Living cells communicate (Introduction)
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 03, 2012, 23:27 (4435 days ago)
A new experimental way to study that communication. Life is very complex:-http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=cellular-calls-listening&WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20121003
Living cells communicate
by dhw, Friday, October 05, 2012, 12:27 (4434 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: A new experimental way to study that communication. Life is very complex:-http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=cellular-calls-listening&WT.mc_id=...-Here is a quote from the article that fairly leaps off the page: -"Some signals instruct cells to grow and multiply; others "say" it is time to die. And some signals encourage stem cells—which can mature into a variety of cell types—to differentiate into specific lineages. Understanding cellular signaling is key for biologists hoping to discover how cells respond to one another and their environment."-On 13 December 2011, Page 10 of this forum, I opened a thread on the subject of The Intelligent Cell, and suggested that this might form the basic mechanism of evolution. It ties in perfectly with Lynn Margulis's emphasis on cooperation as a key factor in evolution, and it seems to me that this latest discovery, together with continuing advances in epigenetics, offers one more piece of evidence that there is an intelligent mechanism at work here which may explain not just adaptation but also, and all importantly, innovation. Perhaps it is stem cells that hold the key to the mystery, since they appear to be so versatile.-I don't see this as being contrary to Darwinism. The implication is that cells continually find new ways of combining in order either to survive environmental changes (by adaptation) or to exploit them (by innovation). What will have appeared to Darwin as random mutations were not random, but were a direct response to the environment. And those that worked survived (= Natural Selection). In other words, his description of the process was correct, but ... since he had no way of knowing the genetic mechanisms we are discovering today ... his speculation as to how it worked was wrong. I have never understood why he insisted that his theory depended on gradualism, or indeed why the title of his masterpiece states that species originate "by means of natural selection", but in the light of modern science 150 years later, his basic insight still stands up to scientific scrutiny: namely, that all forms of life evolved from earlier forms through diversification and suitability to existing environments. These new discoveries are on the way to explaining how.-In the context of design versus chance, his own agnostic open-mindedness also stands up to scientific scrutiny. Even he could never have dreamt how complex the mechanisms of heredity etc. would prove to be. The belief that these could somehow be attributed to chance clearly has no more basis in science than the belief that it was all designed by an eternal, universal, unobservable and inexplicable intelligence.
Living cells communicate
by David Turell , Friday, October 05, 2012, 14:38 (4434 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: A new experimental way to study that communication. Life is very complex: > > http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=cellular-calls-listening&WT.mc_id=... > Here is a quote from the article that fairly leaps off the page: > > "Some signals instruct cells to grow and multiply; others "say" it is time to die. And some signals encourage stem cells—which can mature into a variety of cell types—to differentiate into specific lineages. Understanding cellular signaling is key for biologists hoping to discover how cells respond to one another and their environment." > > On 13 December 2011, Page 10 of this forum, I opened a thread on the subject of The Intelligent Cell, and suggested that this might form the basic mechanism of evolution. ......it seems to me that this latest discovery, together with continuing advances in epigenetics, offers one more piece of evidence that there is an intelligent mechanism at work here which may explain not just adaptation but also, and all importantly, innovation. -I bolded that brief phrase so that I could ask the same question I always pose: How did the intelligen mechanism arise? Doesn't intelligence mean a mind was at work?- > I don't see this as being contrary to Darwinism. -I don't blame Darwin. He could only work with the facts he had. But Alfred Russel Wallace had a much clearer intrepretation. He saw the intelligence behind it all in his book and other writings.- > I have never understood why he insisted that his theory depended on gradualism, or indeed why the title of his masterpiece states that species originate "by means of natural selection"-He studied the breeders who achieved slow and gradual change and were the 'natural selectors'.-> but in the light of modern science 150 years later, his basic insight still stands up to scientific scrutiny: namely, that all forms of life evolved from earlier forms through diversification and suitability to existing environments. These new discoveries are on the way to explaining how.-It is very difficult to deny evolution occurred. > In the context of design versus chance, his own agnostic open-mindedness also stands up to scientific scrutiny. Even he could never have dreamt how complex the mechanisms of heredity etc. would prove to be. The belief that these could somehow be attributed to chance clearly has no more basis in science than the belief that it was all designed by an eternal, universal, unobservable and inexplicable intelligence.-Since you don't accept either choice, is there a third modality? Ah, I know, that painful picket fence! Because there is no other choice.
