Dawkins\' Scale (Agnosticism)

by romansh ⌂ @, Thursday, January 03, 2013, 19:01 (4344 days ago)
edited by unknown, Thursday, January 03, 2013, 19:14

For those who don't know it, here is Dawkins' scale. I cannot fault it.
Here's my take on the scale.
>1. Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
This I think is fair enough, but I do think the choice of quote is horrible. The context I suspect completely misrepresents Jung's point of view in what we everyday conversation represent as god. For Jung god was very much a metaphor.
>2. De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
What's a very high probability? 75%? How do I measure the probability? This might be the way Dawkins' and your mind works (dhw) but it certainly is not the way my mind works.
>3. Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
Err what's not very high
>4. Completely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
This of course is not measurable from a scientific point of view. What are the error bars on this equiprobability? While I may have fallen into the same trap with my belief bubbles, agnosticism is not just about god. It is not just about the supposedly metaphysical. But it is about how we handle evidence.
>5. Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
So dhw are you a #4 agnostic? If so where would you fall on the scale when broached with a literalist interpretation of god, say when compared to Spinoza's god? So what do we have to do is get ratings for every conceivable god and run a Monte carlo simulation to get a probability?
>6. De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
So do you live your life as there is a god dhw? If so which one and how would it differ from Dawkins' life lived?
>7. Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."
Fair enough - just the Jung context bugs me.-
Regarding gnostic agnosticism (I know we cannot know). Speaking personally I have to keep reminding myself that all I can truly say is "I don't know". If I add "but I believe" then am I not committing the sin of fideism?-
>> [dhw] Our approach is quite different, but I am a simpler soul than you. For me, a moderate atheist would be one who is not TOTALLY convinced of God's non-existence, in which case he is allowing for some possibility that God does exist, so there is no mutual exclusion between atheism and agnosticism. -Then by your definition Dawkins is a moderate, is he not?->> [dhw] I likened Dawkins' arrogant intolerance to that of the religious fundamentalists he attacks.-You are missing my point here dhw. In what light should I perceive your attacks on Dawkins?

Dawkins\' Scale (Part One)

by dhw, Friday, January 04, 2013, 12:54 (4343 days ago) @ romansh

Part One-(I think it's important to have Dawkins' scale and Romansh's comments here for reference, though it means a response in two parts. Sorry.)-1. Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
ROM: This I think is fair enough, but I do think the choice of quote is horrible. The context I suspect completely misrepresents Jung's point of view in what we everyday conversation represent as god. For Jung god was very much a metaphor.-2. De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
ROM: What's a very high probability? 75%? How do I measure the probability? This might be the way Dawkins' and your mind works (dhw) but it certainly is not the way my mind works.-3. Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
ROM: Err what's not very high-4. Completely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
ROM: This of course is not measurable from a scientific point of view. What are the error bars on this equiprobability? While I may have fallen into the same trap with my belief bubbles, agnosticism is not just about god. It is not just about the supposedly metaphysical. But it is about how we handle evidence.-5. Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
ROM: So dhw are you a #4 agnostic? If so where would you fall on the scale when broached with a literalist interpretation of god, say when compared to Spinoza's god? So what do we have to do is get ratings for every conceivable god and run a Monte carlo simulation to get a probability?-6. De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
ROM: So do you live your life as there is a god dhw? If so which one and how would it differ from Dawkins' life lived?-7. Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."
ROM: Fair enough - just the Jung context bugs me.-As I see it, many of your questions and comments are a demand for objectivity in a field that can only be subjective. We all know you can't measure belief any more than you can measure happiness, love, beauty etc., and Dawkins has allowed for this with his little "quotes": within the framework of 100, 50/50, 100, each individual "I" decides his own degree of probability, which god(s) he does/doesn't believe in, what role his beliefs/non beliefs/disbeliefs play in his life. You have used the adjectives weak and strong in your own posts (see below), and I actually find Dawkins' categories helpful in understanding what you are trying to say.-In answer to your personal questions, I would place myself in category 4,though at different times I fluctuate very slightly either way. I do not have any precise concept of a god, and so I live my life in accordance with my own subjective principles which do not involve any type of god, and I am in no position to know how it differs from Dawkins' life or anybody else's, apart perhaps from my immediate family.-In the context of mutual exclusion between atheism (disbelief in god(s))/theism (belief in god(s)) and agnosticism (non-belief in god(s)), I don't see how the discussion can be about anything other than the existence of god(s). How we handle evidence is the process leading to atheism/theism/agnosticism, which again will vary from individual to individual.-Your questions are, of course, perfectly fair, but you could just as well turn your technique on your own arguments, as follows:
Dhw: As I see it, agnosticism and theism/atheism can only be mutually exclusive for fundamentalists on either side.
ROM: I disagree dhw ... they can be mutually exclusive for moderates who hold on their definitions too tightly as well. A fundamentalist (strong) atheist might be open to having weak atheists and some agnostics fall within the atheist definition. -So, what constitutes a moderate, where do you draw the borderlines between moderates and fundamentalists, how tightly is too tightly, who judges what is tight and too tight, how do you define a fundamentalist/strong/weak atheist, how does a fundamentalist define a weak atheist, why "some agnostics", how do you differentiate between agnostic and agnostic, what is "the" atheist definition? There is no end to this game, and communication eventually becomes impossible.

