Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part I (Religion)

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Thursday, January 17, 2013, 22:14 (4326 days ago)

After a discussion with DHW where I admittedly lost my patience with him (which I am profusely sorry for, it is something I shall have to work on), I decided that instead of losing my patience and pulling out what little hair I have left, I would instead start a thread about the nature of parables and figurative language in the context of biblical texts. -**For the purpose of this thread, I am going to assume that the characters portrayed are real. That is the basic assumption of this article, though in most cases it is also a matter of fact according to archaeological records.**-For starters, it is imperative to realize that the the bible is purposefully obfuscatated. Jesus himself said, "That is why I use these parables, For they look, but they don't really see. They hear, but they don't really listen or understand.....This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world." (Matt 13:13 & Matt 13:35)-However, because the Bible does an excellent job at revealing the meanings of the parables to anyone willing to make an honest effort to find it, I see this as a simple filter. It is a way of sorting those that are serious in their attempts, and those that are not. -
In later additions to this thread, I will get into some of the actual parables and prophecies themselves, but for this article, I want to talk a little about how one goes about interpretting these parables. -Interpretation-Contrary to popular belief, you can not simply take a single verse from the bible, read it out of context, and expect to understand it. As mentioned previously, much of the information is intentionally obscured. However, there are additional challenges that must be faced. -The first, as is so often mentioned, is that there is a language barrier. The OT was written in Hebrew, and the NT primarily in Greek and/or Aramaic. None of these languages exist as they did at the time the books were written, so this naturally introduces a layer of uncertainty as concerns the translations. -The second major issue is that of bias on the part of the translator where by the translators personal prejudice biases the way that he translates key words or phrases in the text. Fortunately, of the two, this is the easiest to work around by the simple virtue of referencing multiple translations, and, when possible, referencing the source text.-The third major issue, is one of methodology. When interpreting biblical parables and prophecies, it is important to remember that they are generally cross-referenced through out the bible, and give a clear indication of what the proper interpretation should be, or at least what the context of that interpretation should be. For example, the wild beast with multiple heads and horns that is spoken of in the book of Revelation is cross-referenced to the book of Daniel(chapter 7/8), where the same type construct is used to specify political powers and kings. -Certain key words are also used through out the text in figurative senses where the meaning is uniform in its context. For example, earth, water, river, stream, wind, breath, all have a very uniform distribution of figurative examples throughout the text in which their meaning becomes clear. In short, it should never be up to the interpreter to interpret the bible. Instead, the interpreter should allow the bible to interpret itself. -
The next post in this series will discuss the interpretation of prophecy and the problems inherent in it, as well as the final checks and balances that are needed when interpreting the bible.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part II

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Thursday, January 17, 2013, 22:27 (4326 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Part II-Prophecy in the bible becomes a sticky subject, but it is not impenetrable. The primary difference between interpreting parables and prophecy in the bible is that you have to cross-reference history as well. The bible itself will give you enough detail to identify the references, but without a working knowledge of history the references will not always be clear.-An excellent example of this is in the book of Daniel, chapter 8. In this chapter, Daniel receives a vision of some creatures, and, more importantly, and explanation that we can use as a reference:-18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.-19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.-20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.-21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.-22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.-
Let's see, a powerful king of Greece that was 'broken' and replaced by four others... Alexander the Great. More importantly, we have a creature representing a world power and a horn representing a King. What about the rest of the prophecy? Did any of them ever achieve the success of Alexander, no. After the death of Alexander, Greece was never again a world power equal to what it was during his rule.-This particular chapter of the bible is what I like to refer to as a Key chapter, not because of its importance, but because it unlocks understanding of other parts of the bible. More examples will follow in the posts to come.-Key Scriptures-As mentioned previously, key scriptures unlock understanding of other prophecies. For example, the prophecy here in Daniel bears a striking resemblance to the prophecies of the wild beasts, and for good reason! The explanation of the words in Danial provide the basis for understanding the explanation of those same creatures in Revelation. -
There are several such key scriptures, and as this series of posts progresses I will do my best to link the key with the lock, as it were, so that you can verify it for yourself should you be so inclined. -Part III of the introduction to this thread is going to be (hopefully) the last post before we get into the meat and potatoes of some prophecy, and it is going to cover error checking methodology and warnings from the author about how to read and use the book.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part III

