Plasma Cosmology and the Myth of it not Being Considered (Introduction)
by xeno6696 
, Sonoran Desert, Wednesday, June 13, 2012, 13:25 (4524 days ago)
From the wiki:-" Light element production without Big Bang nucleosynthesis (as required in e.g. Alfvén-Klein cosmology) has been discussed in the mainstream literature and was determined to produce excessive x-rays and gamma rays beyond that observed.[44][45] This issue has not been completely addressed by plasma cosmology proponents in their proposals."-Meaning: Scientists DO take it seriously, but it has problems it needs to solve. It's lack of mainstream acceptance has more to do with the fact it has holes, than for some Illuminati-like dissension-squashing.
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\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"
\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"
Plasma Cosmology and the Myth of it not Being Considered
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Wednesday, June 13, 2012, 19:36 (4524 days ago) @ xeno6696
From the wiki: > > " Light element production without Big Bang nucleosynthesis (as required in e.g. Alfvén-Klein cosmology) has been discussed in the mainstream literature and was determined to produce excessive x-rays and gamma rays beyond that observed.[44][45] This issue has not been completely addressed by plasma cosmology proponents in their proposals." > > Meaning: Scientists DO take it seriously, but it has problems it needs to solve. It's lack of mainstream acceptance has more to do with the fact it has holes, than for some Illuminati-like dissension-squashing.-No one has suggested Illuminati-like dissension-squashing. The rate of expansion far exceeds the predictions of the big bang, but they didn't throw it out with the bath water or start calling it psuedo-science, did they? BBT Can't account for galaxy rotation, but they didn't begin calling it creationist propaganda like they did with the EU/PC hypotheses.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Plasma Cosmology and the Myth of it not Being Considered
by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Wednesday, June 13, 2012, 21:32 (4524 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained
From the wiki: > > > > " Light element production without Big Bang nucleosynthesis (as required in e.g. Alfvén-Klein cosmology) has been discussed in the mainstream literature and was determined to produce excessive x-rays and gamma rays beyond that observed.[44][45] This issue has not been completely addressed by plasma cosmology proponents in their proposals." > > > > Meaning: Scientists DO take it seriously, but it has problems it needs to solve. It's lack of mainstream acceptance has more to do with the fact it has holes, than for some Illuminati-like dissension-squashing. > > No one has suggested Illuminati-like dissension-squashing. The rate of expansion far exceeds the predictions of the big bang, but they didn't throw it out with the bath water or start calling it psuedo-science, did they? BBT Can't account for galaxy rotation, but they didn't begin calling it creationist propaganda like they did with the EU/PC hypotheses.- Back that one up. For the past 5 years, all I've heard is that supermassive black holes are the center of spiral galaxies.
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\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"
\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
by David Turell , Monday, July 01, 2019, 18:07 (1950 days ago) @ xeno6696
Plasma is a very unusual form if energy/matter:
https://aeon.co/ideas/plasma-the-mysterious-and-powerful-fourth-phase-of-matter?utm_sou...
" When I was at elementary school, my teacher told me that matter exists in three possible states: solid, liquid and gas. She neglected to mention plasma, a special kind of electrified gas that’s a state unto itself. We rarely encounter natural plasma, unless we’re lucky enough to see the Northern lights, or if we look at the Sun through a special filter, or if we poke our head out the window during a lightning storm, as I liked to do when I was a kid. Yet plasma, for all its scarcity in our daily lives, makes up more than 99 per cent of the observable matter in the Universe.
***
"First, though, how do you make a plasma? Imagine heating up a container full of ice, and watching it pass from solid, to liquid, to gas. As the temperature climbs, the water molecules get more energetic and excitable, and move around more and more freely. If you keep going, at something like 12,000 degrees Celsius the atoms themselves will begin to break apart. Electrons will be stripped from their nuclei, leaving behind charged particles known as ions that swirl about in the resulting soup of electrons. This is the plasma state.
