Species consciousness and instinct. (Introduction)
by David Turell , Sunday, October 20, 2013, 00:50 (4053 days ago)
The cell memory debate has stirred my brain to delve deeper. Using the Monarch butterfly as an example, how could the migration possibly work? The round trip from Mexico to the US and back again involves, three to four generations of adults at each end, while going through a metamorphosis for each generation. This means the guy who flies north from Mexico is several generations removed from the guy who flies south, and even more generations from the guy who repeats the flight north again. -The cell memory issue brought up species consciousness. I'm am fairly convinced from Sheldrake's work that there is human species consciousness, and he has good evidence for lower species consciousness (blue tit studies, for example). There are rat studies (forgot the researcher's name)that are very supportive.-It might be reasonabale to conclude there is monarch species consciousness to carry the instinct. From the studies from near-to-death, or as Sam Parnia calls it, actual death, it has been proposed the brain is a receiver of the mechanism of consciousness. Now assume that species consciousness exists at a quantum level of reality (Heisenberg, Kestner)and affects the brain from that vantage point, it makes a workable theory. The instinct is stored at a quantum level in the brain cells. -And for transplant memory make a similar assumption. Whole organs may stir species consciousness into action in the individual. I'm not assuming single cell consciousness. Organs are transplanted. The sum of all the cells might carry a signal of the consciousness.-Any thoughts, anyone?
Species consciousness and instinct.
by dhw, Monday, October 21, 2013, 14:59 (4051 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: It might be reasonable to conclude there is monarch species consciousness to carry the instinct. From the studies from near-to-death, or as Sam Parnia calls it, actual death, it has been proposed the brain is a receiver of the mechanism of consciousness. Now assume that species consciousness exists at a quantum level of reality (Heisenberg, Kestner)and affects the brain from that vantage point, it makes a workable theory. The instinct is stored at a quantum level in the brain cells. And for transplant memory make a similar assumption. Whole organs may stir species consciousness into action in the individual. I'm not assuming single cell consciousness. Organs are transplanted. The sum of all the cells might carry a signal of the consciousness. Any thoughts, anyone?-The list of incidents concerning transplant patients whose lifestyles have changed in accordance with the tastes and habits of the donors, and who remember facts that could only have been known to the donors, makes it clear that unless there is wholesale cheating going on, some cell communities (organs) retain individual characteristics and memories, and are able not only to pass them onto other cell communities, but can even change the make-up of those communities (e.g. sexual orientation, taste). Quite apart from the suggestion that the brain is not the only container of memory (in contrast to what you say above), all of this has far-reaching implications. Without memory it is impossible to learn and to innovate. David, you have singled out species consciousness and instinct. If cell communities (organs) can retain and communicate individual memories, as seems to be the case, there is no reason why they should not also retain collective memories at a less conscious level. This would account for your Monarch butterfly's migration. It would also mean that when we are born, our cells already contain species consciousness and instinct (both of which would be linked to memory), as handed down from generation to generation of cell communities. In the course of our individual lives, these are added to and shaped by the experiences of the organism as a whole. And so while each cell and cell community performs its respective physical functions, they also interact with one another sharing memories and new experiences (which eventually become memories). This process is clearly essential during innovation too, since each cell community must cooperate with the others, using the knowledge gained through each kind of memory, but also adding knowledge of new conditions, just as the brain and apparently the heart add new experiences to their memory storehouse and use them to change the organism as a whole. -Those are my immediate thoughts in response to the phenomenon of cell memory as apparently demonstrated by the experiences of organ recipients.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by David Turell , Monday, October 21, 2013, 19:48 (4051 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: The list of incidents concerning transplant patients whose lifestyles have changed in accordance with the tastes and habits of the donors, and who remember facts that could only have been known to the donors, makes it clear that unless there is wholesale cheating going on, some cell communities (organs) retain individual characteristics and memories, and are able not only to pass them onto other cell communities, but can even change the make-up of those communities (e.g. sexual orientation, taste). Quite apart from the suggestion that the brain is not the only container of memory (in contrast to what you say above), all of this has far-reaching implications.-Your statement, I think only supports my suggesting that species consciousness contains memory. You need to read Sheldrake's studies. For example, a cross word puzzle is published in London on Monday and the same puzzle appears in Liverpool on Tuesday. The Liverpudlians solve it faster than the Londoners!!!-The story about blue tits drinking cream off the top of the milk bottles in WWII is the same. Before WWII they learned to do it. No cream during the war and they lost the habit pattern or instinct. When cream returned after the war, the later generations of blue tits relearned it faster.-> > dhw; Without memory it is impossible to learn and to innovate. David, you have singled out species consciousness and instinct. If cell communities (organs) can retain and communicate individual memories, as seems to be the case, there is no reason why they should not also retain collective memories at a less conscious level. This would account for your Monarch butterfly's migration. ..... This process is clearly essential during innovation too, since each cell community must cooperate with the others, using the knowledge gained through each kind of memory, but also adding knowledge of new conditions, just as the brain and apparently the heart add new experiences to their memory storehouse and use them to change the organism as a whole. -Again, you pursue hunt and peck to create complicated organs. Pipedream.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by dhw, Tuesday, October 22, 2013, 21:12 (4050 days ago) @ David Turell