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Thursday, January 17, 2013, 23:08 (4326 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

David Turrel, in a recent post, commented on the nature of a concealed God and how it necessitated faith. In that, he is absolutely correct. Ironically, as mentioned in the first post of this thread, the Bible agrees with him and states that it is intentional. -There were some other warnings though, throughout the bible, that help define the methodology we use when interpreting it. -James 2:20 tells us that faith without works is dead, and he too is also correct.-John 17:3 Jesus said, "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you(YHWH) and the one whom you sent forth." -Matt 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.-Proverbs 3:5&6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight.-Proverbs 6:6 Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise-Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse-Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.-When interpreting the bible, and also other things, this gives some interesting criteria. -1) It is not enough to have faith in something, you must actively work to understand it. This is supposed to be one of the fundamental tenets of science as well.-2) Taking in knowledge of God is important, very important. Since it is also reasonable to say that God can be found in all of creation, then taking in knowledge of his creation is also important!(Wouldn't scientist be ashamed to know that they are fulfilling a biblical mandate? It just makes me giggle)-3) Do not lean upon your own understanding! This one is key, and the one most often left out. Human beings are remarkably imaginative, but also incredibly arrogant and biased. By warning us to not lean on our own understanding, we are being warned against letting our personal desires and biases influence our interpretation, not just of the Bible, but of all creation. (Chalk another one up for science :P)-4) Traits of God are seen in creation; if you want to learn about him, study his creation as well. (That is 3 mandates science follows unknowingly)--Essentially, all of this gives a couple of broad imperatives:-The Bible can not contradict itself. As in science, contradictions represent an inaccurate understanding of the data set. -The bible interprets itself, if you are patient enough to look.-Science can not contradict the bible, or vice versa. If there is a contradiction, then our understanding of one or the other is flawed. -Science that attempts to exclude God from their equations will naturally be proven inaccurate over time. -Faith is "assured" expectation. In order to build faith in the trustworthiness of the source, diligent effort must be made to vet the data and confirm the accuracy of all information that has been presented. In the case of prophecies, all that have already occurred should be diligently vetted and acknowledged.-
A healthy skepticism is one that makes you ask questions AND dig for answers. Questioning without searching for the truth is not skepticism, it is willful ignorance.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part III

by David Turell @, Friday, January 18, 2013, 01:46 (4325 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Tony: 2) Taking in knowledge of God is important, very important. Since it is also reasonable to say that God can be found in all of creation, then taking in knowledge of his creation is also important!(Wouldn't scientist be ashamed to know that they are fulfilling a biblical mandate? It just makes me giggle)
> 
> 4) Traits of God are seen in creation; if you want to learn about him, study his creation as well. (That is 3 mandates science follows unknowingly)
> 
> 
> A healthy skepticism is one that makes you ask questions AND dig for answers. Questioning without searching for the truth is not skepticism, it is willful ignorance.-I've picked out some of your statements with which I thoroughly agree. I am completely convinced a study of scientific findings can reveal God. There are two sides to this coin.

