Explaining natural wonders: bacterial intelligence (Animals)

by dhw, Friday, May 26, 2017, 14:04 (2520 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: You've ignored my previous comment that antibiotic chemicals are rampant in nature. Bacteria survived despite them, which means bacteria have had alternative pathways from the beginning. Certainly they have them now, and they have not been shown to invent new ones. See Lenski's E. coli over 58,000 generations, in which they altered existing ones. No Lady Luck involved. I follow observed facts about bacteria.
dhw: As I said above, the potential solution already exists. Yesterday you wrote: “You are ignoring my point that the alternate pathways already exist. It is just a matter of the lucky ones switching them on.” Today: “No Lady Luck involved.” Please make up your mind.

DAVID: Not all bacteria have alternative pathways. There are individual differences. That is why I used the word lucky. I was rejecting the idea that Lady luck helped bacteria invent something that did not exist. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

There is no mention in my post of bacteria inventing something that did not exist. So we're back to some lucky bacteria unknowingly switching on the alternative pathways which God set out 3.8 billion years ago, while the rest either don't know the pathways are there, or press the wrong switch. Or maybe some bacteria are cleverer than others at finding the solutions as problems arise.

dhw: It is simply not logical that your God with his unlimited powers should have planned homo sapiens from the start, but specially designed ancestors with useless new spines in preparation for a proper spine a few million years later. I would suggest that the various modifications of existing structures (common descent) – probably triggered by environmental changes - took place as a result of a drive for improvement (which you call complexity), leading to different species of pre-humans.
DAVID: In my view, God uses an evolutionary process to advance complex life. You are assuming His unlimited powers.

Yes, we agree that evolution took place, and so if God exists he used evolution. As regards unlimited powers, I was referring to your beliefs, not mine. In our discussion on “delay” you vacillated over whether he had them or not, and then concluded he did, but you have changed your mind so often that maybe I’m mistaken. If so, my apologies.

DAVID: I am saying He didn't choose instant creation. You are saying He can. Are you now religious?

No. I am only saying it doesn’t make sense to me to assume that he specially designed ancestors with useless spines (= of no immediate advantage) in order to prepare for proper spines millions of years later. But perhaps once again you are going back to the idea that he couldn’t design the “right” spine because his powers were limited.