near to death episodes (Endings)

by David Turell ⌂ @, Texas, Tuesday, February 12, 2008, 18:09 (5889 days ago)

Both out of the body and near to death episodes have been confirmed, and there a number listed in my book. Actually there are many books with documented examples. If a person is 'clinically' dead or there is no way that a patient in surgery can be awake and observational, and that person accurately describes surrounding events when that person revives or is awakened from deep anesthesia, then that is confirmation. These episodes have been recognized since antiquity.

near to death episodes

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Wednesday, February 13, 2008, 12:50 (5888 days ago) @ David Turell

David Turell claims: Both out of the body and near to death episodes have been confirmed. It depends what your standard of confirmation is. All of the published accounts are anecdotal and thus unscientific. - In the text D. H. Wilson writes: Some people /// have reported extraordinary experiences ///. None of this can be dismissed. It cannot be verified either It could be verified if someone could be found who is willing and able to undergo an out-of-body experience at will. For instance by the experimenter hiding something out of sight that could only be seen when the participant is out-of-body. But the trouble is that these extraordinary experiences apparently only occur in one-off stressful situations and are therefore, conveniently for the believer, untestable. The stressful situation is in itself sufficient explanation for many of the experiences. - In the text D.H.W. also has: There is no doubt that when we die, everything stops, the engine cuts out, the light goes off, the bubble bursts ... but what is it that leaves us? And when it all began, a thousand ages ago, what was it that entered us? We do not know. There is no scientist on earth who can tell us. There is no atheist or theologian on earth who can tell us. Since we do not know, we must keep an open mind about the possibilities. There is nothing that leaves, because there is nothing that enters. We do know. Any idiot can tell us. The machinery of life stops because it breaks down. There is no "ghost in the machine", no "elan vital", no "spirit" or "soul". If you can restart the machine quickly enough, and make the necessary repairs, life returns, the chemical machine that is the living body works again. - We have kept an open mind about this for long enough. The evidence is in. There is no spirit world or life after death. It is time to stop being agnostic, and grow up and accept the truth.

near to death episodes

by Peter P, Wednesday, February 13, 2008, 18:32 (5888 days ago) @ George Jelliss

Oh well, that's it then. David Turell, why did you bother to write your book and presumably do all that research? D.H.Wilson, why did you even think of writing your guide, let alone suggest some openmindedness? Idiots, you should have asked George. He knows it all. Evidence? What evidence? Even if a billion people said they had evidence of ESP, out-of-body, ghosts, mediums, premonitions ... everyone of them is mad or deluded or just plain faking it, because George knows best. - Oh, and he wants someone who is "willing and able to undergo an out-of-body experience at will" so that he can verify it (no use anybody else verifying it, because nobody else's verification counts). Who the heck could will himself let alone want to will himself to die and come back under George's supervision? - Well if people say its happened, and other people have witnessed it happening, I say give them a hearing. So here's my message to David Turell. Tell us more. We don't all think we know it all.

near to death episodes

by dhw, Thursday, February 14, 2008, 07:44 (5887 days ago) @ Peter P

I'd hoped to stay out of the George & Peter love affair, but David Turell's contribution, George's quotes from the "guide", and his schoolmasterly pat on the head as he tells us agnostics to "grow up" and accept his version of "the truth", compel me to join in the fun. - Peter P. in his wonderfully forthright manner seems to me to have identified the crucial point here. What do we regard as evidence? The same subject was raised in the later contributions under Teapot Agnosticism. George writes: "All of the published accounts are anecdotal and thus unscientific." I can only gasp in admiration at George's comprehensive reading (personally I don't even know the titles of all the published accounts), but in any case "unscientific" does not necessarily make them untrue or "not worth considering". A witness giving evidence at a trial can only describe what he or she saw. The question then is not whether the account can be proved scientifically, but simply whether we do or do not believe the witness. If the store detective sees you shoplifting, try telling the judge that the evidence is only "anecdotal". In accounts that I've read, we have the testimony of the person who "died", and we have confirmation from the other people present that the events he describes (but could not have seen) did take place. I would be reluctant to draw any conclusions from this about an afterlife etc., but George's "stressful situation" provides no explanation at all. - 
May I suggest that David Turell selects the most convincing, best authenticated experience from his repertoire, and then we can judge for ourselves if it does or does not constitute evidence. Perhaps George will even give us a simple, natural explanation to set our immature minds at rest. At least it will make a change from abiogenesis.

near to death episodes

by David Turell @, Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 10:13 (5874 days ago) @ dhw

I suggest reading the article in Lancet, Vol: 358, Dec. 15, 2001, by Pim van Lommel. A prosective study of 344 cardiac resuscitations in the Netherlands. with special emphasis on NDE's and OOB's. These were rated as to depth and complexity and then patients followed for mortality over the next 30 days. Very 'deep' events were associated with mortality in 43 percent vs. nine percent in patients with no NDE. Did the brain know death was imminent? They describe one patient who should not have known what he observed during his resuscitiation, all verified. The study does not give us answers but Skeptics like George beware. Keep an open mind. If you want science, this is it. I was skeptical until I heard stories from a dozen of my patients. Consciousnes is a epiphenomenon of the brain, at the quantum level, not open to full explanation because of the uncertainty principal.
 These episodes are not hallucinations, which are wild experiences all over the possibilites of description. NDE's and OOB's all follow a small group of consistent patterns. For example, only the dead are seen in NDE's.
 Keep an open mind. I was skeptical, but no longer. Do I have all the answers? No. But there is something special here.

near to death episodes

by David Turell @, Monday, November 15, 2010, 20:01 (4882 days ago) @ David Turell

These episodes are not hallucinations, which are wild experiences all over the possibilites of description. NDE's and OOB's all follow a small group of consistent patterns. For example, only the dead are seen in NDE's.
> Keep an open mind. I was skeptical, but no longer. Do I have all the answers? No. But there is something special here.-The OOB and NDE phenomenon require evidence of paranormal activity by human brains. Here is some:-http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19712-is-this-evidence-that-we-can-see-the-future.html?full=true&print=true

near to death episodes

by David Turell @, Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 20:39 (5874 days ago) @ George Jelliss

Quoting D. H. Wilson proves nothing. I find his ideas ignorant and reviews of his work on line are quite damning. What is his background of expertese? Why do you trust him.

near to death episodes

by dhw, Thursday, February 28, 2008, 09:39 (5873 days ago) @ David Turell

I think this is a case of mistaken identity. George doesn't trust me at all, and only quotes me to disagree with me! I am the one who is open-minded about NDEs, and George is sceptical. - Thank you for giving us a reference. I'm not sure if what I have found is the actual article you were referring to, but it makes for fascinating reading and I hope others will also follow it up:
www.towardthelight.org/neardeathstudies/pimvanlommelarticles.html

near to death episodes

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Thursday, February 28, 2008, 23:05 (5873 days ago) @ dhw

For some reason I'm not able to access the Pim van Lommel page at the moment, though I looked it over briefly earlier. As I recall it, most of it was highly speculative, bringing in quantum theory and ideas about consciousness. These are ideas that the physicist and mathematician Roger Penrose considered in his book "The Emperor's New Mind" which I read a few years ago and found unconvincing. Nevertheless the speculations, like those of the string theorists, are certainly interesting and might have something in them, but so far lack definite results. - The only 'OBE' anecdote that I noted in my quick read-through of the Pim van Lommel article was the one about the coma patient who recalled the nurse taking out his false teeth and putting them somewhere. Two explanations for this come to mind. The first is that he was in fact able to see what the nurse was doing at the time; but I discount this since the nurse's testimony on his comatose state seems reliable. The second is that after he recovered from his coma, and while the nurse was away, he asked one of her colleagues "where's me teeth?" and got the reply "oh yes, the nurse on duty took them out and put them in her trolley, I'm not sure where that is now, you will have to ask her when she comes back". When she comes back the coma patient relates the story he has been told, but has forgotten who told it to him, so it appears as if he has recalled seeing the incident himself. Van Lommel himself says that memory of such patients is unreliable.

near to death episodes

by David Turell @, Friday, February 29, 2008, 02:28 (5872 days ago) @ dhw

The van pommel article I referred to in Lancet is the first article in the bibliography at the end of his article. The major issue is how do these people report such clear episodes as they have no cerebral function as shown by the flat EEG. George really misses the point of all this by trying to invent a story of how the patient knew who had his teeth. As all Darwinists do, they invent just-so stories to 'explain' what cannot be explained. Van Pommel is so impressed by his findings that he has done a lot more searching. Lancet, as one of the world's leading journals, is very careful about what is printed. That the article passed their judgement indicates its scientific worth. It was a prospective study that related these episodes to subsequent mortality. Extremely impressive. This cannot be explained as the operation of the neurons of brain machinery. Something else is going on, but what?

near to death episodes

by John Clinch @, London, Friday, February 29, 2008, 17:49 (5872 days ago) @ David Turell

Aren't YOU a Darwinist?

near to death episodes

by David Turell @, Saturday, March 01, 2008, 01:49 (5871 days ago) @ John Clinch

Am I a Darwinist? I must answer, sort of. I believe we evolved from some originating one-celled organism, but I also believe that evolution is coded into DNA, and was driven in the 'junk' DNA segments by miRNA and other RNA types which have been shown to control genes and drive changes. In other words I think evolution was a controlled process within certain parameters, and somewhat free within those limits. I also believe that scientific evidence has to be taken into account as it appears. Note that Antony Flew was willing to follow the evidence wherever it led him, and now we have his book "There Is A God". I have done the same thing for the past 35 years and have come to believe there is some sort of imbedded intelligence within the universe. What I meant by just-so stories is the anti-intellectual attempt to explain away puzzling science findings by inventing possible scenarios and then concluding that those scenarios negate unacceptable conclusions to that person's preconceived point of view.

near to death episodes

by John Clinch, Saturday, March 01, 2008, 02:57 (5871 days ago) @ David Turell

It sounds like you're confused. Never mind - we all get befuddled sometimes!

near to death episodes

by David Turell @, Saturday, March 01, 2008, 18:31 (5871 days ago) @ John Clinch

I'm really not befuddled. I've read too much. Follow the books of Paul Davies and you see he goes from pure science to conjectures about a universal intelligence. As I have tried to point out, as science progresses the findings indicate more and more complexity within the universe and within life forms, and these findngs lead to serious doubts about Darwin's very simple theory, and it raises issues about the design of our universe that is so life-permitting. I don't mean to imply that we should have a discussion about the anthropic theory. I think that is just circular reasoning, and it leads to the multiverse conjectures, that we have no way of ever proving, since we are stuck in this one. My point is still read everything you can get your hands on that is not written by nuts, and keep your mind open as Antony Flew did. I find his book fascinating.

near to death episodes

by dhw, Sunday, March 02, 2008, 08:44 (5870 days ago) @ David Turell

Although David Turell is evidently well able to argue for himself, and does so with admirable restraint, I must own to being slightly shocked by John Clinch's bald comment that David is "confused" and "befuddled". The argument seems perfectly clear to me: that he believes generally in evolution, but thinks that the original life form may have been programmed (or "coded") by an "imbedded intelligence" to allow for the changes that take place during evolution. Part of the confusion has perhaps come about because of the term "Darwinist", which is sometimes erroneously equated with "atheist". Darwin was an agnostic who made it clear that there was no inherent clash between his theory of evolution and theism. Another area of confusion, however, may lie in the inability of some people to separate evolution by natural selection from the unrelated hypothesis of abiogenesis. There is no contradiction between belief in the former and non-belief (or even disbelief) in the latter, and I can't help wondering if in this context it is John who is confused and befuddled. I can certainly see no other reason why he should fail to grasp David's point. - I have tried to locate the Pim Van Lommel article on "near death", but one can only access it through www.thelancet.com, and this means registering. I have tried to register three times, and have failed to do so. Is there any other way, David, in which you could make this article available to us? - In the meantime, the first article that I found is freely available in a version that is much easier to read, on:
www.nderf.org/vonlommel_consciousness.htm (note, the "von" is correct).
I also found an interesting interview with Van Lommel: www.odemagazine.com/doc/29/life_goes_on - .

near to death episodes

by John Clinch @, London, Tuesday, March 04, 2008, 18:32 (5868 days ago) @ David Turell

I have followed the books of Paul Davies, though not for a while, and remain a great admirer. - But there's no need to posit God to explain any feature of nature. The idea that there might be an interventionist deity pootering around the universe interfering (presumably miraculously) with genesis and DNA (or equivalent) hundreds of millions of times over is faintly preposterous. - And yet we are here. It is a brute fact of existence that matter seems poised to develop consciousness. In other words, it appears to be embedded in the nature of nature to develop self-awareness and so, ineluctably, the potentiality for this must have been there from the very start. Life doesn't have to enter, stage-left as it were, in the hands of a Sky God. It was the great atheist Russell who was once an advocate of a kind of proto-consciousness to explain this, surely the most significant fact about our universe. And I will admit to being open-minded (NOTE, please, dhw) about the non-scientific notions of panpsychism or panexperientalism. - So let's not cheapen such a magnificent tableau by positing meddling deities or resurrecting the old God-of-the-gaps who is always going to get squeezed out by scientific progress. Dhw is so wrong in his approach on this. We have to raise our game and try to develop a coherent, pro-science, "Einsteinian" reverence (Dawkins' word) for our parent cosmos and leave theologians and others to decide if that is religion or not. Shoe-horning Jehovah or any other intelligent entity or being into evolutionary biology to show He's still needed is just wrong-headed and self-defeating. - [And while I'm here, in response to other postings, can we have no more references to Darwin's faith or lack of it. The man is dead a century and besides, IT'S TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to this debate.]

near to death episodes

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Saturday, March 01, 2008, 13:13 (5871 days ago) @ David Turell

David Turell wrote: "George really misses the point of all this by trying to invent a story of how the patient knew who had his teeth. As all Darwinists do, they invent just-so stories to 'explain' what cannot be explained." - I don't think I missed that point. I accept that there is a lot we don't know about the functioning of the brain. Quantum theory may well have something to do with it. I'm prepared to leave it to the experts. Much research is needed, and there is every sign that it is making progress. - Am I a "Darwinist"? Well I'm convinced by the evidence for evolution by natural selection, which was argued so ably by Darwin, and has been enhanced considerably in the nearly 150 years since he wrote by many able investigators. I also admire Darwin for his personal qualities. But I also have considerable regard for the work of other scientists, does that make me a Galileist, Keplerist, Newtonist, Einsteinist, Thomsonist, Penroseist, or whatever? - A "just-so" story as I understand it comes from Kipling's "How the Camel got his Hump" and other such fancies. My explanation of the lost teeth episode was not an imaginative fiction. It was more in the nature of a deduction from the facts of the case, such as one would find in a detective story. One tries to explain an event that appears inexplicable (such as a death in a locked room) by examining the evidence and questioning its reliability.