All our discussions are centring again on the nature of the cell, and I will try to draw them together on this one thread. Ants: you persist with your example of them finding the way, and refuse to consider the mantis example and the building of giant cities to house, shelter, rear and feed millions of inhabitants. Your focus on biochemicals is the equivalent of the atheist materialist insisting that since science has shown the biochemical processes at work during human thought, it will only be a matter of time before science finds a biochemical explanation of thought. You focus on the biochemical processes that accompany perception, memory and responses in ants, and assume there is no ability to put facts together, plan strategies, take decisions. You do the same with cells and cell communities. But this is assumption and not scientific fact. How does one distinguish between what seems to be intelligent and what is intelligent?-dhw: The list of incidents concerning transplant patients [...] makes it clear that[...] some cell communities (organs) retain individual characteristics and memories, and are able not only to pass them onto other cell communities, but can even change the make-up of those communities (e.g. sexual orientation, taste). Quite apart from the suggestion that the brain is not the only container of memory (in contrast to what you say above), all of this has far-reaching implications.-DAVID: Your statement, I think only supports my suggesting that species consciousness contains memory. But these cases differ completely from species consciousness, since they focus on the ability of cell communities to take on and transfer individual characteristics and memories, and to influence other cell communities in the new body. Both concepts involve memory.-DAVID: You need to quote a large study of transplant recipients to make your version stick.-I'm prepared at least provisionally to accept the veracity of these cases, just as I accept the veracity of certain NDE cases ... particularly when otherwise unknowable information is authenticated by third parties. I have no explanation for either kind of experience, but take both seriously enough to speculate on their implications. If individual characteristics and memories can be transferred from one cell community to another, this may suggest that cells in all creatures inherit more general memories that guide their instincts and some form of species consciousness. It may also suggest that cells and cell communities can cooperate to incorporate something new ... essential to the process of evolutionary innovation ... and can use memory to change one another.-DAVID: Again, you pursue hunt and peck to create complicated organs. Pipedream.-There is no hunt and peck. Your own hypothesis entails your God preprogramming organisms to produce innovations through cellular cooperation in accordance with environmental conditions. There is no difference in the process itself. But mine has the cells deliberately cooperating (possibly with an intelligence provided by your God) instead of being preprogrammed to come up with the same combination. You complain that my hypothesis is not borne out by biochemistry, and I have asked you to name any biochemist who supports your own. Your response is that "Larry Moran certainly won't refer to the divine." 90% of biochemists are against you, and I wonder how many of the remaining 10% favour the divine preprogramming of eukaryotes to produce all the innovations leading to humans. In response to my Archie Optrex fairy tale, you wrote: "As an author and playwright your imagination is marvelous." As a scientist and non-fiction writer, you do pretty well yourself. I would never dare to conjure up an imaginary, self-aware being that came from nowhere, can create whole universes and yet also the tiniest conceivable organisms which he packs with programmes that over billions of years transform them into billions of extraordinary machines without their even knowing what they're doing. I won't say nobody would believe me, but I certainly wouldn't believe myself!-DAVID: Please remember that sentient means receiving signals and sensations and reacting to them.-Many definitions include the word "conscious" or "aware", which I take to mean aware of the signals and, above all, the sensations or feelings. Otherwise, they would not need to change. That does not mean they are self-aware, abstract-thinking philosophers. However, I do not think "sentient beings" can be automatons (which have no feelings). Similarly I think that Shapiro himself and Margulis and Albrecht-Buehler use words like conscious and intelligent to mean aware of feelings and perceptions, and able to assess information, take decisions, communicate, solve problems. We know Margulis was an agnostic, and Albrecht-Buehler emphatically rejects the ID movement, so I fear you cannot count these scientists among your allies in a world of biochemistry which by and large unequivocally rejects your theory of divinely preprogrammed automatons. If random mutations seem increasingly unlikely, perhaps Margulis and Co have opened up a "third way".
Species consciousness and instinct.
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 23, 2013, 01:41 (4050 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: Ants: you persist with your example of them finding the way, and refuse to consider the mantis example and the building of giant cities to house, shelter, rear and feed millions of inhabitants.-I still consider this instinct built over centuries of development by systems we do not yet understand and aided by species consciousness.-> dhw: You focus on the biochemical processes that accompany perception, memory and responses in ants, and assume there is no ability to put facts together, plan strategies, take decisions. You do the same with cells and cell communities. But this is assumption and not scientific fact. How does one distinguish between what seems to be intelligent and what is intelligent?-You are anthropomorphizing cells. Cells do not think. For the umpteenth time they work on information they have been given. To quote Shapiro: (paraphrased in his words): A paradigm shift in our thinking about biologic evolution [requires] " a shift from thinking about gradual selection of localized random changes to sudden genome restructuring by sensory-influenced cell systems." Notice that Shapiro is saying that the cells are systematically organized to respond to sensory stimuli. And further: [There are]" cognitive networks and cellular functions for self-modification [epigenetics]. The emphasis is systemic rather than atomistic and information-based rather than stochastic." Taken from his concluding paragraphs in his book. Note information based!!!Please read his book. > > dhw: But these cases differ completely from species consciousness, since they focus on the ability of cell communities to take on and transfer individual characteristics and memories, and to influence other cell communities in the new body. Both concepts involve memory.-But memory involves consciousness. > > dhw: I'm prepared at least provisionally to accept the veracity of these cases, just as I accept the veracity of certain NDE cases ... particularly when otherwise unknowable information is authenticated by third parties. I have no explanation for either kind of experience, but take both seriously enough to speculate on their implications. If individual characteristics and memories can be transferred from one cell community to another, this may suggest that cells in all creatures inherit more general memories that guide their instincts and some form of species consciousness. It may also suggest that cells and cell communities can cooperate to incorporate something new ... essential to the process of evolutionary innovation ... and can use memory to change one another.-I agree about NDE's and these transplant memories may have some validity if you consider species consciousness as a factor. Read sheldrake's works. > > DAVID: Again, you pursue hunt and peck to create complicated organs. Pipedream. > > dhw:There is no hunt and peck. Your own hypothesis entails your God preprogramming organisms to produce innovations through cellular cooperation in accordance with environmental conditions. There is no difference in the process itself. But mine has the cells deliberately cooperating (possibly with an intelligence provided by your God) instead of being preprogrammed to come up with the same combination. -Pre-programming as I view it leads to humans. Many lifestyles are developed epigenetically because life is built to be so inventive, a la Shapiro.-> dhw: You complain that my hypothesis is not borne out by biochemistry, and I have asked you to name any biochemist who supports your own. Your response is that "Larry Moran certainly won't refer to the divine." 90% of biochemists are against you, and I wonder how many of the remaining 10% favour the divine preprogramming of eukaryotes to produce all the innovations leading to humans.-Silly strawman argument. I haven't been to a medical convention where biochemistry is presented in years, I have every right to my own interpretations. 