Velikovsky nut butter (Introduction)
by David Turell , Tuesday, October 23, 2012, 19:27 (4391 days ago)
A new book has put a nut to rest. "The Pseudo-science Wars" by Michael D. Gordon does just that. Goodbye Velikovski. What weird ideas he had, and folks swallowed them whole. -http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444709004577651741918258080.html?KEYWORDS=Science+Strange+and+Dangerous
Velikovsky nut butter
by dhw, Thursday, October 25, 2012, 17:58 (4389 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: A new book has put a nut to rest. "The Pseudo-science Wars" by Michael D. Gordon does just that. Goodbye Velikovsky. What weird ideas he had, and folks swallowed them whole. -http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444709004577651741918258080.html?KEYWORDS...-I have forwarded this article to the Secretary of the Society for Interdisciplinary Studies, as she will be far better placed than I am to respond. The SIS is not a Velikovsky mouthpiece ... there is vehement opposition to many of his ideas and conclusions ... but it was his work that led to the formation of the society back in 1974. For more information see www.sis-group.org.uk-I will, however, comment on David's post. David, you frequently point us in the direction of articles on Creationist sites, warning us not to reject the science just because of the provenance. In Section 5 of the "Brief Guide", I have referred to Velikovsky's attempt to collate ancient myths and legends and link them with the Earth's history and with geological and cosmic catastrophes. He was a champion of catastrophism (anticipating punctuated equilibrium) at a time (the 1950s) when uniformitarianism was the order of the day, and whatever may have been his shortcomings, his interdisciplinary approach was not only a prodigious undertaking in itself, but has also initiated lines of inquiry that are a very long way from being exhausted. He may not have been a Copernicus, but I would hesitate to call his then ridiculed opposition to Darwinian gradualism the work of a "nut". Here is an extract from Chapter 5 of a book called Darwin's Enigma by Luther Sunderland (© 1988):-"Another book by Velikovsky, Earth in Upheaval, gave an even more convincing case for worldwide Catastrophism. While the earlier book [Worlds in Collision] included extensive documentation from literature and folklore showing that every civilization had witnessed cosmic disturbances, this book contained a massive amount of geological and paleontological evidence showing that catastrophes were the primary mechanism for fossil deposition and formation. It also gave evidence that conflicted with Darwinism. -At first the scientific community was solidly opposed to Velikovsky, and it gave him very shoddy treatment, calling him a heretic. But after over 50 of his predictions were shown to be correct through space program research, some scientists began to reconsider his ideas. Although today few conventional astronomers agree with some of his hypotheses about the recent interaction among Mars, Venus and Earth, close encounters of Earth and comets or stars are now openly discussed. In fact, most of the recent geological conferences have been dominated by discussions of worldwide catastrophes which caused mass extinctions of almost all life -- perhaps 96 percent of the species."-The article you refer to is right to point out the difficulty of "demarcation" between science and pseudoscience. It is also difficult to draw borderlines between science and philosophy, as we know from the diametrically opposite conclusions scientists often draw from the same evidence. I don't know that Velikovsky's theory about Venus is any nuttier than that of different versions of you and me battling it out in multiple or parallel universes but, as the above extract suggests, it is clear that at least some of his ideas were not as weird as the scientific establishment wanted us to believe. But when the scientific establishment makes its pronouncements, some folk swallow them whole!
Velikovsky nut butter
by David Turell , Thursday, October 25, 2012, 18:40 (4389 days ago) @ dhw
Although today few conventional astronomers agree with some of his hypotheses about the recent interaction among Mars, Venus and Earth, close encounters of Earth and comets or stars are now openly discussed. In fact, most of the recent geological conferences have been dominated by discussions of worldwide catastrophes which caused mass extinctions of almost all life -- perhaps 96 percent of the species."-His theory about Venus is obviously wacky. We know of asteroid-dinosaur death and that the Earth is threatened by near-Earth asteroids. This is solid science. But the fact that we are discussing these possible catastrophies does not validate Velikovsky and the weird theories the book refutes.
