15:46 (927 days ago) @ David Turell

Accepting a realistic view of free will:

https://psyche.co/guides/how-to-think-about-free-will-in-a-world-of-cause-and-effect?ut...

"All your choices are in a sense inevitable. A lot of the time, you might feel as though you have freedom to act as you wish (a view known as ‘voluntarism’), but taking into account your history, personality, mood and other factors, there is in fact an inevitability to everything you do.

"There’s no escaping the chain of cause and effect. Even quantum physics and the randomness of quantum causation cannot offer us an escape because the ability to act randomly is not the same as having free will.

"Having voluntarist free will would mean being entirely capricious. To act free of causes would be to act without reason. Such a freedom would be gratuitous, since the only grounds for our choice would be the power to choose itself.

"The constraints upon our choices allow for the concept of character. We would have no moral character if we did not strongly feel that there were things we simply could not do, and others we felt we must.

"Praise and blame don’t depend on absolute freedom. To accept that one has done wrong and take responsibility for it is to resolve to try not to do it again and to put right anything that went wrong. We evidently do have the capacity to do this, and that is all that matters.

"It’s useful to feel you could have done things differently, even if it’s a fiction. It is only because we reflect on the things that could so easily have been done differently if conditions or our frame of mind had been slightly different that we learn to take responsibility and do better next time.

"Don’t reject the concept of ‘free will’: rethink it. The ‘compatibilist’ conception of free will acknowledges the causal necessity of the physical world, but it also recognises that, if no one ‘made me do it’, I acted freely.

"Achieve a free will worth having by aligning your first- and second-order desires. First-order desires include wanting cake or sex or to scratch yourself; second-order desires are your desires about these desires, such as wishing to resist the desire for cake. Free beings are ones who can act on their desires about their desires, and not just automatically on their desires."

Comment: it is a reasonable approach, because it is obvious our personal background of influences always plays a role in our choices of action. Makes better sense than denying our ability to choose freely, as if our ability to choose did not exist.

Free Will: not rejected, redefined

by dhw, Thursday, May 12, 2022, 11:20 (926 days ago) @ David Turell

QUOTES: "All your choices are in a sense inevitable. A lot of the time, you might feel as though you have freedom to act as you wish (a view known as ‘voluntarism’), but taking into account your history, personality, mood and other factors, there is in fact an inevitability to everything you do."

"There’s no escaping the chain of cause and effect.”

"It’s useful to feel you could have done things differently, even if it’s a fiction.”

"Don’t reject the concept of ‘free will’: rethink it. The ‘compatibilist’ conception of free will acknowledges the causal necessity of the physical world, but it also recognises that, if no one ‘made me do it’, I acted freely."

DAVID: it is a reasonable approach, because it is obvious our personal background of influences always plays a role in our choices of action. Makes better sense than denying our ability to choose freely, as if our ability to choose did not exist.

This is all very much in line with the conclusions I tried to draw in earlier discussions. However, I do wish writers would actually provide a definition of what they mean by “free will” before embarking on such discussions. I can’t remember my own exact definition, but it was along the lines of: an entity’s conscious ability to control its decision-making process within given constraints. These were 1) outside constraints imposed by the situation or by Nature (you can’t “free-will” yourself to fly), and 2) constraints affecting the decision-making process itself, such as heredity, upbringing, education, illness, accidents, chance encounters. On the one hand, as this writer argues, we can’t escape the chain of cause and effect, so you can argue that free will is a fiction. On the other hand, you can argue that all the above influences have contributed to my identity, and my identity is mine alone. Therefore decisions are mine and mine alone (i.e. as above, no one outside of “me” made me do it), and this denotes freedom. Another all-important factor would be the source of consciousness, but since this is unknown, I would suggest that the question of whether we do or don’t have free will – as I have defined it - remains open.

Free Will: not rejected, redefined

by David Turell @, Thursday, May 12, 2022, 15:00 (926 days ago) @ dhw

QUOTES: "All your choices are in a sense inevitable. A lot of the time, you might feel as though you have freedom to act as you wish (a view known as ‘voluntarism’), but taking into account your history, personality, mood and other factors, there is in fact an inevitability to everything you do."

"There’s no escaping the chain of cause and effect.”