90% atheism is just human egotism, when these guys are so educated and accomplished they think they can out-think everything and solve everything without philosophy. > > DAVID: Please remember that sentient means receiving signals and sensations and reacting to them. > > dhw: Many definitions include the word "conscious" or "aware", which I take to mean aware of the signals and, above all, the sensations or feelings. Otherwise, they would not need to change. That does not mean they are self-aware, abstract-thinking philosophers. However, I do not think "sentient beings" can be automatons (which have no feelings). Similarly I think that Shapiro himself and Margulis and Albrecht-Buehler use words like conscious and intelligent to mean aware of feelings and perceptions, and able to assess information, take decisions, communicate, solve problems..... If random mutations seem increasingly unlikely, perhaps Margulis and Co have opened up a "third way".-See Shapiro above. The third way is epigenetics and the read/write digital system of DNA."'Natural genetic engineering'explains evolutionary processes that preceded people by 3,000 million years." Lynn Margulis, quoting one of Shapiro's favorite phrases, taken from the back cover of the book.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by dhw, Wednesday, October 23, 2013, 14:21 (4049 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Ants: you persist with your example of them finding the way, and refuse to consider the mantis example and the building of giant cities to house, shelter, rear and feed millions of inhabitants.-DAVID: I still consider this instinct built over centuries of development by systems we do not yet understand and aided by species consciousness.-We don't understand how ants can work out strategies to meet innumerable situations, but we can be quite sure they don't work out strategies to meet innumerable situations! As for their city-building, no doubt the skills and knowledge are passed from generation to generation, once they've been acquired (= innovation). Possibly taught, possibly passed on through "species consciousness" or memory. Prior to the invention of writing, we humans did things the same way.-DAVID: You are anthropomorphizing cells. Cells do not think. For the umpteenth time they work on information they have been given. -For the umpteenth time, I do not see cells as thinking like humans. All organisms, including your dog and you, work on information, some of which is inborn and some acquired. That doesn't mean the information has to be given to them by God, or that God has to preprogramme their responses.-DAVID: To quote Shapiro: (paraphrased in his words): A paradigm shift in our thinking about biologic evolution [requires] " a shift from thinking about gradual selection of localized random changes to sudden genome restructuring by sensory-influenced cell systems." Notice that Shapiro is saying that the cells are systematically organized to respond to sensory stimuli. -Of course they are. No cell community (organism) ... including us ... can adapt to a new environment without being sensually aware of it. And you and I have long since frowned on random changes.-DAVID: And further: [There are]" cognitive networks and cellular functions for self-modification [epigenetics]."-"Cognitive" entails acquiring and utilizing knowledge through understanding, learning, and even reasoning (even if not in the human way). First the information is acquired (senses) and then decisions are made (cognitive networks). There is nothing in this phrase that contradicts the concept of intelligence at work in the process of self-modification (innovation). DAVID: "The emphasis is systemic rather than atomistic and information-based rather than stochastic." Intelligent design, by God or by cells, has to be systemic and information-based and not stochastic. And once you have multicellular organisms, all the cell communities have to cooperate to bring about change. The intelligent cell concept also rejects stochastic randomness.-DAVID: Taken from his concluding paragraphs in his book. Note information based!!!Please read his book.-All invention has to be information based. You claim that God not only planted the information but also planted the decisions based on the information. My alternative is that cells over billions of years acquire information, and by combining their intelligences are able to take their own decisions. It remains open whether or not a god gave them that intelligence. I wish I had time to read all the books you recommend. As it is, I rely on you to provide the evidence for your own case and for your criticism of my alternatives. The evidence you have provided is, at the very best, ambiguous.-DAVID: I agree about NDE's and these transplant memories may have some validity if you consider species consciousness as a factor. I don't understand your insistence that individual memories are dependent on species consciousness. What has the identity of a child murderer or a sudden change of sexual orientation got to do with species consciousness? Validation of transplant memories, as with NDEs, can only come about through confirmation of the information by independent third parties. This appears to have happened in certain cases of NDEs and heart transplants. -dhw: 90% of biochemists are against you, and I wonder how many of the remaining 10% favour the divine preprogramming of eukaryotes to produce all the innovations leading to humans.-DAVID: Silly strawman argument. I haven't been to a medical convention where biochemistry is presented in years, I have every right to my own interpretations.-Of course you have. And so do atheists and agnostics. That's why you and I keep talking (and I hope we'll go on talking)! I raise the argument because you insist that cellular intelligence runs contrary to the findings of biochemistry. I'm not convinced, and have pointed out that your own hypothesis has no backing from biochemists either. If you slug me, cowboy, I shall slug you back!-DAVID: 90% atheism is just human egotism, when these guys are so educated and accomplished they think they can out-think everything and solve everything without philosophy.-You don't seem to appreciate how difficult it is to believe in an eternal, infinite, unknown, unknowable, invisible, inexplicable power. For those of us who cannot conceive of such a power, it's only logical that we look for alternatives. This is not egotism, and I don't believe for one second that even 90% of atheists are so arrogant as to believe they will find all the answers. You shouldn't judge a set of people only by those who shout loudest.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 23, 2013, 15:45 (4049 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: I do not see cells as thinking like humans. All organisms, including your dog and you, work on information, some of which is inborn and some acquired. That doesn't mean the information has to be given to them by God, or that God has to preprogramme their responses.-To repeat my thoughts abot God and evolution, and straighten out your interpretation of them: God created life and evolution to end up with human beings. Why He chose this approach has no answer. He gave life extreme inventiveness in epigenetics. This is why we see so many strange and wonderful approaches to a multitude of different life styles. Thus He didn't design everything. He gave living organisms the ability to respond with unique answers.-> > dhw; No cell community (organism) ... including us ... can adapt to a new environment without being sensually aware of it. And you and I have long since frowned on random changes.-Agreed > > DAVID: And further: [There are]" cognitive networks and cellular functions for self-modification [epigenetics]." > > dhw: "Cognitive" entails acquiring and utilizing knowledge through understanding, learning, and even reasoning (even if not in the human way). First the information is acquired (senses) and then decisions are made (cognitive networks). There is nothing in this phrase that contradicts the concept of intelligence at work in the process of self-modification (innovation).