Living cells communicate
by dhw, Saturday, October 06, 2012, 13:29 (4433 days ago) @ David Turell
I am campaigning again for the idea that the intelligent cell is the mechanism that drives evolution, through adaptation and innovation in response to changes in the environment.-DAVID: under "Duck billed dinosaur teeth": They had the best grazing teeth ever evolved. The plants at the time must have been ultra tough to produce what I presume to be epigenetic changes for adaptation. Current grazing teeth are not as complex. Evolution going backwards? No, just built-in adaptation by the evolutionary process. It is obvious evolutionary life can do anything it has to at any stage of evolution. -http://phys.org/news/2012-10-fossilized-teethduck-bill-dinosaurs-plant-pulverizing-teet...-Either has to (adaptation) or decides to (innovation). Either way, it all comes down to responses at the cellular level.-DAVID: How did the intelligent mechanism arise? Doesn't intelligence mean a mind was at work?-This is the great theistic cop-out. The answer to your question may well be yes, but you refuse to ask the same question when it comes to the intelligence which you believe created earthly intelligence. Here your answer is always "First Cause", which explains absolutely nothing. If an eternal, universal intelligence can simply be there (first cause), and all things follow on from it, then an eternal, ever-changing, unconscious universe can simply be there (first cause), and all things follow on from that, including the chance combination ... out of an infinity of chance combinations ... that gave rise to intelligent life. I can only repeat that I understand the reasoning behind both scenarios, but why should I believe that a superintelligence can just be there, whereas a lesser intelligence has to be deliberately designed? Dhw: I have never understood why he [Darwin] insisted that his theory depended on gradualism, or indeed why the title of his masterpiece states that species originate "by means of natural selection"-DAVID: He studied the breeders who achieved slow and gradual change and were the 'natural selectors'.-His theory is based on studies covering a vast range of plant and animal life, not just deliberate breeding by humans, but I'll come back to gradualism another time. Dhw: ...in the light of modern science 150 years later, his basic insight still stands up to scientific scrutiny: namely, that all forms of life evolved from earlier forms through diversification and suitability to existing environments. These new discoveries are on the way to explaining how.-DAVID: It is very difficult to deny evolution occurred.-In that case, one should beware of sensational headings like "NEO-DARWINISM JUST DIED"! Dhw: In the context of design versus chance, his [Darwin's] own agnostic open-mindedness also stands up to scientific scrutiny. Even he could never have dreamt how complex the mechanisms of heredity etc. would prove to be. The belief that these could somehow be attributed to chance clearly has no more basis in science than the belief that it was all designed by an eternal, universal, unobservable and inexplicable intelligence.-DAVID: Since you don't accept either choice, is there a third modality? Ah, I know, that painful picket fence! Because there is no other choice.-Precisely. But the picket fence is not painful. It's well padded and allows one a clear view of two equally spectacular but equally hedged-in fields!
Living cells communicate
by David Turell , Saturday, October 06, 2012, 17:49 (4433 days ago) @ dhw
I am campaigning again for the idea that the intelligent cell is the mechanism that drives evolution, through adaptation and innovation in response to changes in the environment.-I agree, except I maintain that intelligence cells come from an initial intelligence. > > DAVID: How did the intelligent mechanism arise? Doesn't intelligence mean a mind was at work? > > This is the great theistic cop-out. The answer to your question may well be yes, but you refuse to ask the same question when it comes to the intelligence which you believe created earthly intelligence. Here your answer is always "First Cause", which explains absolutely nothing. If an eternal, universal intelligence can simply be there (first cause), and all things follow on from it, then an eternal, ever-changing, unconscious universe can simply be there (first cause), and all things follow on from that, including the chance combination ... out of an infinity of chance combinations ... that gave rise to intelligent life.-You must assume that Big Bang did not occur to have an eternal universe. Recent math papers I have quoted here indicate that there is no 'before' before the Big Bang and this applies to multiverses also. (Alexander Vilenkin):-http://www.newgeology.us/Alexander%20Vilenkin.pdf - We must admit that nothing can come from nothing, in a strict philosophic sense. Therefore, something is eternal, and that must be energy, because the universe is entirely composed of energy. What your proposal is left with is two-fold: unorganized energy by chance created what we see today or the energy had organization from the beginning and that energy had a direction toward complexity and created what we see today. The odds favor the latter.- > > Dhw: ...in the light of modern science 150 years later, his basic insight still stands up to scientific scrutiny: namely, that all forms of life evolved from earlier forms through diversification and suitability to existing environments. These new discoveries are on the way to explaining how. > > DAVID: It is very difficult to deny evolution occurred. > > In that case, one should beware of sensational headings like "NEO-DARWINISM JUST DIED"!-I was describing the death of a bastard theory, not evolution itself. And Alfred Rusel Wallace did much more of the observing and reached the more logical conclusion. > > Dhw: The belief that these could somehow be attributed to chance clearly has no more basis in science than the belief that it was all designed by an eternal, universal, unobservable and inexplicable intelligence. -See above. It all still is involved in faith in either of the two proposals I gave above.