"It’s useful to feel you could have done things differently, even if it’s a fiction.”

"Don’t reject the concept of ‘free will’: rethink it. The ‘compatibilist’ conception of free will acknowledges the causal necessity of the physical world, but it also recognises that, if no one ‘made me do it’, I acted freely."

DAVID: it is a reasonable approach, because it is obvious our personal background of influences always plays a role in our choices of action. Makes better sense than denying our ability to choose freely, as if our ability to choose did not exist.

dhw: This is all very much in line with the conclusions I tried to draw in earlier discussions. However, I do wish writers would actually provide a definition of what they mean by “free will” before embarking on such discussions. I can’t remember my own exact definition, but it was along the lines of: an entity’s conscious ability to control its decision-making process within given constraints. These were 1) outside constraints imposed by the situation or by Nature (you can’t “free-will” yourself to fly), and 2) constraints affecting the decision-making process itself, such as heredity, upbringing, education, illness, accidents, chance encounters. On the one hand, as this writer argues, we can’t escape the chain of cause and effect, so you can argue that free will is a fiction. On the other hand, you can argue that all the above influences have contributed to my identity, and my identity is mine alone. Therefore decisions are mine and mine alone (i.e. as above, no one outside of “me” made me do it), and this denotes freedom. Another all-important factor would be the source of consciousness, but since this is unknown, I would suggest that the question of whether we do or don’t have free will – as I have defined it - remains open.

Your approach is quite thorough. Our decision making is freely done from moment to moment, but all of the influences you describe must be in play. It comes down to teh question: free of what?

Free Will: Egnor shows true Libet conclusions

by David Turell @, Monday, February 08, 2021, 14:32 (1384 days ago) @ David Turell

Libet himself said he did not refute free will:

https://mindmatters.ai/2021/02/a-reader-asks-does-neuroscience-disprove-free-will/

"He found that there was a brain wave from the cortex about a half second before the person was aware of making the decision. Libet initially interpreted this as refuting free will — it seemed that our “decisions” are determined beforehand by physical processes in the brain and we merely experience the illusion of deciding freely.

"But Libet was an excellent scientist so he tested the hypothesis that free will isn’t real by asking the volunteers to occasionally veto their decision after making it — to decide to push the button but to then immediately decide not to. He found that there was no brain wave associated with the veto — i.e., the veto was not from the brain. Thus, the veto was immaterial and independent of brain processes, and it corresponded to free will. Libet concluded that our decisions consist of two parts: a preconscious “temptation” and a conscious acceptance or veto. The temptation was associated with brain activity and might in that sense be considered involuntary (even that is problematic). But the acceptance or veto of the temptation was not determined by brain activity and appeared to be immaterial (i.e. spiritual) in origin. Libet quipped that he hadn’t proven free will per se, but he had proved “free won’t.”

***

"Libet’s research with vetoing decisions has not been tested by other researchers. Research that purports to show determinism to be true is invalid because the neurobiological correlates of vetoing a decision have not been studied since Libet. The current state of neuroscience is that free will is clearly supported by the science.

"The philosophical perspective is that (in my view) the most cogent model of the soul is that of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas. In their model, called hylemorphic dualism, there are two types of mental states — sensitive and rational. Sensitive states are sensation, perception, imagination, memory, and sensitive appetites (emotions), among others. These are tightly linked to matter and may be considered material powers. Human beings also have rational mental states, which are the powers of the intellect and the will. These abstract powers are immaterial — they are not caused by matter — and thus the will is not determined by the brain.

"The Aristotelian–Thomistic model fits Libet’s research very nicely — the material “temptation” comes from the sensitive material powers of the soul and the acceptance or veto comes from the immaterial will."

