New brain complexity (Introduction)
by David Turell , Tuesday, October 29, 2013, 14:38 (4043 days ago)
Dendrites are nerve fibers from neurons in the brain. They are not simply electrical wires. They compute.:-http://www.the-scientist.com//?articles.view/articleNo/38060/title/Cortical-Computing/-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131027140632.htm
Brain complexity: interpreting speech
by David Turell , Friday, January 31, 2014, 00:48 (3950 days ago) @ David Turell
The area appears to be very complex, and presents the usual chicken and egg issue for Darwin: did the brain develop this capacity as speech developed or could the brain interpret speech before speech developed? How could these two developments happen simultaneously?--http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-01-reveals-brain-speech-video.html
Brain complexity: connections available
by David Turell , Thursday, June 05, 2014, 21:45 (3824 days ago) @ David Turell
Extreme complexity:-http://discovermagazine.com/2014/julyaug/18-body-of-work
Brain complexity: circadian rhythm
by David Turell , Thursday, November 06, 2014, 18:11 (3670 days ago) @ David Turell
In fruit flies, there are large changes in circadian rhythm:-"In Drosophila, this biological clock comprises 150-200 neurons nestled in seven clusters that include the small ventral lateral (sLNv) neurons. Researchers had known that these circadian pacemakers keep fly brains on a clock by rhythmically releasing chemical cues such as pigment dispensing factor (PDF) and other neurotransmitters. But in a 2008 study, María Fernanda Ceriani of the Leloir Institute in Argentina and colleagues found that these pacemaker cells also remodel their physical connections, forming more-complex ones during the day and significantly simpler circuits at night. The daily structural changes led Ceriani to wonder whether such physical contacts could also communicate time to neurons outside the clock.-"To map synaptic connections, Ceriani and her colleagues labeled neurons with complementary fragments of a fluorescent protein; if two cells formed a synapse, the separate parts of the transmembrane protein snapped together and fluoresced under a microscope. The method, called GRASP, identified potential postsynaptic contacts formed early in the morning by axonal processes from sLNvs reaching out not only to other classes of clock neurons, such as posterior dorsal neuron 1 (DN1p) cells, but to neurons in noncircadian brain regions, such as the mushroom body, lateral horn, and the pars intercerebralis. Those processes then appeared to be pruned back overnight. In contrast, projections to DN1p cells remained constant throughout the day and night, while synapses made with another neuronal cluster were enhanced at night."-http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/41277/title/Rhythmic-Rewiring/-Humans probably have similar mechanisms. This requires complex informational planning to develop. This is probably one the patterns followed in animal life development
Brain complexity: circadian rhythm
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Friday, November 07, 2014, 06:31 (3670 days ago) @ David Turell
Kind of gives a whole new context to the Blind Watchmaker argument. Doesn't it?
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Brain complexity: seasonal circadian rhythm
by David Turell , Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 02:06 (3435 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
The area in the brain that is aware of seasonal changes has been found, working through specific genes and chlorine concentrations:- http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-06-brain-summer.html-"Seasonal time keeping is important for animals as well as people, and recent studies indicate that it is accomplished by the same part of the brain that governs our daily circadian rhythms. This brain area, called the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), cyclically expresses certain "clock" genes during a 24-hour period, but not all of the neurons march to the same beat. Two regions in the SCN are slightly out of phase, and as day length increases, so does the phase gap between them.-"To understand how this happens, the researchers first measured expression levels of the clock gene Bmal1 in explanted dorsal and ventral SCNs of mice that had been living in long-day or short-day light cycles. As expected, cyclical Bmal1 levels in dorsal and ventral regions from the long-day group were out of phase, while those from the short-day group were synchronized. Modeling analysis predicted that coupling between the two regions is not a two-way street, and that this asymmetry causes the dorsal region to become out of phase when daylight increases.-"The research team found that the neurotransmitter GABA plays an important role in this process. In most cases, GABA inhibits the activity of neurons. However, some SCN neurons are actually excited by GABA. Lead author Jihwan Myung explains, "GABA becomes excitatory when chloride levels inside neurons are high. We suspected that changes in GABA function across the SCN could represent the repulsive force that pushes these two clusters of neurons out of phase.-***-"To test this hypothesis, they measured expression levels of two other genes—Nkcc1 and Kcc2—that are responsible for importing and exporting chloride. They found that in long-day SCNs, the expression ratio of the two genes in the dorsal SCN changed so that much more chloride was imported. This made the effect of GABA preferentially excitatory in the dorsal region. Blocking chloride import abolished the phase gap seen in the long-day group, and as predicted by the model, even made SCNs trained on an even 12-hour daylight cycle resemble the short-day group."-Comment: The suprachiasmatic nucleus is just above the optic chiasm, the crossing of the two optic nerves. This tells me light sensitivity is part of the process, as days are longer or shorter depending, except at the Equator. As an example to keep the hair off our show horses, they stay under light 18 hours a day, always mimicking summer.
New brain complexity: changing responses
by David Turell , Thursday, September 04, 2014, 16:22 (3733 days ago) @ David Turell
This study shows that neurons can vary signals, and new neurons may enter the action:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-09-scientists-reveal-complexity-brain-wiring.html-Note the result:-"Mattis and Brill used optogenetics to prompt neurons of the hippocampus to mimic either the slow firing characteristic of information acquisition or the rapid firing characteristic of consolidation. When they mimicked the slow firing they saw a quick reaction by cells in the septum. When they mimicked the fast consolidation firing, they saw a much slower response by completely different cells in the septum. "Same set of wires - different outcome. That's like turning on different lights depending on how hard you flip the switch. "This illustrates how complex the brain is," Mattis said. "Most scientific papers answer a question: What does this protein do? How does this part of the brain work? By contrast, this paper raised a whole new set of questions, Mattis said. They more or less understand the faster reaction, but what is causing the slower reaction? How widespread is this phenomenon in the brain?"
New brain complexity: mapping
by David Turell , Monday, November 17, 2014, 15:11 (3659 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by David Turell, Monday, November 17, 2014, 15:17
This quote explains the problem:-"So many large and small questions remain unanswered. How is information encoded and transferred from cell to cell or from network to network of cells? Science found a genetic code but there is no brain-wide neural code; no electrical or chemical alphabet exists that can be recombined to say “red” or “fear” or “wink” or “run.” And no one knows whether information is encoded differently in various parts of the brain."-And this:-"The question now on his mind, and that of many neuroscientists, is how larger groups, thousands of neurons, work together — whether to produce an action, like reaching for a cup, or to perceive something, like a flower.There are ways to record the electrical activity of neurons in a brain, and those methods are improving fast. But, he said, “If I give you a picture of a thousand neurons firing, it's not going to tell you anything.”"-http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/11/science/learning-how-little-we-know-about-the-brain.html?_r=0-The brain is a computer like no other, and I don't think we can copy it completely. And Darwinians want us to accept all of this was the natural result of evolution.-Here is another example involving the complexity of simple memory at the molecular level:-http://www.the-scientist.com//?articles.view/articleNo/41435/title/How-a-Memory-Is-Made/
New brain complexity: vibrations
by David Turell , Tuesday, November 18, 2014, 15:34 (3658 days ago) @ David Turell
Another variable in brain function:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-11-mechanisms-mexican-brain-revealed-scientists.html-"Neurons are cells in the brain that communicate chemical and electrical information and they belong to one of two groups- inhibitory or excitatory. While much is known about excitatory neurons, the role of inhibitory neurons is still being debated.-"Inhibitory neurons can vibrate and they are equipped with mechanisms that enable them to persuade networks of other neurons into imitating their vibrations - setting off 'Mexican waves' in the brain. The scientists believe these collective, oscillating vibrations play a key role in cognitive function. Their research sheds light on how inhibitory neurons use different communication processes to excitatory neurons, which share information via an internal pulsing mechanism."-Something a computer cannot do in the same way.
New brain complexity: relational thinking
by David Turell , Tuesday, December 09, 2014, 00:32 (3638 days ago) @ David Turell
Compared to monkeys we have much more complex ways to handle problems, relating several unrelated facts at the same time. We are different in kind:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/141203142636.htm-"Given the supporting evidence across species, we posit that connections between these frontal and parietal regions have provided the necessary support for our unique ability to reason using abstract relations," said Michael Vendetti, co-author of the study and a postdoctoral researcher in neuroscience at UC Berkeley.-"Relational reasoning is a high-level cognitive process in which we make comparisons and find equivalencies, as one does in algebra, for example. First-order comparisons identify the relationship between two items or activities in the following ways: semantic (hammer is used to hit a nail); numeric (four is greater than two); temporal (we get out of bed before we go to work) or visuospatial (the bird is on top of the house). Second-order or higher-order comparisons take this a step further by equating two or more sets of first-order relations (a chain is to a link as a bouquet is to a flower).-"To test their hypothesis that the human gift for relational reasoning can be traced to developmental and evolutionary changes in the brain's lateral frontoparietal network, the researchers examined studies that track anatomical changes in the developing human brain; compare neural patterns in human and non-human primates, and compare how human and non-human primates tackle various reasoning tasks.-"Their exhaustive meta-analysis identified three parts of the brain that play key roles in relational reasoning, the rostrolateral prefrontal cortex, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex and the inferior parietal lobule, with the rostrolateral region more actively engaged in second-order relational reasoning.-"In looking at brain development, they found that "synaptic pruning," which usually takes place in adolescence when white matter replaces gray matter and signals between neurons speed up, was more evident in the inferior parietal regions of the brain.-"Also crucial to their finding was a study led by Oxford University neuroscientist Matthew Rushworth that compared neural patterns in humans and macaque monkeys. While human and non-human primates were found to share similarities in the frontal and parietal brain regions, activity in the human rostrolateral prefrontal cortex differed significantly from that of the macaque monkey's frontal cortex, the study found."
New brain complexity: Mouse brain maps
by David Turell , Friday, December 12, 2014, 18:03 (3634 days ago) @ David Turell
Overwhelming complexity:-http://www.the-scientist.com//?articles.view/articleNo/41605/title/Big-Data-and-the-Brain/-"Given the organ's complexities at nearly every level of organization, he said, tracking the cellular components of the brain poses unique challenges. For one, the brain is highly compartmentalized, so samples from different regions will likely yield neurons that perform different functions. Moreover, when examining even the smallest tissue samples, there is “a massive amount of communication going on” among nerve cells, said Lichtman. “Each cell is dealing with thousands of inputs and thousands of outputs.”"
Brain complexity: virus help
by David Turell , Thursday, January 22, 2015, 14:56 (3593 days ago) @ David Turell
Endogenous viruses in mouse brain are found to add complex functionality, and make up part of junk DNA:-"Our intimate relationship with these so-called endogenous retroviruses may be distressing to think about but a study published last week in Cell Reports suggests that they may help shape that thinking by participating in brain development. By manipulating mice genetics, researchers found evidence that some endogenous retroviruses gained new roles that are important for brain development in our not-so-distant rodent relatives. “Brain cells are very complex compared to other cells,” says Johan Jakobsson, a researcher at Lund University in Sweden and lead author of the study. “Co-opting endogenous retroviruses allows for much more complexity, especially since they make up so much of the genome.”-"Most endogenous retroviruses serve a life sentence, and are essentially permanently locked down via a gene-silencing process called DNA methylation. The study by Jakobsson and colleagues suggests that certain endogenous retroviruses don't serve such a harsh sentence and can get out on parole, so to speak, to carry out important developmental duties in the brains of mouse embryos.-"The parole officer in this situation is a protein called TRIM28, which has the ability to put the endogenous retroviruses back on lockdown by a more reversible gene-silencing process, called histone modification. After researchers knocked out TRIM28 in a variety of cells, including liver, brain and white blood cells, they noticed changes in mouse gene expression only in brain cells. “There seems to be a different mechanism regulating endogenous retroviruses in brain cells than in other cells,” Jakobsson says."-http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-viruses-gain-new-functions-in-the-brain/?WT.mc_id=SA_MB_20150121
Brain complexity: finding how we balance
by David Turell , Friday, January 30, 2015, 19:01 (3585 days ago) @ David Turell
"Walking across an icy parking lot in winter -- and remaining upright -- takes intense concentration. But a new discovery suggests that much of the balancing act that our bodies perform when faced with such a task happens unconsciously, thanks to a cluster of neurons in our spinal cord that function as a "mini-brain" to integrate sensory information and make the necessary adjustments to our muscles so that we don't slip and fall.-"Another important characteristic of the ROR? neurons is that they don't just receive signals from the brain and the light touch sensors, but also directly connect with neurons in the ventral spinal cord that control movement. Thus, they are at the center of a "mini-brain" in the spinal cord that integrates signals from the brain with sensory signals to make sure the limbs move correctly.-"'We think these neurons are responsible for combining all of this information to tell the feet how to move," says Steeve Bourane, a postdoctoral researcher in Goulding's lab and first author on the new paper. "If you stand on a slippery surface for a long time, you'll notice your calf muscles get stiff, but you may not have noticed you were using them. Your body is on autopilot, constantly making subtle corrections while freeing you to attend to other higher-level tasks.'"-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150129132811.htm
Brain complexity: different cell types
by David Turell , Friday, February 20, 2015, 01:07 (3565 days ago) @ David Turell
Forty cell types catalogued, using genomic mapping:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-02-brain-reveals-unknown-cell.html-"In the present study, the scientists used large-scale single-cell analysis to answer some of these questions. By studying over three thousand cells from the cerebral cortex in mice, one at a time and in detail, and comparing which of the 20,000 genes were active in each one, they were able to sort the cells into virtual piles. They identified 47 different kinds of cell, including a large proportion of specialised neurons, some blood vessel cells and glial cells, which take care of waste products, protect against infection and supply nerve cells with nutrients.-"With the help of this detailed map, the scientists were able to identify hitherto unknown cell types, including a nerve cell in the most superficial cortical layer, and six different types of oligodendrocyte, which are cells that form the electrically insulating myelin sheath around the nerve cells.-"There are estimated to be 100 million cells in a mouse brain, and 65 billion in a human brain."-Not only are there thousands of synapses for each neuron, there are many different types of neurons. More evidence of how complex the brain is.
Brain complexity: how the brain helps us
by David Turell , Sunday, March 01, 2015, 15:46 (3555 days ago) @ David Turell
This interview with Bradley Voytek, a cognitive neuroscientist, (also quoted in my book downgrading fMRI's) discusses how love, a part of consciousness cannot be studied in brain structure. Also demonstrates developmental plasticity, and fills gaps in our knowledge of what we are experiencing externally. Romansh will seize on this to claim we don't have free will, but my view is our brain is built to help us understand reality and make decisions. That is freewill.-http://fivebooks.com/interviews/bradley-voytek-on-surrealism-and-brain-1-:As a scientist, I really do believe the scientific method is quite powerful for explaining the world but — at least for the foreseeable future — it is not very good at discussing the human condition. So I think the strength of the arts and the humanities is its ways of discussing the human experience and I hoped to pick up on this in my book choices. The Master and Margarita ?isn't exactly a scientific book. When you're looking at how people interact, the suffering, the pain, strife, love and all those crazy things, neuroscience doesn't really have answers about that. That's what we're getting at in the introduction to our book. A neuroscience of love, for example, what does that even mean? Can you really reduce something as complex as love — about which untold numbers of stories and poems and songs and music have been written — to the density of some neurotransmitter in a brain region? Personal experience tells me, no. And from a scientific perspective it also doesn't really make sense, because we don't really have a good definition of what love is. And so, if you can't operationalise things in a scientific way, if you can't come up with a solid strong definition for the thing you're studying, then you're not really studying a thing."
Brain complexity: massive connections
by David Turell , Saturday, April 04, 2015, 15:01 (3521 days ago) @ David Turell
Just a brief idea of how complex. We really know very little. Can we solve the problem?-"Computer scientists are working on algorithms that will make it easier to manage such data. They're also are trying to create computers that can replicate the processing power of the brain. That would take a so-called exascale computer, a machine capable of performing a billion calculations per second.-"It's impossible to know how close scientists are to reaching that goal.-"The precise speed and capacity of the brain have never been determined, a lesson I learned after asking Caltech for help on the matter. A public relations representative responded by email, saying, “I reached out to several of our neuroscientists, and they seem to agree: These are VERY tough questions.”-"She then referred me to a scientist at another institution. Imagine that. Caltech — whose faculty have won Nobel Prizes for their work on the brain — pointing me elsewhere. The brain is that complex.-"There's reason to believe the brain is too complicated to ever be fully understood. Long ago, Gerald Edelman of La Jolla, winner of the 1972 Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology, tried to help people visualize the complexity.-"He asked people to think of a region of the brain that's the size of a match. There are enough neurons in that spot to make a billion connections.-"'If we consider how connections might be variously combined,” Edelman said, “the number would be hyper-astronomical — on the order of 10 followed by millions of zeros.'"
Brain complexity: speaking and writing
by David Turell , Tuesday, May 05, 2015, 17:56 (3490 days ago) @ David Turell
Found in different control areas of the brain. Two ways of handling language are compartmentalized in the brain. Obviously speech developed and then written language in that order, so this separation of control areas is not surprising:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-05-brain-ability.html-"The team wanted to understand how the brain organizes knowledge of written language—reading and spelling—since that there is a genetic blueprint for spoken language but not written. More specifically, they wanted to know if written language was dependent on spoken language in literate adults. If it was, then one would expect to see similar errors in speech and writing. If it wasn't, one might see that people don't necessarily write what they say.-"The team, which included Simon Fischer-Baum of Rice University and Michele Miozzo of Columbia University, both cognitive scientists, studied five stroke victims with aphasia, or difficulty communicating. Four of them had difficulties writing sentences with the proper suffixes, but had few problems speaking the same sentences. The last individual had the opposite problem—trouble with speaking but unaffected writing.-"The researchers showed the individuals pictures and asked them to describe the action. One person would say, "The boy is walking," but write, "the boy is walked." Or another would say, "Dave is eating an apple" and then write, "Dave is eats an apple."-"The findings reveal that writing and speaking are supported by different parts of the brain—and not just in terms of motor control in the hand and mouth, but in the high-level aspects of word construction.-"'We found that the brain is not just a 'dumb' machine that knows about letters and their order, but that it is 'smart' and sophisticated and knows about word parts and how they fit together," Rapp said. "When you damage the brain, you might damage certain morphemes but not others in writing but not speaking, or vice versa.'"
Brain complexity: directional hearing
by David Turell , Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 19:15 (3483 days ago) @ David Turell
Discriminating sounds and direction, especially thru noise:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150512124134.htm-"Our hearing is so sensitive that we can hear a pin drop and that's because of the 'cochlear amplifier' in our inner ear. This stems from outer hair cells in the cochlea which amplify sound vibrations."-"'When sound intensity increases, the olivocochlear reflex turns down the 'cochlear amplifier' to dynamically balance the input of each ear for optimal hearing, sound localisation and to protect hearing."-"The study found that the cochlear's outer hair cells, which amplify sound vibrations, also provide the sensory signal to the brain for dynamic feedback control of this sound amplification, via a small group of auditory nerve fibres of previously unknown function.-"In mice lacking the sensory fibre connection to the cochlear outer hair cells, loud sound presented to one ear had no effect on hearing sensitivity in the other ear. In normal control mice this produced an almost instant suppression of hearing.-"Similarly, the olivocochlear reflex normally causes a rapid reduction in hearing in the ear receiving an increase in sound. This hearing adaptation was also absent in the mice lacking the sensory fibre connection."
Brain complexity: parts connectivity
by David Turell , Tuesday, July 07, 2015, 19:25 (3427 days ago) @ David Turell
89% ideal according to mathematical model. Design or chance?-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150707120101.htm-"Krioukov, an associate professor in the Department of Physics, studies networks, from those related to massive Internet datasets to those defining our brains. In the new research, he and his co-authors used sophisticated statistical analyses based on Nobel laureate John Nash's contributions to game theory to construct a map of an idealized brain network--one that optimized the transfer of information. They then compared the idealized map of the brain to a map of the brain's real network and asked the question "How close are the two?"-"Remarkably so. They were surprised to learn that 89 percent of the connections in the idealized brain network showed up in the real brain network as well. "That means the brain was evolutionarily designed to be very, very close to what our algorithm shows," says Krioukov.-"The scientists' strategy bucks tradition: It lets function--in this case, navigability--drive the structure of the idealized network, thereby showing which links are essential for optimal navigation. Most researchers in the field, says Krioukov, build models of the real network first, and only then address function, an approach that does not highlight the most crucial links."
Brain complexity: using information
by David Turell , Friday, July 17, 2015, 16:10 (3417 days ago) @ David Turell
Single neuron studies are showing how the brain uses information. With 100 billion neurons there is a pattern in the noise:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150716124405.htm-"'If the brain could always count on receiving the same sensory response to the same stimulus, it would have an easier time," said neuroscientist Xaq Pitkow, lead author of a new study this week in Neuron. "But noise is always there in the brain: studies have repeatedly shown that neurons give a variety of responses to the same stimulus."-"'When neuroscientists first analyzed the output of individual neurons, they were surprised to find that the activity of just a single neuron sometimes predicted behavior in certain tasks," Pitkow said.-"The team tested each model against the activity of single neurons in monkeys that were undergoing perceptual tests to measure how accurately they could perceive slight movements to the left or right. The experimenters found that some neurons predicted the animals' guesses about whether they were moving left or right.-"'When we examined the output, we found that the monkeys' brains were not throwing away information," Pitkow said. "They were using each neuron's information very effectively. And we also saw that even though there were many neurons involved, the guess of any individual neuron was only slightly worse than the animal's actual guess during the test. These two pieces of evidence together indicate the neurons mostly share the same information."-"'One intriguing possibility that we are looking into is that redundancy allows the brain to reformat information and approach complex problems from many different angles," he said."
Brain complexity: using information
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Saturday, July 18, 2015, 00:58 (3417 days ago) @ David Turell
It's entirely random!!!! Random chance for the monkeys!! ... ... Hi.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Brain complexity: review article
by David Turell , Tuesday, July 21, 2015, 11:49 (3414 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
A very clear exposition of how the brain works to build our perceptions:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-07-william-james-revisited-ongoing-brain.html-"The paper raises the fundamental question of why the brain's processing architecture constantly undergoes such spatially extended modulations, as well as the possibility that in more complex decision-making or working memory engagement, behavior would benefit from less modularity and thereby more widespread communication between task-relevant modules. "While in the recent few years it has become increasingly apparent that ongoing functional connectivity across brain regions is constantly changing, the reason for these dynamics is largely unknown," Sadaghiani notes. "One interpretation is that these dynamics could be merely an epiphenomenal byproduct of how spontaneous electrical activity flows through the brain's anatomical wiring - but another much more exciting possibility is that by dynamically shifting between various connectivity states, the brain iterates through connectivity layouts that facilitate different types of cognitive functions. For example," she illustrates, "one moment the brain may be in a state that is optimal for sensory perception, such as a highly modular structure where sensory networks are well segregated as observed in the current perceptual experiment. In the next moment, the brain may be in a more integrated state where widespread communication across networks facilitates higher-level cognitive functions such as semantic memory retrieval or complex reasoning." This interpretation suggests that by continuously changing configurations within an array of connectivity states, the brain could exploit its full cognitive potential.-"The paper also states that attempts to link behavior to brain function must conceptually integrate the role of ongoing brain activity and its connectivity dynamics. "Almost all neuroscientific approaches to studying the neural basis of cognitive processes - from single cell recordings to large-scale network imaging - inherently assume that the brain is primarily a reactive machine and mainly fires in response to a stimulus or cognitive challenge." Sadaghiani says. "While this assumption greatly simplifies experimentation and analyses, during the last decade or so overwhelming evidence across all these methodologies shows that most of brain activity is in fact intrinsic and not dependent on external events. In fact, a growing body of studies - including ours - suggests that this intrinsic brain activity influences our perception of the world and cognition." (my bold)
Brain complexity: two eyes, single vision
by David Turell , Friday, July 24, 2015, 15:50 (3410 days ago) @ David Turell
We see as if we were a Cyclops with one eye. The brain combines both eye's views into one, although each of us has a dominant eye:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150723181244.htm-"According to Rokers, a group of neurons in the visual cortex called the striate cortex, or V1, is handling two sets of pictures from our eyes -- one view each from the left eye and the right eye. Move one step down the line to an area called V2, part of the extrastriate cortex, and the neurons have largely shifted to a single picture. The research clears up unsettled questions as to what purpose V2 serves in visual processing.-"The researchers tucked people in functional MRI machines, and had them peer into a prismatic device that showed each eye a different image. For example, the left eye would see a vertical black bar slightly to the right of center, while the right eye saw the bar slightly to the left of center.-"'The brain processes the two presented images like it would with any normal pair of images, and perceives them as a single bar in the center of the field of vision, but shifted slightly backwards in depth," Rokers says.-"Because the MRI results are sharp enough to discern the different brain activity signatures for each vertical bar, the researchers could compare brain activity when the bars were presented to each eye separately or both eyes together.-"'What we show is that in V1, that activity goes with the presented location -- some neurons see the left eye image, some the right eye image," Rokers says. "But in V2, the activity matches the perceived, centered location. V2 is working with the combined, cyclopean image.'"-How to find the your dominant eye: quickly point your finger at some object a short distance away. Without moving your hand close one eye and then the other. In only one eye will the finger be dead on. Romansh, any thoughts?
Brain complexity: we 'R not chimps
by David Turell , Friday, July 24, 2015, 19:17 (3410 days ago) @ David Turell
We have areas for abstract thought that the chimps don't even show:-http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-makes-a-human-brain-unique/?WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20150724-"Neuroscientists have identified an area of the brain that might give the human mind its unique abilities, including language. The area lit up in human, but not monkey, brains when they were presented with different types of abstract information.-"The idea that integrating abstract information drives many of the human brain's unique abilities has been around for decades. But a paper published in Current Biology, which directly compares activity in human and macaque monkey brains as they listen to simple auditory patterns, provides the first physical evidence that a specific area for such integration may exist in humans. Other studies that compare monkeys and humans have revealed differences in the brain's anatomy, for example, but not differences that could explain where humans' abstract abilities come from, say neuroscientists."-Comment: Not unexpected.
Brain complexity: how the brain screens to help us
by David Turell , Monday, August 03, 2015, 17:26 (3400 days ago) @ David Turell
If one accepts the fact that the brain is built to help us understand reality, then the arguments about free will become clearer:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-08-brains-filter-visual-movements-humans.html- "Our brains are constantly barraged with sensory information, but have an amazing ability to filter out just what they need to understand what's going on around us. For instance, if you stand perfectly still in a room, and that room rotates around you, it's terrifying. But stand still in a room and turn your eyes, and the same visual input feels perfectly normal. That's thanks to a complex process in our brain that tell us when and how to pay attention to sensory input. Specifically, we ignore visual input caused by our own eye movements. "Now, researchers at The Rockefeller University have identified a similar process in flies, whose brains ignore visual input caused by their own flight turns. This advance will allow researchers to better understand how ongoing behavior influences visual perception.-"'Fly brains are small, so discovering that flies can 'silence' visual inputs means that we can aim for a comprehensive understanding of how this silencing process is implemented," says study author Gaby Maimon, head of the Laboratory of Integrative Brain Function at Rockefeller. Postdoctoral fellows Anmo J. Kim and Jamie K. Fitzgerald, alongside Maimon, report their findings in the August issue of Nature Neuroscience."
Brain complexity: finding the genetic cause
by David Turell , Saturday, August 29, 2015, 14:45 (3374 days ago) @ David Turell
A control of alternate splicing in genetic modification causes neurons to proliferate:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150820144840.htm-"A single molecular event in our cells could hold the key to how we evolved to become the smartest animal on the planet, scientists report. They have uncovered how a small change in a protein called PTBP1 can spur the creation of neurons -- cells that make the brain -- that could have fuelled the evolution of mammalian brains to become the largest and most complex among vertebrates. -***-"The key lays in the process that Blencowe's group studies, known as alternative splicing (AS), whereby gene products are assembled into proteins, which are the building blocks of life. During AS, gene fragments -- called exons -- are shuffled to make different protein shapes. It's like LEGO, where some fragments can be missing from the final protein shape.-***-"Gueroussov previously helped identify PTBP1 as a protein that takes on another form in mammals, in addition to the one common to all vertebrates. The second form of mammalian PTBP1 is shorter because a small fragment is omitted during AS and does not make it into the final protein shape.-"Could this newly acquired, mammalian version of PTBP1 give clues to how our brains evolved?-"PTBP1 is both a target and major regulator of AS. PTBP1's job in a cell is to stop it from becoming a neuron by holding off AS of hundreds of other gene products.-"Gueroussov showed that in mammalian cells, the presence of the second, shorter version of PTBP1 unleashes a cascade of AS events, tipping the scales of protein balance so that a cell becomes a neuron."-Comment: My chicken and egg reasoning: Just because neurons are made in larger number does not create the complex arrangement of a brain. So many more very necessary and specific steps are needed to get humans. Still smells like teleology to me.
Brain complexity: surprise: males and females differ
by David Turell , Friday, September 04, 2015, 01:40 (3369 days ago) @ David Turell
Inhibitory chemicals are different:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150812135651.htm-"Many brain disorders vary between the sexes, but how biology and culture contribute to these differences has been unclear. Now Northwestern neuroscientists have found an intrinsic biological difference between males and females in the molecular regulation of synapses in the hippocampus. This provides a scientific reason to believe that female and male brains may respond differently to drugs targeting certain synaptic pathways.-***-"Among their findings, the scientists found that a drug called URB-597, which regulates a molecule important in neurotransmitter release, had an effect in females that it did not have in males. While the study was done in rats, it has broad implications for humans because this drug and others like it are currently being tested in clinical trials in humans.-***-"Specifically, Woolley and her research team found that in female brains the drug URB-597 increased the inhibitory effect of a key endocannabinoid in the brain, called anandamide, causing a decrease in the release of neurotransmitters. In male brains, the drug had no effect. (The difference is not related to circulating reproductive hormones.)-***-"The subject of many clinical trials, endocannabinoids are molecules that help regulate the amount of certain neurotransmitters released at synapses, the gap between neurons. These molecules are involved in a variety of physiological processes including memory, motivational state, appetite and pain as well as in epilepsy, a neurological disorder. (Their name comes from the fact that endocannabinoids activate the same neural receptors as the active ingredient in marijuana.)-***-"For 20 years, Woolley actively avoided studying sex differences in the brain until her own data showed her that differences between females and males were real. Her discovery, reported in 2012, that estrogens decreased inhibitory synaptic transmission in the brains of female rats but not in males, changed her thinking.-***-"Building on these earlier findings, Woolley and her team used a series of electrophysiological and biochemical studies to pinpoint what causes this effect. The researchers found the difference between males and females lies in the interaction between the molecules ERalpha and mGluR1. Details of the molecular pathway are reported in the new study."-Take away: Connections in computers are fixed, variable in the brain.
Brain complexity: where is 'stop' action?
by David Turell , Friday, September 18, 2015, 14:22 (3354 days ago) @ David Turell
Rat brains are used to discover how the human brain works, assuming that comparison is valid. This study involves suddenly stopping an action :-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/09/150917135227.htm-"You're about to drive through an intersection when the light suddenly turns red. But you're able to slam on the brakes, just in time.-"Johns Hopkins University researchers, working with scientists at the National Institute on Aging, have revealed the precise nerve cells that allow the brain to make this type of split-second change of course. In the latest issue of the journal Nature Neuroscience, the team shows that these feats of self-control happen when neurons in the basal forebrain are silenced."
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by David Turell , Thursday, October 01, 2015, 18:01 (3341 days ago) @ David Turell
Our 24 hour rhythm helps us sleep and is clocked by the sun's 24-hour day/night arrangement. Molecular controls have been found:-http://phys.org/news/2015-10-body-scientists-mechanism-circadian-clock.html-"Over the past few decades, research has advanced our understanding of the circadian clock. One of the proteins critical for determining the timing of the clock, as well as the timing of sleep, is Period2 (PER2).-"In the current study, published 1 October 2015 in the journal Molecular Cell and led by Professor David Virshup from Duke-NUS and Professor Daniel Forger from Michigan, the findings shed light on how PER2 regulates our circadian clock. It also clarifies how the clock adapts to diverse conditions such as temperature and metabolic changes.-"The research team found that the stability of PER2 is dependent on a process called phosphorylation, in which phosphates are added at key sites to influence the function of PER2. Dr Virshup and the team discovered that phosphorylation acts as a switch. This 'phosphoswitch' leads to two alternative fates for PER2: increased stability or increased degradation.-"The researchers report that this phosphoswitch is sensitive to changes in temperature and metabolic signals and so it fine-tunes clock speed as needed. Usually, the rate of a biochemical reaction increases as the temperature rises, so in this case the speed of the body clock should increase if the temperature rises. However, the team showed that at higher temperatures, the phosphoswitch ensures that degradation of PER2 is slower, therefore maintaining the speed of the body clock.-"'This study sheds light on one of the biggest mysteries of the circadian clock in the last 60 years and has helped to explain some of the basic mechanisms that govern the timing of the clock," explained Dr Virshup, Director of the Cancer and Stem Cell Biology Programme at Duke-NUS and Professor of Pediatrics at Duke University. "By using both biochemical analysis and mathematical modelling we demonstrated how the core circadian clock keeps to a 24-hour cycle despite temperature changes and metabolic changes.'"-Comment: these molecular controls are automatic. Why can't it be understood that if our multicellular bodies have so much automaticity in our cellular activity, that it is obvious can bacteria simply work automatically? Automaticity if properly regulated will look just like intelligent action from the outside of all bacteria.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by dhw, Friday, October 02, 2015, 12:28 (3341 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Our 24 hour rhythm helps us sleep and is clocked by the sun's 24-hour day/night arrangement. Molecular controls have been found:-http://phys.org/news/2015-10-body-scientists-mechanism-circadian-clock.html-DAVID: Comment: these molecular controls are automatic. Why can't it be understood that if our multicellular bodies have so much automaticity in our cellular activity, that it is obvious can bacteria simply work automatically? Automaticity if properly regulated will look just like intelligent action from the outside of all bacteria.-We've had a flurry of these articles in the last few months, with similar comments from you, and they've sent me scurrying back through the files. Eventually, I found the one I was looking for, under “Wound repair” (which again you would regard as automated behaviour), and in particular my posts of 20 and 21 April, talking not just of bacteria but of cells and cell communities in general. Here is a small selection of the relevant quotes (my bold):-QUOTE: “We discover that our highest capacities — our thinking, our formulation of goals and plans, our strivings and passions, our sense of well-being and illness — are objectively imaged in our own biological organism right down to the molecular activity of our cells, as also in the cells of every other living creature." “Where molecular biology once taught us that life is more about the interplay of molecules than we might have previously imagined”, writes biologist and philosopher Lenny Moss, “molecular biology is now beginning to reveal the extent to which macromolecules, with their surprisingly flexible and adaptive complex behavior, turn out to be more life-like than we had previously imagined” (2011). -QUOTE: “I cannot do justice to Talbott's article in this short summary. I urge you to read it yourself. The upshot is that organisms are not machines and it is a mistake to think of them as if they were. But if they are not machine-like, what are they? How do they function?-QUOTE: “We can certainly understand how an organism can have a mind, because we ourselves are organisms and we are each directly acquainted with our own mind. But what does it mean to say that the idea of the arrangement of the whole is at work in each of the parts? For this to be true, each of the parts must have the ability to entertain an idea, i.e., mind. [...] Talbott asserts that the binding together goes both ways, not just from part to whole, but from whole to part as well. The higher-level mental unity of the whole informs the mentality of each of the parts and gives direction to their growth and development.”-Your comment then was that [Talbott] “asks questions to which I have answers satisfactory to me. I have the right to my own interpretation of the evidence.”-Quite right. But the fact that “Automaticity if properly regulated will look just like intelligent action from the outside of all bacteria” works both ways: intelligent activity can look like automaticity. We don't know where the borderlines lie, even within ourselves (some people even go so far as to say that we humans are nothing but automatic machines). You accept that our fellow animals are intelligent in their own way; you have, I believe, grudgingly admitted that ants may be intelligent in their own way. Well, perhaps all living organisms are intelligent in their own way. You have often used the expression “programming” in relation to the behaviour of our cellular communities. Computers are programmed, and we call such machines artificial intelligence. Cells are not artificial. Many biologists are convinced that cells have natural intelligence. I only ask that their findings should be taken seriously, as should the possible implications of those findings.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by David Turell , Friday, October 02, 2015, 14:27 (3340 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: Your comment then was that [Talbott] “asks questions to which I have answers satisfactory to me. I have the right to my own interpretation of the evidence.” > > Quite right. But the fact that “Automaticity if properly regulated will look just like intelligent action from the outside of all bacteria” works both ways: intelligent activity can look like automaticity. We don't know where the borderlines lie, even within ourselves (some people even go so far as to say that we humans are nothing but automatic machines). You accept that our fellow animals are intelligent in their own way; you have, I believe, grudgingly admitted that ants may be intelligent in their own way. Well, perhaps all living organisms are intelligent in their own way. You have often used the expression “programming” in relation to the behaviour of our cellular communities. Computers are programmed, and we call such machines artificial intelligence. Cells are not artificial. Many biologists are convinced that cells have natural intelligence. I only ask that their findings should be taken seriously, as should the possible implications of those findings.-Your problem is not recognizing that research into the biochemistry of bacteria finds that all the various ways a bacteria can respond, are a series of biochemical molecular reactions in a chain reaction. As for molecules acting as if alive, read closely the articles I present which describe molecules twisting into different shapes as part of their function (snake-like writhing in appearance). Molecules walking along actin fibers to transport other molecules are fully described. The molecules look alive, but they part of live-action real life! This is what is so amazing: all of these tens of thousands of biochemical complicated molecules in one cell functioning together in a complex dance of life. We can watch it but we have no idea how to create it so it works as life. This is all guided by information in the genome code and its various control layers. If not invented by chance, how did this happen? Intelligence is the only viable answer.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by dhw, Saturday, October 03, 2015, 12:16 (3340 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Your problem is not recognizing that research into the biochemistry of bacteria finds that all the various ways a bacteria can respond, are a series of biochemical molecular reactions in a chain reaction. As for molecules acting as if alive, read closely the articles I present which describe molecules twisting into different shapes as part of their function (snake-like writhing in appearance). Molecules walking along actin fibers to transport other molecules are fully described. The molecules look alive, but they part of live-action real life! This is what is so amazing: all of these tens of thousands of biochemical complicated molecules in one cell functioning together in a complex dance of life. We can watch it but we have no idea how to create it so it works as life. This is all guided by information in the genome code and its various control layers. -My post plus all the quotes was a response to your insistence that these molecules are machines and are not possessed of any kind of “intelligence”. You are now describing what we see when we study the molecules at work. They are material, and so of course what we see are the materials in operation. That is precisely what scientists see when they study the brain at work. But you are the first to complain that studying the biochemicals will not explain thought. Indeed, it is amazing, and we have no idea how to create it. But “research into the biochemistry of bacteria” has gone beyond studying the biochemistry. That is the point that you refuse to recognize. Of course you have every right to your own interpretation of the evidence, but when eminent biologists such as Margulis, McClintock, Shapiro et al say otherwise, you can hardly expect me to toe your line. It is their research that underlies such statements as (my bold): -QUOTE: “We discover that our highest capacities — our thinking, our formulation of goals and plans, our strivings and passions, our sense of well-being and illness — are objectively imaged in our own biological organism right down to the molecular activity of our cells, as also in the cells of every other living creature.”-QUOTE: “The upshot is that organisms are not machines and it is a mistake to think of them as if they were." QUOTE: “each of the parts must have the ability to entertain an idea, i.e. mind." -DAVID: If not invented by chance, how did this happen? Intelligence is the only viable answer.-The disagreement between us here is not over chance versus design but over the question whether bacteria and other cells/cell communities are machines or intelligent beings.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by David Turell , Saturday, October 03, 2015, 15:22 (3339 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: My post plus all the quotes was a response to your insistence that these molecules are machines and are not possessed of any kind of “intelligence”.-Of course there is 'intelligence'. You refuse to accept that these molecules have the ability to follow intelligent information which dictates their activity, intelligent information which is in the codes and modifying layers of the genome of each cell.- > dhw:But “research into the biochemistry of bacteria” has gone beyond studying the biochemistry. That is the point that you refuse to recognize.-I don't know what you are attempting to describe: " has gone beyond studying the biochemistry". I read the articles. All they can study is the biochemistry and then they create theories that suppose how that information creates life with a mental background. They and I both use 'mind', but they suppose it at a cellular level and I place it higher as God-given intelligent information. Your quotes illustrate exactly what I mean:- > QUOTE: “We discover that our highest capacities — our thinking, our formulation of goals and plans, our strivings and passions, our sense of well-being and illness — are objectively imaged in our own biological organism right down to the molecular activity of our cells, as also in the cells of every other living creature.” > > QUOTE: “The upshot is that organisms are not machines and it is a mistake to think of them as if they were." > > QUOTE: “each of the parts must have the ability to entertain an idea, i.e. mind." > > DAVID: If not invented by chance, how did this happen? Intelligence is the only viable answer. > > dhw: The disagreement between us here is not over chance versus design but over the question whether bacteria and other cells/cell communities are machines or intelligent beings.-The scientists you quote, supplied to you by me, can be refuted by Michael Egnor and many others who are on my side of the 50/50 coin toss.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by dhw, Sunday, October 04, 2015, 12:46 (3338 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: My post plus all the quotes was a response to your insistence that these molecules are machines and are not possessed of any kind of “intelligence”.DAVID: Of course there is 'intelligence'. You refuse to accept that these molecules have the ability to follow intelligent information which dictates their activity, intelligent information which is in the codes and modifying layers of the genome of each cell.-Computers also have the “ability to follow”, and the information is programmed into them. That is called artificial intelligence. They do not have natural intelligence of their own. The scientists I have referred to claim that cells are sentient, intelligent beings in their own right. Of course you are free to reject their findings, but please see my final comment below.-dhw: But “research into the biochemistry of bacteria” has gone beyond studying the biochemistry. That is the point that you refuse to recognize. DAVID: I don't know what you are attempting to describe: " has gone beyond studying the biochemistry". I read the articles. All they can study is the biochemistry and then they create theories that suppose how that information creates life with a mental background. They and I both use 'mind', but they suppose it at a cellular level and I place it higher as God-given intelligent information. Your quotes illustrate exactly what I mean...-They also study behaviour, and just as you will deduce that your dog has intelligence of its own by the manner in which he responds to different situations, they deduce the same from their observation of these microorganisms. Incidentally, I don't know why you should consider automatism to be “higher” than natural intelligence, especially when you place humans at the top of the evolutionary pile because of their independent conscious minds. DAVID: The scientists you quote, supplied to you by me, can be refuted by Michael Egnor and many others who are on my side of the 50/50 coin toss.-Refutation is not possible for either side - you have said yourself that we have no way of knowing which hypothesis is correct. But the difference between us on this subject lies in the appeal I made to you in my post last Friday: “I only ask that their findings should be taken seriously, as should the possible implications of those findings.” This whole website is devoted to discussing the nature of life, its possible sources, and all the implications of what little knowledge we have, and its immediate spur was my agnostic antipathy towards atheistic dogmatism. I have the same antipathy towards theistic dogmatism. If there is a 50/50 chance of a hypothesis being right, it seems to me that we should take it seriously, especially in view of its wide-ranging implications for evolution, for God (if he exists) and for his possible methods of working. That is not an appeal for belief, but the good old agnostic plea for open-mindedness!
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by David Turell , Monday, October 05, 2015, 00:04 (3338 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: But “research into the biochemistry of bacteria” has gone beyond studying the biochemistry. That is the point that you refuse to recognize.-> DAVID: I don't know what you are attempting to describe: " has gone beyond studying the biochemistry". I read the articles. All they can study is the biochemistry -> dhw: They also study behaviour, and just as you will deduce that your dog has intelligence of its own by the manner in which he responds to different situations, they deduce the same from their observation of these microorganisms.-But the so-called behavior of bacteria are simple reactions. Dogs are much more than that. > > DAVID: The scientists you quote, supplied to you by me, can be refuted by Michael Egnor and many others who are on my side of the 50/50 coin toss. > > dhw: Refutation is not possible for either side - you have said yourself that we have no way of knowing which hypothesis is correct. But the difference between us on this subject lies in the appeal I made to you in my post last Friday: “I only ask that their findings should be taken seriously, as should the possible implications of those findings.” .... If there is a 50/50 chance of a hypothesis being right, it seems to me that we should take it seriously, ... That is not an appeal for belief, but the good old agnostic plea for open-mindedness!-I have no way of proving which hypothesis is correct, but I have my own strong opinion, based on my knowledge of how single cells work at all levels of evolution, whether alone or as part of a multicellular organism. The white cells in my body repairing a wound or fighting infection have as amazingly purposeful reactions as anything Shapiro describes in the unicellular bacteria of his studies. All the same to me.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by dhw, Monday, October 05, 2015, 12:48 (3337 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: But “research into the biochemistry of bacteria” has gone beyond studying the biochemistry. That is the point that you refuse to recognize. DAVID: I don't know what you are attempting to describe: "has gone beyond studying the biochemistry". I read the articles. All they can study is the biochemistry dhw: They also study behaviour, and just as you will deduce that your dog has intelligence of its own by the manner in which he responds to different situations, they deduce the same from their observation of these microorganisms.-DAVID: But the so-called behavior of bacteria are simple reactions. Dogs are much more than that.-You state "simple reactions" as if it were a fact, while other scientists state the opposite as if it were a fact. 50/50 - keep an open mind.-DAVID: I have no way of proving which hypothesis is correct, but I have my own strong opinion, based on my knowledge of how single cells work at all levels of evolution, whether alone or as part of a multicellular organism. The white cells in my body repairing a wound or fighting infection have as amazingly purposeful reactions as anything Shapiro describes in the unicellular bacteria of his studies. All the same to me.-The quotes concerning cells as thinking beings and not machines were reproduced from the article on wound repair. I know you have your own strong opinion. Dawkins also has a strong opinion, and I'm sure he would also claim it is based on his scientific knowledge. But both of you must be aware that what you call “knowledge” is woefully incomplete, and your opinions simply skate over the gaps in that knowledge. The plea for open-mindedness is a plea to recognize that strong opinions are not justified by the current state of knowledge, and if a hypothesis has a 50/50 chance of being true, it should not be dismissed.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by David Turell , Monday, October 05, 2015, 14:11 (3337 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: The quotes concerning cells as thinking beings and not machines were reproduced from the article on wound repair. I know you have your own strong opinion. Dawkins also has a strong opinion, and I'm sure he would also claim it is based on his scientific knowledge. But both of you must be aware that what you call “knowledge” is woefully incomplete, and your opinions simply skate over the gaps in that knowledge. The plea for open-mindedness is a plea to recognize that strong opinions are not justified by the current state of knowledge, and if a hypothesis has a 50/50 chance of being true, it should not be dismissed.-If these cells I've mentioned ever varied in their approach to the way they solved problems, I'd agree with you, but the mechanisms are always the same, as if cast in stone. You are falling for hyperbole again, and again. Remember I'm the guy who presents these articles. I've added commentary recently because you are always looking for loopholes to protect your picket fence. In my opinion these articles always contain information that support my views, as I interpret the findings.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by dhw, Tuesday, October 06, 2015, 14:52 (3336 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: The quotes concerning cells as thinking beings and not machines were reproduced from the article on wound repair. I know you have your own strong opinion. Dawkins also has a strong opinion, and I'm sure he would also claim it is based on his scientific knowledge. But both of you must be aware that what you call “knowledge” is woefully incomplete, and your opinions simply skate over the gaps in that knowledge. The plea for open-mindedness is a plea to recognize that strong opinions are not justified by the current state of knowledge, and if a hypothesis has a 50/50 chance of being true, it should not be dismissed.-DAVID: If these cells I've mentioned ever varied in their approach to the way they solved problems, I'd agree with you, but the mechanisms are always the same, as if cast in stone. You are falling for hyperbole again, and again. Remember I'm the guy who presents these articles. I've added commentary recently because you are always looking for loopholes to protect your picket fence. In my opinion these articles always contain information that support my views, as I interpret the findings.-It's not a question of you agreeing or disagreeing with me. I am a non-scientist layman confronted with the opinions of scientists who have spent a lifetime studying the subject. In their opinion, their research "contains information that supports their views as they interpret the findings". Their statements are unequivocal: cells are not machines but are living sentient beings. You call this hyperbole, but in the same breath you agree that there is a 50/50 chance of them being right. In my view, that is reason enough to keep an open mind, and to take seriously all the implications of both opinions.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by David Turell , Tuesday, October 06, 2015, 20:10 (3336 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: It's not a question of you agreeing or disagreeing with me. I am a non-scientist layman confronted with the opinions of scientists who have spent a lifetime studying the subject. In their opinion, their research "contains information that supports their views as they interpret the findings". Their statements are unequivocal: cells are not machines but are living sentient beings. You call this hyperbole, but in the same breath you agree that there is a 50/50 chance of them being right. In my view, that is reason enough to keep an open mind, and to take seriously all the implications of both opinions.-You keep missing the point I make. I equate the automatism of my own cells as proof single celled animals are its equivalent. Shapiro studies bacteria, not human kidney cells. I am not sure he recognizes any aspect of my thought pattern.
Brain complexity: a review
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 07, 2015, 14:16 (3335 days ago) @ David Turell
This magazine offers many articles on brain complexity. Worth a look:-http://www.the-scientist.com//?articles.view/articleNo/44085/title/Special-Delivery/-"It's hard to wrap one's mind around the human brain. With its 86 billion neurons, even greater numbers of glial cells, a quadrillion synapses, and millions of miles of axons, this intricate organ doesn't readily reveal its inner workings. But its complexity hasn't kept researchers from striving to sort out the details of the brain's form and functions.-***-"In our annual issue dedicated to neuroscience, two features describe such dogma-busting research. Neuroscientist Margaret McCarthy debunks the idea that male and female brains differ only in brain areas related to reproduction in “Sex Differences in the Brain.” Certain areas of male and female noodles differ significantly from fetal development right on through adolescence and into adulthood, and McCarthy explains that it's not just the neuronal connections; the behavior of glial cells also differs between the sexes. The upshot is that research on brain function must include female as well as male subjects to fully understand the importance of such differences.-"Another long-held belief that has bitten the dust in the last few decades is that adult human brains do not generate new neurons. True, most of our lifetime supply of neurons is produced before birth; they proliferate, in fact, so overexuberantly in the fetal brain that half of them die before we are born. As people age they continue to lose neurons, albeit at a far slower rate. But even as the adult brain loses neurons, we now know, it also gains new ones. In “Brain Gain,” Senior Editor Jef Akst reports on the role played by these new neurons, which are especially prominent in the hippocampus, a brain region vital to learning and memory. As one investigator puts it: “We think that [adult] neurogene­sis provides a way, a mechanism of living in the moment. . . . It clears out old memories and helps form new memories.'”
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by dhw, Wednesday, October 07, 2015, 19:04 (3335 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: You keep missing the point I make. I equate the automatism of my own cells as proof single celled animals are its equivalent. Shapiro studies bacteria, not human kidney cells. I am not sure he recognizes any aspect of my thought pattern.-I don't know what point I have missed. You have made it abundantly clear that you think all our cells act automatically and so do bacteria. But many scientists argue that bacteria are intelligent and so are our cells. The article you quoted on wound repair was unequivocal on that score: “Our highest capacities...are objectively imaged in our own biological organism right down to the molecular activity of our cells.” Margulis, McClintock and Shapiro draw the opposite conclusion from you, and Albrecht-Büehler wrote a book on the subject, entitled Cell Intelligence. www.basic.northwestern.edu/g-buehler/summary.htmCached-QUOTE: My research for the past 30 years or so was devoted to examine whether cells have such signal integration and control center(s). The results suggest that mammalian cells, indeed, posess [sic] intelligence. The experimental basis for this conclusion is presented in the following web pages.-NB His work is based on experiment, not on philosophy.-MARGULIS: "People think that if you can't talk, you can't be intelligent. But you know that's not true if you have a dog. You can communicate with them without talking. If you define intelligence as speaking American English, well maybe they're not. But if you define it in the much more broad sense of behaviors that are modified on the individual level, that involve choice and change and response to the environment, there's every bit of evidence that intelligence is a property of life from the very beginning. It's been modified, of course, and changed and amplified, even, but it's an intrinsic property of cells." (my bold) - See more at: http://www.astrobio.net/interview/bacterial-intelligence/#sthash.lL4xCA7j.dpuf-BARBARA McCLINTOCK: “Every component of the organism is as much of an organism as every other part.” I know you disagree. But you have conceded that the odds are 50/50. That alone is ground enough to take their research seriously, and to consider its possible implications for how evolution might work.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 07, 2015, 20:38 (3335 days ago) @ dhw
BARBARA McCLINTOCK: “Every component of the organism is as much of an organism as every other part.” > > dhw: I know you disagree. But you have conceded that the odds are 50/50. That alone is ground enough to take their research seriously, and to consider its possible implications for how evolution might work.-It's not the research. That is correct. It is the conclusions, and all the ID scientists agree with me. Let's drop the subject, since you don't read the scientific research literature directly, and are making a second-hand judgment.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by dhw, Thursday, October 08, 2015, 12:37 (3335 days ago) @ David Turell
BARBARA McCLINTOCK: “Every component of the organism is as much of an organism as every other part.”-dhw: I know you disagree. But you have conceded that the odds are 50/50. That alone is ground enough to take their research seriously, and to consider its possible implications for how evolution might work.-DAVID: It's not the research. That is correct. It is the conclusions, and all the ID scientists agree with me. Let's drop the subject, since you don't read the scientific research literature directly, and are making a second-hand judgment.-I am not making a judgment at all. I am quoting the judgment of the people who have done the research, and it is them that you disagree with, not me. I only plead for open-mindedness. I would, however, suggest with the greatest respect that they are no less qualified than you to draw conclusions from their research. -I can't drop the subject entirely, as it is sure to crop up again in our discussions on evolution, but otherwise I will gladly stop drawing attention to their conclusions so long as you do not impose your own judgment on the research when you make your comments. 50/50. Fair exchange? -I would not want this disagreement in any way to detract from my indebtedness to you for all these articles that provide me and many others (judging by the number of viewings) from an ongoing process of education. Huge thanks for this!
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by David Turell , Thursday, October 08, 2015, 14:48 (3334 days ago) @ dhw
> DAVID: It's not the research. That is correct. It is the conclusions, and all the ID scientists agree with me. Let's drop the subject, since you don't read the scientific research literature directly, and are making a second-hand judgment. > > dhw: I am not making a judgment at all. I am quoting the judgment of the people who have done the research, and it is them that you disagree with, not me. I only plead for open-mindedness. I would, however, suggest with the greatest respect that they are no less qualified than you to draw conclusions from their research.-And I am summarizing the judgment of many others who agree with me. It is like climate debates, many on both sides.-> > dhw: I can't drop the subject entirely, as it is sure to crop up again in our discussions on evolution, but otherwise I will gladly stop drawing attention to their conclusions so long as you do not impose your own judgment on the research when you make your comments. 50/50. Fair exchange? -No, I have a right to my interpretation based on the findings. > > dhw: I would not want this disagreement in any way to detract from my indebtedness to you for all these articles that provide me and many others (judging by the number of viewings) from an ongoing process of education. Huge thanks for this!-Thank you, and let the battle continue!
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by dhw, Friday, October 09, 2015, 11:48 (3334 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: It's not the research. That is correct. It is the conclusions, and all the ID scientists agree with me. Let's drop the subject, since you don't read the scientific research literature directly, and are making a second-hand judgment. dhw: I am not making a judgment at all. I am quoting the judgment of the people who have done the research, and it is them that you disagree with, not me. I only plead for open-mindedness. I would, however, suggest with the greatest respect that they are no less qualified than you to draw conclusions from their research.-DAVID: And I am summarizing the judgment of many others who agree with me. It is like climate debates, many on both sides.-And since there are many on both sides, you can hardly expect me to allow you to get away with presenting only your side.-dhw: I can't drop the subject entirely, as it is sure to crop up again in our discussions on evolution, but otherwise I will gladly stop drawing attention to their conclusions so long as you do not impose your own judgment on the research when you make your comments. 50/50. Fair exchange? DAVID: No, I have a right to my interpretation based on the findings.-Of course you do. But if you do, I have a right to carry on drawing attention to the conclusions of those experts who disagree with you. And I also have a right to examine the implications of their conclusions, as opposed to the implications of your own conclusions.-dhw: I would not want this disagreement in any way to detract from my indebtedness to you for all these articles that provide me and many others (judging by the number of viewings) from an ongoing process of education. Huge thanks for this! DAVID: Thank you, and let the battle continue!-I'm sure it will.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by David Turell , Friday, October 09, 2015, 21:59 (3333 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: And since there are many on both sides, you can hardly expect me to allow you to get away with presenting only your side.-OK, as long as you recognize that only one side must be right-> > dhw: Of course you do. But if you do, I have a right to carry on drawing attention to the conclusions of those experts who disagree with you. And I also have a right to examine the implications of their conclusions, as opposed to the implications of your own conclusions.-Just stay fair to both sides.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by dhw, Saturday, October 10, 2015, 11:45 (3333 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: And since there are many on both sides, you can hardly expect me to allow you to get away with presenting only your side.-DAVID: OK, as long as you recognize that only one side must be right-That is the agnostic's weakness, though NOBODY knows which is right. -dhw: Of course you do. But if you do, I have a right to carry on drawing attention to the conclusions of those experts who disagree with you. And I also have a right to examine the implications of their conclusions, as opposed to the implications of your own conclusions.-DAVID: Just stay fair to both sides.-That is the agnostic's strength, because NOBODY knows which is right.
Brain complexity: circadian controls
by David Turell , Saturday, October 10, 2015, 14:43 (3332 days ago) @ dhw
> DAVID: Just stay fair to both sides. > > dhw: That is the agnostic's strength, because NOBODY knows which is right.-And I'll stick to evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.
Brain complexity: gene changes add to complexity
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 14, 2015, 20:57 (3328 days ago) @ David Turell
Epigenetic gene changes compound the complex actions of the brain with 100 billion neurons and trillions of connections:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-10-brains-genes-neurons.html- "Genomics examines the entire set of genetic information contained within cells, the activities of genes and the interactions between them. Genomics revealed that the brain's genes are considerably more involved in regulating behavior than ever imagined.-"Genes direct the production of the above-mentioned brain molecules via intermediaries made of RNA. RNA molecules tell the machinery of the cell when and how to make the proteins it needs to grow and function. Technologies developed over the last 20 years have allowed researchers to monitor the ebbs and flows of RNA produced by every gene in the brain with increasing precision. These studies have unveiled a surprisingly close relationship between behavior and gene activity in the brain.-*** "Why is there such a close coupling of brain gene activity and behavior? One hint comes from another bee study. Honeybees respond aggressively and immediately to a threat to their hive; in nature any prolonged delay could prove fatal. This behavioral response is much faster than the time it takes to produce new molecules of RNA, suggesting the initial response is more dependent on the neural system than the genomic one. Nevertheless, my laboratory found changes in the activity of hundreds of genes in the brains of individual bees in response to an intruder in the hive, hours after the threat was neutralized. The threatening experience changed them, in both molecular and behavioral terms.-"Coincident with the persistent changes in brain gene activity, which we could see via changes in amounts of each individual type of RNA molecule, was a persistent increase in the vigilance of the once-agitated bees. This makes good sense; while past performance does not necessarily predict future results on Wall Street, it is a safe bet in nature to remain vigilant after experiencing a threat. Experimental manipulations that simulated the gene activity profile of the post-intruder brain made naïve bees more aggressive, demonstrating a causal relationship between brain gene activity and behavior. The bee brain, confronted with a threat that might be recurring, has genomic apps that help it respond more effectively.-"My colleagues and I also showed that the same kinds of changes occur after stickleback fish and mice are threatened, suggesting that this slow, persistent, genomic response to experience is a universal property of brains.-***-"The brain's neurons and the genomes within them, the hardware and the software, together orchestrate one's response to a new situation, which can vary from person to person. The same dramatic event - a challenge at school or work, a new person in one's social circle - might cause a great deal of stress in one person, and very little in another. We now think that the neural systems of two such people are likely tuned differently by their genomic systems, perhaps as a consequence of differentially stressful past experiences. In the living brain, unlike a computer, the software can help modify the hardware, and as new situations are encountered, the functioning of the neural hardware continues to modify the genomic software. Nature has come up with a "smart" system in which hardware and software are adaptable and interact dynamically!-"This reciprocity between genes and neurons continually builds on an interwoven history that stretches all the way back to inherited individual differences in temperament, which also influence gene activity. And while an acute stress might cause genomic changes that provoke fear and anger for a few hours, chronic stress due to deprivation or violence can cause debilitating health effects because it activates genomic changes in the brain that do not dissipate. In some cases, it induces long-lasting changes to the chemical structure of DNA; these changes, referred to as epigenetic, might even be passed down from one generation to the next."-Comment: No computer will ever match it.
Brain complexity: what it gives us
by David Turell , Sunday, October 18, 2015, 14:08 (3324 days ago) @ David Turell
We don't see or hear reality directly, but what the brain gives us as it interprets reality from past and present patterns learned by the brain:-http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2015/10/13/the-cosmos-inside-your-head-neuroscientist-david-eagleman-tells-the-story-of-the-brain-on-pbs/-"Some who watch will struggle with an inescapable conclusion: the “you” at the center of your personal universe is inseparable from the wetware in your head. There's nothing in the “world out there” that comes to us without interpretation by the brain. And the level of complexity involved in interpreting what we think of as the simplest matters, like distinguishing between colors and estimating distances, is difficult to grasp. In some cases, as Eagleman shows, what's in our head constitutes more of “reality” than what exists outside us.-"For example, we generally think of “seeing” as the result of processing information that comes through our eyes, but the truth is that several times more of what we “see” consists of information produced within the brain. All of us carry around internal models that the brain uses to construct, from endless perceptual fragments, what we call reality. In other words, much of what we experience of reality is, in Eagleman's words, a “beautifully rendered simulation.'”-Comment: As anyone who follows this website knows I take a directly pragmatic view of our secondhand position. It works.
Brain complexity: what it gives us
by dhw, Monday, October 19, 2015, 11:26 (3324 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: We don't see or hear reality directly, but what the brain gives us as it interprets reality from past and present patterns learned by the brain:-http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2015/10/13/the-cosmos-inside-your-head-neurosc...-David's comment: As anyone who follows this website knows I take a directly pragmatic view of our secondhand position. It works.-I have to say it amazes me how often the experts manage to rediscover old news! We have discussed many times the intimately related, though broader epistemological problem that we have no way of knowing objective reality. In the context of perception, the nearest we can get is a general consensus. However, I agree with your view, and scientific experiments show that in many cases the patterns do appear to correspond to objective reality. If they didn't, technology wouldn't work.
Brain complexity: synapse controls
by David Turell , Monday, October 26, 2015, 13:03 (3316 days ago) @ dhw
The connections can be modulated and modified with feedback controls. In other words the circuitry is not fixed:-http://www.the-scientist.com//?articles.view/articleNo/44061/title/Circuit-Dynamo/-"With Abbott, Marder's lab developed the “dynamic clamp,” a method that uses a computer to introduce a conductance—the ease with which an electric current can pass through a circuit—into neurons to model their behavior. They also worked out the negative-feedback system within neurons that allows for changes in parameters while maintaining their normal function. “We were building models and they were fragile. We would change a parameter, and the model would crash. I kept saying that the cells don't crash all the time, so how do cells balance their number of ion channels? What we came up with is a very simple way of thinking about this.”-"The bigger picture. “The big themes that have come from the STG model, and partly from our lab, are that neuronal circuits are multiply modulated, that modulators reconfigure circuits, and that there have to be pretty simple global regulatory mechanisms that help neurons maintain stable electrical activity despite the fact that their ion channels—the proteins in the cell membranes that carry out electrical signaling—are being constantly replaced.”-"For the last 10 years, Marder's lab has been working to understand the extent of variability within individual nervous systems that still allows the systems to remain stable. “For quite a long time, people thought that all nervous systems had to be very tightly tuned,” she says. “And what we are seeing is that, actually, they can be quite variable and change over time and still work well enough because there is a lot of degeneracy in the way circuits are constructed.”-***-"Greatest hits: -• Discovered that acetylcholine acts as a neurotransmitter in the crustacean stomatogastric ganglion (STG), where it functions as both an excitatory and an inhibitory signal • Among the first to describe neuromodulators that acted differently than neurotransmitters, resulting in long-lasting effects on neuronal circuits • Determined that neurons are robust, maintaining their electrical activity patterns despite the turnover of channels and other changes • With colleagues, developed the “dynamic clamp,” a neurophysiological method that can finely manipulate nerve cells and simulate neuronal and muscle systems using computer-adjusted parameters • Showed that there are multiple sets of parameters in neurons and networks that can produce similar output patterns."-Comment: Not your average computer
Brain complexity: microglia prune synapses
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 28, 2015, 23:30 (3314 days ago) @ David Turell
Microglia are the immune cells of the brain, but they have many other functions:-http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rise-of-the-microglia/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20151028-"The discovery that microglia were active in the healthy brain jump-started the exploration into their underlying mechanisms: Why do these cells hang around synapses? And what are they doing?-"For reasons scientists don't yet understand, the brain begins with more synapses than it needs. “As the brain is making its [connections], it's also eliminating them,” says Cornelius Gross, a neuroscientist at the European Molecular Biology Laboratory. Microglia are critical to this process, called pruning: they gobble up synapses, thus helping to sculpt the brain by eliminating unwanted connections.* But how do microglia know which synapses to get rid of and which to leave alone?-"New evidence suggests that a protective tag that keeps healthy cells from being eaten by the body's immune system may also shield against microglial activity in the brain. Emily Lehrman, a doctoral candidate in neuroscientist Beth Stevens's laboratory at Boston's Children's Hospital, presented these unpublished findings at this year's SfN. “The [protective tag]'s receptor is highly expressed in microglia during peak pruning,” Lehrman says. Without an abundance of this receptor, the tag is unable to protect the cells, leading to excess engulfment by microglia and overpruning of neuronal connections.* -"But pruning is not always a bad thing. Other molecules work to ensure that microglia remove weak connections, which can be detrimental to brain function. Cornelius Gross, a neuroscientist at the European Molecular Biology Laboratory, and his research group have been investigating the activity of fractalkine, a key molecule in neuron-microglia signaling whose receptors are found exclusively on microglia. “Microglia mature in a way that matches synaptogenesis, which sets up the hypothesis that neurons are calling out to microglia during this period,” Gross says."-Comment: Show me a computer that cannibalizes itself? Again high complexity beyond the abilities of random evolution.
Brain complexity: study difficulties
by David Turell , Wednesday, November 04, 2015, 21:52 (3307 days ago) @ David Turell
The brain is so complex that implanted electrodes can only tell a tiny bit about it:-http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientific-american-mind-reviews-the-brain-electric/?WT.mc_id=SA_MB_20151104-"Gay takes us step by gruesome step through procedure after procedure in which cocksure docs breach skulls and implant arrays of electrodes into the brains of rats, monkeys, and paralyzed and epileptic humans in brazen attempts to get neurons communicating meaningfully with computers. Occasionally there is a breakthrough: a paraplegic woman thinks a robot arm to feed herself; a monkey whose arms and hands are restrained plays a video game; the brains of two rats are linked in a way that gets the actions of one to affect the actions of the other.-"So amazing, so promising—and so frustratingly primitive. The brain has 100 billion neurons, but even the most sophisticated implants can monitor only a few hundred. Within weeks or months the immune system invariably attacks the implanted electrodes, rendering many of them useless, and the brain changes so rapidly that connections often have to be recalibrated daily to keep them working properly. There are no cures, no miracles—only suggestive demonstrations, foretelling—who knows, really? (my bold)-"The book ends with a sobering reminder of just how rudimentary present-day brain science is. Gay quotes Schwartz: “We have no idea what makes a neuron fire…, and that's at the root of everything.” But you have to start somewhere, right?"-Comment: When we do not know much about neurons, such as how it decides to trigger a current, we are not very far along in understanding the brain, and the brain changes day by day. And how does a committee of intelligent cells plan all this in advance of the construction of the very first brains seen throughout the Cambrian with no precursors to try experimental approaches? Only an existing mind an plan such an organ.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by David Turell , Friday, November 06, 2015, 15:52 (3305 days ago) @ David Turell
The brain recruits more than the optic cortex to help us with vision:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151105141109.htm-"The research sought to better understand "orientation selectivity," a fundamental property of the neurons used by our brain to build a representation of the visual world that surrounds us. In the late 1950s, Torsten Wiesel and David Hubel discovered that the activity of neurons in the primary visual cortex strongly depends on the orientation of the visual features seen by those neurons--work for which they later received the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine. However, not all orientation selective neurons are the same. Some are very selective and will only be activated by a single orientation (for example, a vertical line), but others are much less selective and will be activated by many different orientations (for example, a vertical line and slightly tilted lines). The origin and purpose of this diversity have remained open questions for many years.-"In their study, the NYU researchers measured the activity of cells in the primary visual cortex and developed a mathematical model designed to predict the exact patterns of activity produced by individual cells. The model succeeded in reproducing the measured activity patterns and revealed that multiple mechanisms are responsible for the diversity in orientation selectivity. The most important mechanism, the model suggested, is the manner in which cortical neurons gather inputs from neurons in other parts of the brain.-"This insight enabled the researchers to investigate the consequences of neural diversity in a systematic way. They computed how much information small groups of model neurons collectively transmitted when responding to real-world images. They varied the diversity of those groups and found that groups whose diversity matched the brain's diversity transmitted most information.-"'The brain is a perplexing organ that we will probably never fully understand," observes Goris. "But sometimes, we find that a simple principle goes a long way in explaining some of its intricacy: The visual world is diverse, and the brain seems to mimic this diversity to maximize the amount of information it can extract.'" (my bold)-Comment: I think the thought that we will never fully understand the brain is an honest assessment. Romansh has given me the impression that he thinks the brain is fooling us, while I think it is there to help us. Yes, what we get is secondhand, but is appears to be accurate, so why philosophize that we are not in control of our observations? --Comment:
Brain complexity: seratonuin producing neurons
by David Turell , Friday, November 06, 2015, 23:02 (3305 days ago) @ David Turell
Turns out there are several types in the brain stem controlling different functions. A reminder that the brain produces hormones as well as nerve signals. No computer does that:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-11-uncover-diverse-subtypes-serotonin-producing-neurons.html-"These brain cells make the neurotransmitter serotonin, which helps regulate mood, appetite, breathing rate, body temperature and more.-***-"Last year, a team led by Harvard Medical School genetics professor Susan Dymecki defined a subgroup of serotonergic neurons in mice by showing that those cells specifically, among all serotonergic neurons, were responsible for increasing the breathing rate when too much carbon dioxide builds up in the body.-***-"The researchers report in Neuron that serotonergic neurons come in at least six major molecular subtypes defined by distinct expression patterns of hundreds of genes. In many cases, the subtypes modulate different behaviors in the body. By conducting a cross-disciplinary series of experiments, the researchers found that the subtypes also vary in their developmental lineage, anatomical distribution, combinations of receptors on the cell surface and electrical firing properties.-"'This work reveals how diverse serotonin neurons are at the molecular level, which may help to explain how, collectively, they are able to perform so many distinct functions," said Benjamin Okaty, a postdoctoral researcher in the Dymecki lab and co-first author of the paper.-***-"Finally, the study provides an example of a highly integrative approach to understanding brain function at multiple scales, "linking genes and gene networks to the properties of single neurons and populations of neuron subtypes, all the way up to the level of animal behaviors," said Okaty. "I think it's a useful template going forward. Imagine what we'd learn by applying this approach to all the neurotransmitter systems in the brain.'" -Comment: this is a logical discovery. Since the brain constantly receives information about bodily functions, it is not a surprise that hormones are produced by the brain to instantly control functions, as well as controls by nerve impulses. Again, the brain is much more that a computer.
Brain complexity: seratonin brain controls
by David Turell , Tuesday, December 29, 2015, 18:40 (3252 days ago) @ David Turell
Further study into the mechanisms serotonin controls. The brain is s neuronal network with hormonal controls:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151223130543.htm-"Researchers at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine have created the first complete model to describe the role that serotonin plays in brain development and structure. Serotonin, also called 5-hydroxytryptamine [5-HT], is an important neuromodulator of brain development and the structure and function of neuronal (nerve cell) circuits.-***-"Dr. Galán and his team used high-density multi-electrode arrays in a mouse model of serotonin deficiency to record and analyze neuronal activity. The study supports the importance of the serotonin which is specified and maintained by a specific gene, the Pet-1 gene -- for normal functioning of the neurons, synapses and networks in the cortex, as well as proper development of brain circuitry. Serotonin abnormalities have been linked to autism and epilepsy, depression and anxiety."-Comment: This shows another level of complexity and would indicate a major role in brain plasticity.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by dhw, Saturday, November 07, 2015, 09:29 (3305 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by dhw, Saturday, November 07, 2015, 09:36
"'The brain is a perplexing organ that we will probably never fully understand," observes Goris. "But sometimes, we find that a simple principle goes a long way in explaining some of its intricacy: The visual world is diverse, and the brain seems to mimic this diversity to maximize the amount of information it can extract.'" (David's bold)-David's comment: I think the thought that we will never fully understand the brain is an honest assessment. Romansh has given me the impression that he thinks the brain is fooling us, while I think it is there to help us. Yes, what we get is secondhand, but is appears to be accurate, so why philosophize that we are not in control of our observations? -I don't think anyone would claim that the brain is objectively reliable, since different people so often see the same thing differently. On our epistemology thread ages ago, I suggested that the nearest we can get to objective truth is some kind of consensus, but I agree with you that when this consensus is achieved, and especially when science and technology confirm the accuracy of our perceptions, it is absurd to assume that none of them are accurate. In fact, our daily lives would turn to sheer chaos if our perceptions did not for the most part correspond to reality.-I would take Goris's statement one step further and suggest that we will probably never understand how thought can emerge from materials. If you agree, perhaps you will stop asking me how cells might be able to ‘think'!
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by David Turell , Saturday, November 07, 2015, 15:26 (3304 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: I don't think anyone would claim that the brain is objectively reliable, since different people so often see the same thing differently.-Eye witness memory is often at odds because the events are sudden, startling and even confusing.-> dhw: On our epistemology thread ages ago, I suggested that the nearest we can get to objective truth is some kind of consensus, but I agree with you that when this consensus is achieved, and especially when science and technology confirm the accuracy of our perceptions, it is absurd to assume that none of them are accurate. In fact, our daily lives would turn to sheer chaos if our perceptions did not for the most part correspond to reality.-Absolutely correct. > > dhw: I would take Goris's statement one step further and suggest that we will probably never understand how thought can emerge from materials. If you agree, perhaps you will stop asking me how cells might be able to ‘think'!-Networks of plastic neurons make human thought. I'll always question your fondest wish that ordinary somatic cells can ponder their future.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by dhw, Sunday, November 08, 2015, 13:41 (3303 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I don't think anyone would claim that the brain is objectively reliable, since different people so often see the same thing differently.-DAVID: Eye witness memory is often at odds because the events are sudden, startling and even confusing.-I used “see” in a much wider sense. Our brains (using senses and intellect) are highly selective, and how we select is influenced by many different factors. We may read the same book, look at the same landscape, consider the same evidence, but we may never agree on what we have perceived! dhw: I would take Goris's statement one step further and suggest that we will probably never understand how thought can emerge from materials. If you agree, perhaps you will stop asking me how cells might be able to ‘think'!-DAVID: Networks of plastic neurons make human thought. I'll always question your fondest wish that ordinary somatic cells can ponder their future.-As above, your subjective mind selects and in this case distorts. “Ponder their future” conjures up a human-type intelligence which I'm sure even Margulis, McClintock, Shapiro & Co would find way over the top. The concept involves absorbing information from the environment, processing it, and figuring out how it might be exploited. The environment would be present, and the processing, communication and cooperation between cell communities would be geared to the present, as they would be in your own hypothesis. The latter entails a computer programme, passed down from protocell to Freddy Fish a couple of thousand million years later, which suddenly switches itself on and transforms a fin to a leg, together with all the other necessary fish-out-of-water adjustments. Why are you now specifying “ordinary somatic cells”? Are you saying that maybe germ cells do have an intelligence of their own? Once a cell community is formed, I am suggesting that, just as with an ant colony, there is some kind of mind directing operations. That does not mean that every cell/ant in the community is a ponderer of the future. Most will perform the tasks they are instructed to perform. In your “wiggles” post you wrote: “As with everything I've presented, these molecules seem to know what they are doing. I think they are controlled by onboard instructions. I fully expect more research will show that.” We are in agreement, except that in my hypothesis the “onboard instructions” were not issued 3.8 billion years ago in a computer programme or by a constantly dabbling God (what research will be able to show that, eh?) but by the equivalent of an autonomous “brain” within the cell community itself. (See also under “multicellularity”.)
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by David Turell , Sunday, November 08, 2015, 16:29 (3303 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: The concept involves absorbing information from the environment, processing it, and figuring out how it might be exploited. -Your "figuring out" is where I have the most problem. If evolution is punctuated, and it is, and if species arise full-blown, and they are, how do committees of cells plan to make the jump? From horse drawn carriage to auto is such a jump. Even you offer the possibility of a God-given planning mechanism. Frankly, that is what is required. I don't care if it is God directly or through His mechanism. God is still the author.-> > dhw: Why are you now specifying “ordinary somatic cells”? Are you saying that maybe germ cells do have an intelligence of their own? Once a cell community is formed, I am suggesting that, just as with an ant colony, there is some kind of mind directing operations.-Yes, germ cells are the likely spot for future planning. That is where the Pluripotential code lies. -> dhw: We are in agreement, except that in my hypothesis the “onboard instructions” were not issued 3.8 billion years ago in a computer programme or by a constantly dabbling God (what research will be able to show that, eh?) but by the equivalent of an autonomous “brain” within the cell community itself. -And the source of the instructions in the 'autonomous brain' is?
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by dhw, Monday, November 09, 2015, 12:54 (3302 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by dhw, Monday, November 09, 2015, 13:20
dhw: The concept involves absorbing information from the environment, processing it, and figuring out how it might be exploited. DAVID: Your "figuring out" is where I have the most problem. If evolution is punctuated, and it is, and if species arise full-blown, and they are, how do committees of cells plan to make the jump? From horse drawn carriage to auto is such a jump. Even you offer the possibility of a God-given planning mechanism. Frankly, that is what is required. I don't care if it is God directly or through His mechanism. God is still the author.-Thank you for dropping the expression “ponder their future”. It is essential that we should not try to equate cellular intelligence with human intelligence. You have quite rightly pinpointed the two major problems with my hypothesis. What is the source of this mechanism (if it exists), and how would it work? These are the same major problems arising from all the hypotheses. What is the source of your God and his intelligence? “First cause” is the flabbiest of answers, as it simply means no cause. You might as well say “I don't know”. (I am happy to accept energy and matter as first cause, but not intelligence.) How does intelligence work in any organism? Same answer. Nobody knows. Scientists can only pin-point the biochemical, material processes that are linked to thought in humans and animals. They do the same with single cell organisms, but only in the latter do you insist that there is no thought involved. You are right to point out the gaps in my hypothesis. And I think I am also right to point out the gaps in yours. dhw: Why are you now specifying “ordinary somatic cells”? Are you saying that maybe germ cells do have an intelligence of their own? Once a cell community is formed, I am suggesting that, just as with an ant colony, there is some kind of mind directing operations. DAVID: Yes, germ cells are the likely spot for future planning. That is where the Pluripotential code lies.-Then perhaps we can say the “brain” of the cell community is likely to reside within the germ cells, and the somatic cells carry out its instructions? The “brain” being your 3.8-billion-year computer programme for all innovations, or my autonomous intelligence which works out what instructions to give them. DAVID: And the source of the instructions in the 'autonomous brain' is?-No, the autonomous "brain" IS the source of the instructions. Or would you say that when you write these posts, your own brain is GIVEN instructions what to write. If so, what is the source of those instructions? (I am not comparing cellular thought to human thought here. The analogy is with the process, not the substance.)
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by David Turell , Monday, November 09, 2015, 15:40 (3302 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: What is the source of your God and his intelligence? “First cause” is the flabbiest of answers, as it simply means no cause.-If you believe in a chain of cause and effect, there must be a first cause. > > dhw:Then perhaps we can say the “brain” of the cell community is likely to reside within the germ cells, and the somatic cells carry out its instructions?-Just remember that DNA comes in germ cells and directs the making of the whole organism. Your statement is correct.-> > DAVID: And the source of the instructions in the 'autonomous brain' is? > > dhw: No, the autonomous "brain" IS the source of the instructions. Or would you say that when you write these posts, your own brain is GIVEN instructions what to write. If so, what is the source of those instructions? (I am not comparing cellular thought to human thought here. The analogy is with the process, not the substance.)-The source is my control over my consciousness which allows free and logical thought, recognizing we have no idea how/why consciousness appears or how it works, per Nagel.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by dhw, Tuesday, November 10, 2015, 18:39 (3301 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: What is the source of your God and his intelligence? “First cause” is the flabbiest of answers, as it simply means no cause. DAVID: If you believe in a chain of cause and effect, there must be a first cause. You left out my next sentence, which was that “I am happy to accept energy and matter as first cause, but not intelligence.” My objection is to your claim that somehow the magic formula of “first cause” is enough to explain intelligence.-DAVID: And the source of the instructions in the 'autonomous brain' is? dhw: No, the autonomous "brain" IS the source of the instructions. Or would you say that when you write these posts, your own brain is GIVEN instructions what to write. If so, what is the source of those instructions? (I am not comparing cellular thought to human thought here. The analogy is with the process, not the substance.) DAVID: The source is my control over my consciousness which allows free and logical thought, recognizing we have no idea how/why consciousness appears or how it works, per Nagel.-Perhaps I should have substituted “intelligence” for “brain”. We are both struggling with terminology here, but I don't think you will disagree if I say it is your intelligence that produces your ideas (or instructions what to write), and your intelligence includes your consciousness and your apparent control over your consciousness. It makes no sense to say that the source of what you write is control over your consciousness. Control may “allow for” but it doesn't supply thought. And since we have no idea how/why ANY thought processes in ANY organism appear or work - as per all of us, not just Nagel - my answer to your original question is that the source of the instructions is “intelligence” itself (whose source is unknown), both for you and for bacteria.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by David Turell , Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 01:01 (3301 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw:You left out my next sentence, which was that “I am happy to accept energy and matter as first cause, but not intelligence.” My objection is to your claim that somehow the magic formula of “first cause” is enough to explain intelligence.-I don't view it that way. First cause must have intelligence to explain the invention of the reality in which we live.-> dhw: And since we have no idea how/why ANY thought processes in ANY organism appear or work - as per all of us, not just Nagel - my answer to your original question is that the source of the instructions is “intelligence” itself (whose source is unknown), both for you and for bacteria.-But at least we can say that the intelligence must have a source.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by BBella , Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 07:42 (3301 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: And since we have no idea how/why ANY thought processes in ANY organism appear or work - as per all of us, not just Nagel - my answer to your original question is that the source of the instructions is “intelligence” itself (whose source is unknown), both for you and for bacteria. > > [David] But at least we can say that the intelligence must have a source.-I'm not sure I understand why intelligence (or energy or matter for that matter) "must have a source". Wouldn't it be equivalent or at least more clear (for me anyway) to say - energy, matter and intelligence is source? I could agree to that. There may have never been a source, origin or ground zero for anything that IS but what IS. The reason we can find no 'source" of all that IS "out there" is because there is nothing other than what IS.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by David Turell , Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 15:17 (3300 days ago) @ BBella
> > [David] But at least we can say that the intelligence must have a source. > > Bbella: I'm not sure I understand why intelligence (or energy or matter for that matter) "must have a source". Wouldn't it be equivalent or at least more clear (for me anyway) to say - energy, matter and intelligence is source? I could agree to that. There may have never been a source, origin or ground zero for anything that IS but what IS. The reason we can find no 'source" of all that IS "out there" is because there is nothing other than what IS.-Intelligence cannot exist free-floating by itself. It must have some substrate, as you indicate in energy and/or matter. You seem to agree with me that 'something' has always existed to supply the initial intelligence behind this reality.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by BBella , Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 21:03 (3300 days ago) @ David Turell
> > > [David] But at least we can say that the intelligence must have a source. > > > > Bbella: I'm not sure I understand why intelligence (or energy or matter for that matter) "must have a source". Wouldn't it be equivalent or at least more clear (for me anyway) to say - energy, matter and intelligence is source? I could agree to that. There may have never been a source, origin or ground zero for anything that IS but what IS. The reason we can find no 'source" of all that IS "out there" is because there is nothing other than what IS. > > Intelligence cannot exist free-floating by itself. It must have some substrate, as you indicate in energy and/or matter. You seem to agree with me that 'something' has always existed to supply the initial intelligence behind this reality.-I agree. Energy, matter and intelligence all reside together as one that IS and always was.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by David Turell , Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 21:17 (3300 days ago) @ BBella
> Bbella: I agree. Energy, matter and intelligence all reside together as one that IS and always was.-Agreed
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by dhw, Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 15:17 (3300 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: You left out my next sentence, which was that “I am happy to accept energy and matter as first cause, but not intelligence.” My objection is to your claim that somehow the magic formula of “first cause” is enough to explain intelligence.-DAVID: I don't view it that way. First cause must have intelligence to explain the invention of the reality in which we live.-First cause need not have intelligence if the reality in which we live (including intelligence) evolved as opposed to being invented.-dhw: And since we have no idea how/why ANY thought processes in ANY organism appear or work - as per all of us, not just Nagel - my answer to your original question is that the source of the instructions is “intelligence” itself (whose source is unknown), both for you and for bacteria. DAVID: But at least we can say that the intelligence must have a source. -BBELLA: I'm not sure I understand why intelligence (or energy or matter for that matter) "must have a source". Wouldn't it be equivalent or at least more clear (for me anyway) to say - energy, matter and intelligence is source? I could agree to that. There may have never been a source, origin or ground zero for anything that IS but what IS. The reason we can find no 'source" of all that IS "out there" is because there is nothing other than what IS.-The problem, as I see it, is that what IS includes life on Earth and us, and we want to know how that started. I think David will go along with energy, matter and intelligence as source - intelligence being the mind of the God he believes invented life on Earth. He may be right. But it is equally possible that intelligence has not always been part of what IS: i.e. that there is not one eternal mind governing the universe, but minds have evolved out of an infinite and eternal mixing of mindless energy and matter (i.e. intelligence does have a source). I find both hypotheses equally incredible, but one of them must be closer to the truth.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by David Turell , Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 16:25 (3300 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: The problem, as I see it, is that what IS includes life on Earth and us, and we want to know how that started. I think David will go along with energy, matter and intelligence as source - intelligence being the mind of the God he believes invented life on Earth. He may be right. But it is equally possible that intelligence has not always been part of what IS: i.e. that there is not one eternal mind governing the universe, but minds have evolved out of an infinite and eternal mixing of mindless energy and matter (i.e. intelligence does have a source). I find both hypotheses equally incredible, but one of them must be closer to the truth.-For me 'mixing mindless energy and matter' is a complete non-starter. The evolution we see appears to be a driven process, if convergence is accepted. What drives the 'mindless'? I see nothing except chance permutations, which become organized into 'mind'. Yes, we can dream of the impossible, but that doesn't make it logical.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by BBella , Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 21:12 (3300 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: You left out my next sentence, which was that “I am happy to accept energy and matter as first cause, but not intelligence.” My objection is to your claim that somehow the magic formula of “first cause” is enough to explain intelligence. > > DAVID: I don't view it that way. First cause must have intelligence to explain the invention of the reality in which we live. > > First cause need not have intelligence if the reality in which we live (including intelligence) evolved as opposed to being invented. > > dhw: And since we have no idea how/why ANY thought processes in ANY organism appear or work - as per all of us, not just Nagel - my answer to your original question is that the source of the instructions is “intelligence” itself (whose source is unknown), both for you and for bacteria. > DAVID: But at least we can say that the intelligence must have a source. > > BBELLA: I'm not sure I understand why intelligence (or energy or matter for that matter) "must have a source". Wouldn't it be equivalent or at least more clear (for me anyway) to say - energy, matter and intelligence is source? I could agree to that. There may have never been a source, origin or ground zero for anything that IS but what IS. The reason we can find no 'source" of all that IS "out there" is because there is nothing other than what IS. > > The problem, as I see it, is that what IS includes life on Earth and us, and we want to know how that started. I think David will go along with energy, matter and intelligence as source - intelligence being the mind of the God he believes invented life on Earth. He may be right. But it is equally possible that intelligence has not always been part of what IS: -For me, they are entangled and cannot be separated. Intelligence, for me is like glue that holds all that IS together. Take away intelligence and you have nothing, just free floating dry dust - if that!->i.e. that there is not one eternal mind governing the universe, -I can agree with this. In the sense there is not a one mind cosmic god as in one point of awareness, similar to a human.->but minds have evolved out of an infinite and eternal mixing of mindless energy and matter (i.e. intelligence does have a source). -It seems to me, without intelligence there would be nothing to cause anything to ever be. So intelligence had to have always been. Just not a one minded intelligence. Just intelligence.->I find both hypotheses equally incredible, but one of them must be closer to the truth.-I find it too incredible to even imagine intelligence to have never been.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by David Turell , Wednesday, November 11, 2015, 21:20 (3300 days ago) @ BBella
> > dhw:I find both hypotheses equally incredible, but one of them must be closer to the truth. > >Bbella I find it too incredible to even imagine intelligence to have never been.-Intelligence is eternal in some substrate.
Brain complexity: whole brain vision mechanisms
by dhw, Thursday, November 12, 2015, 21:24 (3299 days ago) @ BBella
DAVID: For me 'mixing mindless energy and matter' is a complete non-starter. The evolution we see appears to be a driven process, if convergence is accepted. What drives the 'mindless'? I see nothing except chance permutations, which become organized into 'mind'. Yes, we can dream of the impossible, but that doesn't make it logical.-I accept convergence, and suggest that it may be driven by different intelligent organisms seeking solutions to the same problems. They are not mindless. The great question then is where did THEIR minds come from? I can't answer. Your answer is that they came from another mind but we shouldn't ask where THAT came from, because THAT didn't come from anywhere: it just IS. You can dream of the impossible, but that doesn't make it logical.-BBELLA: For me, they are entangled and cannot be separated. Intelligence, for me is like glue that holds all that IS together. Take away intelligence and you have nothing, just free floating dry dust - if that! [...] It seems to me, without intelligence there would be nothing to cause anything to ever be. So intelligence had to have always been. Just not a one minded intelligence. Just intelligence.-Basically, this is an extreme form of panpsychism: that all things have some form of mental aspect (religious panpsychists would say their God is in everything). My hypothesis concerning the intelligent cell certainly puts intelligence into all living organisms, but you agreed that the stone thrown into the water was not intelligent. This is where I find myself having to make distinctions. For me, intelligence has to entail a degree of awareness, and while I have no difficulty attributing awareness to, say, bacteria, I can't make the leap to inorganic objects like stones. On a universal level, there is an order in our particular solar system which has created conditions suitable for life, but I can't imagine our sun or the stars having a mind. I don't know what sort of “order” there is in the billions of other solar systems that come and go - as ours will eventually. So is it all just energy and matter mindlessly coming and going, and in this endless process eventually and perhaps inevitably one particular combination struck lucky? How much awareness does your intelligent “glue” have? If it's aware enough deliberately to create a universe and life, you might as well call it God. Dhw: I find both hypotheses equally incredible, but one of them must be closer to the truth. BBELLA: I find it too incredible to even imagine intelligence to have never been. -If we think of the universe in terms of stones spreading ripples in water, and we include consciousness and deliberate action as attributes of intelligence, is it still incredible?
Brain complexity: motion and vision
by David Turell , Thursday, November 19, 2015, 16:06 (3292 days ago) @ dhw
There are two pathways to interpret motion:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151118180544.htm-"A new study reveals how the brain understands motion and still objects to help us navigate our complex visual world-***-"Our brain's visual system consists of a "where" (dorsal) pathway and a "what" (ventral) pathway. A normally function brain can imply motion from still pictures, such as the speed line in cartoons being interpreted as motion streaks of a still object. However, patients with lesions to the dorsal pathway know where objects are but have difficulty recognizing them, while patients with lesions to the ventral pathway have trouble recognizing objects but no problem locating them.-***-"The Dartmouth researchers studied neural activity to understand how the brain processes motion in still pictures of animate and inanimate objects. Their findings showed that the brain may process motion differently based on whether it is animate motion or inanimate motion. This suggests the brain not only categorizes objects into animate versus inanimate, but it knows the location of objects based on whether they are animate or inanimate.-"'Our findings suggest the brain's two visual pathways interact with each other instead of being separate when processing motion and objects," Lu says. "To fully understand a complex scene when multiple objects moving at different speed, the brain combines the motion signal with the knowledge of how a particular object will move in the world."-Comment: I view this as the brain using its background of stored information to help us, not control us.
Brain complexity: specific taste areas
by David Turell , Thursday, November 19, 2015, 18:28 (3292 days ago) @ David Turell
Mouse studies show clearly that there are specific areas for sweet, sour, bitter, etc.-http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/your-brain-can-taste-without-your-tongue/?WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20151119-"What we discovered just a few years ago is that there are regions of the brain—regions of the cortex—where particular fields of neurons represent these different tastes again, so there's a sweet field, a bitter field, a salty field, etcetera." Nick Ryba [pron. Reba], a sensory neuroscientist at the National Institutes of Health.-"Ryba and his colleagues found that you can actually taste without a tongue at all, simply by stimulating the "taste" part of the brain—the insular cortex. They ran the experiment in mice with a special sort of brain implant—a fiber-optic cable that turns neurons on with a pulse of laser light. And by switching on the "bitter" sensing part of the brain, they were able to make mice pucker up, as if they were tasting something bitter—even though absolutely nothing bitter was touching the tongues of the mice.-"In another experiment, the researchers fed the mice a bitter flavoring on their tongues—but then made it more palatable by switching on the "sweet" zone of the brain. "What we were doing here was adding the sweetness, but only adding it in the brain, not in what we were giving to the mouse." Think adding sugar to your coffee—but doing it only in your mind. The findings appear in the journal Nature. [Yueqing Peng et al, Sweet and bitter taste in the brain of awake behaving animals]-"Ryba says the study suggests that a lot of our basic judgments about taste—sweet means good, bitter means bad—are actually hard-wired at the level of the brain."-Comment: My guess from pediatric studies, that just as skin pin prick spots have to be learned by the infant, so does taste and the brain sets up predetermined spots for interpretation.