near to death episodes

by whitecraw, Saturday, March 01, 2008, 17:00 (5871 days ago) @ George Jelliss

My explanation of the lost teeth episode was not an imaginative fiction. It was more in the nature of a deduction from the facts of the case, such as one would find in a detective story. One tries to explain an event that appears inexplicable (such as a death in a locked room) by examining the evidence and questioning its reliability.' - It was more in the nature of a conjecture. But that's okay: science proceeds by a process of conjecture and refutation. We're presented with some event or class of event that needs explaining (e.g. near death experiences), we conjecture as to what could cause them, and we test each conjecture by deducing what will be the case in such-and-such circumstances if it is true, and then bringing about those circumstances and observing what does in fact come about. If things turn out as we predicted they would if the conjecture was true, then the conjecture passes muster; meaning that, for the time being at least, it hasn't been falsified as an explanation of the event or class of event that stands in need of explanation. - Of course, this process of conjecture and refutation brings us no closer to the Truth. But science isn't in the business of Truth. It's in the business of theory, aiming to provide the best theories it can to explain those natural events that stand in need of explanation. And its quality standards are as follows: out of the range of available theories, the best theory (relatively speaking) is the one which
 
a) best withstands falsification (the principle of testability)
b) employs the fewest number of postulates in its explanations (the principle of economy)
c) generates the greatest number of problems calling for further research (has the greatest 'heuristic' value)
d) explains more than its rivals can (has the greatest explanatory power) - We can come up with theories to explain near death experiences and the like till the cows come home. But until we subject those theories to comparative philosophical analysis and experimental testing, all talk about their relative merits will remain only a meaningless bandying of words.

near to death episodes

by John Clinch @, London, Tuesday, March 04, 2008, 18:45 (5868 days ago) @ whitecraw

But it would be impossible - certainly unethical - to attempt "test" near-death experiences (NDEs) so we are left only with personal accounts of those who have nearly died. These seem to chime with what happens when neuro-scientists stimulate the "God-spot" or similar areas of the brain of given subjects. Even if we could test NDEs, all we would be left with is subjective experience rather like those who experience life-changing sensations when their God-spots are stimulated. It would demonstrate little except that people have mystical experiences. We know that already. - There is no evidence - and I'm not saying that you personally subscribe to the notion - that NDEs point to the possibility of a life after death, however comforting the notion. So let us restrict ourselves to that which we CAN know about - i.e. to test theories about living brains - and leave everything else to the wannabe true believers (whoops, sorry, "agnostics").

near to death episodes

by David Turell @, Tuesday, March 04, 2008, 19:58 (5868 days ago) @ John Clinch

"There is no evidence" is not entirely true. The overwhelming majority of NDE'ers (six out of seven) come back with the feeling that there is a 'heaven'and with consistent stories. These are not hallucinations because they are coherent and the episodes can be divided into identifiable types. Interestingly about one out of seven has a bad or frightening experience. Maybe religions are correct that there are both heaven and hell. Andrew Newberg, M.D. has interesting books on the neurologic side of this, especially, "Why God Won't Go Away". His followup book, "Why We Believe What We Believe", I have not read but has excellent reviews. He does research in brain scans of the religious of various faiths as they meditate or pray.

near to death episodes

by whitecraw, Tuesday, March 04, 2008, 23:47 (5868 days ago) @ John Clinch

But it would be impossible - certainly unethical - to attempt "test" near-death experiences (NDEs) so we are left only with personal accounts of those who have nearly died. These seem to chime with what happens when neuro-scientists stimulate the "God-spot" or similar areas of the brain of given subjects. Even if we could test NDEs, all we would be left with is subjective experience rather like those who experience life-changing sensations when their God-spots are stimulated. It would demonstrate little except that people have mystical experiences. We know that already.
> 
> There is no evidence - and I'm not saying that you personally subscribe to the notion - that NDEs point to the possibility of a life after death, however comforting the notion. So let us restrict ourselves to that which we CAN know about - i.e. to test theories about living brains - and leave everything else to the wannabe true believers (whoops, sorry, "agnostics"). - You put your finger on a very interesting point about the limits of scientific enquiry: that it cannot access the subjective or 'lived' aspect of experience, but is restricted to its objective or observable aspect; science can describe and explain the neurology of grief, for example, but it can give no insight into what it is to grieve, into what grief feels like. This latter ... the inner, 'felt' aspect of experience; its subjectivity ... science has to consign to the unknowable, whereas it is precisely this aspect of experience that we know most intimately and immediately because it is the aspect we live. - But the irreducibility of the human reality of things like grief and death to standard scientific explanation need not be a cause for despair. While these things are scientifically unknowable, they can be clarified through phenomenological reduction. The problem with things like grief and death is that our subjective experience of them is filtered by interpretation and our interpretations are informed by conceptual structures (theories, stories ... narratives). Hence, people who have been pulled back from death will represent their experience of death ... even to themselves ... in terms of some cultural motif, thereby making it publicly and privately comprehensible. The idea of passing on to some afterlife is in many cultures a powerful interpretative device in relation to death as a lived experience. - We can, however, get closer to an unmediated (authentic or 'true') experience of things like grief and death through phenomenological reduction. Phenomenological reduction is a kind of philosophical discipline in which one first becomes conscious of the cultural constructs through which our experience is filtered and then brackets them off. The idea is that, through successive deconstructions, more and more of the cultural accretions are stripped away to leave or reveal the thing itself in its primordial ownness; an experience of the thing itself, unmediated by the historical conceptualisations through which it is normally experienced. - Whether such a pristine experience is attainable in practice, or whether there will always remain some residue of interpretation, is a matter of debate among phenomenologists. Some argue that there is no such 'primordial ownness' to things, and liken the process of phenomenological reduction to that of peeling away the successive layers of an onion, at the heart of which nothing remains. - But whatever the outcomes of that particular debate, the point is that, just because scientific knowledge cannot extend to the subjectivity of experience ... i.e. cannot give us the sort of knowledge of grief that a bereaved parent has ... it does not follow that enquiry ought to be restricted to what can be known scientifically (namely, the neurological events that are the objective aspect of things like grief). There are non-scientific forms of enquiry that can go into aspects of reality from which science precludes itself.

near to death episodes

by John Clinch @, London, Wednesday, March 05, 2008, 12:25 (5867 days ago) @ whitecraw

Yes, aren't they art, philosophy and religion? - I agree that whereas grief or falling in love are as real as chemicals or planets, science can tell us little that is useful (in an everyday sense) about what it FEELS like. Because we're human, we know what it feels like and we respond with grief or falling in love in a human way. - But science can actually say a great deal about whether other creatures grieve and, indeed, whether there is an adaptive aspect to grieving for us human creatures. It can also tell us what is going on in the brain while we grieve. Greater and greater neurological and psychological knowledge informs, or should inform, philosophical speculation about the mind/ body problem. This in turn should aid in our wider understanding of the totality of reality and possibly feed into good, open, religion. So it's not an either/or issue: the point is to acheive a consilience between all these disciplines that produces a coherent and comprehensive understanding of the phenomenon on lots of different levels. And the scientific method grounds it all. - Grief is; falling in love is and either an afterlife is or is not. I happen to believe that it is not but it is essentially a factual question: either you and me will enter a life after death or we won't. Science might never be able to conclusively answer this question by disproving it in a formal sense, just as it may never be able to answer the question as to whether there is more than one universe. I suspect that others on this website may jump on the next statement I am about to make, but I'll say it anyway: the factual nature of these questions (about the existence of an afterlife or more than one universe) is not to be doubted on the sole grounds that it is not amenable to scientific study. It is either true or it is not: unless you are an idealist philosopher, reality really does exist independently of your ability to perceive it. - I will go further and say that if there are limitations to scientific study in principle (bound as science is by what is testable or observable, features currently lacking in the afterlife and multiverse examples), this does not detract from their status as statements that are either true or false. It just means we can't, in principle, ever know for sure. For completeness (and for dhw) I should add that, in my judgement, the question of abiogenesis is not, emphatically not, in that category. There is no "in principle" barrier to scientific study of the origins of life.

near to death episodes

by David Turell @, Wednesday, March 05, 2008, 17:54 (5867 days ago) @ John Clinch

John Clinch feels there is 'no barrier' to the study of the origin of life. I think there is a barrier in several ways. First, the OOL scientists have gotten nowhere because they have been studying the biochemistry that is currently on exibit in life. To go from inorganic to living organic is a tremendous leap, and they have tried to say, if RNA is small and relatively 'simple', lets research that as a beginning. But to go from inorganic to RNA is in reality a giant leap. And this approach requires RNAzymes, RNA molecules which can relpicate themselves and grow new ones to join together, and then to create a variety of RNAs so as to develop an organized living organism. This approach must image that one RNA molecule will appear somehow by accident and that the accidental process will produce a population of these molecules. Nothing known in chemistry can accomplish that. The logical step is to work with inorganic molecules at a very simple level where there is some type of energy exchange loop as theorized by Robert Shapiro. - Second: what is required here is a reproduction of past history in a time where present conditions are totally different than were present 3.6 billion years ago, which is the age of the best evidence of fossils of early life. The Urey-Miller lightening in a bottle experiment in 1953 did produce some amino acids, but used an atmosphere in the bottle that current evidence has shown was not the correct atmosphere. We know what we find now in living matter, but it gives no clue as to how the huge gap was jumped. In other words, studying living matter gives no clue as to how to start life. It is impossible to reproduce history if we were not there to observe it and report on it. - My moral: As a scientifically trained person I don't have blind faith that science can solve all research issues. After all, we have the problem of Heisenberg's uncertainly principle and we cannot get past the quantum wall of uncertainty that so upset Einstein. It is an absolute certainty that we cannot reach into some areas of our reality. Quantum mechanical formulas work as averages of what the individual particles are doing, or should I say what the waves are doing, since quanta are both at the same time, and only become one or the other when they are measured. There are scientists who claim the universe exists only because we are here to observe it!! Do not have blind faith in science. There are limits.

near to death episodes

by John Clinch @, London, Thursday, March 06, 2008, 10:49 (5866 days ago) @ David Turell

Yes, but are these limits in principle or limits adumbrated by what is possible to understand given the current state of knowledge? - I do not have blind faith in anything and I'm under no illusions about the technical difficulties involved in (re)creating life artificially or understanding how it came to be in the first place. It's a tough nut to crack, for sure, but one cannot extrapolate from our present difficulties and conclude that we will never know. I make no claim grander than, from what I know, I think we will come to understand this problem over the coming decades. - But to go further, as dhw has done, and to draw conclusions about the possibility of an interventionist deity from this lack of knowledge, is to make one's theology a hostage to fortune. It will just fall away in the face of the scientific progress that I believe (we can't know, of course) will yield an eventual result. It's just an agnosticism-of-the-gaps. - To address your concluding comments, there are actually very few scientists indeed who subscribe to the strong anthropic principle. I understand it and I confess that a part of me finds it appealing and consoling (two most unhelpful features of any philosophy, particularly natural philosophy). But I have given it much thought over the years and I have concluded that it is, at heart, just a version of Berkelerian idealism. The weak anthropic principle is, on the other hand, a useful tautology possessing great explanatory power.

near to death episodes

by David Turell @, Thursday, March 06, 2008, 18:14 (5866 days ago) @ John Clinch

John Clinch thinks that the weak anthropic principle has great explanatory power. I just don't see that. We have a universe which is extremely fine-tuned for life, roughly 20 major and 80 minor parameters that have been defined. We are here. It is obvious the two statements require each other. We don't know why the universe is so life permitting, we know how it is. Andre' Linde and others use the weak principle to evoke multitudes of universes and by luck we are here in this one which permits us. There is no way to prove that multitude of universes. We can't get out of this one. The most interesting source on this puzzle is John Leslie, retired philosophy professor. His book "Universes" concludes that there are only two alternatives: there is a God or there are multi-universes. (1989) His most recent book, "Imortality Defended", 2007, reinvokes Platonic philosophy. The Big Bang is a creation, with the problem, obviously, by whom or by what. Antony Flew has come to think there is a God. He notes that he is willing to be a flexible thinker, to follow the evidence. Unless you know all the current evidence, you cannot make your own conclusion.

near to death episodes

by whitecraw, Thursday, March 06, 2008, 20:26 (5866 days ago) @ John Clinch

'The weak anthropic principle is, on the other hand, a useful tautology possessing great explanatory power.' - Tautologies have no explanatory power. A tautology is any statement that is necessarily true (i.e. true purely in virtue of its logical form rather than in virtue of any fact about the world), such as 'Either it will rain tomorrow or it will not rain tomorrow.' or 'All bachelors are unmarried men.' Statements such as these have no explanatory power because nothing useful (indeed, nothing at all) can be inferred from them. - Interestingly, it has been suggested that the theory of evolution by natural selection is tautological, insofar as what it boils down to is the claim that those individuals in a population that are best fitted to survive and reproduce in a given environment will be those best fitted to survive and reproduce in that given environment. This is important because, if it is true and the theory is tautological, the theory would thereby be rendered non-scientific, since it would have no explanatory power nor would it be falsifiable, two of the cardinal requirements that need to be satisfied before a theory can enjoy scientific status. - Regarding your identification of the anthropic principle with Berkleian idealism: the two are not the same. The anthropic principle seeks to explain why the universe gives the appearance of having been designed to support life on earth, and does so in terms of the fact that we're around to ask the question. (Basically, the fact that we're around to ask the question teleologically requires the universe to be as it is.). Berkleian idealism holds that, in the absence of God, we have no good reason to suppose on empirical grounds that the world is 'really' any different from how it appears to its observers; i.e. that the world is 'really' an objective universe rather than a perspectival pluriverse. - Two very different theoretical devices designed to do two very different things. - Incidentally: a couple of observations on the anthropic principle. - a)	Contrary to popular belief, the anthropic principle does not entail intelligent design. It does not follow, from the principle that the fact we're around to ask why the universe gives the appearance of having been designed to support life on earth teleologically requires the universe to be such that it supports life on earth, that the universe was efficiently designed that way. To suggest that it does follow is to confuse two very different kinds of 'cause'; namely the final cause of our being around to ask the question and the efficient cause of an intelligent designer. Even if the fact we're around to ask why the universe gives the appearance of having been designed to support life on earth teleologically requires the universe to be such that it supports life on earth, the fact that the universe is so may still have come about by accident rather than design. - b)	The principle is, as you say, tautological. Basically it states that, in order for the universe to be as it is, the universe must be as it is. - c)	The principle is non-scientific. Because it is tautological, it has no explanatory power. Moreover, even if it weren't tautological, it would still fail to meet the standard of scientific explanation because it is teleological. To qualify as a scientific explanation, it would need to give an account of apparent design in terms of the efficient causes which produce it as an effect, thereby conforming to the requirement of methodological naturalism; i.e. the principle that the universe is a closed system of cause and effect and that, to qualify as scientific, an explanation must make no reference to anything outside that closed system, such as the 'final cause' of the anthropic principle ... intelligent life.