-My thought is that the cells use intelligent information, which removes the implication that cells themselves are intelligent. An analogy is we go to the library or Google to find intelligent information to use. Cells have no brains and their intelligent information is implanted, passed down through cell division, and gained in their past. Life is a continuous process. We are still part of the first cell! Think of it. That is how far back our genetic inheritance goes. > > dhw: All invention has to be information based. You claim that God not only planted the information but also planted the decisions based on the information.-Not exactly if you have read the above.-> dhw: My alternative is that cells over billions of years acquire information, and by combining their intelligences are able to take their own decisions. It remains open whether or not a god gave them that intelligence. -As above, God gave them the ability to sense information and some degree of epigenetic decision making, as part of the master plan genetic system.- > DAVID: I agree about NDE's and these transplant memories may have some validity if you consider species consciousness as a factor. > > dhw: I don't understand your insistence that individual memories are dependent on species consciousness. Validation of transplant memories, as with NDEs, can only come about through confirmation of the information by independent third parties. This appears to have happened in certain cases of NDEs and heart transplants. -I can accept completely the fact of veridical NDE's. Hundreds have been reported. A wonderful one in Parnia's book: A young intern is forced to keep shocking a patient who keeps reverting to v. fib. ( a very fatal dysrhythmia) over several hours. The patient survives and tells the MD ," you thought, why are you doing this to me?" A reasonable thought for a young doctor, frightened of making a mistake one week out of medical school. "And then you ate my lunch"-Both were true observations from a comatose patient! The doctor years later is now a part of Parnia's research team, and you can understand why.-On the other hand these transplant memory stories are suggestive and require more documentation to reach the level we are at in NDE research. Both are highly suggestive of species consciousness, especially with the so-called NDE experts considering the brain as a radio receiver for consciousness. Parnia is very clear that consciousness can survive several hours of no brain function in isolated cases. Eben Alexander, the academic neurosurgeon's length of time was one week. > > dhw: I raise the argument because you insist that cellular intelligence runs contrary to the findings of biochemistry. I'm not convinced.-Because you are confused by my interpretation that cells use intelligent informaton but they are not themselves intelligent. We differ in our interpretation of the concept of intelligence. > dhw: You don't seem to appreciate how difficult it is to believe in an eternal, infinite, unknown, unknowable, invisible, inexplicable power. For those of us who cannot conceive of such a power, it's only logical that we look for alternatives. This is not egotism, and I don't believe for one second that even 90% of atheists are so arrogant as to believe they will find all the answers. You shouldn't judge a set of people only by those who shout loudest.-Yes, you are a reasonable agnostic, not a slavering, panting polemicist like Dawkins. So you are like Nagel. Darwin is wrong, consciousness is the reason, and we must find a 'third way' but we don't know what it is, or that we can ever know. You are at the edge of the chasm and won't leap. That is your choice. Hop onto the pickets and remain frustrated with no answers. None are provable. Adler says it is provable beyond a reasonable doubt and I accepted his approach. Accept the idea that no solution is absolutely provable and try on Adler.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by dhw, Thursday, October 24, 2013, 20:31 (4048 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: To repeat my thoughts abot God and evolution, and straighten out your interpretation of them: God created life and evolution to end up with human beings. Why He chose this approach has no answer. [dhw: And in my view this approach is pure speculation, but let that pass.] He gave life extreme inventiveness in epigenetics. This is why we see so many strange and wonderful approaches to a multitude of different life styles. Thus He didn't design everything. He gave living organisms the ability to respond with unique answers. [...] God gave them the ability to sense information and some degree of epigenetic decision making, as part of the master plan genetic system.-You love to bring in "epigenetic", as if somehow that erases the implications of "decision-making". If God did not design and preprogramme all the organs that have led from eukaroytes to humans, but gave cell communities (organisms) "the ability to respond with answers of their own" (unique), then each cell community must do its own designing. And that requires what I and certain scientists would call intelligence/consciousness/sentience ... not anthropomorphized, any more than we can say an elephant thinks like an ant, but in ways that enable them to come up with their own answers. An automaton can only obey instructions which have been given to it by its designer. It has no ability or decision-making capacity of its own.-DAVID: And further: [There are]" cognitive networks and cellular functions for self-modification [epigenetics]."-dhw: "Cognitive" entails acquiring and utilizing knowledge through understanding, learning, and even reasoning (even if not in the human way). -DAVID: My thought is that the cells use intelligent information, which removes the implication that cells themselves are intelligent. An analogy is we go to the library or Google to find intelligent information to use.-An excellent analogy, except that information has no intelligence of its own. Intelligent beings like you (and sometimes me) go to the library to find information, and we then (hopefully!) use it intelligently. Your focus is always on the information, whereas mine is on the USE of the information. I acquire the information that there is a flood on the way. The information is not intelligent. I decide to erect a wall round my house, to build an ark, to emigrate, to die bravely...THAT is where intelligence comes into play. Antonia Ant and her buddies have fought many battles. They see the mantis (sensory perception providing information), and then they plan their strategy (intelligence using information both present and past). They are aware of the climate, predators, the need for food and shelter (information through sensory perception), and they build their underground city (intelligence). They and we USE information intelligently.-DAVID: Cells have no brains and their intelligent information is implanted, passed down through cell division, and gained in their past. Life is a continuous process. We are still part of the first cell! Think of it. That is how far back our genetic inheritance goes.-Life is indeed a continuous process, and so information gathering also has to be a continuous process. It is not confined to information gained in the past, or handed down by previous generations, and that is why cell communities (organisms) adapt and innovate. I marvel like you at our genetic inheritance, and I marvel at the astonishing ingenuity of cell communities that have constantly been able (your word ... ability) to pool their resources and come up with new ways of exploiting or coping with new environments. Cells do not have brains like ours, but brains are composed of cells. It is the combination of billions of these cells that somehow has given rise to human intelligence. Maybe, like the ant colony, the billions of micro-intelligences in all organisms enable different types of macro-intelligence to emerge and hence to adapt and innovate in their own unique way. Maybe God gave them the ability, but the point of my argument is that they HAVE the ability ... their decisions have not been preprogrammed. Automatons can only take preprogrammed decisions.