Brain complexity: vision system
by David Turell , Thursday, December 03, 2015, 01:18 (3279 days ago) @ David Turell
The vision we have does not begin at birth. it has to develop as the baby begins to try to see:-http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/11/brain_neurons_a101211.html-"In the retina, several million nerve cells provide information for more than 100 Million cells in the visual cortex. The visual cortex is one of the first regions of the brain to process visual information. In this brain area, various features as spatial orientation, color and size of visual stimuli are processed and represented.-***-"“Our study shows that self-organization of neuronal circuits in the brain is the most plausible theory for the detailed structure of circuits in the visual system” explains Wolfgang Keil, who graduated from the MPI for Dynamics and Self-Organization and is currently working at Rockefeller University. This result is consistent with the observation that mammals, including us human beings, learn to see after birth. Random networks, which might exist early on, probably do not suffice for full vision.-***-" But through visual experience and dynamic reorganization of connections, the brain rewires itself to such a degree that only little is left from the initial wiring. "Our study shows that self-organization of neuronal circuits in the brain is the most plausible theory for the detailed structure of circuits in the visual system" -***-"The visual cortex does not "see" the outside world. If you were a neuron, operating in the dark inside brain tissue, you would only sense chemical signals coming and going. How would neurons ever "know" how to "self-organize" in such a way that their representations of incoming signals would form a 576-megapixel motion picture that corresponds to the external world? -***-"It's a wonder of nature -- and a darned good thing -- that amid many billions of similar cells in the brain and spinal cord, neurons can extend their tendrillous axons to exactly the right place to form connections, otherwise we wouldn't move, sense, or think properly, if at all.-***-"Interesting as these signals are, they don't explain the larger issue: How do these proteins know when and where to signal? How can a single protein know the "big picture" that the body is aiming for during development? It's analogous to city planners designing a computer center to control the city's traffic signals. Somebody or something with a plan and purpose has to know the overall design goal and how to build it.-***-"Our results also show that Robo3.1 serves as an integrative hub: Its three diverse actions in response to three different cues -- mediating NELL2 repulsion from the motor column, potentiating midline Netrin-1 attraction, and antagonizing midline Slit repulsion -- act simultaneously, are mutually reinforcing, and serve the common purpose of steering commissural axons toward and across the midline. This multiplicity of mechanisms likely helps ensure high-fidelity steering of axons to their targets."-More background:-https://www.mpg.de/9757638/random-wiring-nerves-"The result: random connections do not suffice to explain the observed layout of the brain. The scientists conclude that initially random connections in the visual cortex are reorganized to a precisely determined layout using self-organization. Random wiring, in the end, plays a small role."-Comment: The brain works with us to set up networks that provide excellent vision. This is irreducible complexity, requiring planning and plasticity controls, as the articles indicate. No way Darwin did this.
Brain complexity: six new cell types found
by David Turell , Friday, December 04, 2015, 20:46 (3277 days ago) @ David Turell
As if it couldn't get more complex, it is:-http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a18339/new-kinds-of-brain-cells/-"Today a team of neuroscientists led by Xiaolong Jiang and Andreas Tolias at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston announced six altogether new types of brain cells. The neuroscientists came across these new neurons while conducting a census of brain cells in adult mice in a part of the brain called the the primary visual cortex, an area chiefly concerned with sight. The researchers credit their new insight to a recently developed method of slicing razor-thin slices of mature brain.-***-"Most previous studies investigating the odd menagerie of brain cells have used juvenile mice, mostly because it's easier to get high-resolution pictures of their brains. But there's a problem: Brains keep maturing and complicating as they get older, and Jiang's team believes that their new-found neurons might not form until adulthood. -***-"In their study, Jiang and his colleagues meticulously surveyed 11,000 neurons in three layers of the primary visual cortex in adult mice.? All told, they found 15 types of neurons, six of which had never before been seen or described. The neuroscientists used a complex recoding method called octuple patch-clamp recordings—a way of tracking the many connections brain cells form with one another, all at the same time.-***-"Although we call them all neurons, your brain has an enormous menagerie of brain cells. Even if we ignore the specialized neurons that attach to our muscles or sensory organs like our eyes and tongue (and forget our brains' helpful support cells, called glial cells) mammals like mice or humans are thought to have in excess of hundreds of flavors of so-called interneurons—brain cells that just connect with other brain cells. And today's six new neurons fall in this class.?-*** "'Our brains contain billions of neurons linked through trillions of synaptic connections. Obviously, we are faced with a problem of immense complexity," explains Tolias. "However, if neurons can be classified into distinct cell types... and if we understand [their underlying] rules, it will be an important step in deciphering the wiring of the brain," he says.?-***-"'And we can safely say that there a plenty more cell types to be discovered, throughout the brain in both mice and humans. We only studied a few layers in the visual cortex of a mouse, even just in other parts of that same cortex, there could be many more cell types waiting to be discovered," says Tolias."-Comment: As Tolias anticipates?, further study will only find more complexity, and the same can be said for the layers of the genome controls. Keeps looking more an more like design.
Brain complexity: Chomski's internal grammar found
by David Turell , Tuesday, December 08, 2015, 15:55 (3273 days ago) @ David Turell
Noam Chomski has contended that the brain has an onboard grammar mechanism that sets us up for language interpretation:-"A team of neuroscientists has found new support for MIT linguist Noam Chomsky's decades-old theory that we possess an "internal grammar" that allows us to comprehend even nonsensical phrases. - "'One of the foundational elements of Chomsky's work is that we have a grammar in our head, which underlies our processing of language," explains David Poeppel, the study's senior researcher and a professor in New York University's Department of Psychology. "Our neurophysiological findings support this theory: we make sense of strings of words because our brains combine words into constituents in a hierarchical manner—a process that reflects an 'internal grammar' mechanism."-***-"The study's subjects listened to sentences in both English and Mandarin Chinese in which the hierarchical structure between words, phrases, and sentences was dissociated from intonational speech cues—the rise and fall of the voice—as well as statistical word cues. The sentences were presented in an isochronous fashion—identical timing between words—and participants listened to both predictable sentences (e.g., "New York never sleeps," "Coffee keeps me awake"), grammatically correct, but less predictable sentences (e.g., "Pink toys hurt girls"), or word lists ("eggs jelly pink awake") and various other manipulated sequences.-"The design allowed the researchers to isolate how the brain concurrently tracks different levels of linguistic abstraction—sequences of words ("furiously green sleep colorless"), phrases ("sleep furiously" "green ideas"), or sentences ("Colorless green ideas sleep furiously")—while removing intonational speech cues and statistical word information, which many say are necessary in building sentences.-"Their results showed that the subjects' brains distinctly tracked three components of the phrases they heard, reflecting a hierarchy in our neural processing of linguistic structures: words, phrases, and then sentences—at the same time."-Comment: The research used two languages which shows the mechanism fits any and all. The brain is built to help us and cooperate with us in all uses.
Brain complexity: Complex human astrocytes
by David Turell , Friday, December 11, 2015, 00:10 (3271 days ago) @ David Turell
Astrocytes control synapses and human astrocytes are more complex in form and activity than in mice.-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151210124540.htm-"In Neuron on December 10, Stanford researchers present the first functional and molecular comparison of human and mouse astrocytes, and while 85%-90% of the genes are similar, human astrocytes have unique genes and respond differently to neurotransmitters, particularly glutamate. This presumably means that, at the adult stage, human astrocytes, in contrast to mouse astrocytes, are better at detecting neuroactivity and adjusting their functions in response.-"'We are only beginning to understand the unique properties of human astrocytes," says first author Ye Zhang, a postdoctoral scholar in Stanford University School of Medicine's Department of Neurobiology. "We found hundreds of genes expressed exclusively by human astrocytes, and future studies will likely reveal additional biological differences. Potentially, this work will help us recognize the role of these cells in biological disorders.'"-Comment: Not surprising considering the intellect and consciousness we have.
Brain complexity: three new neuron types
by David Turell , Thursday, December 17, 2015, 01:21 (3265 days ago) @ David Turell
The brain is more complex than e thought. New cells with new functionality turn up. Now three new neurons:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-12-scientists-function-cell-brain.html-"Using cutting-edge visualization and genetic techniques, the team uncovered a new subtype of nerve cell, or neuron, in the visual cortex. The group also detailed how the new cell and two similar neurons process images and connect to other parts of the brain. Learning how the brain analyzes visual information at such a detailed level may one day help doctors understand elements of disorders like schizophrenia and autism.-***-"The three neuron types the team studied are part of a larger classification of neurons called excitatory pyramidal (named for their shape) neurons, and play an important role across the cortex of the brain. Although all the experiments were done in the visual cortex of mice, the same neuron cell types likely exist and play similar roles in the brains of many animals, including humans.-***-"The Salk scientists used special imaging techniques to show how, and when, the three cell types were activated in response to different images shown to a living mouse. To trace the new cell's neural circuit, the team used a modified rabies virus method invented by Callaway's lab to map the connections between the three neuron types and cells in the rest of the brain.-"The combination of the two imaging tests painted a picture of the different neurons' functions.-"Two neuronal types that were sensitive to fine-detailed spatial information in the visual tests were also mapped to parts of the brain responsible for parsing various bits of information. Similarly, the neurons that responded to direction and speed in the visual tests were shown to connect differently to the parts of the brain in the rabies mapping experiment.-"'It's not an accident that a particular cell type responds to fast-moving stimuli because those neurons connect to a part of the brain that is responsible for controlling eye movement," says Callaway, who also holds the Institute's Audrey Geisel Chair. "The outputs are matched to the function of the circuit."-"Callaway expects future experiments will likely determine even more functions of these neurons."-Comment: The complexity is not yet fully uncovered. Consciousness requires this I am sure.
Brain complexity: simulation study
by David Turell , Thursday, December 17, 2015, 15:22 (3264 days ago) @ David Turell
The Blue Brain ten-year-old study hasn't gotten very far:-https://aeon.co/opinions/why-trying-to-simulate-the-human-brain-is-a-waste-of-energy?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=ce5c4c6f13-Daily_newsletter_Thursday_17th_December_12_17_2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-ce5c4c6f13-68942561-"The philosopher John Searle has been dining out for years on a good line about simulation. People think, he says, that if they simulate the mind on a computer it'll be conscious; but you know what? When they run a computer simulation of a rain storm, nobody gets wet.-"That hasn't stopped people trying to simulate the brain. The most ambitious simulation attempt of all must be the Blue Brain Project in Switzerland, whose recent effort got a generally warm reception. ‘Complex Living Brain Simulation Replicates Sensory Rat Behaviour' said The Guardian in October (so much more interesting than those simple dead?brain simulations). Fair enough; a computational simulation of even a tiny piece of rat cortex seems a notable success - but are we any nearer to getting wet?-*** "We're talking about an organ that is, by general agreement, the most complex object in the cosmos. The sponsors of simulation projects might have thought they were merely buying something of modest scope, like a second Human Genome Project (after all, that's what people like Markram told them); in fact, the challenge they were taking on was both incomparably larger and far less well-defined. -***-"Ultimately, we need to reproduce the things that make the brain work; but to spot those, we need to understand how it works or at least have a theory the simulation can test. Alas, we don't. Simulations might have been slow about delivering, but they actually represent impatience: the view that instead of waiting until we understand the brain, we should get on and build something now. -***-"Equally, a brain simulation cannot just secrete a generic kind of neural activity as if it were a sort of electric gland. Rat cortex has to control rat muscle; if the virtual rat collapses with uncontrollable trembling or paralysis, it's no good saying the simulation is a success because the simulated patterns of neuron activation have a statistical resemblance to normal ones. This requirement - that the simulation should actually work - seems insufficiently recognised by the simulators; perhaps that's why they're such optimists.-"It has now been announced, following the new paper, that Blue Brain has been awarded at least a further three years of funding. Perhaps it would have been just too embarrassing to pull the plug after 10 years. At any rate, that particular project is not about to fold. It could well plod on to serve up more unappetising crumbs of digital cortex for years or decades to come. These simulations look like a waste of money, but the real danger is that they quietly embed unspoken assumptions about the brain and draw talent and resources away from the original thinking and research that we really need. Instead of trying to simulate the human brain we should be using it. "-Comment: Too much fund money wasted. Romansh should note, fMRIs don't tell you much.
Brain complexity: rapid pattern recognition
by David Turell , Saturday, December 19, 2015, 01:13 (3263 days ago) @ David Turell
We can see a tiny portion of an object ( i.e., a bed post) and recognize what the picture refers to. Our brain stores all sorts of patterns to help us. It no appears that this mechanism can act very quickly:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151215160649.htm-"Humans learn to very quickly identify complex objects and variations of them. We generally recognize an "A" no matter what the font, texture or background, for example, or the face of a coworker even if she puts on a hat or changes her hairstyle. We also can identify an object when just a portion is visible, such as the corner of a bed or the hinge of a door. But how?-***-"We hypothesized that random projection could be one way humans learn," Arriaga, a senior research scientist and developmental psychologist, explains. "The short story is, the prediction was right. Just 0.15 percent of the total data is enough for humans."-***-"To test their theory, researchers created three families of abstract images at 150 x 150 pixels, then very small ``random sketches" of those images. Test subjects were shown the whole image for 10 seconds, then randomly shown 16 sketches of each. Using abstract images ensured that neither humans nor machines had any prior knowledge of what the objects were.-"'We were surprised by how close the performance was between extremely simple neural networks and humans," Vempala said. "The design of neural networks was inspired by how we think humans learn, but it's a weak inspiration. To find that it matches human performance is quite a surprise.'"-Comment: The research folks are not looking at the brain strictly from my viewpoint, but their study demonstrates my contention. Our brain is built to help us.
Brain complexity: reaction to danger
by David Turell , Saturday, December 19, 2015, 15:04 (3262 days ago) @ David Turell
Another example of our brain trying to be helpful. But in sudden danger there is an instantaneous freeze response before action takes over. The amygdala is the control point as shown in rats. Can we teach folks to react more quickly, now that we see the general mechanism:-http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/opinion/sunday/run-hide-fight-is-not-how-our-brains-work.html?emc=edit_th_20151219&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=60788861&_r=0-"One suggestion, promoted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Department of Homeland Security, and now widely disseminated, is “run, hide, fight.” The idea is: Run if you can; hide if you can't run; and fight if all else fails. This three-step program appeals to common sense, but whether it makes scientific sense is another question.-"Underlying the idea of “run, hide, fight” is the presumption that volitional choices are readily available in situations of danger. But the fact is, when you are in danger, whether it is a bicyclist speeding at you or a shooter locked and loaded, you may well find yourself frozen, unable to act and think clearly. "Freezing is not a choice. It is a built-in impulse controlled by ancient circuits in the brain involving the amygdala and its neural partners, and is automatically set into motion by external threats. By contrast, the kinds of intentional actions implied by “run, hide, fight” require newer circuits in the neocortex.-***-"Why do we freeze? It's part of a predatory defense system that is wired to keep the organism alive. Not only do we do it, but so do other mammals and other vertebrates. Even invertebrates — like flies — freeze. If you are freezing, you are less likely to be detected if the predator is far away, and if the predator is close by, you can postpone the attack (movement by the prey is a trigger for attack).-"The freezing reaction is accompanied by a hormonal surge that helps mobilize your energy and focus your attention. While the hormonal and other physiological responses that accompany freezing are there for good reason, in highly stressful situations the secretions can be excessive and create impediments to making informed choices.-"A vivid example of freezing was captured in a video of the Centennial Olympic Park bombing during the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta. After the bomb went off, many people froze. Then, some began to try to escape (run), while others were slower on the uptake.-***-"Studies by the psychologists James Gross at Stanford, Kevin Ochsner at Columbia and Elizabeth Phelps and me at New York University have shown that if people cognitively reappraise a situation, it can dampen their amygdala activity. This dampening may open the way for conceptually based actions, like “run, hide, fight,” to replace freezing and other hard-wired impulses.-***-"How to encourage this kind of cognitive reappraisal? Perhaps we could harness the power of social media to conduct a kind of collective cultural training in which we learn to reappraise the freezing that occurs in dangerous situations. In most of us, freezing will occur no matter what. It's just a matter of how long it will last."-Comment: this is a reaction from the evolution of all animals, I'll bet. Note to Romansh; this is direct rat brain study, not fMRI.
Brain complexity: visual help
by David Turell , Wednesday, December 23, 2015, 16:20 (3258 days ago) @ David Turell
A new study of the Thalamus shows it appears to send contextual information to he optic cortex:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-12-thalamus-contextual-visual.html-"The thalamus not only relays visual signals from the eye to the visual cortex as previously thought, but also conveys additional, contextual information. Integrating these different signals is essential to understand and interpret what we see in the world around us. Prof. Sonja Hofer and her research team at the Biozentrum, University Basel, investigate how the brain processes visual stimuli and how contextual information shapes our visual perception.-***-"The visual cortex, which comprises the largest part of the human brain, is responsible for analyzing visual information and allows us to see.-***-"What we see is not only based on the signals that our eyes send to our brain, but is influenced strongly by the context the visual stimulus is presented in, on our previous knowledge, and expectations. Optical illusions, as the one shown here, illustrate how important such non-visual, contextual information is for our perception. The visual cortex receives this additional information from other brain areas and uses it to allow us to understand and interpret the visual world. Prof. Hofer and her team measured the specific signals transmitted to visual cortex from the Thalamus, and found that the Pulvinar not only conveyed visual signals but is also one of the brain areas that provide additional information about the context of visual stimuli.-***-"Although the Pulvinar is the largest part of the thalamus in humans, its function is still largely unknown. The researchers' findings begin to shed some light on the role of this mysterious structure. Another piece of the puzzle are the signals sent back to the Pulvinar from visual cortex, which seem to make information flow back and forth between the two parts of the brain in a loop. Why this is the case is still completely unclear. Prof. Hofer's team is now planning to study these visual loops, and to find out how signals from the Pulvinar influence our visual perceptions and actions."-Comment: The visual cortex is a very large part of the brain. This article shows the integration of parts of the brain to allow us the best interpretation of the stimuli we receive.
Brain complexity: protecting mitochondria
by David Turell , Friday, January 15, 2016, 20:18 (3235 days ago) @ David Turell
Cells contain many mitochondria which provide constant energy. the cells have a mechanism to protect mitochondria from damage through an enzyme:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160114152323.htm-"Researchers have known for years that mitochondria undergo this fragmentation when treated with drugs that affect the mitochondria, but the biochemical details of how the mitochondria damage is sensed and how that triggers the rapid fission response has not been clear until now.-"In the new work, the Salk team found that when cells are exposed to mitochondria damage, a central cellular fuel gauge, the enzyme AMPK, sends an emergency alert to mitochondria instructing them to break apart into many tiny mitochondrial fragments.-***-"Prior research by Shaw's group and others had uncovered AMPK's role in helping to recycle damaged mitochondrial pieces as well as signaling to the cell to make new mitochondria. But this new role of rapidly triggering mitochondrial fragmentation "really places AMPK at the heart of mitochondria health and long-term well-being," says Shaw.-***-"The team discovered why this was: when the cell's power stations are disrupted, the amount of energy floating around a cell -- ATP -- is lowered. After just a few minutes, AMPK detects this reduction of energy in the cell and hurries to the mitochondria. Like a guard pulling a fire alarm, AMPK activates a receptor on the outside membrane of a mitochondrion to signal it to fragment.-"Drilling down further, the researchers found that AMPK actually acts on two areas of a mitochondrial receptor, called mitochondrial fission factor (MFF), to start the process. MFF calls over a protein, Drp1, that binds and wraps around the mitochondrion like a beaded noose to twist and break it apart.-"'We discovered that the modification of MFF by AMPK is needed for MFF to call over more Drp1 to the mitochondria," says Erin Quan Toyama, one of the first authors of the paper and a Salk research associate. "Without AMPK sending the alarm, MFF cannot call over to Drp1 and there is no new fragmentation of mitochondria after damage.'"-Comment: Once again an enzyme, which is a large complex molecule, runs the protective reaction. Mitochondria are thought to be bacteria that were engulfed early in evolution ( Lynn Margulies). How did the protective mechanism get added? It is obviously necessary and it is a complex molecule. Further note that the whole protective process is a series of organized molecular reactions following a plan.
Brain complexity: neuron traffic hubs
by David Turell , Thursday, January 21, 2016, 15:25 (3229 days ago) @ David Turell
Information appears to be channeled through hubs of neurons:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160120142957.htm-"70 percent of all information within cortical regions in the brain passes through only 20 percent of its regions' neurons, report researchers. The scientists report these high-traffic "hub neurons" could play a role in understanding brain health since this sort of highly efficient network -- in which a small number of neurons are more essential to brain function -- is also more vulnerable to disruption. That's because relatively small breakages can cause the whole system to "go down." -***-"The discovery of this small but information-rich subset of neurons within cortical regions suggests this sub-network might play a vital role in communication, learning and memory," said Sunny Nigam, a Ph.D. candidate in the IU Bloomington College of Arts and Sciences' Department of Physics, who is the lead author on the study.-"The scientists also report these high-traffic "hub neurons" could play a role in understanding brain health since this sort of highly efficient network -- in which a small number of neurons are more essential to brain function -- is also more vulnerable to disruption. That's because relatively small breakages can cause the whole system to "go down."-"'The brain seems to favor efficiency over vulnerability," said John M. Beggs, associate professor of biophysics in the IU Bloomington Department of Physics, who is senior author on the paper. "In addition to helping us understand how the cortex processes information, this work could shed light on how the brain responds to neurodegenerative diseases that affect the 'network.'"-***-"The experiments, conducted in live and tissue samples, were based in rodents. But similar high-traffic zones in the cortex have been shown to exist in more advanced mammals, including primates and adult humans. The IU study is the first to explore the behavior of this region in mammals at the level of individual neurons, however, with the only previous similar experiment conducted in worms."-Comment: Considering how complex the brain is, this simplification of traffic flow looks like reasonable planning to me.
Brain complexity: memory capacity
by David Turell , Monday, January 25, 2016, 15:22 (3225 days ago) @ David Turell
This article describes dynamic changes in size and function of synapses as well as multiple double connections:-http://www.salk.edu/news-release/memory-capacity-of-brain-is-10-times-more-than-previously-thought/-"Memory capacity of brain is 10 times more than previously thought. Data from the Salk Institute shows brain's memory capacity is in the petabyte range, as much as entire Web.-***-"We were amazed to find that the difference in the sizes of the pairs of synapses were very small, on average, only about eight percent different in size. No one thought it would be such a small difference. This was a curveball from nature,” says Bartol.-"Because the memory capacity of neurons is dependent upon synapse size, this eight percent difference turned out to be a key number the team could then plug into their algorithmic models of the brain to measure how much information could potentially be stored in synaptic connections.-***-"It was known before that the range in sizes between the smallest and largest synapses was a factor of 60 and that most are small.-"But armed with the knowledge that synapses of all sizes could vary in increments as little as eight percent between sizes within a factor of 60, the team determined there could be about 26 categories of sizes of synapses, rather than just a few.-“'Our data suggests there are 10 times more discrete sizes of synapses than previously thought,” says Bartol. In computer terms, 26 sizes of synapses correspond to about 4.7 “bits” of information. Previously, it was thought that the brain was capable of just one to two bits for short and long memory storage in the hippocampus.-“'This is roughly an order of magnitude of precision more than anyone has ever imagined,” says Sejnowski.-***-"One answer, it seems, is in the constant adjustment of synapses, averaging out their success and failure rates over time. The team used their new data and a statistical model to find out how many signals it would take a pair of synapses to get to that eight percent difference.-"The researchers calculated that for the smallest synapses, about 1,500 events cause a change in their size/ability (20 minutes) and for the largest synapses, only a couple hundred signaling events (1 to 2 minutes) cause a change.-“'This means that every 2 or 20 minutes, your synapses are going up or down to the next size. The synapses are adjusting themselves according to the signals they receive,” says Bartol.-***-“'The implications of what we found are far-reaching,” adds Sejnowski. “Hidden under the apparent chaos and messiness of the brain is an underlying precision to the size and shapes of synapses that was hidden from us.”-"The findings also offer a valuable explanation for the brain's surprising efficiency. The waking adult brain generates only about 20 watts of continuous power—as much as a very dim light bulb. The Salk discovery could help computer scientists build ultraprecise, but energy-efficient, computers, particularly ones that employ “deep learning” and artificial neural nets—techniques capable of sophisticated learning and analysis, such as speech, object recognition and translation."-Comment: I've mentioned the controlled variability of synapses before, but this article gives great detail. No wonder our brain is so powerful making us different in kind.
Brain complexity: new techniques to explore it
by David Turell , Tuesday, February 02, 2016, 17:29 (3217 days ago) @ David Turell
Trying to understand the brain functions neuron by neuron is very difficult because so many neurons are tied up in a network with each activity:-http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/deciphering-the-language/-"There are close to 100 billion neurons in the human brain. Researchers know a lot about how these individual cells behave, primarily through “electrophysiology,” which involves sticking fine electrodes into cells to record their electrical activity. We also know a fair amount about the gross organization of the brain into partially specialized anatomical regions, thanks to whole-brain imaging technologies like functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), which measure how blood oxygen levels change as regions that work harder demand more oxygen to fuel metabolism. We know little, however, about how the brain is organized into distributed “circuits” that underlie faculties like, memory or perception. And we know even less about how, or even if, cells are arranged into “local processors” that might act as components in such networks.-"We also lack knowledge regarding the “code” large numbers of cells use to communicate and interact. This is crucial, because mental phenomena likely emerge from the simultaneous activity of many thousands, or millions, of interacting neurons. In other words, neuroscientists have yet to decipher the “language” of the brain. “The first phase is learning what the brain's natural language is. If your resolution [in a hypothetical language detector] is too coarse, so you're averaging over paragraphs, or chapters, you can't hear individual words or discern letters,” says physicist Michael Roukes of the California Institute of Technology, one of the authors of the “Brain Activity Map” (BAM) paper published in 2012 in Neuron that inspired the BRAIN Initiative. “Once we have that, we could talk to the brain in complete sentences.”-***-"Today's state-of-the-art technology in the field is optical imaging, mainly using calcium indicators—fluorescent proteins introduced into cells via genetic tweaks, which emit light in response to the calcium level changes caused by neurons firing. These signals are recorded using special microscopes that produce light, as the indicators need to absorb photons in order to then emit these light particles. This can be combined with optogenetics, a technique that genetically modifies cells so they can be activated using light, allowing researchers to both observe and control neural activity.-***-"An alternative approach is being taken by a multidisciplinary collaboration of research groups, led by Roukes. Funded by a recent BRAIN grant, his team plans to combine optical methods with nanotechnology to produce nanoscale implants that are inserted into the brain but which interact with cells optically, at depths light can't otherwise reach. “With optical techniques where you're doing standoff sensing, as you go deeper, you lose resolution; the other paradigm is to implant things in the brain,” Roukes says. “Extremely narrow wires can be implanted slowly and tolerated, as long as you don't displace too much tissue.”-***-"One of the project's early aims is to record from every neuron in a one-millimeter3 volume of tissue. “We can't understand the entire brain in one fell swoop, we've got to find some pared-down problems,” Roukes says. “The question is: Can we identify some sort of regional processor in the brain that we could understand deeply in the next 10 years?” There are small structures in the cortex called “cortical columns” where internal connections are dense and outward connections are sparse, making them likely candidates for being local processors. In mice these are one millimeter wide, with a one-millimeter3 volume containing around 100,000 cells—in other words, an ideal early target for study.-***-"There are also indicators that report different types of activity—like other chemicals, neurotransmitters and even the actual physical force of moving parts of cells. “The brain is a complex chemical system and [the] techniques for optical interactions over large volumes would be applicable to many different indicators,” says Cohen, who mainly works on developing such tools."-Comment: Way beyond the fMRI gross looks that fascinated Romansh
Brain complexity: vision system
by David Turell , Wednesday, February 03, 2016, 19:22 (3216 days ago) @ David Turell
The vision we have does not begin at birth. it has to develop as the baby begins to try to see:-http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/illusion-chasers/what-little-babies-see-that-you-no-longer-can/?WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20160203-Please look at the pictures:-"Take a look at the red chips on the two Rubik cubes below. They are actually orange on the left and purple on the right, if you look at them in isolation. They only appear more or less equally red across the images because your brain is interpreting them as red chips lit by either yellow or blue light. This kind of misperception is an example of perceptual constancy, the mechanism that allows you to recognize an object as being the same in different environments, and under very diverse lighting conditions.-***-"There are many indications that constancy effects must have helped us survive (and continue to do so). One such clue is that we are not born with perceptual constancy, but develop it many months after birth. So at first we see all differences, and then we learn to ignore certain types of differences so that we can recognize the same object as unchanging in many varied scenarios. When perceptual constancy arises, we lose the ability to detect multiple contradictions that are nevertheless highly noticeable to young babies.-***-"The data revealed that, before developing perceptual constancy, 3- to 4-month-old babies have a “striking ability” to discriminate image differences due to changes in illumination that are not salient for adults. They lose this superior skill around the age of 5 months. Then, at 7-8 months of age, they develop the ability to discriminate surface properties such as glossy vs matte (which they maintain until adulthood), so they end up perceiving glossy surfaces as very different from matte ones (just as we adults do), even if most of their physical properties remain otherwise unchanged.-"The discrimination of surfaces is not the only perceptual domain where we abandon reality for illusion as we grow up. During the first year of life, infants suffer the loss of a myriad discriminatory powers: among them, the ability to recognize differences in monkey faces that are hardly detectable to adult humans, and the ability to distinguish speech sounds in languages other than spoken by their own families. Objective differences become subjective similitudes.-"The loss of sensitivity to variant information that we all experienced as babies created an unbreachable gap between us and the physical world. At the same time, it served to tune our perception to our environment, allowing us to navigate it efficiently and successfully... even if it left a large portion of reality forever outside our reach."-Comment: Romansh is correct. What we see are illusions, but what do you expect? What arrives at the optic cortex are charged ions running along nerve fibers, which are then interpreted as vision. Note the article agrees with me. The brain does this to help us survive. We are not cameras!
Brain complexity: forming cortex folds
by David Turell , Thursday, February 04, 2016, 20:18 (3215 days ago) @ David Turell
A new study using substitute materials shows how the cerebral folds form in utero:-http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/human-brain-s-bizarre-folding-pattern-re-created-in-a-vat/?WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20160204-"Scientists have discovered exactly how the human brain gets its crinkly, wrinkly appearance in utero.-It turns out that the huge explosion in the number of brain cells in the brain's outer layer, called the cortex, forces that layer to swell and then collapse in on itself to form those characteristic creases. This cortical origami—which has also evolved in a handful of other brainy species, such as dolphins and some primates—may be nature's way of solving the tight packing problem.-***-"The outer surface of the human brain is a mass of curving bulges and fissures, known as gyri and sulci, all made of gray matter. Beneath this gray matter sits the white matter, the bundle of nerve fibers that send and receive signals between the brain and the rest of the body. Scientists have long suspected that this wrinkly brain surface evolved in order to squish many more brain cells, or neurons, into the relatively small space of the brain.-***-"In the new study, the researchers decided to test their theory in a gel replica that more accurately reflected human brain anatomy. In the womb, the brain of a fetus starts out smooth, but between 14 weeks and 26 weeks of gestation, the fetal brain folds and curves in a predictable sequence from one brain region to the next, a 1997 study in the journal Ultrasound in Obstetrics and Gynecology found.-"To recreate this process, the team collected magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) images of fetal brains and used those images to make an anatomically accurate gel reconstruction of the developing human brain.-"The team coated the outside layer of the mock brain with a stretchy elastomer gel to mimic the cortical layer. They placed this fetal-brain replica in a vat of solvent.-"The brain quickly soaked up the solvent, and its outer layer ballooned outward more quickly than its inner layer. This uneven swelling caused compression and buckling, and within minutes, the team had recreated the gyri and sulci of the brain. What's more, the formation pattern was shockingly similar to that found in real brains, the researchers reported today (Feb. 1) in the journal Nature Physics.-***-"Interestingly, the team also showed that the size, shape and orientation of the largest folds were highly reliable, with the replica brain creasing in the same way no matter how many times it was put into the solvent. The smaller wrinkles appear to be unique, folding differently in each experiment. That mimics the pattern in human brains, in which the largest folding patterns are consistent across healthy people, but each individual has a unique pattern of little wrinkles."-Comment: Amazing finding.
Brain complexity: estimate of capacity increased
by David Turell , Monday, February 08, 2016, 19:32 (3211 days ago) @ David Turell
Our brain capacity is enormous according to new estimates:-http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-estimate-boosts-the-human-brain-s-memory-capacity-10-fold/?WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20160208-"The human brain's memory-storage capacity is an order of magnitude greater than previously thought, researchers at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies reported last week. The findings, recently detailed in eLife, are significant not only for what they say about storage space but more importantly because they nudge us toward a better understanding of how, exactly, information is encoded in our brains.-***-"The question of just how much information our brains can hold is a longstanding one. We know that the human brain is made up of about 100 billion neurons, and that each one makes 1,000 or more connections to other neurons, adding up to some 100 trillion in total. We also know that the strengths of these connections, or synapses, are regulated by experience. When two neurons on either side of a synapse are active simultaneously, that synapse becomes more robust; the dendritic spine (the antenna on the receiving neuron) also becomes larger to support the increased signal strength. These changes in strength and size are believed to be the molecular correlates of memory. The different antenna sizes are often compared with bits of computer code, only instead of 1s and 0s they can assume a range of values. So they decided to measure the synapse pairs. And sure enough, they found an 8 percent size difference between dendritic spines connected to the same axon of a signaling neuron. That difference might seem small, but when they plugged the value into their algorithms, they calculated a total of 26 unique synapse sizes. A greater number of synapse sizes means more capacity for storing information, which in this case translated into a 10-fold greater storage capacity in the hippocampus as a whole than the previous three-size model had indicated. “It's an order of magnitude more capacity than we knew was there,” says Tom Bartol, a staff scientist at the Salk Institute and the study's lead author.-*** "Reber says that it is almost impossible to quantify the amount of information in the human brain, in part because it consists of so much more information than we're consciously aware of: not only facts and faces and measurable skills but basic functions like how to speak and move and higher order ones like how to feel and express emotions. “We take in much more information from the world than ‘what do I remember from yesterday?'” Reber says. “And we still don't really know how to scale up from computing synaptic strength to mapping out these complex processes.”-***-"But first scientists will have to see if the patterns found in the hippocampus hold for other brain regions. Bartol's team is already working to answer this question. They hope to map the chemicals, which pass from neuron to neuron, that have an even greater capacity than the variable synapses to store and transmit information. As far as a precise measurement of whole-brain capacity, “we are still a long way off,” Bartol says. “The brain still holds many, many more mysteries for us to discover.'”- Comment: I'll stick to different in kind. How much evidence is needed?
Brain complexity: evolves in spurts?
by David Turell , Tuesday, February 09, 2016, 20:44 (3210 days ago) @ David Turell
New monkey skull research suggests the brain develops in size and function in spurts. Punctuated equilibrium, not Darwin tiny steps, once again:-http://phys.org/news/2016-02-monkey-skull-brain-evolved-spurts.html-"For many years, researchers believed that superior intelligence in humans was attributable to our brain size—that the large size of our brain relative to the size of the rest of our body was what set us apart. But subsequent studies found that other animals had ratios that were even more pronounced than ours, suggest thing it must be something else. In this new study, the researchers propose that it was changes to the size of certain parts of the brain that led to increases in cognitive abilities, and that it happened in spurts.-"The team came to these conclusions by studying the skulls of 179 adult platyrrhines (which included 49 species and samples of both genders)—a type of new world monkey. The researchers added data from the skulls into modeling software that was also able to take into account evolutionary changes. In studying the models, the researchers found that the brains of the monkeys underwent two distinct periods of evolutionary change. The first came about as the monkeys began moving around on the ground more, allowing them to obtain new types of food. That led, the researchers assert, to an enlarged neocortex, which forced the brain to shift on its axis, pushing the brain stem farther down. The next spurt came about, they believe when the monkeys became more social—that led to a less expanded prefrontal area. The models showed that the brain changed to meet changing circumstances, the team suggests, eventually leading to the shape the monkeys have now.-"Because humans are also primates, the researchers suggest that it seems reasonable to conclude that our brains grew in spurts as well during similar situations of our history, and because of that suggest that it was not just growth in overall brain size that led to our superior intellect, but the growth of certain parts that were used heavily as we evolved." -Comment: Doesn't fit Darwin, and supports Denton's view that structuralism rather than functionalism drives evolution. See the Denton book forward review which is accurate, as I am reading the book. (Thursday, February 04, 2016, 15:42)
Brain complexity: 50 types of neurons
by David Turell , Friday, March 04, 2016, 01:17 (3187 days ago) @ David Turell
Recent research found many types of neurons based on genetic transcription factors:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-03-neurons-brain.html-"In today's newly published research, scientists focused on a group of neurons in the spinal cord called V1 interneurons, which form connections that orchestrate the activity and output of motor neurons, the class of neurons that give us the power to move.-***-"We needed to classify the varieties of V1 interneurons in a much more systematic and detailed manner—information that would then help to decipher the circuits that underlie movement at an unprecedented organizational level."-"There are many characteristics that distinguish one type of neuron from another, such as where it is located or what it looks like. But ultimately, the researchers argue, a neuron can be defined by its genetic identity.-***-"In this research, the scientists focused on finding that fingerprint. By studying the V1 interneurons of laboratory mice, researchers first identified 19 genetic 'switches,' called transcription factors, which—when activated in a particular combination—made the genetic profile of one V1 interneuron class different from another. What the scientists needed to do next was match the unique pattern of transcription factors to a particular type of interneuron, a feat that proved difficult with traditional experimental techniques.-"Faced with this challenge, the researchers turned to theoretical neuroscientist Larry Abbott, PhD, and statistician Liam Paninski, PhD—colleagues at Columbia's Zuckerman Institute—as well as Ari Pakman, PhD, a postdoctoral fellow in Dr. Paninski's lab and co-first author in the second paper, to build a more powerful statistical model. Drs. Abbott and Paninski developed a mathematical approach based on Bayesian regression analysis that provides the ability to account for uncertainty in a principled way, while also incorporating the complex genetics of the 19 transcription factors. Using this statistical model the research team was able to distinguish 50 distinct types of V1 interneurons—results that withstood even the toughest statistical and experimental scrutiny.-Comment: this finding in one type of neuron that there are 50 varieties increases the complexity of the brain by more than 50 times, since the connections between them can take multiple forms.
Brain complexity: NO and CO influence brain function
by David Turell , Sunday, March 06, 2016, 13:49 (3184 days ago) @ David Turell
Nitric oxide and Carbon monoxide have physiologic functions in the brain:-https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160304123108.htm-"Inside our brains nerve cells signal each other using neurotransmitters including carbon monoxide (CO) and nitric oxide (NO) gases. Besides sharing a number of biological and chemical characteristics, CO and NO work together in regulating many physiological processes including vasodilatation, and immune reaction. Accurate and quantitative measurements of their physiological levels have been seen to result in meaningful findings and the focus of many previous studies. -***-"With miniaturized size and tapered needle-like shape, the dual sensor allowed the IBS team to record CO/NO within tissue during an acute seizure. Immediately after probe insertion, the IBS team was able to monitor almost dynamic changes in CO/NO levels.-"Seizures have three distinct phases: initiation, propagation and termination. The dual sensor probe was able to record clearly defined changes in CO/NO levels which changed in accordance to the seizure's phase changes."-Comment: More complex research techniques uncover more complexity. How much complexity is needed to be exposed before it becomes logical that intense planning is required for each evolutionary advance?
Brain complexity: stimulating synapses
by David Turell , Sunday, March 20, 2016, 14:52 (3170 days ago) @ David Turell
The mechanism is now being worked out:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-03-gene-discovery-reveals-mechanism.html- "Our brains are marvels of connectivity, packed with cells that continually communicate with one another. This communication occurs across synapses, the transit points where chemicals called neurotransmitters leap from one neuron to another, allowing us to think, to learn and to remember. -"Researchers have known that these synapses often need a boost to send information across neuronal divides. -"Now Harvard Medical School researchers have discovered a gene that provides that boost by increasing neurotransmitter release in a phenomenon known as synaptic facilitation.-"The gene is synaptotagmin 7 (syt7 for short), a calcium sensor that dynamically increases neurotransmitter release; each release serves to strengthen communication between neurons for about a second. These swift releases are thought to be critical for the brain's ability to perform computations involved in short-term memory, spatial navigation and sensory perception.-***-"'We really think one of the most important things the brain can do is change the strength of connections between neurons," Jackman said. "Now that we have a tool to selectively turn off facilitation, we can test some long-held beliefs about its importance for thinking and working memory.'"-Comment: No computer can change its electrical power in different areas of its transistors and chips. No computer will match the brain.
Brain complexity: stitching sight
by David Turell , Monday, March 21, 2016, 17:52 (3169 days ago) @ David Turell
We do not see exactly what we think we see:-https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160321123817.htm-"Perception experts have long known that we see much less of the world than we think we do. A person creates a mental model of their surroundings by stitching together scraps of visual information gleaned while shifting attention from place to place. Counterintuitively, the very process that creates the illusion of a complete picture relies on filtering out most of what's out there.-"In a paper published in the journal Attention, Perception, & Psychophysics a team of U of T researchers reveal how people have more "top-down" control of what they don't notice than many scientists previously believed.-"'The visual system really cares about objects," says postdoctoral fellow J. Eric T. Taylor, who is the lead author on the paper. "If I move around a room, the locations of all the objects -- chairs, tables, doors, walls, etc. -- change on my retina, but my mental representation of the room stays the same."-"Objects play such a fundamental role in how we focus our attention that many perception researchers believe we are "addicted" to them; we couldn't stop paying attention to objects if we tried. The visual brain guides attention largely by selecting objects -- and this process is widely believed to be automatic.-***-"The widely accepted conclusion was that the human brain is wired to use objects like these rectangles to focus attention. Alternately referred to as a "bottom-up" control or a "part of our lizard brain," object-based attention cues seemed to evoke an involuntary, uncontrolled response in the human brain.-"Taylor and colleague's variations added a new element: test observers went through similar exercises, but they were instructed to hunt targets of a specific colour that either matched or contrasted with the colour of the rectangles themselves.-"They activate a 'control setting' for, say, green, which is a very top-down mental activity," says Taylor. "We found that when the objects matched the target color, people use them to help direct their attention. But when the objects were not the target colour, people no longer use them -- they become invisible."-"Test observers are aware of the rectangles on the screen, but when they're seeking a green target among red shapes, those objects no longer affect the speed with which they find it. In everyday life, we continually create such top-down filters, by doing anything from heeding a "Watch for children" sign to scanning a crowd for a familiar face.-"'This result tells us that one of the ways we move attention around is actually highly directed rather than automatic," Taylor says. "We can't say exactly what we're missing, but whatever is and is not getting through the filter is not as automatic as we thought.'"-Comment: Another win for free will. The brain does not try to fool us. It works cooperatively with us.
Brain complexity: essay on the complexity
by David Turell , Tuesday, March 22, 2016, 18:40 (3168 days ago) @ David Turell
A reviews of how complex are the neurons themselves and their enormous connectivity:-http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/the-singularity-and-the-neural-code/?WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20160322-"Specialists in real rather than artificial brains find these scenarios laughably naïve, because we are still so far from understanding how brains make minds. “No one has the foggiest notion,” says Nobel laureate Eric Kandel. “At the moment all you can get are informed, intelligent opinions.” Neuroscientists lack an overarching, unifying theory to make sense of their sprawling and disjointed findings, such as Kandel's discovery of the chemical and genetic processes that underpin memory formation--in sea slugs.-"The brain is with good reason often called the most complex phenomenon known to science. A typical adult brain contains about 100 billion nerve cells, or neurons. A single neuron can be linked via axons (output wires) and dendrites (input wires) across synapses (gaps between axons and dendrites) to as many as 100 000 other neurons. Crank the numbers and you find that a typical human brain has quadrillions of connections among its neurons.-"Adding to the complexity, synaptic connections constantly form, strengthen, weaken, dissolve. Old neurons die and—a growing body of evidence indicates, overturning decades of dogma--new ones are born throughout our lives. Cells can also be retrained for different jobs, switching from facial expressions to finger flexing, or from seeing red to hearing squeaks.-"Far from being stamped from a common mold, neurons display an astounding variety of forms and functions. Researchers have discovered scores of distinct types just in the optical system. Neurotransmitters, which carry signals across the synapse between two neurons, also come in many different varieties. Other chemicals, such as neural-growth factors and hormones, also ebb and flow through the brain, modulating cognition in manners subtle and profound.-***-"The neural code is science's deepest, most consequential problem. If researchers crack the code, they might solve such ancient philosophical conundrums as the mind-body problem and the riddle of free will. A solution to the neural code could also, in principle, give us unlimited power over our brains and hence minds. Science fiction—including mind-control, mind-reading, bionic enhancement and even psychic uploading—could become reality.-"But the most profound problem in science is also by far the hardest. Neuroscientists still have no idea what the neural code is. That is not to say they don't have any candidates. Far from it. Like voters in a U.S. presidential primary, researchers have a surfeit of candidates, each seriously flawed.-***-"Koch doubts, however, that the neural code “will be anything as simple and as universal as the genetic code.” Neural codes seem to vary in different species, he notes, and even in different sensory modes within the same species. “The code for hearing is not the same as that for smelling,” he explains, ”in part because the phonemes that make up words change within a tiny fraction of a second, while smells wax and wane much more slowly.”-“'There may be no universal principle” governing neural-information processing, Koch says, “above and beyond the insight that brains are amazingly adaptive and can extract every bit of information possible, inventing new codes as necessary.” So little is known about how the brain processes information that “it's difficult to rule out any coding scheme at this time.”-***-"Together with eminent neurosurgeon Itzhak Fried, Koch has identified neurons that respond to images of specific people, from Bill Clinton to Sylvester Stallone. The neurons were discovered in epileptics in whom Fried had implanted electrodes for clinical purposes.-"The findings suggest that a single neuron—far from being a simple switch—may possess enormous computational power. Meaningful messages might be conveyed not just by hordes of neurons screaming in unison but by small groups of cells whispering, perhaps in a terse temporal code.-***-"This analysis implies that each individual psyche is fundamentally irreducible, unpredictable, inexplicable. It is certainly not simple enough to be extracted from a brain and transferred to another medium,..."-Comment: The brain will never be completely understood, but it works actively in cooperation with us.
Brain complexity: essay on the complexity
by dhw, Thursday, March 24, 2016, 13:13 (3166 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: A review of how complex are the neurons themselves and their enormous connectivity: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/the-singularity-and-the-neural-code/?WT...-Thank you for another intriguing article, and for taking so much trouble to select the juiciest sections. (I'm glad you edited out the business about the Singularity!) One point reminded me of something I have been meaning to ask you about for some time: -QUOTE: "Far from being stamped from a common mold, neurons display an astounding variety of forms and functions.”-I have found the following on the subject of stem cells, which also take on different forms and functions, and I am wondering if this may provide us with a clue as to how innovations work:-1.	Where Do Stem Cells Come From? Somatic vs Embryonic http://lymphoma.about.com › Leukemia and Lymphoma Treatment/f-(This may not give the right link, but I don't know how else to do it.)-QUOTE: “…adult stem cells have been found in many organs and tissues, including brain, bone marrow, peripheral blood, blood vessels, skeletal muscle, skin, teeth, heart, gut, liver, ovarian cells, and testis.” -Even with your remarkable 3.8-billion-year computer programme for all innovations, the cells (including the neurons) will still have to cooperate. Without going into technical details, and bearing in mind that nobody knows how the process actually works, could you just tell me if you think it feasible that innovations come about physically by means of interaction (no matter whether preprogrammed or autonomous) between neurons and stem cells, with their ability to take on different forms and functions?
Brain complexity: essay on the complexity
by David Turell , Thursday, March 24, 2016, 14:50 (3166 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: 1.	Where Do Stem Cells Come From? Somatic vs Embryonic > http://lymphoma.about.com › Leukemia and Lymphoma Treatment/f > > (This may not give the right link, but I don't know how else to do it.) > > QUOTE: “…adult stem cells have been found in many organs and tissues, including brain, bone marrow, peripheral blood, blood vessels, skeletal muscle, skin, teeth, heart, gut, liver, ovarian cells, and testis.” -Website offers no clue to your point. Sorry. Quote is correct.-> > dhw: Without going into technical details, and bearing in mind that nobody knows how the process actually works, could you just tell me if you think it feasible that innovations come about physically by means of interaction (no matter whether preprogrammed or autonomous) between neurons and stem cells, with their ability to take on different forms and functions?-Good question. My view is that all cells that can produce an action are programmed to respond to stimuli. A lining cell in a blood vessel is not such a cell. A neuron can make many changes to its function depending upon demands it receives. A stem cell makes functional cells as required. I have no idea how they would independently cooperate to invent something new. I believe in top down, not bottom up controls.
Brain complexity: essay on the complexity
by dhw, Friday, March 25, 2016, 13:25 (3165 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Without going into technical details, and bearing in mind that nobody knows how the process actually works, could you just tell me if you think it feasible that innovations come about physically by means of interaction (no matter whether preprogrammed or autonomous) between neurons and stem cells, with their ability to take on different forms and functions?-DAVID: Good question. My view is that all cells that can produce an action are programmed to respond to stimuli. A lining cell in a blood vessel is not such a cell. A neuron can make many changes to its function depending upon demands it receives. A stem cell makes functional cells as required. I have no idea how they would independently cooperate to invent something new. I believe in top down, not bottom up controls.-My question was not loaded, which is why I wrote “whether preprogrammed or autonomous”. I'll rephrase it to fit in with your beliefs: do you believe that evolutionary innovations may take place through divinely preprogrammed interactions between neurons and stem cells, with their ability to take on different forms and functions?-Xxxxxxxx-I have just read the article on genome complexity in embryology, for which many thanks: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160324142932.htm-QUOTE: "Once an egg has been fertilised by a sperm, it divides several times, becoming a large free-floating ball of stem cells. At first, these stem cells are 'totipotent', the state at which a stem cell can divide and grow and produce everything--every single cell of the whole body and the placenta, to attach the embryo to the mother's womb. The stem cells then change to a 'pluripotent' state, in which their development is restricted to generating the cells of the whole body, but not the placenta. However, the point during development at which cells begin to show a preference for becoming a specific cell type is unclear. "Now, in a study published in the journal Cell, scientists at the University of Cambridge and the European Bioinformatics Institute (EMBL-EBI) suggests that as early as the four-cell embryo stage, the cells are indeed different.”-David's comment: Genes turn on and off in embryology to create proper form under a master plan in the DNA, so they are not just making proteins. The activity has to be automatic to create the necessary result. Mistakes can make terrible anomalies. -I'm sure you're right. But as always, we go back to the question of how all this originated. If we assume that the process is common to all sexually reproduced species, and they all begin at the embryonic stage with stem cells - no matter how quickly these begin to differentiate - couldn't this tie in with the notion that stem cells, with their ability to take on different forms and functions, may be the key to speciation, even within the framework of your divine preprogramming? And is it possible that the very first cells of all were stem cells?
Brain complexity: essay on the complexity
by David Turell , Friday, March 25, 2016, 18:43 (3165 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: do you believe that evolutionary innovations may take place through divinely preprogrammed interactions between neurons and stem cells, with their ability to take on different forms and functions?-Even though I do not know how God guided evolution, it makes sense to me that He did. I believe the overall method is saltation, not requiring natural selection to act at all. Certainly stem cells and neurons could act together, or could be made to act together as part of the jump in complexity. > > Xxxxxxxx > > I have just read the article on genome complexity in embryology, for which many thanks: > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160324142932.htm > > David's comment: Genes turn on and off in embryology to create proper form under a master plan in the DNA, so they are not just making proteins. The activity has to be automatic to create the necessary result. Mistakes can make terrible anomalies. > > I'm sure you're right. ....couldn't this tie in with the notion that stem cells, with their ability to take on different forms and functions, may be the key to speciation, even within the framework of your divine preprogramming? And is it possible that the very first cells of all were stem cells?-Stem cells are part of multicellular organisms which need different types of cells. The first cells were bacteria, all in one organisms, not stem cells. Stem cells are made and required in multicellular zygotes only. Could they be part of speciation? Definitely. But their innate programming would have to be altered by '?'.
Brain complexity: essay on the complexity
by dhw, Saturday, March 26, 2016, 13:24 (3164 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: do you believe that evolutionary innovations may take place through divinely preprogrammed interactions between neurons and stem cells, with their ability to take on different forms and functions?-DAVID: Even though I do not know how God guided evolution, it makes sense to me that He did. I believe the overall method is saltation, not requiring natural selection to act at all. Certainly stem cells and neurons could act together, or could be made to act together as part of the jump in complexity. -I have covered your comment concerning saltation and natural selection in my response under "Explaining natural wonders". I'm glad you find it feasible that cooperation between neurons and stem cells might be the process involved in innovation (whether preprogrammed or not). I'd have thought cells that can take on different forms and functions as and when required would be essential to evolution. -Xxxxxxxx dhw: ...couldn't this tie in with the notion that stem cells, with their ability to take on different forms and functions, may be the key to speciation, even within the framework of your divine preprogramming? And is it possible that the very first cells of all were stem cells? -DAVID: Stem cells are part of multicellular organisms which need different types of cells. The first cells were bacteria, all in one organisms, not stem cells. Stem cells are made and required in multicellular zygotes only. Could they be part of speciation? Definitely. But their innate programming would have to be altered by '?'.-My point is that the directives for change (innovation) - whether this was preprogrammed or autonomous - would require cells that were ABLE to change. We know that stem cells can do so. But if they can only come about through sexual reproduction, clearly my second innovative thought must suffer a rapid extinction. That's natural selection for you. Many thanks for the explanation.
Brain complexity: roles of dopamine neurons
by David Turell , Monday, April 25, 2016, 18:51 (3134 days ago) @ dhw
The brain is more than just electrical signals. Chemicals like dopamine play important and at times differing roles:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-04-dopamine-neurons-role-movement.html-"Princeton University researchers have found that dopamine - a brain chemical involved in learning, motivation and many other functions - also has a direct role in representing or encoding movement. -***-"The researchers used a new, more precise technique to record the activity of dopamine neurons at two regions within a part of the brain known as the striatum, which oversees action planning, motivation and reward perception. The researchers found that while all of the neurons carried signals needed to learn and plan movement, one of the nerve bundles, the one that went to the region called the dorsomedial striatum, also carried a signal that could be used to control movements.-***-"The new study affirmed the role of dopamine in reward-based learning, but also found that in the dorsomedial striatum, dopamine neurons can play a direct role in movement. The researchers used a method for measuring neuron activity at very precise locations in the brain. They measured the activity at the ends of neurons - the terminals where dopamine is released into the junction, or synapse, between two cells - in two locations in the striatum: the nucleus accumbens, known to be involved in processing reward, and the dorsomedial striatum, known for evaluating and generating actions.-***-"The researchers found that the dopamine neurons that innervate the nucleus accumbens and the dorsomedial striatum did indeed encode reward-prediction cues, which is consistent with previous findings. But they also found that in the dorsomedial striatum, the dopamine neurons carried information about what actions the animal is going to take.-"'This idea was that dopamine neurons carry this reward-prediction error signal, and that could indirectly affect movement or actions, because if you don't have this, you won't correctly learn which actions to perform," Witten said. "We show that while this is true, it is certainly not the whole story. There is also a layer where dopamine is directly coding movement or actions."-***-"The study addresses the more general question of how dopamine can be involved in so many functions in the brain, Witten said. "We think that some of the way that dopaminergic neurons achieve such diverse functions in the brain is by having specific roles based on their anatomical target."-***-"'This study by the Witten lab elegantly shows that the activity of some dopamine neurons is modulated by the direction of motion," Uchida said. "More importantly, they found some of the clearest evidence indicating the heterogeneity of dopamine neurons: A specific population of dopamine neurons projecting to the dorsomedial striatum encodes movement direction more so compared to another population projecting to the ventral striatum.'"-***-"Uchida continued, "A similar phenomenon has also been reported in an independent study in non-human primates (Kim, et al., Cell, 2015), suggesting that the Witten lab finding is more universal and not specific to mice."-Comment: Both dopamine and the neurotransmitters at synapses can change concentrations to have differing effects, as can various hormones arriving in the blood (i.e., adrenalin)
Brain complexity: roles of dopamine neurons
by David Turell , Friday, April 29, 2016, 02:08 (3131 days ago) @ David Turell
Spoken speech is considered to be left-sided in origin generally. but listened to speech is handled all over the brain:-"Previous neuroimaging studies of how the brain interprets speech have revealed a group of brain areas called the semantic system that appears to represent the meaning of language. Traditionally, these studies have focused on a single, narrow question or hypothesis about how the brain represents word or sentence meanings.-"To map the brain's semantic representation more broadly, study coauthor Jack Gallant of UC Berkeley and colleagues scanned the brains of seven graduate student volunteers while the study participants listened to more than two hours of stories from “The Moth Radio Hour.”-*** "Next, the researchers set out to determine what type of semantic information each part of the cortex represented. Because their data contained too many dimensions to feasibly model, the researchers used principle component analysis to home in on the three dimensions that preserve most of the information. They used these dimensions to tile the brains of each participant with color-coded semantic maps, in which different cortical regions corresponded to concepts such as people, places, or visual properties.-"Finally, Gallant's team developed a computational method to combine the maps of the different individuals to create a general semantic atlas. Despite some variation, the maps were surprisingly similar across individuals. This, the authors noted, may in part have been an effect of the small, somewhat homogeneous sample (graduate students at UC Berkeley).-***-"One of the more surprising findings was the functional symmetry between both brain hemispheres of the people studied, which appears to contradict decades of research on brain-injury patients suggesting a left-hemisphere bias in language processing. But most of these studies were focused on speech production, whereas the present study examined speech comprehension, Gallant told The Scientist."-Comment: Not surprising. Speaking involves the intent of one's organized thought. Listen requires understanding the words but also the underlying ideas behind what is heard
Brain complexity: not at all a computer
by David Turell , Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 15:11 (3111 days ago) @ David Turell
Finally an article that captures my point of view. As a biologic 'computer' the brain is not at all like the computers we use. And we can never mimic it:-https://aeon.co/essays/your-brain-does-not-process-information-and-it-is-not-a-computer?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=8347861ad6-Daily_Newsletter_18_May_20165_18_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-8347861ad6-68942561-"No matter how hard they try, brain scientists and cognitive psychologists will never find a copy of Beethoven's 5th Symphony in the brain - or copies of words, pictures, grammatical rules or any other kinds of environmental stimuli. The human brain isn't really empty, of course. But it does not contain most of the things people think it does - not even simple things such as ‘memories'.-"Our shoddy thinking about the brain has deep historical roots, but the invention of computers in the 1940s got us especially confused. For more than half a century now, psychologists, linguists, neuroscientists and other experts on human behaviour have been asserting that the human brain works like a computer.-***-"A healthy newborn is also equipped with more than a dozen reflexes - ready-made reactions to certain stimuli that are important for its survival. It turns its head in the direction of something that brushes its cheek and then sucks whatever enters its mouth. It holds its breath when submerged in water. It grasps things placed in its hands so strongly it can nearly support its own weight. Perhaps most important, newborns come equipped with powerful learning mechanisms that allow them to change rapidly so they can interact increasingly effectively with their world, even if that world is unlike the one their distant ancestors faced.-***-"Forgive me for this introduction to computing, but I need to be clear: computers really do operate on symbolic representations of the world. They really store and retrieve. They really process. They really have physical memories. They really are guided in everything they do, without exception, by algorithms.-"Humans, on the other hand, do not - never did, never will. Given this reality, why do so many scientists talk about our mental life as if we were computers?-***-"When strong emotions are involved, millions of neurons can become more active. In a 2016 study of survivors of a plane crash by the University of Toronto neuropsychologist Brian Levine and others, recalling the crash increased neural activity in ‘the amygdala, medial temporal lobe, anterior and posterior midline, and visual cortex' of the passengers.-"The idea, advanced by several scientists, that specific memories are somehow stored in individual neurons is preposterous; if anything, that assertion just pushes the problem of memory to an even more challenging level: how and where, after all, is the memory stored in the cell?-***-"But the IP metaphor is, after all, just another metaphor - a story we tell to make sense of something we don't actually understand. And like all the metaphors that preceded it, it will certainly be cast aside at some point - either replaced by another metaphor or, in the end, replaced by actual knowledge.-***-"The faulty logic of the IP metaphor is easy enough to state. It is based on a faulty syllogism - one with two reasonable premises and a faulty conclusion. Reasonable premise #1: all computers are capable of behaving intelligently. Reasonable premise #2: all computers are information processors. Faulty conclusion: all entities that are capable of behaving intelligently are information processors.-"To understand even the basics of how the brain maintains the human intellect, we might need to know not just the current state of all 86 billion neurons and their 100 trillion interconnections, not just the varying strengths with which they are connected, and not just the states of more than 1,000 proteins that exist at each connection point, but how the moment-to-moment activity of the brain contributes to the integrity of the system. Add to this the uniqueness of each brain, brought about in part because of the uniqueness of each person's life history, -***-"We are organisms, not computers. Get over it. Let's get on with the business of trying to understand ourselves, but without being encumbered by unnecessary intellectual baggage. The IP metaphor has had a half-century run, producing few, if any, insights along the way. The time has come to hit the DELETE key."-Comment: The baby brain starts with a blank slate and reflexes and builds from there. Romansh needs to read this. With a solipsistic approach the article should be read completely.
Brain complexity: how words are handled
by David Turell , Thursday, May 19, 2016, 13:02 (3110 days ago) @ David Turell
A three minute video showing they are scattered all over the place, but grouped with some reasonableness in a pattern:-https://aeon.co/videos/see-how-our-brains-group-words-by-meaning-in-surprisingly-complex-semantic-maps?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=1959476651-Daily_Newsletter_19_May_20165_19_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-1959476651-68942561-Comment: All done with research fMRI. Worth taking the time to watch. Doesn't explain what it all means
Brain complexity: Consciousness, brain 42% active
by David Turell , Friday, May 27, 2016, 14:41 (3102 days ago) @ David Turell
An amazing study using radioactive glucose on patients in various states of consciousness and normal controls finds consciousness requires 42% of the brain must be active. Glucose is the brain's fuel:-http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/46175/title/Quantifying-Consciousness/&utm_campaign=NEWSLETTER_TS_The-Scientist-Daily_2016&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=30023521&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_m2MWMeq2tvPluxBmYMTWS3sZ0pMe67UAippNDSqyz-yW07f4wHOlUCaURQ1Q_NVsqmG3uNddGo_nwChk82JO8gYrYJQ&_hsmi=30023521/-"Differentiating states of consciousness in brain-injured patients is a major challenge for clinicians. Researchers from the University of Copenhagen, Denmark, and their colleagues recently used positron emission tomography (PET) to measure the metabolism of glucose in the brains of 131 patients, finding that 42 percent of normal cortical function is the minimum amount of energy required for conscious awareness. The findings provide “a simple and objective metabolic marker” of consciousness, the authors wrote in their study, published today (May 26) in Current Biology.-***-"In the present study, Kupers and colleagues conducted PET imaging on 131 patients with disorders of consciousness and 28 healthy controls. This involves injecting glucose labeled with a radioactive tracer into the bloodstream to measure sugar uptake in an organ—in this case, the brain. To account for differences among individuals, the researchers normalized glucose uptake in the brain with that of surrounding tissue.-"Kupers's team identified a sharp cutoff for regaining consciousness of 42 percent of the normal, healthy metabolic rate. One year after the PET study, the brain's metabolic rate predicted the return of awareness for 94 percent of the patients in the study, the researchers reported. In addition, regional differences in glucose metabolism (relative to whole-brain metabolism) correlated with the patients' likelihood of regaining certain cognitive functions, such as vision and language comprehension, the team showed.-"In the present study, Kupers and colleagues conducted PET imaging on 131 patients with disorders of consciousness and 28 healthy controls. This involves injecting glucose labeled with a radioactive tracer into the bloodstream to measure sugar uptake in an organ—in this case, the brain. To account for differences among individuals, the researchers normalized glucose uptake in the brain with that of surrounding tissue.-"Kupers's team identified a sharp cutoff for regaining consciousness of 42 percent of the normal, healthy metabolic rate. One year after the PET study, the brain's metabolic rate predicted the return of awareness for 94 percent of the patients in the study, the researchers reported. In addition, regional differences in glucose metabolism (relative to whole-brain metabolism) correlated with the patients' likelihood of regaining certain cognitive functions, such as vision and language comprehension, the team showed.-***-"The take-home message . . . is that consciousness is a highly energy demanding process, involving the brain at large,” Kupers said in the statement. “This fundamental physiological trait can help clinicians determine the potential for recovery of awareness in patients suffering from severe brain injuries of any kind.'”-Comment: It is not difficult to understand that a flat EEG means unconsciousness, making observed flat EEG patients who have had NDE's more significant.
Brain complexity: Dopamine levels and memory
by David Turell , Sunday, June 05, 2016, 23:18 (3093 days ago) @ David Turell
Research has shown how different regions of the brain disengage during working memory by changing dopamine levels: - http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-06-reveals-interaction-neural-networks-memory.html - How does the cross-talk between brain networks change when working memory - the mental assembly of information needed to carry out a particular task—is engaged? Investigators at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) have found that dopamine signaling within the cerebral cortex can predict changes in the extent of communication between key brain networks during working memory. - *** - Our principal finding is that dopamine signaling within the cortex predicts the extent to which the frontoparietal control network—which directly mediates working memory performance—becomes disconnected from the default network - which is active when the brain is awake but directed towards internal tasks, such as thinking about past or future events," says Joshua Roffman, MD, of the MGH Department of Psychiatry, lead and corresponding author of the paper. "The disengagement of these two networks is what allows us to shift our focus away from internal events and towards the performance of many types of cognitive tasks." - *** - After first confirming that connection between the frontoparietal control network and the default network abruptly drops when healthy volunteers begin engaging in a working memory task, the researchers then showed that the disengagement between the two networks was strongest in individuals with the lowest cortical density of D1 receptors, which reflects higher dopamine levels. D1 receptor density did not affect how accurately study participants completed the memory task. - *** - An associate professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, Roffman notes that this result is in line with previous studies in primate models showing that dopamine signaling on a cellular level is essential to a key aspect of working memory - determining which neural signals to pay attention to and which to ignore. This study is the first to examine how this cellular-level activity is expanded to a network-wide level in the brains of healthy humans. He states, "We hope that improved understanding of the role of dopamine in organizing cortical networks will lead us to better ways of improving working memory in patients with schizophrenia and other illnesses through optimized dopamine signaling." - Comment:This study clearly shows that both electrical signals and dopamine molecules work in a coordinated fashion as we shift tasks. The brain works for us.
Brain complexity: Dopamine levels and memory
by dhw, Monday, June 06, 2016, 12:56 (3092 days ago) @ David Turell
David's comment: This study clearly shows that both electrical signals and dopamine molecules work in a coordinated fashion as we shift tasks. The brain works for us.-And yet when scientists identify the coordinated electrical and chemical processes that accompany cellular behaviour, you insist that these drive the cell, as opposed to the cell driving the processes. I know, I know, your dogma is unshakable.
Brain complexity: Dopamine levels and memory
by David Turell , Monday, June 06, 2016, 20:30 (3092 days ago) @ dhw
David's comment: This study clearly shows that both electrical signals and dopamine molecules work in a coordinated fashion as we shift tasks. The brain works for us. > > dhw: And yet when scientists identify the coordinated electrical and chemical processes that accompany cellular behaviour, you insist that these drive the cell, as opposed to the cell driving the processes. I know, I know, your dogma is unshakable. -Dopamine is made by brain cells; axons in developing networks are guided by instructions in cells. The cells are intimately involved in these processes with the instructions contained in the cells. your cart is before your horse.
Brain complexity: Responses to silence
by David Turell , Sunday, June 19, 2016, 14:15 (3079 days ago) @ David Turell
The world has become very noisy, but the brain has built-in reactions to silence: - http://nautil.us/issue/16/nothingness/this-is-your-brain-on-silence - "In the mid 20th century, epidemiologists discovered correlations between high blood pressure and chronic noise sources like highways and airports. Later research seemed to link noise to increased rates of sleep loss, heart disease, and tinnitus. (It's this line of research that hatched the 1960s-era notion of “noise pollution,” a name that implicitly refashions transitory noises as toxic and long-lasting.) - "Studies of human physiology help explain how an invisible phenomenon can have such a pronounced physical effect. Sound waves vibrate the bones of the ear, which transmit movement to the snail-shaped cochlea. The cochlea converts physical vibrations into electrical signals that the brain receives. The body reacts immediately and powerfully to these signals, even in the middle of deep sleep. Neurophysiological research suggests that noises first activate the amygdalae, clusters of neurons located in the temporal lobes of the brain, associated with memory formation and emotion. The activation prompts an immediate release of stress hormones like cortisol. People who live in consistently loud environments often experience chronically elevated levels of stress hormones. - *** - "Bernardi observed physiological metrics for two dozen test subjects while they listened to six musical tracks. He found that the impacts of music could be read directly in the bloodstream, via changes in blood pressure, carbon dioxide, and circulation in the brain. (Bernardi and his son are both amateur musicians, and they wanted to explore a shared interest.) “During almost all sorts of music, there was a physiological change compatible with a condition of arousal,” he explains. - "This effect made sense, given that active listening requires alertness and attention. But the more striking finding appeared between musical tracks. Bernardi and his colleagues discovered that randomly inserted stretches of silence also had a drastic effect, but in the opposite direction. In fact, two-minute silent pauses proved far more relaxing than either “relaxing” music or a longer silence played before the experiment started. - *** - " One of his key findings—that silence is heightened by contrasts—is reinforced by neurological research. In 2010, Michael Wehr, who studies sensory processing in the brain at the University of Oregon, observed the brains of mice during short bursts of sound. The onset of a sound prompts a specialized network of neurons in the auditory cortex to light up. But when sounds continue in a relatively constant manner, the neurons largely stop reacting. “What the neurons really do is signal whenever there's a change,” Wehr says. - *** - "The sudden onset of silence is a type of change too, and this fact led Wehr to a surprise. Before his 2010 study, scientists knew that the brain reacts to the start of silences. (This ability helps us react to dangers, for example, or distinguish words in a sentence.) But Wehr's research extended those findings by showing that, remarkably, the auditory cortex has a separate network of neurons that fire when silence begins. “When a sound suddenly stops, that's an event just as surely as when a sound starts.” - *** - "As it turned out, even though all the sounds had short-term neurological effects, not one of them had a lasting impact. Yet to her great surprise, Kirste found that two hours of silence per day prompted cell development in the hippocampus, the brain region related to the formation of memory, involving the senses. This was deeply puzzling: The total absence of input was having a more pronounced effect than any sort of input tested. - "Here's how Kirste made sense of the results. She knew that “environmental enrichment,” like the introduction of toys or fellow mice, encouraged the development of neurons because they challenged the brains of mice. Perhaps the total absence of sound may have been so artificial, she reasoned—so alarming, even—that it prompted a higher level of sensitivity or alertness in the mice. Neurogenesis could be an adaptive response to uncanny quiet. - *** - "In 2001, Raichle and his colleagues published a seminal paper that defined a “default mode” of brain function—situated in the prefrontal cortex, active in cognitive actions—implying a “resting” brain is perpetually active, gathering and evaluating information. Focused attention, in fact, curtails this scanning activity. The default mode, Raichle and company argued, has “rather obvious evolutionary significance.” Detecting predators, for example, should happen automatically, and not require additional intention and energy. (my bold) - *** - "During this time when the brain rests quietly, wrote Moran and colleagues, our brains integrate external and internal information into “a conscious workspace.” - "Freedom from noise and goal-directed tasks, it appears, unites the quiet without and within, allowing our conscious workspace to do its thing, to weave ourselves into the world, to discover where we fit in. That's the power of silence." - Comment: Two thoughts. This article shows the intimacy between the brain and bodily reactions. No surprise. But note the bolded paragraph. Our ancient hunter-gatherer reaction are still present. Our brain is built to help us.
Brain complexity: solving visual confusion
by David Turell , Wednesday, June 29, 2016, 18:14 (3069 days ago) @ David Turell
If each eye sees something different how is that resolved?-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-06-human-early-visual-cortex-subconsciously.html-"When two different images are separately presented to the matching retinal locations of both eyes, instead of seeing a mixed image, normal observers perceive a spontaneous alternation between the images. This striking visual phenomenon, called binocular rivalry, has been used as a tool by cognitive neuroscientists to study the brain mechanisms that resolve ambiguities to generate conscious perception. This is because in binocular rivalry, conscious experience changes while physical stimuli remain constant.--"When two different images are separately presented to the matching retinal locations of both eyes, instead of seeing a mixed image, normal observers perceive a spontaneous alternation between the images. This striking visual phenomenon, called binocular rivalry, has been used as a tool by cognitive neuroscientists to study the brain mechanisms that resolve ambiguities to generate conscious perception. This is because in binocular rivalry, conscious experience changes while physical stimuli remain constant.-"For the brain to engage the conflict resolution mechanism, an intuitive assumption is that the brain first "detects" the conflict. A central question is whether the conflict needs to be consciously detected for it to be resolved. In the case of binocular rivalry, in which the conflict exists between the two eyes, the question becomes whether binocular rivalry requires conscious awareness of the conflicting information between the two eyes. ....The research question is straightforward: If the conflicting features of the two eyes' images were invisible, leading to identical perceptual interpretations, would rivalry competition still occur?-***-"In a series of creatively designed behavioral experiments, researchers revealed that although perceptually there was no difference between the two eyes' images, the invisible orientation conflict between the two eyes indeed induced rivalry competitions. An invisible grating presented to one eye produced rivalry competition with a low contrast visible grating presented to the other eye. Switching from a uniform field to a perceptually matched invisible grating, all without observers noticing any change, produced interocular suppression at approximately 200 ms after the onset of the invisible grating. Furthermore, experiments using briefly presented monocular probes revealed evidence for sustained rivalry competition between two invisible gratings during continuous presentations.-"These findings show that the human brain initiates mechanisms, presumably in the sensory cortex with minimal involvement of the fronto-parietal cortex, to resolve conflicting information in visual input even when the conflicting information is not consciously perceived. Researchers conclude that visual competition could occur without conscious representation of the conflicting visual inputs. This forms an interesting and important contrast with early findings made by the same group, i.e., that focused attention is required for conflict resolution in the brain. "-Comment: As usual we find that the brain is built to help us, not confuse us. Yes, the brain controls what visual results we perceive, but it is a useful result.
Brain complexity: solving visual confusion
by David Turell , Wednesday, June 29, 2016, 20:39 (3069 days ago) @ David Turell
Another article on the complexities involved in giving us useful vision. It is an interview and I'm reproducing answers which compare our brain to computers that are said to be very different. Note the first comment:-http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/unlocking-the-mystery-of-how-the-brain-creates-vision/?WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20160629-"It's that computers are giving us the closest thing that we have right now to an analogous mechanism. The brain is really, really complex. It deals with massive amounts of data. We need help in organizing these data and computers can do that. Right now, there are algorithms that can identify an object as a phone or as a mug, just like the brain. But are they doing the same thing? Probably not.-***-"There are two ways that information flows. In the first way, which we call “bottom up,” information begins with points of light entering our eyes that fall onto your retinae. These points are processed by our visual systems and transformed into increasingly complex forms, from points to lines to edges to shapes and, ultimately, to objects and scenes. But the problem is that this array of light coming into our eyes is noisy and difficult to interpret, so just progressively making more and more complex interpretations of the light image would be rather slow.-"To help solve this problem, our brains appear to use a wide array of “top-down influences.” That is, our experience and memories help us to anticipate and interpret what is in front of us. We've all seen a keyboard in front of a computer before, so if I show you a very blurry image of one, your experiences fill in the gaps before you have a clear picture.-***-" visual illusions exploit our unconscious expectations. Disconcertingly, these same predictions can also influence our memories. One study I performed looked at false memories. If I showed you an image with an oven in it, for example, you might later recall seeing an oven and a refrigerator, because you typically see ovens and refrigerators in the same space. In fact, one image I used was of my own kitchen, which had a strange set-up. My washer and dryer were stacked one on top of the other inside the kitchen, but when asked to recall the image, many people remembered seeing a refrigerator because that's what should have been there.-"We have a very good idea of how low-level information is processed. That is, the early bit where points of light are transformed into lines, etc. At the same time, we are also beginning to have a better understanding of how we process very high levels [of information], that is, how a kitchen or a keyboard is represented in our brains. But we don't know how to connect low-level visual input with such high-level information. And this is where computer vision models are proving to be extremely interesting. As working systems, they actually have to come up with a solution to this problem - how you take points of light and figure out what scene you are looking at.-***-"On the human side, it's amazing how much we don't know about how the brain understands the visual scene. That's really incredible when you consider that the visual scene affects every aspect of our understanding. My expectations at the office and at the swimming pool are going to be radically different. Based on the visual input I receive, my language, my actions, even my goals will be different. The more effective we can be in understanding the environment around us, the more we can build models of how people generally reason about the world using this rich source of information.-***-"We're still working with crude human neuro-imaging techniques. The tools we have to visualize what is happening inside the human brain are exciting, but each point in our data is actually the average response over millions of neurons, making it very difficult to understand the micro-structure of neural information processing. There are 86 billion or so neurons, each an individual cell that transmits information in the human brain, and we are very far away from neuroscientific methods that will allow us to see how each of these units interact with one another. We're limited by that."-Comment: This all plays to my overarching point. Our brain is a biological camera. It cannot be like the camera eyes of a robot running on a computer, so as described our brain adds necessary parts to give us an integrated picture, that is obviously very useful and accurate. We cannot expect anything else. Can we be fooled? Obviously. is that critical? No.
Brain complexity: solving visual confusion
by dhw, Thursday, June 30, 2016, 13:36 (3068 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: We're still working with crude human neuro-imaging techniques. The tools we have to visualize what is happening inside the human brain are exciting, but each point in our data is actually the average response over millions of neurons, making it very difficult to understand the micro-structure of neural information processing. There are 86 billion or so neurons, each an individual cell that transmits information in the human brain, and we are very far away from neuroscientific methods that will allow us to see how each of these units interact with one another. We're limited by that."-David's comment: This all plays to my overarching point. Our brain is a biological camera. It cannot be like the camera eyes of a robot running on a computer, so as described our brain adds necessary parts to give us an integrated picture, that is obviously very useful and accurate. We cannot expect anything else. Can we be fooled? Obviously. is that critical? No.-Thank you for these two articles. I'm not at all sure what your overarching point is. You emphasize “that the brain is built to help us, not confuse us. Yes, the brain controls what visual results we perceive, but it is a useful result”. I don't think any of us would doubt that the brain is useful, or that it is highly efficient, even though it is fallible (can be fooled). But what these scientists are trying to find out is how it all works, and there are two points that strike me about these articles in relation to two of the subjects we keep returning to over and over again. One is the question of what constitutes the “us” that the brain helps, i.e. our identity; and tied in with this is the nature of the cell. Approximately 86 billion individual cells are transmitting information to and interacting with one another - and that's in the brain alone. I have seen an estimate of 37.2 trillion for the number of individual cells in the human body (a trillion = 1,000,000,000,000), and they all in their different ways pass on information and interact. “We” consist of all these communities, which for the most part get on with their work quite independently of “us” (in the sense of the identity that appears to exercise control over “our” conscious actions). And so quite apart from the wonder of it all, we have the mystery of it all. What is the “dark energy” that controls the microcosms when they act independently of “our” control, and what is the “dark energy” that enables the macrocosm of the “self” to mobilize the microcosms? Or is it the microcosms that direct the macrocosm?
Brain complexity: directed liquid flow in ventricles
by David Turell , Friday, July 08, 2016, 19:16 (3060 days ago) @ dhw
The brain's four ventricles help with brain force movement when the skull is hit. They also supply nutrients and remove waste. Cells on the linings with cilia direct flow:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-07-visualize-cilia-based-networks-brain-vital.html-"We have all bumped our heads at some point, and such incidents are usually harmless. This is thanks to fluid-filled chambers in our brain that offset minor knocks and jolts and provide padding for sensitive components of our nervous system. Cerebral fluid, however, has more than just a protective function: It removes cellular waste, supplies our nervous tissue with nutrients, and transports important messenger substances. How these messenger substances are actually being delivered to their destination in the brain, however, was unclear until now. Göttingen-based Max Planck researchers have now discovered that tiny cilia on the surface of specialized cells could lead the way. Through synchronized beating movements, they create a complex network of dynamic flows that act like conveyor belts transporting molecular "freight". The results obtained by the scientists suggest that these flows send messenger substances directly to where they are needed. -***-"For their experiments, the researchers in Göttingen concentrated on the third cerebral ventricle, which is embedded in the hypothalamus. "The hypothalamus is a very important control center, regulating functions like the circulatory system, body temperature, sexual behavior, food intake, and hormonal balance. To our surprise, there is a sophisticated transport system to and from the hypothalamus for distributing messenger substances via cerebral fluid," -***-"In these images, we can see a complex network of fluid paths inside the cerebral ventricle. However, in contrast to the blood which flows through our blood vessels, these paths are not confined by walls. The exciting question for us was therefore: Is the flow pattern created solely by the synchronized beating of the cilia?" reports Regina Faubel, first author of the study that has now been published in the current issue of the renowned science journal Science. The researchers then filmed the cilia live in action, thus determining the direction of the beating as well as the resulting flows. "Our experiments have shown that the flows are actually generated solely by the movements of the cilia. These act like conveyor belts and would therefore be an ideal means of transporting messenger substances to the right place in the brain," says Eberhard Bodenschatz, Head of the Department of Fluid Dynamics, Pattern Formation and Biocomplexity at the MPI for Dynamics and Self-Organization. "These flows could also help to restrict substances locally, in that the fluid paths flowing against one another could act like barriers," adds Christian Westendorf, second author of the study. -"However, in contrast to the road networks that we travel on daily by car or bicycle, these fluid paths are by no means rigid. To the researchers' surprise, the cilia changed the direction of beating in a temporal rhythm. This came as a big surprise as according to the prevalent school of thought the direction of cilia beating cannot be changed.-"'In the cerebral fluid of humans, there are hundreds - if not thousands - of physiologically active substances," Eichele explains. "We are assuming that the network of flows we discovered plays an important role in distributing these substances. In other experiments, we would like to look at which messenger substances are transported via the flows, and where these are ultimately deposited in the tissue". "But the understanding of the physics of fluid dynamics of cilia is also itself a research objective," adds Bodenschatz."-Comment: Another high complexity arrangement. The brain uses up to 20% or more of our energy consumption. These fluids supply nutrients, take away waste. They also deliver hormonal and other liquid signals which are in addition to electrical signals. Not by chance.
Brain complexity: memory in hippocampus
by David Turell , Friday, July 08, 2016, 20:06 (3060 days ago) @ David Turell
Mouse studies have found a memory spot in the hippocampus:-https://www.newscientist.com/article/2096424-memories-of-favourite-locations-have-a-special-place-in-brain/-"Place cells are neurons that help us map our surroundings, and both mice and humans have such cells in the hippocampus - a brain region vital for learning, memory and navigation.-"Nathan Danielson at Columbia University in New York and his colleagues focused on a part of the hippocampus that feeds signals to the rest of the brain, called CA1. They found that in mice, the CA1 layer where general environment maps are learned and stored is different to the one for locations that have an important meaning.-"They discovered this by recording brain activity in the two distinct layers of CA1, using mice placed on a treadmill. The treadmill rotated between six distinctive surface materials - including silky ribbons, green pom-pom fabric and silver glitter masking tape. At all times, the mice were able to lick a sensor to try to trigger the release of drinking water.-"During the first phase of the experiment, however, the sensor only worked at random times. The mice formed generalised maps of their experience on the multi-surfaced treadmill, and the team found that these were stored in the superficial layer of CA1. -"Then the team activated the sensor only when the mice were on a specific surface, such as the one with silky strips. Mice learned to coordinate their licking with being on the “active” zone, and developed a map that was stored in the deeper layer of CA1.-"The team's conclusion, Danielson says, is that the superficial CA1 layer forms a stable baseline representation of the environment, while the deeper layer maps emotional significance.-“'It's like navigating to your favourite restaurant,” says Danielson. “You need to know the general area, and the wider environment, but the location of the restaurant is of special significance, and incorporates an emotional element,” he says."-Comment: Memories of favored events, i.e., one's wedding are thought to spread across much more of the brain. This study is much for more specific minor issues.
Brain complexity: memory in hippocampus: GPS
by David Turell , Wednesday, July 13, 2016, 15:08 (3055 days ago) @ David Turell
It turns out we have a GPS in the hippocampus, but that makes sense if the hippocampus deals in memory it must deal in geographic memories as we map out our surroundings:-http://www.pnas.org/content/113/28/7900.full-"In recent years, research on mammalian navigation has focused on the role of the hippocampus, a banana-shaped structure known to be integral to episodic memory and spatial information processing. The hippocampus's primary output, a region called CA1, is known to be divided into superficial and deep layers. Now, using two-photon imaging in mice, researchers at Columbia University in New York have found these layers have distinct functions: superficial-layer neurons encode more-stable maps, whereas deep-layer brain cells better represent goal-oriented navigation, according to a study published last week (July 7) in Neuron.-***-"Losonczy, Danielson, and colleagues used two-photon calcium imaging to measure neural activity in the superficial and deep sublayers of hippocampal area CA1 in mice while the animals performed either “random foraging” or “goal-oriented learning” tasks. Two-photon imaging “is an extremely powerful method, because it allows us and others to look at the activity of not just a single cell, but of a relatively large population of neurons in hippocampal CA1,” Danielson explained. -***-“'What's particularly impressive to me in the study is that the anatomy in the hippocampus segregates two aspects of memory”—a stable map of the environment, and a representation of new goals or targets, neuroscientist Howard Eichenbaum of Boston University, who was not involved in the work, told The Scientist.-"It's a bit like Google Maps on your phone, Eichenbaum explained: the plot of your environment with a dot for your location is the stable map, whereas the target address and directions for getting there comprise the goal-oriented system.-***-"Compared with rodents, humans have a much larger CA1 area, and a much larger ratio of cortex association areas to hippocampus. Extending the findings to humans and other primates “would require a systematic study comparing their [hippocampus] anatomy and structure with their performance” in a navigation task, Danielson said.-"Perhaps one of the best studies of human navigation ability is the 2006 London taxi driver study. Researchers from University College London conducted structural MRI scans of London cab drivers and bus drivers, controlling for individuals' driving experience and stress levels. Compared with the bus drivers, the cab drivers had a higher volume of grey matter in their mid-posterior hippocampi, and a lower volume in their anterior hippocampi. The more years of experience the cabbies had, the greater the grey matter differences, the researchers found."-Comment: As usual our brain is built to help us. The two layers cover spatial memory and travel intent. Note this is a direct cell study, not fMRI.
Brain complexity: not at all a computer
by David Turell , Sunday, July 17, 2016, 21:29 (3051 days ago) @ David Turell
A different view of Epstein's essay with a comment on the meaning of genetic information:-https://sergiograziosi.wordpress.com/2016/05/22/robert-epsteins-empty-essay/-"Unfortunately, the essay is systematically wrong: virtually every key passage is mistaken, and yet, overall, it tries to make an argument that is worth making. Thus, I grew annoyed by the mistakes and misrepresentations (my immediate comment was “this is so wrong it hurts”), and then descended into anger because Epstein is actually damaging the credibility of an approach that I find promising, but is all too often misunderstood or straw-manned.-***- "First of all, the IP metaphor is pervasive because it's useful, as I've demonstrated above. Second, I've never heard, and have no need to deploy such a silly syllogism. The reasoning I'm defending is that it is reasonable to interpret complex control mechanisms in terms of information processing. Brains are complex control mechanism, and therefore it is reasonable to deploy the IP metaphor when describing and studying their inner workings.-***-"Embodiment is the surprisingly radical hypothesis that the brain is not the sole cognitive resource we have available to us to solve problems.-"To me, it is self-evident that this radical idea is basically correct, and at the same time, it is a reason why it is so difficult to figure out how brains work. One needs to account for much more than just neurons… At the same time, while I do accept the basic idea without reservations, I am also worried that, as exemplified by the short discussion I've linked above, radically rejecting all uses of the “representation” concept isn't going to work: what needs to be done is different, but perhaps something that is best left for another time.-"Overall, Cognitive Neuroscience is tricky, it is prohibitively hard, and, as I argue in the introduction here, it is of paramount importance to carefully select the correct metaphors in order to convincingly describe the vast number of different phenomena occurring at different scales (from the psychological, to the neural, down at least to the molecular). In this context, expecting that at one or more of these levels the IP metaphor will prove to be useful (as it is in the case of computers) is entirely justified."-Comment: I understand Epstein's point of view, that the brain is a helpful biological computer-like organ. But I also see the author's view that in acting like a computer it is hard to avoid making necessary comparisons. This article needs to be read in full to really follow the disagreements.-And there is an interesting comment on 'information':- Information is in the eye of the beholder, and that is precisely why it's a useful concept. Furthermore, it is entirely possible and appropriate to describe information in terms of underlying structures.-To make the concept even more clear, let's look at another biological phenomenon: inheritance and DNA. You can (and should) describe DNA in structural terms: things like the double helix, the shape of nucleotides, the molecular mechanisms of DNA replication, of protein synthesis and so forth. However, once all of the above is done, it is handy to also describe stretches of DNA in terms of pure information, namely the sequence of nucleotides, represented by the letters A, T, C and G. Thus a stretch of DNA can be effectively described by something like this A picture of the DNA code letters is given)-The image above is a representation of the gene which encodes for Insulin. Crucially, it is this kind of description which enabled the production of synthetic Insulin and thus the production of cheaper and safer medication. My point: both a purely structural and a purely information-centric descriptions of the Insulin gene are possible. The latter is more abstract, and because of that it is frequently more useful.-Comment: But the information contained in the letters is how to make insulin in the pancreas. Nowhere is that information seen in the above example, just the code for it, but that information must exist somewhere. We just don't see it and can't use it! Making synthetic insulin is by implanting the gene in bacteria which then dutifully produce insulin. We don't synthesize. They do!! We have no handle on the gene's instructions, which is information! Does this clarify the word 'information' for you?
Brain complexity: many dedicated areas
by David Turell , Thursday, July 21, 2016, 15:08 (3047 days ago) @ David Turell
The recent research on brain areas has turned up unrecognized areas of brain connectivity. There are many small discrete regions that join in for specific reasons:-http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/science/human-connectome-brain-map.html?emc=edit_th_20160721&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=60788861&_r=0-"On Wednesday, in what many experts are calling a milestone in neuroscience, researchers published a spectacular new map of the brain, detailing nearly 100 previously unknown regions — an unprecedented glimpse into the machinery of the human mind.-***-“'This map you should think of as version 1.0,” said Matthew F. Glasser, a neuroscientist at Washington University School of Medicine and lead author of the new research. “There may be a version 2.0 as the data get better and more eyes look at the data. We hope the map can evolve as the science progresses.”-"The first hints of the brain's hidden geography emerged more than 150 years ago. In the 1860s, the physician Pierre Paul Broca was intrigued by two of his patients who were unable to speak.-"After they died, Broca examined their brains. On the outer layer, called the cortex, he found that both had suffered damage to the same patch of tissue.-***-"In addition to looking at the activity of the brain, the scientists also looked at its anatomy. They measured the amount of myelin, for example, a fatty substance that insulated neurons. They found sharp contrasts in myelin levels from one region of the cortex to the next.-“'We have 112 different types of information we can tap into,” said David C. Van Essen, a principal investigator with the Human Connectome Project at Washington University Medical School-***-"The map produced by the computer includes 83 familiar regions, such as Broca's area, but includes 97 that were unknown — or just forgotten.-***-"In other parts of the cortex, the scientists were able to partition previously identified regions into smaller ones. For example, they discovered that a large region near the front of the brain, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, actually is made up of a dozen smaller zones.-"The region becomes active during many different kinds of thought, ranging from decision-making to deception. It's possible that each of the newly identified smaller parts is important for one of those tasks."-Comment: Not surprising. Since we know the brain is so plastic it can construct and reconstruct itself to manage the learning and thinking needs of its individual's needs, basic areas developed initially for action and speech have subdivided into an intricate mosaic of subunits. Light years beyond an ape brain which will have the same motor control areas and little else.
Brain complexity: calcium necessary for memory
by David Turell , Friday, August 26, 2016, 20:29 (3011 days ago) @ David Turell
Work in fruit flies finds heir memory is damaged if calcium uptake into mitochondria is blocked, but they can still learn. Notable also is the complexity of the controls on calcium :-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-08-scientists-role-calcium-memory.html-"In particular, the team showed in fruit flies, a widely used model system, that blocking a channel that brings calcium to the mitochondria, called "mitochondrial calcium uniporter," causes memory impairment but does not alter learning capacity.-"'When we knocked down the activity of the uniporter, we found that flies have a deficit memory," said Ron Davis, chair of the TSRI's Department of Neuroscience. "Intact uniporter function is necessary for full and complete memory in the adult fly. What surprised us is that they were still able to learn—albeit with a fleeting memory. But we thought they wouldn't be able to learn at all."-"The mitochondrial calcium uniporter protein, first identified in 2011, allows calcium ions to move from the cell's interior into mitochondria—like coal moving through a shoot into a furnace room. It is regulated by other proteins known as MICU1, MICU2 and EMRE. Davis noted that human patients with mutations in MICU1 can exhibit learning disabilities.-"'The new study's conclusion is that mitochondrial calcium entry during development is necessary to establish the neuronal competency for supporting adult memory,..."-"Drago noted the team found evidence that inhibiting mitochondrial calcium uniporter function led to a decrease in the content of synaptic vesicles (miniscule sacs within the cell where various neurotransmitters are stored) and an increase in the length of axons (the slender filaments of neurons).-"While these structural problems were clearly observed, she added, what they mean in terms of neuronal development remains tantalizingly unclear.-"'The discovery of a developmental role for the mitochondrial calcium uniporter complex in regulating memory in adult flies is especially intriguing and deserves more exploration," said Davis."-Comment: I assume a feedback loop controls the necessary calcium concentration in mitochondria. One wonders how so many control proteins were recruited during evolution to set up this mechanism. An accurate memory is vital to staying alive and should develop quickly. Again, saltation seems necessary. God?