near to death episodes

by whitecraw, Wednesday, March 05, 2008, 17:54 (5867 days ago) @ John Clinch

'I happen to believe that it is not but it is essentially a factual question: either you and me will enter a life after death or we won't. Science might never be able to conclusively answer this question by disproving it in a formal sense, just as it may never be able to answer the question as to whether there is more than one universe.' - That's what I believe too; though nothingness ... the condition of death ... is an idea which it is difficult to get one's head around, finding it impossible to imagine myself being in a state of nothingness. Indeed, I once entertained the notion that the fundamental impulse to religion is this inconceivability of one's own being dead. But, despite my belief, I too acknowledge that I can never know whether or not I'll survive death (at least, not until after the event of my own demise), which is why I must remain agnostic in relation to the question. I believe that death will result in my annihilation, but I can't know this. - 'Yes, aren't they art, philosophy and religion?' - I don't think so. Philosophy embraces a wide range of projects, each with its own distinctive aims and methods; but for me it's primarily the business of evaluating beliefs through making explicit the assumptions that underlie them and testing the soundness of the arguments on which they depend. Religion is about realising the divine through the ritual enactment of its narratives in worship and prayer, and through their virtual enactment in the conduct of one's daily life. Philosophy and, more so, religion make use of art in the pursuit of their respective aims, but they are not themselves art. Art, like philosophy, is many things; but, again, for me it's primarily the business of giving expression in works to one's sense of things - 'Greater and greater neurological and psychological knowledge informs, or should inform, philosophical speculation about the mind/ body problem.' - Oh, it does! Neurophysiology and psychology have provided much in the way of grist for the philosophical mills in recent decades, keeping philosophers busy examining the claims that practitioners in those fields make and the thinking that underlies them. There has also been a big debate in philosophical circles concerning the claims made in relation to consilience, following the publication of Edward Wilson's book on the unity of human knowledge, and whether of not the culture gap between the sciences and the humanities can be bridged. An interesting contribution to this debate by Jerry Fodor, which highlights some of the problems the ideal of consilience runs into, is to be found here. The American philosopher, Richard Rorty, dismissed the ideal of consilience by remarking that, even if it was possible to translate the language of literature and the arts into the language of neurophysiology, he couldn't think why anyone would want to. - '[R]eality really does exist independently of your ability to perceive it.' - I'd have to plead guilty to agnosticism in respect of this matter as well. How on earth can we know that? It's a useful thing to believe, but we can hardly experience what reality is really like outside of our experience of it.

near to death episodes

by John Clinch @, London, Thursday, March 06, 2008, 17:06 (5866 days ago) @ whitecraw

Interesting.
To respond to your points... - I myself have no difficulty imagining death as nothingness. Think of a dreamless sleep that lasts forever. - I don't disagree with your comments about art etc, though I'd add that art is the apotheosis of subjectivism - the diametric opposite to science. That doesn't mean that science can't contribute to ideas about art and I have in mind Wilson's comments in Consilience on art criticism. - Thank you for the link to Fodor's criticism. His ideas may be worth considering if I only they weren't so obscured by his tiresome, clever-clever clotted prose. I'm afraid I don't know what "recidivist Associationalism" is meant to mean. I get the gist though and there is probably an argument there but I confess to being impressed by Wilson's book. - On independent reality, yes, the question is a valid one and is as old as philosophy. How we can know reality would open up a whole new discussion that, as someone without a formal training in philosphy, I'm quite sure I can't do justice to. HOWEVER, I am quite unshakeable in my belief that it does exist, that the world will continue without me just as I observe it continuing without the Queen Mother, who I'm quite sure also existed. I guess you could charactise my own ontology as anti-idealist, physicalist and materialist.

near to death episodes

by whitecraw, Thursday, March 06, 2008, 20:57 (5866 days ago) @ John Clinch

'I myself have no difficulty imagining death as nothingness. Think of a dreamless sleep that lasts forever.' - That doesn't work. Both the condition of being asleep (dreamless or otherwise) and the condition of being in time ('forever') imply a subject; someone who is asleep and not dreaming and who never awakes. The whole point of death is that it is not 'like' anything we can imagine or conceive. It is nothing, no condition of which one can be subject precisely because one is dead. It is literally inconceivable; which is why (as I once argued) we have to deal with the prospect of one's own death non-conceptually, or 'expressively', as we do in religion and art. Imagining one's own death as 'a dreamless sleep that lasts forever' is as self-deluding as the notion that it is endless feasting in the halls of Valhalla or endless suffering in the fires of Hell.

near to death episodes

by dhw, Wednesday, March 05, 2008, 17:55 (5867 days ago) @ John Clinch

John Clinch writes: "Let's not cheapen such a magnificent tableau by positing meddling deities or resurrecting the old God-of-the-gaps who is always going to get squeezed out by scientific progress. Dhw is so wrong in his approach on this." - "Let us restrict ourselves to that which we CAN know about ... i.e. to test theories about living brains ... and leave everything else to the wannabe true believers (whoops, sorry, 'agnostics'.)" - You seem to have a remarkable talent for misreading texts, and then criticizing them on the basis of your own inaccurate interpretation (see my reply on 01/03 to your entry on 29/02). Your various entries under Postulation and the first quote above show that you are still missing point after point. Similarly, in your response to whitecraw you say for my benefit: "There is no 'in principle' barrier to scientific study of the origins of life." I never said there was (see 01/03 again.). But your determination to prove that I am a "true believer" and not an agnostic hardly advances the discussion. I suggest you concentrate more on your own beliefs than on mine, since (a) you are infinitely more qualified to do so, and (b) this will certainly generate far more constructive arguments. - I'd like to take the second quote in conjunction with the fact that you are open-minded about panpsychism. If by "panpsychism" you mean that the universe is a single organism endowed with some sort of intelligence, your open-mindedness and mine will have taken a giant step in the same direction. In the section of the "guide" entitled The Nature of a "Creator", one of my many speculations (and you have failed to grasp that all of these sections are speculations, not expressions of belief) reads: 'The designer may even be the universe, which may even be a body, within which the galaxies are limbs and our solar system a mere cell." In the thread entitled Intelligent Design, I was rightly taken to task for using the words design and designer, because these are tainted ... though no-one has yet come up with a suitably neutral alternative (whitecraw suggested demi-urge). But if you ignore the unwanted religious implications of the terminology and my propensity for imagery, perhaps we may find ourselves moving onto common ground. - "Restricting ourselves to that which we CAN know about", however, presupposes that we already know the limits of what we can know about, and you are no doubt referring to the physical world that can be investigated by the natural sciences. But if you are prepared to keep an open mind about panpsychism, then you can at least acknowledge the possibility of an intelligence that may not be subject to scientific research ... a form of mind that is different from ours (and may have been responsible for life on earth). From then on, we can speculate, but my speculations are inevitably more wide-ranging than yours. For instance, even if science works out how all the strands came together, it still won't remove the possibility of a universal mind, and I see no good reason why we should not speculate on the nature of such a mind. Is it conscious like ours? Are there manifestations even within human experience of different forms of consciousness and intelligence from those we are familiar with? Or even different forms of life? Of course it may be that there is no universal mind, and the strands fell into place by chance. We may never know, and you acknowledge this (which interestingly makes me wonder if it's just possible...perish the thought...that in fact deep down you are really an agnostic), but at least we can examine the evidence, and science is not our only means either of access or of examination.

near to death episodes

by John Clinch @, London, Friday, March 07, 2008, 15:22 (5865 days ago) @ dhw

I still think I am justified in my criticism because you have postulated the possibility of an interventionist diety to account for the origin of life on Earth. You would have had absolutely no need to do so were you to accept that scientific study could provide you with an explantion of the mechanics of abiogenesis. You say I am misreading you but I say you appear to want to have your cake and eat it too. My initial suspicions on this were that, because the reasons for your theological position appeared to be so thin, you must be a closet theist and that this was your intellectual portal back to True Belief. I don't know you from Adam and the internet is packed to the gunwales with God-botherers, and if I was wrong in that assessment, I take it back. But I still say that your reason for agnosticism doesn't convince. - As for panpsychism, panexperientalism etc, these are mystical concepts that by definition defy rational explanation. They are unknowable, untestable and we can say very little about them. Philosophical speculation on it may help pass the time, but it's a largely fruitless endeavour. - But I am quite sure that whatever features attach to the physical universe, they apply to the whole kit and caboodle - rocks, gases, elements, black holes, planets, life forms. A principle of uniformity operates throughout the whole of the known universe. Just as the two laws of thermodynamics seems to apply everywhere at all times to all processes, so the life-producing property of matter inheres in everything. I don't envisage a creature or being or cosmic leviathen, just this amazing property that matter has to develop from simple elements to complex organisms. We didn't need cosmic or numinous nudges on our way here - just the right set of circumstances for life to burst forth. The potential was right there at the Big Bang and pervades everything we know or could imagine. It is this aspect of what we know that leads me to what can only be termed a quasi-religious sensibility and, in that narrow sense (as well as the formal sense in which I defined it earlier), I accept the designation "agnostic".

near to death episodes

by David Turell @, Monday, April 28, 2014, 02:42 (3622 days ago) @ John Clinch

A good medica doctor discussion. The video doeesn't add much:-http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/beyondbelief/experts-death-experience/story?id=14221154#.T_gydvW8jbI

near to death episodes: a new study

by David Turell @, Sunday, July 30, 2017, 19:44 (2433 days ago) @ David Turell

154 people with NDE's are analyzed for similarities and differences in their episodes:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170726102934.htm

"They took note of which specific near-death-experiences where present in each narrative and then examined the order of appearance of the different phenomena in each story. They found that on average, a person experiences about 4 different phenomena during a near-death-experience. The most frequently reported features were feeling of peacefulness (80% of participants), seeing a bright light (69%) and encountering with spirits/people (64%), whereas the two most uncommon experiences were speeding thoughts (5%) and precognitive visions (4%). In terms of chronology, they found that a third of the subjects (35%) experienced an out-of-body experience as the first feature of their near-death experience, and that the most frequent last feature was returning to the body (36%). "This suggests that near-death-experiences seem to be regularly triggered by a sense of detachment from the physical body and end when returning to one's body," says Charlotte Martial.

"Overall, the most commonly shared experienced order of occurrences was: out-of-body experience, experiencing a tunnel, seeing a bright light, and finally feeling of peace. This sequence of events was reported by 6 (22%) of the participants. Although pairwise connections between different types of experiences were found in terms of how likely they were to follow each other chronologically, no universal sequence of events could be established in this sample of narratives, which suggests that each near-death-experience has a unique pattern of events."

Comment: Some similarities but each experience is individual. These experiences are recorded as far back as records can go:

http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2017.00311/full

"While the Near-Death Experience (NDE) phenomenon is still, at present, not fully understood, many ancient accounts and representations of these experiences date back to Plato’s Republic and to the 15th century in Hieronymus Bosch’s paintings."

near to death episodes: a new study

by dhw, Monday, July 31, 2017, 08:30 (2432 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: 154 people with NDE's are analyzed for similarities and differences in their episodes:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170726102934.htm

QUOTE: The most frequently reported features were feeling of peacefulness (80% of participants), seeing a bright light (69%) and encountering with spirits/people (64%), whereas the two most uncommon experiences were speeding thoughts (5%) and precognitive visions (4%).

Always an interesting topic. Thank you. I don’t know what they mean by “speeding thoughts”. For me, the most important feature of all these experiences is knowledge of earthly events which the patients could not possibly have known at the time and which are subsequently confirmed: e.g. meeting the spirit of someone who has just died. Is this what they mean by “pre-cognitive visions”? Such knowledge would certainly defy the prosaic explanations offered by the sceptics. (As usual, I sit on my fence.) Another interesting statistic is how many people who survive clinical death have actually had such NDEs. I found the following on Wikipedia:

The prevalence of NDEs has been variable in the studies that have been performed. A 1980–1981 survey of the American population showed that 15% described themselves as having had an "unusual experience" when on the verge of death or having a "close call".
A more selective study in Germany found that 4% of the sample population had had an NDE.
A 2005 telephone survey in Australia concluded that 8.9% of the population had had an NDE.
Incidence among cardiac arrest patients
A number of sources report incidences of near death experiences of:
• 17% amongst critically ill patients, in nine prospective studies from 4 different countries.
• Of these studies, one from 2001 found that 62 patients (18%) had had an NDE, of whom 41 (12%, or 66% of those who had an NDE) described a core experience. Another found an incidence of 6.3% of mental states consistent with NDE.

If there really is a soul that survives the body, why doesn’t every clinically dead patient have an NDE?

near to death episodes: a new study

by David Turell @, Monday, July 31, 2017, 15:20 (2432 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: If there really is a soul that survives the body, why doesn’t every clinically dead patient have an NDE?

Certainly a valid question, just as one might ask why do the NDE'ers have an episode. I had a Catholic friend who had one during surgery, and was frightened that she had done something wrong. Told no one about it until she had a chat with her priest who reassured her, and then discussed it with me for further reassurance.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Monday, October 23, 2017, 05:31 (2348 days ago) @ David Turell

Consciousness survives brain death:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/mind-works-after-death-consciousness-sam-parn...

"When you die you know you are dead: Major study shows mind still works after the body shows no signs of life

"Death just became even more scary: scientists say people are aware they’re dead because their consciousness continues to work after the body has stopped showing signs of life.

"That means that, theoretically, someone may even hear their own death being announced by medics.

"The claim was made by Dr Sam Parnia, director of critical care and resuscitation research . He and his team are looking at people who suffered cardiac arrest, technically died, but were later revived. It’s the largest study of its type ever carried out.

"Some of those studied say they had awareness of full conversations and seeing things that were going on around them, even after they were pronounced dead.

"These accounts were then verified by the medical and nursing staff who were present at the time.

"Death is defined as the point at which the heart no longer beats, and blood flow to the brain is cut off.

"First evidence found that LSD produces 'higher' level of consciousness
Dr Sam Parnia said: “Technically, that's how you get the time of death – it's all based on the moment when the heart stops.

“'Once that happens, blood no longer circulates to the brain, which means brain function halts almost instantaneously.

“'You lose all your brain stem reflexes – your gag reflex, your pupil reflex, all that is gone.”

"However, there’s evidence to suggest that there’s a burst of brain energy as someone dies.
In 2013 researchers at the University of Michigan looked at the electrical signals inside the brains of nine anaesthetised rats having an induced heart attack.

"They saw activity patterns which are linked to a “hyper-alerted state” in the brief period after clinical death.

"Dr Parnia said: "In the same way that a group of researchers might be studying the qualitative nature of the human experience of 'love', for instance, we're trying to understand the exact features that people experience when they go through death, because we understand that this is going to reflect the universal experience we're all going to have when we die.'"

Comment: Consciousness survives brain death for a few minutes. It is obviously separate from the brain itself, and if so dualism is correct.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Monday, October 23, 2017, 14:05 (2348 days ago) @ David Turell

QUOTES: "However, there’s evidence to suggest that there’s a burst of brain energy as someone dies.
In 2013 researchers at the University of Michigan looked at the electrical signals inside the brains of nine anaesthetised rats having an induced heart attack.
They saw activity patterns which are linked to a “hyper-alerted state” in the brief period after clinical death."