***
"Plasma is also entangled with the physics of the space around Earth, where the stuff gets carried through the void on the winds generated in the upper atmosphere of the Sun. We’re lucky that the Earth’s magnetic field shields us from the charged plasma particles and damaging radiation of such solar wind, but our satellites, spacecraft and astronauts are all exposed. Their capacity to survive in this hostile environment relies on understanding and accommodating ourselves to the quirks of plasma.
"In a new field known as ‘space weather’, plasma physics plays a role similar to that of fluid dynamics in terrestrial, atmospheric conditions. I’ve devoted much of my research to something called magnetic reconnection, where the magnetic field lines in the plasma can tear and reconnect, which leads to a rapid release of energy. This process is believed to power the Sun’s eruptive events, such as solar flares, although detailed comprehension remains elusive.
***
"Looking backward, not forward, in space and time, my hope is that plasma physics will offer insights into how stars, galaxies and galaxy clusters first formed. According to the standard cosmological model, plasma was pervasive in the early Universe; then everything began to cool, and charged electrons and protons bound together to make electrically neutral hydrogen atoms. This state lasted until the first stars and black holes formed and began emitting radiation, at which point the Universe ‘reionised’ and returned to a mostly plasma state.
"Finally, plasmas help to explain some of the most spectacular phenomena we’ve observed in the remotest regions of the cosmos. Take far-away black holes, massive objects so dense that even light can’t escape them. They’re practically invisible to direct observation. However, black holes are typically encircled by a rotating disk of plasma matter, which orbits within the black hole’s gravitational pull, and emits high-energy photons that can be observed in the X-ray spectrum, revealing something about this extreme environment."
Comment: Energy and matter are always equivalent in that they are both the same thing, but as the author notes in the opening paragraph, plasma is not matter as we usually think of it. It is the purest form of energy we can see as a gaseous state of pure charged ions. I've always thought of God as pure energy, but I don't know if He is in this gaseous form. One would think He is in a more organized form. But His form must remain as an unknown.
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
QUOTES: Yet plasma, for all its scarcity in our daily lives, makes up more than 99 per cent of the observable matter in the Universe.
***
"First, though, how do you make a plasma? Imagine heating up a container full of ice, and watching it pass from solid, to liquid, to gas. As the temperature climbs, the water molecules get more energetic and excitable, and move around more and more freely. If you keep going, at something like 12,000 degrees Celsius the atoms themselves will begin to break apart. Electrons will be stripped from their nuclei, leaving behind charged particles known as ions that swirl about in the resulting soup of electrons. This is the plasma state.”
DAVID: Energy and matter are always equivalent in that they are both the same thing, but as the author notes in the opening paragraph, plasma is not matter as we usually think of it. It is the purest form of energy we can see as a gaseous state of pure charged ions. I've always thought of God as pure energy, but I don't know if He is in this gaseous form. One would think He is in a more organized form. But His form must remain as an unknown.
I have always been bewildered by the idea that your God can have any organized form. I don’t understand how an organized form can be eternal, unchanged and present throughout an ever changing material universe. If you think he might be in a form even more organized than material gases, then clearly you think material gases can be conscious. In that case, it is just as logical to suppose that billions of individual blobs of consciousness combined to form billions of different facets of the universe and life as to believe that all the blobs had always been part of a single consciousness, but one day it decided to split itself up into the different facets while still remaining itself.
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
by David Turell , Tuesday, July 02, 2019, 19:02 (1949 days ago) @ dhw
QUOTES: Yet plasma, for all its scarcity in our daily lives, makes up more than 99 per cent of the observable matter in the Universe.
***
"First, though, how do you make a plasma? Imagine heating up a container full of ice, and watching it pass from solid, to liquid, to gas. As the temperature climbs, the water molecules get more energetic and excitable, and move around more and more freely. If you keep going, at something like 12,000 degrees Celsius the atoms themselves will begin to break apart. Electrons will be stripped from their nuclei, leaving behind charged particles known as ions that swirl about in the resulting soup of electrons. This is the plasma state.”DAVID: Energy and matter are always equivalent in that they are both the same thing, but as the author notes in the opening paragraph, plasma is not matter as we usually think of it. It is the purest form of energy we can see as a gaseous state of pure charged ions. I've always thought of God as pure energy, but I don't know if He is in this gaseous form. One would think He is in a more organized form. But His form must remain as an unknown.
dhw: I have always been bewildered by the idea that your God can have any organized form. I don’t understand how an organized form can be eternal, unchanged and present throughout an ever changing material universe. If you think he might be in a form even more organized than material gases, then clearly you think material gases can be conscious. In that case, it is just as logical to suppose that billions of individual blobs of consciousness combined to form billions of different facets of the universe and life as to believe that all the blobs had always been part of a single consciousness, but one day it decided to split itself up into the different facets while still remaining itself.
