Materialism (A mad world)
Tony and I have cleared up our misunderstandings over the balance between different world views, but meanwhile he has branched out into the dysfunctionality of materialism, and so I'm again starting a new thread.-TONY: [...] a unilateral world view based solely on materialism or naturalism is dysfunctional, and [...] the evidence of that dysfunction is all around us.-You give excellent examples of how we are ruining the rain forest, destroying whole populations of animals, and even poisoning ourselves. My own particular bugbear is nuclear power, because we stand to destroy not only ourselves but also future generations of humans and other animals over a vast stretch of time. It is indeed a mad world.-What follows is not a response to your post but a rider to it. Materialism has two very different meanings, and I think it's wrong to equate them. One is greed for material wealth, and the other is the philosophical theory that matter is the only reality. We needn't argue about Dawkins (his writings make it clear that he's a humanist), but Romansh's comment that D. is not "promoting rape and pillage of the environment" is, I think, a very important one in the context of this particular discussion. There is among certain types of religious people (I'm not talking about you, Tony) a deep conviction that philosophical materialism goes hand in glove with immorality. I find this view pretty obnoxious. Humanity's greed and concomitant destruction of the world we live in has nothing to do with philosophical materialism. It has been in evidence as far back as history can go, and is deeply rooted in human nature. The sheer scale on which it operates today has everything to do with technology and ... in my view ... nothing to do with philosophy. Actually, it's always fascinating to visit the stately homes of those who made their money from slavery and other exploitative, not to say murderous industries, and admire the beautiful chapels they built for themselves. In any case, the idea that lack of belief in God leaves people free to behave immorally is absurd. As a social animal, man HAS to have morals or society cannot function. Besides, I'm sure all of us know religious people who are insensitive to the feelings of others, and non-religious people who are kindness personified. And so my plea is to keep human greed separate from philosophical explanations of life and the universe.-As for maintaining balance, I expect each of us is convinced that his/her balance is just right ... whether theist, atheist or agnostic. And since none of our current contributors are fundamentalists, we may all be right. Some people can balance perfectly on one leg, whereas others need two!
Materialism
by romansh 
, Monday, June 18, 2012, 19:53 (4322 days ago) @ dhw
dhw I have to admit this is a topic close to my heart. There is only matter (and energy as they are interchangeable). Now do we include the include the patterns that matter and energy form. Do we include the rules that matter and energy appear to follow? -So what else is there? Our nebulous consciousness?-The anti-materialists are conflating things like: science and scientists economy and economists politics and politicians theism and theists society and people-like Joseph Campbell said - If all you think about is sin then a sinner you will be.
Materialism
ROMANSH: I have to admit this is a topic close to my heart. There is only matter (and energy as they are interchangeable). Now do we include the include the patterns that matter and energy form. Do we include the rules that matter and energy appear to follow? So what else is there? Our nebulous consciousness?-Yes indeed, nebulous consciousness may be the key to those elements of life that we do not understand. Although matter is energy, that doesn't mean that energy is only matter as we know it. Supposing it can take other forms? Supposing the solid matter of the brain is only a receptacle for a different energy of the mind? For me, there is no avoiding the problem of NDEs, OBEs, and every kind of psychic experience that appears to defy material explanation. Materialists choose either to dismiss these out of hand, or to assume that eventually an explanation will be found. But since consciousness itself and its manifestations remain an unexplained mystery, I can do neither. And so nebulous consciousness is the reason why I accept that there MAY be forms of energy that are quite different from the materialized energy we know. -ROMANSH: The anti-materialists are conflating things like: science and scientists economy and economists politics and politicians theism and theists society and people like Joseph Campbell said - If all you think about is sin then a sinner you will be.-I agree. It's a constant source of misunderstandings. A "defender of the faith" would probably add to your list religion and those who practise it.