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part III

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Friday, January 18, 2013, 02:08 (4325 days ago) @ David Turell

Tony: 2) Taking in knowledge of God is important, very important. Since it is also reasonable to say that God can be found in all of creation, then taking in knowledge of his creation is also important!(Wouldn't scientist be ashamed to know that they are fulfilling a biblical mandate? It just makes me giggle)
> > 
> > 4) Traits of God are seen in creation; if you want to learn about him, study his creation as well. (That is 3 mandates science follows unknowingly)
> > 
> > 
> > A healthy skepticism is one that makes you ask questions AND dig for answers. Questioning without searching for the truth is not skepticism, it is willful ignorance.
> 
> David: I've picked out some of your statements with which I thoroughly agree. I am completely convinced a study of scientific findings can reveal God. There are two sides to this coin.-As I said, science and anything claiming to be from God can not disagree; if they do, either one is false, or our understanding of the data is false. Either way, if creation is of God, and some written word is from God, they can not disagree.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part III

by David Turell @, Friday, January 18, 2013, 16:07 (4325 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Tony: As I said, science and anything claiming to be from God can not disagree; if they do, either one is false, or our understanding of the data is false. Either way, if creation is of God, and some written word is from God, they can not disagree.-Here we are in total disagreement, since I do not accept your view that the Bible is innerent. Like dhw I view the Bible as written by fallible human beings. It is not the direct word of God. Genesis, as I've noted, is thought to have several authors, as a simple example. The NT is all heresay as I view it. Thus we are discussing from very opposite viewpoints. We both need to keep that in mind.

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part III

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Friday, January 18, 2013, 17:00 (4325 days ago) @ David Turell

You are correct in that we are discussing it from very different view points. What I posted in the first few sections of this thread are the criteria that I am using. I am not Jewish.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part III

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Friday, January 18, 2013, 17:24 (4325 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

I found Parts I and II quite interesting in explaining how to interpret the Bible. You mention that there are other key passages like that in Daniel. I look forward to hearing what these are.-I wonder if you have ever read the works of Isaac Newton on the prophecies of Daniel? I must admit I have not, though I have often heard of them. Perhaps they are by now available on the internet. I must do a search.-The explanation of the beast in terms of powers and principalities, and the connection with the great historical changes following the death of Alexander are all quite convincing.

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GPJ

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part III

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Friday, January 18, 2013, 18:16 (4325 days ago) @ George Jelliss

I found Parts I and II quite interesting in explaining how to interpret the Bible. You mention that there are other key passages like that in Daniel. I look forward to hearing what these are.
> -I am actually looking forward to writing them. It will be the first time I have tried to document and codify the rationale behind my beliefs for anyone other than myself. So, it should be fun.-> I wonder if you have ever read the works of Isaac Newton on the prophecies of Daniel? I must admit I have not, though I have often heard of them. Perhaps they are by now available on the internet. I must do a search.
> 
I had never even heard of it! Thanks for the tip. I will see what I can find. -> The explanation of the beast in terms of powers and principalities, and the connection with the great historical changes following the death of Alexander are all quite convincing.-Well, I am trying to formulate a methodology that can be rigorously tested. Maybe what faith needs is a bit of science to help it along.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part III

by David Turell @, Friday, January 18, 2013, 18:47 (4325 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained


> Tony: Well, I am trying to formulate a methodology that can be rigorously tested. Maybe what faith needs is a bit of science to help it along.-I've done it the other way 'round. From science to faith.

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part III

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Sunday, February 17, 2013, 20:30 (4295 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

This video may be of interest in this context. 
(Though it's an hour long and a bit slow.)-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfavPOyWDJk&feature=youtu.be-It maintains that Jesus is entirely mythical, 
and cites as evidence two epistles, attributed to Clement and Barnabas, 
that he claims from internal evidence must be misdated.-The idea is that the story of the actual Jesus 
was set 70 years before the sacking of Jerusalem in 70AD
because 70 is a mystic number derived from the precession of the equinoxes.

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GPJ

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part III

by David Turell @, Monday, February 18, 2013, 15:42 (4294 days ago) @ George Jelliss


> George: The idea is that the story of the actual Jesus 
> was set 70 years before the sacking of Jerusalem in 70AD
> because 70 is a mystic number derived from the precession of the equinoxes.-The only defect I can see in this video presentation is the discussion by Josephus. If Jesus lived at the time Josephus was a young boy as is curently presumed, Josephus knew of him through stories he heard later on in Josephus' life. This would place Jesus at the earlier age now thought true with the birth of Jesus at about 4BCE and death at 29 CE. Josephus never saw Jesus alive. The entry in Josephus may be a forgery. There is no archeological proof of Jesus. The ossuary of James, his brother, is also thought to be a fake. Christianity is always to be taken on faith. Judaism survived despite this side story, and still does not accept any of the Christian beliefs. And modern Judaism understands that Genesis is to be read figuratively, no talking snakes. Lord Sachs explains that well in his debate with Dawkins.