Velikovsky nut butter
by dhw, Friday, October 26, 2012, 17:50 (4388 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: A new book has put a nut to rest. "The Pseudo-science Wars" by Michael D. Gordon does just that. Goodbye Velikovsky. What weird ideas he had, and folks swallowed them whole.-http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444709004577651741918258080.html?KEYWORDS...-dhw: He was a champion of catastrophism (anticipating punctuated equilibrium) at a time (the 1950s) when uniformitarianism was the order of the day, and whatever may have been his shortcomings, his interdisciplinary approach was not only a prodigious undertaking in itself, but has also initiated lines of inquiry that are a very long way from being exhausted. -DAVID: His theory about Venus is obviously wacky. We know of asteroid-dinosaur death and that the Earth is threatened by near-Earth asteroids. This is solid science. But the fact that we are discussing these possible catastrophes does not validate Velikovsky and the weird theories the book refutes.-Not having read the book, I don't know which other theories it refutes. Does it, for instance, provide evidence to confirm the conventional chronology of the ancient world, which he challenged? I don't feel qualified to defend or attack the vast range of ideas Velikovsky covered, and no doubt some of them were "wacky", but as for the fact that we are discussing catastrophes, it certainly does validate some of his theories, as is clear from the quote you omitted: "Another book by Velikovsky, Earth in Upheaval, gave an even more convincing case for worldwide Catastrophism. While the earlier book [Worlds in Collision] included extensive documentation from literature and folklore showing that every civilization had witnessed cosmic disturbances, this book contained a massive amount of geological and paleontological evidence showing that catastrophes were the primary mechanism for fossil deposition and formation. It also gave evidence that conflicted with Darwinism. At first the scientific community was solidly opposed to Velikovsky, and it gave him very shoddy treatment, calling him a heretic. But after over 50 of his predictions were shown to be correct through space program research, some scientists began to reconsider his ideas."-Here are two weird theories for you to consider: 1) The astonishingly complex mechanisms that govern life and evolution assembled themselves by sheer accident. 2) Human intelligence is so complex that it could only have been designed. So it must have been designed by an even greater intelligence that didn't need to be designed. Any weirder than the theory that the Earth has been subjected to catastrophic collisions and near collisions? Ah well, perhaps I'm too tolerant. I love all these nuts, and I really don't want to wave goodbye to any of them.
Velikovsky nut butter
by David Turell , Friday, October 26, 2012, 18:40 (4388 days ago) @ dhw
> dhw: Here are two weird theories for you to consider: > 1) The astonishingly complex mechanisms that govern life and evolution assembled themselves by sheer accident. > 2) Human intelligence is so complex that it could only have been designed. So it must have been designed by an even greater intelligence that didn't need to be designed. > Any weirder than the theory that the Earth has been subjected to catastrophic collisions and near colisions? Ah well, perhaps I'm too tolerant. I love all these nuts, and I really don't want to wave goodbye to any of them.-I am one of those nuts. You know I don't use religion to establish proof of God. I ignore religion. It has no basis in fact. Give me good scientific findings and I can prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt, God exists. Ask Eben Alexander!Velikovski as a shrink needed a shrink. But we need the nuts to make us think and defend our positions.
Velikovsky nut butter
by dhw, Saturday, October 27, 2012, 19:45 (4387 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Here are two weird theories for you to consider: 1) The astonishingly complex mechanisms that govern life and evolution assembled themselves by sheer accident. 2) Human intelligence is so complex that it could only have been designed. So it must have been designed by an even greater intelligence that didn't need to be designed. Any weirder than the theory that the Earth has been subjected to catastrophic collisions and near collisions? Ah well, perhaps I'm too tolerant. I love all these nuts, and I really don't want to wave goodbye to any of them.-DAVID: I am one of those nuts. You know I don't use religion to establish proof of God. I ignore religion. It has no basis in fact. Give me good scientific findings and I can prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt, God exists. Ask Eben Alexander! Velikovski as a shrink needed a shrink. But we need the nuts to make us think and defend our positions.-Eben Alexander was not converted by science but by a subjective experience. However, let me reassure you that I do not regard you as a nut! Nor do I regard Dawkins as a nut. Nor do I regard Velikovsky as a nut. You have all mingled science with unprovable, non-scientific conclusions, but I am in no position to judge let alone prove which of your non-scientific ideas correspond to the truth. Nor are you, nor are they. No-one is. When scientific claims are proved beyond a reasonable scientific doubt to be false, by all means let us discount them. If Velikovsky were alive today, he himself would certainly be revising many of his own theories. But that does not invalidate his integrity, his claims to sanity, or those ideas which have borne fruit despite the scorn poured on him by the scientific establishment. And may I very gently and respectfully point out that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones!