Comment: It is strange that no research has been done on Libet's second observation that an inhibitory decision has no EEG spike. As I view the soul drives the brain, there should be no spike if no action is to be taken. The delay after a go decision spike has been explained as a preparatory pause by the brain.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, November 14, 2015, 18:15 (3297 days ago) @ dhw
edited by romansh, Saturday, November 14, 2015, 18:31

dhw The above is a direct repetition of the argument that if our choices are dictated by cause and effect, we do not have free will (= determinism). Quite right. However, there are other approaches to the subject which you consider to be irrelevant, just as you consider your definition to be the only accurate one. How many more times are we going to draw these circles?-For me this is nonsense.-For a person to believe (or not) they could have done otherwise in a certain circumstance they need to have read the appropriate definitions of free will?-I think not.-Now that you are familiar with the various definitions of free will, do you believe you could have done otherwise around a certain event ... say creating this website and forum?-And here, I am not asking whether you can envisage any other past possibilities.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Sunday, November 15, 2015, 13:51 (3296 days ago) @ romansh

dhw The above is a direct repetition of the argument that if our choices are dictated by cause and effect, we do not have free will (= determinism). Quite right. However, there are other approaches to the subject which you consider to be irrelevant, just as you consider your definition to be the only accurate one. How many more times are we going to draw these circles?-ROMANSH: For me this is nonsense.
For a person to believe (or not) they could have done otherwise in a certain circumstance they need to have read the appropriate definitions of free will?
I think not.-What sort of logic is this? If they believe they could have done otherwise, they believe in free will. If they believe they could not have done otherwise, they do not believe in free will. But you tell us that they could not have done otherwise, because your definition of free will means that they don't have it. Please don't attribute your nonsense to me.-ROMANSH: Now that you are familiar with the various definitions of free will, do you believe you could have done otherwise around a certain event ... say creating this website and forum?
And here, I am not asking whether you can envisage any other past possibilities.-What you are asking is whether I believe in free will or not! How often must I repeat that I accept both sides of the argument as valid? In setting up this website I acted as if I had free will (i.e. as if I was able to do otherwise); on the level of cause and effect I acknowledge that I did not have free will (i.e. I was not able to do otherwise); and on the level of identity I acknowledge that I did have free will (i.e. I was able to do otherwise). If this is not clear to you, then I shall have to give up. -Perhaps I had better pre-empt the next repetition: when we discussed it all two months ago, you found it impossible to accept the view (which I illustrated for you with several examples) that both sides of an argument can be regarded as valid. Your inability to accept this is your problem, not mine.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Friday, November 13, 2015, 02:37 (3299 days ago) @ romansh

David: I would have to fully agree, having followed this debate. Anything can be defined into or out of contention. To each his own.
> 
> Romansh:If this is true then all conversations here are pointless David. 
> 
> Post modernism gone mad.-You completely miss the point. Unless definitions are agreed by all parties, why have conversations at all. Look for agreement.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Friday, November 13, 2015, 04:14 (3299 days ago) @ David Turell

You completely miss the point. Unless definitions are agreed by all parties, why have conversations at all. Look for agreement.-And have you been looking for agreement?-You think determinism is true yet you think it is somehow irrelevant to free will?

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Friday, November 13, 2015, 15:58 (3298 days ago) @ romansh

David: You completely miss the point. Unless definitions are agreed by all parties, why have conversations at all. Look for agreement.
> 
> Romansh: And have you been looking for agreement?
> 
> You think determinism is true yet you think it is somehow irrelevant to free will?-Definition: the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions. (Wiki)-That is not my belief at all!

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, November 14, 2015, 04:20 (3298 days ago) @ David Turell

wiki ... all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. 
> David That is not my belief at all!-If you think this part of the wiki quote is false then I don't think you can call yourself a compatibilist.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Saturday, November 14, 2015, 05:44 (3297 days ago) @ romansh

wiki ... all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. 
> > David That is not my belief at all!
> 
> Romansh: If you think this part of the wiki quote is false then I don't think you can call yourself a compatibilist.-I don't define myself. I simply have my own beliefs, whatever they might be called. I'm probably a 'lumper', not a 'splitter' like you are:->Romansh previously:-> You think determinism is true yet you think it is somehow irrelevant to free will?-> Definition: the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions. (Wiki)-That is not my belief at all! Nor am I a compatibilist:-Compatibilism is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible ideas, and that it is possible to believe both without being logically inconsistent. Compatibilists believe freedom can be present or absent in situations for reasons that have nothing to do with metaphysics. (Wiki)-I don't worry about such things. I know I have free will. I know I am the result of all the factors and processes making the universe. You may call it freedom of choice. It is all the same to me. But the above definition sounds sort of like me.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 21:14 (3300 days ago) @ dhw