Brain complexity: importance analyzed
by David Turell , Friday, September 16, 2016, 14:30 (2990 days ago) @ David Turell
New mathematical approaches to brain complexity help diagnosis: - https://aeon.co/ideas/the-fugue-of-life-why-complexity-matters-in-neuroscience?utm_sour... - "A concept called self-organised criticality (SOC), first described in 1987 by the physicists Per Bak, Chao Tang and Kurt Wiesenfeld of the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York, helps to explain. To understand SOC, imagine a sandpile at the beach. If we add sand to the sandpile until the slope is too steep to support more sand, avalanches erupt, ranging in size from a few grains to a large portion of the pile. These avalanches result from a slow process (adding sand) that builds energy, and a fast process (the force of gravity overcoming the force of friction) that dissipates energy. The instability of the sandpile is a complex state that is formally known as criticality. As with complex brain activity, avalanches exist at all spatial and temporal scales and cannot be understood merely by studying constituent parts of the system. - "Like the sandpile, the brain is poised at the edge of criticality. But while sandpile avalanches do not process information in any meaningful way, neural avalanches - cascades of complex brain activity described by researchers at the US National Institute of Mental Health in 2003 - might be vital for a brain that transitions rapidly between many cognitive states and motor programmes. In other words, in a living system such as the brain, SOC is not disorder but, rather, a mechanism for carrying out rapid computations, not unlike the self-organising behaviour of financial markets rapidly ‘determining' prices, or electorates rapidly transitioning between political majorities. For the brain, a loss of criticality - and, thus, of complex behaviour - is pathological. - "It is unsurprising, then, that complex behaviour observed in electrical brain activity might serve as a useful biomarker of disease risk or prognosis. This doesn't mean that having a crazy, erratic brain signal is healthy! A useful definition of complexity is a balance between opposing tendencies such as order and disorder, or stability and instability. Using mathematical tools that quantify complexity, researchers at leading institutions across the globe have already identified potential biomarkers of psychiatric disorders, including autism and schizophrenia, in EEG signals recorded non-invasively from the scalp. - *** - "Imagine anatomical brain regions as Facebook friends connected by anatomical fibres. As in social networks, 20 per cent of the regions (or Facebook profiles) account for 80 per cent of the connections. Like social networks, brain regions form densely interconnected ‘cliques', mini-networks embedded within the larger network. These cliques are often part of still larger cliques, a condition known as modularity. On Facebook, your closest friends might be part of a larger, looser collection of friends, who in turn are part of an even larger community, such as a town or university. In both social networks and brains, it is the complex interactions between parts that give rise to phenomena at all scales. Both brains and social networks are somewhat analogous to an ant colony: organised activity occurs across spatial scales, and you cannot study just one ant to grasp the colony as a whole. - *** - "In fact, across all scales of brain organisation and activity, scale-free distribution abounds. Recordings of electrical activity from the scalp and cortex fluctuate such that no average frequency exists. Scale-free distribution has been shown in measurements of neural spiking, opening and closing of ion channels, and neurotransmitter release at the synapse. - "While it is unclear exactly which mechanisms give way to neural complexity and healthy behaviour, keeping track of complexity is important to understanding and identifying brain disorders such as epilepsy, autism and schizophrenia. Measuring the complexity of brain activity could soon allow doctors to predict which infants will develop autism and how schizophrenia patients will respond to medication. As the physicist Emerson Pugh said: ‘If our brains were simple enough for us to understand them, we'd be so simple that we couldn't.'" - Comment: The most complex object in the universe did not develop by chance. it only took six million years of 3.8 billion years of life. This article explains some of he functionality, but not consciousness.
Brain complexity: newborn neuron migration
by David Turell , Thursday, October 06, 2016, 19:24 (2970 days ago) @ David Turell
The amount of migratory neurons in newborn humans is much greater than seen in other species and is part of our brain's uniqueness:-http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-10-human-neurons-migrate-birth.html-"Researchers at UC San Francisco have discovered a previously unknown mass migration of inhibitory neurons into the brain's frontal cortex during the first few months after birth, revealing a stage of brain development that had previously gone unrecognized. The authors hypothesize that this late-stage migration may play a role in establishing fundamentally human cognitive abilities and that its disruption could underlie a number of neurodevelopmental diseases. -"Most neurons of the cerebral cortex - the outermost layer of the brain responsible for advanced cognition - migrate outward from their birthplaces deep in the brain to take up their positions within the cortex. Developmental neuroscientists have long thought that most neural migration ends well before an infant is born, but the new paper—published October 6, 2016 in Science—suggests for the first time that many neurons continue to migrate and integrate into neural circuits well into infancy.-***-"Several labs had observed that there seemed to be many young neurons around birth along the ventricles, but no one knew what they were doing there," said Paredes. "As soon as we looked closely, we were shocked to discover how massive this population was and to find that they were still actively migrating for weeks and weeks after birth."-"To determine whether these immature neurons - which the researchers dubbed "the Arc" - actively migrate in the newborn brain, researchers used viruses to label immature neurons in tissue samples collected immediately after death and observed that Arc cells move inch-worm style through the brain, much as neurons migrate in the fetal brain.-"Further histological studies of the cingulate cortex, a portion of the brain's frontal lobe, show that Arc neurons migrate outward from the ventricles into the cortex primarily within the first three months of life, where they differentiate into multiple different subtypes of inhibitory neurons.-***-"The new research suggests that inhibitory circuits in humans develop significantly later than previously realized. This postnatal migration is much larger than what is seen in mice and other mammals, the authors say, suggesting that it may be an important developmental factor behind the uniqueness of the human brain.-"The first months of life, when an infant first begins to interact with its environment, is a crucial time for brain development, Huang said. "The timing of this migration corresponds very well with the development of more complex cognitive functions in infants. It suggests that the arrival of these cells could play a role in setting up the basis for complex human cognition.'"-Comment: Research keeps finding new ways to show our brain is especially developed as compared to other animals.
Brain complexity: newborn neuron migration
by David Turell , Friday, October 07, 2016, 16:13 (2969 days ago) @ David Turell
Another article with more information:-http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/47207/title/Nascent-Neurons-Journey-Through-Newborn-Brain/&utm_campaign=NEWSLETTER_TS_The-Scientist-Daily_2016&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=35506671&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--Rdr677la22p0c1MIqnVvnVi3HI3sGO09zQY7xglxUnAvXmPd5KGuSaShKAi9hNB-y5nYwsW-qmvAnCG9H0fotrlWN-Q&_hsmi=35506671-"The human cerebral cortex experiences a burst of growth late in fetal development thanks to the expansion and migration of progenitor cells that ultimately form excitatory neurons. For a fully functional brain, in addition to excitatory neurons, inhibitory ones (called interneurons) are also necessary. Yet scientists have not been able to account for the increase in inhibitory neurons that occurs after birth. Now, in a paper published today (October 6) in Science, researchers from the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), have shown that there is a reserve of young neurons that continue to migrate and integrate into the frontal lobes of infants.-***-“'The fact that these cells can traverse such complicated territory and travel what are incredibly long distances—up to four centimeters—to get to where they need to go and contribute to circuitry well after birth is really astonishing,” said Alvarez-Buylla. -"The migratory cells decreased with increasing age, with very few cells detected by 7 months and none by age 6. The researchers also found that the number and subtypes of interneurons increased between birth and 5 months within a region of the cortex adjacent to the migration path of the newly born cells, suggesting that these migratory cells populate the cortex in infancy with various types of interneurons. “The surprise is that the prenatal movement of neurons continues postnatally to accommodate such a big territory in the frontal lobe which is important for cognitive and emotional development and executive function,” Huang told The Scientist. “The human brain developed this clever mechanism to prolong the migration.”-"To Berninger's mind, the work highlights the power of observational research. The researchers “did not use particularly novel methods but rather followed their own lead that migration patterns in human infants differs markedly from those in other mammals, digging deeper than anybody else had before . . . to uncover this new picture of neuron migration in the human brain,” he wrote.-"For Fishell, the work implies that while these young neurons stop migrating by 7 months, they may provide a reserve of immature neurons in the brain for building new circuits throughout childhood and even into adolescence, when the cortex goes through major developmental changes.-"Alvarez-Buylla agreed. “Even after the cells get to their final location in the cortex, it may take months or years for them to fully mature which might coincide with key features of plasticity in human brain development,” he noted.-“'In one swoop, this study provides a new substrate neuronal population in which developmental, evolutionary, and functional changes may occur,” wrote neuroscientist Nenad Sestan of Yale University who was not involved in the work in an email to The Scientist. “And the timing of the appearance of these neurons suggests either their migration or their integration into neural networks, or both, may be regulated by external stimuli and/or experience.'”-Comment: This method of supplying enough neurons for the large frontal lobe to develop properly is amazing. Four centimeters of migration. How do they know where to go? What guides them to the proper spots? But obviously a large supply is needed to begin to plastically respond to the newborn as it experiences life and begins to be able to understand and reason. If evolutionary changes in an organ are driven by need where did the need come from to jump to a final Homo species to enlarge the frontal lobe? Previous species did not know what they did not know, i.e., the ability of H. sapiens brains to think. This huge gap in development occurred and then was learned to be used. The H. sapiens brain is the same as it was 200,000 years ago in volume but much more complex because it was given the ability to respond to use, by methods such as migration of neurons! Saltation. God.
Brain complexity: newborn neuron migration
by dhw, Saturday, October 08, 2016, 12:38 (2969 days ago) @ David Turell
David's comment: This method of supplying enough neurons for the large frontal lobe to develop properly is amazing. Four centimeters of migration. How do they know where to go? What guides them to the proper spots? But obviously a large supply is needed to begin to plastically respond to the newborn as it experiences life and begins to be able to understand and reason. If evolutionary changes in an organ are driven by need where did the need come from to jump to a final Homo species to enlarge the frontal lobe? Previous species did not know what they did not know, i.e., the ability of H. sapiens brains to think. This huge gap in development occurred and then was learned to be used. The H. sapiens brain is the same as it was 200,000 years ago in volume but much more complex because it was given the ability to respond to use, by methods such as migration of neurons! Saltation. God. (dhw's bold) - Twice you have pointed out that the supply of neurons/the complexity of the brain is a RESPONSE to experience/understanding/reasoning/use. You are a dualist. This can only mean that as consciousness has more and more things to be conscious of, the brain complexifies in order to contain and process the ever increasing amount of information provided by consciousness. Under “Egnor” you claim that form appears before function. But according to your own comment, form (brain complexification) is a response to function (experience, understanding, reasoning, use), and so function comes first.
Brain complexity: newborn neuron migration
by David Turell , Saturday, October 08, 2016, 15:23 (2968 days ago) @ dhw
David's comment: This method of supplying enough neurons for the large frontal lobe to develop properly is amazing. Four centimeters of migration. How do they know where to go? What guides them to the proper spots? But obviously a large supply is needed to begin to plastically respond to the newborn as it experiences life and begins to be able to understand and reason. If evolutionary changes in an organ are driven by need where did the need come from to jump to a final Homo species to enlarge the frontal lobe? Previous species did not know what they did not know, i.e., the ability of H. sapiens brains to think. This huge gap in development occurred and then was learned to be used. The H. sapiens brain is the same as it was 200,000 years ago in volume but much more complex because it was given the ability to respond to use, by methods such as migration of neurons! Saltation. God. (dhw's bold) > > dhw: Twice you have pointed out that the supply of neurons/the complexity of the brain is a RESPONSE to experience/understanding/reasoning/use.-No. the migrating neurons are supplied first, before there is any experience to modify them, The newborn brain starts as a blank slate. -> dhw: You are a dualist. This can only mean that as consciousness has more and more things to be conscious of, the brain complexifies in order to contain and process the ever increasing amount of information provided by consciousness. -True.-> dhw:Under “Egnor” you claim that form appears before function. But according to your own comment, form (brain complexification) is a response to function (experience, understanding, reasoning, use), and so function comes first.-No, size and capacity comes first. One learns how to use one's brain. 200,000 years ago H sapiens was given a new sized brain but, at first used it like his predecessors. With time the brain came to be our modern one today, but each infant starts the same way.-Interestingly you make no comment about the process itself of enhancing the frontal lobe. That is my key point, the amazing complexity. The early Homos were far better off than the apes. The advance to a bigger brain was not needed. There is obviously a supplied drive to complexity.
Brain complexity: newborn neuron migration
by dhw, Sunday, October 09, 2016, 12:55 (2967 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Twice you have pointed out that the supply of neurons/the complexity of the brain is a RESPONSE to experience/understanding/reasoning/use. DAVID: No. the migrating neurons are supplied first, before there is any experience to modify them. The newborn brain starts as a blank slate. -As a layman, I can only rely on what the experts tell us, and you know far more about these matters than I do. But how do you know the newborn brain is a blank slate? Some researchers believe that babies already begin to learn language, for instance, from the sounds they hear while still in the womb. In any case, the article says the following: “And the timing of the appearance of these neurons suggests either their migration or their integration into neural networks, or both, may be regulated by external stimuli and/or experience.'”-If the timing of their appearance may be regulated by stimuli or experience, how can you be so sure that they are already there before the baby has had any stimuli or experience?-dhw: You are a dualist. This can only mean that as consciousness has more and more things to be conscious of, the brain complexifies in order to contain and process the ever increasing amount of information provided by consciousness. -DAVID: True. dhw: Under “Egnor” you claim that form appears before function. But according to your own comment, form (brain complexification) is a response to function (experience, understanding, reasoning, use), and so function comes first. DAVID: No, size and capacity comes first. One learns how to use one's brain. 200,000 years ago H sapiens was given a new sized brain but, at first used it like his predecessors. With time the brain came to be our modern one today, but each infant starts the same way.-“Was given” a new sized brain is the point at issue. Still basing the argument on your dualism, if - as you have agreed - the brain complexifies in order to contain and process the information provided by consciousness, then consciousness must come first. The brain receives/responds: how can it receive/respond if there is nothing to receive/respond to? 200,000 years ago the new sized brain must therefore have been the RESULT of enhanced consciousness, as it responded physically to the new requirements engendered by a wider range of experiences. If you are prepared to consider materialism, i.e. the brain PRODUCES consciousness, you might have a more logical case, which could be developed out of your next comment.-DAVID: Interestingly you make no comment about the process itself of enhancing the frontal lobe. That is my key point, the amazing complexity. The early Homos were far better off than the apes. The advance to a bigger brain was not needed. There is obviously a supplied drive to complexity.-That is a different point which we have discussed over and over again. Yes, since life forms have not been confined to bacteria, there has to be an inborn drive not only for survival but also for improvement, and the drive for improvement inevitably entails greater complexity.
Brain complexity: doing two things simultaneously
by David Turell , Monday, January 02, 2017, 00:50 (2883 days ago) @ dhw
The brain sets up two different functional networks:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2016/12/08/are-we-split-brain/#.WEyQFdIzXV
"When you’re doing two things at once – like listening to the radio while driving – your brain organizes itself into two, functionally independent networks, almost as if you temporarily have two brains. That’s according to a fascinating new study from University of Wisconsin-Madison.
***
"In referring to ‘split brains’ in their title, Sasai et al. are linking their work to the literature on patients who have had a callosotomy, a radical brain operation that literally splits the brain in two by cutting the corpus callosum, the nerve tract that connects the left and right hemispheres of the cerebral cortex.
"Only a small number of people with severe epilepsy have a callosotomy, but Sasai et al. argue that the healthy brain can ‘split’ itself when multitasking. Here’s how Sasai et al. illustrate the hypothesis of a ‘functional’ split between networks in the normal human brain, as opposed to a surgical left-right split.
"Sasai et al. demonstrated this using fMRI. Thirteen participants who were scanned while performing a virtual driving task in which they had to navigate a road system. There was also a listening task: the audio stimuli were either a “GPS” voice that gave the participant instructions on where to drive to, or a “radio show” consisting of extracts from recent news articles, that were unrelated to driving.
"The integration between the two networks, assessed through a multivariate measure of functional connectivity based on coordinated shifts of multivoxel patterns across time, was higher in the integrated task compared with the split task. Furthermore, the integration of information between the two networks, assessed by the improvement in prediction accuracy of the joint dynamics of the two networks over their independent dynamics, was high in the integrated task and zero in the split task.
"In other words, when the GPS voice was helping the participants to drive (“integrated task”), the brain ‘driving network’ and ‘listening network’ were acting in concert, with a high degree of functional connectivity. But when the drivers were listening to the radio show (“split task”), the two networks were largely independent – indeed, by one metric, which the authors call “integrated information“, they were completely separate.
"Sasai et al. go on to discuss the implications for our sense of self and consciousness
An intriguing question is what happens to consciousness when driving while listening in the split condition… does driving become unconscious, as on autopilot? Or, does a normally integrated conscious stream split into two separate conscious streams that coexist within the same brain, as indicated by studies of patients with an anatomically split brain? Integrated information is thought to be essential for consciousness (28), and the reduction of integrated information demonstrated here is at least compatible with a split in consciousness.
"This is really interesting stuff. I’m not sure these results are directly relevant to consciousness, though. We don’t know for sure whether (say) the “driving network” is responsible for our conscious experiences related to driving. It’s possible that there is a “consciousness centre” elsewhere in the brain (the prefrontal cortex or the precuneus, perhaps), that integrates input from lower-level brain regions such as the “driving network”. If so, surely the disconnected nature of the lower-level networks would not necessarily preclude a unified consciousness."
Comment: I'm sure most of us can multitask our brains all the time, and it has nothing to do with splitting our consciousness. I repeat, our brain is built to help us understand reality and as we mature from childhood builds up a repertoire of mechanisms to fill in some of the gaps in understanding reality. We all have seen ways to trick our brain. but that doesn't take away from its utility. Be sure to look at the diagrams in the article. Very interesting.
Brain complexity: human specialized neurons
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 04, 2017, 15:15 (2880 days ago) @ David Turell
We don't just have a big brain. Our neurons are different with special membrane capacitance that allows higher speed of response:
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-01-unique-electrical-properties-human-nerve.html
"The theoretical study predicted that layer 2/3 pyramidal neurons from the human temporal cortex would have a specific membrane capacitance that is half of the commonly accepted "universal" value for biological membranes (~0.5 µF/cm2 vs. ~1 µF/cm2). Since membrane capacitance affects how quickly a cell can respond to its synaptic inputs, this finding has important implications for the transmission of signals within and between cells. The theoretical prediction regarding the specific membrane capacitance was then validated experimentally by direct measurements of membrane capacitance in human pyramidal neurons.
"'This is the first direct evidence for the unique electrical properties of human neurons," said researcher Guy Eyal, a Ph.D. student at the Hebrew University's Department of Neurobiology. "Our finding shows that low membrane capacitance significantly improves the efficacy of signal processing and the speed of communication within and between cortical neurons in the human neocortex, as compared to rodents."
"The results of this work imply that human cortical neurons are efficient electrical microchips, compensating for the larger brain and large cells in humans, and processing sensory information more effectively," said Prof. Idan Segev from the Department of Neurobiology and the Edmond and Lily Safra Center for Brain Sciences at the Hebrew University. "Indeed, the study shows that already at the level of the individual building blocks of the nervous system (the nerve cells), humans are distinct as compared to rodents. More research should be performed in this direction on non-human primates."
"The researchers suggest the distinctive biophysical membrane properties of human pyramidal neurons are an outcome of evolutionary pressure to compensate for the increase in size and distances in the human brain."
Comment: An other distinct human brain difference in the quality of function, higher speed of reaction times for more efficient brain function. The authors of the study blame 'evolutionary pressure' suggesting this was accomplished stepwise. It is more likely saltation as each new hominin ancestor arrived with a larger brain size and the newer more efficient neurons in place
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Friday, January 13, 2017, 20:32 (2871 days ago) @ David Turell
Doing fMRI's on baby brains is obviously difficult, but can be accomplished while they nap. They are very undeveloped at birth but appear to have some pre-designed functional areas:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/20170110-infant-brains-reveal-how-the-mind-gets-built/?u...
"They presented babies with movies of faces, natural scenes, human bodies and objects — toys, in this case — as well as scrambled scenes, in which parts of the image are jumbled. Saxe said they focused on faces versus scenes because the two stimuli create a sharp difference in adult brains, evoking activity in very different regions.
"Surprisingly, they found a similar pattern in babies. “Every region that we knew about in adults [with] a preference for faces or scenes has that same preference in babies 4 to 6 months old,” Saxe said. That shows that the cortex “is already starting to have a bias in its function,” she said, rather than being totally undifferentiated.
"Are babies born with this ability? “We can’t strictly say that anything is innate,” Deen said. “We can say it develops very early.” And Saxe points out that the responses extended beyond the visual cortex (the structures of the brain responsible for directly processing visual inputs). The researchers also found differences in the frontal cortex, an area of the brain involved in emotions, values and self-representation. “To see frontal cortex engagement in a baby is really exciting,” she said. “It’s thought to be one of the last spots to fully develop.”
"However, while Saxe’s team found that similar areas of the brain were active in babies and adults, they did not find evidence that infants have areas specialized for one particular input, like faces or scenes, over all others. Nelson, who was not involved in the study, said it suggests that infant brains are “more multipurpose,” he said. “That points out a fundamental difference in the infant brain versus the adult brain.”
"It’s surprising that babies’ brains behave like adults’ brains at all considering how different they look. On a computer screen outside the MRI room at MIT, I can see anatomical images of Riley’s brain that were taken while she napped. Compared to MRI scans of adult brains, in which different brain structures are clearly visible, Riley’s brain seems creepily dark.
“'It looks like this is just a really poor image, doesn’t it?” Kosakowski said. She explains that babies at this stage have not yet fully developed the fatty insulation around nerve fibers, called myelin, that makes up the brain’s white matter. The corpus callosum, a yoke of nerve fibers connecting the two hemispheres of the brain, is only dimly visible.
"At this age, a baby’s brain is expanding — the cerebral cortex swells by 88 percent in the first year of life. Its cells are also reorganizing themselves and rapidly forming new connections to one another, many of which will get winnowed back throughout childhood and adolescence. At this stage, the brain is astonishingly flexible: when babies have strokes or seizures that require having an entire hemisphere of the brain surgically removed, they recover remarkably well."
Comment: Presented to show the forefront of brain science. The baby brain is apparently almost a blank slate at birth, but must contain some guidance in tne neurons' DNA.
Brain complexity: response variability
by David Turell , Thursday, May 18, 2017, 17:48 (2746 days ago) @ David Turell
A rat study that shows how variable responses are generated by differing brain areas:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/social-sciences/random-brain-action-plays-crucial-role-in-de...
"We rely on our prefrontal cortex to make ideal decisions based on experience, but it’s the unpredictability from our secondary motor cortex that gives us an evolutionary edge.
"The brain’s prefrontal cortex – the seat of decision-making – has no input into the timing of random actions, new research shows.
"Neuroscientists at the Champalimaud Centre for the Unknown (CCU) in Lisbon, Portugal, reveal the unexpected finding in a report that aims to unpack how humans and other animals decide how and when to act.
"Neuroscientists have long accepted that even in strictly controlled laboratory conditions, the exact moment when a subject will decide to act is impossible to predict.
"The combination of reason and randomness that drives how and when action-based decisions are made is thought to carry an evolutionary fitness dividend.
"If an animal repeated the exact same flight-or-fight response every time a certain set of circumstances arose, it chances of survival would be fatally low, because a predator would learn to anticipate the action. A random element in either timing or execution is therefore beneficial.
"Using rats, the CCU team, led by Masayoshi Murakami, set out to discover which parts of the brain influence response randomness.
"Previous studies have identified two areas active in the co-ordination of decision-making and consequent movement: the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC); and part of the motor cortex known as M2.
"In a two-phase experiment, rats were taught to associate a particular tone with a reward. Waiting to act until a second tone sounded, after a randomly generated interval, produced a greater reward.
"The interval was designed to test the rodents’ patience, inviting them to act impulsively before the second signal.
"Murakami and his colleagues monitored the neural activity of the rats’ mPFC and M2 regions to measure their involvement in random action.
"The two different regions within the brain seem to play very different roles in the generation of action timing, says co-author Zach Mainen: “The medial prefrontal cortex appears to keep track of the ideal waiting time based on experience. The secondary motor cortex also keeps track of the ideal timing but in addition shows variability that renders individual decisions unpredictable.”
"He describes the finding as “most surprising”, one that suggests a “not-well-appreciated ‘separation of powers’ within the brain”.
"The experimental results, he adds, find at least metaphorical resonance on a much larger scale: "A similar interplay between optimisation and generation of variability underlies the theory of evolution. Here, we have begun to see how this plays out in the brain.'"
Comment: This shows the brain acts as a help to our decisions, supplying a variable support.
Brain complexity: evolutionary path from the Cambrian
by David Turell , Wednesday, May 31, 2017, 20:31 (2733 days ago) @ David Turell
Very simple fish-like creatures appeared in the Cambrian. That had simple brains and notochords rather than bony spines. The amphioxus is an intermediate form before vertebrates developed and had a two part brain, not three part like ours:
https://phys.org/news/2017-05-fossil-brain-evolution.html
"An international team involving researchers at the University of St Andrews have examined the amphioxus, also known as the Lancelet, which was thought to be a brainless, faceless fish. Instead, they found it has a very complex brain which confounds previous understanding of how vertebrate brains evolved.
"The latest research, carried out by the Universities of St Andrews, Murcia and Barcelona and the Centre for Genomic Regulation, published in PLoS Biology, compared the amphioxus brain with current models of brain development in vertebrates, such as chicks and fish.
"The new research casts doubt on the current textbook idea that the complex vertebrate brain evolved from a simple three-part brain composed of forebrain, midbrain and hindbrain. Rather, the new research suggests that the vertebrate brain must originally have formed from two parts.
"Dr Ildiko Somorjai of the School of Biology at the University of St Andrews, co-author of the study, said: "Amphioxus is an amazing creature that can tell us a lot about how we have evolved. Humans have enormous brains with a large number of anatomical subdivisions to allow processing of complex information from the environment, as well as behavioural and motor control and language.
"Research in amphioxus tells us that even an outwardly simple brain may have complex regionalisation. It also strengthens the position of amphioxus as an important non-vertebrate model for understanding vertebrate evolution and development, with clear implications for biomedical research."
"Described as a "brainless, faceless fish", amphioxus was found off the coast of Orkney during a marine survey in 2011, and is thought to be among the first animals to have evolved a structure similar to a backbone, the notochord.
"Despite its appearance, amphioxus is not a fish. It has a primitive spinal cord which runs down its back, but no clearly defined face, no bones or jaws and a small brain with a single light-sensing "frontal eye". It has changed so little for hundreds of millions of years that it has been described as a "living fossil".
"As the best living proxy for the vertebrate ancestor, amphioxus gives important insight into what humanity's distant ancestor looked like, and how it might have behaved."
Comment: Another example of the increasing complexity driving evolution.
Brain complexity:multidimensional areas in neocortex
by David Turell , Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 05:25 (2721 days ago) @ David Turell
Latest studies in neuronal network complexity show multidimensional complexity:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-06-blue-brain-team-multi-dimensional-universe.html
"Using algebraic topology in a way that it has never been used before in neuroscience, a team from the Blue Brain Project has uncovered a universe of multi-dimensional geometrical structures and spaces within the networks of the brain.
"The research, published today in Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience, shows that these structures arise when a group of neurons forms a clique: each neuron connects to every other neuron in the group in a very specific way that generates a precise geometric object. The more neurons there are in a clique, the higher the dimension of the geometric object.
"'We found a world that we had never imagined," says neuroscientist Henry Markram, director of Blue Brain Project and professor at the EPFL in Lausanne, Switzerland, "there are tens of millions of these objects even in a small speck of the brain, up through seven dimensions. In some networks, we even found structures with up to eleven dimensions."
"Markram suggests this may explain why it has been so hard to understand the brain. "The mathematics usually applied to study networks cannot detect the high-dimensional structures and spaces that we now see clearly."
***
"In 2015, Blue Brain published the first digital copy of a piece of the neocortex - the most evolved part of the brain and the seat of our sensations, actions, and consciousness. In this latest research, using algebraic topology, multiple tests were performed on the virtual brain tissue to show that the multi-dimensional brain structures discovered could never be produced by chance. Experiments were then performed on real brain tissue in the Blue Brain's wet lab in Lausanne confirming that the earlier discoveries in the virtual tissue are biologically relevant and also suggesting that the brain constantly rewires during development to build a network with as many high-dimensional structures as possible. (my bold)
"When the researchers presented the virtual brain tissue with a stimulus, cliques of progressively higher dimensions assembled momentarily to enclose high-dimensional holes, that the researchers refer to as cavities. "The appearance of high-dimensional cavities when the brain is processing information means that the neurons in the network react to stimuli in an extremely organized manner," says Levi. "It is as if the brain reacts to a stimulus by building then razing a tower of multi-dimensional blocks, starting with rods (1D), then planks (2D), then cubes (3D), and then more complex geometries with 4D, 5D, etc. The progression of activity through the brain resembles a multi-dimensional sandcastle that materializes out of the sand and then disintegrates.'"
"The big question these researchers are asking now is whether the intricacy of tasks we can perform depends on the complexity of the multi-dimensional "sandcastles" the brain can build. Neuroscience has also been struggling to find where the brain stores its memories. "They may be 'hiding' in high-dimensional cavities," Markram speculates."
Comment: note my bold: not by chance. Neo-cortex is the most evolved. It is part of the continuous enlargement of the brain which allows the most complex concepts to be developed,after primary enlargement has occurred. Size first, use second.
Brain complexity:multidimensional areas in neocortex
by dhw, Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 11:34 (2721 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTES: In 2015, Blue Brain published the first digital copy of a piece of the neocortex - the most evolved part of the brain and the seat of our sensations, actions, and consciousness. In this latest research, using algebraic topology, multiple tests were performed on the virtual brain tissue to show that the multi-dimensional brain structures discovered could never be produced by chance. (David’s bold) Experiments were then performed on real brain tissue in the Blue Brain's wet lab in Lausanne confirming that the earlier discoveries in the virtual tissue are biologically relevant and also suggesting that the brain constantly rewires during development to build a network with as many high-dimensional structures as possible. (dhw’s bold)
"The big question these researchers are asking now is whether the intricacy of tasks we can perform depends on the complexity of the multi-dimensional "sandcastles" the brain can build.” (dhw’s bold)
DAVID’s comment: note my bold: not by chance. Neo-cortex is the most evolved. It is part of the continuous enlargement of the brain which allows the most complex concepts to be developed, after primary enlargement has occurred. Size first, use second.
I agree that it’s not by chance. These cell communities seem to know what they’re doing. Maybe God set up the whole mechanism. Note my bold: what these researchers are examining are the complexities. Nothing to do with expansion, which ceased 200,000 years ago and is now slowly being reversed by shrinkage. Since rewiring (even if only in the form of temporary “sandcastles”) is the result of conceptualization, once again the process is concept followed by rewiring followed by “use”, i.e. making concepts into reality
Brain complexity:multidimensional areas in neocortex
by David Turell , Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 17:45 (2720 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID’s comment: note my bold: not by chance. Neo-cortex is the most evolved. It is part of the continuous enlargement of the brain which allows the most complex concepts to be developed, after primary enlargement has occurred. Size first, use second.
dhw: I agree that it’s not by chance. These cell communities seem to know what they’re doing. Maybe God set up the whole mechanism. Note my bold: what these researchers are examining are the complexities. Nothing to do with expansion, which ceased 200,000 years ago and is now slowly being reversed by shrinkage. Since rewiring (even if only in the form of temporary “sandcastles”) is the result of conceptualization, once again the process is concept followed by rewiring followed by “use”, i.e. making concepts into reality.
I would state it slightly differently. These neurons are programmed to respond this way. It has to be designed programming. Only a designing mind can do this, therefore God.
The complexity of the brain's reactive ability is staggering. The original article:
http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fncom.2017.00048/full#h4
"Since the reconstructions are stochastic instantiations at a specific age of the neocortex, they do not take into account rewiring driven by plasticity during development and learning. Rewiring is readily triggered by stimuli as well as spontaneous activity (Le Be and Markram, 2006), which leads to a higher degree of organization (Chklovskii et al., 2004; Holtmaat and Svoboda, 2009) that is likely to increase the number of cliques. The difference may also partly be due to incomplete axonal reconstructions that would lead to lower connectivity, but such an effect would be minor because the connection rate between the specific neurons recorded for this comparison is reasonably well constrained (Reimann et al., 2015).
"The digital reconstruction does not take into account intracortical connections beyond the microcircuit. The increase in correlations between neurons with the number of cliques to which they belong should be unaffected when these connections are taken into account because the overall correlation between neurons saturates already for a microcircuit of the size considered in this study, as we have previously shown (Markram et al., 2015). However, the time course of responses to stimuli and hence the specific shape of trajectories may be affected by the neighboring tissue.
"In conclusion, this study suggests that neocortical microcircuits process information through a stereotypical progression of clique and cavity formation and disintegration, consistent with a recent hypothesis of common strategies for information processing across the neocortex. We conjecture that a stimulus may be processed by binding neurons into cliques of increasingly higher dimension, as a specific class of cell assemblies, possibly to represent features of the stimulus, and by binding these cliques into cavities of increasing complexity, possibly to represent the associations between the features of the stimulus (Hebb, 1949; Braitenberg, 1978), and by binding these cliques into cavities of increasing complexity, possibly to represent the associations between the features of the stimulus (Hebb, 1949; Braitenberg, 1978), and by binding these cliques into cavities of increasing complexity, possibly to represent the associations between the features."
Comment: this is just a preliminary study into brain complexity. When it is recognized that this is the pinnacle of evolutionary complexity, it must be recognized that this is a preliminary goal of evolution. And as you admit it is not be chance, only a designing God is left as the cause. The brain is programmed to adapt to use as you describe. Size first use second, obviously.
Brain complexity:multidimensional areas in neocortex
by David Turell , Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 19:48 (2720 days ago) @ David Turell
Here is another study looking at the pre-frontal region doing conceptual work:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170613120531.htm
"For the study, co-authored by Drexel faculty including Jennifer Nasser, PhD, and Hasan Ayaz, PhD, 26 participants wore fNIRS headbands while they completed three different art activities (each with rest periods between). For three minutes each, the participants colored in a mandala, doodled within or around a circle marked on a paper, and had a free-drawing session.
"During all three activities, there was a measured increase in bloodflow in the brain's prefrontal cortex, compared to rest periods where bloodflow decreased to normal rates.
"The prefrontal cortex is related to regulating our thoughts, feelings and actions. It is also related to emotional and motivational systems and part of the wiring for our brain's reward circuit. So seeing increased bloodflow in these areas likely means a person is experiencing feels related to being rewarded.
***
"Doodling in or around the circle had the highest average measured bloodflow increase in the reward pathway compared to free-drawing (the next highest) and coloring. However, the difference between each form of art-making was not statistically significant, according to analysis.
"'There were some emergent differences but we did not have a large-enough sample in this initial study to draw any definitive conclusions," Kaimal said.
"It was noted and tracked which participants in the study considered themselves artists so that their results could be compared to non-artists. In that way, Kaimal and her team hoped to understand whether past experience played a factor in triggering feelings of reward.
Doodling seemed to initiate the most brain activity in artists, but free-drawing was observed to be about the same for artists and non-artists. Interestingly, the set coloring activity actually resulted in negative brain activity in artists.
"'I think artists might have felt very constrained by the pre-drawn shapes and the limited choice of media," Kaimal explained. "They might also have felt some frustration that they could not complete the image in the short time.'"
Comment; I've seen pictographs in the Western USA. Stick figures of animals and people, very primitive and blown whitish material around a hand, giving a silhouette figure. Made in the past 14,000 years or so after they migrated from Asia. The American Indians used stone age bows and arrows, made shelters out of hides, learned to ride horses in the past 500 years, had a spiritual religion of a 'great spirit', had differing languages, etc. As big a brain as the European explorers, but a tiny fraction of European use. Size first, use second!
Brain complexity: mapping circuits
by David Turell , Wednesday, August 09, 2017, 19:30 (2663 days ago) @ David Turell
Turns out to be a very difficult task so tiny brains are used, such as fruit fly larva:
http://www.nature.com/news/how-to-map-the-circuits-that-define-us-1.22437?WT.ec_id=NATU...
"her fly larvae can be made to perform 30 different actions, including retracting or turning their heads, or rolling. The actions are generated by a brain comprising just 15,000 neurons. That is nothing compared with the 86 billion in a human brain, which is one of the reasons Zlatic and her teammates like the maggots so much.
“'At the moment, really, the Drosophila larva is the sweet spot,” says Albert Cardona, Zlatic's collaborator and husband, who is also at Janelia. “If you can get the wiring diagram, you have an excellent starting point for seeing how the central nervous system works.”
***
"And the resulting neural-network diagrams are yielding surprises — showing, for example, that a brain can use one network in multiple ways to create the same behaviours.
"But understanding even the simplest of circuits — orders of magnitude smaller than those in Zlatic's maggots — presents a host of challenges. Circuits vary in layout and function from animal to animal. The systems have redundancy that makes it difficult to pin one function to one circuit. Plus, wiring alone doesn't fully explain how circuits generate behaviours; other factors, such as neurochemicals, have to be considered. “I try to avoid using the word 'understand',” says Florian Engert, who is putting together an atlas of the zebrafish brain at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. “What do you even mean when you say you understand how something works? If you map it out, you haven't really understood anything.” (my bold)
"Still, scientists are beginning to detect patterns in simple circuits that may operate in more complex brains. “This is what we hope,” says Willie Tobin, a neuroscientist at Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts: “that we can come across general principles that can help us understand larger systems.”
***
"For 30 years, neuroscientist Eve Marder of Brandeis University in Waltham, Massachusetts, has been working on a simple circuit of 30 neurons in the crab gastric system. Its role is simple and the wiring diagram has been in hand for decades. Still, the circuit has mysteries to offer. Marder has shown, for instance, that although the circuits of individual animals may look the same and produce the same output, they vary widely in the strength of their signals and the conductance at their synapses.
***
"Then, in Cardona's lab, scientists worked through mapping the larval brains, compiling thousands of images of brain slices taken with electron microscopes and painstakingly tracing the connections between neurons. This map forms the starting point for the rest of their efforts — map the circuit, manipulate the circuit, watch the behaviour (see 'Connecting the dots'). On page 175, the team uses this protocol to reveal how a circuit in the Drosophila brain called the mushroom body controls learning and memory, by linking feelings of reward or punishment with sensory information7. But the mapping process is a big hold-up in the field right now, Cardona says. Reconstructing a 160-neuron portion of the fly smell-detection circuit for another paper8 took Cardona's team more than 1,100 hours. One estimate9, extrapolating from previous fruit-fly work, suggests that a map of the full adult fly brain would take hundreds of person-years to complete. Automating the process would help, but algorithms can add bogus connections or miss some entirely. (my bold)
***
"Those working on larger circuits often break the problem down — assembling a list of cell types first. The Mouse Brain Connectivity Atlas at the Allen Institute for Brain Science in Seattle, Washington, is taking this approach. In work published in 2014, the team identified10 49 types of cell in the mouse visual cortex alone; the cells vary in size and shape, how fast they fire and what genes they express. The team expects orders of magnitude more cell types across the whole brain. “Up to 10,000 neuronal types would be my guess,” says Hongkui Zeng, who works on the atlas at the Allen Institute.
***
"For now, at least, many researchers are content to embrace the dizzying complexity of the task at hand. Zlatic takes some comfort in the fact that she is starting to see repeating patterns in how neurons in her fly larvae arrange themselves and how they create feedback loops. This modular arrangement, she says, could make the going easier once the team has a finished map. “When you have partial information it looks like a big mess,” she says. “Maybe the most surprising thing is that once you start seeing a relatively complete system, how much sense it makes.'”
Comment: Mapping small circuits is a fine beginning but it still misses the nuances of the individual neuron and its specific input, the way it controls its synapse output, the size and speed of the ion charge. The fMRI studies give general ideas, but the nitty-gritty is at a layer below the circuits being outlined. Note my bolds above. Neural circuits of brains show design in a way no other biological organ can.
Brain complexity: methylation of DNA type cells
by David Turell , Thursday, August 10, 2017, 22:32 (2662 days ago) @ David Turell
In epipgenetic alterations methylation modifies DNA and specific genes. This is now studied in human and animal brains, demonstrating, in part, the plasticity of the brain, by modifying neurons in addition to adding neurons and new circuits:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-08-kinds-brain-cells-revealed.html
"Salk Institute and University of California San Diego scientists have, for the first time, profiled chemical modifications of DNA molecules in individual neurons, giving the most detailed information yet on what makes one brain cell different from its neighbor. This is a critical step in beginning to identify how many types of neurons exist, which has eluded neuroscientists but could lead to a dramatically better understanding about brain development and dysfunction. Each cell's methylome—the pattern of chemical markers made up of methyl groups that stud its DNA—gave a distinct readout that helped the Salk team sort neurons into subtypes.
***
"'Our research shows that we can clearly define neuronal types based on their methylomes," says Margarita Behrens, a Salk senior staff-scientist and co-senior author of the new paper. "This opens up the possibility of understanding what makes two neurons—that sit in the same brain region and otherwise look similar—behave differently."
"The team began their work on both mouse and human brains by focusing on the frontal cortex, the area of the brain responsible for complex thinking, personality, social behaviors and decision making, among other things. They isolated 3,377 neurons from the frontal cortex of mice and 2,784 neurons from the frontal cortex of a deceased 25-year-old human.
***
"Neurons from the mouse frontal cortex, they found, clustered into 16 subtypes based on methylation patterns, while neurons from the human frontal cortex were more diverse and formed 21 subtypes. Inhibitory neurons—those that provide stop signals for messages in the brain—showed more conserved methylation patterns between mice and humans compared to excitatory neurons. The study also identified unique human neuron subtypes that had never been defined before. These results open the door to a deeper understanding of what sets human brains apart from those of other animals. (my bold)
"'This study opens a new window into the incredible diversity of brain cells," says Eran Mukamel of the UC San Diego Department of Cognitive Science, a co-senior author of the work.
"Next, the researchers plan to expand their methylome study to look at more parts of the brain, and more brains.
"'There are hundreds, if not thousands, of types of brain cells that have different functions and behaviors and it's important to know what all these types are to understand how the brain works,'"
Comment: Note the bold. The human brain is more plastic than a mouse brain, based on those findings. Not surprising. Considering the functional capacities of our brain, as we develop new conceptual ways of using our brain, the plasticity ability is of prime importance. Compare us to Heidelbergus: they had shelter clothing, and stone tools, not much more. The Neanderthals added art, ceremonies, but nothing like sapiens accomplishments even 50-70,000 years ago. Size first, use second.
Brain complexity: synapse signal controls found
by David Turell , Thursday, August 17, 2017, 18:23 (2655 days ago) @ David Turell
Neurons transmit to each other through synapses using glutamine and dopamine as chemical controls:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-08-discovery-neuron
"Neurons communicate with one another by releasing chemicals called neurotransmitters, such as dopamine and glutamate, into the small space between two neurons that is known as a synapse. Inside neurons, neurotransmitters awaiting release are housed in small sacs called synaptic vesicles.
"'Our findings demonstrate, for the first time, that neurons can change how much dopamine they release as a function of their overall activity. When this mechanism doesn't work properly, it could lead to profound effects on health," explained the study's senior author Zachary Freyberg, M.D., Ph.D., who recently joined Pitt as an assistant professor of psychiatry and cell biology. Freyberg initiated the research while at Columbia University.
"When the researchers triggered the dopamine neurons to fire, the neurons' vesicles began to release dopamine as expected. But then the team noticed something surprising: additional content was loaded into the vesicles before they had the opportunity to empty. Subsequent experiments showed that this activity-induced vesicle loading was due to an increase in acidity levels inside the vesicles.
***
"The team then demonstrated that the increase in acidity was driven by a transport channel in the cell's surface, which allowed an influx of negatively charged glutamate ions to enter the neuron, thus increasing its acidity. Genetically removing the transporter in fruit flies and mice made the animals less responsive to amphetamine, a drug that exerts its effect by stimulating dopamine release from neurons.
"'In this case, glutamate is not acting as a neurotransmitter. Instead it is functioning primarily as a source of negative charge, which is being used by these vesicles in a really clever way to manipulate vesicle acidity and therefore change their dopamine content," Freyberg said. "This calls into question the whole textbook model of vesicles as having fixed amounts of single neurotransmitters. It appears that these vesicles contain both dopamine and glutamate, and dynamically modify their content to match the conditions of the cell as needed.'"
Comment: This is a typical biological setup, with balancing chemicals controlling the levels of signal, much like feedback loops, which may be eventually found here. This cannot develop by chance but must be developed by design all at once.
Brain complexity: synapse signal controls found
by David Turell , Friday, March 08, 2019, 21:22 (2087 days ago) @ David Turell
A feedback loop mechanism is found:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-03-scientists-brain.
"The release of neurotransmitters and hormones in the body is tightly controlled by complex protein machinery embedded in cell membranes.
***
"pharmacologist Heidi Hamm, Ph.D., and her colleagues reported the first animal model of an important feedback mechanism, essentially a "shut-off valve" for neurotransmitter and hormone release through SNARE complex-mediated membrane fusion.
"In a paper featured on the cover of the journal Science Signaling, the researchers reported that when they disabled the shut-off valve in nerve cells in the brains of mice through genetic manipulations, the animals exhibited significant deficits in motor coordination, cognitive and other behaviors.
"During her career she has made several important discoveries about G-protein coupled receptors (GPCRs). Embedded in the membranes of nearly every cell, GPCRs are the most common conduit for signaling pathways found in nature. Two-thirds of all drugs target them.
"GPCRs are turned on and off by G-proteins inside the cell. G proteins consist of two subunits—alpha and beta/gamma—both of which can stimulate independent signaling pathways.
"Several years ago, Hamm and colleagues including Simon Alford, Ph.D., at the University of Illinois at Chicago, showed how the beta/gamma subunit of an inhibitory G protein prevents intracellular vesicles containing neurotransmitters from fusing to the cell membrane and spilling their contents into the extracellular space between nerve cells—the synapse.
"It does this in two ways: by preventing the flow of calcium through "calcium channels" from allowing vesicles to fuse to the membrane and by "switching off" the SNARE receptor complex.
***
"Using a genome editing technology called CRISPR/Cas9, Zack Zurawski, then a graduate student in Hamm's lab, introduced a mutation that didn't let the beta-gamma subunit turn off the SNARE machinery anymore. The mutation turned on the "spigot."
"'It's amazing that it worked the first time," Hamm said. "It used to take two or three years to make such a mouse and we did it in three months. It was really a great achievement."
"Zurawski, the first author on the paper, has since earned his Ph.D. and is conducting post-doctoral research at the University of Illinois with Alford, a senior co-author.
"The researchers also discovered that the two mechanisms for preventing vesicle fusion, one that acts on calcium channels and the other on SNARE, are synergistic. Blocking both results in a more powerful inhibition of neurotransmitter release than blocking one or the other separately."
Comment: this is standard operating procedure. Feedback loops control most everything. Feedback loops MUST be designed into use all at once. They cannot be made stepwise by hunt and peck chance.
Brain complexity: multiple neuron types
by David Turell , Monday, November 06, 2017, 20:35 (2574 days ago) @ David Turell
Advanced research has found that the brain contains many different types of neurons. No two may be the same increasing the possible complexity many, many times:
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/50700/title/Advancing-Techniques-...
"For years, neurons in the brain were assumed to all carry the same genome, with differences in cell type stemming from epigenetic, transcriptional, and posttranscriptional differences in how that genome was expressed. But in the past decade, researchers have recognized an incredible amount of genomic diversity, in addition to other types of cellular variation that can affect function. Indeed, the human brain contains approximately 100 billion neurons, and we now know that there may be almost as many unique cell types.
***
"Recent technological advances have enabled a highly resolved characterization of the extent of cellular diversity in the brain, showing that there is far more heterogeneity within a given cell type than previously appreciated.
"Research has also begun to examine how somatic mosaicism might drive functional differences in individual neurons. Such neuronal diversity may help explain the origin of personality in humans and interindividual behavioral variations in other animals. Anecdotally, siblings, even monozygotic twins, often have remarkably different personalities even at young ages, despite sharing genes and environments. Diversification of neurons arising from somatic gene mutations or subtle molecular and environmental differences may help explain the origin of cognitive and behavioral individuality. The findings thus far highlight the importance of moving away from a blanket definition of “cell types” that are assumed to behave in a stereotyped manner toward a more nuanced view of neurons that includes the multidimensional combination of transcriptome, epigenome, and genome when attempting to understand the impact of a given cell state.
***
"Of the 100 billion or so neurons in the human brain, there may be no two that are alike. Recent advances in single-cell omics and other techniques are revealing variation at genomic, epigenomic, transcriptomic, and posttranscriptomic levels. Such diversity can arise at all stages of development and into adulthood. In the case of genetic changes that are passed on to daughter cells, the stage at which mutations occur will dictate their frequency in the brain. Researchers are now working hard to catalog every cell type within the human brain, and understand how differences among them may underlie variation in neuronal function. There are early hints that this mosaicism may contribute to personality and behavioral differences among individuals, as well as to various neurological or psychiatric disorders.
***
"While it was traditionally believed that every cell in the body contained identical genetic material, recent evidence has revealed that individual neurons actually differ significantly due to somatic DNA mutations and rearrangements, including those caused by the movement of L1 and other retrotransposons. Somatic mutations can occur both during development and in adulthood. Early progenitor cells that accumulate somatic mutations may give rise to many progeny, which also carry the same mutation, whereas a later progenitor, like an NPC in a neurogenic niche of the adult brain, may only give rise to a few progeny, limiting the spread of that particular mutation. This process could represent a lifelong flexibility of the brain, potentially making it more adaptable to changing demands.
***
"The brain is capable of remarkable remodeling in response to experience. Signals originating from the environment can cause both widespread and localized adaptations. At the level of individual cells, structure and function are continually changing with the environment in a dance of lifelong brain plasticity, and some experiences, such as stress or physical exercise, affect the growth, survival, and fate of newborn neurons in neurogenic regions of the brain.15 Considering that each neuron in the human brain makes 5,000 to 200,000 connections with other neurons, changes at the synapse level could have effects on multiple brain circuits and downstream behavioral or cognitive phenotypes.
***
"Once we begin to consider all of the subtle cell-to-cell variations, it becomes clear that the number of cell types is much greater than ever imagined. In fact, it may be more appropriate to place some cells along a continuum rather than into categories at all.
"Brain cells in particular may be as unique as the people to which they belong. This genetic, molecular, and morphological diversity of the brain leads to functional variation that is likely necessary for the higher-order cognitive processes that are unique to humans."
Comment: This helps explain why we can think the way we do and how the brain can adapt to individual usage creating each unique person.
Brain complexity: multiple neuron types
by dhw, Tuesday, November 07, 2017, 13:45 (2573 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Advanced research has found that the brain contains many different types of neurons. No two may be the same increasing the possible complexity many, many times:
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/50700/title/Advancing-Techniques-...
QUOTE: "Brain cells in particular may be as unique as the people to which they belong. This genetic, molecular, and morphological diversity of the brain leads to functional variation that is likely necessary for the higher-order cognitive processes that are unique to humans."
DAVID’s comment: This helps explain why we can think the way we do and how the brain can adapt to individual usage creating each unique person.
Thank you for this intriguing article. Once again it raises the question of dualism versus materialism. In both cases, we would think differently if our cells were different, but the dualist would presumably argue that the “soul” directs the brain, moulding the billions of neurons to its own predilections, so our cells are different BECAUSE we think differently: thoughts first, cell changes second (the opposite of your contention when it comes to brain expansion). The materialist would argue that it is the cells that decide how we think: cells first, thoughts second.
Brain complexity: multiple neuron types
by David Turell , Tuesday, November 07, 2017, 14:29 (2573 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Advanced research has found that the brain contains many different types of neurons. No two may be the same increasing the possible complexity many, many times:
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/50700/title/Advancing-Techniques-...
QUOTE: "Brain cells in particular may be as unique as the people to which they belong. This genetic, molecular, and morphological diversity of the brain leads to functional variation that is likely necessary for the higher-order cognitive processes that are unique to humans."
DAVID’s comment: This helps explain why we can think the way we do and how the brain can adapt to individual usage creating each unique person.
dhw: Thank you for this intriguing article. Once again it raises the question of dualism versus materialism. In both cases, we would think differently if our cells were different, but the dualist would presumably argue that the “soul” directs the brain, moulding the billions of neurons to its own predilections, so our cells are different BECAUSE we think differently: thoughts first, cell changes second (the opposite of your contention when it comes to brain expansion). The materialist would argue that it is the cells that decide how we think: cells first, thoughts second.
Yes, interesting article, but you comment with the same mistake in theory: the thought process as described in this article alters existing neurons, not making more neurons to make the brain and skull expand. Learning to read shrinks brain!
Brain complexity: multiple neuron types
by dhw, Wednesday, November 08, 2017, 13:03 (2572 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Thank you for this intriguing article. Once again it raises the question of dualism versus materialism. In both cases, we would think differently if our cells were different, but the dualist would presumably argue that the “soul” directs the brain, moulding the billions of neurons to its own predilections, so our cells are different BECAUSE we think differently: thoughts first, cell changes second (the opposite of your contention when it comes to brain expansion). The materialist would argue that it is the cells that decide how we think: cells first, thoughts second.
DAVID: Yes, interesting article, but you comment with the same mistake in theory: the thought process as described in this article alters existing neurons, not making more neurons to make the brain and skull expand. Learning to read shrinks brain!
Once again you are acknowledging that thought changes the brain. If it can shrink the brain by altering existing neurons, why do you think it can’t expand the brain by adding neurons?
Brain complexity: multiple neuron types
by David Turell , Wednesday, November 08, 2017, 14:01 (2572 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Thank you for this intriguing article. Once again it raises the question of dualism versus materialism. In both cases, we would think differently if our cells were different, but the dualist would presumably argue that the “soul” directs the brain, moulding the billions of neurons to its own predilections, so our cells are different BECAUSE we think differently: thoughts first, cell changes second (the opposite of your contention when it comes to brain expansion). The materialist would argue that it is the cells that decide how we think: cells first, thoughts second.
DAVID: Yes, interesting article, but you comment with the same mistake in theory: the thought process as described in this article alters existing neurons, not making more neurons to make the brain and skull expand. Learning to read shrinks brain!
dhw: Once again you are acknowledging that thought changes the brain. If it can shrink the brain by altering existing neurons, why do you think it can’t expand the brain by adding neurons?
Because expansion, as shown by the fossils is 200cc at a time and involves a binary process, expanding the bony skull. Shrinkage is at the scale of epigenetic modification, while the enlargements are speciation.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Tuesday, November 14, 2017, 18:32 (2566 days ago) @ David Turell
The brain has to pick out the correct neurons, expands, and as the new task centers are organized shrinks back to original size:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-11-brain-cells-task-dont.html
"'Brain matter volume increases in the initial stages of learning, and then renormalizes partially or completely," says first author Elisabeth Wenger, a neuroscientist at the Max Planck Institute for Human Development in Berlin. "This seems to be an effective way for the brain to first explore the possibilities, call in different structures and cell types, select the best ones, and get rid of the ones that are no longer needed."
"She describes brain cells as actors auditioning for a movie for which the brain is the director: The brain calls in the candidates by forming new cells, and this causes it to grow macroscopically in volume. The brain then tries out different functions for them—seeing which can store or carry the information best. Based on which cells function most efficiently, the brain dismisses the other candidates or assigns them to different roles.
"As evidence, the researchers discuss a study in which right-handed people learned to write and draw with their left hands. After a month, their brain volume had increased, but three weeks later it was nearly back to normal. Researchers observed similar results in other studies in which monkeys learned to use a rake to retrieve food or rats learned to differentiate between sounds.
"Wenger and her co-authors, including Claudio Brozzoli, Ulman Lindenberger, and Martin Lövdén, were surprised by how often the phenomenon of brain expansion and renormalization has been recorded already in animal studies, and predict it applies to human brains too. "We are definitely not the first to suggest or introduce the expansion-renormalization model," says Wenger. "I think we are just the ones who are now promoting it in the field of grey matter volume changes in humans."
"The researchers believe that this theory should influence how researchers design neural studies. "In a way, it is now apparent that the typical design is just insufficient to show the full scope of changes that happen," Wenger says. "This theory calls for study designs with more measurement time points to properly display changes in brain volume.'"
Comment: The cerebrospinal fluid around the brain allows for this temporary expansion. Learning to write with the opposite hand is more complex than learning how to make and throw a spear. This answers the question of expansion of hominin brains. They also had a fluid area around their smaller brains which had room to expand and contract without changing skull size. Time to abandon your unsupported theory about need driving a new permanent brain size.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Wednesday, November 15, 2017, 13:03 (2565 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: The brain has to pick out the correct neurons, expands, and as the new task centers are organized shrinks back to original size:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-11-brain-cells-task-dont.html
QUOTE: "'Brain matter volume increases in the initial stages of learning, and then renormalizes partially or completely," says first author Elisabeth Wenger, a neuroscientist at the Max Planck Institute for Human Development in Berlin. "This seems to be an effective way for the brain to first explore the possibilities, call in different structures and cell types, select the best ones, and get rid of the ones that are no longer needed."
DAVID’s comment: The cerebrospinal fluid around the brain allows for this temporary expansion. Learning to write with the opposite hand is more complex than learning how to make and throw a spear. This answers the question of expansion of hominin brains. They also had a fluid area around their smaller brains which had room to expand and contract without changing skull size. Time to abandon your unsupported theory about need driving a new permanent brain size.
It’s quite extraordinary how we can read the same article and come to diametrically opposed conclusions. First of all, you are the one who keeps emphasizing that hominin brains underwent several jumps in size with a corresponding expansion of the skull. My explanation: the brain expanded and required a bigger skull. It finally reached its optimum size, which seems to be confirmed by these experiments: the brain now expands initially and then returns to its “normal” size, by which time it has rewired itself. You had never mentioned this particular type of expansion before, but that simply provides further proof that the brain expands in response to need. So that must be what happened to the hominins and hominids, until the skull could expand no more.
Secondly, I don’t know why learning to use the opposite hand is “more complex” than learning to make and throw a spear, but in any case all the changes are CAUSED by unfamiliar activities, whether it’s spear-making and throwing, using the opposite hand, or learning to write (the Indian women). It’s crystal clear that the brain responds to needs (or desires), and changes itself accordingly. So it really is time to abandon your unsupported theory about your God expanding the brain BEFORE it could think of new concepts. Concepts activate and change the brain.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Wednesday, November 15, 2017, 14:38 (2565 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID’s comment: The cerebrospinal fluid around the brain allows for this temporary expansion. Learning to write with the opposite hand is more complex than learning how to make and throw a spear. This answers the question of expansion of hominin brains. They also had a fluid area around their smaller brains which had room to expand and contract without changing skull size. Time to abandon your unsupported theory about need driving a new permanent brain size.dhw: It’s quite extraordinary how we can read the same article and come to diametrically opposed conclusions. First of all, you are the one who keeps emphasizing that hominin brains underwent several jumps in size with a corresponding expansion of the skull. My explanation: the brain expanded and required a bigger skull. It finally reached its optimum size, which seems to be confirmed by these experiments: the brain now expands initially and then returns to its “normal” size, by which time it has rewired itself. You had never mentioned this particular type of expansion before, but that simply provides further proof that the brain expands in response to need. So that must be what happened to the hominins and hominids, until the skull could expand no more.
Did you miss or ignore the point that the brain can expand without enlarging the skull! And can shrink back as it accommodates the new complexity of connections, and as we saw in learning to read, it always shrinks back. We have no evidence for continuing expansion (in small steps), only 200cc gaps in the fossils.
dhw: Secondly, I don’t know why learning to use the opposite hand is “more complex” than learning to make and throw a spear, but in any case all the changes are CAUSED by unfamiliar activities, whether it’s spear-making and throwing, using the opposite hand, or learning to write (the Indian women). It’s crystal clear that the brain responds to needs (or desires), and changes itself accordingly. So it really is time to abandon your unsupported theory about your God expanding the brain BEFORE it could think of new concepts. Concepts activate and change the brain.
Again, skipping the knowledge the brain always shrinks back.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Thursday, November 16, 2017, 14:02 (2564 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID’s comment: The cerebrospinal fluid around the brain allows for this temporary expansion. Learning to write with the opposite hand is more complex than learning how to make and throw a spear. This answers the question of expansion of hominin brains. They also had a fluid area around their smaller brains which had room to expand and contract without changing skull size. Time to abandon your unsupported theory about need driving a new permanent brain size.
dhw: It’s quite extraordinary how we can read the same article and come to diametrically opposed conclusions. First of all, you are the one who keeps emphasizing that hominin brains underwent several jumps in size with a corresponding expansion of the skull. My explanation: the brain expanded and required a bigger skull. It finally reached its optimum size, which seems to be confirmed by these experiments: the brain now expands initially and then returns to its “normal” size, by which time it has rewired itself. You had never mentioned this particular type of expansion before, but that simply provides further proof that the brain expands in response to need. So that must be what happened to the hominins and hominids, until the skull could expand no more.
DAVID: Did you miss or ignore the point that the brain can expand without enlarging the skull! And can shrink back as it accommodates the new complexity of connections, and as we saw in learning to read, it always shrinks back. We have no evidence for continuing expansion (in small steps), only 200cc gaps in the fossils.
The brain shrinks back NOW! You have explained above how it is able to expand slightly, but way back in hominin days, you keep telling us the skull expanded, so it must have expanded when the brain couldn’t shrink back enough to be contained within the existing skull.
dhw: Secondly, I don’t know why learning to use the opposite hand is “more complex” than learning to make and throw a spear, but in any case all the changes are CAUSED by unfamiliar activities, whether it’s spear-making and throwing, using the opposite hand, or learning to write (the Indian women). It’s crystal clear that the brain responds to needs (or desires), and changes itself accordingly. So it really is time to abandon your unsupported theory about your God expanding the brain BEFORE it could think of new concepts. Concepts activate and change the brain.
DAVID: Again, skipping the knowledge the brain always shrinks back.
Again, it always shrinks back NOW! The skull has reached its optimum size, and so the brain complexifies instead of expanding. But according to you, the brain and skull DID expand in the good old days of the hominins and hominids. Meanwhile, you keep “skipping” the fact that all the evidence, including this new discovery, makes it clear that the expansion or complexification of the brain is the RESULT of trying to do something new, and THAT is the issue here. So are you now agreeing at last that the brain expands and contracts today as a RESULT of new concepts, and did the same in the old days, but that your God realized then that it was going to expand too much so he popped in and gave our hominid friends 200 cc extra skull to accommodate the expanding brain? In other words, He did NOT give us a bigger brain, but only gave us a bigger skull? I’d have thought it would be simpler to have the different cell communities cooperating as the need arose, but at least this would harmonize with your dualism. (I’m still hoping to return to the compromise between dualism and materialism which may be the key to this issue.)
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Thursday, November 16, 2017, 18:14 (2564 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Did you miss or ignore the point that the brain can expand without enlarging the skull! And can shrink back as it accommodates the new complexity of connections, and as we saw in learning to read, it always shrinks back. We have no evidence for continuing expansion (in small steps), only 200cc gaps in the fossils.dhw: The brain shrinks back NOW! You have explained above how it is able to expand slightly, but way back in hominin days, you keep telling us the skull expanded, so it must have expanded when the brain couldn’t shrink back enough to be contained within the existing skull.
Why are you so surprised at the facts we have! We fully know that the brain can expand to accommodate new learned skills and then shrinks back as it consolidates its new neurons and wiring. All shown in studies I have presented. All in the same skull size! And note that H. sapiens appears to be 300,000 years old, and even though we have learned all sorts of skills and concepts in that time period, our skulls are now slightly smaller! Your concept about the brain forcing the skull to enlarge is totally untenable.
DAVID: Again, skipping the knowledge the brain always shrinks back.
dhw: Again, it always shrinks back NOW! The skull has reached its optimum size, and so the brain complexifies instead of expanding. But according to you, the brain and skull DID expand in the good old days of the hominins and hominids.
Not according to me re' brain and skull. I'm simply repeating the known history of hominin evolution. And how do you know the brain has reached its optimum size? Are you now agreeing with me that this size brain was a goal?
dhw: Meanwhile, you keep “skipping” the fact that all the evidence, including this new discovery, makes it clear that the expansion or complexification of the brain is the RESULT of trying to do something new, and THAT is the issue here.
That is my point. I've skipped nothing as you twist and turn trying to manufacture a theory of brain size growth out of nothing.
dhw:So are you now agreeing at last that the brain expands and contracts today as a RESULT of new concepts, and did the same in the old days,
I've always followed the facts presented. Small degrees of expansion and contraction are allowed by the cerebrospinal fluid layer around the brain, as I've explained before.
dhw: but that your God realized then that it was going to expand too much so he popped in and gave our hominid friends 200 cc extra skull to accommodate the expanding brain? In other words, He did NOT give us a bigger brain, but only gave us a bigger skull?
He expanded both skull container and brain to allow the brain to create more conceptualization as I firmly believe the brain cell communities cannot tell the skull cell communities to get bigger so the brain can expand. Both must happen at once as the 200cc gaps in skull size shown in the fossil record. The same problem involves the female pelvis change in birth canal size to accommodate the new skull size. We are discussing a triple size change, and you think somehow it can easily all happen at once by itself!
dhw: I’d have thought it would be simpler to have the different cell communities cooperating as the need arose, but at least this would harmonize with your dualism. (I’m still hoping to return to the compromise between dualism and materialism which may be the key to this issue.)
Do you want a whole legislative body of cell committees negotiating all the size changes? Much simpler with God in control, or haven't you noticed?
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Friday, November 17, 2017, 14:56 (2563 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: We fully know that the brain can expand to accommodate new learned skills and then shrinks back as it consolidates its new neurons and wiring. All shown in studies I have presented. All in the same skull size!
But that is NOW. We are discussing how and why hominin/hominid brains and skulls expanded in the past.
DAVID: And note that H. sapiens appears to be 300,000 years old, and even though we have learned all sorts of skills and concepts in that time period, our skulls are now slightly
smaller! Your concept about the brain forcing the skull to enlarge is totally untenable.
This is a complete non sequitur. Once again: brains and skulls expanded pre-Homo sapiens, and that is the issue we are discussing.
DAVID: Again, skipping the knowledge the brain always shrinks back.
dhw: Again, it always shrinks back NOW! The skull has reached its optimum size, and so the brain complexifies instead of expanding. But according to you, the brain and skull DID expand in the good old days of the hominins and hominids.
DAVID: Not according to me re' brain and skull. I'm simply repeating the known history of hominin evolution. And how do you know the brain has reached its optimum size? Are you now agreeing with me that this size brain was a goal?
Are you saying that prior to H.S. the hominin/hominid brain expanded but the skull didn’t? As for optimum size, no, I don’t “know” what will happen in the next thousand million years, but it seems logical to me that eventually brain, skull and body must find a workable equilibrium. And I’m not saying this size brain was a goal. I’m saying that if brain and skull had continued to grow indefinitely, we would have been in trouble. In my hypothesis, the cell communities adapt in order to find the right solution to such problems.
dhw: Meanwhile, you keep “skipping” the fact that all the evidence, including this new discovery, makes it clear that the expansion or complexification of the brain is the RESULT of trying to do something new, and THAT is the issue here.
DAVID: That is my point. I've skipped nothing as you twist and turn trying to manufacture a theory of brain size growth out of nothing.
My hypothesis is not “out of nothing”. It is that the growth results from the effort to implement new concepts, just as muscles expand with exercise. I thought your point was that your God expanded hominin/hominid brains and skulls before brains came up with their new concepts, as below:
DAVID: He expanded both skull container and brain to allow the brain to create more conceptualization as I firmly believe the brain cell communities cannot tell the skull cell communities to get bigger so the brain can expand. Both must happen at once as the 200cc gaps in skull size shown in the fossil record.
Back you go to your nebulous “allow”. Once again you have the physical brain creating concepts (which is fine with me if you are a materialist), whereas you have spent years arguing that the brain is only a receiver and it is the “soul” that creates concepts. But whichever it is (and I believe a compromise is possible), the brain cells in my hypothesis do NOT tell the skull to expand SO THAT the brain can get bigger. The brain cells expand with the effort of implementing new concepts, and the skull cells respond by adapting to the new size brain. This would only have been necessary when the capacity was not great enough to contain the expanded brain cell community, and it follows precisely the same process as all forms of adaptation: the cell communities change their structure in order to cope with new demands. The structure does not change in anticipation of new demands.
dhw:So are you now agreeing at last that the brain expands and contracts today as a RESULT of new concepts, and did the same in the old days?
DAVID: I've always followed the facts presented. Small degrees of expansion and contraction are allowed by the cerebrospinal fluid layer around the brain, as I've explained before.
No problem. The problem arises when there are large degrees of expansion, as above, pre HS. From your evasive answer I presume you do now agree that the brain expands and contracts today as a RESULT of new concepts, and did the same in the old days.
DAVID: Do you want a whole legislative body of cell committees negotiating all the size changes? Much simpler with God in control, or haven't you noticed?
But even your God in control would have to ensure that the cell communities worked together. Much simpler if he gave them the ability to do so than if he had to preprogramme or personally engineer every single body change!
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Friday, November 17, 2017, 18:16 (2563 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: But that is NOW. We are discussing how and why hominin/hominid brains and skulls expanded in the past.
DAVID: And note that H. sapiens appears to be 300,000 years old, and even though we have learned all sorts of skills and concepts in that time period, our skulls are now slightly smaller! Your concept about the brain forcing the skull to enlarge is totally untenable.
dhw: This is a complete non sequitur. Once again: brains and skulls expanded pre-Homo sapiens, and that is the issue we are discussing.
Don't you think the brain mechanisms of the past are the same as we see in H. sapiens now? Of course they are. Why should they change as they evolve?
DAVID: Not according to me re' brain and skull. I'm simply repeating the known history of hominin evolution. And how do you know the brain has reached its optimum size? Are you now agreeing with me that this size brain was a goal?
dhw: Are you saying that prior to H.S. the hominin/hominid brain expanded but the skull didn’t?
I'm simply saying that the brain is surrounded by a roughly one centimeter layer of cerebrospinal fluid. This allows for transient expansion and contraction of the brain as it absorbs new processes. There is no need for Habilis to expand its skull as it learns to throw a spear.
dhw: As for optimum size, no, I don’t “know” what will happen in the next thousand million years, but it seems logical to me that eventually brain, skull and body must find a workable equilibrium. And I’m not saying this size brain was a goal. I’m saying that if brain and skull had continued to grow indefinitely, we would have been in trouble. In my hypothesis, the cell communities adapt in order to find the right solution to such problems.
Looking a elephant brain size, I don't know if humans could not grow a bigger skull and brain so although history suggests we are the end as we are, it may not be so.
dhw: Meanwhile, you keep “skipping” the fact that all the evidence, including this new discovery, makes it clear that the expansion or complexification of the brain is the RESULT of trying to do something new, and THAT is the issue here.
DAVID: That is my point. I've skipped nothing as you twist and turn trying to manufacture a theory of brain size growth out of nothing.
Please reread this exact current history from me:
DAVID: And note that H. sapiens appears to be 300,000 years old, and even though we have learned all sorts of skills and concepts in that time period, our skulls are now slightly smaller! Your concept about the brain forcing the skull to enlarge is totally untenable.
DAVID: He expanded both skull container and brain to allow the brain to create more conceptualization as I firmly believe the brain cell communities cannot tell the skull cell communities to get bigger so the brain can expand. Both must happen at once as the 200cc gaps in skull size shown in the fossil record.dhw: Back you go to your nebulous “allow”. Once again you have the physical brain creating concepts (which is fine with me if you are a materialist), whereas you have spent years arguing that the brain is only a receiver and it is the “soul” that creates concepts.
Totally beside the point. I'm still with the soul which you should understand from past discussion. I don't need to rewrite it every time.
dhw: The brain cells expand with the effort of implementing new concepts, and the skull cells respond by adapting to the new size brain. This would only have been necessary when the capacity was not great enough to contain the expanded brain cell community, and it follows precisely the same process as all forms of adaptation: the cell communities change their structure in order to cope with new demands. The structure does not change in anticipation of new demands.
This does not explain 200cc jumps.
dhw:So are you now agreeing at last that the brain expands and contracts today as a RESULT of new concepts, and did the same in the old days?
DAVID: I've always followed the facts presented. Small degrees of expansion and contraction are allowed by the cerebrospinal fluid layer around the brain, as I've explained before.
dhw: No problem. The problem arises when there are large degrees of expansion, as above, pre HS. From your evasive answer I presume you do now agree that the brain expands and contracts today as a RESULT of new concepts, and did the same in the old days.
Of course, which doesn't explain 200 cc jumps in size.
DAVID: Do you want a whole legislative body of cell committees negotiating all the size changes? Much simpler with God in control, or haven't you noticed?dhw: But even your God in control would have to ensure that the cell communities worked together. Much simpler if he gave them the ability to do so than if he had to preprogramme or personally engineer every single body change!
Why do you not like God in control all the time? Doe3s He need rest?
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Saturday, November 18, 2017, 01:17 (2563 days ago) @ David Turell
A new paper on expanding with new skills and then shrinking as the brain reorganizes its newly developed region:
https://www.livescience.com/60967-brain-cells-learning-pruning.html?utm_source=ls-newsl...
"Every time you learn a skill, new cells burst to life in your brain. Then, one after another, those cells die off as your brain figures out which ones it really needs.
"In a new opinion paper, published online Nov. 14 in the journal Trends in Cognitive Sciences, researchers proposed that this swelling and shrinking of the brain is a Darwinian process.
"An initial burst of new cells helps the brain deal with new information, according to the paper. Then, the brain works out which of these new cells work best and which are unnecessary, killing off the extras in a survival-of-the-fittest contest. That cull leaves behind only the cells the brain needs to most efficiently maintain what it has learned, the paper said.
***
"Researchers have long known that brains change in response to learning. A classic 2003 study, for example, observed major volume differences between the brains of professional and amateur musicians. But the new study is the first time researchers have watched that growth in action over a fairly long timescale, Wenger said, and offered a hypothesis as to how it works.
"Wenger and her colleagues had 15 right-handed study subjects learn, over the course of seven weeks, to write with their left hands. The researchers subjected the enterprising learners to magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) brain scans over the study period. The gray matter in the subjects' motor cortices (regions of the brain involved in muscle movement) grew by an additional 2 to 3 percent before shrinking back to its original size, the researchers found.
***
"Some mix of neurons and synapses — as well as various other cells that help the brain function — bursts into being as the brain learns. And then some of those cells disappear.
That's all the researchers know so far, though it's enough for them to develop their still-somewhat-rough model of expansion and renormalization. In order to deeply understand exactly how the process works, and what kind of cells are being selected for, the researchers need to study the process at a much finer level of detail, they said in the paper. They need to see which cells are appearing and which are disappearing."
Comment: If this process exists now I am sure it was present in the first hominins and carried through all the steps until H. Sapiens appeared 300,000 years ago. It was not invented along the way. And it probably is present in apes and monkeys to a lesser degree and developed further as our ancestors branched off.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Saturday, November 18, 2017, 12:58 (2562 days ago) @ David Turell
As these posts are getting longer and longer, I will condense my response to the salient points:
DAVID: Don't you think the brain mechanisms of the past are the same as we see in H. sapiens now? Of course they are. Why should they change as they evolve?
Yes, I think they are the same. We know that nowadays the brain expands and contracts IN RESPONSE to new concepts. Your second article says: "Researchers have long known that brains change in response to learning.” (My bold) We also know that the brain and skull expanded in our hominin/hominid ancestors. It is therefore not unreasonable to suggest that they did so because they were simply too small to cope with the new tasks required of them.
DAVID: I'm simply saying that the brain is surrounded by a roughly one centimeter layer of cerebrospinal fluid. This allows for transient expansion and contraction of the brain as it absorbs new processes. There is no need for Habilis to expand its skull as it learns to throw a spear.
But his skull DID expand. And we know brains expand in response to new concepts. Homo sapiens’ brain and skull no longer expand, because the process of cell selection described in the second article – which we called rewiring before – makes expansion unnecessary (but see below). Once more: if Habilis’s brain had been able to cope, it would not have expanded, and nor would the skull.
DAVID: And note that H. sapiens appears to be 300,000 years old, and even though we have learned all sorts of skills and concepts in that time period, our skulls are now slightly smaller!
Explained above: the rewiring process makes expansion unnecessary, and I have suggested that the transition from brain and skull expansion to rewiring was the result of the brain and skull reaching their optimum size in relation to the rest of the body. But this latest research shows that expansion still occurs initially as the brain copes with new concepts, and it also explains the shrinkage, as the brain selects. As you say, the mechanisms now are basically the same as in the past; new tasks lead to expansion, but now the expansion gives way to rewiring.
DAVID: This does not explain 200cc jumps.
We have no idea how many jumps there were because, as you rightly say, the fossil record is so sparse. But the fact that there are already so many jumps suggests an ongoing repeat of the same process: new concepts, brain expansion, skull expansion as it adapts to accommodate the expanding brain.
DAVID: Why do you not like God in control all the time? Does He need rest?
Why do you want your God controlling every evolutionary change, lifestyle and natural wonder? What is there for him to watch with interest if he does it all himself? And do you never question the likelihood of your God personally dabbling all these changes, or packing a programme for all of them into the first cells, to be passed on through billions of years to every organism that ever existed?
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Saturday, November 18, 2017, 19:20 (2562 days ago) @ dhw
As these posts are getting longer and longer, I will condense my response to the salient points:
DAVID: Don't you think the brain mechanisms of the past are the same as we see in H. sapiens now? Of course they are. Why should they change as they evolve?
dhw: Yes, I think they are the same. We know that nowadays the brain expands and contracts IN RESPONSE to new concepts.
Are you agreeing that ancient homo brains had the same expansion/contraction mechanism we have now?
dhw:Your second article says: "Researchers have long known that brains change in response to learning.” (My bold) We also know that the brain and skull expanded in our hominin/hominid ancestors. It is therefore not unreasonable to suggest that they did so because they were simply too small to cope with the new tasks required of them.
Not if expansion/contraction occurred in early homos, which you seem to have agreed to.
DAVID: I'm simply saying that the brain is surrounded by a roughly one centimeter layer of cerebrospinal fluid. This allows for transient expansion and contraction of the brain as it absorbs new processes. There is no need for Habilis to expand its skull as it learns to throw a spear.dhw: But his skull DID expand. And we know brains expand in response to new concepts. Homo sapiens’ brain and skull no longer expand, because the process of cell selection described in the second article – which we called rewiring before – makes expansion unnecessary (but see below). Once more: if Habilis’s brain had been able to cope, it would not have expanded, and nor would the skull.
Based on processes we see now your point makes no sense if habilis had the same brain process.
DAVID: And note that H. sapiens appears to be 300,000 years old, and even though we have learned all sorts of skills and concepts in that time period, our skulls are now slightly smaller!dhw: Explained above: the rewiring process makes expansion unnecessary, and I have suggested that the transition from brain and skull expansion to rewiring was the result of the brain and skull reaching their optimum size in relation to the rest of the body. But this latest research shows that expansion still occurs initially as the brain copes with new concepts, and it also explains the shrinkage, as the brain selects. As you say, the mechanisms now are basically the same as in the past; new tasks lead to expansion, but now the expansion gives way to rewiring.
And I'm saying that rewiring occurred in habilis onward.
DAVID: This does not explain 200cc jumps.dhw: We have no idea how many jumps there were because, as you rightly say, the fossil record is so sparse.
We do know from the fossils we have. We went from 400 cc to over 1,200 cc currently generally 200cc at a time. The Neanderthals went to 1,300+ cc!
DAVID: Why do you not like God in control all the time? Does He need rest?dhw: Why do you want your God controlling every evolutionary change, lifestyle and natural wonder? What is there for him to watch with interest if he does it all himself? And do you never question the likelihood of your God personally dabbling all these changes, or packing a programme for all of them into the first cells, to be passed on through billions of years to every organism that ever existed?
why not?
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Sunday, November 19, 2017, 14:39 (2561 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Are you agreeing that ancient homo brains had the same expansion/contraction mechanism we have now?
None of us were around to conduct experiments on the workings of their brains, but ancient brains inside their little skulls may well have contracted and expanded a little bit. However, as the new concepts and tasks multiplied, the brain would have required increased capacity. Any rewiring would have been inadequate to cope. Hence expansion of the brain, and expansion of the skull to accommodate the expanded brain.
At least you seem now to have accepted that the brain expands/rewires IN RESPONSE to new concepts and tasks, which does away with the whole idea that your God expanded it before hominins, hominids and homos came up with their new concepts.
dhw: […] Once more: if Habilis’s brain had been able to cope, it would not have expanded, and nor would the skull.
DAVID: Based on processes we see now your point makes no sense if habilis had the same brain process.
This is like saying that if habilis had the same sized brain as we have, it wouldn’t have needed to expand! The process would have been the same: brain expanding (and possibly contracting) but in habilis’s case the capacity was not large enough to fulfil his needs, so it had to expand, just as would have happened with his predecessors and with later homos in the line leading to us.
dhw: […] As you say, the mechanisms now are basically the same as in the past; new tasks lead to expansion, but now the expansion gives way to rewiring.
DAVID: I'm saying that rewiring occurred in habilis onward.
I don’t know when rewiring started to occur, and nor do you. What we do know is that habilis’s brain was about half the size of ours, and was presumably bigger than that of his ancestors: rewiring would only have worked so long as it could cope with the tasks required, but then there had to be more expansion, which we know occurs IN RESPONSE to need.
DAVID: Why do you not like God in control all the time? Does He need rest?
dhw: Why do you want your God controlling every evolutionary change, lifestyle and natural wonder? What is there for him to watch with interest if he does it all himself? And do you never question the likelihood of your God personally dabbling all these changes, or packing a programme for all of them into the first cells, to be passed on through billions of years to every organism that ever existed?
DAVID: why not?
Because I can’t believe that just a few first cells could encompass and pass on billions of programmes for billions of changes to take place in every different environment for the rest of life’s history (apart from the odd dabble). Why would God NOT want to invent a mechanism that would independently create the spectacle that even you think he watches with interest?
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Sunday, November 19, 2017, 15:29 (2561 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Are you agreeing that ancient homo brains had the same expansion/contraction mechanism we have now?
dhw: None of us were around to conduct experiments on the workings of their brains, but ancient brains inside their little skulls may well have contracted and expanded a little bit. However, as the new concepts and tasks multiplied, the brain would have required increased capacity. Any rewiring would have been inadequate to cope. Hence expansion of the brain, and expansion of the skull to accommodate the expanded brain.
At least you seem now to have accepted that the brain expands/rewires IN RESPONSE to new concepts and tasks, which does away with the whole idea that your God expanded it before hominins, hominids and homos came up with their new concepts.
Once I found the studies, I've always understood that the brain expands to handle new activities and then contacts as the new networks are reorganized. And you have accepted the probability that this mechanism probably goes back to pre-homo times. Skull size thus is constant.
dhw: […] Once more: if Habilis’s brain had been able to cope, it would not have expanded, and nor would the skull.
DAVID: Based on processes we see now your point makes no sense if habilis had the same brain process.dhw: This is like saying that if habilis had the same sized brain as we have, it wouldn’t have needed to expand! The process would have been the same: brain expanding (and possibly contracting) but in habilis’s case the capacity was not large enough to fulfil his needs, so it had to expand, just as would have happened with his predecessors and with later homos in the line leading to us.
Note above no need to expand skull as brain contracts.
dhw: […] As you say, the mechanisms now are basically the same as in the past; new tasks lead to expansion, but now the expansion gives way to rewiring.
DAVID: I'm saying that rewiring occurred in habilis onward.dhw: I don’t know when rewiring started to occur, and nor do you. What we do know is that habilis’s brain was about half the size of ours, and was presumably bigger than that of his ancestors: rewiring would only have worked so long as it could cope with the tasks required, but then there had to be more expansion, which we know occurs IN RESPONSE to need.
You keep forgetting, if you don't know what you don't know and at the habilis state they only needed survival skills, how much need is present? I repeat the point for which I haven't found your answer: Sapiens brain is 300,000 years old and smaller now than before. We are filled with an exponential growth of ideas and concepts that encompass graduate schools of education to teach or understand them. Where is your 'required expansion'?
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Monday, November 20, 2017, 13:58 (2560 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: At least you seem now to have accepted that the brain expands/rewires IN RESPONSE to new concepts and tasks, which does away with the whole idea that your God expanded it before hominins, hominids and homos came up with their new concepts.
DAVID: Once I found the studies, I've always understood that the brain expands to handle new activities and then contacts as the new networks are reorganized. And you have accepted the probability that this mechanism probably goes back to pre-homo times. Skull size thus is constant.
Skull size is constant NOW, but you keep pointing out that brains and skulls expanded by saltations in pre-homo times. What you have recently told us (thank you for all the research you relay to us) is that the sapiens brain expands and then rewires and contracts within the skull as a result of new tasks to be performed. The same process probably took place in the brains of our ancient pre-sapiens forebears, but when rewiring couldn’t cope with any more new tasks, the brain required MORE cells. And so instead of your now discarded hypothesis that God expanded their brains and skulls in ANTICIPATION of new tasks, the brain RESPONDED to the need to fulfil new tasks by expanding, and the skull expanded to house the expanding brain.
DAVID: You keep forgetting, if you don't know what you don't know and at the habilis state they only needed survival skills, how much need is present? I repeat the point for which I haven't found your answer: Sapiens brain is 300,000 years old and smaller now than before. We are filled with an exponential growth of ideas and concepts that encompass graduate schools of education to teach or understand them. Where is your 'required expansion'?
It is the new information/concept/task (i.e. what was not known previously) that requires changes in the brain. Even with your previous hypothesis, the brain DID expand, which implies there WAS a need (remember expansion and rewiring are responses to new tasks). We just don’t know enough about the thoughts of habilis and other pre-sapiens to know what other “needs” (e.g. social) they may have had, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suppose that eventually the brain reached the point at which further expansion would have damaged the balance of the body. And so from then on the “exponential growth of ideas and concepts” results in (not is caused by) increased rewiring, i.e. initial mini-expansion (mirroring the evolutionary process that led to the present one) followed by a return to the “normal” size as the brain implements the new task by new complexification. Shrinkage simply indicates the efficacy of the rewiring process. The last article you posted equated this with natural selection, as the brain discards cells that are no longer needed. So once more the sequence would be: ancient brains and skulls expanded when presumed rewiring couldn’t cope with the influx of new ideas. Expansion beyond current size would have proved impractical for the body. No more expansion now (beyond the mini-scale which soon shrinks back), but only complexification. All in a perfectly logical sequence.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Monday, November 20, 2017, 18:22 (2560 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Once I found the studies, I've always understood that the brain expands to handle new activities and then contacts as the new networks are reorganized. And you have accepted the probability that this mechanism probably goes back to pre-homo times. Skull size thus is constant.
dhw: Skull size is constant NOW, but you keep pointing out that brains and skulls expanded by saltations in pre-homo times. What you have recently told us (thank you for all the research you relay to us) is that the sapiens brain expands and then rewires and contracts within the skull as a result of new tasks to be performed. The same process probably took place in the brains of our ancient pre-sapiens forebears, but when rewiring couldn’t cope with any more new tasks, the brain required MORE cells. And so instead of your now discarded hypothesis that God expanded their brains and skulls in ANTICIPATION of new tasks, the brain RESPONDED to the need to fulfil new tasks by expanding, and the skull expanded to house the expanding brain. (my bold)
Note the bold. I've discarded nothing. Stop putting your confused thinking into what I write.
I have described an enlarge/shrink mechanism that would keep the skull the same size as the brain handles new learning. To review fossil evidence, all we know is Lucy had the same brain size as a chimp, but was bipedal with tree-handling shoulder girdle and longer arms. Each successive group of pre-homos and homos had gaps of larger brain/skull size adding an average 200cc with each more advanced species. The word average is used because different samples of a given level of advancement vary somewhat. Also each larger brain is found with more advanced artifacts. It is an unavoidable conclusion that a larger brain allowed the development of more advanced artifacts. Timing cannot be inverted, as you do.
DAVID: You keep forgetting, if you don't know what you don't know and at the habilis state they only needed survival skills, how much need is present? I repeat the point for which I haven't found your answer: Sapiens brain is 300,000 years old and smaller now than before. We are filled with an exponential growth of ideas and concepts that encompass graduate schools of education to teach or understand them. Where is your 'required expansion'?
dhw:It is the new information/concept/task (i.e. what was not known previously) that requires changes in the brain. Even with your previous hypothesis, the brain DID expand, which implies there WAS a need (remember expansion and rewiring are responses to new tasks). We just don’t know enough about the thoughts of habilis and other pre-sapiens to know what other “needs” (e.g. social) they may have had, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suppose that eventually the brain reached the point at which further expansion would have damaged the balance of the body. And so from then on the “exponential growth of ideas and concepts” results in (not is caused by) increased rewiring, i.e. initial mini-expansion (mirroring the evolutionary process that led to the present one) followed by a return to the “normal” size as the brain implements the new task by new complexification. Shrinkage simply indicates the efficacy of the rewiring process.
This is a non-answer to my paragraph above about the 300,00 year old sapiens brain size. Our large pre-frontal and frontal lobes allowed all the development of civilized knowledge I offered as evidence, very little of which existed 10,000 years ago. The new brain had an advanced ability for thought and subsequent shrinkage, an advanced evolutionary gift from prior homos under God's guidance.
dhw: The last article you posted equated this with natural selection, as the brain discards cells that are no longer needed. So once more the sequence would be: ancient brains and skulls expanded when presumed rewiring couldn’t cope with the influx of new ideas. Expansion beyond current size would have proved impractical for the body. No more expansion now (beyond the mini-scale which soon shrinks back), but only complexification. All in a perfectly logical sequence.
This sounds almost like me, but isn't. Ancient brains could only think of what they were shown to produce, no more. Note the bold. Where did that idea come from? We carry our skull on a smaller body than Neanderthals' burly bodies. Fossil skulls are in general proportional to their frames. The sci-fi literature of future humans with huge globular skulls is a ridiculous extrapolation. My comment from above also applies here. Through complexity complex thought is appreciated, but skull size actually shrinks slightly through an advanced complexification mechanism in our advanced brain. It seems as if this current brain has reached an ideal level of development, an observation which made me make it God's goal.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 14:44 (2559 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: At least you seem now to have accepted that the brain expands/rewires IN RESPONSE to new concepts and tasks, which does away with the whole idea that your God expanded it before hominins, hominids and homos came up with their new concepts.
DAVID: Once I found the studies, I've always understood that the brain expands to handle new activities and then contacts as the new networks are reorganized. And you have accepted the probability that this mechanism probably goes back to pre-homo times. Skull size thus is constant. (dhw’s bold)
dhw (later): [..] And so instead of your now discarded hypothesis that God expanded their brains and skulls in ANTICIPATION of new tasks, the brain RESPONDED to the need to fulfil new tasks by expanding, and the skull expanded to house the expanding brain. (David’s bold)
DAVID: Note the bold. I've discarded nothing. Stop putting your confused thinking into what I write. I have described an enlarge/shrink mechanism that would keep the skull the same size as the brain handles new learning.
Note my bold in the first quote above. We were talking about pre-sapiens, and as you go on to say below, the skull did NOT remain the same size. It only remains the same size NOW. We are trying to explain why it expanded THEN.
DAVID: […] Each successive group of pre-homos and homos had gaps of larger brain/skull size adding an average 200cc with each more advanced species. […] Also each larger brain is found with more advanced artifacts. It is an unavoidable conclusion that a larger brain allowed the development of more advanced artifacts. Timing cannot be inverted, as you do.
There is no inversion, but yes, "the larger brain allowed the development of more advanced artifacts" in the sense that it enabled the initial concept to be implemented. As you have acknowledged, the latest research proves that the brain changes to handle new activities, and so pre-sapiens brains must have expanded when rewiring couldn’t cope. First came the concept of more advanced artefacts, and then the brain expanded through effort to implement the concept - just as now the effort to switch from right to left hand, or to learn to write CAUSED the initial brief expansion followed by rewiring. And so of course each larger brain is found with more advanced artefacts. It was only by adding cells that the brain was able to implement the task it was confronted with. Once again: we know that the brain expands and rewires itself (you call it an “enlarge/shrink mechanism”) AFTER the task is set, so why do you think that your God would have reversed the process and expanded the pre-sapiens brains (and skulls) BEFORE the task was set?
dhw:[…] I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suppose that eventually the brain reached the point at which further expansion would have damaged the balance of the body. And so from then on the “exponential growth of ideas and concepts” results in (not is caused by) increased rewiring, i.e. initial mini-expansion (mirroring the evolutionary process that led to the present one) followed by a return to the “normal” size as the brain implements the new task by new complexification. Shrinkage simply indicates the efficacy of the rewiring process.
DAVID: This is a non-answer to my paragraph above about the 300,000 year old sapiens brain size. Our large pre-frontal and frontal lobes allowed all the development of civilized knowledge I offered as evidence, very little of which existed 10,000 years ago. The new brain had an advanced ability for thought and subsequent shrinkage, an advanced evolutionary gift from prior homos under God's guidance.
Welcome to materialism. You keep telling us that the brain is NOT the source of thought, but now the brain has an advanced ability for thought. It may indeed be the source of thought, but whether it is or not does not alter the proven sequence of concept preceding changes to the brain. The large pre-frontal and frontal lobes mark the optimal size (you agree later: “it seems as if this current brain has reached an ideal level of development”). All our concepts from then on are implemented by rewiring/complexification.
dhw Expansion beyond current size would have proved impractical for the body. No more expansion now (beyond the mini-scale which soon shrinks back), but only complexification. All in a perfectly logical sequence.
DAVID: This sounds almost like me, but isn't. Ancient brains could only think of what they were shown to produce, no more.
Once again: Ancient brains expanded when the ancient homos thought of things their brains could no longer instruct their bodies to produce and use without expanding. Concept first, brain changes second, as proved by modern science.
DAVID: Note the bold. Where did that idea come from? We carry our skull on a smaller body than Neanderthals' burly bodies. Fossil skulls are in general proportional to their frames. The sci-fi literature of future humans with huge globular skulls is a ridiculous extrapolation.
