Automatic cell activity (Introduction)

by David Turell , Wednesday, April 24, 2013, 17:31 (4232 days ago) @ dhw
edited by unknown, Wednesday, April 24, 2013, 17:44

DAVID: You can anthropomorphize bacteria all you wish but they still are automatons, responding to chemical signals automatically. Why not recognize a God who can give bacteria such marvelous protections, they can live their lives, as they have for 3.5 billion years without having a thought or an organ of thought. 
> 
> dhw:There is a dislocation in this argument. If I believed in God and if I believed in the "intelligent cell", I would say to you: "Why not recognize a God who can give bacteria and his other inventions the ability to think and make their own decisions?" You seem to take this hypothesis as an argument against God, but just like Darwin's theory, it is perfectly compatible with belief in him. -I disagree. You are inventing intelligence in bacteria, where none exists except the information coded into DNA. I have described this as a two-step mechanism. A superior intelligene invented DNA and coded it so that bacteria could respond automatically and act as if they had intelligence.
> 
> DAVID: I haven't met a thoughtful molecule yet. But they certainly have reactions, none of them mental or emotional. To paraphrase G. Stein: a molecule is a molecule is a molecule; a string of atoms with electrical characteristics acting in a quantum fashion. No more, no less. Your lack of understanding organic chemistry has your reasoning in a box.
> 
> dhw: Yes, I lack understanding of organic chemistry, which is why I depend on experts for my information. You have drawn attention to the work of several such experts, only to find that one (Talbott) explicitly says that cells are not automatons, -Talbott is a philosoher, not an expert in organic chemistry. He is the frustrated one who cannot find a way out of his box.-> dhw: while a Nobel Prize-winning geneticist (McClintock) calls for research into "the extent of cellular self-knowledge". Why, then, must I accept your view that cells are automatons? Similarly, I take it seriously when a team of experts inform us that bacteria have individual freedom, make difficult choices between selfish and selfless behaviour, communicate with their neighbours about their choices, weigh their decisions carefully. These are not metaphors, and the findings could hardly offer clearer evidence of individual intelligence. -The intelligence is the the coder of the DNA. The DNA responses are automatic.-
> dhw: Even you agreed that McClintock "is right to ask for that study of cellular self-knowledge." If it is right for her, why is not right for me?-Her's is a reasonable request. Since the bacteria are so thoughtful, let's check and make sure there isn't evidence for intelligence at the cellular level. But her comment is ancient history, expressed many years ago before all the recent discoveries with fluorsecent molecules wandering throughthe cell acting like nano-machines. None of the authors of those studies imply thinking molecules in their discussions of the findings. It is all automatisms. -> dhw: But perhaps I'm able to take these ideas seriously because my reasoning is NOT in a box. I have not made up my mind, and so I'm reluctant to dismiss the work of scientists who do understand organic chemistry, even if their ideas run contrary to those of my science mentor!-The box is yours, boxed into non-decision making between chance and design, just like Talbott.-Taken from uncommon descent website:-" We know the Omega watch exists. Anyone who admits that the Omega watch needs any intelligent design at all should be a believer in Intelligent Design.
 
Evolution ( uppercase E ) is the belief that everything in the world evolved by blind chance.
 evolution ( lowercase e ) is the belief that some things evolve over time by blind chance.
 
Intelligent Design ( uppercase ID ) is the belief that the universe was created by a Designer (uppercase D ).
 
intelligent design ( lowercase id ) is the belief that some things in the universe ( like the Omega watch ) were created by a designer.
 
The interesting thing is that if you are truly honest: -ID being true allows both e, and id to take place.
 
E being true disallows id and only allows e.
 
So if E is true, the Omega watch was made by pure chance."