My position is always the same. I believe in panentheism in which the universe exists in God's consciousness and He is within and without the universe. Your imagination has, as usual, run away with itself. Plasma is a very specialized form and differs from other material gasses as the article makes quite clear. Perhaps you did not understand the points in the article.
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
DAVID: Energy and matter are always equivalent in that they are both the same thing, but as the author notes in the opening paragraph, plasma is not matter as we usually think of it. It is the purest form of energy we can see as a gaseous state of pure charged ions. I've always thought of God as pure energy, but I don't know if He is in this gaseous form. One would think He is in a more organized form. But His form must remain as an unknown.
dhw: I have always been bewildered by the idea that your God can have any organized form. I don’t understand how an organized form can be eternal, unchanged and present throughout an ever changing material universe. If you think he might be in a form even more organized than material gases, then clearly you think material gases can be conscious. In that case, it is just as logical to suppose that billions of individual blobs of consciousness combined to form billions of different facets of the universe and life as to believe that all the blobs had always been part of a single consciousness, but one day it decided to split itself up into the different facets while still remaining itself.
DAVID: My position is always the same. I believe in panentheism in which the universe exists in God's consciousness and He is within and without the universe. Your imagination has, as usual, run away with itself. Plasma is a very specialized form and differs from other material gasses as the article makes quite clear. Perhaps you did not understand the points in the article.
My comment has nothing to do with the article, other than to point out that plasma is a material gas. It was your comment that I did not understand. If you think your God might possibly exist in a gaseous form, but you think it is more likely that his form is “more organized”, then clearly you think he has an organized form! So perhaps now you will comment on the implications I have extrapolated.
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
by David Turell , Wednesday, July 03, 2019, 14:53 (1948 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Energy and matter are always equivalent in that they are both the same thing, but as the author notes in the opening paragraph, plasma is not matter as we usually think of it. It is the purest form of energy we can see as a gaseous state of pure charged ions. I've always thought of God as pure energy, but I don't know if He is in this gaseous form. One would think He is in a more organized form. But His form must remain as an unknown.
dhw: I have always been bewildered by the idea that your God can have any organized form. I don’t understand how an organized form can be eternal, unchanged and present throughout an ever changing material universe. If you think he might be in a form even more organized than material gases, then clearly you think material gases can be conscious. In that case, it is just as logical to suppose that billions of individual blobs of consciousness combined to form billions of different facets of the universe and life as to believe that all the blobs had always been part of a single consciousness, but one day it decided to split itself up into the different facets while still remaining itself.
DAVID: My position is always the same. I believe in panentheism in which the universe exists in God's consciousness and He is within and without the universe. Your imagination has, as usual, run away with itself. Plasma is a very specialized form and differs from other material gasses as the article makes quite clear. Perhaps you did not understand the points in the article.
dhw: My comment has nothing to do with the article, other than to point out that plasma is a material gas. It was your comment that I did not understand. If you think your God might possibly exist in a gaseous form, but you think it is more likely that his form is “more organized”, then clearly you think he has an organized form! So perhaps now you will comment on the implications I have extrapolated.
You have introduced an extrapolation that individual 'blobs' of gas might be conscious, without recognizing that the article makes it clear that plasma is a single very specialized form of matter which is totally different than all other gasses. It plays very specific roles in the universe. What form God has must include the recognition He has consciousness. That implies God has some degree of organization in His form. Theologians think it is simple.
