Natures wonders: seabirds food finding flight patterns (Introduction)

by dhw, Thursday, April 16, 2020, 11:31 (1472 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Generally you insist that all Nature’s wonders (like the weaverbird's nest) are performed by automatons obeying God’s instructions or “guidelines”, whereas I propose that these life forms have autonomous intelligence.

DAVID: This is not a sign of bird intelligence. It might well be an instinct from trial and error with loss of lots of birds from hunger. We are observing at the end of a developed process, in which God might have had a hand, indicating they always flew this way and we just discovered it, but it is not as complex an issue as multiple different weaverbird knots.

How is it possible for any organism to try things out and learn from their mistakes without knowing what they are doing (= intelligence)? Once they find a method that works, of course it will be passed on and will become the natural thing to do (a form of instinct). If God “had a hand” there would have been no trial and error, so the strategy "might well be” an instinct inherited from a process of trial and error, which means the work of autonomous intelligences.

DAVID: Your memory of my thought about these disease challenges is correct. God gave us great brains to try to solve these problems, and note we've solved most, haven't we? (dhw’s bold)

dhw: Why do you think God wants to test us?

DAVID: You want exactitude. I don't have it, but I would guess God knew viruses were part of His evolution and gave us the brains to handle it. Like the problem of evil, it is your and atheists' problem, not mine.

What do you mean by “knew they were part of his evolution”? Either he designed them or he didn’t. Which do you think it is? And do please take a guess as to why he might want to test us.

DAVID: Same demand for exactitude. God create evolution and viruses are part of His plan. Your problem, not mine.

So did he design them or not? Why are you slipping and sliding? You made an exact statement, bolded above. Why is it my problem to defend it? This is tantamount to refusing any discussion of any statement you make! Same again with the next exact statement:

DAVID: Fighting infections is a lifelong battle. T cells are beautifully designed for the
battle, but not perfectly. They can overreact and cause autoimmune diseases.

dhw: So what is your theory here? Did your God deliberately design the imperfections in order to test human ability to solve the problems with our great brains? Or are these imperfections the result of mechanisms left to organize themselves?

DAVID: Again, your problem. We know life does not work perfectly, since the constant biochemical activity is at high speed and unfortunately prone to some errors despite the tight controls generally working. Think of congenital errors in newborns.

Why my problem? You made the exact statement about your God’s intention to test us. The raison d’être of this forum, as you well know, is to discuss all the mysteries for which nobody has “exact” solutions. If you only want to make exact statements but not discuss their implications, our forum has no purpose.