Living cells communicate
by dhw, Sunday, October 07, 2012, 20:13 (4431 days ago) @ David Turell
Dhw: If an eternal, universal intelligence can simply be there (first cause), and all things follow on from it, then an eternal, ever-changing, unconscious universe can simply be there (first cause), and all things follow on from that, including the chance combination ... out of an infinity of chance combinations ... that gave rise to intelligent life.-DAVID: You must assume that Big Bang did not occur to have an eternal universe. Recent math papers I have quoted here indicate that there is no 'before' before the Big Bang and this applies to multiverses also. (Alexander Vilenkin):-http://www.newgeology.us/Alexander%20Vilenkin.pdf -Thank you for this. My post was badly worded. I am not going to argue against the Big Bang theory ... as a non-scientist I have to (provisionally) accept the general consensus on this ... but I have absolutely no trust whatsoever in the theory that there was no before. How can anyone possibly have even a clue? And you don't believe it either, since again we agree that nothing can come from nothing. I should have written eternal, ever-changing, unconscious energy ... "energy" being the term which you and I have long since agreed on, leaving a choice which you have summarized admirably in your post, as followsAVID: What your proposal is left with is two-fold: unorganized energy by chance created what we see today or the energy had organization from the beginning and that energy had a direction toward complexity and created what we see today. The odds favor the latter.-Vilenkin may think so, and you may think so. But who can calculate the odds for something so remote? We have agreed that energy is the eternal "first cause" (whether conscious or unconscious), and we need to grasp the implications of "eternal". "Organization from the beginning" is wrong, since eternity has no beginning. And we can have absolutely no idea how that energy has behaved throughout eternity. Therefore the argument concerning infinite and eternal combinations still stands, not even limited to events since the Big Bang, but extending for ever and ever. Atheists will say that we just happen to be the lucky ones. As you so rightly conclude: "It all still is involved in faith in either of the two proposals I gave above." And science ends where faith begins, for theist as for atheist.
Living cells communicate
by David Turell , Monday, October 08, 2012, 01:11 (4431 days ago) @ dhw
but I have absolutely no trust whatsoever in the theory that there was no before. How can anyone possibly have even a clue? And you don't believe it either, since again we agree that nothing can come from nothing. I should have written eternal, ever-changing, unconscious energy ... "energy" being the term which you and I have long since agreed on,-Yes, agreed. Energy has always existed eternally. However, time for us began at the Big Bang. Therefore there is no 'before' before the Big Bang, since a 'before' is a time phenomenon. -> We have agreed that energy is the eternal "first cause" (whether conscious or unconscious), Therefore the argument concerning infinite and eternal combinations still stands, not even limited to events since the Big Bang, but extending for ever and ever. -As Alan Guth (the discoverer of inflation theory) points out: the theory of the Big Bang does not tell us anything about what banged, why it banged, or what might have caused it to bang from whateever energy was available at the time. But he agrees with Vilenkin, no 'before' before the Big Bang. They call it 'past incomplete'. Two papers ten years apart, on Stephen Hawkings 60th and 70th birthdays! Disagreeing with some if his favorite thoughts! Since he tends to be an enternal multiverse guy.