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
DAVID: Energy and matter are always equivalent in that they are both the same thing, but as the author notes in the opening paragraph, plasma is not matter as we usually think of it. It is the purest form of energy we can see as a gaseous state of pure charged ions. I've always thought of God as pure energy, but I don't know if He is in this gaseous form. One would think He is in a more organized form. But His form must remain as an unknown.
dhw: I have always been bewildered by the idea that your God can have any organized form. I don’t understand how an organized form can be eternal, unchanged and present throughout an ever changing material universe. If you think he might be in a form even more organized than material gases, then clearly you think material gases can be conscious. In that case, it is just as logical to suppose that billions of individual blobs of consciousness combined to form billions of different facets of the universe and life as to believe that all the blobs had always been part of a single consciousness, but one day it decided to split itself up into the different facets while still remaining itself.
DAVID: My position is always the same. I believe in panentheism in which the universe exists in God's consciousness and He is within and without the universe. Your imagination has, as usual, run away with itself. Plasma is a very specialized form and differs from other material gasses as the article makes quite clear. Perhaps you did not understand the points in the article.
dhw: My comment has nothing to do with the article, other than to point out that plasma is a material gas. It was your comment that I did not understand. If you think your God might possibly exist in a gaseous form, but you think it is more likely that his form is “more organized”, then clearly you think he has an organized form! So perhaps now you will comment on the implications I have extrapolated.
DAVID: You have introduced an extrapolation that individual 'blobs' of gas might be conscious, without recognizing that the article makes it clear that plasma is a single very specialized form of matter which is totally different than all other gasses. It plays very specific roles in the universe. What form God has must include the recognition He has consciousness. That implies God has some degree of organization in His form. Theologians think it is simple.
If you think that your conscious God may be in the form of a gas (you wrote “I don’t know if He is in this gaseous form”) then clearly you think gas can be conscious! Yes, it would be a very special gas. And yes, of course God (if he exists) must be conscious. But if gas can be conscious, then why must it be one single consciousness? And why shouldn’t other gases also be conscious? And why shouldn’t other forms of matter also be conscious? And why shouldn’t different forms of consciousness combine to form all the different facets of the universe and life? I am, as you will gather, pursuing a panpsychist view of the universe – not through belief, but as an alternative to your view that plasma might possibly be one great big mind.
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
by David Turell , Thursday, July 04, 2019, 21:07 (1947 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: Energy and matter are always equivalent in that they are both the same thing, but as the author notes in the opening paragraph, plasma is not matter as we usually think of it. It is the purest form of energy we can see as a gaseous state of pure charged ions. I've always thought of God as pure energy, but I don't know if He is in this gaseous form. One would think He is in a more organized form. But His form must remain as an unknown.
dhw: I have always been bewildered by the idea that your God can have any organized form. I don’t understand how an organized form can be eternal, unchanged and present throughout an ever changing material universe. If you think he might be in a form even more organized than material gases, then clearly you think material gases can be conscious. In that case, it is just as logical to suppose that billions of individual blobs of consciousness combined to form billions of different facets of the universe and life as to believe that all the blobs had always been part of a single consciousness, but one day it decided to split itself up into the different facets while still remaining itself.
DAVID: My position is always the same. I believe in panentheism in which the universe exists in God's consciousness and He is within and without the universe. Your imagination has, as usual, run away with itself. Plasma is a very specialized form and differs from other material gasses as the article makes quite clear. Perhaps you did not understand the points in the article.
dhw: My comment has nothing to do with the article, other than to point out that plasma is a material gas. It was your comment that I did not understand. If you think your God might possibly exist in a gaseous form, but you think it is more likely that his form is “more organized”, then clearly you think he has an organized form! So perhaps now you will comment on the implications I have extrapolated.
