Paradise (Where is it now?)

by George Jelliss , Crewe, Sunday, January 03, 2010, 19:52 (5227 days ago) @ dhw

I wrote: It's true that we can all make speculations, but what's the point if there is no evidence?-dhw responds: As usual, this depends on what you accept as evidence. For a materialist like yourself, who believes there is nothing beyond the physical world, subjective experience is not acceptable. -I'm only a materialist, i.e. a believer in the truth of chemistry, because that's what the evidence leads to. This does not exclude my being also a mystic, if evidence of such ideas is forthcoming. For instance as a student of mathematics I am attracted to the somewhat mystical properties of numbers, and some quantum theory seems to be a spooky, as someone has said. Subjective experience, that is not communicable, verifiable, reproducible, is not acceptable as evidence of reality for anyone, whether materialist or not, because it is irrational.-dhw: If you were confronted with the hundreds of thousands of people down through the ages who claim to have experienced mystic or psychic phenomena, reincarnation, spiritualism, near-death journeys into another world etc., you would remain convinced that every authenticated experience could be explained "naturally", and that the rest of the mob were deluded, mad, fraudulent, drunk or drugged. -The evidence does point that way.-dhw: You have no doubt that even though scientists are still unable to explain how globules of matter can produce consciousness, subconsciousness, memory, thought, emotion etc., eventually science will crack the code and come up with a physical explanation. -In my view science already has reasonably adequate explanations of most of these phenomena, and these are improving all the time. -dhw: Personally, I don't have a problem with this. It is absolutely right and proper that you should believe whatever you want to believe, -It is not a matter of believing what I want to believe. It is a matter of what is real. No-one can rationally claim reality for something that is based on their subjective experience. -dhw: ... and you are free to pick and choose which evidence you consider acceptable and which you do not. -If this was the case how would we ever arrive at any objective knowledge at all! -dhw: Similarly, others are free to accept subjective experience as valid ... particularly when it's their own ... while those of us who remain open-minded will continue to respect both views.-Certainly you are free to accept subjective experience as "valid" whatever that means, valid as poetry perhaps, but not as real knoweldge.

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GPJ