An Agnostic Manifesto (Agnosticism)

by dhw, Thursday, August 12, 2010, 22:37 (4995 days ago) @ George Jelliss

GEORGE: There are and have been many cases in science where the exact mechanisms for some phenomenon have been unknown, and where it has not been reproducible in the laboratory, but it does not require faith to think that a material explanation was there to be found. An example might be the chemistry of photosynthesis. The chemistry of life is a similar question.-An excellent observation, if I may say so, but not quite in line with the point which is in dispute. The chemistry of life is obviously material since all living things are material, and so there has to be a material explanation. The question we are discussing is whether we believe these immensely complex material mechanisms could have assembled themselves by chance, and I don't see why you should think our ignorance has no bearing on our judgement of the odds. If, for instance, scientists were to hit on the formula and were able to show that under certain conditions the necessary combination of materials would spontaneously form itself without their intervention, you would have the evidence you need. They haven't, and you don't. But you have faith that one day they will, or perhaps you don't need such evidence because your faith in chance is already rock solid.
 
GEORGE: Rosenbaum wants to know how or whether something can come from nothing. If the question was one of physics I could refer him to Stenger, who explains how material particles like fermions and bosons can emerge from "quantum fluctuations in the void". But this physical void is not I suspect what Rosenbaum means by "nothing". He is referring to a philosophical nothingness. What does he mean in saying that "something" exists? To me existence is shown by something being detectable by the human senses. It follows that "nothing", being undetectable, cannot exist.-Another misdirected observation. I did not even refer to Rosenbaum's question of why there is something rather than nothing. I quoted (and disagreed with) the passage in which he says atheists worship "the certainty that they can or will be able to explain how and why the universe came into existence". You responded: "This assumes an enormous amount. That 'universe' has a clear meaning. That 'coming into existence' means something." I did not and still do not understand why the words are so difficult for you. However, on the something/nothing topic, R. simply puts the agnostic view that no-one knows how the universe (a material "something") came into being. Some atheists believe that there was nothing before the Big Bang (I assume that's what he's referring to, and you may recall that during our discussions I too found this inconceivable) ... and he puts that "on the same superstitious plane" as Thomas Aquinas's belief that the universe was created "ex nihilo" by a Supreme Being outside of time and space. Straightforward agnostic scepticism towards both theories concerning the origin of the universe.-GEORGE: dhw claimed "that reasonable certainty cannot be attained as regards the existence or non-existence of God, since there is no consensus". It would help of course if he defined what he means by "God" here. I pointed out that in the case of specific named gods, "There is pretty general consensus that Thor and Eros don't exist except as personifications of natural forces. So why can we not also come to the same conclusions about Jehovah and Vishnu?" dhw responds that Jehovah and Vishnu exist because Jews and Hindus believe that they do. I'm afraid this is woefully insufficient to prove "existence", other than as ideas that people have.-I did not respond that Jehovah and Vishnu exist because Jews and Hindus believe that they do. I wrote: "As an atheist, you believe that Jehovah / Vishnu do not exist; Jews and Hindus believe that they do." The fact that there is no consensus confirms that "there is no such thing as reasonable certainty on the subject." In this case, the woeful insufficiency is your absurd distortion of what I wrote.
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