Living cells communicate
by dhw, Monday, October 08, 2012, 16:21 (4431 days ago) @ David Turell
Dhw: We have agreed that energy is the eternal "first cause" (whether conscious or unconscious), Therefore the argument concerning infinite and eternal combinations still stands, not even limited to events since the Big Bang, but extending for ever and ever. -DAVID: Energy has always existed eternally. However, time for us began at the Big Bang. Therefore there is no 'before' before the Big Bang, since a 'before' is a time phenomenon. -DAVID: As Alan Guth (the discoverer of inflation theory) points out: the theory of the Big Bang does not tell us anything about what banged, why it banged, or what might have caused it to bang from whatever energy was available at the time. But he agrees with Vilenkin, no 'before' before the Big Bang. They call it 'past incomplete'. Two papers ten years apart, on Stephen Hawkings 60th and 70th birthdays! Disagreeing with some if his favorite thoughts! Since he tends to be an eternal multiverse guy.-If you believe in eternal energy, and you believe in the Big Bang, and you believe that the Big Bang banged "from whatever energy was available at the time", how can you argue that there was no 'before'? This is simply playing word games. "Time for us began at the Big Bang" is just another way of saying that OUR universe and OUR concept of time began at the Big Bang. But that does not mean that our concept of 'before' is wrong. Nor our concept of sequent cause and effect (before and after) ... inescapable if you think that intelligent energy (your first cause) created our universe. What makes you think anyway that Guth and Vilenkin are right and Hawking is wrong? Is it perhaps because you dislike the idea of eternal and infinite combinations, as that increases the odds in favour of chance? I see no way round this if you argue that "energy has always existed eternally". Eternal energy means infinite potential, past as well as future. But never fear, I'm not trying to pull you up onto my fence. I'm explaining why you can't pull me down!
Living cells communicate
by David Turell , Monday, October 08, 2012, 18:02 (4431 days ago) @ dhw
> If you believe in eternal energy, and you believe in the Big Bang, and you believe that the Big Bang banged "from whatever energy was available at the time", how can you argue that there was no 'before'? This is simply playing word games. "Time for us began at the Big Bang" is just another way of saying that OUR universe and OUR concept of time began at the Big Bang. But that does not mean that our concept of 'before' is wrong.-What it means is that there is a discontinuity. We cannot study 'before' because it doesn't exist in our time frame since the Big Bang. We really agree. But remember, we don't know why it banged. Did it have to bang, or was it caused to bang? Was it guided to have 20 major and 100 minor parameters to allow life? Was there only one way for the bang to proceed? The multiverse scientists say it went in 10^500 directions! A totally non-provable theory. -> Nor our concept of sequent cause and effect (before and after) ... inescapable if you think that intelligent energy (your first cause) created our universe. What makes you think anyway that Guth and Vilenkin are right and Hawking is wrong? Is it perhaps because you dislike the idea of eternal and infinite combinations, as that increases the odds in favour of chance? I see no way round this if you argue that "energy has always existed eternally". Eternal energy means infinite potential, past as well as future. -"Eternal energy means infinite potential" your phrase cannot be taken seriously. Raw energy such as lightning has great potential and will strike something but is not organized in a way to do anything else. When I discuss organized energy I'm thinking of intelligence, so the raw eternal energy you propose must become organized in some way to then created potentials of complexity. I don't see how a raw blob of energy could conjure up intelligence. So I'm back to 'first cause'. There has to have been an eternal universal intelligence to start with. To go from raw energy to human consciousness is a stochastic impossibility, despite Matt's objections to having to know everything before one can make that statement.-It takes alot of faith to tolerate the picket fence. The faith that both sides can be correct.