Materialism
by romansh , Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 15:01 (4320 days ago) @ dhw
Yes indeed, nebulous consciousness may be the key to those elements of life that we do not understand. Although matter is energy, that doesn't mean that energy is only matter as we know it. Supposing it can take other forms? Supposing the solid matter of the brain is only a receptacle for a different energy of the mind? -Are you suggesting there might be a form of energy that we have not discovered yet, but reacts sufficiently strongly to shape molecules which in turn shape our consciousnesses? I'll await your evidence?-> For me, there is no avoiding the problem of NDEs, OBEs, and every kind of psychic experience that appears to defy material explanation. Materialists choose either to dismiss these out of hand, or to assume that eventually an explanation will be found. But since consciousness itself and its manifestations remain an unexplained mystery, I can do neither. And so nebulous consciousness is the reason why I accept that there MAY be forms of energy that are quite different from the materialized energy we know. -NDEs OBEs etc are not a problem. Take for example our NDEs are simply a reflection of of our culture. Christian NDEs are Christian in aspect, Hindu NDEs are Hindu in aspect. The problem withe psychic phenomena is that they are nigh on impossible to observe under controlled conditions. -> My point was that we all think we have a balanced view. I doubt if anyone ... theist, atheist or agnostic ... would dispute that the world is in a mess.-This particular agnostic vehemently disagrees here. the world is not a mess. Rhetoric like our food is poisonous firmly belongs in the sky is falling camp.-I could be described as a philosophical materialist; to suggest this makes me more materialistic in a worldly hedonistic sense is pure unsupported nonsense. (I understand you are not suggesting this).
Materialism
by BBella , Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 17:43 (4320 days ago) @ romansh
[Tony]I doubt if anyone ... theist, atheist or agnostic ... would dispute that the world is in a mess. > >[romansh] This particular agnostic vehemently disagrees here. the world is not a mess.-Along with romansh, I disagree with Tony here as well. Altho the world does appear to be in a mess, I believe there is an unseen balance always taking place in the universe, which includes our world (and all that IS). As balance rights itself, the eye of man may witness what appears to be chaos, pain, unfairness, destruction, etc. But as we know things are not always what they seem. -Balance is always being maintained by the universal flux and flow. As much as we would like to believe humans have been created [or evolved] above and beyond this order, it's very unlikely. What confuses us, I believe, is our perception of time.-bb
Materialism
BBELLA: Altho the world does appear to be in a mess, I believe there is an unseen balance always taking place in the universe, which includes our world (and all that IS). As balance rights itself, the eye of man may witness what appears to be chaos, pain, unfairness, destruction, etc. But as we know things are not always what they seem. Balance is always being maintained by the universal flux and flow. As much as we would like to believe humans have been created [or evolved] above and beyond this order, it's very unlikely. What confuses us, I believe, is our perception of time.-Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here. The mess I was referring to (and I think Tony was too) is war, starvation, disease, poverty, environmental and economic disaster.. Because of our advanced technology, this is on a colossal scale, and much of it is due to human incompetence and/or greed. Far from having been created or evolved above and beyond this particular order, we are in many areas of activity its makers. But if you're thinking of the life of the universe, our struggles are of course minuscule. As Beckett says: "The light gleams an instant, then it's night once more." I think our (human) world is grossly out of balance, which is why I say it's in a mess. I also regard this life as real, and am deeply aware that it may be all we shall ever have. For people who believe in some form of eternal bliss, there may be a very different pair of scales to weigh things. -ROMANSH: I will post a link to Hans Rosling's data (aswell as his opinion) What do you think of it?-http://agnosticsinternational.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1256-I believe you've referred us to this link before, and I had the same trouble. All I get is blank rectangles plus a couple of comments. No doubt this is due to my technical incompetence, so perhaps you can guide me. As things are, I've explained above and in my earlier response the kind of mess I mean, but if Rosling has an answer you approve of, perhaps you can put it in your own words. Unfortunately, I shan't be able to respond for three or four days, as I'm off to my elder son's wedding. This, we all hope, will illustrate the less messy side of life!
Materialism
by David Turell , Thursday, June 21, 2012, 20:52 (4319 days ago) @ dhw
http://agnosticsinternational.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1256 ... > I believe you've referred us to this link before, and I had the same trouble. All I get is blank rectangles plus a couple of comments. No doubt this is due to my technical incompetence, so perhaps you can guide me. As things are, I've explained above and in my earlier response the kind of mess I mean, but if Rosling has an answer you approve of, perhaps you can put it in your own words. Unfortunately, I shan't be able to respond for three or four days, as I'm off to my elder son's wedding. This, we all hope, will illustrate the less messy side of life!-Your computer is not equipped to handle this link. The rectangles are a series of videos, which I am not going to watch. As Neil to get you the proper program for your computer.