As I indicated in my sentence which you have bolded. Indefinite expansion is "ridiculous". And so the time came when the brain could not expand any more without unbalancing the body, and the complex new thoughts had to be implemented by complexification (apparently preceded by a short-lived mini-expansion, echoing the process back in the old pre-sapiens days).
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 15:33 (2559 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: […] Each successive group of pre-homos and homos had gaps of larger brain/skull size adding an average 200cc with each more advanced species. […] Also each larger brain is found with more advanced artifacts. It is an unavoidable conclusion that a larger brain allowed the development of more advanced artifacts. Timing cannot be inverted, as you do.dhw: There is no inversion, but yes, "the larger brain allowed the development of more advanced artifacts" in the sense that it enabled the initial concept to be implemented. As you have acknowledged, the latest research proves that the brain changes to handle new activities, and so pre-sapiens brains must have expanded when rewiring couldn’t cope. First came the concept of more advanced artefacts, and then the brain expanded through effort to implement the concept -
The fallacy in you thought is my point that the smaller brain does not have the ability to have the concept that causes expansion. Only the larger more complex brain can develop the concept. Survival concepts are limited, and each hominin advance in artifacts show minimal thought advancement until the last 10,000 years of H. Sapiens. A 300,000 year-old sapiens brain had the capacity to develop those thoughts, but took 290,000 years to do it. Your theory is inverted.
dhw: Once again: we know that the brain expands and rewires itself (you call it an “enlarge/shrink mechanism”) AFTER the task is set, so why do you think that your God would have reversed the process and expanded the pre-sapiens brains (and skulls) BEFORE the task was set?
Answered above.
DAVID: This is a non-answer to my paragraph above about the 300,000 year old sapiens brain size. Our large pre-frontal and frontal lobes allowed all the development of civilized knowledge I offered as evidence, very little of which existed 10,000 years ago. The new brain had an advanced ability for thought and subsequent shrinkage, an advanced evolutionary gift from prior homos under God's guidance.dhw: Welcome to materialism. You keep telling us that the brain is NOT the source of thought, but now the brain has an advanced ability for thought.
Remember my shorthand in what I write. It is understood the brain is an instrument for the soul.
dhw: The large pre-frontal and frontal lobes mark the optimal size (you agree later: “it seems as if this current brain has reached an ideal level of development”). All our concepts from then on are implemented by rewiring/complexification.
Exactly. All the concepts appear after the size enlargement. That is the history of our development. Pre-sapiens could not have envisioned what we know now.
dhw Expansion beyond current size would have proved impractical for the body. No more expansion now (beyond the mini-scale which soon shrinks back), but only complexification. All in a perfectly logical sequence.
DAVID: This sounds almost like me, but isn't. Ancient brains could only think of what they were shown to produce, no more.
dhw: Once again: Ancient brains expanded when the ancient homos thought of things their brains could no longer instruct their bodies to produce and use without expanding. Concept first, brain changes second, as proved by modern science.
What is proven is expansion/contraction of the brain with no skull size change. This doesn't answer how sapiens brains work over 300,000 years, which obviously can be applied to pre-sapiens brains.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Wednesday, November 22, 2017, 13:37 (2558 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: […] Each successive group of pre-homos and homos had gaps of larger brain/skull size adding an average 200cc with each more advanced species. […] Also each larger brain is found with more advanced artifacts. It is an unavoidable conclusion that a larger brain allowed the development of more advanced artifacts. Timing cannot be inverted, as you do.
dhw: There is no inversion, but yes, "the larger brain allowed the development of more advanced artifacts" in the sense that it enabled the initial concept to be implemented. As you have acknowledged, the latest research proves that the brain changes to handle new activities, and so pre-sapiens brains must have expanded when rewiring couldn’t cope. First came the concept of more advanced artefacts, and then the brain expanded through effort to implement the concept -
DAVID: The fallacy in you thought is my point that the smaller brain does not have the ability to have the concept that causes expansion. Only the larger more complex brain can develop the concept.
As usual you are conflating two steps into one. We know for a fact that the brain changes when it tries to implement the concept. The concept must come before the effort to implement it. You have simply used the word “develop” instead of “implement”. In concrete terms: if the concept of learning to write CAUSED the brain to change in the course of implementation, it is illogical to assume that the brain had to change before habilis had the concept of making tools. (Though in fact it would have been immediate pre-habilis that had the concept, and that is why habilis developed a bigger brain.)
DAVID: Survival concepts are limited, and each hominin advance in artifacts show minimal thought advancement until the last 10,000 years of H. Sapiens. A 300,000 year-old sapiens brain had the capacity to develop those thoughts, but took 290,000 years to do it. Your theory is inverted.
See above for your own inversion of the theory. What point are you trying to make with regard to each hominin advance in brain size? Are you saying there was no reason for them to expand, and there was no progress made? From no tools to flints to spears, to use of fire, to who knows what social advancements – these would all explain the successive expansions as concept led to implementation. And once the new concept is made reality, it serves as the basis for more new concepts, and hence further expansion until the point is reached when further expansion becomes impractical.
You keep harping on about 300,000 years and 290,000 years. The exact figures are not known, but bigger-brained Neanderthals are believed to been around 200,000 years ago, and interbred with sapiens. They are now considered to have been very sophisticated, so how “minimal” is minimal advancement up to 10,000 years go? In due course, yes, there was a leap in thought development, but you can hardly claim that it was due to brain expansion if the brain had been the same size for 290,000 years! So please give us your theory as to why, according to you, sapiens didn’t use his brain capacity for 290,000 years.
Meanwhile, let me make a suggestion. Everything must have an origin, and all progress is made by individual discoveries. It only takes ONE human to transform the way of life of all humans by an act of invention. Then others may build on that act of invention, and develop it still further. I have no idea how much progress was made during the 290,000 years, but discoveries and inventions are what have transformed the human world. And the same applies to thought about the world. Someone asks: “How did we get here?” And then more and more people ask the same, and thought builds on thought. (In passing: whether those thoughts and inventions are engendered by the “soul” you believe in, or by the chemicals that materialists believe to be the source, makes no difference to the argument. The soul or the chemicals engender the thoughts that once led to expansion but now lead to complexification.) And so if there was a sudden leap forward 10,000 years ago, it could only have been because certain individual souls or certain individual brain cell communities came up with new ideas. The final response to your inversion of the theory comes next:
dhw: The large pre-frontal and frontal lobes mark the optimal size (you agree later: “it seems as if this current brain has reached an ideal level of development”). All our concepts from then on are implemented by rewiring/complexification.
DAVID: Exactly. All the concepts appear after the size enlargement. That is the history of our development. [...]
You seem to think concepts only began with sapiens. Of course all the concepts that appeared after the brain had stopped expanding appeared after the brain had stopped expanding! Instead of expanding the brain as in pre-sapiens time, they now make it rewire itself because it couldn't go on expanding indefinitely! The concept always precedes the implementation, and modern science has proved that the brain does not change until it starts to implement the concept. Why do you keep denying the findings you yourself have drawn our attention to?
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Wednesday, November 22, 2017, 15:54 (2558 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: The fallacy in you thought is my point that the smaller brain does not have the ability to have the concept that causes expansion. Only the larger more complex brain can develop the concept.
dhw:In concrete terms: if the concept of learning to write CAUSED the brain to change in the course of implementation, it is illogical to assume that the brain had to change before habilis had the concept of making tools.
Using what we know about sapiens, a brain learns something new by slightly enlarging and then shrinks as it reorganizes. No permanent brain enlargement.
dhw: (Though in fact it would have been immediate pre-habilis that had the concept, and that is why habilis developed a bigger brain.)
Whew! Pre-habilis says I can envision throwing a spear but I need a bigger brain to figure it out. Poof! "My brain is exploding" and now I am a habilis!
DAVID: Survival concepts are limited, and each hominin advance in artifacts show minimal thought advancement until the last 10,000 years of H. Sapiens. A 300,000 year-old sapiens brain had the capacity to develop those thoughts, but took 290,000 years to do it. Your theory is inverted.dhw: See above for your own inversion of the theory. What point are you trying to make with regard to each hominin advance in brain size? Are you saying there was no reason for them to expand, and there was no progress made? From no tools to flints to spears, to use of fire, to who knows what social advancements
Hunter-gatherers (as sapiens) have very simple survival skills and do not use their brains as we do. Hominins were little different. There was not much brain needed to be used. Social interaction is in small groups of 30-50 individuals more or less. Hardly any degree of complexity.
dhw: You keep harping on about 300,000 years and 290,000 years. The exact figures are not known, but bigger-brained Neanderthals are believed to been around 200,000 years ago, and interbred with sapiens. They are now considered to have been very sophisticated, so how “minimal” is minimal advancement up to 10,000 years go?
Neanderthal 'sophistication' compared to what? Made jewelry, buried dead, wore hides , lived in caves. Before the final Neanderthals died out, our sapiens were drawing pictures in caves (starting about 40,000 years ago), but no further advanced at that time. Neanderthal brains were bigger but obviously less complex.The 300,000 years is something you are meticulously avoiding. Our big brain appeared back then, but mostly unused until 10,000 years ago. Why so big if it is driven by concepts of pre-sapiens who can't implement them, but supposedly thought of them before the size appeared? It took 290,000 years to learn how to use our big brain.
dhw: In due course, yes, there was a leap in thought development, but you can hardly claim that it was due to brain expansion if the brain had been the same size for 290,000 years! So please give us your theory as to why, according to you, sapiens didn’t use his brain capacity for 290,000 years.
Had to learn how to use it.
dhw: And so if there was a sudden leap forward 10,000 years ago, it could only have been because certain individual souls or certain individual brain cell communities came up with new ideas.
Agreed. All thinking individuals contribute to our progress. We educate each other.
dhw: You seem to think concepts only began with sapiens. Of course all the concepts that appeared after the brain had stopped expanding appeared after the brain had stopped expanding! Instead of expanding the brain as in pre-sapiens time, they now make it rewire itself because it couldn't go on expanding indefinitely! The concept always precedes the implementation, and modern science has proved that the brain does not change until it starts to implement the concept. Why do you keep denying the findings you yourself have drawn our attention to?
Lucy had concepts. Very simple ones. Sapiens have very complex ones, using a much more complex brain. Concepts change the brain. But sapiens never enlarge their skull. In fact over 300,000 years it is slightly smaller. Therefore neither did habilis or erectus using the same enlargement/shrinkage technique. God enlarged it for them in 200cc jumps to reach the next stage of human evolution and thought capacity. Your convoluted inverted theory is to avoid God's agency.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Thursday, November 23, 2017, 14:09 (2557 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: … if the concept of learning to write CAUSED the brain to change in the course of implementation, it is illogical to assume that the brain had to change before habilis had the concept of making tools.
DAVID: Using what we know about sapiens, a brain learns something new by slightly enlarging and then shrinks as it reorganizes. No permanent brain enlargement.
Round we go. There is no permanent enlargement in sapiens because further enlargement would be impractical. That is why reorganization/complexification took over from pre-sapiens enlargement.
DAVID: Whew! Pre-habilis says I can envision throwing a spear but I need a bigger brain to figure it out. Poof! "My brain is exploding" and now I am a habilis!
Not to figure it out! To implement it! Once again: If the brain changes now (complexification) through implementation of new concepts (e.g. learning to write), it would also have changed then (enlargement) through implementation of new concepts (learning how to make the spear figured out beforehand.)
dhw: What point are you trying to make with regard to each hominin advance in brain size?
DAVID: Hunter-gatherers (as sapiens) have very simple survival skills and do not use their brains as we do. Hominins were little different. There was not much brain needed to be used. Social interaction is in small groups of 30-50 individuals more or less. Hardly any degree of complexity.
I can’t follow your reasoning. Are you now saying each enlargement was without any purpose since pre-sapiens and early sapiens didn’t make much progress? I would say spears represent progress over bare-handed hunting – enough to cause brain expansion. Why would your God bother to expand pre-sapiens brains if there was no progress?
dhw: You keep harping on about 300,000 years and 290,000 years. The exact figures are not known, but bigger-brained Neanderthals are believed to been around 200,000 years ago, and interbred with sapiens. They are now considered to have been very sophisticated, so how “minimal” is minimal advancement up to 10,000 years go?
DAVID: Neanderthal 'sophistication' compared to what? Made jewelry, buried dead, wore hides , lived in caves.
Apart from “lived in caves”, which doesn’t require any new concept, you now have the birth of aesthetics, perhaps the birth of ritual, and a wide array of skills involved in hunting and tailoring.
DAVID: Before the final Neanderthals died out, our sapiens were drawing pictures in caves (starting about 40,000 years ago), but no further advanced at that time. Neanderthal brains were bigger but obviously less complex.The 300,000 years is something you are meticulously avoiding. Our big brain appeared back then, but mostly unused until 10,000 years ago. Why so big if it is driven by concepts of pre-sapiens who can't implement them, but supposedly thought of them before the size appeared? It took 290,000 years to learn how to use our big brain.
300,000 years or so ago the brain reached the size beyond which expansion would have been impractical. Whatever NEW concepts then came to mind would have been implemented by complexification. I don’t buy your downgrading of jewelry, burial, clothing as insignificant, and drawing pictures 40,000 years ago is an amazing use of the brain, so it is absurd to say we didn’t use it until 10,000 years ago. But I accept that there was a leap forward.
dhw So please give us your theory as to why, according to you, sapiens didn’t use his brain capacity for 290,000 years.
DAVID: Had to learn how to use it.
I suggest he was using it all the time, and I have offered you an explanation of the leap:
dhw: And so if there was a sudden leap forward 10,000 years ago, it could only have been because certain individual souls or certain individual brain cell communities came up with new ideas.
DAVID: Agreed. All thinking individuals contribute to our progress. We educate each other.
So that’s settled! Slow progress until a few specially clever individuals caused the leap. Except that you still can’t bear the thought that this is a perfectly natural progression.
DAVID: Lucy had concepts. Very simple ones. Sapiens have very complex ones, using a much more complex brain. Concepts change the brain. But sapiens never enlarge their skull. In fact over 300,000 years it is slightly smaller. Therefore neither did habilis or erectus using the same enlargement/shrinkage technique.
You agree that sapiens brain and skull could not enlarge any further without serious physical problems. That is why sapiens complexification (with resultant shrinkage) took over from pre-sapiens enlargement.
DAVID: God enlarged it for them in 200cc jumps to reach the next stage of human evolution and thought capacity. Your convoluted inverted theory is to avoid God's agency.
You agree that the brain does not change until it starts to IMPLEMENT new concepts (proven by modern science: learning to write), but now you say your God had to change the brain BEFORE pre-sapiens could think up the concepts whose implementation was what changed the brain! And you offer this contradictory inversion just because you want your God to dabble every branch and stage of the evolutionary bush, and you can’t bear the thought that he might have set up a mechanism whereby organisms work out their own ways of surviving and improving.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Thursday, November 23, 2017, 16:07 (2557 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Thursday, November 23, 2017, 16:21
DAVID: Using what we know about sapiens, a brain learns something new by slightly enlarging and then shrinks as it reorganizes. No permanent brain enlargement.
dhw: Round we go. There is no permanent enlargement in sapiens because further enlargement would be impractical. That is why reorganization/complexification took over from pre-sapiens enlargement.
I proposed that enlargement/shrinkage exists in all pre-homos. You agreed. Remember?
DAVID: Whew! Pre-habilis says I can envision throwing a spear but I need a bigger brain to figure it out. Poof! "My brain is exploding" and now I am a habilis!dhw: Not to figure it out! To implement it! Once again: If the brain changes now (complexification) through implementation of new concepts (e.g. learning to write), it would also have changed then (enlargement) through implementation of new concepts (learning how to make the spear figured out beforehand.)
What if pre-habilis couldn't envision a spear? Only habilis had the concept and implemented it, all with the same brain. That is the only way to interpret artifacts.
dhw: Why would your God bother to expand pre-sapiens brains if there was no progress?
Each brain enlargement allowed progress beyond the last stage.
dhw So please give us your theory as to why, according to you, sapiens didn’t use his brain capacity for 290,000 years.
DAVID: Had to learn how to use it.
I suggest he was using it all the time, and I have offered you an explanation of the leap:
dhw: And so if there was a sudden leap forward 10,000 years ago, it could only have been because certain individual souls or certain individual brain cell communities came up with new ideas.
DAVID: Agreed. All thinking individuals contribute to our progress. We educate each other.
dhw: So that’s settled! Slow progress until a few specially clever individuals caused the leap. Except that you still can’t bear the thought that this is a perfectly natural progression.
Of course a perfectly natural progression with no permanent brain enlargement.
DAVID: Lucy had concepts. Very simple ones. Sapiens have very complex ones, using a much more complex brain. Concepts change the brain. But sapiens never enlarge their skull. In fact over 300,000 years it is slightly smaller. Therefore neither did habilis or erectus using the same enlargement/shrinkage technique.dhw: You agree that sapiens brain and skull could not enlarge any further without serious physical problems. That is why sapiens complexification (with resultant shrinkage) took over from pre-sapiens enlargement.
All pre-homos had a degree of complexification! This is why the progression of hominins had a 200cc increase with each new stage of evolutionary development. We must presume what our brain does now reflects its abilities in its smaller past. We have no evidence of any other process.
DAVID: God enlarged it for them in 200cc jumps to reach the next stage of human evolution and thought capacity. Your convoluted inverted theory is to avoid God's agency.dhw: You agree that the brain does not change until it starts to IMPLEMENT new concepts (proven by modern science: learning to write), but now you say your God had to change the brain BEFORE pre-sapiens could think up the concepts whose implementation was what changed the brain! And you offer this contradictory inversion just because you want your God to dabble every branch and stage of the evolutionary bush, and you can’t bear the thought that he might have set up a mechanism whereby organisms work out their own ways of surviving and improving.
I'm sorry you cannot accept God at work. But your substitute theistic approach is also God at work.
Brain complexity: more important than size
by David Turell , Friday, November 24, 2017, 01:08 (2557 days ago) @ David Turell
Looking at the capacity of neurons and certain chemical levels shows that size alone is a minor factor in the complexity of brain function:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-11-small-distinct-differences-species-evolution.html
"all regions of the human brain have molecular signatures very similar to those of our primate relatives, yet some regions contain distinctly human patterns of gene activity that mark the brain's evolution and may contribute to our cognitive abilities, a new Yale-led study has found.
"The massive analysis of human, chimpanzee, and monkey tissue published Nov. 23 in the journal Science shows that the human brain is not only a larger version of the ancestral primate brain but also one filled with distinct and surprising differences.
"'Our brains are three times larger, have many more cells and therefore more processing power than chimpanzee or monkey," said Andre M.M. Sousa, a postdoctoral researcher in the lab of neuroscientist Nenad Sestan and co-lead author of the study. "Yet there are also distinct small differences between the species in how individual cells function and form connections."
"Despite differences in brain size, the researchers found striking similarities between primate species of gene expression in 16 regions of the brain—even in the prefrontal cortex, the seat of higher order learning that most distinguishes humans from other apes. However, the study showed the one area of the brain with the most human-specific gene expression is the striatum, a region most commonly associated with movement.
"Distinct differences were also found within regions of the brain, even in the cerebellum, one of the evolutionarily most ancient regions of the brain, and therefore most likely to share similarities across species. Researchers found one gene, ZP2, was active in only human cerebellum—a surprise, said the researchers, because the same gene had been linked to sperm selection by human ova.
***
"Zhu and Sousa also focused on one gene, TH, which is involved in the production of dopamine, a neurotransmitter crucial to higher-order function and depleted in people living with Parkinson's disease. They found that TH was highly expressed in human neocortex and striatum but absent from the neocortex of chimpanzees.
"'The neocortical expression of this gene was most likely lost in a common ancestor and reappeared in the human lineage," Sousa said.
"Researchers also found higher levels of expression of the gene MET, which is linked to autism spectrum disorder, in the human prefrontal cortex compared to the other primates tested. "
Comment: Obviously size is a minor issue in analyzing the functionality of a brain of a given organism. The quality of the neurons, of the networks and the levels of various chemicals play the much larger role.
Brain complexity: more important than size
by dhw, Friday, November 24, 2017, 13:57 (2556 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTES: "The massive analysis of human, chimpanzee, and monkey tissue published Nov. 23 in the journal Science shows that the human brain is not only a larger version of the ancestral primate brain but also one filled with distinct and surprising differences.”
"'Our brains are three times larger, have many more cells and therefore more processing power than chimpanzee or monkey…"
DAVID’s comment: Obviously size is a minor issue in analyzing the functionality of a brain of a given organism. The quality of the neurons, of the networks and the levels of various chemicals play the much larger role.
DAVID’s comment (under “travelling ants”): The ant brain may be tiny but it obviously has very complex neurologic networks to allow this kind of discerning ability. The point is size is only one discerning characteristic in judging the ability of a brain to function in a complex way. Highly sophisticated neural networks undoubtedly play a larger role. This is relevant in discussing brain size and function in any organisms.
Thank you for these two very revealing articles. Crucially, the human brain has many more cells than that of the chimp and is three times larger. Regardless of whether you are a materialist (= the brain is responsible for thought) or a dualist, there can be little doubt that increased size (the number of cells) accompanies the number of abilities. ALL brains are complex, but nobody will pretend that the ant is capable of as many activities as we are! Bearing in mind the fact that modern science shows the brain changes when it is required to perform new tasks, the obvious conclusion in the context of evolution is that these changes take place according to the needs of individual species – these needs being related to the drive for survival and/or improvement. I suspect that the brains of our fellow animals do not go beyond improving their chances of survival, and in each case complexification can cope when the brain has reached its optimum size. But pre-sapiens devised ever more complex ways of surviving (e.g. increasingly sophisticated tools and weapons, clothing, use of fire, social cohesion) which involved new tasks that required new skills which in turn required new cells to fulfil those tasks. Hence expansion, until brains could expand no more. From then on, complexification took over from the mix of complexification and expansion, as concepts gave rise to new concepts, culminating in all the improvements that go beyond the need to survive. All a natural progression that depends purely on the mechanism of brains reorganizing themselves in accordance with new requirements. No need for a God to preprogramme every single change or to dabble with every single brain even before changes are required. But it is perfectly reasonable to argue that such a mechanism requires design, and THAT is your strongest case for the existence of a designer (coupled, in my view, with unexplained psychic experiences).
Brain complexity: more important than size
by David Turell , Friday, November 24, 2017, 15:21 (2556 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Thank you for these two very revealing articles. Crucially, the human brain has many more cells than that of the chimp and is three times larger. Regardless of whether you are a materialist (= the brain is responsible for thought) or a dualist, there can be little doubt that increased size (the number of cells) accompanies the number of abilities. ALL brains are complex, but nobody will pretend that the ant is capable of as many activities as we are! Bearing in mind the fact that modern science shows the brain changes when it is required to perform new tasks, the obvious conclusion in the context of evolution is that these changes take place according to the needs of individual species – these needs being related to the drive for survival and/or improvement. I suspect that the brains of our fellow animals do not go beyond improving their chances of survival, and in each case complexification can cope when the brain has reached its optimum size.
This comment of yours recognizes the difference in human and animal brains. We all have the same basis sensory and survival parts, some of which are completely automatic. They occupy the hind brain, the mid brain, the cerebellum, the hypothalamus, etc.
dhw: But pre-sapiens devised ever more complex ways of surviving (e.g. increasingly sophisticated tools and weapons, clothing, use of fire, social cohesion) which involved new tasks that required new skills which in turn required new cells to fulfil those tasks.
This resulted from the development of a larger frontal and pre-frontal cortex, ever larger with each jump of 200cc in size. The other parts basically did not enlarge.
dhw: Hence expansion, until brains could expand no more. From then on, complexification took over from the mix of complexification and expansion, as concepts gave rise to new concepts, culminating in all the improvements that go beyond the need to survive. All a natural progression that depends purely on the mechanism of brains reorganizing themselves in accordance with new requirements. No need for a God to preprogramme every single change or to dabble with every single brain even before changes are required.
I believe God designed brains to enlarge and contract within the same skull size at each stage of hominin development. No dabbling required as you observe. But God had to provide the 200cc enlargement of skull as each new 200cc of frontal lobe cortex was added by Him.
dhw:But it is perfectly reasonable to argue that such a mechanism requires design, and THAT is your strongest case for the existence of a designer (coupled, in my view, with unexplained psychic experiences).
Thank you.
Brain complexity: more important than size
by dhw, Saturday, November 25, 2017, 08:54 (2556 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: […] I suspect that the brains of our fellow animals do not go beyond improving their chances of survival, and in each case complexification can cope when the brain has reached its optimum size.
DAVID: This comment of yours recognizes the difference in human and animal brains. We all have the same basis sensory and survival parts, some of which are completely automatic. They occupy the hind brain, the mid brain, the cerebellum, the hypothalamus, etc.
Nothing to disagree with here.
dhw: But pre-sapiens devised ever more complex ways of surviving (e.g. increasingly sophisticated tools and weapons, clothing, use of fire, social cohesion) which involved new tasks that required new skills which in turn required new cells to fulfil those tasks.
DAVID: This resulted from the development of a larger frontal and pre-frontal cortex, ever larger with each jump of 200cc in size. The other parts basically did not enlarge.
I rely on you for the facts regarding what did and did not expand, but you are once again ignoring the fact that changes in the brain result from the implementation of new concepts. If modern research is correct, and if a similar process took place in pre-sapiens times, the implementation of new tasks resulted IN and not FROM the larger cortex.
dhw: Hence expansion, until brains could expand no more. From then on, complexification took over from the mix of complexification and expansion, as concepts gave rise to new concepts, culminating in all the improvements that go beyond the need to survive. All a natural progression that depends purely on the mechanism of brains reorganizing themselves in accordance with new requirements. No need for a God to preprogramme every single change or to dabble with every single brain even before changes are required.
DAVID: I believe God designed brains to enlarge and contract within the same skull size at each stage of hominin development. No dabbling required as you observe. But God had to provide the 200cc enlargement of skull as each new 200cc of frontal lobe cortex was added by Him.
I don’t understand why if your God had already designed brains to respond to new ideas by expanding and contracting (= rewiring and complexifying) when necessary, he wouldn’t (couldn’t?) also have designed brains and skulls to expand when necessary. Once again, why should we ignore modern science (which tells us that the brain changes in response to new concepts/tasks), and instead believe that the brain and skull changed BEFORE new tasks were even thought of?
dhw:But it is perfectly reasonable to argue that such a mechanism requires design, and THAT is your strongest case for the existence of a designer (coupled, in my view, with unexplained psychic experiences).
DAVID: Thank you.
It is essential that we separate the issue of God’s existence (which I never discount) from that of how evolution works, whether God-made or not. I am the baddie in all these discussions, because without a positive belief of my own, I can only look for the flaws in other people’s beliefs. You will have noticed that I can no more accept reblak’s atheistic explanation of life and the universe than I can accept your theistic explanation.
Brain complexity: more important than size
by David Turell , Saturday, November 25, 2017, 18:48 (2555 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: This resulted from the development of a larger frontal and pre-frontal cortex, ever larger with each jump of 200cc in size. The other parts basically did not enlarge.I rely on you for the facts regarding what did and did not expand, but you are once again ignoring the fact that changes in the brain result from the implementation of new concepts. If modern research is correct, and if a similar process took place in pre-sapiens times, the implementation of new tasks resulted IN and not FROM the larger cortex.
The processes we know from modern brains is enlargement and contraction within the same skull size accommodated by the fluid layer around the brain. I assume this process existed in hominin times since evolution builds on what is newly accomplished at each stage. Your proposal does not fit this with the 200cc jumps in size and hen the new artifacts appear.
dhw: I don’t understand why if your God had already designed brains to respond to new ideas by expanding and contracting (= rewiring and complexifying) when necessary, he wouldn’t (couldn’t?) also have designed brains and skulls to expand when necessary. Once again, why should we ignore modern science (which tells us that the brain changes in response to new concepts/tasks), and instead believe that the brain and skull changed BEFORE new tasks were even thought of?
The H. sapiens brain is 300,000 years old, and in the past 10,000 years filled with an enormous number of new concepts filling huge libraries of books, and has gotten a little smaller recently. This is precisely opposite to your theory. You are also asking God to have automatic speciation instead of His stepping in. That is fine with me as He is still in complete control since He gave the hominins the complete method..
dhw:But it is perfectly reasonable to argue that such a mechanism requires design, and THAT is your strongest case for the existence of a designer (coupled, in my view, with unexplained psychic experiences).DAVID: Thank you.
dhw: It is essential that we separate the issue of God’s existence (which I never discount) from that of how evolution works, whether God-made or not. I am the baddie in all these discussions, because without a positive belief of my own, I can only look for the flaws in other people’s beliefs. You will have noticed that I can no more accept reblak’s atheistic explanation of life and the universe than I can accept your theistic explanation.
Your agnostic position is well understood.
Brain complexity: more important than size
by dhw, Sunday, November 26, 2017, 13:52 (2554 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: The processes we know from modern brains is enlargement and contraction within the same skull size accommodated by the fluid layer around the brain. I assume this process existed in hominin times since evolution builds on what is newly accomplished at each stage. Your proposal does not fit this with the 200cc jumps in size and hen the new artifacts appear.
I keep explaining the jumps, and you keep telling me I haven’t explained them! I’ll try again, starting with the proven fact that the brain changes when it implements new concepts. Each jump therefore took place when enlargement and contraction of EXISTING cells could not cope with new concepts. Example: concept of spear. Implementation of concept requires new skills beyond capacity of existing brain and skull. Effort to implement concept results in additional cells . Brain and skull undergo jump. For a while, process of enlargement and contraction sufficient for needs. New concepts arrive, new jump needed to produce new artefacts. Each jump is result of effort to implement new concepts. Point reached (say 300,000 years ago) when more jumps impractical for body. New concepts implemented through rewiring/complexification. For next stage see below.
DAVID: The H. sapiens brain is 300,000 years old, and in the past 10,000 years filled with an enormous number of new concepts filling huge libraries of books, and has gotten a little smaller recently. This is precisely opposite to your theory.
Already explained, but I’ll try yet again. 300,000 years ago brain reached optimum size – further expansion impractical for rest of body. New concepts implemented by rewiring/complexification (preceded by brief, minor expansion). 10,000 years ago, enormous number of new concepts. Why? As in all evolution, individuals start things off and others follow suit. 10,000 years ago bright individuals came up with concepts that others built on. Result: ever increasing complexity of brain (process so efficient that brains shrink, or discard cells no longer required) as new concepts implemented – process proven by modern science. Brains do not complexify BEFORE required to do so. They complexify in response to new demands. “This is precisely opposite to your theory.”
DAVID: You are also asking God to have automatic speciation instead of His stepping in. That is fine with me as He is still in complete control since He gave the hominins the complete method.
In my hypothesis it is not automatic. It is governed by the intelligence (or otherwise, since most species became extinct) of the different cell communities. “In complete control” is not clear, so let’s try to clarify what “control” means here. If he gave organisms (including hominins) the method to fashion their own evolution because he wanted to leave them free to do it their own way, he does not completely control the way they evolve. He is in control in the sense that their autonomous quest for survival/improvement is what he wants.
Brain complexity: more important than size
by David Turell , Sunday, November 26, 2017, 19:20 (2554 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: The processes we know from modern brains is enlargement and contraction within the same skull size accommodated by the fluid layer around the brain. I assume this process existed in hominin times since evolution builds on what is newly accomplished at each stage. Your proposal does not fit this with the 200cc jumps in size and hen the new artifacts appear.
I keep explaining the jumps, and you keep telling me I haven’t explained them! I’ll try again, starting with the proven fact that the brain changes when it implements new concepts. Each jump therefore took place when enlargement and contraction of EXISTING cells could not cope with new concepts. Example: concept of spear. Implementation of concept requires new skills beyond capacity of existing brain and skull. Effort to implement concept results in additional cells . Brain and skull undergo jump. For a while, process of enlargement and contraction sufficient for needs. New concepts arrive, new jump needed to produce new artefacts. Each jump is result of effort to implement new concepts. Point reached (say 300,000 years ago) when more jumps impractical for body. New concepts implemented through rewiring/complexification. For next stage see below.
You have declared a jump in size (see bold) but not how it happened because as we both know we do not understand speciation. I firmly believe only God can do it. Note in sapiens that the brain shrinks with 300,000 years of concepts, and there is no proof we cannot handle a bigger skull size. Neanderthals had one!
DAVID: The H. sapiens brain is 300,000 years old, and in the past 10,000 years filled with an enormous number of new concepts filling huge libraries of books, and has gotten a little smaller recently. This is precisely opposite to your theory.dhw: Already explained, but I’ll try yet again. 300,000 years ago brain reached optimum size – further expansion impractical for rest of body. New concepts implemented by rewiring/complexification (preceded by brief, minor expansion). 10,000 years ago, enormous number of new concepts. Why? As in all evolution, individuals start things off and others follow suit. 10,000 years ago bright individuals came up with concepts that others built on. Result: ever increasing complexity of brain (process so efficient that brains shrink, or discard cells no longer required) as new concepts implemented – process proven by modern science. Brains do not complexify BEFORE required to do so. They complexify in response to new demands. “This is precisely opposite to your theory.”
Yes it is as yours it totally backward to the evidence we have in sapiens knowledge and skull shrinkage.
DAVID: You are also asking God to have automatic speciation instead of His stepping in. That is fine with me as He is still in complete control since He gave the hominins the complete method.dhw: In my hypothesis it is not automatic. It is governed by the intelligence (or otherwise, since most species became extinct) of the different cell communities. “In complete control” is not clear, so let’s try to clarify what “control” means here. If he gave organisms (including hominins) the method to fashion their own evolution because he wanted to leave them free to do it their own way, he does not completely control the way they evolve. He is in control in the sense that their autonomous quest for survival/improvement is what he wants.
And if they go down a rabbit hole He doesn't want, then what?
Brain complexity: more important than size
by dhw, Monday, November 27, 2017, 14:22 (2553 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I keep explaining the jumps, and you keep telling me I haven’t explained them!
(I shan’t reproduce the explanation yet again.)
DAVID: You have declared a jump in size (see bold) but not how it happened because as we both know we do not understand speciation. I firmly believe only God can do it.
We know that the brain changes in response to new concepts. We know that muscles expand with exercise. We know that cell communities change their structures during processes of adaptation. Maybe the same process can explain speciation. No, I can’t tell you HOW they do it, but it has to be some kind of autonomous mechanism (possibly designed by your God), unless you think your God popped down and changed the structure of individual bacteria, fish, whales, hominids – or programmed the first cells with every single change for the rest of time.
DAVID: Note in sapiens that the brain shrinks with 300,000 years of concepts, and there is no proof we cannot handle a bigger skull size. Neanderthals had one!
I keep explaining that the shrinkage must be due to the efficiency of complexification. You have even quoted me below (I’ve bolded it for you). And it was you who earlier said that sci-fi imaginings of humans with huge heads were rubbish. There has to be a limit.
DAVID: The H. sapiens brain is 300,000 years old, and in the past 10,000 years filled with an enormous number of new concepts filling huge libraries of books, and has gotten a little smaller recently. This is precisely opposite to your theory.
dhw: […] 10,000 years ago bright individuals came up with concepts that others built on. Result: ever increasing complexity of brain (process so efficient that brains shrink, or discard cells no longer required) as new concepts implemented – process proven by modern science. Brains do not complexify BEFORE required to do so. They complexify in response to new demands. “This is precisely opposite to your theory.”
DAVID: Yes it is as yours it totally backward to the evidence we have in sapiens knowledge and skull shrinkage.
You are clutching at the same straw that has already been screwed up and thrown away. Shrinkage has been explained as above. Do you or do you not accept the findings of modern science that the brain changes in response to concepts, and not in anticipation of them?
dhw: […] If he gave organisms (including hominins) the method to fashion their own evolution because he wanted to leave them free to do it their own way, he does not completely control the way they evolve. He is in control in the sense that their autonomous quest for survival/improvement is what he wants.
DAVID: And if they go down a rabbit hole He doesn't want, then what?
If he exists, he can interfere (e.g. Chixculub). That doesn’t mean he controlled every innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder that ever occurred in the history of evolution.
Brain complexity: more important than size
by David Turell , Monday, November 27, 2017, 17:55 (2553 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Yes it is as yours it totally backward to the evidence we have in sapiens knowledge and skull shrinkage.dhw: You are clutching at the same straw that has already been screwed up and thrown away. Shrinkage has been explained as above. Do you or do you not accept the findings of modern science that the brain changes in response to concepts, and not in anticipation of them?
You have not explained why each stage of hominin starts 200cc larger, composed primarily of frontal and prefrontal cortical growth, more neurons, more connections, and then subsequent to that growth the artifacts improve and are more complex. It is that part of the brain, used by the soul, which thinks. Size first, use second by evidence in history. You insist that an urgency for implementation forces the size jump (evolutionary mechanism unknown). But history tells us the sapiens brain arrived 300,000 years ago, with most implementation in the past 10,000 years. If it was required by necessity, what took so long (290,000 years)? My answer, sapiens had to learn to use the new capacity. And with complexificiation the brain and skull shrunk a little. This tells us it was an early development in evolution in early hominins, because we see no tiny enlargements, but 200 cc jumps in size, with each stage not gradually enlarging, but complexifying at the same size achieved when the new hominin stage appeared. Since I believe God speciates, He caused the necessary enlargements to occur.
Brain complexity: more important than size
by dhw, Tuesday, November 28, 2017, 14:13 (2552 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Do you or do you not accept the findings of modern science that the brain changes in response to concepts, and not in anticipation of them?
Your response is a repetition of all the points already covered. I can only repeat the explanations I have already offered.
DAVID: You have not explained why each stage of hominin starts 200cc larger, composed primarily of frontal and prefrontal cortical growth, more neurons, more connections, and then subsequent to that growth the artifacts improve and are more complex. It is that part of the brain, used by the soul, which thinks. Size first, use second by evidence in history. (dhw’s bold)
Once again you have the brain thinking (bolded), whereas you keep telling us it is the soul that thinks. Your usual contradiction (though I am not taking sides.) There is no way of telling that the artefacts arrived SUBSEQUENT to the growth. The implement is only there when the brain has done its work and expanded, just as it finishes rewiring when the Indian women can write.
DAVID: You insist that an urgency for implementation forces the size jump (evolutionary mechanism unknown). But history tells us the sapiens brain arrived 300,000 years ago, with most implementation in the past 10,000 years. If it was required by necessity, what took so long (290,000 years)?
You have already agreed that progress is made through individuals. I do not accept that there was no progress for 290,000 years, but 10,000 years ago there were some particularly bright individuals who came up with concepts that would have caused rapid change (complexification).
DAVID: My answer, sapiens had to learn to use the new capacity. And with complexification the brain and skull shrunk a little.
The new, optimum capacity was reached 300,000 years ago. Complexification had to take over, and was so efficient that the brain no longer needs quite as many cells as it had before.
DAVID: This tells us it was an early development in evolution in early hominins, because we see no tiny enlargements, but 200 cc jumps in size, with each stage not gradually enlarging, but complexifying at the same size achieved when the new hominin stage appeared.
200 cc, you have told us, was the average, but I am quite happy to accept that there would have been a process of complexifying until the capacity was no longer adequate to cope with new demands. Then there would have had to be a jump. Then complexification within the new capacity would have sufficed until new concepts required another jump. 300,000 years ago complexification took over from jumps. What’s the problem?
DAVID: Since I believe God speciates, He caused the necessary enlargements to occur.
Or he may have created the mechanism which enabled the necessary enlargements to occur. And in all this welter of repeated objections, you still haven’t answered my question: Do you or do you not accept the findings of modern science that the brain changes in response to concepts, and not in anticipation of them?
Brain complexity: more important than size
by David Turell , Tuesday, November 28, 2017, 15:54 (2552 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: You insist that an urgency for implementation forces the size jump (evolutionary mechanism unknown). But history tells us the sapiens brain arrived 300,000 years ago, with most implementation in the past 10,000 years. If it was required by necessity, what took so long (290,000 years)?
dhw: You have already agreed that progress is made through individuals. I do not accept that there was no progress for 290,000 years, but 10,000 years ago there were some particularly bright individuals who came up with concepts that would have caused rapid change (complexification).
DAVID: My answer, sapiens had to learn to use the new capacity. And with complexification the brain and skull shrunk a little.
Added: That advance was in the very civilized parts of the world. But there are still parts of the world with isolated indigenous people. We all have the same brain size related to body size. The indigenous have still not learned to use all of it, wich is my point about jump in size and then learning to use it.
dhw: The new, optimum capacity was reached 300,000 years ago. Complexification had to take over, and was so efficient that the brain no longer needs quite as many cells as it had before.
Complexification involved more than cells. Connectivity with much more branching of axons is equally important.
DAVID: This tells us it was an early development in evolution in early hominins, because we see no tiny enlargements, but 200 cc jumps in size, with each stage not gradually enlarging, but complexifying at the same size achieved when the new hominin stage appeared.dhw: 200 cc, you have told us, was the average, but I am quite happy to accept that there would have been a process of complexifying until the capacity was no longer adequate to cope with new demands. Then there would have had to be a jump. Then complexification within the new capacity would have sufficed until new concepts required another jump. 300,000 years ago complexification took over from jumps. What’s the problem?
Artifacts! What a brain can think of is evidence of the present concepts and the implementation it is capable of at its current size.
DAVID: Since I believe God speciates, He caused the necessary enlargements to occur.dhw: Or he may have created the mechanism which enabled the necessary enlargements to occur. And in all this welter of repeated objections, you still haven’t answered my question: Do you or do you not accept the findings of modern science that the brain changes in response to concepts, and not in anticipation of them?
Once a new brain size is established, the new advanced level of hominin learns to use it. Each level responds by complexification at the same size. The brain change is within a given size as demonstrated by current science. You can't extrapolate otherwise.
Brain complexity: more important than size
by dhw, Wednesday, November 29, 2017, 18:50 (2551 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: You have already agreed that progress is made through individuals. I do not accept that there was no progress for 290,000 years, but 10,000 years ago there were some particularly bright individuals who came up with concepts that would have caused rapid change (complexification).
DAVID: My answer, sapiens had to learn to use the new capacity. And with complexification the brain and skull shrunk a little.
DAVID: Added: That advance was in the very civilized parts of the world. But there are still parts of the world with isolated indigenous people. We all have the same brain size related to body size. The indigenous have still not learned to use all of it, wich is my point about jump in size and then learning to use it.
You are talking about the brain of homo sapiens, which we assume was the final jump and will probably stay the same size. I don’t suppose any human would claim to have used ALL of its potential, unless you think we’ve finished learning, inventing, discovering etc. But whereas in pre-sapiens days, the existing brains eventually proved too small to cope with what needed to be learned, and therefore expanded, now instead of expanding, they complexify.
dhw: The new, optimum capacity was reached 300,000 years ago. Complexification had to take over, and was so efficient that the brain no longer needs quite as many cells as it had before.
DAVID: Complexification involved more than cells. Connectivity with much more branching of axons is equally important.
I thought an axon was part of a neuron, and I thought a neuron was a cell. Ah well, in that case, the brain shrank because complexification was so efficient that it didn’t need to be as big as it was.
dhw: […]300,000 years ago complexification took over from jumps. What’s the problem?
DAVID: Artifacts! What a brain can think of is evidence of the present concepts and the implementation it is capable of at its current size.
Once again: today the implementation only takes place at the brain’s current size, because it can’t expand any more. But in pre-sapiens days it could and did expand, and as we know from modern science, it is the process of implementation that changes the brain. In pre-sapiens days, the production of the artefacts required a new capacity, so the change was expansion, whereas today the implementation of the concept requires rewiring. The changes do not take place BEFORE the concept, and they are CAUSED by its implementation.
dhw: Do you or do you not accept the findings of modern science that the brain changes in response to concepts, and not in anticipation of them?
DAVID: Once a new brain size is established, the new advanced level of hominin learns to use it. Each level responds by complexification at the same size. The brain change is within a given size as demonstrated by current science. You can't extrapolate otherwise.
Yet again you avoid giving a direct answer. The brain change is within a given size NOW! But yes, once a size was established, the hominin brain would also have complexified within that given size until the size was no longer adequate to implement the concept. Then it expanded. If you agree that the brain changes in RESPONSE to concepts and efforts to implement them, as proven by modern science, and not beforehand, then it makes no sense to claim that in the past the brain changed BEFORE the hominin had the concepts and tried to implement them. That would be like saying that today the Indian women’s brains rewired before they learned to write.
Brain complexity: more important than size
by David Turell , Wednesday, November 29, 2017, 20:16 (2551 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Added: That advance was in the very civilized parts of the world. But there are still parts of the world with isolated indigenous people. We all have the same brain size related to body size. The indigenous have still not learned to use all of it, wich is my point about jump in size and then learning to use it.
dhw: You are talking about the brain of homo sapiens, which we assume was the final jump and will probably stay the same size. I don’t suppose any human would claim to have used ALL of its potential, unless you think we’ve finished learning, inventing, discovering etc. But whereas in pre-sapiens days, the existing brains eventually proved too small to cope with what needed to be learned, and therefore expanded, now instead of expanding, they complexify.
I still insist that the mechanism of enlargement/shrinkage was undoubtedly present in hominin brains, and not, as you imply, invented just for sapiens. I'm sure Neanderthals had the mechanism. Since evolution builds on past developments, I am very sure my interpretation is correct.
dhw: The new, optimum capacity was reached 300,000 years ago. Complexification had to take over, and was so efficient that the brain no longer needs quite as many cells as it had before.
DAVID: Complexification involved more than cells. Connectivity with much more branching of axons is equally important.dhw: I thought an axon was part of a neuron, and I thought a neuron was a cell. Ah well, in that case, the brain shrank because complexification was so efficient that it didn’t need to be as big as it was.
Yes, axons are branches from neurons but can be grown and branched in complexification of brain plasticity and some neurons can be added to a given network.
dhw: […]300,000 years ago complexification took over from jumps. What’s the problem?
DAVID: Artifacts! What a brain can think of is evidence of the present concepts and the implementation it is capable of at its current size.dhw: Once again: today the implementation only takes place at the brain’s current size, because it can’t expand any more. But in pre-sapiens days it could and did expand, and as we know from modern science, it is the process of implementation that changes the brain. In pre-sapiens days, the production of the artefacts required a new capacity, so the change was expansion, whereas today the implementation of the concept requires rewiring. The changes do not take place BEFORE the concept, and they are CAUSED by its implementation.
Answered above.
dhw: Do you or do you not accept the findings of modern science that the brain changes in response to concepts, and not in anticipation of them?
DAVID: Once a new brain size is established, the new advanced level of hominin learns to use it. Each level responds by complexification at the same size. The brain change is within a given size as demonstrated by current science. You can't extrapolate otherwise.dhw: Yet again you avoid giving a direct answer. The brain change is within a given size NOW! But yes, once a size was established, the hominin brain would also have complexified within that given size until the size was no longer adequate to implement the concept. Then it expanded.
So you do agree a hominin brain could expand/contract within a given size. We disagree of how the next expansion happened. God did it either directly or by pre-programming.
. dhw: If you agree that the brain changes in RESPONSE to concepts and efforts to implement them, as proven by modern science, and not beforehand, then it makes no sense to claim that in the past the brain changed BEFORE the hominin had the concepts and tried to implement them. That would be like saying that today the Indian women’s brains rewired before they learned to write.
And here you backtrack and twist the concept that early brains could expand/contract with new uses. Of course they did.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Friday, November 24, 2017, 13:50 (2556 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Using what we know about sapiens, a brain learns something new by slightly enlarging and then shrinks as it reorganizes. No permanent brain enlargement.
dhw: Round we go. There is no permanent enlargement in sapiens because further enlargement would be impractical. That is why reorganization/complexification took over from pre-sapiens enlargement.
DAVID: I proposed that enlargement/shrinkage exists in all pre-homos. You agreed. Remember?
Yes, but that is not the issue. If temporary enlargement and shrinkage (through complexification) could not implement the new concept (e.g. making and learning to use a spear), the effort of implementation would have required new cells, and that would have caused expansion beyond the existing size. I don’t believe expansion took place for no reason and without a cause!
DAVID: What if pre-habilis couldn't envision a spear? Only habilis had the concept and implemented it, all with the same brain. That is the only way to interpret artifacts.
If habilis envisioned the spear and made it without the need for extra cells, then of course he wouldn’t have needed brain expansion. I have simply taken the spear as an example (though I think it’s a good one, as it requires so many new skills). You keep ignoring the fact that brains DID expand and we know from modern scientific research that the brain changes (whether complexifying or enlarging) in response to new tasks, whatever they may be. It doesn’t change in advance of new tasks. Your next answer illustrates my point, except for the vagueness of its language.
dhw: Why would your God bother to expand pre-sapiens brains if there was no progress?
DAVID: Each brain enlargement allowed progress beyond the last stage.
Progress comes in the form of new concepts. But they cannot be made real without brain changes, which happen with the effort to implement new concepts. Hence each brain enlargement RESULTED from the implementation of new concepts. The changes do not happen BEFORE the concept is even formed!
dhw: And so if there was a sudden leap forward 10,000 years ago, it could only have been because certain individual souls or certain individual brain cell communities came up with new ideas.
DAVID: Agreed. All thinking individuals contribute to our progress. We educate each other.
dhw: So that’s settled! Slow progress until a few specially clever individuals caused the leap. Except that you still can’t bear the thought that this is a perfectly natural progression.
DAVID: Of course a perfectly natural progression with no permanent brain enlargement.
Yes, the brain had reached its optimum size. Thank you for accepting my solution to the “mystery” of the sudden leap.
dhw: You agree that sapiens brain and skull could not enlarge any further without serious physical problems. That is why sapiens complexification (with resultant shrinkage) took over from pre-sapiens enlargement.
DAVID: All pre-homos had a degree of complexification! This is why the progression of hominins had a 200cc increase with each new stage of evolutionary development.
The increase didn’t come about because pre-homos had a degree of complexification! It came about when complexification couldn’t cope, and the implementation of new concepts required expansion. THAT is why each new stage of evolutionary development was a progression from complexification to enlargement as new concepts became a reality.
DAVID: God enlarged it for them in 200cc jumps to reach the next stage of human evolution and thought capacity. Your convoluted inverted theory is to avoid God's agency.
dhw: You agree that the brain does not change until it starts to IMPLEMENT new concepts (proven by modern science: learning to write), but now you say your God had to change the brain BEFORE pre-sapiens could think up the concepts whose implementation was what changed the brain! And you offer this contradictory inversion just because you want your God to dabble every branch and stage of the evolutionary bush, and you can’t bear the thought that he might have set up a mechanism whereby organisms work out their own ways of surviving and improving.
DAVID: I'm sorry you cannot accept God at work. But your substitute theistic approach is also God at work.
I cannot accept your pointless inversion of the process whereby implementation of concepts causes brain change, as proven by modern science. But if God exists, then of course my alternative interpretation has him at work. He would have created the mechanism whereby the cell communities of all organisms adjust their structure in order to implement new concepts: the human body for bipedalism, the human brain to translate ideas into reality, the whale to move from land to water, the fish to move from water to land. Every change as a response to challenges and opportunities in a perfectly natural progression which explains the whole history of life on Earth in terms of the common descent you and I both believe in.
(See also under “brain complexity; more important than size”)
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Friday, November 24, 2017, 15:35 (2556 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: I proposed that enlargement/shrinkage exists in all pre-homos. You agreed. Remember?
dhw: Yes, but that is not the issue. If temporary enlargement and shrinkage (through complexification) could not implement the new concept (e.g. making and learning to use a spear), the effort of implementation would have required new cells, and that would have caused expansion beyond the existing size. I don’t believe expansion took place for no reason and without a cause!
Remember, God did it!
dhw: Why would your God bother to expand pre-sapiens brains if there was no progress?
[/i]
DAVID: Each brain enlargement allowed progress beyond the last stage.
dhw: Progress comes in the form of new concepts. But they cannot be made real without brain changes, which happen with the effort to implement new concepts. Hence each brain enlargement RESULTED from the implementation of new concepts. The changes do not happen BEFORE the concept is even formed!
New concepts require more advanced thought from previous thoughts, which is provided by larger more complex brain which permits the appearance of more advanced thought..
dhw: So that’s settled! Slow progress until a few specially clever individuals caused the leap. Except that you still can’t bear the thought that this is a perfectly natural progression.[/i]
DAVID: Of course a perfectly natural progression with no permanent brain enlargement.
dhw: Yes, the brain had reached its optimum size. Thank you for accepting my solution to the “mystery” of the sudden leap.
All of us had bigger frontal lobes and more cortex. We could easily accommodate the new concepts.
dhw: You agree that sapiens brain and skull could not enlarge any further without serious physical problems. That is why sapiens complexification (with resultant shrinkage) took over from pre-sapiens enlargement.
DAVID: All pre-homos had a degree of complexification! This is why the progression of hominins had a 200cc increase with each new stage of evolutionary development.
dhw: The increase didn’t come about because pre-homos had a degree of complexification! It came about when complexification couldn’t cope, and the implementation of new concepts required expansion. THAT is why each new stage of evolutionary development was a progression from complexification to enlargement as new concepts became a reality.
Expressed in the other thread: based on what we know about brains, each stage of hominin brain started with a set size and degree of complexity and could expand and contract with developing thought within the same skull size until the next large jump in sized appeared through God's intervention.
DAVID: I'm sorry you cannot accept God at work. But your substitute theistic approach is also God at work.
dhw: I cannot accept your pointless inversion of the process whereby implementation of concepts causes brain change, as proven by modern science. But if God exists, then of course my alternative interpretation has him at work. He would have created the mechanism whereby the cell communities of all organisms adjust their structure in order to implement new concepts: the human body for bipedalism, the human brain to translate ideas into reality, the whale to move from land to water, the fish to move from water to land. Every change as a response to challenges and opportunities in a perfectly natural progression which explains the whole history of life on Earth in terms of the common descent you and I both believe in.
Your theory never explains a 200cc jump in size. Only God explains it.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Saturday, November 25, 2017, 09:03 (2556 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I don’t believe expansion took place for no reason and without a cause!
DAVID: Remember, God did it!
I’ll keep my theist hat on, and point out that your God could have designed brain and skull in such a way that they would expand when there was a good reason for them to do so, instead of him expanding them for no reason and having them wait around for inspiration.
DAVID: New concepts require more advanced thought from previous thoughts, which is provided by larger more complex brain which permits the appearance of more advanced thought.
You are back to renouncing your dualism, since you yourself do NOT believe that thought is provided by the brain, but this actually makes no difference as I hope to show one day with my compromise between dualism and materialism! So whether thought comes from the brain or not, modern science tells us that it is the effort to implement concepts that changes the brain. You insist on having the brain change before it is exposed to the concepts that make it change. Illogical.
dhw: …if there was a sudden leap forwards 10,000 years ago, it could only have been because certain…individual brain communities came up with new ideas..
DAVID: All of us had bigger frontal lobes and more cortex. We could easily accommodate the new concepts.
Bigger frontal lobes and more cortex were the “end” product of a series of expansions caused by the accumulation of concepts requiring more cells for their implementation. By the time of the leap, expansion had long since stopped, and new ideas resulted solely in complexification (apart from the initial min-expansion).
DAVID: …based on what we know about brains, each stage of hominin brain started with a set size and degree of complexity and could expand and contract with developing thought within the same skull size until the next large jump in sized appeared through God's intervention. (dhw's bold)
Based on what we know about brains, they change IN RESPONSE to new tasks, so please replace the words in bold by: “until the next large jump in size appeared when the process of expansion and contraction proved inadequate to implement new or more advanced concepts”.
DAVID: Your theory never explains a 200cc jump in size. Only God explains it.
My theory explains (for the umpteenth time) that a jump was necessary when the existing size could no longer cope with the demands made on it by new tasks and concepts. It also explains how and why other organisms, from immune cells to pre-whales, also change their structures without any need for your God to preprogramme every change or to dabble personally. But he may have designed the mechanism enabling organisms to make the changes.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Saturday, November 25, 2017, 18:56 (2555 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: New concepts require more advanced thought from previous thoughts, which is provided by larger more complex brain which permits the appearance of more advanced thought.dhw: You are back to renouncing your dualism, since you yourself do NOT believe that thought is provided by the brain, but this actually makes no difference as I hope to show one day with my compromise between dualism and materialism! So whether thought comes from the brain or not, modern science tells us that it is the effort to implement concepts that changes the brain. You insist on having the brain change before it is exposed to the concepts that make it change. Illogical.
Answered in the other thread. Dualism not renounced. I've explained soul/brain/ consciousness many times. Can't help if I don't repeat it all every time. You fully well know what I think.
dhw: …if there was a sudden leap forwards 10,000 years ago, it could only have been because certain…individual brain communities came up with new ideas..DAVID: All of us had bigger frontal lobes and more cortex. We could easily accommodate the new concepts.
dhw: Bigger frontal lobes and more cortex were the “end” product of a series of expansions caused by the accumulation of concepts requiring more cells for their implementation. By the time of the leap, expansion had long since stopped, and new ideas resulted solely in complexification (apart from the initial min-expansion).
Expansion/contraction in the same skull size is fully explained in the other thread.
DAVID: Your theory never explains a 200cc jump in size. Only God explains it.dhw: My theory explains (for the umpteenth time) that a jump was necessary when the existing size could no longer cope with the demands made on it by new tasks and concepts.
If they don't have the brain capacity to think of a new concept it can't be implemented.
dhw: It also explains how and why other organisms, from immune cells to pre-whales, also change their structures without any need for your God to preprogramme every change or to dabble personally. But he may have designed the mechanism enabling organisms to make the changes.
Again God-lite!
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Sunday, November 26, 2017, 14:03 (2554 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: New concepts require more advanced thought from previous thoughts, which is provided by larger more complex brain which permits the appearance of more advanced thought.
dhw: You are back to renouncing your dualism, since you yourself do NOT believe that thought is provided by the brain…
DAVID: Answered in the other thread. Dualism not renounced. I've explained soul/brain/ consciousness many times. Can't help if I don't repeat it all every time. You fully well know what I think.
I know what you think, but in trying to defend your hypothesis of God expanding the brain BEFORE the arrival of new concepts, you are repeatedly forced to contradict your own beliefs! That is why, as above, you keep saying things like more advanced thought is “provided by larger more complex brain”. (See below for another example.) Either the brain provides thought (materialism) or thought is what activates the brain (dualism). If thought activates the brain, then you cannot argue that thought is provided by the brain! But precisely that is the process required if you argue that the brain had to expand BEFORE homo could THINK of the concept.
DAVID: Your theory never explains a 200cc jump in size. Only God explains it.
dhw: My theory explains (for the umpteenth time) that a jump was necessary when the existing size could no longer cope with the demands made on it by new tasks and concepts.
DAVID: If they don't have the brain capacity to think of a new concept it can't be implemented. (dhw's bold)
And back you go to claiming that it is the brain that THINKS of the concept. (Brain capacity is what is needed to IMPLEMENT the concept.) It may well be that the brain does our thinking, but you are the dualist who claims that it doesn’t! (I am not taking sides, but merely pointing out how you continue to contradict yourself.) If you believe your “soul” does the thinking, then your “soul” thinks of the new concept, and if the brain does not have the CAPACITY to IMPLEMENT the concept, then clearly it has to increase its capacity and expand.
dhw: It also explains how and why other organisms, from immune cells to pre-whales, also change their structures without any need for your God to preprogramme every change or to dabble personally. But he may have designed the mechanism enabling organisms to make the changes.
DAVID: Again God-lite!
This is the feeblest of all your arguments. As you quite rightly say yourself on the “Evolution and humans” thread, “an alternative God approach is still God”.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Sunday, November 26, 2017, 19:31 (2554 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Answered in the other thread. Dualism not renounced. I've explained soul/brain/ consciousness many times. Can't help if I don't repeat it all every time. You fully well know what I think.
dhw: I know what you think, but in trying to defend your hypothesis of God expanding the brain BEFORE the arrival of new concepts, you are repeatedly forced to contradict your own beliefs! That is why, as above, you keep saying things like more advanced thought is “provided by larger more complex brain”. (See below for another example.) Either the brain provides thought (materialism) or thought is what activates the brain (dualism). If thought activates the brain, then you cannot argue that thought is provided by the brain! But precisely that is the process required if you argue that the brain had to expand BEFORE homo could THINK of the concept.
A larger brain is capable of more complexity to develop with a larger cortex in each jump in size. That is what you miss. More cortex, more consciousness mechanism received for the soul to use, and as this happens the brain can remake its connections and neurons to more efficiently use its consciousness, and stay the same size for that stage of hominin development..
DAVID: Your theory never explains a 200cc jump in size. Only God explains it.dhw: My theory explains (for the umpteenth time) that a jump was necessary when the existing size could no longer cope with the demands made on it by new tasks and concepts.
But at the smaller size the hominin couldn't think of those tasks and concepts which only appear with the next sized brain, as shown by the artifacts..
DAVID: If they don't have the brain capacity to think of a new concept it can't be implemented. (dhw's bold)dhw: And back you go to claiming that it is the brain that THINKS of the concept. (Brain capacity is what is needed to IMPLEMENT the concept.) It may well be that the brain does our thinking, but you are the dualist who claims that it doesn’t! (I am not taking sides, but merely pointing out how you continue to contradict yourself.) If you believe your “soul” does the thinking, then your “soul” thinks of the new concept, and if the brain does not have the CAPACITY to IMPLEMENT the concept, then clearly it has to increase its capacity and expand.
You keep ignoring my concept of the brain as a receiver of a consciousness mechanism! Bigger brain receives a larger more complex consciousness.
dhw: It also explains how and why other organisms, from immune cells to pre-whales, also change their structures without any need for your God to preprogramme every change or to dabble personally. But he may have designed the mechanism enabling organisms to make the changes.DAVID: Again God-lite!
dhw: This is the feeblest of all your arguments. As you quite rightly say yourself on the “Evolution and humans” thread, “an alternative God approach is still God”.
And He will be sure His purposes are carried out. Don't you think He has purposes and goals?
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Monday, November 27, 2017, 14:29 (2553 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: …in trying to defend your hypothesis of God expanding the brain BEFORE the arrival of new concepts, you are repeatedly forced to contradict your own beliefs! That is why, as above, you keep saying things like more advanced thought is “provided by larger more complex brain”. […] If thought activates the brain, then you cannot argue that thought is provided by the brain! But precisely that is the process required if you argue that the brain had to expand BEFORE homo could THINK of the concept.
DAVID: A larger brain is capable of more complexity to develop with a larger cortex in each jump in size. That is what you miss.
If I’ve understood this convoluted sentence correctly, it means the more cells there are, the more complex the activities. How does that prove that the brain expanded before homo thought of the concept that required expansion?
DAVID: More cortex, more consciousness mechanism received for the soul to use, and as this happens the brain can remake its connections and neurons to more efficiently use its consciousness, and stay the same size for that stage of hominin development.
I thought the soul WAS the consciousness mechanism in your dualistic world. The soul/consciousness mechanism uses the cortex, and the cortex remakes its connections and neurons in order to implement the demands made by the soul. It stays the same size until it can’t cope with the new demands, and then it adds more cells and expands accordingly.
DAVID: But at the smaller size the hominin couldn't think of those tasks and concepts which only appear with the next sized brain, as shown by the artifacts.
Back you go to thought depending on the size of the brain. Once more: according to your dualism the brain does not provide the thought/concept; it provides the implementation, and only after the implementation can the artefacts appear, by which time the brains have expanded. (NB I am dealing only with your contradictions. Not the dualism versus materialism issue.)
DAVID: If they don't have the brain capacity to think of a new concept it can't be implemented. (dhw's bold)
dhw: And back you go to claiming that it is the brain that THINKS of the concept. […]if the brain does not have the CAPACITY to IMPLEMENT the concept, then clearly it has to increase its capacity and expand.
DAVID: You keep ignoring my concept of the brain as a receiver of a consciousness mechanism! Bigger brain receives a larger more complex consciousness.
You keep ignoring it yourself, whenever you talk of the brain’s capacity to think! According to you, the soul thinks and the brain receives. The more the soul thinks, the more the brain has to expand to “receive” it. The thought precedes the reception, which precedes the expansion!
dhw: [..] he may have designed the mechanism enabling organisms to make the changes.
DAVID: And He will be sure His purposes are carried out. Don't you think He has purposes and goals?
If he exists, of course he does. Yet again: I suggest his purpose is to provide an ever changing spectacle, which you call “God lite” and “humanizing”, and you suggest his purpose (in designing billions of species, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extant) was to produce humans so they would think about him, have a relationship with him, solve the problems he set them, and watch them with interest. Presumably that’s called God heavy and not “humanizing”.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Monday, November 27, 2017, 18:06 (2553 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: If I’ve understood this convoluted sentence correctly, it means the more cells there are, the more complex the activities. How does that prove that the brain expanded before homo thought of the concept that required expansion?DAVID: More cortex, more consciousness mechanism received for the soul to use, and as this happens the brain can remake its connections and neurons to more efficiently use its consciousness, and stay the same size for that stage of hominin development.
dhw: I thought the soul WAS the consciousness mechanism in your dualistic world. The soul/consciousness mechanism uses the cortex, and the cortex remakes its connections and neurons in order to implement the demands made by the soul. It stays the same size until it can’t cope with the new demands, and then it adds more cells and expands accordingly.
My position stated well, but as the cortex remakes its connections it shrinks as in sapiens. See post of 5 minutes ago.
DAVID: You keep ignoring my concept of the brain as a receiver of a consciousness mechanism! Bigger brain receives a larger more complex consciousness.dhw: You keep ignoring it yourself, whenever you talk of the brain’s capacity to think! According to you, the soul thinks and the brain receives. The more the soul thinks, the more the brain has to expand to “receive” it. The thought precedes the reception, which precedes the expansion!
The soul uses the brain to think as the receiver of consciousness. Again conceive of it as computer and software.
dhw: [..] he may have designed the mechanism enabling organisms to make the changes.
DAVID: And He will be sure His purposes are carried out. Don't you think He has purposes and goals?dhw: If he exists, of course he does. Yet again: I suggest his purpose is to provide an ever changing spectacle, which you call “God lite” and “humanizing”, and you suggest his purpose (in designing billions of species, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extant) was to produce humans so they would think about him, have a relationship with him, solve the problems he set them, and watch them with interest. Presumably that’s called God heavy and not “humanizing”.
I think it is what His personality might encompass.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Tuesday, November 28, 2017, 14:30 (2552 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: More cortex, more consciousness mechanism received for the soul to use, and as this happens the brain can remake its connections and neurons to more efficiently use its consciousness, and stay the same size for that stage of hominin development.
dhw: I thought the soul WAS the consciousness mechanism in your dualistic world. The soul/consciousness mechanism uses the cortex, and the cortex remakes its connections and neurons in order to implement the demands made by the soul. It stays the same size until it can’t cope with the new demands, and then it adds more cells and expands accordingly.
DAVID: My position stated well, but as the cortex remakes its connections it shrinks as in sapiens. See post of 5 minutes ago.
We don’t know if it actually shrank in pre-sapiens, but it makes no difference to the argument that expansion occurred when the existing brain couldn’t cope with new demands. Thank you for at long last accepting MY position. Having accepted it, I don’t know why you keep repeating the objections below.
DAVID: You keep ignoring my concept of the brain as a receiver of a consciousness mechanism! Bigger brain receives a larger more complex consciousness.
dhw: You keep ignoring it yourself, whenever you talk of the brain’s capacity to think! According to you, the soul thinks and the brain receives. The more the soul thinks, the more the brain has to expand to “receive” it. The thought precedes the reception, which precedes the expansion!
DAVID: The soul uses the brain to think as the receiver of consciousness. Again conceive of it as computer and software.
If the brain is the receiver of the soul’s thoughts, it is the soul that does the thinking and the brain that does the receiving. The computer (brain) obeys the instructions of the software (soul). And in pre-sapiens times the brain had to expand in order to implement the instructions of the soul, whereas now it complexifies. What are you objecting to?
dhw: [..] he may have designed the mechanism enabling organisms to make the changes.
DAVID: And He will be sure His purposes are carried out. Don't you think He has purposes and goals?
dhw: If he exists, of course he does. Yet again: I suggest his purpose is to provide an ever changing spectacle, which you call “God lite” and “humanizing”, and you suggest his purpose (in designing billions of species, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extant) was to produce humans so they would think about him, have a relationship with him, solve the problems he set them, and watch them with interest. Presumably that’s called God heavy and not “humanizing”.
DAVID: I think it is what His personality might encompass.
But although you think his personality might encompass watching us with interest and testing us and wanting a relationship with us, you don’t think it might encompass watching us and the rest of evolution with interest.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Tuesday, November 28, 2017, 17:59 (2552 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: My position stated well, but as the cortex remakes its connections it shrinks as in sapiens. See post of 5 minutes ago.dhw: We don’t know if it actually shrank in pre-sapiens, but it makes no difference to the argument that expansion occurred when the existing brain couldn’t cope with new demands. Thank you for at long last accepting MY position. Having accepted it, I don’t know why you keep repeating the objections below.
I have not accepted your position. It is not a stretch to assume the expansion/shrinkage as a brain learns to perform different tasks began in the earlier hominin types. Earlier brains had the samecerebrospinal fluid layer I'm sure.
DAVID: You keep ignoring my concept of the brain as a receiver of a consciousness mechanism! Bigger brain receives a larger more complex consciousness.dhw: The more the soul thinks, the more the brain has to expand to “receive” it. The thought precedes the reception, which precedes the expansion!
Again you leave out the contraction caused by complexification. Skull size never changes until the next iteration of hominin arrives!
DAVID: The soul uses the brain to think as the receiver of consciousness. Again conceive of it as computer and software.dhw: If the brain is the receiver of the soul’s thoughts, it is the soul that does the thinking and the brain that does the receiving. The computer (brain) obeys the instructions of the software (soul). And in pre-sapiens times the brain had to expand in order to implement the instructions of the soul, whereas now it complexifies. What are you objecting to?
No. The brain, having received consciousness is used by the soul for thought, just as you use your computer to reply to me. As for pre-sapiens, expansion/contraction was undoubtedly an existing mechanism passed down to us so skull size remained unchanged. Our brain now complexities and shrinks. Remember, our skulls are slightly smaller than earlier!
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Wednesday, November 29, 2017, 19:14 (2551 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: The soul/consciousness mechanism uses the cortex, and the cortex remakes its connections and neurons in order to implement the demands made by the soul. It stays the same size until it can’t cope with the new demands, and then it adds more cells and expands accordingly.
DAVID: My position stated well, but as the cortex remakes its connections it shrinks as in sapiens.
dhw: We don’t know if it actually shrank in pre-sapiens, but it makes no difference to the argument that expansion occurred when the existing brain couldn’t cope with new demands. Thank you for at long last accepting MY position. Having accepted it, I don’t know why you keep repeating the objections below.
DAVID: I have not accepted your position. It is not a stretch to assume the expansion/shrinkage as a brain learns to perform different tasks began in the earlier hominin types. Earlier brains had the same,cerebrospinal fluid layer I'm sure.
No problem. Whether it shrank or not in pre-sapiens doesn't change the position above: i.e. that expansion occurred when the existing brain couldn’t cope with the demands made on it by new concepts.
dhw: The more the soul thinks, the more the brain has to expand to “receive” it. The thought precedes the reception, which precedes the expansion!
DAVID: Again you leave out the contraction caused by complexification. Skull size never changes until the next iteration of hominin arrives!
As above, it would have complexified (and contracted, if you insist) until it could no longer cope with new demands, and then it expanded – as opposed to your previous claim that it expanded BEFORE the new demands. Of course it doesn't change until it changes! And then we have our new hominin.
dhw: If the brain is the receiver of the soul’s thoughts, it is the soul that does the thinking and the brain that does the receiving. The computer (brain) obeys the instructions of the software (soul). And in pre-sapiens times the brain had to expand in order to implement the instructions of the soul, whereas now it complexifies. What are you objecting to?
DAVID: No. The brain, having received consciousness is used by the soul for thought, just as you use your computer to reply to me. As for pre-sapiens, expansion/contraction was undoubtedly an existing mechanism passed down to us so skull size remained unchanged. Our brain now complexities and shrinks. Remember, our skulls are slightly smaller than earlier!
The soul (if it exists) does the thinking and uses the brain to implement its thought. (The Indian women want to write, and the brain changes as they learn to implement the concept of writing.) I have explained the shrinkage umpteen times, and am perfectly happy to accept that the whole system was passed down to us, though I don’t understand “so skull size remained unchanged”. It would have remained unchanged until the existing capacity could no longer cope, and then it expanded. But it reached a stage with sapiens at which brain and skull could not expand any further. None of this alters the fact that changes to the brain, whether by expansion or by complexification, with or without pre-sapiens shrinkage, are the RESULT of the effort to implement new concepts and do not take place BEFORE those concepts exist. You have agreed above that this is so, as proven by modern science, but then you keep raising objections as if somehow they showed that this is not so! None of them do.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Wednesday, November 29, 2017, 20:28 (2551 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Again you leave out the contraction caused by complexification. Skull size never changes until the next iteration of hominin arrives!dhw: As above, it would have complexified (and contracted, if you insist) until it could no longer cope with new demands, and then it expanded – as opposed to your previous claim that it expanded BEFORE the new demands. Of course it doesn't change until it changes! And then we have our new hominin.
The reason I brought up indigenous folks is they that despite their having a huge brain, they choose not to use it. If they received it because of your nebulous demands, why did they get it? Even the hobbits had fairly large brains for their body size and are considered homos but lived in caves and were quite primitive. Only the complexity of a brain which can receive a complex consciousness can conceive of future needs.
dhw: The soul (if it exists) does the thinking and uses the brain to implement its thought. (The Indian women want to write, and the brain changes as they learn to implement the concept of writing.) I have explained the shrinkage umpteen times, and am perfectly happy to accept that the whole system was passed down to us, though I don’t understand “so skull size remained unchanged”. It would have remained unchanged until the existing capacity could no longer cope, and then it expanded.
Each time by 200cc! Only God could do that.
dhw: But it reached a stage with sapiens at which brain and skull could not expand any further. None of this alters the fact that changes to the brain, whether by expansion or by complexification, with or without pre-sapiens shrinkage, are the RESULT of the effort to implement new concepts and do not take place BEFORE those concepts exist. You have agreed above that this is so, as proven by modern science, but then you keep raising objections as if somehow they showed that this is not so! None of them do.
My objection is your use of the sapiens brain expansion concept to declare that all hominins exploded their brains/ skulls by 200cc out of conceptual need.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Thursday, November 30, 2017, 13:20 (2550 days ago) @ David Turell
I am combining the two “brain complexity threads” to avoid undue repetition, and will edit accordingly. “Learning new tasks” is the more relevant heading.
DAVID: The reason I brought up indigenous folks is that despite their having a huge brain, they choose not to use it. If they received it because of your nebulous demands, why did they get it?
What do you mean “they choose not to use it”? Are they zombies? Different people use their brains in different ways – and that also applies within our western society. I gave you a partial answer to this earlier: “I don’t suppose any human would claim to have used ALL of its potential, unless you think we’ve finished learning, inventing, discovering etc.” Do you think “indigenous” people have no language, culture, social life, tools, housing? Some even believe in gods. (And in many cases, they have a far healthier attitude towards Nature than we do.) And so they received their sapiens brain in the same way as the rest of us (brain expansion until, with sapiens, it could not expand any more and complexification took over). But new concepts led some sapiens to develop the “sophistication” of western civilization - no doubt with massive complexifications of the brain (which could no longer expand) – while others stayed closer to Nature. You might say that they have not developed as much of the brain’s potential for complexity as you have. However, that doesn’t alter the fact that if the brain changes as a RESPONSE to new demands, its pre-sapiens expansions and current sapiens complexifications would not have taken place BEFORE the demands were made! And THAT is the issue we are discussing.
DAVID: I still insist that the mechanism of enlargement/shrinkage was undoubtedly present in hominin brains, and not, as you imply, invented just for sapiens. I'm sure Neanderthals had the mechanism. Since evolution builds on past developments, I am very sure my interpretation is correct.
I keep repeating that this is not the issue. I have no objection to your belief that hominin brains may have enlarged/shrunk as ours do. The question is why they expanded permanently. And you dodge that with every answer except the next one. I’ll skip some of your non-answers to avoid repetition.
DAVID: We disagree of how the next expansion happened. God did it either directly or by pre-programming.
dhw: If you agree that the brain changes in RESPONSE to concepts and efforts to implement them, as proven by modern science, and not beforehand, then it makes no sense to claim that in the past the brain changed BEFORE hominins had the concepts and tried to implement them. That would be like saying that today the Indian women’s brains rewired before they learned to write.
DAVID: And here you backtrack and twist the concept that early brains could expand/contract with new uses. Of course they did.
And here you continue to focus on what may have happened before brains expanded permanently, whereas we are trying to find out why they expanded permanently. Your only answer is “God did it either directly or by pre-programming”, and you insist that he did so BEFORE hominins came up with their new concepts. And yet you agreed when I wrote that the cortex “remakes its connections and neurons in order to implement the demands made by the soul. It stays the same size until it can’t cope with the new demands, and then it adds more cells and expands accordingly.”
dhw: You have agreed above that this is so, as proven by modern science, but then you keep raising objections as if somehow they showed that this is not so! None of them do.
DAVID: My objection is your use of the sapiens brain expansion concept to declare that all hominins exploded their brains/ skulls by 200cc out of conceptual need.
What “sapiens brain expansion concept”? The sapiens brain has stopped expanding. The argument is that all permanent pre-sapiens expansions occurred as a result of the proven process whereby brains change in RESPONSE to new demands and not beforehand. You have agreed, and yet you still insist that pre-sapiens brains underwent their permanent expansions BEFORE the demands were made!
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Thursday, November 30, 2017, 14:58 (2550 days ago) @ dhw
I am combining the two “brain complexity threads” to avoid undue repetition, and will edit accordingly. “Learning new tasks” is the more relevant heading.
DAVID: The reason I brought up indigenous folks is that despite their having a huge brain, they choose not to use it. If they received it because of your nebulous demands, why did they get it?
Dhw:... Do you think “indigenous” people have no language, culture, social life, tools, housing? Some even believe in gods.... You might say that they have not developed as much of the brain’s potential for complexity as you have. However, that doesn’t alter the fact that if the brain changes as a RESPONSE to new demands, its pre-sapiens expansions and current sapiens complexifications would not have taken place BEFORE the demands were made! And THAT is the issue we are discussing.
That is exactly the point. You have introduced the nebulous concept of 'demands'. What demands could a people with smaller brains have if as I maintain they could not think of them as possibilities. The indigenous have made small demands on their giant brains because they haven't expanded their concepts of how to live as we do. They live little beyond the H. erectus life style.
dhw: If you agree that the brain changes in RESPONSE to concepts and efforts to implement them, as proven by modern science, and not beforehand, then it makes no sense to claim that in the past the brain changed BEFORE hominins had the concepts and tried to implement them. That would be like saying that today the Indian women’s brains rewired before they learned to write.DAVID: And here you backtrack and twist the concept that early brains could expand/contract with new uses. Of course they did.
dhw: And here you continue to focus on what may have happened before brains expanded permanently, whereas we are trying to find out why they expanded permanently. Your only answer is “God did it either directly or by pre-programming”, and you insist that he did so BEFORE hominins came up with their new concepts. And yet you agreed when I wrote that the cortex “remakes its connections and neurons in order to implement the demands made by the soul. It stays the same size until it can’t cope with the new demands, and then it adds more cells and expands accordingly.”
I agreed: Of course it expands within its watery blanket, and then it contracts! The contraction is just as important as the expansion as part of the resident mechanism of the brain learning something new.. You keep trying to ignore that to develop your expansion theory.
dhw: You have agreed above that this is so, as proven by modern science, but then you keep raising objections as if somehow they showed that this is not so! None of them do.DAVID: My objection is your use of the sapiens brain expansion concept to declare that all hominins exploded their brains/ skulls by 200cc out of conceptual need.
dhw: What “sapiens brain expansion concept”? The sapiens brain has stopped expanding. The argument is that all permanent pre-sapiens expansions occurred as a result of the proven process whereby brains change in RESPONSE to new demands and not beforehand. You have agreed, and yet you still insist that pre-sapiens brains underwent their permanent expansions BEFORE the demands were made!
You agree with me that most probably pre-sapiens brains expanded and contracted. Then you keep trying to skip the contraction part in explaining why brains/skulls enlarged by 200cc. I will stick with God providing the change.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Friday, December 01, 2017, 12:09 (2549 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw:... Do you think “indigenous” people have no language, culture, social life, tools, housing? Some even believe in gods.... You might say that they have not developed as much of the brain’s potential for complexity as you have. However, that doesn’t alter the fact that if the brain changes as a RESPONSE to new demands, its pre-sapiens expansions and current sapiens complexifications would not have taken place BEFORE the demands were made! And THAT is the issue we are discussing.
DAVID: That is exactly the point. You have introduced the nebulous concept of 'demands'. What demands could a people with smaller brains have if as I maintain they could not think of them as possibilities.
What you “maintain” is a major point of disagreement. I "maintain" that they can think of the possibility, and the effort to implement the concept causes the expansion. I offered the concrete, non-nebulous example of tool-making. According to you, God expanded the brain and then bigger-brained hominin thought of tool-making. But also according to you, conceptualization has nothing to do with the size of the brain, because it is the “soul” that conceptualizes, and according to modern science, the brain changes when it tries to IMPLEMENT the concept and not before. Put the two together, and you have small-brained hominin conceptualizing the tool, and the brain expanding as a result of his efforts to make the tool.
DAVID: The indigenous have made small demands on their giant brains because they haven't expanded their concepts of how to live as we do. They live little beyond the H. erectus life style.
Thank you for using the word “demands”, which you dismissed as nebulous a moment ago. You are quite right. When the brain reached its optimum size, and therefore complexified instead of expanding, different sapiens used it to pursue whatever way of life suited them. Some ways are far more complex than others. How does the fact that some sapiens make fewer demands than others prove that your God expanded the pre-sapiens brain before new demands were made on it?
dhw: And here you continue to focus on what may have happened before brains expanded permanently, whereas we are trying to find out why they expanded permanently. Your only answer is “God did it either directly or by pre-programming”, and you insist that he did so BEFORE hominins came up with their new concepts. And yet you agreed when I wrote that the cortex “remakes its connections and neurons in order to implement the demands made by the soul. It stays the same size until it can’t cope with the new demands, and then it adds more cells and expands accordingly.”
DAVID: I agreed: Of course it expands within its watery blanket, and then it contracts! The contraction is just as important as the expansion as part of the resident mechanism of the brain learning something new. You keep trying to ignore that to develop your expansion theory.
And:
DAVID: You agree with me that most probably pre-sapiens brains expanded and contracted. Then you keep trying to skip the contraction part in explaining why brains/skulls enlarged by 200cc. I will stick with God providing the change.
There are two different sorts of contractions. We know that sapiens’ brain has contracted in the sense of shrunk, but when implementing concepts it also does a mini-expansion and then contracts back to its normal size. Shrinkage has happened because complexification is so efficient that it doesn’t need as many cells as it once did. We know that pre-sapiens brain expanded permanently. We are discussing why. It may also have mini-expanded and contracted back again as it complexified, but even if it did, quite clearly the complexification was not efficient enough to cope with the demands being made on the brain by new concepts, and so it required more capacity. Why else would it have enlarged? According to you, your God expanded it, leaving all these additional cells hanging around with nothing to do until the soul came up with new concepts they could implement. This sequence runs contrary to what modern science (and common sense) has shown quite clearly: the brain changes (whether expanding or complexifying or mini-expanding and contracting) when it tries to implement new concepts, and not beforehand. You keep trying to ignore this proven process, which is not invalidated by a possible mini-expansion/contraction process within pre-sapiens brains prior to their permanent enlargements.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Friday, December 01, 2017, 15:30 (2549 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: That is exactly the point. You have introduced the nebulous concept of 'demands'. What demands could a people with smaller brains have if as I maintain they could not think of them as possibilities.
dhw:. I "maintain" that they can think of the possibility, and the effort to implement the concept causes the expansion. I offered the concrete, non-nebulous example of tool-making. According to you, God expanded the brain and then bigger-brained hominin thought of tool-making. But also according to you, conceptualization has nothing to do with the size of the brain, because it is the “soul” that conceptualizes,
This is where we are very apart. The soul uses the brain to create concepts. Consciousness thinks using the hardware of the brain, and consciousness is the software. I've brought up this analogy many times, but you skip over it. As new uses of the existing brain are attempted, the brain has the capacity to change itself plastically, enlarges and then as it completes its transformation it shrinks with new complexity.
dhw: and according to modern science, the brain changes when it tries to IMPLEMENT the concept and not before. Put the two together, and you have small-brained hominin conceptualizing the tool, and the brain expanding as a result of his efforts to make the tool.
All we have as evidence is in our brains with the process I describe above only occurring in the same size brain and skull. Our very civilized concept filled brains and skulls are smaller than 300,000 years ago. All because we received an extra 200cc 300,000 years ago, long before any of our current concepts were envisioned. Your view is so contorted.
dhw: How does the fact that some sapiens make fewer demands than others prove that your God expanded the pre-sapiens brain before new demands were made on it?
Explained above.
DAVID: You agree with me that most probably pre-sapiens brains expanded and contracted. Then you keep trying to skip the contraction part in explaining why brains/skulls enlarged by 200cc. I will stick with God providing the change.
dhw: There are two different sorts of contractions. We know that sapiens’ brain has contracted in the sense of shrunk, but when implementing concepts it also does a mini-expansion and then contracts back to its normal size. Shrinkage has happened because complexification is so efficient that it doesn’t need as many cells as it once did. We know that pre-sapiens brain expanded permanently. We are discussing why. It may also have mini-expanded and contracted back again as it complexified, but even if it did, quite clearly the complexification was not efficient enough to cope with the demands being made on the brain by new concepts, and so it required more capacity. Why else would it have enlarged? According to you, your God expanded it, leaving all these additional cells hanging around with nothing to do until the soul came up with new concepts they could implement. This sequence runs contrary to what modern science (and common sense) has shown quite clearly: the brain changes (whether expanding or complexifying or mini-expanding and contracting) when it tries to implement new concepts, and not beforehand. You keep trying to ignore this proven process, which is not invalidated by a possible mini-expansion/contraction process within pre-sapiens brains prior to their permanent enlargements.
I've explained expansion/contraction within a given size and have not ignored the known science. That I view God as having gifted each stage of hominin with a new brain size for subsequent use, is something you cannot accept. And that view is obviously supported by the artifacts produced after that size appears. Your hunt for a conceptualizing force that creates 200cc jumps in size of course brings up the issue of how speciation occurs. Since my view is that it is with God's help or intervention we remain far apart. Your common sense is not my common sense.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Saturday, December 02, 2017, 14:15 (2548 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: … I offered the concrete, non-nebulous example of tool-making. According to you, God expanded the brain and then bigger-brained hominin thought of tool-making. But also according to you, conceptualization has nothing to do with the size of the brain, because it is the “soul” that conceptualizes,
DAVID: This is where we are very apart. The soul uses the brain to create concepts.
“Create” is not clear. The (dualist’s) “soul” creates the concepts, and the brain implements them.
DAVID: Consciousness thinks using the hardware of the brain, and consciousness is the software. I've brought up this analogy many times, but you skip over it. As new uses of the existing brain are attempted, the brain has the capacity to change itself plastically, enlarges and then as it completes its transformation it shrinks with new complexity.
The software uses the hardware of the computer to implement its concepts (“thoughts”, if you insist on this unhelpful analogy). The hardware does not produce the concepts. Consciousness uses the brain to implement its concepts. The brain does not produce the concepts (unless you believe in materialism, but that is a different discussion which I will eventually re-open.) End of analogy, which merely repeats my point. Yes, the brain has the ability to change itself plastically, i.e. to expand, contract, complexify. In sapiens, it has shrunk thanks to the efficiency of complexification. In pre-sapiens it kept reaching points at which it had to expand, and since it already had that ability, it did not need God to do the expanding. (But he may have designed the ability.)
DAVID: All we have as evidence is in our brains with the process I describe above only occurring in the same size brain and skull. Our very civilized concept filled brains and skulls are smaller than 300,000 years ago. All because we received an extra 200cc 300,000 years ago, long before any of our current concepts were envisioned. Your view is so contorted.
Once more: modern science shows that the brain changes in RESPONSE to new concepts. Our brains expanded 200cc 300,000 years ago, but (presumably) could not expand any further without unbalancing the body. So of course that last expansion preceded all subsequent concepts, because from then on, in its response to new concepts, the brain complexified more and more efficiently instead of expanding. In pre-sapiens the brain continued to expand because it kept reaching a point when complexification could not fulfil the demands. This would also have been the case in your own scenario, since your God would have expanded the brain for the same reason. But you have him doing it BEFORE new concepts made it necessary, whereas I have hominins doing it WHEN it was necessary, i.e. in response to new demands, as proven by modern science. The contortion is yours.
DAVID: I've explained expansion/contraction within a given size and have not ignored the known science. That I view God as having gifted each stage of hominin with a new brain size for subsequent use, is something you cannot accept. And that view is obviously supported by the artifacts produced after that size appears.
Once more: I do not accept it because the known science (and common sense) tells us that the brain changes as a RESULT of the effort to implement new concepts, whereas you argue that it expanded BEFORE the new concepts existed. This is only true of sapiens’ brain, which stopped expanding and instead responded to new concepts by rewiring itself. The rewiring does not precede the new concepts. With pre-sapiens, once complexification had exhausted its abilities, the implementation of the new concept (artefact) would only appear when the brain had finished changing itself (i.e. expanding). And so of course the artefacts are only found alongside the hominin whose brain had finished changing itself.
DAVID: Your hunt for a conceptualizing force that creates 200cc jumps in size of course brings up the issue of how speciation occurs. Since my view is that it is with God's help or intervention we remain far apart. Your common sense is not my common sense.
Speciation is indeed the wider issue. For me it is common sense that if the brain is known to change in the course of implementing a concept, it would not have changed before the concept existed (bearing in mind that in sapiens the permanent change is not expansion but rewiring, as illustrated by the illiterate women learning to write). For me it is likewise common sense that all organisms change as a RESULT of new demands or opportunities: e.g. fins, legs, lumbar adjustments RESULTED from pre-whales entering the water, fish moving to dry land, hominins descending from the trees, rather than the changes appearing before these actions took place. None of this precludes the existence of your God, so theism versus atheism is not an issue here.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Saturday, December 02, 2017, 15:07 (2548 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Saturday, December 02, 2017, 15:22
DAVID: Consciousness thinks using the hardware of the brain, and consciousness is the software. I've brought up this analogy many times, but you skip over it. As new uses of the existing brain are attempted, the brain has the capacity to change itself plastically, enlarges and then as it completes its transformation it shrinks with new complexity.dhw: The hardware does not produce the concepts. Consciousness uses the brain to implement its concepts.
Agreed. Concepts are thought process, immaterial.
dhw: In sapiens, it has shrunk thanks to the efficiency of complexification. In pre-sapiens it kept reaching points at which it had to expand, and since it already had that ability, it did not need God to do the expanding. (But he may have designed the ability.)
Then you will not accept my theory that pre-sapiens brains had the expand/contract mechanism. One of us is correct. No evidence can be available.
DAVID: All we have as evidence is in our brains with the process I describe above only occurring in the same size brain and skull. Our very civilized concept filled brains and skulls are smaller than 300,000 years ago. All because we received an extra 200cc 300,000 years ago, long before any of our current concepts were envisioned. Your view is so contorted.dhw: In pre-sapiens the brain continued to expand because it kept reaching a point when complexification could not fulfil the demands. This would also have been the case in your own scenario, since your God would have expanded the brain for the same reason. But you have him doing it BEFORE new concepts made it necessary, whereas I have hominins doing it WHEN it was necessary, i.e. in response to new demands, as proven by modern science.
With pre-sapiens, once complexification had exhausted its abilities, the implementation of the new concept (artefact) would only appear when the brain had finished changing itself (i.e. expanding). And so of course the artefacts are only found alongside the hominin whose brain had finished changing itself.
This last paragraph of yours is very close to my view, except for the cause of expansion. If habilis has an idea for spears, the idea is immaterial. No brain change. Once he learns to knapp flint, attach the stone point to a wooden rod, and then practices throwing it with accuracy, there is no question his brain has enlarged with all the muscle movement and visual coordination involved. But then the brain complexified and shrank. Based on human athletic training their skulls stay the same size, as in the newly newly trained Italian readers. Small ezxpansion and contraction. You have thrown out one of the major tenets of the study of evolution. Improvements build on each other. Sapiens did not invent brain expansion/contraction. Don't you think Neanderthal brains worked the same as ours? Without question, it came from earlier homos' brains. Your first paragraph ignores the sequence of use of the brain: " But you have him doing it BEFORE new concepts made it necessary, whereas I have hominins doing it WHEN it was necessary." Concepts do not enlarge brains. Only functional use of new practices does.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Sunday, December 03, 2017, 13:29 (2547 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: In sapiens, it has shrunk thanks to the efficiency of complexification. In pre-sapiens it kept reaching points at which it had to expand, and since it already had that ability, it did not need God to do the expanding. (But he may have designed the ability.)
DAVID: Then you will not accept my theory that pre-sapiens brains had the expand/contract mechanism. One of us is correct. No evidence can be available.
According to my hypothesis pre-sapiens brains most certainly had the mechanism for expansion, and eventually expanded by approx. 200 cc whenever the process of complexification could no longer cope with new demands. Whether, prior to that moment, they also contracted is irrelevant, but they may have done so. Our question is why the brain expanded permanently, and so if it did contract, the rate of contraction (through complexification) was eventually not sufficient to cope.
dhw: With pre-sapiens, once complexification had exhausted its abilities, the implementation of the new concept (artefact) would only appear when the brain had finished changing itself (i.e. expanding). And so of course the artefacts are only found alongside the hominin whose brain had finished changing itself.
DAVID: This last paragraph of yours is very close to my view, except for the cause of expansion. If habilis has an idea for spears, the idea is immaterial. No brain change. Once he learns to knapp flint, attach the stone point to a wooden rod, and then practices throwing it with accuracy, there is no question his brain has enlarged with all the muscle movement and visual coordination involved.
Precisely.The smaller brain produces the concept. The process of implementing the concept, as you have described so vividly, is what enlarges the brain. The brain did not enlarge before the concept and its implementation, so why do you say your view is different from mine?
DAVID: But then the brain complexified and shrank. Based on human athletic training their skulls stay the same size, as in the newly newly trained Italian readers. Small ezxpansion and contraction.
