Darwins doubt (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Tuesday, July 09, 2013, 15:12 (4156 days ago)

An evenhanded review of a new book about the Cambrian explosion. The book appears to use my approach of analyzing science to the best answer from how to why. In this case the issue is where did the information for the DNA code come from?-
http://townhall.com/columnists/frankturek/2013/07/09/untitled-n1634815/page/full

Darwins doubt

by David Turell @, Wednesday, July 10, 2013, 02:05 (4155 days ago) @ David Turell

Another review of the crticisms of the book, with Cambrian information:-
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/a_graduate_stud074221.html

Darwins doubt

by dhw, Thursday, July 11, 2013, 08:12 (4154 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: An evenhanded review of a new book about the Cambrian explosion. The book appears to use my approach of analyzing science to the best answer from how to why. In this case the issue is where did the information for the DNA code come from?-http://townhall.com/columnists/frankturek/2013/07/09/untitled-n1634815/page/full-Intelligent Design does not explain how these new species came into being. We need to know if a designer or designers created them all individually, or created a mechanism capable of doing its own inventing (our "intelligent cell/genome"), or different forms of intelligence (panpsychist) inexplicably evolved within matter ... as opposed to some form of inexplicable superintelligence that has been around for eternity.
 
We have the same problem with the entry about IncRNA: -DAVID: The lncRNA's seem to work in 3 dimensions. How they arose in such specific locations, and they are precisely positioned, is theorized but really unknown.:-http://www.darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/07/heres-new-paper-on-long-non-coding-rna.html-Quote: "The findings are not only astonishing, they demolish evolutionary theory." -Which evolutionary theory do they demolish? Common descent and natural selection? Not for me. Gradualism and random mutations? Yes, for me, but they have long been suspect. Evolutionary theory tries to explain 1) the process whereby organisms descend from earlier organisms and survive or perish by natural selection, and 2) how that process actually works physically. Darwin's and everybody else's major problem was and still is 2), and not knowing the answer does not invalidate 1).-Quote: "Did Xist evolve? Perhaps, perhaps not. Who knows what future research will reveal. But from a scientific perspective, the current evidence is abundantly clear. It is astronomically unlikely that Xist, with its amazing capabilities, evolved. The fact that it must have evolved "rapidly" adds an exclamation mark to the finding. An intricate sequence must have evolved with amazing functionality. Those random mutations must have evolved Xist in the right place within the genome. And all this must have happened rapidly, at the right time. The right sequence, the right place, and the right time. When it comes to science, evolutionary theory simply makes no sense."-Some of it makes perfect sense, and once you accept the idea that there is an intelligent and innovative mechanism at work within the cell/genome, it ALL makes sense, even it is still only a theory. However, whichever solution we impose on science, it's going to come up against the same unanswerable question: how did intelligence arise in the first place? If theists and atheists would stop deriding one another's faith, they would realize that their own is just as non-scientific and as nebulous as the faith they are deriding. In other words, when it comes to science, no theory of first cause makes sense, but evolution is NOT a theory of first cause. It is a theory of how the first forms of life (cause unknown) gave rise to new forms.

Darwins doubt

by David Turell @, Thursday, July 11, 2013, 14:51 (4154 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: However, whichever solution we impose on science, it's going to come up against the same unanswerable question: how did intelligence arise in the first place? -My contention is that inorganic plasma of the early universe could not invent consciousness and the intelligence therein by chance. C&I had to already exist and simply re-created itself through an evolution of the universe.-> dhw: In other words, when it comes to science, no theory of first cause makes sense, but evolution is NOT a theory of first cause. It is a theory of how the first forms of life (cause unknown) gave rise to new forms.-You are right. Lots of unknowns and can't-be-provens. Evolution appears guided to me. That follows from my previous comment.

Darwins doubt

by dhw, Friday, July 12, 2013, 13:37 (4153 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: However, whichever solution we impose on science, it's going to come up against the same unanswerable question: how did intelligence arise in the first place?
 
DAVID: My contention is that inorganic plasma of the early universe could not invent consciousness and the intelligence therein by chance. C&I had to already exist and simply re-created itself through an evolution of the universe.-How C&I could ALREADY exist without a cause is as difficult to believe as its evolution by whatever means. "Simply" is a term often used by believers and non-believers, and it covers a multitude of imponderable and unbelievable complexities!

Darwins doubt

by David Turell @, Friday, July 12, 2013, 14:30 (4153 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: How C&I could ALREADY exist without a cause is as difficult to believe as its evolution by whatever means. "Simply" is a term often used by believers and non-believers, and it covers a multitude of imponderable and unbelievable complexities!-So of course we come back to the issue we cannot solve. What are the characteristics of a first cause? We have agreed, generally, there has to be a beginning, a first cause, which takes us to an uncaused cause, and back to Aristotle.

Darwins doubt

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Tuesday, July 16, 2013, 11:20 (4149 days ago) @ David Turell

David: My contention is that inorganic plasma of the early universe could not invent consciousness and the intelligence therein by chance. C&I had to already exist and simply re-created itself through an evolution of the universe.
> -
A better question is, how could we get to a state of inorganic plasma without the laws that govern the formation of inorganic plasma already in effect? How can you have a law without intelligent formation of said law? No matter which way we go, we will wind up in a series of infinite regressions, which become less and less answerable with each successive step.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Darwins doubt

by David Turell @, Tuesday, July 16, 2013, 15:32 (4149 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

David: My contention is that inorganic plasma of the early universe could not invent consciousness and the intelligence therein by chance. C&I had to already exist and simply re-created itself through an evolution of the universe.
> > 
> 
> 
> Tony: A better question is, how could we get to a state of inorganic plasma without the laws that govern the formation of inorganic plasma already in effect? How can you have a law without intelligent formation of said law? No matter which way we go, we will wind up in a series of infinite regressions, which become less and less answerable with each successive step.-Put another way, it is obvious that astrophysical findings follow very set rules. Who made the rules? Infinite regress always comes back to that same point. Can we ever assume taht at some point no rules existed? Did the rules invent themselves?

Darwins doubt

by dhw, Wednesday, July 17, 2013, 18:47 (4147 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

David: My contention is that inorganic plasma of the early universe could not invent consciousness and the intelligence therein by chance. C&I had to already exist and simply re-created itself through an evolution of the universe.-TONY: A better question is, how could we get to a state of inorganic plasma without the laws that govern the formation of inorganic plasma already in effect? How can you have a law without intelligent formation of said law? No matter which way we go, we will wind up in a series of infinite regressions, which become less and less answerable with each successive step.-All the way back to David's beloved "first cause" energy, which we assume has been there for ever and ever, doing whatever eternal energy does with itself. David thinks it was always conscious of itself. How? No idea! Tony, you think that may be so, or it may have become conscious of itself, and then created the laws that led to life on Earth. How? No idea! An atheist thinks it has never been conscious of itself, but after an eternity of mindless goings-on, just happened by chance to create the laws etc. How? No idea! My brand of atheist panpsychist thinks it has never been conscious of itself, but after an eternity of mindless goings-on created matter in which individual pockets of itself evolved intelligences that combined to create the laws etc. How? No idea!-Sounds to me like a pretty good case for agnosticism!-DAVID: Put another way, it is obvious that astrophysical findings follow very set rules. Who made the rules? Infinite regress always comes back to that same point. Can we ever assume that at some point no rules existed? Did the rules invent themselves?-Did the superintelligence that invented the rules invent itself?

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