David’s comment: Consciousness survives brain death for a few minutes. It is obviously separate from the brain itself, and if so dualism is correct.

Sorry, but if the researchers saw a burst of brain energy “in the brief period AFTER clinical death”, what evidence does that provide for dualism? In the context of NDEs, I would suggest that the evidence for dualism is patients' experiences AFTER the cessation of brain activity, and particularly any information they could not have known at the time. One should perhaps also note that "a few minutes" won't bring much support to those who, like yourself, believe in an afterlife.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Monday, October 23, 2017, 14:52 (2348 days ago) @ dhw

QUOTES: "However, there’s evidence to suggest that there’s a burst of brain energy as someone dies.
In 2013 researchers at the University of Michigan looked at the electrical signals inside the brains of nine anaesthetised rats having an induced heart attack.
They saw activity patterns which are linked to a “hyper-alerted state” in the brief period after clinical death."

David’s comment: Consciousness survives brain death for a few minutes. It is obviously separate from the brain itself, and if so dualism is correct.

dhw: Sorry, but if the researchers saw a burst of brain energy “in the brief period AFTER clinical death”, what evidence does that provide for dualism? In the context of NDEs, I would suggest that the evidence for dualism is patients' experiences AFTER the cessation of brain activity, and particularly any information they could not have known at the time. One should perhaps also note that "a few minutes" won't bring much support to those who, like yourself, believe in an afterlife.

Brain energy is a material matter, not consciousness which is not matter. They are seeing a last gasp phenomenon, nothing to do with the patient's experiences described in the article. Afterlife is after life is fully established when the transition is complete. Parnia is studying an inbetween period.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Tuesday, October 24, 2017, 12:03 (2347 days ago) @ David Turell

QUOTES: "However, there’s evidence to suggest that there’s a burst of brain energy as someone dies.
In 2013 researchers at the University of Michigan looked at the electrical signals inside the brains of nine anaesthetised rats having an induced heart attack.
They saw activity patterns which are linked to a “hyper-alerted state” in the brief period after clinical death."
(dhw's bold)

David’s comment: Consciousness survives brain death for a few minutes. It is obviously separate from the brain itself, and if so dualism is correct.

dhw: Sorry, but if the researchers saw a burst of brain energy “in the brief period AFTER clinical death”, what evidence does that provide for dualism? In the context of NDEs, I would suggest that the evidence for dualism is patients' experiences AFTER the cessation of brain activity, and particularly any information they could not have known at the time. One should perhaps also note that "a few minutes" won't bring much support to those who, like yourself, believe in an afterlife.

DAVID: Brain energy is a material matter, not consciousness which is not matter. They are seeing a last gasp phenomenon, nothing to do with the patient's experiences described in the article. Afterlife is after life is fully established when the transition is complete. Parnia is studying an inbetween period.

You claimed that the article supported dualism, but the experiences described ONLY refer to events that happened around the patient during the final few minutes of brain activity. This implies that awareness of what is going on around the patient still depends on the brain. That is why I suggest that the evidence for dualism comes from patients’ experiences AFTER the cessation of brain activity.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Tuesday, October 24, 2017, 14:52 (2347 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Brain energy is a material matter, not consciousness which is not matter. They are seeing a last gasp phenomenon, nothing to do with the patient's experiences described in the article. Afterlife is after life is fully established when the transition is complete. Parnia is studying an inbetween period.

dhw: You claimed that the article supported dualism, but the experiences described ONLY refer to events that happened around the patient during the final few minutes of brain activity. This implies that awareness of what is going on around the patient still depends on the brain. That is why I suggest that the evidence for dualism comes from patients’ experiences AFTER the cessation of brain activity.

Go back and read the article. Parnia is studying people who are clinically brain dead, and finds them experiencing events they should not be aware of. Inactive brain while having experiences is dualism to me.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Wednesday, October 25, 2017, 13:26 (2346 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: You claimed that the article supported dualism, but the experiences described ONLY refer to events that happened around the patient during the final few minutes of brain activity. This implies that awareness of what is going on around the patient still depends on the brain. That is why I suggest that the evidence for dualism comes from patients’ experiences AFTER the cessation of brain activity.

DAVID: Go back and read the article. Parnia is studying people who are clinically brain dead, and finds them experiencing events they should not be aware of. Inactive brain while having experiences is dualism to me.

I can’t get the whole article, so I am relying on what you posted. The only experiences recounted in the article are of events taking place in the presence of the patient, and the article is absolutely explicit that during these few minutes the brain is ACTIVE:

QUOTES:
"However, there’s evidence to suggest that there’s a burst of brain energy as someone dies.
"They saw activity patterns which are linked to a “hyper-alerted state” in the brief period after clinical death
.” (My bold)

If there is a burst of brain energy in a hyper-alerted state and there are activity patterns in the brief period after clinical death, then the brain can’t be called inactive!

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Wednesday, October 25, 2017, 15:35 (2346 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Wednesday, October 25, 2017, 15:45


DAVID: Go back and read the article. Parnia is studying people who are clinically brain dead, and finds them experiencing events they should not be aware of. Inactive brain while having experiences is dualism to me.

dhw: I can’t get the whole article, so I am relying on what you posted. The only experiences recounted in the article are of events taking place in the presence of the patient, and the article is absolutely explicit that during these few minutes the brain is ACTIVE:

QUOTES:
"However, there’s evidence to suggest that there’s a burst of brain energy as someone dies.
"They saw activity patterns which are linked to a “hyper-alerted state” in the brief period after clinical death
.” (My bold)

If there is a burst of brain energy in a hyper-alerted state and there are activity patterns in the brief period after clinical death, then the brain can’t be called inactive!

I gave you the entire article. The hyperactivity is BRIEF, not the whole period of the resuscitation. Brain function stops in about 20 seconds after blood flow stops. Brain death is absolute in adults in 4-6 minutes after blood flow stops. Resuscitation maintains blood flow until the heart can be restarted, so the brain gets enough blood to avoid death, but not to create consciousness.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Wednesday, October 25, 2017, 23:26 (2346 days ago) @ David Turell

Another article on the Parnia study:

http://bigthink.com/philip-perry/after-death-youre-aware-that-youve-died-scientists-cla...

"Some scientists have studied near death experiences (NDEs) to try to gain insights into how death overcomes the brain. What they’ve found is remarkable, a surge of electricity enters the brain moments before brain death. One 2013 study out of the University of Michigan, which examined electrical signals inside the heads of rats, found they entered a hyper-alert state just before death.

"Scientists are beginning to think an NDE is caused by reduced blood flow, coupled with abnormal electrical behavior inside the brain. So the stereotypical tunnel of white light might derive from a surge in neural activity. Dr. Sam Parnia is the director of critical care and resuscitation research, at NYU Langone School of Medicine, in New York City. He and colleagues are investigating exactly how the brain dies.

***

“'Many times, those who have had such experiences talk about floating around the room and being aware of the medical team working on their body,” Dr. Parnia told Live Science. “They'll describe watching doctors and nurses working and they'll describe having awareness of full conversations, of visual things that were going on, that would otherwise not be known to them.”

"Medical staff confirm this, he said. So how could those who were technically dead be cognizant of what’s happening around them? Even after our breathing and heartbeat stops, we’re conscious for about 2-20 seconds, Dr. Parnia says. That’s how long the cerebral cortex is thought to last without oxygen. This is the thinking and decision-making part of the brain. It’s also responsible for deciphering the information gathered from our senses.
According to Parnia during this period, "You lose all your brain stem reflexes — your gag reflex, your pupil reflex, all that is gone." Brain waves from the cerebral cortex soon become undetectable.

"Usually, when the heart stops beating, someone performs CPR (cardiopulmonary resuscitation). This will provide about 15% of the oxygen needed to perform normal brain function. "If you manage to restart the heart, which is what CPR attempts to do, you'll gradually start to get the brain functioning again,” Parnia said. “The longer you're doing CPR, those brain cell death pathways are still happening — they're just happening at a slightly slower rate."

***

"'At the same time, we also study the human mind and consciousness in the context of death,” Parnia said, “to understand whether consciousness becomes annihilated or whether it continues after you've died for some period of time — and how that relates to what's happening inside the brain in real time.'"

Comment: It is generally assumed that once the EEG is flat ( in 2-20 seconds) the brain is no longer receiving stimuli through consciousness. No one knows what the surge of electrical activity means other than extra electricity is recorded briefly as the brain stops receiving oxygen. Since some patients in NDE's can recognize activity around them for many minutes, the surge doesn't explain what is happening. Still evidence for dualism.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Thursday, October 26, 2017, 12:31 (2345 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Go back and read the article. Parnia is studying people who are clinically brain dead, and finds them experiencing events they should not be aware of. Inactive brain while having experiences is dualism to me.

dhw: I can’t get the whole article, so I am relying on what you posted. The only experiences recounted in the article are of events taking place in the presence of the patient, and the article is absolutely explicit that during these few minutes the brain is ACTIVE:

QUOTES:
"However, there’s evidence to suggest that there’s a burst of brain energy as someone dies.
"They saw activity patterns which are linked to a “hyper-alerted state” in the brief period after clinical death.
” (My bold)

If there is a burst of brain energy in a hyper-alerted state and there are activity patterns in the brief period after clinical death, then the brain can’t be called inactive!

DAVID: I gave you the entire article. The hyperactivity is BRIEF, not the whole period of the resuscitation. Brain function stops in about 20 seconds after blood flow stops. Brain death is absolute in adults in 4-6 minutes after blood flow stops. Resuscitation maintains blood flow until the heart can be restarted, so the brain gets enough blood to avoid death, but not to create consciousness.

I know it’s brief. That is the point. You wrote: “Inactive brain while having experiences is dualism to me.” The researchers only describe that brief period, and the experiences of the patients refer only to that brief period when the brain was ACTIVE. Evidence for dualism would have to relate to experiences and information obtained when the brain CEASES to be active.

DAVID:(2nd post): It is generally assumed that once the EEG is flat ( in 2-20 seconds) the brain is no longer receiving stimuli through consciousness. No one knows what the surge of electrical activity means other than extra electricity is recorded briefly as the brain stops receiving oxygen. Since some patients in NDE's can recognize activity around them for many minutes, the surge doesn't explain what is happening. Still evidence for dualism.

Your 2-20 seconds is irrelevant. You say “brain death is absolute” after 4-6 minutes, and so the brain is NOT dead for those minutes. That is the time when the patients recognized activity around them. If they can provide information about what happens when the brain is “absolutely” dead (and especially about events outside the operating theatre – as in many other NDEs), I’ll agree that it provides evidence for dualism.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Thursday, October 26, 2017, 15:04 (2345 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID:(2nd post): It is generally assumed that once the EEG is flat ( in 2-20 seconds) the brain is no longer receiving stimuli through consciousness. No one knows what the surge of electrical activity means other than extra electricity is recorded briefly as the brain stops receiving oxygen. Since some patients in NDE's can recognize activity around them for many minutes, the surge doesn't explain what is happening. Still evidence for dualism.

dhw: Your 2-20 seconds is irrelevant. You say “brain death is absolute” after 4-6 minutes, and so the brain is NOT dead for those minutes. That is the time when the patients recognized activity around them. If they can provide information about what happens when the brain is “absolutely” dead (and especially about events outside the operating theatre – as in many other NDEs), I’ll agree that it provides evidence for dualism.

To explain further the brain death I'm describing after 4-6 minutes (15 minutes in very young children) is the whole cortex. The deeper structures live much longer, and it is here it is argued by some that consciousness could be hiding, but those areas are mainly fiber connections. Patients do describe events, and it is strong evidence for dualism.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Friday, October 27, 2017, 14:10 (2344 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID:(2nd post): It is generally assumed that once the EEG is flat ( in 2-20 seconds) the brain is no longer receiving stimuli through consciousness. No one knows what the surge of electrical activity means other than extra electricity is recorded briefly as the brain stops receiving oxygen. Since some patients in NDE's can recognize activity around them for many minutes, the surge doesn't explain what is happening. Still evidence for dualism.

dhw: Your 2-20 seconds is irrelevant. You say “brain death is absolute” after 4-6 minutes, and so the brain is NOT dead for those minutes. That is the time when the patients recognized activity around them. If they can provide information about what happens when the brain is “absolutely” dead (and especially about events outside the operating theatre – as in many other NDEs), I’ll agree that it provides evidence for dualism.

DAVID: To explain further the brain death I'm describing after 4-6 minutes (15 minutes in very young children) is the whole cortex. The deeper structures live much longer, and it is here it is argued by some that consciousness could be hiding, but those areas are mainly fiber connections. Patients do describe events, and it is strong evidence for dualism.

The longer the physical structures live, the more evidence they provide for materialism. It is only when the materials are well and truly dead that we can say the events described – especially those outside the operating theatre and producing hitherto unknown information – provide evidence for dualism. (Such events have indeed been described, which is why I remain open-minded on the subject.)

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Friday, October 27, 2017, 14:34 (2344 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: To explain further the brain death I'm describing after 4-6 minutes (15 minutes in very young children) is the whole cortex. The deeper structures live much longer, and it is here it is argued by some that consciousness could be hiding, but those areas are mainly fiber connections. Patients do describe events, and it is strong evidence for dualism.

dhw: The longer the physical structures live, the more evidence they provide for materialism. It is only when the materials are well and truly dead that we can say the events described – especially those outside the operating theatre and producing hitherto unknown information – provide evidence for dualism. (Such events have indeed been described, which is why I remain open-minded on the subject.)

The area of discussion must remain the human cortex. The time limits I've given are related to postmortem examination of brains which did not survive resuscitation and showed very extensive damage to the cortex, which is very sensitive to oxygen supply. Note, heart stops, unconsciousness in 20 seconds or less. To the best of our knowledge the cortex is where consciousness is conducted.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Saturday, October 28, 2017, 13:43 (2343 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: To explain further the brain death I'm describing after 4-6 minutes (15 minutes in very young children) is the whole cortex. The deeper structures live much longer, and it is here it is argued by some that consciousness could be hiding, but those areas are mainly fiber connections. Patients do describe events, and it is strong evidence for dualism.

dhw: The longer the physical structures live, the more evidence they provide for materialism. It is only when the materials are well and truly dead that we can say the events described – especially those outside the operating theatre and producing hitherto unknown information – provide evidence for dualism. (Such events have indeed been described, which is why I remain open-minded on the subject.)

DAVID: The area of discussion must remain the human cortex. The time limits I've given are related to postmortem examination of brains which did not survive resuscitation and showed very extensive damage to the cortex, which is very sensitive to oxygen supply. Note, heart stops, unconsciousness in 20 seconds or less. To the best of our knowledge the cortex is where consciousness is conducted.