DAVID: You have introduced an extrapolation that individual 'blobs' of gas might be conscious, without recognizing that the article makes it clear that plasma is a single very specialized form of matter which is totally different than all other gasses. It plays very specific roles in the universe. What form God has must include the recognition He has consciousness. That implies God has some degree of organization in His form. Theologians think it is simple.
dhw: If you think that your conscious God may be in the form of a gas (you wrote “I don’t know if He is in this gaseous form”) then clearly you think gas can be conscious! Yes, it would be a very special gas. And yes, of course God (if he exists) must be conscious. But if gas can be conscious, then why must it be one single consciousness? And why shouldn’t other gases also be conscious? And why shouldn’t other forms of matter also be conscious? And why shouldn’t different forms of consciousness combine to form all the different facets of the universe and life? I am, as you will gather, pursuing a panpsychist view of the universe – not through belief, but as an alternative to your view that plasma might possibly be one great big mind.
Once again you are straining at apples and oranges. Plasma is a completely different form of a gas-like substance, a fourth form of matter as contrasted with ordinary gasses. All guesses as to the actual form of God's mind is pure speculation. Theologians posit god is simple. I believe, since the basis of the universe is quantum mechanics God is in some form of quantum activity. Few thinkers think much of panpsychism as I have previously presented.
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
dhw: If you think that your conscious God may be in the form of a gas (you wrote “I don’t know if He is in this gaseous form”) then clearly you think gas can be conscious! Yes, it would be a very special gas. And yes, of course God (if he exists) must be conscious. But if gas can be conscious, then why must it be one single consciousness? And why shouldn’t other gases also be conscious? And why shouldn’t other forms of matter also be conscious? And why shouldn’t different forms of consciousness combine to form all the different facets of the universe and life? I am, as you will gather, pursuing a panpsychist view of the universe – not through belief, but as an alternative to your view that plasma might possibly be one great big mind.
DAVID: Once again you are straining at apples and oranges. Plasma is a completely different form of a gas-like substance, a fourth form of matter as contrasted with ordinary gasses.
So what? You said specifically that you didn’t know if he was in this gaseous form. That means you think it is possible that this gas may be conscious.
DAVID: All guesses as to the actual form of God's mind is pure speculation. Theologians posit god is simple. I believe, since the basis of the universe is quantum mechanics God is in some form of quantum activity. Few thinkers think much of panpsychism as I have previously presented.
This is no answer to the point I have raised above. If you think a particular form of gas might be conscious, then maybe other forms of gas and matter might be conscious too. All guesses are pure speculation. That includes the very existence of a God, let alone what “form” or nature he might have.
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
by David Turell , Friday, July 05, 2019, 14:52 (1946 days ago) @ dhw
dhw: If you think that your conscious God may be in the form of a gas (you wrote “I don’t know if He is in this gaseous form”) then clearly you think gas can be conscious! Yes, it would be a very special gas. And yes, of course God (if he exists) must be conscious. But if gas can be conscious, then why must it be one single consciousness? And why shouldn’t other gases also be conscious? And why shouldn’t other forms of matter also be conscious? And why shouldn’t different forms of consciousness combine to form all the different facets of the universe and life? I am, as you will gather, pursuing a panpsychist view of the universe – not through belief, but as an alternative to your view that plasma might possibly be one great big mind.
DAVID: Once again you are straining at apples and oranges. Plasma is a completely different form of a gas-like substance, a fourth form of matter as contrasted with ordinary gasses.
dhw: So what? You said specifically that you didn’t know if he was in this gaseous form. That means you think it is possible that this gas may be conscious.
DAVID: All guesses as to the actual form of God's mind is pure speculation. Theologians posit god is simple. I believe, since the basis of the universe is quantum mechanics God is in some form of quantum activity. Few thinkers think much of panpsychism as I have previously presented.
dhw: This is no answer to the point I have raised above. If you think a particular form of gas might be conscious, then maybe other forms of gas and matter might be conscious too. All guesses are pure speculation. That includes the very existence of a God, let alone what “form” or nature he might have.
The point you keep missing is plasma is a different form of matter and suggests a special place in the scheme of things. Thus God might be there
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
DAVID: All guesses as to the actual form of God's mind is pure speculation. Theologians posit god is simple. I believe, since the basis of the universe is quantum mechanics God is in some form of quantum activity. Few thinkers think much of panpsychism as I have previously presented.
dhw: This is no answer to the point I have raised above. If you think a particular form of gas might be conscious, then maybe other forms of gas and matter might be conscious too. All guesses are pure speculation. That includes the very existence of a God, let alone what “form” or nature he might have.