Now you are confining your observations to Homo sapiens. 300,000 years ago the brain/skull reached its optimum size, and so instead of reaching a point where it HAD to expand, it responded to new demands by complexifying (as with the Indian readers), and this process was so efficient that it actually shrank. The mini expansion and contraction takes place as the brain restructures itself, and this may well have also been the case in pre-sapiens until it required permanent expansion, after which the same process would have repeated itself until the next permanent expansion.
DAVID: You have thrown out one of the major tenets of the study of evolution. Improvements build on each other. Sapiens did not invent brain expansion/contraction. Don't you think Neanderthal brains worked the same as ours? Without question, it came from earlier homos' brains. Your first paragraph ignores the sequence of use of the brain: " But you have him doing it BEFORE new concepts made it necessary, whereas I have hominins doing it WHEN it was necessary." Concepts do not enlarge brains. Only functional use of new practices does.
When have I ever said improvements don’t build on each other? Of course they do. And I’m delighted to see you at last agreeing that improvement is one of the major driving forces behind evolution. In concrete terms: simple artefacts needed expansion 1. Better artefacts needed expansion 2. And when have I ever said sapiens invented the process? Complexification would have taken place in pre-sapiens’ brains just as it does in ours (maybe with mini expansions and contractions, as discussed in our last exchange), but when demands exceeded the capabilities of complexification, they expanded permanently. In us further expansion was not possible and so complexification took over. You have finished by triumphantly repeating and supporting my case against your theory! Brains were not enlarged BEFORE the concepts and the implementation of the concepts, as you have insisted until now. The small brain produced the concepts, and the implementation caused the enlargement.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Sunday, December 03, 2017, 16:09 (2547 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: According to my hypothesis pre-sapiens brains most certainly had the mechanism for expansion, and eventually expanded by approx. 200 cc whenever the process of complexification could no longer cope with new demands. Whether, prior to that moment, they also contracted is irrelevant, but they may have done so. Our question is why the brain expanded permanently, and so if it did contract, the rate of contraction (through complexification) was eventually not sufficient to cope.
The smaller brain produces the concept. The process of implementing the concept, as you have described so vividly, is what enlarges the brain. The brain did not enlarge before the concept and its implementation, so why do you say your view is different from mine?
I'm not with you on the smaller brain producing an idea/concept and that somehow forces a larger brain to appear to implement the idea. A larger brain has the capacity to implement, but we always disagree on what causes the brain to enlarge. I'm with God.
DAVID: But then the brain complexified and shrank. Based on human athletic training their skulls stay the same size, as in the newly newly trained Italian readers. Small ezxpansion and contraction.dhw:Now you are confining your observations to Homo sapiens. 300,000 years ago the brain/skull reached its optimum size, and so instead of reaching a point where it HAD to expand, it responded to new demands by complexifying (as with the Indian readers), and this process was so efficient that it actually shrank. The mini expansion and contraction takes place as the brain restructures itself, and this may well have also been the case in pre-sapiens until it required permanent expansion, after which the same process would have repeated itself until the next permanent expansion.
DAVID: You have thrown out one of the major tenets of the study of evolution. Improvements build on each other. Sapiens did not invent brain expansion/contraction. Don't you think Neanderthal brains worked the same as ours? Without question, it came from earlier homos' brains. Your first paragraph ignores the sequence of use of the brain: " But you have him doing it BEFORE new concepts made it necessary, whereas I have hominins doing it WHEN it was necessary." Concepts do not enlarge brains. Only functional use of new practices does.
dhw: When have I ever said improvements don’t build on each other? Of course they do. And I’m delighted to see you at last agreeing that improvement is one of the major driving forces behind evolution. In concrete terms: simple artefacts needed expansion 1. Better artefacts needed expansion 2. And when have I ever said sapiens invented the process? Complexification would have taken place in pre-sapiens’ brains just as it does in ours (maybe with mini expansions and contractions, as discussed in our last exchange), but when demands exceeded the capabilities of complexification, they expanded permanently.
Yes brains expanded by large amounts to allow new complexities of action and thought. You theory is that cell communities forced the action and I've said idea/concepts appear without any effect on brain size as they are immaterial. But I also maintain that increasingly complex thought requires an increasingly larger more complex brain. God provided them.
dhw: In us further expansion was not possible and so complexification took over. You have finished by triumphantly repeating and supporting my case against your theory! Brains were not enlarged BEFORE the concepts and the implementation of the concepts, as you have insisted until now. The small brain produced the concepts, and the implementation caused the enlargement.
I've supported nothing of your nebulous theory that cells get together and somehow enlarge brain/skull. Nor am I sure that further expansion is not possible, but I do believe we are at the end point. We do agree that larger brains allow more advanced implementations. We will always disagree on the cause of the immediate enlargements.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Monday, December 04, 2017, 13:56 (2546 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: The smaller brain produces the concept. The process of implementing the concept, as you have described so vividly, is what enlarges the brain. The brain did not enlarge before the concept and its implementation, so why do you say your view is different from mine?
DAVID: I'm not with you on the smaller brain producing an idea/concept and that somehow forces a larger brain to appear to implement the idea. A larger brain has the capacity to implement, but we always disagree on what causes the brain to enlarge. I'm with God.
On Saturday 2 December, you gave an exact description of the process (my bold):
DAVID: If habilis has an idea for spears, the idea is immaterial. No brain change. Once he learns to knapp flint, attach the stone point to a wooden rod, and then practices throwing it with accuracy, there is no question his brain has enlarged with all the muscle movement and visual coordination involved. But then the brain complexified and shrank.
The small-brained hominin - I don’t know which one started it all - has the idea. No brain change. He learns to implement the idea, and once he has performed all the actions you have described so vividly, “HIS BRAIN HAS ENLARGED”. Therefore his actions caused the enlargement. That is precisely my hypothesis. (“But then the brain complexified and shrank” describes the stage 300,000 years ago, when the brain presumably could not expand any further and complexification took over.) On Sunday 3 December, however, you claim the exact opposite: the smaller brain can’t have the idea, and the implementation does not cause the enlargement. I’ll stick with your post of 2 December. And you can still be with God, since he may have designed the mechanism enabling expansion. You finished by summarizing my hypothesis as if it were your own: “Concepts do not enlarge brains. Only functional use of new practices does.” Yes indeed. Concept conceived in small brain, and implementation enlarges brain. Therefore your God did not enlarge brain before concept and implementation.
dhw: When have I ever said improvements don’t build on each other? Of course they do. And I’m delighted to see you at last agreeing that improvement is one of the major driving forces behind evolution. In concrete terms: simple artefacts needed expansion 1. Better artefacts needed expansion 2. And when have I ever said sapiens invented the process? Complexification would have taken place in pre-sapiens’ brains just as it does in ours (maybe with mini expansions and contractions, as discussed in our last exchange), but when demands exceeded the capabilities of complexification, they expanded permanently.
DAVID: Yes brains expanded by large amounts to allow new complexities of action and thought. You theory is that cell communities forced the action and I've said idea/concepts appear without any effect on brain size as they are immaterial.
So have I. The concepts are thought up by the smaller brain, and as you have described above, it is the implementation that causes the expansion.
DAVID: But I also maintain that increasingly complex thought requires an increasingly larger more complex brain. God provided them.
And I maintain the same: the new concept requires expansion, which takes place just as you have described above. Your God did not expand the brain and skull BEFORE the concept and its implementation, but he may have provided the mechanism that made implementation possible.
dhw: You have finished by triumphantly repeating and supporting my case against your theory! Brains were not enlarged BEFORE the concepts and the implementation of the concepts, as you have insisted until now. The small brain produced the concepts, and the implementation caused the enlargement.
DAVID: I've supported nothing of your nebulous theory that cells get together and somehow enlarge brain/skull. Nor am I sure that further expansion is not possible, but I do believe we are at the end point. We do agree that larger brains allow more advanced implementations. We will always disagree on the cause of the immediate enlargements.
There is nothing nebulous in the hypothesis. You have described every detail in the most concrete terms possible. Maybe there could be further expansion, but there can be no doubt that at least for now, complexification has taken over, and modern science proves that the brain changes when AND NOT BEFORE it implements new concepts: expansion for hominins, complexification for sapiens. On 2 December you were in complete agreement with me on the cause of the enlargements, so we do not “always” disagree.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Monday, December 04, 2017, 17:49 (2546 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Monday, December 04, 2017, 18:23
DAVID: I've supported nothing of your nebulous theory that cells get together and somehow enlarge brain/skull. Nor am I sure that further expansion is not possible, but I do believe we are at the end point. We do agree that larger brains allow more advanced implementations. We will always disagree on the cause of the immediate enlargements.
dhw: There is nothing nebulous in the hypothesis. You have described every detail in the most concrete terms possible. Maybe there could be further expansion, but there can be no doubt that at least for now, complexification has taken over, and modern science proves that the brain changes when AND NOT BEFORE it implements new concepts: expansion for hominins, complexification for sapiens. On 2 December you were in complete agreement with me on the cause of the enlargements, so we do not “always” disagree.
I've taken the step of erasing all the back and forth to once again explain my theory about brain/skull enlargment which has been lost by you : Current evidence shows that a brain enlarges with new implementations and shrinks as it complexifies, all within the unchanging skull because of the cerebrospial fluid layer allows these modification of the brain. Ideas or concepts do not change brain size. I firmly believe this process antidates sapiens and goes back to orginial homo brains at all stages. I also believe that the development of more complex ideas can only be developed by more complex larger brains. Thus the artifacts show the level of ideas and the level of implimentation related to that brain size. I firmly believe the evidence indicates size first, use second. I do not believe the appearance of new ideas cause expansion. Implementation can only come with the next larger size of brain, but that learning process will enlarge the brain which will shrink as the brain complexifies the new controls in the new neuron network, skull not changing. We do agree that evolution builds on past developments of complexity by innovation. This theory follows that precept. And remember I'm using shorthand in writing, the role of soul being understood for brevity's sake.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Tuesday, December 05, 2017, 13:45 (2545 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: I've taken the step of erasing all the back and forth to once again explain my theory about brain/skull enlargment which has been lost by you: Current evidence shows that a brain enlarges with new implementations and shrinks as it complexifies, all within the unchanging skull because of the cerebrospial fluid layer allows these modification of the brain. Ideas or concepts do not change brain size. I firmly believe this process antidates sapiens and goes back to orginial homo brains at all stages.
I agree with all of this, but pre-sapiens skulls, unlike ours, DID change - their brains expanded permanently. Whether their brains also shrank beforehand is speculation, but is perfectly reasonable. At each stage they would have followed this process until it could no longer implement new concepts, and then came the permanent expansion.
DAVID: I also believe that the development of more complex ideas can only be developed by more complex larger brains.
What do you mean by “development…developed”. You agreed earlier that the ideas are formed by the smaller brain. “If habilis has an idea for spears, the idea is immaterial. No brain change.” The implementation requires a larger brain, and so once the idea has been implemented “his brain has enlarged”. If it's habilis's spear you're talking about, then it would have been pre-habilis's idea. If it's habilis's new concept of a more complicated spear, then the implementation would lead to the next form of bigger-brained hominin - erectus maybe? I don't know enough about all the different hominins and hominids to offer a family tree - but it would be the same tree as in your own hypothesis.
DAVID: Thus the artifacts show the level of ideas and the level of implimentation related to that brain size. I firmly believe the evidence indicates size first, use second. I do not believe the appearance of new ideas cause expansion. Implementation can only come with the next larger size of brain, but that learning process will enlarge the brain….. (dhw’s bold)
I keep emphasizing that new ideas do not cause expansion. They come from the smaller brain, and the next size of brain is caused by the learning process (implementation), as you indicate here (in bold) and explained earlier: “Once he learns to knapp flint” etc. “his brain has enlarged”. The brain finishes enlarging when he has learned to make and use his spear, and not BEFORE. Make and use first, size second, as you have shown despite your firm belief in the opposite.
DAVID: ….which will shrink as the brain complexifies the new controls in the new neuron network, skull not changing.
The skull does not change in Homo sapiens! But it expanded in pre-sapiens! If the brain expanded beyond a certain limit, the skull had to expand to accommodate it until it reached a point (sapiens) when it stopped expanding, and complexification took over.
DAVID: We do agree that evolution builds on past developments of complexity by innovation. This theory follows that precept. And remember I'm using shorthand in writing, the role of soul being understood for brevity's sake.
My theory does indeed confirm that evolution builds on past developments. Each smaller brain comes up with new concepts for more complex artefacts, the implementation of which demands and produces a bigger brain. Your summary confirms every step described in your post of 2 December: concept first, brain expands through learning process (implementation) until we reach sapiens, when it stops expanding and complexification takes over. We remain in perfect agreement, except that you refuse to agree that we agree.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Tuesday, December 05, 2017, 15:21 (2545 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: I've taken the step of erasing all the back and forth to once again explain my theory about brain/skull enlargment which has been lost by you: Current evidence shows that a brain enlarges with new implementations and shrinks as it complexifies, all within the unchanging skull because of the cerebrospial fluid layer allows these modification of the brain. Ideas or concepts do not change brain size. I firmly believe this process antidates sapiens and goes back to orginial homo brains at all stages.
I agree with all of this, but pre-sapiens skulls, unlike ours, DID change - their brains expanded permanently. Whether their brains also shrank beforehand is speculation, but is perfectly reasonable. At each stage they would have followed this process until it could no longer implement new concepts, and then came the permanent expansion.
You seem to be accepting that the current human brain is an end point, which fits with my belief that it was/is God's purpose to produce.
DAVID: I also believe that the development of more complex ideas can only be developed by more complex larger brains.dhw: What do you mean by “development…developed”. You agreed earlier that the ideas are formed by the smaller brain. “If habilis has an idea for spears, the idea is immaterial. No brain change.” The implementation requires a larger brain, and so once the idea has been implemented “his brain has enlarged”.
You do not seem to understand my theory, A small brain is limited in the concepts it can develop. Pre-habilis could not understand the concept of spear. It took a habilis-sized brain to have the concept and implement it, both occurring in the same brain, not a subsequent larger addition.
dhw: The skull does not change in Homo sapiens! But it expanded in pre-sapiens! If the brain expanded beyond a certain limit, the skull had to expand to accommodate it until it reached a point (sapiens) when it stopped expanding, and complexification took over.
You accept that pre-sapiens brains might complexify with new implementations and then you withdraw the idea! And sapiens did have brain and skull shrinkage as part of the known history.
DAVID: We do agree that evolution builds on past developments of complexity by innovation. This theory follows that precept. And remember I'm using shorthand in writing, the role of soul being understood for brevity's sake.dhw: My theory does indeed confirm that evolution builds on past developments. Each smaller brain comes up with new concepts for more complex artefacts, the implementation of which demands and produces a bigger brain. Your summary confirms every step described in your post of 2 December: concept first, brain expands through learning process (implementation) until we reach sapiens, when it stops expanding and complexification takes over. We remain in perfect agreement, except that you refuse to agree that we agree.
We have never agreed on my point that more complex concepts require a more complex larger brain to be developed and then implemented. Size first, use second. Artifacts fully support my idea. I find yours totally illogical.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Wednesday, December 06, 2017, 13:21 (2544 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: You seem to be accepting that the current human brain is an end point, which fits with my belief that it was/is God's purpose to produce.
You wrote “Nor am I sure that further expansion is not possible…” and I agreed with you, but even if it can’t expand any more (earlier you dismissed the idea of huge brains as sci-fi), I do not agree that your God would have geared the whole of evolution to the production of our brain, which is your idea of his “purpose”. An “end point” is simply the final stage of a process. If the human brain is an end point, so are the duckbilled platypus, the skull-shrinking shrew and the whale.
DAVID: You do not seem to understand my theory, A small brain is limited in the concepts it can develop. Pre-habilis could not understand the concept of spear. It took a habilis-sized brain to have the concept and implement it, both occurring in the same brain, not a subsequent larger addition.
I do not understand a theory that contradicts itself. Let’s forget pre-habilis, since you begin with habilis: “If habilis has an idea for spears, the idea is immaterial. No brain change.” So small-brained habilis has the idea. “Once he learns to knapp flint, attach the stone point to a wooden rod, and then practices throwing it with accuracy, there is no question that the brain has enlarged with all the muscle movement and visual coordination involved.” It is therefore the implementation that enlarges the brain, and so from then on we have a post-habilis with a larger brain. (You went on: “But then the brain complexified and shrank” – skipping to Homo sapiens and the Indian readers, when the brain had stopped enlarging.) According to you and to me, the concept comes first, the implementation then enlarges the brain until we reach sapiens. You have described the process perfectly.
dhw: The skull does not change in Homo sapiens! But it expanded in pre-sapiens! If the brain expanded beyond a certain limit, the skull had to expand to accommodate it until it reached a point (sapiens) when it stopped expanding, and complexification took over.
DAVID: You accept that pre-sapiens brains might complexify with new implementations and then you withdraw the idea! And sapiens did have brain and skull shrinkage as part of the known history.
I have not withdrawn the idea! I don’t believe that EVERY new concept and implementation resulted in a new species of hominin! The pre-sapiens brain would have complexified in each form of hominin until complexification proved inadequate to implement new concepts, and then it expanded exactly as you have described above. Sapiens could not expand any more, and so complexification alone had to cope, and did it so efficiently that the brain has shrunk.
dhw: We remain in perfect agreement, except that you refuse to agree that we agree.
DAVID: We have never agreed on my point that more complex concepts require a more complex larger brain to be developed and then implemented. Size first, use second. Artifacts fully support my idea. I find yours totally illogical.
Again you use “developed” ambiguously. The smaller brain has the concept (as you have described), and the brain enlarges as it implements the concept (as you have described). Concept first, implementation second, new size results from use, which is part of implementation (as you have described). The concept may be still further “developed” in the new larger brain, but in due course, once complexification is inadequate, implementation of the further developed concept will again require further expansion. Each new, further developed artefact can only appear when the brain has finished its latest stage of enlargement (as you have described). That is why you will only see the respective artefacts together with the fossils of the larger-brained hominin that implemented the concept. I’m sorry that you find your perfect description of the process “totally illogical”.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Wednesday, December 06, 2017, 18:32 (2544 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: You seem to be accepting that the current human brain is an end point, which fits with my belief that it was/is God's purpose to produce.
dhw: If the human brain is an end point, so are the duckbilled platypus, the skull-shrinking shrew and the whale.
Very likely evolution is over is not an unlikely possibility.
DAVID: You do not seem to understand my theory, A small brain is limited in the concepts it can develop. Pre-habilis could not understand the concept of spear. It took a habilis-sized brain to have the concept and implement it, both occurring in the same brain, not a subsequent larger addition.dhw: According to you and to me, the concept comes first, the implementation then enlarges the brain until we reach sapiens. You have described the process perfectly.
The issue between us is how the enlargement is caused. I say God does it with each new species with a larger skull and brain.
DAVID: You accept that pre-sapiens brains might complexify with new implementations and then you withdraw the idea! And sapiens did have brain and skull shrinkage as part of the known history.dhw: I have not withdrawn the idea! I don’t believe that EVERY new concept and implementation resulted in a new species of hominin! The pre-sapiens brain would have complexified in each form of hominin until complexification proved inadequate to implement new concepts, and then it expanded exactly as you have described above. Sapiens could not expand any more, and so complexification alone had to cope, and did it so efficiently that the brain has shrunk.
I think sapiens are the endpoint of evolution, so expansion is unlikely.
dhw: We remain in perfect agreement, except that you refuse to agree that we agree.
We do not agree as to the cause of skull/brain expansion. God does it.
DAVID: We have never agreed on my point that more complex concepts require a more complex larger brain to be developed and then implemented. Size first, use second. Artifacts fully support my idea. I find yours totally illogical.dhw: Again you use “developed” ambiguously.
Not ambiguous at all. Only a more complex brain can develop more complex concepts. When one thinks about a new approach, that is development of an idea. I don't understand your problem with the word.
dhw:The smaller brain has the concept (as you have described), and the brain enlarges as it implements the concept (as you have described). Concept first, implementation second, new size results from use, which is part of implementation (as you have described). The concept may be still further “developed” in the new larger brain, but in due course, once complexification is inadequate, implementation of the further developed concept will again require further expansion.
Only a larger more complex cortex can think of new more complex concepts. Size must come first. I will not give on that point
dhw: Each new, further developed artefact can only appear when the brain has finished its latest stage of enlargement (as you have described). That is why you will only see the respective artefacts together with the fossils of the larger-brained hominin that implemented the concept. I’m sorry that you find your perfect description of the process “totally illogical”.
It's not illogical. The difference in our approaches is the cause of the enlargement. I'm with God.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Thursday, December 07, 2017, 13:20 (2543 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: …the current human brain is an end point, which fits with my belief that it was/is God’s purpose to produce.
dhw: If the human brain is an end point, so are the duckbilled platypus, the skull-shrinking shrew and the whale.
DAVID: Very likely evolution is over is not an unlikely possibility.
You and I will never know. But I was merely indicating that “end point” does not mean “purpose”. The rest of your post is mainly devoted to your insistence that only after your God had enlarged the brain and skull were hominins, hominids and homos capable of thinking up new concepts and implementing them. You reminded me earlier of your dualistic belief that the brain is NOT the source of ideas, but clearly I am supposed to ignore the obvious contradiction when you say: “Only a larger more complex cortex can think of new more complex concepts.”
I am also supposed to ignore the contradictions I highlighted in my last post and which you have left out altogether in your responses. These simply repeat your belief that your God expanded the brain before it produced and implemented the new concepts, as if the repetition somehow removed the contradictions. Here once again is the section you have chosen not to respond to:
DAVID: You do not seem to understand my theory, A small brain is limited in the concepts it can develop. Pre-habilis could not understand the concept of spear. It took a habilis-sized brain to have the concept and implement it, both occurring in the same brain, not a subsequent larger addition.
dhw: I do not understand a theory that contradicts itself. Let’s forget pre-habilis, since you begin with habilis: “If habilis has an idea for spears, the idea is immaterial. No brain change.” So small-brained habilis has the idea. “Once he learns to knapp flint, attach the stone point to a wooden rod, and then practices throwing it with accuracy, there is no question that the brain has enlarged with all the muscle movement and visual coordination involved.” It is therefore the implementation that enlarges the brain, and so from then on we have a post-habilis with a larger brain. (You went on: “But then the brain complexified and shrank” – skipping to Homo sapiens and the Indian readers, when the brain had stopped enlarging.) According to you and to me, the concept comes first, the implementation then enlarges the brain until we reach sapiens, when it can expand no further. You have described the process perfectly. (My bold)
Do you now wish to rescind all the above? If not, how do you square it with your insistence that your God had to enlarge the brain BEFORE the idea (which did not change the brain) and BEFORE the implementation (which enlarged the brain)? In other words, why must the brain be enlarged before it enlarges itself?
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Thursday, December 07, 2017, 19:18 (2543 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: but clearly I am supposed to ignore the obvious contradiction when you say: “Only a larger more complex cortex can think of new more complex concepts.”
I am also supposed to ignore the contradictions I highlighted in my last post and which you have left out altogether in your responses. These simply repeat your belief that your God expanded the brain before it produced and implemented the new concepts, as if the repetition somehow removed the contradictions. Here once again is the section you have chosen not to respond to:
DAVID: You do not seem to understand my theory, A small brain is limited in the concepts it can develop. Pre-habilis could not understand the concept of spear. It took a habilis-sized brain to have the concept and implement it, both occurring in the same brain, not a subsequent larger addition.
dhw: I do not understand a theory that contradicts itself. Let’s forget pre-habilis, since you begin with habilis: “If habilis has an idea for spears, the idea is immaterial. No brain change.” So small-brained habilis has the idea. “Once he learns to knapp flint, attach the stone point to a wooden rod, and then practices throwing it with accuracy, there is no question that the brain has enlarged with all the muscle movement and visual coordination involved.” It is therefore the implementation that enlarges the brain, and so from then on we have a post-habilis with a larger brain. (You went on: “But then the brain complexified and shrank” – skipping to Homo sapiens and the Indian readers, when the brain had stopped enlarging.) According to you and to me, the concept comes first, the implementation then enlarges the brain until we reach sapiens, when it can expand no further. You have described the process perfectly. (My bold)
This is a total misinterpretation of what I have presented. It leave out brain contraction ability. What happened to your noting that my theory that brain enlargement and contraction occurred in all previous pre-sapiens might be correct. All enlargement from implementation was followed by complexity reorganization and thus contraction, occurring in the same size skull at each stage of evolution. Thus on the way from Lucy (400cc) there were rough jumps of 200cc in each stage. And in each stage new concepts could be developed by the larger brain and implemented meaning even further slight enlargement within the same sized skull. You leave out the contraction part!
dhw: Do you now wish to rescind all the above? If not, how do you square it with your insistence that your God had to enlarge the brain BEFORE the idea (which did not change the brain) and BEFORE the implementation (which enlarged the brain)? In other words, why must the brain be enlarged before it enlarges itself?
I don't have to rescind what I did not present. You have attemped to imply that when I discussed expansion that forced a 200cc expansion. I have never presented that view. I will maintain that artifacts prove the full abilities of the size of the brain being considered. And that size brain must be present to produce the artifacts , but first also develop the concepts from which the artifacts come.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Friday, December 08, 2017, 13:36 (2542 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: You reminded me earlier of your dualistic belief that the brain is NOT the source of ideas, but clearly I am supposed to ignore the obvious contradiction when you say: “Only a larger more complex cortex can think of new more complex concepts.”
You continue to ignore this contradiction.
DAVID: You do not seem to understand my theory, A small brain is limited in the concepts it can develop. Pre-habilis could not understand the concept of spear. It took a habilis-sized brain to have the concept and implement it, both occurring in the same brain, not a subsequent larger addition.
dhw: I do not understand a theory that contradicts itself. Let’s forget pre-habilis, since you begin with habilis: “If habilis has an idea for spears, the idea is immaterial. No brain change.” So small-brained habilis has the idea. “Once he learns to knapp flint, attach the stone point to a wooden rod, and then practices throwing it with accuracy, there is no question that the brain has enlarged with all the muscle movement and visual coordination involved.” It is therefore the implementation that enlarges the brain, and so from then on we have a post-habilis with a larger brain. (You went on: “But then the brain complexified and shrank” – skipping to Homo sapiens and the Indian readers, when the brain had stopped enlarging.) According to you and to me, the concept comes first, the implementation then enlarges the brain until we reach sapiens, when it can expand no further. You have described the process perfectly.(My bold)
DAVID: This is a total misinterpretation of what I have presented. It leave out brain contraction ability. What happened to your noting that my theory that brain enlargement and contraction occurred in all previous pre-sapiens might be correct.
It might be correct, but even if it is, clearly it could not contract enough to cope with certain new concepts, and that is when it had to expand permanently, just as you have described.
DAVID: All enlargement from implementation was followed by complexity reorganization and thus contraction, occurring in the same size skull at each stage of evolution. Thus on the way from Lucy (400cc) there were rough jumps of 200cc in each stage. And in each stage new concepts could be developed by the larger brain and implemented meaning even further slight enlargement within the same sized skull. You leave out the contraction part!
Contraction remains a “might be correct”, but it is you who quite rightly left it out of your description because it is irrelevant to the permanent expansion (the approx. 200 cc jump) which we are trying to explain and which you have described so perfectly. After that, once again there is a process of complexification (with possible contraction) within the same size skull until the next round of new concepts demands the next permanent expansion: new concepts first, without brain change, followed by implementation and enlargement.
dhw: Do you now wish to rescind all the above? If not, how do you square it with your insistence that your God had to enlarge the brain BEFORE the idea (which did not change the brain) and BEFORE the implementation (which enlarged the brain)? In other words, why must the brain be enlarged before it enlarges itself?
DAVID: I don't have to rescind what I did not present. You have attemped to imply that when I discussed expansion that forced a 200cc expansion.
What else could it have been? You specified that once the implementation process was complete, the brain had enlarged. And that makes perfect sense!
DAVID: I have never presented that view. I will maintain that artifacts prove the full abilities of the size of the brain being considered. And that size brain must be present to produce the artifacts , but first also develop the concepts from which the artifacts come.
Yes, the artefacts appeared when the brain had reached its next size, precisely as you have described. Please reread what you wrote (reproduced above). It makes no sense to claim that the idea, which did NOT change the brain, did not precede the enlargement, which took place through the process of implementing the concept by knapping flint, learning to throw etc., with “all the muscle movement and visual coordination involved”! Once more: concept with no brain change (to smaller brain) – implementation enlarges brain, and artefacts are then present – newly enlarged brain carries on complexifying happily for a while (possible expansions and contractions within same size skull) until tough new concepts arrive with no brain change – implementation enlarges brain again… – until we reach Homo sapiens, when enlargement ends and complexification takes over. This is exactly what you described, and I can find no fault in the reasoning.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Friday, December 08, 2017, 21:10 (2542 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: You reminded me earlier of your dualistic belief that the brain is NOT the source of ideas, but clearly I am supposed to ignore the obvious contradiction when you say: “Only a larger more complex cortex can think of new more complex concepts.”
You continue to ignore this contradiction.
I maintain that only a larger more complex brain (pre-frontal cortex) can conceive of more complex concepts. Our sapiens brain arrived 300,000 years ago, but it took until 10,000 years ago that we began to form all the concepts and knowledge we have today.
DAVID: You do not seem to understand my theory, A small brain is limited in the concepts it can develop. Pre-habilis could not understand the concept of spear. It took a habilis-sized brain to have the concept and implement it, both occurring in the same brain, not a subsequent larger addition.dhw: I do not understand a theory that contradicts itself.
DAVID: This is a total misinterpretation of what I have presented. It leave out brain contraction ability. What happened to your noting that my theory that brain enlargement and contraction occurred in all previous pre-sapiens might be correct.
dhw: It might be correct, but even if it is, clearly it could not contract enough to cope with certain new concepts, and that is when it had to expand permanently, just as you have described.
DAVID: All enlargement from implementation was followed by complexity reorganization and thus contraction, occurring in the same size skull at each stage of evolution. Thus on the way from Lucy (400cc) there were rough jumps of 200cc in each stage. And in each stage new concepts could be developed by the larger brain and implemented meaning even further slight enlargement within the same sized skull. You leave out the contraction part!
dhw: Contraction remains a “might be correct”, but it is you who quite rightly left it out of your description because it is irrelevant to the permanent expansion (the approx. 200 cc jump) which we are trying to explain and which you have described so perfectly.
I've never left out the idea that pre-sapiens brains had the same plexification/contraction ability we see now.
dhw: Do you now wish to rescind all the above? If not, how do you square it with your insistence that your God had to enlarge the brain BEFORE the idea (which did not change the brain) and BEFORE the implementation (which enlarged the brain)? In other words, why must the brain be enlarged before it enlarges itself?DAVID: I don't have to rescind what I did not present. You have attemped to imply that when I discussed expansion that forced a 200cc expansion.
dhw: What else could it have been? You specified that once the implementation process was complete, the brain had enlarged. And that makes perfect sense!
It enlarged and then contracted as I've maintained over and over!
DAVID: I have never presented that view. I will maintain that artifacts prove the full abilities of the size of the brain being considered. And that size brain must be present to produce the artifacts , but first also develop the concepts from which the artifacts come.dhw: Yes, the artefacts appeared when the brain had reached its next size, precisely as you have described. Please reread what you wrote (reproduced above).
Reproducing what you have misinterpreted gets us nowhere. The development of concepts in sapiens as described shows a big brain must appear and then information, knowledge and concepts are developed, a slightly smaller brain as a final result. The key is the apperance of a highly complex pre-frontal-lobe cortex, which Neanderthals with a bigger brain probably did not have. And of course I think God created the sapiens development.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Saturday, December 09, 2017, 14:10 (2541 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: You reminded me earlier of your dualistic belief that the brain is NOT the source of ideas, but clearly I am supposed to ignore the obvious contradiction when you say: “Only a larger more complex cortex can think of new more complex concepts.” You continue to ignore this contradiction.
DAVID: I maintain that only a larger more complex brain (pre-frontal cortex) can conceive of more complex concepts.
So you maintain that only the “soul” can conceive concepts, but only the brain can conceive more complex concepts. (On the subject of the 290,000 year "gap", see summary below.)
DAVID: I've never left out the idea that pre-sapiens brains had the same plexification/contraction ability we see now.
There are two forms of contraction: one is the minor expansion/contraction (back to normal size) reported to take place in modern brains with each new implementation. This may also have taken place in pre-sapiens brains. The other is the modern brain’s major shrinkage by approx. 150 cc. - I suggest as a result of increasingly efficient complexification, which I would have thought highly unlikely in pre-sapiens, since the brain kept having to expand. Our discussion centres on the major, permanent expansion of pre-sapiens brains. You maintain that all the learning and practising you described led to nothing but a minor expansion/ contraction, and your “then the brain complexified and shrank” only meant a return to normal size, which therefore has nothing to do with our subject of permanent pre-sapiens expansion.
In the light of all this, I will try to summarize your argument, and you can correct me if I’m wrong. The “soul” and not the brain produces concepts, but only a larger brain can produce more complex concepts. Implementation of the spear concept caused the brain to expand and then return to the same size as before. (Maybe even to shrink?) Then your God came along and expanded the brain and skull permanently. Only then could the brain think of more complex concepts, although it doesn’t think of concepts, and then once again it implemented them by minor expansions/contractions until God came along again and repeated the process. He finished expanding the brain approx. 300,000 years ago and left it to complexify (while momentarily expanding and contracting) but for some reason – not offered by you – it didn’t do very much for 290,000 years.
My argument: regardless of whether the brain is or is not the source of thought (which includes conceptualization), it has been proven that implementation of concepts requires changes to the brain. In pre-sapiens, although complexification may have coped with minor advances, major implementations would have required permanent expansion. This process of new concepts (or further development of existing concepts) being followed by implementation and consequent permanent expansion continued until the brain reached its optimum size (with sapiens), whereupon complexification took over from expansion and was so efficient that the brain shrank. Acceleration after comparatively slow progress for 290,000 years is explained through individual discoveries and innovations capable of rapid development by succeeding generations. Even if you disagree with this hypothesis, can you find fault with its reasoning, bearing in mind that it does not in any way preclude the existence of a God?
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Saturday, December 09, 2017, 21:49 (2541 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: I maintain that only a larger more complex brain (pre-frontal cortex) can conceive of more complex concepts.
dhw: So you maintain that only the “soul” can conceive concepts, but only the brain can conceive more complex concepts. (On the subject of the 290,000 year "gap", see summary below.)
The soul conceives new concepts by using a more complex brain cortex. For example, in teenagers they cannot fully evaluate dangerous situations and other considerations until the prefrontal areas are fully developed at age 26+/-.
DAVID: I've never left out the idea that pre-sapiens brains had the same plexification/contraction ability we see now.dhw: There are two forms of contraction: one is the minor expansion/contraction (back to normal size) reported to take place in modern brains with each new implementation. This may also have taken place in pre-sapiens brains. The other is the modern brain’s major shrinkage by approx. 150 cc. - I suggest as a result of increasingly efficient complexification, which I would have thought highly unlikely in pre-sapiens, since the brain kept having to expand.
I can accept this much of your theory. But our highly complex brain is not a pre-sapiens brain and with its high complexity may well have developed a method of much enhanced complexity to allow the shrinkage. Pre-sapiens present a different issue, lack of enhanced complexity, and therefore a different requirement for enlargement.
dhw: In the light of all this, I will try to summarize your argument, and you can correct me if I’m wrong. The “soul” and not the brain produces concepts, but only a larger brain can produce more complex concepts. Implementation of the spear concept caused the brain to expand and then return to the same size as before. (Maybe even to shrink?) Then your God came along and expanded the brain and skull permanently. Only then could the brain think of more complex concepts, although it doesn’t think of concepts, and then once again it implemented them by minor expansions/contractions until God came along again and repeated the process. He finished expanding the brain approx. 300,000 years ago and left it to complexify (while momentarily expanding and contracting) but for some reason – not offered by you – it didn’t do very much for 290,000 years.
You summary is close enough not to comment. The 290,000 years I have explained. Until 10,000 years ago humans and pre-humans lived in what I name as survival mode. If you have ever camped out you will understand. One needs clothing, shelter, a food source, and a small group of folks to live with resulting in some simple but necessary societal rules. With agriculture developing, we really began to civilized and use our brain much more fully. Why was it so big 300,000 years ago if we hardly had a need for it? Where were the driving concepts you propose? Here is where the teenager comment returns: it was available to be learned to be used.
dhw: My argument: regardless of whether the brain is or is not the source of thought (which includes conceptualization), it has been proven that implementation of concepts requires changes to the brain. In pre-sapiens, although complexification may have coped with minor advances, major implementations would have required permanent expansion. This process of new concepts (or further development of existing concepts) being followed by implementation and consequent permanent expansion continued until the brain reached its optimum size (with sapiens), whereupon complexification took over from expansion and was so efficient that the brain shrank. Acceleration after comparatively slow progress for 290,000 years is explained through individual discoveries and innovations capable of rapid development by succeeding generations. Even if you disagree with this hypothesis, can you find fault with its reasoning, bearing in mind that it does not in any way preclude the existence of a God?
Of course I disagree. Note my preceding comments on use and size.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Monday, December 11, 2017, 15:28 (2539 days ago) @ David Turell
An article reviews studies of the brain as decisions are made. The approach is purely materialism as consciousness in its active role is not discussed:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/a-new-collaborative-approach-to-investigate-what-hap...
"Decisions span a vast range of complexity. There are really simple ones: Do I want an apple or a piece of cake with my lunch? Then there are much more complicated ones: Which car should I buy, or which career should I choose?
"Neuroscientists like me have identified some of the individual parts of the brain that contribute to making decisions like these. Different areas process sounds, sights or pertinent prior knowledge. But understanding how these individual players work together as a team is still a challenge, not only in understanding decision-making, but for the whole field of neuroscience.
***
"Individual neuroscience labs have already uncovered a lot about how particular brain areas contribute to decision-making.
"Say you’re choosing between an apple or a piece of cake to go with lunch. First, you need to know that apples and cake are the two options. That requires action from brain areas that process sensory information – your eyes see the apple’s bright red skin, while your nose takes in the sweet smell of cake.
"Those sensory areas often connect to what we call association areas. Researchers have traditionally thought they play a role in putting different pieces of information together. By collating information from the eyes, the ears and so on, the association areas may give a more coherent, big-picture view of what’s happening in the world.
"And why choose one action over another? That’s a question for the brain’s reward circuitry, which is critical in weighing the value of different options. You know that the cake will taste sweetly delicious now, but you might regret it when you’re heading to the gym later.
"Then, there’s the frontal cortex, which is believed to play a role in controlling voluntary action. Research suggests it’s involved in committing to a particular action once enough incoming information has arrived. It’s the part of the brain that might tell you the piece of cake smells so good that it’s worth all of the calories.
***
"At first pass, the setup we’re using for the International Brain Laboratory doesn’t look very natural at all. The mouse has a little device that it uses to report decisions – it’s actually a wheel from a Lego set. For example, it might learn that when it sees an image of a vertical grating and turns the wheel until the image is centered, it gets a reward. If you think about what foraging is – exploring the environment, trying to find rewards, making use of sensory signals and prior knowledge – this simple Lego wheel activity does capture its essence.
"We really had to think about the trade-off between having a behavior that was complex enough to give us insight into interesting neural computations, and one that was simple enough that it could be implemented in the same way in many different experimental laboratories. The balance we struck was a decision-making task that starts simple and becomes more and more complex as an individual animal achieves different stages of training.
"Even in the simplest, very earliest stage we’re looking at, where the animals are just making voluntary movements, they’re deciding when to make a movement to harvest a reward. I’m sure we can go much further, but even if that’s as far as we get, having neural measurements from all over the brain during a simple behavior like this will be very interesting. We don’t know how it happens in the brain that you decide when to take a particular action and how to execute that action. Having neural measurements from all over the brain of what happened just before the animal spontaneously decided to go and get a reward will be a huge step forward." (my bold)
Comment: An entirely mechanistic approach to the brain as a mechanical computer. It will not tell us how consciousness appears or works. Just how the brain responds to the thoughts that are developed by consciousness in charge of the brain.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Tuesday, December 12, 2017, 09:14 (2539 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: I maintain that only a larger more complex brain (pre-frontal cortex) can conceive of more complex concepts.
dhw: So you maintain that only the “soul” can conceive concepts, but only the brain can conceive more complex concepts…
DAVID: The soul conceives new concepts by using a more complex brain cortex. For example, in teenagers they cannot fully evaluate dangerous situations and other considerations until the prefrontal areas are fully developed at age 26+/-.
As usual, the word “using” covers a multitude of activities, but it does not cover “conceiving concepts” if you insist that only the soul can conceive concepts. And I doubt if any of us can “fully evaluate” anything! The brain provides information, which it continues to do throughout life, and if the soul exists, it learns from experience (just like immune cells), and in turn uses the brain to implement its concepts. As the child's brain develops, it acquires and passes on more information and can implement more concepts provided by the soul, which is fed by the never-ending flow of information. But if only a more complex cortex can provide the evaluation, and hence all the concepts and decisions relating to the information (as in your first statement), you can hardly avoid the conclusion that thought stems from the brain. It may well do so. (Materialism versus dualism.)
dhw: There are two forms of contraction: one is the minor expansion/contraction (back to normal size) reported to take place in modern brains with each new implementation. This may also have taken place in pre-sapiens brains. The other is the modern brain’s major shrinkage by approx. 150 cc. - I suggest as a result of increasingly efficient complexification, which I would have thought highly unlikely in pre-sapiens, since the brain kept having to expand.
DAVID: I can accept this much of your theory. But our highly complex brain is not a pre-sapiens brain and with its high complexity may well have developed a method of much enhanced complexity to allow the shrinkage. Pre-sapiens present a different issue, lack of enhanced complexity, and therefore a different requirement for enlargement.
Why do you say “but”? You are repeating my own hypothesis in different words. Yes, our brain is different because instead of expanding, it complexifies. And yes, increased efficiency of complexification may have resulted in shrinkage. And yes, complexification could not cope with pre-sapiens’ demands, and so the brain had to expand.
dhw: In the light of all this, I will try to summarize your argument, and you can correct me if I’m wrong. (I shan’t repeat the summary here.)
DAVID: Your summary is close enough not to comment. The 290,000 years I have explained. Until 10,000 years ago humans and pre-humans lived in what I name as survival mode. If you have ever camped out you will understand. One needs clothing, shelter, a food source, and a small group of folks to live with resulting in some simple but necessary societal rules. With agriculture developing, we really began to civilized and use our brain much more fully. Why was it so big 300,000 years ago if we hardly had a need for it? Where were the driving concepts you propose? Here is where the teenager comment returns: it was available to be learned to be used.
An excellent summary of the history, and so I don’t understand why you find the process so mysterious. The brain reached its optimum size 300,000 years ago. For 290,000 years humans lived just as some of the remote tribes live now. Why not? Those tribes have managed perfectly well, and would no doubt go on doing so if we western know-alls didn’t keep interfering. But 10,000 or so years ago certain individuals came up with new ideas, and these were capable of rapid development. The optimum-sized brain was not waiting around to be used - it was INADEQUATE! And so the new uses demanded a new technique for coping: namely, enhanced complexification instead of the no longer possible expansion. The driving concept would have been the same mixture of survival and improvement (which you have acknowledged as a “major tenet”) that has driven all of evolution. Why did it take so long? All of a sudden 290,000 years is a long time. According to you it took your God about 3 million years to work our way from a lumbar change to full bipedalism. Homo erectus lived for at least a million years without making a great deal of progress. Why do you think your God left him hanging around all that time before doing the brain expansion trick? It might be more fitting to marvel at the speed with which sapiens developed his new concepts than to wonder why it took him 290,000 years to conceive them.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Wednesday, December 13, 2017, 01:01 (2538 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: I maintain that only a larger more complex brain (pre-frontal cortex) can conceive of more complex concepts.
dhw: So you maintain that only the “soul” can conceive concepts, but only the brain can conceive more complex concepts…
DAVID: The soul conceives new concepts by using a more complex brain cortex. For example, in teenagers they cannot fully evaluate dangerous situations and other considerations until the prefrontal areas are fully developed at age 26+/-.dhw: As usual, the word “using” covers a multitude of activities, but it does not cover “conceiving concepts” if you insist that only the soul can conceive concepts. And I doubt if any of us can “fully evaluate” anything! The brain provides information, which it continues to do throughout life, and if the soul exists, it learns from experience (just like immune cells), and in turn uses the brain to implement its concepts.
This seems reasonable if you accept that consciousness/soul run the brain.
> dhw: As the child's brain develops, it acquires and passes on more information and can implement more concepts provided by the soul, which is fed by the never-ending flow of information. But if only a more complex cortex can provide the evaluation, and hence all the concepts and decisions relating to the information (as in your first statement), you can hardly avoid the conclusion that thought stems from the brain. It may well do so. (Materialism versus dualism.)
And my point is the soul/consciousness runs the brail to create thought.
DAVID: I can accept this much of your theory. But our highly complex brain is not a pre-sapiens brain and with its high complexity may well have developed a method of much enhanced complexity to allow the shrinkage. Pre-sapiens present a different issue, lack of enhanced complexity, and therefore a different requirement for enlargement.
dhw: Why do you say “but”? You are repeating my own hypothesis in different words. Yes, our brain is different because instead of expanding, it complexifies. And yes, increased efficiency of complexification may have resulted in shrinkage. And yes, complexification could not cope with pre-sapiens’ demands, and so the brain had to expand.
What demands in a survival type life? Minimal compared to what our brain does now. I don't see the explosion pressures you are looking for.
An excellent summary of the history, and so I don’t understand why you find the process so mysterious. The brain reached its optimum size 300,000 years ago. For 290,000 years humans lived just as some of the remote tribes live now. Why not? Those tribes have managed perfectly well, and would no doubt go on doing so if we western know-alls didn’t keep interfering. But 10,000 or so years ago certain individuals came up with new ideas, and these were capable of rapid development. The optimum-sized brain was not waiting around to be used - it was INADEQUATE!
Not inadequate, but enlarged with many more neurons and branching axons and synapses. Then it could easily the exploding knowledge and thought over the past 10,000 years.
dhw: And so the new uses demanded a new technique for coping: namely, enhanced complexification instead of the no longer possible expansion.
I believe it was highly complex to begin with, waiting for us to use it, but we had to learn to use it.
dhw: The driving concept would have been the same mixture of survival and improvement (which you have acknowledged as a “major tenet”) that has driven all of evolution. Why did it take so long? All of a sudden 290,000 years is a long time. According to you it took your God about 3 million years to work our way from a lumbar change to full bipedalism. Homo erectus lived for at least a million years without making a great deal of progress. Why do you think your God left him hanging around all that time before doing the brain expansion trick?
I don't know why each jump in size took so long. Ask God. We have to accept what we see.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Wednesday, December 13, 2017, 13:32 (2537 days ago) @ David Turell
I am editing this exchange in an effort to keep it more concise.
DAVID: I maintain that only a larger more complex brain (pre-frontal cortex) can conceive of more complex concepts. (dhw’s bold)
dhw: So you maintain that only the “soul” can conceive concepts, but only the brain can conceive more complex concepts…
DAVID: The soul conceives new concepts by using a more complex brain cortex.
dhw: ...the word “using”…does not cover “conceiving concepts” if you insist that only the soul can conceive concepts.[...] The brain provides information, which it continues to do throughout life, and if the soul exists, it learns from experience (just like immune cells), and in turn uses the brain to implement its concepts.
DAVID: This seems reasonable if you accept that consciousness/soul run the brain.
I do accept that consciousness runs the brain, no matter whether consciousness is a separate entity (dualism) or is itself engendered by the brain (materialism). But if, as you believe, consciousness is a separate entity, it cannot be the larger more complex brain that conceives of more complex concepts!
dhw: You are repeating my own hypothesis in different words. Yes, our brain is different because instead of expanding, it complexifies. And yes, increased efficiency of complexification may have resulted in shrinkage. And yes, complexification could not cope with pre-sapiens’ demands, and so the brain had to expand.
DAVID: What demands in a survival type life? Minimal compared to what our brain does now. I don't see the explosion pressures you are looking for.
And now you changing the subject! You know perfectly well that I regard survival and IMPROVEMENT as the driving forces, and you have accepted improvement as a “major tenet” of evolution.
Dhw: An excellent summary of the history, and so I don’t understand why you find the process so mysterious. The brain reached its optimum size 300,000 years ago. For 290,000 years humans lived just as some of the remote tribes live now. Why not? Those tribes have managed perfectly well, and would no doubt go on doing so if we western know-alls didn’t keep interfering. But 10,000 or so years ago certain individuals came up with new ideas, and these were capable of rapid development. The optimum-sized brain was not waiting around to be used - it was INADEQUATE!
DAVID: Not inadequate, but enlarged with many more neurons and branching axons and synapses. Then it could easily the exploding knowledge and thought over the past 10,000 years.
Over the past 10,000 years the brain has COMPLEXIFIED, not enlarged (as pre-sapiens brains were able to do). In fact, as you keep telling us, it has shrunk. And so the optimum-sized sapiens brain was not hanging around waiting to be made full use of. It had to respond to new concepts by COMPLEXIFYING, as proven by modern science.
DAVID: I believe it was highly complex to begin with, waiting for us to use it, but we had to learn to use it.
So instead of claiming it was the large brain hanging around waiting to be used, you now say it was the complex brain that was hanging around to be used. Of course it was highly complex to begin with, but now it is even more complex. Or do you reject the findings of modern science, which tell us that the brain changes whenever it implements new concepts? Or do you believe that these changes leave the brain exactly as it was 300,000 years ago?
dhw: The driving concept would have been the same mixture of survival and improvement (which you have acknowledged as a “major tenet”) that has driven all of evolution. Why did it take so long? All of a sudden 290,000 years is a long time. According to you it took your God about 3 million years to work our way from a lumbar change to full bipedalism. Homo erectus lived for at least a million years without making a great deal of progress. Why do you think your God left him hanging around all that time before doing the brain expansion trick?
DAVID: I don't know why each jump in size took so long. Ask God. We have to accept what we see.
Then instead of asking why it took sapiens 290,000 years (no big deal in the grand scheme of evolution) to come up with his new “civilizing” concepts, why don’t you just accept what you see?
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Wednesday, December 13, 2017, 14:46 (2537 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: This seems reasonable if you accept that consciousness/soul run the brain.
dhw: I do accept that consciousness runs the brain, no matter whether consciousness is a separate entity (dualism) or is itself engendered by the brain (materialism). But if, as you believe, consciousness is a separate entity, it cannot be the larger more complex brain that conceives of more complex concepts!
Remember I conceive the brain as a computer. A larger more complex software in a more advanced computer allows more complex operations. You and I do simple things, writing, receiving news and emails. But think of 3-D printing objects! My soul/consciousness operates the brain in life. The infant brain receives consciousness as a fetus. The separation occurs only after true death. You know this point in my thinking.
dhw: You are repeating my own hypothesis in different words. Yes, our brain is different because instead of expanding, it complexifies. And yes, increased efficiency of complexification may have resulted in shrinkage. And yes, complexification could not cope with pre-sapiens’ demands, and so the brain had to expand.
DAVID: What demands in a survival type life? Minimal compared to what our brain does now. I don't see the explosion pressures you are looking for.
dhw: And now you changing the subject! You know perfectly well that I regard survival and IMPROVEMENT as the driving forces, and you have accepted improvement as a “major tenet” of evolution.
Not changing. Read your own sentence taken from the last comment: " And yes, complexification could not cope with pre-sapiens’ demands, and so the brain had to expand." I repeat, what conceptual demands in a survival mode life require the expansion? My anwser, not one.
DAVID: Not inadequate, but enlarged with many more neurons and branching axons and synapses. Then it could easily handle the exploding knowledge and thought over the past 10,000 years.dhw: Over the past 10,000 years the brain has COMPLEXIFIED, not enlarged (as pre-sapiens brains were able to do). In fact, as you keep telling us, it has shrunk. And so the optimum-sized sapiens brain was not hanging around waiting to be made full use of. It had to respond to new concepts by COMPLEXIFYING, as proven by modern science.
The 200cc of highly complex hardware of the human pre-frontal cortex is what arrived 300,000 years ago. The fact that it could shrink a bit as new uses caused modifications of further complexity is simply an evidence of the computer power we received initially before complex use even began.
DAVID: I believe it was highly complex to begin with, waiting for us to use it, but we had to learn to use it.dhw: So instead of claiming it was the large brain hanging around waiting to be used, you now say it was the complex brain that was hanging around to be used. Of course it was highly complex to begin with, but now it is even more complex.
Explained above. The complexity you describe involves new connectivity, perhaps new neurons, but a degree of pruning to create the smaller size. This onboard plasticity ability attests to the initial complexity. In the past 10,000 years we have opened up its full ability for use.
DAVID: I don't know why each jump in size took so long. Ask God. We have to accept what we see.
dhw: Then instead of asking why it took sapiens 290,000 years (no big deal in the grand scheme of evolution) to come up with his new “civilizing” concepts, why don’t you just accept what you see?
We have discussed a history of becoming civilized and finding the brain was ready for us to use it.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Thursday, December 14, 2017, 11:10 (2537 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: […] if, as you believe, consciousness is a separate entity, it cannot be the larger more complex brain that conceives of more complex concepts!
DAVID: Remember I conceive the brain as a computer. A larger more complex software in a more advanced computer allows more complex operations. […] My soul/consciousness operates the brain in life. […]
Your computer image has always been singularly unhelpful. Does your more advanced computer CONCEIVE of more complex software? Of course it doesn’t. So why do you maintain that “only the larger more complex brain [computer] can conceive of more complex concepts”? Now in your response you change this to: ”allows more complex operations”. In pre-sapiens the smaller brain had to expand in order to implement more complex concepts, but in sapiens the already enlarged brain did not “allow more complex operations", because having reached optimum size, it had to COMPLEXIFY in order to implement more complex concepts. It is the brain’s plasticity that ALLOWS more complex operations through expansion or complexification.
DAVID: What demands in a survival type life? Minimal compared to what our brain does now. I don't see the explosion pressures you are looking for.
dhw: You know perfectly well that I regard survival and IMPROVEMENT as the driving forces, and you have accepted improvement as a “major tenet” of evolution.
DAVID: Not changing. Read your own sentence taken from the last comment: " And yes, complexification could not cope with pre-sapiens’ demands, and so the brain had to expand." I repeat, what conceptual demands in a survival mode life require the expansion? My anwser, not one.
And I repeat, stop ignoring IMPROVEMENT. But since you insist, let me illustrate how the two driving forces can actually combine. Pre-sapiens man hungry. Him want eat (= SURVIVAL). Him want meat. Him fight animal and damned animal fight back. Him think: better way to kill animal (= IMPROVEMENT): me sharpen stone and attach it to stick and throw it at animal, then me no have to fight animal….Pre-sapiens man and his mates get together, and here I quote a dear friend of mine: “Once he learns to knapp flint, attach the stone point to a wooden rod, and then practices throwing it with accuracy, there is no question his brain has enlarged with all the muscle movement and visual coordination involved” (David Turell, 2 December, 15:07). An improved concept of survival has required and caused expansion.
dhw: Over the past 10,000 years the brain has COMPLEXIFIED, not enlarged (as pre-sapiens brains were able to do). In fact, as you keep telling us, it has shrunk. And so the optimum-sized sapiens brain was not hanging around waiting to be made full use of. It had to respond to new concepts by COMPLEXIFYING, as proven by modern science.
DAVID: The 200cc of highly complex hardware of the human pre-frontal cortex is what arrived 300,000 years ago. The fact that it could shrink a bit as new uses caused modifications of further complexity is simply an evidence of the computer power we received initially before complex use even began.
Agreed that the SIZE arrived 300,000 years ago. The fact that it shrank a bit is evidence that complexification was highly efficient. The brain must always have had a capacity for change/expansion/complexification (= plasticity), just like other cell communities, so how does that prove that your God kept expanding it before expansion was needed, leaving it hanging around waiting to be used?
DAVID: I believe it was highly complex to begin with, waiting for us to use it, but we had to learn to use it.
dhw: So instead of claiming it was the large brain hanging around waiting to be used, you now say it was the complex brain that was hanging around to be used. Of course it was highly complex to begin with, but now it is even more complex.
DAVID: […] The complexity you describe involves new connectivity, perhaps new neurons, but a degree of pruning to create the smaller size. This onboard plasticity ability attests to the initial complexity. In the past 10,000 years we have opened up its full ability for use.
Yes, plasticity is complex, and yes new connections and “perhaps new neurons” enhance the complexity, even if earlier ones are no longer needed and disappear (shrinkage). What is it, then, that was hanging around waiting to be used? Not the large brain, as that had finished expanding; not the new complexities, or they wouldn’t have been new. The only things that were hanging around waiting to be used were the potential for greater complexity of thought (the source of which, according to you, is the soul) and the potential for the implementation of the thoughts, i.e. NOT the larger brain, NOT the more complex brain, but the plasticity of the brain which enabled expansion and complexification in response to new thoughts. And both of these (possibly God-given) potentials were there from the start, since the same potentials must have been present in the first cells if you believe in common descent. (See also under “fine tuned…”)
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Friday, December 15, 2017, 21:14 (2535 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: […] if, as you believe, consciousness is a separate entity, it cannot be the larger more complex brain that conceives of more complex concepts!
DAVID: Remember I conceive the brain as a computer. A larger more complex software in a more advanced computer allows more complex operations. […] My soul/consciousness operates the brain in life. […]dhw: Your computer image has always been singularly unhelpful. Does your more advanced computer CONCEIVE of more complex software? Of course it doesn’t.
I view the more complex brain receiving a consciousness that can be be used more complexly. I explained this before.
dhw: So why do you maintain that “only the larger more complex brain [computer] can conceive of more complex concepts”? Now in your response you change this to: ”allows more complex operations”. In pre-sapiens the smaller brain had to expand in order to implement more complex concepts, but in sapiens the already enlarged brain did not “allow more complex operations", because having reached optimum size, it had to COMPLEXIFY in order to implement more complex concepts. It is the brain’s plasticity that ALLOWS more complex operations through expansion or complexification.
I don't accept your approach as explained above.
dhw: And I repeat, stop ignoring IMPROVEMENT. But since you insist, let me illustrate how the two driving forces can actually combine. Pre-sapiens man hungry. Him want eat (= SURVIVAL). Him want meat. Him fight animal and damned animal fight back. Him think: better way to kill animal (= IMPROVEMENT): me sharpen stone and attach it to stick and throw it at animal, then me no have to fight animal….Pre-sapiens man and his mates get together, and here I quote a dear friend of mine: “Once he learns to knapp flint, attach the stone point to a wooden rod, and then practices throwing it with accuracy, there is no question his brain has enlarged with all the muscle movement and visual coordination involved” (David Turell, 2 December, 15:07). An improved concept of survival has required and caused expansion.
No way.
DAVID: I believe it was highly complex to begin with, waiting for us to use it, but we had to learn to use it.
dhw: So instead of claiming it was the large brain hanging around waiting to be used, you now say it was the complex brain that was hanging around to be used. Of course it was highly complex to begin with, but now it is even more complex.
You've simply reapeated my point.
DAVID: […] The complexity you describe involves new connectivity, perhaps new neurons, but a degree of pruning to create the smaller size. This onboard plasticity ability attests to the initial complexity. In the past 10,000 years we have opened up its full ability for use.
dhw: Yes, plasticity is complex, and yes new connections and “perhaps new neurons” enhance the complexity, even if earlier ones are no longer needed and disappear (shrinkage). What is it, then, that was hanging around waiting to be used? Not the large brain, as that had finished expanding; not the new complexities, or they wouldn’t have been new. The only things that were hanging around waiting to be used were the potential for greater complexity of thought (the source of which, according to you, is the soul) and the potential for the implementation of the thoughts, i.e. NOT the larger brain, NOT the more complex brain, but the plasticity of the brain which enabled expansion and complexification in response to new thoughts. And both of these (possibly God-given) potentials were there from the start, since the same potentials must have been present in the first cells if you believe in common descent.
I'm working in a library since our internet is out at home. Help may come next Wednesday. This computer is confusing, hard to work. And sitting here your above statement is confusing and the reasoning doesn't follow along. I view a big new sapiens brain as a gift from God, capable of much more than previous brains. I'll answer next week.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Saturday, December 16, 2017, 12:15 (2534 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Remember I conceive the brain as a computer. A larger more complex software in a more advanced computer allows more complex operations. […] My soul/consciousness operates the brain in life. […]
dhw: Your computer image has always been singularly unhelpful. Does your more advanced computer CONCEIVE of more complex software? Of course it doesn’t.
DAVID: I view the more complex brain receiving a consciousness that can be be used more complexly. I explained this before.
Bearing in mind that you are a dualist, let’s keep it simple: do you or do you not believe that consciousness (not the brain) conceives concepts, and do you or do you not believe that consciousness uses the brain to implement its concepts?
dhw: So why do you maintain that “only the larger more complex brain [computer] can conceive of more complex concepts”? Now in your response you change this to: ”allows more complex operations”. In pre-sapiens the smaller brain had to expand in order to implement more complex concepts, but in sapiens the already enlarged brain did not “allow more complex operations", because having reached optimum size, it had to COMPLEXIFY in order to implement more complex concepts. It is the brain’s plasticity that ALLOWS more complex operations through expansion or complexification.
DAVID: I don't accept your approach as explained above.
What don't you accept? That consciousness conceives concepts? That brains change in the course of implementing concepts? That the sapiens brain stopped expanding and implemented new concepts by complexifying?
dhw: And I repeat, stop ignoring IMPROVEMENT. But since you insist, let me illustrate how the two driving forces can actually combine. Pre-sapiens man hungry. Him want eat (= SURVIVAL). Him want meat. Him fight animal and damned animal fight back. Him think: better way to kill animal (= IMPROVEMENT): me sharpen stone and attach it to stick and throw it at animal, then me no have to fight animal….Pre-sapiens man and his mates get together, and here I quote a dear friend of mine: “Once he learns to knapp flint, attach the stone point to a wooden rod, and then practices throwing it with accuracy, there is no question his brain has enlarged with all the muscle movement and visual coordination involved” (David Turell, 2 December, 15:07). An improved concept of survival has required and caused expansion.
DAVID: No way.
Turell rejects Turell.
DAVID: I believe it was highly complex to begin with, waiting for us to use it, but we had to learn to use it.
dhw: So instead of claiming it was the large brain hanging around waiting to be used, you now say it was the complex brain that was hanging around to be used. Of course it was highly complex to begin with, but now it is even more complex.
DAVID: You've simply repeated my point.
Good. Then you agree that what was “waiting to be used” was not the size of the brain or the existing complexities of the brain which had resulted from previous usage, but the plasticity of the brain which enabled it to complexify still further through new usage.
DAVID: I'm working in a library since our internet is out at home. Help may come next Wednesday. This computer is confusing, hard to work. And sitting here your above statement is confusing and the reasoning doesn't follow along. I view a big new sapiens brain as a gift from God, capable of much more than previous brains. I'll answer next week.
Sorry you’re suffering from technical problems. You have my sympathy! I agree that each new-sized brain was capable of more than previous brains. Once pre-sapiens had learned to knapp flint, attach it to a rod, throw it etc. his enlarged brain was capable of doing things he had not done before. Sapiens’ big new brain was likewise capable of doing all the things that had led to previous expansions plus whatever had led to its own expansion. But as we know, sapiens' brain did not get any larger, and so whatever new actions were required of it led to further complexification. It was the brain’s plasticity, not its size or existing complexities, that allowed this.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Thursday, December 21, 2017, 01:02 (2530 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: I view the more complex brain receiving a consciousness that can be be used more complexly. I explained this before.
dhw: Bearing in mind that you are a dualist, let’s keep it simple: do you or do you not believe that consciousness (not the brain) conceives concepts, and do you or do you not believe that consciousness uses the brain to implement its concepts?
I believe that consciousness/soul uses the brain to develop concepts and implement them. Consciousness is the software and the brain is the hardware. Since I am connected to my consciousness through my brain, and since I am the sole administrator, I run the show. Seamless.
DAVID: I believe it was highly complex to begin with, waiting for us to use it, but we had to learn to use it.
dhw: So instead of claiming it was the large brain hanging around waiting to be used, you now say it was the complex brain that was hanging around to be used. Of course it was highly complex to begin with, but now it is even more complex.
DAVID: You've simply repeated my point.dhw: Good. Then you agree that what was “waiting to be used” was not the size of the brain or the existing complexities of the brain which had resulted from previous usage, but the plasticity of the brain which enabled it to complexify still further through new usage.
No. 300,000 years ago a newly enlarged brain, which came from a much more complex pre-frontal cortex, was now available for much more complex conceptual use when we finally learned how to use it 10,000 years ago as real civilization began.
DAVID: I'm working in a library since our internet is out at home. Help may come next Wednesday. This computer is confusing, hard to work. And sitting here your above statement is confusing and the reasoning doesn't follow along. I view a big new sapiens brain as a gift from God, capable of much more than previous brains. I'll answer next week.dhw: Sorry you’re suffering from technical problems. You have my sympathy! I agree that each new-sized brain was capable of more than previous brains. Once pre-sapiens had learned to knapp flint, attach it to a rod, throw it etc. his enlarged brain was capable of doing things he had not done before. Sapiens’ big new brain was likewise capable of doing all the things that had led to previous expansions plus whatever had led to its own expansion. But as we know, sapiens' brain did not get any larger, and so whatever new actions were required of it led to further complexification. It was the brain’s plasticity, not its size or existing complexities, that allowed this.
Your summary simply fits my thoughts. Bigger brain, then bigger use. Size and complexity of cortex arrives and then is used with more complexity of thought and with plasticity responses to mold the brain to the new uses.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Friday, December 22, 2017, 11:12 (2529 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Bearing in mind that you are a dualist, let’s keep it simple: do you or do you not believe that consciousness (not the brain) conceives concepts, and do you or do you not believe that consciousness uses the brain to implement its concepts?
DAVID: I believe that consciousness/soul uses the brain to develop concepts and implement them. Consciousness is the software and the brain is the hardware. Since I am connected to my consciousness through my brain, and since I am the sole administrator, I run the show. Seamless.
You know how I love precision, so indulge me: two straight questions that simply require a yes or a no. Do you, as a dualist, believe that consciousness/the soul conceives concepts before using the brain to implement them? And do you accept that the implementation of concepts causes changes to the brain?
dhw: Then you agree that what was “waiting to be used” was not the size of the brain or the existing complexities of the brain which had resulted from previous usage, but the plasticity of the brain which enabled it to complexify still further through new usage.
DAVID: No. 300,000 years ago a newly enlarged brain, which came from a much more complex pre-frontal cortex, was now available for much more complex conceptual use when we finally learned how to use it 10,000 years ago as real civilization began.
What do you mean by “conceptual use”? There is a difference between a concept and the implementation of the concept. According to you as a self-proclaimed dualist, the brain does NOT provide the concept. And so the size is only relevant to the implementation. Since approx. 300,000 years ago, implementation no longer led to expansion but instead caused complexification. And 10,000 years ago, it seems most likely that an explosion of new concepts would have resulted in an explosion of new connections as the brain complexified through implementation of the concepts.
DAVID: Your summary simply fits my thoughts. Bigger brain, then bigger use. Size and complexity of cortex arrives and then is used with more complexity of thought and with plasticity responses to mold the brain to the new uses.
The difference between us is your insistence that your God expanded each pre-sapiens brain BEFORE it came up with its new concepts. So let me try once more: If you agree that new uses change the brain (as proved by modern science) – as opposed to the brain changing in anticipation of new concepts – then the sequence is new concepts, bigger brain to implement them, e.g. concept of spear comes first, making and using spear causes bigger brain. Bigger brain is able to perform new use plus earlier uses, but when new concepts arise, bigger brain needs to get bigger again to implement them. Final size arrives 300,000 years ago, and is able to perform all existing uses. But now new concepts lead to more complex brain instead of expansion. Plasticity enables pre-sapiens expansion and sapiens complexification. Please pin-point whichever of these statements you disagree with.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Friday, December 22, 2017, 18:01 (2528 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Bearing in mind that you are a dualist, let’s keep it simple: do you or do you not believe that consciousness (not the brain) conceives concepts, and do you or do you not believe that consciousness uses the brain to implement its concepts?
DAVID: I believe that consciousness/soul uses the brain to develop concepts and implement them. Consciousness is the software and the brain is the hardware. Since I am connected to my consciousness through my brain, and since I am the sole administrator, I run the show. Seamless.
dhw: You know how I love precision, so indulge me: two straight questions that simply require a yes or a no. Do you, as a dualist, believe that consciousness/the soul conceives concepts before using the brain to implement them? And do you accept that the implementation of concepts causes changes to the brain?
I thought I was clear above. The adolescent brain research tells the story. A poorly developed frontal lobe does not permit full assessment of danger until age 25. Therefore the concept cannot be developed until the brain is ready. The brain is required for the soul/self/consciousness to develop concepts and implement. Brain is hardware, s/s/c is software that I can run. New coordinated physical and mental functions can cause the brain to rewire. Answer to question one is more complex than yes or no. Two is yes.
DAVID: Your summary simply fits my thoughts. Bigger brain, then bigger use. Size and complexity of cortex arrives and then is used with more complexity of thought and with plasticity responses to mold the brain to the new uses.dhw: The difference between us is your insistence that your God expanded each pre-sapiens brain BEFORE it came up with its new concepts. So let me try once more: If you agree that new uses change the brain (as proved by modern science) – as opposed to the brain changing in anticipation of new concepts – then the sequence is new concepts, bigger brain to implement them, e.g. concept of spear comes first, making and using spear causes bigger brain. Bigger brain is able to perform new use plus earlier uses, but when new concepts arise, bigger brain needs to get bigger again to implement them. Final size arrives 300,000 years ago, and is able to perform all existing uses. But now new concepts lead to more complex brain instead of expansion. Plasticity enables pre-sapiens expansion and sapiens complexification. Please pin-point whichever of these statements you disagree with.
As far as I am concerned your entire approach is backward as shown by the time line of expansions befoe new artifacts appear. We go round and round distantly apart.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Saturday, December 23, 2017, 12:56 (2527 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: You know how I love precision, so indulge me: two straight questions that simply require a yes or a no. Do you, as a dualist, believe that consciousness/the soul conceives concepts before using the brain to implement them? And do you accept that the implementation of concepts causes changes to the brain?
DAVID: I thought I was clear above. The adolescent brain research tells the story. A poorly developed frontal lobe does not permit full assessment of danger until age 25. Therefore the concept cannot be developed until the brain is ready. The brain is required for the soul/self/consciousness to develop concepts and implement. Brain is hardware, s/s/c is software that I can run. New coordinated physical and mental functions can cause the brain to rewire. Answer to question one is more complex than yes or no. Two is yes.
I don’t know how you can measure “full assessment” of anything - no brain is capable of acquiring all the information available. But I agree that no concept is possible without the information provided by the brain. The less developed the brain, the less “full” the information will be. The dualist’s brain is required to provide information to the dualist’s soul/self/consciousness, (HOMINID: Me hungry. Animal over there. Him bigger than me),which will then use the information to form concepts (HOMINID: Me put sharp stone on stick and throw it) before instructing the brain to implement them (HOMINID: Ugh, big effort. Something changing in brain). There is nothing so complex in this as to warrant anything other than a yes to the first question.
Dhw (under “selective hearing”): Your survival mode camper and your so-called primitive tribesman have the same sized brain, and no individual can possibly exhaust the full potential of the human mind, but that potential does not depend on the SIZE of the brain, which has stopped expanding!
DAVID: You have not commented on the size of cortex. The pre-frontal cortex of the modern human is a highly complex network of neurons and branched axons and it is that additiion that added 200cc to the skull size to contain this enlargement. To contain all of its complexity it is highly convoluted. That predicessors did not have this type of brain is shown by existing fossil skulls. Neanderthal skulls make the point. Their brains were bigger but their pre-frontal cortex was not as large. That advanced area arrived 290,000 years before we really began to have advanded concepts as we civilized. Obviously size came first and then use which didn't have to expand the brain b ecasue the cortex was so advanced and had the ability of neuroplasticity as you point out. The time table tells the story, no matter how much you twist and turn the logic.
Are you now saying that pre-sapiens and our ape cousins did not/do not have a pre-frontal cortex??? Otherwise, all this amounts to is that instead of saying the brain expanded, you are saying the pre-frontal cortex expanded; instead of the brain complexifying, the pre-frontal cortex complexified; but then since the brain stopped expanding, of course the size preceded any new concepts, and so instead of saying that the complex brain complexified still further, you say the complex pre-frontal cortex complexified still further. It changes nothing in the argument.
And since you are a self-proclaimed dualist, the pre-frontal cortex for you is NOT the source of thought/conceptualization/decision-making: it can therefore only be a provider of information and an implementing tool of the soul/self/consciousness. The only evidence we have relating to rewiring is that it takes place in response to the implementation of new concepts, and so it is not unreasonable to assume that both expansion and complexification have always followed the same procedure.
DAVID: As far as I am concerned your entire approach is backward as shown by the time line of expansions befoe new artifacts appear.
New artefacts only appear together with the fossils of the pre-sapiens who made them, and their brains have already expanded through implementation of the concept. Changes are CAUSED by implementation and do not occur before it.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Saturday, December 23, 2017, 19:04 (2527 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Saturday, December 23, 2017, 19:11
dhw: You know how I love precision, so indulge me: two straight questions that simply require a yes or a no. Do you, as a dualist, believe that consciousness/the soul conceives concepts before using the brain to implement them? And do you accept that the implementation of concepts causes changes to the brain?
DAVID: I thought I was clear above. The adolescent brain research tells the story. A poorly developed frontal lobe does not permit full assessment of danger until age 25. Therefore the concept cannot be developed until the brain is ready. The brain is required for the soul/self/consciousness to develop concepts and implement. Brain is hardware, s/s/c is software that I can run. New coordinated physical and mental functions can cause the brain to rewire. Answer to question one is more complex than yes or no. Two is yes.
dhw: I don’t know how you can measure “full assessment” of anything - no brain is capable of acquiring all the information available. But I agree that no concept is possible without the information provided by the brain. The less developed the brain, the less “full” the information will be.
You are exactly describing the problem with the adolescent brain in other words.
The dualist’s brain is required to provide information to the dualist’s soul/self/consciousness,...There is nothing so complex in this as to warrant anything other than a yes to the first question.
The s/s/c uses the brain to acquire information.
DAVID: You have not commented on the size of cortex. The pre-frontal cortex of the modern human is a highly complex network of neurons and branched axons and it is that additiion that added 200cc to the skull size to contain this enlargement. To contain all of its complexity it is highly convoluted. That predicessors did not have this type of brain is shown by existing fossil skulls. Neanderthal skulls make the point. Their brains were bigger but their pre-frontal cortex was not as large. That advanced area arrived 290,000 years before we really began to have advanded concepts as we civilized. Obviously size came first and then use which didn't have to expand the brain b ecasue the cortex was so advanced and had the ability of neuroplasticity as you point out. The time table tells the story, no matter how much you twist and turn the logic.
dhw: Are you now saying that pre-sapiens and our ape cousins did not/do not have a pre-frontal cortex???
What?! Of course not. Most of the all animal and hominin brains are/were concerned with automatic functions like breathing, muscle control and coordination. It is the pre-frontal cortex which enlarged at each stage in hominin development by 200cc and allowed all the civilized concepts and functions we now have.
dhw: And since you are a self-proclaimed dualist, the pre-frontal cortex for you is NOT the source of thought/conceptualization/decision-making: it can therefore only be a provider of information and an implementing tool of the soul/self/consciousness.
It acts as advanced computer for the s/s/c. I view the brain as an instrument.
dhw: The only evidence we have relating to rewiring is that it takes place in response to the implementation of new concepts, and so it is not unreasonable to assume that both expansion and complexification have always followed the same procedure.
Two separate events. New larger pre-frontal cortex arrives with more neurons and more axon branching connections ready to be used in more complex ways. More complex use is, yes, handled by more neuroplasticity so more enlargement is not necessary.
DAVID: As far as I am concerned your entire approach is backward as shown by the time line of expansions before new artifacts appear.dhw: New artefacts only appear together with the fossils of the pre-sapiens who made them, and their brains have already expanded through implementation of the concept. Changes are CAUSED by implementation and do not occur before it.
Does not explain our modern artifacts appearing 290,000 years after our larger brain arrived and had not realized any of our civilized concepts now currently filling libraries of books and computer records.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Saturday, December 23, 2017, 19:45 (2527 days ago) @ David Turell
The adolescent brain is not a complete adult brain. That takes to about age 26. As a result adolescents are reward satisfied and risk takers:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/12/171221122925.htm
"The brains of adolescents react more responsively to receiving rewards. This can lead to risky behaviour, but, according to Leiden University research, it also has a positive function: it makes learning easier.
"Alcohol abuse, reckless behaviour and poor choice in friends: all these are inextricably linked to puberty and adolescence. In the late teens, young people test their limits, and in many cases, push beyond their limits. This is due in part to increased activity in the corpus striatum, a small area deeply hidden away inside the brain. According to previous research, that part of the brain in young people is more responsive to receiving rewards.
"Leiden University scientists are now able to show that this increased activity in the corpus striatum does not have only negative consequences. 'The adolescent brain is very sensitive to feedback,' says Sabine Peters, assistant professor of developmental and educational psychology and lead author of the article. 'That makes adolescence the ideal time to acquire and retain new information.'
"Peters used a large data set for her research with MRI scans. Over a period of five years, no fewer than 736 brain scans were made of a total of 300 subjects between the ages of 8 and 29. According to Peters, the data set is about ten times larger than that of most comparable studies.
***
"It showed that adolescents responded keenly to educational feedback', says Peters. 'If the adolescent received useful feedback, then you saw the corpus striatum being activated. This was not the case with less pertinent feedback, for example, if the test person already knew the answer. The stronger your brain recognises that difference, the better the performance in the learning task. Brain activation could even predict learning performance two years into the future.'
"It has been known for some time that adolescent brains become more 'successful' when they receive the same reward as small children or adults. For example, it has already been proven that the use of drugs and/or alcohol in the teenage years is linked to powerful activation in the brain's reward system. Peters: 'It explains why adolescents and young adults go on a voyage of discovery, with all the positive and negative consequences that entails. You see the same behaviour in many animal species, including rats and mice.'"
Comment: The obvious conclusion is the soul/self/consciousness can only use the brain that it is given to work with. This applies to all animals and to all pre-humans. The size of the pre-frontal cortex and its complexity is the only tool that can be used at a given evolutionary development level. At every level are are limits to how broadly concepts can be developed and actions started based on the size and quality of the pre-frontal cortex. I still believe ours is an endpoint with its neuroplasticity mechanisms.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Sunday, December 24, 2017, 12:19 (2526 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: The adolescent brain is not a complete adult brain. That takes to about age 26. As a result adolescents are reward satisfied and risk takers:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/12/171221122925.htm
DAVID’s comment: The obvious conclusion is the soul/self/consciousness can only use the brain that it is given to work with. This applies to all animals and to all pre-humans. The size of the pre-frontal cortex and its complexity is the only tool that can be used at a given evolutionary development level. At every level are are limits to how broadly concepts can be developed and actions started based on the size and quality of the pre-frontal cortex. I still believe ours is an endpoint with its neuroplasticity mechanisms.
What do you mean by “how broadly concepts can be developed”? The major question is how concepts arise in the first place. If they depend on the size and quality of the pre-frontal cortex, the obvious conclusion is that the pre-frontal cortex is the source of concepts, which you reject. In sapiens, it is not the size of the cortex that determines our ability to implement new concepts, but the plasticity. And for the last time today, the changes occur when we implement new concepts and not beforehand.
The sapiens brain as an endpoint does not mean that every other organism came into existence for the sake of the sapiens brain.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Sunday, December 24, 2017, 19:11 (2526 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: The adolescent brain is not a complete adult brain. That takes to about age 26. As a result adolescents are reward satisfied and risk takers:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/12/171221122925.htmDAVID’s comment: The obvious conclusion is the soul/self/consciousness can only use the brain that it is given to work with. This applies to all animals and to all pre-humans. The size of the pre-frontal cortex and its complexity is the only tool that can be used at a given evolutionary development level. At every level are there limits to how broadly concepts can be developed and actions started based on the size and quality of the pre-frontal cortex. I still believe ours is an endpoint with its neuroplasticity mechanisms.
dhw: What do you mean by “how broadly concepts can be developed”?
The pre-frontal cortex is where thought and concepts take place. Much of our brain is simply running various systems of sensation and autonomic function, coordination of movements, etc.
dhw:The major question is how concepts arise in the first place. If they depend on the size and quality of the pre-frontal cortex, the obvious conclusion is that the pre-frontal cortex is the source of concepts, which you reject.
I don't reject it. Consciousness/soul/self use that specific cortex for ideation.
dhw: In sapiens, it is not the size of the cortex that determines our ability to implement new concepts, but the plasticity. And for the last time today, the changes occur when we implement new concepts and not beforehand.
The sapiens brain as an endpoint does not mean that every other organism came into existence for the sake of the sapiens brain.
We are the endpoint of brain evolution. Without our newly attained size of frontal and prefrontal cortex we would still be at the erectus level. We are at a top level of plasticity because of all the complexity of neurons and axon connections we have to work with. We can do alterations they didn't have the neurons to do. Bony skulls are had to expand so the brain has to have the plasticity ability.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Sunday, December 24, 2017, 19:37 (2526 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: The adolescent brain is not a complete adult brain. That takes to about age 26. As a result adolescents are reward satisfied and risk takers:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/12/171221122925.htmDAVID’s comment: The obvious conclusion is the soul/self/consciousness can only use the brain that it is given to work with. This applies to all animals and to all pre-humans. The size of the pre-frontal cortex and its complexity is the only tool that can be used at a given evolutionary development level. At every level are there limits to how broadly concepts can be developed and actions started based on the size and quality of the pre-frontal cortex. I still believe ours is an endpoint with its neuroplasticity mechanisms.
dhw: What do you mean by “how broadly concepts can be developed”?
The pre-frontal cortex is where thought and concepts take place. Much of our brain is simply running various systems of sensation and autonomic function, coordination of movements, etc. Our prefrontal cortex is larger than anything preceding it. Therefore it is only at our stage that we see the magnificent civilization we have created. Previous brains never could do it. They operated only at a bare survival level.
dhw:The major question is how concepts arise in the first place. If they depend on the size and quality of the pre-frontal cortex, the obvious conclusion is that the pre-frontal cortex is the source of concepts, which you reject.
I don't reject it. Consciousness/soul/self use that specific cortex for ideation.
dhw: In sapiens, it is not the size of the cortex that determines our ability to implement new concepts, but the plasticity. And for the last time today, the changes occur when we implement new concepts and not beforehand.
The sapiens brain as an endpoint does not mean that every other organism came into existence for the sake of the sapiens brain.
We are the endpoint of brain evolution. Without our newly attained size of frontal and prefrontal cortex we would still be at the erectus level. We are at a top level of plasticity because of all the complexity of neurons and axon connections we have to work with. We can do alterations they didn't have the neurons to do. Bony skulls are had to expand so the brain has to have the plasticity ability.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Tuesday, December 26, 2017, 09:17 (2525 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: You say your God enlarged the pre-sapiens cortex BEFORE pre-sapiens could come up with his new concepts, and I propose the cortex enlarged through the implementation of new concepts.
DAVID: The only evidence we have before us is the complexity that developed in illiterate women learning to read. That is implementation.
You gave us the example of right-handed people learning to work with their left hand (or was it vice versa?). Experiments are going on all the time, though not just with people, but you have agreed on several occasions (the last being on Saturday 23.12) that “implementation of concepts causes changes to the brain”. However, I shall look forward to your providing us with examples of how the modern brain rewires itself in anticipation of new concepts.
DAVID: The other fact we know is the modern sapiens brain is smaller as we civilized. And even though the human brain arrived 300,000 years ago, real civilized use of the brain began only 10,000 years ago and it is now a little smaller! We make tremendous use of the brain frontal lobe now. That is where the thought development and knowledge occurred.
All dealt with several times, including in the post you are replying to (see below), except for the ambiguity of your final sentence, which you repeat in your second post:
DAVID: The pre-frontal cortex is where thought and concepts take place. […] Consciousness/soul/self use that specific cortex for ideation.
You have argued that soul/self/consciousness are one, and until now you have claimed that your s/s/c does the thinking. Now you say thought occurs/takes place/develops in the cortex, and your soul “uses” it for ideation. What do you mean by the soul “using” the cortex to do its thinking? You keep agreeing that your “soul” uses the brain to acquire information and to implement its concepts, but does the cortex or the “soul” do the thinking, i.e. produce the concepts? Your next reply is an astonishing volte face on your part:
dhw:The major question is how concepts arise in the first place. If they depend on the size and quality of the pre-frontal cortex, the obvious conclusion is that the pre-frontal cortex is the source of concepts, which you reject.
DAVID: I don't reject it.
If the brain, or since you wish to be even more precise, the pre-frontal cortex might be the SOURCE of concepts (as opposed to the recipient, as you have always claimed), then you cannot insist that mind and body are separate entities, with the mind using the body. I’m delighted to welcome you to my agnostic fence.
dhw: You are quite right to say that the final enlargement (which in my hypothesis would have been the RESULT of implementing earlier concepts) preceded all the “civilized” concepts we have now, because by then the brain had stopped expanding and complexification had taken over.
DAVID: Agree. complexity had to appear to keep the skull a reasonable size.
You agree, but then you proceed to ignore what you have agreed with:
DAVID: But all of the modern use of the brain came after the final enlargement of the pre-frontal lobes, not before.
Once again: the modern use of the brain came after the final enlargement and not before because after the final enlargement the brain had stopped expanding and complexification had taken over, as you agree.
DAVID: We do not know of a mental requirement that forced the final enlargement 300,000 years ago. And later: Can you point out any complex implementations that occurred among humans before cave art 30,000 years ago?
Nobody “knows” why ANY of the pre-sapiens stages of brain expansion took place! That is why there are so many theories: random mutations, descent from the trees, bipedalism, use of fire, cooking. You claim that your God preprogrammed or dabbled each one in preparation for new concepts. So can you “point out” for what new concepts he enlarged each successive brain, say from Australopithecus onwards, and especially for what new concepts he made the final enlargement before complexification took over from enlargement?
DAVID: I still believe ours [the pre-frontal cortex] is an endpoint with its neuroplasticity mechanisms.
dhw: The sapiens brain as an endpoint does not mean that every other organism came into existence for the sake of the sapiens brain.
DAVID: We are the endpoint of brain evolution. Without our newly attained size of frontal and prefrontal cortex we would still be at the erectus level. We are at a top level of plasticity because of all the complexity of neurons and axon connections we have to work with. We can do alterations they didn't have the neurons to do. Bony skulls are had to expand so the brain has to have the plasticity ability.
I have no idea how our brains will have developed in a billion years or so, if we are still around, but I’m glad you now acknowledge that it is plasticity and not size that has enabled us to reach this level. And to repeat the point you have failed to answer: The sapiens brain as an endpoint does not mean that every other organism came into existence for the sake of the sapiens brain.
Xxxxxxx
Thank you for the article you have posted on brain damage. This is a major contribution to our debate, and I’ll reply to it tomorrow.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Tuesday, December 26, 2017, 15:09 (2524 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: but you have agreed on several occasions (the last being on Saturday 23.12) that “implementation of concepts causes changes to the brain”. However, I shall look forward to your providing us with examples of how the modern brain rewires itself in anticipation of new concepts.
There is no evidence the brain rewires in anticipation of new concepts or implementations.
DAVID: The pre-frontal cortex is where thought and concepts take place. […] Consciousness/soul/self use that specific cortex for ideation.
dhw: You have argued that soul/self/consciousness are one, and until now you have claimed that your s/s/c does the thinking. Now you say thought occurs/takes place/develops in the cortex, and your soul “uses” it for ideation. What do you mean by the soul “using” the cortex to do its thinking?
Must I repeat many times that the s/s/c uses the brain as a computer by providing the solftware just as we do.
dhw: You keep agreeing that your “soul” uses the brain to acquire information and to implement its concepts, but does the cortex or the “soul” do the thinking, i.e. produce the concepts?
Same answer: the s/s/c uses the brain to do the thinking in the prefrontal cortex primarily, although memories are also elsewhere.
dhw:The major question is how concepts arise in the first place. If they depend on the size and quality of the pre-frontal cortex, the obvious conclusion is that the pre-frontal cortex is the source of concepts, which you reject.
DAVID: I don't reject it.
dhw: If the brain, or since you wish to be even more precise, the pre-frontal cortex might be the SOURCE of concepts (as opposed to the recipient, as you have always claimed), then you cannot insist that mind and body are separate entities, with the mind using the body. I’m delighted to welcome you to my agnostic fence.
It's your fence, not mine. Consciousness shows its separateness in NDE's. In life it acts seamlessly with the brain.
DAVID: But all of the modern use of the brain came after the final enlargement of the pre-frontal lobes, not before.dhw: Once again: the modern use of the brain came after the final enlargement and not before because after the final enlargement the brain had stopped expanding and complexification had taken over, as you agree.
Size is not the real issue. It is initial complexity. The original sapiens brain had an enlarged highly complex frontal and prefrontal cortex with many more neurons and axon branched connections before it was used for modern concepts.
DAVID: We do not know of a mental requirement that forced the final enlargement 300,000 years ago. And later: Can you point out any complex implementations that occurred among humans before cave art 30,000 years ago?dhw: Nobody “knows” why ANY of the pre-sapiens stages of brain expansion took place! That is why there are so many theories: random mutations, descent from the trees, bipedalism, use of fire, cooking. You claim that your God preprogrammed or dabbled each one in preparation for new concepts. So can you “point out” for what new concepts he enlarged each successive brain, say from Australopithecus onwards, and especially for what new concepts he made the final enlargement before complexification took over from enlargement?
God gave us free will to use the gift of the complex brain as we wished. Our concepts, not His.
DAVID: We are the endpoint of brain evolution. Without our newly attained size of frontal and prefrontal cortex we would still be at the erectus level. We are at a top level of plasticity because of all the complexity of neurons and axon connections we have to work with. We can do alterations they didn't have the neurons to do. Bony skulls are hard to expand so the brain has to have the plasticity ability.
dhw: I’m glad you now acknowledge that it is plasticity and not size that has enabled us to reach this level.
Twisted my point again. The complexity of our brain allows for the degree of plasticity we have. Previous brains had lesser levels of complexity and plasticity.
dhw: And to repeat the point you have failed to answer: The sapiens brain as an endpoint does not mean that every other organism came into existence for the sake of the sapiens brain.
Everything we see in evolution points to the human brain as a supreme endpoint. answered many times before.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Wednesday, December 27, 2017, 16:11 (2523 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: ...but you have agreed on several occasions (the last being on Saturday 23.12) that “implementation of concepts causes changes to the brain”. However, I shall look forward to your providing us with examples of how the modern brain rewires itself in anticipation of new concepts.
DAVID: There is no evidence the brain rewires in anticipation of new concepts or implementations.
Thank you for this important concession.
dhw: […] you say thought occurs/takes place/develops in the cortex, and your soul “uses” it for ideation. What do you mean by the soul “using” the cortex to do its thinking?
DAVID: Must I repeat many times that the s/s/c uses the brain as a computer by providing the software just as we do. And: “the s/s/c uses the brain to do the thinking in the prefrontal cortex primarily, although memories are also elsewhere.”
I’ve explained before why I don’t like your computer analogy, so let’s stick to the brain and the s/s/c. Here is a clear statement of your beliefs as I understand them: the s/s/c uses the brain as a source of information and as a tool to implement its concepts, but it does not use the cortex to do its thinking because it is the s/s/c that does the thinking. Correct or not?
dhw:The major question is how concepts arise in the first place. If they depend on the size and quality of the pre-frontal cortex, the obvious conclusion is that the pre-frontal cortex is the source of concepts, which you reject.
DAVID: I don't reject it.
dhw: [If] the pre-frontal cortex might be the SOURCE of concepts (as opposed to the recipient, as you have always claimed), then you cannot insist that mind and body are separate entities, with the mind using the body. I’m delighted to welcome you to my agnostic fence.
DAVID: It's your fence, not mine. Consciousness shows its separateness in NDE's. In life it acts seamlessly with the brain.
That does not mean the pre-frontal cortex is the SOURCE of concepts. To use your messy computer analogy, that is like saying the computer is the source of the ideas put into it by the software. That is why I have asked for clarity above. If the s/s/c does the thinking, it is the source of concepts.
DAVID: But all of the modern use of the brain came after the final enlargement of the pre-frontal lobes, not before.
dhw: Once again: the modern use of the brain came after the final enlargement and not before because after the final enlargement the brain had stopped expanding and complexification had taken over, as you agree.
DAVID: Size is not the real issue...
So please stop harping on about the fact that modern usage did not come about until after the final enlargement.
DAVID: …It is initial complexity. The original sapiens brain had an enlarged highly complex frontal and prefrontal cortex with many more neurons and axon branched connections before it was used for modern concepts.
Of course there was initial complexity, and I suspect that in the last 10,000 years that complexity has increased. Both enlargement and increasing complexity depend on plasticity, not the other way round (see below).
DAVID: Can you point out any complex implementations that occurred among humans before cave art 30,000 years ago?
dhw: […] can you “point out” for what new concepts he enlarged each successive brain, say from Australopithecus onwards, and especially for what new concepts he made the final enlargement before complexification took over from enlargement?
DAVID: God gave us free will to use the gift of the complex brain as we wished. Our concepts, not His.
[..] you challenged me to tell you which specific concept forced the final enlargement, and so I have challenged you to tell me which specific concepts followed on from your God’s supposed enlargement of the pre-sapiens brain and the final one of the sapiens brain. Or do you think each successive divine enlargement was for no particular purpose at all?
DAVID: We are the endpoint of brain evolution. […] We are at a top level of plasticity because of all the complexity of neurons and axon connections we have to work with. […] We can do alterations they didn't have the neurons to do.
dhw: I’m glad you now acknowledge that it is plasticity and not size that has enabled us to reach this level.
DAVID: Twisted my point again. The complexity of our brain allows for the degree of plasticity we have. Previous brains had lesser levels of complexity and plasticity.
I suggest that it is the brain’s plasticity that has allowed for both enlargement and complexity.These NEEDED plasticity in order to occur.
dhw: The sapiens brain as an endpoint does not mean that every other organism came into existence for the sake of the sapiens brain.