But the researchers claim that the patients must have been conscious for a few minutes after what they regarded as clinical death. If the cortex continues to function for 4-6 minutes and is where “consciousness is conducted”, and patients register information for 4-6 minutes, and the information relates to events that occur during the 4-6 minutes after clinical death, the implication is that consciousness does NOT end after 20 seconds or less, and that the cortex is the source of consciousness. Only when the cortex ceases to function, and the patient undergoes experiences that can later be authenticated can we say that we have evidence of dualism.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Saturday, October 28, 2017, 15:33 (2343 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: The area of discussion must remain the human cortex. The time limits I've given are related to postmortem examination of brains which did not survive resuscitation and showed very extensive damage to the cortex, which is very sensitive to oxygen supply. Note, heart stops, unconsciousness in 20 seconds or less. To the best of our knowledge the cortex is where consciousness is conducted.

dhw: But the researchers claim that the patients must have been conscious for a few minutes after what they regarded as clinical death. If the cortex continues to function for 4-6 minutes and is where “consciousness is conducted”, and patients register information for 4-6 minutes, and the information relates to events that occur during the 4-6 minutes after clinical death, the implication is that consciousness does NOT end after 20 seconds or less, and that the cortex is the source of consciousness. Only when the cortex ceases to function, and the patient undergoes experiences that can later be authenticated can we say that we have evidence of dualism.

Sorry you are confused. The cortex stops functioning within 20 seconds, not 4-6 minutes. From my original entry:

"Dr Sam Parnia said: “Technically, that's how you get the time of death – it's all based on the moment when the heart stops.
“'Once that happens, blood no longer circulates to the brain, which means brain function halts almost instantaneously.
“'You lose all your brain stem reflexes – your gag reflex, your pupil reflex, all that is gone.'”

But from what patients tell physicians they are able to experience events around them for the minutes it takes to fully resuscitate them. I've had courses is resuscitation and resuscitated patients. I've had patients tell me abut out of body experiences during surgery. The cortex is the only seat of awareness known, and its not functioning. But consciousness is! Dualism is supported.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Sunday, October 29, 2017, 13:22 (2342 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The area of discussion must remain the human cortex. The time limits I've given are related to postmortem examination of brains which did not survive resuscitation and showed very extensive damage to the cortex, which is very sensitive to oxygen supply. Note, heart stops, unconsciousness in 20 seconds or less. To the best of our knowledge the cortex is where consciousness is conducted.

dhw: But the researchers claim that the patients must have been conscious for a few minutes after what they regarded as clinical death. If the cortex continues to function for 4-6 minutes and is where “consciousness is conducted”, and patients register information for 4-6 minutes, and the information relates to events that occur during the 4-6 minutes after clinical death, the implication is that consciousness does NOT end after 20 seconds or less, and that the cortex is the source of consciousness. Only when the cortex ceases to function, and the patient undergoes experiences that can later be authenticated can we say that we have evidence of dualism.

DAVID: Sorry you are confused. The cortex stops functioning within 20 seconds, not 4-6 minutes. From my original entry:
"Dr Sam Parnia said: “Technically, that's how you get the time of death – it's all based on the moment when the heart stops.
“'Once that happens, blood no longer circulates to the brain, which means brain function halts almost instantaneously.
“'You lose all your brain stem reflexes – your gag reflex, your pupil reflex, all that is gone.'”

He also wrote: "They saw activity patterns which are linked to a “hyper-alerted state” in the brief period after clinical death.” (My bold)

Clearly there is a problem with what he describes as the technical time of death. Why should it be the stoppage of the heart? But I am indeed confused. This was your further explanation:
DAVID: To explain further the brain death I'm describing after 4-6 minutes (15 minutes in very young children) is the whole cortex. (My bold)

This is confirmed by various websites (unless I have badly misunderstood their message and your post): the brain can survive FOR SOME MINUTES after the heart stops. The physical reflexes are gone, but it would seem from these accounts that consciousness remains for those few minutes. So the cortex as the “seat of awareness” DOES still function for 4-6 minutes. How does that prove that it is not the source of consciousness? Again: once the cortex is well and truly dead, you can use experiences as evidence for dualism.

DAVID: But from what patients tell physicians they are able to experience events around them for the minutes it takes to fully resuscitate them. I've had courses is resuscitation and resuscitated patients. I've had patients tell me abut out of body experiences during surgery. The cortex is the only seat of awareness known, and its not functioning. But consciousness is! Dualism is supported.

The cortex is not functioning as the motor for physical reflexes, but the brain activity the researchers have recorded after the stoppage of the heart and the experiences that coincide with that brief period show that it is still functioning as the “seat of awareness”, which suggests that it is the SOURCE of consciousness.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Sunday, October 29, 2017, 14:01 (2342 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: Sorry you are confused. The cortex stops functioning within 20 seconds, not 4-6 minutes. From my original entry:
"Dr Sam Parnia said: “Technically, that's how you get the time of death – it's all based on the moment when the heart stops.
“'Once that happens, blood no longer circulates to the brain, which means brain function halts almost instantaneously.
“'You lose all your brain stem reflexes – your gag reflex, your pupil reflex, all that is gone.'”

dhw: He also wrote: "They saw activity patterns which are linked to a “hyper-alerted state” in the brief period after clinical death.” (My bold)

Clearly there is a problem with what he describes as the technical time of death. Why should it be the stoppage of the heart? But I am indeed confused. This was your further explanation:

DAVID: To explain further the brain death I'm describing after 4-6 minutes (15 minutes in very young children) is the whole cortex. (My bold)

dhw: This is confirmed by various websites (unless I have badly misunderstood their message and your post): oxygen continues to reach the brain FOR SOME MINUTES after the heart stops. The physical reflexes are gone, but it would seem from these accounts that consciousness remains for those few minutes. So the cortex as the “seat of awareness” DOES still function for 4-6 minutes.

Wrong! When blood flow stops, consciousness disappears in 4-20 seconds. There is no further oxygen delivery but the living, non-functioning cortex has residual oxygen which permits it, in the adult to survive about four minutes before complete death of those cells. This is why resuscitation can work. However, the EEG is flat, no electrical activity present, obviously it is not functional.. Consciousness obviously continues, based on NDE's, while the cortex is demonstrably non-functional. The 'hyperactivity' is an agonal burst from a distressed cortex and is over in a few seconds.

dhw: How does that prove that it is not the source of consciousness? Again: once the cortex is well and truly dead, you can use experiences as evidence for dualism.

At this point the patient is permanently brain dead, and consciousness has gone to the afterlife. In the 4-6 minute period after blood and oxygen delivery is stopped, before neuron death, you are correct. Consciousness could be received there, but how would a non-functioning network of neurons handle it? You are saying it an function without evidence of function, either physically or by EEG.


DAVID: But from what patients tell physicians they are able to experience events around them for the minutes it takes to fully resuscitate them. I've had courses is resuscitation and resuscitated patients. I've had patients tell me abut out of body experiences during surgery. The cortex is the only seat of awareness known, and its not functioning. But consciousness is! Dualism is supported.

dhw: The cortex is not functioning as the motor for physical reflexes, but the brain activity the researchers have recorded after the stoppage of the heart and the experiences that coincide with that brief period show that it is still functioning as the “seat of awareness”, which suggests that it is the SOURCE of consciousness.

The brief agonal burst is just for a few seconds. You are trying to stretch it. Resuscitation events can last 20-30 minutes (I've been there), and revived patients can then tell us about the NDE.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Monday, October 30, 2017, 12:43 (2341 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: This is confirmed by various websites (unless I have badly misunderstood their message and your post): oxygen continues to reach the brain FOR SOME MINUTES after the heart stops. The physical reflexes are gone, but it would seem from these accounts that consciousness remains for those few minutes. So the cortex as the “seat of awareness” DOES still function for 4-6 minutes.
David: Wrong! When blood flow stops, consciousness disappears in 4-20 seconds. There is no further oxygen delivery but the living, non-functioning cortex has residual oxygen which permits it, in the adult to survive about four minutes before complete death of those cells.

If patients observe events after bloodflow stops, then clearly consciousness does NOT disappear in 4-20 seconds. But thank you for the correction concerning delivery as opposed to residue. I had actually edited the wording before you replied, as I had misread one of the websites. However, it is the 4-6 minutes of brain survival that are crucial. See below.

DAVID: At this point the patient is permanently brain dead, and consciousness has gone to the afterlife. In the 4-6 minute period after blood and oxygen delivery is stopped, before neuron death, you are correct. Consciousness could be received there, but how would a non-functioning network of neurons handle it? You are saying it an function without evidence of function, either physically or by EEG.

There is nothing to “handle”. A materialist can argue that the evidence of function is the patient’s awareness of what went on around him/her during the 4-6 minutes when the cortex could still register events even though it had lost connection with the rest of the body.

DAVID: The brief agonal burst is just for a few seconds. You are trying to stretch it. Resuscitation events can last 20-30 minutes (I've been there), and revived patients can then tell us about the NDE.

Thank you for the information about the agonal burst. In that case, I don’t understand why the researchers attach so much importance to it, since it proves nothing. As for the rest, I can only repeat what I wrote last time: “the researchers claim that the patients must have been conscious for a few minutes after what they regarded as clinical death. If the cortex continues to function for 4-6 minutes and is where “consciousness is conducted”, and patients register information for 4-6 minutes, and the information relates to events that occur during the 4-6 minutes after clinical death, the implication is that consciousness does NOT end after 20 seconds or less, and that the cortex is the source of consciousness. Only when the cortex ceases to function, and the patient undergoes experiences that can later be authenticated can we say that we have evidence of dualism.

If the events described by the patients took place AFTER the death of the cortex, then they are evidence for dualism. The article tells us about events immediately after heart stoppage. We therefore need more information about the timing before we can talk of evidence.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Monday, October 30, 2017, 16:54 (2341 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: At this point the patient is permanently brain dead, and consciousness has gone to the afterlife. In the 4-6 minute period after blood and oxygen delivery is stopped, before neuron death, you are correct. Consciousness could be received there, but how would a non-functioning network of neurons handle it? You are saying it an function without evidence of function, either physically or by EEG.

dhw: There is nothing to “handle”. A materialist can argue that the evidence of function is the patient’s awareness of what went on around him/her during the 4-6 minutes when the cortex could still register events even though it had lost connection with the rest of the body.

The materialist cannot argue against EEG evidence. The cortex is not registering any sensory input or other functions. The 4-6 minute interval covers a time of unconsciousness until neuron death. The cortex stops function by 20 seconds, not functional for 4-6 minutes. Period. The cortex is accepted as the seat of consciousness. Therefore tell me what is conscious during an NDE? NO ONE knows! The NDE research folks understand this point. It is why Parnia is fiercely pursuing the issue.


DAVID: The brief agonal burst is just for a few seconds. You are trying to stretch it. Resuscitation events can last 20-30 minutes (I've been there), and revived patients can then tell us about the NDE.

dhw: Thank you for the information about the agonal burst. In that case, I don’t understand why the researchers attach so much importance to it, since it proves nothing.

Not nothing. It shows the brain can try to function without oxygen.

dhw: As for the rest, I can only repeat what I wrote last time: “the researchers claim that the patients must have been conscious for a few minutes after what they regarded as clinical death. If the cortex continues to function for 4-6 minutes and is where “consciousness is conducted”, and patients register information for 4-6 minutes, and the information relates to events that occur during the 4-6 minutes after clinical death, the implication is that consciousness does NOT end after 20 seconds or less, and that the cortex is the source of consciousness. Only when the cortex ceases to function, and the patient undergoes experiences that can later be authenticated can we say that we have evidence of dualism.


If the events described by the patients took place AFTER the death of the cortex, then they are evidence for dualism. The article tells us about events immediately after heart stoppage. We therefore need more information about the timing before we can talk of evidence.

You are pursuing a dead horse! After cortical death, the surviving patient is brain dead, living on lower centers only. He cannot communicate anything. I had one resuscitation patient who survived but lost a substantial portion of mental capacity. He went to a nursing home to care for him as he couldn't. What the patients who fully survive describe are events than occur during resuscitation which can last 20-40 minutes. The resuscitation effort brings back EEG activity in 4-6 minutes, but the patient is unconscious because of the event. Think of the Dutch patient of van Lommel, brought in unconscious who asked the next day about his teeth and knew the nurse who took them out. Resuscitation provides a low level of oxygen to the brain which preserves the cortex at an unconscious level. How the patient is aware of surroundings is the issue. No one knows how they know what they describe when revived.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 11:55 (2340 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: If the events described by the patients took place AFTER the death of the cortex, then they are evidence for dualism. The article tells us about events immediately after heart stoppage. We therefore need more information about the timing before we can talk of evidence.

DAVID: After cortical death, the surviving patient is brain dead, living on lower centers only. He cannot communicate anything […] What the patients who fully survive describe are events than occur during resuscitation which can last 20-40 minutes. The resuscitation effort brings back EEG activity in 4-6 minutes, but the patient is unconscious because of the event […] Think of the Dutch patient of van Lommel, brought in unconscious who asked the next day about his teeth and knew the nurse who took them out. Resuscitation provides a low level of oxygen to the brain which preserves the cortex at an unconscious level. How the patient is aware of surroundings is the issue. No one knows how they know what they describe when revived.

I have edited your post, because the focus has now undergone an important shift. If I’ve understood you correctly, the cortex survives heart stoppage for 4-6 minutes, after which the doctor supplies sufficient oxygen to keep it alive, so it is in the same (theoretically unconscious) state as when the heart stopped beating. My original criticism of the article was that it did not tell us the time of the observations, but what you have now explained expands the time range, because the cortex is still alive. You said that: “In the 4-6 minute period after blood and oxygen delivery is stopped, before neuron death, you are correct. Consciousness could be received there, but how would a non-functioning network of neurons handle it?” If blood and oxygen delivery is restarted by resuscitation, wouldn’t the same state continue throughout the 20-40 minutes?

There are two basic assumptions in your comments, both of which can be challenged. 1) That the cortex is only a receiver of consciousness, whereas the materialist will claim that it is the generator. (I’m not taking sides. I’m simply considering both viewpoints.) 2) that an inability to communicate and to perform physical functions denotes unconsciousness. My poor late wife had the same symptoms after her second stroke, but I was told by her doctors that we could not know if she was conscious or not. There are also documented cases of coma patients who were deemed to be unconscious but were fully aware of what was going on around them.

It is clear, then, that all those NDEs that recount events going on around the patient mean that he/she is conscious. But as you say, nobody knows how. Maybe a dualistic “soul” is the answer. But if the cortex is not dead, and is active enough to be the “receiver”, it could also be the generator, and that would be the materialist view. However, in many cases of NDEs, the patient “returns” with information from outside the operating theatre, and I suggest that those are the experiences which cannot be explained by materialism. The article itself provides no evidence for dualism,

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Tuesday, October 31, 2017, 14:16 (2340 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: You said that: “In the 4-6 minute period after blood and oxygen delivery is stopped, before neuron death, you are correct. Consciousness could be received there, but how would a non-functioning network of neurons handle it?” If blood and oxygen delivery is restarted by resuscitation, wouldn’t the same state continue throughout the 20-40 minutes?

