The Next Big Bang: Human Consciousness & the Universe (The limitations of science)

by BBella @, Friday, February 24, 2017, 08:05 (90 days ago)

The Next Big Bang: Human Consciousness & the Universe’s Ultimate Secret

An excellent article, rather long but well worth the walk down memory lane, that takes science from where we were to where we are today and then to tomorrow's possibilities.

http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/the-next-big-bang-human-consciousness-the-unive...

Quote: "But the truth is, physics itself, that most foundational of all sciences, has now progressed far beyond that initial, dismissive assessment, to a conceptual worldview far more accepting of spirituality than ever before."

Quote: "In a very real sense, Heisenberg’s principle delivered a body blow to Newtonian physics. Because, if the precise state of the universe was impossible to measure at any given moment, then any state either before or after was also impossible to calculate. It was as simple as that."

Quote: "And there was still more damage as a result of Heisenberg’s new principle. Because, if particles could not be clearly defined in terms of their position and movement, then particles could no longer be clearly defined as material objects anymore."

Quote: "Even more importantly, if the manner by which a particle was measured (or observed) altered the resultant observation (a fact Heisenberg had demonstrated), then it followed logically that observation itself had to be a fundamental aspect of reality."

Quote: "Nick Herbert explains the next leap in logic that took place. “If we take quantum theory seriously, it seems to demand that the world before an observation is made up of pure possibility. But if everything around us is only possible not actual, then out of what solid stuff do we construct the device that will make our first observation? Either there are some physical systems whose operations unaccountably evade the quantum rules or there are nonphysical systems not made of multivalued possibility, but of single-valued actuality – systems that exist in definite states capable of interacting in an observational capacity on indefinite quantum-style matter.” Yet it was clear that all material systems consisted of particles, and that these particles always obeyed the rules of quantum mechanics (not individually, but in statistical aggregates), because these rules had been tested and verified throughout countless experiments. “On the other hand,” Herbert continues, “we are aware of at least one nonphysical system that not only can make observations but actually does so as part of its function in the world – the psychological system we call human consciousness.”

Quote: "This assertion, while sound mathematically and entirely logical, was so startling that it literally turned classical physics on its head. A science that had accepted as utterly valid a universe constructed of, and driven by, material particle movement was told suddenly that it had had it all wrong from the very beginning. And make no mistake about it, that’s exactly what was being said. “The general idea of von Neumann and his followers,” Herbert explains, “is that the material world by itself is hardly material, consisting of nothing but relentlessly unrealised vibratory possibilities. From outside this purely possible world, mind steps in to render some of these possibilities actual and to confer on the resultant phenomenal world those properties of solidity, single-valuedness, and dependability traditionally associated with matter. This kind of general explanation may be enough for philosophers, but physicists want more. They want to know exactly how it all works, in every detail.”

Comment: It seems that science is in the midst of deducing that the only constant or "definite state" is the observational capacity of the consciousness/mind.

The Next Big Bang: Human Consciousness & the Universe

by dhw, Friday, February 24, 2017, 13:12 (90 days ago) @ BBella

Quote: "This assertion, while sound mathematically and entirely logical, was so startling that it literally turned classical physics on its head. A science that had accepted as utterly valid a universe constructed of, and driven by, material particle movement was told suddenly that it had had it all wrong from the very beginning. And make no mistake about it, that’s exactly what was being said. “The general idea of von Neumann and his followers,” Herbert explains, “is that the material world by itself is hardly material, consisting of nothing but relentlessly unrealised vibratory possibilities. From outside this purely possible world, mind steps in to render some of these possibilities actual and to confer on the resultant phenomenal world those properties of solidity, single-valuedness, and dependability traditionally associated with matter. This kind of general explanation may be enough for philosophers, but physicists want more. They want to know exactly how it all works, in every detail.”

BBELLA's comment: It seems that science is in the midst of deducing that the only constant or "definite state" is the observational capacity of the consciousness/mind.