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by David Turell , Friday, October 25, 2013, 01:42 (4048 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: You love to bring in "epigenetic", as if somehow that erases the implications of "decision-making". .... An automaton can only obey instructions which have been given to it by its designer. It has no ability or decision-making capacity of its own.-Exactly. Shapiro views cells as having a read/write computer program so that they can respong to varying stimuli in type or intensity. This is how he veiws epigenetics.- > dhw: An excellent analogy, except that information has no intelligence of its own. Intelligent beings like you (and sometimes me) go to the library to find information, and we then (hopefully!) use it intelligently. Your focus is always on the information, whereas mine is on the USE of the information.-You misunderstand the concept. The information the cells have is also the information of how to use the stimuli they receive to respond. There are responses based on the type and intensity of stimuli. They have all the information they need to proceed.- > > Life is indeed a continuous process, and so information gathering also has to be a continuous process. ....Automatons can only take preprogrammed decisions.-Exactly as explained above. Cells have read/write computer programs. That is why the ID love Shapiro. They all agree, and why Larry Moran hates him, he is such a threat.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by dhw, Friday, October 25, 2013, 17:08 (4047 days ago) @ David Turell
Despite your claim that you don't try to read God's mind, you insist that he created life and evolution to end up with human beings. If this is so, every innovation from toes to nose, from thighs to eyes, from hips to lips must have been preprogrammed. And yet God "didn't design everything. He gave living organisms the ability to respond with unique answers." And "God gave them the ability to sense information and some degree of epigenetic decision making..." So all the different noses, eyes and hips that preceded our own were...designed or not designed by God? You have said repeatedly that divine preprogramming is the only explanation for innovations, and all cell communities are automatons, and yet there is room for individual decision-making. The confusion is all too evident in our next exchangeAVID: My thought is that cells use intelligent information, which removes the implication that cells themselves are intelligent. An analogy is we go to the library or Google to find intelligent information to use.-dhw: An excellent analogy, except that information has no intelligence of its own. Intelligent beings like you (and sometimes me) go to the library to find information, and we then (hopefully!) use it intelligently. Your focus is always on the information, whereas mine is on the USE of the information.-DAVID: You misunderstand the concept. The information the cells have is also the information of how to use the stimuli they receive to respond. There are responses based on the type and intensity of stimuli. They have all the information they need to proceed.-Information of how to use information = instructions. If you have a million situations, you need a million sets of instructions. Are cells (cell communities) compelled to follow specific instructions, or do they have information that enables them to make their own choices? If they are compelled, they are preprogrammed automatons. If they can make their own decisions, i.e. can make their own judgement about what information to use and how to use it, they are not automatons, which means they have intelligence of their own. Dhw: Life is indeed a continuous process, and so information gathering also has to be a continuous process. ....Automatons can only take preprogrammed decisions.-DAVID: Exactly as explained above. Cells have read/write computer programs. That is why the ID love Shapiro. They all agree, and why Larry Moran hates him, he is such a threat.-I don't care who loves or hates whom. I just want to clarify your basic premises. Do you believe God preprogrammed the first cells to produce all the innovations that have led from eukaryotes to us humans? If so, did God preprogramme all the pre-human variations on these innovations (leading to the billions of different species), or did the cell communities have the ability to take their own decisions?
Species consciousness and instinct.
by David Turell , Saturday, October 26, 2013, 01:28 (4047 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Despite your claim that you don't try to read God's mind, you insist that he created life and evolution to end up with human beings. ..... The confusion is all too evident in our next exchange:-No I think the confusion is yours.- > dhw:Information of how to use information = instructions. If you have a million situations, you need a million sets of instructions. Are cells (cell communities) compelled to follow specific instructions, or do they have information that enables them to make their own choices? If they are compelled, they are preprogrammed automatons. -I've said they are automatons over and over. But I assume they have a small set of choices based on the type and strength of stimuli they receive. - > Dhw: Life is indeed a continuous process, and so information gathering also has to be a continuous process. ....Automatons can only take preprogrammed decisions. > > dhw: I just want to clarify your basic premises. Do you believe God preprogrammed the first cells to produce all the innovations that have led from eukaryotes to us humans? If so, did God preprogramme all the pre-human variations on these innovations (leading to the billions of different species), or did the cell communities have the ability to take their own decisions?-Again, explained above. Cell response depends uppon type of stimulus received.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by dhw, Saturday, October 26, 2013, 18:17 (4046 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Despite your claim that you don't try to read God's mind, you insist that he created life and evolution to end up with human beings. ..... The confusion is all too evident in our next exchange:-DAVID: No I think the confusion is yours.-Wrong reference. I wrote: "You have said repeatedly that divine programming is the only explanation for innovations, and all cells communities are automatons, and yet there is room for individual decision-making." That is confusing.-dhw:Information of how to use information = instructions. If you have a million situations, you need a million sets of instructions. Are cells (cell communities) compelled to follow specific instructions, or do they have information that enables them to make their own choices? If they are compelled, they are preprogrammed automatons. -DAVID: I've said they are automatons over and over. But I assume they have a small set of choices based on the type and strength of stimuli they receive. -Yes, you have said that. But you have also said that God didn't design everything, gave living organisms the ability to respond with unique answers, and gave them some degree of "epigenetic" decision-making. Hence the following direct questions that I put to you:-dhw: I just want to clarify your basic premises. Do you believe God preprogrammed the first cells to produce all the innovations that have led from eukaryotes to us humans? If so, did God preprogramme all the pre-human variations on these innovations (leading to the billions of different species), or did the cell communities have the ability to take their own decisions?-DAVID: Again, explained above. Cell response depends uppon type of stimulus received.-The Mayweather sidestep. All responses depend on the type of stimulus received. The question is the freedom of choice in the response. Do you, for example, believe your God specifically preprogrammed fly eyes, brontosaurus eyes, octopus eyes, eagle eyes, human eyes...or did he give each cell community (organism) the ability to develop its own form of vision, just as the ant community may well have developed its own architecture, lifestyle and strategies through the collaboration of many individual intelligences?
