Topsy-turvy evolution (Introduction)
by David Turell , Wednesday, July 31, 2013, 15:38 (4134 days ago)
The usual assumption is that species start out simple and become more diverse in variety and more complex. This fossil study shows the opposite. As in the Cambrian diversity and complexity are at the beginning and the selection sorts things out.:-http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/07/24/1302642110-Look at these diagrams:-http://phys.org/news/2013-07-scientific-evolution.html#jCp-"Contrary to popular belief, not all animal groups continued to evolve fundamentally new morphologies through time. The majority actually achieved their greatest diversity of form (disparity) relatively early in their histories. Lead researcher from the Department of Biology & Biochemistry, Dr Matthew Wills said: "This pattern, known as 'early high disparity', turns the traditional V-shaped cone model of evolution on its head."
Topsy-turvy evolution
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Saturday, August 03, 2013, 23:36 (4130 days ago) @ David Turell
David: "Contrary to popular belief, not all animal groups continued to evolve fundamentally new morphologies through time. The majority actually achieved their greatest diversity of form (disparity) relatively early in their histories. > > Lead researcher from the Department of Biology & Biochemistry, Dr Matthew Wills said: "This pattern, known as 'early high disparity', turns the traditional V-shaped cone model of evolution on its head."-Depends on who's popular belief you are talking about. I suspect that many religious people(which make up a large percentage of the population) would see this as a reasonable and logical order of events. -1) A lot of stuff got made. 2) People came along and screwed it up. 3) A lot of stuff died, and what didn't die, got progressively worse over time. -Of course, that is a gross oversimplification, but still.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Topsy-turvy evolution
by David Turell , Saturday, August 03, 2013, 23:41 (4130 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
> Tony;Depends on who's popular belief you are talking about. I suspect that many religious people(which make up a large percentage of the population) would see this as a reasonable and logical order of events. > > 1) A lot of stuff got made. > 2) People came along and screwed it up. > 3) A lot of stuff died, and what didn't die, got progressively worse over time. > > Of course, that is a gross oversimplification, but still.-Sure fits theisitc evolution
Topsy-turvy evolution
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Saturday, August 03, 2013, 23:40 (4130 days ago) @ David Turell
"Our work implies that there must be constraints on the range of forms within animal groups, and that these limits are often hit relatively early on..."-Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-07-scientific-evolution.html#jCp-To DHW: How many times have I said this? This is essentially the same as, 'created according to their kind' in my language.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Topsy-turvy evolution
by David Turell , Sunday, August 04, 2013, 05:06 (4130 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
> Tony:To DHW: How many times have I said this? This is essentially the same as, 'created according to their kind' in my language.-Theistic voluiotn, of course
Topsy-turvy evolution
by dhw, Sunday, August 04, 2013, 19:53 (4129 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
DAVID: (quoting) "Our work implies that there must be constraints on the range of forms within animal groups, and that these limits are often hit relatively early on..." Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-07-scientific-evolution.html#jCp TONY: To DHW: How many times have I said this? This is essentially the same as, 'created according to their kind' in my language.-We come back, as always, to innovations. QUOTE	: Co-author Dr Sylvain Gerber, added: "A key question now is what prevents groups from generating fundamentally new forms later on in their evolution. Equally intriguing is the manner in which some groups are able to break free from these constraints. "Our results hint that this may hinge upon the evolution of new 'key innovations' that enable groups to exploit new resources or habitats, for example dinosaurs growing feathers and evolving wings or fish evolving legs and moving onto land to claim new territory."-It all points to the idea that within early life there was already a mechanism (let us call it the "intelligent cell/genome") which enabled organisms to adapt and innovate through the cooperation of cells and communities of cells. Adaptation and innovation come about through responses to changes in the environment ... either by necessity or because the changes allow for new organs and organisms. There's no mystery about constraints, or about forms reaching their limits early on. Once they're settled in their environment, and the environment itself is settled, why should they change? Nor is there a mystery about some groups breaking free. It all comes down to the adaptive and innovative intelligence within individual cell communities. The difference between this theory and Darwin's is that the changes are not random but are triggered by interaction between the environment and the genome.-I don't know how you can separate creation of "kinds" from the countless innovations that combine to make those "kinds". Are you saying that God invented vision, hearing, lungs, livers, nervous systems, digestive systems etc. etc. all at the same time, as it were 'in vacuo', and then incorporated them into the first mammals, fish, reptiles, birds, which were then left to evolve into their various species? It seems to me that ALL the mysteries of evolution disappear once you accept the existence of the one basic mechanism, apart of course from how it originated in the first place. Attribute it to your God if you like, and that gives you "theistic evolution". Ah, Tony, how many times have I said this?
Topsy-turvy evolution
by David Turell , Sunday, August 04, 2013, 22:15 (4129 days ago) @ dhw
dhw:It all points to the idea that within early life there was already a mechanism (let us call it the "intelligent cell/genome") which enabled organisms to adapt and innovate through the cooperation of cells and communities of cells. Adaptation and innovation come about through responses to changes in the environment ... either by necessity or because the changes allow for new organs and organisms. -You persist in missing the point, now even raised by Darwinist scientists. From the precambrian ooze with bags and worm forms for life, perhaps with early light sensing spots, suddenly came the trilobites and the Anamilocaris, 6 feet long shrimp-like preditor, with eyes to hunt by, digestive tracts to absorb by, nerve circuits to run their bodies by, kidneys to excrete by. And all this came from intelligent cells who sat around cogitating, inventing information to create these new organ forms de novo? And then without trial and error to shake out the kinks and the mistakes, no natural selection to mediate everything worked from the beginning? Poppy cock! The fossils are full blown. Nothing like the Darwin theory here.- > > dhw; It seems to me that ALL the mysteries of evolution disappear once you accept the existence of the one basic mechanism, apart of course from how it originated in the first place. Attribute it to your God if you like, and that gives you "theistic evolution". -Exactly!!!
Topsy-turvy evolution
by dhw, Monday, August 05, 2013, 11:28 (4129 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: It all points to the idea that within early life there was already a mechanism (let us call it the "intelligent cell/genome") which enabled organisms to adapt and innovate through the cooperation of cells and communities of cells. Adaptation and innovation come about through responses to changes in the environment ... either by necessity or because the changes allow for new organs and organisms. DAVID: You persist in missing the point, now even raised by Darwinist scientists. From the precambrian ooze with bags and worm forms for life, perhaps with early light sensing spots, suddenly came the trilobites and the Anamilocaris, 6 feet long shrimp-like preditor, with eyes to hunt by, digestive tracts to absorb by, nerve circuits to run their bodies by, kidneys to excrete by. And all this came from intelligent cells who sat around cogitating, inventing information to create these new organ forms de novo? And then without trial and error to shake out the kinks and the mistakes, no natural selection to mediate everything worked from the beginning? Poppy cock! The fossils are full blown. Nothing like the Darwin theory here.-dhw; It seems to me that ALL the mysteries of evolution disappear once you accept the existence of the one basic mechanism, apart of course from how it originated in the first place. Attribute it to your God if you like, and that gives you "theistic evolution". -DAVID: Exactly!!!-We are trying to understand how evolution works. We agree that Darwin's random mutations and gradualism DON'T work. We agree that there has to be an adaptive, innovative mechanism, and we have agreed to call it the intelligent cell/genome. So long as we attribute the mechanism to God, you therefore have no problem with any of my arguments. So what point do I persist in missing?