DAVID: Everything we see in evolution points to the human brain as a supreme endpoint. answered many times before.
I have no idea what the human brain will be like in a billion years’ time, but in any case I’m afraid your “balance of nature” argument will never persuade me that a God whose purpose was to produce sapiens’ brain - no matter how "supreme" it may be - found it necessary also to produce the millions of other life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Wednesday, December 27, 2017, 18:37 (2523 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: There is no evidence the brain rewires in anticipation of new concepts or implementations.
dhw: Thank you for this important concession.
Not a concession. Fact.
dhw: I’ve explained before why I don’t like your computer analogy, so let’s stick to the brain and the s/s/c. Here is a clear statement of your beliefs as I understand them: the s/s/c uses the brain as a source of information and as a tool to implement its concepts, but it does not use the cortex to do its thinking because it is the s/s/c that does the thinking. Correct or not?
No, the s/s/c uses the brain/cortex to think. Brain and s/s/c work seamlessly.
dhw: That does not mean the pre-frontal cortex is the SOURCE of concepts. To use your messy computer analogy, that is like saying the computer is the source of the ideas put into it by the software. That is why I have asked for clarity above. If the s/s/c does the thinking, it is the source of concepts.
I sit at the computer keyboard and operate its software as I wish to produce results. Seamlessly. I am in control of my consciousness, which developed as a blank slate from birth.
DAVID: Size is not the real issue...
dhw: So please stop harping on about the fact that modern usage did not come about until after the final enlargement.
DAVID: …It is initial complexity. The original sapiens brain had an enlarged highly complex frontal and prefrontal cortex with many more neurons and axon branched connections before it was used for modern concepts.
dhw: Of course there was initial complexity, and I suspect that in the last 10,000 years that complexity has increased. Both enlargement and increasing complexity depend on plasticity, not the other way round (see below).
200cc of new cortex is not cased by plasticity. that occurs after the jump in size and complexity.
DAVID: God gave us free will to use the gift of the complex brain as we wished. Our concepts, not His.
dhw: [..] you challenged me to tell you which specific concept forced the final enlargement, and so I have challenged you to tell me which specific concepts followed on from your God’s supposed enlargement of the pre-sapiens brain and the final one of the sapiens brain. Or do you think each successive divine enlargement was for no particular purpose at all?
Each God-given enlargement allowed a more improved lifestyle, moving from survival living to current civilization.
DAVID: Twisted my point again. The complexity of our brain allows for the degree of plasticity we have. Previous brains had lesser levels of complexity and plasticity.
dhw: I suggest that it is the brain’s plasticity that has allowed for both enlargement and complexity.These NEEDED plasticity in order to occur.
Plasticity has been shown to shrink the brain through complexification.
dhw: The sapiens brain as an endpoint does not mean that every other organism came into existence for the sake of the sapiens brain.
DAVID: Everything we see in evolution points to the human brain as a supreme endpoint. answered many times before.dhw: I have no idea what the human brain will be like in a billion years’ time, but in any case I’m afraid your “balance of nature” argument will never persuade me that a God whose purpose was to produce sapiens’ brain - no matter how "supreme" it may be - found it necessary also to produce the millions of other life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders extant and extinct.
Balance of nature feeds everyone over time since evolution takes time.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Friday, December 29, 2017, 09:07 (2522 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: There is no evidence the brain rewires in anticipation of new concepts or implementations.
dhw: Thank you for this important concession.
DAVID: Not a concession. Fact.
The concession is that your own hypothesis of brain changes preceding conceptualization has no basis in fact, unlike the hypothesis that conceptualization CAUSES changes to the brain.
dhw: I’ve explained before why I don’t like your computer analogy, so let’s stick to the brain and the s/s/c. Here is a clear statement of your beliefs as I understand them: the s/s/c uses the brain as a source of information and as a tool to implement its concepts, but it does not use the cortex to do its thinking because it is the s/s/c that does the thinking. Correct or not?
DAVID: No, the s/s/c uses the brain/cortex to think. Brain and s/s/c work seamlessly.
They can hardly be “seamless” if, as you believe, the s/s/c can live on separately from the brain/cortex (as in NDEs). They are interdependent, but – if dualists are correct – there has to be a distinction between mental and physical functions. And so if the s/s/c does not use the brain to gather information and to implement its concepts, what DOES it “use” the brain for?
dhw: That does not mean the pre-frontal cortex is the SOURCE of concepts. To use your messy computer analogy, that is like saying the computer is the source of the ideas put into it by the software. That is why I have asked for clarity above. If the s/s/c does the thinking, it is the source of concepts.
DAVID: I sit at the computer keyboard and operate its software as I wish to produce results. Seamlessly. I am in control of my consciousness, which developed as a blank slate from birth.
You have agreed that you ARE your soul/self/consciousness (s/s/c), so your utterly confusing computer analogy (which equated software with soul and computer with brain) now has your soul operating your soul. And all this confusion is meant simply to squirm out of the obvious fact that if your dualistic mind and body are separate entities (though working interdependently), it is the mind/soul/self/consciousness and not the material brain that is the SOURCE of concepts.
DAVID: Size is not the real issue...
dhw: So please stop harping on about the fact that modern usage did not come about until after the final enlargement.
DAVID: …It is initial complexity. The original sapiens brain had an enlarged highly complex frontal and prefrontal cortex with many more neurons and axon branched connections before it was used for modern concepts.
dhw: Of course there was initial complexity, and I suspect that in the last 10,000 years that complexity has increased. Both enlargement and increasing complexity depend on plasticity, not the other way round (see below).
DAVID: 200cc of new cortex is not cased by plasticity. that occurs after the jump in size and complexity.
The “case” could not have contained the extra 200cc if it had not been plastic enough to expand. (See below)
DAVID: God gave us free will to use the gift of the complex brain as we wished. Our concepts, not His.
dhw: [..] you challenged me to tell you which specific concept forced the final enlargement, and so I have challenged you to tell me which specific concepts followed on from your God’s supposed enlargement of the pre-sapiens brain and the final one of the sapiens brain. Or do you think each successive divine enlargement was for no particular purpose at all?
DAVID: Each God-given enlargement allowed a more improved lifestyle, moving from survival living to current civilization.
No specific concept, then, but I’ll settle for this, except that in my hypothesis it is the quest for a more improved lifestyle, moving from survival living to current civilization, that has CAUSED each enlargement and, after pre-sapiens, each complexification. The history of the brain follows the same pattern as the rest of evolution: a process motivated by survival and/or improvement.
DAVID: The complexity of our brain allows for the degree of plasticity we have. Previous brains had lesser levels of complexity and plasticity.
dhw: I suggest that it is the brain’s plasticity that has allowed for both enlargement and complexity.These NEEDED plasticity in order to occur.
DAVID: Plasticity has been shown to shrink the brain through complexification.
True. However, it is not enlargement/complexity/shrinkage that “allows for the degree of plasticity”, but the degree of plasticity that allows for enlargement/complexity/shrinkage.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Monday, January 08, 2018, 16:16 (2511 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: There is no evidence the brain rewires in anticipation of new concepts or implementations.
dhw: Thank you for this important concession.
DAVID: Not a concession. Fact.dhw: The concession is that your own hypothesis of brain changes preceding conceptualization has no basis in fact, unlike the hypothesis that conceptualization CAUSES changes to the brain.
Of course an existing brain rewires. But we know that a newly enlarged hominin brain is certainly a blank slate, except for what is carried from the past.
DAVID: No, the s/s/c uses the brain/cortex to think. Brain and s/s/c work seamlessly.
dhw: They can hardly be “seamless” if, as you believe, the s/s/c can live on separately from the brain/cortex (as in NDEs). They are interdependent, but – if dualists are correct – there has to be a distinction between mental and physical functions. And so if the s/s/c does not use the brain to gather information and to implement its concepts, what DOES it “use” the brain for?
Living brain/soul mechanisms are not the same as dead brain and soul: they are longer related! s/s/c uses the brain as a living computer.
dhw: You have agreed that you ARE your soul/self/consciousness (s/s/c), so your utterly confusing computer analogy (which equated software with soul and computer with brain) now has your soul operating your soul. And all this confusion is meant simply to squirm out of the obvious fact that if your dualistic mind and body are separate entities (though working interdependently), it is the mind/soul/self/consciousness and not the material brain that is the SOURCE of concepts.
Your computer is not you, but your computer provides you with the ability to produce immaterial thought as material to be read. You are separate from your computer but you live with your brain as part of you. The s/s/c must use the brain in the same way. The NDE's tell us the s/s/c can separate and be functional.
DAVID: Each God-given enlargement allowed a more improved lifestyle, moving from survival living to current civilization.
dhw: No specific concept, then, but I’ll settle for this, except that in my hypothesis it is the quest for a more improved lifestyle, moving from survival living to current civilization, that has CAUSED each enlargement and, after pre-sapiens, each complexification. The history of the brain follows the same pattern as the rest of evolution: a process motivated by survival and/or improvement.
I do not think erectus wished for a better life style. He couldn't think beyond what he knew in his life.
DAVID: The complexity of our brain allows for the degree of plasticity we have. Previous brains had lesser levels of complexity and plasticity.
dhw: I suggest that it is the brain’s plasticity that has allowed for both enlargement and complexity.These NEEDED plasticity in order to occur.
DAVID: Plasticity has been shown to shrink the brain through complexification.dhw: True. However, it is not enlargement/complexity/shrinkage that “allows for the degree of plasticity”, but the degree of plasticity that allows for enlargement/complexity/shrinkage.
A thinking brain cannot cause enlargemnt of itself or its bony container, the skull, only shrinkage as shown by sapiens history.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Wednesday, January 10, 2018, 11:03 (2510 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: […] your own hypothesis of brain changes preceding conceptualization has no basis in fact, unlike the hypothesis that conceptualization CAUSES changes to the brain.
DAVID: Of course an existing brain rewires. But we know that a newly enlarged hominin brain is certainly a blank slate, except for what is carried from the past.
You can argue that every new born brain - animal, hominin or sapiens - is a blank slate except for what is carried from the past. The latter is “nature”, and what is learned is “nurture”. How does that alter the fact that we KNOW the implementation of concepts changes the brain, whereas we have no evidence that the brain changes BEFORE it can come up with new concepts?
dhw: …if the s/s/c does not use the brain to gather information and to implement its concepts, what DOES it “use” the brain for?
DAVID: Living brain/soul mechanisms are not the same as dead brain and soul: they are longer related! s/s/c uses the brain as a living computer.
The same totally unnecessary and unhelpful computer analogy. Why don’t you just answer my straightforward question? (See below)
DAVID: I sit at the computer keyboard and operate its software.
dhw: You have agreed that you ARE your soul/self/consciousness (s/s/c), so your utterly confusing computer analogy (which equated software with soul and computer with brain) now has your soul operating your soul. And all this confusion is meant simply to squirm out of the obvious fact that if your dualistic mind and body are separate entities (though working interdependently), it is the mind/soul/self/consciousness and not the material brain that is the SOURCE of concepts.
DAVID: Your computer is not you, but your computer provides you with the ability to produce immaterial thought as material to be read. You are separate from your computer but you live with your brain as part of you. The s/s/c must use the brain in the same way. The NDE's tell us the s/s/c can separate and be functional.
More computer obfuscation. First you have the soul operating the soul, and now you have the computer enabling me/my soul/my consciousness to do its thinking! Does the computer enable the software to think? Or does it simply implement the instructions of the software? I am separate from my computer but not from my brain, so I must use my brain “in the same way”: in the same way as what? As for NDEs, we know that software cannot function without a computer, whereas you tell us the soul can function without the brain. So what is the point of the analogy? My question to you was straightforward, and we do not need any analogies: Do you or do you not agree that the s/s/c uses the brain to gather information and to implement its concepts? What other concrete functions does it have?
DAVID: Each God-given enlargement allowed a more improved lifestyle, moving from survival living to current civilization.
dhw: No specific concept, then, but I’ll settle for this, except that in my hypothesis it is the quest for a more improved lifestyle, moving from survival living to current civilization, that has CAUSED each enlargement and, after pre-sapiens, each complexification. The history of the brain follows the same pattern as the rest of evolution: a process motivated by survival and/or improvement.
DAVID: I do not think erectus wished for a better life style. He couldn't think beyond what he knew in his life.
So why did he invent tools and weapons? Even most sapiens can’t think beyond what they know in life. It takes individual minds to come up with the innovations that then become part of what everyone knows in life.
DAVID: The complexity of our brain allows for the degree of plasticity we have.
dhw: …it is not enlargement/complexity/shrinkage that “allows for the degree of plasticity”, but the degree of plasticity that allows for enlargement/complexity/shrinkage.
DAVID: A thinking brain cannot cause enlargemnt of itself or its bony container, the skull, only shrinkage as shown by sapiens history.
Once again, nobody knows what caused brain enlargement, which is why we have so many different theories. However, if a thinking brain can cause shrinkage, it is not unreasonable to assume that it might also cause enlargement, just as physical exercise can cause enlargement of muscles.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 10, 2018, 15:20 (2509 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: You can argue that every new born brain - animal, hominin or sapiens - is a blank slate except for what is carried from the past. The latter is “nature”, and what is learned is “nurture”. How does that alter the fact that we KNOW the implementation of concepts changes the brain, whereas we have no evidence that the brain changes BEFORE it can come up with new concepts?
Evidence: Only newly enlarged brains are capable of producing new advanced artifacts.
DAVID: Your computer is not you, but your computer provides you with the ability to produce immaterial thought as material to be read. You are separate from your computer but you live with your brain as part of you. The s/s/c must use the brain in the same way. The NDE's tell us the s/s/c can separate and be functional.
dhw: More computer obfuscation. First you have the soul operating the soul, and now you have the computer enabling me/my soul/my consciousness to do its thinking! Does the computer enable the software to think? Or does it simply implement the instructions of the software?
I can think because I have an s/s/c which uses my brain to give me the thoughts. My material brain produces immaterial thoughts I have by the operation of the s/s/c.
dhw: I am separate from my computer but not from my brain, so I must use my brain “in the same way”: in the same way as what? As for NDEs, we know that software cannot function without a computer, whereas you tell us the soul can function without the brain. So what is the point of the analogy? My question to you was straightforward, and we do not need any analogies: Do you or do you not agree that the s/s/c uses the brain to gather information and to implement its concepts? What other concrete functions does it have?
The s/s/c uses the brain for information and concepts. The brain also runs the material functions of the body which the s/s/c can recognize and appreciate as a side issue for its main function.
DAVID: A thinking brain cannot cause enlargement of itself or its bony container, the skull, only shrinkage as shown by sapiens history.
dhw: Once again, nobody knows what caused brain enlargement, which is why we have so many different theories. However, if a thinking brain can cause shrinkage, it is not unreasonable to assume that it might also cause enlargement, just as physical exercise can cause enlargement of muscles.
And incidently tell the skull to enlarge by cellular committee agreement. Muscles are not bound by a bony case.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Thursday, January 11, 2018, 15:23 (2508 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: […] we KNOW the implementation of concepts changes the brain, whereas we have no evidence that the brain changes BEFORE it can come up with new concepts?
DAVID: Evidence: Only newly enlarged brains are capable of producing new advanced artifacts.
They can only produce new advances by expanding. In my hypothesis, the expansion does not precede the production, it is CAUSED by the production.
dhw: More computer obfuscation. First you have the soul operating the soul, and now you have the computer enabling me/my soul/my consciousness to do its thinking! Does the computer enable the software to think? Or does it simply implement the instructions of the software?
DAVID: I can think because I have an s/s/c which uses my brain to give me the thoughts. My material brain produces immaterial thoughts I have by the operation of the s/s/c.
How can your self/soul/consciousness use your brain to give your self/soul/consciousness its thoughts? You seem to think that your “I” is not your “self”! Once again: what does the thinking? Your s/s/c or your brain?
dhw: My question to you was straightforward, and we do not need any analogies: Do you or do you not agree that the s/s/c uses the brain to gather information and to implement its concepts? What other concrete functions does it have?
DAVID: The s/s/c uses the brain for information and concepts. The brain also runs the material functions of the body which the s/s/c can recognize and appreciate as a side issue for its main function.
Why have you changed the wording? “Uses the brain for concepts” is not clear. In the context of conceptualisation, the implementation of concepts is the material function. But I'll presume you agree.
DAVID: A thinking brain cannot cause enlargement of itself or its bony container, the skull, only shrinkage as shown by sapiens history.
dhw: Once again, nobody knows what caused brain enlargement, which is why we have so many different theories. However, if a thinking brain can cause shrinkage, it is not unreasonable to assume that it might also cause enlargement, just as physical exercise can cause enlargement of muscles.
DAVID: And incidently tell the skull to enlarge by cellular committee agreement. Muscles are not bound by a bony case.
The muscle reference was an analogy. You make it sound as if skull enlargement is an impossibility! The expansion happened, so the bone-producing cells had to be rearranged. The end result is the same, whether your God did it or the cell communities did it themselves, or random mutations or bipedalism or use of fire or of cooked food did it.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Thursday, January 11, 2018, 18:09 (2508 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: […] we KNOW the implementation of concepts changes the brain, whereas we have no evidence that the brain changes BEFORE it can come up with new concepts?
DAVID: Evidence: Only newly enlarged brains are capable of producing new advanced artifacts.dhw: They can only produce new advances by expanding. In my hypothesis, the expansion does not precede the production, it is CAUSED by the production.
The artifacts appear only after the larger brain has arrived. You can't avoid the time sequence.
dhw: More computer obfuscation. First you have the soul operating the soul, and now you have the computer enabling me/my soul/my consciousness to do its thinking! Does the computer enable the software to think? Or does it simply implement the instructions of the software?
Explained in the other entry. The s/s/c uses the brain to create thought.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Thursday, January 11, 2018, 18:14 (2508 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: […] we KNOW the implementation of concepts changes the brain, whereas we have no evidence that the brain changes BEFORE it can come up with new concepts?
DAVID: Evidence: Only newly enlarged brains are capable of producing new advanced artifacts.dhw: They can only produce new advances by expanding. In my hypothesis, the expansion does not precede the production, it is CAUSED by the production.
The artifacts appear only after the larger brain has arrived. You can't avoid the time sequence. We are different. The argument is 'push' or 'pull'. I chose pull based on timing of the events.
dhw: More computer obfuscation. First you have the soul operating the soul, and now you have the computer enabling me/my soul/my consciousness to do its thinking! Does the computer enable the software to think? Or does it simply implement the instructions of the software?
Explained in the other entry. The s/s/c uses the brain to create thought.
Brain complexity: new tasks make more myelin
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 24, 2018, 14:41 (2495 days ago) @ dhw
When an area of the brain becomes more active the axon fibers are coated with more myelin to speed transmission:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/active-brain-regions-make-more-myelin
"New research shows that increased electrical activity in an individual neuron leads to a thicker myelin coating around its axon, which can help speed up the transmission of neural signals.
***
"These axons are coated with a fatty layer of myelin that insulates the nerve fibres and facilitates conductivity. The more myelin, the faster the signal.
"Myelin is produced when oligodendrocyte progenitor cells (OPCs) in the central nervous system detect a “need more myelin” signal and mature into the oligodendrocytes that actually make it.
"It’s also known that learning new skills such as juggling or playing piano can induce long-term changes in the structure of white matter in humans. Moreover, mice that are unable to make new myelin have trouble learning complex motor tasks.
"Toby Merson of the Australian Regenerative Medicine Institute at Monash University in Melbourne, Australia, explains that through these and other studies “we’ve come to understand that electrical activity within axons in the central nervous system is able to stimulate more myelin to be produced”.
"However, it was unknown if it is a general process where more activity in a brain area leads to more myelin, or whether it is a precise mechanism where the myelin is targeted to the active axons.
"To find out, Merson and his colleagues increased the activity of a subset of neurons in the brains of mice, then checked to see if myelination also increased in these particular neurons.
***
"When we looked at the [active] axons we found they were more myelinated,” says Merson. “The adjacent axons that we hadn’t modified were unchanged.”
"To determine how myelin-making cells responded when the neurons became more active, the researchers tagged OPCs with a gene for a fluorescent protein, so that they glowed as they matured into active oligodendrocytes.
"Visual analysis confirmed these cells were not responding randomly.
“'They were preferentially myelinating the axons that we had activated,” explains Merson.
It appears there is a precise mechanism enabling myelin to be recruited to the axons that need it most.
“"In development or in plasticity of the brain, you would want those axons to be functioning more efficiently and firing faster, and myelination is the mechanism through which that can be achieved,” says Merson.
"Now that he knows how finely tuned the myelination response can be, he is investigating whether the electrical activity of the axon brings this about through direct interaction with nearby OPCs. "
Comment: Looks like a great designed system to me. It had to be created all at once for this reason: when the brain started to activate a region to handle a new task it is beneficial to happen quickly and adding more insulation to speed impulses is a necessary step. All the parts have to work together from the beginning. Too many parts to develop stepwise.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Sunday, December 24, 2017, 12:15 (2526 days ago) @ David Turell
Dhw: The dualist’s brain is required to provide information to the dualist’s soul/self/consciousness,...There is nothing so complex in this as to warrant anything other than a yes to the first question [i.e. Do you, as a dualist, believe that consciousness/the soul conceives concepts before using the brain to implement them?]
DAVID: The s/s/c uses the brain to acquire information.
And to implement its concepts, as a result of which the brain changes.
dhw: Are you now saying that pre-sapiens and our ape cousins did not/do not have a pre-frontal cortex???
DAVID: What?! Of course not. Most of the all animal and hominin brains are/were concerned with automatic functions like breathing, muscle control and coordination. It is the pre-frontal cortex which enlarged at each stage in hominin development by 200cc and allowed all the civilized concepts and functions we now have.
You have left out the rest of my paragraph. My point is that instead of saying the brain enlarged/complexified, you are saying the pre-frontal cortex enlarged/complexified. It makes no difference to the argument! You say your God enlarged the pre-sapiens cortex BEFORE pre-sapiens could come up with his new concepts, and I propose the cortex enlarged through the implementation of new concepts. You are quite right to say that the final enlargement (which in my hypothesis would have been the RESULT of implementing earlier concepts) preceded all the “civilized” concepts we have now, because by then the brain had stopped expanding and complexification had taken over.
dhw: And since you are a self-proclaimed dualist, the pre-frontal cortex for you is NOT the source of thought/conceptualization/decision-making: it can therefore only be a provider of information and an implementing tool of the soul/self/consciousness.
DAVID: It acts as advanced computer for the s/s/c. I view the brain as an instrument.
Of course you do, since you believe there is a soul that directs it, but in any case I agree that consciousness, whatever its source, uses the brain as an instrument. And that is why it makes no sense to argue that the s/s/c is unable to conceive its concepts until AFTER the brain has developed the means to implement the non-existent concept. Modern science proves that the brain REACTS to new concepts and it does not change in anticipation of them.
dhw: […] and so it is not unreasonable to assume that both expansion and complexification have always followed the same procedure.
DAVID: Two separate events. New larger pre-frontal cortex arrives with more neurons and more axon branching connections ready to be used in more complex ways. More complex use is, yes, handled by more neuroplasticity so more enlargement is not necessary.
The pre-sapiens brain and skull allowed for further expansion. You have said yourself that an indefinite expansion of the human skull is science fiction. And so once it had reached its optimum size, complexification took over. In both cases, the brain responds to new concepts.
DAVID: As far as I am concerned your entire approach is backward as shown by the time line of expansions before new artifacts appear.
dhw: New artefacts only appear together with the fossils of the pre-sapiens who made them, and their brains have already expanded through implementation of the concept. Changes are CAUSED by implementation and do not occur before it.
DAVID: Does not explain our modern artifacts appearing 290,000 years after our larger brain arrived and had not realized any of our civilized concepts now currently filling libraries of books and computer records.
Once again: the larger brain “arrived” and could not expand any more, so complexification took over. You have agreed that advances depend on individual intelligences. Approx. 10,000 years ago a few geniuses introduced highly productive new concepts, and these were then built on by subsequent generations. 290,000 years is nothing in evolutionary terms: erectus hung around for well over a million years without making much progress. And you continue to gloss over the fact that changes are CAUSED by implementation and do not occur before it.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Sunday, December 24, 2017, 18:48 (2526 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: You have left out the rest of my paragraph. My point is that instead of saying the brain enlarged/complexified, you are saying the pre-frontal cortex enlarged/complexified. It makes no difference to the argument! You say your God enlarged the pre-sapiens cortex BEFORE pre-sapiens could come up with his new concepts, and I propose the cortex enlarged through the implementation of new concepts.
The only evidence we have before us is the complexity that developed in illiterate women learning to read. That is implementation. The other fact we know is the modern sapiens brain is smaller as we civilized. And even though the human brain arrived 300,000 years ago, real civilized use of the brain began only 10,000 years ago and it is now a little smaller! We make tremendous use of the brain frontal lobe now. That is where the thought development and knowledge occurred.
dhw: You are quite right to say that the final enlargement (which in my hypothesis would have been the RESULT of implementing earlier concepts) preceded all the “civilized” concepts we have now, because by then the brain had stopped expanding and complexification had taken over.
Agree. complexity had to appear to keep the skull a reasonable size.
dhw: And since you are a self-proclaimed dualist, the pre-frontal cortex for you is NOT the source of thought/conceptualization/decision-making: it can therefore only be a provider of information and an implementing tool of the soul/self/consciousness.
DAVID: It acts as advanced computer for the s/s/c. I view the brain as an instrument.dhw: Of course you do, since you believe there is a soul that directs it, but in any case I agree that consciousness, whatever its source, uses the brain as an instrument. And that is why it makes no sense to argue that the s/s/c is unable to conceive its concepts until AFTER the brain has developed the means to implement the non-existent concept. Modern science proves that the brain REACTS to new concepts and it does not change in anticipation of them.
But all of the modern use of the brain came after the final enlargement of the pre-frontal lobes, not before. We do not know of a mental requirement that forced the final enlargement 300,000 years ago.
DAVID: Does not explain our modern artifacts appearing 290,000 years after our larger brain arrived and had not realized any of our civilized concepts now currently filling libraries of books and computer records.
dhw: Once again: the larger brain “arrived” and could not expand any more, so complexification took over. You have agreed that advances depend on individual intelligences. Approx. 10,000 years ago a few geniuses introduced highly productive new concepts, and these were then built on by subsequent generations. 290,000 years is nothing in evolutionary terms: erectus hung around for well over a million years without making much progress. And you continue to gloss over the fact that changes are CAUSED by implementation and do not occur before it.
Can you point out any complex implementations that occurred among humans before cave art 30,000 ywears ago? We had shelter, fire, hide clothing. Then really nothing more until 10,000 years ago. Size first, use second is so obvious.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Saturday, November 18, 2017, 18:12 (2562 days ago) @ David Turell
David: Not according to me re' brain and skull. I'm simply repeating the known history of hominin evolution. And how do you know the brain has reached its optimum size? Are you now agreeing with me that this size brain was a goal?
Correction, according to the currently accepted story of human evolution. The facts are separate from the story used to explain them. The facts are objective, the story is not, and depends on both the context and the larger supporting narrative.
I've often noticed that many of the disagreements between David and DHW revolve around story telling. David focuses on facts, DHW tends to focus on narrative. It is not that either one of you ignore the other side of the coin, merely that your primary focus is different. Perhaps this stems from Davids background in science and DHW's background with literature.
--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by dhw, Sunday, November 19, 2017, 14:27 (2561 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
David: Not according to me re' brain and skull. I'm simply repeating the known history of hominin evolution. And how do you know the brain has reached its optimum size? Are you now agreeing with me that this size brain was a goal?
TONY: Correction, according to the currently accepted story of human evolution. The facts are separate from the story used to explain them. The facts are objective, the story is not, and depends on both the context and the larger supporting narrative.
I've often noticed that many of the disagreements between David and DHW revolve around story telling. David focuses on facts, DHW tends to focus on narrative. It is not that either one of you ignore the other side of the coin, merely that your primary focus is different. Perhaps this stems from Davids background in science and DHW's background with literature.
Welcome back. I hope David is as flattered as I am that you have spent some time theorizing about us! Alas, though, I can’t agree with your theory. David and I agree that humans are here as a result of evolution (you won’t agree about evolution), which has produced a vast bush of organisms, lifestyles and natural wonders. Those are our “facts”. David’s “story” is that there is a God who started out with the intention of producing the brain of Homo sapiens, and apart from some personal dabbling, he preprogrammed the whole bush 3.8 billion years ago to keep life going until we saps arrived. (David will correct this if it’s wrong.)
I see no logical coherence in this “story”, and instead offer the theistic “story” (I’m an agnostic, so I include the possibility of a God) that God designed a mechanism (let’s call it cellular intelligence) whereby organisms did their own designing, and the human brain, like the whole higgledy-piggledy bush, is a natural development of the constant evolutionary drive of cellular communities (= organisms) for survival and/or improvement. Same facts, different stories. I’m afraid David’s explanation of his God’s evolutionary purpose and method has nothing whatsoever to do with science, while my own, though based initially on the findings of some eminent scientists regarding cellular intelligence, cannot claim to have scientific evidence that such a mechanism exists beyond one for minor adaptations. But David agrees that my story joins the “facts” together coherently. I shan’t go into detail over the numerous anomalies that have arisen out of his story.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks
by David Turell , Sunday, November 19, 2017, 15:16 (2561 days ago) @ dhw
David: Not according to me re' brain and skull. I'm simply repeating the known history of hominin evolution. And how do you know the brain has reached its optimum size? Are you now agreeing with me that this size brain was a goal?
TONY: Correction, according to the currently accepted story of human evolution. The facts are separate from the story used to explain them. The facts are objective, the story is not, and depends on both the context and the larger supporting narrative.
I've often noticed that many of the disagreements between David and DHW revolve around story telling. David focuses on facts, DHW tends to focus on narrative. It is not that either one of you ignore the other side of the coin, merely that your primary focus is different. Perhaps this stems from Davids background in science and DHW's background with literature.dhw: Welcome back. I hope David is as flattered as I am that you have spent some time theorizing about us! Alas, though, I can’t agree with your theory. David and I agree that humans are here as a result of evolution (you won’t agree about evolution), which has produced a vast bush of organisms, lifestyles and natural wonders. Those are our “facts”. David’s “story” is that there is a God who started out with the intention of producing the brain of Homo sapiens, and apart from some personal dabbling, he preprogrammed the whole bush 3.8 billion years ago to keep life going until we saps arrived. (David will correct this if it’s wrong.)
I see no logical coherence in this “story”, and instead offer the theistic “story” (I’m an agnostic, so I include the possibility of a God) that God designed a mechanism (let’s call it cellular intelligence) whereby organisms did their own designing, and the human brain, like the whole higgledy-piggledy bush, is a natural development of the constant evolutionary drive of cellular communities (= organisms) for survival and/or improvement. Same facts, different stories. I’m afraid David’s explanation of his God’s evolutionary purpose and method has nothing whatsoever to do with science, while my own, though based initially on the findings of some eminent scientists regarding cellular intelligence, cannot claim to have scientific evidence that such a mechanism exists beyond one for minor adaptations. But David agrees that my story joins the “facts” together coherently. I shan’t go into detail over the numerous anomalies that have arisen out of his story.
Good summary of our differences. I see God as pure purpose and you see Him needing entertainment.
Brain complexity: fine-tuned for selective hearing
by David Turell , Monday, December 11, 2017, 20:05 (2539 days ago) @ David Turell
New research finds areas in the brain that can pick out certain instruments in an orchestra:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-12-brain.html
"How is it that we are able—without any noticeable effort—to listen to a friend talk in a crowded café or follow the melody of a violin within an orchestra?
"A team led by scientists at Carnegie Mellon University and Birkbeck, University of London has developed a new approach to how the brain singles out a specific stream of sound from other distracting sounds. Using a novel experimental approach, the scientists non-invasively mapped sustained auditory selective attention in the human brain.
***
"To understand how paying attention to the melodies changed brain activation, the researchers took advantage of a key way that sound information is laid out across the surface, or cortex, of the brain. The cortex contains many 'tonotopic' maps of auditory frequency, where each map represents frequency a little like an old radio display, with low frequencies on one end, going to high on the other. These maps are put together like pieces of a puzzle in the top part of the brain's temporal lobes.
"When people in the MRI scanner listened to the melodies at different frequencies, the parts of the maps tuned to these frequencies were activated. What was surprising was that just paying attention to these frequencies activated the brain in a very similar way—not only in a few core areas, but also over much of the cortex where sound information is known to arrive and be processed.
"The researchers then used a new high-resolution brain imaging technique called multiparameter mapping to see how the activation to hearing or just paying attention to different frequencies related to another key brain feature, or myelination. Myelin is the 'electrical insulation' of the brain, and brain regions differ a lot in how much myelin insulation is wrapped around the parts of neurons that transmit information.
"In comparing the frequency and myelin maps, the researchers found that they were very related in specific areas: if there was an increase in the amount of myelin across a small patch of cortex, there was also an increase in how strong a preference neurons had for particular frequencies.
"This was an exciting finding because it potentially revealed some shared 'fault lines' in the auditory brain," said Frederic Dick, professor of auditory cognitive neuroscience at Birkbeck College and University College London. "Like earth scientists who try to understand what combination of soil, water and air conditions makes some land better for growing a certain crop, as neuroscientists we can start to understand how subtle differences in the brain's functional and structural architecture might make some regions more 'fertile ground' for learning new information like language or music.'"
Comment: The research shows how specific areas can be utilized for specific functions. Since a natural unguided evolutionary is supposed to produce our brain, how did the natural process know what future functions might be needed in the future brain?
Brain complexity: fine-tuned for selective hearing
by dhw, Tuesday, December 12, 2017, 09:20 (2539 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID’s comment: The research shows how specific areas can be utilized for specific functions. Since a natural unguided evolutionary is supposed to produce our brain, how did the natural process know what future functions might be needed in the future brain?
It didn’t. You keep emphasizing the plasticity of the brain, and that works in RESPONSE to new demands, not in anticipation of them. The Indian women learned to write, and their brains complexified. Someone invented the violin, and the brain complexified. We learn to listen to an orchestra, and the brain complexifies. I do not believe for one second that the first living cells were preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago with instructions for the making of brains and for the adjustments of brains to enable them to distinguish the sound of a violin. But I fully accept the possibility that the astonishingly complex mechanisms of the brain evolved from the astonishingly complex mechanisms of the cell/cell communities, and that these mechanisms may have been the invention of your God.
Brain complexity: fine-tuned for selective hearing
by David Turell , Wednesday, December 13, 2017, 01:10 (2538 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID’s comment: The research shows how specific areas can be utilized for specific functions. Since a natural unguided evolutionary is supposed to produce our brain, how did the natural process know what future functions might be needed in the future brain?
dhw: It didn’t. You keep emphasizing the plasticity of the brain, and that works in RESPONSE to new demands, not in anticipation of them. The Indian women learned to write, and their brains complexified. Someone invented the violin, and the brain complexified. We learn to listen to an orchestra, and the brain complexifies. I do not believe for one second that the first living cells were preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago with instructions for the making of brains and for the adjustments of brains to enable them to distinguish the sound of a violin. But I fully accept the possibility that the astonishingly complex mechanisms of the brain evolved from the astonishingly complex mechanisms of the cell/cell communities, and that these mechanisms may have been the invention of your God.
But you are not recognizing that all animal brains that resemble ours have the same uses in the same areas. We can study mouse brains to learn how ours work. Looks like a pattern of design to me.
Brain complexity: fine-tuned for selective hearing
by dhw, Wednesday, December 13, 2017, 13:38 (2537 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID’s comment: The research shows how specific areas can be utilized for specific functions. Since a natural unguided evolutionary is supposed to produce our brain, how did the natural process know what future functions might be needed in the future brain? (dhw’s bold)
dhw: It didn’t. You keep emphasizing the plasticity of the brain, and that works in RESPONSE to new demands, not in anticipation of them. The Indian women learned to write, and their brains complexified. Someone invented the violin, and the brain complexified. We learn to listen to an orchestra, and the brain complexifies. I do not believe for one second that the first living cells were preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago with instructions for the making of brains and for the adjustments of brains to enable them to distinguish the sound of a violin. But I fully accept the possibility that the astonishingly complex mechanisms of the brain evolved from the astonishingly complex mechanisms of the cell/cell communities, and that these mechanisms may have been the invention of your God.
DAVID: But you are not recognizing that all animal brains that resemble ours have the same uses in the same areas. We can study mouse brains to learn how ours work. Looks like a pattern of design to me.
Of course brains work in the same way, and of course the pattern has been passed down from our predecessors. That’s evolution for you. But you asked how a natural process could know what future functions might be needed in a future brain (as if your God must have anticipated and preprogrammed them all). My response explains why I do not think they were all preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago. No clairvoyance needed, because the brain complexifies in RESPONSE to and not in anticipation of new concepts.
Brain complexity: fine-tuned for selective hearing
by David Turell , Wednesday, December 13, 2017, 14:50 (2537 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID’s comment: The research shows how specific areas can be utilized for specific functions. Since a natural unguided evolutionary is supposed to produce our brain, how did the natural process know what future functions might be needed in the future brain? (dhw’s bold)
dhw: It didn’t. You keep emphasizing the plasticity of the brain, and that works in RESPONSE to new demands, not in anticipation of them. The Indian women learned to write, and their brains complexified. Someone invented the violin, and the brain complexified. We learn to listen to an orchestra, and the brain complexifies. I do not believe for one second that the first living cells were preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago with instructions for the making of brains and for the adjustments of brains to enable them to distinguish the sound of a violin. But I fully accept the possibility that the astonishingly complex mechanisms of the brain evolved from the astonishingly complex mechanisms of the cell/cell communities, and that these mechanisms may have been the invention of your God.
DAVID: But you are not recognizing that all animal brains that resemble ours have the same uses in the same areas. We can study mouse brains to learn how ours work. Looks like a pattern of design to me.
dhw: Of course brains work in the same way, and of course the pattern has been passed down from our predecessors. That’s evolution for you. But you asked how a natural process could know what future functions might be needed in a future brain (as if your God must have anticipated and preprogrammed them all). My response explains why I do not think they were all preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago. No clairvoyance needed, because the brain complexifies in RESPONSE to and not in anticipation of new concepts.
The answere is in the other thread. The highly complex pre-frontal cortex from 300,000 years ago was waiting to be used and when needed to happen, complexify more, and actually shrink a bit in mass.
Brain complexity: fine-tuned for selective hearing
by dhw, Thursday, December 14, 2017, 11:17 (2537 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: [...] you asked how a natural process could know what future functions might be needed in a future brain (as if your God must have anticipated and preprogrammed them all). My response explains why I do not think they were all preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago. No clairvoyance needed, because the brain complexifies in RESPONSE to and not in anticipation of new concepts.
DAVID: The answer is in the other thread. The highly complex pre-frontal cortex from 300,000 years ago was waiting to be used and when needed to happen, complexify more, and actually shrink a bit in mass.
Again, why “waiting to be used”? Do you think early sapiens sat there like a dummy for 290,000 years? The already highly complex brain had reached its optimum size 300,000 years ago, and so from then on it had to complexify even more in order to implement new concepts. 10,000 years ago there was an explosion of new concepts, and so it is not unreasonable to assume that the brain would have undergone even more complexification than before, and did it so efficiently that it shrank a little. None of this means that your God preprogrammed every future function 3.8 billion years ago, expanded/complexified the brain in advance, and then left it hanging around waiting to be used. We know from modern science that the brain responds to new concepts. It does not change before the concepts require change.
xxxx
I have run out of time, so I will have to leave your new posts till tomorrow.
Brain complexity: fine-tuned for selective hearing
by David Turell , Thursday, December 21, 2017, 00:18 (2530 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: The answer is in the other thread. The highly complex pre-frontal cortex from 300,000 years ago was waiting to be used and when needed to happen, complexify more, and actually shrink a bit in mass.dhw: Again, why “waiting to be used”? Do you think early sapiens sat there like a dummy for 290,000 years? The already highly complex brain had reached its optimum size 300,000 years ago, and so from then on it had to complexify even more in order to implement new concepts. 10,000 years ago there was an explosion of new concepts, and so it is not unreasonable to assume that the brain would have undergone even more complexification than before, and did it so efficiently that it shrank a little. None of this means that your God preprogrammed every future function 3.8 billion years ago, expanded/complexified the brain in advance, and then left it hanging around waiting to be used. We know from modern science that the brain responds to new concepts. It does not change before the concepts require change.
You keep ignorilng the requirements of a survival mode of living. Haven't you ever camped out for a week of so? No phone. No books. Just nature: shelter, movement, finding food, fire, and a small socila group. Literally does not require the brain we have now in an civilized city. How many concepts did humans have 10,000 years ago? A miniscule amount compared to now. Luckily God provided us with one big enough to encompass it all. Where were all the stone age concepts to force a 200 cc final enlargement? Non-existent.
Brain complexity: fine-tuned for selective hearing
by dhw, Friday, December 22, 2017, 11:00 (2529 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: None of this means that your God preprogrammed every future function 3.8 billion years ago, expanded/complexified the brain in advance, and then left it hanging around waiting to be used. We know from modern science that the brain responds to new concepts. It does not change before the concepts require change.
DAVID: You keep ignoring the requirements of a survival mode of living. Haven't you ever camped out for a week of so? No phone. No books. Just nature: shelter, movement, finding food, fire, and a small socila group. Literally does not require the brain we have now in an civilized city. How many concepts did humans have 10,000 years ago? A miniscule amount compared to now. Luckily God provided us with one big enough to encompass it all. Where were all the stone age concepts to force a 200 cc final enlargement? Non-existent.
I’m afraid I don’t know enough about the minds of our ancestors throughout the approx. 3.5 million years of the stone age, but I would suggest that they might well have come up with such concepts as making and using tools, using fire, making clothes, developing language, all of which would have undergone continued improvements requiring further expansions for their implementation, including the last one. But what you in turn keep ignoring is that the brain RESPONDS to new concepts. It does not change in anticipation of them. I don’t know why you are so preoccupied with camping, but since it’s so important to you, yes I have, probably in far more arduous circumstances than you, when a series of accidents left a group of us stranded on the edge of the Sahara desert! Your survival mode camper and your so-called primitive tribesman have the same sized brain, and no individual can possibly exhaust the full potential of the human mind, but that potential does not depend on the SIZE of the brain, which has stopped expanding! The explosion of advances during the last 10,000 years or so (we have already discussed the reasons for this) has been made through the brain’s ability to COMPLEXIFY. And so if you want to thank your God for anything, it is surely the plasticity, which enabled the brain initially to expand and then to complexify as it implemented and continues to implement new concepts. (See also under “new tasks”).
Brain complexity: fine-tuned for selective hearing
by David Turell , Friday, December 22, 2017, 15:25 (2528 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: You keep ignoring the requirements of a survival mode of living. Haven't you ever camped out for a week of so? No phone. No books. Just nature: shelter, movement, finding food, fire, and a small socila group. Literally does not require the brain we have now in an civilized city. How many concepts did humans have 10,000 years ago? A miniscule amount compared to now. Luckily God provided us with one big enough to encompass it all. Where were all the stone age concepts to force a 200 cc final enlargement? Non-existent.dhw: But what you in turn keep ignoring is that the brain RESPONDS to new concepts. It does not change in anticipation of them. I don’t know why you are so preoccupied with camping, but since it’s so important to you, yes I have, probably in far more arduous circumstances than you, when a series of accidents left a group of us stranded on the edge of the Sahara desert! Your survival mode camper and your so-called primitive tribesman have the same sized brain, and no individual can possibly exhaust the full potential of the human mind, but that potential does not depend on the SIZE of the brain, which has stopped expanding!
You have not commented on the size of cortex. The pre-frontal cortex of the modern human is a highly complex network of neurons and branched axons and it is that additiion that added 200cc to the skull size to contain this enlargement. To contain all of its complexity it is highly convoluted. That predicessors did not have this type of brain is shown by existing fossil skulls. Neanderthal skulls make the point. Their brains were bigger but their pre-frontal cortex was not as large. That advanced area arrived 290,000 years before we really began to have advanded concepts as we civilized. Obviously size came first and then use which didn't have to expand the brain b ecasue the cortex was so advanced and had the ability of neuroplasticity as you point out. The time table tells the story, no matter how much you twist and turn the logic.
Brain complexity: learning new tasks depends on dendrites
by David Turell , Friday, March 23, 2018, 18:22 (2437 days ago) @ David Turell
New research moves the memory development from synapse changes to dendrite controls:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180323084818.htm
" In the new dendritic learning scenario (right) only two adjustable red valves are located in close proximity to the computational element, the neuron.
"The brain is a complex network containing billions of neurons, where each of these neurons communicates simultaneously with thousands of other via their synapses (links). However, the neuron actually collects its many synaptic incoming signals through several extremely long ramified "arms" only, called dendritic trees.
"In 1949 Donald Hebb's pioneering work suggested that learning occurs in the brain by modifying the strength of the synapses, whereas neurons function as the computational elements in the brain. This has remained the common assumption until today.
"Using new theoretical results and experiments on neuronal cultures, a group of scientists, led by Prof. Ido Kanter, of the Department of Physics and the Gonda (Goldschmied) Multidisciplinary Brain Research Center at Bar-Ilan University, has demonstrated that the central assumption for nearly 70 years that learning occurs only in the synapses is mistaken.
"In an article published today in the journal Scientific Reports, the researchers go against conventional wisdom to show that learning is actually done by several dendrites, similar to the slow learning mechanism currently attributed to the synapses.
"'The newly discovered process of learning in the dendrites occurs at a much faster rate than in the old scenario suggesting that learning occurs solely in the synapses. In this new dendritic learning process, there are a few adaptive parameters per neuron, in comparison to thousands of tiny and sensitive ones in the synaptic learning scenario," said Prof. Kanter,
***
"Another important finding of the study is that weak synapses, previously assumed to be insignificant even though they comprise the majority of our brain, play an important role in the dynamics of our brain. They induce oscillations of the learning parameters rather than pushing them to unrealistic fixed extremes, as suggested in the current synaptic learning scenario."
Comment: This adds another level of complexity and precise control to the brain as it develops new knowledge. We must continue to recognize the material side of the equation in the relationship between brain and s/s/c. It shows how the s/s/c is obligated to specific interfaces.
Brain complexity: instinct controls in mice
by David Turell , Wednesday, April 04, 2018, 17:53 (2425 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by David Turell, Wednesday, April 04, 2018, 18:10
How dopamine triggers mice moms to gather up the litter of pups:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-04-moms-brains-hard-wired-young.html
"A mother's "basic instinct" to grab her wandering offspring and return them to the nest depends on a specific set of brain cell signals, a new study in mice finds.
"Reporting in the journal Neuron online April 4, NYU School of Medicine scientists traced the roots of this behavior to brain cells that make the signaling chemical dopamine, release of which is known to create feelings of satisfaction.
"'Our study shows precisely how a maternal instinct is generated in the mammalian brain," says study senior investigator Dayu Lin, PhD, an assistant professor at the Neuroscience Institute at NYU Langone Health.
"Lin says that because evolution has conserved biochemistry in most mammals, the findings may help to explain human maternal behaviors, such as breastfeeding and rocking a newborn, and could suggest new ways to help new mothers who have trouble nursing or bonding with their infants.
"'Moreover, we believe that the findings overturn the longstanding idea that the dopamine system produces a 'rush' after a good behavior, and argue instead that dopamine may drive actions before any satisfaction is felt," says Lin.
"For the study, researchers monitored brain activity in dozens of female mice as they interacted with their own and others' pups. The research team focused on a region near the front of the brain called the medial preoptic area (MPOA), which previous work had shown was key to pup retrieval in mother mice.
"Tests showed that among the millions of cells in this brain region, the few that had a signaling protein on their surfaces called estrogen receptor alpha expressing (MPOA Esr1) were the most active electrically when mothers located and then brought their pups back to the nest. This activity dropped once the pups were returned.
"Chemically stimulating hundreds of thousands of these cells at once triggered mother mice to immediately pick up their pups. Even virgin mice would retrieve pups that were not theirs when these cells were artificially turned on. When researchers chemically blocked activity in these cells, all retrieval efforts stopped.
"Looking for other regions of the brain supporting this instinctual behavior, the researchers traced extensions, or axons, of MPOA Esr1 nerve cells to another brain region, the ventral tegmental area (VTA), where dopamine is produced. Previous research, Lin says, had shown that chemically blocking cells in the VTA impaired retrieval behaviors. In the new study, researchers found that stimulating MPOA Esr1 axons that projected to the VTA of mother mice led—within seconds—to pup retrieval. And brain recordings in new mother mice confirmed that these MPOA Esr1 cells were active when these mice gathered their offspring."
Comment: Once again we see the material side of conscious activity depends on chemicals in the brain, and it must be accepted that human instinctual reactions can have the same basis even though we have a higher level of consciousness. Our immaterial consciousness is based in a material brain, no way around it.
Brain complexity: instinct controls in mice
by David Turell , Thursday, September 10, 2020, 19:09 (1535 days ago) @ David Turell
Another control over parenting is found:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02586-w?utm_source=Nature+Briefing&utm_c...
“Catherine Dulac has done amazing work that has really transformed the field,” says biologist Lauren O’Connell, at Stanford University, California. Dulac’s team provided the first evidence that male and female mouse brains have the same neural circuitry associated with parenting, which is just triggered differently in each sex1. “It went against the dogma that for decades said that male and female brains are organized differently,” says O’Connell.
***
"In the 1990s, Dulac isolated the pheromone receptors in mice that govern sex-specific social behaviours. Virgin male mice usually attack other males and kill pups. But Dulac found that if their pheromone receptors were blocked, they would attempt to mate with both males and females, and virgin males would even care for pups. Pheromone-blind females, by contrast, would attempt to mount males.
"To elucidate the neural mechanisms at play, Dulac identified a protein called galanin that is expressed by neurons involved in parenting. Killing the neurons in females stopped them parenting, while activating them in virgin males made them maternal. “It’s like an on-and-off switch for parenting,” says Dulac. “It’s extraordinary.” Her team then used the galanin marker to track the specific circuitry associated with the motivational, hormonal and behavioural changes needed for nurturing.
"O’Connell says that the studies “set the stage for a better understanding of the flexibility of human and primate brains”, and could one day be relevant for treating disorders such as post-partum depression."
Comment: The male and female brains are the same neurologically except for the female neurons that make galanin. Female mice have no concept that previous pleasurable sex with a male produced her pups later on. But parenting is essential for survival. How did galanin arrive through evolution? Not from mouse thought. Not by chance. This vital function must be designed.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Tuesday, January 16, 2018, 19:49 (2503 days ago) @ David Turell
Newborn baby brains are totally a blank slate. How they learn touch is studied as it is the first sensation they ex perience:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-01-sight-babies-brains-foundations.html
"Touch is the first of the five senses to develop, yet scientists know far less about the baby's brain response to touch than to, say, the sight of mom's face, or the sound of her voice.
***
"University of Washington researchers provide one of the first looks inside the infant's brain to show where the sense of touch is processed—not just when a baby feels a touch to the hand or foot, but when the baby sees an adult's hand or foot being touched, as well.
"The evidence of activity in the somatosensory cortex for both "felt touch" and "observed touch" shows that 7-month-old infants have already made a basic connection between "self" and "other," which researchers say lays the groundwork for imitating and learning from the behavior of other people, and for empathizing with them.
***
"'Long before babies acquire spoken language, touch is a crucial channel of communication between caregivers and babies," said the study's primary author, Andrew Meltzoff
***
"The data showed that, when the hand was touched, the hand area of the somatosensory cortex was activated in all 14 infants tested; when the foot was touched, activation occurred in the foot area of the brains of all of the infants but one.
"A different group of infants provided data for the "observed touch" experiment, in which they also were seated in the MEG but watched separate videos of an adult hand and an adult foot being touched by a small rod. Researchers discovered that the infants' own somatosensory cortex (the "touch center" in the baby brain) also became activated when the babies simply observed someone else being touched.
"There was a weaker response to "observed touch" than to "felt touch," which was expected, Meltzoff said. The same is true of adults: A touch to your own hand is going to generate greater brain activity in the somatosensory cortex than merely seeing the touch to someone else's hand.
"The key, Meltzoff pointed out, is that the same part of the infant's brain registered both kinds of touch, indicating a baby's capacity for recognizing the similarity between their own body parts and those they see in other people.
***
"As parents know, babies watch and imitate what adults do. Imitation is a powerful learning mechanism for infants, but in order to imitate, infants have to perceive how body parts correspond. In other words, they need to reproduce the same movement with the same part when they imitate what their parent is doing. Scientists have wondered how infants make this connection. "Before they have words for the body parts, babies recognize that their hand is like your hand, and their foot is like your foot. The neural body map helps connect babies to other people: The recognition that another person is 'like me' may be one of the baby's first social insights," Meltzoff explained.
"With development, this "like-me" recognition eventually flowers into feeling empathy for someone else. If you see someone accidentally hit their thumb with a hammer, you rapidly, if perhaps imperceptibly, recoil by moving your hand. This is where a shared neural body map that connects self to other comes into play."
Comment: A very clear example of how the soul/self/consciousness/brain had to start from zero to learn every function of s/s/c/brain activity. A newborn baby does this over a 25- year period when the frontal lobe is fully developed. Note the importance of this point. A person's completeness requires the brain to be fully developed. The s/s/c can only use what the brain offers for use from the beginning of a new life. One can see that the first sapiens also had a partial blank slate which had to be experimented with and learned how to use it. The brilliant ones taught the slower learners over the 270,000 years, as dhw has pointed out.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Wednesday, January 17, 2018, 13:52 (2502 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID's comment: A very clear example of how the soul/self/consciousness/brain had to start from zero to learn every function of s/s/c/brain activity. A newborn baby does this over a 25- year period when the frontal lobe is fully developed. Note the importance of this point. A person's completeness requires the brain to be fully developed. The s/s/c can only use what the brain offers for use from the beginning of a new life. One can see that the first sapiens also had a partial blank slate which had to be experimented with and learned how to use it. The brilliant ones taught the slower learners over the 270,000 years, as dhw has pointed out.
This is far too simple. There were marked differences of character (self/soul) in my twin (non-identical) grandsons from the very moment they were born. The self does not start from zero. From the moment any child is born, it can cry or not cry in reaction to conditions, but we don’t always know why it is crying (hunger, discomfort, pain?). The same assumptions are made about animals – just because they can’t explain things to us, some folk think they have no feelings and no individuality. (But consciousness should not be equated with self-consciousness.) Of course, though, you are right about brain development and activity. As I keep repeating in posts about the brain, it provides the information which (dualistic version) the self/soul/consciousness processes and uses, and the more the brain develops, the more information it will provide, and so the more the self learns and can act on. But no organism is born with a blank slate self/soul. As for sapiens, his soul would have had far more information to absorb than all his predecessors, thanks to all the new concepts they had come up with and implemented before the final expansion. Every organism on earth has to experiment and learn how to use the brain (or brain equivalent) they were born with, so I don't know why you focus only on the first sapiens.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 17, 2018, 14:06 (2502 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID's comment: A very clear example of how the soul/self/consciousness/brain had to start from zero to learn every function of s/s/c/brain activity. A newborn baby does this over a 25- year period when the frontal lobe is fully developed. Note the importance of this point. A person's completeness requires the brain to be fully developed. The s/s/c can only use what the brain offers for use from the beginning of a new life. One can see that the first sapiens also had a partial blank slate which had to be experimented with and learned how to use it. The brilliant ones taught the slower learners over the 270,000 years, as dhw has pointed out.
dhw: This is far too simple. There were marked differences of character (self/soul) in my twin (non-identical) grandsons from the very moment they were born. The self does not start from zero. From the moment any child is born, it can cry or not cry in reaction to conditions, but we don’t always know why it is crying (hunger, discomfort, pain?). The same assumptions are made about animals – just because they can’t explain things to us, some folk think they have no feelings and no individuality. (But consciousness should not be equated with self-consciousness.) Of course, though, you are right about brain development and activity. As I keep repeating in posts about the brain, it provides the information which (dualistic version) the self/soul/consciousness processes and uses, and the more the brain develops, the more information it will provide, and so the more the self learns and can act on. But no organism is born with a blank slate self/soul. As for sapiens, his soul would have had far more information to absorb than all his predecessors, thanks to all the new concepts they had come up with and implemented before the final expansion. Every organism on earth has to experiment and learn how to use the brain (or brain equivalent) they were born with, so I don't know why you focus only on the first sapiens.
The focus on first sapiensis is to look at the gap in years until the brain they were given was more functionally used. As for newborn babies, they have all the instictual behavior you imply and all the automatic (autonomic) functions or they would not live. The differences in your grandsons are very apparent to you now, but not the day they were born. The differences appeared as they developed their brains and understood they had a self and were separate from the outside world. Child studies show this. From a 'thought' standpoint, they start blank.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Thursday, January 18, 2018, 13:57 (2501 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID's comment: A very clear example of how the soul/self/consciousness/brain had to start from zero to learn every function of s/s/c/brain activity. [...] One can see that the first sapiens also had a partial blank slate which had to be experimented with and learned how to use it. The brilliant ones taught the slower learners over the 270,000 years, as dhw has pointed out.
dhw: This is far too simple. There were marked differences of character (self/soul) in my twin (non-identical) grandsons from the very moment they were born. The self does not start from zero. [...] As for sapiens, his soul would have had far more information to absorb than all his predecessors, thanks to all the new concepts they had come up with and implemented before the final expansion. Every organism on earth has to experiment and learn how to use the brain (or brain equivalent) they were born with, so I don't know why you focus only on the first sapiens.
DAVID: The focus on first sapiensis is to look at the gap in years until the brain they were given was more functionally used.
You have gone back to the 270,000 years of comparative stagnation (see "big brain evolution"), which is no different from the hundreds of thousands of years of comparative stagnation in habilis and erectus, and which proved nothing except that there was an evolutionary pattern. And it doesn’t alter the fact that all organisms (including all pre-sapiens) have/had to experiment and learn, regardless of their brain size. Nothing special in that.
DAVID: As for newborn babies, they have all the instictual behavior you imply and all the automatic (autonomic) functions or they would not live. The differences in your grandsons are very apparent to you now, but not the day they were born. The differences appeared as they developed their brains and understood they had a self and were separate from the outside world. Child studies show this. From a 'thought' standpoint, they start blank.
Sorry, but you’re wrong, although interestingly the differences have changed quite dramatically during this first year of their existence. Ezra was needy and Sonny was placid right from birth. After a year, this has changed. Ezra is more confident and less needy than Sonny, though neither can yet articulate his thoughts. One could spend hours theorizing about it, and of course there may well be further changes. I don’t know what you mean by a “thought standpoint”, but I emphasized that one must not equate consciousness with self-consciousness. I am not saying that newborn babies or even toddlers have anything even approaching the same degree of self-consciousness as a teenager or an adult. My point was that your account was over-simplified, because I do not for one moment believe that the self is a complete blank/zero at birth - hence the concept of nature versus nurture. Newborn babies are not born with identical blank selves, but the self they are born with may well change.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Thursday, January 18, 2018, 17:39 (2501 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Every organism on earth has to experiment and learn how to use the brain (or brain equivalent) they were born with,
DAVID: The focus on first sapiensis is to look at the gap in years until the brain they were given was more functionally used.
DAVID: As for newborn babies, they have all the instictual behavior you imply and all the automatic (autonomic) functions or they would not live. The differences in your grandsons are very apparent to you now, but not the day they were born. The differences appeared as they developed their brains and understood they had a self and were separate from the outside world. Child studies show this. From a 'thought' standpoint, they start blank.
dhw:Sorry, but you’re wrong, although interestingly the differences have changed quite dramatically during this first year of their existence. Ezra was needy and Sonny was placid right from birth. After a year, this has changed. Ezra is more confident and less needy than Sonny, though neither can yet articulate his thoughts. One could spend hours theorizing about it, and of course there may well be further changes. I don’t know what you mean by a “thought standpoint”, but I emphasized that one must not equate consciousness with self-consciousness. I am not saying that newborn babies or even toddlers have anything even approaching the same degree of self-consciousness as a teenager or an adult. My point was that your account was over-simplified, because I do not for one moment believe that the self is a complete blank/zero at birth - hence the concept of nature versus nurture. Newborn babies are not born with identical blank selves, but the self they are born with may well change.
Just as you noted above everyone has to learn how to use their newborn or supplied brain. The point you miss is the baby starts at zero knowledge and zero out of uterine use, and the other point is they have different genomes which supplies differing parameters for s/s/c development. Of course the twins developed differently. What they are born with is a consciousness mechanism for their brains to use and learn to use it. They each started at zero.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Friday, January 19, 2018, 13:08 (2500 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Just as you noted above everyone has to learn how to use their newborn or supplied brain. The point you miss is the baby starts at zero knowledge and zero out of uterine use, and the other point is they have different genomes which supplies differing parameters for s/s/c development. Of course the twins developed differently. What they are born with is a consciousness mechanism for their brains to use and learn to use it. They each started at zero.
I had two objections to your original post. Firstly, there is nothing special about homo sapiens having to learn to use his brain. You now agree. Second was the idea that the soul/self starts “from zero to learn every function of self/soul/consciousness/brain activity”. I may have misunderstood this, but if all you meant was that a newborn baby knows nothing about life outside the womb, I shan’t argue. And yes indeed, they are born with different genomes, which a materialist will tell you explains their different characters/selves and hence their different responses to whatever early life throws at them. But if they have a dualist soul, according to your beliefs (most of the time), it is the soul that has to learn to use the brain, not the other way round. The twins did not start at zero, because the way in which they used their brain right from the first “WAH!” was dictated by their already existing (materialist) genome or (dualist) soul. The only zero was their knowledge of life outside the womb.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Friday, January 19, 2018, 19:53 (2500 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Just as you noted above everyone has to learn how to use their newborn or supplied brain. The point you miss is the baby starts at zero knowledge and zero out of uterine use, and the other point is they have different genomes which supplies differing parameters for s/s/c development. Of course the twins developed differently. What they are born with is a consciousness mechanism for their brains to use and learn to use it. They each started at zero.
dhw: I had two objections to your original post. Firstly, there is nothing special about homo sapiens having to learn to use his brain. You now agree. Second was the idea that the soul/self starts “from zero to learn every function of self/soul/consciousness/brain activity”. I may have misunderstood this, but if all you meant was that a newborn baby knows nothing about life outside the womb, I shan’t argue. And yes indeed, they are born with different genomes, which a materialist will tell you explains their different characters/selves and hence their different responses to whatever early life throws at them. But if they have a dualist soul, according to your beliefs (most of the time), it is the soul that has to learn to use the brain, not the other way round. The twins did not start at zero, because the way in which they used their brain right from the first “WAH!” was dictated by their already existing (materialist) genome or (dualist) soul. The only zero was their knowledge of life outside the womb.
Please see my entry from Cosmos today. It covers all of this.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Saturday, January 20, 2018, 14:20 (2499 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I had two objections to your original post. Firstly, there is nothing special about homo sapiens having to learn to use his brain. You now agree. Second was the idea that the soul/self starts “from zero to learn every function of self/soul/consciousness/brain activity”. I may have misunderstood this, but if all you meant was that a newborn baby knows nothing about life outside the womb, I shan’t argue. And yes indeed, they are born with different genomes, which a materialist will tell you explains their different characters/selves and hence their different responses to whatever early life throws at them. But if they have a dualist soul, according to your beliefs (most of the time), it is the soul that has to learn to use the brain, not the other way round. The twins did not start at zero, because the way in which they used their brain right from the first “WAH!” was dictated by their already existing (materialist) genome or (dualist) soul. The only zero was their knowledge of life outside the womb.
DAVID: Please see my entry from Cosmos today. It covers all of this.
Please see my reply. The experiment is with six-month old and not new born babies and tells us that babies learn in bursts, which vary from one individual to another (confirming my observations of my twin grandsons from birth). It does not tell us that newborn babies start from zero, or that the brain learns to use the soul, and it does not even discuss what dictates the individuality of the responses.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Saturday, January 20, 2018, 18:35 (2499 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: I had two objections to your original post. Firstly, there is nothing special about homo sapiens having to learn to use his brain. You now agree. Second was the idea that the soul/self starts “from zero to learn every function of self/soul/consciousness/brain activity”. I may have misunderstood this, but if all you meant was that a newborn baby knows nothing about life outside the womb, I shan’t argue. And yes indeed, they are born with different genomes, which a materialist will tell you explains their different characters/selves and hence their different responses to whatever early life throws at them. But if they have a dualist soul, according to your beliefs (most of the time), it is the soul that has to learn to use the brain, not the other way round. The twins did not start at zero, because the way in which they used their brain right from the first “WAH!” was dictated by their already existing (materialist) genome or (dualist) soul. The only zero was their knowledge of life outside the womb.
DAVID: Please see my entry from Cosmos today. It covers all of this.
dhw: Please see my reply. The experiment is with six-month old and not new born babies and tells us that babies learn in bursts, which vary from one individual to another (confirming my observations of my twin grandsons from birth). It does not tell us that newborn babies start from zero, or that the brain learns to use the soul, and it does not even discuss what dictates the individuality of the responses.
Despite your comments, the newborn is on autmatic pilot at birth. The cortex is very underdeveloped and only finishes its developmentc at +/- 25 years 0f age. From birth:
http://www.urbanchildinstitute.org/why-0-3/baby-and-brain
"Between conception and age three, a child’s brain undergoes an impressive amount of change. At birth, it already has about all of the neurons it will ever have. It doubles in size in the first year, and by age three it has reached 80 percent of its adult volume.
"Even more importantly, synapses are formed at a faster rate during these years than at any other time. In fact, the brain creates many more of them than it needs: at age two or three, the brain has up to twice as many synapses as it will have in adulthood. These surplus connections are gradually eliminated throughout childhood and adolescence, a process sometimes referred to as blooming and pruning.
***
"The early stages of development are strongly affected by genetic factors; for example, genes direct newly formed neurons to their correct locations in the brain and play a role in how they interact. However, although they arrange the basic wiring of the brain, genes do not design the brain completely.
"Instead, genes allow the brain to fine-tune itself according to the input it receives from the environment. A child’s senses report to the brain about her environment and experiences, and this input stimulates neural activity. Speech sounds, for example, stimulate activity in language-related brain regions. If the amount of input increases (if more speech is heard) synapses between neurons in that area will be activated more often.
"Repeated use strengthens a synapse. Synapses that are rarely used remain weak and are more likely to be eliminated in the pruning process. Synapse strength contributes to the connectivity and efficiency of the networks that support learning, memory, and other cognitive abilities. Therefore, a child’s experiences not only determine what information enters her brain, but also influence how her brain processes information.
***
"The early weeks of the third trimester are a transitional period during which the cerebral cortex begins to assume many duties formerly carried out by the more primitive brainstem. For example, reflexes such as fetal breathing and responses to external stimuli become more regular. The cerebral cortex also supports early learning which develops around this time.
***
"At birth, a baby knows her mother’s voice and may be able to recognize the sounds of stories her mother read to her while she was still in the womb.
"The brain continues to develop at an amazing rate throughout the first year. The cerebellum triples in size, which appears to be related to the rapid development of motor skills that occurs during this period. As the visual areas of the cortex grow, the infant’s initially dim and limited sight develops into full binocular vision.
"At about three months, an infant’s power of recognition improves dramatically; this coincides with significant growth in the hippocampus, the limbic structure related to recognition memory. Language circuits in the frontal and temporal lobes become consolidated in the first year, influenced strongly by the language an infant hears."
Comment: The newborn has to learn to use what it is given. It's self is a blank slate as it starts out in life.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Sunday, January 21, 2018, 14:01 (2498 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Please see my entry from Cosmos today. It covers all of this.
dhw: Please see my reply. The experiment is with six-month old and not new born babies and tells us that babies learn in bursts, which vary from one individual to another (confirming my observations of my twin grandsons from birth). It does not tell us that newborn babies start from zero, or that the brain learns to use the soul, and it does not even discuss what dictates the individuality of the responses.
DAVID: Despite your comments, the newborn is on autmatic pilot at birth. The cortex is very underdeveloped and only finishes its developmentc at +/- 25 years 0f age. From birth:
http://www.urbanchildinstitute.org/why-0-3/baby-and-brain
I shan’t reproduce the whole article, as there is nothing that I would disagree with in principle. Two quotes I’d like to comment on, though:
"At birth, a baby knows her mother’s voice and may be able to recognize the sounds of stories her mother read to her while she was still in the womb.”
There are different theories about how much information a baby absorbs while still in the womb, but it is widely recognized that as well as positive information (the voice, music, smell) there is negative input – e.g. stress: if it can hear soothing sounds, it can also hear disturbing sounds – which will affect the baby even before it is born. Both contradict your claim that the newborn self starts from zero, but both need to be linked to the second quote:
“Therefore, a child’s experiences not only determine what information enters her brain, but also influence how her brain processes information.”
The article makes no reference to your dualistic concept of a “soul”, or even the mind, or the murky realm of the subconscious mind, which we ourselves have not yet ventured into. The focus (understandably) is entirely on the brain. And indeed the brain may well be the source of the self (materialism), but you prefer to forget your own dualism when it suits you to do so (as when you tell us the brain is the source of ideas, mental activity is biochemical, and as below:)
DAVID’S comment: The newborn has to learn to use what it is given. It's self is a blank slate as it starts out in life.
Yes to your first comment, which applies to babies, teenagers, and even octogenarians (when confronted by information/experiences that are new to us). Your second comment is a non sequitur, though nobody knows exactly how much of the new born’s “self” is already present. You continue to ignore the ever contentious issue of how much is nature and how much is nurture. Nature is what decides how even a baby’s self will react to nurture. It may be material, as in this article, or immaterial, as in the dualism you espouse, but the claim that the newborn self is a blank slate receives no support whatsoever from any of the articles you have quoted.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Sunday, January 21, 2018, 15:34 (2498 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Despite your comments, the newborn is on autmatic pilot at birth. The cortex is very underdeveloped and only finishes its developmentc at +/- 25 years 0f age. From birth:
http://www.urbanchildinstitute.org/why-0-3/baby-and-braindhw: I shan’t reproduce the whole article, as there is nothing that I would disagree with in principle. Two quotes I’d like to comment on, though:
"At birth, a baby knows her mother’s voice and may be able to recognize the sounds of stories her mother read to her while she was still in the womb.”
There are different theories about how much information a baby absorbs while still in the womb, but it is widely recognized that as well as positive information (the voice, music, smell) there is negative input – e.g. stress: if it can hear soothing sounds, it can also hear disturbing sounds – which will affect the baby even before it is born. Both contradict your claim that the newborn self starts from zero, but both need to be linked to the second quote:
When a baby is born it does not recognize it is separate from the world around it. It does receive stimuli such as its Mother's voice. The recognition of her voice is imprinted, but the newborn has no understanding of what that reception means. A newborn is not aware it is aware.
dhw: “Therefore, a child’s experiences not only determine what information enters her brain, but also influence how her brain processes information.”
This quote is not about the newborn! But is absolutely true later in the baby's life. Please sort out the immediate newborn from what happens as time passes.
DAVID’S comment: The newborn has to learn to use what it is given. It's self is a blank slate as it starts out in life.dhw: Yes to your first comment, which applies to babies, teenagers, and even octogenarians (when confronted by information/experiences that are new to us). Your second comment is a non sequitur, though nobody knows exactly how much of the new born’s “self” is already present. You continue to ignore the ever contentious issue of how much is nature and how much is nurture. Nature is what decides how even a baby’s self will react to nurture. It may be material, as in this article, or immaterial, as in the dualism you espouse, but the claim that the newborn self is a blank slate receives no support whatsoever from any of the articles you have quoted.
You have misread the articles as they relate to my view about the instantly newborn baby.He has received stimuli , nothing more. He does not understand how to respond. His automatic/autonomic functions work or he dies.
Unfair criticism: My view is clearly stated through nine years of time here. A personality is 40% genetics, 40% family nurture, and 20% developed by the individual and his/her experiences.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Monday, January 22, 2018, 14:27 (2497 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: …two quotes I’d like to comment on:
QUOTE: "At birth, a baby knows her mother’s voice and may be able to recognize the sounds of stories her mother read to her while she was still in the womb.”
There are different theories about how much information a baby absorbs while still in the womb, but it is widely recognized that as well as positive information (the voice, music, smell) there is negative input – e.g. stress: if it can hear soothing sounds, it can also hear disturbing sounds – which will affect the baby even before it is born. Both contradict your claim that the newborn self starts from zero, but both need to be linked to the second quote:
DAVID: When a baby is born it does not recognize it is separate from the world around it. It does receive stimuli such as its Mother's voice. The recognition of her voice is imprinted, but the newborn has no understanding of what that reception means. A newborn is not aware it is aware.
Of course it isn’t. In all our discussions, we have to distinguish between consciousness and self-consciousness. But not being self-aware does not mean you start out from zero! (See below)
QUOTE: “Therefore, a child’s experiences not only determine what information enters her brain, but also influence how her brain processes information.”
DAVID: This quote is not about the newborn! But is absolutely true later in the baby's life. Please sort out the immediate newborn from what happens as time passes.
You have left out the reason why I quoted it! Even the mind of the newborn will be affected by experiences both inside and outside the womb. The researchers focus on the brain as the self (only the brain processes information), but the brain is not the only constituent of the self, even in a newborn. According to dualists like yourself, the mind is separate from the body. That is the point I have tried to make below:
DAVID’S comment: The newborn has to learn to use what it is given. It's self is a blank slate as it starts out in life.
dhw: Yes to your first comment, which applies to babies, teenagers, and even octogenarians (when confronted by information/experiences that are new to us). Your second comment is a non sequitur, though nobody knows exactly how much of the new born’s “self” is already present. You continue to ignore the ever contentious issue of how much is nature and how much is nurture. Nature is what decides how even a baby’s self will react to nurture. It may be material, as in this article, or immaterial, as in the dualism you espouse, but the claim that the newborn self is a blank slate receives no support whatsoever from any of the articles you have quoted.
DAVID: You have misread the articles as they relate to my view about the instantly newborn baby.He has received stimuli , nothing more. He does not understand how to respond. His automatic/autonomic functions work or he dies.
I don't know why you've suddenly inserted "instantly". The second it emerges from the womb and says "WAH!", I don't suppose it has much chance to show its individuality.That does not mean it starts from zero.
DAVID: Unfair criticism: My view is clearly stated through nine years of time here. A personality is 40% genetics, 40% family nurture, and 20% developed by the individual and his/her experiences.
The personality is the “self”. If you believe that 40% of the personality/self is genetics, then how can you argue that the newborn self is a blank slate?
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Monday, January 22, 2018, 17:45 (2497 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID’S comment: The newborn has to learn to use what it is given. It's self is a blank slate as it starts out in life.dhw: Yes to your first comment, which applies to babies, teenagers, and even octogenarians (when confronted by information/experiences that are new to us). Your second comment is a non sequitur, though nobody knows exactly how much of the new born’s “self” is already present. You continue to ignore the ever contentious issue of how much is nature and how much is nurture. Nature is what decides how even a baby’s self will react to nurture. It may be material, as in this article, or immaterial, as in the dualism you espouse, but the claim that the newborn self is a blank slate receives no support whatsoever from any of the articles you have quoted.
DAVID: You have misread the articles as they relate to my view about the instantly newborn baby.He has received stimuli , nothing more. He does not understand how to respond. His automatic/autonomic functions work or he dies.
dhw: I don't know why you've suddenly inserted "instantly". The second it emerges from the womb and says "WAH!", I don't suppose it has much chance to show its individuality.That does not mean it starts from zero.
Why not instantly? It starts independent life and learning on emerging from the vagina. What it gets before is unreasoned sensory input.
DAVID: Unfair criticism: My view is clearly stated through nine years of time here. A personality is 40% genetics, 40% family nurture, and 20% developed by the individual and his/her experiences.dhw: The personality is the “self”. If you believe that 40% of the personality/self is genetics, then how can you argue that the newborn self is a blank slate?
Because what I have described as soures of personaliy all have to be expressed or developed by the blank slate as life progresses. The 40/40/20% are all active influences as personality develops over time. A personality develops from zero in all of us.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study: Piaget
by David Turell , Monday, January 22, 2018, 21:12 (2497 days ago) @ David Turell
It's time I introduce Jean Piaget who was an initiator of child mental development studies in a very structured way:
https://www.simplypsychology.org/piaget.html
The goal of the theory is to explain the mechanisms and processes by which the infant, and then the child, develops into an individual who can reason and think using hypotheses.
To Piaget, cognitive development was a progressive reorganization of mental processes as a result of biological maturation and environmental experience. Children construct an understanding of the world around them, then experience discrepancies between what they already know and what they discover in their environment.
Piaget proposed four stages of cognitive development which reflect the increasing sophistication of children's thought:
1. Sensorimotor stage (birth to age 2)
2. Pre-operational stage (from age 2 to age 7)
3. Concrete operational stage (from age 7 to age 11)
4. Formal operational stage (age 11+ - adolescence and adulthood).
Sensorimotor Stage (Birth-2 yrs)
The main achievement during this stage is object permanence - knowing that an object still exists, even if it is hidden.
It requires the ability to form a mental representation (i.e., a schema) of the object.
Preoperational Stage (2-7 years)
During this stage, young children can think about things symbolically. This is the ability to make one thing - a word or an object - stand for something other than itself.
Thinking is still egocentric, and the infant has difficulty taking the viewpoint of others.
Concrete Operational Stage (7-11 years)
Piaget considered the concrete stage a major turning point in the child's cognitive development because it marks the beginning of logical or operational thought.
This means the child can work things out internally in their head (rather than physically try things out in the real world).
Children can conserve number (age 6), mass (age 7), and weight (age 9). Conservation is the understanding that something stays the same in quantity even though its appearance changes.
Formal Operational Stage (11 years and over)
The formal operational stage begins at approximately age eleven and lasts into adulthood. During this time, people develop the ability to think about abstract concepts, and logically test hypotheses.
Comment: Thinking develops from zero. We had some of this in med school
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Tuesday, January 23, 2018, 14:20 (2496 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Unfair criticism: My view is clearly stated through nine years of time here. A personality is 40% genetics, 40% family nurture, and 20% developed by the individual and his/her experiences.
dhw: The personality is the “self”. If you believe that 40% of the personality/self is genetics, then how can you argue that the newborn self is a blank slate?
DAVID: Because what I have described as soures of personaliy all have to be expressed or developed by the blank slate as life progresses. The 40/40/20% are all active influences as personality develops over time. A personality develops from zero in all of us.
What is this “blank slate”? If a personality is 40% genetics, then right from the start your baby has 40% of its personality. 40% is not zero. But the personality will develop and change through interaction between its given elements (the original 40% according to you) and nurture plus experience. That goes on all through life. As for the “instantly” newborn baby itself, of course it can’t express every aspect of its personality the moment it says “Wah!” That doesn’t mean it’s born with zero personality.
DAVID: It's time I introduce Jean Piaget who was an initiator of child mental development studies in a very structured way:
https://www.simplypsychology.org/piaget.html
The goal of the theory is to explain the mechanisms and processes by which the infant, and then the child, develops into an individual who can reason and think using hypotheses.
DAVID’s comment: Thinking develops from zero. We had some of this in med school.
Thank you for this informative article. You wrote that a newborn baby’s “self is a blank slate as it starts out in life”. If by this you only meant that a newborn baby is not aware of itself and is not capable of reasoning, analysing, conceptualizing, philosophizing etc. (different types of thinking), I doubt if many people would disagree. But if you meant that all newborn babies are born with identical non-personalities, the Piaget article offers no support, and I would disagree, as would my daughter-in-law. Here is one website for you:
Children & Blank Slate Evolution - psychcentral.com
https://psychcentral.com/blog/children-blank-slate-evolution
"The “blank slate” view of human development was first documented in the late 17th and early 18th centuries, and is generally credited to Locke and Rousseau. The idea is that a child is born completely free of any predisposition or vulnerabilities, and that everything the child would become was due to the effects of the environment. With advances in biotechnology, neuroscience, evolutionary theory, and psychology, this view has all but been completely discredited today.
Most people are now thought to have significant “pre-programming” from genes that have some influence on almost every want, trait, feeling, thought, and action."
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Tuesday, January 23, 2018, 15:42 (2496 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Because what I have described as soures of personaliy all have to be expressed or developed by the blank slate as life progresses. The 40/40/20% are all active influences as personality develops over time. A personality develops from zero in all of us.
dhw: What is this “blank slate”? If a personality is 40% genetics, then right from the start your baby has 40% of its personality. 40% is not zero. But the personality will develop and change through interaction between its given elements (the original 40% according to you) and nurture plus experience. That goes on all through life. As for the “instantly” newborn baby itself, of course it can’t express every aspect of its personality the moment it says “Wah!” That doesn’t mean it’s born with zero personality.
A plan for a Volkswagen is not a car! The genetics will help guide a nonexistent personality to a personality during the time that follows birth. Blank personality slate at birth. Only sensory abilities and instincts at birth (suck and grasp)
DAVID: It's time I introduce Jean Piaget who was an initiator of child mental development studies in a very structured way:
https://www.simplypsychology.org/piaget.html
The goal of the theory is to explain the mechanisms and processes by which the infant, and then the child, develops into an individual who can reason and think using hypotheses.DAVID’s comment: Thinking develops from zero. We had some of this in med school.
dhw: Thank you for this informative article. You wrote that a newborn baby’s “self is a blank slate as it starts out in life”. If by this you only meant that a newborn baby is not aware of itself and is not capable of reasoning, analysing, conceptualizing, philosophizing etc. (different types of thinking), I doubt if many people would disagree. But if you meant that all newborn babies are born with identical non-personalities, the Piaget article offers no support, and I would disagree, as would my daughter-in-law. Here is one website for you:
I never meant newborns were not different. Of course, every newborn comes with different potentialities, starting from a blank slate.
dhw: Children & Blank Slate Evolution - psychcentral.com
https://psychcentral.com/blog/children-blank-slate-evolution"The “blank slate” view of human development was first documented in the late 17th and early 18th centuries, and is generally credited to Locke and Rousseau. The idea is that a child is born completely free of any predisposition or vulnerabilities, and that everything the child would become was due to the effects of the environment. With advances in biotechnology, neuroscience, evolutionary theory, and psychology, this view has all but been completely discredited today.
Most people are now thought to have significant “pre-programming” from genes that have some influence on almost every want, trait, feeling, thought, and action." [/i]
Our problem is your interpretation of blank slate differed from mine. We actually agree.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Wednesday, January 24, 2018, 14:43 (2495 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID 21 January: A personality is 40% genetics, 40% family nurture, and 20% developed by the individual and his/her circumstances.
DAVID 24 January: The genetics will help guide a nonexistent personality to a personality during the time that follows birth. Blank personality slate at birth. Only sensory abilities and instincts at birth (suck and grasp)
If 40% of a personality (genetics) already exists at birth, it makes no sense to say that there is a 100% blank personality at birth. The fact that the instantly newborn has no chance to express its existing personality at the moment when it emerges from the womb, shouts “WAH!” and grasps and sucks does not mean that it has no personality.
dhw: You wrote that a newborn baby’s “self is a blank slate as it starts out in life”. If by this you only meant that a newborn baby is not aware of itself and is not capable of reasoning, analysing, conceptualizing, philosophizing etc. (different types of thinking), I doubt if many people would disagree. But if you meant that all newborn babies are born with identical non-personalities, the Piaget article offers no support, and I would disagree, as would my daughter-in-law. Here is one website for you:
DAVID: I never meant newborns were not different. Of course, every newborn comes with different potentialities, starting from a blank slate.
Why have you suddenly switched from personality to potential? What IS this blank slate of yours? 40% of the personality is already present according to you, so you cannot talk of the personality being a blank slate.
dhw: Children & Blank Slate Evolution - psychcentral.com
https://psychcentral.com/blog/children-blank-slate-evolution
QUOTE: "The “blank slate” view of human development was first documented in the late 17th and early 18th centuries, and is generally credited to Locke and Rousseau. The idea is that a child is born completely free of any predisposition or vulnerabilities, and that everything the child would become was due to the effects of the environment. With advances in biotechnology, neuroscience, evolutionary theory, and psychology, this view has all but been completely discredited today.
Most people are now thought to have significant “pre-programming” from genes that have some influence on almost every want, trait, feeling, thought, and action."
DAVID: Our problem is your interpretation of blank slate differed from mine. We actually agree.
I don’t know what your interpretation is. You’ve only told us that the personality is a blank slate but 40% of the personality is already present.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Wednesday, January 24, 2018, 15:13 (2495 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Our problem is your interpretation of blank slate differed from mine. We actually agree.dhw: I don’t know what your interpretation is. You’ve only told us that the personality is a blank slate but 40% of the personality is already present.
Simple: at birth the genetics are a potential, nurture is a potential and experience is yet to come. All contribute to the development of personality as life continues. Blank slate at birth. You are arguing that all these potentials, not yet existing in practice mean the personality is already formed! I'm looking at this as a process, starting from zero personality to fully formed personality at age 25.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Friday, January 26, 2018, 13:27 (2493 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Our problem is your interpretation of blank slate differed from mine. We actually agree.
dhw: I don’t know what your interpretation is. You’ve only told us that the personality is a blank slate but 40% of the personality is already present.
DAVID: Simple: at birth the genetics are a potential, nurture is a potential and experience is yet to come. All contribute to the development of personality as life continues. Blank slate at birth. You are arguing that all these potentials, not yet existing in practice mean the personality is already formed! I'm looking at this as a process, starting from zero personality to fully formed personality at age 25.
Arguing that some characteristics are inborn is a million miles away from arguing that the character is already formed! In my view, a personality is actually never fully formed, since our full potential could only be revealed by every imaginable experience, and some experiences (material or immaterial) could well cause a complete change of personality. So I’m arguing that the process starts with certain in-built characteristics, and then nurture (for a limited period) and experience (unlimited) provide an on-going and never-ending process of development.
According to the article I quoted, “the idea that a child is born completely free of any predisposition” (i.e. your blank slate theory) “…has all but been completely discredited.” And it refers to genetics as “preprogramming”. You are, of course, free to stick to a concept that has all but been completely discredited, but I’m afraid I cannot see any sense in your argument that although 40% of personality (your figure) is genetic, the baby’s genes do not yet exist “in practice” and are only a blank slate potential. The inborn traits will only be revealed in time (very short in some cases), but that does not mean they are not already there.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Friday, January 26, 2018, 14:32 (2493 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Simple: at birth the genetics are a potential, nurture is a potential and experience is yet to come. All contribute to the development of personality as life continues. Blank slate at birth. You are arguing that all these potentials, not yet existing in practice mean the personality is already formed! I'm looking at this as a process, starting from zero personality to fully formed personality at age 25.dhw: Arguing that some characteristics are inborn is a million miles away from arguing that the character is already formed! In my view, a personality is actually never fully formed, since our full potential could only be revealed by every imaginable experience, and some experiences (material or immaterial) could well cause a complete change of personality. So I’m arguing that the process starts with certain in-built characteristics, and then nurture (for a limited period) and experience (unlimited) provide an on-going and never-ending process of development.
A personality is fully formed by 25, but I agree with you it can modify over the years with experience and new events.
dhw: According to the article I quoted, “the idea that a child is born completely free of any predisposition” (i.e. your blank slate theory) “…has all but been completely discredited.” And it refers to genetics as “preprogramming”. You are, of course, free to stick to a concept that has all but been completely discredited, but I’m afraid I cannot see any sense in your argument that although 40% of personality (your figure) is genetic, the baby’s genes do not yet exist “in practice” and are only a blank slate potential. The inborn traits will only be revealed in time (very short in some cases), but that does not mean they are not already there.
We are arguing over potentiality, and we actually agree. I've said the programming in the genes exists, but has to be actuated from a zero start. The newborn starts at zero, obviously.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Saturday, January 27, 2018, 13:19 (2492 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: A personality is fully formed by 25, but I agree with you it can modify over the years with experience and new events.
DAVID: We are arguing over potentiality, and we actually agree. I've said the programming in the genes exists, but has to be actuated from a zero start. The newborn starts at zero, obviously.
This discussion has turned into a word game. I have no idea how a personality can ever be “fully formed” when it is capable of change all the way through to the moment of death. The genetic inborn characteristics (which you say comprise 40% of the personality) are already present even before the baby actually comes out and says “WAH!” Its personality is therefore not a blank slate, but the baby has no means of expressing its individual self, and we have no means of knowing anything about its personality, until it is born. That is the only zero.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Saturday, January 27, 2018, 14:51 (2492 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: A personality is fully formed by 25, but I agree with you it can modify over the years with experience and new events.
DAVID: We are arguing over potentiality, and we actually agree. I've said the programming in the genes exists, but has to be actuated from a zero start. The newborn starts at zero, obviously.
dhw: This discussion has turned into a word game. I have no idea how a personality can ever be “fully formed” when it is capable of change all the way through to the moment of death.
The basic underlying structure of a personality is fully formed by age 25 when the prefrontal cortex is fully developed. Ego defense mechanisms are in place. Patterns like Type A behavior appear or as in transactional analysis, are you an adult, parent or a child in your behavior? Of course your personality naturally modifies its expressions over a lifetime, and with counselling may cause a major change in underlying structure.
dhw: The genetic inborn characteristics (which you say comprise 40% of the personality) are already present even before the baby actually comes out and says “WAH!” Its personality is therefore not a blank slate, but the baby has no means of expressing its individual self, and we have no means of knowing anything about its personality, until it is born. That is the only zero.
Again you are discussing underlying potentials. Genetics and nurture modify each other as life progresses from birth, the zero/ blank point. We agree.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Saturday, January 27, 2018, 18:31 (2492 days ago) @ David Turell
Transactional analysis was a background of a method I used in counselling. If you don't know it:
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Sunday, January 28, 2018, 13:15 (2491 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: This discussion has turned into a word game. I have no idea how a personality can ever be “fully formed” when it is capable of change all the way through to the moment of death.
DAVID: The basic underlying structure of a personality is fully formed by age 25 when the prefrontal cortex is fully developed. Ego defense mechanisms are in place. Patterns like Type A behavior appear or as in transactional analysis, are you an adult, parent or a child in your behavior? Of course your personality naturally modifies its expressions over a lifetime, and with counselling may cause a major change in underlying structure.
In my view nobody can ever say a personality is fully formed at any age, but at least you’ve now changed that to “the basic underlying structure”. This may well be formed a great deal earlier ("BY" 25 allows for that), depending on just how much of the personality is determined by the genes, nurture and experience, which nobody knows. Of course major changes are not limited to counselling, but can be caused at any time by accidents, diseases or traumatic experiences.
DAVID: Transactional analysis was a background of a method I used in counselling. If you don't know it:
http://www.ericberne.com/transactional-analysis/
Thank you. I started the article, but it’s simply too long for me to read now! I looked up a definition: "a system of popular psychology based on the idea that one's behaviour and social relationships reflect an interchange between parental (critical and nurturing), adult (rational), and childlike (intuitive and dependent) aspects of personality established early in life."
That makes perfect sense to me, and I didn’t know your medical activities included counselling, which is most impressive. So much human misery is caused by mental health issues, and if this approach yields positive results, one can only applaud it and you.
dhw: The genetic inborn characteristics (which you say comprise 40% of the personality) are already present even before the baby actually comes out and says “WAH!” Its personality is therefore not a blank slate, but the baby has no means of expressing its individual self, and we have no means of knowing anything about its personality, until it is born. That is the only zero.
DAVID: Again you are discussing underlying potentials. Genetics and nurture modify each other as life progresses from birth, the zero/ blank point. We agree.
We agree that genetics, nurture and experience modify each other as life progresses from birth, but genes are already present even before birth. That is the reason why the article I quoted expressly dismisses the “blank slate” hypothesis on the grounds that “most people are now thought to have significant ‘preprogramming’ from genes that have some influence on almost every want, trait, feeling, thought, and action.” Since you reckon that genes constitute 40% of a personality, you can hardly disagree. Yes, modification begins at birth. No, the personality is not a blank slate at birth. If it was, there would be nothing to modify.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Sunday, January 28, 2018, 15:51 (2491 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Again you are discussing underlying potentials. Genetics and nurture modify each other as life progresses from birth, the zero/ blank point. We agree.dhw: We agree that genetics, nurture and experience modify each other as life progresses from birth, but genes are already present even before birth. That is the reason why the article I quoted expressly dismisses the “blank slate” hypothesis on the grounds that “most people are now thought to have significant ‘preprogramming’ from genes that have some influence on almost every want, trait, feeling, thought, and action.” Since you reckon that genes constitute 40% of a personality, you can hardly disagree. Yes, modification begins at birth. No, the personality is not a blank slate at birth. If it was, there would be nothing to modify.
My view: We can end this discussion on this point: a person expresses his personality from a zero developmental point at birth. There is a background of source material that is preprogrammed, that with nurture, and experience in living shapes the final personality structure that carries him through life. That structure can be modified by onesself (rare) or by counselling (more common).
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Monday, January 29, 2018, 13:28 (2490 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: We agree that genetics, nurture and experience modify each other as life progresses from birth, but genes are already present even before birth. That is the reason why the article I quoted expressly dismisses the “blank slate” hypothesis on the grounds that “most people are now thought to have significant ‘preprogramming’ from genes that have some influence on almost every want, trait, feeling, thought, and action.” Since you reckon that genes constitute 40% of a personality, you can hardly disagree. Yes, modification begins at birth. No, the personality is not a blank slate at birth. If it was, there would be nothing to modify.
DAVID: My view: We can end this discussion on this point: a person expresses his personality from a zero developmental point at birth. There is a background of source material that is preprogrammed, that with nurture, and experience in living shapes the final personality structure that carries him through life. That structure can be modified by onesself (rare) or by counselling (more common).
Very happy with most of this. The blank slate personality has finally disappeared (“background of source material that is preprogrammed”), I would leave out “final” (if a structure can be modified, it is not final), and I would add that the structure can be modified by accident, disease and experience (especially traumatic). Pax?
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Monday, January 29, 2018, 15:18 (2490 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: We agree that genetics, nurture and experience modify each other as life progresses from birth, but genes are already present even before birth. That is the reason why the article I quoted expressly dismisses the “blank slate” hypothesis on the grounds that “most people are now thought to have significant ‘preprogramming’ from genes that have some influence on almost every want, trait, feeling, thought, and action.” Since you reckon that genes constitute 40% of a personality, you can hardly disagree. Yes, modification begins at birth. No, the personality is not a blank slate at birth. If it was, there would be nothing to modify.
