James Barham vs natural selection (Introduction)
by David Turell , Friday, June 15, 2012, 15:05 (4545 days ago)
edited by unknown, Friday, June 15, 2012, 15:33
An atheist philosopher of science believes there is intelligence behind evolution and gives an excellent summary:-http://www.thebestschools.org/bestschoolsblog/2012/06/12/darwin-v-life-emergence/-This is a must read-Here is an example. No natural selection and still around after 400 million years, a living fossil:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120614094115.htm
James Barham vs Darwin
by David Turell , Friday, July 20, 2012, 19:39 (4510 days ago) @ David Turell
An atheist philosopher of science believes there is intelligence behind evolution and gives an excellent summary: > > http://www.thebestschools.org/bestschoolsblog/2012/06/12/darwin-v-life-emergence/&#... > This is a must read- As Barham ( an atheist) describes how a cell works, Darwin is thrown out. I cannot look at the current research on cell functions and believe Darwinism is the proper theory for evolution:- http://www.thebestschools.org/bestschoolsblog/2012/07/20/darwin-vii-physical-properties...
James Barham vs Darwin
by dhw, Saturday, July 21, 2012, 12:00 (4509 days ago) @ David Turell
DAVID: An atheist philosopher of science believes there is intelligence behind evolution and gives an excellent summary:-http://www.thebestschools.org/bestschoolsblog/2012/06/12/darwin-v-life-emergence/-As Barham ( an atheist) describes how a cell works, Darwin is thrown out. I cannot look at the current research on cell functions and believe Darwinism is the proper theory for evolution:-http://www.thebestschools.org/bestschoolsblog/2012/07/20/darwin-vii-physical-properties...-I must confess that I find this attack on Darwin extremely confusing. Barham sets up targets (e.g. no deep difference between living and nonliving matter; DNA is more important than the other main chemical components of the cell) and later the machine metaphor. Darwin didn't even know about DNA, so how could he have given it precedence? Since when did Darwin's theory of evolution depend on there being no "deep difference between living and nonliving matter" or on the machine metaphor? However, there is a machine metaphor in Origin, and I'd like to quote it in its context:-"...when we contemplate every structure and instinct as the summing up of many contrivances, each useful to the possessor, nearly in the same way as when we look at any great mechanical invention as the summing up of the labour, the experience, the reason, and even the blunders of numerous workmen; when we thus view each organic being, how far more interesting ... I speak from experience ... will the study of natural history become! "A grand and almost untrodden field of inquiry will be opened, on the causes and laws of variation, on correlation of growth, on the effects of use and disuse, on the direct action of external conditions, and so forth." (p. 503: Recapitulation and Conclusion).-Where Darwin comes under fire is not the process of evolution (which, David, you have repeatedly said you accept) but the mechanisms by which it takes place. Random mutations and gradualism are the main problems, and the more we learn about the workings of the "intelligent" cell (which I would compare to Darwin's "workmen"), the more it would seem that these lie at the heart of the process. We now know a great deal more about the then "untrodden fields" like the causes and laws of variation, while epigenetics suggests that the direct action of external conditions may be far more significant than previously thought. This does not mean throwing Darwin out. Common descent and natural selection still stand as the cornerstones of his theory. Later in the same paragraph, David, you may be interested to read this: "Our classifications will come to be, as far as they can be so made, genealogies; and will then truly give what may be called the plan of creation." This is not a random choice of words. Two pages later, in arguing against separate creation, he talks of "the laws impressed on matter by the Creator". You never hear such quotes from atheist Darwinians or theist anti-Darwinians, but don't blame Darwin.
James Barham vs Darwin
by David Turell , Saturday, July 21, 2012, 18:10 (4509 days ago) @ dhw
> I must confess that I find this attack on Darwin extremely confusing. -you will need to read all seven Barham articles to follow him.-> > Where Darwin comes under fire is not the process of evolution (which, David, you have repeatedly said you accept) but the mechanisms by which it takes place. Random mutations and gradualism are the main problems, and the more we learn about the workings of the "intelligent" cell (which I would compare to Darwin's "workmen"), the more it would seem that these lie at the heart of the process. We now know a great deal more about the then "untrodden fields" like the causes and laws of variation, while epigenetics suggests that the direct action of external conditions may be far more significant than previously thought. This does not mean throwing Darwin out. Common descent and natural selection still stand as the cornerstones of his theory. -But that is exactly the point. Natural selection has a small passive role, and the common descent is much more a bush than a tree, with no evidence of macro-speciation by Darwin's gradualist method. The cornerstones are crumbling, which is not Darwin's fault. His was a fabulous guess as to the underlying process, but he appears to be wrong, as science marches on.