It is a minimal blood supply which keeps the cortex from dying, but does not bring back evidence of function. The EEG's are flat. How a resuscitation ends has two parts: the heart won't start and the pupils which remain normal and small are now found to be enlarged and unresponsive to light, signaling cortical death in the optical cortex, thus the whole cortex. No point in continuing.


dhw: There are two basic assumptions in your comments, both of which can be challenged. 1) That the cortex is only a receiver of consciousness, whereas the materialist will claim that it is the generator. (I’m not taking sides. I’m simply considering both viewpoints.) 2) that an inability to communicate and to perform physical functions denotes unconsciousness. My poor late wife had the same symptoms after her second stroke, but I was told by her doctors that we could not know if she was conscious or not. There are also documented cases of coma patients who were deemed to be unconscious but were fully aware of what was going on around them.

dhw: It is clear, then, that all those NDEs that recount events going on around the patient mean that he/she is conscious. But as you say, nobody knows how. Maybe a dualistic “soul” is the answer. But if the cortex is not dead, and is active enough to be the “receiver”, it could also be the generator, and that would be the materialist view. However, in many cases of NDEs, the patient “returns” with information from outside the operating theatre, and I suggest that those are the experiences which cannot be explained by materialism. The article itself provides no evidence for dualism,

I'll skip point one which is just a side comment to our discussion. Point 2 regards your wife and cases of coma; there is EEG activity from the cortex which is generally not normal in appearance. The cortex is alive to some degree. The 'locked in' state does describe a very special group of patients who are aware but do not or cannot communicate after the event that damaged their brain. This may persist for years, not the 20-40 minutes in prolonged resuscitations. For me NDE's prove dualism. The article refers to them.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Wednesday, November 01, 2017, 12:12 (2339 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: 2) I challenged the assumption that […] an inability to communicate and to perform physical functions denotes unconsciousness. My poor late wife had the same symptoms after her second stroke, but I was told by her doctors that we could not know if she was conscious or not. There are also documented cases of coma patients who were deemed to be unconscious but were fully aware of what was going on around them.
It is clear, then, that all those NDEs that recount events going on around the patient mean that he/she is conscious. But as you say, nobody knows how. Maybe a dualistic “soul” is the answer. But if the cortex is not dead, and is active enough to be the “receiver”, it could also be the generator, and that would be the materialist view. However, in many cases of NDEs, the patient “returns” with information from outside the operating theatre, and I suggest that those are the experiences which cannot be explained by materialism. The article itself provides no evidence for dualism,

DAVID: Point 2 regards your wife and cases of coma; there is EEG activity from the cortex which is generally not normal in appearance. The cortex is alive to some degree. The 'locked in' state does describe a very special group of patients who are aware but do not or cannot communicate after the event that damaged their brain. This may persist for years, not the 20-40 minutes in prolonged resuscitations. For me NDE's prove dualism. The article refers to them.

This whole discussion began when I pointed out that the article itself did NOT provide any evidence for dualism. For some reason you have taken this as an attack on the concept of dualism as evidenced in NDEs. I can only repeat that the article does not go beyond patients’ awareness of conversations after the heart has stopped beating, and refers to “a burst of brain energy”, which you have said is irrelevant. I DO accept that information such as the hitherto unknown death of a relative may be regarded as evidence for dualism. I do NOT see how awareness of conversations taking place around a patient whose cortex is still alive but cannot manifest any function (akin to the “locked in” state of coma victims) can be regarded as evidence. Your comment on the article was: “consciousness survives brain death for a few minutes. It is obviously separate from the brain itself, and if so dualism is correct.” The article proves that consciousness survives heart death for a few minutes, but the cortex is NOT dead for a few minutes. I cannot see how this proves that consciousness is separate from the brain. Once more: I am commenting on the limitations of the article, not on NDEs in general.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Wednesday, November 01, 2017, 14:51 (2339 days ago) @ dhw

dhw:I can only repeat that the article does not go beyond patients’ awareness of conversations after the heart has stopped beating, and refers to “a burst of brain energy”, which you have said is irrelevant. I DO accept that information such as the hitherto unknown death of a relative may be regarded as evidence for dualism. I do NOT see how awareness of conversations taking place around a patient whose cortex is still alive but cannot manifest any function (akin to the “locked in” state of coma victims) can be regarded as evidence. Your comment on the article was: “consciousness survives brain death for a few minutes. It is obviously separate from the brain itself, and if so dualism is correct.” The article proves that consciousness survives heart death for a few minutes, but the cortex is NOT dead for a few minutes. I cannot see how this proves that consciousness is separate from the brain. Once more: I am commenting on the limitations of the article, not on NDEs in general.

The point you keep missing is the flat EEG during resuscitation. A flat EEG means the cortex is not functioning even if the neurons have not yet died.

New article on the subject, why the cortex is so sensitive to oxygen loss:

https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/brain-damage-mechanism-discovered

"A team from Maastricht University Medical Centre and Maastricht University, writing in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, has identified a single enzyme that is produced after oxygen deprivation which causes severe damage to tissues – but only in the brain.

"The enzyme, NOX4, is produced by several organs and muscles when they undergo oxygen deprivation, or hypoxia. However, in all these instances it is harmless.

"The Maastricht team, led by Harald Schmidt, discovered that NOX4 in the brain behaves very differently. As soon as it is produced it triggers the breakdown of cells at the blood-brain barrier. It also kicks off a self-destruct mechanism in neurons. Combined, these actions result in profound physical and mental damage.

"In experiments, Schmidt’s team found that if the NOX4 enzyme was eliminated – either by inhibiting it with drugs or removing the gene responsible for creating it – both the blood-brain barrier and neurons remained intact, and no brain damage resulted.

“'This discovery solves a long-standing mystery of the unique sensitivity of the brain to hypoxia,” says Schmidt.

"Understanding the role of NOX4 now presents new targets for post-stroke treatments and rehabilitation, he adds. "

Comment: Cortical neurons are non-functional within 20 seconds per flat EEG. Current medical evidence states that consciousness resides in those neurons, but consciousness is able to continue. How? Could there be deeper levels of brain activity to support consciousness? Some strange deeper EEG spikes have been seen sporadically, but are poorly understood. You have limited your comment about the cortex to four minutes, but resuscitations can go on for 40 minutes (I've been here) before recovery or death. Remember the van Lommel patient and the teeth, which were removed after the fellow was brought into the hospital (time not specified) and took 45 minutes to resuscitate. I still read the original study as supporting consciousness without a functional cortex, therefore evidence for dualism.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Thursday, November 02, 2017, 12:38 (2338 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw:I can only repeat that the article does not go beyond patients’ awareness of conversations after the heart has stopped beating, and refers to “a burst of brain energy”, which you have said is irrelevant. I DO accept that information such as the hitherto unknown death of a relative may be regarded as evidence for dualism. I do NOT see how awareness of conversations taking place around a patient whose cortex is still alive but cannot manifest any function (akin to the “locked in” state of coma victims) can be regarded as evidence. Your comment on the article was: “consciousness survives brain death for a few minutes. It is obviously separate from the brain itself, and if so dualism is correct.” The article proves that consciousness survives heart death for a few minutes, but the cortex is NOT dead for a few minutes. I cannot see how this proves that consciousness is separate from the brain. Once more: I am commenting on the limitations of the article, not on NDEs in general.

DAVID: The point you keep missing is the flat EEG during resuscitation. A flat EEG means the cortex is not functioning even if the neurons have not yet died.

See below.

DAVID: Cortical neurons are non-functional within 20 seconds per flat EEG. Current medical evidence states that consciousness resides in those neurons, but consciousness is able to continue. How? Could there be deeper levels of brain activity to support consciousness? Some strange deeper EEG spikes have been seen sporadically, but are poorly understood.

That is indeed the question (though a materialist would say “engender” rather than “support”), and your final comment may provide an answer.

DAVID: You have limited your comment about the cortex to four minutes, but resuscitations can go on for 40 minutes (I've been here) before recovery or death. Remember the van Lommel patient and the teeth, which were removed after the fellow was brought into the hospital (time not specified) and took 45 minutes to resuscitate. I still read the original study as supporting consciousness without a functional cortex, therefore evidence for dualism.

It was you who pinpointed the limitations of the article, as I quoted above: “consciousness survives brain death for a few minutes. It is obviously separate from the brain itself, and if so dualism is correct.” I am happy to go along with your own speculation: if the cortex is not dead, regardless of the time span, perhaps there are deeper levels of brain activity, and these would explain how patients can be aware of events going on around them (including the removal of the patient’s teeth). But they would NOT explain awareness of events such as a relative’s death a thousand miles away. THAT, as I keep repeating, is where you will find your evidence for dualism. Not in the extremely limited article that launched this discussion.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Thursday, November 02, 2017, 14:17 (2338 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: You have limited your comment about the cortex to four minutes, but resuscitations can go on for 40 minutes (I've been here) before recovery or death. Remember the van Lommel patient and the teeth, which were removed after the fellow was brought into the hospital (time not specified) and took 45 minutes to resuscitate. I still read the original study as supporting consciousness without a functional cortex, therefore evidence for dualism.

dhw: It was you who pinpointed the limitations of the article, as I quoted above: “consciousness survives brain death for a few minutes. It is obviously separate from the brain itself, and if so dualism is correct.” I am happy to go along with your own speculation: if the cortex is not dead, regardless of the time span, perhaps there are deeper levels of brain activity, and these would explain how patients can be aware of events going on around them (including the removal of the patient’s teeth). But they would NOT explain awareness of events such as a relative’s death a thousand miles away. THAT, as I keep repeating, is where you will find your evidence for dualism. Not in the extremely limited article that launched this discussion.

I'll repeat Parnia:

"Medical staff confirm this, he said. So how could those who were technically dead be cognizant of what’s happening around them? Even after our breathing and heartbeat stops, we’re conscious for about 2-20 seconds, Dr. Parnia says. That’s how long the cerebral cortex is thought to last without oxygen. This is the thinking and decision-making part of the brain. It’s also responsible for deciphering the information gathered from our senses.

"According to Parnia during this period, "You lose all your brain stem reflexes — your gag reflex, your pupil reflex, all that is gone." Brain waves from the cerebral cortex soon become undetectable. Even so, it can take hours for our thinking organ to fully shut down.

"Usually, when the heart stops beating, someone performs CPR (cardiopulmonary resuscitation). This will provide about 15% of the oxygen needed to perform normal brain function. "If you manage to restart the heart, which is what CPR attempts to do, you'll gradually start to get the brain functioning again,” Parnia said. “The longer you're doing CPR, those brain cell death pathways are still happening — they're just happening at a slightly slower rate.'"

http://bigthink.com/philip-perry/after-death-youre-aware-that-youve-died-scientists-cla...

For me case closed. Until you get full cardiac function there is coma. Yet patients report experiences. All resuscitation does is limit cell death. Your comment about learning of unknown facts is a stronger example I admit.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Friday, November 03, 2017, 13:59 (2337 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I'll repeat Parnia:
http://bigthink.com/philip-perry/after-death-youre-aware-that-youve-died-scientists-cla...

This is not the article you posted on 23 October, and the new one contains information that was not in the first one, which was: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/mind-works-after-death-consciousness-sam-parn...

You asked me to reread it, and on 25 October I wrote: "I can’t get the whole article, so I am relying on what you posted. The only experiences recounted in the article are of events taking place in the presence of the patient, and the article is absolutely explicit that during these few minutes the brain is ACTIVE." You told me: “I gave you the entire article”.
My complaint was that the original article contained no evidence for dualism. However, even the new article confines itself to events happening around the patient, and the fact that patients cannot communicate or control their bodies does not mean they are unconscious. The new article states: “Brain waves from the cerebral cortex soon become undetectable. Even so, it can take hours for our thinking organ to fully shut down.” In your earlier post you wrote: “Could there be deeper levels of brain activity to support consciousness? Some strange deeper EEG spikes have been seen sporadically, but are poorly understood.” Perhaps when we understand them better, we shall find that the cortex, our “thinking organ”, is still absorbing information.

DAVID’S comment: For me case closed. Until you get full cardiac function there is coma. Yet patients report experiences. All resuscitation does is limit cell death. Your comment about learning of unknown facts is a stronger example I admit.

As you have said, some coma patients who have recovered even years later report that they were fully aware of events going on around them. Once again: There is no reason to assume that the inability to communicate and to control the body after cardiac arrest or reduced function means that the still living cortex is unable to perceive and think. Awareness of events within the patient’s area of perception will therefore only provide evidence for dualism if it can be proved that the cortex is incapable of awareness and thought under the conditions described.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Friday, November 03, 2017, 20:25 (2337 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: My complaint was that the original article contained no evidence for dualism. However, even the new article confines itself to events happening around the patient, and the fact that patients cannot communicate or control their bodies does not mean they are unconscious. The new article states: “Brain waves from the cerebral cortex soon become undetectable. Even so, it can take hours for our thinking organ to fully shut down.”

The 'soon become undetectable' is 4-20 seconds. Please accept that short time. The cortex is NO LONGER functional. The nonfunctioning cells die in 4-6 minutes if no resuscitation.


DAVID’S comment: For me case closed. Until you get full cardiac function there is coma. Yet patients report experiences. All resuscitation does is limit cell death. Your comment about learning of unknown facts is a stronger example I admit.

dhw: As you have said, some coma patients who have recovered even years later report that they were fully aware of events going on around them. Once again: There is no reason to assume that the inability to communicate and to control the body after cardiac arrest or reduced function means that the still living cortex is unable to perceive and think.

This is locked-in syndrome with a damaged but living and functional cortex. Not an example you can use!

dhw: Awareness of events within the patient’s area of perception will therefore only provide evidence for dualism if it can be proved that the cortex is incapable of awareness and thought under the conditions described.

In clinical death the cortex is not functional. Again Parnia, first article:

"Dr Sam Parnia said: “Technically, that's how you get the time of death – it's all based on the moment when the heart stops.
“Once that happens, blood no longer circulates to the brain, which means brain function halts almost instantaneously.
“You lose all your brain stem reflexes – your gag reflex, your pupil reflex, all that is gone.”
However, there’s evidence to suggest that there’s a burst of brain energy as someone dies."

Comment: Which is brief!

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Saturday, November 04, 2017, 13:25 (2336 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: My complaint was that the original article contained no evidence for dualism. However, even the new article confines itself to events happening around the patient, and the fact that patients cannot communicate or control their bodies does not mean they are unconscious. The new article states: “Brain waves from the cerebral cortex soon become undetectable. Even so, it can take hours for our thinking organ to fully shut down.”

DAVID: The 'soon become undetectable' is 4-20 seconds. Please accept that short time. The cortex is NO LONGER functional. The nonfunctioning cells die in 4-6 minutes if no resuscitation.