Species consciousness and instinct.
by David Turell , Saturday, October 26, 2013, 18:41 (4046 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw:Yes, you have said that. But you have also said that God didn't design everything, gave living organisms the ability to respond with unique answers, and gave them some degree of "epigenetic" decision-making.-No, no. no!! Not unique answers. A limited number of pre-designed responses, a,b,or c based on stimuli charcteristics. A very small degree of choice. - > > dhw: The Mayweather sidestep. All responses depend on the type of stimulus received. The question is the freedom of choice in the response.-Very little freedom as I have always suggested. It requires a brain for large plans to develop.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by dhw, Sunday, October 27, 2013, 17:44 (4045 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: I've said they are automatons over and over. But I assume they have a small set of choices based on the type and strength of stimuli they receive.-dhw:Yes, you have said that. But you have also said that God didn't design everything, gave living organisms the ability to respond with unique answers, and gave them some degree of "epigenetic" decision-making.-DAVID: No, no. no!! Not unique answers. A limited number of pre-designed responses, a,b,or c based on stimuli charcteristics. A very small degree of choice. -It's little wonder that I find your answers confusing. On 23 October you wrote: "......He didn't design everything. He gave living organisms the ability to respond with unique answers." Now it's no, no, no!! But even this scenario requires explanation. Archie Optrex runs away from Tyrone Sore-Ass, and God lets him choose between a,b,c: keep running, disappear, or fly ... so he chooses to fly, and hey presto God invented flight? Is this God's technique of Natural Selection? "Choose the wrong one, matey, and out you go!" In any case, even a choice of three requires a degree of awareness. Does an automaton have the power of choice between three options? And that's without mentioning the thousand and one strategies my poor old ants have to come up with to meet the thousand and one different situations they're going to be confronted with. Each one accompanied by a potentially fatal multiple choice exam paper?-dhw: The Mayweather sidestep. All responses depend on the type of stimulus received. The question is the freedom of choice in the response. Do you, for example, believe your God specifically preprogrammed fly eyes, brontosaurus eyes, octopus eyes, eagle eyes, human eyes...or did he give each cell community (organism) the ability to develop its own form of vision, just as the ant community may well have developed its own architecture, lifestyle and strategies through the collaboration of many individual intelligences?-DAVID: Very little freedom as I have always suggested. It requires a brain for large plans to develop.-So do you believe God specifically preprogrammed each different form of eye, or did he give each cell community (organism) the ability to respond with its own (unique) answers? As you'll have gathered, I'm having great difficulty following your line of thought, and so it would be very helpful if you would just explain what innovations and variations you think your God preprogrammed into the very first living things, what kind of choices were left to the individual cell communities (organisms), and how they could choose and yet have no intelligence of their own to allow them to make a choice. A concrete example would be very useful.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by David Turell , Sunday, October 27, 2013, 18:48 (4045 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: So do you believe God specifically preprogrammed each different form of eye, or did he give each cell community (organism) the ability to respond with its own (unique) answers? As you'll have gathered, I'm having great difficulty following your line of thought, and so it would be very helpful if you would just explain what innovations and variations you think your God preprogrammed into the very first living things, what kind of choices were left to the individual cell communities (organisms), and how they could choose and yet have no intelligence of their own to allow them to make a choice. A concrete example would be very useful.-You should have gathered by now that the use of word automaton implies just that. I'm working theorectically, not precisely, which you keep demanding. I think God gives organisms a little leeway in choice based on stimulus type and intensity. To me, evolution looks somewhat like a little trail and error happens, but is mainly directed toward humans. We are obviously not an accident of contingency. I'm simply adapting my suppositions to what I conclude. You seem to want exactitide. Not possible. I know evolution made six types of eyes. Obviously varying attempts. Simply intelligent information: intense stimulus, try a,b,or c; mild stimulus. try d,e, or f. thus some variation and natural selection sorts it out. A little Darwin and lots of God. Theistic evolution is thus quite clear to me
Species consciousness and instinct.
by dhw, Monday, October 28, 2013, 17:32 (4044 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: [...]it would be very helpful if you would just explain what innovations and variations you think your God preprogrammed into the very first living things, what kind of choices were left to the individual cell communities (organisms), and how they could choose and yet have no intelligence of their own to allow them to make a choice. A concrete example would be very useful.-DAVID: You should have gathered by now that the use of word automaton implies just that. I'm working theorectically, not precisely, which you keep demanding. I think God gives organisms a little leeway in choice based on stimulus type and intensity. -How can an automaton have "leeway in choice"? With what faculty does it make its choice?-DAVID: To me, evolution looks somewhat like a little trail and error happens, but is mainly directed toward humans. We are obviously not an accident of contingency. [...] I know evolution made six types of eyes. Obviously varying attempts.- Evolution doesn't make anything. Either the cell communities made the eyes, or your God made them. So did he preprogramme them, along with the hundreds of variations? You say "varying attempts", but these are not just attempts. They work. So was each success specially designed by God? Pity poor old Tracey Trilobite, God's Chosen One (her eye was unique), only to find herself jettisoned after umpteen million years. I am indeed demanding precision because you have devised a scenario which doesn't make sense to me. All organisms are composed of cells. From single-celled beginnings life has advanced to colossal communities, from which have "emerged" all the organs and organisms we know today. Dinosaurs had the same extremely complex organs, but the cell communities assembled them in different ways, even though they all shared the same environment. If humans are obviously not an accident of contingency, you can hardly say that dinosaur eyes, teeth, brain etc. WERE an accident of contingency. There has to be a line somewhere between your divine preprogramming and the individual innovations that distinguish one species from another. If cells and cell communities are automatons, there can be no line. They can only obey instructions. Therefore according to your automaton theory ALL individual innovations and ALL species were divinely preprogrammed into the very first cells.-However, bearing in mind that all these different species sprang from fewer and fewer forms, going back in time, your alternative is special creation (God dabbling) or species branching out from their common ancestors through initiatives of their own, sparked off by changes in the environment. Different cell communities taking different directions. If they were not all automatons preprogrammed to do so, and were not specially created, they must have had an internal mechanism that enabled them to work out their own individual, independent ways of coping with or exploiting the environment. Or, to quote a man whose opinions and learning I greatly respect: "the ability to respond with unique answers and [...] some degree of "epigenetic" decision-making." This applies all the way along the line from eukaryotes to trilobites to tyrannosauruses to Turells.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by David Turell , Tuesday, October 29, 2013, 05:08 (4044 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: How can an automaton have "leeway in choice"? With what faculty does it make its choice?-No problem. the intelligent info in the DNA offeres A,b, or c as responses to varying stimuli. > > dhw: [/i]Evolution doesn't make anything. Either the cell communities made the eyes, or your God made them.-So evolution just evolves with no outcome? We really don't know. All we know is it takes a mind ot make a plan. Body plans in the Cambrian were unique. Who thought them up? Or did they grow like Topsy? > > dhw; I am indeed demanding precision because you have devised a scenario which doesn't make sense to me.- But nothing makes sense to you. You don't want choices. Then you would have to pick a choice nad quite being agnostic.-> dhw: Therefore according to your automaton theory ALL individual innovations and ALL species were divinely preprogrammed into the very first cells.