Materialism
by romansh , Friday, June 22, 2012, 01:51 (4319 days ago) @ dhw
DHW-Try this link: it is the first of the black rectangles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo-alternatively the BBC 4 website - it's less than five minutes long. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00cgkfk-And if we google Hans Rosling + youtube we get:-http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGHP_enCA468CA468&q=hans+rosling+youtube
Materialism
by BBella , Saturday, June 23, 2012, 00:01 (4318 days ago) @ dhw
BBELLA: Altho the world does appear to be in a mess, I believe there is an unseen balance always taking place in the universe, which includes our world (and all that IS). As balance rights itself, the eye of man may witness what appears to be chaos, pain, unfairness, destruction, etc. But as we know things are not always what they seem. > Balance is always being maintained by the universal flux and flow. As much as we would like to believe humans have been created [or evolved] above and beyond this order, it's very unlikely. What confuses us, I believe, is our perception of time. > > Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here. The mess I was referring to (and I think Tony was too) is war, starvation, disease, poverty, environmental and economic disaster.. Because of our advanced technology, this is on a colossal scale, and much of it is due to human incompetence and/or greed. Far from having been created or evolved above and beyond this particular order, we are in many areas of activity its makers. -Yes, I did know the mess you and Tony were referring to is war...etc. As I said, the world (our world) does appear to the human eye to be in an unbalanced mess. ->But if you're thinking of the life of the universe, our struggles are of course minuscule. As Beckett says: "The light gleams an instant, then it's night once more." I think our (human) world is grossly out of balance, which is why I say it's in a mess. I also regard this life as real, and am deeply aware that it may be all we shall ever have. For people who believe in some form of eternal bliss, there may be a very different pair of scales to weigh things.-I too regard this life as real. Even without the belief of some form of eternal bliss, I believe the universal flux and flow, ie scales, are always finding its balance. Of course our personal/global pain and suffering causes us to care less about the scales of balance and the flux and flow, nevertheless, we can witness it universally and we humans are not outside of the balance keeping. As I said before, it is only "time" that doesn't allow us to view the universal balance taking place in all things. Yet, we can get a glimpse of it the longer records are kept and observed.
Materialism
by David Turell , Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 17:56 (4320 days ago) @ romansh
This particular agnostic vehemently disagrees here. the world is not a mess. Rhetoric like our food is poisonous firmly belongs in the sky is falling camp.-The world has certain messes. Food is not one. The alarmism over climate is one. It is just a money grab. Economics in the Western world is another. Off the gold standard and printing money to cover so-called entitlements has let politicians buy votes with political gifts to a lazy bunch of sub-human humans. What happpened the the work ethic and establishing self-worth by it.