Living cells communicate
by dhw, Tuesday, October 09, 2012, 16:52 (4430 days ago) @ David Turell
Dhw: If you believe in eternal energy, and you believe in the Big Bang, and you believe that the Big Bang banged "from whatever energy was available at the time", how can you argue that there was no 'before'? -DAVID: What it means is that there is a discontinuity. We cannot study 'before' because it doesn't exist in our time frame since the Big Bang. We really agree.-Yes, we do. The fact that we cannot study 'before' does not mean that 'before' didn't exist (exeunt Guth and Vilenkin from our discussion, if you have interpreted them correctly). It only means that we have absolutely no idea what preceded the Big Bang, and we can only speculate. I see no grounds for holding one speculation to be more likely than another.-Dhw: Eternal energy means infinite potential, past as well as future. -DAVID: "Eternal energy means infinite potential" your phrase cannot be taken seriously. Raw energy such as lightning has great potential and will strike something but is not organized in a way to do anything else. When I discuss organized energy I'm thinking of intelligence, so the raw eternal energy you propose must become organized in some way to then create potentials of complexity. -You believe that eternal energy is conscious. Atheists will argue that whatever energy created the universe is unconscious. Why call it raw, and why illustrate it with lightning? Why not call it dark, or unknown, and leave it at that? Even your UI is an unknown form of energy. In both cases, energy is the 'first cause' and it created the matter of which our universe is composed. Since we have no idea what preceded the creation of our universe, we have no idea how often in the eternal past this unknown form of energy (conscious for you, unconscious for the atheist) has turned itself into different forms of matter, different universes. The potential is infinite if, as you have said, it is eternal. I would, however, find it difficult to believe that your eternal, conscious energy sat around doing nothing throughout its eternal past until it suddenly hit on the idea of big-banging us into existence. Our own universe is proof that first cause energy can transmute itself or be transmuted into a universe. If one, why not an infinity of universes? And hence an infinity of combinations. All pure, unprovable, speculative theory, of course ... just like the theory of an eternal, intelligent, unknown form of energy. But if you can take one seriously, I think you should take them both seriously. -DAVID: I don't see how a raw blob of energy could conjure up intelligence. So I'm back to 'first cause'. There has to have been an eternal universal intelligence to start with. And that is where science turns into philosophy and faith. You don't see how unintelligent energy could conjure up intelligence (ours), and yet you think energy can simply "be" intelligent without any conjuring up. Superintelligence just "is", whereas a lesser intelligence has to be created. I don't think there is any disagreement between us on this ... you have acknowledged many times that this is a matter of faith, as is faith in unintelligent energy. DAVID: To go from raw energy to human consciousness is a stochastic impossibility, despite Matt's objections to having to know everything before one can make that statement.-The alternatives are, for me, equally impossible to believe, though one must be correct: chance creating the mechanisms that led to human consciousness versus eternal consciousness with no mechanisms at all. DAVID: It takes a lot of faith to tolerate the picket fence. The faith that both sides can be correct.-You would need to define faith. In my book, it requires belief. My form of agnosticism acknowledges that one side must be correct, but since I find both sides equally impossible to believe, I have no faith in either. A suspended judgement is not what I would call faith.
Living cells communicate
by David Turell , Tuesday, October 09, 2012, 17:50 (4430 days ago) @ dhw
> You would need to define faith. In my book, it requires belief. My form of agnosticism acknowledges that one side must be correct, but since I find both sides equally impossible to believe, I have no faith in either. A suspended judgement is not what I would call faith.-Now I understand your position. Your buttocks are not impaled on a picket fence, but are delightfully suspended over the boundry between chance and faith. And you defend yourself by somehow maintaining that altitude. Bravo!
How living cells communicate
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 10, 2012, 23:10 (4428 days ago) @ David Turell
Nobel prize stuff. How to really communicate with cells by G-protein:-"Nearly every function of the human body, from sight and smell to heart rate and neuronal communication, depends on G-protein-coupled receptors (GPCRs). Lodged in the fatty membranes that surround cells, they detect hormones, odours, chemical neurotransmitters and other signals outside the cell, and then convey their messages to the interior by activating one of several types of G protein. The G protein, in turn, triggers a plethora of other events. The receptors make up one of the largest families of human proteins and are the targets of one-third to one-half of drugs. Working out their atomic structure will help researchers to understand how this central cellular-communication system works, and could help drug-makers to design more effective treatments."-http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110803/full/476387a.html?WT.ec_id=NATURENEWSBREAKING-As I predicted long ago, the complexity of life is just beginning to be unraveled. The understanding of the complexity is in its infancy. And its all by chance mechanisms. Of course!
