Aristotelian & Thomist thought (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Thursday, July 04, 2013, 18:30 (4160 days ago)

Leads to this:-"Hence the Necessary Existent, Avicenna concludes, is an intellect."-From my favorite philosopher who once was an atheist:-http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/07/avicennas-argument-from-contingency.html#more

Aristotelian & Thomist thought

by dhw, Friday, July 05, 2013, 13:07 (4160 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Leads to this:-"Hence the Necessary Existent, Avicenna concludes, is an intellect."
From my favorite philosopher who once was an atheist:-http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/07/avicennas-argument-from-contingency.html#more-Feser: The Necessary Existent, Avicenna holds, must be unique. For suppose there were two or more Necessary Existents. Then each would have to have some aspect by which it differs from the other -- something that this Necessary Existent has that that one does not. In that case they would have to have parts. But a thing that has parts is not necessary in itself, since it exists through its parts and would thus be necessary only through them. Since the Necessary Existent is necessary in itself, it does not have parts, and thus lacks anything by which one Necessary Existent could even in principle differ from another. So there cannot be more than one.-The Necessary Existent is clearly both necessary and existent, but it is necessary to question what the Necessary Existent is necessary for, since necessity necessitates a need, and a need necessarily necessitates a needer which necessitates existence of some kind since non-existence needs nothing. A thing that has parts may need its parts, which makes the parts necessary to the thing than needs them but does not mean that the thing that needs them is not necessary in itself unless we agree that nothing is necessary in itself since existence in itself is not necessary. So nothing is necessary except what is necessary to the existent, and since there are countless existences, there are countless Necessary Existents or there are no Necessary Existents, depending on who or what needs what and who or what defines what is necessary and what is not necessary. -Two can play at this game.-FESER: It is also part of Avicenna's background metaphysics that what makes a thing intelligible -- that is, what makes it the proper object of an intellect, a concept -- is separation from matter. (This is a common theme in ancient and medieval philosophy. See my ACPQ paper "Kripke, Ross, and the Immaterial Aspects of Thought" for a detailed defense of the immateriality of strictly intellectual activity, as opposed to mere sensation or imagination.) Moreover, the further a thing is from matter, the more intelligible it is. Avicenna also thinks of an intellect as just that which has something essentially intelligible. Now the Necessary Existent has its existence essentially, and being an immaterial kind of existence its existence is something essentially intelligible. Hence the Necessary Existent, Avicenna concludes, is an intellect.-"Intelligible" = can be understood. Intelligible to whom? Who decides what is the "proper" object of an intellect? What sort of "thing" is he talking about? Is a disembodied sound more "intelligible" than a potato? Is the intellect more easily understood than the workings of the hip joint? Is anything immaterial essentially intelligible? Is anything immaterial essentially existent? Can any essentially immaterial existence be essentially intelligible since without material manifestation its existence cannot even be perceived let alone understood? As Feser is your favourite philosopher, David, I can only assume that you find all of this intelligible.

Aristotelian & Thomist thought

by David Turell @, Friday, July 05, 2013, 15:40 (4160 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: "Intelligible" = can be understood. Intelligible to whom? Who decides what is the "proper" object of an intellect? What sort of "thing" is he talking about? Is a disembodied sound more "intelligible" than a potato? Is the intellect more easily understood than the workings of the hip joint? Is anything immaterial essentially intelligible? Is anything immaterial essentially existent? Can any essentially immaterial existence be essentially intelligible since without material manifestation its existence cannot even be perceived let alone understood? As Feser is your favourite philosopher, David, I can only assume that you find all of this intelligible.-I do. Remember, Feser got to this point from atheism, so there is a thoughtful road.-"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."
 Max Planck ... The Father Of Quantum Mechanics -"The path taken by the photon is not an element of reality. We are not allowed to talk about the photon passing through this or this slit. Neither are we allowed to say the photon passes through both slits. All this kind of language is not applicable."
 Anton Zeilinger-All I have to do is understand the basis of our reality is the quicksand of the quantum and I see God staring at me. It starts with accepting a first cause that is energy, thoughtful, organized energy.

Aristotelian & Thomist thought

by dhw, Saturday, July 06, 2013, 08:58 (4159 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: "Intelligible" = can be understood. Intelligible to whom? Who decides what is the "proper" object of an intellect? What sort of "thing" is he talking about? Is a disembodied sound more "intelligible" than a potato? Is the intellect more easily understood than the workings of the hip joint? Is anything immaterial essentially intelligible? Is anything immaterial essentially existent? Can any essentially immaterial existence be essentially intelligible since without material manifestation its existence cannot even be perceived let alone understood? As Feser is your favourite philosopher, David, I can only assume that you find all of this intelligible.-DAVID: I do. Remember, Feser got to this point from atheism, so there is a thoughtful road.-And I suspect that is the sole reason why he is one of your favourite philosophers. In my not very humble opinion, the point of language is to communicate, and I'm sorry, but I find Feser's language frequently unintelligible and self-consciously clever to the point of absurdity ... which is why I parodied it in my post. You have, understandably, ignored both his comments and mine, and they should indeed be ignored. The clear and concise quote you have provided below, presumably translated, illustrates my objections to Feser (who may be the nicest and cleverest man in the world for all I know ... I am only expressing my dislike of his philosophical waffle):
 
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."
Max Planck ... The Father Of Quantum Mechanics
 
You do not have to be a philosopher or a physicist to understand it. Like your own writing, it is not an attempt to dazzle the reader with the author's brilliance, or to create a philosophical barrage of words used independently of their everyday context and meaning in order to convey the impression of logic and profundity. Language, we all know, is an inadequate tool, and we frequently need several exchanges to sort out its implications and associations, but don't tell me you find Feser's language even remotely accessible.
 
DAVID: All I have to do is understand the basis of our reality is the quicksand of the quantum and I see God staring at me. It starts with accepting a first cause that is energy, thoughtful, organized energy.-I understand. Now explain to me what you understand by "the Necessary Existent has its existence essentially, and being an immaterial kind of existence its existence is something essentially intelligible." On second thoughts, don't bother.

Thomist thought on the soul and death

by David Turell @, Saturday, September 30, 2023, 22:06 (420 days ago) @ dhw

Another Feser article:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/nbfr.12867

"Aquinas holds that after death, the human soul can no longer change its basic orientation either toward God or away from him. He takes this to be knowable not only from divine revelation but by purely philosophical reasoning. The heart of his position is that the basic orientation of an angelic will is fixed immediately after its creation, and that the human soul after death is relevantly like an angel. This article expounds and defends Aquinas's position, paying special attention to the action theory underlying it."

Comment: I've read the article but cannot copy portions. It assumes on faith God exists, angels exist and human souls and will exist. At death the human soul becomes angelic and is now in a fixed form. Soul and will are affected by the human's material body but cannot be effectively changed in becoming an immaterial angel.

Angels don't reason. They simply 'know'. The reasoning human's soul, upon death, simply 'knows' the way angels 'know'. The transformation is immediate and complete. And the soul's will can no longer be changed.

All accepted on faith. dhw will complain, how do they know this? Faith is not knowing, it is believing. We are not dealing with fact. dhw's problem is he wants 'factual evidence' he cannot have and will never have. So he will remain in his agnostic quandary. I don't need proof. I have found evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

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