dhw Your definition of free will as “the ability to act or make choices independently of the environment and the universe” makes free will an impossibility. Your insistence that cause and effect are the only possible approach also makes free will an impossibility. On this level I therefore agree that free will is an impossibility!-Not for those that believe in contra causal free will it isn't.
But if the universe is to large a concept ... I'll take independently of cause.
> -> dhw you apparently do not dispute that our identity is ours alone regardless of the influences (causes and effects)
A bacterium's identity is its ... so what? Each brick in your house has a unique identity. I will accept that fundamental particles might be identical and not have unique identities -> dhw that have helped to form it, but you believe the self to be an illusion, -Yes the "I" that has helped to form it is not as it seems. I am not a self made man thereby alleviating God of an almighty responsibility.-> dhw so presumably your belief somehow invalidates this particular approach;
To me it is irrelevant.-> dhw I agree that you have as much right to insist that cause and effect are the only possible criteria as I have to disagree with you; the two thousand year old debate is not based on a “semantic misunderstanding”, but on different views of what constitutes free will; you presumably consider your definition of free will to be accurate, and so you presumably continue to reject my own: “the ability to make conscious choices within given constraints.” 
When you insist on including coercion in your definition you are confounding free will with freedom of action
http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/freedom_of_action.html-> dhw When we last corresponded on this issue, six weeks ago, I suggested that “whether we think we have what is known as “free will” ....depends on how we define the term”. Since I accept that your definition and your cause-and-effect approach eliminate free will, and since for you the compatibilist approach and my identity approach are rabbit holes that miss the point completely (the point presumably being that nothing is independent of cause and effect, the environment and the universe), I really think this discussion has now run its circular course.-Here is Wiki's criticism of compatabilism ...->> Wiki Critics of compatibilism often focus on the definition(s) of free will: incompatibilists may agree that the compatibilists are showing something to be compatible with determinism, but they think that something ought not to be called "free will." Incompatibilists might accept the "freedom to act" as a necessary criterion for free will, but doubt that it is sufficient. Basically, they demand more of "free will". The incompatibilists believe free will refers to genuine (e.g., absolute, ultimate) alternate possibilities for beliefs, desires or actions, rather than merely counterfactual ones.-And in your requirement conscious choice as a definition. note the consciousness quagmire.-For me ...
Conscious choice is equivalent to confabulation.

A Sense of Free Will: lucid dreaming

by David Turell @, Sunday, August 27, 2023, 17:39 (454 days ago) @ BBella

This entry discussed the issue of lucid dreaming which BBella has. Present studies:

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/lucid-dream-sleep-mind-neuroscience-brain

"Most people rarely if ever realize that they’re dreaming while it’s happening, what’s known as lucid dreaming. But some enthusiasts have cultivated techniques to become self-aware in their sleep and even wrest some control over their dream selves and settings. Mazurek, 24, says that he’s gotten better at molding his lucid dreams since that first whirlwind experience, sometimes taking them as opportunities to try flying or say hi to deceased family members.

"Other lucid dreamers have used their personal virtual realities to plumb their subconscious minds for insights or feast on junk food without real-world consequences. But now, scientists have a new job for lucid dreamers: to explore their dreamscapes and report out in real time.

***

“'The special thing about lucid dreaming is that you can get even closer to dream content and in a much more controlled and systematic fashion,” says Martin Dresler, a cognitive neuroscientist at the Donders Institute in Nijmegen, Netherlands.

"Lucid dreamers who can perform assigned tasks and communicate with researchers during a dream open up tantalizing opportunities to study an otherwise untouchable realm. They are like the astronauts of the dream world, serving as envoys to the mysterious inner spaces created by slumbering minds.

***

"But there are still a lot of problems to solve before lucid dreaming research can really take off. Chief among them is that very few dreamers can become lucid on demand in the lab. Those who can often struggle to do scientists’ bidding or communicate with the waking world. Pinpointing the best techniques to give more people more lucid dreams may assuage those issues. But even if it does, not all scientists agree on what lucid dreams can tell us about the far more common, nonlucid kind.