Dawkins\' Scale (Part Two)

by dhw, Friday, January 04, 2013, 13:02 (4343 days ago) @ dhw

Part Two-ROMANSH: Regarding gnostic agnosticism (I know we cannot know). Speaking personally I have to keep reminding myself that all I can truly say is "I don't know". If I add "but I believe" then am I not committing the sin of fideism?-I don't know why you regard fideism as a sin. Ultimately, religious belief like belief in the creative powers of chance has to rest on faith, since no-one knows the ultimate truth. In my view, having faith is no more a sin than not having faith. Personally, I do not see reason (or science) as the only reliable guide to truth.-dhw: For me, a moderate atheist would be one who is not TOTALLY convinced of God's non-existence, in which case he is allowing for some possibility that God does exist, so there is no mutual exclusion between atheism and agnosticism. 
ROMANSH: Then by your definition Dawkins is a moderate, is he not?-Fair comment. I should have stuck to Dawkins' excellent scale of probabilities. A moderate would be his category 5. However, I will stick to my claim that mutual exclusion only applies to 100% conviction. If you want concrete figures here, I can provide them, though I would regard the exercise as "childish" (your epithet ... very unjust in my view ... for Dawkins' scale). I take "mutually exclusive" to be an absolute, and I will use "compatible" for its opposite. Therefore atheism/theism and agnosticism are mutually exclusive when the former are 100%. If an atheist claims 99% certainty, his beliefs are 1% compatible with theism and agnosticism, and hence we do not have mutual exclusion. If you do not consider "mutually exclusive" to be an absolute, its relativity will be in accordance with the percentages each individual allots to his convictions. (I too can play games!)-Dhw: I likened Dawkins' arrogant intolerance to that of the religious fundamentalists he attacks.
ROMANSH: You are missing my point here dhw. In what light should I perceive your attacks on Dawkins?-I have explained that by "arrogant intolerance" I mean an approach that ridicules or threatens other people and their beliefs on the grounds that the speaker is convinced that he knows the truth. Dawkins ridicules religious beliefs, calls believers "deluded" and advocates the eradication of their faith. I regard that as arrogant intolerance. If I've missed your point, do please put me right.

Dawkins\' Scale (Part Two)

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, January 05, 2013, 18:57 (4342 days ago) @ dhw

[dhw] I don't know why you regard fideism as a sin. Ultimately, religious belief like belief in the creative powers of chance has to rest on faith, since no-one knows the ultimate truth.
Now personally I happen to think 'chance' is a better model of evolution, no matter how much some of us may misrepresent or misunderstand the concept of 'chance'. Regarding 'sin' - it was meant to be a joke.-> [dhw] .... games ... 
yes strong and gnostic atheism I would agree are incompatible with agnosticism. it was not a game for me, but clarity. If a weak atheist can say I do not disbelieve in god then this individual might also be an agnostic. -By some definitions we are atheists. -> [dhw] I have explained that by "arrogant intolerance" I mean an approach that ridicules or threatens other people and their beliefs on the grounds that the speaker is convinced that he knows the truth-So you have defined what "arrogant intolerance" is for you. Can you cite one instance where Dawkins has threatened another person? Because that is what your definition implies.-That Dawkins might go in with both feet and studs showing on religions that promote say female circumscision is far better to me, in my way of thinking, than being an apologist because we can never know the ultimate truth.-I have mentioned before agnosticism is not about being stuck up on some fence thinking we can see further because we understand there is ultimate truth. It is about being in the mud and the dirt.