“No longer functional” is not the same as “dead”. You keep emphasizing function and the short time before the cells die. I keep emphasizing that the cortex of these patients does NOT die, and function is not necessarily confined to the outward signs (reflexes etc.). I used coma patients as an example of no outward signs and no communication and yet the patient is aware. If the cortex cells are NOT dead (and all these NDE patients have been resuscitated before the cells could die), and if patients are aware of events happening around them, this can just as easily be considered evidence that the cells are the source of consciousness as that there is a “soul” which exists independently of the cortex. The evidence for the separate “soul” would only be there (a) if the cortex had actually died, and (b) if the patients could describe events outside the operating theatre. I note you have ignored the following:

dhw: In your earlier post you wrote: “Could there be deeper levels of brain activity to support consciousness? Some strange deeper EEG spikes have been seen sporadically, but are poorly understood.” And I commented: Perhaps when we understand them better, we shall find that the cortex, our “thinking organ”, is still absorbing information.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Saturday, November 04, 2017, 15:20 (2336 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: The 'soon become undetectable' is 4-20 seconds. Please accept that short time. The cortex is NO LONGER functional. The nonfunctioning cells die in 4-6 minutes if no resuscitation.

dhw: “No longer functional” is not the same as “dead”. You keep emphasizing function and the short time before the cells die. I keep emphasizing that the cortex of these patients does NOT die, and function is not necessarily confined to the outward signs (reflexes etc.).

Function is also represented by the flat EEG, for which you have no answer. Medical science at this time states a flat line means no function. You suggestion is a possibility for which there is no current evidence.

dhw:I used coma patients as an example of no outward signs and no communication and yet the patient is aware. If the cortex cells are NOT dead (and all these NDE patients have been resuscitated before the cells could die), and if patients are aware of events happening around them, this can just as easily be considered evidence that the cells are the source of consciousness as that there is a “soul” which exists independently of the cortex.

These are locked-in patients. They have an active EEG. These are not patients during a resuscitation with a flat EEG. Doctors have a problem trying to determine the patients' degree of awareness. They do not fit your theorizing.

dhw: The evidence for the separate “soul” would only be there (a) if the cortex had actually died, and (b) if the patients could describe events outside the operating theatre.

Unfortunately if the cortex is dead, the patient is by definition brain-dead. All one can do to benefit the situation is turn off life support to stop a living dead situation. Unfortunately, life support can continue keeping the body alive for years, not a good outcome from an emotional and monetary viewpoint.

dhw:I note you have ignored the following:

dhw: In your earlier post you wrote: “Could there be deeper levels of brain activity to support consciousness? Some strange deeper EEG spikes have been seen sporadically, but are poorly understood.” And I commented: Perhaps when we understand them better, we shall find that the cortex, our “thinking organ”, is still absorbing information.

I presented that information to be complete. Neurons make EEG activity. Most of the mass of the brain beneath the cortex is fat insulating a mass of fiber connections. Neurons are present in the cerebellum which coordinates various activities, the olfactory bulb for odors, the hippocampus which it is thought coordinates memory, etc. None of these are considered a part of awareness. The spikes may come from one of those areas. Your comment above does not fit any of the facts we have about the brain. If the EEG is flat the cortex is not working. You keep trying to find some exception to that. My training in the subject is 40-50 years older than Parnia and his current research, and he is writing the same facts I know. Nothing has changed. While you struggle to poke holes.

Resuscitation research started in 1955 at the hospital where I was training. I've had courses in it and experience. Nothing has changed in all that time regarding medial teaching about the cortex and EEG's. This is why books have appeared by MD's (many reviewed in my first book) wondering why consciousness appears to survive a nonfunctional cortex. We have full knowledge of cortical function in a reversed way: cortically damaged patients lose part of their mental/conscious capacities. They can not conceptualized normally. Yes, they have consciousness, but their IQ is reduced.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Sunday, November 05, 2017, 13:34 (2335 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The 'soon become undetectable' is 4-20 seconds. Please accept that short time. The cortex is NO LONGER functional. The nonfunctioning cells die in 4-6 minutes if no resuscitation.
dhw: “No longer functional” is not the same as “dead”. You keep emphasizing function and the short time before the cells die. I keep emphasizing that the cortex of these patients does NOT die, and function is not necessarily confined to the outward signs (reflexes etc.).
DAVID: Function is also represented by the flat EEG, for which you have no answer. Medical science at this time states a flat line means no function. Your suggestion is a possibility for which there is no current evidence.

All my comments concern the "evidence" being presented by Parnia and by you, and I can only comment on the logic of your conclusions as based on that evidence. We have a mystery: despite the “flat EEG”, some patients are conscious of events going on around them. Medical science “at this time” offers NO solution. Here are two possibilities:

1) that the cortex, which has not died, may still be conscious though outwardly non-functional. Of course this suggestion is “a possibility for which there is no current evidence”. You say Parnia’s “burst of energy” is irrelevant, so I don’t know why he makes such a big thing of it. But you also say: “Some strange deeper EEG spikes have been seen sporadically, but are poorly understood.” Now you tell me these spikes may come from areas that are not considered a part of awareness. “May” is the operative word. Maybe they don’t come from there, or maybe those areas ARE part of awareness. “At this time” we don’t know.

2) that consciousness exists independently of the cortex in the form of a “soul” which survives the death of the body. This suggestion is a possibility for which Parnia’s articles and medical science “at this time” provide no evidence. According to you: “We have full knowledge of cortical function in a reversed way: cortically damaged patients lose part of their mental/conscious capacities.” Hardly full if "at this time" there are questions concerning the cortex which we can't answer. But in any case the materialist can say this knowledge provides evidence that the cortex is the source of mental/conscious capacities.

I am not, however, arguing for dualism or for materialism. I am merely pointing out that Parnia’s articles do not provide evidence that we have a “soul” which survives death, since BOTH suggested unproven hypotheses would solve the mystery he has set us. But I stand by my argument that the materialist solution does NOT solve the mystery of information acquired about events that take place outside the operating theatre. Parnia’s articles make no mention of these.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Sunday, November 05, 2017, 15:00 (2335 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Function is also represented by the flat EEG, for which you have no answer. Medical science at this time states a flat line means no function. Your suggestion is a possibility for which there is no current evidence.

dhw: All my comments concern the "evidence" being presented by Parnia and by you, and I can only comment on the logic of your conclusions as based on that evidence. We have a mystery: despite the “flat EEG”, some patients are conscious of events going on around them. Medical science “at this time” offers NO solution. Here are two possibilities:

1) that the cortex, which has not died, may still be conscious though outwardly non-functional. Of course this suggestion is “a possibility for which there is no current evidence”. You say Parnia’s “burst of energy” is irrelevant, so I don’t know why he makes such a big thing of it. But you also say: “Some strange deeper EEG spikes have been seen sporadically, but are poorly understood.” Now you tell me these spikes may come from areas that are not considered a part of awareness. “May” is the operative word. Maybe they don’t come from there, or maybe those areas ARE part of awareness. “At this time” we don’t know.

2) that consciousness exists independently of the cortex in the form of a “soul” which survives the death of the body. This suggestion is a possibility for which Parnia’s articles and medical science “at this time” provide no evidence. According to you: “We have full knowledge of cortical function in a reversed way: cortically damaged patients lose part of their mental/conscious capacities.” Hardly full if "at this time" there are questions concerning the cortex which we can't answer. But in any case the materialist can say this knowledge provides evidence that the cortex is the source of mental/conscious capacities.

I am not, however, arguing for dualism or for materialism. I am merely pointing out that Parnia’s articles do not provide evidence that we have a “soul” which survives death, since BOTH suggested unproven hypotheses would solve the mystery he has set us. But I stand by my argument that the materialist solution does NOT solve the mystery of information acquired about events that take place outside the operating theatre. Parnia’s articles make no mention of these.

Parnia has concentrated on operating room events. I think he was more surprised at the brief burst of energy, since it was previously unknown. But brief doesn't cover up to 45 minutes of resuscitation which is protecting cortical life with the cells alive but non-unctional. Your overall analysis is correct, especially including information learned by the patient while in an NDE that they had not known before the NDE.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Monday, November 06, 2017, 12:53 (2334 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I am not, however, arguing for dualism or for materialism. I am merely pointing out that Parnia’s articles do not provide evidence that we have a “soul” which survives death, since BOTH suggested unproven hypotheses would solve the mystery he has set us. But I stand by my argument that the materialist solution does NOT solve the mystery of information acquired about events that take place outside the operating theatre. Parnia’s articles make no mention of these.

DAVID: Parnia has concentrated on operating room events. I think he was more surprised at the brief burst of energy, since it was previously unknown. But brief doesn't cover up to 45 minutes of resuscitation which is protecting cortical life with the cells alive but non-functional. Your overall analysis is correct, especially including information learned by the patient while in an NDE that they had not known before the NDE.

Thank you.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Monday, November 06, 2017, 14:56 (2334 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I am not, however, arguing for dualism or for materialism. I am merely pointing out that Parnia’s articles do not provide evidence that we have a “soul” which survives death, since BOTH suggested unproven hypotheses would solve the mystery he has set us. But I stand by my argument that the materialist solution does NOT solve the mystery of information acquired about events that take place outside the operating theatre. Parnia’s articles make no mention of these.

DAVID: Parnia has concentrated on operating room events. I think he was more surprised at the brief burst of energy, since it was previously unknown. But brief doesn't cover up to 45 minutes of resuscitation which is protecting cortical life with the cells alive but non-functional. Your overall analysis is correct, especially including information learned by the patient while in an NDE that they had not known before the NDE.

dhw: Thank you.

You are welcome.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Wednesday, January 11, 2023, 22:27 (442 days ago) @ David Turell

The latest from Sam Parnia:

https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/970272

"One in five people who survive cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) after cardiac arrest may describe lucid experiences of death that occurred while they were seemingly unconscious and on the brink of death, a new study shows.

"Led by researchers at NYU Grossman School of Medicine and elsewhere, the study involved 567 men and women whose hearts stopped beating while hospitalized and who received CPR between May 2017 and March 2020 in the United States and United Kingdom. Despite immediate treatment, fewer than 10% recovered sufficiently to be discharged from hospital.

"Survivors reported having unique lucid experiences, including a perception of separation from the body, observing events without pain or distress, and a meaningful evaluation of life, including of their actions, intentions and thoughts toward others. The researchers found these experiences of death to be different from hallucinations, delusions, illusions, dreams or CPR-induced consciousness.

"The work also included tests for hidden brain activity. A key finding was the discovery of spikes of brain activity, including so-called gamma, delta, theta, alpha and beta waves up to an hour into CPR. Some of these brain waves normally occur when people are conscious and performing higher mental functions, including thinking, memory retrieval, and conscious perception.

“'These recalled experiences and brain wave changes may be the first signs of the so-called near-death experience, and we have captured them for the first time in a large study,” says Sam Parnia, MD, PhD, the lead study investigator and an intensive care physician, who is also an associate professor in the Department of Medicine at NYU Langone Health, as well as the organization’s director of critical care and resuscitation research.“Our results offer evidence that while on the brink of death and in a coma, people undergo a unique inner conscious experience, including awareness without distress.”

"Identifying measureable electrical signs of lucid and heightened brain activity, together with similar stories of recalled death experiences, suggests that the human sense of self and consciousness, much like other biological body functions, may not stop completely around the time of death, adds Parnia.

“'These lucid experiences cannot be considered a trick of a disordered or dying brain, but rather a unique human experience that emerges on the brink death,” says Parnia. As the brain is shutting down, many of its natural braking systems are released. Known as disinhibition, this provides access to the depths of a person’s consciousness, including stored memories, thoughts from early childhood to death, and other aspects of reality. While no one knows the evolutionary purpose of this phenomenon, it clearly reveals “intriguing questions about human consciousness, even at death," says Parnia.

"The study authors conclude that although studies to date have not been able to absolutely prove the reality or meaning of patients’ experiences and claims of awareness in relation to death, it has been impossible to disclaim them either. They say recalled experience surrounding death now merits further genuine empirical investigation without prejudice."

Comment: this study shows the brain's near-death activity that can then explain the experiences recounted by the resuscitated survivors. It does not explain how some of the patients learned of new information they had had no access to before the NDE, as described in many papers. Does the NDE state allow the brain to attach itself to some immaterial consciousness state where information is available? Is consciousness, itself, a separate form of a real immaterial level of reality?

near to death episodes: a book on the subject

by David Turell @, Tuesday, October 17, 2023, 04:47 (163 days ago) @ David Turell

An older study:

https://evolutionnews.org/2023/10/are-near-death-experiences-science-now/

"Sometimes the experiencer recounts apparent trivia:

"A nurse, on her first day back at work after vacation, was a member of the medical team that successfully resuscitated a female patient whom she did not know:
The very next day she saw the patient, who responded, “Oh, you’re the one with the plaid shoelaces!” and explained that she observed them while watching the resuscitation from overhead. Intriguingly, Harmon had just purchased the plaid shoelaces while on her vacation and had worn them to the hospital that day for the very first time. Though casual or mundane conversations by staff often occur in hospital settings, even during stressful times, the color of shoelaces does not appear to be a topic that would be likely be discussed or even noticed during a frantic resuscitation attempt.

"PP. 326–27 REF: KENNETH RING AND MADELAINE LAWRENCE, “FURTHER EVIDENCE FOR VERIDICAL PERCEPTION DURING NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES,” JOURNAL OF NEAR-DEATH STUDIES, 11 (1993): 223–229

"Psychiatrist Bruce Greyson first became interested in NDEs (near-death experiences) in a similar situation. An NDE experiencer noticed, in an out-of-body experience, a spaghetti stain on his tie, which he had successfully concealed from colleagues.

"Yet sometimes, the message the NDE experiencer offers is not trivial at all:
A young nine-year-old boy named Eddie was seriously ill in a hospital. Recovering from a thirty-six-hour fever, Eddie immediately told those in the hospital room that he had been to heaven, recounting seeing his grandfather, an aunt, and an uncle there. But then his startled and agitated father heard Eddie report that his nineteen-year-old sister Teresa, away at college, was in heaven too, and she told Eddie that he had to return. But the father had just spoken to Teresa two days prior. Checking with the college, the father found out that his daughter had been killed in a car accident the previous day.

"P. 331 BRUCE GREYSON, “SEEING DEAD PEOPLE NOT KNOWN TO HAVE DIED: ‘PEAK IN DARIEN’ EXPERIENCES,” ANTHROPOLOGY AND HUMANISM, 35 (2010): 159–171. P. 167 THE PAPER IS OPEN ACCESS

"The college had been unable to reach Teresa’s parents, probably because they were with Eddie. While near-death experiencers sometimes meet persons who were not known to have died, they rarely meet anyone who is alive in this world.

"These sorts of cases are not as rare as we might suppose, Habermas notes. There are many other solid ones.

"What to make of it all? Two things to start with: First, from time immemorial, there were stories, now and then, of a person who apparently died, saw the unseen world, and came back to tell about it. Carol Zaleski wrote a valuable book, Otherworld Journeys (Oxford University Press, 1987), collecting such stories from many genres. But how should we understand them? Are they divine truth? Pious fiction? Narcissistic fantasy?