Science is supposed to require the testing of theories, so let me vary my invitation to all these theoretical dreamers: instead of stepping in front of a moving bus, I suggest they jump out of an airplane from 10,000 feet without a parachute. That may help them to find out whether it is or is not only the mind that confers material properties on the material world, though I suspect they will have to leave it to others to record the results of the test.

The Next Big Bang: Human Consciousness & the Universe

by David Turell @, Friday, February 24, 2017, 15:17 (90 days ago) @ dhw

Quote: "This assertion, while sound mathematically and entirely logical, was so startling that it literally turned classical physics on its head. A science that had accepted as utterly valid a universe constructed of, and driven by, material particle movement was told suddenly that it had had it all wrong from the very beginning. And make no mistake about it, that’s exactly what was being said. “The general idea of von Neumann and his followers,” Herbert explains, “is that the material world by itself is hardly material, consisting of nothing but relentlessly unrealised vibratory possibilities. From outside this purely possible world, mind steps in to render some of these possibilities actual and to confer on the resultant phenomenal world those properties of solidity, single-valuedness, and dependability traditionally associated with matter. This kind of general explanation may be enough for philosophers, but physicists want more. They want to know exactly how it all works, in every detail.”

BBELLA's comment: It seems that science is in the midst of deducing that the only constant or "definite state" is the observational capacity of the consciousness/mind.

dhw: Science is supposed to require the testing of theories, so let me vary my invitation to all these theoretical dreamers: instead of stepping in front of a moving bus, I suggest they jump out of an airplane from 10,000 feet without a parachute. That may help them to find out whether it is or is not only the mind that confers material properties on the material world, though I suspect they will have to leave it to others to record the results of the test.

Are you really missing BBella's point? These quantum considerations are real. No question our conscious observations affect the results. I again remind you of late choice experiments. This is at the particle/wave micro level. But I do agree with you that at the gross real world of our reality, the bus and Earth are solid. Both levels of reality are real. The issue is can we combine them in understanding how they relate?

The Next Big Bang: Human Consciousness & the Universe

by dhw, Saturday, February 25, 2017, 11:17 (89 days ago) @ David Turell

BBELLA's comment: It seems that science is in the midst of deducing that the only constant or "definite state" is the observational capacity of the consciousness/mind.

dhw: Science is supposed to require the testing of theories, so let me vary my invitation to all these theoretical dreamers: instead of stepping in front of a moving bus, I suggest they jump out of an airplane from 10,000 feet without a parachute. That may help them to find out whether it is or is not only the mind that confers material properties on the material world, though I suspect they will have to leave it to others to record the results of the test.

DAVID: Are you really missing BBella's point? These quantum considerations are real. No question our conscious observations affect the results. I again remind you of late choice experiments. This is at the particle/wave micro level. But I do agree with you that at the gross real world of our reality, the bus and Earth are solid. Both levels of reality are real. The issue is can we combine them in understanding how they relate?

Of course both levels of reality are real, but BBella has pointed out what to me seems to be the absurd conclusion these theorists are heading towards. The fact that our conscious observations affect the results of certain experiments does not in any way show that our own solid reality is less real than the so far unexplained reality of the quantum world. Call me crazy if you like, but I really and truly believe that the sun and the stars and volcanoes and oceans would continue to go their own merry way even if there were no conscious minds to observe them.

The Next Big Bang: Human Consciousness & the Universe

by David Turell @, Saturday, February 25, 2017, 14:26 (89 days ago) @ dhw


dhw: Of course both levels of reality are real, but BBella has pointed out what to me seems to be the absurd conclusion these theorists are heading towards. The fact that our conscious observations affect the results of certain experiments does not in any way show that our own solid reality is less real than the so far unexplained reality of the quantum world. Call me crazy if you like, but I really and truly believe that the sun and the stars and volcanoes and oceans would continue to go their own merry way even if there were no conscious minds to observe them.

We shall both keep our feet firmly on the solid ground and not in front of moving buses.

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