Velikovsky nut butter
by David Turell , Saturday, October 27, 2012, 22:49 (4387 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: If Velikovsky were alive today, he himself would certainly be revising many of his own theories. But that does not invalidate his integrity, his claims to sanity, -Do you know where he got the idea of a wandering Venus from? I don't
Velikovsky nut butter
by dhw, Sunday, October 28, 2012, 19:14 (4386 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: If Velikovsky were alive today, he himself would certainly be revising many of his own theories. But that does not invalidate his integrity, his claims to sanity, or those ideas which have borne fruit despite the scorn poured on him by the scientific establishment.-DAVID: Do you know where he got the idea of a wandering Venus from? I don't.-Clearly you are one of many who have dismissed Velikovsky as a nut without even having read his work! Most people know the story of Minerva springing from the head of Jupiter. Velikovsky discovered (initially, I think, by accident) that this Roman (and Greek) myth had many counterparts in other mythologies. This sparked the idea that such myths, instead of merely being fanciful tales, might have been passed down through the generations as fictionalized accounts of real events. He did a prodigious amount of research, not only into world mythology but also into ancient history and cosmology (including the Bible). The more he studied, the more he became convinced that Venus had broken off from Jupiter (I think as a result of a massive collision), had initially formed a comet, and only in more recent times had settled into orbit as a planet. On at least two occasions in its life as a comet, and in the course of human history, it had come close to Earth and caused havoc. I really can't go into more detail than this about the Venus theory ... which of course is only part of his work ... as it's many years since I read Worlds in Collision and Earth in Upheaval (in which he presents geological and paleontological evidence), but I know that his championship of catastrophism as opposed to the then orthodox uniformitarianism created massive hostility in the scientific establishment, which not only vilified him but also attempted to suppress his writings. As was mentioned in the Luther Sunderland book, many of his predictions turned out to be correct, but the establishment still dismisses them as lucky guesses or as ideas that had already been mooted. A book published this year by Laird Scranton, entitled The Velikovsky Heresies, apparently gives a balanced account. On one of the Amazon sites I found an extremely helpful review by someone calling himself SmokeNMirrors:-"The analysis is even-handed and open-minded and presents the pros and cons of both sides of the question, and ultimately arrives at the conclusion that those detractors who insist that Velikovsky's theory has been disproven are not being completely honest. The author concludes, based on the following points, that Velikovsky's thesis is still theoretically possible in the second decade of the twenty-first century despite the efforts of detractors (the vast majority of whom have never read a single word Velikovsky actually wrote) both inside and outside the world of academia." -He goes on to list many of the recent scientific discoveries that would seem to support Velikovsky's theories. (The parenthesis is his, not mine!)
Velikovsky nut butter
by George Jelliss , Crewe, Sunday, October 28, 2012, 20:24 (4386 days ago) @ dhw
Just thought I'd take a look to see what you are all doing in this little rock pool again. The arguments still seem to be much the same!-I read Velikovsky years ago, and it was evident to me at the time that he was a nut, on the same lines as Danican and his ancient aliens.-But of course his stories were colourful and interesting, being based on myths and legends. They just didn't make any sense in terms of Newtonian mechanics, for one thing.-Believing something because it makes a good story is just not a sufficient criterion.-Mind you I've always been sceptical about these theories involving rogue planets (such as the current theory of the origin of the Moon). There just seem to have been so many of them about, and where are they now? They are a bit too much like deus ex machina (or the plural of that). However the evidence does seem to be piling up to support that theory, so maybe I shall have to accept it, reluctantly.
