What science does not do (Agnosticism)

by romansh ⌂ @, Saturday, December 18, 2010, 16:53 (4871 days ago)

David T wrote: Science and religion both attempt to give us answers.-I too used to believe science tried to give us answers - and I suspect a great many still do.-After a few years of introspection I think science attempts to give us better descriptions, allowing us to discard false descriptions. Now some I think would still interpret this as giving us answers; if so, so be it.

What science does not do

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Saturday, December 18, 2010, 17:50 (4871 days ago) @ romansh

All of the sciences, and I include math, history, physical science, biology, psychology, anthropology, religion and philosophy and many others try to give us answers. In many ways they are all trying to answer the same questions from different perspectives. It would be more productive perhaps, though, if they would all figure out that they are all asking the same questions and work together instead of playing the 'My thing is bigger than yours" game.

What science does not do

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Saturday, December 18, 2010, 19:29 (4871 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

It all used to be called "philosophy", love of knowledge.
I still tend to think of knowledge as all of a piece.

--
GPJ

What science does not do

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Monday, December 20, 2010, 11:44 (4869 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

I fail to see how my practice of solving a combinatorial equation has any bearing at all on ethics or morality... so I can't buy the idea that 'all endeavors try to answer the same question.' -The same for functional analysis or number theory.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

What science does not do

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Monday, December 20, 2010, 13:21 (4869 days ago) @ xeno6696

I fail to see how my practice of solving a combinatorial equation has any bearing at all on ethics or morality... so I can't buy the idea that 'all endeavors try to answer the same question.' 
> 
> The same for functional analysis or number theory.-Mathematics is a tool that is applied to many fields, not just pure mathematics. It is used in everything from physics to religion to ethics..(if you don't believe that just ask the last graduate who applied for a job and was turned down to meet a quota derived by superficial reduction of populace to ethnic percentage rates which were then in turn applied to 'ethical' hiring standards. I certainly did not mean the statement to be linear. Unless your are Douglas Adams, the meaning of life is not 42.

What science does not do

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Monday, December 20, 2010, 14:55 (4869 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

All of the sciences, and I include math, history, physical science, biology, psychology, anthropology, religion and philosophy and many others try to give us answers. In many ways they are all trying to answer the same questions from different perspectives. It would be more productive perhaps, though, if they would all figure out that they are all asking the same questions and work together instead of playing the 'My thing is bigger than yours" game.-I find it best to repost your words here in order that we may clarify my reponse. -The purpose, focus, and intent of the answers provided by the sciences is absolutely and necessarily narrow. You flat out say here that they should 'all figure out that they are all asking the same questions.' I have to assume you mean the philosophical questions, 'what is mankind and what is his place?'-But I challenge that this is NOT the goal of science, even less so of my cherished discipline of mathematics. An anthropologist might use math as a tool, but clearly--they have entirely different targets. Science is about building a probable model, and only religion and philosophy answer the question asked in my previous paragraph. To state more directly: Science and philosophy answer completely different problem domains, therefore they DO NOT answer the same questions. Science provides the data that philosophy then interprets.-As for not meaning to be taken linearly--no offense intended--write like it. Internet conversations require extra effort in order to preserve an author's intent and meaning. The old adage about the word 'assume' extends to cartoonish proportions when I don't have access to your facial features, tone, and inflection.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

What science does not do

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Tuesday, December 21, 2010, 06:43 (4868 days ago) @ xeno6696

In the English language there are only six basic questioning words: Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How. Any question is essentially a subcategory of one of these 6 that is being applied to a specific criterion. While each of the sciences focuses on a specific one of these questions, they are all interconnected in a completely inseparable way, each leading to the other in a never ending circle. And it is only with the application of all 6 questions that one can get a complete picture. I am not so certain why this is not obvious Xeno, nor way I trying to be misleading or offensive, but the idea that there can be more than superficial separatism between any branch of science, or even between sciences, religion, and philosophy, is, to my way of thinking, absurd. For example, if a historian says that Egyptians built the Pyramids, and left it at that, we wouldn't know anything more than what we knew a moment before. It is not until the carbon dating, the linguistic translations, the mathematical analysis, the religious and philosophical implications, the chemical/mechanical requirements for construction, and any other related questions have all been answered and AGREE that we can say that we really know anything about the Pyramids at all. (And while there is much more involved than this simplistic example, it is early, and I do not have the time nor patience this morning.)I think a much more clear example would be a historical look at exactly where the disciplines of the various sciences and philosophy had their origins, i.e. Religion. They all come from the same womb, so to speak, and they are all inextricably bound together.