-That is not what I have written to you. The cells have limited choices, so there is an outcome of some variation. > > dhw: If they were not all automatons preprogrammed to do so, and were not specially created, they must have had an internal mechanism that enabled them to work out their own individual, independent ways of coping with or exploiting the environment. Or, to quote a man whose opinions and learning I greatly respect: "the ability to respond with unique answers and [...] some degree of "epigenetic" decision-making." This applies all the way along the line from eukaryotes to trilobites to tyrannosauruses to Turells.-Of course. that is why life is so inventive. Six pairs of eyes. I don't know why it is so difficult to understand, until I remember you don't want to make choices. Only proof solid of every step from amoeba to humans. Good luck.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by dhw, Tuesday, October 29, 2013, 20:02 (4043 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: How can an automaton have "leeway in choice"? With what faculty does it make its choice?-DAVID: No problem. the intelligent info in the DNA offeres A,b, or c as responses to varying stimuli.-A, b and c are the alternatives. You have not indicated the faculty that enables the automaton to make its choice between the three of them. If the choice itself is preprogrammed, there is no leeway.-dhw: Therefore according to your automaton theory ALL individual innovations and ALL species were divinely preprogrammed into the very first cells.-DAVID: That is not what I have written to you. The cells have limited choices, so there is an outcome of some variation.-And that is what I'm trying to clarify. There are usually limited choices, even when humans are placed in a certain situation. The question is the extent to which the organism makes its own decisions. An automaton has no freedom of choice. Even if the cells have "limited choices", they still can't be automatons!-dhw: If they were not all automatons preprogrammed to do so, and were not specially created, they must have had an internal mechanism that enabled them to work out their own individual, independent ways of coping with or exploiting the environment. Or, to quote a man whose opinions and learning I greatly respect: "the ability to respond with unique answers and [...] some degree of "epigenetic" decision-making." This applies all the way along the line from eukaryotes to trilobites to tyrannosauruses to Turells.-DAVID: Of course. that is why life is so inventive. Six pairs of eyes. I don't know why it is so difficult to understand, until I remember you don't want to make choices. Only proof solid of every step from amoeba to humans. Good luck.-Once again, you are shifting the focus. I am weighing one theistic concept of evolution against another: 1) God preprogrammed everything from the start except for what he didn't preprogramme, and you ain't gonna tell me which you think is which, or how automatons are able to make their own (limited) decisions; 2) God created a mechanism that would enable organisms to cooperate intelligently and invent an almost limitless variety of living things. (The latter version need not be theistic, but this discussion is not about the existence of God, it's only about the process of evolution.) I do not need to make a choice ... there is no gun to my head. But without a more detailed explanation of the first, I find the second much easier to understand and visualize.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by David Turell , Tuesday, October 29, 2013, 22:05 (4043 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: How can an automaton have "leeway in choice"? With what faculty does it make its choice? > > DAVID: No problem. the intelligent info in the DNA offeres A,b, or c as responses to varying stimuli. > > dhw: A, b and c are the alternatives. You have not indicated the faculty that enables the automaton to make its choice between the three of them. If the choice itself is preprogrammed, there is no leeway.-What is wrong with controlled leeway? >> > dhw: And that is what I'm trying to clarify. There are usually limited choices, even when humans are placed in a certain situation. The question is the extent to which the organism makes its own decisions. An automaton has no freedom of choice. Even if the cells have "limited choices", they still can't be automatons!-Just explained above. > > DAVID: Of course. that is why life is so inventive. Six pairs of eyes. I don't know why it is so difficult to understand, until I remember you don't want to make choices. Only proof solid of every step from amoeba to humans. Good luck.- > > dhw: Once again, you are shifting the focus. I am weighing one theistic concept of evolution against another: 1) God preprogrammed everything from the start except for what he didn't preprogramme, and you ain't gonna tell me which you think is which, or how automatons are able to make their own (limited) decisions; 2) God created a mechanism that would enable organisms to cooperate intelligently and invent an almost limitless variety of living things. (The latter version need not be theistic, but this discussion is not about the existence of God, it's only about the process of evolution.) I do not need to make a choice ... there is no gun to my head. But without a more detailed explanation of the first, I find the second much easier to understand and visualize.-As a theistic evolutionist, I'm more comfortable with (1). I can't explain it any better since we have no real idea how evolution works. We have Darwin's guesses and they are not worth much. As I have often said, making a kidney by chance doing the planning is impossible. With (2) avoiding the word 'invent', if cells carefully cooperatively followed a plan in DNA, that would work. Cells don't invent, but are allowed a small number of tentative epigenetic variations, but that will never got you a kidney.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by dhw, Wednesday, October 30, 2013, 18:50 (4042 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: A, b and c are the alternatives. You have not indicated the faculty that enables the automaton to make its choice between the three of them. If the choice itself is preprogrammed, there is no leeway.-DAVID: What is wrong with controlled leeway?-The control lies in the limitation of choice (your a, b, c). But you still have not explained how an automaton can CHOOSE between a, b and c. And of course you can't, because you know as well as I do that an automaton cannot make decisions of its own. That is one reason why your scenario doesn't make sense to me. Dhw: I am weighing one theistic concept of evolution against another: 1) God preprogrammed everything from the start except for what he didn't preprogramme, and you ain't gonna tell me which you think is which, or how automatons are able to make their own (limited) decisions; 2) God created a mechanism that would enable organisms to cooperate intelligently and invent an almost limitless variety of living things. (The latter version need not be theistic, but this discussion is not about the existence of God, it's only about the process of evolution.) DAVID: As a theistic evolutionist, I'm more comfortable with (1). I can't explain it any better since we have no real idea how evolution works. We have Darwin's guesses and they are not worth much. -And that is why we propose different theories, which we then subject to our phenomenal powers of reasoning! You and I cannot believe in chance (Darwin's random mutations). You have offered a different theory which is so contradictory and when followed to its logical conclusion (see below) so far-fetched that I'm tempted to use some of the terms you have levelled against those scientists who call for further research into the intelligence of cells. DAVID: With (2) avoiding the word 'invent', if cells carefully cooperatively followed a plan in DNA, that would work.-Another way of saying that cells are preprogrammed to cooperate and obey God's plans to create trilobite eyes, spider eyes, fly eyes, eagle eyes, human eyes...Substitute every organ you can think of in that list. All preprogrammed into the first living organisms (since you believe evolution happened). DAVID: Cells don't invent, but are allowed a small number of tentative epigenetic variations, but that will never got you a kidney.-You have given us a nice example of ant symbiosis: Natures wonders: triple symbiosis (Introduction)-http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=R5piJCyHwtw-but you still won't make the connection. Did God preprogramme this three-way symbiosis into the first living cells, or could it be an example of how organisms cooperate individually and independently? Please multiply this example by zillions of such cases, in which cell communities (billions of cells) cooperate to invent new organs and new lifestyles. (See also under "Precambrian environment") Not by chance ... we've both agreed on that ... but by the intelligence with which your God may have endowed them. If cells (cell communities) don't invent, then ALL of them must be automatons, and ALL innovations must have been preprogrammed. Multiple (even if limited) choice exam papers for cells and ants require cellular and formic intelligence and decision-making. Automatons are not endowed with intelligence or the ability to make decisions. You can't have it both ways.