--
GPJ
Velikovsky nut butter
by dhw, Monday, October 29, 2012, 17:38 (4385 days ago) @ George Jelliss
GEORGE: Just thought I'd take a look to see what you are all doing in this little rock pool again. The arguments still seem to be much the same!-I'm sure I'm not the only one who is delighted to have you join us in the pool again, even if it's just for a brief splash. There can only be a limited number of variations on the argument that there is/isn't/may be a god ... but I'm constantly being surprised by the new discoveries that only deepen the mysteries of life and the cosmos. -GEORGE: I read Velikovsky years ago, and it was evident to me at the time that he was a nut, on the same lines as Danican and his ancient aliens. But of course his stories were colourful and interesting, being based on myths and legends. They just didn't make sense in terms of Newtonian mechanics, for one thing.-Von Däniken apparently fabricated evidence (as well as being convicted of an even less savoury kind of fraud), whereas Velikovsky's catastrophism and predictions ... regardless of whether his explanations are correct or not ... were based on an amalgamation of myth, cosmology and various other scientific disciplines. There are anomalies relating to Venus that have still not been satisfactorily explained ... its clockwise rotation, its comet-like tail ... and of course Velikovsky famously and correctly predicted that Venus would be found to be hot, whereas at the time everyone thought it was cold. He was ridiculed for this, but when it turned out he was right, he was ridiculed because the establishment came up with a different set of reasons for its being hot. Nobody thought of ridiculing the establishment scientists who had insisted Venus was cold. Similarly, his well researched championship of catastrophism against the then prevalent orthodoxy of uniformitarianism hardly justifies the blanket dismissal of him as a nutcase.-GEORGE: Believing something because it makes a good story is just not a sufficient criterion.-I couldn't agree more. Among such good stories I would include the existence of an all-powerful, infinite, uncreated intelligence that has simply been there forever, and the assembly by sheer chance of mechanisms so complex that we still don't even understand how they work. You're right, George, the arguments are much the same ... but we do find different approaches to them!
Velikovsky nut butter
by George Jelliss , Crewe, Tuesday, October 30, 2012, 00:17 (4385 days ago) @ dhw
Here's a bit more about theories of Earth/Moon formation:-http://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tech/sci-tech/2012/10/long-way-alpha-centauri-It seems everything is back in the melting pot. My scepticism was justified!-Yes it was Daniken I meant. It just shows how little I thought of his works. Danican was the original name of the chess player Philidor.-It seems you are still unmoved by the joining-up-the-dots argument about the origin of life. In the early universe there are all the building blocks for life and in the later universe life is made up of those blocks and evolves by natural selection. So there must have been a transition from one to the other. Why invoke supernatural or mystical forces to to explain the occurrence when natural physical forces are sufficient.
--
GPJ
Velikovsky nut butter
by David Turell , Tuesday, October 30, 2012, 04:34 (4385 days ago) @ George Jelliss
edited by unknown, Tuesday, October 30, 2012, 04:44
Here's a bit more about theories of Earth/Moon formation: > > http://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tech/sci-tech/2012/10/long-way-alpha-centauri &... > > > It seems you are still unmoved by the joining-up-the-dots argument about the origin of life. In the early universe there are all the building blocks for life and in the later universe life is made up of those blocks and evolves by natural selection. So there must have been a transition from one to the other. Why invoke supernatural or mystical forces to to explain the occurrence when natural physical forces are sufficient.-If I may step in. Where did the 20 essential amino acids for life come from? Only 8 have been identified in meeteorites, and the original inorganic Earth did not supply them. How about chirality? You have no answer, I'm sure, as no one does. Stating 'natural physical forces are suffient' shows only some sort of faith on your part that naturalism can do it.Your statement is a bald faced wishful conjecture. Further, natural selection can only work after life appears. Your reasoning is Dawkins-oid. He makes the same mistake in his writings. In the past you have shown better reasoning than this exhibit of yours. 60 years of research and we have no idea as to how your 'transition' occurred.-The moon is similar to the Earth in composition; your website is conjecture piled on conjecture. All these theories are interesting, but we all must remain skeptical. We don't have a proven answer about the moon, only interesting theories.
Velikovsky nut butter
by dhw, Tuesday, October 30, 2012, 13:47 (4384 days ago) @ George Jelliss
GEORGE: It seems you are still unmoved by the joining-up-the-dots argument about the origin of life. In the early universe there are all the building blocks for life and in the later universe life is made up of those blocks and evolves by natural selection. So there must have been a transition from one to the other. Why invoke supernatural or mystical forces to to explain the occurrence when natural physical forces are sufficient.-I've responded to this on the Multicellularity thread, as I'd prefer to limit this one to the discussion on Velikovsky.