What science does not do

by David Turell @, Saturday, December 18, 2010, 20:53 (4871 days ago) @ romansh

David T wrote: Science and religion both attempt to give us answers.
> 
> I too used to believe science tried to give us answers - and I suspect a great many still do.
> 
> After a few years of introspection I think science attempts to give us better descriptions, allowing us to discard false descriptions. Now some I think would still interpret this as giving us answers; if so, so be it.-Actually, I think that is a good way of putting it.

What science does not do

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Monday, December 20, 2010, 11:37 (4869 days ago) @ romansh

Perspective: Bubonic Plague was once caused by the wrath of God, the Devil, or any of hundreds of explanations. We now know the cause is bacteria. THIS is an answer.-Lightning and thunder were described as the reslt of Thor's hammer strikes and his war chariot, we know it is the difference of equipotentials and the explosion of superheated air. THIS is also an answer.-So. I fail to see where your postmodern view of science is lacking in answers...? -If you mean answers as in the meaning of man's place in the cosmos--clearly science was never intended for that so you're not really making a point. (No offense!!!)

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

What science does not do

by romansh ⌂ @, Tuesday, December 21, 2010, 02:59 (4869 days ago) @ xeno6696

Perspective: Bubonic Plague was once caused by the wrath of God, the Devil, or any of hundreds of explanations. We now know the cause is bacteria. THIS is an answer.
I think this could be a semantic quibble between us. 
The question as to what causes bubonic plague the answer is bacteria. Fair enough. But is that all there is? Certainly not. We have vectors - rodents and flees. What does the bacterium do? Presumably we have a whole pathology that describes the effect of Yersinia Pestis. Ultimately it is a description of waht happens. Now if we want to call this an answer - fair enough. But let's not claim that it is complete or that parts of it won't be retracted.-> Lightning and thunder were described as the reslt of Thor's hammer strikes and his war chariot, we know it is the difference of equipotentials and the explosion of superheated air. THIS is also an answer.
I still argue it is a description xeno. 
> So. I fail to see where your postmodern view of science is lacking in answers...? 
I'm definitely not a post modernist. Please do not be insulting ;-) 
> If you mean answers as in the meaning of man's place in the cosmos--clearly science was never intended for that so you're not really making a point. (No offense!!!)
I did not mean this particularly, but I do agree with you completely.
No offense taken. :lol:

What science does not do

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Tuesday, December 21, 2010, 04:55 (4868 days ago) @ romansh

Romansh,-So the problem for you isn't that science doesn't give you answers, its that its answers don't lead to a definitive resolution? There's no final answer?-If this is your thrust you have a fallacy in your thinking; -You make the assumption here that objective truths (or knowledge) is something that actually exists. -It does not. If for no other reason than that objective knowledge is only ever tacit knowledge for each of us. And that's not truly objective!-Since we know that objective knowledge does not exist, that only leaves us with answers that are always tentative to some degree or other. -This stated, there is no other system that will allow multiple people to arrive at the same conclusions with the same degree of accuracy as science. -Science gives us answers; the answers are always tentative, but considering that it is the BEST model for deriving and communicating knowledge as objectively as possible, we can rest assured that these answers are always the best we have. And they are answers; if our argument is in semantics here it is because I do not have a word for answer that means "end result." -You example of unraveling the broader nature of Bubonic plague is a direct example of this. When do we consider a topic settled? Only when we agree all our questions become sufficiently answered. -We can say that our studies are done when we can no longer produce fruitful questions. In my own case of lightning; there is no question today about what causes lightning. The only thing that could reopen a study of lightning would be some phenomenon that is provably electric in origin, yet unexplained by the existing theories. -So, I would amend your original statement by saying, -"I too used to believe science tried to give us objective truth."-There are answers, but there is no objective truth, only observable probabilities.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

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