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies: James is back

by David Turell @, Monday, November 19, 2018, 00:07 (2194 days ago) @ David Turell

Whether Jesus had a brother, James, has not been settled, but a newly-found manuscript again mentions him:

https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/the-story-of-jesuss-brother-gets-even-weirder

"Whether Jesus had any siblings is an old debate within Christianity. A number of passages in the New Testament have been stoking this speculation for almost two thousand years. The Gospel of Mark mentions Jesus having brothers and sisters, while the Gospel of Matthew talks about his “brothers" James, Joseph, Simon and Judas. Are these references more figurative than literal, meaning these are just spiritual brothers? An incredible recent find of an ancient text just put James back in the spotlight of this controversial mystery.

***

"Another saint who lived around the same time, Epiphanius, the bishop of Salamis, argued that Joseph had children from a previous marriage, which would make them Jesus's step-siblings.

"Many Protestant churches, on the other hand, are open to Mary having other children, with Jesus being the oldest. Ben Witherington III, professor of New Testament Interpretation at Asbury Theological Seminary, thinks that James and Jesus were full brothers.

"'The New Testament says nothing about Mary being a perpetual virgin, it says she virginally conceived Jesus, and it certainly implies that she went on to have more children after that, and his brothers and sisters are in fact his brothers and sisters," said Witherington.

***

"In late 2017, scholars announced the discovery an original Greek copy of a heretical Christian manuscript that tells the story of what Jesus secretly taught his “brother" James - also known as “James the Just", an early leader of the Church.

"Several fragments from the “First Apocalypse of James" were identified by the biblical researchers Geoffrey Smith and Brent Landau from the University of Texas at Austin. Previously, all versions of this fifth- or sixth- century document were only available in Coptic translations.

"To say that we were excited once we realized what we'd found is an understatement," said Smith. "We never suspected that Greek fragments of the First Apocalypse of James survived from antiquity. But there they were, right in front of us."

"The writings were a part of the Nag Hammadi library at Oxford University, containing 13 Coptic Gnostic books, found in 1945 in Egypt. Gnosticism was a Jewish Christian mystical movement in the 1st and 2nd century AD.

"The text of the “First Apocalypse of James" is apocryphal - not accepted into the official canons of Christianity as it was defined in 367 A.D. by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria. It tells of Jesus's teachings to James, to whom he often refers to as “my brother," about heaven and future happenings, including when James would die. Jesus also does specify here that James is not his “brother materially."
'
"The text supplements the biblical account of Jesus' life and ministry by allowing us access to conversations that purportedly took place between Jesus and his brother, James — secret teachings that allowed James to be a good teacher after Jesus' death," explained Smith.

"Smith also noted that their discovery shows that Christians were reading and studying texts outside the main canon even long after they were prohibited.

"More specifically, as Landau elaborated in an email to Newsweek, what the text fragments reveal is Jesus reassuring James that although a violent death awaits them both, death is not something to be afraid of. James just needs to know how to act when death comes."

comment: All the controversy is fueled by religious beliefs without attention to possible fact. Fixed religious beliefs do not help is ascertaining accurate history.

Interpreting Parables and Prophecies, Part III

by David Turell @, Friday, January 18, 2013, 18:41 (4325 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

Tony: You are correct in that we are discussing it from very different view points. What I posted in the first few sections of this thread are the criteria that I am using. I am not Jewish.-Fair enough. I am, and extremely proud of it. I don't practice for reasons about religion I have given.

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