***

"In 2020, Carr and colleagues reported that they’d coaxed 14 of 28 nappers to become lucid in the lab — including three people who’d never before lucid dreamed — no drugs necessary. Before falling asleep, participants learned to associate a cue, such as a series of beeps, with self-awareness. Hearing the same sound again while sleeping reminded them to become lucid. Carr is particularly interested in finding out whether lucid dreaming can help people conquer nightmares, but researchers at Northwestern use the sensory cue strategy to get more lucid emissaries to carry out dream tasks for their experiments.

***

"Existing data do suggest that lucid dreamers may have access to parts of the brain that normal dreamers don’t. The lone case study comparing fMRIs of someone’s lucid and nonlucid REM sleep hints that brain areas linked with self-reflection and working memory are more active during lucidity. But those data come from just one person, and it’s not yet clear how such differences in brain activity would affect the outcomes of lucid dream experiments.

***

"Perhaps lucidity affects some aspects of the dream experience but not all of them, Baird adds. In terms of how dreams look, he says, “it would be very, very surprising if it was somehow completely different when you become lucid.”

"A more thorough inventory of the differences in brain activity between lucid and nonlucid dreams might help settle these questions. But even if lucid dreams don’t represent dreams in general, Nielsen still thinks they’re worth studying. “It is a type of consciousness that has intrigued and amused people for centuries,” he says. “It would be important for science to understand how and why humans have this extraordinary capacity for intentional world simulation.'”

comment: a striking phenomenon I have experienced. Difficult to study and offers no answers as to the question of how consciousness appears.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by romansh ⌂ @, Sunday, September 20, 2015, 20:47 (3352 days ago) @ dhw
edited by romansh, Sunday, September 20, 2015, 21:07

If you don't think you are aware of what you are writing, and of the conditions and options open to you when you make a decision, we can agree to disagree.
Again word games on your part dhw. I have never claimed I am not aware. Just that the awareness/consciousness is historical - after the fact. Disagree away.-> Yes, our actions are totally the result of cause and effect (a valid argument against free will), but the notion that my identity is mine alone, regardless of all influences, and therefore gives me the ability to make my own conscious choices within given constraints would cause a moment of pause for some. Apparently not all though.
 I don't have a clue what you mean when you say yours alone. I have not claimed that you are someone else. I have not even claimed you can't be aware of the changes that you make. 
 
> That is because the concept we are discussing is open to (at least) two different and in my view equally valid interpretations. The will is not free from cause and effect, but as part of one's personal identity it is free from coercion other than that imposed by given constraints (such as the environment and the obvious restrictions on our capabilities).-Actually I am discussing the very words you used. Now if you can hold two diametrically opposed views as true, then you are a 'better' man than I. In my world view one or both of those views has to be false.-And note I am not speaking about free will as such, or at least not necessarily so. I am speaking to your ability to make conscious choices and not being able to make conscious choices. This I would describe as silly.-> And for more than two millennia there has been opposition to determinism. I maintain that the clash is based on different interpretations of what we mean by free will. 
Yet you seem to claim determinism (in its modern sense) as true. -What amazes me are compatibilists who hold determinism as true, yet don't see the ramifications of this belief regardless how we define free will. It is almost as though they are caused to have a desire to have free will regardless.-The interesting thing libertarians of the last two centuries or so, recognize the problem as do hard determinists.-> Of course not. Everything is dependent on the universe, which is why your definition is skewed (see below).-The point being we are part of the causal chain of the universe unfolding. You arbitrarily draw boundaries around certain objects and claim they have consciousness (note your version of consciousness and not mine) and hey presto we have free will. This too is skewed.
 
> You keep uttering vague hints about perception of consciousness not being what it seems, and you are not aware of what you are writing, and I keep telling you that for me free will entails making choices, which in turn entails being aware of the conditions (including given constraints) and options involved in those choices. Consciousness doesn't “do” anything - it is the awareness without which we cannot make our choices. -Not so vague ... you are too busy to read the self illusion. 
http://www.agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=14883
http://richannel.org/christmas-lectures/2011/meet-your-brain#/christmas-lectures-2011-bruce-hood--whats-in-your-head
> Again this is getting silly. The definition defines what we mean by free will, which put in its simplest form is the ability to make choices. The discussion then concerns whether or not we have that ability. Your definition tells us that we do not have it, because nothing is independent of the universe. In my view the definition should be neutral.-In your simplest form computers make choices. Hence the quagmire.
My definition simply points to the nature of how choices are made.
Definitions should be neutral - poppycock. They should describe as accurately as possible, what we mean. We don't need to give some under dog a fighting chance.
 