Materialism
ROMANSH: Are you suggesting there might be a form of energy that we have not discovered yet, but reacts sufficiently strongly to shape molecules which in turn shape our consciousnesses? I'll await your evidence?-An interesting observation from an agnostic! If you do not disbelieve in God, do you think a possible God must be a known molecular structure? Even the highly respected theory concerning dark energy suggests there are forms of energy we can't identify. We don't know the source of consciousness, and until we do, I keep an open mind. Evidence? Let's move to your next comment.-ROMANSH: NDEs OBEs etc are not a problem. Take for example our NDEs are simply a reflection of of our culture. Christian NDEs are Christian in aspect, Hindu NDEs are Hindu in aspect. The problem withe psychic phenomena is that they are nigh on impossible to observe under controlled conditions. -In every NDE and OBE people remain themselves, i.e. they retain their identity, which includes their consciousness, memories, emotions, imagination, perceptions, reasoning, and of course their culture. How it's all supposed to work I have no idea, but then I have no idea how it works in the here and now, and if you can convince the world that you do know, I will personally pay your fare to Stockholm. But I'm far more interested in NDEs and OBEs that have nothing to do with culture ... those that result in the acquisition of information which could not have been acquired by any explicable means, but is corroborated by third parties. This kind of experience is not even confined to NDEs. There's a vast array of literature on the subject, and vast numbers of people have had such experiences, including some on this forum. NDEs, though, are the nearest we can get to controlled conditions, in the sense that the medical staff can attest to the patient's condition as well as the accuracy of the information. Of course materialists are sceptical, generally because they tend to wave their hands dismissively without bothering to explore the evidence. I am not sceptical, nor am I convinced ... but until there's a clear material explanation not only of these phenomena but also of how cells, chemicals and electrical processes can make matter aware of itself, and aware of being aware, able to feel emotions etc., I shall reserve judgement.-Dhw: My point was that we all think we have a balanced view. I doubt if anyone ... theist, atheist or agnostic ... would dispute that the world is in a mess. ROMANSH: This particular agnostic vehemently disagrees here. the world is not a mess. Rhetoric like our food is poisonous firmly belongs in the sky is falling camp. I could be described as a philosophical materialist; to suggest this makes me more materialistic in a worldly hedonistic sense is pure unsupported nonsense. (I understand you are not suggesting this).-I apologize for my assumption that we would all agree the world was in a mess, and as you know, I also disagree emphatically that philosophical materialism has anything to do with the mess the world is or is not in. Perhaps this is a matter of glasses half full and half empty. However, I have no doubt you are perfectly aware that poisoned food is not the focal point of this particular argument: the massive scale of world poverty, with so many countries ravaged by hunger, disease and violence, plus what Tony calls the dysfunctionality of so many societies, along with environmental damage on a vast scale and world economies in such turmoil that the numbers of the sick and poor can only multiply ... these are the mess. But you are vehement in your belief that this does not constitute a mess, and so let us peaceably agree to disagree!
Materialism
by romansh , Thursday, June 21, 2012, 03:28 (4320 days ago) @ dhw
I will post a link to Hans Rosling's data (aswell as his opinion)-What do you think of it?-http://agnosticsinternational.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1256
Materialism; psychic activity
by David Turell , Friday, July 20, 2012, 19:26 (4290 days ago) @ dhw
> ROMANSH: NDEs OBEs etc are not a problem. Take for example our NDEs are simply a reflection of of our culture. Christian NDEs are Christian in aspect, Hindu NDEs are Hindu in aspect. The problem withe psychic phenomena is that they are nigh on impossible to observe under controlled conditions.-Many famous scientists believed in the possibility of psychic phenomena:-http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2012/07/20/brilliant-scientists-are-open-minded-about-paranormal-stuff-so-why-not-you/?WT_mc_id=SA_DD_20120720
Materialism
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 01:35 (4322 days ago) @ dhw
What follows is not a response to your post but a rider to it. Materialism has two very different meanings, and I think it's wrong to equate them. One is greed for material wealth, and the other is the philosophical theory that matter is the only reality. -Here I think is another misunderstanding. I see the greed and lust for material wealth as a byproduct of the materialist philosophy. The reason I say that is because that philosophy engenders a sense of entitlement, separatism and fatalism. "If there is nothing more than this physical reality, and we are the most intelligent species, then we are able to do what ever we like, however we like, to produce the results that we desire." This does not mean that there are not materialist with morals or values any more than being a theist means you have them. It just means that that particular philosophy lends itself well to a particular type of mindset and worldview. - >There is among certain types of religious people (I'm not talking about you, Tony) a deep conviction that philosophical materialism goes hand in glove with immorality. I find this view pretty obnoxious. Humanity's greed and concomitant destruction of the world we live in has nothing to do with philosophical materialism.-See Above for my thoughts on that. - And so my plea is to keep human greed separate from philosophical explanations of life and the universe. >-Greed is a function of thought that is shaped by a persons philosophy. Unfortunately my friend, they are not separate at all. > As for maintaining balance, I expect each of us is convinced that his/her balance is just right ... whether theist, atheist or agnostic. And since none of our current contributors are fundamentalists, we may all be right. Some people can balance perfectly on one leg, whereas others need two!-Speaking for myself only, I am not convinced that my way is right, only that there is something fundamentally wrong with our current world view as a human race.
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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.