DAVID: My view: We can end this discussion on this point: a person expresses his personality from a zero developmental point at birth. There is a background of source material that is preprogrammed, that with nurture, and experience in living shapes the final personality structure that carries him through life. That structure can be modified by onesself (rare) or by counselling (more common).
dhw: Very happy with most of this. The blank slate personality has finally disappeared (“background of source material that is preprogrammed”), I would leave out “final” (if a structure can be modified, it is not final), and I would add that the structure can be modified by accident, disease and experience (especially traumatic). Pax?
From my experience, the final structure generally can only have very small modifications.Pax.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 00:16 (2482 days ago) @ David Turell
New born babies have very incomplete fiber pathways and only a small number of neurons as compared to adults. As a result they show no emotional reactions other than crying. This essay looks at it for answers:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/why-dont-babies-smile-from-birth/?utm...
"When my son was born a few months ago, he quickly established himself as the tyrant of our household, one that ruled with a singular phonetic ultimatum (“Oooo—whaaah”), tiny iron fists clutched in fury, and a face that roiled like the churning sea. His placid silence instantly devolved to wrath, wrath (once appeased) acquiesced to staring, staring occasionally melted into surprise, an overabundance of which puddled into an outstretched, fearful startle. In his tough, all-work-no-play gig, he presided for weeks without smiling, cooing, giggling or any apparent sign of happiness.
"During these overtures, I often wondered why he never cracked a smile.
***
"In the late 19th century Sigmund Freud observed that his patients were unable to recall events from early childhood, a phenomenon he called infantile amnesia.
***
"The report, published in Science, suggested that memory formation requires a stable network of interconnected neurons, one that, for some types of memories, resides within the brain’s hippocampus. In infants, new neurons are born quite often in a process called neurogenesis. In adults, neurogenesis has slowed and so the overall network structure is more stable.
***
"By slowing neurogenesis in infant mice, she showed that they were more able to remember. It appears that neurogenesis is sufficient to induce infantile amnesia, even in adults!
In order to remember, you need brain neurons to encode and then retrieve memories. In the throes of a neurogenic boom, maybe our little men weren’t happy because they simply couldn’t retrieve happy memories.
***
“'Being happy requires a fair amount of self-referential thinking,
***
"This concept of self-referential thinking, or the ability to reflect on how you’re feeling and your desires, is associated with a network of brain regions called the default mode network. Dustin told me about two studies, both published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, both of which suggest that the default mode network isn’t fully developed at birth.
***
"that the brain’s default mode network, which is thought to coordinate self-referential thoughts, isn’t fully present at birth but comes more and more “online” with time.
***
"they showed that the brain networks responsible for sight, touch, hearing and movement were well-formed at birth—which is corroborated by our observations that our sons could see, feel, hear and wiggle at birth (coordination is another story). They also showed that the default mode network was more-or-less present at birth, but that it was still coalescing, still “learning,” such that the activity within this network became more coordinated the older the infants got.
"It appeared that both studies showed that the brain’s full repertoire of functional networks were roughed-out at birth, but that they became more polished with age.
"Now four months old now, my son has begun to smile and giggle. So it’s more clear when things are going well and when we’re in DEFCON 1. As to the question of whether he’s happy, I remain unsure. Even though he looks contemplatively at his hands (when they’re not in his mouth), I’m unsure this counts as self-referential thought."
Comment: the point of this essay is that there is very little going on in the infant's brain at birth, but it does develop rather quickly. Another aspect of the infant starting as a blank slate.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 13:52 (2481 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: New born babies have very incomplete fiber pathways and only a small number of neurons as compared to adults. As a result they show no emotional reactions other than crying. This essay looks at it for answers:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/why-dont-babies-smile-from-birth/?utm...
DAVID’s comment: the point of this essay is that there is very little going on in the infant's brain at birth, but it does develop rather quickly. Another aspect of the infant starting as a blank slate.
There is no blank slate if, according to you, 40% of the personality is contained in the genes. Even crying proves there is no blank slate. On 29 January, as below, we reached agreement on this, so please don’t start all over again.
DAVID: My view: We can end this discussion on this point: a person expresses his personality from a zero developmental point at birth. There is a background of source material that is preprogrammed, that with nurture, and experience in living shapes the final personality structure that carries him through life. That structure can be modified by onesself (rare) or by counselling (more common).
dhw: Very happy with most of this. The blank slate personality has finally disappeared (“background of source material that is preprogrammed”), I would leave out “final” (if a structure can be modified, it is not final), and I would add that the structure can be modified by accident, disease and experience (especially traumatic). Pax?
DAVID: From my experience, the final structure generally can only have very small modifications. Pax.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 15:47 (2481 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: New born babies have very incomplete fiber pathways and only a small number of neurons as compared to adults. As a result they show no emotional reactions other than crying. This essay looks at it for answers:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/why-dont-babies-smile-from-birth/?utm...DAVID’s comment: the point of this essay is that there is very little going on in the infant's brain at birth, but it does develop rather quickly. Another aspect of the infant starting as a blank slate.
dhw: There is no blank slate if, according to you, 40% of the personality is contained in the genes. Even crying proves there is no blank slate. On 29 January, as below, we reached agreement on this, so please don’t start all over again.
Just thought it wa an interesting exposition of the newborn's brain.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by David Turell , Thursday, February 08, 2018, 19:34 (2480 days ago) @ David Turell
Work in mouse cortex demonstrates many genetic changes as the brain modifies to new stimuli:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-02-single-cell-analysis-reveals-diverse-landscape.html
"Using novel technologies developed at HMS, the team looked at how a single sensory experience affects gene expression in the brain by analyzing more than 114,000 individual cells in the mouse visual cortex before and after exposure to light.
"Their findings revealed a dramatic and diverse landscape of gene expression changes across all cell types, involving 611 different genes, many linked to neural connectivity and the brain's ability to rewire itself to learn and adapt.
"The results offer insights into how bursts of neuronal activity that last only milliseconds trigger lasting changes in the brain, and open new fields of exploration for efforts to understand how the brain works.
"'What we found is, in a sense, amazing. In response to visual stimulation, virtually every cell in the visual cortex is responding in a different way," said co-senior author Michael Greenberg, the Nathan Marsh Pusey Professor of Neurobiology and chair of the Department of Neurobiology at HMS.
***
"The team found significant changes in gene expression after light exposure in all cell types in the visual cortex—both neurons and, unexpectedly, nonneuronal cells such as astrocytes, macrophages and muscle cells that line blood vessels in the brain.
Roughly 50 to 70 percent of excitatory neurons, for example, exhibited changes regardless of their location or function. Remarkably, the authors said, a large proportion of non-neuronal cells—almost half of all astrocytes, for example—also exhibited changes.
"The team identified thousands of genes with altered expression patterns after light exposure, and 611 genes that had at least two-fold increases or decreases.
"Many of these genes have been previously linked to structural remodeling in the brain, suggesting that virtually the entire visual cortex, including the vasculature and muscle cell types, may undergo genetically controlled rewiring in response to a sensory experience.
"There has been some controversy among neuroscientists over whether gene expression could functionally control plasticity or connectivity between neurons.
"'I think our study strongly suggests that this is the case, and that each cell has a unique genetic program that's tailored to the function of a given cell within a neural circuit," Greenberg said.
***
"'Experience and environmental stimuli appear to almost constantly affect gene expression and function throughout the brain. This may help us to understand how processes such as learning and memory formation, which require long-term changes in the brain, arise from the short bursts of electrical activity through which neurons signal to each other," Greenberg said.
"One especially interesting area of inquiry, according to Greenberg, includes the regulatory elements that control the expression of genes in response to sensory experience. In a paper published earlier this year in Molecular Cell, he and his team explored the activity of the FOS/JUN protein complex, which is expressed across many different cell types in the brain but appears to regulate unique programs in each different cell type."
Comment: This demonstrated plasticity shows how intimately the brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand. The brain and the s/s/c are very intimately connected, even if one is material and one is immaterial. Yet from the NDE reports the s/s/c can exist and record experiences while not in the presence of a functional brain. Clearly dualism.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by dhw, Friday, February 09, 2018, 13:13 (2479 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Work in mouse cortex demonstrates many genetic changes as the brain modifies to new stimuli:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-02-single-cell-analysis-reveals-diverse-landscape.html
DAVID’s comment: This demonstrated plasticity shows how intimately the brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand. The brain and the s/s/c are very intimately connected, even if one is material and one is immaterial. Yet from the NDE reports the s/s/c can exist and record experiences while not in the presence of a functional brain. Clearly dualism.
Yes indeed, NDEs suggest dualism. And yes indeed, the material plastic brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand. The task is at hand, and then the brain implements the concept (task) by modifying itself. It does not modify itself in advance of the task being at hand.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by David Turell , Friday, February 09, 2018, 15:08 (2479 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Work in mouse cortex demonstrates many genetic changes as the brain modifies to new stimuli:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-02-single-cell-analysis-reveals-diverse-landscape.html
DAVID’s comment: This demonstrated plasticity shows how intimately the brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand. The brain and the s/s/c are very intimately connected, even if one is material and one is immaterial. Yet from the NDE reports the s/s/c can exist and record experiences while not in the presence of a functional brain. Clearly dualism.
dhw: Yes indeed, NDEs suggest dualism. And yes indeed, the material plastic brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand. The task is at hand, and then the brain implements the concept (task) by modifying itself. It does not modify itself in advance of the task being at hand.
You've left out God enlarging the brain in each advance in the evolution of Homo sapiens.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by dhw, Saturday, February 10, 2018, 13:27 (2478 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID’s comment: This demonstrated plasticity shows how intimately the brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand. The brain and the s/s/c are very intimately connected, even if one is material and one is immaterial. Yet from the NDE reports the s/s/c can exist and record experiences while not in the presence of a functional brain. Clearly dualism.
dhw: Yes indeed, NDEs suggest dualism. And yes indeed, the material plastic brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand. The task is at hand, and then the brain implements the concept (task) by modifying itself. It does not modify itself in advance of the task being at hand.
DAVID: You've left out God enlarging the brain in each advance in the evolution of Homo sapiens.
“The brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand” does not mean that the brain modifies itself before the immaterial task is at hand. It means the immaterial task is already there (at hand) and the brain modifies itself by performing the task. I have left out advance enlargement because what you wrote clearly means that enlargement follows the appearance of the task and does not precede it.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by David Turell , Saturday, February 10, 2018, 15:34 (2478 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID’s comment: This demonstrated plasticity shows how intimately the brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand. The brain and the s/s/c are very intimately connected, even if one is material and one is immaterial. Yet from the NDE reports the s/s/c can exist and record experiences while not in the presence of a functional brain. Clearly dualism.
dhw: Yes indeed, NDEs suggest dualism. And yes indeed, the material plastic brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand. The task is at hand, and then the brain implements the concept (task) by modifying itself. It does not modify itself in advance of the task being at hand.
DAVID: You've left out God enlarging the brain in each advance in the evolution of Homo sapiens.
dhw: “The brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand” does not mean that the brain modifies itself before the immaterial task is at hand. It means the immaterial task is already there (at hand) and the brain modifies itself by performing the task. I have left out advance enlargement because what you wrote clearly means that enlargement follows the appearance of the task and does not precede it.
'Modify' and 'enlarge' are two different things. An existing brain modifies itself. That does not explain a new enlargement of the brain.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by dhw, Sunday, February 11, 2018, 12:58 (2477 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID’s comment: This demonstrated plasticity shows how intimately the brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand. The brain and the s/s/c are very intimately connected, even if one is material and one is immaterial. Yet from the NDE reports the s/s/c can exist and record experiences while not in the presence of a functional brain. Clearly dualism.
dhw: Yes indeed, NDEs suggest dualism. And yes indeed, the material plastic brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand. The task is at hand, and then the brain implements the concept (task) by modifying itself. It does not modify itself in advance of the task being at hand.
DAVID: You've left out God enlarging the brain in each advance in the evolution of Homo sapiens.
dhw: “The brain modifies itself to the immaterial tasks at hand” does not mean that the brain modifies itself before the immaterial task is at hand. It means the immaterial task is already there (at hand) and the brain modifies itself by performing the task. I have left out advance enlargement because what you wrote clearly means that enlargement follows the appearance of the task and does not precede it.
DAVID: 'Modify' and 'enlarge' are two different things. An existing brain modifies itself. That does not explain a new enlargement of the brain.
Language games. “Modify” = “change the structure, character, intent etc.” (Encarta) Are you now saying that your God created a brand new bigger brain from scratch? If not, the change itself simply means adding more cells and connections to those that already exist. Even if you think this is not covered by “modification”, your statement makes it perfectly clear that the brain changes in response to new tasks, not before the new tasks are “at hand”.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by David Turell , Sunday, February 11, 2018, 15:15 (2477 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Are you now saying that your God created a brand new bigger brain from scratch? If not, the change itself simply means adding more cells and connections to those that already exist. Even if you think this is not covered by “modification”, your statement makes it perfectly clear that the brain changes in response to new tasks, not before the new tasks are “at hand”.
In my theory God manages or runs evolution. It does not run itself by chance. A newly enlarged, more complex brain is evolved from a previous smaller less complex brain by God. Implementation results in automatic plasticity changes which may shrink earch stage of brain slightly, as based on current scientific fact.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by dhw, Monday, February 12, 2018, 10:32 (2477 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Are you now saying that your God created a brand new bigger brain from scratch? If not, the change itself simply means adding more cells and connections to those that already exist. Even if you think this is not covered by “modification”, your statement makes it perfectly clear that the brain changes in response to new tasks, not before the new tasks are “at hand”.
DAVID: In my theory God manages or runs evolution. It does not run itself by chance. A newly enlarged, more complex brain is evolved from a previous smaller less complex brain by God. Implementation results in automatic plasticity changes which may shrink earch stage of brain slightly, as based on current scientific fact.
In my theory (theistic version) your God created life and the mechanisms for evolution. It does not run itself by chance but by the God-given intelligence with which organisms cope with or exploit ever changing environments. The latter may be subject to chance, and you can’t make up your own mind whether they are or are not controlled by your God. And yes, yes, yes, implementation RESULTS in changes. It does not precede changes. Current scientific fact tells us that the change resulting from implementation is COMPLEXIFICATION, which I suggest is so efficient that it has also caused shrinkage. This process may also have occurred in pre-sapiens until expansion became necessary (in both hypotheses). There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that any changes take place BEFORE implementation, whereas your theory is that enlargement (which occurs in both hypotheses) did take place before implementation: the exact opposite of your own statement above that implementation RESULTS in changes. (See also “big brain evolution”.)
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by David Turell , Monday, February 12, 2018, 15:02 (2476 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Are you now saying that your God created a brand new bigger brain from scratch? If not, the change itself simply means adding more cells and connections to those that already exist. Even if you think this is not covered by “modification”, your statement makes it perfectly clear that the brain changes in response to new tasks, not before the new tasks are “at hand”.
DAVID: In my theory God manages or runs evolution. It does not run itself by chance. A newly enlarged, more complex brain is evolved from a previous smaller less complex brain by God. Implementation results in automatic plasticity changes which may shrink earch stage of brain slightly, as based on current scientific fact.
dhw: In my theory (theistic version) your God created life and the mechanisms for evolution. It does not run itself by chance but by the God-given intelligence with which organisms cope with or exploit ever changing environments. The latter may be subject to chance, and you can’t make up your own mind whether they are or are not controlled by your God. And yes, yes, yes, implementation RESULTS in changes. It does not precede changes. Current scientific fact tells us that the change resulting from implementation is COMPLEXIFICATION, which I suggest is so efficient that it has also caused shrinkage. This process may also have occurred in pre-sapiens until expansion became necessary (in both hypotheses). There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that any changes take place BEFORE implementation, whereas your theory is that enlargement (which occurs in both hypotheses) did take place before implementation: the exact opposite of your own statement above that implementation RESULTS in changes. (See also “big brain evolution”.)
The part in bold of your stataement is a complete misinterpretation of my view. My point is simple. At each stage in the size of brain as human evolution proceeded, that size had plasticity and could modify with new implementations. It might even shrink slightly as we see in the sapiens level of development.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by dhw, Tuesday, February 13, 2018, 21:14 (2475 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: In my theory God manages or runs evolution. It does not run itself by chance. A newly enlarged, more complex brain is evolved from a previous smaller less complex brain by God. Implementation results in automatic plasticity changes which may shrink earch stage of brain slightly, as based on current scientific fact.
dhw: In my theory (theistic version) your God created life and the mechanisms for evolution. It does not run itself by chance but by the God-given intelligence with which organisms cope with or exploit ever changing environments. The latter may be subject to chance, and you can’t make up your own mind whether they are or are not controlled by your God. And yes, yes, yes, implementation RESULTS in changes. It does not precede changes. Current scientific fact tells us that the change resulting from implementation is COMPLEXIFICATION, which I suggest is so efficient that it has also caused shrinkage. This process may also have occurred in pre-sapiens until expansion became necessary (in both hypotheses). There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that any changes take place BEFORE implementation, whereas your theory is that enlargement (which occurs in both hypotheses) did take place before implementation: the exact opposite of your own statement above that implementation RESULTS in changes. (See also “big brain evolution”.)
DAVID: The part in bold of your statement is a complete misinterpretation of my view. My point is simple. At each stage in the size of brain as human evolution proceeded, that size had plasticity and could modify with new implementations. It might even shrink slightly as we see in the sapiens level of development.
Until now, I have always understood your hypothesis to be that your God enlarged the brains of pre-sapiens BEFORE the hominins had their new concepts. My argument has been that the enlargement came about through the implementation of new concepts, i.e. that all “modifications” (enlargement, complexification, shrinkage) are the RESULT of implementation. If you now agree that size modifies with, and not before, new implementations, or as you say earlier in this post: "implementation results in automatic plasticity changes" (my bold), it will be another hallelujah day.
Apologies for this late response, but I had a computer glitch after my first post. and it has only just been sorted out.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by David Turell , Wednesday, February 14, 2018, 01:45 (2475 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: In my theory God manages or runs evolution. It does not run itself by chance. A newly enlarged, more complex brain is evolved from a previous smaller less complex brain by God. Implementation results in automatic plasticity changes which may shrink earch stage of brain slightly, as based on current scientific fact.
dhw: In my theory (theistic version) your God created life and the mechanisms for evolution. It does not run itself by chance but by the God-given intelligence with which organisms cope with or exploit ever changing environments. The latter may be subject to chance, and you can’t make up your own mind whether they are or are not controlled by your God. And yes, yes, yes, implementation RESULTS in changes. It does not precede changes. Current scientific fact tells us that the change resulting from implementation is COMPLEXIFICATION, which I suggest is so efficient that it has also caused shrinkage. This process may also have occurred in pre-sapiens until expansion became necessary (in both hypotheses). There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that any changes take place BEFORE implementation, whereas your theory is that enlargement (which occurs in both hypotheses) did take place before implementation: the exact opposite of your own statement above that implementation RESULTS in changes. (See also “big brain evolution”.)
DAVID: The part in bold of your statement is a complete misinterpretation of my view. My point is simple. At each stage in the size of brain as human evolution proceeded, that size had plasticity and could modify with new implementations. It might even shrink slightly as we see in the sapiens level of development.
dhw: Until now, I have always understood your hypothesis to be that your God enlarged the brains of pre-sapiens BEFORE the hominins had their new concepts.
I've not changed. New enlarged brain in a next step to sapiens can now conceive of new concepts and implementation may result in some shrinkage as in sapiens.
dhw: My argument has been that the enlargement came about through the implementation of new concepts, i.e. that all “modifications” (enlargement, complexification, shrinkage) are the RESULT of implementation.
I can accept as modification a few new neurons. many new axons and connections and at times shrinkage. A mind filled with unfulfilled concepts cannot drive enlargement of brain and skull pan. Neurons are neurons, not a planning design committee.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by dhw, Wednesday, February 14, 2018, 13:26 (2474 days ago) @ David Turell
I am editing this post and the next to make the argument clear.
DAVID: Implementation results in automatic plasticity changes which may shrink earch stage of brain slightly, as based on current scientific fact. (dhw’s bold)
dhw: There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that any changes take place BEFORE implementation, whereas your theory is that enlargement (which occurs in both hypotheses) did take place before implementation: the exact opposite of your own statement above that implementation RESULTS in changes. (David’s bold)
DAVID: The part in bold of your statement is a complete misinterpretation of my view. My point is simple. At each stage in the size of brain as human evolution proceeded, that size had plasticity and could modify with new implementations. It might even shrink slightly as we see in the sapiens level of development.
dhw: Until now, I have always understood your hypothesis to be that your God enlarged the brains of pre-sapiens BEFORE the hominins had their new concepts.
DAVID: I've not changed. New enlarged brain in a next step to sapiens can now conceive of new concepts and implementation may result in some shrinkage as in sapiens.
So how is my bolded statement above a complete misrepresentation? You are now saying yet again that the brain is enlarged BEFORE the hominin is able to conceive and implement his new concepts! (It may be true, but that is materialism, which you claim to reject.)
dhw: My argument has been that the enlargement came about through the implementation of new concepts, i.e. that all “modifications” (enlargement, complexification, shrinkage) are the RESULT of implementation.
DAVID: I can accept as modification a few new neurons. many new axons and connections and at times shrinkage. A mind filled with unfulfilled concepts cannot drive enlargement of brain and skull pan. Neurons are neurons, not a planning design committee.
1) Why can you accept a few new neurons but not a lot of new neurons as “modification”?
2) Neurons are cells, and your last statement is indeed the essence of dualism: according to you it is NOT the material cells that do the planning. It is the immaterial self/soul/consciousness. Therefore additional cells will NOT enable the hominin to come up with new concepts.
3 You agree that “implementation RESULTS in automatic plastic changes”: additional neurons plus all their connections = automatic plastic changes. But you claim that these changes are NOT the result of implementation.
4 You agree that “size had plasticity and could modify with implementations”, and yet it now appears that size is not plastic and cannot modify with new implementations.
But you cannot see any of these contradictions.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by David Turell , Wednesday, February 14, 2018, 19:15 (2474 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Until now, I have always understood your hypothesis to be that your God enlarged the brains of pre-sapiens BEFORE the hominins had their new concepts.
DAVID: I've not changed. New enlarged brain in a next step to sapiens can now conceive of new concepts and implementation may result in some shrinkage as in sapiens.
dhw: So how is my bolded statement above a complete misrepresentation? You are now saying yet again that the brain is enlarged BEFORE the hominin is able to conceive and implement his new concepts! (It may be true, but that is materialism, which you claim to reject.)
You are forgetting my contention that only an advanced complexity allows the s/s/c to form advanced concepts, hardware and software.
dhw: My argument has been that the enlargement came about through the implementation of new concepts, i.e. that all “modifications” (enlargement, complexification, shrinkage) are the RESULT of implementation.DAVID: I can accept as modification a few new neurons. many new axons and connections and at times shrinkage. A mind filled with unfulfilled concepts cannot drive enlargement of brain and skull pan. Neurons are neurons, not a planning design committee.
dhw: 1) Why can you accept a few new neurons but not a lot of new neurons as “modification”?
Because that is how plasticity is described in the literature.
dhw: 2) Neurons are cells, and your last statement is indeed the essence of dualism: according to you it is NOT the material cells that do the planning. It is the immaterial self/soul/consciousness. Therefore additional cells will NOT enable the hominin to come up with new concepts.
Again forgetting my hardware software concept. Only advanced brains in complexity can come up with advanced concepts designed/created by the s/s/c.
dhw: 3 You agree that “implementation RESULTS in automatic plastic changes”: additional neurons plus all their connections = automatic plastic changes. But you claim that these changes are NOT the result of implementation.
What did you read? Each new advanced brain has plasticity at that level, since it is already enlarged and more complex.
dhw: 4 You agree that “size had plasticity and could modify with implementations”, and yet it now appears that size is not plastic and cannot modify with new implementations.
But you cannot see any of these contradictions.
No contradictions. You are the one who wants to drive enlargement with implementation when we know in sapiens ( as the only evidence we have) all we see is complexity and shrinkage.
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by dhw, Thursday, February 15, 2018, 11:23 (2474 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw (Feb. 13): …as you keep agreeing and then disagreeing, the s/s/c does the thinking (software) and the brain gives material expression to the thought (hardware). That is how they work together.
DAVID: Agreed.
dhw: Then let us keep this in mind throughout our discussion.
But you don’t.
dhw: You are now saying yet again that the brain is enlarged BEFORE the hominin is able to conceive and implement his new concepts! (It may be true, but that is materialism, which you claim to reject.)
DAVID: You are forgetting my contention that only an advanced complexity allows the s/s/c to form advanced concepts, hardware and software.
And you are forgetting yet again the very essence of your dualism and your analogy, to which you have agreed over and over again: that the software (s/s/c) thinks up the concepts, and the hardware (brain) implements them. The hardware does not “allow” the software to think!
dhw: 1) Why can you accept a few new neurons but not a lot of new neurons as “modification”?
DAVID: Because that is how plasticity is described in the literature.
Plasticity is simply the ability to change, to be shaped or moulded, to adapt…I don’t know of any definition of plasticity that places a limit on the number of cells that can be changed.
dhw: 2) Neurons are cells, and your last statement is indeed the essence of dualism: according to you it is NOT the material cells that do the planning. It is the immaterial self/soul/consciousness. Therefore additional cells will NOT enable the hominin to come up with new concepts.
DAVID: Again forgetting my hardware software concept. Only advanced brains in complexity can come up with advanced concepts designed/created by the s/s/c.
Yet again, as you keep forgetting, in dualism the concepts are designed by the s/s/c (software) and implemented by the brain (hardware). It is not the brain that comes up with the concept.
dhw: 3 You agree that “implementation RESULTS in automatic plastic changes”: additional neurons plus all their connections = automatic plastic changes. But you claim that these changes are NOT the result of implementation.
DAVID: What did you read? Each new advanced brain has plasticity at that level, since it is already enlarged and more complex.
The brain is plastic at all levels. It is you who wrote that implementation results in changes, as quoted above. And of course once the implementation has taken place, the brain is enlarged and more complex. Then along comes the next new concept, and its implementation results in more changes and eventually the next enlargement. As you keep forgetting, in dualism it is the s/s/c and not the brain that comes up with new concepts.
dhw: 4 You agree that “size had plasticity and could modify with implementations”, and yet it now appears that size is not plastic and cannot modify with new implementations.
But you cannot see any of these contradictions.
DAVID: No contradictions. You are the one who wants to drive enlargement with implementation when we know in sapiens (as the only evidence we have) all we see is complexity and shrinkage.
The contradiction lies in your continued refusal to accept your own basic premise, which is that the s/s/c (software) does the thinking first and then the brain (hardware) does the implementing. If complexification and shrinkage are the result of implementing new concepts, then it is not unreasonable to suppose that enlargement would also be the result of implementation.
Xxxxxxx
Brain complexity: gene response to light stimuli
by David Turell , Thursday, February 15, 2018, 14:58 (2473 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: You are forgetting my contention that only an advanced complexity allows the s/s/c to form advanced concepts, hardware and software.
dhw: And you are forgetting yet again the very essence of your dualism and your analogy, to which you have agreed over and over again: that the software (s/s/c) thinks up the concepts, and the hardware (brain) implements them. The hardware does not “allow” the software to think!
And you are not following my concept. only an advanced hardware brain allows advanced thought. Erectus s/s/c is n ot sapiens s/s/c.
dhw: 1) Why can you accept a few new neurons but not a lot of new neurons as “modification”?
DAVID: Because that is how plasticity is described in the literature.
dhw: Plasticity is simply the ability to change, to be shaped or moulded, to adapt…I don’t know of any definition of plasticity that places a limit on the number of cells that can be changed.
My answer is above. Plasticity allows a few new neurons in the research done. It is mostly connectivity.
dhw: 2) Neurons are cells, and your last statement is indeed the essence of dualism: according to you it is NOT the material cells that do the planning. It is the immaterial self/soul/consciousness. Therefore additional cells will NOT enable the hominin to come up with new concepts.
DAVID: Again forgetting my hardware software concept. Only advanced brains in complexity can come up with advanced concepts designed/created by the s/s/c.
dhw: Yet again, as you keep forgetting, in dualism the concepts are designed by the s/s/c (software) and implemented by the brain (hardware). It is not the brain that comes up with the concept.
It works in my concept of advanced brains allow advanced thought.
.
dhw: 4 You agree that “size had plasticity and could modify with implementations”, and yet it now appears that size is not plastic and cannot modify with new implementations.
But you cannot see any of these contradictions.
DAVID: No contradictions. You are the one who wants to drive enlargement with implementation when we know in sapiens (as the only evidence we have) all we see is complexity and shrinkage.
dhw: The contradiction lies in your continued refusal to accept your own basic premise, which is that the s/s/c (software) does the thinking first and then the brain (hardware) does the implementing. If complexification and shrinkage are the result of implementing new concepts, then it is not unreasonable to suppose that enlargement would also be the result of implementation.
Only a complex computer does the complex problems and analyses leading to new concepts and implementations. My approach of brain as computer and s/s/c as software fits exactly each level of Homo development and the artifacts seen at each level. Erectus s/s/c not sapiens s/s/c. Consciousness evolves obviously.
Brain complexity: how plasticity works
by David Turell , Thursday, June 21, 2018, 21:12 (2347 days ago) @ David Turell
It is obvious that if the brain increases its complexity by simply adding synapses it might get into an overload situation in which the neurons could not handle all the new connections. What happens is that as new synapses start or become stronger others become more quiet:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-06-scientists-fundamental-brain-plasticity.html
"In a new study in Science, researchers at the Picower Institute for Learning and Memory at MIT demonstrate for the first time how this balance is struck: when one connection, called a synapse, strengthens, immediately neighboring synapses weaken based on the action of a crucial protein called Arc.
***
"When one synapse goes up, within 50 micrometers there is a decrease in the strength of other synapses using a well-defined molecular mechanism."
"This finding, he said, provides an explanation of how synaptic strengthening and weakening combine in neurons to produce plasticity.
***
"'I think it's quite amazing that we are able to reprogram single neurons in the intact brain and witness in the living tissue the diversity of molecular mechanisms that allows these cells to integrate new functions through synaptic plasticity," El-Boustani said.
"As the synapse for the new receptive field grew, the researchers could see under the two-photon microscope that nearby synapses also shrank.
***
"Having seen the new rule in effect, the researchers were still eager to understand how neurons obey it. They used a chemical tag to watch how key "AMPA" receptors changed in the synapses and saw that synaptic enlargement and strengthening correlated with more AMPA receptor expression while shrinking and weakening correlated with less AMPA receptor expression.
"The protein Arc regulates AMPA receptor expression, so the team realized they had to track Arc to fully understand what was going on. The problem, Sur said, is that no one had ever done that before in the brain of a live, behaving animal. So the team reached out to co-authors at the Kyoto University Graduate School of Medicine and the University of Tokyo, who invented a chemical tag that could do so.
"Using the tag, the team could see that the strengthening synapses were surrounded with weakened synapses that had enriched Arc expression. Synapses with reduced amount of Arc were able to express more AMPA receptors whereas increased Arc in neighboring spines caused those synapses to express less AMPA receptors.
"'We think Arc maintains a balance of synaptic resources," Ip said. "If something goes up, something must go down. That's the major role of Arc."
"Sur said the study therefore solves a mystery of Arc: No one before had understood why Arc seemed to be upregulated in dendrites undergoing synaptic plasticity, even though it acts to weaken synapses, but now the answer was clear. Strengthening synapses increase Arc to weaken their neighbors.
"Sur added that the rule helps explain how learning and memory might work at the individual neuron level because it shows how a neuron adjusts to the repeated simulation of another."
Comment: New brain plasticity is thus controlled from an area becoming overloaded. As all biological systems must exert total control, this system must also have feedback loops to adjust the activity levels within proper functional limits. Such a system must be designed.
Brain complexity: how plasticity works
by dhw, Friday, June 22, 2018, 13:25 (2346 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: It is obvious that if the brain increases its complexity by simply adding synapses it might get into an overload situation in which the neurons could not handle all the new connections. What happens is that as new synapses start or become stronger others become more quiet:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-06-scientists-fundamental-brain-plasticity.html
QUOTE: "As the synapse for the new receptive field grew, the researchers could see under the two-photon microscope that nearby synapses also shrank.”
This would seem to support my proposal that shrinkage in the sapiens brain has been caused by the increased efficiency of complexification.
Brain complexity: how plasticity works
by David Turell , Friday, June 22, 2018, 18:33 (2346 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: It is obvious that if the brain increases its complexity by simply adding synapses it might get into an overload situation in which the neurons could not handle all the new connections. What happens is that as new synapses start or become stronger others become more quiet:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-06-scientists-fundamental-brain-plasticity.htmlQUOTE: "As the synapse for the new receptive field grew, the researchers could see under the two-photon microscope that nearby synapses also shrank.”
dhw: This would seem to support my proposal that shrinkage in the sapiens brain has been caused by the increased efficiency of complexification.
It is also my theory. The sapiens brain has lost 150 cc of volume because of the intensity of the new conceptualizations as we civilized. The real debate is whether this is a new brain property found only in our brain or did this ability exist in the past in Erectus' brains, which were only 200 cc +/- smaller in size?
Brain complexity: how plasticity works
by dhw, Saturday, June 23, 2018, 10:32 (2346 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: "As the synapse for the new receptive field grew, the researchers could see under the two-photon microscope that nearby synapses also shrank.”
dhw: This would seem to support my proposal that shrinkage in the sapiens brain has been caused by the increased efficiency of complexification.
DAVID: It is also my theory. The sapiens brain has lost 150 cc of volume because of the intensity of the new conceptualizations as we civilized. The real debate is whether this is a new brain property found only in our brain or did this ability exist in the past in Erectus' brains, which were only 200 cc +/- smaller in size?
That is not the “real debate” between you and me, which concerns the various pre-sapiens expansions. Whether their brains also shrank is irrelevant (though you have repeatedly introduced it as an objection to my proposed explanation), since the question is why they expanded. You will no doubt recall your theory that your God expanded their brains so that they could come up with new thoughts, which means the brain is the source of thought (= materialism). I suggested that since dualists believe in a “separate consciousness mechanism” called the soul, brain expansion must be due to the implementation of the soul's thoughts, in line with the known fact that it is the implementation of thoughts that causes changes to the brain. Fortunately for both of us, I have come up with a theory that reconciles both approaches, and can also fit in with theism and atheism! (See my post on THEORY OF INTELLIGENCE Part Two.)
Brain complexity: how plasticity works
by David Turell , Saturday, June 23, 2018, 15:23 (2345 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: "As the synapse for the new receptive field grew, the researchers could see under the two-photon microscope that nearby synapses also shrank.”
dhw: This would seem to support my proposal that shrinkage in the sapiens brain has been caused by the increased efficiency of complexification.
DAVID: It is also my theory. The sapiens brain has lost 150 cc of volume because of the intensity of the new conceptualizations as we civilized. The real debate is whether this is a new brain property found only in our brain or did this ability exist in the past in Erectus' brains, which were only 200 cc +/- smaller in size?
dhw: That is not the “real debate” between you and me, which concerns the various pre-sapiens expansions. Whether their brains also shrank is irrelevant (though you have repeatedly introduced it as an objection to my proposed explanation), since the question is why they expanded. You will no doubt recall your theory that your God expanded their brains so that they could come up with new thoughts, which means the brain is the source of thought (= materialism). I suggested that since dualists believe in a “separate consciousness mechanism” called the soul, brain expansion must be due to the implementation of the soul's thoughts, in line with the known fact that it is the implementation of thoughts that causes changes to the brain. Fortunately for both of us, I have come up with a theory that reconciles both approaches, and can also fit in with theism and atheism! (See my post on THEORY OF INTELLIGENCE Part Two.)
A deliberate repeated false statement about my theory, which has two parts. A soul which is the software using expanded brain size and complexity hardware to produce thought which is more complex than in previous species of homo. TWO parts, hardware and software are required for the thought to be originated.
Brain complexity: how plasticity works
by dhw, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 15:49 (2344 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: That is not the “real debate” between you and me, which concerns the various pre-sapiens expansions. Whether their brains also shrank is irrelevant (though you have repeatedly introduced it as an objection to my proposed explanation), since the question is why they expanded. You will no doubt recall your theory that your God expanded their brains so that they could come up with new thoughts, which means the brain is the source of thought (= materialism). I suggested that since dualists believe in a “separate consciousness mechanism” called the soul, brain expansion must be due to the implementation of the soul's thoughts, in line with the known fact that it is the implementation of thoughts that causes changes to the brain. Fortunately for both of us, I have come up with a theory that reconciles both approaches, and can also fit in with theism and atheism! (See my post on THEORY OF INTELLIGENCE Part Two.)
DAVID: A deliberate repeated false statement about my theory, which has two parts. A soul which is the software using expanded brain size and complexity hardware to produce thought which is more complex than in previous species of homo. TWO parts, hardware and software are required for the thought to be originated.
Please see the post under THEORY OF INTELLIGENCE Part Two
Brain complexity: how plasticity works
by David Turell , Sunday, June 24, 2018, 19:01 (2344 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: That is not the “real debate” between you and me, which concerns the various pre-sapiens expansions. Whether their brains also shrank is irrelevant (though you have repeatedly introduced it as an objection to my proposed explanation), since the question is why they expanded. You will no doubt recall your theory that your God expanded their brains so that they could come up with new thoughts, which means the brain is the source of thought (= materialism). I suggested that since dualists believe in a “separate consciousness mechanism” called the soul, brain expansion must be due to the implementation of the soul's thoughts, in line with the known fact that it is the implementation of thoughts that causes changes to the brain. Fortunately for both of us, I have come up with a theory that reconciles both approaches, and can also fit in with theism and atheism! (See my post on THEORY OF INTELLIGENCE Part Two.)
DAVID: A deliberate repeated false statement about my theory, which has two parts. A soul which is the software using expanded brain size and complexity hardware to produce thought which is more complex than in previous species of homo. TWO parts, hardware and software are required for the thought to be originated.
dhw: Please see the post under THEORY OF INTELLIGENCE Part Two
I've reviewed it over and over. It includes pure materialism. Mine doesn't. In my view the soul is a software, immaterial mechanism that interfaces with the brain's hardware networks and uses those networks to produce original thought. True dualism.
Brain complexity: parental contribution to personality
by David Turell , Monday, February 19, 2018, 18:40 (2469 days ago) @ dhw
An interesting discussion which points out genetic inheritance from parents is not entierly direct:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/kids-learning-and-health-is-shaped-by-genes-they-don...
"It’s a hoary old debate: how much do our genes define how we grow and learn, and how much is due to the environment? A new study by Kong and colleagues shows that parents’ genes, even those not passed on to children, have major effects on kids’ health and educational attainment.
"We already know parents contribute genes that directly influence development, and that the child’s environment determines how these genes have an effect.
"But a crucial part of this environment is the parents. To me, this new study highlights the importance of parental genes in shaping how we are raised.
"We know from many studies that most aspects of human growth and development are strongly influenced by the genetic make-up of the child. For instance, comparing identical and non-identical twins shows big genetic components for such physical differences as height and weight, as well as for many behaviours, including learning ability.
"But we also know all of these traits are strongly influenced by the environment. For instance, height can be stunted by poor nutrition, and learning ability limited by poverty.
***
"[In the study]they correlated the non-transmitted parental alleles to aspects of education and health in their children. They found, overall, that non-transmitted alleles added up to major effect on the educational attainment of the child, nearly a third of the direct effect of the children’s own genes. Non-transmitted alleles had the same effect won educational attainment whether they were in mothers or fathers.
"It was similar for components of growth and health: height, weight, body mass index, use of glucose and fat metabolism in the body, and even the number of cigarettes smoked. Again, the non-transmitted parental alleles (especially the mother’s) were found to have a major effect, even though they didn’t end up in the children.
"So why am I not surprised by this new finding?
"We have known for a long time that the genetic make-up of the mother may have a strong effect on the development of her offspring. “Maternal effect genes” have been studied for decades in domestic animals, even fish and fruit flies.
"In humans and other mammals, such genes influence health and nutritional status of the mother during pregnancy, and the supply and make-up of her milk. This has big effects on the growth and development of the fetus and the infant. So it is not surprising that, in this study, the mothers’ non-transmitted alleles have a greater effect on their children’s health than those from the father.
"But how would the father’s non-transmitted genes work? And how would parental genes affect the ultimate education attainment of their child?
"The transmission of influence must be via the parents’ parenting behaviour, which is itself partly genetically determined. The priorities that parents place on reading, sport, use of alcohol and cigarettes are all shaped by genes, and create a home environment that influences children for better or for worse.
"This work emphasises that parents are critical components of their child’s environment. Their contribution to their children’s welfare is not only directly through the alleles they pass on, but also indirectly through their own genetic make-up that influences who they are and how they raise their children.
"Kong calls this “genetic nurture”. But I wonder if his work has inadvertently started to identify genes that contribute to “good parenting”?"
Comment: Just adds to our knowledge about the genetic makeup of personality.
Brain complexity: parental contribution to personality
by dhw, Tuesday, February 20, 2018, 11:20 (2469 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: An interesting discussion which points out genetic inheritance from parents is not entirely direct:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/kids-learning-and-health-is-shaped-by-genes-they-don...
DAVID’s comment: Just adds to our knowledge about the genetic makeup of personality.
I'm only commenting because I love it when you and I are in agreement! But between ourselves, I already knew that my parents’ genes and behaviour influenced my personality, and that their own inheritance from their parents’ genes and behaviour influenced THEIR personalities, which means that their inheritance influenced my inheritance, and so on...
Brain complexity: parental contribution to personality
by David Turell , Thursday, March 22, 2018, 18:36 (2438 days ago) @ David Turell
A new study in mice demonstrates how nurture by different moms affects the brain:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-03-early-life-dna-adult-brain.html
"In the perennial question of nature versus nurture, a new study suggests an intriguing connection between the two. Salk Institute scientists report in the journal Science that the type of mothering a female mouse provides her pups actually changes their DNA. The work lends support to studies about how childhood environments affect brain development in humans and could provide insights into neuropsychiatric disorders such as depression and schizophrenia.
"'We are taught that our DNA is something stable and unchanging which makes us who we are, but in reality it's much more dynamic," says Rusty Gage, a professor in Salk's Laboratory of Genetics. "It turns out there are genes in your cells that are capable of copying themselves and moving around, which means that, in some ways, your DNA does change."
"For at least a decade, scientists have known that most cells in the mammalian brain undergo changes to their DNA that make each neuron, for example, slightly different from its neighbor. Some of these changes are caused by "jumping" genes—officially known as long interspersed nuclear elements (LINEs)—that move from one spot in the genome to another. In 2005, the Gage lab discovered that a jumping gene called L1, which was already known to copy and paste itself into new places in the genome, could jump in developing neuronal brain cells.
***
" Gage, Bedrosian and colleagues began by observing natural variations in maternal care between mice and their offspring. They then looked at DNA from the offspring's hippocampus, which is involved in emotion, memory and some involuntary functions. The team discovered a correlation between maternal care and L1 copy number: mice with attentive mothers had fewer copies of the jumping gene L1, and those with neglectful mothers had more L1 copies, and thus more genetic diversity in their brains.
***
"The researchers hypothesized that offspring whose mothers were neglectful were more stressed and that somehow this was causing genes to copy and move around more frequently. Interestingly, there was no similar correlation between maternal care and the numbers of other known jumping genes, which suggested a unique role for L1. So, next, the team looked at methylation—the pattern of chemical marks on DNA that signals whether genes should or should not be copied and that can be influenced by environmental factors. In this case, methylation of the other known jumping genes was consistent for all offspring. But it was a different story with L1: mice with neglectful mothers had noticeably fewer methylated L1 genes than those with attentive mothers, suggesting that methylation is the mechanism responsible for the mobility of the L1 gene.
"'This finding agrees with studies of childhood neglect that also show altered patterns of DNA methylation for other genes," says Gage, who holds the Vi and John Adler Chair for Research on Age-Related Neurodegenerative Diseases. "That's a hopeful thing, because once you understand a mechanism, you can begin to develop strategies for intervention"
"The researchers emphasize that at this point it's unclear whether there are functional consequences of increased L1 elements. Future work will examine whether the mice's performance on cognitive tests, such as remembering which path in a maze leads to a treat, can be correlated with the number of L1 genes. "
Comment: this work confirms what we have thought. It also reemphasizes that neuronal genetics helps form the personality in the way that brain neurons are constructed to receive the work of the s/s/c in development.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Thursday, March 01, 2018, 13:22 (2459 days ago) @ David Turell
David has reopened the discussion on baby brains, in spite of our having closed it on 29 January. Below is the relevant post:
dhw: We agree that genetics, nurture and experience modify each other as life progresses from birth, but genes are already present even before birth. That is the reason why the article I quoted expressly dismisses the “blank slate” hypothesis on the grounds that “most people are now thought to have significant ‘preprogramming’ from genes that have some influence on almost every want, trait, feeling, thought, and action.” Since you reckon that genes constitute 40% of a personality, you can hardly disagree. Yes, modification begins at birth. No, the personality is not a blank slate at birth. If it was, there would be nothing to modify.
DAVID: My view: We can end this discussion on this point: a person expresses his personality from a zero developmental point at birth. There is a background of source material that is preprogrammed, that with nurture, and experience in living shapes the final personality structure that carries him through life. That structure can be modified by onesself (rare) or by counselling (more common).
dhw: Very happy with most of this. The blank slate personality has finally disappeared (“background of source material that is preprogrammed”), I would leave out “final” (if a structure can be modified, it is not final), and I would add that the structure can be modified by accident, disease and experience (especially traumatic). Pax?
DAVID: From my experience, the final structure generally can only have very small modifications. Pax.
You did renege on this a week later, but then backed down. Now we have to start all over again:
DAVID (under “Big brain evolution”): The baby starts as a blank slate at birth. Yes, there is a genetic input to come, but as the brain develops the child develops its own particular construction of a s/s/c. The two must work together and advances in the s/s/c must wait until brain development is ready for each step.
And:
As with newborns concepts wait for brain development first.
I agree that a new born baby is unlikely to have any concepts when it emerges. Concepts will only arise out information in the form of experience, and in our material world that is provided by the brain. But from the moment the brain begins to provide information, it is the s/s/c that processes the information and in due course – almost immediately – begins to conceptualize. That is the first way in which they “work together”. Within a couple of days there were marked differences between my twin grandsons in their response to my holding them. One was totally placid and stayed in my arms, and the other immediately began to howl, but was pacified when passed back to his mother. This happened repeatedly during several visits. There is no blank slate! Here the concept of security clearly gives rise to a material response (howl). Move forward a few months, when the brain has provided a great deal more information, and the second way of "working together" becomes crystal clear (whether you are a dualist or materialist). The babies are being spoonfed. They try to grasp the spoon and feed themselves. Mess everywhere. The new connections have to be established. The brain does NOT make the connections before the baby sees the spoon. The s/s/c makes the effort to implement the concept, and in due course the neurons get the message and make the necessary adjustments – precisely the same process as the illiterate women learning to write, and pre-sapiens learning to make and use the spear. Implementation of the s/s/c’s concept modifies the brain, which has provided the information that gives rise to the concept.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Friday, March 02, 2018, 00:33 (2459 days ago) @ dhw
You did renege on this a week later, but then backed down. Now we have to start all over again:
DAVID (under “Big brain evolution”): The baby starts as a blank slate at birth. Yes, there is a genetic input to come, but as the brain develops the child develops its own particular construction of a s/s/c. The two must work together and advances in the s/s/c must wait until brain development is ready for each step.
And:
As with newborns concepts wait for brain development first.dhw: I agree that a new born baby is unlikely to have any concepts when it emerges.
"Unlikely". There are none at birth.
dhw: Concepts will only arise out information in the form of experience, and in our material world that is provided by the brain. But from the moment the brain begins to provide information, it is the s/s/c that processes the information and in due course – almost immediately – begins to conceptualize. That is the first way in which they “work together”. Within a couple of days there were marked differences between my twin grandsons in their response to my holding them. One was totally placid and stayed in my arms, and the other immediately began to howl, but was pacified when passed back to his mother. This happened repeatedly during several visits. There is no blank slate!
Of course there is a blank slate. What you are describing happened several days or weeks after birth. Blank slate at birth.
dhw:Here the concept of security clearly gives rise to a material response (howl). Move forward a few months, when the brain has provided a great deal more information, and the second way of "working together" becomes crystal clear (whether you are a dualist or materialist). The babies are being spoonfed. They try to grasp the spoon and feed themselves. Mess everywhere. The new connections have to be established. The brain does NOT make the connections before the baby sees the spoon. The s/s/c makes the effort to implement the concept, and in due course the neurons get the message and make the necessary adjustments – precisely the same process as the illiterate women learning to write, and pre-sapiens learning to make and use the spear. Implementation of the s/s/c’s concept modifies the brain, which has provided the information that gives rise to the concept.
You are generally correct. Two things are going on. Appearance of new neurons and connections for no good reason other than developmental embryology going on after birth; and also connections of memory and conceptualization at a simple level.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Friday, March 02, 2018, 12:27 (2458 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: I agree that a new born baby is unlikely to have any concepts when it emerges.
DAVID: "Unlikely". There are none at birth.
More and more research is being done on what information babies absorb within the womb (through sound, smell, taste etc., but also through factors such as stress), and how much of their future is already determined by it. I would not like to be as dogmatic as you on the subject.
dhw: Concepts will only arise out information in the form of experience, and in our material world that is provided by the brain. But from the moment the brain begins to provide information, it is the s/s/c that processes the information and in due course – almost immediately – begins to conceptualize. That is the first way in which they “work together”. Within a couple of days there were marked differences between my twin grandsons in their response to my holding them. One was totally placid and stayed in my arms, and the other immediately began to howl, but was pacified when passed back to his mother. This happened repeatedly during several visits. There is no blank slate!
DAVID: Of course there is a blank slate. What you are describing happened several days or weeks after birth. Blank slate at birth.
I think it was two days after the birth when I first visited the hospital, but my daughter-in-law was aware of differences right from the start. You have ignored the agreement we reached earlier on this. See above re pre-natal influences, but in any case you simply cannot argue that 40% of a personality is determined by the genes and then tell us the newborn is a blank slate.
dhw: Here the concept of security clearly gives rise to a material response (howl). Move forward a few months, when the brain has provided a great deal more information, and the second way of "working together" becomes crystal clear (whether you are a dualist or materialist). The babies are being spoonfed. They try to grasp the spoon and feed themselves. Mess everywhere. The new connections have to be established. The brain does NOT make the connections before the baby sees the spoon. The s/s/c makes the effort to implement the concept, and in due course the neurons get the message and make the necessary adjustments – precisely the same process as the illiterate women learning to write, and pre-sapiens learning to make and use the spear. Implementation of the s/s/c’s concept modifies the brain, which has provided the information that gives rise to the concept.
DAVID: You are generally correct. Two things are going on. Appearance of new neurons and connections for no good reason other than developmental embryology going on after birth; and also connections of memory and conceptualization at a simple level.
Of course it’s at a simple level. Pre-sapiens was also at a simple level compared to sapiens, but that doesn’t alter the indisputable fact that concept precedes changes to the brain, which are caused by implementation of the concept. Please bear this in mind when dealing with the post under “Big brain evolution”.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Friday, March 02, 2018, 14:59 (2458 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: I agree that a new born baby is unlikely to have any concepts when it emerges.
DAVID: "Unlikely". There are none at birth.dhw: More and more research is being done on what information babies absorb within the womb (through sound, smell, taste etc., but also through factors such as stress), and how much of their future is already determined by it. I would not like to be as dogmatic as you on the subject.
I am aware of the sensory input you have described; it is not concept formation.
DAVID: Of course there is a blank slate. What you are describing happened several days or weeks after birth. Blank slate at birth.
dhw: I think it was two days after the birth when I first visited the hospital, but my daughter-in-law was aware of differences right from the start. You have ignored the agreement we reached earlier on this. See above re pre-natal influences, but in any case you simply cannot argue that 40% of a personality is determined by the genes and then tell us the newborn is a blank slate.
Genes have to be expressed. At birth, zero time, they are not yet expressed. We just have a differnt view of what blank slate means
DAVID: You are generally correct. Two things are going on. Appearance of new neurons and connections for no good reason other than developmental embryology going on after birth; and also connections of memory and conceptualization at a simple level.dhw: Of course it’s at a simple level. Pre-sapiens was also at a simple level compared to sapiens, but that doesn’t alter the indisputable fact that concept precedes changes to the brain, which are caused by implementation of the concept.
Concepts modify existing brains of every size.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Saturday, March 03, 2018, 13:34 (2457 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Of course there is a blank slate. What you are describing happened several days or weeks after birth. Blank slate at birth.
dhw: I think it was two days after the birth when I first visited the hospital, but my daughter-in-law was aware of differences right from the start. You have ignored the agreement we reached earlier on this. See above re pre-natal influences, but in any case you simply cannot argue that 40% of a personality is determined by the genes and then tell us the newborn is a blank slate.
DAVID: Genes have to be expressed. At birth, zero time, they are not yet expressed. We just have a differnt view of what blank slate means.
Babies are not born with identical personalities. So the personality is not a blank slate. Yes, it takes time for differences to become manifest to other people. A couple of hours maybe. But the differences are there, so what does your “blank slate” refer to? It can only be our knowledge of the baby’s personality. Nothing to do with the baby itself. Summary: we are all born with certain given characteristics (40% according to you). Environment and experience shape, develop and may even change these characteristics in a process that continues until death.
DAVID: Two things are going on. Appearance of new neurons and connections for no good reason other than developmental embryology going on after birth; and also connections of memory and conceptualization at a simple level.
dhw: Of course it’s at a simple level. Pre-sapiens was also at a simple level compared to sapiens, but that doesn’t alter the indisputable fact that concept precedes changes to the brain, which are caused by implementation of the concept.
DAVID: Concepts modify existing brains of every size.
Thank you. This should be remembered when we come to possible causes of brain expansion.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Saturday, March 03, 2018, 15:00 (2457 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Genes have to be expressed. At birth, zero time, they are not yet expressed. We just have a differnt view of what blank slate means.
dhw: Babies are not born with identical personalities. So the personality is not a blank slate. Yes, it takes time for differences to become manifest to other people. A couple of hours maybe. But the differences are there, so what does your “blank slate” refer to? It can only be our knowledge of the baby’s personality. Nothing to do with the baby itself. Summary: we are all born with certain given characteristics (40% according to you). Environment and experience shape, develop and may even change these characteristics in a process that continues until death.
I will agree with you that each baby is born with different potentials for personality developement
DAVID: Two things are going on. Appearance of new neurons and connections for no good reason other than developmental embryology going on after birth; and also connections of memory and conceptualization at a simple level.
dhw: Of course it’s at a simple level. Pre-sapiens was also at a simple level compared to sapiens, but that doesn’t alter the indisputable fact that concept precedes changes to the brain, which are caused by implementation of the concept.
DAVID: Concepts modify existing brains of every size.Thank you. This should be remembered when we come to possible causes of brain expansion.
But implementation need not cause enlargement but simply refine the existing networks. Please tell us how implementation causes the enlargement. Development of a concept and implementation occur in the same sized brain all the time in our species. And our brains are demonstrably smaller than in the past as we have learned how to use it efficiently over the recent centuries.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Sunday, March 04, 2018, 11:59 (2456 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Babies are not born with identical personalities. So the personality is not a blank slate. Yes, it takes time for differences to become manifest to other people. A couple of hours maybe. But the differences are there, so what does your “blank slate” refer to? It can only be our knowledge of the baby’s personality. Nothing to do with the baby itself. Summary: we are all born with certain given characteristics (40% according to you). Environment and experience shape, develop and may even change these characteristics in a process that continues until death.
DAVID: I will agree with you that each baby is born with different potentials for personality development
Yes, you estimated that the inborn potential amounted to about 40%. No blank slate.
DAVID: Concepts modify existing brains of every size.
Dhw: Thank you. This should be remembered when we come to possible causes of brain expansion.
DAVID: But implementation need not cause enlargement but simply refine the existing networks. Please tell us how implementation causes the enlargement. Development of a concept and implementation occur in the same sized brain all the time in our species. And our brains are demonstrably smaller than in the past as we have learned how to use it efficiently over the recent centuries.
Of course it “need” not, and we know that the brain has now stopped expanding (at least for the time being) and complexification has taken over. But the brain DID expand. How? I would suggest by the same method as exercise can result in muscle expansion. I don’t know if physical/mental exercise results in additional cells or in the expansion of existing cells, but since brain expansion is a fact, and brain modification as a result of implementation is also a fact, I don’t know why you have so much trouble putting the two together.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Sunday, March 04, 2018, 14:43 (2456 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: But implementation need not cause enlargement but simply refine the existing networks. Please tell us how implementation causes the enlargement. Development of a concept and implementation occur in the same sized brain all the time in our species. And our brains are demonstrably smaller than in the past as we have learned how to use it efficiently over the recent centuries.
dhw: Of course it “need” not, and we know that the brain has now stopped expanding (at least for the time being) and complexification has taken over. But the brain DID expand. How? I would suggest by the same method as exercise can result in muscle expansion. I don’t know if physical/mental exercise results in additional cells or in the expansion of existing cells, but since brain expansion is a fact, and brain modification as a result of implementation is also a fact, I don’t know why you have so much trouble putting the two together.
We only KNOW our species in life. Our heavily used brain has shrunk over the 300,000 years it has been around. That is FACT. Muscles are not surrounded by a hard case. Again: to enlarge a brain in a new species, the skull must be larger And the Mothers must adapt their pelvis.
Further please define 'implementation'. Is it new muscular coordination? Or is it more thinking in design?
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Monday, March 05, 2018, 12:37 (2455 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: But implementation need not cause enlargement but simply refine the existing networks. Please tell us how implementation causes the enlargement. Development of a concept and implementation occur in the same sized brain all the time in our species. And our brains are demonstrably smaller than in the past as we have learned how to use it efficiently over the recent centuries.
dhw: Of course it “need” not, and we know that the brain has now stopped expanding (at least for the time being) and complexification has taken over. But the brain DID expand. How? I would suggest by the same method as exercise can result in muscle expansion. I don’t know if physical/mental exercise results in additional cells or in the expansion of existing cells, but since brain expansion is a fact, and brain modification as a result of implementation is also a fact, I don’t know why you have so much trouble putting the two together.
DAVID: We only KNOW our species in life. Our heavily used brain has shrunk over the 300,000 years it has been around. That is FACT. Muscles are not surrounded by a hard case. Again: to enlarge a brain in a new species, the skull must be larger And the Mothers must adapt their pelvis.
Further please define 'implementation'. Is it new muscular coordination? Or is it more thinking in design?
I am not disputing the shrinkage, and have suggested an explanation over and over again: the efficiency of complexification has made some cells and connections redundant. That doesn’t mean the brain shrinks with every new implementation! And I keep acknowledging that the skull must expand to accommodate the larger brain and there must be other adaptations to accommodate the change, and I keep pointing out that if your God could dabble the changes or preprogramme them, he could also design a mechanism enabling the cells that make up the brain/skull/pelvis to do it themselves. Even today we see organisms adapting themselves to new conditions, and no 3.8-billion-year computer programme has been discovered, and nobody has seen God reach down and dabble. Whether this adaptability can stretch to major changes and innovation is the moot point, which is why I can only offer it as a hypothesis.
Implementation as you well know is giving material form to an immaterial idea, whether that be verbal or other forms of expression, or the material construction and use of a spear that you once described so graphically yourself. Thinking in design is conceptualization, and according to you is the province of the self/soul/consciousness, and not of the brain, which does the implementing. Hence my pointing out the constantly repeated contradiction in your claim that the self is incapable of “thinking in design” without the larger brain.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Monday, March 05, 2018, 14:40 (2455 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: We only KNOW our species in life. Our heavily used brain has shrunk over the 300,000 years it has been around. That is FACT. Muscles are not surrounded by a hard case. Again: to enlarge a brain in a new species, the skull must be larger And the Mothers must adapt their pelvis.
Further please define 'implementation'. Is it new muscular coordination? Or is it more thinking in design?
dhw: Implementation as you well know is giving material form to an immaterial idea, whether that be verbal or other forms of expression, or the material construction and use of a spear that you once described so graphically yourself. Thinking in design is conceptualization, and according to you is the province of the self/soul/consciousness, and not of the brain, which does the implementing. Hence my pointing out the constantly repeated contradiction in your claim that the self is incapable of “thinking in design” without the larger brain.
Can you tell me what part of the brain is used in the implementation of making the spear after the concept appears in the pre-frontal cortex? I can, and it is a point you skip over. To make the flint tip, the stone must be shaped by the hands and arm. The wooden shaft must be obtained by walking in the woods, finding a likely branch, stripping it of bark ( by hand) and then attaching it to the tip. Learning to throw it involves coordination of arm and shoulder muscles with twisting of the spine muscles. It also involves the eyes helping the coordination in learning to throw with aim. The implementation uses the motor strip of the brain, which is in the middle of the cortex, the visual area, which is in the back, and all the muscle activity is coordinated in the cerebellum under the back of the brain itself.
Using Erectus as an example of this activity all of these areas were involved in simpler implementation activities in previous earlier hominins. In the skull fossil series, the primary enlarging region is not these. It is the prefrontal cortex where conceptual design takes place and which is the primary enlargement area.
Recognize that the s/s/c has been shown to interface in specific areas. Materialism has a role to play. My theory is not a contradiction but a careful analysis of these facts. Your approach is all theory, not recognizing how the brain works. A larger more complex prefrontal cortex permits the development of more complex concepts. Artefacts prove it.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Tuesday, March 06, 2018, 15:39 (2454 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Thinking in design is conceptualization, and according to you is the province of the self/soul/consciousness, and not of the brain, which does the implementing. Hence my pointing out the constantly repeated contradiction in your claim that the self is incapable of “thinking in design” without the larger brain.
DAVID: Can you tell me what part of the brain is used in the implementation of making the spear after the concept appears in the pre-frontal cortex? I can, and it is a point you skip over. To make the flint tip, the stone must be shaped by the hands and arm. The wooden shaft must be obtained by walking in the woods, finding a likely branch, stripping it of bark ( by hand) and then attaching it to the tip. Learning to throw it involves coordination of arm and shoulder muscles with twisting of the spine muscles. It also involves the eyes helping the coordination in learning to throw with aim. The implementation uses the motor strip of the brain, which is in the middle of the cortex, the visual area, which is in the back, and all the muscle activity is coordinated in the cerebellum under the back of the brain itself.
All very educational, thank you, but of course material implementation requires the use of material actions using the relevant parts of the brain and body. The big question is how the concept first “appeared” in the prefrontal cortex, and what directs all these material operations.
DAVID: Using Erectus as an example of this activity all of these areas were involved in simpler implementation activities in previous earlier hominins. In the skull fossil series, the primary enlarging region is not these. It is the prefrontal cortex where conceptual design takes place and which is the primary enlargement area.
What do you mean by “takes place”? Does the prefrontal cortex invent the design, or is it invented by the s/s/c?
DAVID: Recognize that the s/s/c has been shown to interface in specific areas. Materialism has a role to play. My theory is not a contradiction but a careful analysis of these facts. Your approach is all theory, not recognizing how the brain works. A larger more complex prefrontal cortex permits the development of more complex concepts. Artefacts prove it.
What do you mean by “permits”? Does the prefrontal cortex write out a licence for the s/s/c? Even if you visualize the s/s/c sitting inside the prefrontal cortex doing its thinking, you also believe that when the prefrontal cortex is dead, the s/s/c simply pops off to the other world and continues to do its thinking (as per NDEs). But I am not against your implied materialism. I remain neutral in the battle between dualism and materialism. So back to my question above: in your dualist’s opinion, what came up with the concept of the spear: the s/s/c or the prefrontal cortex?
For further pertinent questions, see “Big Brain Evolution”.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Tuesday, March 06, 2018, 17:54 (2454 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Can you tell me what part of the brain is used in the implementation of making the spear after the concept appears in the pre-frontal cortex? I can, and it is a point you skip over. To make the flint tip, the stone must be shaped by the hands and arm. The wooden shaft must be obtained by walking in the woods, finding a likely branch, stripping it of bark ( by hand) and then attaching it to the tip. Learning to throw it involves coordination of arm and shoulder muscles with twisting of the spine muscles. It also involves the eyes helping the coordination in learning to throw with aim. The implementation uses the motor strip of the brain, which is in the middle of the cortex, the visual area, which is in the back, and all the muscle activity is coordinated in the cerebellum under the back of the brain itself.dhw: All very educational, thank you, but of course material implementation requires the use of material actions using the relevant parts of the brain and body. The big question is how the concept first “appeared” in the prefrontal cortex, and what directs all these material operations.
Note you have claimed implementation enlarges the brain, but what I have presented in describing areas of the brain and what they do and I have shown you implementation occurs in areas that did not enlarge as the frontal cortex did. The cerebellum controls muscular coordination, which is the conductor of implementation. It was already enlarged in Erectus. The 'big question' is not your subterfuge about concepts. You know full well the s/s/c is interfaced there. The issue of my presentation is what implements new concepts and it shows your theory of enlargement has no basis in how the brain functions.
DAVID: Using Erectus as an example of this activity all of these areas were involved in simpler implementation activities in previous earlier hominins. In the skull fossil series, the primary enlarging region is not these. It is the prefrontal cortex where conceptual design takes place and which is the primary enlargement area.dhw: What do you mean by “takes place”? Does the prefrontal cortex invent the design, or is it invented by the s/s/c?
Again ignoring my point.
DAVID: Recognize that the s/s/c has been shown to interface in specific areas. Materialism has a role to play. My theory is not a contradiction but a careful analysis of these facts. Your approach is all theory, not recognizing how the brain works. A larger more complex prefrontal cortex permits the development of more complex concepts. Artefacts prove it.dhw: What do you mean by “permits”? Does the prefrontal cortex write out a licence for the s/s/c? Even if you visualize the s/s/c sitting inside the prefrontal cortex doing its thinking, you also believe that when the prefrontal cortex is dead, the s/s/c simply pops off to the other world and continues to do its thinking (as per NDEs). But I am not against your implied materialism. I remain neutral in the battle between dualism and materialism. So back to my question above: in your dualist’s opinion, what came up with the concept of the spear: the s/s/c or the prefrontal cortex?
Again ignoring the main point of my presentation about the brain. Answered above, as you well know.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Wednesday, March 07, 2018, 12:01 (2453 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Note you have claimed implementation enlarges the brain, but what I have presented in describing areas of the brain and what they do and I have shown you implementation occurs in areas that did not enlarge as the frontal cortex did. The cerebellum controls muscular coordination, which is the conductor of implementation. It was already enlarged in Erectus. The 'big question' is not your subterfuge about concepts. You know full well the s/s/c is interfaced there. The issue of my presentation is what implements new concepts and it shows your theory of enlargement has no basis in how the brain functions.
This would be fine (a) if you were a materialist, and (b) if we knew how the brain functions. The materialist view of brain enlargement is that it was the CAUSE of our enhanced intelligence, which is precisely what you keep arguing, since you claim that intelligence is impossible without an advanced brain – except, of course, when we are dead, and then you become a dualist again. There is no “subterfuge” in the question of concepts! All the material actions you described earlier have to be directed. If the self/soul/consciousness thought up the concept, then it will also direct the implementing areas of the brain to realize the concept. It will presumably do this through the prefrontal cortex, as its material link to the rest of the brain. (For the sake of argument, I will accept that the pfc is the only “seat” of mental activity, though I would prefer to leave that vague.) S/s/c designs concepts, and uses pfc as material means to get rest of brain and body to implement concepts. But to do this, the pre-sapiens pfc needs extra capacity. You have asked me several times how this mental exercise can enlarge the pfc, and of course I don’t know. But that is why I try to draw an analogy with muscle expansion (analogy – I am not saying they are the same). Muscles can be expanded through exercise. I suggest that the intensity of thought that accompanies new concepts can do the same to the pfc. This relationship between the thinking s/s/c and the implementing brain appears to be confirmed by NDEs, in which the s/s/c thinks independently of the functioning brain/pfc. You keep agreeing with all this, including the fact that the s/s/c plays the same thinking role in NDEs, though in a different situation, but then you revert back to the argument that the s/s/c cannot THINK without a functioning brain. That is the massive contradiction you refuse to face up to.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Wednesday, March 07, 2018, 18:09 (2453 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Note you have claimed implementation enlarges the brain, but what I have presented in describing areas of the brain and what they do and I have shown you implementation occurs in areas that did not enlarge as the frontal cortex did. The cerebellum controls muscular coordination, which is the conductor of implementation. It was already enlarged in Erectus. The 'big question' is not your subterfuge about concepts. You know full well the s/s/c is interfaced there. The issue of my presentation is what implements new concepts and it shows your theory of enlargement has no basis in how the brain functions.
dhw: This would be fine (a) if you were a materialist, and (b) if we knew how the brain functions.
But we do know the areas of brain activity that control functions of the body! For example we know the motor area where every part of the body has its represented parts of the bodies muscles. We know the smell area, the visual area, etc.
dhw: The materialist view of brain enlargement is that it was the CAUSE of our enhanced intelligence, which is precisely what you keep arguing, since you claim that intelligence is impossible without an advanced brain – except, of course, when we are dead, and then you become a dualist again.
In life we have to use the brain and its fairly specific areas. Brain, material; thoughts immaterial. Dualism in life. Dualism exists in two different circumstances.
dhw: There is no “subterfuge” in the question of concepts! All the material actions you described earlier have to be directed. If the self/soul/consciousness thought up the concept, then it will also direct the implementing areas of the brain to realize the concept. It will presumably do this through the prefrontal cortex, as its material link to the rest of the brain. (For the sake of argument, I will accept that the pfc is the only “seat” of mental activity, though I would prefer to leave that vague.) S/s/c designs concepts, and uses pfc as material means to get rest of brain and body to implement concepts. But to do this, the pre-sapiens pfc needs extra capacity. You have asked me several times how this mental exercise can enlarge the pfc, and of course I don’t know.
Once the cortex using the s/s/c conceives of a flint tip idea, which may involve complexification of the neuronal web and shrinkage of the cortex, implementation involves eye hand coordination with teaching the muscles and arm in hammering and shaping, a job which is controlled in the cerebellum. The cerebellum was enlarged to its present size back in
Erectus times. No evidence for your theory.
dhw: But that is why I try to draw an analogy with muscle expansion (analogy – I am not saying they are the same). Muscles can be expanded through exercise. I suggest that the intensity of thought that accompanies new concepts can do the same to the pfc. This relationship between the thinking s/s/c and the implementing brain appears to be confirmed by NDEs, in which the s/s/c thinks independently of the functioning brain/pfc. You keep agreeing with all this, including the fact that the s/s/c plays the same thinking role in NDEs, though in a different situation, but then you revert back to the argument that the s/s/c cannot THINK without a functioning brain. That is the massive contradiction you refuse to face up to.
Again you are putting together two different circumstances for the s/s/c. Life and death seem quite different to me. Therefore, the s/s/c interacts differently in each realm. Your debate ploy doesn't work.
Brain complexity: brain adaptation to a new task
by David Turell , Monday, March 12, 2018, 23:11 (2448 days ago) @ David Turell
Basically it takes time for the brain to fully adjust:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-03-brain-flexible-thought.html
"The new research finds that, when learning a new task, the brain is less flexible than previously thought.
***
"'In this experimental paradigm, we're able to track all of the neurons that can lead to behavioral improvements and look at how they all change simultaneously," says Steve Chase, an associate professor of biomedical engineering at Carnegie Mellon and the Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition. "When we do that, what we see is a really constrained set of changes that happen, and it leads to this suboptimal improvement of performance. And so, that implies that there are limits that constrain how flexible your brain is, at least on these short time scales."
"When we're learning a new task, we can't instantaneously learn it to proficiency, in part due to the way in which the neurons are wired up in the brain. Learning takes time, and there are mechanisms by which neurons can change the way they communicate with each other to enable learning—some of which can be fast, and some of which can take longer. The team found that the brain operates under a more stringent set of constraints than originally thought, resulting in good learning on the short term, but nevertheless suboptimal performance in controlling the BCI cursor.
***
"'Just as it takes time to train a person to swing a squash racket like an expert, it takes time to train one's neurons to produce the ideal activity patterns," says Byron Yu, associate professor of biomedical engineering and electrical and computer engineering at Carnegie Mellon. "When faced with a new task, we're finding that the brain is constrained to take the neural activity patterns that it's capable of generating right now and use them as effectively as possible in this new task."
"'When we learn, at first the brain tends to not produce new activity patterns, but to repurpose the activity patterns it already knows how to generate," says Aaron Batista, an associate professor in the Department of Bioengineering at the University of Pittsburgh. "Learning over the course of a few hours is suboptimal. When first learning something new, our brain doesn't seem to be able to change its activity in the best possible way to allow us to be proficient at new skills.."
"Acquiring a skill is very difficult, and it takes a lot of time and a lot of practice. But when you're first starting to learn a new skill, your brain has to adjust quickly to the new task. The researchers found that the brain is constrained to take neural activity patterns it already knows and use them for the new task. By repurposing neuron patterns the brain is already capable of generating, the brain applies a "quick and dirty fix" to the new problem it's facing.
"'None of us predicted this outcome," says Matthew Golub, a postdoctoral researcher in electrical and computer engineering at Carnegie Mellon. "Learning is far more limited on the scale of a few hours than any of us were expecting when we started this. We were all surprised that the brain wasn't able to choose the best strategy possible."
Comment: It is amazing that the brain has a built-in design change mechanism. It is obvious the brain had to designed for this ability. Not by chance.
Brain complexity: different regions function the same?
by David Turell , Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 22:40 (2447 days ago) @ David Turell
The brain has been mapped to isolate different functional areas, but this paper wonders if they operate in all the same fashion:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2018/03/09/what-does-part-of-brain-do/#....
"How can we know the function of a region of the brain? Have we been approaching the problem in the wrong way?
"According to Genon et al., neuroscientists have generally approached the brain from the standpoint of behavior. We ask: what is the neural basis of this behavioral or psychological function?
"Traditionally, assigning functions to brain regions has mainly been based on conceptualizations of functions from many different disciplines that are interested in the study of the mind and behavior… ‘speech production’, ‘perspective taking’, and ‘emotional regulation’ are a few examples of these behavioral functions.
"This “behavior-first” approach has revealed many associations between particular functions and particular brain regions. However, Genon et al. say, it has become clear that any given behavioral function involves more than one brain region, and it may be that there is no ‘necessary and sufficient brain area’ for any behavioral function.
"So, the authors say, we may need to adopt a “brain region-first” perspective. Instead of looking for the neural basis of a behavior, we should instead be asking: what does this brain region do? What functions is it involved in?
"For any brain region, we can think of many different behavioral functions, based on the perspective from which we consider this brain region. In practice, most of these behavioral functions can somehow be related to one another and seem to comprise a core computational function (i.e., an operation-function) that grounds all behavioral associations but remains latent and is not directly observed.
"In other words, any brain region will be involved in many functions, but by triangulating between them we can (hopefully) arrive at the true core function of the region:
Our current knowledge of the functional specialization of a given brain region can be conceptualized as a polyhedron with its many sides (i.e., many behavioral functions), the sum of which can only be appreciated by investigation from many different perspectives, but whose core center remains intangible.
"Genon et al. say that tools like NeuroSynth are ideal for helping us to map out these polyhedra. NeuroSynth is a database of published fMRI studies and it allows us to adopt a “brain region first” analysis: we can select a brain region and see what kinds of tasks and stimuli have been known to activate that region (although with many caveats). BrainMap is a similar tool.
"This is a fascinating paper. I wonder, however, whether we might end up discovering that all brain regions – or at least, the bulk of the cerebral cortex – have the same core cognitive function? It might be that most of the cortical ‘modules’ are actually doing the same kind of processing, but operating on different inputs.
"To give a simple example, a brain area which mainly gets auditory input will light up in response to different stimuli compared to one that gets visual input, but they might be doing the same basic operations on the input. I don’t think anyone knows, yet, whether different cortical areas are truly doing different computations."
Comment: We know general areas such as speech, hearing vision, memory, etc. But the brain must work as a whole with varying parts interacting. Do input areas (auditory, vision) or export areas (writing speech) work the same as theoretical concept areas? A neuron may be specialized, but they all must work in a similar fashion. we don't anything about this area of potential research. For example, I have no idea where my personality is hidden but I assume pre-frontal cortex. We do know the brain is very cooperative in responding to our mental needs, but that is superficial knowledge compared to the questions being asked.
Brain complexity: different regions function the same?
by dhw, Wednesday, March 14, 2018, 11:08 (2447 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: The brain has been mapped to isolate different functional areas, but this paper wonders if they operate in all the same fashion:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2018/03/09/what-does-part-of-brain-do/#....
QUOTES: "How can we know the function of a region of the brain? Have we been approaching the problem in the wrong way?"
“…it may be that there is no ‘necessary and sufficient brain area’ for any behavioral function.”
"This is a fascinating paper. I wonder, however, whether we might end up discovering that all brain regions – or at least, the bulk of the cerebral cortex – have the same core cognitive function? It might be that most of the cortical ‘modules’ are actually doing the same kind of processing, but operating on different inputs."
DAVID’s comment: We know general areas such as speech, hearing vision, memory, etc. But the brain must work as a whole with varying parts interacting. Do input areas (auditory, vision) or export areas (writing speech) work the same as theoretical concept areas? A neuron may be specialized, but they all must work in a similar fashion. we don't anything about this area of potential research. For example, I have no idea where my personality is hidden but I assume pre-frontal cortex. We do know the brain is very cooperative in responding to our mental needs, but that is superficial knowledge compared to the questions being asked.
Thank you for this illuminating article. I have always been reluctant to accept the rigid pigeon-holing of brain areas, especially in relation to cognition. My own view is that the brain is a community of cells cooperating with one another and with the other cell communities of the body. Whether the material communities produce the personality/self/soul/consciousness (materialistic collective thinking) or there is an immaterial s/s/c that uses and directs the material communities is the core of the debate between materialists and dualists.
Brain complexity: different region for thirst
by David Turell , Wednesday, March 14, 2018, 13:36 (2446 days ago) @ dhw
Many of the automatic regions controlling reactions to stimuli like thirst are grouped on the underside around or in the hypothalamus:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/the-thirst-centre-of-the-brain
"It seems simple enough: an animal feels thirsty, it drinks some water, it stops feeling thirsty. Though this unremarkable sequence of events is probably familiar to any of the billions upon billions of animals that populate the Earth, scientists are only now closing in on the neural circuitry that translates a lack of water in the body into the inescapable urge to drink.
"The part of the brain that senses and regulates the body’s internal water balance is called the lamina terminalis. It has three connected subregions – the subfornical organ (SFO), the organum vasculosum lamina terminalis (OVLT) and the median preoptic nucleus (MnPO).
"Recent research in mice has shown that dehydration triggers activity in the SFO, which then activates the MnPO, which in turn appears to instigate drinking behaviour. When the body’s fluid levels return to normal, the MnPO sends a signal back to the SFO that makes the thirst disappear. By stimulating and deactivating certain neurons in these parts of the brain, researchers confirmed the link."
Comment: The brain is compartmentalized into functional regions, but is fully interconnected. we recognize we are thirsty in the frontal cortex.
Brain complexity: signal controls between regions
by David Turell , Thursday, March 22, 2018, 18:47 (2438 days ago) @ David Turell
There are both excitatory and inhibitory neurons:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-03-propagation-consciousness-potential.html
"For us to navigate through everyday situations, it is critical that electrical signals from our senses stimulated by the external world are able to reach relevant brain areas," explains Xiao-Jing Wang, Global Professor of Neural Science at NYU and the paper's senior author. "Our brain, however, is a very complicated system, with billions of neurons organized in an interconnected network with more than a hundred areas. It is therefore not easy to understand how signals may travel from area to area in an efficient manner."
"Brain areas tend to be organized in a hierarchy, ranging from "lower" sensory areas to "higher" cognitive areas. These areas have excitatory and inhibitory neurons, which either stimulate or suppress activity in other neurons.
"Understanding how neural signals are transmitted across this hierarchy, the researchers note, is still a fundamental challenge in neuroscience and served as the focal point for the Neuron study.
"For us to navigate through everyday situations, it is critical that electrical signals from our senses stimulated by the external world are able to reach relevant brain areas," explains Xiao-Jing Wang, Global Professor of Neural Science at NYU and the paper's senior author. "Our brain, however, is a very complicated system, with billions of neurons organized in an interconnected network with more than a hundred areas. It is therefore not easy to understand how signals may travel from area to area in an efficient manner."
"Brain areas tend to be organized in a hierarchy, ranging from "lower" sensory areas to "higher" cognitive areas. These areas have excitatory and inhibitory neurons, which either stimulate or suppress activity in other neurons.
"Understanding how neural signals are transmitted across this hierarchy, the researchers note, is still a fundamental challenge in neuroscience and served as the focal point for the Neuron study."
Comment: It simply shows that as in other organs there are feedback controls, just adding to the complexity of our brain.
Brain complexity: feedback systems
by David Turell , Monday, April 16, 2018, 20:24 (2413 days ago) @ David Turell
Studies of the brain show reverse connections that are now understood:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-04-scientists-hidden-enigmatic-neural.html
"For decades, the neuroscience community has been baffled by the existence of dense connections in the brain that seem to be going "backwards." These connections, which span extensively across distant areas of the neocortex, are clearly conveying important information. But until now, the organization of the connections, and therefore their possible role, was largely unknown.
"scientists at the Champalimaud Centre for the Unknown in Lisbon report for the first time that these connections form an exquisitely organised map of the visual space and provide important insights into how they may be involved in visual perception.
***
"'Hidden in the tangle of wires we found that there is a beautiful organisation, where feedback connections target specific neurons in lower structures depending on the signals they carry."
***
"'In many separate structures of the visual system, beginning with the eye itself, neighboring neurons encode neighboring areas of the visual space. This way, the individual structures contain an almost one-to-one map of the image," Marques explains.
"This map exists in the primary visual cortex (also called V1), which is the entry point of visual information to the neocortex. This was the researchers' starting point. They asked: whether feedback connections matched the visual map encoded in V1.
"'The majority of feedback inputs formed the same spatial map as the areas they connected to in V1. In other words, the V1 and feedback maps were superimposed on each other. This observation had already been reported in other species, such as primates, so we weren't surprised. However, in the mouse, we also observed something new. The feedback connections also encoded information from further locations in the visual space.
***
"'The world is made up of objects," Petreanu explains. "The phone in your hand, the cars on the road, these are all objects that are defined by continuous lines. Therefore, it's not surprising that neurons in the visual system care a lot about these lines."
"How could feedback connections help accentuate the lines that make up objects? There are two possibilities—they can either amplify the activity in V1 where the lines are, or they can dampen activity where they are not supposed to be.
"We found that the second option is the most likely to be true," says Petreanu. "The feedback connections were abundant in V1 in areas outside the lines. We therefore hypothesise that this organisation is probably silencing neurons in the areas that lie outside the line, and thereby enhancing the contrast between objects and their surroundings."
"Next, the researchers asked whether feedback connections might participate in motion detection. To their surprise, they found not only that they do, but that they use the same strategy to do it. "This time, the visual feature was different, but the feedback connections played the same role," says Marques. "We observed that feedback connections that respond to moving objects were enriched in V1 in regions opposite to the direction of movement."
"'We believe that these results imply that this set of feedback connections learn through experience what to expect from the world and then use this knowledge to shape incoming visual information," says Petreanu. "In the world, objects are defined by continuous lines, not scattered dots, and moving objects tend to maintain their trajectory, not move around randomly. So feedback connections try to accentuate these particular features that they have learned to anticipate. Surprisingly, they do so by pointing to locations that are opposite to the expected ones."
"The results of Petreanu and Marques provide an important piece of the puzzle of how the neocortex is organized and suggest how visual perception could be generated in the brain. "
Comment: The complexity of this feedback system reeks of resign.
Brain complexity: memory formation
by David Turell , Friday, April 27, 2018, 18:06 (2402 days ago) @ David Turell
Enlarging synapses is part of the process:
https://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/52441/title/Learning-Enhances-Sy...
"When making memories, certain neurons form larger, denser connections, according to a study published today (April 26).
***
"In the study, Kaang and his team first injected the recombinant DNA into the hippocampus, a key brain area involved in memory formation, of mice. Then, the team used a fear-conditioning experiment to teach the rodents to associate a specific environment with an electric shock.
"When probing the animals’ brains under a microscope, the researchers observed that synapses between engram cells were enhanced. Dendrites, the neuronal projections that synapses form on, between engram cells were denser and larger than those between engram cells and non-engram cells, or between two non-engram cells. In addition, when the team compared mice that had been exposed to weak versus strong electric shocks, they found synaptic connectivity was stronger in mice receiving stronger shocks.
“'What’s very nice is they showed that the difference between the weak and strong memory is not that strong memories recruit more neurons,” says Sadegh Nabavi, a neuroscientist at Aarhus University in Denmark who did not take part in the study. “The number of neurons is similar, [but] the difference is that the synapses have larger sizes, higher density, and bigger diameters.”
"According to Wiltgen, this study “advances previous work by showing that small groups of hippocampal neurons ‘wire together’ during learning to form new memories.” He adds that the new work, along with other studies, “shows that many of our ideas about memory generalize to the real world.”
"Tomás Ryan, a neuroscientist at Trinity College Dublin in Ireland who also didn’t take part in this study, notes that while this is the first experiment that has labeled the specific synaptic inputs from engram and non-engram cells, prior work, including his own, has shown that new synaptic connections form between engram cells, and it’s that process that underlies memory formation."
Comment: The study shows how the brain responds to work of the s/s/c in memory formation. When we remember something, we must be able to find where it is stored in the brain. This shows the interdependence of brain and s/s/c.
Brain complexity: observed memory formation
by David Turell , Thursday, May 03, 2018, 22:39 (2396 days ago) @ David Turell
In mice watching other mice, they use their brain to record it and it is used in avoidance later:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-05-scientists-neural-interactions.html
" If you saw a friend get chased by a neighborhood dog, for instance, you would learn to stay away from the dog without having to undergo that experience yourself.
This kind of learning, known as observational learning,
***
"Previous brain-scanning studies in humans suggested that two parts of the brain known as the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC) and basolateral amygdala (BLA) are active when we learn by watching others. The ACC is involved in evaluating social information, among other functions, and the BLA plays a key role in processing emotions. However, it was unknown how these regions interact to learn from others' experiences.
***
"Once the researchers demonstrated that the mice had learned to connect the cue and the shock simply by watching other mice, they set out to figure out what was happening in the ACC and BLA as the observer mice learned to make the association. They recorded electrical activity in both regions as the mice watched the fear conditioning process, then performed a new type of analysis called neural trajectory analysis, which reveals how neurons change their firing rates as a behavior is learned.
"This analysis, performed by study author and MIT graduate student Chia-Jung Chang, showed that the ACC becomes much more active as the mouse witnesses another mouse's experience. It then relays information about the experience to the BLA, which uses it to form an association between the cue and the shock.
"'The anterior cingulate is transmitting that there is important information to extract from the demonstrator," Tye says. "It's translating socially derived information and sending it to the BLA to assign predictive value there."
"In later experiments, the researchers identified specific neurons in the ACC that connect directly with neurons in the BLA. When they blocked those connections during the observational learning task, the mice did not learn to fear the cue.
"When the researchers blocked the ACC-to-BLA connection in mice that were receiving shocks paired with a tone, there was no effect on the observer mouse's ability to connect the cue with the shock, offering further evidence that this circuit is specifically involved in learning from others.
"'If the animal is having the experience subjectively, it doesn't have to extract information from another animal," Tye says. "That's what allowed us to conclude that the anterior cingulate is providing socially derived information."
"The researchers also showed that the ACC is necessary for more general types of social behavior, such as interacting with a nonthreatening juvenile mouse. ACC input to the BLA is also necessary for learning to fear an aggressive mouse after seeing it interact with another mouse."
Comment: we have evolved from lower animals and they are conscious, but without our consciousness. Our s/s/c has followed these routes of brain connections as we have developed more thinking mind areas. It just shows how the s/s/c interlocks with brain networks.
Brain complexity: automatic reaction to lower pH
by David Turell , Saturday, May 05, 2018, 20:05 (2394 days ago) @ David Turell
A neuron receptor adapts to work in lower pH ranges during damage to the brain:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-05-variation-key-brain-receptor-enables.html
"During a stroke or an epileptic seizure, neurons in affected parts of the brain fire at an abnormally rapid rate. One byproduct of this condition is that the pH of the brain drops markedly, rendering the local environment inhospitably acidic.
"Using a powerful microscopy method called cryo-EM, biologists at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory (CSHL) have discovered how one key element of brain physiology, a docking port for excitatory neurotransmitters called the NMDA receptor, is able to function in this hostile environment.
***
"NMDA receptors sit on the membrane of excitatory neurons, where they form pores and control electrical signals by "gating" the flow of electrically charged atoms, or ions, in and out. NMDA receptors are active when the brain is learning and forming new memories. Malfunctions of the receptor are thought to be involved in a range of illnesses including neurodegenerative diseases, pain, depression and schizophrenia.
"Furukawa's team shows how NMDA receptors can vary slightly in their protein makeup thanks to a cellular mechanism called alternative splicing—a process that enables a single gene to generate distinct variants of a single protein. One "splice variant" of the receptor that is present in the brain turns out to be less sensitive than other versions to an acidic environment.
"The NMDA receptor is what scientists call a tetramer - think of it as a tube composed of four proteins that connects the inside of a neuron with the outside environment. The four proteins are intertwined in such a way that they leave an open space running through their center - the ion channel.
"The four proteins of the receptor come in two sets of two - "subunits" called GluN1 and GluN2. Furukawa's team imaged a variant of the receptor in which a portion of the GluN1 subunit is altered slightly. This alteration changes the architecture of the receptor, by drawing the GluN1 and GluN2 subunits into a tighter embrace. This, in turn, alters an interface with a part of the larger structure where a pH sensor is located.
"The result is that the entire receptor becomes less sensitive to changes in pH. "We've learned from nature how this receptor is able to remain intact and function when the environment turns hostile," says Furukawa. "Research like this informs efforts to create therapeutics that address malfunctions in this important receptor.'"
Comment: One must wonder whether this mechanism was designed in advance of any possible brain damage in order to minimize the size of permanent damage. It is obviously automatic in its action.
Brain complexity: study results very incomplete
by David Turell , Friday, May 25, 2018, 19:48 (2374 days ago) @ David Turell
The critics point out that we really don't know much about the brain, because its overall activity is ignored when studying specific areas, and the whole brain is generally always active:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/neuroscience-critics-learn-how-brain-waves-link-to-speec...
"Poeppel and his co-authors carried on this tradition in a paper that appeared in Neuron last year. In it, they review ways in which overreliance on the “compelling” tools for manipulating and measuring the brain can lead scientists astray. Many types of experiments, for example, try to map specific patterns of neural activity to specific behaviors — by showing, say, that when a rat is choosing which way to run in a maze, neurons fire more often in a certain area of the brain. But those experiments could easily overlook what’s happening in the rest of the brain when the rat is making that choice, which might be just as relevant. Or they could miss that the neurons fire in the same way when the rat is stressed, so maybe it has nothing to do with making a choice. Worst of all, the experiment could ultimately be meaningless if the studied behavior doesn’t accurately reflect anything that happens naturally: A rat navigating a laboratory maze may be in a completely different mental state than one squirming through holes in the wild, so generalizing from the results is risky. Good experimental designs can go only so far to remedy these problems.
"The common rebuttal to his criticism is that the huge advances that neuroscience has made are largely because of the kinds of studies he faults. Poeppel acknowledges this but maintains that neuroscience would know more about complex cognitive and emotional phenomena (rather than neural and genomic minutiae) if research started more often with a systematic analysis of the goals behind relevant behaviors, rather than jumping to manipulations of the neurons involved in their production. If nothing else, that analysis could help to target the research in productive ways.
***
"The auditory and speech motor activities did stay entrained, but only up to about 5 hertz. Once the audio changed faster than spoken language typically does, the motor cortex dropped out of sync. A computational model later confirmed that these results were consistent with the idea that the motor cortex has its own internal oscillator that naturally operates at around 4 to 5 hertz.
"These complex results vindicate the researchers’ behavior-linked approach in several ways, according to Poeppel and Assaneo. Their equipment monitors 160 channels in the brain at sampling rates down to 1 hertz; it produces so much neurophysiological data that if they had simply looked for correlations in it, they would have undoubtedly found spurious ones. Only by starting with information drawn from linguistics and language behavior — the observation that there is something special about signals in the 4-to-5-hertz range because they show up in all spoken languages — did the researchers know to narrow their search for meaningful data to that range. And the specific interactions of the auditory and motor cortices they found are so nuanced that the researchers would never have thought to look for those on their own."
Comment: The point is we need to look more at whole brain studies, not just specific areas.
Brain complexity: study results very incomplete
by dhw, Saturday, May 26, 2018, 11:18 (2374 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: The critics point out that we really don't know much about the brain, because its overall activity is ignored when studying specific areas, and the whole brain is generally always active:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/neuroscience-critics-learn-how-brain-waves-link-to-speec...
DAVID’s comment: The point is we need to look more at whole brain studies, not just specific areas.
In my THEORY OF INTELLIGENCE, the immaterial self arises out of the cooperation between the different, intelligent cell communities that make up the brain, analogous to the complexities of the ant world, where whole cities and societies arise from cooperation between intelligent individuals. I agree completely with your comment: we need to study how the different cell communities of the brain cooperate, though ideally the study should expand to the whole body, since we do not know the extent to which ALL our cell communities influence one another.
Brain complexity: study results very incomplete
by David Turell , Saturday, May 26, 2018, 15:05 (2373 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: The critics point out that we really don't know much about the brain, because its overall activity is ignored when studying specific areas, and the whole brain is generally always active:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/neuroscience-critics-learn-how-brain-waves-link-to-speec...DAVID’s comment: The point is we need to look more at whole brain studies, not just specific areas.
dhw: In my THEORY OF INTELLIGENCE, the immaterial self arises out of the cooperation between the different, intelligent cell communities that make up the brain, analogous to the complexities of the ant world, where whole cities and societies arise from cooperation between intelligent individuals. I agree completely with your comment: we need to study how the different cell communities of the brain cooperate, though ideally the study should expand to the whole body, since we do not know the extent to which ALL our cell communities influence one another.
How our whole body cooperates is shown in study of the autonomic system which quietly operates under the surface while we live our lives without noticing it. How often do you think about breathing? Sweating? You may even be annoyed over having to stop and relieve yourself.