> I would have to know the past and future history of the universe to answer that. You quote me and ignore what you quote: that constitutes “the cause and effect argument against free will.” 
Not at all ... you hold two diametrically opposed positions and somehow hold them both true. If I found myself in such a position I would back away from one or both of those positions. But that's just me.-> This is getting sillier and sillier. I do not hold it as untrue. I hold both propositions as true, depending on which approach to the subject we adopt. 
 
See my response immediately above ... but I agree silly is an appropriate description.
 
> “Again”? This is the first time you have acknowledged that there might be other criteria. Could this be progress? Cause and effect have always been part of the discussion, but the definition should be neutral. Once more: cause and effect approach = we do not have the ability; identity approach = we do. My definition allows for both approaches.-I am sure I have agreed we can define free will, into and out of existence before. ->> Your definition vesus mine
>> Again we play a semantic game.
>> If we are truly conscious then yes we have free will by that definition. 
>> But the problem does not go away. Is there anything and I mean anything in that choice that was independent of cause?
http://www.agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=14997
and
http://www.agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=14951

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by dhw, Monday, September 21, 2015, 19:40 (3351 days ago) @ romansh

ROMANSH: Again word games on your part dhw. I have never claimed I am not aware. Just that the awareness/consciousness is historical - after the fact. -I am aware of what I am writing, I consciously think BEFORE and while I write, and even sometimes consciously search for words and rethink. I follow the same conscious thinking procedure with conditions and options BEFORE I make a decision. Which of us is the odd man out?-Dhw: Yes, our actions are totally the result of cause and effect (a valid argument against free will), but the notion that my identity is mine alone, regardless of all influences, and therefore gives me the ability to make my own conscious choices within given constraints...etc.
ROMANSH: I don't have a clue what you mean when you say yours alone. I have not claimed that you are someone else...-Perhaps the fact that you and Bruce Hood think of the self as an illusion is the source of your strange inability to understand what I mean when I say “my identity is mine alone.” Did you miss “regardless of all influences”? See below re Hood's lecture.
 
ROMANSH: Now if you can hold two diametrically opposed views as true, then you are a 'better' man than I. In my world view one or both of those views has to be false. [...] I am speaking to your ability to make conscious choices and not being able to make conscious choices. This I would describe as silly.-It only sounds silly if you continue to leave out the different premises on which the different conclusions are based. See also below for my response to your “poppycock” re definitions.-Dhw: Everything is dependent on the universe, which is why your definition is skewed.
ROMANSH: You arbitrarily draw boundaries around certain objects and claim they have consciousness (note your version of consciousness and not mine) and hey presto we have free will. This too is skewed.-This is a total misrepresentation of my argument. During these exchanges, I have not drawn arbitrary boundaries round any objects (I wrote that I don't even draw a line around myself) and have limited my discussion of consciousness to humans. It was you who brought up machines, and I pointed out that if humans have free will, free will exists. There is no hey presto. Having consciousness does not invalidate the cause-and-effect argument. I remain at a loss as to why you reject its role in the process of making choices.-Dhw: Consciousness doesn't “do” anything - it is the awareness without which we cannot make our choices. 
ROMANSH: Not so vague ... you are too busy to read the self illusion. -http://www.agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=14883
http://richannel.org/christmas-lectures/2011/meet-your-brain#/christmas-lectures-2011-b...-I am fully aware that we are largely formed by our environment and heredity, we need other people, and our sense of an emergent self does not mean we have a single coherent “self” etc. I pointed out earlier that my identity is a mass of actuals and potentials. The fact that my fluid self may not be what it seems applies to the whole of reality. None of us can know the objective truth. But an illusion is not necessarily a delusion, and my self is still me and as real to me as anything I know. That is why, despite the validity of the cause and effect argument against free will, I can also argue that my identity is mine alone regardless of all influences, and so my “self” has the ability to take conscious decisions.-Dhw: The definition defines what we mean by free will, which put in its simplest form is the ability to make choices. The discussion then concerns whether or not we have that ability. Your definition tells us that we do not have it, because nothing is independent of the universe. In my view the definition should be neutral.-ROMANSH: My definition simply points to the nature of how choices are made.-No it doesn't. It tells us that free will is only possible if choices are independent of the universe.-ROMANSH: Definitions should be neutral - poppycock. They should describe as accurately as possible, what we mean. We don't need to give some under dog a fighting chance. -Great! Compatibilist definition of free will: freedom to act without coercion from other people, social conventions or institutions. So when I choose a chocolate ice cream in preference to a vanilla ice cream (example taken from Bruce Hood), I prove that I have free will because nobody else and no institution forced me to make the choice. This is fun:-Atheist definition of God: a non-existent being dreamed up by the human imagination. -Theist definition of God: The eternal, living being that created the universe and life.
All we have to do is choose a definition that describes “as accurately as possible what we mean”, and that proves our case. -Dhw: “Again”? This is the first time you have acknowledged that there might be other criteria. Could this be progress? 
ROMANSH: I am sure I have agreed we can define free will, into and out of existence before.-Yes, we have. Now please tell me what criteria other than cause and effect you are prepared to accept in discussing whether we do or do not have free will.