Living cells communicate
by dhw, Tuesday, October 09, 2012, 14:36 (4430 days ago) @ dhw
David and I have been discussing the hypothesis that the intelligent cell is the mechanism that drives evolution. I'd now like to apply this hypothesis to the gaps in Darwin's theory. (All Darwin quotations and references from Chapter VI of Origin ... "Difficulties on Theory".)-If we accept that evolution happened, i.e. that all current forms of life are descended from earlier forms ... as opposed to a god creating all the different species separately in the last 6000 or so years ... we need to explain how the simple was able to develop into the complex (regardless of whether a god created the initial mechanism). Darwin surmised that random mutations ... but not natural selection ... were responsible for innovations: "natural selection can do nothing until favourable variations chance to occur". Whatever organs resulted from these were able to improve themselves over long periods of time by adaptation to different environments, by modifications, or even by changes of function (for instance, the swim bladder in fish may have become the lung in land animals). He regarded the long periods and the smallness of changes as essential to his theory: "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." Of course it can't be "demonstrated", but time and again he was confronted by the fact that "by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed". His explanation for their not being found was mainly the "imperfection of the geological record". It should be noted that all of this remains gospel to many scientists even today.-A mutation, whether random or not, needs to function if it is to survive. And so already we are confronted with something sudden, not gradual. In the context of the eye, Darwin argues that over a long period, numerous gradations could lead from "one very imperfect and simple eye" to "a perfect and complex eye", "but how a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us..." It should! A nerve sensitive to anything is of astonishing complexity, as is the simplest of simple eyes, and it needs to be incorporated into the theory. In any case, what is "perfection"? Darwin cites the eagle as his "perfect" example, and sees no difficulty in believing that this has come about because natural selection has "converted the simple apparatus of an optic nerve coated with pigment and invested by transparent membrane" into this perfection. How does the simple eye of one species end up as the perfect eye of another species? (I'm not saying it doesn't ... I'm asking how.) Natural selection does not convert anything. It merely selects from what exists. Why should a functioning organ like a simple eye, having survived because it is advantageous, bother to make itself more complex, let alone transfer itself from one species to another? If it comes to that, why should simple organisms that have survived to this day have also branched out to create more complex organisms? Clearly they didn't have to. And yet they did.-All of these gaps in the theory can be filled (and in my view the theory does not break down at all) if we accept the hypothesis of the intelligent cell. We know for a fact that cells combine, that they allocate themselves different functions, that even within our intelligent selves they act independently of our will and consciousness. We have been told that they have their own means of communication. Why, then, should we not suppose that in accordance with the conditions imposed by any particular environment, cells at various given moments have joined together on their own initiative to create the organs and organisms we are familiar with today? Each new combination would have been instant, but each new combination could engender the idea for a different combination, or an improvement in existing combinations (= different types of eye), or variations within a species (different hominids), in the process that Simon Conway Morris describes as "convergence". The fossil record shows no transitional forms because there were none. Favourable mutations are not due to chance but to deliberate adaptation or experimentation by the cell communities. The Cambrian Explosion ... an insoluble problem for Darwin ... can be explained by a major change in the environment (perhaps connected with an increase in oxygen) engendering a vast range of adaptations and innovations by these intelligent cells. Bacteria are still going strong, but a new combination does not necessitate the extinction of old combinations. Whatever works, survives. Theists can detect a divine plan if they wish, atheists can reduce their reliance on chance, and both sides can embrace the same hypothesis as to how the process works. Their beliefs will simply revolve around the one area of evolution that Darwin did not tackle in Origin which, ironically, is the origin of the intelligent cell that enabled evolution to take place.-What are the gaps and/or flaws in this hypothesis?
Living cells communicate
by David Turell , Tuesday, October 09, 2012, 15:14 (4430 days ago) @ dhw
> All of these gaps in the theory can be filled (and in my view the theory does not break down at all) if we accept the hypothesis of the intelligent cell..... Whatever works, survives. Theists can detect a divine plan if they wish, atheists can reduce their reliance on chance, and both sides can embrace the same hypothesis as to how the process works. Their beliefs will simply revolve around the one area of evolution that Darwin did not tackle in Origin which, ironically, is the origin of the intelligent cell that enabled evolution to take place. > > What are the gaps and/or flaws in this hypothesis?-Yes, the cells are acting with a form of intelligence that comes from underlying information. A slight modification in theory gets us to Alfred Russel Wallace who got the whole concept correct. At the level of the basis of reality we find information and analysis by information theory confirms the quantity of that information. Finding underlying information pervades the physical sciences of cosmology and particle physics. Finding underlying information pervades the biological sciences in a like manner. The intelligent cell is filled with information. Matter is not information. Information is non-material, but can interact with the material and guide it. Like Wallace, accept where the information came from and your problem, is solved.