Species consciousness and instinct.
by David Turell , Thursday, October 31, 2013, 17:26 (4041 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: The control lies in the limitation of choice (your a, b, c). But you still have not explained how an automaton can CHOOSE between a, b and c. And of course you can't, because you know as well as I do that an automaton cannot make decisions of its own. That is one reason why your scenario doesn't make sense to me.-Please think outside your box. Stimuli have strength differentials. They have type differentials. Automatic responses could be programmed as graded responses depending on the characteristics of the stimuli. Electronic items do it all the time, and DNA is way more complex than the electronic algorithms the electronic boards. > > And that is why we propose different theories, which we then subject to our phenomenal powers of reasoning! You and I cannot believe in chance (Darwin's random mutations). You have offered a different theory which is so contradictory and when followed to its logical conclusion (see below) so far-fetched that I'm tempted to use some of the terms you have levelled against those scientists who call for further research into the intelligence of cells.-I'm sorry you can't follow my reasoning. You keep adding suppositions to my thoughts- > > dhw: Another way of saying that cells are preprogrammed to cooperate and obey God's plans to create trilobite eyes, spider eyes, fly eyes, eagle eyes, human eyes...Substitute every organ you can think of in that list. All preprogrammed into the first living organisms (since you believe evolution happened).-Same suppositions. I don't know the degree of pre-planning for anything. I simply propose that planning is necessary for complexity. The exact level of pre-planning vs, experimentation is anyone's guess.-> > dhw:but you still won't make the connection. Did God preprogramme this three-way symbiosis into the first living cells, or could it be an example of how organisms cooperate individually and independently? ....Not by chance ... we've both agreed on that ... but by the intelligence with which your God may have endowed them. If cells (cell communities) don't invent, then ALL of them must be automatons, and ALL innovations must have been preprogrammed. Multiple (even if limited) choice exam papers for cells and ants require cellular and formic intelligence and decision-making. Automatons are not endowed with intelligence or the ability to make decisions. You can't have it both ways.-Yes I can. I've given examples above. Computerized gadgets make all sorts of programmed decisions which alter outcomes.
Species consciousness & instinct. Blue tits are back
by David Turell , Sunday, January 22, 2017, 23:11 (2862 days ago) @ David Turell
In the 1920's in England Blue/Great Tits learned how to raid milk bottles for cream. After a WWII hiatus they learned all over again, faster than the first time, as discussed by Sheldrake. Now they are the subject of colored feeder training:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/flying-high-research-unveils-birds-learning-power-1484762376
"Dr. Aplin and her colleagues studied the Great Tits in Wytham Woods near Oxford. Biologists there fitted out hundreds of birds, 90% of the population, with transponder tags, like bird bar codes, that let them track the birds’ movements.
"Dr. Aplin showed the birds a feeder with a door painted half blue and half red. The birds lived in separate groups in different parts of the wood. Two birds from one group learned that when they pushed the blue side of the feeder from left to right, they got a worm. Another two birds from another group learned the opposite technique; they only got the worm when they pushed the red side from right to left. Then the researchers released the birds back into the wild and scattered feeders throughout the area. The feeders would work with either technique.
"The researchers tracked which birds visited the feeders and at what time, as well as which technique they used. The wild birds rapidly learned by watching those trained in the lab. The blue-group birds pushed the blue side, while the red group pushed the red. And new birds who visited a feeder imitated the birds at that site, even though they could easily have learned that the other technique worked, too.
Then the researchers used a social-network analysis to track just which birds liked to hang out with which other birds. Like people on Facebook, birds were much more likely to learn from other birds in their social network than from birds they spent less time with. Also like humans, young birds were more likely to adopt the new techniques than older ones.
"Most remarkably, the traditions continued into the next year. Great Tits don’t live very long, and only about 40% of the birds survive to the next season. But though the birds had gone, their discoveries lived on. The next generation of the blue group continued to use the blue technique.
"We often assume that only animals who are closely related to us will share our cognitive abilities. The new research suggests that very different species can evolve impressive learning skills that suit their particular environmental niche. Great Tits—like honeybees, humpbacks and humans—are sophisticated foragers who learn to adapt to new environments. The young American graduate student and the young Great Tit at her door both learned to become masters of the British bottle."
Comment; Not so much instinct as learning what they see and passing it on. The issue is whether it gets encoded into DNA, or whether surviving adults show the youngsters the trick. Humpbacks in the middle of the century taught themselves in Alaska how to bubble feed: a circle of them blow a circle of bubbles and surface within the circle eating everything there. They have done it ever since.