DAVID: The point you keep missing is plasma is a different form of matter and suggests a special place in the scheme of things. Thus God might be there
The point you keep missing is that if your God really is made of plasma, plasma must be conscious/aware. All different forms of matter are different forms of matter, and if one form of matter might be conscious/aware, then maybe different forms of matter might also be conscious/aware (tying in with panpsychism).
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
by David Turell , Saturday, July 06, 2019, 15:55 (1945 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: All guesses as to the actual form of God's mind is pure speculation. Theologians posit god is simple. I believe, since the basis of the universe is quantum mechanics God is in some form of quantum activity. Few thinkers think much of panpsychism as I have previously presented.
dhw: This is no answer to the point I have raised above. If you think a particular form of gas might be conscious, then maybe other forms of gas and matter might be conscious too. All guesses are pure speculation. That includes the very existence of a God, let alone what “form” or nature he might have.
DAVID: The point you keep missing is plasma is a different form of matter and suggests a special place in the scheme of things. Thus God might be there
dhw: The point you keep missing is that if your God really is made of plasma, plasma must be conscious/aware. All different forms of matter are different forms of matter, and if one form of matter might be conscious/aware, then maybe different forms of matter might also be conscious/aware (tying in with panpsychism).
It all comes down to whether God has substance at all. I think He is quantum energy since the basis of reality is quantum mechanics. As for panpsychism, I view it as a far out substitute for our reality actually being within God's consciousness
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
DAVID: The point you keep missing is plasma is a different form of matter and suggests a special place in the scheme of things. Thus God might be there
dhw: The point you keep missing is that if your God really is made of plasma, plasma must be conscious/aware. All different forms of matter are different forms of matter, and if one form of matter might be conscious/aware, then maybe different forms of matter might also be conscious/aware (tying in with panpsychism).
DAVID: It all comes down to whether God has substance at all. I think He is quantum energy since the basis of reality is quantum mechanics. As for panpsychism, I view it as a far out substitute for our reality actually being within God's consciousness.
It all comes down to whether your God exists at all. If we accept, for argument’s sake, that he does, at one moment you say it is possible that he is in the form of plasma, the next he is “pure energy”, and the next he is “quantum energy”. I wish I knew what that meant. As for panpsychism, as I understand it, the term is open to any number of interpretations, including your own panentheism (God’s consciousness permeates but also transcends our reality). This a top-down version. I like to consider an atheistic possibility of a bottom-up version, in which energy and materials (or at least some of them) have their own rudimentary mental components, from which physical life and mental complexity have evolved to the forms we know today.
Plasma Cosmology as the fourth form of matter
by David Turell , Sunday, July 07, 2019, 20:32 (1944 days ago) @ dhw
DAVID: The point you keep missing is plasma is a different form of matter and suggests a special place in the scheme of things. Thus God might be there
dhw: The point you keep missing is that if your God really is made of plasma, plasma must be conscious/aware. All different forms of matter are different forms of matter, and if one form of matter might be conscious/aware, then maybe different forms of matter might also be conscious/aware (tying in with panpsychism).
DAVID: It all comes down to whether God has substance at all. I think He is quantum energy since the basis of reality is quantum mechanics. As for panpsychism, I view it as a far out substitute for our reality actually being within God's consciousness.
dhw: It all comes down to whether your God exists at all. If we accept, for argument’s sake, that he does, at one moment you say it is possible that he is in the form of plasma, the next he is “pure energy”, and the next he is “quantum energy”. I wish I knew what that meant. As for panpsychism, as I understand it, the term is open to any number of interpretations, including your own panentheism (God’s consciousness permeates but also transcends our reality). This a top-down version. I like to consider an atheistic possibility of a bottom-up version, in which energy and materials (or at least some of them) have their own rudimentary mental components, from which physical life and mental complexity have evolved to the forms we know today.
I think bottom up is a stretch. The only mental activity I recognize along with most scientists is related to neurons, especially in brains.