Dawkins\' Scale (Part Two)

by dhw, Sunday, January 06, 2013, 12:32 (4341 days ago) @ romansh

Part Two-dhw: I don't know why you regard fideism as a sin. Ultimately, religious belief like belief in the creative powers of chance has to rest on faith, since no-one knows the ultimate truth.
ROM: Now personally I happen to think 'chance' is a better model of evolution, no matter how much some of us may misrepresent or misunderstand the concept of 'chance'. Regarding 'sin' - it was meant to be a joke.-My reference to chance was to the belief that the almost unfathomably complex mechanisms for life, reproduction, adaptation and innovation assembled themselves spontaneously. It suits some atheistic evolutionists to "misrepresent or misunderstand" this concept of 'chance' by focusing on evolution itself and not on the problem of origins. Sorry I missed the joke, but in that case, what was the point of your question about fideism?
 
ROM: yes strong and gnostic atheism I would agree are incompatible with agnosticism. it was not a game for me, but clarity. If a weak atheist can say I do not disbelieve in god then this individual might also be an agnostic. -For me atheism is disbelief in god(s). If someone says I do not believe or disbelieve in god(s), by my definition he is an agnostic, not an atheist. I find Dawkins' "technically agnostic but leaning towards theism/atheism" far less confusing than your weak atheist who might ALSO be an agnostic. -ROM: By some definitions we are atheists.-Which of course makes nonsense of your reference earlier to "THE atheist definition", and to the suggestion that "subjectivity versus objectivity is whole other discussion". It all depends on which definition people use (= subjectivity).-Dhw: I have explained that by "arrogant intolerance" I mean an approach that ridicules or threatens other people and their beliefs on the grounds that the speaker is convinced that he knows the truth.
ROM: So you have defined what "arrogant intolerance" is for you. Can you cite one instance where Dawkins has threatened another person? Because that is what your definition implies.-I very carefully used the word "or", and very carefully stressed that Dawkins "ridicules". My use of "threaten" was a reference to the religions which D. attacks (see my post of 02 January at 11.46 under 'Rabbi Sacks', where this discussion originated), all of which at one time or another have advocated violence against those who do not share their brand of faith. In other posts I have gone out of my way to point out that D. does NOT advocate violence (e.g. 1 January at 20.08 under 'Rabbi Sacks').-ROM: That Dawkins might go in with both feet and studs showing on religions that promote say female circumscision is far better to me, in my way of thinking, than being an apologist because we can never know the ultimate truth.-You don't have to be a militant atheist to abhor female circumcision, sexual discrimination, the ban on contraception, fatwahs or suicide bombers. My criticism of Dawkins has nothing whatsoever to do with his humanist principles, which I share, but with his ridicule of explanations which are no more and no less irrational than his own.-ROM: I have mentioned before agnosticism is not about being stuck up on some fence thinking we can see further because we understand there is ultimate truth. It is about being in the mud and the dirt.-I myself am stuck on the fence because I haven't a clue what the ultimate truth is. What you call the strong theists/atheists think they have, and one or other of them may be right. Because of my self-confessed ignorance I argue for tolerance, and I think it is a sign of arrogant intolerance if one party ridicules or threatens another party that has a different view from their own. However, if my subjective view of what constitutes ridicule, arrogance and intolerance is different from yours, we shall just have to agree to disagree.

Dawkins\' Scale (Part Two)

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 06, 2013, 15:06 (4341 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: My criticism of Dawkins has nothing whatsoever to do with his humanist principles, which I share, but with his ridicule of explanations which are no more and no less irrational than his own.-His most irrational explanation is giving natural selection a forceful and positive role in evolution, when it clearly is entirely passive in the production of new forms, and becomes an active force only when it is a judge of the competition between forms, if there is such competition.