Living cells communicate
by dhw, Tuesday, October 16, 2012, 14:46 (4423 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID (under "Epigenetics: a negative review":)- http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443294904578048381149899900.html?KEYWORDS...The truth appears to be slightly more positive than Ridley's opinion.-As Dr. Davey Smith puts it: 'The conclusion from over 100 years of research must be that epigenetic inheritance is not a major contributor' to physical resemblance across generations."-Thank you for summarizing this article. As always, I'm feeling my way into the science and need guidance. Ridley and Dr Smith seem to be arguing that epigenetic changes are not lasting. If we follow the hypothesis that the driving force behind innovation ... without which there would be no evolution ... is the intelligent cell, which either adapts to or exploits changes in the environment, the crucial point of epigenetics would be the exact opposite of this conclusion: namely, that new combinations must be heritable and lasting. However, there are so many different, interacting mechanisms at work within the cell itself, I wonder how precise scientists can be at present in identifying and separating genetic and epigenetic factors.-Innovation, unlike adaptation, means new functions, new organs, new forms of life. (I hesitate to use "species" since one form can be split into so many "species".) Overkalix and the other case studies were not concerned with new forms at all. Humans remained human and rats remained rats (of which there are 64 known species, according to Wikipedia). Innovation leading to totally new forms would arise from major and permanent changes in the environment, and such upheavals have become increasingly less common as the Earth has aged and stabilized. Perhaps the Bird of Paradise clip offers a clue here, in that there are certain creatures that are unique to one particular environment. Madagascar is another good example. In short, I don't see the relevance of Dr Davey Smith's findings to a process we cannot reproduce: namely, that of new forms of life emerging from new and/or unique environments through the ingenuity of perhaps just one set of cells in one original creature (a non-random mutation). Once the new combination is found to work, it establishes itself as per Darwin's theory. I know, David, that you see humans as the culmination of the evolutionary process, and maybe they are. This would suggest that the intelligent cell has now exhausted its innovative repertoire ... whether that is God's plan or not. Alternatively, there may come a time when there are further dramatic environmental upheavals which produce further dramatic innovations. How can we ever know the full potential of the cell or of the mechanisms that govern its behaviour?
Living cells communicate
by David Turell , Tuesday, October 16, 2012, 18:29 (4423 days ago) @ dhw
I know, David, that you see humans as the culmination of the evolutionary process, and maybe they are. This would suggest that the intelligent cell has now exhausted its innovative repertoire ... whether that is God's plan or not. Alternatively, there may come a time when there are further dramatic environmental upheavals which produce further dramatic innovations. How can we ever know the full potential of the cell or of the mechanisms that govern its behaviour?-I don't know how the human body can be really improved further. We don't need more dexterous hands, or stronger muscles. Our brain IQ is improving as civilization develops further. Grow fur during the next ice age? -Evolution is really very punctuated judging from the fossil record. What can we humans jump to? So I still conclude we are the end point.