A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire

by David Turell @, Sunday, September 06, 2015, 18:17 (3366 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: The proposition: if I remember rightly, last time we discussed this I made the (unanswered) point that all these factors go to form our identity (though this is never complete, since it continues to develop with every new experience). Even if what makes “me” may be beyond “my” control, nevertheless it is me, and so when I make my choices, “I” alone am responsible for them. In this sense, I may be said to have free will: I make my own conscious choices within given constraints. I would therefore suggest that the answer to the question of whether we have free will or not depends on the level at which we wish to consider it. Our instincts tell us that we have it, because it is our self and nothing else that makes the decisions, but our intellect tells us that our choices have been fashioned for us by conditions over which we have no control.-Hear, hear!!!

Free Will: Top down or bottom up

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 14, 2016, 02:02 (3237 days ago) @ David Turell

Interesting Discussion re' George Ellis by V. J. Torley:-First Ellis:-http://fqxi.org/data/essay-contest-files/Ellis_FQXI_Essay_Ellis_2012.pdf-"However there are many topics that one cannot understand by assuming this one-way flow of causation. The flourishing subject of social neuroscience makes clear how social influences act down on individual brain structure ; studies in physiology demonstrate that downward causation is necessary in understanding the heart, where this form of causation can be represented as the influences of initial and boundary conditions on the solutions of the differential equations used to represent the lower level processes [3]; epigenetic studies demonstrate that biological development is crucially shaped by the environment. What about physics? In this essay I will make the case that top-down causation is also prevalent in physics, even though this is not often recognised as such. This does not occur by violating physical laws; on the contrary, it occurs through the laws of physics, by setting constraints on lower level interactions. Thus my theme is that the foundational assumption that all causation is bottom up is wrong, even in the case of physics. Some writers on this topic prefer to refer to “contextual effects” or “whole-part constraints”. These are perfectly acceptable terms, but I will make the case that the stronger term “top-down causation” is appropriate in many cases.-***-"The assumption that causation is bottom up only is wrong in biology, in computers, and even in many cases in physics, for example state vector preparation, where top-down constraints allow non-unitary behaviour at the lower levels. It may well play a key role in the quantum measurement problem (the dual of state vector preparation). One can bear in mind here that wherever equivalence classes of entities play a key role, such as in Crutchfield's computational mechanics, this is an indication that top-down causation is at play. There are some great discussions of the nature of emergent phenomena in physics, but none of them specifically mention the issue of top down causation. This paper proposes that recognising this feature will make it easier to comprehend the physical effects underlying emergence of genuine complexity, and may lead to useful new developments, particularly to do with the foundational nature of quantum theory. It is a key missing element in current physics.-Torley:-http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicist-tells-people-to-stop-saying-they-have-free-will/-"All that is needed is to show that the the idea of top-down causation which is irreducible to preceding instances of bottom-up causation remains a valid one in physics, and that this, coupled with the suggestion that the mind can make non-random global selections from random sequences of events without destroying their local randomness, is enough to render the ideas of agent-causation and strong libertarian free will scientifically tenable. How the mind makes these selections and influences processes within the brain is a question for another day (for a discussion, see here and here). All that I have been concerned to show here is that no laws of physics are broken, even if one adopts a very robust version of libertarian free-will."-Comment: I like Ellis' computer analogy approach. I fell my brain and body work exactly that way. Torley confirms. My decisions are macro events in my brain not controlled by micro events in each neuron.