Dawkins\' Scale (Part One)

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, January 05, 2013, 18:32 (4342 days ago) @ dhw
edited by unknown, Saturday, January 05, 2013, 19:17

[dhw] As I see it, many of your questions and comments are a demand for objectivity in a field that can only be subjective.
Objectivity versus subjectivity is a whole another discussion. The way I see it Dawkins tried to make a behaviourly anchored rating scale to make this less subjective. I still suggest that the 'anchors' Dawkins uses are childish. -> [dhw] I would place myself in category 4,though at different times I fluctuate very slightly either way.
So you might move to a five if I were to suggest a literalist interpretation of a six thousand year old Earth? What a about a ten minute old Earth?-> [dhw] I don't see how the discussion can be about anything other than the existence of god(s). 
Speaking personally I don't care about literal gods, I might enter a conversation on the subject because that is the way the prevailing wind is blowing. -> [dhw] So, what constitutes a moderate, where do you draw the borderlines between moderates and fundamentalists
These are labels I try not to use. But I do use weak, strong, gnostic as they are philosophically speaking well defined. (I think).

Dawkins\' Scale (Part One)

by dhw, Sunday, January 06, 2013, 12:24 (4341 days ago) @ romansh

Part One
 
Dhw: As I see it, many of your questions and comments are a demand for objectivity in a field that can only be subjective.
ROM: Objectivity versus subjectivity is whole other discussion. -I think it's impossible to avoid objectivity versus subjectivity in a discussion on the nature of belief.
 
ROM: The way I see it Dawkins tried to make a behaviourly anchored rating scale to make this less subjective. I still suggest that the 'anchors' Dawkins uses are childish. -The anchor is not behaviour (mentioned only in 2 and 6) but subjective assessment of probability. What other anchor would you expect him to use for what he calls a "spectrum of probabilities"? I would call it an attempt to provide an objective definition of subjective distinctions, and frankly I can't see much difference between his grades of probability and your own use of weak and strong, except that his distinctions are more clearly defined than yours.
 
Dhw: I would place myself in category 4,though at different times I fluctuate very slightly either way.
ROM: So you might move to a five if I were to suggest a literalist interpretation of a six thousand year old Earth? What about a ten minute old Earth?-My rejection of Young Earth Creationism has nothing whatsoever to do with agnosticism. You have ignored my response to your first post, that Dawkins' scheme allows for any type of god(s). Earlier, you told us that Greeks and Romans called Christians atheists. Your own argument would also make our David an atheist because he rejects YEC, Zeus and Christianity, but a theist because he believes in the panentheist god. I repeat, Dawkins' scheme allows for ANY god chosen by the subjective "I". What god(s) do your weak/strong theists/atheists believe/disbelieve in? My own agnosticism concerns any kind of super-intelligence that created the world.
 
Dhw: I don't see how the discussion can be about anything other than the existence of god(s). 
ROM: Speaking personally I don't care about literal gods, I might enter a conversation on the subject because that is the way the prevailing wind is blowing. -My comment was in response to your claim that agnosticism was not just about god, but about the way we handle evidence. However, since you yourself are (I think) an agnostic, may I ask what kind of god you neither believe nor disbelieve in?-dhw: So, what constitutes a moderate, where do you draw the borderlines between moderates and fundamentalists
ROM: These are labels I try not to use. -You didn't try very hard (see later)!
 
ROM: But I do use weak, strong, gnostic as they are philosophically speaking well defined. (I think).-Then please define weak/strong theists/atheists for me. 
Meanwhile, you have taken my question out of its context, which I will repeat for the sake of clarification:-Dhw: As I see it, agnosticism and theism/atheism can only be mutually exclusive for fundamentalists on either side.
ROM: I disagree dhw ... they can be mutually exclusive for MODERATES who hold on their definitions too tightly as well. A fundamentalist (strong) atheist might be open to having weak atheists and some agnostics fall within the atheist definition.
 
My questions were: "So, what constitutes a moderate, where do you draw the borderlines between moderates and fundamentalists, how tightly is too tightly, who judges what is tight and too tight, how do you define a fundamentalist/strong/weak atheist, how does a fundamentalist define a weak atheist, why "some agnostics", how do you differentiate between agnostic and agnostic, what is "the" atheist definition? There is no end to this game, and communication eventually becomes impossible." I didn't expect an answer ... I was merely pointing out that you had laid yourself open to the same sorts of questions with which you were attacking Dawkins' categories.
 
It might be interesting to know if others find Dawkins' scale useful or not, clear or not, childish or not.

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