Living cells communicate
by dhw, Wednesday, October 17, 2012, 18:04 (4422 days ago) @ David Turell
Dhw: I know, David, that you see humans as the culmination of the evolutionary process, and maybe they are. This would suggest that the intelligent cell has now exhausted its innovative repertoire ... whether that is God's plan or not. Alternatively, there may come a time when there are further dramatic environmental upheavals which produce further dramatic innovations. How can we ever know the full potential of the cell or of the mechanisms that govern its behaviour?-DAVID: I don't know how the human body can be really improved further. We don't need more dexterous hands, or stronger muscles. Our brain IQ is improving as civilization develops further. Grow fur during the next ice age? Evolution is really very punctuated judging from the fossil record. What can we humans jump to? So I still conclude we are the end point.-The first part of my post was concerned with the process of innovation ... in particular, the possibility that innovations (as well as adaptations) arise through the intelligent cell's ability to exploit new environmental conditions. Obviously this requires permanent heritability, and in view of some scepticism concerning epigenetics, it raises the question of how precise scientists can be in separating genetic and epigenetic factors. May I take it that you have no scientific objections to these speculations? This is an important question for me.-As regards dramatic innovations in the future, science fiction writers are better able to imagine these! The fictional beings that inhabit other planets are usually depicted as very different from us, and this would make perfect sense as it's unlikely that conditions on Planet X would be the same as those on Planet Earth. But of course there is no reason to suppose that a blind evolution (as opposed to your planned version) would necessarily be progressive. A massive upheaval on Earth ... say a collision that totally changed Earth's atmosphere ... could wipe out the human race, and/or new forms of life could emerge that are derived from non-human species. My point is that we have no idea what potential lies in the intelligent cell, and what it produces will depend on the environment, which itself may be subject to a vast range of variations beyond those that have already occurred in Earth's history.
Living cells communicate
by David Turell , Wednesday, October 17, 2012, 18:39 (4421 days ago) @ dhw
> The first part of my post was concerned with the process of innovation ... in particular, the possibility that innovations (as well as adaptations) arise through the intelligent cell's ability to exploit new environmental conditions.-Gould's theories as expressed in his final book included the observation that brisk environmental changes did not always result in organismal changes.-http://sandwalk.blogspot.ca/2012/08/the-paradox-of-stasis.html-http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2012/10/more-evidence-of-short-term-stasis.html#more -> Obviously this requires permanent heritability, and in view of some scepticism concerning epigenetics, it raises the question of how precise scientists can be in separating genetic and epigenetic factors. May I take it that you have no scientific objections to these speculations? This is an important question for me.-The book is out on epigenetics, but there is no question that studies have shown permanent changes. Reznick's guppies come to mind. They changed as long as they were in a different stream.-> My point is that we have no idea what potential lies in the intelligent cell, and what it produces will depend on the environment, which itself may be subject to a vast range of variations beyond those that have already occurred in Earth's history. -Of course, I have to agree. The adaptability of life is shown in the extremophiles living in the most inhospitable places on the planet.
Living cells communicate: electrons
by David Turell , Wednesday, May 01, 2013, 20:31 (4225 days ago) @ David Turell
How cells communicate with electrons:-"Another important phenomenon observed in multicellular organisms is intercellular communication. Many activities carried out within biofilms may be mediated by a form of cell-to-cell communication called quorum sensing. In quorum sensing, cells continually determine the density of their own population—"self" cells—by sensing the diffusion of chemical signaling molecules released by all "self" cells in the community. A variety of processes can only be performed in the presence of the requisite number of "self" cells, including bacterial light production, toxin secretion by pathogens, and the formation of biofilms.-Within the span of a few years, observations of microbial electron transport jumped from nanometer- to centimeter-length scales. Cell-to-cell electron transfer could additionally serve a similar function to quorum sensing: allowing cells to communicate with each other. For example, in both Shewanella biofilms and the Desulfobulbaceae cable system, the flow of electrons occurs in one direction: toward the terminal electron acceptor. This directionality allows cells downstream in the redox gradient to be directly "informed" of the oxidation activity of their respiration partners upstream in the donor-rich regions. In this way, each cell along the electron transport pipeline can tune its local gene expression in response to events occurring far away. Cells are communicating their metabolic state across the network."-http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/35299/title/Live-Wires/
Living cells communicate: electrons
by David Turell , Tuesday, January 07, 2014, 15:03 (3975 days ago) @ David Turell
Cells also communicate by extending tubules much like nerves with synapses:-"It's long been known that neurons communicate in a similar way -- by transferring signals at points of contact called synapses, and transmitting the response over long distances in long tubes called axons," said Kornberg. "However, it's always been thought that this mode of signaling was unique to neurons. We have now shown that many types of animal cells have the same ability to reach out and synapse with one another in order to communicate, using signaling proteins as units of information instead of the neurotransmitters and electrical impulses that neurons use."-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140102142014.htm-As always, I wonder how this could develop through evolution. Cells certainly need this type of communication. Perhaps they followed instructions in the information they contained in their genomes.