James Barham vs Darwin
by David Turell , Saturday, July 21, 2012, 23:31 (4509 days ago) @ David Turell
> > I must confess that I find this attack on Darwin extremely confusing. > > you will need to read all seven Barham articles to follow him. > > > > > Where Darwin comes under fire is not the process of evolution (which, David, you have repeatedly said you accept) but the mechanisms by which it takes place. Random mutations and gradualism are the main problems, and the more we learn about the workings of the "intelligent" cell (which I would compare to Darwin's "workmen"), the more it would seem that these lie at the heart of the process. We now know a great deal more about the then "untrodden fields" like the causes and laws of variation, while epigenetics suggests that the direct action of external conditions may be far more significant than previously thought. This does not mean throwing Darwin out. Common descent and natural selection still stand as the cornerstones of his theory. > > But that is exactly the point. Natural selection has a small passive role, and the common descent is much more a bush than a tree, with no evidence of macro-speciation by Darwin's gradualist method. The cornerstones are crumbling, which is not Darwin's fault. His was a fabulous guess as to the underlying process, but he appears to be wrong, as science marches on.-Try this explanation to understand Barham:-http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2002/dec/11/highereducation.uk
James Barham vs Darwin
by dhw, Sunday, July 22, 2012, 18:54 (4508 days ago) @ David Turell
dhw: Where Darwin comes under fire is not the process of evolution (which, David, you have repeatedly said you accept) but the mechanisms by which it takes place. Random mutations and gradualism are the main problems, and the more we learn about the workings of the "intelligent" cell (which I would compare to Darwin's "workmen"), the more it would seem that these lie at the heart of the process. [...] This does not mean throwing Darwin out. Common descent and natural selection still stand as the cornerstones of his theory. -DAVID: But that is exactly the point. Natural selection has a small passive role, and the common descent is much more a bush than a tree, with no evidence of macro-speciation by Darwin's gradualist method. The cornerstones are crumbling, which is not Darwin's fault. His was a fabulous guess as to the underlying process, but he appears to be wrong, as science marches on.-DAVID: Try this explanation to understand Barham:-http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2002/dec/11/highereducation.uk-The article you have referred me to deals with the origin of life. DARWIN: "How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated." (Difficulties on Theory, p. 211).The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life, but see above concerning the cell. As regards NS, DARWIN: "...natural selection can do nothing until favourable variations chance to occur" (p. 202). "Chance to occur" seems to both of us a problem, but as you can see from this one quote, he does not claim that natural selection creates anything. The title of his masterpiece is certainly misleading, but the text is not. His point, as you well know, was that God did not make caterpillars green so they would be invisible on green leaves, but green caterpillars survived better than those of other colours, and so now we have green caterpillars. (Somewhat simplified version!) Passive, yes, but an extremely important insight into how the process works. I don't think there is any basic disagreement between us here. You prefer to focus on what I call the mechanisms that drive evolution (random mutations versus some form of intelligent guidance), while I focus on what I call the process of evolution (each form descended from a predecessor and surviving or disappearing by means of NS ... two cornerstones, neither of which is "crumbling"). We agree on punctuated equilibrium, but despite Darwin's insistence on gradualism, p.e. does NOT invalidate common descent. So we both think Darwin was partly right and partly wrong, but you want to throw him out, and I only want to modify him. I also want to hammer home the point that theists and atheists alike constantly misrepresent Darwin (an agnostic), who repeatedly pointed out that evolution was not incompatible with theism.
James Barham vs Darwin
by David Turell , Sunday, July 22, 2012, 19:20 (4508 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: Where Darwin comes under fire is not the process of evolution (which, David, you have repeatedly said you accept) but the mechanisms by which it takes place. Random mutations and gradualism are the main problems, and the more we learn about the workings of the "intelligent" cell (which I would compare to Darwin's "workmen"), the more it would seem that these lie at the heart of the process. [...] This does not mean throwing Darwin out. Common descent and natural selection still stand as the cornerstones of his theory. > > DAVID: But that is exactly the point. Natural selection has a small passive role, and the common descent is much more a bush than a tree, with no evidence of macro-speciation by Darwin's gradualist method. The cornerstones are crumbling, which is not Darwin's fault. His was a fabulous guess as to the underlying process, but he appears to be wrong, as science marches on. > > DAVID: Try this explanation to understand Barham: > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2002/dec/11/highereducation.uk-In one of my previous replies to you I suggested you need to review all seven of Barham's essays as well as the site above. You need to take the whole meal to understand what to digest. Barham makes the point that the whole evolutionary setup, the genome descoveries of recent dates, all point to teleology, not one of Darwin's strong points. I know Darwin was agnostic coming from a theistic childhood.