Brain complexity: neuron control of learning/memory
by David Turell , Thursday, July 05, 2018, 23:00 (2333 days ago) @ David Turell
When a fact is learned it is placed in memory in the hippocampus:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-07-brain-cell.html
"The researchers have now found certain neurons in the brain that play a crucial part in learning. The same research group had previously discovered "gatekeeper" cells or, in technical parlance, Oriens-lacunosum moleculare (OLM) cells. These are located in the hippocampus, the brain area known to be active in forming new memories. The new findings from Klas Kullander's research group show that OLM cell activity affects the encoding of memories in the brain.
"When the OLM cells were overactivated in experiments on laboratory mice, their memory and learning functions deteriorated. When these cells were inactivated instead, the function of new memory formation improved. This research has enhanced understanding of how a single component in the memory circuits can affect memory formation.
"We had expected to be able to impair learning, since it seemed likely that the effect of our experiment at the cellular level would disturb the normal function of the nervous system. However, we were surprised to find that learning and memory also could be improved," says Klas Kullander.
Comment: Bit by bit scientists are finding where all functions of the mind are found in the brain. In my view the self/soul is the driver of the mental processes by using the brain networks.
Brain complexity: neuron control of learning/memory
by dhw, Friday, July 06, 2018, 10:39 (2333 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID’s comment: Bit by bit scientists are finding where all functions of the mind are found in the brain. In my view the self/soul is the driver of the mental processes by using the brain networks.
Yes, that is the difference between materialism and dualism. One says the brain fulfils all the functions of the mind, and the other claims that there is a separate mind or soul which drives the brain. There is evidence for both, which is why we have a dichotomy.
Brain complexity: neuron control of learning/memory
by David Turell , Friday, July 06, 2018, 20:09 (2332 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID’s comment: Bit by bit scientists are finding where all functions of the mind are found in the brain. In my view the self/soul is the driver of the mental processes by using the brain networks.
dhw: Yes, that is the difference between materialism and dualism. One says the brain fulfils all the functions of the mind, and the other claims that there is a separate mind or soul which drives the brain. There is evidence for both, which is why we have a dichotomy.
But more than driving I feel the soul must use the brain networks to form and complete all thought
Brain complexity: memory formation
by David Turell , Monday, August 26, 2019, 23:55 (1916 days ago) @ David Turell
Special proteins joining with actin which is part of almost all cells:
https://phys.org/news/2019-08-scientists-advance-memory-molecular-roots.html
"A new piece of a difficult puzzle—the nature of memory—fell into place this week with a hint at how brain cells change structure when they learn something.
"Interactions between three moving parts—a binding protein, a structural protein and calcium—are part of the process by which electrical signals enter neural cells and remodel the molecular structures thought to enable cognition and the storage of memories.
"Colleagues from Rice University, the University of Houston (UH) and The University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston (UTHealth) combined theories, simulations and experiments to determine how a central binding protein—calcium-calmodulin-dependent kinase II (CaMKII)—binds and unbinds from the cytoskeleton of a neuron.
"The team's report in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences gives the first clear details of how the binding sites of CaMKII act to align actin filaments—the structural protein—into long, rigid bundles. The bundles serve as the supporting skeletons of dendritic spines, spiky protrusions that receive chemical messages through synapses from other neurons.
***
"When combined with the actin that makes up the cytoskeleton, the system also became the largest protein Wolynes and his team have analyzed via their protein-structure prediction program, AWSEM.
"When they were done, the structure predicted by the computer was a remarkable match for two-dimensional electron microscope images by Waxham and his group that clearly show parallel actin filaments are held together, ladder-like, by rungs of CaMKII.
"'There definitely are preliminary chemical steps involving the enzyme activity of CaMKII before you get to this stage; therefore, we don't have a completely clear picture of how to put everything together," Wolynes said. "But it's clear the assembly of the complex is the key step where chemistry turns into a larger-scale structure that can hold a memory."
"CaMKII is uniquely suited to interact with actin, the most abundant protein in eukaryotic cells and one that has special abilities in neurons, where it not only has to give thousands of dendrites (in each of billions of neurons) their resting forms but also must give them a level of plasticity to adapt to a constant barrage of signals.
"Actin molecules self-assemble into long, twisting filaments. The hydrophobic pockets between these molecules are perfectly configured to bind CaMKII, a large protein with multiple parts, or domains. These domains lock in to three consecutive binding sites on the filament, and the twists put binding sites at regular intervals to keep the proteins from piling up.
"CaMKII's "association" domain is a six-fold subunit that also binds to adjacent filaments to form actin bundles, the backbones of dendritic spines that give these protrusions their shapes.
"These bundles remain rigid if the dendrite contains little calcium. But when calcium ions enter through the synapse, they combine with calmodulin proteins, allowing them to bind to another part of CaMKII, the floppy regulatory domain. That triggers the disassociation of a domain of CaMKII from the filament, followed by the rest of the protein, opening a short window of time during which the bundles can reconfigure.
"'When enough calcium comes in, the activated calmodulin breaks up these structures, but only for a while," Wolynes said. "Then the cytoskeleton reforms. During that time, the dendritic spine can take on a different shape that might be bigger."
***
"The team's calculations showed the association domain is responsible for about 40% of the protein's binding strength to actin. A linker domain adds another 40% and the crucial regulatory domain provides the final 20%—a sensible strategy, since the regulatory domain is on the lookout for incoming calcium-calmodulins that can unzip the entire protein from the filament."
Comment: Only partially understood, but the research field has revealed the underlying very complex proteins which hold the key. Look at the diagrams of this enormous molecular structure. Not put together by chance.
Brain complexity: memory formation
by dhw, Tuesday, August 27, 2019, 09:51 (1916 days ago) @ David Turell
Thank you for the articles on deep Earth life, plants control breathing, proteins that maintain cell shape and memory function. Your conclusion that they all provide evidence of design seems fair enough to me. It is perfectly logical that all life forms must find means of adapting to or exploiting their environment if they are to survive, but how they all acquired this ability is the great mystery, and I can well understand your belief that a designer designed it.
Although I can’t follow all the scientific stuff on this particularly thread, I’m very interested in the “hint at how brain cells change structure when they learn something”. This is a known fact (we had various examples earlier of the illiterate women learning to read, and of taxi drivers’ and musicians’ brains undergoing such changes). The obvious implication is that the brain does not change before the arrival of new activities but in response to them. Thus one can well imagine that the first pre-humans to leave the trees (for whatever reason) and the first pre-whales to enter the water would not only have adapted their bodies to the new environment but would also have undergone brain change as a result of these new conditions and the need to adjust their behaviour. In the case of pre-humans, so great was the number of new things to be learned that the existing capacity would not have been large enough to cope – hence expansion of the brain: not the result of random mutations or of divine dabbling, but of the brain cell communities responding to new requirements. Just a hypothesis, of course.
Brain complexity: memory formation
by David Turell , Tuesday, August 27, 2019, 16:11 (1915 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Thank you for the articles on deep Earth life, plants control breathing, proteins that maintain cell shape and memory function. Your conclusion that they all provide evidence of design seems fair enough to me. It is perfectly logical that all life forms must find means of adapting to or exploiting their environment if they are to survive, but how they all acquired this ability is the great mystery, and I can well understand your belief that a designer designed it.
Although I can’t follow all the scientific stuff on this particularly thread, I’m very interested in the “hint at how brain cells change structure when they learn something”. This is a known fact (we had various examples earlier of the illiterate women learning to read, and of taxi drivers’ and musicians’ brains undergoing such changes). The obvious implication is that the brain does not change before the arrival of new activities but in response to them. Thus one can well imagine that the first pre-humans to leave the trees (for whatever reason) and the first pre-whales to enter the water would not only have adapted their bodies to the new environment but would also have undergone brain change as a result of these new conditions and the need to adjust their behaviour. In the case of pre-humans, so great was the number of new things to be learned that the existing capacity would not have been large enough to cope – hence expansion of the brain: not the result of random mutations or of divine dabbling, but of the brain cell communities responding to new requirements. Just a hypothesis, of course.
Of course current brain cells have a great deal of plasticity, bu that capacity had to have been designed into the current brain by some process. For me only a designing mind fits.
Brain complexity: memory formation
by dhw, Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 08:10 (1915 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Although I can’t follow all the scientific stuff on this particularly thread, I’m very interested in the “hint at how brain cells change structure when they learn something”. This is a known fact (we had various examples earlier of the illiterate women learning to read, and of taxi drivers’ and musicians’ brains undergoing such changes). The obvious implication is that the brain does not change before the arrival of new activities but in response to them. Thus one can well imagine that the first pre-humans to leave the trees (for whatever reason) and the first pre-whales to enter the water would not only have adapted their bodies to the new environment but would also have undergone brain change as a result of these new conditions and the need to adjust their behaviour. In the case of pre-humans, so great was the number of new things to be learned that the existing capacity would not have been large enough to cope – hence expansion of the brain: not the result of random mutations or of divine dabbling, but of the brain cell communities responding to new requirements. Just a hypothesis, of course.
DAVID: Of course current brain cells have a great deal of plasticity, but that capacity had to have been designed into the current brain by some process. For me only a designing mind fits.
I don’t have a problem with that argument. My point was that if learning changes the structure of the brain, clearly the learning precedes the changes, which is why I suggest that the whole history of brain structure, including expansion, just like that of other organs, has come about through the cells’ responses to new situations, conditions etc. This proposal is in contrast to Darwin’s random mutations and to your own theory that your God made all the changes (either by preprogramming or by dabbling) before the new situations etc. arose.
Brain complexity: memory formation
by David Turell , Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 14:10 (1914 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Although I can’t follow all the scientific stuff on this particularly thread, I’m very interested in the “hint at how brain cells change structure when they learn something”. This is a known fact (we had various examples earlier of the illiterate women learning to read, and of taxi drivers’ and musicians’ brains undergoing such changes). The obvious implication is that the brain does not change before the arrival of new activities but in response to them. Thus one can well imagine that the first pre-humans to leave the trees (for whatever reason) and the first pre-whales to enter the water would not only have adapted their bodies to the new environment but would also have undergone brain change as a result of these new conditions and the need to adjust their behaviour. In the case of pre-humans, so great was the number of new things to be learned that the existing capacity would not have been large enough to cope – hence expansion of the brain: not the result of random mutations or of divine dabbling, but of the brain cell communities responding to new requirements. Just a hypothesis, of course.
DAVID: Of course current brain cells have a great deal of plasticity, but that capacity had to have been designed into the current brain by some process. For me only a designing mind fits.
dhw: I don’t have a problem with that argument. My point was that if learning changes the structure of the brain, clearly the learning precedes the changes, which is why I suggest that the whole history of brain structure, including expansion, just like that of other organs, has come about through the cells’ responses to new situations, conditions etc. This proposal is in contrast to Darwin’s random mutations and to your own theory that your God made all the changes (either by preprogramming or by dabbling) before the new situations etc. arose.
The changes we know in Indian illiterates and London cabbies alters an existing brain but does not create a species with a new brain size and capacity. I think your theory is a real stretch.
Brain complexity: memory formation
by dhw, Thursday, August 29, 2019, 10:19 (1914 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: My point was that if learning changes the structure of the brain, clearly the learning precedes the changes, which is why I suggest that the whole history of brain structure, including expansion, just like that of other organs, has come about through the cells’ responses to new situations, conditions etc. This proposal is in contrast to Darwin’s random mutations and to your own theory that your God made all the changes (either by preprogramming or by dabbling) before the new situations etc. arose.
DAVID: The changes we know in Indian illiterates and London cabbies alters an existing brain but does not create a species with a new brain size and capacity. I think your theory is a real stretch.
If you accept common descent, you will have to accept that the new brain size and capacity were the result of changes to existing brains. Since we know that learning changes the structure of the brain, it is not unreasonable to suggest that once an existing brain had reached the limits of its ability to cope with new situations (learning always involves something new to the learner), it had to increase its capacity. This too means a structural change – more cells, more connections, and an expansion of the container to house the new cells. I can’t see that this is more of a “stretch” than random mutations, or your God popping in to do a dabble before there is any need for expansion (just as you think he popped in to change the pre-whale’s legs into flippers before it entered the water). It seems perfectly logical to me that if something new causes existing structures to change now, it may have done the same throughout evolution.
Brain complexity: memory formation
by David Turell , Thursday, August 29, 2019, 19:12 (1913 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: My point was that if learning changes the structure of the brain, clearly the learning precedes the changes, which is why I suggest that the whole history of brain structure, including expansion, just like that of other organs, has come about through the cells’ responses to new situations, conditions etc. This proposal is in contrast to Darwin’s random mutations and to your own theory that your God made all the changes (either by preprogramming or by dabbling) before the new situations etc. arose.
DAVID: The changes we know in Indian illiterates and London cabbies alters an existing brain but does not create a species with a new brain size and capacity. I think your theory is a real stretch.
dhw: If you accept common descent, you will have to accept that the new brain size and capacity were the result of changes to existing brains. Since we know that learning changes the structure of the brain, it is not unreasonable to suggest that once an existing brain had reached the limits of its ability to cope with new situations (learning always involves something new to the learner), it had to increase its capacity. This too means a structural change – more cells, more connections, and an expansion of the container to house the new cells. I can’t see that this is more of a “stretch” than random mutations, or your God popping in to do a dabble before there is any need for expansion (just as you think he popped in to change the pre-whale’s legs into flippers before it entered the water). It seems perfectly logical to me that if something new causes existing structures to change now, it may have done the same throughout evolution.
I understand your problem in not accepting my approach. I do accept God as being in charge of creation and necessarily through the process of evolution. It is the only way I can explain the stepwise enlargement of the human brain.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Wednesday, July 11, 2018, 02:19 (2328 days ago) @ dhw
Changes in baby mice brains related to the Mother's care:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/early-life-experience-its-in-your-dna/?utm_s...
"The genome is the molecular signature of identity. The sequence of DNA contained in our genomes distinguishes each of us as unique individuals, and changes in that sequence are relatively rare. Genomic changes typically arise from rare errors during cell replication, or from exposure to carcinogens or radiation. Here, experience has an equally powerful capacity to change the genome, but only in cells of the brain. The care that a newborn receives in early life can have profound effects on psychological and intellectual growth. Attentive nurturing, feeding and grooming can reduce stress and anxiety and enhance psychological wellbeing. On the other hand, indifference can lead to increased anxiety and impaired psychological adjustment. This study reveals that one way the quality of early care could cause lifelong changes in behavior is by changing the brain’s genetic nature.
"In this study researchers identified natural differences in the quality and abundance of maternal care provided by mice based upon measures of time they spent grooming and nursing their pups. They identified groups of animals that provided either high or low maternal care. They then examined brains of their pups for differences in markers of genomic change.
"Many of the differences in the genomes of nerve cells are due to the presence of mobile genetic elements called retrotransposons. These are stretches of DNA that can be copied and, as the name suggests transposed or incorporated into other areas of the genome. This study measured the accumulation of these mobile genetic elements in the brain as a consequence of maternal care. Mobile genetic elements accumulated in specific regions of the brains of mouse pups if the pups had poor maternal care. If a pup was born to a mother animal that provided low maternal care, but raised by a mother animal that provided high maternal care that accumulation of mobile genetic elements was eliminated. This supported the idea that the accumulation of genetic elements was due to the care provided by the mothers rather than some inherited difference. Most of the excess was found in the hippocampus, a region of the brain involved in memory, but not in other regions of the brain, nor in a completely different organ like the heart, suggesting a very specific impact on brain mosaicism.
"The authors also report that the changes in levels of mobile genetic elements might in turn be mediated by a modification to the genomic DNA known as methylation. Methylation is not itself a change in the DNA sequence, but it can alter when and how DNA sequences are read and utilized by the cell. Pups raised with poor maternal care had decreased methylation of key regulatory sequences in the mobile genetic elements which in turn led to increased numbers of these elements and increases in their activity."
Comment: The mouse starts with a personality as a blank slate and everything that happens will impinge upon how the mouse turns out in personality structure. It shows the plasticity of the brain.
Brain complexity: axons are designed for precise speed
by David Turell , Thursday, July 12, 2018, 00:48 (2327 days ago) @ David Turell
An axon must send a signal with just the right speed so as not to overwhelm a neuron and allow for the neuron's refractory period:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-07-neuron-axons-spindly-theyre-optimizing.html
"So what is the role of the geometry of axons in information flow in the brain?
"The answer—that axons are designed and optimized to balance the speed that information flows into the neuron relative to the time it takes the neuron to process that information—seems intuitive, but has never been quantified until now.
***
"The specific balance that biological neurons are designed to accommodate is called the refraction ratio: it's the ratio between the refractory period of a neuron—when the neuron is unable to process incoming signals since its ion channels are resetting after being flooded with sodium— and the signal latency of information traveling down the axon. When that ratio approaches one, there is perfect balance, and the neuron is operating as efficiently as possible.
"In the study conducted by first author Francesca Puppo, a postdoctoral researcher in Bioengineering Professor Gabriel Silva's lab at the Jacobs School of Engineering at UC San Diego, the median refraction ratio value of the nearly 12,000 axonal branches examined was 0.92, quite close to the theoretically predicted perfect balance.
"The study used a dataset from the NeuroMorpho database that looked at a type of neuron called basket cells. This data was from rats, but humans have basket cells too. Puppo used the 3-D morphological data to reconstruct a graph-based model of the neurons' axons and axon branches. Then she calculated the conduction velocity along the axons given the diameter at different points along the axonal arborizations, and estimated the refractory period along the axon from soma to synaptic terminals based on data in the literature. The conduction velocity and length of each axon branch were used to calculate the propagation delay, which she compared to the refraction period to calculate the refraction ratio.
***
"Long, short, straight and curvy axons all had a refraction ratio approaching one. This means that when axons grow in a long and curved shape, it's designed that way by the neuron to slow down the action potential of signals in order to optimize the refraction ratio. When neurons aren't signaling at this ratio, there is a breakdown in information flow efficiency between cells.
***
"Puppo added that understanding this baseline of optimal function in neurons will allow researchers to better understand how information flow is perturbed in a variety of ways, including other neurological disorders such as schizophrenia, for example, as well as better understanding how drugs affect neuron function, since pharmacological drugs impact the cell's activity and the way synaptic transmission occurs in networks of neurons.
"'It would be interesting to investigate how drug perturbation affects signaling efficiency through computation of the refraction ratio for pairs of neurons in in-vitro networks of neurons before and after exposure to different chemical compounds," Puppo said. "The detection of a change in the refraction ratio could be helpful in the determination of their neural rescue properties.'"
Comment: Designed to perfection. We think with this complex system, helped by some sort of interpretive mechanism.
Brain complexity: sensing odors
by David Turell , Tuesday, July 24, 2018, 18:45 (2314 days ago) @ David Turell
It involves a broad network:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-07-widespread-neurons-brain-distinguish.html
"Can you tell the smell of a rose from the scent of a lilac? If so, you have your brain's piriform cortex to thank. Compared to many parts of the brain, the piriform cortex—which lets animals and humans process information about smells—looks like a messy jumble of connections between cells called neurons. Now, Salk Institute researchers have illuminated how the randomness of the piriform cortex is actually critical to how the brain distinguishes between similar odors.
"'The standard paradigm is that information in the brain is encoded by which cells are active, but that's not true for the olfactory system," says Charles Stevens, Distinguished Professor Emeritus in Salk's Molecular Neurobiology Laboratory and coauthor of the new work. "In the olfactory system, it turns out it's not a matter of which cells are active, but how many cells are active and how active they are."
***
"When odorant molecules—the signature of any given smell—bind to the receptors in a person's nose, the signal is transmitted to the olfactory bulb, and from there to the piriform cortex. In other sensory systems—like the visual system—information maintains a strict order as it moves through the brain. Particular parts of the eye, for instance, always transmit information to specific parts of the visual cortex. But researchers have long known that this order is missing in the piriform cortex.
"'We haven't been able to discern any order in the piriform cortex connections in any species," says coauthor Shyam Srinivasan, an assistant project scientist at the University of California San Diego's Kavli Institute for Brain and Mind. "Any given odor lights up about 10 percent of neurons that seem to be scattered all over the piriform cortex."
***
"Using this initial information on density and neuron number, as well as knowledge from previous studies on the number of neurons in the olfactory bulb and how many neuronal connections—or synapses—connect the olfactory bulb to the piriform cortex, the pair of researchers was able to draw a surprising finding: each neuron in the olfactory bulb is connected to nearly every single neuron in the piriform cortex.
"'Every cell in the piriform is getting information from essentially every odor receptor there is," says Stevens. "There's not one 'coffee smell' neuron but a whole bunch of coffee cell neurons all over the place." Rather than a single receptor detecting one odor and lighting up one cluster of telltale neurons, he explains, each odor has a fingerprint that's based more on the strength of the connections—while the smell of coffee may activate nearly the same neurons in the piriform cortex as the smell of chocolate, they'll activate each neuron to a different degree.
"'One advantage to this system is that it can encode very complex information," says Srinivasan. "It also makes it very robust to noise." If one neuron sends a "noisy" signal—stronger or weaker activation than it should—the noise gets cancelled out by the many other neurons sending simultaneous, more accurate signals."
Comment: Odors are a combination of aerosol molecules so this arrangement is not surprising. The visual cortex has to be different to make the images we see, separate pixels.
Brain complexity: DNA plasticity and personality
by David Turell , Wednesday, July 25, 2018, 20:34 (2313 days ago) @ David Turell
Studies in mice and how they are nurtured dictates what changes may occur in neuronal DNA to alter their potential personalities:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/early-life-experience-its-in-your-dna/?utm_s...
"What most people do not realize, however, is that the brain has remarkable genetic diversity, with some studies suggesting there may be hundreds of mutations in each nerve cell. In the developing brain, mutations and other genetic changes that occur while brain cells divide are passed down to a cluster of daughter cells. As a result, the adult brain is composed of a mosaic of genetically distinct cell clusters.
"We know that the activity and organization of the brain changes in response to experience. Memories and learning are reflected in the number and strength of connections between nerve cells. We also know that the brain is genetically mosaic, but a new study makes a remarkable connection between experience and the genetic diversity of the brain. It suggests that experience can change the DNA sequence of the genome contained in brain cells.
***
"...experience has an equally powerful capacity to change the genome, but only in cells of the brain. The care that a newborn receives in early life can have profound effects on psychological and intellectual growth. Attentive nurturing, feeding and grooming can reduce stress and anxiety and enhance psychological wellbeing. On the other hand, indifference can lead to increased anxiety and impaired psychological adjustment. This study reveals that one way the quality of early care could cause lifelong changes in behavior is by changing the brain’s genetic nature.
***
"Many of the differences in the genomes of nerve cells are due to the presence of mobile genetic elements called retrotransposons. These are stretches of DNA that can be copied and, as the name suggests transposed or incorporated into other areas of the genome. This study measured the accumulation of these mobile genetic elements in the brain as a consequence of maternal care. Mobile genetic elements accumulated in specific regions of the brains of mouse pups if the pups had poor maternal care. If a pup was born to a mother animal that provided low maternal care, but raised by a mother animal that provided high maternal care that accumulation of mobile genetic elements was eliminated. This supported the idea that the accumulation of genetic elements was due to the care provided by the mothers rather than some inherited difference. Most of the excess was found in the hippocampus, a region of the brain involved in memory, but not in other regions of the brain, nor in a completely different organ like the heart, suggesting a very specific impact on brain mosaicism.
"The authors also report that the changes in levels of mobile genetic elements might in turn be mediated by a modification to the genomic DNA known as methylation. Methylation is not itself a change in the DNA sequence, but it can alter when and how DNA sequences are read and utilized by the cell. Pups raised with poor maternal care had decreased methylation of key regulatory sequences in the mobile genetic elements which in turn led to increased numbers of these elements and increases in their activity.
***
"Linking early experience to the genomic variability of nerves suggests that early experience leaves an irreversible genomic imprint in the brain. This is an intriguing new twist on a debate that has been raging for centuries concerning the importance of nature versus nurture in behavior. This study implies that nature and nurture are not as independent as may have been been imagined, and that nature is not as immutable as once thought. As with all iconoclastic studies, there are caveats to this research, most importantly the fact that the number of mobile genetic elements is much higher in the neurons of the rodents studied here than it is in humans. Furthermore, we don’t yet understand how these genetic changes alter the brain activities that give rise to behavior. Nevertheless, this is a provocative study that links early experience with the genetic structure of neurons, and that highlights the remarkable plasticity and adaptability of the brain.
Comment: I know this is the material side of how the brain works in regard to experience and how it changes to reflect what has happened in an animal's life. Note the caveats stated above as to how this may apply to humans and their personality, which would be directly reflected in their souls.
Brain complexity: DNA plasticity and personality
by dhw, Thursday, July 26, 2018, 12:52 (2312 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: “This study implies that nature and nurture are not as independent as may have been been imagined, and that nature is not as immutable as once thought. As with all iconoclastic studies, there are caveats to this research, most importantly the fact that the number of mobile genetic elements is much higher in the neurons of the rodents studied here than it is in humans. Furthermore, we don’t yet understand how these genetic changes alter the brain activities that give rise to behavior. Nevertheless, this is a provocative study that links early experience with the genetic structure of neurons, and that highlights the remarkable plasticity and adaptability of the brain.”
David’s comment: I know this is the material side of how the brain works in regard to experience and how it changes to reflect what has happened in an animal's life. Note the caveats stated above as to how this may apply to humans and their personality, which would be directly reflected in their souls.
The article is all about the relationship between experience, behaviour and the brain. No mention of a soul. Just thought I ought to point that out!
Brain complexity: DNA plasticity and personality
by David Turell , Thursday, July 26, 2018, 17:48 (2312 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: “This study implies that nature and nurture are not as independent as may have been been imagined, and that nature is not as immutable as once thought. As with all iconoclastic studies, there are caveats to this research, most importantly the fact that the number of mobile genetic elements is much higher in the neurons of the rodents studied here than it is in humans. Furthermore, we don’t yet understand how these genetic changes alter the brain activities that give rise to behavior. Nevertheless, this is a provocative study that links early experience with the genetic structure of neurons, and that highlights the remarkable plasticity and adaptability of the brain.”
David’s comment: I know this is the material side of how the brain works in regard to experience and how it changes to reflect what has happened in an animal's life. Note the caveats stated above as to how this may apply to humans and their personality, which would be directly reflected in their souls.
dhw: The article is all about the relationship between experience, behaviour and the brain. No mention of a soul. Just thought I ought to point that out!
Of course a science article won't mention souls.
Brain complexity: psychedelics and mysticism
by David Turell , Friday, July 27, 2018, 19:21 (2311 days ago) @ David Turell
It is a real part of the brain or invented/caused by the drugs:
https://aeon.co/essays/is-psychedelics-research-closer-to-theology-than-to-science?utm_...
The mystical theory of psychedelics has five key tenets. The first is that psychedelics lead to a mystical experience of unitive, non-dual consciousness, in which all is one, you are united with It, God, the Tao, Brahman, etc. This experience is timeless, ineffable, joyful and noetic (you know that it is true).
Second, that the psychedelic experience is the same as the experience of mystics, found in all religions. Different religions use different terms for ultimate reality, but all mystics are really having the same non-dual experience. This is the theory of the ‘perennial philosophy’, promoted by Huxley and other perennialists. It’s known in religious studies as the ‘universal core of religious experience’ theory.
Third, that the mystical experience previously occurred mainly to ascetics such as St Teresa of Ávila, and was somewhat rare and unpredictable, therefore scientists dismissed it as ‘ego-regression’, ‘psychosis’ and so forth. But now psychedelics have revealed a predictable and replicable route to mystical experiences, so scientists can study them in the lab. They can measure them using brain-scans, or questionnaires such as the Hood Mysticism Scale, developed by the American psychologist Ralph Hood, which measures to what extent a person’s experience maps onto the ‘universal core’.
Fourth, that this scientific research will create an empirical spirituality or ‘neuro-theology’. It will prove, or at least make more credible, the transcendent insights of the mystics.
And finally, that this will change the world. Humanity will join a new scientific religion of mystical experience, beyond differences of language, nation, culture, religion, class, gender or ethnicity. We will all become liberal environmental progressives. We will all overcome our fear of death. After four centuries of materialism, Western culture will be re-enchanted, but in a predictable, rational and replicable way. Homo sapiens will be upgraded.
***
Meanwhile, European psychedelic laboratories, such as those at Imperial College London or in Zurich, tend to frame psychedelics less in the language of ‘mystical experience’, and more in the secular Freudian language of ‘ego-death’ or ‘psychosis-like states’. Predictably enough, as Nicolas Langlitz points out in Neuropsychedelia: The Revival of Hallucinogen Research Since the Decade of the Brain (2012), participants in European psychedelic trials report fewer mystical-type experiences than in US trials (though this might be partly because Johns Hopkins’ trials used larger doses of psilocybin).
This is the challenge faced by all research into ecstatic states of consciousness. The mind responds to our expectations, and to the script we bring to it, via what the Canadian philosopher Ian Hacking calls ‘looping effects’. We take the mind’s responses as objective proof of our theory, when they are really just responses to the script.
We hope that we are discovering something objectively true about the brain, or about ultimate reality. And psychedelic neuroscience might discover certain common neural patterns underlying different types of psychedelic experience. But as for the subjective experience, how do we know if our trips reveal ‘ultimate reality’ or just the reflection of our subconscious?
Comment: Let's note that NDE's are just like psychedelic experiences. So, is this a built-in part of consciousness as NDE's suggest, or is it invented by the brain under the influence of the drugs and oxygen deprivation in NDE's?
Brain complexity: psychedelics and mysticism
by dhw, Saturday, July 28, 2018, 12:31 (2311 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID’s comment: Let's note that NDE's are just like psychedelic experiences. So, is this a built-in part of consciousness as NDE's suggest, or is it invented by the brain under the influence of the drugs and oxygen deprivation in NDE's?
The two factors that keep me away from atheism are the complexities of life (or the argument for design, if you prefer) and people’s psychic experiences. There have been instances of these in my own family, and BBella has made a significant contribution to our discussions through her own experiences. Thank you for the article, and for phrasing your comment as a question. You've hit the spot!
-
Brain complexity: psychedelics and mysticism
by David Turell , Saturday, July 28, 2018, 15:00 (2310 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID’s comment: Let's note that NDE's are just like psychedelic experiences. So, is this a built-in part of consciousness as NDE's suggest, or is it invented by the brain under the influence of the drugs and oxygen deprivation in NDE's?
dhw:The two factors that keep me away from atheism are the complexities of life (or the argument for design, if you prefer) and people’s psychic experiences. There have been instances of these in my own family, and BBella has made a significant contribution to our discussions through her own experiences. Thank you for the article, and for phrasing your comment as a question. You've hit the spot!
Thank you. My answer to my question is this: note what the brain invents in both circumstances is identifiable as the same view of a loving reality. It is more likely a real part of conscious properties of the brain.
Brain complexity: past experience and pattern recognition
by David Turell , Tuesday, July 31, 2018, 22:28 (2307 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by David Turell, Tuesday, July 31, 2018, 22:34
With some past experience and reinforcement with new images, the brain can find patterns that create clearer recognition of blurred images:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180731104224.htm
"A new study argues that humans recognize what they are looking at by combining current sensory stimuli with comparisons to images stored in memory.
"'The work also supports the theory that what we recognize is influenced more by past experiences than by newly arriving sensory input from the eyes," says He, part of the Neuroscience Institute at NYU Langone Health.
***
"Most past vision research, however, has been based on experiments wherein clear images were shown to subjects in perfect lighting, says He. The current study instead analyzed visual perception as subjects looked at black-and-white images degraded until they were difficult to recognize. Nineteen subjects were shown 33 such obscured "Mooney images" -- 17 of animals and 16 humanmade objects -- in a particular order. They viewed each obscured image six times, then a corresponding clear version once to achieve recognition, and then blurred images again six times after. Following the presentation of each blurred image, subjects were asked if they could name the object shown.
"After seeing the clear version of each image, the study subjects were more than twice as likely to recognize what they were looking at when again shown the obscured version as they were of recognizing it before seeing the clear version. They had been "forced" to use a stored representation of clear images, called priors, to better recognize related, blurred versions, says He.
"The authors then used mathematical tricks to create a 2D map that measured, not nerve cell activity in each tiny section of the brain as it perceived images, but instead of how similar nerve network activity patterns were in different brain regions. Nerve cell networks in the brain that represented images more similarly landed closer to each other on the map.
"This approach revealed the existence of a stable system of brain organization that processed each image in the same steps, and regardless of whether clear or blurry, the authors say. Early, simpler brain circuits in the visual cortex that determine edge, shape, and color clustered on one end of the map, and more complex, "higher-order" circuits known to mix past and present information to plan actions at the opposite end.
"These higher-order circuits included two brain networks, the default-mode network (DMN) and frontoparietal network (FPN), both linked by past studies to executing complex tasks such as planning actions, but not to visual, perceptual processing. Rather than remaining stable in the face of all images, the similarity patterns in these two networks shifted as brains went from processing unrecognized blurry images to effortlessly recognizing the same images after seeing a clear version. After previously seeing a clear version (disambiguation), neural activity patterns corresponding to each blurred image in the two networks became more distinct from the others, and more like the clear version in each case.
"Strikingly, the clear image-induced shift of neural representation towards perceptual prior was much more pronounced in brain regions with higher, more complex functions than in the early, simple visual processing networks. This further suggests that more of the information shaping current perceptions comes from what people have experienced before."
Comment: The brain helps in observation by using past information, contributing old memories as well as receiving new observations
Brain complexity: different human brain evolution
by David Turell , Thursday, August 02, 2018, 18:51 (2305 days ago) @ David Turell
It is not only bigger but differently organized than other animals:
https://www.sapiens.org/evolution/primate-intelligence/
"The downfall of rodents, in other words, is that their brains don’t adapt well to the problems of being big. They don’t compensate efficiently for the communication bottlenecks that emerge as brains increase in size. This constraint has severely limited their capacity for intelligence.
"Primates, on the other hand, do adapt to these challenges. As primate brains become larger from species to species, their blueprints do gradually change—allowing them to circumvent the problem of long-distance communication.
"Kaas thinks that primates managed to keep most of their neurons the same size by shifting the burden of long-distance communication onto a small subset of nerve cells. He points to microscopic studies showing that perhaps 1 percent of neurons do expand in big-brained primates: These are the neurons that gather information from huge numbers of nearby cells and send it to other neurons that are far away. Some of the axons that make these long-distance connections also get thicker; this allows time-sensitive information, such as a visual image of a rapidly moving predator, or prey, to reach its destination without delay. But less-urgent information—that is, most of it—is sent through slower, skinnier axons. So in primates, the average thickness of axons doesn’t increase, and less white matter is needed.
"This pattern of keeping most connections local, and having only a few cells transmit information long-distance, had huge consequences for primate evolution. It didn’t merely allow primate brains to squeeze in more neurons. Kaas thinks that it also had a more profound effect: It actually changed how the brain does its work. Since most cells communicated only with nearby partners, these groups of neurons became cloistered into local neighborhoods. Neurons in each neighborhood worked on a specific task—and only the end result of that work was transmitted to other areas far away. In other words, the primate brain became more compartmentalized. And as these local areas increased in number, this organizational change allowed primates to evolve more and more cognitive abilities.
"All mammal brains are divided into compartments, called “cortical areas,” that each contain a few million neurons. And each cortical area handles a specialized task: The visual system, for example, includes different areas for spotting the simple edges of shapes and for recognizing objects. Rodent brains don’t seem to become more compartmentalized as they get larger, says Kaas. Every rodent from the bite-sized mouse to the Doberman-sized capybara has about the same number of cortical areas—roughly 40. But primate brains are different. Small primates, such as galagos, have around 100 areas; marmosets have about 170, macaques about 270—and humans around 360.
"In primates, some of these new areas took on novel social tasks, such as recognizing faces and the emotions of others, and learning written or spoken language—the very skills that helped to drive the evolution of hominin culture, and, arguably, human intelligence. “Primates with large brains have really superior processing,” says Kaas. “But rodents with larger brains may be processing things almost the same as rodents with smaller brains. They haven’t gained much.”
***
"This story unfolded a little over 60 million years ago, not long after early primates had split off, in quick succession, from three other major groups of mammals that include modern-day rodents, tree shrews, and colugos (a.k.a. “flying lemurs”).
"These early primates were smaller than rats. They crept quietly along tree branches at night, grasping twigs with their prehensile fingers and toes as they hunted insects. They didn’t look like much at all, says Herculano-Houzel.
"But a subtle tweak had already occurred deep in their little brains—a change in the genes that guide how neurons connect to one another during fetal development. This change probably made little difference at first. But over the long run, it would profoundly separate primates from the rodents and other groups that they had parted ways with. This tiny change would keep nerve cells small, even as brains gradually got bigger and bigger. It would bend the arc of evolution for tens of millions of years to come. Without it, humans never would have walked the earth."
Comment: Was this genetic change purposeful from God? Or chance? We have a highly convoluted cortex compared to other animals. The original article is 20 minutes of reading long, and fascinatingly clear as to how the research was conducted in comparative anatomy of rodents and primates from the split 60 million years ago.
Brain complexity: island birds have larger brighter brain
by David Turell , Thursday, August 02, 2018, 19:04 (2305 days ago) @ David Turell
A large study presents the finding:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/island-life-gives-birds-bigger-brains
"Birds that live on oceanic islands have larger brains than their relatives on the mainland, new research shows. And the difference holds not only for notably smart species, such as crows, but also for not-very-clever ones, such as pigeons.
"Evolution is a complex process, with environmental changes and genetic drift setting species off on any number of paths, and evolutionary biologists are keen to find evidence of the process at work according to predictable trends. Some selective pressures are more common in island environments than on the mainland, resulting in trends such as convergence in body shape in lizards, and the loss of flight in birds.
***
"In birds, overall brain size is an accurate proxy for cognitive ability, as the larger brain has a larger pallial region, the area responsible for spatial learning.
***
"For the latest study, led by Ferran Sayol from the Ecological Applications and Forest Research Centre in Barcelona, Spain, measured the brain size of 110 avian species living on islands, and 1821 continental species. The dataset involved 11,554 specimens from 1931 bird species.
"To tease out the confounding factor of whether large brain size is a precursor to, or the result of, successful island colonisation, the researchers applied a Bayesian phylogenetic framework – a detailed examination of evolutionary relationships and niche breadth.
"The advantage of such a big dataset is that it includes large-brained species such as corvids and parrots, alongside other island colonisers such as pigeons and rails which have smaller brains and are not quite as well known for their intelligence. The trend stayed true across multiple families: island birds have bigger brains than their mainland counterparts.
“'Our findings indicate that island birds tend to have larger brains than their mainland close relatives and that these differences have evolved in situ and independently in several lineages,” says Sayol.
"The paper, published in the journal Nature Communications, suggests that island living is more unpredictable, which in turn selects for larger brains despite the substantial energetic and developmental costs involved in running them.
"The island environment limits dispersal. When environmental conditions deteriorate, bigger brains with enough behavioural plasticity to switch to novel foods or change foraging techniques are selected. For example, the Galapagos woodpecker finch is more likely to use its tiny grass stick tool to extract insect prey when the island is in drought conditions."
Comment: This study uses size as compared to the human study which looks at size plus complexity.
Brain complexity: methylation controls synapse function
by David Turell , Friday, August 10, 2018, 20:28 (2297 days ago) @ David Turell
The latest work in mouse brains shows that disruption of the epigenetic marks disrupts brain function:
https://phys.org/news/2018-08-methyl-rna-key-brain-cell.html
"Methyl chemical groups dot lengths of DNA, helping to control when certain genes are accessible by a cell. In new research, UCLA scientists have shown that at the connections between brain cells—which often are located far from the central control centers of the cells—methyl groups also dot chains of RNA. This methyl markup of RNA molecules is likely key to brain cells' ability to quickly send signals to other cells and react to changing stimuli in a fraction of a second.
***
"Research has recently suggested that methyl chemical groups, which can control when DNA is transcribed into mRNA, are also found on strands of mRNA. The methylation of mRNA, researchers hypothesize, adds a level of control to when the mRNA can be translated into proteins, and their occurrence has been documented in a handful of organs throughout the bodies of mammals. The pattern of methyls on mRNA in any given cell is dubbed the "epitranscriptome."
"UCLA and Kyoto University researchers mapped out the location of methyls on mRNA found at the synapses, or junctions, of mouse brain cells. They isolated brain cells from adult mice and compared the epitranscriptome found at the synapses to the epitranscriptomes of mRNA elsewhere in the cells. At more than 4,000 spots on the genome, the mRNA at the synapse was methylated more often. More than half of these spots, the researchers went on to show, are in genes that encode proteins found mostly at the synapse. The researchers found that when they disrupted the methylation of mRNA at the synapse, the brain cells didn't function normally.
"The methylation of mRNA at the synapse is likely one of many ways that neurons speed up their ability to send messages, by allowing the mRNA to be poised and ready to translate into proteins when needed.
"The levels of key proteins at synapses have been linked to a number of psychiatric disorders, including autism. Understanding how the epitranscriptome is regulated, and what role it plays in brain biology, may eventually provide researchers with a new way to control the proteins found at synapses and, in turn, treat disorders characterized by synaptic dysfunction. "
Comment: Part of brain plasticity is epigenetic markers. A changed brain can change thought expression by altering the thought producing electric impulses.
Brain complexity: self-organizing molecules speed reactions
by David Turell , Thursday, August 16, 2018, 00:04 (2292 days ago) @ David Turell
Especially found for immune reaction stimulation at synapses:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-protein-droplets-neurons-ready-immune.html
"Inside cells, where DNA is packed tightly in the nucleus and rigid proteins keep intricate transport systems on track, some molecules have a simpler way of establishing order. They can self-organize, find one another in crowded spaces, and quickly coalesce into droplets—like oil in water.
***
"In one study, HHMI Investigator Pietro De Camilli and colleagues have shown how liquid droplets inside neurons keep signals racing through the brain. In the other, a team led by HHMI Investigator Zhijian "James" Chen has discovered that droplets of a danger-sensing enzyme generate signals that launch an immune response.
"The formation of these droplets is a phenomenon known as phase separation. In the last decade, biologists have watched proteins and RNA molecules rapidly organize themselves into droplets inside test tubes and spotted liquid-like droplets inside cells.
"But it hasn't always been clear what, if any, advantages these droplets provide. The new discoveries from De Camilli and Chen offer an answer—a clear link between phase separation and biological function.
"In his lab at the Yale School of Medicine, De Camilli studies how neurons manage the neurotransmitters that relay signals between neighboring cells. Inside cells, these signaling molecules reside in tiny membrane-bound spheres called synaptic vesicles. When an incoming message arrives, vesicles release their contents into the synapse, the space across which a cell communicates with its neighbor.
"Each cell can store thousands of vesicles in structures called nerve terminals. At times, a single terminal may need to release more than 100 synaptic vesicles in a second. So it's crucial that the reserves are readily accessible, De Camilli says.
"No membrane or structure encases the clusters, and De Camilli says he wondered for decades what held them together. When he heard about other biologists' phase separation discoveries, he suspected the phenomenon might also apply to synapsin.
"Postdoctoral researcher Dragomir Milovanovic was struck by some features of synapsin that resemble those of other proteins that can phase separate. He dropped a solution of fluorescent synapsin molecules onto a cover slip and watched them quickly coalesce into droplets. Occasionally, two droplets merged into one, just like oil droplets finding one another in water. In other experiments, Milovanovic observed individual synapsin molecules moving freely between droplets. Just as the scientists had guessed, synapsin was behaving like a fluid.
***
"In nerve cells, droplets of synaptic vesicles offer a clear advantage, he says: a ready supply of neurotransmitter messengers. The finding explains how neurons can keep up when the demand for neurotransmitter release is high.
"At the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Chen's work with liquid droplets helped explain a different puzzle: how a DNA-sensing enzyme alerts the immune system to infection. That enzyme is cyclic GMP-AMP synthase, or cGAS, which Chen's lab discovered in 2012
The enzyme floats in the cytoplasm of cells and switches on when it encounters DNA. Since a cell's own genes are contained in its nucleus and mitochondria, DNA in the cytoplasm is a signal that something is amiss—usually, that a pathogen is present. cGAS responds by generating cGAMP, a messenger molecule that calls on the body's first line of defense—the innate immune system—to counter the suspected threat.
***
"Du's experiments established that the enzyme forms droplets only in the presence of DNA. These droplets are critical for pathogen sensing—they appear to act as microreactors, bringing the enzyme together with everything it needs to generate the immune-activating messenger molecule, Chen says. Longer pieces of DNA are better at promoting droplet formation than short ones.
"And because DNA must be present above a threshold level before these droplets form, cGAS rarely calls the innate immune system to action unnecessarily. Waiting until enough DNA is present to trigger phase separation effectively lets the enzyme distinguish friends from foe, Chen says.
"Sometimes, he notes, cells fail to achieve that fine balance. Then, cGAS, and consequently the immune system, overreact to a cell's own DNA, resulting in autoimmune diseases such as lupus or arthritis. Understanding how phase separation regulates this enzyme may help scientists devise ways to correct such problems. "
Comment: A cleverly designed rapid response system. This had to have appeared very early on to protect against infections. Too complex for chance evolution.
Brain complexity: bat brains have a GPS memory
by David Turell , Monday, August 20, 2018, 20:02 (2287 days ago) @ David Turell
New research in mammals for 3-D natural studies of behavior using bats:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-bat-man-neuroscience-on-the-fly/?utm_sou...
"The vast majority of experiments probing navigation in the brain have been done in the confines of labs, using earthbound rats and mice. He constructed the flight tunnel on a disused plot on the grounds of the Weizmann Institute of Science—the first of several planned arenas—because he wanted to find out how a mammalian brain navigates a more natural environment. In particular, he wanted to know how brains deal with a third dimension.
***
"The tunnel, which Ulanovsky built in 2016, has already proved its scientific value. So have the bats. They have helped Ulanovsky to discover new aspects of the complex encoding of navigation—a fundamental brain function essential for survival. He has found a new cell type responsible for the bats’ 3D compass, and other cells that keep track of where other bats are in the environment.
***
"And for brain scientists hitting the limits of what they can learn from highly simplified behaviour in the lab, Ulanovsky is a pioneer of "natural neuroscience." Over the years, his arenas and tunnels have been getting larger, more sophisticated and less like an artificial lab environment. Up next is a giant maze that will allow his team to ask even more advanced questions about how the brain copes with making decisions—such as which way to turn—on the wing.
***
"In this set-up, he has been able to reveal the 3D territory of a typical bat-nav neuron. For example, place-cell fields—measured in rats as flat circles of a particular size—turned out in flying bats to be almost spherical, showing none of the vertical elongation that some rat experiments had predicted. He worked out how head-direction cells operate as a 3D compass, and discovered another type of navigation cell—the long-sought vector cell—which tracks angle and distance to a particular goal. One series of experiments helped put to rest a once-popular theory from rat studies that proposed that a certain type of brain oscillation creates grid-like neural maps; the oscillation turned out to be absent in bats, and therefore not necessary for such map-building.
"He also explored the influence of a bat’s social world. When he put a companion bat into the flight room, he discovered that the monitored bat had ‘social place cells’ that track the companion’s position. He’d imagined that such cells must exist somewhere in the brain—bats obviously need to know where their fellow bats are, as well as their predators—but was not expecting they would necessarily show up inside the hippocampus. He is now monitoring how the brains of two or three bats register the social interaction of up to ten companion bats living together in the large flight room for several months.
***
"Since the inaugural flight in March 2016, Ulanovsky and his students have collected data from more than 200 neurons across different bats. These early data hint at interesting insights. For example, Ulanovsky found that a single cell would fire at one location in a small area but also at a quite different location in a large area, indicating that place cells might represent multiple spatial scales, not just one particular scale. Researchers hadn’t been able to spot this pattern in experiments in small enclosures. Ulanovsky needs more data to confirm this, but it would be in line with the predictions of some theoreticians. “If place cells all had small, laboratory-sized place fields, there would not be enough neurons in the hippocampal area to individually cover the great distances that bats travel,” says Ulanovsky, “so it makes sense that some place cells respond to multiple scales.”
***
“'Behavioural neuroscientists like myself are increasingly realizing how important it is to move away from overtrained lab-animal brains,” she says. In typical lab experiments, animals are trained in a very specific, usually unnatural, task. “That may not have anything to do with how that animal has evolved brain connectivity to optimize foraging in the wild,” she says.
"Like others around the world, Angelaki’s lab is starting to use neural loggers to monitor more natural rodent behaviour, such as foraging for food scattered in their enclosures. She predicts that more researchers will start setting up their experiments with an eye on the natural world. “Over the next five years or so, results will start to emerge and there will be a big change in neuroscience practice,” she says.
"However, as Moser notes, Ulanovsky’s bats aren’t yet doing anything as clever as finding a fruit tree in the wild. “It doesn’t take much thought to fly up and down a tunnel,” he says. So Ulanovsky is nursing an even bigger mind-reading ambition. He is seeking funding for a maze 40 metres wide and 60 long—a little under half the size of a football pitch—to test how bat brains represent more complex environments, then plan and make decisions about how to navigate them."
Comment: Humans must have a GPS also. Our artificial insemination expert, when we had cattle, had a stroke and lost his geographic sense except for our local town, but had to be driven into Houston when he needed to go there.
Brain complexity: brains have weight controls
by David Turell , Wednesday, August 22, 2018, 19:54 (2285 days ago) @ David Turell
It has long been known that during dieting humans have a 'starvation mechanism that can deduct 300 calories a day from the basal metabolism in order to preserve weight, a system probably developed to cover the feast and famine existence of early homo forms. Now the brain proteins that relate to fat metabolism is found:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-receptor-protein-brain-body-fat.html
"The protein, called the melanocortin 3 receptor (MC3R) maintains what Roger Cone, director of the U-M Life Sciences Institute, has termed "energy rheostasis," a poorly understood phenomenon in the field of metabolism research.
"A lack of MC3R has almost no effect on mice under normal conditions. But when their metabolism is challenged, mice without this protein lose more weight when fasting and gain more weight when eating a high-fat diet, compared with normal mice.
***
"Our bodies have mechanisms to balance the amount of energy we take in, through food consumption, and the amount of energy we use. When we lose weight, the brain increases hunger and signals the body to conserve energy. If we are using less energy, the brain sends signals to reduce food intake. This so-called energy homeostasis, or balance, is controlled in part by another receptor protein that Cone's research group discovered, the melanocortin 4 receptor (MC4R).
"Just like a rheostat on the wall determines how much energy goes into a light bulb, rheostasis in this case sets the upper or lower boundaries for how far the energy balance can shift before the MC4R protein will take action to restore the balance. When the body experiences some sort of metabolic stress that shifts energy levels—fasting or eating a high-fat diet, for example—MC3R ensures that the balance of energy and fat in the body does not drift too far in either direction.
***
"When we eat less and exercise more to lose weight, our bodies sense when the energy balance has tipped below the established lower boundary and try to adjust by using less energy and increasing appetite, to return to homeostasis. This lower boundary is what makes it difficult to keep weight off," said lead study author Masoud Ghamari-Langroudi of the Vanderbilt University School of Medicine.
***
"The protein also plays a role in regulating changes in the body's energy balance that occur as part of the normal life cycle. During both pregnancy and menopause, for example, females experience an increase in the amount of fat reserves stored in the body.
While at Vanderbilt, co-author Rachel Lippert of the Max Planck Institute for Metabolism Research made the unusual discovery that mice lacking the MC3R protein gain less weight than they should during pregnancy, and gain more weight than normal mice during a mouse model of menopause.
"These seemingly contradictory effects are why the protein perplexed researchers for so long. Cone and his colleagues discovered both MC3R and MC4R in mouse brains in the mid-1990s. The researchers, along with other laboratories around the world, fairly quickly determined MC4R's role in maintaining the setpoint for energy homeostasis. A lack of MC4R is now known to be the most common cause of syndromic obesity in humans.
"Scientists did not understand why the MC3R protein, in contrast, sometimes led to excessive weight loss and other times to excessive weight gain.
"'And now, we finally have an answer," Cone said."
Comment: The obesity epidemic today is because there is too much food available and the ancient mechanisms are being overridden by unthinking people. The mechanisms that are found cover the problems of feast and famine periods alternating in early human forms. One does not see fat hunter-gatherers.
Brain complexity: brains have weight controls
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Wednesday, August 22, 2018, 21:03 (2285 days ago) @ David Turell
David Comment: The obesity epidemic today is because there is too much food available and the ancient mechanisms are being overridden by unthinking people. The mechanisms that are found cover the problems of feast and famine periods alternating in early human forms. One does not see fat hunter-gatherers.
Too much of the wrong food, and too little in terms of energy expenditure. Most people don't walk anywhere anymore.
--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Brain complexity: brains have weight controls
by David Turell , Wednesday, August 22, 2018, 22:56 (2285 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
David Comment: The obesity epidemic today is because there is too much food available and the ancient mechanisms are being overridden by unthinking people. The mechanisms that are found cover the problems of feast and famine periods alternating in early human forms. One does not see fat hunter-gatherers.
Tony: Too much of the wrong food, and too little in terms of energy expenditure. Most people don't walk anywhere anymore.
Believe me, I know the problem and I'm walking. Another control mechanism presented in the next entry.
Brain complexity: brains have weight controls
by David Turell , Wednesday, August 22, 2018, 23:05 (2285 days ago) @ David Turell
Another one, involving satiety control:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-destructive-mechanism-blocks-brain.html
"An international team of researchers has uncovered a destructive mechanism at the molecular level that causes a well-known phenomenon associated with obesity, called leptin resistance.
"They found that mice fed a high-fat diet produce an enzyme named MMP-2 that clips receptors for the hormone leptin from the surface of neuronal cells in the hypothalamus. This blocks leptin from binding to its receptors. This in turn keeps the neurons from signaling that your stomach is full and you should stop eating.
***
"Leptin molecules are released from white fat tissue during a meal. They travel through the blood stream into the brain, specifically the hypothalamus, where they stimulate neural receptors to signal that the stomach is full. People who are obese often have plenty of leptin in their blood, but it fails to lead to signaling satiety.
"Leptin resistance is a known process associated with obesity, but the molecular mechanisms by which it occurs were not understood.
"Researchers first tested brain tissue from obese mice for protease activity. This is how they found MMP-2, the enzyme that they suspected was damaging leptin receptors. Mazor and colleagues then developed a method to tag leptin receptors to see what was happening to them.
They observed that MMP-2 was damaging the receptors, which lost their ability to signal. Researchers then used a recombinant protein to verify that the MMP-2 enzyme was indeed cleaving leptin receptors. They also cultured brain cells from mice and found clipped receptors when MMP-2 was present.
"Researchers genetically altered a group of mice to not produce MMP-2. In spite of being fed a high-fat diet, these mice gained less weight and their leptin receptors remained intact. Meanwhile, mice that were fed the same diet but were not genetically altered became obese and their leptin receptors were cleaved."
Comment: There must be complex networks of protein reactions to tell the brain when enough is enough. Obesity is a dangerous condition. There is no way chance can develop a series of controls like this. It has too many parts and must be designed.
Brain complexity: unique human brain neuron found
by David Turell , Tuesday, August 28, 2018, 21:21 (2279 days ago) @ David Turell
This newly found neuron in the human cortex has not been found in mice or other study animals so far:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180827180809.htm
"The research team, co-led by Lein and Gábor Tamás, Ph.D., a neuroscientist at the University of Szeged in Szeged, Hungary, has uncovered a new type of human brain cell that has never been seen in mice and other well-studied laboratory animals.
"Tamás and University of Szeged doctoral student Eszter Boldog dubbed these new cells "rosehip neurons" -- to them, the dense bundle each brain cell's axon forms around the cell's center looks just like a rose after it has shed its petals, he said. The newly discovered cells belong to a class of neurons known as inhibitory neurons, which put the brakes on the activity of other neurons in the brain.
"The study hasn't proven that this special brain cell is unique to humans. But the fact that the special neuron doesn't exist in rodents is intriguing, adding these cells to a very short list of specialized neurons that may exist only in humans or only in primate brains.
"The researchers don't yet understand what these cells might be doing in the human brain, but their absence in the mouse points to how difficult it is to model human brain diseases in laboratory animals, Tamás said. One of his laboratory team's immediate next steps is to look for rosehip neurons in postmortem brain samples from people with neuropsychiatric disorders to see if these specialized cells might be altered in human disease.
***
"What appears to be unique about rosehip neurons is that they only attach to one specific part of their cellular partner, indicating that they might be controlling information flow in a very specialized way.
"If you think of all inhibitory neurons like brakes on a car, the rosehip neurons would let your car stop in very particular spots on your drive, Tamás said. They'd be like brakes that only work at the grocery store, for example, and not all cars (or animal brains) have them.
"'This particular cell type -- or car type -- can stop at places other cell types cannot stop," Tamás said. "The car or cell types participating in the traffic of a rodent brain cannot stop in these places."
"The researchers' next step is to look for rosehip neurons in other parts of the brain, and to explore their potential role in brain disorders. Although scientists don't yet know whether rosehip neurons are truly unique to humans, the fact that they don't appear to exist in rodents is another strike against the laboratory mouse as a perfect model of human disease -- especially for neurological diseases, the researchers said.
"'Our brains are not just enlarged mouse brains," said Trygve Bakken, M.D., Ph.D., Senior Scientist at the Allen Institute for Brain Science and an author on the study. "People have commented on this for many years, but this study gets at the issue from several angles."
"'Many of our organs can be reasonably modeled in an animal model," Tamás said. "But what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom is the capacity and the output of our brain. That makes us human. So it turns out humanity is very difficult to model in an animal system.'"
Comment: We now have to wonder if our special dorm of consciousness is related to special neuron cell types unique to our brain.
Brain complexity: anesthesia allows dreaming
by David Turell , Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 15:08 (2278 days ago) @ David Turell
Anesthesia appears to work by disconnecting parts of the brain and dreams can oc cur:
https://www.sciencealert.com/altered-states-consciousness-anaesthesia-sleep-like-state
"When you're getting the kind of surgery that requires being put under, you definitely don't want to be awake for any of the slicing. But a new study shows that when it comes to some general anaesthetics, our brains might be in a more sleep-like state than previously realised.
"The discovery suggests that far from being switched off, some parts of the brain are still capable of processing sensations from their environment, even if the patient can't recall any of it on waking.
"Researchers from the University of Turku in Finland compared the neurological effects of a pair of drugs commonly used to render patients unresponsive before medical procedures.
"Their goal was to determine whether the lack of responsiveness was largely due to the direct influence of the drugs themselves, or whether there was a knock-on effect that sends us into la-la land.
"The difference isn't just academic. If it's a knock-on effect, anaesthesia simply triggers an altered state of consciousness rather than flicking our off switch, meaning some conscious processes are still ticking while we're knocked out.
"As the researchers say in their report, "unresponsiveness does not equal unconsciousness, as one may have conscious experiences without behavioural responsiveness."
***
"In this study, 47 healthy volunteers were dosed with either the sedative dexmedetomidine or the general anaesthetic propofol before having their brain waves recorded.
"Both drugs result in unresponsiveness at a certain dosages, though propofol is a far more powerful anaesthetic.
"When barely out cold, half of the subjects in the dexmedetomidine group could be aroused with a brief shake and a loud shout. Surprisingly, 42 percent of those given propofol could also be woken into a groggy state.
***
"Later, the volunteers in both the sedative and the anaesthetic groups could recall the event, if a little hazily.
"'Nearly all participants reported dream-like experiences that sometimes mixed with the reality," says pyschologist Antti Revonsuo.
"The two groups were also played recordings of sentences which ended unexpectedly, such as "The night sky was filled with shimmering tomatoes". Other recordings were completely normal.
"Electroencephalogram recordings indicated volunteers who were deeply sedated could still hear the confusing phrases and were trying to make sense of it, even if later they couldn't remember hearing the sentences.
***
"'Against common belief, anaesthesia does not require full loss of consciousness, as it is sufficient to just disconnect the patient from the environment."
"While previous research has matched brain waves with states of awareness under anaesthesia, the fine control over the dosing in this study allowed researchers to identify changes due to the drugs and those due to changing consciousness.
"The work falls in line with other studies that also suggest anaesthesia doesn't switch off parts of the brain, as much as prevents them from communicating freely.
"If this sounds like nightmare fuel, take a deep breath – this isn't implying we can feel the cut of the surgeon's scalpel while lying trapped on a table.
"Rather, much like natural sleep, our brain is still half-paying attention, even if our awareness is switched off."
Comment: Under anesthesia consciousness does not completely disappear.
Brain complexity: fast moving organism without muscles
by David Turell , Friday, December 14, 2018, 19:17 (2171 days ago) @ David Turell
A tiny simple ocean organism changes shape in the oceans:
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/fastest-ever-cell-contractions-observed-in-p...
"Most animals rely on changes in cell shape to move tissues around during development, but these alterations are usually slow and are rare in adult animals. In a case of extreme exception described in October in PNAS, the adult marine invertebrate Trichoplax adhaerens, a critter in the shape of a smashed wad of chewing gum no bigger than a piece of lint, consistently contracts and relaxes the cells on the top of its body at speeds nearly 10 times faster than ever before observed in an animal.
***
"It’s “astonishing” that a cell can contract so quickly and retain its functional integrity while adhering to the surrounding cells, says Alejandro Sánchez Alvarado, a biologist at the Stowers Institute for Medical Research in Kansas City, Missouri, who did not participate in the work. “That’s a remarkable way of managing force, and [studying this animal] is helping us understand how multicellularity may have arisen as a life form on this planet.”
"Trichoplax adhaerens are just a millimeter or two in diameter and flatter than a piece of paper—only about 25 microns thick. This tiny blob of an animal lives in oceans and is thought to be one of the most ancient metazoans. Their bodies are made up of two layers of epithelial cells: the ciliated bottom layer faces the substrate along which they’re moving and the top layer faces open water. So-called fiber cells reside in between the epithelia. They have no muscles, nerves, organs, or extracellular matrix, yet they are capable of directed movement, coordinated secretion of digestive enzymes, and predictable behaviors.
***
"The researchers also confirmed previous work showing that actin bundles appear on the surface of Trichoplax cells, as is the case for nonmuscle contractile cells in other animals, and determined that homologs of human myosins were present in the animal’s genome. They performed theoretical calculations that showed the observed cellular movements could be explained by nonmuscle myosin acting on the actin bundles present on the cellular surface. In the study, the team hypothesizes that the rapid contractions and corresponding expansions of the cells’ surfaces allow the animal to cope with external and internal forces without tearing apart.
Comment: Actin fibers form a skeleton and traffic ways in the cells. I wonder if slime mold movement is the result of a similar mechanism. All part of the diversity in organisms that make up the bush of life, which has just gotten bushier. See the next entry.
Brain complexity: theory of pattern recognition
by David Turell , Sunday, May 10, 2020, 21:50 (1658 days ago) @ David Turell
Our brain helps us see patterns. A newer theory:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-brain-complex.html
"The human brain is a highly advanced information processor composed of more than 86 billion neurons. Humans are adept at recognizing patterns from complex networks, such as languages, without any formal instruction. Previously, cognitive scientists tried to explain this ability by depicting the brain as a highly optimized computer, but there is now discussion among neuroscientists that this model might not accurately reflect how the brain works.
***
"this new model shows that the ability to detect patterns stems in part from the brain's goal to represent things in the simplest way possible. Their model depicts the brain as constantly balancing accuracy with simplicity when making decisions.
***
"Using tools from information theory and reinforcement learning, the researchers were able to use this data to implement a metric of complexity called entropy. "Being very random is the least complex thing you could do, whereas if you were learning the sequence very precisely, that's the most complex thing you can do. The balance between errors and complexity, or negative entropy, gives rise to the predictions that the model gives," says Lynn.
"Their resulting model of how the brain processes information depicts the brain as balancing two opposing pressures: complexity versus accuracy. "You can be very complex and learn well, but then you are working really hard to learn patterns," says Lynn. "Or, you have a lower complexity process, which is easier, but you are not going to learn the patterns as well."
"With their new model, the researchers were also able to quantify this balance using a parameter beta. If beta is zero, the brain makes a lot of errors but minimizes complexity. If beta is high, then the brain is taking precautions to avoid making errors. "All beta does is tune between which is dominating," says Lynn. In this study, 20% of the participants had a small beta, 10% had high beta values, and the remaining 70% were somewhere in between. "You do see this wide spread of beta values across people," he says.
***
"And what about the role of making mistakes? Their model provides support for the idea that the human brain isn't an optimal learning machine but rather that making mistakes, and learning from them, plays a huge role in behavior and cognition. It seems that being able to look at complex systems more broadly, like stepping away from a pointillist painting, gives the brain a better idea of overall relationships.
"'Understanding structure, or how these elements relate to one another, can emerge from an imperfect encoding of the information. If someone were perfectly able to encode all of the incoming information, they wouldn't necessarily understand the same kind of grouping of experiences that they do if there's a little bit of fuzziness to it," says Kahn.
"'The coolest thing is that errors in how people are learning and perceiving the world are influencing our ability to learn structures. So we are very much divorced from how a computer would act," says Lynn.
"The researchers are now interested in what makes the modular network easier for the brain to interpret and are also conducting functional MRI studies to understand where in the brain these network associations are being formed. They are also curious as to whether people's balance of complexity and accuracy is fluid, whether people can change on their own or if they are "set,"and also hope to do experiments using language inputs sometime in the future."
Comment: We certainly don't act like computers in our form of pattern recognition. Without question, our brain is built to help us understand what we are seeing. I find this explanation kind of muddy.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Monday, April 20, 2020, 23:28 (1678 days ago) @ David Turell
We disagree about the blank slate concept of baby brains. My view is they are a blank slate befor any new experience, but have an inherited background of tendencies for types of personality development. dhw's view was much more strict, noting that if the brain arrived with tendencies, it couldn't be called blank. A lot of semantic nothingness debate. This study is very long term, from infancy into the mid-twenties. Tendencies are present and predictive:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-infant-temperament-personality-years.html
"Temperament refers to biologically based individual differences in the way people emotionally and behaviorally respond to the world. During infancy, temperament serves as the foundation of later personality. One specific type of temperament, called behavioral inhibition (BI), is characterized by cautious, fearful, and avoidant behavior toward unfamiliar people, objects, and situations. BI has been found to be relatively stable across toddlerhood and childhood, and children with BI have been found to be at greater risk for developing social withdrawal and anxiety disorders than children without BI.
***
"The researchers assessed the infants for BI at 14 months of age. At age 15, these participants returned to the lab to provide neurophysiological data. These neurophysiological measures were used to assess error-related negativity (ERN), which is a negative dip in the electrical signal recorded from the brain that occurs following incorrect responses on computerized tasks. Error-related negativity reflects the degree to which people are sensitive to errors. A larger error-related negativity signal has been associated with internalizing conditions such as anxiety, and a smaller error-related negativity has been associated with externalizing conditions such as impulsivity and substance use. The participants returned at age 26 for assessments of psychopathology, personality, social functioning, and education and employment outcomes.
***
"The researchers found that BI at 14 months of age predicted, at age 26, a more reserved personality, fewer romantic relationships in the past 10 years, and lower social functioning with friends and family. BI at 14 months also predicted higher levels of internalizing psychopathology in adulthood, but only for those who also displayed larger error-related negativity signals at age 15. BI was not associated with externalizing general psychopathology or with education and employment outcomes.
"This study highlights the enduring nature of early temperament on adult outcomes and suggests that neurophysiological markers such as error-related negativity may help identify individuals most at risk for developing internalizing psychopathology in adulthood.
"'We have studied the biology of behavioral inhibition over time and it is clear that it has a profound effect influencing developmental outcome," concluded Dr. Fox."
Comment: A clear cut result.
Brain complexity: early ape pathways for hearing
by David Turell , Monday, April 20, 2020, 23:46 (1678 days ago) @ David Turell
What is found is a forerunner in apes that go back 20 million years of a human language pathway:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-human-language-pathway-brain-million.html
"Scientists have discovered an earlier origin to the human language pathway in the brain, pushing back its evolutionary origin by at least 20 million years.
***
"They discovered a segment of this language pathway in the human brain that interconnects the auditory cortex with frontal lobe regions, important for processing speech and language. Although speech and language are unique to humans, the link via the auditory pathway in other primates suggests an evolutionary basis in auditory cognition and vocal communication.
"Professor Petkov added: "We predicted but could not know for sure whether the human language pathway may have had an evolutionary basis in the auditory system of nonhuman primates. I admit we were astounded to see a similar pathway hiding in plain sight within the auditory system of nonhuman primates."
"The study also illuminates the remarkable transformation of the human language pathway. A key human unique difference was found: the human left side of this brain pathway was stronger and the right side appears to have diverged from the auditory evolutionary prototype to involve non-auditory parts of the brain.
The actual abstract:
"Abstract
The human arcuate fasciculus pathway is crucial for language, interconnecting posterior temporal and inferior frontal areas. Whether a monkey homolog exists is controversial and the nature of human-specific specialization unclear. Using monkey, ape and human auditory functional fields and diffusion-weighted MRI, we identified homologous pathways originating from the auditory cortex. This discovery establishes a primate auditory prototype for the arcuate fasciculus, reveals an earlier phylogenetic origin and illuminates its remarkable transformation."
Comment: As usual I view it as God's preplanning evolution. It is simple to conclude God knew where He was headed.
Brain complexity: early ape pathways for hearing
by dhw, Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 13:18 (1677 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: "Scientists have discovered an earlier origin to the human language pathway in the brain, pushing back its evolutionary origin by at least 20 million years.
DAVID: As usual I view it as God's preplanning evolution. It is simple to conclude God knew where He was headed.
It is simple to conclude that there is a direct line between us and our anthropoid ancestors. If I remember rightly, you used to tell us that your God must have intervened to give us the apparatus for human speech. But I’ll wait for you to confirm this before drawing any conclusions
Brain complexity: early ape pathways for hearing
by David Turell , Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 17:48 (1677 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: "Scientists have discovered an earlier origin to the human language pathway in the brain, pushing back its evolutionary origin by at least 20 million years.
DAVID: As usual I view it as God's preplanning evolution. It is simple to conclude God knew where He was headed.
dhw: It is simple to conclude that there is a direct line between us and our anthropoid ancestors. If I remember rightly, you used to tell us that your God must have intervened to give us the apparatus for human speech. But I’ll wait for you to confirm this before drawing any conclusions
Many adaptations for sapiens speech: high arched palate, dropped larynx, epiglottis airway protection, improved lip and tongue control for a bigger variety of phonemes, recently found cerebellar circuits. Of course a direct line, while it is the cause we debate.
Brain complexity: early ape pathways for hearing
by dhw, Wednesday, April 22, 2020, 11:13 (1677 days ago) @ David Turell
QUOTE: "Scientists have discovered an earlier origin to the human language pathway in the brain, pushing back its evolutionary origin by at least 20 million years."
DAVID: As usual I view it as God's preplanning evolution. It is simple to conclude God knew where He was headed.
dhw: It is simple to conclude that there is a direct line between us and our anthropoid ancestors. If I remember rightly, you used to tell us that your God must have intervened to give us the apparatus for human speech. But I’ll wait for you to confirm this before drawing any conclusions
DAVID: Many adaptations for sapiens speech: high arched palate, dropped larynx, epiglottis airway protection, improved lip and tongue control for a bigger variety of phonemes, recently found cerebellar circuits. Of course a direct line, while it is the cause we debate.
Yes indeed. So do you think your God intervened in order to dabble these adaptations? If not, we have a natural progression. If he intervened, and if his sole purpose was to directly design H. sapiens, why do you think he did a mini-dabble 20 million years ago instead of getting on with the only speech mechanism he actually wanted?
Brain complexity: early ape pathways for hearing
by David Turell , Wednesday, April 22, 2020, 20:36 (1676 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTE: "Scientists have discovered an earlier origin to the human language pathway in the brain, pushing back its evolutionary origin by at least 20 million years."
DAVID: As usual I view it as God's preplanning evolution. It is simple to conclude God knew where He was headed.
dhw: It is simple to conclude that there is a direct line between us and our anthropoid ancestors. If I remember rightly, you used to tell us that your God must have intervened to give us the apparatus for human speech. But I’ll wait for you to confirm this before drawing any conclusions
DAVID: Many adaptations for sapiens speech: high arched palate, dropped larynx, epiglottis airway protection, improved lip and tongue control for a bigger variety of phonemes, recently found cerebellar circuits. Of course a direct line, while it is the cause we debate.
dhw: Yes indeed. So do you think your God intervened in order to dabble these adaptations? If not, we have a natural progression. If he intervened, and if his sole purpose was to directly design H. sapiens, why do you think he did a mini-dabble 20 million years ago instead of getting on with the only speech mechanism he actually wanted?
You keep forgetting that I view God as evolving from bacteria to humans in a slow progression as noted by the recognized time line of evolution. Part of the original plan. No corrective dabble. In my last book I noted a neurosurgeon who spotted an anticipatory vertebral change in a primate ancestor 22 million years ago.
Brain complexity: early ape pathways for hearing
by dhw, Thursday, April 23, 2020, 13:08 (1675 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: Many adaptations for sapiens speech: high arched palate, dropped larynx, epiglottis airway protection, improved lip and tongue control for a bigger variety of phonemes, recently found cerebellar circuits. Of course a direct line, while it is the cause we debate.
dhw: Yes indeed. So do you think your God intervened in order to dabble these adaptations? If not, we have a natural progression. If he intervened, and if his sole purpose was to directly design H. sapiens, why do you think he did a mini-dabble 20 million years ago instead of getting on with the only speech mechanism he actually wanted?
DAVID: You keep forgetting that I view God as evolving from bacteria to humans in a slow progression as noted by the recognized time line of evolution. Part of the original plan. No corrective dabble.
I am not questioning the theory that there was a slow progression from bacteria to all life forms including humans. I am surprised to hear you say there was no dabble. The only theistic alternative you have offered us is a 3.8 billion-year-old programme for all species, innovations, lifestyles, natural wonders etc. Is that what you mean by “the original plan”. A short time ago, you decided that most advances were dabbles. I thought that included the palate, larynx, epiglottis etc. And if it’s neither programme nor dabble, what is the alternative?
Brain complexity: early ape pathways for hearing
by David Turell , Thursday, April 23, 2020, 18:57 (1675 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Many adaptations for sapiens speech: high arched palate, dropped larynx, epiglottis airway protection, improved lip and tongue control for a bigger variety of phonemes, recently found cerebellar circuits. Of course a direct line, while it is the cause we debate.
dhw: Yes indeed. So do you think your God intervened in order to dabble these adaptations? If not, we have a natural progression. If he intervened, and if his sole purpose was to directly design H. sapiens, why do you think he did a mini-dabble 20 million years ago instead of getting on with the only speech mechanism he actually wanted?
DAVID: You keep forgetting that I view God as evolving from bacteria to humans in a slow progression as noted by the recognized time line of evolution. Part of the original plan. No corrective dabble.
dhw: I am not questioning the theory that there was a slow progression from bacteria to all life forms including humans. I am surprised to hear you say there was no dabble. The only theistic alternative you have offered us is a 3.8 billion-year-old programme for all species, innovations, lifestyles, natural wonders etc. Is that what you mean by “the original plan”. A short time ago, you decided that most advances were dabbles. I thought that included the palate, larynx, epiglottis etc. And if it’s neither programme nor dabble, what is the alternative?
A long time ago I proposed God either pre-planned evolution or did a course correction dabble now and then, based on my decision to conclude God ran the process of evolution starting with bacteria (Archaea). As a human making such a guess about God's actions, perhaps I am missing a third approach. Dabbling comes from a doubt that God is absolutely prescient in seeing the future without error, as religions claim. And that admits I am conceding some weakness in God, which is a form of humanizing Him. It is certainly possible that an all-powerful, all- knowing God never has to dabble. It is my distrust of religious descriptions of God that had me thinking in that manner. dhw gets worried when I change my mind, but all of us are allowed a re-think! dhw constantly/rigidly holds me to previous thoughts, which is unfair as new thinking occurs, based in part on his reasonable/unreasonable criticisms, and my own constant self-analysis. Even if he is on his picket fence, his thoughts are not higher than mine.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 01:42 (1678 days ago) @ David Turell
More on early baby temperament predicting a portion of adult personality:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/seeing-the-adult-in-the-infant?utm_source=Cosmos+-+M...
"Researchers found that toddlers who displayed behavioural inhibition – cautious and fearful behaviours when exposed to unfamiliar people, objects and situations – became more reserved, introverted and less socially active as adults.
"And as teens, those that showed more intense brain activity after making mistakes in a computer task were more likely to develop symptoms of anxiety and depression, reports the study published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
“'Children show different behavioural styles very early in development,” explains lead author Alva Tang from the University of Maryland in the US.
***
"The finding that behaviourally inhibited infants became more reserved, introverted adults with lower social functioning extends other studies that tested children from three to six years of age.
"Various theories propose this occurs due to interactions between infant temperament and the environment.
“'As people age, personality might become increasingly stable due to the accumulation of and reinforcement from consistent experiences selected or created by the individuals,” the authors write.
"As an example, they suggest parents of behaviourally inhibited children might be overprotective, thus reinforcing the child’s temperament and social interactions.
"Children who are fearful of new social situations may avoid them and thus prevent opportunities for social learning and friendship building.
"Intriguingly, early inhibition was not related to career and education or romantic relationship outcomes, adding to other inconclusive findings in these regards.
"Tang suggests several possible reasons for this, including methodological or generational differences.
“'Alternatively,” she says, “it could mean that even though behaviourally inhibited infants have worse social functioning in some domains, they are by and large able to function effectively in society.”
"By revealing neural activity associated with anxiety disorders in adulthood, the study also gives insights into risk versus resilience, providing an opportunity to intervene.
“'These findings highlight the enduring nature of early temperament, which shapes long-term personality and wellbeing,” Tang says, “and suggests that neurophysiological markers could help identify individuals who are most at risk for internalising psychopathology in adulthood.'”
Comment: The objections to some of the studies' findings are valid, but miss the fact that adult personality is many faceted, and the study covers one small aspect. Autobiographical note: as a young teenager I remember being tentative about trying new things, yet I have had a very successful life, top of the class grades, career, and two marriages.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by dhw, Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 13:11 (1677 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: We disagree about the blank slate concept of baby brains. My view is they are a blank slate before any new experience, but have an inherited background of tendencies for types of personality development. dhw's view was much more strict, noting that if the brain arrived with tendencies, it couldn't be called blank. A lot of semantic nothingness debate.
QUOTES: These neurophysiological measures were used to assess error-related negativity (ERN), which is a negative dip in the electrical signal recorded from the brain that occurs following incorrect responses on computerized tasks.
This study highlights the enduring nature of early temperament on adult outcomes and suggests that neurophysiological markers such as error-related negativity may help identify individuals most at risk for developing internalizing psychopathology in adulthood.
If the neurophysiological markers are present at birth, I don’t see how you can call the brain a blank at birth. It was you who used the word in the first place. I agree that it’s a nothingness debate. Quite clearly the brain is not a blank at birth.
Brain complexity: baby brains under study
by David Turell , Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 19:26 (1677 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: We disagree about the blank slate concept of baby brains. My view is they are a blank slate before any new experience, but have an inherited background of tendencies for types of personality development. dhw's view was much more strict, noting that if the brain arrived with tendencies, it couldn't be called blank. A lot of semantic nothingness debate.
QUOTES: These neurophysiological measures were used to assess error-related negativity (ERN), which is a negative dip in the electrical signal recorded from the brain that occurs following incorrect responses on computerized tasks.
This study highlights the enduring nature of early temperament on adult outcomes and suggests that neurophysiological markers such as error-related negativity may help identify individuals most at risk for developing internalizing psychopathology in adulthood.
dhw: If the neurophysiological markers are present at birth, I don’t see how you can call the brain a blank at birth. It was you who used the word in the first place. I agree that it’s a nothingness debate. Quite clearly the brain is not a blank at birth.
We still take different views of blank slate, with no real difference.
Brain complexity: very orderly connectome
by David Turell , Thursday, September 17, 2020, 00:30 (1529 days ago) @ David Turell
There is lots more white matter than grey matter in the brain. It is all the connecting axons and they are surprisingly orderly:
https://mindmatters.ai/2020/09/the-human-brain-has-given-researchers-a-big-surprise/
"Scientists have long thought that white matter didn’t play an active role in the brain, but new research has shown that this is untrue and that white matter actively affects both how the brain learns and how it dysfunctions.
***
"But a new study suggests that our mental circuitry is more like Manhattan’s organised grid than London’s chaotic tangle. It consists of sheets of fibres that intersect at right angles, with no diagonals anywhere to be seen.
"Van Wedeen from Massachusetts General Hospital, who led the study, says that his results came as a complete shock. “I was expecting it to be a pure mess,” he says. Instead, he found a regular criss-cross pattern like the interlocking fibres of a piece of cloth.
"Wedeen’s maps may not reveal all the details about the brain’s network, but it does show how that network is structured. “If you look at brain connections in an adult human, it’s really a massive puzzle how something so complex can emerge,” says Behrens. “If we can establish any sort of organisation, we get a clue about how these things grow. If it obeys some rules, you could start to work out how it follows those rules. You have something to hang onto.”
***
"Many surprises. Scientists have been amazed to see that, instead of chaos, the connecting fibers are organized into an orderly 3D grid, where axons run up and down and left and right, minus any diagonals or tangles. Science magazine compares the brain’s 3D layout to New York City, with its streets running in two directions and buildings’ elevators running up and down. Strangely, in flat areas of the grid, the fibers overlap at precise 90 degree angles and weave together much like a fabric, the scientists say.
***
"while the healthy brain is a small-world network, the schizophrenic brain is measurably less so—it can still be organized into modules, but those modules aren’t as densely connected. If small-worldness helps the brain undertake a variety of processes effectively and efficiently, its lack in the schizophrenic brain could someday help to explain the disease’s symptoms."
Comment: this strict organization reeks of design. The comment on Schizophrenia simply tells us we have to use the brain we are given and make me more sure of dualism as I view it.
Brain complexity: the gut influences the brain
by David Turell , Wednesday, December 05, 2018, 20:55 (2180 days ago) @ David Turell
The gut microbiome ,salt intake and gut function has direct influence on the brain:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-new-connection-between-the-gut-and-the-bra...
"It is well known that a high salt diet leads to high blood pressure, a risk factor for an array of health problems, including heart disease and stroke. But over the last decade, studies across human populations have reported the association between salt intake and stroke irrespective of high blood pressure and risk of heart disease, suggesting a missing link between salt intake and brain health.
"Interestingly, there is a growing body of work showing that there is communication between the gut and brain, now commonly dubbed the gut–brain axis. The disruption of the gut–brain axis contributes to a diverse range of diseases, including Parkinson’s disease and irritable bowel syndrome. Consequently, the developing field of gut–brain axis research is rapidly growing and evolving. Five years ago, a couple of studies showed that high salt intake leads to profound immune changes in the gut, resulting in increased vulnerability of the brain to autoimmunity—when the immune system attacks its own healthy cells and tissues by mistake, suggesting that perhaps the gut can communicate with the brain via immune signaling.
"Now, new research shows another connection: immune signals sent from the gut can compromise the brain’s blood vessels, leading to deteriorated brain heath and cognitive impairment. Surprisingly, the research unveils a previously undescribed gut–brain connection mediated by the immune system and indicates that excessive salt might negatively impact brain health in humans through impairing the brain’s blood vessels regardless of its effect on blood pressure.
***
"The researchers used mice, and found that immune responses in the small intestines set off a cascade of chemical responses reaching the brain’s blood vessels, reducing blood flow to the cortex and hippocampus, two brain regions crucial for learning and memory. This, in turn, brought a decline in tests of cognitive performance. The impairment in learning and memory was clear even in the absence of high blood pressure; they observed that the gut is reacting to the salt overload and directing immune signals that lay the basis for deterioration throughout the brain’s vital vascular complex and compromise cognitive function. While this study has only been carried out on research animals so far, the scientists believe it's likely that much of the same applies to people.
***
"The implications of this newly identified gut–brain connection extend to several autoimmune disorders, including multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis, psoriasis, and inflammatory bowel disease, that have been shown to activate the same immune signaling pathway implicated in this study. These autoimmune disorders have a high stroke risk and are linked to poorly functioning blood vessels in the nervous system. This research is also a demonstration that what we eat affects how we think, and that seemingly isolated parts of the body can play vital roles in brain health. These results motivate research on how everyday stressors to our digestive systems and blood vessels might change the brain and, consequently, how we see, and experience, the world."
Comment: The gut communicates with the brain through the Vagus nerve and through humeral substances in the blood.
Brain complexity: forming cortex folds; new study
by David Turell , Sunday, July 05, 2020, 19:52 (1602 days ago) @ David Turell
A followup on previous studies:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/science/biology/understanding-how-brains-fold-and-misfold/
"In a pre-clinical study using animal models, a team led by Australia’s RMIT University identified the genes linked with the development of the two types of brain folds – inward and outward – in the brain’s grey matter.
"Writing in the journal Cerebral Cortex, they report finding differences in both genetic expression and neuron shape during the folding process.
***
"The researchers say previous studies have focussed on white matter or looked at animals with smooth brains rather than folded ones, largely overlooking grey matter. Grey matter is made up of neuron bodies and their connecting arms; white matter comprises the neurons’ long nerve fibres and their protective layer of fat.
"The latest evidence suggests grey matter in the developing brain expands faster than white matter, creating mechanical instability that leads to brain folding. The resulting “hill” and “valley” folds follow a similar pattern in all folded brains of the same species.
"Tolcos and colleagues investigated the genetic and microstructural differences in future grey matter, the cortical plate, in the parts of the brain just beneath the “hills” and “valleys”. These areas were analysed at three points of development: when the brain was smooth, semi-folded and fully folded.
“'We found some genes have higher expression in regions that fold outward and lower expression in regions that fold inwards. Other genes reverse this pattern,” says RMIT’s Sebastian Quezada Rojas.
“'Together, these genetic expression patterns might explain why the cortical folding pattern is so consistent between individuals of the same species.”
"These genetic differences are also correlated with changes in grey matter neurons, with the study finding variations in the number of arms – or dendrites – that neurons grow in these regions during the folding process.
“'We believe the regions that fold outward and inward are programmed to behave differently, and the shape of the neurons affects the way these areas fold,” Quezada Rojas says."
Comment: The old idea that rapid growth forced the folding is incorrect. These folds are purposely planned. More evidence of purposeful design.
Brain complexity: plasticity and complexification methods
by David Turell , Monday, July 06, 2020, 23:31 (1601 days ago) @ David Turell
How microglia brain cells have controls related to both of these processes:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-07-neurons-immune-cells-paths-brain.html
"In recent years, scientists have discovered that the brain's dedicated immune cells, called microglia, can help get rid of unnecessary connections between neurons, perhaps by engulfing synapses and breaking them down. But the new study, published July 1, 2020 in Cell, finds microglia can also do the opposite—making way for new synapses to form by chomping away at the dense web of proteins between cells, clearing a space so neurons can find one another.
***
"...neurobiologists are starting to realize that the ECM, which makes up about 20 percent of the brain, actually plays a role in important processes like learning and memory. At a certain point in brain development, for example, the solidifying ECM seems to put the brakes on the rapid pace at which new neuronal connections turn over in babies, seemingly shifting the brain's priority from the breakneck adaptation to the new world around it, to a more stable maintenance of knowledge over time. Scientists also wonder if a stiffening of the extracellular matrix later in life might somehow correspond to the memory challenges that come with aging.
***
"Knowing that microglia chew away at obsolete synapses, they expected that disrupting microglia function would cause the number of synapses in the hippocampus to shoot up. Instead, synapse numbers dropped. And where they thought they'd find pieces of synapses being broken down in the "bellies" of microglia, instead they found pieces of the ECM.
"'In this case microglia were eating something different than we expected," Molofsky said. "They're eating the space around synapses—removing obstructions to help new synapses to form."
***
"Before springing into action, the microglia wait for a signal from neurons, an immune molecule called IL-33, indicating that it's time for a new synapse to form, the study found.
***
"'I'm in love with the extracellular matrix," Molofsky said. "A lot of people don't realize that the brain is made up not just of nerve cells, but also cells that keep the brain healthy, and even the space in between cells is packed with fascinating interactions."
Comment: The brain ECM is very fatty and has the consistency of jello. The fat is the insulation that protects from short circuits. We see how the processes work, but this does not tell us about the guiding information that the cells use to alter the brains connection and networks. Note the same molecule is at work during the development of the baby brain in utero and after.
Brain complexity: neuron molecular synapse controls
by David Turell , Saturday, April 17, 2021, 21:48 (1316 days ago) @ David Turell
Extremely complex use by lncRNA:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-04-neural-plasticity-noncoding-rna-journey.html
"A new study from scientists at Scripps Research and the Max Planck Florida Institute for Neuroscience finds a central role for one signaling molecule, a long, noncoding RNA that the scientists named ADEPTR.
"Using a variety of technologies, including confocal and two-photon microscopy, they track ADEPTR's moves, watching as it forms, travels, amasses at the synapse and activates other proteins upon a neuron's stimulation.
"Its journey to the far reaches of a brain cell is made possible by a cellular carrier that that tiptoes along a dendrite's microtubule scaffolding. Called a kinesin motor, it deposits ADEPTR near the synapse junction, where it activates other proteins.
"The team also found that if ADEPTR is silenced, new synapses don't form during stimulation.
***
"'Here we report activity-dependent dendritic targeting of a newly transcribed long noncoding RNA for modulating synapse function, and describe its underlying mechanisms," Puthanveettil says. "These studies bring novel insights into the functions of long noncoding RNAs at the synapse."
***
"A long noncoding RNA is a type of RNA that exceeds 200 nucleotides, and does not get translated into protein. There are thousands of these long noncoding RNA in our cells, but in most cases, their function isn't yet known. What is known is that usually, they tend to stay within the cell nucleus. Some regulate the transcription of genes.
"'It was surprising to see a long noncoding RNA move from nucleus to the synapse so rapidly and robustly," Grinman says. (my bold)
"The hippocampus is the part of the brain where learning, memory and emotions reside. Working in hippocampal neurons from mice, the team stimulated the neurons with pharmacological activators of learning-related signaling. They found through molecular and high-resolution imaging techniques that the ADEPTR long noncoding RNA was rapidly expressed and transported to the outer arms of the cell. There, the ADEPTR molecules interact with proteins that play a role in structural organization of synapses, proteins called spectrin 1 and ankyrin B.
"They found that ADEPTR became downregulated if exposed to an inhibitory neurotransmitter, GABA.
"'These findings add another layer of complexity in synapse modulation and plasticity," Puthanveettil says. "Synaptically localized long noncoding RNA are important regulators of adaptive neuronal function.'"
Comment: Note the bold. Why are they so surprised at the finding? The deeper they go the more complexity will be found, until it is finally recognized universally there must be a designing mind creating. GABA has a long history of recognition as a major player in the brain .
Brain complexity: circadian controls in other organs
by David Turell , Tuesday, June 04, 2019, 18:48 (1999 days ago) @ dhw
It seems our internal organs have their own circadian clocks independent of the brain clock:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-05-body-day-night-independently-brain.html
"Can your liver sense when you're staring at a television screen or cellphone late at night? Apparently so, and when such activity is detected, the organ can throw your circadian rhythms out of whack, leaving you more susceptible to health problems.
"That's one of the takeaways from two new studies by University of California, Irvine scientists working in collaboration with the Institute for Research in Biomedicine in Barcelona, Spain.
"The studies, published today in the journal Cell, used specially bred mice to analyze the network of internal clocks that regulate metabolism. Although researchers had suspected that the body's various circadian clocks could operate independently from the central clock in the hypothalamus of the brain, there was previously no way to test the theory, said Paolo Sassone-Corsi, director of UCI's Center for Epigenetics and Metabolism and senior author of one of the studies.
***
"'The results were quite surprising," said Sassone-Corsi, Donald Bren Professor of Biological Chemistry. "No one realized that the liver or skin could be so directly affected by light."
For example, despite the shutdown of all other body clocks, including the central brain clock, the liver knew what time it was, responded to light changes as day shifted to night and maintained critical functions, such as preparing to digest food at mealtime and converting glucose to energy.
"Somehow, the liver's circadian clock was able to detect light, presumably via signals from other organs. Only when the mice were subjected to constant darkness did the liver's clock stop functioning.
***
"In earlier studies, Sassone-Corsi has examined how circadian clocks can be rewired by such factors as sleep deprivation, diet and exercise. Exposure to computer, television or cellphone light just before bed can also scramble internal clocks.
"Because of modern lifestyles, it's easy for people's circadian systems to get confused, he said. In turn, that can lead to depression, allergies, premature aging, cancer and other health problems. Further mice experiments could uncover ways to make human internal clocks "less misaligned," Sassone-Corsi added. "
Comment: It is obvious that our bodies had to adapt to a 24-hour day during evolution to function properly at different times of activity, sleep, eating, etc. Chance development would have created confusion in functions, in a trail and error attempt. Only design fits.
New brain complexity: relational thinking
by David Turell , Friday, May 19, 2017, 14:15 (2745 days ago) @ David Turell
Old entry: 12/14/2014: Also crucial to their finding was a study led by Oxford University neuroscientist Matthew Rushworth that compared neural patterns in humans and macaque monkeys. While human and non-human primates were found to share similarities in the frontal and parietal brain regions, activity in the human rostrolateral prefrontal cortex differed significantly from that of the macaque monkey's frontal cortex, the study found.
Studies continue. Macaques have similar brain circuits to ours in following videos:
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/monkeys-have-a-brain-circuit-for-analysing-social-in...
A new dimension to our deep evolutionary connection with rhesus macaques – “old world” monkeys – was revealed after researchers identified a region of the brain exclusively used to deconstruct social interactions.
Using whole-brain functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), two researchers from the Rockefeller University in New York showed the monkeys videos of other monkeys interacting with each other and with objects.
They found neural networks in the part of the brain associated with visual processing were highly active when the monkeys watched videos of monkey–monkey interactions, such as grooming, playing and fighting. The researchers also observed another neural network that specifically activated when watching these videos.
These brain circuitry patterns resemble the human brain systems associated with social connections, showing that these primates have a high level of social cognition.
In the video above, we can see the directions of one monkey’s gaze, indicated by a red dot.
Comment: See the video. Obviously if we accept the theory of common descent we will have similar brain patterns of connections in our brains when compared to monkeys. what thee studies cannot tell us is depth of interest and understanding, the thought pattern of the macaques, that is pre-frontal lobe interpretation that we humans might imply.