Free Will: Egnor again

by David Turell @, Monday, March 13, 2023, 17:43 (621 days ago) @ David Turell

Answers Sean Carroll:

https://mindmatters.ai/2023/03/sean-carroll-how-could-an-immaterial-mind-affect-the-body/

In the trailer for the movie, Carroll asks, How in the world does the immaterial mind affect the physical body? Carroll’s denial of libertarian free will is based on this question, and of course, he believes that the immaterial mind does not exist and, if it did exist, could not affect the physical body. Thus, he believes that libertarian free will is nonsense.

***

"Aristotle noted that when we think carefully about natural causes we see that there are four distinct ways that causes can lead to effects in nature. We use a statue as an example of an effect whose causes we can study:

"Material cause is the matter (marble) that the statue is made of. The matter of what something is made is one of the causes of the thing – without the marble, the statue could not exist.

"Efficient cause is the agent that gives rise to the effect – in the case of the sculpture, the efficient cause is a sculptor.

"Formal cause is the design principle that underlies the effect – in the case of the sculpture, the formal cause is the idea in the mind of the sculptor of what the sculpture will look like. The formal cause is quite real and is indispensable to an understanding of causation – after all if the form of the sculpture did not exist in the mind of the sculptor as he was working, there would be no sculpture.

"Final cause is the ultimate goal, purpose, or final state of the causal chain. The final cause for the sculpture might be the sculptor’s desire to express himself artistically or it might be the sculptor’s desire to be paid for his work.

***

"Francis Bacon in the 17th century proposed that Aristotelian formal and final causes were irrelevant to a scientific understanding of nature, and since Bacon’s time, formal and final causes have been relegated to obscurity. But Aristotle was right – material and efficient causes alone are inadequate to understand nature because there are patterns and purposes built into nature that we can’t deny.

"So, Carroll’s implicit assertion that the immaterial mind could not affect the physical body is predicated on his belief that the only kinds of causes that exist in the physical world are material and efficient causes. He is wrong about that. Ironically, Carroll’s own scientific discipline – quantum mechanics – is a prime example of the importance of formal causes in nature. The scientific description of quantum processes is entirely mathematical, which is a description of formal causes. Matter and individuation disappear at the quantum level. What remains are the mathematical descriptions of quantum particles and dynamics. Contrary to Carroll’s implicit insistence that only material and efficient causes act in nature, quantum mechanics shows that formal (immaterial) causes are fundamental to nature.

"Thus a mental (formal) state can cause a physical state in a way that is currently understood in physics. A particularly striking example of the importance of formal causes in science is the phenomenon of chirality. Chirality is a property of mirror image molecules in which the molecules contain exactly the same number and kinds of atoms connected in exactly the same kind of way except that one is a mirror image of the other. In other words, the matter comprising chiral molecules is exactly the same although the form of the molecules can be radically different. For example, all biological amino acids that make up proteins are L enantiomers (one mirror image). Amino acids that are identical materially but are R enantiomers (mirror images) play no role in protein manufacture. The difference between L and R enantiomers can be a matter of great medical importance and even life and death – Darvon is an analgesic but its enantiomer Novrad is an anti-cough agent. Penicillamine is used in the treatment of arthritis, but its enantiomer is very toxic.

"Formal causation is ubiquitous in biology and Carroll’s argument that we cannot have libertarian free will because the immaterial (formal) mind cannot affect matter is philosophically vacuous. Libertarian free will in this paradigm is an example of the action of formal and final cause on brain matter – the intellect (formal cause) provides an understanding of the choices and the will (final cause) provides a decision on how to act. Contra Carroll, there is a 2000-year tradition of understanding immaterial formal and final causation in nature that provides a substantial metaphysical and scientific basis for the observation that libertarian free will is real."

Comment: Egnor is a thomist as I am. Look at another example of immaterial thought. You have a terribly frightening thought and your heart races. His chirality example is right on. Handedness gives functionality which is an immaterial event.

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