"Who knows? Each interpretation comes with problems. If it’s divine truth, what about the cultural differences? If it is pious fiction, what about the knowledge (veridical experiences) gained while apparently dead? If it is fantasy, why all the life-changing experiences?"

Comment: facts like been have been n=reported here before: What is most special is the second one of the dead sister: No way of knowing this except through the NDE, which validates the episode as real and substantive. There are thousands of these validations. Read Greyson's book and be convinced. Dead brain, active consciousness episode!!! The first episode is out-of-the-body: common and not as convincing but lots more common. A patient of mine told me of hers during surgery.

near to death episodes: a movie on the subject

by David Turell @, Wednesday, October 18, 2023, 18:59 (162 days ago) @ David Turell

Coming out soon:

https://evolutionnews.org/2023/10/after-death-a-riveting-glimpse-of-the-hereafter/

"The message of the film, by directors Stephen Gray and Chris Radtke, is extremely well conveyed. It’s beautifully photographed, produced, and enacted, making use of actors and ordinary people who describe what they say happened to them while briefly dead, before being revived in a medical setting. No small number have died, only to be brought back thanks to advances in healing unknown to past generations. Of these, some number offer reports of an otherworldly realm, beyond yet somehow connected to our own. For those who go and come back, there is both joy and grief. Make of it what you will.

***

"The “dead” person may see the room or other locale where he lies and observe actions by others going on around him. This is “autoscopy” — seeing yourself from outside, and reports of it have in some cases been objectively verified. More subjective (perhaps) are accounts of travel to a heavenly realm to meet loved ones who have passed on, and to meet God. Disturbingly, according to the film, 23 percent of near-death experiences (NDEs) are not of heaven but of hell. “One of the scariest moments in my life,” says one man. (Only “one of”?) “A pit of despair and hopelessness,” says another.

"The interviews are fascinating. The subjects describe being, while dead, “more alive than I’ve ever felt,” ““conscious and then more conscious,” immersed in “an ocean of love.” Some are anguished to realize they’ve been returned to our earthly existence, from their true home, against their will. Nor is everyone who comes back necessarily improved by the experience, at least not at first. A man who died with his life disordered felt he went down to hell, then was rescued by Jesus. He wished to share what he learned with others but became, in his own words, a “zealot” who alienated everyone around him. A neurosurgeon recalls talking with a patient who, after being medically dead, recounted details of her autoscopic experience. “As she spoke,” says the surgeon, “I became spooked.” That makes two of us.

"The filmmakers plainly wish to give hope for the hereafter, and no doubt with many viewers, they will succeed. But After Death is not a simple vehicle for that. Parts of it are scary and disturbing. While generally appearing to reflect a Christian perspective, the theology here, insofar as it’s articulated, doesn’t clearly match any one recognizable religion. The heavenly imperative seems to be, above all, that humans in their lifetime on Earth should love each other. That makes sense to me, but I’m not sure that it’s an orthodox view, or more of a modern one. Being modern doesn’t mean it’s not true. It’s suggested, also, that these experiences are cross-cultural. It would be interesting to know what people outside the American context report.

"One could ask other questions, like why is the information imparted here, while pertaining to ultimate matters, conditioned on something wholly worldly like advances in life-saving medical techniques? And if God is love, indeed an “ocean of love,” and if that figure of 23 percent is meaningful, how can it be that he sends approximately one quarter of humans to hell?"

Comment: the issue of hell makes this film strongly from a Christian perspective. But worldwide studies have shown the NDE is always colored by one's religious background. NDE's are not exclusive to a Christian bias.

near to death episodes: latest essay offers no answers

by David Turell @, Wednesday, May 20, 2020, 20:21 (1408 days ago) @ dhw

A long well-presented review from a strictly scientific point of view has no answers as to what they really are:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-near-death-experiences-reveal-about-the...

"Near-death experiences, or NDEs, are triggered during singular life-threatening episodes when the body is injured by blunt trauma, a heart attack, asphyxia, shock, and so on. About one in 10 patients with cardiac arrest in a hospital setting undergoes such an episode. Thousands of survivors of these harrowing touch-and-go situations tell of leaving their damaged bodies behind and encountering a realm beyond everyday existence, unconstrained by the usual boundaries of space and time. These powerful, mystical experiences can lead to permanent transformation of their lives.

"NDEs are not fancy flights of the imagination. They share broad commonalities—becoming pain-free, seeing a bright light at the end of a tunnel and other visual phenomena, detaching from one’s body and floating above it, or even flying off into space (out-of-body experiences). They might include meeting loved ones, living or dead, or spiritual beings such as angels; a Proustian recollection or even review of lifetime memories, both good and bad (“my life flashed in front of my eyes”); or a distorted sense of time and space. There are some underlying physiological explanations for these perceptions, such as progressively narrowing tunnel vision. Reduced blood flow to the visual periphery of the retina means vision loss occurs there first.

"NDEs can be either positive or negative experiences. The former receive all the press and relate to the feeling of an overwhelming presence, something numinous, divine. A jarring disconnect separates the massive trauma to the body and the peacefulness and feeling of oneness with the universe. Yet not all NDEs are blissful—some can be frightening, marked by intense terror, anguish, loneliness and despair.

***

"A 2017 study by two researchers at the University of Virginia raised the question of whether the paradox of enhanced cognition occurring alongside compromised brain function during an NDE could be written off as a flight of imagination. The researchers administered a questionnaire to 122 people who reported NDEs. They asked them to compare memories of their experiences with those of both real and imagined events from about the same time. The results suggest that the NDEs were recalled with greater vividness and detail than either real or imagined situations were. In short, the NDEs were remembered as being “realer than real.”

***

"I accept the reality of these intensely felt experiences. They are as authentic as any other subjective feeling or perception. As a scientist, however, I operate under the hypothesis that all our thoughts, memories, percepts and experiences are an ineluctable consequence of the natural causal powers of our brain rather than of any supernatural ones. That premise has served science and its handmaiden, technology, extremely well over the past few centuries. Unless there is extraordinary, compelling, objective evidence to the contrary, I see no reason to abandon this assumption.

***

"Why the mind should experience the struggle to sustain its operations in the face of loss of blood flow and oxygen as positive and blissful rather than as panic-inducing remains mysterious. It is intriguing, though, that the outer limit of the spectrum of human experience encompasses other occasions in which reduced oxygen causes pleasurable feelings of jauntiness, light-headedness and heightened arousal—deepwater diving, high-altitude climbing, flying, the choking or fainting game, and sexual asphyxiation.

"Perhaps such ecstatic experiences are common to many forms of death as long as the mind remains lucid and is not dulled by opiates or other drugs given to alleviate pain. The mind, chained to a dying body, visits its own private version of heaven or hell before entering Hamlet’s “undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveler returns.”

Comment: Wedded to pure science, he sees no known cause. He ignores events that confirm these episodes when patients find out facts they cannot have know in advance of the episode.

near to death episodes: latest essay offers no answers

by dhw, Thursday, May 21, 2020, 14:15 (1407 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Wedded to pure science, he sees no known cause. He ignores events that confirm these episodes when patients find out facts they cannot have know in advance of the episode.

On this subject, you and I are in complete agreement. The latter episodes are crucial, and it is these plus other “psychic” experiences that join design as my basic arguments against atheism. I don’t need to repeat my arguments against theism.

Thank you all the other posts, mainly devoted to the complexities that support design. Fair enough!

near to death episodes: the paranormal exists

by David Turell @, Friday, May 22, 2020, 21:34 (1406 days ago) @ dhw

How it relates to NDE's is not known, but there does seem to be another layer of mental activity that can cross many years or distance before surfacing:

https://notendur.hi.is/erlendur/english/mediums/Perfect%20case.pdf

Abstract

"At a séance with Indridi Indridason in Reykjavik on November 24th 1905 a Danish communicator appeared who gave his name as ‘Jensen’ and his profession as a ‘manufacturer’. He described a fire that had broken out in a factory in Copenhagen. About an hour later he said that the fire had been brought under control. A written account was deposited with the Bishop of Iceland. There was no telephone or telegraph communication with Iceland in 1905 and news arrived by ship near Christmas that a fire had indeed broken out on November 24th in a factory at Store Kongensgade 63, and was brought under control in an hour as had been stated at the séance. Minute books were kept of Indridason’s séances which took place from 1904 to 1909. They had been lost for over half a century when two of them turned up a few years ago. According to them on December 11th 1905 the communicator revealed his name to be Emil Jensen, claimed that he was unmarried and had no children, had died when ‘not so young’, and had brothers and sisters who were all still living. No attempt was made to trace manufacturer Jensen until the author did so in 2009. A search by the author in archives in Denmark revealed the existence of a person named Emil Jensen who had been a manufacturer and had lived most of his life on Store Kongensgade where the fire broke out. Everything that the communicator had stated about himself in 1905 was thus verified over a century after the sittings took place. This case has a striking similarity to the famous case of Emanuel Swedenborg, who described while in Gothenburg in 1759 a fire that raged near his home in Stockholm."

Comment: I have described some of my wife's similar abilities here. She has, in the past, identified by name dead ancestors, she had never met in life, from old photos. Her explanation is that she had met them in dreams! I have also noted she has 'seen ' current events at the exact time they occurred, then confirmed on television. The point is there is a level of mental activity that only some of us are privy to,

near to death episodes: the paranormal exists

by dhw, Saturday, May 23, 2020, 11:41 (1405 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: How it relates to NDE's is not known, but there does seem to be another layer of mental activity that can cross many years or distance before surfacing:
https://notendur.hi.is/erlendur/english/mediums/Perfect%20case.pdf

DAVID: I have described some of my wife's similar abilities here. She has, in the past, identified by name dead ancestors, she had never met in life, from old photos. Her explanation is that she had met them in dreams! I have also noted she has 'seen ' current events at the exact time they occurred, then confirmed on television. The point is there is a level of mental activity that only some of us are privy to.

Thank you once more for sharing this. I remember too some of the experiences BBella told us about, and within my own family and circle of friends, there have been plenty more. They play a very important part in my own balancing act as I sit on my fence!

near to death episodes: the paranormal exists

by David Turell @, Saturday, May 23, 2020, 21:10 (1405 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: How it relates to NDE's is not known, but there does seem to be another layer of mental activity that can cross many years or distance before surfacing:
https://notendur.hi.is/erlendur/english/mediums/Perfect%20case.pdf

DAVID: I have described some of my wife's similar abilities here. She has, in the past, identified by name dead ancestors, she had never met in life, from old photos. Her explanation is that she had met them in dreams! I have also noted she has 'seen ' current events at the exact time they occurred, then confirmed on television. The point is there is a level of mental activity that only some of us are privy to.

dhw: Thank you once more for sharing this. I remember too some of the experiences BBella told us about, and within my own family and circle of friends, there have been plenty more. They play a very important part in my own balancing act as I sit on my fence!

I know you wont leave. I don't think its can't.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 19:13 (1569 days ago) @ David Turell

With so many evidence mounts:

https://mindmatters.ai/2019/12/what-if-a-near-death-experience-is-a-vision-of-hell/

"Thanks to modern medical interventions, the experiences are not even rare:
Up to 25 per cent of people who almost die report a near-death experience. These usually involve sensations of zooming through a tunnel towards a light. Many also feature replays of the person’s life and reunions with dead loved ones.

***

"We are told by the International Association for Near Death Studies, Inc. that most near-death experiences (NDEs) recorded in the literature are “dominated by pleasurable feelings such as peace, joy, and bliss.” The distressing ones, by contrast, have been described as “dominated by distressing, emotionally painful feelings such as fear, terror, horror, anger, loneliness, isolation, and/or guilt”. One researcher classifies as many as 15 percent of NDEs as hellish.

***

"Bruce Greyson and Bush studied fifty reports of distressing NDEs, including “an acute awareness of nonexistence or of being completely alone forever in an absolute void. Sometimes the person received a totally convincing message that the real world including themselves never really existed.” A few such reported experiences have included hellish imagery. Some also included a sense of personal torment or negative judgment.

"These experiences can be mapped onto specific psychological or religious templates but here are some general observations from the literature:
Distressing NDEs are comparatively rare and individual examples may not necessarily form a pattern:
As a result, what we know about frightening NDEs must be considered less certain than virtually any other aspect of NDEs.

***

"People who had a distressing experience may be proportionately less likely to report it than people who had a pleasurable experience.

"It is often difficult for NDErs who had a pleasant experience to share their NDEs. It is understandable how hesitant an NDEr might be to share an experience that was frightening, or even terrifying. NDErs experiencing hellish NDEs are likely aware that they risk inviting negative judgments from others due to the content of their NDEs.

***

"Prior studies of frightening and hellish NDEs have established that it is wrong to assume that ‘good people’ have pleasant NDEs and ‘bad people’ have hellish NDEs. In spite of the findings of these prior studies, this erroneous stereotype persists. This stereotype could greatly limit the desire of those experiencing hellish NDEs to share them.

***

"It’s remarkable that one single experience can have such a profound, long-lasting, transformational effect. This is illustrated by research showing that people who have near-death experiences following suicide attempts very rarely attempt suicide again. This is in stark contrast to the normal pattern—in fact, a previous suicide attempt is usually the strongest predictor of actual suicide.

"Survivors often believe they have been to another realm. They lose all fear of death and become convinced that some aspect of their consciousness will survive it – although they struggle to say what, falling back on vague notions such as spirit and soul. Even people who were convinced that death is final often come back from a brush with it as believers in an afterlife."

Comment: Still fascinating. Afterlife may be real and many of these episodes, like Eben Alexander's amazing book.

near to death episodes: latest study

by dhw, Thursday, December 12, 2019, 08:58 (1568 days ago) @ David Turell

QUOTE: Up to 25 per cent of people who almost die report a near-death experience. These usually involve sensations of zooming through a tunnel towards a light. Many also feature replays of the person’s life and reunions with dead loved ones.

Nothing new here. One can’t help wondering why up to 75% of such people do not have this experience, but I agree with David that the whole subject is fascinating. The quotes do not mention what for me is the most crucial factor of all, which is those occasions when the patient returns with information he or she could not possibly have had prior to the experience. These are the examples that appear to provide evidence that goes beyond the realms of subjectivity.

near to death episodes: latest study

by David Turell @, Thursday, December 12, 2019, 19:30 (1568 days ago) @ dhw

QUOTE: Up to 25 per cent of people who almost die report a near-death experience. These usually involve sensations of zooming through a tunnel towards a light. Many also feature replays of the person’s life and reunions with dead loved ones.

dhw: Nothing new here. One can’t help wondering why up to 75% of such people do not have this experience, but I agree with David that the whole subject is fascinating. The quotes do not mention what for me is the most crucial factor of all, which is those occasions when the patient returns with information he or she could not possibly have had prior to the experience. These are the examples that appear to provide evidence that goes beyond the realms of subjectivity.

Agreed.

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